The Big Picture - ‘The Electric State’ Is a Netflix Nightmare. Plus, 10 (Better) Movies We Missed.

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to discuss the latest Netflix mega-budget action movie, ‘The Electric State,’ one of the worst movies of the decade so far (1:00). They discuss the state of Netflix’s influence on the movie industry and the series of disastrous movies made by the Russo brothers since they left Marvel. Then, they run through a list of other movies they’ve missed on the show, including ‘The Gorge’ (47:00), ‘Last Breath’ (56:00), ‘The Monkey’ (1:00:00), ‘Eephus’ (1:04:00), ‘Becoming Led Zeppelin’ (1:07:00), ‘Chaos: The Manson Murders’ (1:10:00), ‘Love Hurts’ (1:12:00), and ‘The Actor’ (1:13:00). Finally, Sean is joined by writer-director Mark Anthony Green to discuss the long journey to making his first feature, ‘Opus,’ starring Ayo Edeberi and John Malkovich (1:18:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Mark Anthony Green Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producers: Jack Sanders and Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you hear the word Seattle SuperSonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Shawn Kemp, The Rain Man, or Gary Payton, The Glove, or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19-year-old rookie, Kevin Duran. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy, it's theft, an iconic team with an incredible fan base that packed its bags and shipped off for Oklahoma City. From Spotify and The Ringer, I'm Jordan Ritter-Kahn, and in my podcast, Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners, and fans

about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the Book of Basketball feed, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the electric state and 10 movies that we missed. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Mark Anthony Green, the writer-director of the

new film Opus and one of my oldest friends. We talked about his long road to making his directorial debut and the inspirations for his IO debri, John Malkovich horror film, MAG, real smart, charismatic guy. I hope you will stick around for our conversation. Joining us now, Chris Ryan.

Chris, I have something to share with you. Hit me. Programming reminder for you, a listener of The Big Picture. Yeah, this week we begin 25 for 25. Do you think I already have it marked down? You do. I'm already ready.

You're holding space to listen to the first episode. I've told my wife not to speak to me for at least 24 hours after the release of this podcast. How many times will you listen to that episode? Four or five. Thank you very much. Different speeds to hear different textures. Okay. Thank you.

We've already recorded the episode. I've bought an Audi already. You're fucking influencing me. Uh, this is a roughly bimonthly series we're doing on the show through the end of the year. Okay, but bimonthly every two weeks or every other month? Well, it has two definitions. I'm glad you asked. It is going to be every two weeks.

Yeah, that makes sense. More or less, with nine months to go in the year. You have to kind of let the movie world tell you what you are and are not allowed to do, right? I'm ready to spoil for you right now what number 25 is. It's The Electric State, the new film from the Russo Brothers. Are you excited about that? Yeah, I am, honestly.

Just kidding, it's not. We'll get to the Russo's in The Electric State momentarily. Out of curiosity, are you guys opening 25 for 25 to more people than the two of you? Like, it'll just be the two of you. In fact, so we recently recorded, like, a selection committee episode. You're Nixon, by the way. Exactly.

We all know that. We recorded a selection committee episode that's gonna come out in December after the list has been revealed, but it was us, like, working through the list in real time. Like with the dock open, I believe Bobby was like recording... Is that an earthquake? I think it's construction outside. Oh, okay. All right.

Well, it's a construction and not an earthquake. Okay, I just didn't know whether I needed to... Like, what would we do in this room? Die? Go over that way. The lights would fall on our heads. This would suck to die in here. Not ideal. Really not ideal.

Okay, not an earthquake. So we made the list live. And at some point, I suggested that maybe, like, you could come in and give your commentary. And Sean was like, no, absolutely not. Okay. Nothing to find. You know, nothing against you. I watch the outlets for my opinions.

Are you guys not doing a 25 thing for the watch? Um, I don't know if Andy's seen 25 television shows. No, I'm just kidding. Uh, I think TV is harder. Uh, I've thought about this a lot when it comes to doing historical retrospectives because you just have to put so many hours up. So, like, an individual rewatch would be really fun,

but acting as if, like, we have all of Lost at our fingertips at all times is very difficult for Re-World Night. So Lioness number one. Look, I mean, that's what's freshest in my mind. And it's probably the most relevant show in the world right now. Because it's how you feel about our foreign policy. Um...

Oh, boy. Do you want me to talk to you about The Odyssey? Yes. Or are we on a clock? Like when should we do The Odyssey talk? Do you want me to talk to you about the Odyssey? Yes. Or are we on a clock? Like when should we do the Odyssey talk? Honestly, whenever you want, I'm waiting for you to schedule a like, it's the Odyssey-R time. Not like in the middle of another episode.

Here's my problem. I wanted this to be a thing. You know, I wanted Odyssey updates. And now I'm being served Odyssey updates all the time. Uh-huh. And I... Where? On Reddit? On Reddit, on Instagram, on Twitter, there's several Christopher Nolan updates, Twitter accounts that are just like,

here's a picture of the weather today. Are you following them? Yeah. OK, so you're not really being served it. It's like you got sought it out. But I served them in the first place. And then I was a weak man and I clicked follow. And so...

What is the weather in Greece? You need to reset your mentality on this. So the problem is... You need to be David Muir, you need to be Nicholas Kristoff. You need to get on the ground, you need to get your gear, and you need to record after you witness the moment. You can't be like, oh, I got served on social media. No! This is the oddest thing you are.

You want me to go to Greece? I'm not saying that implicitly. I will served on social media. No! This is the oddest you are. So you want me to go to Greece? I'm not saying that explicitly. I will come with you. I will happily stay here. Here we go. I think if you wanna do the work, you come in whenever the news breaks. All right, I missed the opportunity to talk

about Matt Damon and Jon Bernthal arriving at the airport, which was like my favorite moment of the year so far. Bernthal's hair, incredible. Did he shave his head? He shaved his head but kept the beard. Okay. Um, but yeah. And we learned who he's playing.

Who is he playing? He's playing... Telemachus, right? I don't think that's right. No. Agamemnon's Safdie, right? Agamemnon is Benny Safdie. Okay, I'm just googling Odyssey cast.

We learned Clytemnestra is Lupita Nyong'o. Maybe we should have locked this down before we started rolling. Okay. Oh, okay. Exactly. Agamemnon is Benny Safdie. Okay, I'm just Googling Odyssey cast. Maybe we should have locked this down before we started rolling. Okay. Oh, okay. Exciting. Uh, let's see. No, this is...

I really was hoping for more from the ICR. I really feel like we need... We gotta get some more prep for you. We gotta figure out what the layout is on this episode. Well, I kind of anticipated you being like, no, we have a very busy show today. We do have a very busy show, but then then I wasn't going to have to do it. But then you launched into it. I don't know.

Got a lot going on. Hold on. Cast of characters. OK, cast characters, movie. This is harder to Google than I want it to be. Also, I just like this. I have what seems like an unreliable report from comicbookmovie.com.

Are you guys OK with me spreading that info? Yeah, please. Sorry, I just clicked on the IMDb page and the writers are Homer and Christopher Nolan. So that's pretty good. That's accurate, I think. That's good shit right there. Thanks to her Christopher Nolan's great work. Tom Holland will reportedly play Odysseus' son, Telemachus.

That's right. Zendaya will be Athena. Charlize Theron as Cersei. Yeah, see? And Hathaway as Penelope. Banny Safty as Agamemnon. Lupita will be Clitamnestra? Clitamnestra. Clitamnestra. Yeah. Clitamnestra. Oh, that's exciting. Never said that out loud, but that's all we got so far. Okay. I will do more research. And again, this is not reliable. The reason why I brought this up was this movie is still 15 months away from being in

our theaters. Is it possible to overexpose a film before that? You know what I mean? Like is it should I stay away from the updates because I'm so excited about the movie? Well, that's something you've talked about in the past with not wanting to watch trailers and things like that. So this is going against I think some of your philosophy. I mean, for me, I love to hear an update about what's the past with not wanting to watch trailers and things like that. So this is going against, I think, some of your philosophy. I mean, for me, I love to hear an update about what's going on with the production.

But you don't. Because I don't think you've really enjoyed this one battle after another process. I don't think you've enjoyed the budget speculation. I don't think you want to see Vegas reactions. Do you? Don't you want that fresh PTA trailer? That's not the life I chose for myself, and I have to be okay with that, you know? I'm just trying to figure out who, um, Bernthal could be.

In the... So I'm just, you know, reading things. Your... Did you start reading The Odyssey from page one? No, but I did... I am on the Wikipedia page. I'm also kind of stuck on... I'm just tearing in Hathaway as Penelope right now. It's an inspired choice. You think it's good? I don't know whether that's...

That's exactly... I could imagine a long journey returning home to her. Okay, I... Okay, that's... Yeah. Right? She's saying that's an excellent casting, in my opinion. Okay. I'm gonna sit on that for a bit.

And... Here's what you need to do. You gotta bring more to the table than Christopher Nolan Arts and Updates X.com... You need me to do firsthand reporting. You need to do. You gotta bring more to the table than Christopher Nolan Arts and Updates X.com. You need me to do firsthand reporting. You need to do something, well, not necessarily, interpretive work. Okay.

Analysis of what we're learning. Okay, I'll do so. Next time I'll be better prepared. The Odyssey Art is an important product on this show for the next 18 months. Okay? And you don't have to wait for studio time. You know, you can just like FaceTime right in. You know? Yeah, voice notes.

Voice notes in the middle of the night. You've awoken to learn that some news has broken. Will there still be movie theaters when this movie comes out? I'm glad you brought that up. Um... Not the best weekend at the box office. No.

I'm not gonna do what you all think I'm gonna do. I don't think you will. Which is just freak out. Yeah, it's early March. I'm not gonna do that. It's fine. gonna do. I don't think you will. Which is just freak out. Yeah, it's early March. I'm not gonna do that. It's fine. It's early March. St. John's was playing. St. John's is a two seed in March madness.

I'm not gonna pretend like I've been closely watching St. John's for the last 20 years, let alone for the last three months, but as a kid who went to several games at Alumni Hall as a teenager, this is a great time for St. John's fans, and I acknowledge that. Rick Pitino, complicated figure, great coach. Does that mean anything to you? Yes. But I mean, but it's like one of the guys in suits, you know, with the hair style. Who's the other guy, Bang?

Oh, Mike Breen? Or J. Wright? Yeah, J. Wright, but also Mike. I know that Mike Breen is the other Bang guy. And then if you are really good, you get a double Bang. J. Wright retired. His replacement was just like, oh, from Villanova. But all of his children play for my New York Knicks, which is wonderful. OK, that's great. are really good, you get a double bang. J. Ray retired. His replacement was just like, go from Villanova.

But all of his children play for my New York Knicks, which is wonderful. That's great. The box office, not good. $52 million across all releases. There were five new wide releases this weekend. Nova Kane came in at number one. We'll get to that momentarily.

$8.7 million. That's very low. Yeah. For the number one film in America. The box office, here's the thing. The thing I want to talk to you about is something we mentioned when Sean Baker gave his speech at the Academy Awards and also at the DGAs, which is about the theatrical window and the sense that like, cats out of the bag fishly.

Like words out to the common person that if you don't go to the movies in the first weekend, your movie's probably coming, the movie's probably gonna be on VOD within two or three weeks. Mickey 17 being the obvious. Mickey 17 is coming to VOD, according to Warner Brothers, March 25th, that's 17 days after it was released. We talked about Black Bag on Friday on the show.

Did you see it over the weekend? I have not gotten to see it yet. Well, you'll be able to see it on VOD, probably in 10 days. Right, but I'm not gonna do that. Also, you're the problem. I had a lot of... Social obligations.

And TV work to do this weekend. Okay. All right. But, you know. Nevertheless, most movies that are not Odyssey-sized events, people are just going to wait. And that's how this is now. This is the point, is that 90% of people in America are like, I really want to see this, I just don't have time this weekend. That should be an allowable thing to happen in American society.

Part of the reason why I was... I have a month and a half to see this. Yes. So Black Bag is an interesting example of this because this is a film, I think, that is meant for older audiences. You know, by older, I mean somewhere between 35 and 100. And most of those people were not even aware of it. And they'll probably become aware of it when it hits a streaming service. And so people don't watch TV the way that they used to.

Viral marketing doesn't really apply for adult movies. It's very cool that Steven Soderbergh got $50 million to make a movie like this, but I don't even know how you could expect a movie like this to make a ton of money. Now, maybe it will be a huge hit. On VOD, Tom Quinn noted, I think on the Town podcast, that, um, Enora made eight figures in VOD, uh, profits. Uh-huh. Which is obviously best picture winner,

much buzzed about the movie, but that's still, which is obviously best picture winner, much buzzed about the movie, but that's still a lot of money. We don't have any transparency in any of that stuff, so it's hard to know what it's making up for. But I don't think as long as Hollywood is run by people who are more worried about the short term, i.e. saving their jobs, than the long term, which is preserving a certain theatrical movie going experience, I don't think this is ever gonna change.

Yeah, well you'll have your good times and bad times, right? Like you're gonna have weeks like this where, I think the disappointing part about it is Novocaine Black Bag and Mickey 17. And I say this is part of the problem because obviously I haven't gone in the movies in 10 days or whatever, but like I do watch a lot of stuff. Those are three original films,

which is the thing that we're craving. Even though you could say some of them are like, uh, a little bit derivative, they're still original stories and, and nobody showed up. Any thoughts? I mean, it does almost feel at this point, like there was a collective understanding between the studios of like, okay, we don't really have confidence in any of these movies, so we're just gonna put them all on,

on the same day and just like write it off as one big loss, you know? Because now we understand our business cycle in either, in terms of either it's the Odyssey, it's a huge event movie, or it's IP franchise, or it's something that's gonna put a lot of butts in theaters, or like this is loss leader weekend for our VOD and streaming business.

