The Big Picture - The Genius of 'Uncut Gems.' Plus: the Safdie Brothers! | The Big Picture

Episode Date: December 26, 2019

This is how the Safdies win. Sean shares the 12 highly specific things he loves (with spoilers!) about the New York brothers' new film (0:55). Then, Josh and Benny Safdie join Sean to talk about the long road to its creation (16:04).  Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Josh and Benny Safdie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Over the holidays and into the new year, we'll still be publishing new shows to keep you up to speed with the NFL playoff race, the NBA, and awards season. We've published some great episodes in the month of December, including two rewatchables on Happy Gilmore and The Godfather Part II, Chris interviewed Watchmen showrunner Damon Lindelof on The Watch, and the Ringer NBA show ranked the top 25 players of the 2019-2020 season so far. Lastly, happy holidays from The Ringer. I'm Sean Fennessy and this is The Big Picture a conversation show about keeping these gems uncut

the conversation is with myself and that is right we've waited long enough, it's time to dig into Uncut Gems. The Safdie brothers' brilliant, relentless, hysterical, gorgeous, melancholy, and for me at least, deeply relatable masterpiece. Later in the show, I'll have a deep dive with the Safdies, Josh and Benny, into the long road to getting this thing off the ground,

the making of the movie, and pretty much everything in between. Plus, we'll do a little Knicks talk. Last time I saw the guys, they were on the show two years ago, and they were telling me about the movie. And in fact, they were so excited to talk about the movie that they started talking about it on mic before things had been fully settled. A lot has changed since then. Hopefully, you're going out to see it on Christmas. It is a beautiful Christmas movie. And I thought we'd switch things up a little bit on the show because

of that. So before the interview, I'd like to just talk a little briefly about the things that I love best about Uncut Gems. First and foremost, we got to talk about Adam Sandler. Adam Sandler, obviously one of my favorite actors. If you heard me on the rewatchables Happy Gilmore, you know what admiration I have for him. Big talking point of this movie has been Adam Sandler going serious and how this is a thing that he does every 10 or 15 years to remind us that he's interested in serious things. People pointing to Punch Drunk Love or Funny People movies like that. The truth is he takes these roles on a little bit more frequently than you'd imagine. There's a bunch of movies that we don't talk about that aren't

really very good, but that feature Sandler trying to do dramatic work. Reign Over Me, the 9-11 drama, The Cobbler, the sort of famously ill-conceived Tom McCarthy movie. Men, Women, and Children, Jason Reitman's movie, which really came and went. Spanglish, James L. Brooks' dramedy about a man in crisis. These are all his attempts to do serious work. Sandler isn't just doing dopey comedies. The reason that Uncut Gems is so right for him, though, is that it features so many of the things that he does well on that Happy Gilmore Rewatchables. The Safdies and Bill and I talked about Adam as sociopath,

as crazy person, as person with pent up rage and confusion and aspiration and a singularly driven focus to accomplish. That is what Howard Ratner in Uncut Gems is like too. He is a man on a mission and he's willing to break all reasonable rules of society to get his mission accomplished. It's such a thrilling performance. It's such a uniquely cool vehicle for him that that is by far the number one thing about it that I want to talk about. Secondly, it's a movie about gambling. It's not exactly a rounders-esque story of gambling. It's a movie about sports gambling. No movies are good at sports gambling. Every movie that wants to do sports gambling invariably makes the bets too big, makes the stakes too high, makes them too low, misunderstands how to do things.

