The Big Picture - The End of Dumpuary? 10 Early-2021 Streaming Movie Recommendations

Episode Date: January 22, 2021

Historically, January is a dumpster fire for new movie releases, but this year holds a few surprising gems. Sean and Amanda recommend 10 new movies you can watch at home right now (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz, the performer and director behind the extraordinary stage show ‘In & of Itself,’ to discuss the movie version of the show, which can now be seen on Hulu (42:00). Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about very good movies. Later in the show, I'll be joined by Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz, the performer and the director behind the extraordinary stage show

In and of Itself, which was filmed in 2019. And you can watch it now on Hulu. I highly recommend it, and I highly recommend you stick around for our conversation. But first, Amanda and I will share a few early year streaming movie recommendations. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. Amanda, before we get into some recommendations, I thought we should begin this conversation by pouring out a little Patron for the patron saint of this podcast, Ben Affleck, who is no longer in a relationship, apparently, with the great actress Ana de Armas. How are you feeling about this sad moment in history?

Well, I think that we should be pouring out Dunkin' Donuts in Ben Affleck's honor. A culotta, perhaps. Yeah. End of an, perhaps. Yeah. End of an era, for sure. What that era was, I still don't really know. History is being written in real time. We talked about this a bit on Jam Session, and I said there, if you'd asked me what would last longer, the pandemic or this relationship, I truly would have been surprised by every

single thing that happened next, you know, in their relationship, in the world, in the world of movies, we are in uncharted territory. So I just want to say to them that I enjoyed the time that we all spent together. These two primarily in front of paparazzi cameras that then I just looked at the photos because I've been in lockdown for a year. And what else did I have to do? I wish them well. And I also just want to spend, send some special thoughts to the publicist for Deepwater. And you are also in my thoughts

and I promise that I'm still looking forward to this movie. Those of you who do not know Deepwater is that is the forthcoming erotic thriller from director Adrian Lyne starring, yes, of course, Ben Affleck and Ana de Armas. It sounds like an amicable split. I hope it is for everyone's sake. I don't need a super duper drama on that press tour. Nevertheless, it does add a new frisson to that film and the experience watching that film because I suspect

there will be some tension between their characters in the movie as there is really in all erotic thrillers. You know, Ben has been on my mind lately. Ben, he's always on my mind. Love Ben. Yeah. Ben gave a wonderful career-spanning interview to the Hollywood Reporters Awards Chatter podcast last week. Highly recommend this conversation. Scott Feinberg does a great job with that show. Ben Affleck in particular, really one of the signature just talkers about his career in Hollywood, perhaps even better than us, frankly. And we've done plenty of that over the years. But I just I did want to invite Ben onto this show because I feel like there were some missed opportunities in that conversation. I would like to invite Ben onto this show to talk about a few films in particular. Those films are Boiler Room, Dogma, Phantoms,

Reindeer Games, Changing Lanes, Extract, The Accountant, and of course, Triple Frontier. These are fine films that were overlooked. Amanda, you too would join me in that conversation, would you not? Absolutely. I just want to say that The Town and Gone Girl were both yada yada'd on the podcast as well.

He says one really lovely thing about David Fincher and Gone Girl and just how about David Fincher and Gone Girl and just, you know, how smart David Fincher is, which is very lovely, but like we know, okay? So we would just rather hear your thoughts about Gone Girl

and The Town, which is my favorite of the films he's directed. I can't recommend this interview enough. I, again, I just, I can't recommend the Ben Affleck experience enough. We've talked about this,

patron saint of this podcast. It's extraordinarily smart and entertaining and engaging. And I hope he doesn't start a podcast because I would like us to still have jobs. But also, I would spend all of my time listening to it. All of it. Yeah. Master of subtle digs on this pod. Master of self-abneg. All of it. Yeah. Master of subtle digs on this pod. Master of

self-abnegating sense of humor. Master of Matt Damon pot shots galore. The whole thing is great. He's great. But I agree. If he launches a pod, we may have to close up shop on the big picture. Just come on as a guest. That'll all be fine. Amanda, last year around

this time, I think it was actually mid-February, we did an episode dedicated to Dumpuary, which of course is the annual tradition in January and February when movie studios decide to put out all of the films that are considered not good. challenging time to make a show like this because we usually don't get a lot of good movies to have a conversation about and in fact people seemed quite uh peeved about even the dump yori episode we did because they felt like oh these movies are not that bad you guys were too hard on them maybe that was true maybe it wasn't i went back and walked back my opinion on birds of prey in fact gave it another look sonic the hedgehog that was a movie we talked about that movie actually was not bad this is revisionist history on your part that's just straight up i was seeing you in this outline right parentheses actually not bad after sonic the hedgehog you were in the foulest mood after was i yeah and we didn't see that one

together you you completely left do little off this list oh do little do you remember sitting in the theater together watching do little yeah and that and then you had like a small breakdown and then we watched sonic the hedgehog uh independently which is i remember that because i just had to go to the arclight at 3 p.m by myself and just like see the arclight alone but what i would do alone i would kill to see sonic alone now at the arclight how wonderful that would be we didn't know what we had that blue hedgehog he was so beautiful. I think that was also the time that I went to, I got dropped off at the Arclight

and I went to the Arclight bar, which was a scene that I discovered just before the pandemic and just before it closed, which I have so many regrets about. But I think that was the time I got in the mix at the Arclight bar with all of the patrons. And there was like a lovely older couple who was telling me, I think they were,

they were going to see Joker and they told me to see parasite. And I was like, okay, I wish I could find out what you guys think about Joker. That was all last year, right? It was all last year. Well,

it was, it was 2019. I'm not confusing my years. But I think also the lovely older couple asked me what I was going to see and I had to be like Sonic the Hedgehog. And that was not my proudest moment. There is an alternate reality in which you are the doyen of the Arclight Bar, in which you are holding court, recommending films to senior citizens, encouraging them to try the filmography of Joanna Hogg, of Celine Sciamma, you know, just bringing your recommendations

out into the world. And instead, here we are muttering about these things on this podcast. Nevertheless, I don't think Dump Your Area is as much of a thing. And I wonder if it's probably overstating things to suggest that it won't be a thing ever again. But we're in this odd moment with the movie release calendar where we're actually getting

a lot of good stuff at this time of year. And some of that is in part because of the way that the Oscar season is organized and the fact that films can be released in January and February and still qualify. But it feels like also maybe just the rolling nature of the calendar has allowed for a bunch of stuff to hit. There was also a kind of soft rollover with a lot of Christmas releases, where traditionally the Christmas releases hit in theaters on Christmas Day, and so they're considered releases from that year that Christmas falls on. But then they stay in theaters. They don't come home, and so not as many people necessarily get a chance to see all of those films, especially if they're in limited release.

In this case, though, we have all of this stuff. Does it feel different to you? Am I overstating the sense that maybe the nature in which movies are released has changed a bit? I don't think that you're overstating the way in which movies are released and how that's changed. It's changed dramatically. And I think you're completely right that it won't go back to the same way. I think there is also a little bit of it's a very strange year. We didn't know when movies were going to be released for a long time. So there is this kind of twin thing happening of just movies are being released without a lot of fanfare.

There isn't like the same buildup or whatever. It's just kind of like, oh, I can watch that now, which is something I kind of associate with Dumpy Warrior being like, oh, I forgot that this movie existed and clearly they didn't want me to remember it existed. And now it's in theaters and I can go see it. I think the other thing that's going on is that, and that will continue is Dumpy Warrior movies usually, or at least I associate them with kind of like, you know, a failed genre thing or a failed romantic comedy. It's just like, we tried this type of movie. It didn't really work. We're going to put it in this window and bury it, or maybe someone will go see it. And I just don't think people are going to be taking

those kinds of movie experiments anymore.. They might take those experiments as streaming shows, but I think we're just going to have really big tentpole movies that won't be allowed to be dumpuary for financial reasons, because why else would you release it or be streaming? Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it. I mean, you're almost projecting like two, three, four years into the future where if that, this is actually something that Affleck said in that conversation. He suggested that it's possible that we have a future in which theatrical distribution is only probably 20 movies a year. And most of them are heavily IP superhero related.