And so we're doing like the marketing now, so you'll watch it in two weeks. You're touching on something that I've been noting, which is like, you know, obviously, and we do it here, we do it at the ringer a lot, is that kind of pocket watching about how much movies cost, whether movies are in the black, whether movies is like we're disasters

or like this administration at Warner's or this administration at Disney is in trouble for the way that they've shepherded their projects. I think that they just need to do a much better job. I think the PVOD thing could start to become the like, it'll have a second life on video of our era if they did a better job communicating what you said about Enora, you know, and that this movie actually was profitable or was, it was great to have in the theaters for such a long run.

Obviously the Oscars gave it a bump, but for the most part, people were spending 20 bucks to watch it at home. And yeah, it would have been better if they had gone and seen it at a theater and seen it collectively as Sean Baker intended, and I'm sure Steven Soderbergh intended, and I'm sure Bong intended.

But if you can get to that point of like, yeah, but it did really well once people were able to just click by. I think that that would change the narrative a little bit. Or do you think that that's just like... It benefits the winners and hurts the losers. You know, the movies that didn't succeed in theaters and also don't succeed on PVOD. How do we characterize that?

Once they introduce transparency, which I don't think they ever will in this format, but once they introduce it, then you'll be like, wow, not only did this movie only make $5 million at the box office, it only made $800,000 in PVOD purchases. So if I were the studios, I wouldn't want to release that information. This like our demand for data benefits us as ostensibly journalists or at least observers of cultural information. For them, you know, it's just, it's bottom line oriented and a little bit more mystery here allows

them to kind of shift the playing field as they want. Like 17 days might ultimately go back up to 50 days or 60 days, or it could also go down to seven days. You know, like this could, this is going to evolve over time. It feels like Warner Brothers and Universal in particular have kind of settled on this two and a half week model. And, you know, by all accounts that we, that are shared with us, it worked really well for Universal on a number of movies over time.

If everyone starts doing that, I wonder what effect that has. You know, like once Sony signs up for this, once, you know, Neon and A24 sign up for this, once Disney signs up for this, that would really be the final domino in this equation. Disney, even now, they make you wait for Disney+. And like Moana 2 just went on Disney+. That came out in November.

Brave New World will be VOD before it goes to Disney Plus, right? For sure, yeah. Probably soon, too. And that movie is clawing its way to something, it seems. It's gonna get barely to 400 million, which is not good. In the context of Marvel movies, that's very low. It's not an out-and-out disaster like the Marvels was, but it's pretty bad. But you know, A24 produced Thunderbolts, so we got that going for us.

It's not a mistake to me at all that this is the weekend that The Electric State was released. And in theory, a lot of the time that people would devote to watching movies or going to a movie theater could have been spent watching this movie on Netflix. I'm the problem, it's me. Yeah. You watched it, you watched it, and I watched it. Well, I watched it because I have this job, but I guess there are people out there.

I watched it because I was on this pod and I wanted to talk about it, and I'm, you know, the Russos are my arch-nemesis. Yeah. But that two hours I would have spent at Black Bag, probably on Sunday. Yeah. This is, um, this is the latest in a long line of mega tent pole streaming only Netflix movies.

It's the latest movie from the Russos who of course made four Marvel films and are going to make the next two Avengers movies. It's not an original story. It's based on the illustrated novel, The Electric State by Simon Stalinhag. That illustrated novel was crowdfunded, which I thought was fascinating, because there couldn't be anything less crowdfunded than The Electric State, the movie.

Did everybody who crowdfunded it get a piece of the 320? Is that why it cost so much? I don't think that's how that worked. The movie stars Millie Bobby Brown, Chris Pratt, Kiwi Kwan, Jason Alexander, the voice of Woody Harrelson, the voice of Anthony Mackie, the voice of Brian Cox, the voice of Jenny Slate, Jean-Carlo Esposito, and Stanley Tucci.

Jean-Carlo Esposito playing the butcher of Schenectady. Yes. Um, your old title. Uh, the movie is about... What's it about? It's about a teenage girl... I don't want you to do this. Okay. Um, I... Because I was really paying very close attention when I watched it too. I definitely was not multitasking or watching some of it with my three year old.

Who loved it. I mean, he was like, what's that yellow robot doing? Where are they going? What are they doing now? What are they doing now? Then they've already won. Yeah. Okay.

So Millie Bobby Brown... is a teenager and... Named? No idea. And it's 1994. 1990 in the beginning of the film. Well, I'm starting... Let me do it my way. I just didn't know if you were starting before or after the robot war.

I was getting there, would you just chill out? It is 1994 and we are living in a post-civil war society, the war being between the humans and the robots. And Millie Bobby Brown is blonde now, but before the war, she had dark hair and she had a little brother. Named Chris. Oh, his name is Chris? Yeah, who she loved a lot. And-

The little guy, the little guy Chris. And I don't think their parents are around anymore. They are, they died in a car accident. And, oh, that's right, that's right, that's right. You're all over this. Because the robots didn't... She didn't lose her family to the robots. She lost her family to a car accident.

Ironically, yeah. Yeah. And so... She is now, it's 1994, and she's really blonde and wearing eyeliner, and she's pissed off. And... Then... and wearing eyeliner and she's pissed off. And then she, okay, so somehow the yellow robot finds her. She's visited by a yellow robot. The yellow robot finds her. And that robot is a representation

of her brother's favorite TV character. Oh, okay. And also turns out to be piloted or inhabited or if you want to get into robot consciousness, that's your choice, by her brother, who it turns out is alive and somewhere and is like powering the robot. And trying to lead her back to him.

Yeah. He was on... Here we go, he's in Seattle. Right. Just FYI. And so... Great note. But also, robots, because they lost the robot war,

are like illegal, but... The survivors of the robot war live in Arizona. They've been sent to the exclusion zone. Yeah, which I thought was like, you know, is references to internment camps and I just thought was wildly offensive. That is what it is. I just like, I was like, wow, this is extremely not okay. And then, so, but so they have these robots

and she needs this yellow robot in order to help her find her brother. But you know, now they're like kind of outlaws. And then somehow she joins up with Chris Pratt who has bad hair and another like robot who's much bigger. And he's like a bounty hunter like type, not a bounty hunter, but like he's... I think the question was, what is this movie about?

Not what is every plot detail of the movie? Well, together they're going to find her brother. And then meanwhile, Stanley Tucci is evil Steve Jobs and is trying to get everyone to wear his little... Neurocaster. ...helmet and live in the metaverse. Because he wants to be with his mother who made him stuffed peppers, but actually didn't. It's an idealized version of his mom.

Correct. Who was an alcoholic and a mean woman when she was sober. Okay, and so, Millie... So it's about Millie Bobby Brown trying to find her brother with the help of some illegal robots fighting against Stanley Tucci. That's what it's about. Exactly what it's about. It's one of the worst movies of the year.

It's one of the worst movies of the decade. It is hard to judge the movie in a vacuum. There are not, there are a couple of things that you could say this wasn't bad, but it being a $320 million movie that is served exclusively on the Netflix service An intended tentpole, but only at home Made by filmmakers who have mistaken their caretaker dumb for creativity

It is pretty much a fiasco. It's like derivative in many different directions. It's the Terminator meets Wally Ready player the creator meets meets Ready Player One, lots of stuff you've seen before. Really just some of the worst star acting you're ever gonna come across. I mean, both Millie Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt are terrible in this movie. They are so checked out.

They clearly are green screening. Like, they have no... Millie Bobby Brown has no idea how to act opposite these characters. She checked in. Like, you know, it's, she's a Netflix star that they're trying to, like, extend the universe. And so, and they're trying to bridge

some of her younger fans into, like, quote-unquote, more grown-up material, but this is rated PG-13. There is, I guess, like, robot violence, but, you know. But it's, anyway, could she ever do anything other than this? Like, she is doing what she was cast to do. I would, uh, I mean, if you watch Enola Holmes, which isn't good, but they've made two of those now. They're, you know, Sherlock Holmes Extended Universe

movies that Netflix makes. She's better in those movies, I'll movies. I wouldn't say she's amazing, but she's dead-eyed in this movie. I think that she wasn't my problem. Of all the things that were going on in this movie, I think that this is what happens when the Chewbacca cheat goes wide. So the Chewbacca cheat is wide. So the Chewbacca cheat is something

that I ranted about years ago. I think it's in the last of the Star Wars sequels, but maybe it's in Force Awakens, I can't actually remember. But there's this sequence in one of those movies where Chewbacca is flying away from a planet. It's in The Rise of Skywalker. And his spaceship explodes, and we, as a collective audience, and the characters in the film, are all

led to believe that Chewbacca is dead. It's very sad. Chewbacca is a beloved character. Excuse me. What? I know who Chewbacca is. I know. I'm more like podcasting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. And you are basically manipulated into thinking that Chewbacca is dead, but then you get the serotonin hit because Chewbacca's still alive. And what you realize is that, like, oh, this is what they're gonna do. They're gonna actually play on the idea that something real has happened, something emotional, something devastating,

something consequential has happened, but not really. Not really, because we could not possibly impact, like, what if we want to do Wookie World? What if we want to have Chewbacca lead this? We can't kill a Wookie and then not have him be at Star Wars Galaxy Cruise. So this movie does that basically across the board. It's like, no one is actually ever really dead.

The Civil War that you're talking about takes place between animatronic logos, like Mr. Peanut, and people who are wearing Apple vision pros and fighting with drone robot bodies. So there, I don't even know what kind of casualties there were in this war. They never actually engage in that. Not that I want this to be like an Alex Garland film, but like it is always basically creating an out for itself. And even like a moment towards the end of the film, where Chris Pratt's buddy, voiced by Anthony Mackie, you think dies.

A robot. Is immediately reborn as just the little robot inside of like the little robot inside of a big robot. And you're just like, oh, so we had 30 seconds of grief and thinking that this character might have lost his friend and now he's just got his buddy back. It's always cheating you. It is always bullshit. And it's always like, I don't even know if it really is offensive enough to get angry about.

It just makes me bummed out. I think it's because the movie is very dark and very like attempting to be James Cameron that we lose sight of the fact that if this were marketed more as a movie for kids, if this were more like The Goonies, or more like E.T., which is really ultimately what it's in the vein of, you probably wouldn't hold what you just described against it. No. No.

But because it basically is like, this is a mega IP event movie, then all of that stuff comes to the fore. And so the lack of stakes feels terrible. Like in The Goonies, we're not like, why do we kill one of The Goonies? You know, like, that wasn't, that's not how you think about a movie that's made for 11-year-olds. But this movie, because of the incredible success

the Russos have had, because of like, this long string of IP movies that we've seen from The Service Red Notice, Extraction, Six Underground, no offense to Triple Frontier, but Triple Frontier, like there's a long chain of really mediocre, mostly movies that are like this, that like are meant to be like, you used to get Predator and now you get this.

And so it hasn't supplanted the Goonies, it's supplanted mainstream action movies, I think? I, sort of, sort of. I don't, I think that, I think maybe we're taking it a little bit personally. Like, because we had to watch it. And I mean, it's like catastrophically bad. I hated it.

And I did take offense to Millie Bobby Brown. And you just like fast forwarded through Mr. Peanut, voiced by Woody Harrelson, just like as a part of the fight. You know, which is just... There's just a level of... And I guess that's supposed to be some sort of like corporate satire, but it's not, but it's just all...

I mean, this is a bigger issue if you want to get into kind of like the subtext of the film. This subtext is like absolute total garbage. It's just, it doesn't represent anything. Like it is trying to be, I think, a kind of satire? Oh, I thought it was supposed to be like an allegory about how we should be like, everybody deserves like dignity in life.

Including our robots? Yeah. I don't really, I mean, that was what the creator was as well. But then- I don't really know what that means. I want robots to be free. But then she gives a whole speech about how like,

we exchange molecules as people. So there's definitely some human supremacy like built into some of it. We just saw this in Mickey 17. In Mickey 17, the creepers are the other and you're meant to have, but they are living creatures. They're not robots and they're not Mr. Peanut or a Dr. Pepper can or Kurt Loder's disembodied

A.I. enhanced voice to make him seem 30 years younger, though not showing us his face while he reads a report from MTV News about the robot wars. Yeah. The kind of feint towards 90s culture, which is this interesting moment where... There is no feint. It's like they played Danzig once. Yeah, there's some needle drops.

The score at the end, they do like the Westworld thing, but with Wonderwall into Yoshimi. And that was when I was ready to flip my TV. There's other stuff. I mean, Jason Alexander is a faint towards that. There's a number of things that... But it's shot like an Amblin movie in the 80s, sort of. It's supposed to be like, look at the Wonder

with which they view the mall full of robots. So what I was going to say, it sucks. It really sucks. And in a lot of ways, as we were discussing at a child's birthday party yesterday, it is a concentration of everything that is wrong with current big budget studio filmmaking. Everything that we hate, including the Rooster Brothers getting out there and talking their bullshit, like

all boiled down into one horrible movie. Is it like the reason that like we still have action, you know, is it the worst thing that's ever happened in the end of civilization? I don't know, but it's really bad. No, I think because we know what the budget is and we know that that comes in theory, though not in actuality, at the expense of $10, $32 million movies or $20, $16 million movies.

You know, the whole Core Jefferson calculation. Obviously, that isn't what Netflix would do. Netflix is doing this very purposefully. They've done it over and over and over again. I forgot to mention The Grey Man, the last time the Russos did this, and they made a really awful, bastardized version. I had way more fun with The Grey Man.

