The Big Picture - The Genius of Pixar's 'Soul' and 'Wonder Woman 1984' Backlash

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

Sean and Amanda look at the early reactions to DC's latest film, which arrived on HBO Max on Christmas Day, and discuss what the ramifications could be to backlash against the film (0:43). Then, they discuss one of the year's best films, Pixar's 'Soul' (41:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about burying our souls. Today, Amanda and I will dig into the early and in some cases negative reactions to Wonder Woman 1984 and discuss what it might mean for the future of blockbuster movies. Then we'll train our hearts on one of the year's best films, the latest Pixar experience, Soul. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. Amanda, I told a lie. We were doing a podcast about a week and a half ago. It was about the 1995 movie draft.

And at the end of that podcast, I said, hey, guys, this is it. This is the last pod of the year. It was great doing everything with you. I had shared some heartfelt feelings about doing the big picture with you, which is a big deal to me. And I said, we'll see you in the new year. And that was wrong because I can't help myself. And when the movie Wonder Woman 1984 came out, I was pretty surprised actually to see some of the intensely negative reaction to the

movie that I was getting largely via social media. So perhaps I should have predicted this, but I wanted to talk to you about it. So hello, Sean. Here we are again in this cursed year. So I just want to be clear. Are you taking responsibility for the fact that we have to be here talking about social media or are you blaming social media? Wow. We're getting existential early on in this conversation. I kind of think you have to, because here's the thing, guys. If you didn't like Wonder Woman 1984, that's cool. You and I were kind of like, eh, this has some major problems. As I said, I had a cocktail and enjoyed the first hour, and I have a huge crush on Gal Gadot. But your mileage may vary, and that's life in the NBA. That's what happens when you watch movies or do anything. And I like completely respect your own opinion, which like I, you know, if you wanted to share it on social media, that's cool too. But like what,

whatever we're doing is like very, or we is very, does not involve me there, but whatever like was happening on Twitter and elsewhere has like very little to do with the movie itself. So I do think we have to get a bit existential. Yeah, I agree. This struck me as a somewhat new experience, and we can discuss what exactly is new about it. And we anticipated this, obviously, because of the nature of the HBO Max release. But before we get into that, let's just do a little bit of context around kind of everything that's happened with Wonder Woman 1984, because a lot of people have had a chance to see it in their homes. They've also had a chance to see it in movie theaters. In fact, $87 million worth of people around the world went to go see this movie in a movie theater.

$16.7 million worth of people in the US went to movie theaters. They cracked that threshold of $10 million. I threw it. You won the last podcast. You did it. Just tick that off. I was right, number one. Continue. Amanda, you are frequently right. The record reflects that even if people don't want to accept that. Thank you so much. One thing that happened is that the stock price of many of the movie theater companies jumped because of the results here, which I find fascinating. I think it's all kind of a shell game and this is not necessarily a major reflection of what's going to happen with the future of movie theaters. But this was actually considered a positive result. If you go back to the summer when Tenet opened at $20 million, that was considered a dramatic failure.

This is considered somewhat of a success, which is interesting. This movie also got a B-plus cinema score from the audiences exiting the movie theater who were polled. That's not a sterling score. B-plus is actually considered by the metrics of cinema score somewhat mediocre, but it's definitely not bad. And I think that that B-plus kind of reflects what our opinion about the movie was, which was like, this movie's kind of tepid and kind of mediocre, but there are things about it that we really liked. Let's talk about some of the things that we liked. Yes. So HBO Max, in the aftermath of the screening of the film,

says that nearly half of its subscribers watched the film on opening day. What half of how many people that is, we have no idea. This is the streaming era data that we have been provided. And much like Netflix for the last few years, I just have no idea how many people watch this movie. But I certainly heard from a lot of people on the internet about this movie. And I know that a lot of people listen to our episode about this movie because people were very engaged in part because it's a superhero movie in part because there's a huge level of brand awareness for Wonder Woman in part because frankly, a lot, it seems, signed up for HBO Max to check the movie out. So in the immediate aftermath of watching the movie, Warner Brothers greenlit a third Wonder Woman movie with Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins returning,

and that movie has been fast-tracked. Did any of this surprise you? Any of the way that any of this information came through, the results, the box office, et cetera? I was surprised by the box office. I mean, I was correct in that it did break 10 million, but I wasn't confident about that. And, you know, how people are experiencing and handling the pandemic is, and geographically differently, as well as, you know, morally or whatever is continually fascinating to me. And I just don't have a handle on it. So I had like no expectation of how people would handle the theater aspect. It doesn't surprise me that HBO Max had more people watching this movie than normally watch of relative and we don't really know what it means irl i i would agree with i like the the movie theater stock price thing i agree that's just that's kind of made up people people got to trade stocks like because they have nothing else to do

i guess yes that's the new women be shopping, is people be trading stocks. Yeah, it's like, sure. And then it was interesting when you said that you heard about this movie from a lot of people on the internet. I spent the time from Christmas Eve till this Monday not on the internet. And I just want to let you know

that I didn't hear about this movie from anybody. And I spent a lot of time Zo with friends and like texting with friends who are like civilians. They're not of like the pop culture internet, got to have a take, got to make a meme culture. And it's like, this doesn't exist. And that's not to say that it doesn't exist. and a lot of people don't watch this, but it's just like, it is a very siloed internet focused experience. Yes, it's interesting because I think on the one hand, you're absolutely right. Basically what I'm talking about

and what I'm reacting to is film Twitter essentially, is just this collection of people that intensely argue and rant and get excited about things. And go ahead. Well, I think it's film Twitter plus just people who get mad on the internet Twitter. Sure. Reaction culture internet, which is its own very defined thing and exists adjacent to movies, but also TV shows to also like Hilaria Baldwin. Like, I don't know what

that was about this week because who I don't care about Hilaria Baldwin, but you know, the same thing of just people glomming on something to sports, honestly. And like your, you know, extended meltdown about the jets and just like, have you thought about the fact that you just spend a lot of time like crying in public because the Jets are winning? Like that's actually what's happening. What is happening here? How did we get to this place already? I'm trying to support you.

I'm working closely with you on this project together. I'm in a lot of pain. And you just attacked me needlessly on a Wonder Woman podcast. Let me tell you, let me tell another anecdote about another person in my life and continue like the honored tradition of just like completely lambasting my husband on this podcast. But Zoomed with my dad on Christmas Eve. I was so excited. And my dad is like, loves me and loves movies and always is really excited to talk to me. But when he sees Zach, he is like really excited to talk to Zach.

And he's taken on the Philadelphia Eagles is like really excited to talk to Zach and he's taken on the Philadelphia Eagles fandom as a way to connect with Zach but I won't get into the the specifics of it but but the Eagles have a new quarterback who is better than Jalen Hurts who is better than the quarterback that um Carson Wentz who they paid a lot of money for. And the Eagles started winning. And my husband has experienced this as some sort of like, like crisis of not just confidence in the Eagles, but in life, he's just like, I don't know what to do because of all of the front office, like shenanigans, salary cap, whatever. So he's like trying to explain this to my dad. And I just watched my dad's face, like full of love for Zach. Also just trying to explain this to my dad and I just watched my dad's face like full of love for Zach also just trying to wrap his head around the fact that Zach was like mad that the Eagles are winning

and like mad that they have a new quarterback and my dad was like you're a crazy person like I you could just see it in his face just being like you have gone into a zone of like takes and up is down and nothing is right and you know that says a lot about the Philadelphia Eagles. But I do think that that is just also, that is a world that people get sucked into as a result of being like really enthusiastic about a certain thing and also being on the internet a lot