And then everything else comes out via streaming. And what the sort of the streaming middle looks like is an evolving thing. And we'll hit on a couple of movies that I think fit that category. But even this stuff that I've been seeing so far this year doesn't totally feel like the middle. There is an exception,

which is as is customary every January or February, there is a Liam Neeson action movie that was released in movie theaters called The Marksman that I assume will be on VOD in a couple of weeks. I saw it. It was fine. Directed by Robert Lorenz. Liam Neeson's character is a grizzled Arizona rancher who saves a boy who has crossed the border from Mexico and has information that a cartel wants. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's definitely not in that upper tier of the Liam Neeson movie, but that is one of the only things that is coming out in this calendar schedule

that feels familiar to me. Everything else is a little bit more high class, is a little bit more elegant, interesting, even daring. I think there's a handful of things that are coming out on some of these streamers that certainly would not be released in theaters in most Februaries and not at scale the way that you can watch these streamers all at once.

So it's a really interesting moment. We saw like Netflix put out Pieces of a Woman a couple of weeks ago and Outside the Wire last week. And with that, they've sort of announced that every single Friday, the whole year, they're putting out a new movie. And so I feel like our one, I mean, hurry for us, we theoretically have a movie to talk about every week, but also that's like a pretty big challenge to that middle that I think you're talking about.

You know, that sort of like, where do those genre movies go? It's like if Netflix and Amazon prime and HBO max are just going to Hoover all those movies up, it means that movies are likely to be different. Yeah. As you were talking about the fact that Netflix is releasing a movie every single year, which is every single week of this year, which is great for us. And also just them dunking on everybody else, which, sure, I guess, take your victory lap of sorts. But the only Netflix content that I want to talk about right now is Lupin,

which you and I have not spoken about. We haven't. I haven't seen it. You haven't watched it? Oh, it's so great. I really recommend it. I have already finished it. Very rare for me to have finished a TV show.

And last night, my husband and I were just like, what do we do now that Lupin is over? How do we fill our lives again? I haven't had that invigorating experience in a while. I think part of it is that it's filmed in Paris and is definitely filmed pre-lockdown and uses locations. And so it's a sense of place and it's just, it is an international heist with thriller with some charm, which is my favorite kind of movie.

But I was reflecting on the fact, and this is kind of the inverse of another thing that Ben Affleck says in that podcast. He says that if Argo were made now, it would definitely be a 10-episode series. There's no question about it. And we've been saying that in one form or another for some time, but it was very crushing when my hero, Ben Affleck, said that on a podcast. I was like, oh, this is really happening. Anyway. Do you think that that just means Ben's been listening to the rewatchables and that that category has infected his thinking?

No, I think Ben Affleck knows how movies get made and has the phone numbers of some powerful people. You can't indulge me in this fact that he definitely loved the Scream episode of the rewatchables. He could also. I hope that he's listened to the Town episode of the rewatchables he could also i hope that he's listened to the town episode of the rewatchables i do which is an all-time classic astonishing things happen on that episode anyway lupin is kind of the reverse thing where i think eight or ten years ago it would have just been

a movie and part one of like a french james bond attempt. In fact, Omar Sy gave an interview to the New York Times where he was talking about the reason he decided to make the show. And he's like, well, if I were British, I would have done James Bond, but I'm French. So I chose the path. But I think in a lot of ways, it could be more fun in a movie. And I would be excited to see that like really big top focus. Let's, you know, do a couple complex heist and action sequences but you know i just watched the episodes that are on netflix and i was like cool

i really enjoyed this i want some more and i just like watching tv and that makes me worried for all of the the middle ground stuff that they are releasing yeah lupin is a threat to quality film is a whole other conversation i feel like we've been in this, you know, like think about the shows that we've, or I should say the films, quote unquote, that we series and one ongoing series, theoretically. And so certainly that is encroaching and has been encroaching on the movie world for the last several years. But I don't know, there is some stuff that is not necessarily just Lupin or Pretend It's a City. So I wrote down a few movies.

You wrote down a couple of movies. I kind of want to start with your first recommendation because I don't know that we agree about this, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Well, we all just hadn't talked about it. And it seemed like such a convergence of our interests. And also, you know, we have to talk about every movie that we both see on this podcast. You know, we're like, there aren't that many. It's Locked Down, the lockdown film by Doug Liman starring Anne Hathaway and Chiwetel Ejiofor. both see on this podcast you know we're like there aren't that many um it's locked down the lockdown film uh by doug lyman starring anne hathaway and chotel edgier for let me just say

right here i don't know if this movie is quote good like with a capital g or with a or whether Or whether everything that they try totally works. But it works far more than I thought it would. I enjoyed it. I loved being in the company of movie stars again for almost two hours. I missed them. There is a presence that Anne Hathaway and Chiwetel Ejiofor have that other actors do not. And there are moments, especially when Anne Hathaway kind of gets into movie starland. And I was like, great. I miss this.

I'm enjoying it. I wish that this weren't filmed via Zoom. It wasn't actually filmed via Zoom, but because it's set in quarantine. And just the very brief synopsis is that it's a couple who have broken up just before lockdown in London starts. And so they are in the house together in quarantine. And there's like a vague, who's afraid of Virginia Woolf, like yelling at each other aspect to it.

And then it turns also into a heist film. My favorite genre. So because of the way it's set, they do use Zoom. I miss production values. I never want to look at a Zoom screen again. You're on a Zoom screen right now. It's nice to see your face. It's the only way I see your face but like I'm I'm sick of this shit me too but they make it work sort of yeah there I think some of it works um I'm certainly on the

record about Doug Liman who I I think has a fascinating CV and a fascinating way of making films and he is he's a risk taker by nature right daring is kind of the the sort of like let's see what happens quality to his style of directing is appealing to me and a solid 70 of his movies i think are are downright great this was like half very successful and half i thought unsuccessful part of it was this anxiety of just watching these zoom screens and knowing that we are all stuck in this place and that frankly the film, and this is not the film's fault necessarily,

but that the film feels a bit like a relic of last summer or last fall as opposed to a contemporary experience. And so ostensibly, if we're looking forward to the future, this is a movie that feels trapped in a moment that sucked. On the other hand,

Anne Hathaway is one of my faves. And even if she's being extremely sharp clawed and a bit angry, I still find her very appealing. So I liked watching her and spending time with her. And I did like the high sequence. I thought that that was kind of the most successful part of the movie for me personally. The idea of being in like a very unfortunate professional meeting via Zoom is what my life has been for the last year. So I really don't want a movie about that. I just, I don't want that manifest in any way. So I kind of keep that out of my movies

was my feeling as I was watching the first half. But it's still, I mean, it's a new movie with movie stars that hit HBO Max with like very little fanfare. And then it's just there and you can watch it. And that in and of itself, I think is kind of fascinating. Yeah. And you know, it's a lot of ways, I think it was a little better than it needed to be

for everything that you just said, which was a movie filmed, and I believe 18 days like in quarantine. Like the Stephen Knight script is pretty smart and it's funny and there are weird digressions and you get to hang out in like nice rooms and Anne Hathaway's wardrobe she does like the zoom wardrobe where she's just completely glam uh you know jacket and shirt and then it's wearing giant pajama pants and they show that I mean it's funny it's well observed like not everything lands but I I was dreading the lockdown aspect of it i was like i never do

i want to see a zoom screen again and it it was okay for me i am going to recommend a completely different kind of quarantine movie so i saw a documentary on friday called some kind of heaven are you familiar with this yes i saw it and I would like to discuss it. Okay. So Some Kind of Heaven is also about being trapped in a way, whether that place you're trapped in is wonderful or terrorizing, I think is an interesting question of the film. It's a portrayal of a handful of people living in the retirement community in Florida called The Villages. My awareness of The Villages basically came when I listened to an episode of The Daily Podcast in which they talked about how this community was a hotbed for Trump support and also the complications of Trump support, where the retirement community, the people who live in this retirement community,

would be sort of at war with each other about whether or not they were supporting the right party, how they were voting. Obviously, elderly voters represent a significant percentage of Republican voters. And so it was portrayed as this den of fury. And Lance Oppenheim, the man who directed this movie, his vision of it is completely different than that. This is a completely apolitical film, or at least not so not overtly political. And it's much more of a character study about four or five people who live here.