This is the first movie I've ever seen that really perfectly communicates what a parlay bet is. In fact, it's the absolute crux of the movie. I won't spoil anything by talking about it. And if you love to watch basketball and think about the gambling possibilities, or if you're a degenerate who actually gambles on sports, you will see that this is really the pinnacle of a movie that is attempting to address this issue in our lives. Probably not since Robert Altman's California split have I seen something that cares about these ideas and the people that are consumed by gambling in this way. Third thing, the New York movie lineage. The Safdies obviously are New Yorkers. I am a New Yorker. We are obsessed with movies about and set in New York. This movie feels like it is in that

succession train of movies like Sweet Smell of Success, like Dog Day Afternoon, like Hannah and Her Sisters, like Wild Style, Do the Right Thing, After Hours, King of New York, you know, Abel Ferrara, Martin Scorsese, Spike Lee. These filmmakers understand the city and they understand the energy of the city, which is fast and weird and uncaring about other people. It is easy to move through the city and not think about anybody but yourself, even though you are surrounded by humanity. That's one of my favorite things about this story. Fourth thing, the NBA. We mentioned sports gambling already, but there are also vanishingly few movies that really get basketball. It's shocking to think of, but count on your hand how many great NBA movies there are. There are hardly any. We're not talking about like Eddie or Celtic Pride or something like that. This is a serious movie that imagines the NBA in 2012 and imagines Kevin Garnett as a fulcrum of that league

and a significant part of our story. Obviously, Kevin Garnett, even though it's 2019, has not aged very much, and he is incredibly credible as Kevin Garnett. And I think he's giving probably the best NBA player performance of all time. Bobby, any other standout NBA player performances that you've ever seen in a movie? No, I mean, there's not very many good ones.

Yeah, they're mostly played for jokes, and they're not great. And it's funny to hear the Safdies talk about how they cast this part, because once upon a time, it was going to be Amari Stoudemire. Then for a minute, it was going to be Kobe Bryant. And then for a long time, it was going to be Joel Embiid. I do like the idea of Joel Embiid as a comic actor at some point. I actually think that he might have taken away from it. You think so?

Like, I think he would have been in a different movie just based on his public persona. Maybe he could have gotten really intense and maybe he couldn't have gotten really serious. But from what I see of Joel Embiid, he's kind of like this big goofball dude. I agree. And KG is like really intense. And this movie is so tight and stressful that I feel like sometimes I'd be like, when is Joel Embiid going to crack a joke? And it would never come. I think that's a great point. I completely agree. And it's pretty shocking how great he is in the movie, but it really, really works well.

In addition to KG, the rest of the supporting cast is pretty, pretty breathtaking. It's a fine mix of hugely experienced, beloved figures, a lot of New York-esque figures, like Eric Boghossian, like Judd Hirsch, people that you remember from television or from movies in the 80s and 90s. People like Lakeith Stanfield, who's kind of quietly emerging as

maybe one of the most interesting actors in the world right now. Obviously, people know him as Darius from Atlanta, and he has a significant role in Knives Out this year. His part is fundamental to Uncut Gems, and he has a kind of a very low-toned swagger that is essential to the movie. But part of its genius is also the untrained actors I'll say that make appearances in the movie. The Weeknd gives an entirely credible performance as The Weeknd,

especially circa 2012 when he was in his high dirtbag phase, first coming into the consciousness. The big, big, big homie Mike Francesa plays a bookie and bobby did francesa work for you absolutely gigantic stuff incredible just a just a huge mood from from mike there's a whole small like cottage industry sliver of just conversation about francesa specifically in the movie i i saw people arguing with him on twitter about how he said he would never curse

publicly but he curses in the film. I'm thankful for it. One of the other great parts of the movie, and our boss Bill Simmons has mentioned this before, but Julia Fox is just a real discovery. She plays Howard Ratner's love interest. And there's a tremendous profile of her in the New York Times that identifies her as a very specific kind of New York woman raised in Yorkville with a kind of Long Island attitude that is very familiar to a guy like me. She's very, very good. And of course, the iconic Adina