I think they're both pretty dire. Yeah, but The Grey Man, like, at least had, like, a very open cynicism and dark, like, it was basically... I would argue that's worse because they wasted high-level talent. At least in this, it's like Chris Pratt is in the middle of one of the least interesting star decades in a long time. Just playing Han Solo over and over again. I think also these movies, as opposed to a big budget failure at the box office,

they hold a negative space in our cultural memory. They're either awful or we don't think about them. They don't really have fans. They have not created any other business for Netflix, which is one of the things I find most curious about this is there's no attempt. Adam Project 2. Yeah, but there's no attempt to like build a theme park

or to merchandise these things. They exist only in this closed loop of entertainment than Netflix and it is their business model so I understand it. But I think the fact that it doesn't have any other relationship in the world other than just going to this place feels so anathema to what movies are,

which is like a place for everybody to be together and have fun together. And sometimes it's in a movie theater. Sometimes it's at Disneyland. I'm not saying Disneyland is like a sacred space or anything, but it is like kind of an extension of culture that allows people to feel connected again. This is the opposite of that.

This is a neurocaster. This is the people in this movie being locked in on this giant thing that is meant to distract you from the world. We're obviously having a moment together personally about it. I appreciate that. Yeah. But it's only cause it's like gun to our head, you know, it's like, this is the biggest movie of the weekend by far.

And so we have to talk about it. And so, you know, it's been interesting watching the Russos do the press tour. They've said a number of things that are very silly. I thought it was very amusing that they pointed out the fact that Netflix shouldn't be doing this. That they shouldn't be pumping for a hundred million. Yeah, they say that as they walk out the door to go back to Marvel to make what will probably be two of the biggest movies of the century. Yes. You particularly don't like what they represent, which is interesting because they come from something that you not only cover,

but admire. Yeah. And I think that what they had to me, OK, so there's nothing personal against those guys, obviously, who gives a shit. But like, I think that what bothers me is that one thing that sort of defined them on the first 10 years of their career was a very like practical humility. Like they were very good at like figuring out like, how can we elevate whatever material we happen to be engaged with,

whether it's an episode of Community or, you know, like a Captain America movie, what have you. And then after Endgame, I think they bought into this idea that they were Spielberg and that they were going to change moviemaking and that they could basically start DreamWorks with Agbo, which is their company, and hearing them talk about like going back to Marvel with all the tools and the technological innovations that they've developed at their company when I'm like, you guys routinely put out stuff that is the

definition of slop now. Like, Citadel is the worst fucking thing I've ever seen, like, by far. And their series on Amazon. Yeah. And it's like all of these things, like there's almost this weird perverse, like, smirk about how much they cost. And you're never like, man, I can see it. I can see how you guys spent. I can see every dime on the screen.

You know, it's like, there's this weird, blindfolded participation by all the creative community that comes into these films, where they're just like, I'll fucking do the voice for Mr. Peanut, man. Like, just tell me where to sign. Like... I have a real, like, shame on you attitude about Woody and Stanley Tucci, and like, people who know way better than to do a movie like this.

Yeah. And, you know, mailing it in is mailing it in. Millie Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt are different. They're like trying to be stars than to do a movie like this. And, you know, mailing it in is mailing it in. Millie Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt are different. They're trying to be stars. This is a big star project. I kind of understand that. You know, Gene Carlos Bizzito, this is the second movie in a row this year where he showed up to be the bad guy and, like, with a nothing part

and nothing really to do. Where he basically is sitting at a table and having his face on a TV screen somewhere. Right, and possibly filmed everything way after, you know, or like from a like his closet. That's the thing about this movie is that this one didn't really feel like one of those like, oh, they didn't even have a script for this. Like this actually feels like a pretty complete story that has like a beginning

and middle and end. It's so flat. It's so like there's no dynamic range between any of the set pieces. You're never like, oh my God, can you believe it? Like this is happening. It's just like, oh yeah no dynamic range between any of the set pieces. You're never like, oh my god, can you believe it? Like, this is happening. It's just like, oh yeah, no shit. Like, there's a mall full of robots who are looking at the piece in a heart. Now we go to the deserted mall in the apocalypse story. And now all of a sudden they took a submarine to Seattle and they're going to attack the evil corporation's building.

And you're right. Like, this is almost like, would it be better not to acknowledge it at all? But I suppose the way you tied it in, which is like, it's hard not to look at the box office weekend and then assume that most people who are like, I literally have two hours, I can do one of five things. And it's like, they probably watched this. And then I think a lot of adults are people who are looking for, I would imagine they watched Adolescence, which is the number one show on Netflix and is four hours long.

So it is a really tough fight that theaters have on their hands if you put it up against this. What do you think the energy is going to be like in Vegas when we go to Cinemacon? Oh, when we go for, well, my energy is going to be... I think that will be different from the theater owners and the studios. No, it's not good, because I, like, to Chris's point about...

that I think there were many, many people, I think a majority of America who said, I don't have time to go to the theater to see a movie this weekend, and I think that they do see it, do that most weekends, and that's bad. I don't even know if I buy that they were sitting there thinking, okay, well, I have two hours and I can't make it to the theater, but instead I'm going to turn on the electric state. I think the mentality of most people is like, I definitely don't have time to go to the theater and I guess

I'll just like like, click two buttons and not pay attention to something and, like, not remember this. And this thing has that Netflix movie thing where they're constantly describing what is on the screen. So you kind of don't even have to watch because all of the dialogue is just about, like, I'm sad because my parents died.

I'm also sad because I lost a mother. You know what I mean? Like, there's never any nuance to, like, any of the drama. It's self-evident that everybody's like, I'm sad because of this. Well, I think an overlooked part of this, in particular, if we're going to make it a binary, and it's not necessarily a binary,

but let's just say for the sake of this conversation that it is, is that in people's minds, the electric state is free. That's a fixed cost that they pay every month, and they look at Netflix maybe every day. Maybe they only look at it eight times a month. But that's more than they go to the movie theater. Going to the movie theater is $40, $60, $80, $100.

Netflix firing it up at 8 p.m. after you put your kids to bed, in our case, or after you've had a long day at work, or you have a dead afternoon on a Saturday. And if you go to the movie theater, there's a guy on his phone, and if there's... and like the projection isn't great, or something... Yeah, but even the financial point is essential.

But I do also think they're not even... They think of Netflix as Netflix, and not as like, I'm going to watch a movie on Netflix. Like it's almost a different activity, like a different, you know, art form and it just kind of... Which is what they wanted. They wanted it to be that fixed ecosystem experience, not a wider experience.

And the fact that they are licensing fewer movies now, but the stuff that they do license is all of the stuff that they could basically pretend like it's a Netflix original, even though it came out from Lionsgate in 2012, and it stars Jason Statham. So it is all part of a very, as always, a very sophisticated strategy that they deploy. But when it's in the service,

especially at the highest end of the budget, in the service of something like this, I find it very, very depressing. I agree with you. So, here's the one thing I will say, and it's my hope. I think they've gone away from this largely in movies, and I know they had turnover in the executive department of that say, and it's my hope. I think they've gone away from this largely in movies,

and I know they had turnover in the executive department of that in terms of their film stuff. Yeah. They still will do things with television that nobody else would ever get the spotlight on these kinds of shows. Whether it's Ripley from last year or Adolescents from this year, I can't believe that that many people get

an opportunity to check out something so formally inventive, so beautifully acted, so beautifully written, so important, I wish that they could do that with film. You know what I mean? It's almost like if we're gonna take the poison, please give us some medicine. The thing that is missing, because they, I mean, look, this is Roma, The Irishman, Marriage Story,

like they've put out a lot of great movies over the years. But there's something wrong with the way those movies... The Killers, you know, the Knives Out movies. Like, they put out a ton of great movies. To me, it's more about shifting to being more like an old studio, which is what I want so many studios to do, which is like, have a real development team that actually develops properties,

not just with insanely powerful directors. Because for the most part, what they do is they, in the past they have recruited your Martin Scorsese's, your David Fincher's, your Jane Campions, your Alfonso Cuarón's and saying like, what's the one that nobody else will make? We'll make it for you. Which can create radical art,

but, and maybe win awards, but usually not. Yeah. But then those movies also go into the negative zone that I'm talking about. Yeah. And then they start to feel as though they don't exist. There's no physical representation of them. They don't play rep theaters.

They only exist inside this closed system. And so they don't feel as much like a contribution to the wider art form. That's not good. If they, if they change the model, which they're not going to do, but if they change the model, obviously the movies could go into the movie theaters, they could be sold physically, whatever all the things that I would want, but they would probably live on in a deeper and more true way.

In addition to that, a movie like Novacaine, I'll use this as a pivot point, to me kind of feels like what they should be doing more of. Yeah. And we saw with Rebel Ridge and Carry On last year that there's a huge audience. Matt Bellamy and Lucas Shaw talked about this a few weeks ago when they were looking at what are the most watched movies on their service.

I don't think they're going to make a lot more $300 million movies. I do think they're going to make a lot more $60 million movies or $50 million movies. In the case of Novakine, I think it costs like $18 million, which is, well, you saw it? Yes. I was one of two people in a 500-seat theater on Saturday afternoon. So, I think 500.

I, you know, did my best to count. Roughly. Yeah. You counted 500 seats. I counted 20 in my aisle, and then I started doing some multiplication. And then I stopped. Wow. Math. This is the new movie from Dan Burke and Robert Olson, who made a couple of movies that I've liked.

Villains, Significant Other, which was on Paramount Plus a couple of years ago. It stars Jack Quaid. America's Good Boy. The Nice Boy of Hollywood. This is his second genre movie of the year that he's headlining after Companion. Also stars Amber Midthunder, Rae Nicholson. I have some thoughts on Rae Nicholson. Amber Midthunder from Our Beloved Predator I have some thoughts on Ray Nicholson. Amber Midthunder from our beloved predator.

Absolutely. Um, she also appears in opus. Oh, pray. Yeah. Um, it's about an assistant bank manager who can't feel pain. Who after a bank robbery, his- Like physical pain. He can't feel physical pain.

He can feel emotional pain for sure. We see that throughout the film. Um... And after a bank robbery, his budding love interest is kidnapped, and he decides that he's gonna chase after these bank robbers and try to track her down. And because he can't feel pain, he can survive on this journey in ways that others would not be able to.

Um... When you've... I remember when you first saw this trailer, you were like, I don't know, I feel like we got too much of this stuff. You when you've, I remember when you first saw this trailer, you were like, I don't know, I feel like we got too much of this stuff. You know, like I feel like the like post John Wick. Yeah. Nobody. Yes.

I just watched love hurts. The Kiwi Kwan movie, which I thought was very bad. Maybe having seen love hurts has made me like Nova Caine more, but I kind of liked it, um, I think mostly because Jack Waite is very winning. And you basically need your star to be great for this movie to work. And I'm just on board with him, so I liked it. Me too. It is amazing, because you spend a lot of time with just him on the screen, and then you can just like,

see the Meg Ryan, like take over his body in certain moments in that very like winning way, which is just kind of fun also. See the Meg Ryan, yeah. That's a good way of putting it. Like in the interstitial moments, and it is part of that, his ability to ingratiate you to this character. You have empathy for him.

Yeah. I liked the first 45 minutes of it, you know, and then at some point it's like, what's your definition of fun? And is your definition of fun watching his, like, thumb bend 45 different ways? And like... That part was tough. Yeah, I mean, it is gross, and that is what it's supposed to be.

But, so, like, I got over it a little bit. I liked the Neppo Baby, like, square off at the end. With Ray and Jack, yeah. Um, and that's another one where you can, like, see it jump out a little bit. So it was fine. I think that you're quite right. It would have played very well at home on a Saturday night if I were sitting down and

like, I guess I want to watch a movie. I think it will when it goes to VOD. Yes. Again, I don't think that anyone consuming electric state is sitting down thinking, and now I'm going to watch like a, you know, tub of popcorn and then like it's Friday movie night. It's just kind of like... Now I'm going to watch a tub of... I hope we all get to that point where we just like stare at the popcorn.

Like, here we go. You know, I think that, as Chris said, a slop is like widget content. I think that, as Chris said, a slop is like widget content. And this feels like a fun mid-budget movie that plenty of people could watch at home happily. Who are these directors? They made the movie Significant Other with Jake Lacey. Oh yeah, of course, in the forest, right? Yeah, that was cool. Which is pretty cool. Yeah, that was a real COVID era.

They're talented. They definitely, I think the movie is very episodic in the final 45 minutes, in the forest, right? Yeah, which is pretty cool. Yeah, that was a real COVID area. They're talented. They definitely... I think the movie is very episodic in the final 45 minutes, as Amanda said, where it's just sort of like, he keeps getting himself into incredibly violent showdowns with people and they can't hurt him, which becomes iterative at a certain point. Like you said, the first 45 minutes,

I thought they were pretty adept at, like, the rom-com stuff. You know, like this burgeoning romance between Amber Mithunder, who also I rom-com stuff? Yes. You know, like, this burgeoning romance between Amber Mithunder, who also I thought was very good in this. Yeah. Good supporting cast. It was good. Like, it worked a lot. Yeah, Matt Walsh is super funny in this movie.

I know, yeah. Betty Gabriel is super funny in this movie. I thought it was better than I thought it was going to be, is ultimately where I landed on it. Also starts with a 90s kid. There's Everybody Hurts, R.E.M. playing, like, Lally's Drop, which is, like, very funny. A number of very good needle drops throughout this movie. I'm playing like loudly, which is like very funny. A number of very good needle drops throughout this movie.

They never address whether Kurt Cobain is still alive in the version of reality in an electric state. Well, let's call the Russos. You have their number, give them a call. One last thing about this, Ray Nicholson I mentioned, is Jack Nicholson's son. He's making a bid now. He's been in movies a little bit in the last five years,

but I saw another movie that he was in that's come, that I think came out this past weekend, called Borderline. You guys familiar with this movie? Small Indie, starring Samara Weaving, also set in the 90s, also set in the mid-90s. She plays a pop star, I think named Sophia, and he plays her stalker, her mentally unwell stalker.