A couple that is going through a tremendously difficult period, a wayward man who's kind of without a home, a recently widowed woman who is struggling to make connection. And it's beautifully shot, it's incredibly humane. It certainly is depressing at times. And that's not necessarily a good thing either in this moment in history. It's not necessarily going to uplift people that watch it, but there's a real intentionality. There's like a real effort to understand these people and what leads them to this kind of existence, which, you know, I do daydream occasionally about the idea of retirement, but not like this. Like I do not want to go to a place where like me and 300 other people can dance to Jimmy Buffett songs while getting cranked at like two o'clock in the afternoon.

But I was kind of amusing to watch other people do it. I don't know. What did you think of some kind of heaven? Well, I'm trying to think, you know, this far in lockdown, I might want to be dancing to Jimmy Buffett with 300 people at this point. Like, that might be where I am.

And I'm not doing that. I'm being safe. But, like, is that... Your parrot head? Is that what you're saying? Your parrot head? I was raised as a bit of a parrot head.

What? I told you this before. I've been to a Jimmy Buffett concert. You know, like, when I was, like, nine. My Aunt Betty took me. Yeah. And then she... So, we went to a concert.ett concert you know like when I was like nine my aunt Betty took me yeah and then she so I we went to a concert I was like nine or ten we're there in person and when he plays the song that's like why don't we get drunk and screw I don't remember the like

real title of it she did like old school earmuffs on me but like we were in a you know at a concert so it was just her hand So I heard the whole thing. Yeah, I do know all like I know the little breakdown rap in Cheeseburger in Paradise, whatever. That's it for a different time. But maybe that flavors a little bit my response to some kind of heaven because I grew up closer to Florida than you did and have like a little bit more of a connection to to these types of people or at least I'm kind of familiar with them I like you thought that this

was going to be a political film like based on my knowledge of like the villages and the role that it played on the national stage and with Trumpism and in the last year or two and so I was not prepared for the portrayals of marriage and end of life and found it. I got very depressed about 45 minutes and which is not to say I think it's very effective. And like you said, very beautifully shot. And you're certainly invested in these people. And but it was not like an uplifting always. It's heavy. It's heavy. It's heavy.

Yeah. The marriage in particular, and there's a, there's, you know, without sort of spoiling the story, there is a couple that has been together for a great many years. There,

the husband at the, you know, nearing the final stages of his life, not that he's dying, but he realized he's used on the back nine, so to speak, starts experimenting with drugs and becomes reliant on them in a lot of ways and that obviously colors the dynamic of his relationship and it's actually quite a sensitive

portrait of what it means for this man's partner and this woman is obviously devastated confused frustrated does not feel heard um by her partner and it is kind of sad and it is a bit of a cautionary tale frankly as a person in a marriage um about not necessarily pursuing your own interests too far so that won't necessarily make people smile but there is so much to recommend about the movie that i thought it would be it's the kind of thing that normally would come out at documentary qualifying time and then it would take a long time for you to get a chance to see it and once again i was like it's friday Eileen, should we just fire this movie up? And I did and it was good.

Totally. It's funny because I have come to rely on documentaries, especially in the last year. I think I've seen more documentaries in the last year than I ever have. And it's because I've been at home and there's something about I can put it on. And even if it is just like astonishing filmmaking,

which many of these documentaries are, there is something less like now I have to sit here and not look at my phone. And like, there's something less formal about it that actually makes documentaries like a more approachable and accessible at home watch for me. I'm getting more out of them.

But I put this on not expecting the full emotional weight of it. And I am still reeling a little bit from it. But that's good. That means it's a successful documentary. What's your next recommendation? So this is one that came out at the end of 2020, but we did not get to speak about it. And I just really liked it.

And it's Sylvie's Love, which we are not the first people to recommend Sylvie's Love to you at all. But it is written and directed by Eugene Ash. And it stars Tessa Thompson and Namdi Asumwa. And it is, you know, in the style of a classic Hollywood love story. It's set in the 50s and 60s. And unlike all classic Hollywood love stories, it stars a black couple. And it is beautiful and swoony and has the music and the clothes and the references

and just is transporting and very sweet in a way. And it's funny, I watched it the same week that I watched Bridgerton, speaking of streaming and TV and romance. And also I should note that Sylvie's Love has a brief cameo by Regé-Jean Page, who is the main star of Bridgerton. He's just like,

he's a supporting character. Sylvie's Love is more my type of romance than Bridgerton. I'm just going to leave it at that. I've not seen a single minute of Bridgerton. I am not a romance novel reader. And it's meant for a different type of audience, a different type of storytelling. It was not my bag. I should also note that I fell asleep through a couple of episodes and I apparently missed the sexiest sex scenes. But anyway, Sylvie's love is not like the sex scenes are implied. They're not shown in the same way but I found it really romantic and enjoyable and I recommend it

Sylvie's Love is very good I don't even know why we didn't get it it's another thing where it's sort of like this was released I think on the 23rd on Amazon Prime and then all of a sudden it's the holidays and I didn't get a chance to see it ahead of time and it just kind of slips through the cracks and you know as much as we grouse about how there's no good movies anymore,

there's actually just too many good movies in a weird way. Maybe not everything is of that four-star, tear my hair out, let's do a top five ranking of this movie in real time quality. But just looking down at this list, there's a couple of movies that are coming out this Friday, January 22nd that are good. They're not mind-blowing, but they are good. One is called The White Tiger. It's on Netflix.

It's Raman Barani's new film. It's an adaptation of a novel, and it's kind of a gangster epic. It's more Scarface-y, I think, than, you know, Goodfellas necessarily. It's about the rise of someone seizing power in a community that

needs a kind of vigilante hero, I think. And it's about the upsides and the downsides of that. And it's an epic tale. It's like a two and a half hour movie. At times, I thought it dragged a little bit. At times, I thought it was a little bit derivative. At other times, I thought it was incredibly exciting and energizing. And it was like, it's great that somebody is making movies like this. This is a kind of movie that for whatever reason also is not really being made for movie theaters anymore. So I got a kick out of watching that. And simultaneously, I saw this movie called Our Friend. Have you had a chance to see Our Friend yet? I haven't, though. After you describe it, I want to talk a little bit about,

there was a New York Times piece about it today. I don't know if you saw it. I have not seen it. Our Friend is a new film from gabriella coperthwaite uh that is an adaptation of a story in esquire about a man who goes to move in with his two friends as after one of the the the woman in the couple that he's moved in with has been diagnosed with cancer and the friend is played by jason siegel the Couple is played by Casey Affleck and Dakota Johnston. And this is also a kind of unusual, uncommon kind of movie.

I think it debuted originally at the 2019 Toronto International Film Festival, so it's been a long time kind of coming to audiences. Again, I thought a little bit baggy and not necessarily as lean as I wanted a movie like this to be, but when it works, it is emotionally pulverizing. I thought a little bit baggy and not necessarily as lean as I wanted a movie like this to be.