and being surrounded by takes and like, you know, having to churn like a new idea or a new thing about it. And then there are 15 people who want to glom on and you just go into crazy land a little. And that is that's what's happening. Yeah, I think that's mostly right. I think that that this culture obviously thrives on extremity. And so a lot of the feedback that I heard from people was you guys were way too

soft on this movie which is not really feedback that we get very often i think people were genuinely surprised that we did not tear the movie apart even though we don't really i mean that's not something we really even do on this podcast nevertheless i also just don't think this was a movie worth tearing apart i even listened to our our pals and colleagues mallory rubin and van lathan on the tv concierge podcast talk about this movie and I was like I don't did I watch a different movie I think it's like an utterly mediocre comic book movie and utterly mediocre comic book movies are the stock and trade and the point I was I was gonna make here is that sure this is film twitter and sure this is a a cross-section of people on the internet who are very angry and want to complain and many people are trapped in their

homes and this has been a hugely frustrating year for a lot of reasons and we we're all looking for reasons to vent. I vent about the Jets. Other people vent about Wonder Woman. I completely understand all of that. Nevertheless, in a paradoxical way, this is also the most mainstream thing that we have. This is popular culture. And so certainly the people that are complaining about it represent a fraction of the people that experience this, which also represents a fraction of the people of awareness of it, which represents a fraction of the people in the universe. All of that can be true. Nevertheless, this is popular culture. This was a popular episode of the big picture because this was an immensely popular movie that just came out.

And so it's an interesting window into the way that we talk about these things and the way that we're going to talk about them and the kind of things that we're going to get. Um, you know, the movie has a 72% Rotten Tomatoes audience score. I don't, I, as with many things with Rotten Tomatoes, I don't really understand what that means. Who participates in that? I'm sure if I ask that out loud, someone will tell me on the internet angrily, but I look at those things and people are like, as you can see, based on the RT score, many people are in fact enjoying this film. I don't know what any of this stuff is. I don't know what any of this polling data is. It feels very similar to politics.

I don't think we should be using this kind of information to decide whether people like something or not. I have no information and I won't research it. I don't like at the end of the day. Honestly, if you didn't like it, that's cool. I'm, you know, and if you, and if honestly, honestly, if you were, if you had like a Christmas that wasn't the Christmas that you wanted, which like a lot of people did and myself included, you know, I was not with my family and for the first time in my adult life. And you were looking forward to Wonder Woman 1984 as like something to kind of lift your spirits. And you were just like, you had planned your day around

it, or you were really looking forward to it. And you experienced like a sense of disappointment. Like that makes me sad. I don't take responsibility for it. Cause I didn't make this movie. You want your money back, go to HBO max. This is a free podcast. But like, I like I am. I'm sorry because that sucks. But I do kind of feel like people just people being disappointed by a film experience is like a very separate thing from kind of the performative online whatever that was happening. And like both things can be true, right? That people didn't like this movie.

And then just like people got their rocks off on the internet. Cause like, that's what happens now. Yes. I think that's right. I think that's what it is. I think there are a lot of people who just really did not like the movie. And I think there are also a lot of people who are like,

this is a great opportunity for me to fire off the take cannon. And so we get what we get. But as you, as you point out, this happens all the time. We did, we did this last year with Rise of Skywalker. I think it was probably one year to the day

you and I were in a home in Palm Springs recording a podcast. Remember Palm Springs? That was crazy. Completely different life. That was a different life. But we were in that house recording a podcast about the Rise of Skywalker

and the reactions to the Rise of Skywalker. And this happens. This frequently happens with Star Wars movies. It less so happens with Marvel movies, which I think is a notable distinction here. Well, it hasn't happened with Marvel movies in like 10 or 15 years. As you pointed out, Iron Man 2, not what you want. Thor 2, also not what you want. It did take, you know, the second one. I was thinking about this in the shower recently. Harry Potter, the second one, just like not good. Also, I told you I was going to talk a lot about some mystery novels that I've been reading

instead of reading people's takes on the internet. So I just started the Louise Penny series. She has like this detective. His name is Armand Gamache, and it's set in Quebec, which is an area I don't know very much about, but reading a lot of Wikipedia about Quebec. Lovely novels. They're a series of 16. I would say I've read two.

The first one was like awesome. And the second one, it had some of the pleasures, but it also, she like hadn't found the direction yet. The second one's not as good. There's always a drop off. That's, it's, what are you going to do? I do think you're right that just when Thor 2 and Iron Man 2 happened in kind of internet sphere didn't produce the same amount of venom or else the venom wasn't as mainstream.

Like this is just what people do now, especially in the week after Christmas is just log on and are like, hey, screw this or whatever. And, you know, some people seem to take joy from that also. Like, did you sense joy in people being like hey like isn't this fun like this sucks well there's like there's like the feedback that we got and yeah there's the feedback that we got and then that's different from just people talking about it like dunking on it and and i i want to talk about like the ways in which they dunked on it and what the criticisms of the movie are because i think they're interesting and i think they speak to an issue that these movies have. You're right, though.

Iron Man 2 is a funny memory because that's a movie that was directed by Jon Favreau, who, as you point out, is basically the only author, along with Dave Filoni, of the one thing we all agreed on this year. By we, I mean the people that I'm referring to on the internet, which is that The Mandalorian was great. And The Mandalorian brought back Luke Skywalker at the end of its season, which is also something that was controversial just a couple of years ago. And we were going through the Star Wars saga.

That was last year. That was when Han Solo came back and everyone was like, no. And then when Luke Skywalker CGI came back to life, you're all like, yes. I just like, you know, I don't want to take that away from you because it's been a shitty year. And I know that CGI Luke Skywalker means so much to all of you. And like, that's cool. And I do also think there is something, there's a distinction in those having never seen the Mandalorian.

I do understand that it was like well done. It was well executed. And I do think there was this feeling that Rise of Skywalker, which I did see, was not as well executed. It felt a little haphazard. So how you execute the fan service does matter. But it's like fan culture is a hell of a drug. It is.

Nevertheless, I thought it would be useful to just kind of understand where the critical bloodlust is coming from and what people have been pointing out about Wonder Woman because some of the key criticisms I think we pointed out we just did not point it out in operatic fashion for example there were some real frustrations with the pace of and the length of this movie and that's understandable this movie Wonder Woman 1984 is

151 minutes I love a good long movie personally but there's only two other superhero movies that I could identify that are longer than this movie, and they're Avengers Endgame, which was literally the summation of a 15-year project, and Batman vs. Superman, which is absolutely terrible

in my opinion, and the DC movies in particular are even longer than the Marvel movies on average, I believe, and tend to have a problem with bloat here, but Wonder Woman 1984 is way too long. I mean, there's just no denying that criticism that it is oddly paced, it is flabby

at times, and frankly, the back half of the movie doesn't really work that well. So that was one that I completely understand what people are saying. Can I just say something? Yeah. Anyone on Earth trying to point out to me, Amanda Dobbins, that a movie is too long and it shouldn't be longer than two hours, like, makes my blood boil. No shit, Sherlock.

Listen to every episode of this podcast, including the one that we did about Wonder Woman 1984. Like, it just makes me want to just, like, lie down on the floor and give up. Of course it's too long make movies under two hours time limits are good i revisited our conversation about this movie just to make sure i was getting some of our facts right and i think you very uh carefully hand-waved the geopolitical mess that the movie kind of makes which i think was smart i frankly did not want to have that conversation and i didn't address it when we were talking about it, but there is just a whole lot of super weird quasi political disinformation

in this movie about the nature of Egypt and the nature of oil sales and what American politics was like in 1984. And people are just like handing over ancestral lands and then taking them back. Yeah, it was not. Misidentifying that Egypt has an emir, which it does not. Misidentifying that it would sell oil to Saudi Arabia. You know, I think that movies like this are certainly worthy of this kind of criticism because they're seen by so many people.