And the movie is very much told from, it's like a, it's very King of Comedy. It's not quite funny, it's not quite scary, but it exists in that zone between those two. And he's really, really good. And you obviously are looking at Jack Nicholson's son, and he's making Jack Nicholson faces. He can't not. He can't not go crazy the way that Jack does. But in the same way with Jack Quaid, where I'm like, I don't know, man, like, being an epa-baited baby doesn't mean you're untalented.

Like, you have your parents' DNA. The essential presence, like, when it jumps out, it's like, oh, that same quality that makes, like, the way that your eyebrows go up. And you'd be like, you know, I'm leaning in. I'm charmed by you, Jack Quaid. You know, it has, it's there. Yeah, so I liked that other film with Ray,

and I thought he was a really good villain in this movie. Very pro forma, not surprising, but very good at what he was doing. Let's go back to streaming movies. Yeah. Let's talk about The Gorge. Oh, sure. Which we've overlooked.

We have. We left it. We never got to it on this show. You never got to it at all. That's okay. No, I chose to watch a different movie. So, um, Chris and I are going to attempt to share with you in the same way you shared with us the story of the Electric State, what happens in The Gorge.

Okay, great. See if we can do this as a duo, CR. Um... Okay. I mean, Miles Seller plays a soldier. I mean, I honestly could have all my loved ones dangling over a shark pit. And it's on me to remember the names of the characters in this movie, and they would just be chum.

I would not be able to save them. Same. I don't know what their names are. Miles Seller plays a soldier with PTSD, who's kind of kicking around, I think, like, the sort of Ventura Carpinteria area based on the skyline. And he gets hired by, he thinks, the CIA. Just like a really overcast kind of like... Yeah, all right, I was just gonna say, what are the identifying characteristics of that

skyline? More just that it's just like a lot of gray, like, ooh, like, you know, beach haze. You know, like the fog is rolled in. And he gets hired by Sigourney Weaver, who he believes is CIA. There's only one person in this conference room, and she's just like, I'm in the CIA. He's like, totally believing. For the record, he's a sniper. Yeah, he's a sniper, my bad. Sorry.

He's the best, the best. Okay. Except, well, he has some competition. So is he out of the game? He is out of the game. He's the best of the best. Okay. Except, well, he has some competition. So is he out of the game? He is out of the game. He's home. He's rotated back to the world. He's hanging out in Carpinteria. And he gets hired by Sigourney Weaver to do a job on a parallel track, another plot. Anya Taylor-Joy plays a Eastern European Balkan woman who's also a sniper.

Who... Is she in Carpinteria? No, she's in like Romania or Croatia or something. is a Eastern European Balkan woman who's also a sniper who... Is she in Carvanderia? No, she's in like Romania or like Croatia or something. I don't know. I can't remember. But they are both brought to this space called The Gorge. The Gorge is colloquially described as the gate to hell, which I think would have been a better movie if it had been that. Because instead it is a giant pit guarded by two towers on one side and the other.

And you're not supposed to talk to your, your, you know, sniper over on the other side. You're just supposed to keep what's in the gorge from coming out. It's just basically like, you're like the stop gap method from stopping whatever demonic presence is down there from getting out, and there are demonic presences. Oh. The reason for this I've been trying to think through, because it's actually a great setup. It's awesome. Scott Derrickson has incredible first acts.

He always, I was just gonna say that, he always sets his movies up so well, and sometimes pays them off for me, not always. But this is the director of Sinister, Dr. Strange, The Black Phone. Um... The setup is that you've got these two snipers on opposite ends, essentially on opposite ends, even of the sort of like international relations. And they have made this tacit agreement, unspoken in the shadows, that they will

protect the world from what is inside of the gorge by every, I don't know how long the cycles are, is it one year? Is it three years? However long the cycles are. Is it one year? Is it three years? However long the cycles are. Cycling in one elite sniper to shoot down whatever would be climbing up from the gorge to attempt to get into the world at large. The problem is in this case,

that these two insanely hot people have been enlisted as the snipers and they fall in love from across the way. They write on boards. They literally love actually it. And they have like nights together where fall in love from across the way. They write on boards. They literally love actually it. And they have nights together where they share wine across the way and they play music for each other. Is it like we're using binoculars? Zoom? What do we do?

Yeah, binoculars and writing on a whiteboard to be like... Because they have their scopes and everything with their rifles. And they, you know, he looks like Miles Teller and she looks like Anya Taylor-Joy. They're like, I want to fuck this sniper across the way who's from Bulgaria or whatever. OK. And...

That'd be like an awesome Joachim von Trier movie, I wanna fuck this sniper. The movie, part of the appeal of the movie is part of what works against it, which is that it's five different movies. It is an elite spy sniper movie. It is a story about young love. OK. It is eventually a video game movie,

because of course they have to go into the Gorge. Well, first they have to get together. They get together, they have a magical night together. In whose tower? In Anya's, and it's the sin. It's the original sin. It's Adam and Eve biting the apple. And it's like they take their eye off the ball, which is the Gorge. What would the international relations like parallel to this?

Well, it's good that you asked that, because we find out as it goes on that what's actually in the bottom of the gorge is not in fact the gate to hell, but rather a massive military industrial complex bio weapon experimentation zone. Yes, it's gone terribly awry. Labs and like they've just like all the people who've been down there since like World War II have basically become deformed demons. So you get down there and it's essentially... Giant spiders.

Why do they have to go down there? Uh, they... One of them falls, right? Yeah. And then the other goes down after them. To save them, yeah. When Miles Teller's... Why do they fall? Because they're just like... No, when Miles Teller is going back from his date.

He needs to return to his post. His cord gets cut. His like, little... Oh, does he like... Zip line gets cut. Zip line over? Cool. Um... You guys into ziplining? The moment all the way up until...

Neither. I think some of the dialogue's really shoddy in this movie, but the moment up until the cord snapped, I was like, I'm pretty much in on this. Like, I really want to know where this is going. As soon as they get into the gorge... I hated it. Hated it. Yeah, there's like demon soldiers with like personalities, where this is going. As soon as they get into the gorge, I hated it, hated it, hated it.

Yeah, there's like demon soldiers with like personalities and it's kind of like what sounds like what happens with Novacaine, which is a really good hour and then an hour of like kind of monotonous action. So is Sigourney Weaver ultimately not from the CIA? We find out that she is in fact not CIA. He just didn't ask for ID and she was, she's employed or runs the bioweapon company.

How would you appropriately ask for ID from the CIA? I don't know if it works with a cop, like, where you, like, you get to ask, like, are you... License and registration, please. Yeah, I think the CIA operates under subterfuge anyway. Right. So the idea of them being like, by the way, I'm CIA, you know. In any case, this is the... when we write the history books about cinema,

this will be the purest distillation of COVID era filmmaking. It's two people who are rarely in the same scene together. There's only like three other people in the movie. Most of it is VFX for the second hour. I don't know why this movie took like five years to come out. Uh... It was clearly made for the big screen, and they just... shuttled it to stream. But it was always an Apple movie. It was always an Apple movie, but Apple released Napoleon, they released Killers of the Flower Moon.

It was in this time, they're releasing F1, they're still releasing movies. Yeah. It's a big budget movie. This is a big movie. This movie has a Trent Reznor Atticus Ross score. Like, this was meant to be a mainstream movie. And I could be wrong, but my gut is that they just looked at it and they're like, this isn't good enough. We can't do the typical marketing spend against this

to put it in a movie theater. So they make it to the bottom of the bioweapons and they defeat Sigourney Weaver? They find an old, no, she's just still up there in her helicopter. But they find a Jeep that they drive up the side of a mountain or of the gorge. Like you helicopter. But they find a jeep that they drive up the side of a mountain, or of the gorge.

Like you do. Because they have a winch and they get to the top and then they set off a bunch of charges so that Sigourney Weavers come in our helicopter and the helicopter gets blown up and falls into the gorge. And then, like, it all explodes. In theory, all of the testing. Where is the gorge?

And then, they, you know, cause like they're separated sort of as they escape. Yeah. And Anya Taylor Joy gets to become a barmaid in like, like the Positano coast. And one day Miles Teller shows up and is like, I hear the rap. Okay, so it's like boring.

Yeah. At the end, yeah, that's beautiful. It's like Michael Caine in the, in Italy at the end of Dark Knight. He didn't want to bury another Batman. Yeah. Okay. Well, that sounds... This movie's not good. Yeah.

A lot of talent attached to it. Sort of. Are you with me? It would have been cool if it was Hell? 100%. It would have been cool if you were like, Hell is real? Why is this not a John Carpenter movie? Why is it like a weird Resident Evil movie?

They basically turned into Resident Evil at the end and it's not very good. I think we're casting too many hot people to do jobs that not hot people do. I think this is a movie that I think, to your point about John Carpenter, it should have been like a James Woods kind of guy should have been doing this.

Okay. You know, it should not be always like Miles Teller looking like pretty hot, but actually quite bored with the movie he's in. Which I'm a little bit nervous about for him. Yeah. He's off track. He's off track.

He had more momentum than you could possibly imagine after Maverick, and he's way off track. So what are we gonna do? I know the Eagles are not off track. I know that in theory he's doing great. He's doing great. He was on Siren Life 50. Yeah, he was at the Oscars. They lost their house in the fire. That's terrible. I wish him no ill will.

People are sending him grateful pictures. Nobody gets his back more than me and him. Yeah, nobody I know. I see so much in him. Yeah, and I just want better for him. Um, Let's talk about Last Breath quickly. Okay. You didn't see this yet, right? I didn't. Okay. Would you recommend Christine? But you're sort of, you're... So it's basically like Apollo 13 underwater. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

But without... Is this based on a true story? Yes. Have you seen the thing? The what? The documentary. No. Because it's based on like a documentary.

Yeah, so 2019 documentary, it's based on a true. 2019 documentary is based on a true story. Same director as the documentary. I knew that, but didn't know how it wound up. So I would say this was like... I mean, Apollo 13 underwater without, you know, bigger ideas or Ron Howard's budget or Tom Hanks. But I definitely was concerned. I didn't know what was gonna happen because I didn't know the rest of it.

I have not seen the documentary. And I was very concerned for the people involved at some points were like really thought I was watching a snuff film. I was like really uncomfortable, like really, really uncomfortable in the... because of this story and the way it was being filmed. But also... it... you know, it's just fine.

But... I fully agree that I felt both enormous fear for the characters, but also walked out of the movie and was like, -"Oh, that was all right." -"Yeah." Um... this is a common trend now. fear for the characters, but also walked out of the movie and was like, oh, that was all right. Yeah. This is a common trend now. The most recent example I can think of is the Jimmy Chin Chai Vossarelli movie, The Rescue,

coming out in 2018, I wanna say. And then 13 Lives, the Ron Howard movie came out four years later. That's actually pretty good. The Ron Howard movie is excellent. Unfortunately, I had seen the rescue. So there was no drama. Like I knew exactly... But we also knew what happened in Apollo 13, right?

But the problem is that the actual story of that Ty Cave rescue, the details of it, are remarkable. What they did to rescue those kids is amazing. But if you watch it completely shown in the way that... That's a great documentary too. In this case, I just hadn't seen Last Breath, the 2019 documentary that Alex Parkinson made. So like you, I didn't know where the story was going. And what actually happens to one of the men

who gets trapped defies explanation. It's just one of the craziest things that you could ever imagine happening. And you know, like you're watching a movie, so you're thinking to yourself, okay, well, like I'm watching this movie, like I have to be watching it because of one outcome, but then the movie does sort of confound that for a while, and so you're like, okay, wait, actually,

what am I watching, what is it? So there is like a level of suspense that it maintains. Absolutely. That is pretty gripping. I would say it's like top to bottom miscast, with the exception of the captain of the boat. Which is Woody Rolston? No, he's...

No, Cliff Curtis. He's awesome. I love him. Yeah. He's great. But the... Woody is kind of weird in it. He's, I mean, like, he's fine, but it's like another Mr. Peanut situation. Like that, you know, he's mostly in one little submersible.

Simu Lu. Real quick, did you, were you getting Jimmy Carter from Mr. Peanut? Sure, yeah. Okay. You know, but like- Is that who Mr. Peanut is based on? No, but he sounded like Mr. Peanut

and wasn't Jimmy Carter. He was a peanut farmer. Yeah, peanut farmer, yeah. So was he like just due to- You think it was an homage to the late president? Kind of wonder, yeah. I think that was probably recorded some years ago before Carter passed. Okay.

Carter, his policies internationally, you agreed with them? Kind of a gorge situation? Okay. How would Jimmy Carter have handled the gorge? Last Breath, soft recommend? Soft recommend, yeah. I, you know, I think they cast people who are willing to dive for, rather than people who maybe had the emotional register, but that's okay.

Before we get to the next film, I just want to address something really quickly. Okay, is this about me and you? Nope. Nobody really knows who Burnfall is playing, which is why I don't know. There's some speculation that it's Menelaus and there's some speculation that it's Mester. I did wonder if it was Menelaus. And so it's not my fault. I just, I walked myself into that corner.

I couldn't get out. I just need you to get your shit together, figure out what the Odyssey are is. Stop dive bombing these episodes with random updates. Come in with a plan. I'll support that plan. Okay. I want, there's nothing I want more than for you to be a star. A big, shining star.

Um, let's talk about The Monkey. Uh, this is the second Oz Perkins movie in eight months. There's actually another movie coming out later this year from Oz Perkins called Keeper. Uh, it also comes from Neon's based on a Stephen King story from the 80s, which I read. Um, not recently, but when I was a kid. And I remember being very upsetting and scary.