Menzel, who feels like the mother of so many people I grew up with on Long Island and is really nailing her part as Howard's soon-to-be ex-wife. Key part of this movie is Daniel LePatton's score. Those of you who are fans of One No Trick's Point Never know his work. He is a kind of ambient instrumentalist who creates a kind of convulsive music. His music hurts my ears and soothes it at the same time. In this movie, the music is more new age. It's much more, as the Safdies would say, about erupting chakras. There's something kind of spiritual going on here, even though it is propulsive and it keeps the movie in that kind of anxiety-inducing feeling that we've been hearing people talk about ever since it was first announced. It's a huge, huge accomplishment. It's definitely among my five favorite scores of

the year, and it's worth checking out. The other thing that's really cool about a lot of the Safdie Brothers movies is because it feels like this very handmade, on-the-go feeling, there's just a lot of regular guys, a lot of non-actors, a lot of people who work in the Diamond District, a lot of people who are gamblers, a lot of people who just come out of nowhere. One of the big heavies of the movie, I won't spoil it, but it's just a guy that they found in Paramus, New Jersey, who's just like a local tough who wanted to be an actor. And he's giving arguably the most menacing performance in a movie in the last few years. I won't say anything more than that. Darius Kanji's cinematography, the way that this movie looks is, it's certainly a step up for the Safdies. It's in keeping with the kinds of

movies that they've made before. But Darius Kanji, for those of you who are not familiar with him, is a 64-year-old man from Tehran whose background as a filmmaker, he's shot some of the great auteurist movies of the last 25 years. He has had a partnership with David Fincher for a long time. This is the guy who shot Seven. This is a guy who shot Panic Room. He also has worked with people like Michael Haneke. He's worked with Wong Kar-wai. He's worked with Neil Jordan, Roman Polanski, Bernardo Bertolucci. I mean, this is really one of the most accomplished

shooters in the history of movies. He shot Okja in 2017. He shot The Lost City of Z for James Gray. The idea of him working with such a young and inexperienced crew like the Safdies, who are both in their sort of early to mid-30s, is really exciting. And he brings a confident camera, a camera that is not afraid to get too close to Howard's face, but also can give you a little bit of sense of scope in the frame.

I really, really love what he did there. Similarly, the editing of the movie, which works kind of in concert with Darius's shooting, is done by Ronald Bronstein and Benny Safdie. And Bronstein, who has been a co-writer and a collaborator and an actor for the Safdies over the years, is essential to their mix. And that relentless pace and the anxiety and the terror and the joy that you feel as you're watching the movie, a lot of that comes from Bronstein and Benny's editing. I'm very curious to see if this film gets nominated for best editing. I feel like there's an outside chance because I can sense in the community a lot of admiration for what they did here. Can I quickly say something about the sound editing too? Absolutely. I don't know if

you have that on your list. I don't, but it's a great thing to talk about. I can't stress how hard it is to sequence the way that they cut different voices in when different people are talking. There is so much talking over each other in this movie. It is one of the most confusing sounding movies that I've ever heard or listened to. And as someone who edits vocals for a living, to hear it and to understand all of the work and the different craftspeople that had to have their hands on it for you to be able to understand even who's talking in a scene. Like I'm thinking of if you go to see the movie, a scene where Lakeith's character is trying to quit and Adam Sandler is opening the gems from the fish.

And to just understand as the phone is ringing, as there's people yelling in the hallway, as he's trying to quit and yelling at Sandler, to know who's talking, to have that clarity, that sound editing is just, it's astonishing. The Safdies tell this great story about submitting the ADR script for all the lines that they're going to fill in for the film after the production has wrapped in post. And usually something like that takes up maybe one, two, three pages. But the packet they submitted was 65 pages and it included a series of speaking roles that the producers had never heard of

before because what they wanted to do was essentially create characters who would be doing crosstalk over other characters who were doing crosstalk in the movie. You know, as a New Yorker, that's not an unfamiliar experience. If you've ever been in the Diamond District, if you've ever been in one of the showrooms like Howard has in the movie, you know that there are a lot of customers and one is talking to one person working in the store and the other is talking to another person working in the store. And that is what modern life is. And we don't really think about those other people when we're walking around a store and we're having a conversation. We just keep moving on with our life on a day-to-day basis.

That gives the movie a kind of hyper-reality that I think it makes it really effective. It's a great point, Bobby. Yeah. And I never felt like I didn't know what's going on either. Exactly. It's not confusing, which is, even though it might be intense, there's nothing baffling about what you're seeing up there. I also just wrote down here, this is the most Jewish movie ever made. I am not Jewish, so I don't know if I can confirm that, but it certainly feels that way.

