The Big Picture - The Final Best Picture Power Rankings and a ‘Sinners’ Second Look With Autumn Durald Arkapaw!

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Sean and Amanda open today’s jam-packed show by covering the results of the BAFTA Awards and highlighting some key takeaways, including Sean Penn's and Wunmi Mosaku’s wins (2:30). Then, they discuss a new release, ‘How to Make a Killing,’ starring Glen Powell, and work through why the movie was dumped (and then bombed) and why they found it to be pretty solid (14:47). Next, they take a second look at ‘Sinners’ and revisit all of the things that make it so special, including the magical moviemaking, its sharp understanding and rendering of sex and desire, and its brilliant use of music (25:32). Later, they update their Best Picture Power Rankings (1:06:37). Finally, Sean is joined by Academy Award–nominated cinematographer Autumn Durald Arkapaw to nerd out and get into the nitty-gritty of aspect ratios and anamorphic glass, discuss where ‘Sinners’ fits into her career at large, and explain why she enjoys shooting difficult scenes that require problem-solving (1:29:58). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Autumn Durald Arkapaw Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® Drivers wanted. Learn more at vw.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture A Conversation show about the home stretch. Today on the show, we will revisit Sinners, the most nominated movie in the history of the Academy Awards. Nearly one year after its release, we will construct our very last Best Picture Power rankings of the season and discuss the BAFTA results from over the weekend, those crazy Brits. They did some stuff with their award show. Later in the show, I have a conversation with Autumn Durald Arquipa.

The Oscar-nominated Cinematographer of Sinners, it's her second collaboration with Ryan Cougler. Autumn has had a fascinating path to this moment, and we discussed a whole lot of stuff, including the technical aspects of her work on Sinners, her arc as a cinematographer. We talked about cameras, lenses, aspect ratios, all your favorite stuff. No, I actually am very excited to listen to it because Sinners is a film that looks good in a time when most don't. So I would like to hear what she has to say. Autumn, very smart and confident guest, one of the better conversations we've had here recently. I hope you will stick around.

She's already made history. She's the first woman of color nominated for Best Cinematography at the Academy Awards, which is shameful, but she also has a chance to win, and so we will talk about her chances there too. But first, let's talk about the BAFTAs right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by State Farm. You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into, the ones who'll debate which superhero universe is better

or binge true crime documentaries with you at three in the morning? Those friends are gold. State Farm is like that, helping you figure out the coverage that actually fits. Car, home, life, whatever you need, they've got your back. And if you want a hand, a local aid, agent is just a tap away on their award-winning app. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Okay. Did I throw you off there? Nope. You were great. Okay. Thanks so much. You're letting me stretch out and close me in as well. I love hearing about lenses when Autumn Dural to Arkapaw or Ben Affleck talk about that.

Yeah. So, you know. When a woman or man, you want to be near. When it's me, not so much. I saw he was at the golf. He was at the golf over the weekend. Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't see any of the golf this weekend, unfortunately. I did see the hockey. Did you see the hockey? I did see. I saw the hockey. God, USA, huh? What do you know? I got the juice.

Broken clock, right? Once a day while my children are watching. First time in 46 years, the USA hockey was right, and we're happy to see it. Okay, Bafters. So let's just start with the big award. One battle after another one best film. We're looking very closely at this final corridor of Guild and International Awards because this is the first of the next big three,

which is, of course, the actor awards next Sunday. Of course. And the PGA's next Saturday. And then all the precursors for the most part are done. And voting begins. And voting will begin. And one battle one. And we're going to talk about sinners.

And one of the reasons why we wanted to revisit sinners was you hadn't seen the film in full. One of the other reasons why was because it's just, it's now become this. Not on purpose. And I'd like to talk about some changes that they made that I thought were very smart. can do that. But one battle winning here, what does it tell you? Anything? Nothing? I think we're focusing. I think we're stirring up intrigue in the wrong categories. And I would just want it to propose that to you. I still don't feel 100% about one battle after one battle after another over Sinners in best picture. I do think that that could go either way. But what the Bafters

said to me were that pretty much every acting category, except for actress is open. I think some are more open than others. I think that the BFTAs are not always the most predictive and can get a little silly. Or not silly. Even in Best Picture,

I think in Best Film, they've only matched two out of the last 14 years. So, like, it's not a historically predictive race, except maybe for below the line. I do think below the line shows us the way in a lot of these races, but you're right about the acting races. Yeah.

Everything is up in the air right now. So my response to this slate was not, oh, it's a lock for best for one battle, but more. I haven't spent enough time worrying about supporting actor and supporting actress and maybe even actor, which I have been flummoxed about and don't like feel totally certain. And again, there's there are no conclusive results at this point. Next weekend, I think with the PGAs and the actors will help. It will help. different categories. But weird things can still happen. You're right. There's all these variables that are going on in the acting races that have made this.

I thought this was going to be one of the most boring Oscar seasons in years. And you heard me in January and December being like, oh, another round. And now it's turning out to be, or at least seemingly very interesting. We might end up with Timothy Chalameh, Stellan Scarsguard, Tiana Taylor, and Jesse Buckley in the acting wins. And then that'll be like, okay, well, that's more or less what I thought was going to happen in November. But as we saw on Sunday, One Mimusaku won supporting actress for sinners, which is fascinating. She's also nominated at SAG, right? Yes.

So that's also notable. In supporting actor, Sean Penn won. Now, I've been nudging you on this a little bit over the last few months. I know. I saw you were posting. Yeah, I posted about it. You know, I've been thinking about it. When did you post that?

Because we had a lovely Saturday afternoon at Sunday afternoon at your home. Oh, yeah. And then I saw that you posted it and I was like, were you? It was in transit from the Huntington Gardens where we celebrated the Lunar New Year. Okay. Oh. With my family and my sister Kara, who was in town, which is a crate. Between that and the barbecue at our house. Okay.

Just some stray thoughts I had. And I just, I didn't check till later that night. Yes. I really thought you were like hiding at the grill or being like, no, I'm getting more hot dog buns. Something I know you relate to, classic thing where when you've got extended family in town, they can watch your kid for a minute. And then you might have a thought about an acting race. And I had a thought, and I just threw it up on X.com.

Sean Penn winning is just really interesting. I thought Stelan Scars Guard would have won here. I have thought he was the frontrunner in this race. You know, you've been banging the drum for Benicio del Toro for some time. There have been some people who have been speculating that the Penn win indicates maybe weirdly an opportunity for Delroy Lindo because there's no consensus here. And so maybe the one battle guys cancel each other out. Okay. Paul Meskell not winning here is interesting.

He's not represented at the Academy Awards. This race is wide open. My case for Penn, as I've mentioned before, is just sure he's won twice, but he's one of the most revered actors of his generation. He may not be like the most politically beloved figure in the Academy, but I think to multiple generations of actors, he's seen as like a real Titan. And also the Academy Awards loves a villain. You know, this is the Academy that gave Heath Ledger for the Joker, the Oscar. Right. You know, they gave Javier Bardem.

You're not a villain in the race. Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, depending on where you're sitting, like maybe Jean Penez, again, according to your villainous character. Your politics or your just enforcement of Los Angeles smoking indoors loss. Yeah. He plays fast and loose. Frankly, I love Sean Penn as an actor, and I think he's amazing in one battle.

It's a very showy performance, a very noisy performance. But, you know, it's like, that's what usually, Christoph Waltz for Inglorious Bastards. That's what wins here. It's very memorable people who are right outside the edge of the center role in the film who tend to drive a lot of action. That's what often wins in this category. It would be pretty wild for Sean Penn to become one of the very few actors to win three Academy Awards. But Francis McDormand just did it a few years ago. Yeah, and it would make sense in terms of how Hollywood and actors feel about him.

And the way that the Oscars do tend to reward. certain types of performances and certain types of people. We haven't said, so a lordie, still in the mix? I think he's in play for SAG. Yeah. I think that could happen. And then if that happens at SAG, that's a real boost in terms of... Sad is also on Netflix and that's a Netflix movie.

And also the people who vote in SAG, remember, are not just actors. They're also like weathermen and influencers like, because it's SAG after. And you? And well, I'm not in SAG, no, thankfully. Although we should probably be in SAG at this point. Among other things, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think Allerty could definitely win there. Yeah.

Who is the fifth person? Who am I not thinking of? Stellan, Benicio, Sean, Allorty. And who is our fifth person who's literally who's just not going to win? Well, Stelons Gar's Guard's not nominated at SAG even. Right. No, I meant at the Oscars. Who is the, who is it?

It's not Paul Meskell. Delroleto. Of course. Delroen, right. Delroleto, yes. Of course. Okay. So it could go anywhere.

Any of them could win. It could go. That's cool. That's great. It's probably not Benicio at this point, which is sad. He had like a real critics run and then... He did. And then it fell off. He did.

I'm not ruling anything out. I think this is going to be really fun to predict this year. Supporting actress similarly is wide open. You know, the two actresses from sentimental value were not represented at SAG. You know, there was a moment when we were like, oh, it's Inga Ibstotter Lilius. Oh, you know, now it's like, could Win Mimusaku win in this category? For Anne? We can talk about her.

character when we talk about that film, seems like that could happen? Yes, especially if she goes BAFTAs and then SAG, actor awards, whatever we're calling them, and then, and straight into voting. Yes. And I think also if that happens, then you could feel the momentum also saying, why not Doray Limdo? And then I do think that has a real up-the-ballot swing for sinners. That would be one of the ways in which you could see that it is happening. And we'll know because those are two of the earliest awards that are given out.

If we get two Sinners acting awards in the first 20 minutes of the telecast, everybody's going to spend the next three hours being like, well, sinners did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that'll be really interesting. So sinners won three Bafters, which is, I think more than I would have guessed. I don't think I would have guessed that the Wunmi Masaku. I didn't do any predictions for BAFTA, but score makes sense. Original screenplay does make sense to me.

I would not have guessed that Wimimusaka would win, but that feels open. And then let's talk about actor. Yeah. So Robert Aramio won for I Swear, which is a film about a man based on a true story about a man who has Tourette's and his family. And this film won multiple awards at this award show. It's obviously not been represented in any of the reward show we've been talking about over the last few months. And so... It's not out here in the U.S. until April.

That's right. So we haven't even seen it yet. Ford is quite good. I'm curious to see it. But this is just another wrinkle in a race that like I think maybe we thought was over two months ago. And now is not. And now is Timothy Shalame a little weak, or at least weaker than we thought. Marty Supreme won zero awards last night.

I think it went 0 for 11, which is not great. And is Marty Supreme suddenly going to become the Irishman of this year? That's in play. We shall see, I think, does it open the possibility for Wagner-Mora or for Lina Ardacabria? The thing is, Wagner, is also not nominated at SAG Actor Awards. Yes. So it's if I think it closes the door for Vagnamora. Really?

Really? I think personally. I could be wrong. Interesting. You and I have both been wrong speaking against the power of Brazil many times on this podcast. Yeah. I've spoken no words against Brazil and I never will. But he didn't get Bafta and he's not eligible.

He's not nominated at SAG. So he's not going to be in front of people again. The other thing is that sentimental. value one international feature at BAFTA, which is also, you know, a challenge for the secret agent, which I think I thought was going to be a little bit stronger through this race. And I think we talked about that at the Golden Globes. But this has really been moving around. My gut still tells me it's still Timothy Shalameh. The one thing against that, I think, is that no person since whatever it is, 1990, I think is when the SAG Award started, has won two years in a row.

And so Shalame won last year. So it would be unprecedented for him to win. We will see in a week from now. Jesse Buckley, turtles all the way down, man. She's just, she's, this is one of the most dominant performances in an awards campaign that I've ever seen. I think people knew the moment they saw the movie nine months ago, that this was over, and that's really interesting. Below the line stuff, you know, I think one battle winning at cinematography is interesting, particularly because, I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but, you know, Michael Balman is the credited cinematographer. He is the cinematographer of the film. And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson movie, he was co-credited as a cinematographer with Paul Thomas Anderson.

And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson film, Michael Baumann worked as a gaffer on that film or maybe as like a coordinator. But PTA got the cinematography credit. Right. And so along with Colin Anderson, who's his camera operator who you may have heard Ben Affleck talking about in his conversations with Josh Safdi. Colin Anderson also worked on Marty Supreme. those three guys make this kind of three-headed monster of cinematography, even though Bauman, who I've heard is great, and actually Matt Johnson from Nirvana, the band,

the movie, was here talking about it because he shot his new movie Tony with him. But anyway, awarding this group as opposed to an individual is kind of fascinating if indeed Bauman goes on to win the Oscar. I have been thinking it's going to be Audub-Darald-Arquipa. I believe she's the favorite in the Oscars. No, I have as well. But, I mean, it is, sinners did win three awards at the BFTAs.

But, you know, one battle won Best Picture, Best Director, and cinematography. And did PTA won Adapted Screenplay? You did. Yeah. So there is still. And editing as well. Right. There is a real strength there above and below the line, even if it was overlooked.

And you throw in Sean Penn. And you're like, oh, okay, there is a lot of enthusiasm for this. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. A couple awards for Frankenstein, of course, which we think we'll see at the Academy Awards, production design, makeup and hair, costume design. F1 for sound. Yeah.

Vroom, room. Make sense. You can see that. Special visual effects, Avatar Fire and Ash. Big Jim. Okay. Yeah. Okay, we'll save the rest of our conversation when we get into our best picture power rankings. Let's talk about a new release.

It kind of flew under the radar. And it flew under the radar because it got dumped. Fascinatingly dumped. We can talk about why it's been dumped. I think you and I kind of landed in the same place with this movie. So the movie is How to Make a Killing. It's the new film from John Patton Ford, who wrote and directed a movie a few years ago called Emily the Criminal,

which you and I both enjoyed. Who was the star of that movie? Aubrey Plaza, thank you. And then Theo Rossi, I believe, was the supporting performance that we'd love. He's great. I think we gave like an alternative big pick to Theo Rossi. We did. This new movie is a kind of soft adaptation or inspiration

off of the 1949 British film Kind Hearts and Coronets, which is kind of a caper comedy classic, starring Alec Guinness, which is also inspired by a 1907 novel called Israel Rank, the autobiography of a criminal. This new movie, of course, stars Our Guy, Glenn Powell, Margaret Qualley, Jessica Henwick, Bill Camp, Zach Woods, Tofer Grace, Ed Harris, really good cast.