But when it works, it is emotionally pulverizing. It is the like, choke you out. It's so sad kind of a movie. And it's told non-linearly. So it kind of moves back and forth through time as we understand what Siegel's character means to these two people and what they mean to him and what it means to be a friend to someone who's going through something that is very difficult. Very, very sensitive movie movie hard kind of a movie to make right now it's become kind of a joke that jason seagull always plays this kind of guy it's like do you want a nice friend you should cast jason seagull in your movie but sometimes when you're good at something you should do it sometimes if you're left-handed you should consider pitching you know like jason seagull has a he has the tonality for this kind of a role. So I didn't I wouldn't say I loved this movie, but it definitely got me feeling something in the dead of night on a Sunday. And I don't know if there's the original Esquire piece and the husband in the kind of the three person scenario that you just described.

And it was talking to him about making something so personal, you know, and adapting and putting out there. But really, it's about when critics don't like something that is so personal to you. And there were a couple of reviews after that debut at Toronto that I read one of them. I didn't read the other, and I wouldn't say that they were like cruel, but they were critical reviews and they thought that's parts of the movie didn't work. And he was crushed by that, which you would understand if it's your personal story and you have put it out there. And so, you know, it ultimately is a story. And I thought like a good reminder for us and for everybody to remember that there is like someone else at the other end

of whatever else you're talking about. And he even says, because he's a journalist, he's like, it was a reminder to me to remember that there is someone else at the other end of whatever you're talking about and what even like a brief reference or a short interview can like really haunt someone for a while. But I would have loved like a little more. It's rude to ask for any more like emotional, like sharing from this man. He's already been through so much and shared so much with the world. But, you know, like it's an interesting topic and it kind of it raises it and and he talks about his feelings and it seems like it's it's okay now but i i thought it was really interesting i'm curious to see how critics respond to it well it's it it's a challenging prompt for criticism in general which is like what really is the upside here of shitting on this movie?

Like at what point, I don't think it's kind of worthy of a hard pan. I think most people, I think it will probably land in that sort of like, you know, 58% on Rotten Tomatoes

kind of territory where it's like some of this, I agree, some of it really does not work. And some of it works so well and you're so trapped by the movie and the feelings that the movie provokes that it's like, well, what really matters here? Like what's most important? Is it that the movie be a pristine diamond for two hours and 12 minutes?

Or is it that the movie captures something inside of you and compels you? Like, I don't have an answer for that. I think it's an interesting question to ask yourself about the experience of watching movies in the first place. And even he's trying to understand that dichotomy himself and he's like in that room I heard everybody like weeping you know like he and he understands that emotional response and then the reviews seem to kind of be more about like the intellectual or the the building blocks of the film and the reality is is like both have to be true. And I think it's really hard to distance yourself from anything that is this personal to you. And I just, I truly, God bless anyone who puts this much of their heart out in public. It's a, it's very difficult. I'm not brave enough to do it, but it's, in terms of how to review a movie

like this and even how people respond to it. I i mean a rotten tomatoes score of like this person's life and experience i mean if it's like 56 that's that's that's the most meaningless of all meaningless things yes yes and that's the thing is like it's you obviously can't see your life shot through any kind of prism like that it's so rare that you see somebody whom a true story is based on even talking about that experience but i will say when i first started doing the show and talking to directors, I loved to ask them about whether they had read their reviews. Because filmmakers pour years of their life and frankly threaten everything else in their life by doing these things. And then they come out and forget about if they don't make money or that doesn't mean greatness for their next project. If someone literally publicly is like, this is so bad and here's why,

that's such a strange sensation to have to experience. And so having a sensitivity to it, if you're a normal person who's telling their story, it must be odd. Anyhow, that's our friend. I think it's worth recommending despite some of its imperfections um let's talk quickly about mlk fbi because i think we might have mentioned mlk fbi after

tiff but didn't really get into it it was released on vod last week and obviously it was timed to martin luther king jr day uh earlier this week this is a i think a very sober and sobering documentary by sam pollard who's kind of one of the signature documentary filmmakers of this time right now a very kind of classically composed very serious film a lot of scholarship a lot of academia and history in this movie which makes it sound dull it's not dull it's very very well made it's not overstating things to say it's a vital piece of uh sort of revelation of reporting like a lot of what is in this film was available in books one book in particular that is based on but it's very well

told um i know i think you you like this as well i saw it at sundance as well it's rigorous is the word that i would use in in the best way um that's my journalism hat complimenting it and i think you know especially when the martin luther king King Jr. holiday now is performed everywhere in a way that can be it can be distanced from like its source text and inspiration. And this is a an antidote to that in the best way. And similarly shows, you know, not just the toll that organizations like the FBI took on King and the civil rights movement, but that King was a human man and that he was subject to a kind of inquiry and like an overexertion of force that was so unreasonable

and like an exploitation that was so harrowing. It's an interesting film and definitely worth people's time. I gotta tell you about a movie watching experience I had last night, okay? Okay. So News of the World is on VOD, right? Mm-hmm.

Good film, would recommend that. Promising Young Woman, I think, is definitely worth watching as well, also on VOD. VOD, now, if you're willing to pay anywhere from $3.99 to $19.99, you can watch movie theater movies at home. It's pretty neat. I've been dreaming about this my whole life.

Now we have it, and I'm stuck in a fucking pandemic and I'm mad every day. Anyhow, I stumbled on a VOD movie a couple of weeks ago called The Empty Man. The Empty Man sounds like a junkie horror movie. In many ways, it has been positioned as a junkie horror movie. It has a junkie horror movies poster, which is like black and white with some sort of shadowy image. It has a title that makes you think it's one of these like Slenderman-esque kind of urban myth tales. And it was filmed in 2017 and not released for three plus years. Never a good sign. In fact, this movie was dumped.

It is a true dumpuary candidate, the kind of movie that you were describing earlier in the show. It's directed by a guy named David Pryor. Here movie that you were describing earlier in the show. It's directed by a guy named David Pryor. Here are David Pryor's Pryors. He's made a bunch of documentaries that are making-ofs on David Fincher movies. He made the making-of documentary about the Social Network. He made the making-of documentary about Benjamin Button.

He made the making-of documentary about Zodiac. And that's really it. It seems like he made a short film. I haven't seen it. Not exactly a decorated filmmaker and yet there was like weird burblings if you search this movie on twitter if you look at it on letterboxd people are like there's some fire in this movie and there is indeed some fire in this movie it's not an amanda movie two hours and 20 minutes long it is definitely about some sort of spirit that captures the soul of people i know

that's not in your realm but there's so much craft in this movie it's very very well made and up until the final 10 minutes when all movies like this tend to fall apart i was like is this really happening like this movie is way too good to have no reputation to have no conversation to have no attention put on it. So this is my very small gesture to just say, I think if you like horror movies and if you like the kind of obsessive crime movies of David Fincher, it is certainly not as good as those movies, but there is a lot in The Empty Man for you to enjoy. How was that pitch? That was pretty good. I mean, I won't watch it, but you already knew that. And I'm glad that you had that experience of wonder of being like, oh, hey, this is really good. That's nice.

You can still be surprised. I pride myself on all my spreadsheets and knowing when stuff is coming out and what's going on with these releases. And I make it a point to talk about it here on the show. And last night I was like, I just need to watch this. I don't know why I feel compelled to watch it. I did. And I was really happy that I did, which is really, again, all you can ask for. It's funny that we're doing this episode now because I do feel like next week, in a way, is the sort of the arrival of the movie

year in some respects. We're very excited to talk about The Little Things and Denzel Washington and the career of Denzel Washington on this podcast and we will do so when The Little Things comes to HBO Max next week. Are you ready for that? I can't wait. It's going to be good. Denzel Washington has made so many great films and also so many bad films, and I'm enjoying going back to his bad films as well. I know. And there are also, there are a lot of films that I love, but I'm like, is this the

best Denzel? Is this the Denzel I want to put forward? I don't really know. Yeah. And what does it even mean? What does it mean for him to be good? He's good in bad movies and not great in good movies. It's an interesting conundrum. So that'll be great. St. Maude, which is an A24 horror movie that was supposed to come out well over a year ago I think, is finally coming out in movie theaters, which means ostensibly

it will be coming out to view at home shortly thereafter. There's a new Carey Mulligan movie on Netflix called The Dig. There's a Justin Timberlake drama on Apple TV Plus called Palmer. I've seen it. I will hold my comment. And then there's a drama called Supernova starring Colin Firth and Stanley Tucci, also coming to theaters and VOD.