The Ringer's Noah Malala is celebrating it as that. He certainly is. So we'll credit Noah with being able to confirm my opinion. One other thing that I really love about the movie is getting to watch filmmakers in real time elevate. We just talked on this show about Greta Gerwig going from the big first film to the next film. The Safdies have been on this journey for the last, I don't know, 10, 12 years, and they're finding bigger and bigger canvases to paint on, and they're making better and better movies. And this is my favorite part of doing this podcast, of being obsessed with movies, of getting invested in the careers of the people who make them.

If you look at their films, it's not just Good Time that spring-loaded them into this experience. It's Heaven Knows What before that. And it's Lenny Cook before that. And it's Daddy Longlegs before that. And The Pleasure of Being Robbed being robbed i would encourage you if you have not seen these movies to seek them out because it's the it's the makings of a couple of really what i think will be a couple of really important people and it's it's nice to see the movie getting attention this way the last and final thing if you have not seen the movie i would encourage you to not listen to this but um the ending this is a movie that in maybe in stark contrast to some of that little women conversation that amanda and i had is unafraid to compromise but the ending. This is a movie that, maybe in stark contrast to some of that little women conversation

that Amanda and I had, is unafraid to compromise. And when Howard Ratner, at the end of the movie, catches a bullet and his life is over, you realize that even though it's upsetting and we love Adam Sandler

and we don't want to see Adam Sandler killed on screen and we want Howard to win, and even though he has just won this incredible victory with this triple parlay bet, he has to die. He has to suffer. He has to atone for the sins that he's committed throughout the movie. There is a morality to this movie that is really meaningful. And it's a cliche to call something like this Shakespearean or like a Greek tragedy, but it really does ultimately aspire to those heights. And I was moved by it and I loved it.

And it has actually paid off a couple more times I've seen it. So if you haven't seen Uncut Gems, I'm sorry to have spoiled it for you, but if you have, I hope you enjoy this conversation that I'm about to have with Josh and Benny Safdie. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Masterclass. Masterclass lets you learn from the best with exclusive access to online classes taught by masters of their craft. You can learn how to make films by watching Martin Scorsese do it, or learn how to play poker by watching the great Phil Ivey explain hand play. With over 60 different instructors across tons of categories,

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Get unlimited access to every Masterclass, and as a listener, you get 15% off the annual all-access pass. So just go to masterclass.com slash big picture. That's masterclass.com slash big picture for 15% off Masterclass. Delighted to be rejoined by Josh and Benny Safdie. Guys, thanks for coming back. Of course. Oh, thank you.

So Uncut Gems is here. Now, last time you were here on the show, you teased the movie. I did more than teasing. You revealed maybe a little too much. Yes. People have actually pointed that out. In hindsight, I'm like, wow, I can't believe I did that. You know what it was?

When you spend 10 years working on a project, you kind of get stuck in this kind of hustle and I think that and I was you know sitting with you we were talking basketball we were talking genre we were talking film and I think what I think my mind just went into like like you know the the wires just connected I was like just say just tell him the entire movie forgetting that I was recording. Thank God I didn't spoil too many things. There are still a lot of surprises,

but maybe you guys can walk me through basically, what has it been? Two plus years since I last saw you in this capacity. Mm-hmm.

And some things changed. Mm-hmm. Adam was not on board at the time. No, he wasn't. Kevin Garnett was not on board at the time. No.

Who was? Was Joel Embiid on board at the time? I don't remember. I think you were talking Am at the time what who was was joel and beat on board at the time i don't remember i think you were talking amari still amari yeah actually i do remember because we did a um i think we did a did we do table reading was that while we were out here sasha baron cohen was that what it was you had mentioned that to me after that's probably what we were we were out here for no it wasn't while we were out here no i don't remember but it was you know there was a lot of iterations of the movie you know we went to we went and we started writing the the movie in 2009 uh had the first draft that we started working on me benny and ronnie uh 2010

how old are you are you like in your early 20s this time yeah our first movie benny our first movie i was 24 he was 22 it's funny because I'll always be like, oh yeah, when we were young, it's like, you're still young. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

We were really hustling. But, yeah, and we went to, we always wanted it to be Sandler and we went to Sandler in 20, I think 12-ish, 2011 probably.