It's an 824 movie, and the premise is as follows, disowned at birth by his wealthy family, Beckett Redfellow, great name, will stop at nothing to reclaim his inheritance, no matter how many relatives stand in his way. So not a lot of people saw this movie. It opened in fewer than 2,000 theaters, despite its wide release status.

What did you think of how to make a killing? Listen, I called my shot in 2016, called it again in 2018. I like watching Glenn Powell. I really, I do. And it's been interesting to watch him, try to find the right roles for him. And I think that this one is closer than some recent,

choices, specifically the running man, in which it has a fair amount in common. Yeah. And maybe not 100% there, but he's watchable. I was rooting for him despite the circumstances of the film, which the film needs to succeed. And then I really like John Patton-Forten. I think he has a real knack for what you could dismiss as like another Eat the Rich movie. And, you know, top line has some of that element, yeah. Like many rich people get creatively murdered.

But is way more specifically observed. I think he really understands the distance from that world that his characters feel and the anxiety and the anger and can also and also has a sense of humor about the very rich people, even as he convincingly portrays that they are ruining, like, society at large and also all of our insides. So I thought I was strange and worked and I liked it. Yeah, I think it's pretty good.

I'll start with the negatives. There's an inherent tonal clash that is a little hard to navigate because it is a movie about murder and it is also a farce but also feels like a kind of deeply felt story about class. There are times when you're like, how seriously am I supposed to be taking this? Like a movie that features both the Zach Woods character and also the like,

absolute misery tragedy near the end of the film. It's a little bit like lump in places and you can tell that they, like, he didn't really totally get his arms around the tone of the material. That being said, I thought it went down very easy. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's the thing. It's very enjoyable to just hang out with this movie for me.

And I've been a little surprised by the mixedness response to it because it is another example of them like, I just want like 25 of these a year. Yeah. And it's a good star part. I think Margar Quali is maybe overdoing it a touch in the movie. And that kind of weighs it down a little bit. But that is also what she is cast to do in the movie. So I try not to hold it against her specifically.

But, you know. I like her, but she's really hit or miss as a performer. And she is just always, oh, Margar Quali's here doing Margaroqually stuff. It can be a bit distracting in a movie like this. She is very beautiful. And, you know, they have her in just, like, head to toe, very. tacky Chanel, like old Chanel, not new Matthew Chanel.

And, um, which she, clueless style era. But it is very funny and purposeful and she like has a relationship with them. So I do think most of it is like real and purposeful. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's what she's there to do. And it uses some of the Margaret qualiness.

But I, I agree. I wasn't particularly. It felt like a side show. Yeah. It's too bad because the movie kind of starts to turn on her character. Yeah. I think that's why the movie's getting dinged. Through the first hour, I was like, why is this movie being dumped?

Yeah. I was like, this is very good. And I agree with you that it is a much closer. It's closer to hitman Glenn Powell, you know, where it's like he wants to be able to be a little fungible with his like, you know, his costumes and how he hides. He doesn't get full, full Halloween costumes, but they do let him wear a beanie for a while. Yeah. Even while watching it. He's in like an aviator suit with the plane sequence.

I was like, with this beanie that you keep wearing. And then I was like, oh, right, it's because Glenn really wants the costumes. Like, see, there's a dress up. It's okay. I think he's pretty charming and I think more or less expresses the gravity of it. How did you feel about the framing device

where he's sort of the confessional to the priest behind bars? I mean, first two minutes is a real, uh-oh. This is, we're taping this together with a voiceover, there's a framing device. And also, and like the framing device

is that he's on death row. And I just, you know, I don't believe in the death penalty. So I was just mad. I was like, oh, we've got to do this. But again, it goes sound so smooth and it is like a very functional framing device. And I think like Glenn Powell narrates the voice. It's a good voiceover performance. And so at some point you just stop asking

questions. You're like, sure. Like I'll go along with this. And, and I don't, it didn't feel that Scotch tapy. I think it was doing a little bit of work pulling the tone together in a way that held for me, I think until Margaret Qualley's character has to really do whatever she's doing. Yeah. My friend Chris Rosen reviewed the movie on Letterbox and he was like, this is a September movie. This isn't a February movie.

And I thought that was a good insight where like there is a certain kind of like, it's not an awards film. It's not a blockbuster. It's just kind of like a character piece that is fun to hang out with. And the movie, I can see why the movie was kind of set aside.

I'm sure maybe Glenn is not thrilled with how it turned out or whatever. but I think it's pretty solid and it's in that like it's a six or seven and sometimes the six or seven is a good time and I like it a lot I think Zach Woods is hilarious

his character is so heel like that's a dude I'm sure we knew in Brooklyn which is like a Nepo kid who thinks he's an artist and is an absolutely empty plastic bag like he has no ideas I really enjoyed him I didn't know that the other cousin

was Jude Law's son Raff Law Is Raff Short for Rafferty, Raphael? I think so. Rafferty, yes. Rafferty. Let's double check this right now.

Rafferty, Rafferty, Raff, Jellico Frost law is the following. Jellico Frost law? What in the world? He is Jude Law and Cady Frost kid? I don't know what else do you expect. Let's go back. If Jude Law and Cedie Frost are going to have a kid, name him Rafferty, Jellico Frost law. Rafferty, Rafferty, Rafferty, Jellico, Frost law.

Yes. That is the worst law firm in America. Okay. I thought he was... I don't think I'd seen him before. I think he was amusing as the stock trading bad boy who comes to a faithful end. I was excited when there was a helicopter, like, est-st, stunt-esque, not like quite a full stunt, but I was like, wow, you guys got a helicopter. Good job on you. The movie has some scale. It's not a small movie.

I think who was... Jessica Henwick's character, not a real person. No. Which there was a little bit more time spent shaping who that person was. Right. Aside from being like a very kind kindergarten teacher. Right. Or like high school English teacher.

What is she? And there is some, there is some room there because she's supposed to be sort of, you know, disgusted by the Zach Woods character. And she's drawn to Glenn Powell's character. Why was she dating Zach Woods in the first place? Right. And then she just keeps going along with Glenn Powell's like, you know, moving on.

So there is, there is some motivation and stuff to question there. And I agree, it doesn't really. That part doesn't really work. She's sort of an audience surrogate, but not really. Yeah, this movie is going to be forgotten pretty quickly. And maybe people will discover it when this goes to HBO Max. But I thought it was a good old time with the movies. And as I mentioned to Chris Ryan,

another in a long line of pop culture artifacts that are set basically in my hometown. And fans of the Wonder Years or Growing Pains might know that, Those are more or less inspired by youth in Huntington. And this is a movie that was originally called Huntington. And I was talking to my sister about it this weekend. And I was like, how many billionaires do you think lived in Huntington? And she was like, oh, I'm sure like a bunch. And I was like, in our hometown?

And then she started kind of finessing it with like, oh, no, when you go to the coast up north and Cold Spring Harbor and, you know, I lived in the most middle-class town in America. Huntington is name-checked. It is, they live in Huntington. Yes. And it is a grand estate portrayed. Yes. The house they used for the interior, I liked, by the way, I just want to say. Good, like the confrontation scene with Ed Harris.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was cool. I mean, that house just is not. There's O'Hika Castle near Huntington, which is a place where that was where many events were held. Okay. But most of the people that I knew who attended attended because they worked as servers at O'Hika Castle. Okay. I've just Google imaged O'Hika Castle, and this is not the exterior used. No, no.

Okay. It looks nice. Sure. I just, I'm like, I want to ask John Patton Ford, like, why Huntington? What was it about this town when, did I presume he went there once? I don't know. It's a good name, you know? And then they didn't use it.

Well, but I mean, but it's just like the town itself. It's just named after a London town, you know. Sure, but it didn't, the name itself, like a folks something. Yeah. I was from Huntington Station 2, which is really down market. Okay. We were really not from the nice part of Huntington, unfortunately. It was, I had a lovely time when I visited.

You did go. Yeah, the Cheesecake Factory was wonderful. So that's all you need. It was a good cheesecake factory. I got to say. Yeah, shout out to Huntington. I don't really miss it that much to be honest with you. All right, let's circle to sinners.

Now, you have not, I think I've watched this movie five times. And you have not seen it since you saw it in movie theaters last April. No, I mean, I've seen scenes from it in parts, because it has started as it was released on digital. you know, it's just permeating the culture and you catch up to stuff of it. And it was interesting certain shots when they showed up in my rewatch. I was like, oh, you know, Leo pointing at the camera because I am so familiar with them individually. But no, but I did go back. I saw it in theaters.

I saw a re-release. Okay. Was it IMAX? Or was it just a regular? No, it was just a regular special screening. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, over the next few weeks, we'll, like, revisit a couple of the movies that are nominated.

for Best Picture. I think we'll talk about the Doc nominees pretty soon as well, but this feels like a good time to go back to this movie because we did two big episodes about it right when it came out. And then we've talked about it

through the awards race, but not kind of through any critical perspective. I actually just rewatched it about 10 days ago because my wife was like, let's watch this. I want to see it. I'm knocking off all the best picture contenders and she didn't get a chance

to see it in movie theater, so I got to watch it at home. So, you know, with almost a year out, tell me some of your reflections. What did you make of the most of the most? movie and especially in light of it having this kind of elevated historical status now. Yeah. Well, it was interesting.

I remember our conversation with Van and we were talking about how much is stuffed into this movie, which is true and is what really stuck out to me the second time. I think, you know, much in the way that when we watched one battle, the first time I was like, oh, this is really funny. And the second time I was like, oh, this is so emotional. The first time I watched the movie, I was like, oh, wow, this is like a really, really elevated, like, really smart, like, almost like genre-breaking vampire movie. But it is, you know, there is a big centerpiece with, like, a lot of vampires. Yep.

And the second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the vampires don't matter at all. I mean, and they do, and they do. And it's a very cool idea that the vampires represent in the movie about. ownership of art and black art specifically and um and uh also the type of movie that is being made and the type of movie that people you know audiences want to see so they do matter and also like the set piece obviously like they they spent a lot of time an effort shooting like a very gnarly vampire movie but i found some of it is just personal preference my my attention was almost waning a little as they just they kept jumping on each other.

And I was really surprised and excited at how alive the movie came again at the second, the actual climax, which is the smoke character against the clan. And the way that's shot and it is, it's sad and exciting. and obviously like the emotional like dream stuff at the end. And as you realize, oh, this was foretold in the first scene also. Which he does. He does that in Black Panther too. You know, he uses these kind of illustrative narrative moments early in the movie

that's kind of like, here's the movie you're about to get. Yeah. So it was interesting just to be sitting there and realize, oh, no, this is the movie. And this is where it's going. And this is where I'm actually going. going to get catharsis and where a lot of the ideas are going to maybe not meet resolution, but at least kind of come to a head. And then, you know, famously at this point, I didn't know there was a post-credit sequence.

So the first time I saw it, I didn't see it. And I noticed that the ending and the post-credit sequence now started before the credits when I saw it in re-release. But there were no credits at all when you saw it in re-release before it started. Because I think that there was like a directed by Ryan Coogler credit. Like maybe like a couple of credits. Uh-huh. And then it went to the post credit.

Was there anything? They show Buddy Guy before you hit. Playing guitar. Yeah. It almost goes straight from like Miles Caten's character, from Sammy driving with the guitar along in the road. And it goes straight to Buddy Guy. I can't remember how they do it on the Blu-ray release. And they, and you like play a little more.

And it's just, it's made a lot clear that like more is happening. And you need to stay and watch. And I understand why, because that's the actual end of the movie. Yeah, yeah. I have some questions for you about that. Yeah, and brings in, you know, in the way that the showdown with the clan and then smoke seeing Annie and the you know the his

his baby is a resolution for that character you get some sort of resolution for Sammy before the credit sequence but it's really the ending for both Sammy and and Stack and the merry character and or is it or is it and well

you know is it a happy ending who is the happiest like what are you supposed to take away from the from these resolutions is an interesting question I mean, what I really want out of that final stretch, and maybe this is just Marvel Brain, and I want to talk a little bit about Marvel and Cougler and how that intersects with this movie, but I would very happily watch the 1990, you know, Stack and Mary vampire movie that's like circa demon night or something, like a black horror movie from the time of my adolescence because

I loved horror movies at that time. I think Cougler would be awesome at making a movie with like, you just think about the music that he could use at that time. you'd think about the set design, the production design, you could incorporate. It does have a little bit of the, like, there could be another chapter of this movie, too. Yes. Which, given how successful it's been, you could see it. And it sets it up, but not in an obnoxious way.

It's not like next time on sinners. It's like, this is open. Stack is still a vampire. Mary is still a vampire. We can do more, but we don't have to. And you can be happy with the end of Sammy. And I think, and also the openness is like another accomplishment of the film. because what Sammy says to them as they leave,

and he was like, he says something like, until everyone started dying, that was the best day of my life. And he's almost looking at the vampires before him with longing. And they go off together. Yes. And so, again, you're like, so which outcome was I supposed to be rooting for?

Who is, what is the happy ending here? Like, what are we supposed to want? Which is, like, really cool. I mean, you're touching on something that I find to be such an electrifying aspect of the movie, which is, on the one hand, there's this big load-bearing metaphor about the vampires who want to siphon the life from all people, but especially these black people and especially this one black kid who Remick, the Jack O'Connell character, is obsessed by because he hears the music that allows him to conjure his past and remember his own life,

which is a really thorny idea that like white people forget about stealing black art and commodifying it in America white people are fascinated by black art they're moved by it it has inspired so many white people

to make art that sounds like the blues that's rock and roll is totally this transmogrification of the blues music so that idea is really interesting and then so Sammy then and some of the other characters

that are inside the juke joint looking at Remig and then looking at their loved ones who have become vampires and being torn about whether to join this eternal life where you're part of a hive mind and you feel like a part of something

but knowing that there's a kind of evil in that decision and a kind of a colonization and a just become like losing the self, right? Like losing your individuality in order to feel safer is a big idea in a vanquoise. A vampire movie, and I thought he really communicated it really well.

And I think I'm generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem of the movie, to me, is the least successful stuff in the movie. Yes. And some of that is just like, even though Kugler's now made a few action movies, I feel like he's not in that, like, John McTiernan level where a vampire throwdown is going to be the best thing in the movie. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he won't. But everything conceptually around the vampire usage is so smart and so realized. And so much of it is more like the formal classical universal horror movie stuff of, you know, if you would just invite me in and I could cross that line. Like the Omar, I talked to Autumn actually about that Omar Miller sequence when he comes through the door.