And I did not think The Monkey was very scary. And is not really trying to be. It is much more of a horror comedy. Emphasis on extravagant, gory kills. Do you know anything about the story of this movie? Do you know what it is? No, but I did recently learn that, um, Oz Perkins' great grandmother is also Scapparelli.

So that was, I didn't know that. Yeah. So there you go. I learned that from his press tour for this film. I think from direct events. Did you have Oz on for The Monkey? No, I did not. Um, I was pretty mixed on The Monkey.

I was pretty mixed on The Monkey too. It has a bunch of things that I'm not a big fan of in horror movies, both or in any filmed medium which is twins, and also... Crazy times for you right now though. Dangerous toys, I don't like. Dangerous toys? Never been a Chucky guy. Oh, interesting.

So there is a monkey of course. Sure. A toy monkey. It's a toy monkey that plays the drums. And the monkey plays the drums, I think, because Disney copyrighted... What is the other monkey? Is it the organ grinder? This guy, yeah. Yeah, the... I'm almost positive that's what happened. So in the story, that's what it is. Okay. But in is. But in this story, they had to change it to the drums.

But every time the monkey performs a sort of drum solo, knocks energy for the record. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone in the world is killed. In a spectacular fashion. And extracts... A little part of me dies every time knocks drums. So...

The kills are fucking crazy. Some of them are fun. Sure. I think it's a good testament to why kills need context. Uh, because like just pure violence or bloodshed is... It doesn't do anything. I mean, I can admire it from an aesthetic level, and there's definitely some good filmmaking in this. But if there was like some goofiness to long legs, it's that extracted and then blown up for an entire film.

This is like... Yeah, and I am a guy who... One of my favorite movies ever made is Maximum Overdrive, which is a Stephen King directed film about what would happen if trucks and machines took over the world for... Kind of the electric state of the time. Yeah. By the way, Stephen King riddled with cocaine throughout the production of this film.

But, so I don't mind like that, I don't mind funny horror, but this was like kind of like just gory for Gore's sake. And I never really got that into like the story itself of these two twin brothers who were kind of beefing from childhood and then realized they have to rely on each other. Here's the thing. This movie, just like Long Legs, the more I listened to Oz talk about it or read about the inspirations for it, the more I got it. That's not necessarily a good thing for the movie watching experience. But like Long Legs, this is very clearly a movie about processing your parents' death, and the suddenness of death, and how that feels to a person.

This movie has two very intense death sequences for parents. He also mentioned Death Becomes Her as a big inspiration. Okay. Which is... Now I'm listening. Now, I would not say it has quite the feminist energy of Death Becomes Her, but the tone and that approach, that horror comedy style. Extreme physical comedy, yeah.

Yeah. Made it make more sense to me. I really like Oz personally. I love talking with him on the show. I liked Long Legs. I'm very curious to see about Keeper. This is the third of the three movies. And I've heard it's very good.

Is Keeper not also Stephen King? Not also Stephen King, no. Amanda, I would not recommend The Monkey to you. Okay. Did you see Ifes? I did. Oh, cool. Yeah.

Okay. Great. Um, let's talk about Ifes quickly. Okay. Directed by Carson Lund. It was at the New York Film Festival last year. I think it was a can in 2024 actually. That, I think that's in the, in the Fortnite.

Um, it's about, I know Bob has seen it as well. It's about, um, basically one last it as well. It's about basically one last baseball game at another 1990 story, a small Massachusetts town that has an amateur baseball crew before the stadium's going to be demolished to build a new school. It has the structure of a game, but no real story. Um, is extremely durational game. It takes a very long time to complete, including Into the Darkness. Really much more of a character study. It is made by some of the same people who

made Christmas Eve at Miller's Point. This is very similar in terms of tone, in terms of like the episodic nature of it. I thought it was very charming. What did you think? Same. I mean, it is guys sitting around playing baseball and talking in the dugout. And it's mostly actors that, you know, you haven't seen before of a certain age. It's not like a movie star movie. It's just a very charming slice of life of these people who do something together every once in a while

and are having to say goodbye to it. Like it is a little melancholy. It is. But, you know, in the way that baseball is. people who do something together every once in a while and are having to say goodbye to it. Like it is a little melancholy. It is. But, you know, in the way that baseball is. I don't know. I like baseball. So I was torn by it.

Bob? Oh, I loved it. I thought that it was, it's one of my favorite movies of the year so far. I did get a chance to see it last year at New York Film Festival. I thought that one of my favorite parts of it was that at times in a good way, it felt like sort of a competition between the writers to see how many different baseball aphorisms they could just rip off in a row without the movie totally stalling out. And it doesn't. And then the other piece of it that I thought was amazing and captures the essence of baseball

is it's so tactile. They have all these cool interstitials between the different episodic, you know, I guess, episodes of the movie. The innings of the movie. Yeah, they literally break it down into innings and they show scorecards. It feels kind of timeless, although I think it's intended to be said in the 90s where they have these old Sports Authority water bottles. The jerseys are all varying different ages.

It just captures that kind of like liminal and endless quality that baseball can have. It's very, very dreamlike in its execution. So if you love baseball, or if you love a kind of like dreamlike descent into weirdness, I do think you will vibe with the EFIS. What's going on with the scene, this scene of the EFIS, the Christmas at Miller's Point? Like-

Another generation of independent filmmakers. I love it. Yeah. I think it's kind of like- I really liked Christmas. Post-Saf... Another generation of independent filmmakers. I love it. I think it's kind of like post Safdies New York indie guys. Carson Lund I think is just a part of that whole crew of people. Some of them are friends, some of them are not. But you know, we kind of whinge about the perilous state of independent movies. But like if you want to support independent movies, go check out EFIS. It's very good. I will support it.

A few more for you guys before we wrap up and get to MAG. I saw Becoming Led Zeppelin in IMAX. Mm-hmm. You saw it before we... It was the first part. Yeah, you invited... I invited you guys and you blew me off. You mostly invited Chris. I was like the last minute and I couldn't make it,

but it's fine. Then we got to have barbecue. And then we saw... Captain America Briefing the World saw... A terrible Marvel film. Yeah, Becoming Led Zeppelin is kind of the emotional inverse of Brave New World. Um, it's an interesting documentary. It only features interviews with the three surviving members of Led Zeppelin and significant archival from John Bonham.

I think most of it never heard before. Uh, but it's basically just a performance movie. It features, like, several long performances of Led Zeppelin. Good. And only goes through the first two records. Bad. But not terrible. I love... Led Zeppelin's perfect art, so it doesn't matter to me, but I am a physical graffiti guy and four.

I was wondering if this was an attempt to make a second film, a third film maybe even, like I could see them trying to stretch it out. I would be all about that extended universe. Bernard McMahon directed it. This is a major sensory experience. There's a couple of performances. There's one in Sweden.

There's one in England, their first big English performance when they return home from America, where they're just playing Dazed and Confused at length, you know, like eight minute version. Incredibly overwhelming and powerful in IMAX. At home, I don't know if it'll have quite the same effect, but still very cool to see them. Your young son, for example. I'm really excited. I mean, I did Google Showtimes,

and then I was like, I can't. When your kid discovers John Bonham, it's over. Yeah. I know. I'm like, I have showed him... What is the Zeppelin,elin like weird film with the elves? Is that what the song is? The song is the same.

Yeah, Zach showed him that and I showed him the Lincoln Center tribute where Hart plays. And then John Bonham's son is drumming. So he's like kind of aware, but I think this is the next step. I just think we have to do it at home. Yeah, it was really fucking loud. And frankly, I was the youngest person in the theater by far.

Like so many gray hairs in there rocking out to Zeppelin, but they were having a ball. It's just a very pro forma doc, but it's a great music experience. And in a way, I would rather this sort of thing just replace the Bohemian Rhapsody of the world. Like, don't pretend to tell me how the story was. Yeah, just do Queen at Live Aid and remaster it. Exactly. Just show us that performance. I did enjoy what Jimmy Page had to say, and I learned a lot specifically about where he started as a session musician and working on Bond themes

and how he kind of made his way while also joining the R-Birds and becoming a great musician. Robert Plant was like, then you just throw it against the wall, mate, and then it's over here, and then you just grab it over there, and then you just put it... Like, he had nothing of substance to say the entire film, but I still enjoyed looking at him. He now looks like a J.R.R. Tolkien character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But solid movie a

Couple of disappointing movies. It breaks my heart to say that the new arrow Morris document I checked it out. I checked it out and I was I thought it was pretty pretty flat pretty flat. Yeah It's called chaos the Manson murders. It's based on this remarkable Tom O'Neill book about the synchronicity between the Manson murders and several secretive government operations? You a Manson guy? I'm a... In a couple different ways, no.

But in like, of the 60s conspiracies, of the 60s sort of like... Uh... No, I'm like not there. I mean, I have listened to the, you must remember this season, like I had like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood as much as the next person, you know. I know the basics, but no, I haven't gotten deep.

This book, this O'Neill book is really fascinating. It's a little bit harebrained at times, trying to draw all of these connections, the things that may or may not ultimately be connected. He has a lot of source material and he's like- Charlie Day at the cork board vibes. Very much, but it's written with such momentum that it's hard to not get caught up in it.

And I usually feel like Harold Morris is the absolute best at being like, you've got a lot of crazy theories. Let me bring them all together. This just felt like over-reliance on certain kind of like archival, like zoom in photograph style. Weirdly not enough Tom O'Neill. I kind of wanted him to just be like the full blown narrator of the thing.

And I maybe just know a little bit too much about this. There you go. That sometimes happens with documentaries. That's how I kind of felt a little bit. If you've watched the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary, there was another Vietnam documentary on Apple. I was kind of like, this is just like I feel like I'm swimming with water wings on here. Yeah, agreed. I mentioned Love Hurts. Uh, terrible. Yeah. Yeah, terrible.

It made Novacaine feel a lot better. No offense to Kiwi Kwon. Kiwi and who's the other person? Mariana DeBose. Oh, yeah. Two Oscar winners together. Marshall Lynch, isn't it? Super Bowl champion. Also looks like it was shot on the Good Place set, right?

Yes. Well, in fairness to it, it's about real estate agents selling prefab community houses. Okay. So that kind of like fakeness that comes with it, I guess, is justified. It feels like that's just like a screenwriting hack to get a movie made cheaper, though. You know, directed by a former stuntman, I usually love movies like that.

This one didn't hit. It was a no. It's a big no. It's also 83 minutes. Oh. Well. Which I thought was fascinating. Doesn't make it good't hit. It's a big no. It's also 83 minutes. Well, Jethro's fascinating. Doesn't make it good. Yeah. It exists. Another kind of disappointment, The Actor, which is a movie that just opened in theaters starring Andre Holland as an actor in New York who is struck in the head after sleeping

with some man's wife and then wakes up and finds himself in a small town in Ohio and he can't figure out what happened. Great premise. Thrilling setup. Yeah. Based on a Donald Westlake story called Memory from 1960. And was there originally gonna start Gosling? I believe Gosling, and somebody else was,

I don't know if Duke Johnson was always attached, Duke Johnson who worked on Anomalisa with Charlie Kaufman. And yeah, I think there's like a filmmaking style choice that's meant to make it feel like you're in a dream the whole time that I found incredibly distancing and hard to connect with. So I had high hopes for this movie and maybe even thought about like drafting it

at an auction once upon a time because it's been tabbed for a long time and it kind of just came and went. That's pretty much it. The great work continues, you know? We'll keep getting into the batter's box and Hollywood will keep pitching us. That's so beautiful. Yeah. It's what, two weeks to baseball season?

Yeah, it's almost here. I'm so excited. Not a great spring for the Phillies. Not a great spring? Yeah. It's more about the summer, but honestly, it's more about October. What happened last October? Yeah, I forgot how to hit.

Who you rooting for this year? I think we got to do Phillies again. Okay. Yeah. I was worried you were going to say Dodgers. I was worried you were going to... No, I mean, I do want to, I want to go, I'm going to take Knox to Dodger Stadium. I hope I can be a part of that. I have, I've identified some possible times.

We got to do the 4.30 PM, you know, the, the sweets at the post-nap, pre-bedtime. How close to the field do you want to be? Well, I don't know. If money was no object. Well, I think he would probably be a little scared of the foul. And I still get scared of the foul ball. So, you know, and then once he's there... If you get close, you have the net.

Did Bill say recently that he thinks the nets are bad for baseball? He did say that. He sure did. All right. Yeah, he did. Did that resonate in your community, Bob? It sure did. Yeah. I was like, that's a very specific thing to be the one thing that was the domino

that crushed major league baseball. But maybe he has some data that I don't know about. Yes. I think there's a few other reasons. I'm very excited for the baseball season. Clay Holmes season, as I'm calling it. Future Cy Young winner, Clay Holmes. Have you heard of him?

I assume he's a Met. He's a Met. He's a converted reliever that they're attempting to stretch out to become a starter. He had a promising spring. Griffin Canning, he had a promising spring. He struck out nine batters today. Is that right, Bob? Seven. Seven, shit. You know, injury bug has struck the mess, but I think we're going to power through. Marshmallow St. John's, what are you cheering for?

I only learned that it was starting this morning. So, like, what are the number ones? I still want to see SEC teams. I think the Vols are probably in there. I believe there are 12 SEC teams. See, like, on the one hand... 14. My goodness. You know, when I was an active member of the SEC fan community,

we didn't really do basketball. What did you do, run message boards? What did you do? So, I had a little cheerleading suit that I wore. Did you? Yeah. Did you have a cheerleading face? No, no, I just had this little... I was like four.

But did you wear a suit, like a cheerleading outfit? Yeah, it was like a Tennessee Vols. I don't know, someone got it for me this little, I was like four. But did you wear a suit, like a cheerleading outfit? Yeah, it was like a Tennessee Vols. I don't know, someone got it for me. Listen, what do you want? I was four, okay? When the electric state happens, we're going to get that online. Yeah.