I got to get the actual email. I'm going to find it. And it was a pass. It was just like, who the hell, and also like, who the hell did we think we were? 12-ish, 2011 probably. I got to get the actual email. I'm going to find it. And it was a pass. It was just like, who the hell? And also like, who the hell did we think we were? We can get Adam Sandler. I mean, what did you, you done Daddy Longlegs at this point?

The irony is that's one of Sandler's favorite movie of ours. It was just. So like, but he just, we couldn't. It had a long life. Daddy Longlegs had a strange life because it was born in the, like it had another name and then we switched the name and then it like, then it got nominated for a spirit award. So it, it. Well, it premiered at like the height of the recession in Japan. Right.

And then, uh, and then it went. And it went back and played in Sundance under a new title. That's right. And then, so that was like six months later. Because we were told American History, the IFC was like, we won't release this movie if it's called Go Get Some Rosemary. So we're like, all right. Not going to happen.

So we were, and I actually prefer the title Daddy Long Legs anyway. Either way, it was a long, so we thought maybe we can kind of spin whatever. Well, we were like, you had the perception of momentum. Exactly. Because like we, we like Ronnie won Ronnie. I remember Ronnie won a Gotham award against Jennifer Lawrence. Ron Bronson. Yeah.

He was the lead actor of daddy long legs. And he was up against, uh, Jennifer Lawrence for breakthrough actor at the Gotham awards. Crazy. And it was a joke to us. We were just like, you don't even, let's not even go.

And, uh, Josh had his camera. I brought a camera, I brought a camera, 35 millimeter camera. And I had this whole plan. It was going to be a great gift from my buddy,

Ronnie. I was going to take a picture of the moment they announced Jennifer Lawrence's name and it was going to be called loser. And I was going to be a great gift from my buddy, Ronnie. I was going to take a picture of the moment they announced Jennifer Lawrence's name and it was going to be called loser. And I was going to frame it big. So I snapped the picture of Ronnie at the moment they announced the winner, but they said his name and the look on his face is unbelievable. It's a great photo. It's a photo. Well, because you and I somehow like you helped my update my phone once. Now I got all your contact photos. i lost that anyway uh the uh anyway so he won like surprise he surprisingly won that award and then we got not we won the

cassavetes award for it a year later so this movie's like and we just tried to take like the main character in gems we just tried to take any modicum of success be a critical because certainly wasn't financial but uh and and kind of parlay it on itself to try to kind of see something bigger through. And Gems was always that big thing that we wanted to see through this movie that we knew was a big film and it couldn't have been skimmed on. It needed a movie star in that main role.

I remember when I had the previous movie that I made, which was like an accident. So it was like, I didn't even really know and now you got to go and show it and it was this thing that wasn't even supposed to be a feature film uh and i remember getting all these emails and stuff from like agencies and stuff and i was like what is this garbage leave me alone and i never responded to any of it and uh and then the same thing happened that long as but then we're like oh in order to make this movie gems, we actually have to, you know, play ball a little bit and get involved in these type of things. And we, yeah, we got an agent and then we tried to kind of set up this movie because it had a lot of genre elements into it and had, you know, it's a Diamond District world. So it was expensive.

Just the props were expensive. And yes, we and we thought, you know, we had this kind of crazy character who was dreaming big who you know uh was in these absurd scenarios and we knew the only person who could really ground that was sandler so we went out to sandler first person we got that pass and again i don't think we had deserved the right to even ask adam sandler in 2011 to be in our movie so we got the pass from his team and then that sent us into a, all right, well, that's not going to work.