And he's like, just like, let me come on in. You know, and they're kind of having that negotiation between the two of them. And that's just like you could find that in a vampire movie 100 years ago. And it would be just as compelling and just as interesting as a concept. So he's got his, he's really got a handle on that stuff. There is just like a big CGI fight. Like there is in so many Marvel movies There's two of them really

There's the raid on the juke joint And then there's when they go outside When Remick is, you know When they're all kind of burning in the sun That is like I think when the movie gets criticized It's people thinking about that stuff in the movie Which makes it feel just like a genre movie

Or a comic book movie or whatever And then you like elide all the other dramatic or metaphorical stuff That makes it such a powerful movie But I As I have been saying since the shape of water Best Picture Win I'm like, good.

Like, get more of that shit in movies that can win Oscars. Parasite winning, which is like a Hitchcock movie after Hitchcock never won, is good. Like, let's just kind of get more what, like, people want for movies. And that is part of the reason why that stuff is all in there is because Kooler has such a keen sense for what audiences want. It's what's made him so successful. And they do want a big fight at the end. They do want a throw down, you know? That's something that you learn making creed or that you learn making Black Panther.

And so I understand why that stuff is there. I wish it was a little bit more sharply rendered or a little bit more clever. And it also, you know, it does come after not just like an hour of, it's amazing how much world is built into what is a one night only movie. This is, it's a 24 hour. It is. It is. It is. And so much history.

And then, and so much recreation. I just like that, you know, it's not insightful to say that like the production design and the costume design and the, cinematography, like, really stand out of this. But, like, so that's Ruthie Carter, that's Hannah Beakler, that's Autumn Derald, Archipa. And they really bring this specific place in Mississippi in 1932 to life. Yeah. And the train station, the cotton fields, the juke joint, like, the spaces that they build are really amazingly realized. Yeah.

And so you're so immersed in that world. And Coogler has talked about, like, how much research, you know, he did. And in addition to this being something that, um, was shared with him from family members and it's like a big part of meaningful to him. But so it's so beautifully recreated and then you do,

before all the vampire stuff really gets kicking, you have what I am now calling like the dream ballet. The big sequence, which is I lied to you. And is a literalization of so much of what the movie is trying to do in terms of the connection of black music and black history

like overtime and space backward and forward and also other cultures too yeah exactly Japanese Chinese yeah totally and it uses also the characters because they're the the Chinese group in the Mississippi like the Chinese history in the Mississippi Delta is represented in the characters and also in

that dream ballet and it also creates something that I think think the movie does so well, which is this is like a very sensual movie. And it understands the power of music. It understands the power of movement. It understands the power of sex. It understands how all those things are like related to God and spirituality. And that, you know, on one side is church. On the other side is music. On the third side is oral sex and lots of liquids. And you feel all of those things. Like it's just you feel the different combinations of or like explorations of the ecstatic

and then you get to that sequence which is just killer and look so good and you're just, it's magical movie making and then you do got to watch the CGI vampire fight. So I do think that some of the criticism or the resistance to that fight is because of like the high highs that are achieved in the first 90 minutes.

I felt a little bit of it watching even the first time. I was like, okay, this is going into a slightly more standard movie territory. And I think some of those criticisms are informed by a generation of movie fan that saw a couple of movies that I think Googler has been pretty honest about

being inspired by, but I feel like it's probably better to put those movies in a lineage. And I've been kind of arguing with people about this over the last few months, but obviously there's a lot of from Dust Till Dawn in this movie. The Robert Rodriguez film, which is written by Quentin Tarantino, George Clooney and Tarantino

play brothers who are criminals who kidnap a family and they bring them as hostages on this road trip so they can escape after a bank robbery and they find themselves at a bar on the border of Mexico and they realize when they're in this bar where they're waiting to meet someone overnight that it's actually a vampire bar and that after a certain period of time all the patrons of the bar and all the people who work at the bar are all vampires. Very similar in a kind of a little more than superficial way. But if you look at the history of these movies, from Dust Till Dawn,

is very clearly inspired by John Carpenter's assault on Precinct 13. It's also clearly inspired by Catherine Bigelow's Near Dark. It's also inspired by John Carpenter's The Thing, which Coogler and Autumn have cited as major inspirations. And so I personally enjoy the idea of Cougler using movie history and the frameworks of movie. This is what all of my favorite directors do, where they're just like,

I really love this movie from 40 years. years ago, and I want to do kind of my spin on it, and I'll do it in the Mississippi Delta, and it'll be about blues music. Like, to me, many great movies, maybe most great movies, are kind of in conversation with movie history. And so the idea of people being like, this is just from Dustal Dawn, like, completely misunderstands the long arc of vampire movies in American popular culture. So I enjoy that he does that.

And then I also enjoy the fact that he doesn't just end with a big vampire fight. He does the two things that you were describing where he puts a bow on the KKK, which the movie kind of sets up very well at the beginning when Smoke and Stack by that space from Hogwood. Hogwood, incredible, hilarious name for the KKK member.

You get this really artful, kind of classical John Dillinger like shooting into the camera moment from Michael B. Jordan. And then that incredibly complex spiritual idea of Annie and their child who were both dead

and then him smoke moving on at the end of the film which is a swing I mean that's not a small gesture it's a pretty dramatic moment and what I like about that and I've been turning this over my mind

so I'm curious how you feel about it I see the movie as like somewhat anti-organized religion and I don't even know how faithful a person cooler is or not but Sammy's kind of war between his family life and his creative life and what his father wants for him and what his cousins want for him and

where he ultimately ends up when he grows up to become buddy guy and the way that smoke goes out and the fact that he does have this connection to the spiritual world and that Annie represents this other Creole and African relationship to the spiritual but that the kind of the organization, the structure that keeps you spiritual is really discarded in the movie and not really paid as much attention to and what it is really ultimately is a movie about like following your passions and what you want and what's inside of yourself and keeping it for yourself and not giving it to Remic and not giving it to anybody else who wants it. Right.

Doing it on your own terms is again another thorny idea in the stew of the movie that I really enjoy and every time you think he's going to end the movie, he waits to end it to say like one more thing about the things that are on his mind as he's writing through it. But I don't know if people may disagree with me about how they see some. spirituality and the church in the movie. I mean, it's definitely set up as something that the Sammy character is rebelling against. And the last shot is him, the last shot before the final credits. Yeah.

You're a last shot. The last shot of Miles Caten is Sammy driving away from the church. And it echoes him driving away with, with, smoke and stack ahead of time. And, like, he's, like, he's on a road of, like, you know, a road of his own. Yes. Maybe perhaps a road to Damascus. But, um, so I, I don't disagree.

I think it might not be as like clean as like, it's anti-religion. That's not really what I'm saying. But it is like, I wonder inside of Coogler there's something about like, I could have went here, but I went here. Well, I think what the movie is amazing at communicating and it, and is exploring. and like it's the connection like music, spirituality, like sex. Like there are different ways to feel and live in this world and enjoy this world and find its real beauty then in like the institutions that are presented throughout the film.

I think that's well put. So and the movie really understands the connections between all of those things. So I don't know. So, like, it is a very sexy movie, and there are not very many sexy movies right now. But, but not in like a, not in a gross way or not in a way that's trying to, like, titillate. I think it just understands, like, sex as another, like, way of connection and physical expression or. Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's a movie about desire in a lot of ways, about what people really want. And Sammy going down on Jamie Lawson's character, you know, and then having that kind of like union, that realization, I think Haley Steinfeld's character is like incredibly sexual and forward in a way that's fairly uncommon.

But again, it's kind of a this thorny idea of this white woman coming into this space, desiring a black man, wanting to be within this black enclave of people. And her not feeling shame about that, her being excited by it and being like scorned by this person who left her and wanting to get back in their life. but then turning her into a vampire who then turns him into a vampire, which is again this like really naughty idea that I think is really interesting. One thing on rewatch that I did notice was that it is, it's, it is the women every time who let the vampires in. You pointed out Lola Kirk, which like I, she is, I don't remember her character's name, she's Lola Kirk forever. And then, and then Mary, who is sent out because her, her. argument is that she is like the vampire, the

Irish musicians as we as the characters understand them at that moment are more likely to be forthright with her. Lola Kirk's name is Joan by the way in the film. Yeah, okay. And then Grace, the Chinese grocer who invites them and she literally yells, comes in, come in, but it's because they've threatened her child.

Played by Lee-Jun Lee, who's great in this movie. So wonderful. So that's three instances. I mean, I sat there and I was like, hmm, I wonder what this is trying to say. And it's not trying to, it's not like the men are doing anything proactive. Like the men are not helpful in any way. They just like become vampires. Well, it's also the non-black women.

Exactly. You know, Annie is not inviting any vampires in. Annie is the only person who knows how to do anything. She's the wisest person in the movie. Yes, exactly. So, you know, I think that all of that's, like, very purposeful. And the men, the funniest scene to me that I had forgotten was Del Rey-Lindo eating the garlic clove. So good.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, very, that whole sequence is very inspired by the thing and this idea of, like, testing who is really the monster. So, like, a great callback. But, I mean, he's very funny in the movie throughout. That's, his nomination is really interesting to me. Because, like, I think he's really good in the movie. Yeah.

I don't know that he's, like, my favorite performance of all time. I think he's, like, an interesting side character. Not really too much more than that. But I love him as an actor over the years. And there are a number of different times when I've been like, he should have been nominated for Clockers. He should have been nominated for Defy Bloods. He should have been nominated for a bunch of other movies.

But you do need a person who can play for laughs there a couple times in the movie because the movie does run the risk of getting a little psychosierious about certain aspects. of it, like smoke and Annie, that's a very, you know, sincere and very straight conversation that they're having first when he goes to see her after he's returned to Mississippi, and then later they're kind of like their union inside of the juke joints. So you do need people who can kind of like balance. And then the vampires ultimately become very funny. I spent a lot of time thinking about Jack O'Connell and Google's decision to like choose an Irish vampire and this really

interesting history of the Irish and black Americans. Yeah, it's purposeful. Totally purposeful. You know, like two very musical peoples, two people's that were considered a lower class, but one certainly at a much higher station in society than the other. And this idea of like the false sympathies of the Irish that is like, again, a very deep and complicated idea. I've had a lot of fun texting with Van over the last few months about that idea.

And you know, Ryan, I think has a really good insight and insensitive. humor about that. He's like, my name is Ryan. Like, I am Irish, you know. And the idea of O'Connell, being a big-time monster, like a real historical movie baddie, but also having this, this pretty typical in the right kind of movie sympathetic strain of vampire identity, where it's like, most vampires are like, I didn't, this wasn't my choice. Right. Somebody took my life from me. I'm bound to this eternal struggle. I just kind of want to get back to what my life

used to be. And so, even though you say vampire, you think of silly movie with somebody biting somebody's neck, you know, the Bram Stoker idea of it is very sexual, very psychological, and O'Connell, obviously, on a legendary run right now of just playing complex villains.

But I think he's terrific in this movie. And I said to Autumn, the Rocky wrote to Dublin scene when he's dancing, and singing, and then it becomes this kind of like ecstatic, euphoric, collectivism moment between all of these vampires who are like coming together to embrace this white boy. I think it's so good.

And you really do, this stack character is there singing along, like, very enthusiastically. And Michael V. Jordan is like really having it up in that moment. It's great. Yes, it's a great performance. But, you know, it jumps out. Yeah. MBJ.

Yeah. Also obviously nominated. And I think an actor that we've always liked, I think has maybe been a little historically underestimated, but also we've been living with him for a long time, you know, going back to the wire and Friday Night Lights. Yeah, we've watched him grow up. Yeah. We did. He's currently making the Thomas Crown Affair.

I know that. That's pretty complicated for you. What if it's not good? I'm open to it. Okay. That was one thing that you guys, well, I haven't finished your Crime 101 conversation yet. I mean, I do, you know, I love a JMO Light podcast. So I will listen to all of it.

A little jam-oish, yeah. Yeah. But no one's mentioned the Thomas Crown Affair overtones yet. I mean, like it's a very hot insurance woman in on or not on the trade. That didn't occur to me. It was right there for the taking. We missed you then. I enjoyed Crime 101.

Yeah, it's fun. I did think that it was Chris Hemmworth, the accountant, but that's okay. 100 is. But I also enjoyed the accountant and even some parts of the accountant, too. They're very similar performances, a very similar idea behind that guy. two beautiful men who are like, what if I'm a little weird? Yeah. You know, which I get it as a beautiful man who's a little weird.

Anyway, MBJ. He's really, really good at reacting to people. That's one of his skills as an actor. So you really do need to hand it to him that most of this performance, he has to be reacting to himself and or, you know, a stand-in for himself. And I do think that he, in addition to, like, really demonstrating a connection with both the anti-character and the Mary character and the Sammy character and all the people around him, this scenes between smoke and stack have chemistry. Oh, yeah. Which is incredible because you're just having chemistry with yourself. It's a really good twin performance.

Twin performances are not easy. Do you have any favorite twin performances? Lindsay Lohan, the parent trap, Nancy Myers. Yeah, it's a pretty good one. It's iconic. What about Tom Hardy in the film The Legend? I do think I've seen that. It's like 60s, he's in a suit.

Yeah, the Cray brothers. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, listen. If Chris Ryan's happy, I'm happy. Okay. What about Christian Bale in The Prestige? Eh. I mean, he's good.

Christian Bale is seldom bad. I've seen Amsterdam, so. Is he even bad in that? I don't even think he's bad in that. I don't think he's ever been bad. You know, he survived Thor, Love, and Thunder. I guess. He's terrific.

Yeah. Christian Bale should work with Couglar. That would be good. I'd be interested in that. I did like a lot about a lot of what Cooghler has been saying about this film and what you were describing about his connection to the American South and how he pointed out that he made two movies about Africa before circling back to, he kind of skipped a step in terms of exploring his personal history and his family history. And his uncle James is this. kind of signal figure in the development of this movie, someone who he was really close to,

who was from Mississippi, who talked with him a lot. He eventually moved to Richmond, California, to be closer to his family. And so Cougler was very close to James. And they talked all the time about music and baseball and James drank whiskey. You know, I think most of us had uncles and aunts who, like, with whom we had these relationships, right, where they showed us things. They kind of, because they didn't, they weren't our parents. They could be more real with us about how things were. I like a lot of like Coogler's fascinations and obsessions with stuff that he puts into his movies and also his little perversions of things that he puts into his movies. And him constantly citing this and his sadness about not being present when James passed away while he was making Creed being such a critical part of informing this movie. I think is really cool.

