The Big Picture - The Francis Ford Coppola Hall of Fame and ‘Megalopolis’

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Sean and Amanda do their best to parse through the messiness of Francis Ford Coppola’s ‘Megalopolis,’ starring, among others, Adam Driver, Nathalie Emmanuel, and Aubrey Plaza (1:00). They discuss the circuitous journey Coppola took to finally making the film, the convoluted plot (and at times lack thereof), and the ambition in comparison to the actual execution of the final product. Then, they launch into the Coppola Hall of Fame, selecting 10 movies to enshrine from his uniquely boom-or-bust career, which features legendary movies like ‘The Godfather’ and ‘Apocalypse Now’ alongside historic financial and qualitative bombs (53:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Complete offer eligibility criteria by March 31st, 2025. Choose one of five eligible charities. Up to $500,000 in total contributions. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Francis Ford Coppola. Today on the show, we are discussing Megalopolis, the decades-in-the-making passion project from one of our signature American filmmakers.

We'll talk about the film and its quality and our hilarious screening experience seeing this movie together. And we'll build Coppola's Hall of Fame together. This is also the last episode in theory before Amanda goes on leave. Yes. When you're listening to this,

one way or another, I'm on leave. Yeah, that's right. Right? What's the other way? I don't know. You know know we're in the phase who can say what happened but I did many months ago I set my my ship my stars my calendar by Megalopolis and I'm proud to say I made it I've seen the film I'm not in labor yet

we're recording this and this is the last like like technically it's pre-recorded, but you know. Only barely. And I got to just say, take my hat off to you. Thank you. You are an absolute star. Thank you. I'm so impressed with you. I wanted to do it.

I mean, it's here. We've been waiting. No, you're doing amazing. And you know, that's maybe the last time I'll use the word amazing for the next 30 minutes or so. Amazing has different connotations. That's a good point. Amazing in that this is powered by stars in a unique way. What that power is is something we'll sort through.

So Megalopolis, of course, one of the most anticipated movies, I think, of my lifetime. It's a movie that started in the imagination of Coppola in 1977, which is smack dab in the middle of one of the most remarkable decades in American movie making. And he's been plotting and scheming and reconstituting and refiguring this movie over a very, very long period of time. We've read an entire book about how this movie has lived inside of Coppola. We talked about that book a few months ago on the podcast. Sam Lawson's fascinating story

of Coppola's life and career. And the movie's finally here. We had heard out of the Cannes Film Festival, I would say mixed reviews. Sure. Largely negative, but there were, this movie has its defenders.

Its celebrants, also. It does, it does. And I... Then there was a long period where we were concerned that we would not be able to see it because um in addition to plotting this for 40 years francis ford coppola financed this movie himself sold off part of his wine business uh reportedly cost 120 million at least to make which he funded and so he went to Cannes without a distributor. And it premiered there for the lucky people who went to France.

We were not among them. Talk to Sean. And then there was also a screening here for, you know, the industry's elite. That I would say did not go as Coppola might have hoped. I'm glad you brought that up. It didn't have distribution for a long time, and we actually did not know when the movie-going public, just fans of cinema, would actually be able to see Megalopolis.

So that screening in particular, which was widely covered in the trades, and you could see the both-sides-ing in the trades coverage. There were initial stories about how the film was very poorly received, and it was a real what's it, and the executives who were there to potentially acquire the film had no idea what to make of it, but they didn't like it. Right. And then there was some ex post facto coverage that was like,

actually, it was a great success, and here's why, and here's what Coppola thought in the aftermath of it. Some time went by before Lionsgate picked the movie up. I have since talked to I would say about five people who were at that first screening. All five of them without fail were like, boy, this movie doesn't work.

My goodness. And you know me. My intention with this show, my intention with my movie-going life is to love a movie. And if it's a movie from a great master, I really, really want to love a movie. I want it's a movie from a great master, I really, really want to love a movie. I want to understand it as a part of the fabric of their work,

but I also, in the individual experience, want to have fun, want to learn something, want to feel deeply. Yeah, you're not a hater. I'm not a hater. You go to, it's church for you. Yes, and I want to be praiseful

and praiseworthy. And I will just open this conversation by saying it pains me to say that i am not uh praiseful of this you're not one of the celebrants i'm not and and i think this will be an interesting way to talk through what is good about an idea versus what is good about the execution of an idea and this movie is an interesting example because of its incredible scope and theoretical imagination and its actual execution and failures thereof that make for a fascinating document of pop culture it's an amazing piece of cinematic history it is an incredible piece of performance art and an expression of Francis Ford Coppola's art and career over time that is like, does feel essential to his narrative. catching up with coworkers before we started recording this and even plotting with Jack and

Bobby how to open this. And we're just like really dancing around how many different ways can we say the movie's not good. It didn't work for us. It didn't work for us. It doesn't work. And I confess, like I remain completely confounded by like almost everything that I saw. Not like narratively, I guess. I know what the movie's about, but particularly visually and tonally and from the connection from what I understand of Coppola's intention and life's work and what I like madly respect.

And then like what I saw on the movie screen I have not yet been able to connect it we've only seen it once we've only seen the two-hour cut you know Jack was speculating maybe there's a four and a half hour cut that will restore everything and make sense maybe who am I and I let me also say like I'm a little disappointed in myself you You know, like. How so? I wanted to go. I wanted to be one of the admirers. So let's talk about our screening experience before we get too much further into the movie. Because one, it's just, we had a fun experience going to see this movie. It was a unique way of seeing the movie.

And two, I think that will inform how the world may receive it while we talk about what it is and what it is not. So we saw it together. You saw it nine and what it is not. So we saw together, you saw nine and a half months pregnant, God bless you, at an AMC, across the country on this Monday night at IMAX theaters. This film was having a kind of one-time only experience, an immersive IMAX experience it was called,

where before the film, there was a Q&A between Dennis Lim, who was one of the key curators at the New York Film Festival, and he was interviewing Francis Ford Coppola, Robert De Niro, who does not appear in this movie, and Spike Lee, who has nothing to do with this movie either. Let me also just say the chyrons identifying Robert De Niro and Spike Lee identified them as panelists.

Yes. Rather, panelists Robert De Niro and panelists Spike Lee. Not treasures to world cinema, but panelists. The Q&A itself, which I think Dennis Lim approached with a sincerity and thoughtfulness, but very quickly veered out of his control, was a terribly strange way to begin our Megalopolis experience. Now, you and I come to this already knowing a lot about the production and history of megalopolis and francis ford coppola comes prepared to talk through his own arcane history of movie productions and just about anything else that pops into his mind um

yes among other things the nation of haiti and octopuses were discussed by francis ford coppola james dean don't forget yeah i truly i I cannot tell you how weird this was. It was incredibly entertaining. I loved it. Yes. And I had, you know, I had texted you the night before once I became aware that the Q&A would be preceding the movie. And I was like, I don't know about this. Like, I don't know if I want to hear one of the great filmmakers of, I guess, our lifetimes, also before our lifetimes. In American movies just pontificate

about Marcus Aurelius for like three hours before his long movie you know and I told Zach my husband people

like make fun of the fact that I identify him as my husband it's just a little disclaimer here you know we're journalists

who are people I don't know but when he showed up on the the draft. What draft? Right. Everyone was like, oh, it's my husband, Zach Barron.

And I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm sure I say it a lot, but I don't know. I don't know how many of you are listening all of the time. Don't apologize or even acknowledge such commentary. I told Zach that there was going to be a Q&A before the screening. And he's like, okay, so I'll see you at midnight. Because he has interviewed Francis Ford Coppola. He interviewed him actually right before the making of this movie. I think it was late 2021.

Right before they were going to production. And it was a lot about it. And I think Zach would tell you it was like one of the great journalistic experiences of his life. Like Coppola is a thinker and incredibly charming and a talker, but like my guy will just do like balls act for 30 minutes in the middle, you know? And so he sort of did. He basically was that in that. So this interview was live streamed around the country. It was taking place in New York, but we all saw it on the big IMAX screen and Coppola was prepared. He was prepared to talk specifically about the ideas he cares about and also to veer off the roads.

The presence of De Niro and Spike Lee was obviously they are legends of New York and they are friends of Coppola's and they're there to support him with the release of this movie. But I mean, they had very little to contribute. Right. And also the first question to them from Dennis Lim was, Bobby, Bob, Bobby. How did you, do you remember meeting Francis for the first time? And before De Niro could wake up to speak, and I know I'm saying that, but I took like

18 different photos of the screen and all of them, his eyes do look closed. I kept like waiting for a moment where I could get De Niro's. Yeah, I love him so much what a treasure but before deniro could answer the question coppola just jumped in and was like let me tell you this very long story about how martin scorsese maybe introduced us before godfather but i don't remember i mean most of these stories were not very good um it was a remarkable thing. I guess it was roughly 35 minutes. Yeah. There was a detour in which Robert De Niro began speaking, as he often moment, which I think he feels deeply and also is movie marketing, you know.

But never said the word Trump. And then just sort of unprompted, you know, like he woke up and De Niro just interjected, Donald Trump could not direct this movie, which is a fact. You know, having seen the movie, what we're meant to take away from that observation is less clear to me, but... It's possible that no human could have directed this movie, which I'd like to... You know, there's no accounting for taste in presidential candidates, but I thought that was a very odd way for De Niro to frame that aspect of this conversation. Nevertheless, every time he talked... It's an emphasis on structure.. Nevertheless, every time he talked, I was laughing because he was sort of like an on-message candidate. Like,

he only knew how to talk about one thing. Spike, on the other hand, was just making jokes and cracking himself up and running off and coming back into his seat like he often does. You know, having a 35-minute preamble before a movie is not typically a good idea. Yeah. I was just saying to you recently that even at Telluride, where the filmmaker comes out and presents their movie for like two minutes beforehand and tells you a little something about the movie that they've made, I'm like, I don't even want that. Like, you should be proud of it, and I'm happy to stay afterwards for the Q&A, but don't tell me anything before I sit down. I don't want to know anything. Right. But you did also, when I was bitching about it, say to me, and a fairly immortal quote, which is, you may be pregnant, but he's almost dead. Let him cook. Which, fair, you know?

Yes. And so, cook he did. You know what? He's 85 years old, and he was tremendously cogent during all of his speaking before the film. Incredibly charming. It was weird, and it was not connected to anything. And you and I were just having the time of our lives. It was a lot of fun. I was so happy.

And so the energy in the room got a little bit noisier and happier and more excited, I think, even than it had been. It was a very cinephilic, pretty bro-y screening. It was a lot of, I shouldn't speak for anyone this is stereotyping you're talking to my boys right now but i had a brutal boy's energy i was almost run over by a seeming brutal boy and his dog that now that is a fucking party um don't bring your goddamn dog to the movie theater i 1000 agree and you know how I feel about dog owners generally. Not dogs, dog owners.

That dog didn't make a peep. That's true. So shout out. Good dog. Listen, good dog. That was a good boy. And good responsibility. Just don't bring your dog to the movies.

It was a little alarming. Like I don't, I'm not like very nimble right now. So to like get out of the way of the brutal boy and the dog and the leash, like before, because they were like rushing to not miss anything.