And so when you have a movie like this is seen by so many people, that kind of disinformation actually like infects people's brains, especially uneducated people. And so there can be damage done. I think simultaneously you hear the same criticisms about Marvel movies, that the Marvel movies are tools of the military industrial state, you know, or that they are pamphlets for US global policing. If you look at like critical theory about superhero movies, there is a lot of conversation about the damage that these movies do by getting people excited about this kind of storytelling. We don't usually get into that on this show. I'm certainly aware of that kind of conversation. I lend it some credence, but not a lot of credence. This movie in particular,

though, I think because of Gal Gadot's heritage, where she comes from, the fact that she served in the IDF, the fact that this is a movie that is very willfully going to the Middle East, despite those circumstances, is certainly vulnerable to that criticism and makes itself vulnerable to that criticism. You know, to me, it's another plot point in a mediocre movie that just doesn't work that well. And it's kind of silly and seems a little bit either mis or disinformed. It didn't strike me as worthy of like a screed. And I have seen some screeds about this, which I find interesting. It's all about how seriously we're taking these things. And to your point earlier,

I think it's also about how mad people are with how things are going in the world right now. And so you look deeply into things that do not have depth and you pull from them critically, which is something that people are certainly allowed to do, and certainly capable of doing.

But I don't usually do with a project like this, which just didn't seem super sophisticated from the start. Yeah, I think that this is a valid criticism, and it doesn't really make sense. And one of the reasons that we didn't delve into it in this, in the podcast is because I had only seen the movie once, and like, what the film had to say about it actually like didn't add up. And I didn't feel like I could intelligently critique it because it, it is not well-developed and it is not thoughtful. I would agree with everyone who said that. And you know, that's one thing where also if you can watch it several times and then you can really break everything down. But listen, I, that type of criticism and critique is great by me. If these are going to be like mainstream pop culture

things, then I do think if we have to take them seriously, then like, let's take them seriously. And in the same way, we've talked about how Iron Man starts like in Afghanistan, right? I believe so. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's identified as Afghanistan, but yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's, this is a through line in all of these movies, the concept of America, the military industrial complex, like the, the idea of America, the military industrial complex, like the idea of war, you know, we complain all the time about how just like, it always has to be like nuclear war and every, the world is going to end in every single one. I definitely talk about it. Yeah, I agree. I think to that same token, one of the reasons I try not to take,

I don't spend as much time on that kind of criticism is if you start to untangle some of this stuff, there is no movie. For example, many people have said, why didn't Wonder Woman stop the Holocaust? Why didn't she stop the Vietnam War? Why didn't she stop many of the tragedies that transpired over the 60 plus years that she was living without Chris Pine's character

in Washington, DC? I don't know and I don't care. Like I, it's a, it's a, it's a movie. I think I take this stuff really seriously, but I think people need to relax.

Like if your concern is why didn't wonder woman stop the Holocaust, you may be spending too much time thinking about wonder woman, 1984. The responsible or the grownup answer to that. We're not the grownup answer to that. I don't have an answer to that. I don't know why she didn't stop the Holocaust. We,

as you said, we just talked about being like, what was she doing? And isn't like, is it a mall heist kind of like low stakes for Wonder Woman? I agree. We identified that. I mean, you know, the criticism of like, why isn't this movie a different movie? Like, why didn't you do all these things?

Is I just like, I don't enjoy that type of criticism. I don't really think that's criticism at all. Like the mean version response to that is like, guys, it's a movie. Like, please log off. Just like, God, I would love to like, I would love to have a Louise Penny book club with you guys. Just read and DM me and let's go. Wow. That's an open call for DMs about Louise Penny books only. Yes. Or any similar mystery that isn't like too grim. Don't give me the ton of French. You know, I'm looking for a lighter vibe. Other criticisms of this movie.

We also pointed out that there were really no 80s movie needle drops, which is inexplicable. It's just inexplicable. I don't, you know, the Hans Zimmer score is just really noisy and loud and frankly feels incongruous with the production design of the movie which is going for this kind of purposefully kitschy excessive faux glamorous you know chintzy looking 80s style and when you hear that famous um guitar note that you've been playing so elegantly you know it the movie it doesn't feel right. And so I understand that criticism. Also the just the general Maxwell Lord dreamstone concept of every human

wishing for something venal or dangerous or selfish. It doesn't really hold up to inspection. You know, I think a lot of people have said, so should people just not wish for things? Should they not want things to change? Should we all just accept the status quo? What about people who wished to eliminate cancer or for world peace? How do you explain those narrative leaps in logic? The answer is,

I don't know. Dreamstone is just as silly as any other MacGuffin, which I think we also talked about. It's just a MacGuffin. Everybody needs to relax. At some some point i just wish we could do screenshots of like my i'm just like what are we doing what well of course it's a mcgovern it's a mcgovern what's the thing with all the stones the infinity gauntlet yes yeah okay that's that's i rest my case also a a handful of stones that allow you to do basically anything that you want so it's amazing how these movies work you know what it is avengers endgame i think is as good as a movie like that can be and so because of that it's never going to come up for the same criticism that you know the mcguffin factor the sort of like what does this tool do versus that tool do criticism wonder woman 1984 is to for me significantly significantly worse than Endgame.

But Endgame is unusual. Endgame was a very memorable and important movie for a lot of people. Wonder Woman 1984 is a conveyor belt movie. There are a lot of conveyor belt movies. The difference here is that we didn't get any other conveyor belt superhero movies this year. This was a year in which basically, I guess you could count the new mutants, which I don't, I don't think you've seen that.

Most people didn't. It opened in movie theaters and played for about two months and then went to VOD and no one watched it because it's not good. But otherwise we didn't get a bunch of other superhero movies to compare this to. And that also feels like a factor here to me. Remember when that Yellowstone was lodged in that guy's head? That guy? His name is Vision. actor here to me remember when that yellow stone was lodged in that guy's head that guy

his name is vision of course that makes it better first of all he's not a guy all right please don't tell me what he is because that's all i remember is that they had to take the yellowstone. Whatever. People didn't like the Dreamstone. That's cool. He's artificial intelligence. Okay, I'm out. Eject, eject. I love Endgame.

That's a cool movie. You know what it is? Here's the problem. It's the having it all problem. And I don't mean to cite critical feminist theory in any meaningful way here, but it's a problem for blockbusters too too because this is a movie that is like way too invested and interested in the military state and and the concept of oil and the concept of global

national politics to be to get sympathy from the left and it's also to like rah-rah girl power and kitschy and feminine to get sympathy from the right. And so it's a movie that if, and frankly, you know as well as anybody that people make these movies ideological battles as much as anything. And so the left is out, the right is out. Everybody in the middle is like,

this is definitely not as good as Endgame or whatever. Insert movie here that you can compare it to without having to think about what actually happened in that other movie and think about the movie you just watched. And it's also not even really appealing to Stranger Things fans because it's not giving you those 80s needle drops. It's not even giving you some of the key reference points that you want to get from something like this. And so it's just kind of a big nothing for people, which I understand. I think the other important thing is that it is

not like a, it doesn't have a lot of the franchise elements. And for me, that was a good thing. And when they tried to jam in the cheetah character, which like no one really seems to think that works, but the way that that just kind of feels like tech tacked on, like a thing that they have to do, I'm willing to be like, oh, okay a DC you know movie so they they have to do this part but I'm going to focus on the other stuff but I think a lot of people watch these movies for that DC moment like for the way that it fits into the larger franchise and like the larger like fan experience and if if a movie hits that note then there is a group of people who are satisfied and willing to go to bat for it, even if the movie fails in other ways. But this movie doesn't do that either.