What else? So the, let's see. We did vampires. Mm-hmm. Do you think that the wishy-washiness over it, not the disagreement over the actual, like, vampire fighting thing, which is the most genre part of this genre movie and the least Oscars part of this Oscars movie will be held against it in voting? I think it already isn't. Yeah.

You know, I mean, it got 16 nominations. And so that's sort of what I mean when I, as we've been doing this over the years, I give a lot of thought to what is accepted and celebrated. And, you know, I just mentioned to you the shape of water and parasite. But, I mean, everything everywhere all at once is another movie where Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, was never really strongly considered as a best picture contender. It got nominated and was acclaimed. But a movie like that, a martial arts film, a film with a lot of martial arts.

was just not recognized. And now it is. Now there is one. It's entirely premised upon the history of martial arts, that movie. And so I think that's really interesting that a lot of those prejudices and biases against genre storytelling have kind of been washed away. Now, it doesn't mean that they're always going to win. Right.

And I guess there's never been a vampire movie that's won best picture before. And you could debate whether or not, you know, the Exorcist. And the Silence of the Lambs, I guess, are the two primary victors in the horror movie, Best Picture Race over the years. And we're probably due now for another one, considering how meaningful horror is to audiences and to movie making in 2026. So that, I mean, I guess if Sinners wins, do you think of that as a horror movie win? I guess you do. I guess so.

Though, again, my experience of this rewatch and of really sitting down and thinking about it was that, I, you know, the genre, the horror element is both essential to it and also the least memorable thing about it, in my opinion. And, you know, like, you need the framework and like any good genre film in any genre is using those very, that like the beats and then inventing them, putting them together in new ways referencing what's going before that. That's like the joy of them. And that's also if you can be creative about it. So I think to not consider it genre is to also misunderstand the film. Yeah, but it is also a musical, you know, in a very, in a very defined way where there are multiple set pieces where the movie just stops and we look at someone playing music. And that is so interesting that he's able to make that work together with it. The music itself, I have been giving a lot of thought too.

I instantly fell in love with it and I'm on board with what Ludwig Garansson does. Like, I just think he, and I've noticed that he's gotten some criticism because he's now won twice in a row. And there's this sense that like he's kind of iterating on the same idea over and over again, which is he's using these kind of like cultural mashups. You know, that in Black Panther, he's taking like, classic orchestral music and hip hop and African rhythms and blasting them together. In Oppenheimer, it is this idea of like, uh, The big swelling orchestra with a very tiny quartet with this idea of like electronic music kind of pulsing underneath it. And in this movie, Delta Blues, African rhythms, orchestral score, gospel music, heavy metal. There's a lot of like American rock and roll in the movie.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like classic, like it's a vampire movie and we cut away to the moon and we're like, boom, like death chord, which is awesome. I love it. Yeah. I'm into it. Like, as a project, I think that's a cool project. What else would you do for this film? I mean, that is just kind of like a literalization of what this film is about in a lot of ways.

So, you know, I think it works perfectly. I have no problem with it. I do too. I mean, I really, I think it's fun to look at the, to look at the playlist that they compiled for the inspirations for the music. Because it is everything from like Willie Dixon and Sunhouse to Allison Chains. You know, like it is a vast 100-year history of American guitar music. On top of the fact that he, I think, is ascending into this, like, John Williams status, you know, where he has these collaborations with Coogler. He's now got these collaborations going with Christopher Nolan, the same way that Williams kind of had, like, Lucas and Spielberg.

And then he started stacking on top of that, and then Harry Potter. And you can kind of see for the next 40 years that if Ludwig wants this, he can have this. And that's pretty rare. That's great. Let's have another John Williams, you know. John Williams, one of our greatest living. How about yesterday when they were playing music and Alice was just like, can you just put on the Star Wars music? And just like the Imperial March? No, the last 45 minutes of your barbecue was just our children like dancing rad to the Star Wars score.

Yeah, John Williams is huge. At the Jaws exhibit, have you been to the Jaws exhibit at the Academy Museum? Not yet. There's, you know, multiple rooms, but there's one room. where there's a keyboard and it has stickers on the keys and it shows you how to play the Jaws theme and then on the screen behind it

it is Spielberg and John Williams talking about the score and how they built the score and it's basically Spielberg being like I don't know John Williams does it but it's really interesting yeah

Ludwig I like I'm a fan you know do I wish Dan LaPatton was nominated for best score this year I do I do I wish he would win that's my favorite score me too but he's not nominated

So he's not going to win. I do think that the score nominating committee needs to look within itself. Okay. It's been two years of just egregious oversights. But I'm not mad at this win. I wouldn't be mad at it either. It almost certainly seems like it's going to happen. Johnny Greenwood still never won.

That is weird. Isn't it? What's going on there? I don't know. I mean, has PTA won? No. So that's what's going on there. Degger doesn't have an Oscar.

Stephen Cooper never got an Oscar. It's just kind of where we are. These are all good points. I'm quite a big fan. Harrison Ford doesn't have an Oscar. Yeah. That's a tough one. We can't make that one right.

Tom Cruise doesn't, honoraries don't count in my book. Digger, though. I, okay. Diggers coming. You think it's going to be a Venice? Oh, is that being speculated? By me.

Are you going to Venice again? I'm thinking about it. It's been long enough that I'm, I'm like getting itchy, you know? It's been four months. Well, I know, but listen, logistics and being away from your family and you got to kind of like take a reset. But I've been looking at apartments, yeah. Just a buy to live in.

That's exciting for you. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think, that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world. pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com. If sinners wins one out of 16 Oscars, will there be like a... Oh, God. Yes, of course they're well. Of course they're will. But, and... I guess it's going to win too,

right? It's going to win a screenplay and score. Those are going to happen. Yeah. And Cougar will have like a wonderful moment on stage. As he did, did you watch his Baptist stage? I did not. It was wonderful. No, okay. And he had all the department heads stand up.

Very cool. And, you know, and he also, he's so thoughtful about the actual award he's receiving and what he's receiving it for. And it was about writing and the power, you know, and inspiration to other writers,

but like in a non-tried way, it was great. So he'll get screenplay. So two for 16. It's not what you want. I don't think that's what's going to happen, but it's possible. I would really like to see production design, costume design, cinematography. I don't think the first two are going to Frankenstein.

I don't understand that. But that's one woman's opinion. Cinematography, I think, is a coin flip. Okay. But we'll see. It would be nice to have more craft stuff because I do think they're such a, it is so beautifully built on every level. And also, as you've been saying, Coogler has really just brought up this whole, like, the next generation of John Williams is in every category, right? Yeah. I mean,

he's an incredible team builder and legacy builder, which I think is great. I mean, obviously, Ruth Carter has been working for decades. But, you know, Hannah Beakler, I don't think I'd heard that name before she started working on his movies. And now I look forward to seeing what she does. We talked about it with Autumn, the fact that she's now a person who she'd been making, she was making Indies with Gia Coppola. You know, that was really what her, her filmmaking experience was in the 2010s, and her coming on to do Black Panther Wakanda Forever is fascinating. Coogler, for the next few years, is an interesting subject.

I think he has become weirdly more now than Black Panther, which was such a big film, but he has done such a good job as an advocate for this film, and then, as you said, kind of winning these prizes and being a public person going on good hang with Amy Poehler, you know, like he's more visible now, and he seems to relish it. Sorry. I know. That was a great moment. One of the few moments where a podcast was clipped out and I was like, this is good. This is what you want.

He's making Black Panther 3. And Black Panther 2, you know, not my favorite. Probably my least favorite of his films. And you can see why there are a lot of reasons why. Obviously, we lost Chadwick Bozeman. And I think that was obviously very hard for everybody who worked on that movie. And it forced them to change that movie in a pretty dramatic way. And we are definitely in a moment where it feels like Marvel matters a little less to the culture. It doesn't mean that a Black Panther movie matters less, but this is the kind of movie that I'm like, God damn, I can't wait to see what this guy does next. So then to just go to a Black Panther 3 maybe not exactly what I would want from them, but it's not our choice, obviously. I don't know.

Maybe he has a big idea. Maybe he's got a lot of stuff he wants to do. He's a very imaginative person. I agree. I agree. I also don't think Ryan Cooler's in a position. at this point in his life where he's doing something that he doesn't want to be doing. Well, I wonder if he's contractually obligated to make a third Black Panther film.

I mean, that's, that crossed my mind, you know? I mean, I'm sure in some way. But also, I don't know, aren't these things supposed to be more flexible? I mean, he has a lot of power. That's the other thing. I mean, I noted that Bill Lord and Chris Miller did themselves an aspect ratio video in the run-up to Project Hail Mary, where they're kind of talking about seeing the movie in IMAX. I can say I saw the movie in IMAX, wowsers.

So I get why they did that, but that only happened because Ryan Coochler did the introduction of the film presentation of the movie, which then went viral a year ago. And now this wave of like horny format boys, you know, all the PLF kids who are just like, I will not see this film unless it's projected in 70 at CityWalk. Which is like, I mean, it's me. But it's really funny. You were that way. You were, especially for one battle. I know. I was like, we got to just like.

I saw it in every format. See them and the, and the Vista Vision of it all. Yeah. Why? Why did they shoot Wuthering Heights in Vista Vision? Why? Didn't get an answer on that. I've got no answers on any of that stuff.

I'm not really sure. But I, yeah, see it in the best screen that you can, you know, in the best. Go to the best experience to see a film and then just see it. What kind of movie would you like Ryan Cougar to make? Well, I know, Michael B. Jordan is. directing Thomas Crown Affair, so Google can't. I wouldn't you like to see it? That would be really cool.

Yeah. I mean, my answer for most directors I admire is like, can you just remake the Thomas Crown Fair? A heist film with charming people? Yeah, he would make a heck of a hoist movie. That's really interesting. At Desjardin Insurance, we know that when you're a building contractor, your company's foundation needs to be strong. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business

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We haven't done this in a month. As I said, this is a very consequential weekend. Yes. So we're doing it before PGA and before the actor once. And that will determine, I think, Probably nothing, but PGA is going to tell us a lot. Yeah. Because PGA is extremely predictive for Best Picture.

If Sinners wins PGA, will you flip your, you're where you think it's going? I don't know. I think if Sinners wins PGA and then you get a big night at the Act Rewards, which were the next night. And I think Sinners is the presumptive favorite and best ensemble. It is. So if you get those two, plus you pick up a supporting trophy or two, then maybe yes. Maybe I'll flip it.

You've been steadfast. I've been more wavery. I do. We talked about the BFTAs and we talked about the surprises and then we listed all the awards that won battle after another. The Bafters are not as predictive. And I do think that there is a lot of movement for sinners. but we have seen in the last few years that the race is decided quite early. And then losers like ourselves spend a lot of time trying to make things interesting until mid-March.

Like whose selves? And it's not. It's that, you know, it's everything everywhere. It's Oppenheimer. It's Anora. So sometimes CODA happens. Sometimes CODA happens. I was on leave for CODA.

So I don't acknowledge it. That never happened. Coda, beautiful movie. Like that movie. I cried. Listen, I'm a human being. Yeah, me too. I cried before I had a child.

I just love to have a daughter. That's been the best thing that's ever happened to me. And Coda is powerful truth about that. Let's do the rankings. I don't know that we need to dramatically shift what we had, but I'm curious how you thought. I thought there was a chance, and the reason I scheduled this for this time,

I thought there was a chance that Hamnet could win at Bafta. Because Bafta is not very predictive, and it tends to not match with Best Picture, Hamnet did in fact win Best British Film. at the Baptist. I thought we were going to be like, okay, is this actually a three-horse race? And that was the convo we were going to have.

I don't think so. And that's not the conversation we're going to have. So last time we did this in January, we had number 10F1, number nine, begonia, number eight train dreams, number seven, the secret agent, number six, Frankenstein, number five, Marty Supreme,

number four, sentimental value, number three, hamlet, number two sinners, number one, one battle after another. What's changing? Anything? I know this is a pointless exercise. All awards prognostication is pointless.

I hear you guys. I get it. That being said, I don't hear you. Okay. This is what we do this podcast for. Also, people pretend like they don't like this and they listen to all these episodes. All of these episodes always have listenership. I don't hear you because I don't read the comments.

And also because this is what we do on this podcast for almost 10 years running. How many episodes are we? What episode is this? We're coming up on 900. Okay. 900, I think, is this spring. Okay. 900? I know. What? It's not a thousand. It's not a thousand. We'll get there.

Remember when you made me celebrate like 300 or something? Made you. And I, no, you did. You put it in. 300. Yeah, sure. That's a big number. It's not 250, you know? Oh, you think that's a not interesting number? I do. It's sort of like a 15th anniversary, which I think I said at the time. It's like we're, we're stretching a little. So you only care every 250? No, I just, I think that 250, 500. 750. I mean, 750 is really also. I don't think we did anything. We did not do seven 50. No, no, no. It's 250, 500. And then a thousand. I think we should have an anniversary episode every

six episodes. I think that would go well. Okay. We're going to formally rank these. Are you ready? Yeah. So today's best picture power rankings is brought to you by Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back and watch life go by like you're watching a movie of someone else's story play out, but you'll never get where you want to be that way. So this is a call. From us, VW and all the other drivers out there take control and make the most of every moment, like many of the characters in the movies we're talking about today. We have 10 moves. Yeah. Is anything changing? Yes. Bogonia hasn't won shit. So that is moving from 9 to 10, in my opinion. F1 at least is in the race for sound, for editing. We could have like a Ford v. Ferrari editing went here for F1. That's in play. Oh.

You know, like sometimes a kind of non-competitor that is in the best picture race gets into that race. Right. That's plausible to me. But only if it involves cars going really fast. It helps. It definitely helps. Because you got a cut from the one car to the other. Well, he's got all those cameras mounted on the cars.

It's good editing. Kaczynski. My guy. Your guy. I'm right there. I've been there from the beginning. I think F1... Bagonia, what's happening?

What's happening with Bucconia? Everyone's happy to see Emma Stone at the awards. Lantamos, you in? I'm in. I'm pro. I enjoyed Bagonia. I like Bagonia more than I liked Bologna. Poor things.

So that's where I am. I think I like him about the same. Okay. I think every Lantamos movie to me that isn't the lobster or dog tooth is like a seven. The lobster and dog tooth, those are a nine. Okay. And the favorite? It's like a seven.