And I was just like, this is very high stakes. People are really, really turnt right now. I'm trying to imagine an alternate reality where you actually do get knocked over by a man and his dog in the hallway of the IMAX room. And you're screaming in pain while the screening is about to transpire. And all the brutal boys are just like. Not now, lady. There's cinema to consume. It was really. screaming in pain while the screening is about to transpire. And all the brutal boys are just like, not now lady, there's cinema to consume. It was really notably dudes heavy.

There were many men. Yeah. And there are often many, there are often many men at, at film events, you know? Yeah. But this to me,

even also lots of, lots of young people, you know, which on the one hand i love it you know my take on that movies are back with young people that's true that's true this kind of a thing movies are back right but why don't you why don't you tease out this kind of a thing quote unquote well the movie itself i mean let's just talk about it we'll talk about it in depth before getting into the hall of Fame. We'll try to avoid spoilers in the early parts of the conversation. I would not say this is a terribly

spoilerable film. There are events that transpire. There is a character arcs. There are things that we'll talk about that happen. But when you're watching it, it does not feel like you're watching The Godfather. It's something much different. The film itself is significantly more

philosophical. But there are characters, there is a story. So in a decaying metropolis called New Rome, which is effectively Rome implanted into New York City. CGI'd into New York City. CGI'd. An architect named Caesar Catalina is granted a license by the federal government

to demolish and rebuild the city as a sustainable utopia using something called Megalon, which is a material that can give him the power to control space and time. So that is all true, but is already like if I were grading your paper, I would just be like, how do you know all of this? Like you need to show. The film does not clearly explain particularly the part about the federal government granting the license. Yes, sure. That part is very unclear. Now, it's very clear that he sort of controls Megalon. Right. And that's a lot of like spinning newspapers and stuff, right?

It's the golden material. No, no, no. I know. But how literally how the information is communicated to us the audience yes is mostly like newsreels and you know fake cable news yeah sure right which there's plenty of that in this film um in the film caesar catalina who was played by adam driver the great adam driver uh his nemesis is the mayor of new rome his name is franklin cicero

right he's portrayed by gincarlo esposito and he is trying to maintain happy to announce that the name of my child is franklin cicero so francis and i at least rely on that i actually like that torn between them is cicero's daughter julia socialite, who we see early in the film fraternizing with the layabouts, the club goers of New Rome. And Julia is a beautiful woman who is looking for, I don't know, her fate, her destiny, clarity in life, love, unclear. It's a clear direction of which page we're filming today. Yeah, she's portrayed by Natalie Emanuel,

who people remember from the Fast movies and from Game of Thrones. And the movie is essentially this kind of snapshot of the fall and rise of an empire. And we see it primarily through the eyes of the Caesar character, but it's kind of a multi-POV story about all these crazy inhabitants,

some of whom clearly are one-to-one matches for figures from Roman history. It's hilarious that the meme about men in Rome and the fall of Rome is made manifest in this movie. Yeah, it's true. And so the movie becomes this weird blend it's like it is a kind of historical epic it is a sort of American political parlor game movie it is a satire of the media it is a great man movie it is a kind of godfather-esque family drama yeah it's a very schlocky sort of soap opera at times it is also just borrows plot twists like literally from shakespeare

throughout and it's just like oh now we will do this shakespeare scene yes and then the the narrative will follow that way which you know if know, if you're going to borrow from someone, not that bad. No, and the movie has a lot of kind of political agitpon in it. You know, it has this like, Coppola has been posting on Instagram about all of the film's myriad influences. You know, the David Graeber books

of the last five or six years. Francis Fukuyama's writing. Herman Hess novels. Like, he's blending a lot of ideas ideas, candidly, not very coherently. Um, and I think what ultimately my, I have a lot of issues with the movie that didn't really work for me. And I like not just the ambition, but the desire to make a movie about something in this time. And to sort of say like the world that we've built up, which is full of people who are consumed by their distractions, you people who are consumed by their distractions

you know or consumed by their possessions like that seems to be a big through line of the movie as we've lost sight of not just the American character but like the human character and then we need to focus on being more connected to each other and more open-minded with each other so that we can go forward together it reminds me a little bit of the um the discourse that alex garland was proposing through civil war which you disagreed with or didn't appreciate danger will robinson but it is a somewhat similar general idea you know and and obviously coppola has been talking about this out loud and the movie wants to be that and then what the movie became very quickly clear to me is that it is ultimately only a great man movie about how the only man, the man who is encouraging us to embrace debate, but the only man who can solve the problems is the man who controls Megalon and has all the good ideas.

And that is the man portrayed by Adam Driver, who was very clearly a stand-in for Francis Ford Coppola. So when you get to that conclusion, you could be like, well, that's dope that an 85-year-old man is like, I'm the only guy who knows how to do everything. It's funny. Right. Unfortunately, like then you watch like his imagined utopia, which is, you know, like Megalopolis, the project and the film stands in for his imagined idea of like, how can we fix whether it's cinema or the world or whatever? And then you're like, well, this doesn't make a lot of sense, how can we fix whether it's cinema or the world or whatever. And then you're like, well, this doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? So, yeah. And there's some like mechanical aspects of it that are kind of like woo-woo stand-ins for if the world was, if we were all communicating better, the world would be easier because we would be, it would be as though we were gliding on golden pathways.

And that is sort of like one of the visual metaphors of the movie. But throughout the movie, there are at least a dozen characters, all of whom have like clear motivations, but odd pathways to those motivations. And the thing that I have been saying to people when they've asked me about the movie is, when I watch the, I've been rewatching all these Coppola movies, and when I watch the great Coppola movies and even the good ones, even like

The Outsiders, it's like he has the most perfectly timed watch in terms of the pace, editing, and feel of the movie. When you're watching the movie, you fall into the movie.

When you're watching The Godfather, or at least when I'm watching The Godfather, there is no movie. I'm in the world. Yeah. It is though it has

rebuilt my reality to be entrenched in whatever he's thinking. I just saw Apocalypse Now on 70 in a movie theater and I was like, I'm here. I'm in this world. He is the master, at least of the last 50 years, of being able to involve you, almost like cover you in a blanket and be like, we're here together now. Right. And this movie is the exact opposite. It's like the stopwatch that he had that controlled time and i say that because

controlling time is a key point of this movie is like five seconds behind so every scene just feels off it feels as though the performance style is off the rhythm of the editing is off like it's just yeah just doesn't do you know what i'm saying absolutely to me what stood out and this is informed a lot by interviews that he's given and also reading the sam watson book and the chapter is about one from the heart in particular which um he's fascinated with artifice and an artifice as a way to control and make a better whether it's movie set or or world at large but it's like he's running away from realism on that project and trying to imagine like you know like and here's all the things that technology can do for us in the different like new cinema or whatever he's talking about which does seem to change every day and this movie feels similarly like that and he's talked about

he he wants nothing like no realism right that it is because it is imagined and our minds have to be open to understand this new version of the world and how we communicate to each other and what it could be but it's it still feels incredibly artificial to me which is you know the way that everyone speaks to each other is clearly intentional and very declamatory and confusing um they don't feel like real people the every single visual decision as a result of it is baffling well some of it looks like it's shot on a cheaper set and some of it is just digitally created right and so i mean the movie that i thought of and i've seen other people say this while i was watching it was the phantom menace

where the first time you sat down to see the new George Lucas Star Wars prequels where there was so much digital photography digital imagery in inside the world of the movie where our brains were not quite at a place where like total green screen had been accepted it felt very similar to me and because of that the confusion of that visual environment the acting performances also felt very strange right everything just feels a little off and it's so disorienting when you're watching a movie so the point i was making before about like falling inside of his movies but while watching this movie i was like i'm watching a movie in fact i'm watching a bad movie and i'm watching pieces of movies and i'm watching all of the choices that you're making and i'm wondering like when

this came in and i'm wondering what led you guys to do this scene right now and i'm wondering like when this came in and i'm wondering what led you guys to do this scene right now and i'm wondering why you left that taken where someone just absolutely flubbed the line and it literally happens that literally happens and i'm like was that intentional like did did you guys just not notice like you don't actually know yeah um but it the the choices become very apparent which is the opposite of what you're saying where you're just you watch godfather godfather 2 you're just like conversation you're just in with those people yep um but what's interesting to me is like that kind of seems like part of Coppola's goal. Yeah, I think you're right.

And that is when I start to get... I mean, I'm not disappointed in myself because I don't think it works. At some point, the execution on this just didn't happen. But I do feel sad that he's swinging for something and a combo of it doesn't work and maybe I don't have enough imagination to go with him. I don't think it's that. I mean, I think it's okay for there to be failed experiments. Of course, his career is

defined by people declaring that his experiments are failures and then they are ultimately reclaimed and repraised and lifted up to become the pinnacle of the art form a year later, five years later, a hundred years later. It's possible that Megalopolis will be reclaimed as some sort of masterpiece. The thing that it does that I like is that it is an attempt to blend the past

of cinema with the future of cinema. The idea itself is Fritz Lang's Metropolis, the very clear kind of inspiration stand-in for this movie, or the films of Charlie Chaplin or Sergei Eisenstein, or, you know, the filmmakers who kind of like invented cinematic language and pushed it forward,

but did so using that artifice that you're describing. That's a big part of this movie. There are a lot of sets and physical objects that look almost like hyper real so as to be fake. And then there is all this digital imagery that is this like George Lucas, James Cameron style invention of reality. And putting those two things together,

I don't know that it has ever really been done like this. You know, the Wachowskis have done some things that kind of feel like this. I think of like even Edgar Wright movies sometimes the like hyper-reality of Edgar Wright movies feels like this a little bit. Those actors tend to get

better performance or those directors tend to get better performances out of their actors and that's kind of an issue with this movie is the unevenness of all of the performances.

But I like that he's like I'm going to use montage and rear projection and forced perspective shots and all of these things these like technical choices that he's making to pay homage to the history of movies and to try to do something new. That's fucking cool. But I have the same feeling as you, which is like, God, I would like to like this.

And am I like, have I lost my edge that I can't find a full way into liking this? But watching it, I just didn't like it. I just wasn't invested. I mean, as you said, there's nothing wrong with a failed experiment. And I think some of some of the history homage works. One of the casting choices, which is Adam Driver, works for me. He's very good. I mean, you watch this and you're just like, Adam Driver can do anything.

I agree. Because everyone else, and it's not their fault, but they're incredibly at sea. He is blessed with more interiority and opportunity to perform and to develop a character than I think a lot of the other people in the movie. I think a lot of the technical experiments and the

both some of the physical production and the digital imagery just aren't good enough. It doesn't look good. That happens. You try things, but imagery just like aren't good enough you know like it's like it just doesn't and that happens you know you try things but like it's not good enough they don't work well together the the narrative is both very clear which is like this guy is just gonna build a new city you know and it's gonna be great and he's gonna be right but like an hour and also forget that

you don't even know what really what we're on about. That's, I mean, that's true. And there are a lot of confusing backplots for him and for literally everyone else.