So that's all next week. All this stuff. There's just stuff now. I'm kind of amazed to have stuff to talk about in a january yeah i mean this is it must be frustrating for you because of like the spreadsheets and the order and the knowing we're going to talk about this that and the other like the sense of discovery and wonder even though you got there in the end with the the empty man is that what it's called the empty man thank you i was about to say the wicker man the whole time i was like I thought when you were describing that movie that you were going to say, and Nicolas Cage is in it.

It's James Badgedale, the wonderful James Badgedale. But I do think if you're game to just kind of click around and try something right now, it is an exciting time. Whether it ends up being like an eight-part miniseries or a documentary about a marriage falling apart and or, you know, a pandemic quarantine movie. Like, it's really up in the air. And the quality control isn't maybe where you and I want it to be. But on the flip side, surprises are nice. As a closing thought, will you be watching Derek DelGaudio's In and of Itself? It's about magic, right?

Sort of. I think that probably limits it in its description. The one thing I will say is it is undoubtedly about radical intimacy. And I know that sometimes that is a flag for you. Oh my God. I just got like really, really upset. No, but that's not. And is it also about radical intimacy in performance?

Yes, in a way. When I was watching Lady Gaga sing the National Anthem at Joe Biden's inauguration, Zach sat next to me and literally I just every single time she would go for a high note, I was just like, oh no, oh my God. It was like me rooting. And by the way, she nailed it. I thought Lady Gaga did a fantastic job and the national anthem is very hard to sing. But my anxiety about her hitting every single note was like a parent, like a really, a sports dad watching their young child in a game, just being like, are you going to make this catch? So I don't know whether I can handle any more radical performance intimacy. I will say that what Del Gaudio does in his stage show, the high wire act that he performs, especially in the final 20 minutes of the film, makes Gaga's performance at the inauguration look like someone going to the fridge and pouring a glass of OJ. What he's doing is some wild stuff, man.

I'm extremely... My face is hot. I'm extremely stressed out right now. So we'll see whether I watch it, whether I can get to a place where I'm ready. Okay. Thanks, Amanda. Let's now go to that conversation with Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz. honored and delighted to be joined by the great frank oz and the great derek delgaudio guys thanks for doing the show i really appreciate it pleasure thanks for having us derek i want to start with you i want to start right at the beginning i think a lot of people that are listening to this may not be familiar with you some maybe but you have been doing a lot of your work to small audiences and in modestly sized theaters for the last few years. And now your show is coming to a wider audience. So can you just maybe tell me when you first conceived of In and Of

Itself and what the journey has been like? It's hard to answer that because it's been brewing in me for a long long time um i was kind of stuck in my own practice and my own medium uh or lack thereof and did you know was suffering from you know the crisis of what do I want to be when I grow up kind of perpetually. And I didn't know what I what I was. And, and at some point, I realized that the illusion was that I needed to be out a way out of that a way to to kind of break out of that that mode of thinking and so i i i had done shows before i'd done live theater shows before and i had done um i i had a one on the date on the books that I was supposed to deliver a show to a theater. And I kind of set myself a date in the future and said, okay, I have to do something about this. And so I started thinking about identity and identity in the context of not just who I was, but how others saw me, and then how we see others, and kind of realized that obviously it starts with a personal seed, but quickly grew into

something that was ubiquitous and kind of a topic everyone can relate to in some way. And so I started going down that road and thinking about what what it what it meant to be and be seen and to see others and how that affects how that affects you know us and them and and uh and started to put together a picture of of what of what a an experience would look like that address these issues. And at some point down the road, I realized I needed help. I needed, I couldn't do this alone. And I had to get a director. And at first I didn't even want a director when I first thought about it,

because I thought I didn't want anything to be, I thought if I have a director, then it's a theater show. And I don't want this to be a theater show. And as soon if I have a director, then it's a theater show. And I don't want this to be a theater show. And as soon as I have a director, it becomes a theater show. And it becomes a one-man show, which is not what I wanted. I didn't even want that context or framing around it at all. So I just wanted people to be able to experience this and not know what it was and kind of have it be undefinable.

And so, but then it quickly realized, no, I actually kind of need a director because I can't do this alone. And the, the only person I could think of was Frank. And, um, I basically sent him an email saying, I need a director. You're the only one who can do it. Um, and if, you know, it's you or nobody else. And he, he didn't say yes right away. He, uh, he said only if I can do it. And if, you know, it's you or nobody else. And he didn't say yes right away. He said only if I can help. And so I flew to New York from LA. And I... We had known each other for about two years before that. Yeah, we had known each other. We introduced a mutual friend, told Frank to see a performance I did. And after the show, we met and talked and then we ended up having drinks and

we hit it off and kept in touch. But I just had a sense that Frank would understand what I was trying to do. And when everyone thinks of the name Frank Goss, when they hear it, a different image is formed in their head. And so I had a feeling he would he would he would know what i was talking about so i flew out and in his living room kind of talked through this jumbled mess of of an experience that i was trying to to create and and he uh he said well you got like a leg over here and a ear over here and a nose over here and a you over here. We need to make this thing a living, breathing elephant and put it together and make a thing. He agreed and off to the races. We just started collaborating

and here we are. Frank, from your perspective, when you say, only if I can help, what does that mean practically and creatively? How do you help someone like Derek make something like the show? Well, actually, I said only if I can contribute, which I always say if people ask me to do things. Just because I'm Frank Oz, it doesn't mean that I'm right for the project. It doesn't mean that I can actually contribute. So I needed to know in what way I felt I could contribute. And I felt with Derek, one doesn't really know how one can contribute. One can just get the feeling that one can. And with Derek, I sensed the purity of his intent, which is important to me. It wasn't to make a lot of money, although I'd be nice. And it wasn't to do a theater show because, again, I agree with him.

Once it's theater, it's artifice, you know, and you can't connect. So what it means to me is, first of all, does it feel right? Do I get along with this guy? Do I sense who he is? And then if so, then the process will get me to contribute. What level of understanding do you have into how Derek pulls off all of the feats of the show is everything is everything shared because there's obviously mystery and a kind of you know a kind of intellectual rigor feels very part of the construction of something like this and if you're the director frank and derek you're creating

everything and it's so personal but also so kind of strategic is everything on the table do you talk about every aspect of what you're doing you want to answer that derek yeah sure i mean i didn't i didn't ever try to keep things from frank ever um but uh he didn't want to know anything so it was he didn't want to know anything he didn't that didn't help him uh create what we're trying to create um as you know as much as you you know you don't need to know what the gaffer's doing as long as it makes things work and look good on set you know so he didn't uh really care about that he cared about the work and and if it helped him understand why i was making a choice that i was making then then it just helped him understand that and make sense of it. And so there was no need to...

He was let in on anything he wanted to be let in on, and everything else was just a technicality that needed to happen to make things work. Yeah, I think that's true. I have no interest in knowing anything that doesn't help me make that living, breathing animal. That's all I cared about. And but, you know, this all came from Derek's soul, you know. And so in the beginning, it took me a little while to process what he was doing.

And after a while, I'd say a month or so, I started getting it. The month that we worked together was more checking each other out, figuring out how do we work with each other. The first month, yeah. Yeah. But then I started to sense what was in his soul, and I felt I could contribute to help bring it out in such a manner that it would be a living, breathing animal. Derek, can you talk about the writing and the staging of the show? Because I never hear someone who does what you do talk about how you actually write it. Well, no one has ever done it the way that I've done it before.