It's good. Okay. It's a three and a half out of five. The favorite an eight. That's cool. Lobster and Dogtooth, I agree. Nine. Bagonia.

Sure. I guess Bagonia and poor things are both a seven because poor things the first time you see it. really great. The second time you see it, you're like, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like 14 hours long. Yeah.

It's just a, yeah. Why does that movie so long? Gounds, beautiful gowns. No, I get it. I like it. It's good. It's okay. It's very similar to how to make a killing conversation.

It was like, good time. Enjoyed it? A couple ideas. Good performance. Love to go to the movies. I like, it's a number 10, Bagonia. Oh, yeah, it is, but I enjoyed it. I did too.

F1 number nine or is F1? Is it Zoom and Vroom and past train dreams? Train dreams. Train dreams also. Well, it's won a couple of cinematography things. It could win cinematography. And that's how we're grading this is sort of like, what are you getting on the board?

And is train dream's going to get anything on the board on Oscar night? It's not nominated in very many places. Yeah. Is the song Train Dreams from Train Dreams by Nick Cave nominated? I forget. I believe so. But Nick Cave will not be performing. Hey, you know what?

Let's pause for a second. K-pop Demon Hunter is being added to the Criterion Collection. I saw! Oh my God. Let's go. Are you serious? Does Alice get her own copy? Of course.

That's the whole thing. That's what we're about to do. So cute. Welcome to the collection. Put Alice in the closet. Come on. Oh my gosh. No, this is huge.

He'll also be getting his own copy, obviously. I think just an ingenious move by criterion. He wants the tiger. and then just like emerge with my Bring It On 4K that you got me for my birthday. Hey, what's this? That's what this is all about. Putting K-pop Demon Hunters in the collection, a whole new generation of physical media kids fucking love it. Yeah. All right.

I'm sorry. I, train dreams at number nine. And F1 at eight. I think that F1 has a better chance at sound and possibly editing than train dreams has at cinematography. Very interesting take. Right. I think F1 has a possibility, a stronger possibility in two categories than train dreams has in the one.

The case for train dreams in cinematography is most people have to shoot on digital, and they know how hard it is to make digital look like that. It is. And so there is a little bit of an acknowledgement, but I... Do they know? This is actually my question. I don't know. Do they know?

No. And what Michael Baumann does and what Autumn Dorald Archipaugh do are very different in those two front runners. One is this very kind of like David Leen-esque portrait of big vistas and the other is this very contrasty, dark, colorful, musical kind of

that historically athletic. You know, there are a couple of big oneers and centers. There are two different approaches to this stuff. Train Dreams is a bit more magisterial, a bit more Terrence Malick. So they're all these different types that are up in that category. I think Train Dreams is nine because I don't think it's going to

win anything. I think F1 getting getting a win. Now is the secret agent getting a win? You think it's going to be sentimental value in an international feature? I do. I do. I do. Sentimental value is very strong. It is. People really like it. People really like it in the nominations. It won at BAFTA for non-English language film. Yeah. So by the way, speaking of the secret agent follow-up conversation that we will have will happen in March because the film is going to Hulu on March 1st. Oh, that's great. So then the reason I've been holding off on us having a deeper conversation about the movies because I feel like people haven't had a chance to see the movie.

So I know that those of you who have seen it are like talk about it, talk about it more. But when a movie plays in like 200 theaters and then goes away for three months, it's a little bit hard to justify it. But it will be on Hulu on March 1st. So we'll talk about it after that. Okay. Is F1 a head of Secret Agent? Is that crazy? That is crazy.

Okay. So it, I think international feature is probably the only place where it could win. Right. You've ruled out Wagner. Well, I just, he, he hasn't been back on stage. You know? And he's not going to be on stage of the actors because they didn't nominate him. Yeah.

It's not my decision. It was theirs. Yeah. We're not in SAG aftra, as previously discussed. They hate, should we, should we apply? Is that how it works? Should Netflix podcasters be in SAG? Genuine question.

Should Rich Paul and Max Kellerman be in SAG? Yes. I would honestly love to. What do you guys think? Yes. If they are, then I want them negotiating for me. Okay. You know, that's like,

that sounds good. Rich Paul is an Asian. That's what I'm saying. Okay, we can talk to them about that. Okay. I don't, I, I guess. This is just a game. Okay.

We're just playing a game. I love a game. Do you think right now, you're doing your ballot right now, it's sentimental value over secret agent in the international future? I already did my ballot for PGA. We are talking about the Oscars. Like a general, like Jim Oscar voter, Jane Oscar voter? Yes.

I could never get into the minds of those freaks. No, how about if you, Sean, Fentanyi are making your predictions for Oscar night right now. Oh. That's what I'm saying. But they will never reveal the vote so it doesn't matter. No. No, Sean.

Who's winning international feature today? You have to pick today. Is it secret agent? It's sentimental value? Okay. I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't have to make that decision right now. You're so afraid of Brazil.

I respect it. You know, they are powerful. And I don't read the comments, but I know they're there. is like... I really like the secret agent, too. I do too. Sentimental value is maybe more special than we realize. I know.

You know what? It might become a like big time movie for a generation of people. And I'll never understand that generation. I don't... You know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. And I meant to say that Ryan Cougler specifically thanked Yokim Trier in his speech. was saying that Joachim is a mentor to him.

Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Him and taught him how to write. Oh, wow. He loved that film. So I see what you're saying. These last two movies, I think, are going to be very influential. And I think they're like, those two movies I see, the Secret Agent is brilliant and strange.

Sentimental Value and the worst person in the world are almost like starter kit international films where when you're first starting to get into movies and you're like, okay, I'll start watching movies that are not in the English language. They're very easy movies to glide into international cinema. And then you can look at them and be like, okay, there's this history of Norwegian films, Scandinavian film, you find Bergman, you start finding French films, you find the new wave, you move over to Asia, you start looking at Japanese films. So you know what I'm saying? I do. Yeah, it's a, it's a bridge.

It's a bridge, yes, it's a bridge. So I would say sentimental value, in part because of that, and it's very watchable and has stars in it is way ahead in that race. Okay. But you know what? I could be wrong. I don't know. Well, right now we're trying to decide whether F1 is above the secret agent or not. not. And I, and so, very cool game. That, to me, is like a little bit overcorrecting for your

cowardice in your nominations predictions. And ultimately, I leave it to you. You know, you didn't have the strength of your convictions that morning. Do you want to have them now? Here's the problem with the way that we're doing this right now. It's not a problem. It's something I insist upon. F1 is in dead last in the best picture race. There's no question in my mind. Everybody is putting it at 10, unless you worked on the movie. And that's okay. Because it got there. It got to 10.

But that's not what we're talking about right now. We're mixing it up. Where did you put it in your preferential PGA ballot? Are you willing to share that with the public? I don't have a copy of that. But if you just look at my top 100, it's based on wherever the movies fell in my top 100. And you don't have that committed to memory?

Oh, okay. That's right. F1 was also, I believe, ahead of Frankenstein. And it was also ahead of... That's it. Yeah. I mean, one battle was my favorite movie of the year. Sinners was my number five.

Secret Agent was my number six, and sentimental value was my number seven, and Marty was four. So, like, this is the most I've ever matched. This is the most I've ever matched with the Oscars, like, in my life as a fan. Yeah. Because all my-on-Fenasy, this is your life. I know. All my peeps got nominated. Like, all my people, you know, I've been tracking the safeties for 15 years.

I've been PTA since I was 12 years old, you know. So this is very strange to be to be chalk. I am the living embodiment of chalk. Anyway, F1 at 8, Secret Agent at 7. Someone's going to make a rude hat with that on it, and then you should wear it. I am the living embodiment of chalk.

Did you see that people literally made AI versions of me and Chris in the X-Men costumes that we were talking about in the Oscar snubstrap? I'm not going to retweet AI shit, but they used AI to make it. So it was me as Thanos and CR as cable. Okay. The time traveling.

What about some hand-drawn, you know? Let's put in the work. And then I will, if someone actually makes it for real, not AI. You're asking for free labor. You're going to pay? You'll pay for a hand-drawn rendition of me as Thanos, holding the infinity gauntlet with all of the gems. But it also needs to be, who is Chris? Cable.

Okay. Yeah. And you're going to be Kitty pride. I'm not a part of this. squirrel girl. I'm not, did you know that Juliette Limin is really into the X-Men? Who isn't? Me. I know about them, but I only learned this recently and it was a little bit like, you know, I've been in this relationship, you know, this friendship and partnership with this person for 10 years. And then it's like when I married Zach and then he started golfing.

I was like, I just, I didn't, this wasn't part of the terms. I think you are maybe the only exception in my life and people that I fuck with who are not into X-Men. Like, if you're not into X-Men, we're not friends. I'm not not into them. They are also a portal to understanding yourself as an adolescent. And she probably watched X-Men the animated series, as we all did as young kids, except for you, because you were like playing the piano or something, whatever the fuck you were doing. Excuse me. Something where you alienated yourself from the world by being alone. Yeah, it wasn't by choice. It was someone else putting me in the room. But that's fine.

Secret agent. Imagine if you just got into X-Men, how much better would our life be? So the one guy Can't even do this We can't even do the game Where you can't even do the game Where you can't even do the thing But you don't know the thing Not for X-Men

It's too important For you to be like There's a guy And there's another guy They're coming back Well of course That's why we're getting These Avengers films

They're gonna find a way To launch the next phase So that we can get X-Men And this is all because Disney bought Fox Exactly right So I think you could make the case

The single biggest Reason they bought Fox Was for the X-Men Is that worth it to you, Sean Fennessey. If the movies suck, no. They kill the whole studio. Right, but if the movies are worth it,

is it worth killing a whole studio? Oh. I like an X-Men movie. You know, and if you do it right, okay, all right. I'll consider it. I don't appreciate the shrinking of the... You think they're people.

No, I don't think the shrinking of the number of studios, the job loss, I think it's abhorrent, and I reject it. Okay. I have no control over it. Is F1 above the secret agent in our power rankings? It's at number eight. I think is the secret agent ahead of Marty Supreme, which might win zero Oscars.

But might also win Best Actor. No. So. Frankenstein is going to win probably two Oscars. Okay. Maybe one, but probably two. Okay. Does that go ahead of Marty?

Probably, which is sad. I think it goes Marty at six, Frankenstein at five. and then I think we stick with sentimental value. Or is sentimental value ahead of Hamnet? Or just because it has Best Actress, it's good. Is Hamnet going to win anything besides Best Actress? I'm thinking loud right now. Almost certainly not.

Yeah. So, and sentimental value, we're favoring an international feature. We are. And possibly in a supporting category. Could be Stellan Scarsguard, could be Inga Epslaughter Lilius, could be Rachel Kemp herself, El Fanning. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen in supporting actress. But, you know, there is a lot of affection for Joachim Trier.

I don't think he's going to pick up original screenplay or director, though. So I think sentimental value for Hamlet Three Sinners 2, One Battle 1. I agree. Okay. That's it. I think we learned a lot about ourselves. Which is what? And the X-Men.

I think where would I... Listeners send some suggestions at A.K. Dobbins, really on any social media platform you like. I look at all of them. Where to start with X-Men? Because you're a reader. You're a reader. Oh, you want me to read? Yeah.

Yeah. Like, you watch Spider-Verse. You watch Spider-Verse with an open heart. Yeah, that's true. That's true. impressed by the use of color, the dynamism. That is true. Comic books are, again, another kind of bridge to experiencing cinema and the great works.

And the X-Men is like a lot of stuff that you like. It's a coming-of-age story about complicated, stormy young people figuring it out. I enjoyed the X-Men films that I have seen, which is... Only the Brian Singer ones. Those are the ones you like. X-Men First Class, which is Inglorious Bastards, but with superheroes. And also with James McAvoy and Michael Fastbender, my guy. I saw the second one.

X2. I think I did. I didn't see the last one. I have seen Logan. Okay. Good film. And I've seen Deadpool Wolverine. Deadpool and Wolverine.

They're not one person fused together. Aren't they? Well, in that van sequence. I think they want to be. Yeah, they do. They're very in love. And assorted other X-Men cameos throughout the. So I'm, I'm,

I am familiar. I think the original singer movies are not bad, setting aside the awfulness around Brian Singer. And in some cases, I love them. In some moments in the movie, I love them. But they never totally got it. And I'm waiting for a movie that will totally get it. Okay. And I think it should be Joachim Trir, who makes it.

Just think about what he could do. He is a person who knows how to render that kind of inner turmoil. of all the X-Men. They're all kind of struggling with their power and their responsibility. The sense of teamwork and camarader. We're all unions.

Thank you. Yeah, it was right there. Yeah. And imagine hearing Renata Ransva say that as Gene Gray. We would all be changed for the good. Okay. My middle name, just putting this on the record,

is literally Xavier. I was named after, my middle name is after Professor X. That's fucking beautiful. And also, you do have... He's the dude in the wheelchair. Oh, right. Okay.

He's not a dude. He's a professor of the school for gifted mutants. That's right. But like, what can he do? He's just super smart. No, no. He's a telepath. Oh, okay.

And he can read the mind. That seems loud. That's why Magneto wears that fucking helmet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charles can't get, his old friend Charles can't get inside of his head. It seems like you're taking on a lot when you can do that. Can you turn it off? Can you only listen to one?

thing at a time or is it just everyone talking all around you all at once? He has extraordinary control over this gift. But it does haunt him. Does he, has he always had control or did did he learn that at the school for X-Men? Well, he started the school. I know, but did he also train it?

As a school he started. Was there like a Batman McGins, Liam Newsom thing? What's that guy's? Razel Gould. No, there's not a Rosel gul to Xavier, I don't think. Well, not yet. Wow. You know, I don't really know a lot about Charles's youth.

Oh. But I also don't want, like, the first movie to be like, and then Charles was nine years old and here was his trauma. If they give me that, I'm going to be fucking pissed. I want brand name drop me into the yellow and blue suits. I want latex on these motherfuckers. And I want Xavier in the chair telling them, here's how you fight in the danger room.

That's what I need. This is some of the best content I know how to make is talking about what X-Men should be. and I feel good about it. This has really been a year for my youth seeing all these Star Wars movies now. Thinking about Avengers Doomsday, which I might hate but could lead to good things.