But you know where it's going, right? And then at the end, so the narrative is both completely muddled,

but also very simple. And the tone just, it seems like they picked a different tone every day on set. I think. Or did they pick it in the editing room? Well, let's talk a little bit about the performances because you mentioned that Adam Driver is giving

what I would describe as like a kind of classical Coppola performance, like a Coppola, the man at the center where he's sort of like he's reserved, but very proud. He has flaws, but ultimately his idea is the most, the idea with the most integrity and the way that sort of the old,

his understanding of the old tradition with the new way. That's a huge thing. The Godfather is all about like the old version of the mafia is dying. Michael can take it into the future. Michael knows the way. Like this movie is very much

in conversation with that. Apocalypse Now is very much about the old way of waging war and the new way of waging war. You know what I mean? Like this is the thing that he's always doing.

And his performance style is like Al Pacino, is like Marlon Brando, is like Robert Duvall in all those movies. Like it is that sort of like, it is quiet and stern, and there's like a bit of smarmy sarcasm in there, but like it's a Coppola protagonist part.

Right. But then you look at all the other actors in the movie. You look at Natalie Emanuel, who I would just say is a little in over her head in the movie, full of like very, very talented actors, and she is a perfectly fine actor, but being asked to convey like literally marcus aurelius quotes and to feel like a woman who through the

course of the film is meant to evolve the most and to become like this sort of central i mean madonna birth figure yeah i guess i don't i whether or not she's supposed to evolve is you know who do you, where do you place that responsibility on the actor or on the, on the, on the writer or the person? I turned to you about two hours, no, like an hour and a half in. And I was like, I just simply think that Francis Ford Coppola should not put women in his films. I like, I, yeah, with, there are a couple exceptions that we're going to go through, but it's, and you know, sometimes it's a casting thing, which we'll get to. I'm, you know, I've got one less godfather, you know, in me to advance it once again.

But also the characters with a couple exceptions either don't make sense or just not there in the classics. What I wrote down here are men are good leaders and smart and women should have babies and resent their children or fuck for power. That's like kind of the dichotomy between the male

and the female characters in this movie. There are some flawed men as well, but there are very few women who are like, there's anything good about them

unless they want power. Or excuse me, unless they want to have a baby. Right. That's, if you look through his filmography i know that's what that's i agree it's a little ungenerous really old-fashioned and they're also supposed to be objects of love and a different type of ideal and and utopia and

that the francis ford coppola character that is a stand-in in almost every movie he's ever made can never quite get there and do justice to his imagined idea of what a relationship should look like. But he believes in it, which there's sort of a romance in that. This movie is also dedicated to his late wife, Eleanor Coppola, and there is a dead wife character in this so which I don't think it's like one-to-one timing but it it looms over all of it so I think he would like to have different ideas about women how about and he would like to get to a different place in his life I mean most of his best movies are about men closing doors on women exactly but like all of the movies they just aren't really there and when they're there

they don't make a lot of sense sorry we'll talk about the abortion scene so I I just I just simply think he should make movies about men

that's okay sometimes do what you know there are there are men in the movie yeah I mentioned Giancarlo Esposito who I think is

fine in this movie Giancarlo Esposito has never been bad in a movie or TV show in his life. That's true. And he has presence. He does. I wish this character was a little bit more complex. I wish he was as well-written as Caesar is in terms of his like kind of storminess and being torn between two ideas. He's a little bit of a caricature of like a man who's like, the old way is the best way. And that's the only way I know how to communicate. But, you know, this is a sort of Roman history monkey. So because of that, you have to have these kind of figures of tradition that are fighting against the new way.

So I understand why he is the way he is. He's also a little bit like one of the bureaucrats in the Nolan Batman movies who I can never tell apart. And you guys bring all of your history. So you're like, oh, well, sure. Harvey Dent will then do X, Y, and Z. And I'm just like, I don't know who that is, but it seems like it's a guy who works in government who's not totally trustworthy.

And then all these sets look a little fake, you know, in that comic book-y way. This is not dissimilar from that. One of the interesting things that came out during the press before the release of the movie was that Coppola said that he wanted to bring in people from all points of view. He wanted to bring in people who are on the right and the left politically. He wants to bring in people from different walks of life. And he wanted to bring in the canceled and the uncanceled.

And so in this movie, you have varying degrees of canceled them, I guess you could say. Mm-hmm. Shia LaBeouf, Dustin Hoffman, Mm-hmm. Jon Voight. Mm-hmm.

You know, all three of them obviously hugely accomplished actors, but actors who have complicated public profiles. I will contend that there's only two actors who really are in

the right movie here. Okay. But it's not the movie that Coppola wanted to make. But I would argue that Shia LaBeouf and Aubrey Plaza are actually in the movie that this movie should have been. Which is to say that this is a really outsized and preposterous, over-dramatized, operatic satire of wealth, greed, consumption, all these other ideas. Yeah. And that everybody else in the movie is trying to be in a serious Francis Ford Coppola movie. I guess maybe John Voight occasionally seems to have gotten the tone.

But Shia LaBeouf, for example, plays the son of an extremely wealthy banker, John Voight. And he is a kind of a stand-in for a Trump-like figure, a kind of populist aspirant leader who is wealthy, who's trying to kind of take the power back from the man who's been granted power. I thought he was a junior. Or a Don Jr. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Could be a Don Jr. He screamed John Jr. to me, but sure, yes. Could be a Don Jr.

I mean, Donald Trump once upon a time was, to his father, like a somewhat similar figure. That is correct, yeah. So, now Shia LaBeouf, who's an actor I've always liked, despite whatever horrible things we've read about him in the world. I always thought he was very talented. I think brings like a kind of vivacity to the movie that is sometimes missing. Again, he just has sort of electricity. He does.

And it seems to be very difficult to live with day to day. But you put it on screen. Yes. And it seems to be very difficult to live with day to day, but you put it on screen. Yes. And it is really powerful. Respectfully, Aubrey Plaza is just in a Hunger Games movie. This is the one we'll disagree on. Cause I,

I enjoyed this and I enjoy her. So I, I liked what she was up to in this movie, but I, I do. I enjoy her as well. You're right. It's a little bit,

she's on like Kristen Wiig territory where I'm like, I can't quite take you seriously. And she's playing someone named Wow Platinum, which is an incredible name, and like, am I supposed to take her seriously is again, like a question that is like the essential question and also the

problem writ large with this movie. So that's why I was bringing up the kind of the Pacino or Martin Sheen sheen in apocalypse now acting style that adam driver is taking on because i know this because i read her say read her read her saying in an interview that she was told to be more like claudette colbert or barbara stanwick or a kind of liketalking, sensual, or maybe even more like Jean Harlow, like 20s and 30s, like blonde, sexy woman who gets what she wants because of the power of her appeal. And that tone, that approach, like no other actor is in a movie like that. She's still doing her deadpan Aubrey Plaza, like, whatever.

That's her essence, yeah. And it's not like the script does her any favors. I think you turned to me and made a comment about the portrayal of women and truth in this film. Shortly after, she's, like,

standing in an Atlanta courtyard that's supposed to be New York, that's supposed to be New Rome in like some gray get up that they ordered off of Amazon. And then like drops the coat to just be wearing her gray pajamas that I guess are supposed to be silver. I don't know. And it's like, I'll get you. And you're just like, what is what is going on? It's not her fault. You know, she's just a character helicoptered in from another movie.

Right. And it often feels like that when you're watching scenes that are not Adam Driver looking mournfully at a piece of paper or a digitally created megalon. This movie. Well, i'd like to speak very briefly about taylor swift sure um i i have great this always goes well for you so i'll do it carefully i have a strong feeling that bob his face right now even like through the tiny zoom camera like on the laptop it's just i'm just listening i warned a bobby i'm just listening as always i'm the first listener of the big picture that's what i think of my job as thank

you i'm here to listen well thanks for listening lend me your ears as they might say in ancient rome um i believe that there's commentary about taylor swift in this film and i believe that francis ford coppola believes that taylor swift is part of the problem i'm just putting that out there there's a there's a a woman who is right as a part of the bread and circuses section of this movie, this endless section, this 40-minute section of the movie, in which we go to a kind of created coliseum. Just to be clear, like Sean's not dropping some, you know, basic classics knowledge there.

There's just like a very large title card that's like bread and circuses. And then does it maybe say bread and circuses on the. Outside the building. Yeah. It's very possible. I don't know whether it does or whether I'm just imagining that. Madison Square Garden presents. Yeah.

But it's like Madison Square Garden as the Coliseum. AEG presents bread and circuses. This big party where there's sort of these wrestling competitions and there is a Cirque du Soleil style circus act and there is a blonde woman who plays a ukulele who is meant to be the sort of virginal centerpiece of the popular culture. She's one of the Vestal Virgins. Yeah. One of the Vestal Virgins. Her name is Vesta. Vesta. Vesta Sweetwater? Was that her name? I don't know. That's yeah quite a gnarly metaphor. To me, I mean, it's any pop star. It's any popular young woman who is meant to distract us from the way that pop power is getting one over on us.

That's the idea there. And that character is then used to show us in a kind of falsified deep fake style the way that the Caesar character may or may not be as worthy of his position in the world because of something that Clodio, the Shia LaBeouf character, does in the movie. Nevertheless, I find it very funny that, you know, the fake virginal Taylor Swift is, like, literally right in the middle section of the movie.

And they're like, people of the world do not be too distracted by these feckless things. Right. I'm just, I'm... Yeah, it's, I guess she's sort of... She's sort of styled like Taylor Swift. I mean... It's like love story era, like teenage girl. Yeah, but it's also like any little pop star that ever did, like, wore the purity ring or whatever.

Right. You know? It's like the Jonas Brothers as well. She is, she is styled in a very certain way. And she also shows up in the same scene as Francis Ford Coppola's granddaughter, Romy Mars, who is also a burgeoning pop star and actress. I tried to start a round of applause for that. No takers. Did you think she gave a good performance?

She asked questions in the style that the rest of the film was uh performed in right so you know she was on with what they were going for yeah yeah okay were there any other performances that you liked i mean katherine hunter just shows up about 90 minutes in as the like dutiful wife of giancarlo Esposito and it's just there to be just like yay families are good yeah um which seems like a real waste of her even though I agree that families are good um it's a bold take I like mine um but I was glad to see her I don't think she was bad how about that what about Talia Shire oh yeah she's great but all she glad to see her I don't think she was bad how about that what about Talia Shire oh yeah

she's great but all she gets to do is like run around looking mad resenting her son yeah and all of his success what do you make of Megalon

what would you do with it so what's up so here is one thing that I wanted to ask for a movie that really drops basically all of its plot lines and questions,

I don't have that much rewatchable style like nitpicking to do for you because like the threads aren't that long. But at one point, Adam Driver does have a Megalon eye. And then it goes away. I believe what we're meant to believe there is that, well, there's one of the most effective moments in the movie. And this is a deep spoiler for anybody who doesn't want the film spoiled for them at this point.

Spoiler warning. There's an assassination attempt on his life by a 12-year-old boy. Oh, yeah. A boy shoots him in the eye. That was upsetting. And his eye is wounded. And I believe he uses the Megalon to heal his eye and heal his face. Right.