How do you well usually i assume you're speaking you're speaking i'm i assume you're addressing me as if i'm a magician that's the assumption i'm making in terms of asking this question uh yes but i mean also as someone who i presume is repeating the same words in every presentation of every performance right so there yeah yeah there's you're also as a monologuist in some ways yeah uh yes there's a tension between uh there's a tension that happens when you perform some sort of mystery live um that gets people to reflect on uh what just happened. You know, if something amazing happens, your first thoughts are, that's not possible.

How is that possible? And then your mind starts wandering and wondering as to how this could have happened. And that's actually not good for storytelling because storytelling is all about what comes next and you don't want people thinking about the past when you're trying to take them into the future and so it's difficult to find a balance between storytelling and creating a moment of wonder or astonishment um that's that's a difficult thing it's hard to do on its own add to that traditionally um most most well i've seen a lot of uh magicians perform a lot of sleight of hand artists a lot of people who present mysteries and it's always in service of whatever it is they're trying to demonstrate

their ability to do the thing they're trying to show you and the words that they say are in service of that demonstration um and even if it's a story it's still even if it's well written and well presented, it's still in service of that illusion they're trying to create or manifest. I didn't, the illusions were not what, they matter, but they weren't what I was trying to express. I wasn't, I was trying to use a moment of wonder or a sense of astonishment to access a space of unknowingness to then have a discussion about an idea. So that it's like a chalkboard that's full of all this information that we call life. And if you're able to just clear a space on that chalkboard for a moment, there's a blank area that we can look at and then inside of that clear dark center place a single idea that now we can experience with

some purity that's my goal um which is not the same as i have some, you know, for lack of a better word, tricks that I want to show people. What can I say to go with these? And then retroactively try to find language that suits that and helps illustrate these things. I did it the other way, I guess. I just wrote and came up with ideas and concepts that didn't have any sort of effect attached to them and then had to try to illustrate those with, with, uh, or punctuate them with a moment of, of wonder or an illusion of some sort, I guess. And so in this context,

the illusions are a metaphor for what I was actually trying to talk about, which is identity. And so they were all in service of something in their individual monologues or stories. And then in a larger theme, they were all pushing towards the same goal. And so that's not really something that's done traditionally and uh how to do that uh i don't know i mean i've done it and i don't i don't have an answer for it because it's it's the process the process was a workshop process really uh and it wasn't as if Derek wrote the script. What happened was on the workshop, Derek tried some things and I reacted to him, positive and negative or whatever, and we talked about it and then if we liked it, then he'd start writing that.

And build it that way. Oh, let's try it. How about this? And we both went down some dark alleyways and have to turn around. But then eventually Derek and I both felt, Hey, that's okay. And then Derek continued writing that. Right, Derek?

Yeah. It was a constant build that way. And let me just say, if I could, you know, regarding what Derek does, the sense of wonder, you know,

if he, and he is a terrific monologist, marvelous. If he was just a monologist, if he had just told the story and had nothing else on stage, like many monologists do, it would not have been as connective viscerally to the audience. It needed to hit the audience emotionally. And these things that these senses of wonder were only there as a tool to do that. And so what Derek's talking about is as opposed to other shows

where the result of wonder is what you get, and that is what people are going for, and that's what the performer wants the audience to appreciate. It's not that case here. The sense of wonder here is only to help Derek continue the story. It's really only to help the monologist make it come more alive. So I never saw a live performance of your show. I heard about it quite a bit.

I read about it. It had a kind of cult fervor, even amongst friends of mine, and was sad to have missed it. I don't know the total number of performances you guys ultimately did, but I'm curious at what point you decided you wanted to make a film out of what you were doing and how that affected the shows that you were doing it that the notion of it wasn't even discussed until i mean 400 shows in you know 300 400 shows i mean many shows i'd never filmed anything i've done before um because the mediums are just it's not right if you want to make a

film make a film and if you want to do a live show make a live show but the idea of combining the two didn't really seem appropriate um but at some point um and i had the luxury of seeing the faces of the people in the audience i had a point of view that no one else had not even frank because frank had to watch it from, you know, the audience. But I got to see their faces and something was happening. And I could just tell that this was, we were, it was happening. Like what, what we set out to do was, was actually happening. And I thought it could, I thought it, at the very least it'd be worth preserving for myself. Like, I don't want to look back and be like, I i got it i wish i got a good recording of that um even for myself so we

started to shoot casually just as like to to see what it looked like and the more that we shot the more we sensed that this could be this could really be something and uh then then it became a question of how do we translate it how do we how how could we do it in a way that elevated it rather than made it seem like oh i wish i saw the live show that was kind of a marching order that we had from the beginning of just this can't be they can't watch this and go oh i would have killed to have seen it live they have to value what they see on film and also know even if not not explicitly implicitly have a sense that they're getting in some ways more from the film than they could have gotten in the live experience which is which

is true in this case because we added you know added elements and were able to tell the story in a way that we couldn't live. Was there anything that you needed to change when you decided that you wanted to capture it for film? Was there anything that you had to modulate from what you had been doing in the theater? What do you mean? Like in the edit or in the filming the in the filming in the way you were

performing did you feel any meaningful change while you were capturing it no i uh no i mean there was there were the nights that the cameras were present um there was a tonal shift obviously because like people get self-conscious when there's a camera there. Uh, but that was only the, the bigger shoots where we had multiple cameras in the room, um, where you could kind of sense that, okay, that they're, they know they're on camera a little more self-aware than they might've been if it was, obviously there are no cameras in the room. Um, but no, I mean, I didn't, I didn't certainly change and they they for the most part yeah i

mean it's that's that's the way it was i mean what you if anything what's on camera is a is a toned down version in some ways because if someone uh you know someone's self-conscious about the reaction to something, they might not have the same reaction if there wasn't a camera there. But it didn't affect it that I noticed. I had other things affect the show in ways that were much more drastic. Can I read you a quote from 2017 and get your take on it now in 2020? Sure.

So you were profiled by the New York Times Magazine and there was an anecdote about during Nothing to Hide, you got an offer to go on The Daily Show and Fallon and Letterman. And there was some conversation about whether or not you could have a rehearsal with the cameras and get final cut. And they said, no. And you said, in that case, we can't do it because cameras flatten the work. And God forbid they see something you don't want them to see. And then the piece is destroyed. So I'd rather just not be famous. Yeah.

Did you change your mind about the not be famous part? Have you considered that? What it means to be exposed to this kind of audience now that the film is coming out? No, not at all. It's still the same for me. Obviously, you know, the film was different than going on, you know, going on a TV show where you have no control because it's our film. We can do what we want. But, no, I mean, in that particular context for that like i no i still i still i still

have the same feeling because when in i forget when stephen colbert who was a producer on our film uh their their um casting director or whoever the producer who who has the talent come on the show they asked me to be on the show and i told them i would i said that's it's an honor to be asked i mean steven's the best and i i would be honored but i'll only go on the show if he sees, if he comes and sees the show, uh, into our little 150 seat theater downtown. Um, I can only go on his show if, if he, uh, if he's able to see mine. And, and they're like, are you serious? And I was like, yeah, I can't. I, yes, because I can't allow, I can't allow for a context where I'm sitting there across from someone as smart and great as Stephen where he actually doesn't know what this is.