So it has kind of no constituency, really. I think that's a really good point. I think in the same way that Endgame gave you that big scene where all the characters came together. And so it kind of didn't even matter what happened all for the previous 140 minutes of the movie because you got that euphoric experience but if you go back and analyze the plot mechanics of end game that the time travel shit is incredibly confusing and and like not even very well done but people were just like whatever it doesn't matter this paid off this paid off in a way because i invested in the story and if henry cavill and Ben Affleck showed up at

the end of Wonder Woman 1984, would people have just liked it more? They might have. You make a good point. Doesn't Wonder Woman show up at the end of Batman versus Superman? Isn't that where she's introduced? Is that right? I think that's right. I can't recall. Anyway, doesn't work for me. But in this case, the payoff we get that that maybe or maybe does not tie things together is something that we i just didn't pick up on and i don't think you did either because like you said we only watched the movie once and frankly we're not paying close enough attention but that the character of hysteria who was the warrior who battled all of the men in the movie from whom diana inherited the golden armor we see at the end of the movie

it's linda carter and linda carter makes this appearance in The Stinger. And she, of course, was the original Wonder Woman in the 1970s television series. And that was meant to be, I think, as close to that kind of fan service universe continuity that you're describing. But even that felt kind of kitschy. It didn't really feel like the same kind of payoff where you're like, oh, yeah, this is how all the puzzle pieces fit together. It felt like just a wink. Going to be really honest with a huge amount of respect to Linda Carter, like huge respect to Linda Carter. I have not seen the stinger. Didn't know there was a stinger until you put this outline together.

I turned the movie off because I was at home and I have other things to do. Like if you want to sit and watch the credits and watch a stinger, I guess that's part of your experience. But you know, that's so interesting of all the people who are criticizing all of this. And then, well, and you have every right to, I don't mean to diminish anyone

who has criticism about this movie. This movie doesn't really work as we discussed and are continuing to discuss. There are moments that I didn't mind or kind of like enjoyed, but if it doesn't come together for you, that's fine. But it's so interesting to me. If a movie doesn't come together, that you still are just like willing to sit through to the end of it,

to watch like the corporate sponsored little stinger and then argue about what the stinger means and the larger corporate universe. Like, I don't understand that impulse of, I didn't like this, so I'm going to invest more time. That's a really interesting point. In many ways, I think that that means that the movie is successful. It means that people invested their time and their energy and their ideas, in part because they didn't have as much else to do because it was Christmas Day. And so there was a lot of idle time sitting around their houses but nevertheless um you know we did we did miss one other thing by

the way which is that diana lived on an entire floor of the watergate hotel which is not something that i realized when i was watching the movie but many people have pointed that out to me i i did notice that it was the watergate or cgi watergate when when watching it. But I think that that had fallen out of my brain by the time we recorded the podcast. I do think that, you know, if this movie came out in 2019, the same year that Captain Marvel and X-Men Dark Phoenix

and the Hellboy remake and a bunch of other utterly mediocre, if not outright terrible comic book movies came out, there just would not be this level of negativity. I do, I am interested to know if you think that this movie would have been a big hit in movie theaters. Would it have been like a mega success? Or would word of mouth have been an issue here?

I think it still would have been a mega success. I don't know if it would have been as much a success as the first one. And again, kind of the corporate sliding scale of what is a success with these tent poles. I mean, I have no idea at this point, you have to make like $8 billion, I guess, to make $3 according to their math. But I think it would have made a lot of money. Yes, again, it has made far more money in theaters than I expected it to in a pandemic. I think like more people have watched it than I expected them to.

I mean, on the podcast, we were talking about how you had to explain how to sign up for HBO to HBO Max to your family because it was just like not something at the center of the culture. Now, obviously, people were very bored. And so we're probably willing to spend a little more energy seeking something out. But like Wonder Woman is that's a big brand name. I think most people would have gone to see it. So here's the thing. The reason that I wanted to talk about this, maybe even to your chagrin, and I'm sure you anticipated this. It is to my chagrin, straight up.

But that's OK. I I'm sure you anticipated this. It is to my chagrin, straight up. But that's OK. I'm here for you, Sean. The thing that matters is not the criticisms of the movie or whether the movie works or doesn't. Reasonable people can disagree, even on the internet. But the idea of this movie is this is a first. This is unprecedented. We've never watched a movie together like this before.

A movie that is this big, that has this big of a budget, that has this kind of brand awareness. And certainly we watch TV show finales like this. This was like The Sopranos to me, where people were like, wow, I hated this. Or actually, here's what was good about this. Or like a sporting event when everyone is watching together and there is like an internet maelstrom around something that happens in a game. And it was interesting to watch movies go through that kind of that blender, that cycle.

And I'm obviously overreacting to it as I am prone to do on this podcast, but it was fascinating to watch a movie, um, be forced under that microscope lens in a way that they really aren't historically, or at least not in that concentrated way. Um, and I know that you are not as engaged in kind of like the real time for me, like on Christmas from noon to 1 PM, I was just like, wow, this is a lot of opinions about a wonder woman movie and much more so. And there was like no concern about spoiling things. There was no, it wasn't, it was so different even from the way that we watched movies a year ago. And that feels new.

Like people can screenshot stuff from the movie right away. They can, um, it's easier to be distracted and to just tweet during the movie. And it's also easy to be not impressed by the stuff you would be impressed by in a movie theater, you know, not having that experience. And also it's easy to not forget what doesn't work about the movie. You and I go to movies all the time. One thing that we do after the movie is we go to dinner and then we talk about the movie for eight minutes and then we talk about other stuff and then we forget certain things that the movie in the movie that happened. And then I go home half drunk and I take notes about the movie and I think about what I'm going to say on a podcast six days later, like a sociopath. But most people are not like that.

Most people are just like, I just go on with my life. I saw a movie and now I go on with my life. This was so different. And I find that really interesting. Yeah. It is definitely different. It's interesting. I don't know if it's positive.

I think it probably, in terms of the survival of movies movies is positive because this is just how culture exists now like and as you said this is like what happens for every tv series finale i was thinking a lot about the game of thrones finale um which a lot of takes on that remember the power of storytelling maybe same this is very similar this thing that people loved and and worshipped and they were like man fuck this at the end of it which is interesting and you know i was trying to think of anything where like a finale where that hasn't happened where someone like has actually stuck the landing and it's never really the case because there's i think breaking bad had a pretty warm reception okay the finale right but there was also even with breaking bad there was like

the whole bad fan thing because everyone like hated the one the female character and one you know there's there's always something that it's just like it gets a bit out of hand when you are doing this simultaneously with a lot of people who all have access to like to the same tools and that's okay that's just how culture works now It's definitely how it works for sports. It's again, why you talk about the jets so much. Um, so why? Okay.

I talk about it cause I'm in pain. Let's okay. Well, let's not get, we can get into that another time, but if we want movies to survive, you, they need to be important. Right.

And so if this is them being a part of the culture, then that is good. I did not spend my Christmas refreshing Twitter. And I like, it makes my heart hurt that that's what you did. And I like, just want to set some boundaries for you and invite you to my book club. And like, sometimes I'm just like, why are we?

I don't know. People seem to enjoy it. And I really, really, that's, I don't enjoy it. And that's not how I to enjoy it and I really really that's I don't enjoy it and that's not how I enjoy talking about in movies and that's not how I enjoy talking about anything or experiencing culture and it's not because like I want things to be good and I like I'm just bright-eyed and optimistic and only see the positive in anything like you guys know me if you've listened this far in the podcast like I don't think anything's good but if something's not good I don't want to spend more time with it. And a lot of people seem to really relish spending a lot more time with

stuff that failed. I just, I don't get it. Well, it's crossing over into this desire for critical bloodlust, this urge to have your feelings certified by someone else who has a louder voice than you do and i think that that was part of the feedback i mean look the only reason i was i spent an hour looking at people's reaction to the movie on christmas is because i wasn't spending any time with my nephews who live on the east coast like that is what i would have been doing on christmas if this was not a global pandemic that is feels endless and never ending and I'm certainly not proud of it. And I loathe what I've become.