It's all happening here on the big picture. Okay. That was today's best picture power rankings and some X-Men chatter brought to you by Volkswagen. A lot of these films wouldn't exist today without someone out there striving to chase after their dreams. So consider this a sign. It's time to become the main protagonist in your life

and go after what you want. Learn more at VW.com. Okay, man. Thank you for indulge. all of my childhood fascinations. I learned a lot. X-Men. PTA.

Yeah. Vampires. Yeah. What else? Huntington, Long Island. Huntington? What an episode. I know.

Geez, what a conversation. Now let's go to my conversation with Autumn Durald Arquapaw. Autumn Doral Archipa is here. Very happy to have you. You know, I don't have a lot of cinematographers on the show. And I was curious if you could tell me what the first movie you saw. Maybe that didn't make you want to make film. but that had a big emotional impact on you.

Yes. It's interesting you clarify that because they are two different things, right? I think it was the last emperor, to be honest. Oh, how old were you? I was probably 10 or 9 or something. Actually, my son is 10, so it feels like that zone of a child. Are you showing him things like Bertolucci films? No, but I did have to watch Ben Hur the other day

because I was doing the extras on the new remaster, and he came in when I was re-watching the chariot race, and I'm like, you have to go to bed, and he's like, no, no, I want to finish watching this. And he was mesmerized by it. So that's probably the most adult vintage film that I've let him watch. It's not full film. What struck you about the last emperor?

I feel like I'm always someone who loves scope, and, you know, that cinematic phrase. So if something is cinematic, like I love a big camera, a landscape, you know, like I want to feel like I'm making a movie. And that movie felt like that. It was like beyond me. Like I felt like I was, you know, I felt small, you know, and I felt like, what is this world? You know, this child, it felt real. Like that little kid felt like he was really the last emperor.

That's really interesting because your last couple of films have been very big in scope, but your early work is not. And I was wondering if you kind of like, I know you didn't. set out when you were nine or ten to do this. And did you stumble into it? How would you describe the way you got into this line of work? I mean, I've always been a photographer. Like, early on, I think I always had a camera with me, not knowing that that was a career choice, but just I was very interested in capturing my family and friends. And then it progressed into like, I'd say college, I had a little camcorder, mini-d-d-vee, and I'd make videos on an eye-movie and put music over them.

I still didn't know that that had, you know, it wasn't like a filmmaker type of person. It was just like I wanted to capture my friends. And it wasn't until later, because I went to LMU for Art History, that I decided that I wanted to like look further into what the DP was doing because I saw two movies in a genre course,

Broadway, Danny Rose, and Raging Bull. And after that I was hooked. I'd write a paper on both. And then I started like looking into what a DP did or what that meant. and I couldn't really find much. And I took an extension course at UCLA. They had like a night course for like cinematography.

That was the first thing. My boss bought me that course. I was working in advertising at a desk. And he bought me the course to go check it out. Black and white films. Why did they, why did those hit? I think, I mean, I just really like, I remember the faces, like, in just the world that both of those films built.

And if you, like, look at the extras, like, how they, They curate extras, both of those directors. You know, they're real people, real faces. It feels like a real world that they're building. And I'm a sucker for contrast and, like, you know, like lighting as a character. So both of those films, I feel like do that really well. What happened after the extension course, where you're like this, I'm going to set myself on a path to being someone who does this professionally? Yeah, I mean, it was really like full force, I think, because, you know, I went to LMU and that's a

school where it's a great school in L.A., but it's loans, right? So, and I think, you know, after that, I'm like, well, I want to learn how to do this. And the best place, if you don't have family or friends in the business is, like, look at film schools. So I found AFI, and I started working on sets because you can, like, work for free on their cycle films. And so I was a scripty, and then a grip. And then the kids in the program were like, you should apply. You should apply to this program. And so that's kind of how I had my end, and I, you know, took out some loans. I didn't get in my first year that I applied. I got in the second year.

Interesting. And so I was just like committed. Like I really felt like I wanted to do that job or at least learn it and see if I could succeed. You weren't stymied by not getting in the first year? I was. I was. I mean, no one wants to be told no. Yeah.

You know, and I thought I had a pretty good reel. Like it was mostly photography and then I like pretended like I shot stuff and put together like a compilation of shots. Make it look like I had a short film. No, I was discouraged. but I still was like, I'm going to do this. And then I found a job because the advice was go get more experience on set. You have no set experience. I think you should go get more experience.

So I took a year off and quit my job in advertising. And I found a job as an AC on a documentary TV show called On the Road in America. What's an AC? Assistant camera. So I was like helping. I wasn't pulling focus because it was on Panasonic cameras at the time. I was like, you know, giving the DP filters and traveling around and in charge of all the camera equipment, setting up tripods, like kind of like stuff like this, you know, like stuff I could manage, but the focus was autofocus for the operator. I'm always curious about trying to get work when you do this line of work because like how do you, it's not like you're an actor where you are auditioning before a group and there's a call and you come in and you do it.

Or if you're a writer-director, you create material and you send them. off and you hope your agents can get interest from somewhere. For what you do, how do you go from, I went to AFI to I am not only getting jobs, but making a real living, doing what I like. Yeah. No, it's funny because that's the question. Like, if I'm doing Q&As, the students that come and then line up and want to talk, it's always like, how do I get to where you are? Yeah. Knowing that, like, I know you went to school. And it's not, there's no formula, right? It's really about, like, I felt like the year that I got in, that program, had I gotten in the year before, my life would be completely different. It's the people that you surround yourself with that actually, like, create that path.

So the students in the program become your best friends. And then when you graduate, they're the ones getting you jobs. You know, it's like, I can't do this job. Like, my classmate was like, you know, he was working with Giacopla. He couldn't shoot that day of, like, a test shoot. He was doing for Franco. because he wanted to see, like, the vibe that she was creating for Palo Alto. And so he's like, I can't make it.

Can you fill in for me? So I filled in for him. We were shooting, like, a test shoot soccer, the soccer scene. And we hit it off. And then, you know, she's my best friend, you know? So it's like, it's those little things that create that, you know. So, and then you foster that by like, you know, I'm always there for, you know, my friends and you're doing a ton of free work. I mean, it's a lot of free work.

You have to be prepared to really just put yourself out there. and shoot stuff for free. It's really interesting. I'm curious about the Gia collaborations because you've now worked with her on every film that she's made and they're very different from Ryan's movies.

You know, and it feels like, they feel handheld, they feel much more, like, grounded and, you know, smaller, like, budgetarily at least. So, like, were those that you said

you were into scope, like, you were in a big movie. So how do you, like, situate yourself? I assume part of it is just like, I really want to get a job and I've connected with someone, but talk about, like, artistically getting in line with something that isn't exactly how you saw yourself making films. Yeah, no, it's a good point.

Because, like, I would say, like, I gravitated. Like, I, there were, like, you know, more indie French films that I think I saw were, like, Wonkarwe films that were, like, you knew those were made with a group of people over a very long period of time, probably just running around kind of vibe. But you're not wrong. like I do like those bigger scopy movies, but you have to wait for that part of your career to catch up with you. Because you don't always, you know, it's like the industry sees Palo Alto

and then it becomes like, oh, she's, you know, doing the kind of teenage movie and then you're getting offered teenage rom-coms or, you know, you get pigeonholed in that kind of process. And because we were making that with friends and running around, which is fun. That's kind of how Last Showgirl was. made too on a different level. But no, it took me a while to kind of get people to offer me other

stuff. And then that would be a Loki, you know, then Loki comes. And finally, you know, it has some scope. You know, those are big episodes, big budget. You know, we could play around. So I was wanting that before. You know, I got offered that. But I also had a son, so I took a little bit of time off. So, yeah, you're not wrong. I was trying to get out of like that teenage more like indie. That's interesting. I have a couple of questions about Loki.

So I feel like there's like an agreed upon visual style to some extent in that world of storytelling. And there's like a larger apparatus, I assume, for creative approval than when you're working with someone like Gia, who you know when you're working

with a small crew and it's a smaller budget. Even though you want it to get bigger in scope, like how do you get comfortable working differently? Yeah, I mean, anyone who works in film, I mean, I'm generalizing, but it's like low budget, big budget, there's never enough time and there's never enough money.

A lot of the job on big budget stuff, you have more management, right? Because there's more money, there's more management, you know? And also it's like, you know, you have a bigger SFX team or maybe there's more visual effects or maybe you're traveling a whole crew somewhere like Puerto Rico and you have to shoot a big scene there. You know, so it's, you know, I love that when you start out in indie, you have to make something from nothing look amazing. So you're really good at, like, you know, knowing what you want and telling someone else what you want quickly. And in order to, like, have, you know, a small amount of resources, but make something look like it's more expensive. So if you dabble in that pool for a while, you get very good at that, right? Like, you know how to use the sun.

You know how to schedule the day in order to get the best shot. you know how to tell people what you're looking for. You know, you walk in a room and I can tell you like what's the scene about and I can really figure out, you know, what it's going to take to make that look good. And so then you jump to bigger budget stuff. It's like it's really like management and you have to, you know, there's money on the line, but it's also you're answering to studio. Whereas before on small stuff, you're more in charge.

Like you have all the power to make those decisions. But that was a really good project where we could kind of reinvent the wheel. Like, you know, they were doing the three streamers. You know, the whole world could be new. Tom was a real, like, proponent in, like, let's do something great. Let's really, like, break the mold here. So that helps when you have someone that's backing you as lovely as him. So, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of management.

Yeah. It's something that no one wants to talk about. It's like, oh, creative. It's amazing. Yeah, I mean, you just have such an interesting stark contrast. It almost feels like it's like phase one and phase two to use the terminology of, at the MCU. Before we get into Cinners and your relationship with Ryan, you know, you have two credits

with Khalil Joseph and Spike on docs. And I really like both of those docs that you worked on. And I'm curious, you know, and they're very different. Yeah. And they're very different. Khalil's film and the Beastie Boys movie. I met Khalil through a classmate at AFI. And we did a lot of stuff.

Like he was doing the Arcade Fire kind of documentary, but we were covering various concerts within that year. So I did the L.A. concert. Actually, Lowell Crawley did the London one. I think Malik Saeed did the Montreal one. And then I did Haiti and the L.A. one. And so... That's an insane trio, by the way.

Yeah. D.P. Back then, it was, you know, these are people that I think I might have known Lull because like we would exchange messages and stuff because we had some mutual friends. I have yet to meet Malik. He's like a mystery, man. Well, I messaged him. His first film credit in like 20 years last year.

It's crazy. No, he's a goat for sure. And I almost had a chance to meet him recently. But so it was really cool because if you watch the whole thing, they're all very different shows, especially the Haiti one. And so I love that stuff that I did with Khalil. He also creates a family. You feel like you're in a community. I'm good friends with Bradford Young. He's someone who recommended me to Ryan. And so Bradford's earlier work with Khalil, there's some say George. I don't know if you've seen this stuff. It's beautiful. And I remember when I saw it,

I was like, who shot that? And then the producer was like, I'll connect you. And that was the first time I was connected with Bradford after I saw that work because it was so like, singular and I needed to know who shot it and then obviously you know Bradford um but so I love doing that stuff you know I met a lot of great people in traveling with them and creating like communities with these people that I was making stuff with and then you know Spike with Gia like I obviously he was aware of my work with her and so I met Spike um and I did both of those together like we I knew that I was signing on to both and they were one after the other um and I actually just did a commercial with Spike so I reunited with them recently

recently for Instacart for the Super Bowl with Ben Stiller. So it's just, you're working with people you want to be friends with, honestly. I mean, that's the way that I feel. They're people that I would hang out with outside of work. We get along well. They're very, like, yeah, to use the word again, like singular. It's like these people have a very clear vision of how they like to do things. And I love that, you know.

I mean, I hope this is received in the right way. cinematographers and directors and their relationships are always really interesting sometimes they're like true partnerships and they share and sometimes they have

a kind of adversarial quality that does create something special at least in my understanding of movie history how do you what do you want what do you pursue like do you want a little tension

a little friction do you want it to just be we are same page lockstep all the way through like how do you think about it I mean I feel like I have made choices with people that are good people that respect the crew, that respect the crew's time, that bring me on to break bread because they know that I will add to that vision and have something to offer.

So it's a very kind of good environment, you know. I mean, we're in the thick of it, like when I'm doing movies with Ryan, you know, these are big projects. So, you know, stuff comes up where it's like, where we're in war. You know, not together. We're trying to make the movie. But we're always on the same page. I'm there to support that person. That's my job and their vision.

And so if I pick people that have visions that align with mine, it goes better for me. Not to say I haven't done projects with, I won't name those, you know, projects, but with people where it did not go great. And then you don't work with those people again, you know. Or you just know it's not the right fit because it's too much of a time commitment in your own personal self-insanity, I feel like to work with someone you don't like. Don't I know it.

I'm curious about what happens before you start shooting with a movie like sinners. You could speak to this for Wakanda Forever too, though I know it's a somewhat different experience. But I know the story of it being presented as a 16-millimeter project and then that changing at a certain point. But for you maybe personally, singularly, individually, And then also you and Ryan, like, what are you doing before the shoot begins? Yeah.

I mean, because I met him on Wakanda, like, there is no movie that's, in my opinion, that's going to be bigger than that. I mean, maybe if we do another movie, because he's just always doing, he's always up in the ante every time I get a phone call. It's like, we're doing that. What? So, but on that project, it lasted a year long. And, you know, which you've seen it.

And so it's like, you know, we did underwater. You know, we traveled a bit on that project. I mean, we were doing so much stuff on that movie, and it lasted a year long. So it's like, you really get to know somebody and, like, how they like to make films. And we make those films with the same team. So we got very close. And we, you know, and emotionally that film was kind of a big deal with for Ryan. And so it was like we were all really there for him and each other.

And so it was a great experience, but it was a lot of work. It was a lot of hard work. And so in going into sinners, it's funny because I always say like, oh, sinners might have been harder. And Ryan's like, really? But I think for me, it's like I care so much about him that it's always the first thing that for me is like him telling me what the movie means to him and what he's after. And so it's as simple as that. It's like a phone call he gives me. I read the script.

I send him an email because we're not living in the same town. and I kind of give my thoughts. I read the center script the night before I shot Showgirl, and so I wanted to get all my thoughts out, because that's when he sent it to me. And then we had a phone call after I finished that, because I was like an 18-day shoot, so it wasn't very long. And he just talks to me.

You know, he tells me what's important to him. We talk about character arc. He usually gives me a reference that means something that's very important. But that's the call. It's like he's that kind of filmmaker. It's like it's all inside of him. And he's so unique in how he writes and the characters he creates that like, I want to hear what he, what it means to him. And so I'll take notes.