So it's just like, it's sort of a bandage situation. Yes. But then eventually it does come back. Yeah. And so then he's fully healed. I didn't know whether he was supposed to become one with Megalon and that we would all become, like we would live in a world of Megalon. That sounds like a Transformers movie to me the other thing I have to say about the eventual Megalopolis that is built is that it basically is that meme of like society if like I could you know take a

right on red yeah and you know it's like that and I'm just oh, like literally this is the graphic design that was imported into the film. So that is tough. I mean, I'm too online. That's my fault. But that is kind of what happens at the end of the movie. But Megalon seems nice. You would use it. You think it's like they should have like a skincare line or so now that's just

reminding me of the most recent industry which is but you know a couple episodes old now but great stuff great job mickey and conrad um so is it a natural substance like how do we discover megalon i i missed that in the spinning newspapers i think it is explained but i can't quite remember exactly specifically how are we taking resources away from the Earth or from other people in order to make Megalon? Can't say.

Well, that's important. Okay. Well, okay. I don't have the answer. So that's tough. So I guess that's one question that I'm asking after Megalopolis, which is the point

that Dr. Ford Coppola told me. There's one other important question, which is a question about a question. There's a question that is asked at a press conference in a sequence in this movie. And that question is asked by a real-life person at our screening. It's actually not. It's lip-synced by a real-life person at our screening

while the audio track plays. But I was still... I was glad that we got to be a part of that immersive what-have-you. One of the ways in which this movie is an attempt to be kind of a step forward in the cinema, a new way of seeing a movie is that at the, I guess the end of the second act, this kind of conclusive moment, the screen goes all black and a man at our screening reached behind the screen and grabbed a microphone, a microphone stand, and walked over to the left side of the screen. And then the audio began again, and we saw Adam Driver's face on the big screen. And as you said, he lip-synced this question.

He did not ask it, so I asked him, then why did he take out a microphone? But he did. Well, because you were supposed to... At a press conference, does a man have a microphone? You just say the question. The person who's talking has the microphone. That's a great, I mean, that's a good point.

So what was the point of that? I'm just production managing the immersive experience here. To add to the feeling in the room, which I do think we should talk about before we move on. You're right. He was also scribbling something like he was taking notes. Right. He's a reporter dutifully making notes and not recording the press conference, which is, you know. Well, this is the future, you know, and Megalon exists, but also they don't have cell phones, right?

No cell phones. Were there any audio recorders in this future? I don't remember seeing any. So, you know. Well, we're back to longhand stuff. I thought that that was a cool idea that could have been explored more deeply that's how i feel the question itself the immersive aspect sure i actually would have been interested in something with a little bit more heft and when

it was over i was like that's it yeah the problem is that like it also became so memed so quickly it was like that was the detail that came out of that industry screening that was used to be like this thing is so out there there's a person talking to the screen which like frankly that is not among the 45 most out there things um no but so we were all like waiting for it and everyone in the room got out their phones to be like oh it's happening it's here which let me may i say something that's fine to get your phone out if you're there for this greeting pretty immersive experience yeah like what you know i saw a lot of you know finger wagging i'm like oh the cinema experience is like totally ruined we can never go back can you believe all of these people showed up

to an event screening of what is basically a meme movie at this point and at the big moment wanted to record it to be able to have their bit online yes i can that's that's what we're that's where we are now just want to make sure i've got this clear you think that all movie attendees at any screening ever should bring their cell phones and film the entire movie on those phones and then take that audio and video document and put it on Kazaa for all people to download as soon as they've seen the film. Yes, absolutely. Okay, thanks. That's on the record for the FBI.

Yeah. I don't know. The energy in the room is important. So I would say roughly, and Jack, I wonder if this was true for you as well. I would say roughly 35 minutes into the movie everyone in our screening accepted the kind of movie that they were in. We all went in anticipating hopefully something exciting. We knew it could go the other way

because there had been a lot of negative reviews but chuckles started. People started openly laughing. Yeah. Some things that maybe were meant to be laugh lines and other things that were not at all. And the absurdity of the movie began to overtake itself i've seen some people compare this reaction to like going to see a screening of the room that was that was what i said to you the minute it closed um before i sat down for the movie somebody had told me um that showgirls

was a comp that they had made recently that Showgirls is this kind of interesting fusion of like incredible vision and this sort of outsized acting style, but also like a terrible script and silly plotting and some pretty awkward line delivery where you're sort of like wowed by something, but laughing at it too and laughing at it's like kind of banality and failure,

but also like impressed by some of its artistry. I don't know that this is like i don't think it's a so bad it's good kind of a proposition but you and i also don't buy into that for the most part in the same way yeah um i have done like screenings of the room at midnight and stuff and had fun yeah that one i find to be in a very unique place relative to some of the other stuff that people compare it to but i i think there is a there's a school of movie viewer and culture uh celebrant that just that does actually take real joy in that and we don't really watch movies that way right i i did feel and it and it might be that the q a energy also turned this up i agree but it felt like a lot of people came to participate in like a meme as much as a great

you know cinematic master work and then i don't think that's so bad i don't say that i don't say that because the energy was good in the room. It just was a little like, we're laughing a lot now at a movie that is about how our society is really, really in a bad place. And the laughter grew

as it went on and at the end, there was like cheering and a couple like fake standing ovations and the sort of thing where, on the one hand, that's cool

that it was like a bunch of young people wanted to go sit through like a three hour weird experience by an 85 year old. Master in decline? Sure. That's a good diplomatic way of putting it. I see no shame in that.

I don't see it as shame. It's just like that does flavor how you receive the movie in real time. Were people laughing in your screening, Jack? They were. I think it took a little bit longer in our screening. I would say after the interactive experience, once we're fully into the third act,

it was like wheels were up. And I will say that I go to a lot of rep screenings. Sometimes you'll see something older and you'll have somebody in the audience who will be laughing and that will really get under my skin. I, for the record, was laughing. Yeah. It's so absurd and the wheels kind of came off. It didn't feel inappropriate is the thing about the laughing.

It wasn't like, how dare you laugh at this? Yeah, no, no, no, no. Maybe this is kind of instantaneously going into a different level of acceptance, celebration, appreciation. You know, we had a lot of very kind listeners of the show recognize us at this

screening. Which is very sweet. And to a person, they were like, can't wait for that podcast. And I was like, you and I are both just like the emoji of all the teeth. It's like,

yeah, this is, it's a, what? Yeah. This is a... It's a movie that doesn't work. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started.

It's not the first time that Francis Ford Coppola has made a movie that doesn't work. Look at you. King Segway. Thank you. My back really hurts, so I need a pillow before we do the next part of this. Let's get you a pillow. Keep the mic rolling. This is fine. Bring people in. But Jack, will you throw me a pillow? Wow, a real time pillow throw?

Okay, this is movie magic as well. This is what it was like on the side of this but it's like no i was gonna say this is like avant-garde podcasting the way that adam driver looks straight at the crowd oh that feels good okay you good i think so now i have to be like further from the mic jack am i still okay this is great this is this is what francis for coppola imagined i I mean, you know, bring people behind. Walking is hard.

It's not easy. Okay. I'm good. You got it? Yeah, let's go. This is actually technically not your last podcast before you go. So I need to,

if we're going to have an issue, we should just stop down. No, no, it's fine. It's just like, I was trying to have good posture, but I don't have any core muscles now.

They're pretty compromised. I see. So, you know, but I don't have any core muscles now. They're pretty compromised. I see. So, you know, the strain goes other places. But now I've got this pillow. First 10 pods after you come back are just all about rebuilding your core. So it'll just be exercise pods, no table, me and you on a mat on the floor. I honestly think that's like one of the nicest things I could ever do for you is to rebuild your core.

What do you mean? Like after Knox, I did, if anyone's looking for a program, I use, I subscribe to this thing called Bar 3, no free ads, but they're great. And, you know, the whole process is about like rebuilding your core after a baby, like I ever had one,

but I did find them very helpful. And then I made Zach do it also, because I was like, no, this is going to be good for your back as well. Because none of us are using our cores. Right, Bobby? Am I right? Yes, that it also. Because I was like, no, this is going to be good for your back as well. Because none of us are using our cores. Right, Bobby? Am I right? Yes, that's correct.

We're all just sitting. We're all just hunched over. We're all in pain all the time. Not me. I'm consuming the great works of cinema. Yeah, but you're not using your core. So if we spent time working on your core strength, I think you would be a happier and healthier person.

My core strength is right here. Sean, how do you feel about engaging the posterior chain in your day-to-day life? What do you think? What does that bring out within you? What does that I care about, this Texas Chainsaw Massacre, baby? Let's go. I once actually tried to talk to Chris about that because he's doing his mountain man version of my postnatal thing.

Yeah. And he was like, I was speaking a different language. God bless him. And then he's like, I was speaking a different language. God bless him, you know? And then he's like, I almost blew out my quad. And I was like, I know that's because you're not engaging

your posterior chain. Yeah, he keeps just going full kettlebell swings, just like not even into it. He's just going for it. Yeah. Anyway. You feel ready to talk about

Francis Ford Coppola? Literally, physically supported. Not just emotionally. Yes. All right, let's talk about Coppola Hall of Fame now you might be

saying to yourself this is a hard endeavor this is one of the great filmmakers ever you might also be saying to yourself

this is really easy he doesn't actually have 10 great movies I think both things are true I think this is a unique case where if you get really

entrenched in his career and think about what each movie means to the next movie and the previous movie, the 10 comes together pretty quickly. Yes. But I always like to talk about kind of what we're doing here. We did talk a lot about Coppola's kind of background and career on that episode where we talked about Wasson's book, which I think was back in February, I want to say. I think it was the driveway dolls episode where we talked about the book at length. So if people want to go listen to that they can talk about

sort of more about like how he got to where he got to and what not. But it was interesting to kind of think about what his movies are what they represent like what are the signature ideas because you pointed out that a lot of his movie protagonists are stand-ins for him. And I think that that's

very true but i also think the thing that is a kind of a core premise of megalopolis is also true which is that he's constantly trying to break the form of movies and think about a new form you know he's trying to think about how to fit theater into movies he's trying to think about how to fit books and non-fiction into movies you know the idea of adapting of adapting Joseph Conrad but modernizing it. The idea of taking this like pulpy, trashy kind of stuff, very genre stuff,

and putting this veneer of artistry behind it. I've always found super interesting. Like I just rewatched Bram Stoker's Dracula last night and I'm like, wow, he really, man, he took this material seriously. Like so seriously, it's absurd. You know, The Godfather, that's like an airport novel. You know, it's's a beach novel and he made it into something grand and poetic and and deep and so i i i love his project you know like i think it's one of the

coolest projects totally and that's part of like my sadness and reluctance to be like, I didn't get Megalopolis because I'm so on board with the Coppola ambition and the let's try stuff and let's be weird and wild and let's take gambles, you know, which he does. And sometimes it's Apocalypse Now and sometimes it's One from the Heart or Megalopolis, you know, but like we have examples of both and he's very open about the filmmaking process and very open about all the struggles and disagreements and everything he is but he is um extremely like well educated and often esoteric but also just willing to share with everybody loquacious yeah and i yeah. Yeah, and I really, like, I'm, that's, that's, I mean, he's our, he's everybody's guy. But, like, come on.