And talking about the performance even after you've seen it is difficult. So talking about it when you haven't seen it is impossible. I'm navigating that right now, Derek. I understand. I understand. It's difficult, right? You don't know what to say, what not to say, and how to approach the work or me and how to address me or the work. I knew that if Steven hadn't seen the show, it would be what on the surface it appears to be to everyone else. And what on the surface it appears to be to everyone else and what on the surface it still appears to

be to people who haven't seen the film which is oh some guy did some monologue show with some magic in it that's the that's the narrative that that people that's what people think it is if they haven't really seen it that's what some people think it is even after they've seen it but those people haven't seen it in a way they haven't seen seen it for what it is. But I knew Steven couldn't have a conversation about it if he didn't at least see it. And so that was the deal. And luckily he somehow made the time and came down and saw it. But no, my feelings about it haven't changed i just am fortunate enough that i'm able to put the work out there in a way that i feel is appropriate in the context that i feel is acceptable and then it doesn't damage the work but this is a conversation like

frank frank and i's views are aligned now but they weren't always in terms of whether or not it was a good idea to film it or not a good idea, just if it should, is possible. I didn't know if it was or not. But as an artist who wanted to have like an archive of at least one good thing that I've done in my life, I was like, I'm going to try to try to capture this. Um, but, but so it could have, it could have been, I could have proved myself right by making something and putting it into the world that did exactly what I didn't want to do, which is, you know, frame the work in the wrong way and, and allow for it to be dissected in a way that is just detrimental to everything I've worked towards. And so it's not that of course that I thought it was a good idea or a bad idea.

It was just the fact that I didn't have a vision for it at that point. And, and so I, you know, I wouldn't want to stop anything that's creative and the fact that he wanted to shoot, I thought was fantastic, you know? And I was there with the shoot, but I didn't give any instructions, you know? yeah and i was there the shoot but i didn't give any instructions yeah you know and so it was uh but but frank frank such a complex derrick i'm talking okay go ahead go ahead okay i'm talking here all right go ahead no i no i think by the way i was off for about three or four minutes.

Did you guys notice that at all? Yeah, we talked about you the whole time. Only bad things. Because I don't know what you talked about. What happened was, we're doing this on Zoom audio, and I was low on battery. I plug it in. But here's a professional tip.

You also have to plug the other side of the wall. Oh, pro tip. Yeah, pro tip. In any case, it was really... i was thrilled that he was doing it and only after he did it when we talked about it that that that derrick and i really know have an idea a trail to go down but but frank it's important i think to point out how terrible of an idea it actually is to film live performances i Oh, no. That's not a joke. No. It's not a good idea.

No. What was obvious that we didn't want, and Derek didn't want, to do something that was a record of a show. Right. Which is wonderful to see in Lincoln Center because you can see all these shows that you never saw off-Broadway, Broadway.

But that was not the intent here. Yeah. The intent was to create a different living breathing animal yeah there was a point where it went from archive this just have it to what if we could actually translate it and that's and that's the thing that that is very difficult and that at that rightfully so where we both really didn't. It's very difficult to imagine what that could look. Now it exists, but before we didn't know if it could work

until we realized it could. It was the same process as we had creating the show for the Geffen, which was, how about that? No, that doesn't work. How about this? No, that doesn't work. How about this is great? No, that doesn't work. How about this? No, that doesn't work. How about this is great? No, that doesn't work.

And then finding it one bit by bit, and then that starts to coalesce and we get down to that. So it was the same process, which is really going forward, not knowing what the hell you're doing. Did you guys have any inspirations or anything that you could even look at?

The film is very singular, but I was trying to think of, is there a comparison point in terms of a show like this on film no i didn't even look i didn't even try i and i certainly didn't try for the theater show in fact everything about the theater show and creating it was does this look or feel like something else that exists and if it did we'd failed you know it was this this has to be its own thing the elephant the magical creature that i talk about in the in the show snake for a nose tree trunks for legs a wall for a body that that is that is the show and that's what we were trying to make but it had to be alive and it had to be a whole creature it couldn't just be vignettes it couldn't just be you know here's a nice short

monologue with a punctuation of some sort and here's a here's a piece that narrates a little biography of me and here's it had to all be one thing that exists together but it kind of shouldn't work or exist somehow and so we you know that that magical creature kind of was the model for the show. How do we bring it to life? I think part of the show is, so much of the show is about identity and labeling people. And the last thing Derek and I wanted was the ability to label the show. And it is called In and of Itself, and it would be a betrayal of the title

if we had compared it or tried to have any influence from another show the show is a real high wire act and did you did did you ever fall off did you was there ever a time when everything didn't go exactly because it feels like it needs to go according to plan for it to really work all the way through and through no it worked perfect every single time, Sean. Well, the film does not reveal that there could be any flaws. You know, that's the thing about capturing it on film. Yeah, no, it was a high wire act, and that's what made it alive in a way.

I mean, that's what made it real. And people didn't, but the irony is only we knew that it was real, or people who had come back multiple times, but other people wondered, is this, is this what I, is what I'm seeing, what I'm really seeing, you know, but there were, there would be nights where like, uh, like I had someone open a letter and look at it and just drop it and walk back to their seat. You know, there's, there's nothing wow to do to do there except move on but that's an honest moment that that is that is in my opinion was was just as valuable and good as

you know someone sitting there weeping um and because whatever whatever that that it was they were inflicted with pain in that moment um and they couldn't and there was a trauma that was like they were um they were experiencing that they just had to get the hell out of there and and put life on stage and the for me that was just as interesting uh but yeah there were nights where it was it was painful and very difficult for me, many nights for every reason imaginable. Yeah, Derek, I mean, I told him backstage once how valiant he was, and he was. If he had been an actor, and I told him, as he knows, if I see you acting, I'll kill you. If he was an actor repeating lines and only getting the same effects that he got every night, that would be theater.

But we didn't want that. And every single night, there was way enough experience for Derek to connect with audiences differently every single time and for audiences to connect differently with Derek every single time so it became an experience and not theater Frank you I was I thought about you a lot after right after I finished the film I it's a problem I'm trying to solve sorry I'm sorry but I hope it's everything everything is uh is curable but um I I was thinking of you because I think you really know something about making something that rocks people's worlds and lives with them.

Oh, here you go, Frank. You're getting all that credit you deserve. You're getting all that credit you deserve. Derek, you can leave. But this is related to you as well, Derek. The finale of the film is one of those things. It's just breathtaking. It's very shattering.

I wanted to have this conversation with you guys because I was just totally rocked by it. I was wondering, did you have a conversation about the responsibility that comes with doing something like this? Because it's not just about you, Derek, and your story and what you're trying to accomplish, but you're clearly hitting people where they live with the show. Yeah, this is mainly Derek's at the end. I mean, my contribution was really to create this nonverbal communication. So when you got to the end of the show, you were somehow connected without knowing why, because you never use words to connect you. And to the point where then Derek, who did a beautiful job at the end,

that was really his work. My work was getting to that point, you know, to where the audience was emotionally involved and they didn't actually know why. Frank's favorite thing was walking up to people after the show when they were crying and he'd say I noticed you're crying do you do what may ask why and they'd be like I don't know and he'd be like perfect and then walk away it's true do you feel at all burdened by uh any of this Derek when someone says to you like like, you just, you, you trampled me with your, with your story and your feelings. Oh, that's what we wanted. It was powerful what Derek did.

Very powerful. I feel like, I feel like it's what we set out to do. And I know that because like, we talked about this early on. Like, I feel like Frank and I had a clear, a clear abstract goal. I think that makes any sense of kind of knowing how hard you want to hit someone or what, what effect you want to have,

not necessarily knowing how you get there, but, but we both had the same, like we're not, it's just not, it's like a frequency we haven't quite hit yet. We both, Frank and I hear it and we're on the same, we want it, but like, it's just not there yet.

And there was a certain point where it just, it, it, it happened and we hit this frequency where they're, I'm everything I'm saying, they're not hearing. I was saying it just before, but now they're hearing it and they're hearing'm everything i'm saying they're not hearing i was saying it just before but now they're hearing it and they're hearing it as intended they're not hearing it with this oh this is a theater show and oh he's whatever they think i am and i they it was just seen for what it was and heard for what it was and the moment that that happened i walked backstage and tell

frank you know i think we can end it now and he agreed like it was just like we we've done what we wanted to do and and now we can now we can shut it down and that's that's when the that's when like let's just make sure we get enough footage to to have it for us and we can call an end to it you know, to give Derek the credit here, when I met him, one of the most important things I needed to know was will he go the distance?