You know, I detest the villain I've become of my own life. But it's a fact of life. And it is a reflection of the way that people are engaging with this stuff, which does matter to me. It is still interesting to me the way that people receive, consume, and then process popular culture. And then how it is reflected onto the way that we receive, consume, and then process popular culture. And then how it is reflected onto the way that we communicate in the world. And then more broadly, what kind of movies

we get. Whenever people say to me, like, why do you care about this stuff? Why do you always talk about the business stuff on this show? I always say the same thing, which is like, I'm interested in what we're getting next. The things that are successful drive the conversation for where the future of the medium and the art form goes. And I really care about it and I'm interested in it. And this feels like a pretty significant chapter in that story. For the same reason that we talked about Tenet and Trolls World Tour and all these other movies that are, you know, certainly not going to be in the national registry in 20 years for significant film achievement. But they might be in the history books for the way that they changed the way that we receive movies. And frankly, if a breathtaking Wonder Woman flying sequence

wasn't meaningful for people, we may not get movies that have sequences that feature figures like Wonder Woman flying anymore. We may get different kinds of movies. And that's why I'm so obsessed with this. Counterpoint, they made Marvel movies after Iron Man 2 and Thor 2. In fact, the movie that they made after Thor 2 is a movie that you all lost your minds over. And I actually did think was very funny. I like funny Chris Hemsworth. Like they're still making Star Wars movies.

And like that's a really specific point. A year ago, people were just extremely angry that Harrison Ford got hired again, had to take some time off from flying in order to battle Adam Driver on the weird wave planet. Look at how much I remember about this movie. People are so angry, right? And it was like, that was not a moment of wonder. That was like a desecration of Star Wars. A year later, they put Mark Hamill's face on somebody's body and everyone's just like, the franchise is saved. And we're going to have like 10 more Star Wars shows and like three more, like 8 million more movies, including one for theaters directed by Patty Jenkins. Like it comes

back. This is all part of the game. And I like, it's, it's not fun for, for people who like want things to be good and, or people who don't want to spend all their time on the internet but it's just it's part of the machine and as you said gave this movie a lot of attention more people watched it they made money they're gonna make more i she'll fly again or she won't but we'll be arguing about it as usual i'm the asshole it makes sense i understand that's that's 2020 for you let's take a quick break now and then when we come back we'll talk about something that's a little bit more spirited okay we're back now to a significantly less controversial movie, Soul.

Hey, this movie's good. It's so nice to have a good movie that also I think many people watched over Christmas and the holiday break and did not have the same relationship to as Wonder Woman 1984. I have seen nary a negative reaction to this movie, And I find that really interesting because this is a complex, I think oftentimes quite beautiful film, but it's, it's, it's sticky.

It's got some, some messy ideas and it's a bit, it's kind of threatening in a way to experience and to think about and to unpack in a way that a movie like Wonder Woman 1984 never could be. So when I first spoke about the movie on the pod, it was on the top five movies of 2020 pod. It's my number three movie of the year. I absolutely love this movie. I don't think you had seen it yet when we recorded that. So before we kind of explain the mechanics of the movie and what worked or didn't, what'd you think of it? I thought it was very

good. I'm a Pete Docter fan. That's what I said to you. I slacked you as soon as I finished it and was like, Pete Docter made me cry again. And that's my verdict. I think it's very good. I also rewatched Inside Out to prepare for this podcast because I do my homework. Inside Out is astonishing. And it's a five-star movie. It's a five-star movie. It's one of the three animated films that i truly

love and i think that this is of the school of inside out but does not and and it has like a lot of like quite literal influences but doesn't really rise to inside out level and that's okay um i've been really interested in the do kids like this movie discourse. That's the discourse that I've been a part of mostly because it's just really funny to hear parents describe like trying to make their kids watch Soul and then the kids are like the cat, the cat talks.

And you know that hasn't been nasty or negative but it is interesting to think a little bit about that as a way to talk about the purpose of this movie or even what this movie is about. Because that was one of the interesting things is you and I made a list, but we kind of think this movie is about different things. Or we took slightly different things from it. I think that it's about a lot of things.

But that is not usually how you message to kids. Or at least it's not how Pixar or like Peppa Pig messages to kids. It's about like one thing. And this is like what you learn and it helps you understand the world. And I honestly think in a lot of ways that is the genius of Inside Out and Pixar movies is that it explains something in a way that kids can understand, but also we adults learn something about ourselves. And I definitely learned something from myself about soul, but it was a lot of, a lot of

different little small things. Let me just describe what happens in the movie very briefly so that we can contextualize this conversation. Cause everything that you said is, I think the most interesting part of the film. So this is the story of Joe who's played by Jamie Foxx. He's a middle school music teacher and an aspiring jazz pianist. And he's on the verge of his big break as a performer. And then he dies unexpectedly.

And after he dies, he finds a way to avert the afterlife, which is known as the great beyond in this. And instead finds himself in this nether region called the great before where human souls are birthed and shaped before being transported into bodies there he meets quiet coyote that's my coyote quiet coyote we're gonna talk about the jerrys and terry trust me i love the jerrys uh so there he meets 22 who is a particularly troubled soul who's voiced by tina fey and who fails to acclimate to the experiences of the great before and is not really ready for earth and then somehow magically they are thrust back to earth reviving human joe who then has 22 put into his body and joe's soul enters the body of a cat and then the movie becomes kind of a pixar romp but everything

that happens before that and then everything that happens in the final 15 minutes of the movie is fascinating, sophisticated, philosophical, certainly an approachable version of that kind of a movie and animated and goofy and full of silly jokes about pizza and music and friendship and family. But your question about, is this a kid's movie? I just do not think it is. And I think it's really interesting that it has been identified as such. Joe dies nine minutes into this movie. Now, characters die in movies all the time, but nine minutes into the movie

is a lot for a child to handle it's really soft death it's like you barely know that he's dead i mean and it's they they ease you into it which again is like a real gift that pixar has of kind of like explaining and and literally illustrating really tough concepts for kids but it's's, it's not, it's not scary. You know, I do feel like there's always that thing of like, is there going to be any sort of like large flashing light or scary moment that I can't take my kid to? And it's not that he just kind of goes to a different place, but it is technically death. I feel like the, the other way that it's not a kid's movie is that Joe is like a middle-aged man. He's a teacher. The protagonist is a,

is a full, full grownup. And that's not the case. Usually for movies, they're about kids or, you know, toys or cars or other inanimate objects. They're not about grownups and certainly not about teachers who are the

least human grownups in a kid, like kids life. Like remember when you would like realize your teacher existed outside of school? That's upsetting. Completely agree. It is a fascinating choice. Even in the case of like Finding Nemo, for example,

it's a movie about an adult voiced by Albert Brooks, but it's a father and a fish. It's not a middle-aged teacher. And so you're right. That is really unusual for these kinds of movies and i thought like an interesting risk for the story because obviously half of the story the lead character is actually not a middle-aged man he is a soul for a period of time and then he is a cat and so you get this kind of jumble of storytelling where it's kind of shifting perspectives. But I did think that the introduction of the concept of the afterlife and the concept of souls, while pretty carefully and humorously animated and communicated, is also a lot for a child.