I really, really, I'm rooting for him. He's a fun avatar for the possibilities of movies. And his career, when you look at it and you go through the work, you can see, like, a really clear traditional rise that is mirrored by a lot of his contemporaries or the people who are right behind him in the 70s. You know, certainly like his friends like Scorsese and De Palma and Spielberg and that whole cohort. But then also, you know, anybody who kind of came up through the 80s or the 90s where it's like you make a movie independently and then you get a little bit of a bigger movie. And then you take a studio job and oops, that was a bad idea. And then you take on a movie that's more personal to you and that unlocks you for you know he has this like this arc that is a cliche and he helped set the cliche for that arc but then after a certain point after the 70s he is like i'm not as worried about

maintaining the safety and sanctity of my career the way that other people will be. He seems like less consumed by the in real time legacy and more concerned by the future legacy. Yeah. Which I think is another thing that like really separates him, even from someone like Spielberg, who basically doesn't make bad movies and is always making an interesting movie, even if it's not successful. But you can feel him in real time, like having this kind of commercial sensibility of like i want this movie to work right now right watching some of these coppola movies again i can feel him being like i don't fucking whatever this is what i want to do this is what i think is the right idea for this time even if people don't get it right now which honestly i don't have that bone in my body that's

so fucking brave to do that over and over and over again and to constantly put his own money and his own like sense of success and sense of self into every project. And even when he's like, oh, I fucked up. I'm super in debt. I got to take on this like John Grisham novel. Yeah. Still brings like a tremendous level of artistry to those movies. So I just think the actual like parabola of his career

is maybe the most interesting of all of his contemporaries. And his own documentation of it. Again, as part of like when I called Mecalobolis like fascinating performance art that I guess that sounds like a diss or whatever. But he is being a filmmaker and an artist like in public in real time and we have access to his successes and his failures and his money problems and his reasoning in a way that for whatever reason whether it's like legacy building or just being a different type of person who doesn't want to talk as much about it yeah as he seems to well and I love it I'm I it's so compelling and interesting. And I don't always like process stories, but the process of being Francis Ford Coppola

and building this weird, wild career is... I mean, it's a movie in itself. It is. It's never boring. You know, I have a little bit of... Perhaps I'm just projecting or speculating, but he's from New York. There's a little bit of, perhaps I'm just projecting or speculating, but, you know, he's from New York. There's a certain kind of New York guy from what I, you know, jokingly call like the white ethnics of New York, like the Irish and the Italians and the Polish. And there's like a certain kind of a second generation, third generation person who is like an oversharer. They're often great storytellers.

Yeah. And they often, and I do this in my personal life sometimes, where you like say something that you know you like shouldn't say in mixed company, almost like provoke a reaction. And also to seem like a little dangerous,

a little like, oh, he'll just say anything. And oftentimes when I hear him talking, and he did this with this conversation about this Haitian film that he backed and how much he loves the Haitian people after a crack about eating cats and dogs that Spike remade at the Q&A

and then he just goes off on this weird jag about how he had a whole subplot about how much he admires the Haitian people and they were a critical part of New Rome but then he took it out and it's like, Francis, you don't have to say all that. You know what I mean? But I see him as like very similar to a lot of people in my family, a lot of people I grew up around, where he's super smart, but he's also super regular.

He's super kind of like, he's like a down-to-earth, middle-class guy who also grew up in an artist family and doesn't know how to stop talking. Right. And so he has given us all this information about his career. There's so many people who are his contemporaries who are just like mysterious artists who are like, you'll never understand totally how I do what I do. And how dare you ask? Right. He's more in a tradition of like Orson Welles. Like if you put a microphone in front of him, he's like, I got some stories to tell you.

But an optimist. That's the other thing that is really. And that's like maybe, you know, let's have some introspection. Maybe a reason that Megalopolis like doesn't totally land for me at least, because it is, it's not cynical. At all. He is still out here like believing in the future and the possibility, especially if you do it his way and let him just kind of use the megalon to sprinkle wherever but still yeah there is a fundamental belief in good in him despite some of the movies he's made you don't share that i think i'm more cynical than him probably i am as well so so are you i am yeah but he's also mad at everybody yeah well he got fucked he got fucked out of 20 years of being able to make

movies i mean coppola did too in some ways, although he often did the fucking. Nobody did more self-fucking than Francis Ford Coppola. Which he's also honestly pretty upfront about and acknowledges. He does. And it's like, well, yeah, I messed that up. So most other people would be pointing blame every which way. Of course, he does plenty of that. Yeah, I think he's done a very good job throughout his career of accepting what he screwed up

and also projecting onto the people who screwed him over. Yeah. He's just very open. So it's made for a great career. Let's go through his movies. Okay. I have included here.

Yes. The 20 plus features that he directed. I think 24 or 25. Yeah. And also the four films that he wrote. Okay. And I think that the four films that he wrote should be eligible

at least for this conversation. Okay. In part because he has kind of this awkward filmography where he's got a handful of indisputable all-time movies that will never go away as long as there are movies. Like one of, if not the greatest run in American cinema? I was hoping we would discuss that. But we'll get to it very shortly. Okay. Let's start at the beginning of his career.

Yeah. He starts out, well, he starts out making nudie cuties, basically like softcore porn. Sure. Which is sort of like illicitly distributed in the late 50s, early 60s, and cuts his teeth on that.

And that sort of gets him on the radar of like independent movies. And he's kind of working his way up through the system. Somebody who thought he was going to work in theater, whose father was a musician and he later worked with on his movies. And he gets into the Corman system and he makes Dementia 13, which is kind of like a schlocky but incredibly creative thriller horror movie. I liked it. I'd never seen it. I watched it.

I was like, oh, this is good. It's pretty good. This is better than I expected it to be for like the Roger Corman produced $3 like starter film. It's like a lean 80 minute movie. And it's a movie that,

you know, I think I watched it for the first time maybe three or four years ago in COVID. There's a wonderful Blu-ray of it. I'm just going to

put that out there. Leave me alone. I was like, this movie might be in the hall of fame because it are you i i know you love to put the first one in the hall of fame we can yellow it for sure i genuinely i really liked it um um i will say his next movie which comes a few years later which is called you're a big boy now which is a comedy is one of his very few movies that i really don't like okay and i understand why it hit,

why it made an impression. It is a very contemporary for that time sort of a film. It's like a sort of antic movie, Geraldine Page, Rip Torn, Peter Kastner, about a 19-year-old who's horny and is trying to get laid and trying to move through the world quickly. It's kind of like smart guy Porky's in some ways.

That's a good way of putting it. And it feels like very hip and it feels like kind of Austin Powers-y, but it's in black and white. Yeah. But I found it like not very fun to watch. I did not respond to it. Okay. So then I would say you're a big boy now as Red. Okay.

1968 Finian's Rainbow. This is not respond to it. Okay. So then I would say you're a big win. I was red. Okay. 1968 Finian's Rainbow. This is the big studio job that he got. Now during this period, I'll say, he is getting a reputation as a writer. He has written

Is Paris Burning? in 1966 for, I believe, René Clement. And he co-wrote that with Gore Vidal, Jean Orange,

Pierre Bost, and Claude Bruley. And then in 66, he also co-writes This Property is Condemned, which is a Redford movie. Redford and Natalie Wood, I believe,

were the stars of that movie. And he's, like, getting a reputation as a writer. So he's trying to, like, have this Hollywood screenwriting career while also getting

his own stuff off the ground. In this period, he decides to leverage the success of that by making the Finian's Rainbow adaptation, which is like an old school MGM musical starring Fred Astaire. Yeah. That like stinks. It's so bad.

Yeah. But I, so I had never seen it, watched it, was like, how do I know these songs? Which is really, really, like, they started doing How Are Things in Glockamora. And I was like, oh, of course. Like, what, when did this come into my consciousness? And how can I replace it with something useful? Anyway, really bad.

Petula Clark is also big in our household right now. Oh, interesting. Well, downtown, the concept of downtown and large buildings is very powerful. Okay. To Knox. So sometimes, you know, a song about downtown also speaks to him. I like that. I like what you're giving him.

It's a show that on paper, you know, it's a 40s production. Yeah, well, the musical also is. It's your kind of thing. I just mean. I mean, but it's also insane. I mean like a glossy musical. Yes. Sure.

But it comes at this fascinating time where you know it's not an MGM movie it's a Warner's movie but it comes at this time where like the big expensive

musical Broadway adaptation on the big screen is dying and is this sort of emblem of the end of the old Hollywood. Yeah. And we're about to go

to the new Hollywood. We're about to get away from movies like this. And even here, it's like half shot on location and half Francis Ford Coppola insisting on soundstages, which like could be a nod to the classic 40s and 50s. But also everyone just looks. Well, I guess maybe Fred Astaire was insisting on soundstages, but Coppola also likes... I don't know.

It's also... It's a mess. It's hard to make movies about Irish people. This is one of my takes. Yeah. That movie bombs out. He's got to reset. Two things happen in this period.

One, he gets the gig of writing the screenplay for Patton. Yeah. That works out. Which is a bio doc. Sure screenplay for Patton. Yeah, that works out. Which is a bio doc about General Patton. Yeah. That goes on to become a very successful movie and that Francis Ford Coppola goes on to win the screenplay for. Or the best screenplay Oscar for. And at the same time, he mounts The Rain People, which is sort of his like return to a sort of independent cinema. It's a Warner's distributed movie, but very small, contained movie, three-hander,

that is more in the mode of the new Hollywood. It's a movie about a young woman who is pregnant and knows that she's not with the right person and sort of in a fit breaks out

and leaves her house, comes upon an impossibly young James Caan. James Caan, as handsome as he'll ever be, as a football player who's had a kind of brain damage. And they sort of connect and sort of don't connect. And they go on this sort of road trip together. And it's interesting that a lot of the filmmakers

from this era all have their sensitive woman's picture. Right. But just one? You know, Scorsese has Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the most odd movie in the arc of his career. Yeah, Women's Live, for sure. They're plugged in.

They're paying attention. Burn those bras, no doubt. I guess this works out okay for her. No, not really. In this movie? Oh, there's some gnarly stuff. No, some gnarly stuff happens, but it's really, it's mostly to Jimmy Conn. Yes.

That's sad. I think it's a pretty good movie. I liked it. Yeah. I think it's, it has, I felt its age a bit more than some of the movies that are considered classics from this period. But it's definitely a huge step i think we could give it like a respectful yellow but like the kind of more of like an orange because it's not gonna go in but we respect it i was wondering about that whether or not this one would make it in okay i like your i like your

respectful yellow well we'll do that now i feel the patent should be in what shade of oh sure yeah i'm good with that that's he won the os Yeah, that makes sense. It basically bumps his quote up so much that he becomes a significant player in Hollywood because of writing that screenplay. Okay, so that's green. And then Rain People is like, what is a respectful yellow? What shade of yellow to you? Sunbeam yellow. Okay. Oh, marigold.