Um, but basketball wasn't really a going concern in the same way the SEC hadn't really spread its tentacles. And now I know it's just like taken over, cleared its boards. And I think there are probably some, uh, some things we should investigate there. Uh, but you know, but so that's fine. Human rights violations. But I don't really care about the SEC basketball. Who are you rooting for?

Uh, typically I root for Kentucky because I would always cheer for John Calipari's team. He now coaches at Arkansas. They're both in the tournament. So I think I might split it. Not, not sure for either and go for Oregon because I, I love their campus. The ducks. Yeah. Okay. Very cool.

What seed is Oregon this year? I think they're like a five seed. Okay. It's very exciting. Um, I will be rooting very hard for St. John's. I fear tremendous heartbreak is imminent, but nevertheless, I'm very excited for them. I'm also very excited to now share my conversation

with Mark Anthony Green. Let's go there right now. ["The New York Times"] Mark Anthony Green is here, the writer and director of his debut feature film Opus. He also happens to be one of my oldest friends. Yeah. Somebody I've known for 15 years.

How did we, what was the first meeting? Do you remember? What happened? I don't remember the first meeting. I remember the day that I realized you were a G. Okay. Which is I pissed off Jay-Z. Mm-Z. And long story short, I was, Sean ran GQ's website and I had written this story that this human being whose name I

won't say, Jamil Spencer, who ran Rock Aware for Jay-Z and long story short he came to me and was like I want you to write this story about Jay-Z buying BBC from Pharrell and I'm like great We did all the fact-checking went back and forth with them publish the story and All hell broke loose Jay-Z turned this is all according to people but Jay-Z turned his plane around mid-flight, as you can do with a private jet. And Will Welsh was getting calls from Jana Fleischman,

who was Jay-Z's publicist, I think still is. And I had only been at GQ for like a month, and I thought I lost my job. And Jay-Z's fifth tweet, he had four tweets under his belt. Total. Total. Yeah. And they were all like, you know, I have an album on the way and that was it for the whole rollout for Magna Cardum Holy Grail, like whatever the albums were. And his fifth tweet was, I am partnering with Pharrell, not buying his company, like GQ

erroneously printed. And I saw my life and job flash before my eyes. But then Sean was like, send me every email. Saw all my work, saw that everything had been checked and da da da. And then you went to war and it was tight. So you've been my boy ever since. I appreciate that. I don't even really remember what I did,

but I did know some people in Jay-Z's orbit at that time. So if I helped, I did the best that I could. Yes, you did that. You were like, hey, if this is on somebody, it's not on this 22-year-old who did his job. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that time when we worked together, which was ultimately only like less than 18 months, but we bonded pretty quickly. And we definitely talked about movies in that time, but I don't think we ever had the conversation like,

yo, I want to be a filmmaker one day. Really? I don't think so. I was trying to think back to it, because I was obviously, you know, knowing me back then, I was even really movie crazy, even though that wasn't my beat at the time. Yeah.

So go to the beginning. Like, when did you know you wanted to do it? You know, what were the signal moments in your youth where you were watching movies and felt transported? Man, I can remember two young experiences. One was watching Batman where Michelle Pfeiffer straddles Batman in a theater and I had my first crush. I was like... I think that was true of a lot of people back then. Yeah, yeah. And I was born in 88 so I was like very young but it's like man movies. And

then when I watched The Fifth Element in a theater, which I stand by, also I'm a diehard listener. The year the fifth element came out, it went undrafted in a draft. The 97? 97, sure. Okay. Whatever it is, it was egregious.

And the fact that none of y'all drafted it. And so I've shown up. I might be the only director to show up at this show, but, you know. You're saying you want to get you want to redraft? 1997 you know Yeah What I just couldn't believe it went undrafted what what an incredible film yep You have John Paul Gaultier

Some of the best costume design ever. Mm-hmm. You have Jean-Paul Gaultier, some of the best costume design ever. You have Chris Tucker, like, throwing 2,000 miles an hour in a Unitar, flirting with stewardesses that they casted as all mixed women with freckles and bobs. Yeah. I don't know what more you could want from a film. The very small gap in age that we have though I think explains a lot. Because I was 15 when this came out and you were 9. Yeah, you had seen like Die Hard and all the movies that I understand. For me, that was the first time I ever seen Bruce Willis.

Oh, interesting. That's a weird way to get introduced to him. I know. It's a cool movie. I have nothing against that movie. But that's kind of the amazing thing about depending on how old you are, your relationship with a thing, because everything, like Die Hard, coming after that, and everybody being like, this movie. I've read some reviews from that time of that film, because I'm like, this was a masterpiece.

Oh, people were tough on it. People were tough on it. Yeah. But if I watched all the movies before it, I probably wouldn't, it wouldn't have blown my hair back. But that movie made me want to make movies. Like I left the theater as a kid being like, I want to make movies. I didn't know you could do that. So you spent a lot of time in your career before making movies in the world of style.

Like you meant you're already name drop Jean Paul Gaultier on this show. I didn't name drop him. I said his name. There's a difference. You used his name. Name drop would be like, yo, I hang out with Sean Finnessy. That's a name drop. Saying I'm a fan of somebody's, I've never met that man.

That's not a name drop. I just, I got to keep it honest on this. I'm surprised that's a person you haven't met though. Just given- I have met Jean-Paul Gaultier. I'm saying I don't know him. That's not my man. I can't call him like I can call you.

But you know, yeah, yeah, I have met y'all. That is a wonderful thing about knowing you is that I'm not surprised to learn that you know Sean Paul Gaultier. Anyway. I worked at a fashion magazine forever. I've been a fashion week or two. When you were thinking about trying to become a creative person, like you ended up at a magazine and you spent a long time at GQ. Yeah. All that time, obviously it appears that you were plotting, scheming, creating in your mind behind the scenes trying to get things going.

But did you see like the world of journalism and magazines as like a portal to that? Was it a, how did you? No, I, you know what it was for me? There are like four phases before I got here. There's Morehouse. I graduated from Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, and Morehouse taught me the type of man I wanted to be. Which was what?

The man you see today, somebody that is honest, that has integrity, that does things with style, that's not afraid, that has ambition, that does things with style, that's not afraid, that has ambition, that cares deeply about his friends and family, overly sensitive, will raise his voice, will stand on a table, way more bark than bite, but I don't really bark that much. You know what I mean? I always smell good. That I can attest to.

Yeah, like, you know, just just like I think. They teach that at Morehouse? They did not teach that at Ithaca College. Yeah, it's a different experience. Yeah. I will say like we were not, I was not in like a classroom learning. I was learning everything outside of classroom. And then I worked at this clothing store, Sid Mashburn, and that's the first time I ever saw somebody do something at 100%. And it rocked my world. Should just briefly explain to the listeners who Sid is and what that experience is. He's a designer in Atlanta, and I worked for him for free so that he would introduce me to somebody at GQ.

So he like created an internship program. And, um, but he just, this was his dream. He worked at Ralph Lauren and LL Bean and all these places. And it was the first time I ever saw somebody have a dream and chase it with a hundred percent like a madman. And that opened up something for me. And then GQ was, to me, it taught me about both storytelling and taste and what my taste really was and the mix of things.

Like if you look at Opus as a film, there's so much humor in the movie. But I think that the balance, like to me it feels very balanced. And I don't know that I'm capable or want to make something that doesn't have that type of humor in it or a seriousness or like take on something Important and there's like a mix like I think GQ taught me

the value of the mix In addition to a lot of other things so I carry that with me, but I Don't know I just your question of you know, but I don't know. I just, your question of, you know, did I always see that this is what I wanted to do? Yeah, since I was a kid. But I don't think that like being a magazine writer, editor into filmmaker, that didn't,

I didn't look at that as like a path. It's interesting because there is a pretty long tradition of that path. Really? Yeah. You know, you have critics like Peter Bogdanovich or Paul Schroeder who are basically just working critics, writing scripts, getting in the good graces of filmmakers, getting opportunities. And then you also have like folks like Robert Benton who wrote Bonnie and Clyde, who is like an editor at Esquire.

Oh, I didn't know that. And he wrote the original Bonnie and Clyde. The original, yeah, the 60s version. This is that Sean Financie shit. This is what we're here for. I tend to think- No, no, stop Sean. This is ladies and gentlemen of the big picture.

This is why the fuck we show up show up for him to do this nerdy shit right here this is it's happening making connections real time it's beautiful I'm putting you in a continuum I had no idea I know that writer magazine writer editor voices and I totally relate to what you're describing that the mix the balance in building the book as we call it yeah is a is an aspect has a relationship to making a movie. You got department heads in magazines, you got department heads on your movie.

You got tone in your movie, you got tone in your issue or tone in the story that you're working on. You got photography, you got all these different component parts. And I thought about this a lot when I was watching your movie, which I'm so, I'm just so proud of you for accomplishing, but I'm especially like touched by it because the movie is about a print magazine journalist. Yeah. And it's a very wry and sly about that and what it's like to be one of those

people, which is kind of a dying breed as a gig. Yeah. So tell me how like it informed the actual story itself, the actual like writing of Opus, the character that Ayo plays. I look at it like this. Well, first of all, now that Opus is in the world, it's not my place to tell people how to Opus. So like if this film to you is about, not you saying this,

but if it's about journalism, then that's not, you know. My read on it and my intention on it, it's... Opus is no more about journalism than it is... than, you know, White Man Can't Jump is about basketball. The basketball in White Man Can't Jump, as far as like street basketball, in LA, the, you know, the deferred dream of it all, they knocked it out the part. It's accurate. And I think the journalism, that power dynamic, what it's like, what it looks like, what it

smells like, the texture of it is very accurate because I lived that life for 13 years. And so that to me is like outside of making that aspect of it accurate, the thing that it tackles, I don't have a front row seat to. I think the thing that I tackle we all are experiencing, which is tribalism and what I consider to be a global pandemic of, you know, tribalism, this thing that has gone too far in my opinion. So yeah, so I don't know. I just wanted it to feel accurate. I felt like when I was working at GQ and even in some respects at Grandland and the Ringer, there's a part of the work that is trying to identify what is going to be next and cool.

And then there's a part of the work that is trying to figure out like, what is you? What is us? Yeah. Once you've determined what is cool. Yeah. And so I feel like what I really like about Io's character in the movie is like, she has, seems to have like a real skepticism about the whole enterprise. Yeah.

And I tend to find that like really good magazine editors, really good magazine writers are like really enthusiastic, but also like, this is kind of bullshit. Yeah. About the whole enterprise. Yeah. And I tend to find that like really good magazine editors, really good magazine writers are like really enthusiastic, but also like this is kind of bullshit. Yeah. Especially when you're the youngest in the room. And when you and I worked together, I was the youngest in the room. And then I stayed to where I was like, you know, ancient. But I was the youngest in the room. So there were things that just excited people in that room that meant nothing to me.

You know, like a story I've told is, I didn't know who Bruce Springsteen was when I first got to GQ. And we were in an ideas meeting and it's like the first cover meeting and everyone's freaking out about Bruce Springsteen. I'd never heard the man's name. Now I'm 36, 37 year old, I just turned 37.

37 year old black kid from the Midwest who went to HBCU. I didn't grow up in a house where we were listening to Bruce Springsteen. I didn't date girls that listened to Bruce Springsteen. I just never, he just never came across my desk, you know? So yeah, so like, you know, everybody being like, this is the cover that's going to change the world. And then there's one person in a room that's like, you know, everybody being like, this is the cover that's going to change the world, and then there's one person in a room that's

like, I've never heard of them. I didn't say that. I didn't have the juice. That would take balls, yeah. Yeah, I had to juice this to let them know I do nothing about nothing. But yeah, I think that there's real power in being the youngest person in a room. I think there's real power in being the person that is not intoxicated by whoever. And especially as a journalist, I think that you are able to genuinely maintain a level of objectivity. You know, like I listened to Bruce Springsteen that day and I was like I get it. Mm-hmm You know you didn't turn yourself over to him though. This isn't Andre 3000. You know what I'm saying? This isn't I wouldn't even say this is like fabulous like but but

Sean I can't hear the pot. Yeah, I told you I'd give you my best and I'm just saying like, you know I listen to them. Are you auditioning now for music podcast? No, no, trust me. No, I will be I'll be back on set. But look I I get it, you know um, it was is the thing I told this story to To John and to the crew because I felt like that was the challenge with Moretti I went will I went from that ideas meeting to the next meeting, and I asked Will Welch, I was like, who is Bruce Springsteen?

And he looked at me and was like, Jesus Christ, who's this human I hired? But he had like 30 seconds to contextualize this person for me. And I felt like that's what we had. We had a very short amount of time to show you how big this pop star was. For you to believe that he exists amongst, you know, Prince and Alice Cooper and David Bowie. And he's in, you know, Elton John.

And he's in this zone. You just haven't heard of him. Right. You know? And, but I need you to get it. And I got it. He may not be fabulous to you, but I get it. And of him. Right. You know, and, but I need you to get it. And I got it. He may not be fabulous to you, but I get it. And so that was it.

Cause you know, you get very little time to, for the exposition part of it. So, yeah. I am very curious to hear the story of John Malkovich being a part of this movie. I'll give you an honest take with no disrespect to Malkovich, who is a legend. Yeah. Hit or miss in the last 20 years for me.

Oh, a hundred percent. Iconic actor. Yeah. Obviously his resume speaks for itself. Yeah. But you never know what you're going to get these days. And I think he's on his like A plus game in your movie. Thank you.