And maybe not a nine-year-old, but certainly a five-year-old and almost certainly a three-year-old. The idea of trying to contend with these concepts is tough. And the way to help them through that is to have more jokes and have more levity and have more beautiful things to look at and be distracted by, which I think Pixar is obviously expert at and knows how to do it better than any studio. But the weightiness of this movie I found to be completely fascinating. I agree. As you were speaking, I realized that it doesn't portray the great beyond like he never we never see what the great beyond is they never they never make it there yeah just the escalator up and for the most part it features or focuses on the great before

and how you know souls or personalities get put together and what your purpose on life is and things that are certainly like philosophical but at least apply to the living it's focused on life and not on death there's also a level of sophistication in other parts of the movie there is a very notable nicks joke speaking of sports pain in this movie that we can address a little bit later in the conversation but i mean there are jokes about like soulless investment bankers you know the music by trent resner and atticus ross who of course is the man who once sang i want to fuck you like an animal like we've now reached the place in movies where trent resner is doing the score a wonderful score. We've also just reached the place in our lives.

We've also grown up. That's right. This movie does feel like a movie for people who started with Toy Story. And Pixar is aging with us. And so is Trent Reznor, I guess. I think that's completely on point. And I talked about that when we talked about Toy Story a few months ago on the rewatchables.

It's like, that was 25 years ago when that movie came out. I have gone from pre-teendom to my late 30s watching all of these movies by all of these creators. And Pete Docter has been there almost the whole time.

He's been there for a long period of time. And so we are getting increasingly existential stories. So you pointed out that we had, we took slightly different things away from this movie, which I think is interesting to me. I saw the movie very much as about, um, how we become who we are and what controls that, and then how we cope with it and contend with it in the aftermath. And so the movie goes to great lengths to explain that there's this sort of metaphysical

experience that helps to shape what kind of a soul you have. You know, one of my favorite lines in the movie is one of the Jerry's is explaining to Joe in soul form how different personality traits come about. And at one point she's carrying five to six souls that she's getting ready to transport to Earth. And she says, you five, you be aloof. And then these become aloof souls that are sent down to Earth. And the idea of just imbuing a character trait like that, which is a critical life character trait.

If you are aloof, that impacts every experience that you have in the world. The way that you work, the way that you love, the way that you befriend people or do not, everything. And that a simple twist could determine that is fascinating. You could make the case, well, this is like a representation of how genetics work, or this is a representation of how spirituality works. It's kind of vague enough that it can turn on a dime and be perceptible to anybody who views things in any specific way. And I think that's really profound. Is it like definitive? Of course not. It's an animated movie, but it's

interesting that they're diving into it. What did you take away from the movie? What do you, how do you, what do you see its emotional ramifications being? So the thing that Joe and 22 are searching for is kind of like the last little tick box on like the earth badge is that what it's called the earth badge um it's a badge I don't know if it's the earth badge but yes it's a badge or pass um it's the thing that you need to actually get to earth and it's the last little box is like the spark or the which Joe sits through an orientation session, by the way, just like once again, uh, Pete doctors representation of the workplace a plus. Um, but he defines Joe takes away from the orientation that it's about your purpose and kind of like the, your passion,

the thing that you're meant to do in, in life. And so they spend all of the movie searching for 22s like spark and the reveal is that 22 like it's not a passion her spark is just like being ready to live like being able to appreciate life and the end there is this oh my god i'm already starting to choke up there's this montage towards the end and it's joe's back in his own body and he realizes it and it's basically the up montage and he goes through his life yeah it's in reverse and he is like kind of remembering all the small moments of wonder that like really make up a life and that is like when i started weeping and kind of when I started weeping again on this podcast. I mean, it hits differently in 2020, but it is about how you live your life. And that's

like the last scene as well of he, he gets a second chance and he's going to admire the small things. And it's what emphasis do you put on your life and what are you experiencing and what are the things you're going to remember and what are the things that you're supposed to prioritize and like what is a passion um and man i don't know whether a six-year-old can internalize that but i sure did i did too and i think one of the things that it can do even if it's not a kid's movie is it can start you thinking about something like that if you're particularly curious or or open child in a movie like this that can knock us out in the way that it did and i i had the same reaction i mean it's it's it's very similar to the up sequence it's very similar where the in the first 10 minutes of that movie that hits you like a ton of bricks and you are

just weeping and you can't believe the power and the weight and then soul is different soul is i think tonally a little bit more exploratory and kind of all over the place. It's shifting back and forth from Joe to the great before to the cat. It like, it kind of bounces around and then you get this like hammer at the end of the movie. That is everything that you're describing. That is making people think not just was I creatively successful enough?

Was I professionally successful enough? But like, did I appreciate what all of this is and was, and if I didn't, what disservice am I doing to myself? That's a, that's a, that's a huge idea. You know, that's a huge idea that is very dangerous to share so widely in 2020. And I think Pete Docter, as a filmmaker, and Ken Powers, too, who is the co-director and co-writer of this movie,

and all the people at Pixar, are, I don't really like the word fearless, but they're kind of fearless in trying to put these ideas in their movies. And if you watch other kids' movies, and I know you don't watch

as many animated movies as I do, and no disrespect to those movies, but if you look at the movies from other animated studios, they very rarely are interested in digging beyond the surface. They very rarely are interested in kind of penetrating your psyche or your feelings in any meaningful way. And in some movies, I think it can feel manipulative and I don't feel manipulated, but I feel like a genuine curiosity in the ideas that Pete Docter is going for in his movies.

And you're right. This is a partner movie to Inside Out. And if Inside Out is about how you feel, then Soul is about who you are. And man, what an absurd and fascinating thing to do in a movie. Yeah. And I just want to say, they're about things that are explaining the unknowable and just because we're adults doesn't

mean that like we understand those things any better than you do as a kid you just kind of learn to stop asking questions or you accept whatever or you know you let go of bing bong, which really sad, God, it's brutal, but, but like, but also such a, um, an, an amazing illustration of losing that sense of imagination and, and being grounded to reality quite literally. Um, but if you can explain those things to kids, you like in a, in a creative way that helps them understand you are also like providing that service to adults it's not like we don't need that information it's just that no one really tries to do it in a sensitive way i will say we talked about like well kids watch this a bit at the end of i guess the now infamous wonder woman podcast and a very nice listener did dm me to be

like my niece and nephew who are four and six were given the option of watching any movie they wanted. And they chose to rewatch Soul. And then the six-year-old requested it for a third time. And then they had to put a limit on the number of times that the six-year-old wanted to watch Soul. So there is anecdotal evidence out there that small children are connecting with this. I hope that's true. Even if it's just the cat. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure the story you just told is true. But I think with this. I hope that's true. Even if it's just the cat. Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure the story you just told is true, but I think more broadly, I hope it's true. You know, on TheRinger.com, the parent contingent that works at the company weighed in and kind of shared their experiences watching the movie and their kids' reactions to it. And I believe it was Rob Harvilla and Jason Gallagher and Katie Baker. Did I forget anybody there who weighed in on it? I think that was the triovilla and Jason Gallagher and Katie Baker did I forget anybody there who weighed in on it I think that was the trio um all wonderful people and Katie said something wrote something really interesting in that piece which is that she has used inside out

to explain things to her kids to explain why they might be mad or they might be sad or something else I mean obviously bing bong will be used in perpetuity by parents to explain why they might be mad or they might be sad or something else. I mean, obviously, Bing Bong will be used in perpetuity by parents to explain the concept of death and the concept of letting go and memory and nostalgia and what it means to be a child. And I don't know, Pete Doctor, as a filmmaker, has this, I don't know, he has this magical power to one time in every movie annihilate you. I don't think you can underestimate how strong that skill is. No, that's true. But I think he also has, again, the explanation and the sense not just of, you know, explaining