Marigold. Yeah, there you go. That's lovely, Bobby. As though we're sprung from Finian's Okay. Oh, marigold. Marigold. Yeah, there you go. That's lovely, Bobby. As though we're sprung from Finian's rainbow. Right, correct. A marigold yellow for his next movie. So we've got our first green in Patton. Right.

Which I think you gotta do. Yeah. He doesn't really take on a whole lot of for hire writing after this anyway. I'm good with that. And then you get to the 70s. Yeah. And you get to this like... So 1972, The Godfather. 1974, good with that. And then you get to the 70s. Yeah. And you get to this, like. So, 1972, The Godfather.

1974, The Conversation. 1974, The Godfather Part 2. 1979, Apocalypse Now. I mean, Bobby's already greened these, which is correct. Yeah. Do you want to put up a fight on any of them? Is there anything you want to? No.

Are you kidding? Yeah. I was actually. So when we do these, you mostly try to rewatch the things that you haven't seen or that aren't familiar. But like as a treat, I gave myself like, I was like, I'll just watch part of Godfather. Like watched all of it. Watched all of Godfather 2. You know, just like.

These are the only two movies that I didn't revisit. Well, why would you? You've seen them so many times. As have I. But at some point, it's just like, you know, I can get Zach to come sit with me for 30 minutes. Then I had a long drive, and so I put on, I think I did Godfather 2 rewatchables this time. Yeah.

Which is, I like it. Every Christmas you guys get together and do like a really deranged four-hour boys movie podcast. And I wanted to know what this year's would be. I don't know. You got to ask Bill Simmons. And then I was also reminded that Bill is with me that um his contention is that K doesn't make sense as a character my contention is that Diane Keaton is miscast as K um you're both wrong okay

I mean I love Diane Keaton she's one of the pillars of American cinema she's one of the most critical characters in that story and she is important in the character but then Diane Keaton is just like standing there being like what she's the eyes and ears of the movie all the the cosa nostra is a mysterious to us i mean unless this shiksa woman comes in and is just like yeah what are you guys doing here what is all this fucking weird tradition because that's how most people would feel if they were confronted i i have thought about this long and hard because bill and i have thought about this many times over the years. But I believe that Kay is an essential movie character.

I think that Keaton's plays her with too much naivete. Perhaps you're right. Don't agree. Perhaps you're right. Or daffiness, which some of it is just like I also can't disconnect it from the Diane Keaton that I know coming forward. But there is just something I also can't disconnect it from like you know the Diane Keaton that I know coming forward but there is just something that is like this must all end listen and the time I you know I the scene in the kitchen when she says bye to her kids and then Pacino shows up and the door just closes on her is like the most painful thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah. But I, I don't know.

Bill's right. She just like leaves all the children in the bus and is like, sure, no problem. That part is funny. That's not ideal. I would, if my child were on that bus, I would not be excited about that. Like you haven't thought about what, where this guy has been in Italy once. That's how enchanting Michael Corleone is. I mean, Pacino is unbelievable in those movies.

He's beautiful. He's so beautiful. And like, I mean, it is one of the great performances of all time, but he's so young and so powerful. And so I understand that, but it's like, she's not that dumb. She's got to ask like one or two questions, you know? So you can't pretend like you didn't know everything. I mean,

I'm not going to debate the K thing all over again with you. You know, I should do like a minute by minute Godfather podcast and where you sort every decision that's made into good decision and bad decision. Okay. What if we just did the K files where we had like a telestrator with every scene featuring K? And we're just like, why this? Why this? Why this?

Do you think people would enjoy that? Yeah. No, they wouldn't enjoy it. Because K is good. And she's needed. She's needed. It's just, I think someone else could give the performance some more shade. Okay.

That's all. Do you think Aubrey Plaza could do it? No. Again, historically speaking, performance some more shade okay that's all do you think aubrey plaza could do it no again i again historically speaking i don't really love his casting choices when it comes to women understood uh 1974 is the commerce the godfather is going in yeah the godfather part two is going in yeah 1974 is the conversation rules this is a remarkable movie obviously all four of these movies are certified classic in the movie canon. Conversation, one of the more prescient movies ever made about

surveillance culture and who's listening and what it means to spend time listening and watching other people doing things that you're not supposed to be watching. And also making assumptions based on what you see and hear and thinking you know what's right and what's not right. That's the thing that I take away from that movie when I watched it again. It's all about the surveillance expert named Harry Call played by Gene Hackman. One of his best performances, maybe his best performance. And he is a person who is perhaps the world's greatest bugger who spends most of the movie observing a conversation between a man and a woman who are clearly in some sort of illicit affair and thinking that they are the target of something come to find out that's

not totally the case and his delusions and paranoia and anxiety but also concern for the characters is fascinating because i feel like every day on every podcast that we make here at the ringer we watch something game sure interview on a talk show movie and we're like here's what that's about i know exactly what that's about and we don't know fucking anything and that movie is a great reminder that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about you know what i mean just like reduce your surety around all things in the world because it's much bigger than just like oh wow he knew that like the surveillance state in the nsa would be listening to us it is that but it is something much bigger

than that, too. So I find that he's really good at cool movies about the paranoid 70s. That's great that he did that, but most of his movies have something much, much deeper going on underneath the surface. That's my speech on the conversation. Yeah, but it is also like the fact that this comes out in 74, in the middle of the paranoid 70s, it's like thumbs so, fingers so directly on the pulse.

And doesn't he get to make the, isn't the conversation like what he barters with? He's like, I'll do part two, Godfather part two at this and also like an opera. Yes, Paramount, yeah. What a legend. I mean, it's fascinating that that's the kind of thing that he wanted to make

and I feel like there's this push pull and we'll feel this as we get into the 80s on what he wants to be doing and what he feels he has to do as a filmmaker

The Godfather 2 comes out it's as much of a success as the first Godfather widely acclaimed Academy Awards no one's ever been as high

on the mountaintop of movies as Coppola is after the kind of twin killings of these two movies. Right. And so he sets out, his next project is to make Apocalypse Now. Much of the Wasson book is about this kind of twinned feeling between the Apocalypse Now production and Megalopolis, it being this vast undertaking, it being like a tremendously bungled production you know like speaking of that surety and that sense of like

I can do it no one else can do it which he brings to every production too he's just in way over his head he almost kills himself in the process he almost kills Martin Sheen

I was gonna say you know like it's a really it's one of the truly most traumatic movie productions in history and then on the other side of it is a breathtaking movie

a movie that is unlike any other movie you know I find The Godfather the most fun movie of his to breathtaking movie, a movie that is unlike any other movie. You know, I find The Godfather the most fun movie of his to watch. It's the movie that I kind of like. Yeah. I feel like a kind of like pop culture energy when I'm watching it. But Apocalypse Now, which I just saw at the Egyptian on 70 recently, that is like church.

That is like going to a spiritual place that's very deep. And it's also everything that he is doing in terms of filmmaking techniques, innovation, the sound in particular, like, they are stuck in the jungle for a very long time

and things are going incredibly wrong and he doesn't know if he or his cast are going to survive, let alone be able to produce this thing in his head

that is also changing, you know, on set. Like he is doing a lot of, well, maybe it's this. He's finding the movie in real time in a lot of different ways, but it does come together. Amazingly so. And it again, once again, there's like a lot of bad press in the lead up to the movie. And then it premieres at Cannes and it's widely acclaimed.

And it does well. And it's probably even bigger than people would have thought at the time of its release now. Its sort of legacy is huge now but that's automatic. So that leaves us

with five movies. Okay. We've got a long way to go here but not as many sure things I would say through the next roughly 40 some odd years.

So three years go by between Apocalypse Now and his next movie which is One from the Heart which you've referenced a couple times. Right. This movie's maybe back

on some people's radars because he has recut this movie recently. It was back in theaters last year. It's now available on Blu-ray called One from the Heart Reprise. This is a kind of,

kind of a shoebox musical. It's a movie starring Frederick Forrest and Terry Garr, about a couple in Nevada who are trying to make it work and can't make it work and a couple in las vegas yes in las vegas recreated painstakingly to his exact specifications all on sound stages with with beautiful neon lights and like in a really intentional as you you said, shoebox, like, pristine design. This movie, which he poured a ton of money into,

you should say while this is all happening, he's got American Zoetrope, which is his production company, which remains today. Right. And has gone through various stages of success and failure. At this time, he's got several other movies from several other great filmmakers that he's producing or not producing, for lack of a better phrase. And he's also trying to get

this movie off the ground. He's got Vittorio Storaro, the incredible Italian cinematographer, shooting it. And, you know, it bombs hard. It bombs basically as hard as a movie can bomb. And the financing, to me, because I've seen hearts of darkness and the and the apocalypse now experience has been so well chronicled like this part of the sam watson book was by far the most stressful because they lose money 40 different ways 40 different times um and then he's always just like no we need to import this case of wine from wherever you know and gene ke's always just like, no, we need to import this case of wine from wherever. You know, and Gene Kelly is just like around teaching dance numbers to no one

and you're just like, what? It's really, really chaotic. And then people don't, it does not perform. It cost $26 million to make. I think it was originally intended to be a $10 million movie. So it went almost three times over budget and made $600,000. Yeah.

From the guy who had previously brought you Godfather, The Conversation, Godfather Part 2, and Apocalypse Now. It's a fascinating fall. It's one of the most fascinating falls in movie history. He takes it very hard. He takes a huge financial hit on this. The movie itself, I have some appreciation for. Yeah. I saw it one time

on cable when I was a kid and didn't get it at all. And I will say being in love and being in a relationship makes you understand this movie more.

I feel like he's writing from a very honest and strange place in this movie about this couple who are trying to figure out how to be together and when

they can't figure it out like what happens to them some of it just it's very similar to megalopolis though in that it's like he tried something that can't work cinematically with the way that some of the musical numbers are staged and the acting style at times which is like sometimes between frederick force and terry guard it's very naturalistic. Right. And sometimes it's very, we're doing either melodrama or we're really underplaying it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're making you aware that we are performing. Exactly.

The artifice that you were describing before. The Tom Waits soundtrack is so amazing. The songs are good. And it does look beautiful, especially, you know, that this is why when I like I like my eyes do not understand Megalopolis. I'm like, is it me or is it Megalopolis? Because I don't think that this was appreciated as something beautiful to look at. So when I was in Philly for the Rewatchables live tour, I had a down night and I went to go see Reprise in a movie theater.

And it was a good experience. One, the new cut has shaved off about 15 minutes from the original. Right. Which I think is a very good choice because the movies really kind of languid

the original cut. And the new one is pretty tight. It's like one hour and 33 minutes or something. And there's a moment when Nastassja Kinski and Frederick Forrest are outside

looking out into the stars sitting in a car. Right. It's like, just beautiful. Also, he was like, I don't know if he was

having an affair with Nastassja Kinski, but there is... He's in love with her and you can see her when you're watching the movie. Yeah, and it's like very complicated and...

Yes. He's had his fair share of affairs. Yeah. Very stressful part of the book I don't know I think this probably won't go in

but I think it should be at least the yellow because this is a bold move it is and it's also a useful reference point for certainly

for Megalopolis and many other things that happen most people haven't seen this movie I would encourage people to check it out the next two we should do together.