It's like Ed Wood in the movie, Ed Wood, where it's like, well, if you don't like that, I got, you know, maybe you like the next one.

And it's like, it's you, the, we would follow our interests. Like, okay, we can't make jams. We were interested,

like basketball was a part of that. Somebody approached us with all these tapes from 2001 about a basketball player named Lenny Cook. And it's like, okay, let's just do that. We'll make a documentary about Lenny Cook. it it was also a job. Of course yeah we needed something to do and we're like oh it'll take six months like four years later we're still editing and

filming with him but. Yeah I mean that that that job I remember like negotiating our contract with the producer Lenny Cook is like all right well we can pay our rent if we can dip this and then like you that that our fee ended up stretching over three years. It was like we get 20 cents an hour. But that's the thing is I can't picture gems without it being in the arc of Lenny. Heaven.

And then heaven. Of course. And then good time. Me neither. They're part of an arc in my mind. For sure. And then Black Balloon

is done and slipped in there too. We made this short film Black Balloon. Andy Spade hit us up in the middle of the night and he's like, and John's gone. And he's like, hey, you know the red balloon, let's make the make the black balloon then we took that sentence and won and it was like all right let's not try

to take that and let's go to a different actor and we ended up uh constantly trying to reshift the movie to just make it makeable and uh or feasible so we were down the line with harvey kytel for a while we wrote up the character he He was more aged up, aged up, sorry, aged up the character. And he was more akin to the initial inspiration, which was this person who our dad worked for in the Diamond District. And then we and Lenny Cook happened. And then and then I was deep in the Diamond District doing research. And I met this young woman who had a transient job there. And I didn't know she was a street kid at all at the time. And I ended up getting totally enveloped in her world and the toxic romance of both her boyfriend and also her drug addiction. And then that kind of played into parts of the movie of Gems that then gets written out in a weird way. And then we ended – I remember after Heaven Knows What, we did a page one rewrite where we basically like not we didn't throw the entire script in the garbage we focused it on howard because the first version was kind of and we and we took all these new yeah ideas of research from the modern day but it was like the first version was more like episodic where it had a

lot of other characters that you could follow in and out of the world and this was just this is howard's movie so let's make it about him and I remembered there was one moment uh in this in the movie uh when you see there's a moment that takes place and that's kind of a pinnacle moment with the with that involves a vestibule and uh I remember coming up with that idea in this McDonald's uh in in Brooklyn with Ronnie uh and and just being like okay that now we have this new version of the movie let's go out and try to make this. And then that's when we went down the line pretty heavily with Sacha Baron Cohen. And we were doing table reads. And I remember at one point we did this bizarro,

bizarro version of Gems. We did a table read. It was here. We did it. We did it at Sunset Gars. It's crazy. No same studio. It was with Sacha, who was, again, he's amazing.

And we're huge fans of his. Who else was there? It was John David Washington, who we were really, he's amazing. And we're huge fans of his. Who else was there? It was John David Washington, who we were really into. For Lakeith's part? Yeah. He was actually, JD was playing a handful of characters, but he ended up, he was the Damani role. A$AP Ferg.

A$AP Ferg was there. And he was, there's a character named Privilege, which ended up becoming the weekend role. Amari. Amari came through. Tom Sizemore. Tom Sizemore was kind of the Bogosian role, but Tom was

a lot during the table read because he would improvise during the table read and start acting with J.D. Washington next to him. But they're not in the scene. He's not in the scene, but he was like, it became 3D. It's like, oh, you're in the scene because you're sitting next to me. So yeah,

remember that? He would just work him into it. So this is after Good Time. This is 17 scene because you're sitting next to me. So, yeah, you remember that? Like, you just work him into it. So, this is after Good Time. This is 17? This was after Heaven Knows What. Yes, before Good Time. So, we were out here and that's actually when we met with Rob for the first time. After every movie that we finished, we're like, okay, let's roll whatever success or anything and try and make gems. Yeah, because I remember Rob hitting me up because he saw the trailer for Heaven Knows What.