bing bong and like, here's what imagination is, or I guess like here what death is. But like, here's how your feelings work. And here's why it's okay to feel sad sometimes. And like, you need to feel sad to be happy. I mean, it is like, as a student of therapy, I think P-doctor, like we should all just have P-doctor's therapist, honestly, maybe he should just be a therapist. In terms of like you, the work of understanding your emotions and like understanding how it all gets put together with the hope that if you have some of the knowledge, you can sit with it more easily and kind of like move through life with, um,

with more peace. That is just an unbelievable gift to give to anyone, but especially small children. So I really commend him. I thought Katie also wrote something really fascinating in that same piece, which is less about emotions, but I haven't stopped thinking about it, which was about getting her kids to watch soul. Um, because she is a parent would prefer that her kids watch, you know, like movies by which she means like longer pieces of entertainment. That's like there, they need to focus on one thing for a while it requires some attention following some narrative but like her kids just want shows they just want the autofill like you know the algorithm hit the button hit the button give me another show

give me another show and so when she told her kids that they were gonna watch soul they were just like is it a show do you think think Katie's kids prefer the watch over the big picture? I mean, probably, but I, you know, I, number one, it's just really funny. Kids love Chris. They love Chris. I mean, they do love Chris. Who doesn't? Number one, it's really funny to imagine like Katie Baker, who is our age-ish, just yelling, it's a movie or nothing, which is like what she says and a thing that we yell all the time. Like, that's just really funny. Katie, all respect to you.'s like it's not her kids fault and i thought it was so fascinating because everyone is like that now that is that explains so much of how people

consume culture because we're so used to just this like hose of things coming and algorithmatized such to you know it hits this mark and then you get another one and you get another one. It's like the, that hit. Um, I, I thought that was really fascinating. Yeah. I've thought about just the children that are in my life and the, like how they would respond to this. My, my nephews are too young probably to understand it, but the things that they like are similar to what you were referencing before you know you mentioned peppa peppa the pig so there's like like paw patrol and mickey mouse like these are tiger yes daniel tiger like these are very um beautiful and sweet and nice and you know in some cases mediocre but like pretty unsophisticated children's

entertainment and they're meant to just like move the chains every week, you know, or every day. It's like, do you have 45 minutes? Let's get a couple of episodes of Paw Patrol in there and make you happy. Soul is, is much bigger.

I mean, it's whether you think it's good or not is subjective completely, but it's, it's after much more. And I, I love that animation can still do that. Frankly, in a way that a lot of live action can is one of the reasons why I cape for this stuff so often on this show is because I feel like

this is the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world making a movie about the nature of existence that is animated. It also is a story that is co-written and co-directed by a black man whose main character is a black man and is also about jazz um this is uncommon like pixar is also changing pete doctor has taken over as the chief creative officer of the company he's not just the director of monsters inc and up and inside out he's also basically the person who helps guide every project in many ways has been a story advisor on almost all their films and And he very wisely brought Ken Powers to this movie. And you see Pixar, the way that the world is trying to change and evolve and understand and become more diverse

and think beyond perspectives that are their own limited spaces into a wider world. And you can tell Pete Docter's working on this movie for a couple of years and they're not getting it right. And they need a new voice and somebody to help them figure out who Joe is and what one of the purposes of this movie is. And so they call Ken Powers the same way that they brought in Adrian Molina

to work with Lee Unkrich on Coco. And it changes the movie completely. And you get a completely different kind of a story that also kids are going to get to see. And they're going to get to see Joe playing jazz music on stage, which is something that a lot of kids are not going to get a chance to see because that's not an art form that we prize in our culture right now. And it's a, it's a, it's a great thing. And it's also, I mean, you were using a lot of adjectives to describe kind of like the narrative nature of, um, of soul earlier. And we didn't say improv, improvisatory, but it is like this storytelling, the narrative arc does take on a little bit of jazz because jazz is a part of the story. And I mean, that's, that's just cool

structurally. That's like good movie making, but it is again, not how kids usually or adults really at this point, watch movies and stories. Again, we're used to like the, okay, is it a show? Is there, there's 30 minutes, what's the next arc? And kind of following and like learning how to, to watch something, but also how to, you know, value things in a different way, like in different pacing, it is very much a part of that decision to, to involve jazz and to involve Ken Powers. It's cool. Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, we've talked about him a couple of times on this show.

He obviously is the playwright behind One Night in Miami. He's having a huge year. You know, he's a guy who was a former journalist. He's talked a few times. There've been a few pieces written about him. I think his last job was editing the homepage at Yahoo. And then he set out, he had tried to be a screenwriter,

it sounds like early in his career, and then returned to it and said, I just have to go for it and I have to try this. And he started writing plays and started writing screenplays again. And he's now having this moment of incredible success. It's a great thing for him. I'm really mad at him for the way that he slandered the Knicks, but I know that that was coming from a place of love. Would you like to speak to him directly or just to speak on it?

I admire his work and I know he's a Knicks fan. And that's why I know that joke was so good because he's clearly a fan and is in pain. And the only way to describe what's been happening with the Knicks for the last 20 plus years is that there is a curse that is going down of some kind that is metaphysically created. But, you know, there's also like great little stuff. All the sequence in the barbershop, the Charles Mingus is to be playing as Joe's ringtone. There's all these little things that like you just know those are coming from him. Those are not coming from the Pixar machine. And that's great. They like more studios should be doing that that's a way to kind of um increase inclusion in a meaningful way that helps the story and doesn't feel perfunctory or tacked on

like it's it changed the movie and it made the movie better so that was very exciting to see you know i think that this is a movie with like fine vocal performances, maybe not like the greatest of all time. It's obviously a stacked cast. Jamie Foxx, Tina Fey, the Jerrys and Terry are pretty are pretty great. Alice Braga and Richard Iowati and West Studi and Rachel House as Terry, who is interesting. A couple of people have compared me to terry lately because you know it's sort of like all the spreadsheets and stuff yeah and the accounting yeah it's tough it's a bad that's tough for you um but you know the other thing i thought about

this movie is uh it's really the first pixar movie i could think of think of that takes place like in a city and and in the real world. Usually these movies are in the ocean or they're toys or even if they're inhuman. Even Coco is kind of hyper-magical. It's about the land

of the dead and not about Mexico. There was something kind of real about this version of New York city. I know that sounds silly to say, but do you know what I'm saying? No, I think you're right.

I was trying to think up, I guess it's like the city grows up around the house and then the house goes away. So they leave it. No, it felt like very of New York and even the way that the Graham Norton character, by the way, loved the Graham Norton performance. That was delightful. Yeah.

I just, I was like, I know that voice. Um, he shows up at 14th and 7th and that very specific, like knowable real world location with the sign, um, you know, and the pizza, it definitely, I think it's just more in the real world than most of these movies, even Toy Story, which is like a house and kids. It's like, it's very specific. And you definitely feel as nostalgic. That was another thing of just kind of like, he's remembering all of these very specific New York things in that last montage. And if you have ever lived in New York or ever want to, it got very emotional in 2020. It did. I think the animation as usual

is great in the film in general. I think like the difficulty of making these abstract ideas manifest and real is a big challenge. And they do an amazing job as well. Like no one ever criticizes the animation in Pixar movies because it's always superb.

But it's, it's worth pointing out. Yeah. And it just has its own look now. It's like, it's funny at what emotions look like in my head or what kind of like the, the paranormal or the beyond, like it's just like all Pixar.

It's like, they've effectively illustrated this other unknowable world to me, which is like a massive achievement. And that to me is like, I know I say a lot about animation and it doesn't always speak to me, but to be able to actually realize these things that are unrealizable, it is magic. And that's when it comes alive to me. So this is a terrific film. Incredible music, incredible animation, brilliant ideas.