And so maybe you can tell me how you got him to buy into the same spiel that Will helped you explain in 30 seconds on Hooper's Spring Scene is. Yeah. Yeah. I think that this is One of John's best performances in his career, and I'm honored by that. I'm a huge fan of his But yeah, I think I think he would say that's fair There was a funny moment when, you know, there was an interview that I'm sure you saw, it went viral, and it's Matt Damon, and he's talking about John Malkovich

showing up to the set of Rounders. And we shot Opus in 19 days. And so I'm now at the point of planning where all of your financial issues, they're put on your plate as a director and they're like, cool, you need to go figure this out. So I'm looking at the schedule that it's looking like we're going to land on and the lack of money that we have. And this interview with Matt Damon goes viral where he talks about John just showing up

and deciding that the character was Russian. And so they had to go back and change, but Teddy KGB was just like Theodore from like, you know, wherever. Yeah, Bensonhurst. Yeah, yeah, and he showed up and I'm like mommy and does the whole thing. And I'm like, he can't do that with 19 days.

Like I'll never, we will, it'll just, we won't finish this movie. And I love to plan and I love to rehearse. And I think that it gives everyone, all artists involved in a film, the freedom to try something when everything else is where it's supposed to be. So I call his agent, I puff my chest out,

and I'm like, yo, I need to see John right now. I'm coming, I'm gonna come see him this week. Tell me where he is, but I'm on my way to see him. If he's shooting, you know, he's gotta make time. We gotta go to dinner, but I gotta see him this week, right? Hang up. So his agent, who I love, shout out to Brent, he calls me back and he's like,

so John's in Riga, Latvia and he says sure you can come but you know let me know if you want this to be an email. And so chest already puffed, can't unpuff it. So I'm like no no no tell him I'm on my way to Riga, hang up. I Google Riga, Latvia, had never heard of it. Not quite fabulous either, you know what I'm on my way to Riga. Hang up. I Google Riga Latvia. Had never heard of it. Not quite fabulous either. You know what I'm saying? And at this time, I don't know, you know, but the the the war with Russia and the Ukraine is like it's like two months in and it is extremely dangerous.

A little geographical fact for the folks at home, Russia used to own the Ukraine, I mean, used to own Latvia, and Riga is kind of a sensitive spot between the two. So when I go, I go to London first, because there was an actor for a different role that I wanted to see in a play. And my flight from London to Riga, I was the only person on the plane. I had never experienced that before.

Like I got on, they closed the door behind me. It's like, Jesus Christ. This was just a commercial flight. This was just a commercial flight. But no one's going to the war zone. And so I got off the plane. There was a building that looked like it was from the last war and they hadn't cleaned up yet.

Like it just, it was like blown up and they just left it. My hotel was $115 a night, it's the nicest hotel in Riga. And so cool, you know, let's do it. And everyone's staring at me. So I go and I go to meet John for dinner and I see him in the restaurant and he's wearing an eye patch. I don't know if y'all have seen John in my film, but he does not have an eye patch.

Spoiler alert. And so I sit down with him and he's like, hey, I'm like, hey, what's up with the eye patch? And he's like, oh, you know, I had had emergency surgery on my left eye and they say it's 50-50 if I get my vision back. And my right eye only has 20% of the vision. Never been a good math student, but I'm like, okay,

so you have 10% of your total vision right now. And he's in Latvia directing a play and doesn't speak Latvian. I swear I'm not making any of this up. Yeah. And in fact, I'll give y'all a photo to put up. And so then he looks at me and he says, why the fuck are you here?

And you know, he says it and it's Malkovalian, you know what I'm saying? And he's a Mac, whatever, however you do it. Malkovichian? Yeah, Malkovalian, you know what I'm saying? And he's a Mac, whatever, however you do it. Malkovichian? Yeah, Malkovichian. And so I'm like, I need you to see how serious I am and to know you're not gonna fuck up my movie. And silent.

And he starts dying laughing. He orders a bottle of wine. He didn't know I didn't drink at the time. So, you know, he didn't share the bottle. And we stayed up that whole night. The restaurant was really kind and let us just sit there. And, you know, we basically talked until the sun came up about everything. He's from the Midwest, loves basketball.

I grew up playing ball, but also talked about the character, why this movie was important to me, what I expected from him, that I expected him to bring it every day. And then I went to rehearsal with him the next day to see him direct these people in a language he doesn't speak, with 10% of his vision. And dare I say, he was making choices and demanding things, and I think the play was getting better.

So, you know, John Malkovich. and demanding things, and I think the play was getting better. Mm-hmm. So, you know, John Malkovich, and we had dinner that night, and ever since that moment, he brought an intensity to set, to rehearsal. He was the best creative partner that I could have had on this. I think Moretti could have been very silly. Maybe even stupid. Yes. Yes. If not executed correctly, maybe.

It's a really tough, and like one of the mantras that I had on set with everyone is that this film is not camp. Mm-hmm. Now if you watch this film and you're like, this was campy to me, that's totally fine. I'm not, again, I'm not gonna tell you how to opus, but I think if you start out that way, you could never get to someplace believable.

If you set out that like we have no intention on this feeling real or possible. And again, I watch him in this film. He is so fucking good and fearless and weird and interesting. And he's falling on the floor. And the man's 70. He's 70 when we shot. He's 71 now. It's a very physical performance for me.

Very physical. And he would stretch constantly. Like he had to physically get it up for this to get there. But after that day in Riga, that wonderful night in Riga, shout out to Latvia. We open in Latvia today, by the way. Really? Yeah, shout out to all the Latvians.

Is there a strong movie theater going culture there? I have no idea. Do we have Latv theater going culture there? I have no idea. Do we have Latvian listeners out there? Yeah, shout out to all the big pick, the Latvian. Yeah, they're probably all like CR guys, you know, just a lot of CR heads. I think especially on that block. Yeah, that's his energy.

That's where they're really, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, man, it was working with him, again, one of the biggest honors of my 37 years so far. So you and I went out a few years ago, might've been pre-pandemic, I can't remember, and you were wearing Ichi the Killer t-shirt. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck? Yeah.

And I knew you liked movies and you'd been listening to the show, you sent me nice notes about the show. We talked movies, I'm sure 15 years ago we were talking about movies, but I was like, I didn't know you were about that. And I clocked that and put it in the back of my head. And then I saw the movie and I was like, oh! Yeah, Takashi Miki is like, an all-timer for me.

Obviously a huge thing for you. And I think if you like bring that, maybe if you just carry that knowledge to going to see the movie, I actually think it opens the movie up in some ways. Yes, especially tonally to see the movie. I actually think it opens the movie up in some ways. Yes, especially tonally. Yeah. And the pacing. But there's kind of like a sick sense of humor. Yes.

And also something very upsetting at its core. Yeah. Which, you know, as you know, knowing me is also a thing that I really like and I appreciate. Yeah. But I was thinking about like, kind of like, what were your, did you have hallmarks? Did you have movies that you looked at

or tried not to look at so you didn't rip them off or things that. The audition was a big one for me. Yeah. Did you have hallmarks? Did you have movies that you looked at or tried not to look at so you didn't rip them off? The audition was a big one for me. And that's the only like true homage in the film. Yeah, there's a very clear one. There's a clear one, yeah. And, but I love him. But like the pacing in general, if I can say,

like I set out to make a challenging film. One of the reasons I'm so excited to be here in addition to loving you and listening to the pod every episode, is like, I think that the pacing, the format, spoiler alert, no one dies in the first five minutes of this movie. And I'm so deeply proud of that. I'm so deeply proud of the fact that we made a horror film that lets you live with your

main character. I'm so deeply proud of the fact that that main character is a black woman and that you see her at home. You see her at work. You see her on a date with young Mizzino in one of the cutest scenes of the year. Like, you get to live with her. And another thing that Japanese horror films do that I'm deeply inspired by,

when they do the gory thing, they go all the way. And so, and that's just kind of, I think it's a sensibility that I share with them. Like if you're gonna do it, go all the way. And that felt like to get this message across, like a really both challenging because it's not your traditional paced horror film, but like challenging in a rewarding way.

And I was deeply inspired by that. So, you know, Train of Busan, there's just a lot of those films, I think, I constantly reference, watch with my DP, Tommy Maddox Upshaw. And then there were films that like, you know, I don't want to give too much away, but in the full core genre, you have the classics, the Wicker Man's. I put Midsommar up there as a classic, a modern classic, and there were things that they did that we just didn't do because they did it. They go off into a remote place and they take their cell phones. And outside of that, to me, it's like, cool.

Those devices that are fun and you got to get rid of the phones. So yeah, I don't want to give away too much in that regard. But I think knowing what not to do, much in that regard, but I think knowing what not to do, we did that a lot with the character. You know, like if Prince was known for something or like I took wigs off the table because of David Bowie. I didn't want people to think, oh, he's David Bowie. I was trying to write down, I wrote down Prince Bowie's Sly Stone because of the kind of reclusive

nature. But I... Alice Cooper was a big, and I liked his theatrics a lot. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But also, Nile Rodgers worked with Bowie. He made Let's Dance with Bowie and a bunch of other great records. And yeah, so I mean, Nile Rodgers and The Dream write the original songs. I've said on this show a couple of times that original songs for a fake pop star in a movie is like a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, it is. You know, almost never goes well. Yeah. Their songs are extremely credible. Yeah, thank you. They jam. Obviously, you've got great writers and producers doing it, but how did you get them to do that? I asked them really nicely.

Okay. Now, here's the thing. Everybody that made this movie is underpaid. But nobody's more underpaid compared to what they get paid to do the thing that they do than Nile and Dream. There was a point in time where they were working with Beyonce and working with me.

And then back to Beyonce and then back to me, right? True story. And they had just one Cuffet had come come out the last hit that they wrote for her. And so they were working on Cowboy Carter at the time. And I had... I don't think we paid Dream and Nile enough to cover their like travel. Like the way that they normally travel. That's how little we had in the budget to pay them. So... You knew... You knew them? I had met Dream a few times.

I profiled him in Vibe magazine in 2007. For real, that's that Sean-estophenecy. Let's go, baby. I love Dream. Yeah, yeah. And no. But like, that's the thing that I think is a misconception about a lot of... You don't get to be that successful and that good if you're not still an artist at heart.

So they read the script, then they sit down with me and I'm like, this is the thing I really wanna do. And I believe in this and I think John can pull this off and I think that y'all are the people to do it. And then to their credit, not only are you trying to do a very difficult thing, like you said, and you're doing it for a, you're basically working for free, but then you got to let me be demanding and choosy because it has to hit a certain standard.

And not only does it have to hit a standard, but it has to fit in this movie. It can't just be a one-off. Like it can't be its own thing. It can't just be a one-off. Like, it can't be its own thing. It can't just be a good record. It has to be a good record that services the story. And so they allowed me to be that. To direct them. To work with them. To collaborate with them.

And the songs are fucking incredible. I think that you have to be... It's very self-possessed to be a filmmaker. I've interviewed a lot of filmmakers over the years and I've known you since you were young. Yes. And so I don't really know how you learned how to like fly to Latvia and tell John Malkovich, like, I need you to fucking focus or told Nile Rodgers, like, this song needs to work better for my movie.

That is something that... people struggle with, artists, and when they do do it, sometimes it comes across as, like, insecure and overbearing. So, like, how do you figure out how to do this? This is your first movie. You made short... You've been working towards this for a very long period of time, but I think actually doing that thing that you're describing, sticking to your guns, being a guy in his mid-30s

talking to people in their 70s who are legends and telling them, I need this to be what I want it to be. How did you do that? I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I can look at. I can't step out and look at myself. Well, this is what being interviewed is all about. I know.

But I could talk to you about them. I don't know that I, I don't know. I really don't know. I think, I just believe in this movie. This is my favorite thing. It just is. I'm so deeply proud of this film. I think it's so fun, so weird.

It says something. It's just so not about me. So I don't, I can't wait to get on that plane. What was... To talk to whoever about it, you know? When you were on set for the first time or for any time really during the set, what was the number one thing that you were like, shit, I didn't know it was like this? I didn't know it was like this.

What is the sort of, I don't know who Bruce Springsteen is of film directing for you. Of film directing? You know, I didn't know who Bruce Springsteen is of film directing for you. You know, I didn't know that it... I didn't know that it was so controllable. If you want your set to run like a Parisian atelier, like, sorry, this is some fashion shit, but like you go to like an atelier where they're making very expensive clothes, it's silent. Like in Phantom Threat.

Right? It's like, you can hear a pin drop, there's one voice at a time. And if you want your set to run like that, it can run like that. If you want people to be miserable, then it can also run like that. You want it to feel like there's always like a boot on everybody's neck and it's chaotic, whatever. It can feel like there's always like a boot on everybody's neck and it's chaotic, whatever. It can feel like that. And I was surprised by how the tone, the vibe was really a reflection of, you know, me, my DP,

my production designer Robert Pizoka, who's incredible. Like the department hit. Like if we showed up and we had a great attitude, then everybody had a good time and I believe the work was better. And that also came from the actors, you know, Ayo, John, Juliette Lewis, Murray Bartlett, Tony Hale. You know, none of these people brought an ego into this. And you know, Stephanie Suganami, who this is really her first film,

but like, you know, Stephanie, she's got more followers, quote unquote, than anybody in this movie. She could have come with a certain type of ego. With all the prosthetics, she, you know, she couldn't see for two days. And never complained. You know, I had to go and check, just, and I think that we all kind of agreed, one, we don't have time or money to have an ego,

but it felt so good making this movie. And I think I thought I was gonna feel tortured during that part of the process. I've seen the film compared to this like wave of eat the rich movies for lack of a better word. Like Blink Twice or The Menu popped up a bit. And I see the movie a little differently than that. And I don't want you to have to feel like you have to give it away.