And he's like, whatever you're doing next, I want to be a part of it. And I was like, well, we're trying to do this movie we've been chasing for now, I think at that point it was five years. And you're not right for any of the roles. I'm sorry. And he's like, well, let's meet up in L.A. when you're done. I was like, actually, we'll be there because we're doing a reading for Gems. And it was basically like a reading for Sasha to kind of hear. And we had never done anything like that before.

And it was I read all the direction. And Benny was a character in the movie at the time. Benny's character in Good Time. That's a big thing. Yeah, my character in Good Time was actually in a version of Gems and for a long time. Were you trying to make an expanded universe? Well, what happened was it was the same guy. He had a similar disability, but Howard kind of took him in

after his mother died. So he played like this kind of father figure to him. And when we didn't make Gems, it's like, oh, well, what do we do with this character? Because there's something Ronnie and I had worked on a lot before that for another movie. And then we put-

The character you developed. The character. And then we're like, okay, then he was in Gems. And then when Gems wasn't happening, we're like, okay, then he was in gems. And then when gems wasn't happening, we're like, Oh, we have this amazing character.

We have to use him somewhere. And then he found his way into good time. And then when he's in good time, of course he doesn't need to be in gems anymore. So a lot of his character actually ended up in Julia's character. Weirdly enough. So I want to round out the rest of the table. Cause it was fascinating to think of.

I actually found a picture of it recently. It was Sasha. It was Joey Ferrara, Turtle. It was Legendary Knicks fan? Yes, legendary. A$AP Ferg, Isla Fisher, JD Washington,

Amari, Tom Sizemore, and Benny. I feel like there was someone else that I'm forgetting. Riley Keogh. Riley Keogh. Yes. Riley Keogh was reading Julia's part. Oh, wow. Yeah. Was Isla Fisher Idina's part?

Correct, yeah. And it was interesting. It was a very, it was the first time we'd ever done anything like that. So it was very helpful for us. And Sasha, when we were going to go down the road with Sasha, we were going to do, create like kind of like, not Borat, but like what is the realistic version of a borat and how does he live in the diamond district as a jeweler uh and he had a voice that he kind of sculpted anyway so we went down the road and then scorsese saw scorsese and emma koskoff tillinger koskoff saw heaven knows what and responded to it

and loved it and they wanted to know what we're working on next we sent them the gem script and then they attached themselves and then that broadened our profile big time the project and that was very helpful uh and and um then at some point jonah after that i think jonah got interested jonah yeah exactly jonah was interested and we were like oh this could be great to work with a contemporary appear and like we and he's one of the great actors and really get deep. But then we had a really hard time figuring out a way to write the character younger. And we kept trying to stick with these concepts that were to us so central to the movie. And then it just so happened that then Jonah got very interested in directing and then he made his film. And then the timing just didn't work anymore and we were left back.

And I think around actually 20, before we went to Sasha, we went back to Sandler around 2014 trying to use the any notice, like any notice that we received on Heaven Knows What to try to go back to Sandler. We got it. I remember we got a he's unavailable during the dates that you want. And we're like, oh, we'll push the dates. Like, no, no, the dates that you want. And we're like, oh, we'll push the dates. They're like, no, no, no, he's just unavailable. And we're like, oh, okay, we got you. Sorry, he's not. That's an improvement from hard no.

Yes, exactly. Well, the first time, I don't even think we even heard like a no. I think it was just ignored. It was just, but Sandy, his manager, remembers that first draft and he actually remembers it. Like he remembers parts of it.