I care about this more than you do, but all-time Pixar. My reaction to it is that it's somewhere, you know, kind of circling the top 10, if not quite penetrating the top 10. In a year like this, it was a real bomb for me. I don't know if it's in that, you know, toy story inside out Coco Wally, you know, up, you know, sphere. It's like maybe the ninth or 10th best,

but I don't know. What are you, what are your, I know you're, I know you're an inside out. Yeah. Well, I'm just like,

I am partial to the P doctor of it all. Because like I said, these things make more sense to me as an adult. Believe it or not, like, you know, I was 10 when Toy Story came out, but I didn't see Toy Story in 1995. So like, I don't know why. Good movie. Great movie.

But when I came to these movies in my life, the movies that speak to the adults as well as the kids, and they're kind of like growing up with you are the ones that resonate for me. So I'm more partial to this than say to cars, which I've never seen and which I only recently learned was set in the US. I thought it was like the Grand Prix. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for pointing out that we have overlooked the Route 66 storytelling style. But the thing with cars is it can't be in the real world because the cars have eyes. So that's crazy. Never seen it. Babysat some kids

who really loved it. And, you know, that's important too. So for me, Soul is slightly higher than just because I am not really looking at these from a kid's eyes.

But, you know, I understand that that Toy Story and WALL-E are important to a lot of people here's my thing with this movie this movie should win best picture i don't i'm not saying i'm not saying that this is the best movie of the year i don't think it's the best movie of the year it's close but i don't think it's the best but i do think that it should win because this would do a lot for the academy because this would do a lot for the academy

and it would do a lot for the oscars and it would do a lot for storytelling in general because this is an accessible but challenging movie which i think the oscars needs to reward on a regular basis it's a story told by a great studio with great history but also features a story of inclusion. It's beautifully made. All of the craft's work is top of the line. And the other options I don't find as appealing narratively for the Academy Awards. So right now it feels like the showdown that is shaping up is Nomadland versus Trial of the Chicago 7 versus Mank. Maybe that will change.

Maybe there will be a movie. Maybe One Night in Miami will make a surge. Maybe something like we don't necessarily see coming, like Promising Young Woman makes a surge and a movie that speaks to the moment. This is the movie, though. That speaks to the moment. This is the movie that is the most internal movie of the year. And this has been a year of internal examination of being shut in and trying to figure out what is going on. And only three animated movies have ever been nominated for best picture

beauty and the beast up and toy story three, notable that Pete doctors up was nominated. An animated film has never even wanted a screenplay category. Animated movies are historically overlooked at the Oscars. You can lock in that Soul is going to win Best Animated Feature. But aside from that, I noticed that Gold Derby has Soul coming in around number 10 right now in its odds for Best Picture. What do you think about my proposition here? In terms of the narrative of 2020, 2021cars great yeah sure i i mean i i think of the things

that we have seen it is far more accomplished than most anything else and i i agree that it's interesting to talk about i mean i would much prefer like this movie be the animated movie that we're talking about when we're doing like how does the oscars deal with animated movies as opposed to like was that my voice i no i'll let you know when i'm doing your voice i just okay for the most part that's just kind of like this the primal voice of annoyance that i hear in my head you know um a But I think this is kind of the best case to talk about what animation can do and the history of this category and like this type of movie in the Oscars.

You know, it would also be fitting that I don't think it's the best Pixar movie. And it's true that the best thing doesn't always win the Oscar. It's usually like something that's past due and representative but not like a representative of the genre or the thing but not like the best example and i you know i inside out is is the movie for forever and ever but it wasn't even nominated for best picture well it's it's interesting that up and Toy Story 3, which I think in the last 10 years, are probably the two best along with Coco and Inside Out. And Coco and Inside Out were not nominated. And it does seem like the Academy has kind of moved away again from do not participate in as meaningful a way in animated films as they do in other films that are shot

that feature actors in them. So there is, I don't want to say necessarily, there is some resentment, I think among some Academy members towards animation, there is some feeling of a threat that a movie like this can provide that they will somehow be replaced by this kind of storytelling. I don't really think that's the case but i understand those feelings i think that that

would be a shame though if that was something that was standing in the way now look i i really like nomadland and i think we're gonna talk about nomadland i don't even know how people are gonna see that movie for example like that's a it's a searchlight release that is opening in theaters in february And then what? I don't know. Like, I don't know how there can be a conversation around that film, which is quite beautiful. But Trial of the Chicago 7 is like the Oscar baitiest thing.

And the fact that it is like rising back up in the standings now that we've kind of seen everything and people are like, actually, maybe we should reward this. We like Sorkin. We like the story it's telling. I'm the right age to be voting for a movie like Trial of the Chicago 7 etc etc as Mank is starting to fall in the standings

but I just think I just think so I just think this would be nice can we have one nice thing? If it's not nominated then we have some real problems listen if this is nominated if this is not nominated and it's like Promising Young Woman

and Trial of Chicago 7, we're not acknowledging like what's working in movies in 2020. It's really tough. Why do you think this movie was made available for free quote unquote on Disney Plus as opposed to the premium tier?

Because I don't think that it's the play it five times kid movie that say i don't know what like ice princess 2 let me tell you opening disney plus which i don't do very often to re-watch this film and let's see in some of the other options also just like trying to find inside out it's like what is going on here in this place just a lot of like pink furry animals in dresses who i guess like talk um and that's great i want the children of the united states and you know territories abroad to be happy but um i want the children of the united states and territories abroad to be happy who were you replaced by a machine did you get an

amanda bot for christmas like i want like the kids well i want kids everywhere to be happy it's like it's like really the only thing that matters is that like children be happy and if the kids mission statement that's in the in in the santa claus it says i want children territories abroad to be happy. Well, I was just trying to, like all the kids who have access to Z Plus, which is like limited internationally right now, but rolling out. I don't know. Like it's all, it's corporations all the way down. Okay.

Thank you, Bob J. Peck. But I have a picture of him if anyone needs it. But it's great if they're happy, but I don't know that with the exception of the wonderful listener who wrote and her two very advanced niece and nephews, I don't know that kids are like, play it again, play it again. And so if you're doing a premium release, you're, I think, banking on the fact that the kids are going to want to play it again. Otherwise, it's just like a nice addition to your library. Well, I think that just about does it. Kids are going to want to play it again. Otherwise, it's just like a nice addition to your library. Well, I think that just about does it. Do you feel that you have exercised your demons on this late end of year podcast?

I guess so. I don't know. I mean, it's raw nerve endings, I suppose, which here we all are at the end of 2020. I like everyone else will be glad when this is over. Do you think we're going to have a good 2021? I can't like really bear to think about that. I'm doing one day at a time in 2021. What about on the big picture?

Will we have a good podcast here? Yes, we will. What will be some of the highlights? Can you project into the future? I need to go out in some good spirit here. I don't know. I liked an animated movie and it made me start crying on a podcast. Like, what else do you want?

You're right. That's the greatest gift that I could give you. I told all the nerds on the internet to go read some books. And then I talked about how I, an animated movie made me cry. And then I actually cried. So I experienced it all.

That's the best gift that I can give you. And if anyone wants to start a book club in 2021, hit me up. I'm touched. This has been a dog shit year. I'm ready to get on to 2021, though. As I said last time, I appreciate you, Amanda. Thank you for everything you've given me on the big picture this year thank you of course to bobby wagner bob you crushed it

this year good job buddy and uh we will actually see you guys next year hopefully talking about movies that we like that touch us hopefully there are more animated movies to discuss in 2021 as well see you guys then.