I'll write that stuff down. And it happened on Wakanda too. Like there are a lot of through lines and kind of things that were important to him in that film. Like the female characters were more prominent in this round of film and migration. And so all these things I take notes. Yeah. What is that? How much of, how instructive is that script for you in terms of like the moves, the look, for centers in particular?

You know, sort of like, is he describing on the page? Because I haven't read the screenplay. Where the camera's moving, where it's going, what we're seeing in those moments, in a specific way that you want or that then becomes a discussion point between the two of you. I think I'm very curious about that partnership and kind of landing on what the film becomes versus what he puts on the page at the start. No, there isn't. And it's interesting because I just did a Q&A, a craft's Q&A. And Hannah Beakler, who's his production designer, who's like a sister to me, she was mentioning that since, because she's done everything with them, since the first time, there's less description.

And she was like, I wonder if that's because, like, we're a team now. And, like, you know, it's also when you probably start out. Maybe there's more description. It does feel like every department head now has been consistent over the last couple of movies, too. or it's like you guys must have like a hive mind a little bit with how you're working on the films. No, it's very nice. I mean, like you have to really find your place, you know, like in the world.

But like if your world is filmmaking, it's like it's very important. Like I feel like I thrive in the right environment. Like, you know, I've put myself in a place where, you know, I can do my best work. And I always tell students I was like, go look for that place. Because you don't know what it is until you find it. And you might not, you might be in that place and it's not the right place. But you have to take a jump. So with him, I do feel like, you know, it's always so fleshed out.

Like the characters feel so full and real, realized, which is very nice. You feel like you can't put it down when you read his scripts. Like they're very good. He's a very good screenwriter. It's funny. I'm always surprised by that after I read. I'm like, damn, that was a good script. Because, yeah, I don't get that many of them.

And I saw a text and I was like, you're really good at this. And very genuine. Yeah. So, no, it's, you know, it's, it's not in there, but it's, he's very clear. Like, he loves how to move the camera, as do I. And so when we're in our prep and we're boarding, he likes to board everything. And we do pre-vis on, you know, more complex things. It's all there, like in prep.

We go over it. And, you know, for instance, the grocery store one or like that, that's something that he wanted so that it was a very fluid shot that could show, you know, the black side of the and the white side of the street. So that's like a shot, for instance, that, you know, we talk about because he, you know, wants to do that in prep, and I have to figure out how to make that execute it logistically because it's very complex scene of lighting and camera. The one are inside the juke. That's something that's written, it was written in like a paragraph in italics, but we figure it out in prep. Like, you know, he's like, I would like it to be one fluid shot.

You know, so what tool do you think, you know, we're using there? And, you know, it's a discussion. So stuff like that. It's all very much like certain things I think he has in his mind are oneers or shots. And then we discuss it. Do you like a harder sequence like that, a more challenging sequence? I do, yes. Just because it's a problem-solving thing that is fun? Like what aspect of it do you enjoy?

I mean, I love stuff. And he's someone that I think I thrive in that environment where it's like, the more difficult the better. Like I'm very technical. and I love working things out, and I love that it ultimately doesn't look technical. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. That's how the movies feel. They feel like you were inside them. Yes, exactly. I want people to feel it. I want you to watch it and to feel it here.

And so all the stuff that goes into that takes such a big team. So many people working it out. But if you've done your job really well, then they don't feel like it's a shot in that way. you know, like they don't feel the hand of the creator. So he's like that. He's always like, you know, we're going to shoot large format. An orca's going to jump over the freeway and we're going to have a fight sequence. You know, it's like everyone's going to act underwater and we're going to figure it out, you know. And I'm like, game on.

You know, I have a really good crew. And so it's fun. It's a fun job when you have someone like that that wants to open up the box. I know you're very technologically minded when it comes to a whole. lot of this. And I said before we started, like, I would love for you to talk to me and the listeners of the show, like, I'm 11. So, like, I know anamorphic lenses is really important to you. Why, what does that mean and why is that important? Is something, because you can speak to its value, but, like, help us understand on a really ground level why this matters to the film and what it

accomplishes. Yeah. No, I'll speak to it, like, if you're 11, because I think even till this day, Like I do a lot of commercials and I love the anamorphic format. And then you'll say, let's shoot this commercial animorphic and the agency won't understand or it's too complex or VFX will push back or whatever. And it's like it's an understanding of something that they're making more technical than it needs to be. For me, it's a feeling. It's a lens. It's a particular format. But it's a lens that makes me feel differently.

And that's why I like to use it. And that's where it came from originally with me with 70s films. You know, like if I saw Manhattan, it's like, why does that look different? Why does Manhattan look different to me? You know, it was shot in anamorphic. And so for me, early on, I think, like, Vilmos, Zigman, you know, Laslo Kovacs, like these films, like I was watching these films, and they felt vintage, they felt different, they felt textured.

And so then I was like, what is that? You know, so at film school, I would take out an anamorphic lens. and I was shooting it, you know, mostly on film, 35 millimeter. So, you know, it's a squeeze factor. So it's taking a lens and squeezing it so it fits squeezed, like if you're 11. So just like we're squeezing the image onto a film gate and then we're unsqueasing it in projection. So you can do this in digital as well, obviously. You unsquease it digitally instead of, you know, you're not unsqueasing it in projection.

So it just, it has a different feeling. I'm getting twice the width. So I'm getting more field of view in the width. And it feels scopey. You know, it's why they say, you know, shoot it in scope. What about the edge of the frame? That's something that I'm always... Oh, that kind of effect that you get while watching it.

What creates that? Why is that interesting to you visually? Yeah, I mean, I do stuff to my lenses to make, if you're talking about more falloff or aberration and field curvature to get nerdy. All of these things, like I'll work with Panavision. I'm like 90% my whole career I've shot with Panavision Glass and early on in film school because I liked this animorphic format. And also we're talking about aspect ratio, right? So it's like, you know, spherically you can get a white screen aspect ratio.

But like I tend to like a movie that has more width. And so you're talking about black bars on top and bottom, right? If you're looking at your TV, that's a 178 to 1 ratio. So like it's going to fill your TV screen. That ratio was created for television. I don't like that ratio because it's not a real film ratio. But that's another conversation. Why were our TVs not created in the same way as our movie screens?

Well, that's the thing to get people. Yeah, you're staying home for a certain ratio. But also, so 16 by 9, which is 178, so those two ways you can say it. So yeah, so with anamorphic, I would take out anamorphic lenses from Panavision. They were more expensive at the time, you know, so I couldn't afford renting them. But they would give me different series. So different flavors. And what I mean by that is like some were created in the 70s, some were created in the 80s.

So all these different glass have different coatings on them, you know, chemical coatings that they don't really use anymore, which create different refractions of light, different bouquet, different flares, like color of the flare, like all this stuff. And so I got really used to knowing the different sets and series of lenses at Panavision. And also just falling in love with glass and knowing what that means. And so a lot of the stuff on the edges, like I'll detune the glass so that it has more fall off and brings your eye more to the center. Because I center punch most. What does that mean? I always put the character in the center of frame. It's a stronger frame for me.

It's how I like to frame, but also, like, you have to chase that. So if I'm framing you and you're going to get up from this table and you're going to walk over there to Jack, and you're going to do something like that whole, if I'm following you and panning with you, I'm going to keep you always in the center. And then say someone comes into the frame and you're now shooting an over, I'm still going to keep you in the center.

So the shoulder and the over is going to be far left or far right. But I'm always going to keep you in the center. And for me, it's an elegant way of framing, but it's also something that feels right to me. That's such a definitive choice in the film that like, is that something that you're verbally discussing? with Ryan because that approach creates real iconography. Like it puts a lot, like for somebody like Michael B. Jordan.

It makes him like more of a movie star when you're always center framing someone, you know, that every movement that they make, we are trailing them in the middle. So that's such an artistic choice. And then is that something that you guys are discussing? Is it just understood because you're both, you know, film artists and you understand the technology better than somebody who's just watching a movie and enjoying it? Yeah, I mean, I do it. It comes like, it's a personal choice.

Like, I can't, now I can't get out of it. Like, this is like when, if I have a B camera operator, like, I'm like, you know, I'm like on the comms yelling at them. Like, you have to fix that. But I work with the same people, so they know about my center punching. And then when they go work for someone else, it messes the other person up that doesn't want that. Right, right. No, I think on Panther would be our first time doing it.

You know, so he's familiar with that. You know, it's something that I like to do. you know, when you're starting to work with someone for the first time and you're doing tests or, but they also, they see your work, you know, so it's, you know, you're being hired for your expertise and your taste. So I'm sure Ryan's very smart. So it's like, you know, he knows that's something that I like. But when he doesn't want that, then he'll tell me. I remember there was a frame that we were doing with Mbaku and Shiri in the forest. And he asked me to put her, like, they were more weighted on the left side, you know, of the frame because he wanted to fill in Baku's weight, like imposing on her. It was such a beautiful choice. And I remember when he came up to me, he's like, you know, let's adjust this. And I was like, huh, you know, like my, because I have to, because I have this tick. And it was beautiful.

And it was funny. After we shot it, I was like, that was really good. And I went up to him and I was like, that was amazing. And I remember if you watched that scene back, I should text it to you that frame. It's very important. And it was a really cool choice. So there's those those kind of conversations. you'll always have with, like, if you want to adjust it from that, for, you know, bolder choice,

you do it. But yeah, it's, it's how I like to frame, to be honest. It's really cool, but it is, like, definitional, you know, it doesn't just become your style, but it becomes the style of the film in a way that maybe it wasn't even the original intent, but only you are bringing that to it. So that's just, like, incredible detail. It works well with this, like, two ratio thing as well, too, because... Can you, yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. So it's IMAX. 65 and Panavision 70. Well, it's, so it's ultra, the phrase, and this is really proprietary to them when they made it in the 50s,

ultra Panavision 70s. So the 70 comes from the film projection, right? That's different from super. Well, Super Panavision is a different format. That's a 220 to 1 different lens. So the ultra Panavision 70 is anamorphic format. So it's a 1.3 squeeze lens. So that's just the math of the squeeze. And then when you unsquease it, it gives you. you a 2.76 to 1 aspect ratio. And so that is proprietary to Panavision. So that's a system. So it's like if you shoot like hateful eight shot ultra Panavision 70, so if you're going to put on a poster for instance, because that's what happened. And that's so wide. It's very wide, yes. So but

IMAX is tall. Exactly. So if I'm center punching, you know, when I'm shooting, and it's 65 millimeter even though it's coined with the 70 projection. So it's 65 millimeter 5-perf. And then we also shot 65 millimeter same film stock, 15 perf for IMAX. So it's taller. But if I'm centerweighting the character in the frame and the crosshair of the 143 aspect ratio, which is the tall aspect ratio, when I go to do my 276 extraction, the person is still centered in the frame, right? And you're cropping the top and bottom. So it's very helpful if you do center. punch and you're really elegant about chasing that is that when you go to do your extraction, for all the viewers that view the 276, because that's most 90% of the theaters.

Typical laser projection. You're not having to do too much adjustment. Like obviously we did, you know, when you do your QC and your DCP and you have to do Pan and scan, you know, if you have to find the frame and make sure that like if I chop the 276 that I'm not chopping like Jack's head off, you know. Is that something that you knew? Does that inform the center framing in a way where you're like if we're going to do this audacious kind of double format approach to it that we need there's only kind of one way to shoot the movie like where there have been other ways to have done it to accomplish that so you're still getting enough in the frame no matter how it's being projected? I mean I guess it's a bonus that I love to do that right and it works out but like I operate a camera and I have a crazy ground glass right so if I'm shooting IMAX in my ground glass I have 190 which is digital IMAX.

projection, which is not your full, right? If you went to Citywalk or if you go to Burbank Town, you know, you're getting the 190. And so I had the 143, the 190, the 276. I also think I had ticks in there for 239, which is irrelevant, but they were there confusing, you know. This is a lot. This is a lot. I mean, it is like a fascinating series of choices that, you know, I've seen the movie in a couple of different formats. I've actually not, I've seen it at home, but not on typical like AMC laser projection. I've been able to see it, I think, in 70 and in IMAX. Did you go to CityWalk?

I saw it at the IMAX headquarters. Oh, you did? Okay, so you went to the other screenings. I'm very spoiled and lucky that I could see it there. I know that's where you guys tested it, right? Exactly. So that was a nice print. Did you sit up top and in the center or not in the front?

I sat center right, which is my preference. Okay. It's not a good seat. It's a good seat. Okay, yeah. Every seat's kind of not bad there. No, I always say it's the best movie theater in America, but not a lot of people get to go there, so I don't want to brag too much. But yeah, I mean, all of this is, it's simultaneously very confusing and very interesting.

And, you know, Ryan has been such an advocate for format and the way that you see something and helping people understand. It's been kind of a signature aspect of promoting the movie and even the awards campaign. And I think it's good to make fans a little bit nerdier about these things. You know, I assume this has been fun for you to also, you know, explain the work that you do in a way that, like, most DPs never get to. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm here, right? Like, I feel like it's one of those things where you see now on, like, Instagram where, like, they want to know more. Like, they don't just want to know, like, oh, you know, the things that, you know, the normal BTS, it's like, people are becoming their own filmmakers now. Like, the tools are tinier.

They are being, you know, social and putting people out there making little films with smaller cameras. So even though you're making a big film, they want to know how you made that film. And so it's been fun to talk about. And then Ryan also cares about the audience. And so he wants to put that information in their hands so they can go and make choices on projection. Because it does mean, you know, if I want to see the movie and I want to see exactly what I saw, then I have to go to Citywalk to see it because I want to, or, you know, if you see the IMAX headquarters screening. But otherwise everyone's seeing a crop version, which is a different feeling, different film.

Is it painful for you to watch it that way? No, because I love, like, for instance, the Dolby pass that we did. You know, higher contrast ratio. So like deep blacks, beautiful projection. And I really like that. And the Dolby is only 276. Interesting. Yeah.

What was the most challenging sequence image moment in the movie to actually capture to pull off? I've answered that a lot because I think people think I'm going to say something else. But for me, it's really the ending. I think for me that the most challenging stuff is the stuff that has the most VFX. Because I'm not, you know, it's something that I can't control in the moment. I wanted to ask you about that because I know Wakanda Forever also had it. But the movie almost like, I'm sure you didn't shoot linearly. but the final 10 minutes is very different visually, daytime, VFX shots in the frame.