Okay. The next two come out in the same year. Yeah. They're in some ways the same movie. Yes. They're both adaptations of S.E. Hinton novels. Yes. They both feature Matt Dillon and Diane Lane.

They do. And yet stylistically, they're completely opposites. Talking about The Outsiders and Rumblefish. Mm-hmm. Two great movies about teenage rebellion, the illusion of love. Right. Danger. Gangs.

Yeah. Yeah. Brotherhood. The ideas of brotherhood. Reassurance. Yeah. Having cool jackets and wearing t-shirts with the sleeves rolled up. It is really confusing now.

Because I feel like Jack and Bobby, you guys didn't have to read any S.E. Hinton in elementary school. Oh, you did. Did you read The Outsiders? Yeah, The Outsiders, I think in sixth grade. Why are we reading, like why are like greasers such a foundational part of an American education? Well, they represent something interesting about rejecting norms. That's true, but it's like I vividly remember

watching The Outsiders and then there are class elements to it too as well, but. I mean, The Outsiders has this like legendary cast of young actors who went on to become big stars. You know, obviously Tom Cruise is in this movie,

Ralph Macchio, Rob Lowe, Matt Dillon, Patrick Swayze. I'm just doing this off the top of my head. I know there's a bunch more. I have Patrick Swayze in this movie. And then Rumblefish is this sort of like,

like the art house companion in a way. Shot in black and white. Shot with this very unusual perspective on the characters. It doesn't look like really many other movies. It looks more like a German expressionist movie than it does like a teen gang movie. But it still manages to communicate all of the themes and emotions and the teenness of it. It just looks very beautiful, which is why I vote Rumblefish.

So that's the thing is, could they both go in? Well, do we want to cheat and do a slash? I don't think they can be one. Why not? It's ours. When we make top fives, we do it all the time. Do you think we have enough to get to ten especially if we do that

I'm not sure if we do it's debatable there's a couple that I will strong arm but there's not a lot we have five right now we have five but with maybe

one from the heart Bob one from the heart should be yellow yeah I would why don't we yellow them both for now I like your

I mean Rumblefish is the film that I think has gone on to become more celebrated. The Outsiders is a more conventional Hollywood movie. And it's also... It's an example of him making stylistic,

aesthetic choices that actually pay off. Yes. And elevate the material. Yes. And you aren't kind of lost. I mean... But...

And Sofia Coppola is also featured. She is. This is her first acting performance I might argue her best acting performance I think she's in the Outsiders for like one line also the Cotton Club

now my wife and I started watching this movie this week and she was like I hate movies like this movies where guys talk in old timey accents

and shoot each other I don't like this and I understood where she talk in old-timey accents and shoot each other, I don't like this. And I understood where she was coming from. It is a lot of people just talking in rooms. The restored version has some more

musical performances. It does. And those are nice. I like those a lot. The Cotton's Love encore. Yeah. I think good performance from Gregory Hines

in this movie. Diane Lane has never looked more beautiful. She is ecstatic in the movie. I think it's a real miss. Like, it's not a movie that I've never really liked.

Yeah, it's dull. And maybe a little bit of that Megalopolis thing where it's like, it's cool that you went for this, but it doesn't work. But it, like, it makes sense. I'm just like,

I don't really care about this. I can never connect to it. Like, you're back in a room wearing suspenders just, like, arguing with each other and then maybe shooting. There's something very artificial about it, too.

Yeah. You know, it doesn't look like the characters' costumes are lived in. It doesn't look like the world is lived. There seems to be something artificial about a lot of what you're watching. So I would say Cotton Club is red. Agree. I've kept Captain EO in here. Sure.

To discuss it with you because Captain EO is one of the signature pop culture documents of my youth. I, like so many kids in America at this time, loved Michael Jackson. Yes. I had every Michael Jackson record on in the house. My parents loved Michael Jackson, my mom especially. And we, like so many families, went to Disney World, Epcot Center. Yeah. And we watched the Captain EO film. I think we did too And it was It fucking rocked

Now I haven't seen this In a long time And I did not revisit it Nor did I But this is Yet another example Of Francis Ford Coppola

Saying movies Are not just one thing Movies can also be Only shown at Disney World And 17 minutes long Starring the most famous Person on the planet

I'm Obviously open to this As a pop cultural enthusiast and a reflection of his embrace of the wider canvas. Now, he's obviously doing something like this because he's like, I am down bad financially and I really need to get paid to make the 17 minute Captain EO movie, which will be shown exclusively at Disney World. Or maybe it was also at Disneyland, but I think it might've only been at Disney world. The whole backstory of this movie is very interesting. And the sort of like attraction and in theater effects that came with it were,

were really fun. And it would be fun to be able to experience that again. I mean, obviously given what, where Michael Jackson lives in the culture now, something like that's never going to happen again. But as a, like as an experiment, I feel like it's a yellow. Totally.

Oh, I thought you were trying to go straight to argue for green. No. Yellow is absolutely. No, but it, and like, this is actually more pertinent, I think, for you guys. Like, do you guys even know what this is, Jack and Bobby? You guys don't know what this is? Yeah. is jack and bobby you guys don't know what this is and they built an entire attraction at disney world that ran for years um that featured this film and like surrounding was it at disney world or was it at epcot well epcot is in disney world oh is it yeah i mean i went to both but i guess i

i'm not familiar with it's one of the centerpiece spaces right because there's magic kingdom and then epcot and together they are correct okay water parks and all that right yeah yeah yeah yeah but do they have separate mailing addresses zip codes i'm pretty sure that the i mean i haven't been to disney world in a long time but the big globe the big circular epcot globe thing i believe is right smack in the middle of disney world what is considered like the disney world parks where they're all connected i'm sure there's like some disney geeks listening they're all connected. I'm sure there's like some Disney geeks listening that are like, you're fucking this up.

Please, please, please don't at us. Just email Amanda Dobbins at amandadobbins.com. Captain EO's Yellow. Did you rewatch Peggy Sue Got Married? I sure did. So I didn't rewatch this one. I haven't seen it in a while. I was hoping you would have rewatched it.

Well, I mean, this is one of the exceptions where it's like Kathleen Turner's like very good at acting. She's great in this movie, as I recall. And she's very good in this movie. This is right in the sweet spot of her stardom, too. Yes. And this is also like late 80s Nick Cage being super weird, but also being late 80s Nick Cage and like so, so charming. Francis Ford Coppola's nephew.

Yeah. And somehow Kathleen Turner was eventually sued by Nicolas Cage for defamation for her description of his performance on set. Needless to say, they didn't get along. I believe he won and she had to apologize. It's tough. She's a little loose with her personal commentary. Yeah, but that's what makes her great. You enjoy that. Yeah, of course.

She's good and it is interesting in that it is like a revisitation of the 50s like Outsiders, Rumblefish world, but both from the perspective of a woman and also from the perspective of a woman and also from the perspective of age, because the premise of the movie is that she wakes up and is back in her high school body and reliving her high school choices. A little bit of post Back to the Future mania in this movie to me.

Yeah, it's good and she's good in it. It feels like a very, as I recall, conventional and somewhat impersonal high concept Hollywood 80s movie. Yeah. Relative to the rest of the stuff that he does. Now, I haven't seen it in a long time, so maybe if I rewatch it, I'd be like, oh, he's putting this and this from his perspective into it. But almost all of his movies, you're like, he's obsessed with this. That always felt like one that he didn't seem as sort of broadly entertaining as is. And it was like a modest hit.

Right. It's also just sort of a for hire experience. Like he directs it, but he doesn't write it. But to this point in his career, he had so few of these. Yeah. You know, like even The Outsiders, which you said was for hire, he's pouring like his own perspective on 50s and 60s America into those movies. I don't think it's going to go in, even though it's like a solidly good movie. It's solid, yeah.

Have you had a chance to see Gardens of Stone? I did for this podcast. Good for you. This is a very dour drama. And also very personally sad for him because his son, Gio, dies during production. Yes. And I guess it's fitting that a movie

that is effectively about graveyards would happen at this time in his life. I find this to be one of his most devastating and quiet movies. Yeah. I don't think it's a Hall of Fame contender, but it's a movie that I like to recommend

to people because so few people have heard of it. It may be the most obscure movie in his career. It also does explain why D.B. Sweeney is in Megalopolis. It certainly does. In case you're curious about that.

He has a critical part in it, as does the late James Earl Jones, who just passed. And it features just great stuff from James Caan and Angelica Houston. Yeah. They're both really wonderful in this movie. It's about a Marine who essentially tends to the cemetery where fallen soldiers are buried and is going through effectively a midlife crisis, a kind of like personal sadness and is trying to figure out what to do with his life.

Good film. Probably read. Okay. You want to yellow it? No, that's fine. I think if you had an overwhelming passion for it, I could go with you on it. I don't have an overwhelming passion.

It's very sad. It is. 1988, Tucker, The Man and His Dream. Another movie't have an overwhelming passion. It's very sad. It is. 1988 Tucker, The Man in His Dream. Another movie that he had long planned. This is the most one-to-one

I Am Tucker movie like I Am Tucker circumstance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where like the lead character who is an auto designer who is attempting to

upend the Fords and GMs of the world by creating his new car. Sees the future and believes in the power of technology and his family. I think he knows what people want, even if they haven't seen what it is yet. This is a movie that he had tried to get made for years

and couldn't get it made until George Lucas came along and helped him get it made. And it's very good. It is sort of like the great man version of the Peggy Sue Got Married where I'm like, this is a good movie. There's no doubt about it. I mean, it is also in a lot of ways

and overly simplistically the key to understanding Francis Ford Coppola and Megalopolis and everything that he's tried to do since. Yes. I mean, I think only one Academy Award nomination, even though it seems like the kind of movie that people would love. I think just like his standing in the culture is part of the reason why this movie was not as warmly received. So it is very conventional.

And then there is something sort of bewilderingly optimistic about it, given how given how it turns out yeah i think that's it i mean as you said that's yeah that's his mode of operation which is fascinating so it is sort of like a rosetta stone for he died six years later and every company that makes cars now uses his technology you spoiled the film i said spoiler alert um i think this kind of has to go in as like a stand-in for his point of view on the world especially because i do not think that 1989's New York Stories segment will be going in. Also starring his daughter, Sofia Coppola. Yeah.