And I felt he could. And because I go the distance, there's just, I'll go until I die. But Derek, I didn't know, but I sensed he would. And that's the whole reason he could go at the end and say,

okay, I think I've said what I want to say, because he did go the distance. I just have a couple more, and I don't want to waste any more of your time. You're not wasting my time. You're wasting Derek. He's upset. I know.

I can see. He seems somehow peeved. Are you bothered by this, Derek? I'm extremely upset. I wish you could see his face. I feel like one thing you guys may have in common is that you both get asked how do you do that how'd you do it on on a regular basis um how do you both answer that question when someone asks you how'd you do that oh these are good questions actually you know

they are good questions that's it it's yeah it's um it depends i mean it depends on the mood we're in i mean i watched that's one of the many things that frank have bonded frank and i have bonded on over the years is you know he's just a puppeteer as i'm just a magician this is this is something that we both experience and uh and i didn't really get how bad it was because for me i saw frank as what frank is and in his multitudes and i did not i was like come on you've direct how many movies have you directed now like you can't and sure enough we were doing an interview together and towards the end of the interview the guy's like i and i uh i don't want to take it much more of your time but i brought

this bag uh here uh with me and he gave us each a bag and they're all full of pipe cleaners and googly eyes and i was just wondering if like you guys would be willing to like make a puppet like a muppet here for us right now and it was it was bad news for my last question right so it never goes away it never goes away and and the equivalent to derrick is can you show me a trick uh give me a card trick it's it's it's it's uh it's it's done by people because if they don't know what you are then they are uncomfortable they have to label you to be to be comfortable for instance you are interviewing us so you're just an interviewer that's. That's all you do in your life is you interview us. So I'm comfortable now.

In this case, that is true. This is all I do, 24 hours a day. But you understand, we flatten people in order for us to be comfortable, which is a real discredit to us and to the person you're talking to. Yeah. And that, for me, that's what the film has allowed for. People ask me about, the one thing I say about the film is that it's truer to, it's truer to the work than the live performance was.

And I think that's because in the, in the film, these ideas, these ideas about how we need labels to identify one another. And yet, ironically, paradoxically, those labels conceal who we really are. They're just a way to, as Frank said, flatten us so that we can interact with one another in a way that makes us feel comfortable. And those ideas, which is what the show is about, are in the foreground in the film in a way that they couldn't be in the show, in the live experience. Because in the live show, you can't help but be maybe a little insecure that I'm walking up the stairs and, well, what's going to happen? Is he going to ask me a question or wondering if the person on stage is an actor or what's behind a curtain? These are the

types of thoughts you can't help but have in a theater seated with a bunch of people and your insecurities are higher in terms of being around people and lights are on you and things but on film none of that exists and so you you can only experience the work at least uh as as we intended it in terms of you're seeing what we want to show you and you're hearing what we want to tell you everything that you see on film is what it was live but there's no there's no it's it's irrelevant to to have some of the questions that you might have in a theater like for instance in the film you know that the letter people are different every night and that they're clearly not actors and this is really happening where from the back of the theater when you you might not be able to see the tear rolling down

their cheek or or it seems like they have no reaction at all uh and in the book you might not be able to see the tear rolling down their cheek or or it seems like they have no reaction at all uh and in the book you might think that they're you know did that person really come back from yesterday you don't have these thoughts on film because you just see that it's true you see that the thing that i say where everything i'm going to tell you is the truth i'm just telling you because um i know you won't believe me. That is more clear in the film than it was live, I believe. Will you guys work together again? Frank?

Let's see. Derek, you look nervous. Yes, of course we will. We're working together on something right now. Absolutely. It's a joy to be with somebody who wants to do the same thing as you which is as

Derek knows is break things you know it's just not to do what's expected but rather do what is not expected yeah and I feel like it's the same thing it's very

you know working with Frank, I've learned, he's put me through a ringer and I've learned a lot. I've become literally a better person for it. And I didn't know what going the distance meant until I worked with Frank. not but but uh but the growth that i've seen from the process of working with frank is more meaningful than any sort of success or praise that we've seen from the work i enjoy the process i i certainly enjoy the process of making the show much more than the process of doing it. Any excuse to collaborate, I'm in. We're together, yeah. I'm looking forward to whatever that is. Guys, we end every episode of this

show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. Frank, you're one of the great filmmakers. Derek, you're technically a filmmaker now. Working on it. Have you guys seen anything great in quarantine in 2020? Quarantine, wow.

You know, I... Great. I've seen things that are entertaining and wonderful. I haven't seen anything great. For instance, I just did a podcast about the film that most influenced me, A Type of Evil, and that is a great film.

I can't say it's great. I can give you entertaining films, but not great. Well, can you tell me just very quickly what you love about Touch of Evil? Because that's a favorite of mine. Because it's a dance. Orson,

I'll tell you very briefly, I don't want to take time away from Derek and such, but every single, the thing is, there's very little coverage and that creates the dance. It forces you into a style and you'll see, instead of cutting to people, there's always three or four people in the shot, mostly, and somebody in the background for depth. It's a dance of people. It's incredible. Love that. Derek, what about you? Oh, oddly, my answer is in the same vein. I just watched citizen Kane again because of, of make make the show make, or I thought,

you know, I should probably watch citizen Kane before I watch make, because there might be some references that cross over. And it's just remarkable how many things he broke in the making of that film and how many rules that he just didn't abide by. And that's what makes it special. I mean, it's funny that it's not, you know, it is a, it's funny that it makes the list of like the greatest movie is still

considered the greatest movie. And I'm not sure why filmmakers say it. There's so many reasons. Yeah. I mean, but for me, it's that it's, that it's just, there's a clear before and after. Yeah. That's because Orson didn't have, that's his first film. He never made another, he didn't make that's his first film he never made another he didn't make a film before that and name dropping Orson said to me

we was on a show and things Jim and I but at dinner Orson said the most important thing that I carried with me he says that other people create out of out of experience I create out of experience.

I create out of innocence. And that's the reason why Citizen Kane works, because he was 24 years old and there was an innocence left in him. And he, you know, I mean, not unlike Derek, he approached it in a manner that came from inside him and not caring what other people thought it is it is my dream to hear you guys talking about orson welles also one of my heroes um in and of itself is is just an absolute incredible achievement so thanks to you bull thanks for doing

this and congrats what did you what did you uh you didn't tell us anything what do you want to know what do you want to know what was your i mean we haven't really talked to people about but especially not people who are savvy about film and storytelling what did you what did you experience while watching it what would you think uh and good or bad i mean i'm not looking for we've had plenty of bad so feel free i i will admit to being a ricky j allegiant and someone who's very into the culture that you guys are are or the the tradition that you're working in so i was an easy mark i would say for it but i was still knocked out because i just thought it was an intensely emotional experience it was very emotional for me and um so i'd never seen anything like it especially not in that space and

i loved it i mean honestly that's why I wanted to chat with you guys. That's great. Thank you. That's great. Yeah, I'll send you a picture of Ricky watching the show that my friend secretly took from the wings the night he came. It's one of the best pictures because Ricky's smiling and I know he would have hated the fact that it was taken. That touches me to know he saw it. I know you guys were close.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much, guys. It's great to see you and I appreciate the time. Thank you very much, Sean. Yeah, thanks for the good questions. Thank you to Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz and Amanda Dobbins and Bobby Wagner. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture next week.

What are we doing on The Big Picture next week, Amanda? I believe there is a movie draft. A movie draft. Oh my God. Should we, let's just litigate this in real time. If anybody has stuck around to the 112th minute of this pod. I was going to do 2015. Are you comfortable with 2015

that's what i had been preparing for though i actually haven't googled 2015 movies yet which year is it 2015 is i don't i'm not gonna tell you what movie i don't want to give away any of my picks by revealing that to you okay i oh i think i know which year it is spotlight wins i'm not even i'm not even gonna blink to indicate whether or not i sean it's available on google like jesus you better get to google and then okay all right see you next week for the movie draft thanks guys