So, like, what's hard about that? Why is that so tough? Well, actually, not the daytime stuff, the fight in the river when he is in flames. Right. So obviously, but funny enough, nor not funny enough, but like, we did shoot. You know, SFX had a guy in stunts, had a guy in a fire suit. So someone was on fire in that pool of water. And we did shoot it as a reference, right? Because then they have to manipulate it.

And we did a pass with Jack. And then we did a pass with stunts. And then we put everything together. And that's what becomes a VFX shot. So I think for me, I always want that stuff to look as real as possible. Now, like, no one's going to shoot a guy burning alive, obviously. But that would be the way to get the best-looking thing is doing everything for real. They used to do pretty close to that.

So it's like, I'll kind of burn myself for this. But no, it's like, so I just want to make sure that the audience is always in it and is not, nothing is broken, right? So that is where I put the most pressure on myself to make sure that I work with our VFX supervisor, Michael Rala, and we're close. We met on Panther. He did our second unit. He was our second unit supervisor.

So we have a very close working relationship. And it's always rooted in as much as in camera as possible, as much as in camera reference to give him as possible. So that ultimately the image looks as really. as possible. And I don't feel the hand of this like the effects, you know, hand. So that scene, it's also a night shoot, which is very difficult. We had the structure of like when the sun rises, we have to wrap. So we're always chasing that right in time. And, you know, when you do stunts and something really complex like that, wires and all that stuff that we had to do, it takes a lot of time. It can be very tedious. So that was the hardest scene for me, I think. And mostly just because

there was a lot of elements that needed and then the sunrise. I just asked Paul Thomas Anderson this and I'm wondering how you would answer it. There are a few moments in the movie that I would describe as ecstatic. Certainly, though, I lied to you moment that you described earlier,

the sort of traveling through the musical history at the juke joint. The Rocky Road to Dublin sequence, I think, is also similarly, like, kind of fills you up. How do you know when you're on set that you're kind of getting getting it, you know, that you're getting the idea that Ryan has, the vision that you have for it, the collaboration, all the departments are feeling excited about what they have. The actors feel good. And you're like, we got it right on this take, on this day. Like, how do you know? You just know. What does that mean?

I think, well, there's layers to that, right? So it's like, if you put yourself in a community of filmmakers where you guys have the same. and you're after the same vision, that helps, right? Because I know Ryan really well, and I know what he likes, and I know what he doesn't like, and I know that it's all rooted in the emotion of something. And as an operator, like, I know when that's coming, like getting, you know, when it's getting across to the audience. Like, I know in my heart, I know in my eye, like I know when I see it. I'm in the church.

I'm operating the crane. I'm seeing Saul give that performance with Miles. and I know, like, I can see it because I'm looking at it through an eyepiece or on a monitor, and you feel it. And it's as simple as that. Like, when you're working with this caliber of actors and, you know, how Ryan works with them on set,

like you can feel it. You feel it in the space, and you know when, you know the take that's right. Like, ultimately, like, in editorial, because that process is, you know, after, you know, I shoot it, I'm always excited to see him and Michael Schavers pass of something because it's always beautiful

and, you know, I feel the weight of it is much more than me doing, like, multiple takes and knowing which take is great. Are you ever surprised by what they choose? I was, I don't know, on this film was so elegant. I, you know, I was just, I loved every take and I loved every scene. I think most of the movie got used. I think there's probably a couple things that are on the DVD thing. But, no, it was, it was, it was just beautiful. Like, this was a great film, and you knew it on set that it was great.

You knew a special. You didn't know what was going to happen ultimately. like what has happened. But yeah, you know, like the Rocky Road to Dublin, like, people are bringing their A-game, you know. And Ryan's very excited. You know, he's running around. Again, with the sun, like, we had to rush because the sun was coming up. So, but we got it.

You know, there were things that Ryan wanted, like, you know, obviously we tipped down to his feet. So he'll, you know, he's watching. He's right there next to the lens with the operator. So if it's on steady cam, like I'm watching on a monitor and talking to my operator. But yeah, I mean, it's a feeling. One thing I was curious to hear you speak about, talk to our friend Van about this before, we were just talking about the way that this studio looks and is lit.

But like different faces need to be lit differently. And there has to be like a real sensitivity to the way that different actors with different coloring have to be shot. So how do you know to have the right sensitivity to that? And how do you balance what the actor wants with what the filmmaker wants, with what you want, and what is the right middle ground there? Because obviously, especially well-known actors,

you know, they have a lot of sensitivities to these things. Yeah, I mean, every film's different. So if I'm doing like, like, for example, like with Pamela, I'll just start there and then I'll go into the- Pamela Anderson, yeah. Right? Like, that was a movie that we were making. She wasn't wearing makeup.

Like, she trusted G&I. You know, there was some makeup like Jamie had a look a vibe, but like Jamie Lee Curtis, but like, and then, you know, Dave Batista, he had a wig, you know, obviously. And so there were certain looks, but like there was a trust there with Pamela that she just wanted to be herself and raw. So like, that's lovely. Then there's the other side of that where it's like, and I'm not sure I've, you know,

I've mostly maybe done it more on commercial work, or if you have someone that wants to be lit a specific way and then you're going to have, you know, a talk about it as a DP. That's difficult. Like I can say it's someone who's older that wants to be filled in and lit, you know, a completely different way that is different than the world you're creating on set. And that's hard, right? Because it's like, I'm always going to think about the story in the world I'm creating on set and then try and make that person look good within that same framework. But if I have to light someone completely separate from everybody else, it's not going to fill of the same world. And you've seen those movies, right, where you're just like, oh, now we're in that zone.

There's Vaseline on this lens. Yeah. why. Or just, yeah, it's like this person is high key lit, but then the guy isn't. And it's like, well, what are they? What pool of light is this person? You can always tell. Yes.

So not my favorite. And then there's this movie where it's like, you know, Ryan is very trusting. You know, he knows how much I love lighting and how much I like it to be a character, but also like top light. I really like top light. And if I'm doing night exterior, like I want to use a top lit source that recreates the moon, especially if you're in the middle of nowhere in the 1930s, that's what's going to be lighting these people.

But then you get, you know, you're going to get a darker eye. And everyone has to be okay with that. There's a lot of hats in the film. Everyone has to be okay with that. But I am shooting a horror vampire movie. So if I'm getting a call from someone saying like, oh, people's eyes are looking too dark, it's like, I am shooting a vampire horror movie.

And Ryan and I are on the, you know, we're on the same page as far as like what that means for the film. And that, you know, having people fall in and out of shadow is a beautiful thing and trusting that and trusting that like, you know, I like to light black people in a certain way that it makes them look beautiful. And I don't feel like to make somebody that's darker skin look beautiful, I have to like shit a lot of light on them and like overlight them because someone's afraid that they're going to go into darkness. Because there's reflective qualities of, you know, darker skin that are also beautiful. So there's all these things

that come up for sure. But you have to just be brave about. it and say like this is the vision and and the people around you that are going to be like, you know, a wary of that. You have to just say, I got this. Like, this is the right call. That makes a lot of sense. Hearing you describe it as a vampire horror movie, was there, was there a movie maybe just for you or maybe between you and Ryan that you discussed that was like the most useful reference for how it should look, the thing? Yeah. Well, I think it's for how it should look, he gave me like I mean we work in it it's like

I don't feel like him and I are always like this is how the movie should look like example A you know because we work more from here right it finds itself a little bit differently because I'm so much a person that loves to work with the designer and the costume designer like Ruth and Hannah

and we're all such a collaborative team that we're building a space that feels real and is referenced from the 30s now it's more stylized right and then you take liberties there. But the thing is like one of his favorite films. He brought it up. I love that film, also anamorphic.

The tension it creates, it's moody, it's textured. So all of those, I draw from all of that, right? It's not that we're made. That's like the reference. But it's a reference for lots of different things. And then the photographs that he gave me were black and white photographs from Yodora Welty. That was my biggest draw. But it wasn't for lighting.

Like, I feel like I feel like I have to create that with the designer a little bit because, you know, we're making it out of nothing. You know, she built every set. So are those photographs, like out of creating a sense of reality or authenticity or, like, what is it that is it communicating? I mean, it's a feeling, right? There's so much humanity in those photographs that he sent me. After I got the book, you know, it's like this one moment in time that feels so special. And it's real, right?

So you're looking at something that, you know, this woman was walking around. She was a short storywriter in 1930s, and it was all there for her. Like, it was happening before her eyes. And, you know, it's like I always thrive off of looking at photography references because they're real people in real spaces. And that's what I'm doing. We're playing make believe. Like, let's, you know, just be real here.

It's like storytelling, but like it's all make believe. And I need to make it so real that you believe that it's true. Like you believe Michael's two people. You believe he's a vampire. You believe cornbread's out there, you know, like these have to feel like real people. And so if everyone's doing their job at a really high level, it does feel like that photograph. And so that's what I'm after. I'm trying to make it like as good as that photograph that Ryan was like, because that's what he liked about the photographs.

Yeah. It was a world that, you know, felt really like his uncle's world, you know, when he was listening to the blues music on the porch. Just hearing you say the thing immediately reminded me of the scene where cornbread's at the juke joint door. And I was like, that's the thing seen in the movie. You know, where he's just like, what is the truth of what is happening inside of this person? That was scary when we shot that, dude. It was scary. It's really, I mean, he's so good.

I'm operating, right? And he's just like about there. And we shot at high speed, so the camera's very loud, 60 frames. I wanted to ask you, in general, is the IMAX camera, like, just different load, harder, harder on actors? Yeah, I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax, right? So it's one of those things where, like, everyone. one's just on board because you're not going to get a more beautiful image from anything, in my opinion, now that I've shot it.

So, and I thought that when I saw The Dark Night, you know, in the bank sequence, I was like, is there anything better than this fucking scene? Yes. There is not. Yeah, I know what you mean. So when you get that camera in your hands, you're ultimately very aware of, like, what it can do. And so you want to, like, you know, really utilize it. And it's louder, but it doesn't matter because you want to utilize it.

So you kind of create a world where everyone, you know, well, you have to have the best technicians, right? Because like the focus pulling on that is insane. And the loud aspect of it, it's like Ryan turned scenes that were supposed to be anamorphic into IMAX. So then he has to have a talk with the actors to make sure they're okay with it. Because it's like a lawnmower. So say you're there and I'm two to three feet from your face and you have to pretend like you're not shouting over a camera. Yeah, yeah, I talked to Adrian Brody and Brady Corby about that with the Visivision camera on Brutalist 2, where it's like Lull obviously had to operate that with all of those close-ups and the intimacy. It just seems like it is the way that things used to work and then we stopped doing it.

And actors have gotten more comfortable with digital over the years too where like the performance styles I feel like have to change pretty dramatically to be able to work in that way. I'm always curious to hear how actors feel about that too. Well, it's also like they're doing a great job, right? Yeah, no, it's working in this movie for sure. And then, I mean, they do ADR after, but there's still a guide track there and there's still a feeling that you need to capture in order to remember that later, right? Because, you know, like on that resolution, on 100-foot screen in Lincoln Center, like you see everything. So if someone's not doing a great job and you feel like there's a loud camera in the space, like audiences are going to see that. But they did a beautiful job.

And yeah, it's a slower pace. There's a respect that needs to happen on set for that type of pacing in camera system. It kind of goes back to what we were talking about. Like, we're making a movie, you know, the Ben Hur of it all and the Lawrence of Arabia, like the David Lean. I just had to do a thing where I documentary interview about David Lean. And it's such a beautiful thing to be able to discuss, like, how he made films in him in general, because, like, I would love to make films like that all the time. The budgets, you know, everything's become like less budget, less time.

But if you're given, you know, the accurate resources to telescopey movie and you can actually, like, travel to those places with heavy cameras and wait for the sun, then that'd be amazing. This is the lesson of this award season, though. I'm like, just empower these people to make these movies, which are expensive. But they will pay out if you, and people want them. Like, they want the large format story. They want the epic experience. Like, it is very much, I think where, in general, movie going is going. Like, people want to have that experience where they're kind of overreesome.

overwhelmed by something the same way a lean film will. I've kept you for a long time. I mean, it's like you just could talk for ages. It's nice to hear that. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Oh, yeah, I do remember you asked that. You know what yours is?

Could be old or new. Okay. What did I see? Well, I'm not saying TV. Please don't say TV. It's not the last thing I actually. watched. Okay. Some TV shows can be cinematic. True.

Well, I mean, I mean, to be honest, Lawrence of Arabia. So what, because I was re-watching it because I went to go do the interview. What was the documentary you were sitting for? Well, about David Lean.

A documentary about David Lean. Okay. Interesting. Who's making it? Are you allowed to say? Well, I shouldn't because I'm... Okay. Yeah. It's not, it was just they're making it. But I'll send it to you. But I'll send it to you. Please do. Did you look at a bunch of his films? Because he's another too kind of like started more modestly

in his early films and then kind of is building up to this period in the 50s and 60s when he has these huge canvases. I mean I did a little like you know snippets of Javago and like you know did my toe in a couple things to refresh right expectations stuff like that

but I think that was the last because I've been a little busy doing stuff so I felt like I took some time to revisit that film otherwise like you know sometimes TV I'm watching planes and stuff. But I don't have to talk about that.

But yeah, so I revisited that. And I was just like, wow. You know, it's so, it does it every time to me. And I'm watching it on my TV, obviously. But like the scene, for instance, where O'Too goes, like, they go to the well and he has, you know, his partner with him. And then you see that one lone black figure come up in the middle center punched in frame. And they're both flanking the edges of the anamorphic frame.

Or no, actually, it's not. No, no, it's not. Actually, I think that's super Vannevision. And they're there, and it's like, it's just he comes up and then obviously he shoots him. But like that frame, and I was like, this is the frame that I have in my head all the time. This is the format, this widescreen scopy format with the center punch guy and the beautiful frame. It's a great full circle. Autumn, thanks for doing the show.

Yes, thank you so much. Yes. Okay, thanks to Autumn. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Later this week, Scream 7. And after much demand, Nirvana, the band, the movie, which you have now seen. I have seen. I think I'm, like, elbowing my way into this episode.

Yes, well, you're more than invited now that you've seen the film. And I can't wait to hear the Matt Johnson conversation. He is an elite guest, and it is an elite conversation. We will see you then.