She has other talents. Many talents. Speaking of acting in her father's films, it just doesn't happen to be one of them. The Godfather Part 3. A movie I like. I don't like it. Okay. Even before she shows up

why is Appiccino's hair like that oh I love it the spike it's so upsetting to me oh if I could do that now I would do it today no no and it is also like the Egon Stengler I love that haircut I hate it and it's like only I guess 15 years have passed but Pacino has gone from the Pacino of Godfather 2 to like, and I'm just like, this is really upsetting to me. No. The Godfather Part 3 is a misfire,

but it is very commercially successful and actually gets a number of Academy Award nominations. So even though it is done in part for money and in part to get back on track and get out of debt, and this is sort of around the time when he's starting to develop, I think some of the wine strategies that are going to kind of elevate get out of debt. And this is sort of around the time when he's starting to develop I think some of the

wine strategies that are going to kind of elevate him out of this stuff. He goes basically into like his paycheck era. It dovetails nicely with Bram Stoker's Dracula

which I think is great. I was expecting you to put it in and you can have it if you want. I would like to put it in. Great. I think it's like

a very bold adaptation. I think the performances are uneven keanu my apologies you're a little bit out of your depth against gary oldman in this movie but gary oldman is wowsers good as dracula and when he and winona rider this goes back to my please respect winona no i know but i'm just like beetlejuice age of innocence dracula reality bites like all in this like five Heathers all in this five year window I'm like come on

yeah very powerful but you know but very good and very good taste I mean really like working with the best filmmakers and having interesting

she ruined the Godfather part three but that's fine well she made up for it with Bram Stoker's Dracula yeah the Godfather part three

with Winona would have been confusingly interesting okay what was the verdict on the Godfather part three I think it's have been confusingly interesting. Okay. What was the verdict on The Godfather Part 3? I think it's red. Yeah.

Okay. I don't like it. So Bram Stoker's Dracula is in. And also just a good horror movie. You know, in addition to being a bold adaptation of a famous literary work. That's cool, man. It's your thing, you know? It is my thing.

1996 is Jack. I didn't rewatch this, but I did see it in 1996. I did it as well. I saw it in movie theaters. Yeah, of course. We were of the age. I recall enjoying rewatch this but I did see it in 1996. I did it as well. I saw it in movie theaters. Yeah, of course. We were of the age. I recall enjoying it, honestly.

Yeah. I do remember it being pilloried by critics as like, what has become a Francis Ford Coppola taking on this tripe. Right.

But I thought it was funny. And then I was doing some research and read a quote from him, people being like, he gave a quote saying, people were like,

why did you make Jack? Why are you making a Disney movie? He's like I wanted to make it. I had a nice time. Fair enough, Francis. It's red. Yeah.

1997's The Rainmaker. Are you going to make a bid for this? I mean no. This is an adaptation of a John Grisham novel starring Matt Damon.

You know good at once again he's really good at calling shots on actors this is fairly early megalopolis yeah um this is pre-saving private ryan but post courage under fire right and goodwill hunting comes out the same year so he's like in the mix but I mean I enjoy this movie like what is uh it's not like marigold respectful

yellow but sort of just like I'm glad it exists yellow I'm not very good at my like canary yellow sure okay

yeah canary yellow it is 10 years go by no movies mm-hmm 2007 we get to this critical point and I wish I had

said this earlier when we were talking about megalopolis but if you want to understand Megalopolis the most, you should watch one from the heart. But if you want to understand it a little bit more, I think you should watch all three of these next movies. Because these three next movies and their style and what interests him, stuff has changed. He's been through a lot in his life. He's had a tumultuous professional and personal life. He's lost a child. His kids have grown up and they're going on to their own successes. He's been through a lot with his wife.

And he becomes extremely reflective. And all three of these movies are very reflective movies. And they're all not quite great. But they're all aspiring hard to something different and interesting pretty interesting yeah yeah so youth without youth is an adaptation is a sort of adaptation of a novel about an older man who all of a sudden moves back 30 years in time and it's an adaptation of a novel that someone gave to him because the novel was relevant to his ideas for Megalopolis. That's right.

It stars Tim Roth. All three of these movies I like and don't love. I think Youth Without Youth is probably the most successful for me. I agree. I don't know if I feel like it makes sense in the hall, but maybe it does as the last piece of his trajectory. I mean, it is, and not just because of, like, it is like very thematically related to Megalopolis.

And I don't know if it helped me understand Megalopolis anymore. And even he, when like talking about this film, was like, it was part of my studies for making Megalopolis, but it's also in many ways like the total opposite of what Megalopolis is, which is true, I guess. I mean, not entirely. There are elements of, it's an exploration of time and whether time can be manipulated or whether we can move through it. And also love. And also fascism. Mm-hmm. Is there any architecture?

Absolutely. Well, is he an architect? No. Yeah. But I mean, sure. I mean, it's filmed in Europe, which is also great. That's another thing. It is realist, except for the kind of sci-fi parts. So I like it a lot.

Let's yellow it for now. Okay. 2009's Tetro. Yeah. Just shot in black and white. Stars Vincent Gallo. Speaking of casting canceled people before they've been canceled. This is a movie about a young man played by Alden Ehrenreich

whose ship breaks down in Buenos Aires. Right. Which is where his brother lives. And his brother is Gallo. And this is kind of like a little bit of an ode to Fellini, a little bit of an ode

to like the European art house that he likes. Very, seemingly a very personal story that I always felt a little personal distance from.

Like I never totally clicked with this movie. But it did, I think it probably got the best reviews out of these three movies from this period it is so so grounded yeah it's very beautiful to look at it is sort of melodramatic but when you have been the gal and really all the nairn right quick thing is good in this, like playing it very close to the, to the vest. It like makes it slightly less over the top.

It's interesting. It does also feel like he's working through some of his own family issues, you know, throughout it, which makes it interesting. It was supposed to be Joaquin Phoenix in this movie. Oh, Joaquin Phoenix bailing on movies back in the news.

But, um, I wonder if this movie would have hit a little bit differently, especially I feel like Aaron Reich and Phoenix feel more like brothers to me than Aaron Reich and Vincent Gallo do. Yeah. It's a good movie, not a great movie. It's probably not going in.

I don't think it is either. Let's read that. 2011's Twixt. Never seen it before until this past week. This is a movie starring Val Kilmer about an author in a small town who's exploring local murders. This is the movie that feels the most like Megalopolis to me in terms of its like awkward tone. Yeah, that's fair. There's like kind of like a clumsiness in this movie.

Some of it is very beautiful. There's a lot of photography. We should say Mihai Malamere, who's the Romanian cinematographer who has been filming his movies since this new period in Youth Without Youth, has like an interesting, sort of awkward eye to me too.

And so between the pacing and the way that these movies look, there's something very odd about them. There's this sort of like eye to me too and so the between the pacing and the way that these movies look there's something very odd about them there's some there's this sort of like otherworldly Edgar Allen Poe stuff

in this movie that I feel like is very beautiful but doesn't work well in the story no and then the stuff that's set in the

real world looks bad but the story I'm more interested in so I find that the movie is again a cool experiment that

doesn't work but if you're looking to figure out like how did the guy who made The Godfather Part II start making movies like Megalopolis? Yeah, at least visually and tonally, yes. And then I think Youth Without Youth is sort of a thematic. Yeah. So, Tetro and Twixt are out. Yeah.

Megalopolis, you think, is out despite achieving. Well, so that's the question, right? What line will the word megalopolis appear on in Francis Ford Coppola's obituary, which I hope is not published for another 25 years? I mean, is it his last movie, you know? Oh, I would imagine so. Then

it's quite a summation, in a way. I feel like in terms of calling your shot, it should go in i agree with you and then and the narrative project i will see it again soon i what if i come in and i'm like i figured it out i mean it's in play right megalopolis it's like i'm you know it like it brought me no pleasure what's that louise mensch tweet about it brings you know so and so will face the death penalty which i don't support you don't remember this is like chris ryan's favorite louise louise that Louise Mensch tweet about it brings, you know, so-and-so will face the death penalty,

which I don't support. You don't remember this? This was like Chris Ryan's favorite thing. Louise was recording her pod here in Spotify Studios. You know, it brings me no pleasure

to say that I didn't get it. But, so I would love to be proven wrong. Well, I mean, I got it. I just don't,

it doesn't work. I think, let's put it in. Okay. I like it. And that leaves us in an interesting place. So if we count the greens we've done so far, if we include Patton,

the screenplay for Patton, you've got The Godfather, The Conversation, The Godfather Part II, Apocalypse Now, Tucker, The Man and His Dream, and Megalopolis. That's seven films.

We need to pick at least one. And you counted Patton, right? And I counted Patton, yeah. So that's seven, including Patton. That's And I counted Patton, yeah. So that's seven including Patton. That's eight including Patton. Oh, eight with Dracula. I missed Dracula. So eight.

So then we need to choose two more. My instinct here. Yeah. My instinct would be to do Rumble Fish and One from the Heart. Mine as well. I mean, sorry, that wasn't dramatic podcasting, but. i think it's okay you know i mean we could also be ourselves make our own rules and do outsiders rumble fish together one from the heart and then that doesn't help us that's 10

no no is it yeah because we already had oh okay so right so we could do that so if you in your own mind the powerful mind of Amanda Dobbins. Listen, I'm making up my own rules just like Francis Ford Coppola. Absolutely. So why can't we do Outsiders Rumblefish? Outsiders backslash Rumblefish. Okay. It's been allowed on lists before in this podcast.

Yeah. It's our world. Well, when we're tried at the Hague, we'll have to acknowledge openly that we put 11 films on our 10 film list. Well, we do it all the time. When you're put to death. It's what Francis would want, you know? He doesn't believe in the strictures of 10 films.

He doesn't. He's had a remarkable career. Just to go through it one more time. Yeah. The films in the Francis Ford Coppola Hall of Fame are Patton, The Godfather, The Conversation, The Godfather Part II, Apocalypse Now, One from the Heart, On One Line,

The Outsiders and Rumblefish, Tucker, The Man and His Dream, Bram Stoker's Dracula, and Megalopolis. Amanda, we're going to miss you on this podcast. I'll miss you guys. Oh, thanks. Yeah, me too. I'll miss you guys. Oh, thanks. Yeah, me too. I'll think about it.

This is neither the last time Amanda's recording nor the last episode that Amanda will appear on in the actual chronology of the podcast. I know, it's true. Things get really, really interesting from here. We have banked a great many episodes. Amanda has been very flexible in her scheduling during these pregnancy months.

We have a lot in the canister, so you're not really going anywhere. Please don't bring up canisters. Okay. That's all I ask. When the child comes, I will bring a beautiful meal served in a canister.

It will be a... I also, I got to figure out how to do voice memos. I mean, I know how to do them, but I get pretty nervous when it's just, do you want me to do an iMessage, Bobby? Or can I do like on the voice memo app and then send it to you?

Voice memo app and send it in an email so it doesn't disappear. Okay, that's great. So there we go. You know, that's just, that's a whole new medium of podcasting that I'm about to unlock. I'm really excited.

Yeah. Interesting timing here. You seem to be missing the episode about Joker fully adieu, which will be coming to this feed later this week. Van Lathan will join me. Do you have a screening lined up? I do on Monday. Oh, okay.

Yeah. It's called an early access screening that I bought tickets to, which is something I just do now. Oh, wow. Because the press screening is not. Warner Brothers, email me. Yeah. Come on, guys.

Let me know. When can I see this movie? Yeah. Van and I are going to talk about it. I'm excited. Warner Brothers, email me. Yeah. Come on, guys. Let me know. When can I see this movie? Yeah. Van and I are going to talk about it. I'm excited. You won't be missed. I will. Maybe your first voice memo.

I will definitely. No, because I won't be able to see that one, but I'm definitely going to listen to it anyway. It's exciting. Should be super normal. Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work. We'll see you at Joker 2.