But when I saw it, I was like, I think I wrote, I was very impressed and I felt a little indicted. Yeah. And I think that's because the movie has a strong point of view on not just that tribalism that you're talking about, but on, for lack of a better word, the media apparatus that attaches itself to fame and power and kind of like very, as gently as it can, siphons energy off of it

to create their own little version of success. This is a very small but complex and powerful idea that I relate to and understand. And I try to have some critical distance from myself, having worked in magazines, interviewing filmmakers. I do think it's a little bit of like a pipe bomb to put in front of the people from myself, having worked in magazines, interviewing filmmakers. I do think it's a little bit of like a pipe bomb to put in front of the people who do this for a living. Yeah.

And I'm curious how conscious you were of that choice. And even if I'm reading the movie correctly or if that's an incidental turn. You gotta opus how you opus. And I'm just grateful that there has been such a strong reaction. I set out to make a challenging film.

One thing I did not set out to do, nor does Marc Anthony the Human believe, is that journalists are bad. That critics are bad. That media is backwards or anything like that. So that's not how I read it. That's damn sure not how it was written or the intention. And I feel like, you know, with you on here, I want to be honest about like it.

It did. It bummed me out for like a week that it got mixed reviews. Yeah, and that some people not every critic but some felt like they were being attacked or challenge. Challenge yes, but like they felt like they were being attacked by me and that bummed me out, but And that bummed me out. But... Ironic having been a journalist.

Well, I think, to me, what I think it points out is how incredibly difficult that job is. Yeah. To me, what it points out is a lot of the backwards thoughts that I had when I was 22 and ambitious and thought that I had it all figured out. If you are a critic that watched Opus and you didn't like it, I have no hard feelings. Like I've done some interviews and you know it's like fuck the critics and da-da.

And I'm like I don't subscribe to that. Like if you didn't like it, I again no hard feelings. I hope I get you on the next one. I hope you like the next one, right, but I Think that the the thing that the the indictment is something we're all a little guiltier right and I set out to make a film that challenged us all and myself at the top of that list. And so I feel so deeply proud and accomplished in that challenge.

And I invite you to go to a theater, have an amazing time, see John Malkovich dance and flail around, see Iowa Debris give a fucking incredible performance, listen to some incredible songs, do the thing that we all are listening to this pod because we love to do, which is to watch movies. And if you feel challenged in that, my hope is that it makes you ask questions. And as an artist, I don't pretend or posture to have the answers. Yeah. And I can't think of a more rewarding cinematic experience than going to a theater and feeling challenged. That's my favorite thing. That's what makes me want to make movies that makes me love movies. It's not when you say the thing that I agree with. It's when I feel challenged.

And I think the reason that tribalism, which has gone well past entertainment, as we all know, I feel like it has created this division to where there is no nuance and there is no conversation and there is no You know It's all my guy's bigger than your guy and if you rock with my guy you can do no wrong And if you don't then it's fuck you and you can't do anything right sports. Yeah And and I just I just don't see the world that way. Yeah

And so this film is the most there's so much honey with the medicine, but it's the most fun uh film is the most there's so much honey with the medicine but it's the most fun interrogation of that and so I invite y'all to see that and again I come in peace I am at the very beginning of this this show the pod James Gray was on probably in that was in the first year we'd never met before yeah got to know him a little bit since then he's been on the show multiple times you know I've listened to every episode of this podcast. You told me. I know.

It's like a little daunting. No, no, no, no. It's into the progression of figuring the format out pre Amanda, you know what I mean? A lot has happened. It's gotten a lot worse, right? It's really sick. No, I mean, you're just in your peak.

This is the prime. I'm personally not, but maybe the show is. But anyway, I bring that up because Suckin' James on the show, it was going really well. It's like, he's from the same part of Queens and my family's from, same thing as when we're talking now. I'm just like, I know this guy.

You know, you're just like, you're talking to someone, you're just like, I know this guy. I know you've had this a million times with interviewing people over the years. And I asked him near the end of the conversation, I was like, you know, you've made a lot of great movies, but you've kind of like taken some hits from critics over the years too, and you're like beloved in France, but not as much in the

United States. Yeah. And I was like, what is that like to read someone write so specifically and so, um, uh, lethally about something that you poured your heart into, and he was just like, it hurts so much. And not a lot of people had said that to me before. And then after I asked him that question, I asked a lot of directors that. And for like years I would ask that question.

Yeah. Because there's like a real vulnerability to it, especially a lot of people who write movies, you know, not if you're making like Jurassic World Rebirth, right? If you're like, I'm a writer-director. And I think that there is a misconception. Again, if you didn't like, whatever. But there is a misconception that Opus was made, I've heard that Opus was made in a different way.

Like that it wasn't a first time filmmaker that gave everything that he had, or she had, or they had to make this thing happen. That, you know, that we didn't shoot in in 19 days. That it, that, you know, there was one report that said our budget was four times what the budget actually was. And I say like, yes, any negative review, letter box, whatever, like it hurts. But I also feel like in my rookie season, I'm being held to a standard that I'm okay that I'm like, don't lower it. I'm okay with that.

Yeah, it's a good attitude. It's genuinely how I feel. I also think this movie absolutely slaps. And I think that when you watch this film, you will be like, wow, that was fun. And yes, John is incredible, IO is incredible. Whatever, I think that there's so much good And yes, John is incredible. Ayo is incredible. You know, whatever. I think that there's so much good

and so proud of this film. So there isn't like, I'm just excited that people are finally getting to see it. And I want to know what everyone thinks. I think that it's a little, you know, the thing that they teach you that people who love me have said before and during this process is do not read the reviews. But the film, there's like an Emperor's New Clothes parable

inside of Obis. And it feels somewhat hypocritical for me to section myself off and to not read reviews because some of them are mixed. I think Jay, like, you know, he's a great example of a director that I think takes big swings and makes interesting things. And this is what I think we're here for. We love original films and we love when people take swings and when things are a little messy and challenging. And I love this film. And so I'm not, I mean, like I said,

I was bummed for about a week. Truly bummed, but I was like, cool, you know? And I think every director, you really make the movie for yourself. I made this film for that kid that watched The Fifth Element. That's like, I didn't know you could put a blue alien on stage singing opera slash hip hop and then have somebody pulled stones out of her that saved the world. I didn't know you could do that. And to that little kid, he is having

the time of his life. Do you, I always ask directors like, what are you gonna do next? Yeah. After their movie comes out and there's like a lot of ways this can go. Yeah. And you and I have not really talked about it. We had like a three minute conversation about it.

Yeah. At a birthday party, at a child's birthday party. Yeah, shout out to my man, Knott. Okay, he is everything good in this world and I believe in him. He's the reason we go. We do it. Yeah, I promised myself this was like, I don't know, maybe October, September, October of

last year, I have never, when I made my short eight years ago, I knew that this is what I wanted to dedicate myself to. Nothing had kind of checked every box and scratched every itch for me. And I made the short, I went into debt making the short, and never had more fun in my life. And never felt more satisfied. So I'm like, okay, cool. You found the thing. Now you gotta just figure out how to do it

and how to do it enough to get good at it. And then, you know, hopefully you'll be great at it one day. And so I promised myself that I would make something immediately after so that I was like working during this part of the process. So I'm making this film. It's about a man who's haunted by ducks. And it's a dark comedy. And I'm deeply, deeply excited and proud of it. And it's going to be really, really fun. So I've been working on that and assembling the team. And yeah, it's totally different than Opus.

And a very different tonally. It's just a different thing. And says a different thing and a new challenge. But yeah. Let me ask you one and a new challenge. But yeah. Let me ask you one last question about that. Of course. So Opus, the trajectory of that movie is like over six years?

Yes, six years. Very long development, where it was, where it ended up, all that stuff takes a long period of time. Through some of that time you were working at GQ, at a certain point- I do most of it. At a certain point you stopped to make the movie. But now you don't have the like life raft of your former career. You're like in the new era of your professional life. And you know, Brady Corbet talked about this on this podcast that like directing movies

is not necessarily if you're doing what you want to do the most profitable enterprise. A lot of directors, especially independent filmmakers. Well, Sean Baker has obviously been talking about this quite a bit recently. It's not easy if you're a stick to your guns kind of person with a strong vision and wanting to do things with some level of control. So like how do you make money? How do you pay your rent? There's two things. One, again, this is my rookie year. So when I drive to the paint and I get fouled, I can't bitch about that. When Sean Baker, who's been making interesting, wonderful, like, films that really get under your skin. For 20 years, he's allowed to stand on a stage and to say, I should make more money.

And by God, Sean Baker should make more money. We should figure it out. There should be some type of governmental grant, some type of subsidy, whatever. Nations have this. Yes, they do. It sounds crazy, but they literally do. And you're like, you add value to the world,

and we are going to have one less tank, and Sean Baker is going to get to make five more movies, or live in a comfortable house. Whatever you want to do with it. And so I don't think it's like, it's just not my place to be up here and to be like, I'm complaining about how much money I'm not making or whatever That's not what I mean. Yeah, I know I'm not trying to set you up for that. I know how it no no no no

I know ain't nobody brother You would never I wouldn't So I'm saying the next thing I'm saying I don't want it to sound like a complaint because I genuinely do not have that I think what as a director, you know, what did Hawthorne say, you know, family's always rising and falling. I feel like there was a point in time, you know,

when like the American zoetrope cats, like they weren't making money at first. And before that, directors really didn't make money. And then it went crazy. And you're getting paid millions and millions of dollars. And the box office is a global, massive thing that we track. And now it feels like that's less of the thing. It's like if you made jazz before the boom,

jazz during the boom and then jazz after. I say this, I'm a jazz musician. I am a filmmaker. If being a filmmaker means that I will make very little money and I'll have to, you know, figure out how to buy the clothes I want. I've done that before. I knew that was the first thing you were gonna bring. But you don't have to hustle. I'm just saying if I gotta figure it out if I'm on eBay to get the sweater that I want two years later because that's really the sweater that I want and I don't have

that. I'm not it is not like some financial thing. Again, I think... That is the person that I knew in 2010. That's the same... In 2010, I was like, how is this broke kid so well dressed? This is insane to me. Man, listen, you figure out your angles and you don't accept the life you don't want. And all that I'm saying, it's just, this is the greatest gift that I've, that like, I found a thing that makes me feel this good. And so I don't know if you're a young filmmaker, I think I'm in no position to give you advice.

The thing that I will say that I would just keep in mind is every day that I went to set, every day I went to the edit, every time I got a note from the studio. Every time I read a review, be it good, be it bad, be it mixed. Every time I got to sit down and talk to somebody like yourself, who I genuinely respect. Throughout every day of this process, there is a base level of happiness that I have. Because this is what the fuck I want to do. If that means that I don't make as much money as whoever who was making movies in the 90s, cool, man. You know, that's a bummer.

I love money, that'd be sick. But like- Oz Perkins said a similar thing when he was here. He was like, I do do this to make some money. Yeah, I need to, yeah, you also don't want other people to make money on the thing and you not make money. That's a whole other. That's a whole other, That's a whole other.

Yeah. And that's not what I'm talking about. That is going to happen too. Yeah. But that's part of the game. But I'm saying like rookie season, you know, keep in mind why you would want the money is to make you happy. And I sit here with this film out now and I've never been happier.

So you know. Mm-hmm. Mark Anthony Green, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Yes. I wanted to say an honest answer. I obviously was thinking about that on the way here and then I was like, do I say something else? You try to flex on me. Not flex, but I was like, oh, because the thing isn't out yet, but it is the answer. And it should be out soon. A very talented director, home of mine, her name is India Slim. And she made this short, it's a coming of age short called Crust.

And the BBC produced it. And it is so deeply beautiful and moving. I don't know when it's out, but I just saw, it's the last thing that I saw. And it really, really moved me. And she's so talented. And I love short films and I just have you spoken with Amanda about that about short films and her relationship to them she hates short films yeah yeah that's she thinks they

shouldn't be on the Oscars well well I'll say this as sergeant of Arms of the Dab Mob. Like, I'm not going to go against my OG. So, you know, I can't do that. Especially not here, you know. But yeah, it's beautiful, crust, and I'm excited for that to find its place in the world and for y'all to see her first kind of like narrative thing. Thanks for being here. Man, this was such an honor to me.

You know, I, we, we did have a conversation about what this would be like, like seven years ago, would it be weird? No, I wasn't worried about that. I was just like, I can't wait to see the movie. I think I said that to you probably 10 times. I, yeah, yeah. I was, and you held it for me for a long time. I did. I needed it to be right.

And, and to just have it done. And also the thing that I'll say is like it takes, there was no part of this process that wasn't like physically carrying a thing over a line. That was surprising to me. That it never like went into like autopilot, but that you are at every step, every filmmaker, unless you are again making like some massive thing that has hundreds of millions of dollars to throw at a problem and all the things. You were just like, cool,

we have to physically carry this thing over the line. And I love that, but I couldn't have you see it until she was ready. And now all of y'all get to see it because she's ready. I can't wait to see it again. Congratulations. Thank you, brother. Thank you.

Thank you to Mark Anthony Green. Thank you to CR and Amanda. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work as well. Thanks to Christopher Nolan. Thanks to the Sanders for his work as well. Thanks to Christopher Nolan. Thanks to the Odyssey R for yet another vigilant update. It really is funny that on IMDB,

the writers are listed as Homer and Christopher Nolan. I hope that that, I hope those are the credits. Yeah. Story by Homer and. I just hope Homer's relatives are getting residuals. I hope there is like a guy like working in a, like a market in Athens. I'm going to go to WGA arbitration.

Because my great great great great great great great great great great grandfather wrote this. Could be the first shot in the Oscar campaign against the Odyssey, which is no doubt coming. Later this week, as I mentioned, 25 for 25 begins. I wish you guys the best on this project. I can't wait to listen. Thanks so much, Chris. We'll see you then.