And that's cool that he remembers ignoring us so i i feel like sandler wouldn't have worked in 2012 the same way jonah wouldn't have worked because he's too young he didn't say in 2014 you got him at the right age but you mentioned that um you guys have some familial experience with the diamond district why set a movie in this world what was it about it that you wanted to put on screen it's it's it's a um it's a you know 47th street over the years the 10 years i would constantly well our dad mind myself our dad did work there when we were younger as like a runner and a and a sales a salesperson what does that mean a runner uh it's funny we're actually releasing a zine with a24 that is documenting all the stories he would go from like you'll be able to

read about he would go from the main base on 47 to other jewelers in the tri-state area trying to sell them gold and jewelry and like commission so what started actually with you know you took the subway out to like east new york and and uh you know like tough places especially in the late 80s early 90s and then he needed a car. So, uh, the guy who he worked for was also named Howard. They ended up, he's like, all right, we'll, we'll get you a car because yes, you're right. We can do more business if you can travel farther. And he would show up with, you know, the catalog and actual jewelry. And then he would give to these local jewelers stuff on consignment. Sometimes they buy stuff outright. And, uh, yeah, there was this car that

would, uh, there was this whole thing in the first version of the script where, you know, there's a method to robbing runners and salesmen. You poke their tire when they go into a jewelry store, let's say, in, like, East Brunswick, right? And then you get the – the salesman gets back in the car. They're driving. They don't – and then the car – it's called a slow leak. So the car slowly lets out of air. And then when you pull over to change the tire, you're, the turnpike and they come on jack you and you know whatever beat the shit out of you uh so that type that was like the initial spark of the movie there were these

like kind of tied to like these amazing pulp stories that existed only in that block and from how that block does business so it's like oh this is an amazing world let's try and make something there and it was tied to yeah trying to be sentimental about like what was around. It was also like the barbaricism, the ancient quality felt like the Middle Ages on the block there. You have, you know, all these people and like there's like this strange spiritualism deeply embedded in this heightened consumerist materialist world of people running around and, and kind of hawking and selling like they're all selling the same merchandise more or less, but every once in a while something new will come in and everyone has to look at it almost religiously.

So, and, and it was, you know, when I started doing my research there, the, the energy is infectious. And that was the thing that every once in a while when we would be in a lull

with a production or something like that, they were working on, I would go to 47th street and just walk the block. And every time the energy was, was, was like a drug. And I would be, I would send a text to Benny and Ronnie and see, but I would just say like, it's, it's still there. It's still there. And, and, and yeah, it's, it is. And I wonder how long it will still be remain there. So I have a long it will remain there. So I have a little bit of experience in that part of the world. And what you put in the movie is very familiar to me. But how much are you talking about how to make it legible versus we're going to thrust you into a world?

And it should be confusing and disorienting because, you know, the story and the camera is basically sitting on Howard's shoulder the whole time. And you're thrust into situations and people are having conversations that might not be legible to somebody who's never lived in New York or certainly not visited that part of New York. So is that, are you like, this just has to be authentic or we have to explain a little bit to get the viewer comfortable? I think the only time we went out of our way to explain was some of the betting stuff. Like we literally, characters were invented to explain the betting line. I always find, we had a teacher once that said like every movie should serve a function on some level. I was like, what do you mean by this? Like it should be pragmatic in the sense that you could put it on to learn something. So like learn how to make, have someone make a fire in your movie

so that someone can learn how to make a fire. They can take that excerpt and learn how to. Was the godfather with the meatball, like the meat sauce? Isn't that one of them? Yeah, right. That's Coppola's family recipe. So there's a lot of, we tried,

so that you extend that to like the general idea of just showing the world. And you know, like you want that to like the general idea of just showing a world and, and you, you know, like you want people to, you know, I often learn more through fiction than I do through nonfiction. And you want to kind of,

you, you want the movie to, to be a key hole into a world. So if, if you're stopping and just explaining or describing things at any moment, it's just not how life unfolds. Yeah. And also I think by there are certain things that we know, okay, you may not catch that, but you'll catch enough to be able to move forward.

You know, it's, and it's more important to get the authentic nature of who these people are, because that will be so much more, I guess, valuable to a viewer through the experience of the film because you're feeling these people as real people and if you don't necessarily catch every bit of what's going on you're still invested in the overall movies are the closest things we have to time travel and to teleportation and like that's what you want a movie to do you want a movie to take you to a place that you've never been before and i mean it sounds cheesy but that's just the reality of it you know that's why like i'm we're we're excited about the prospect of even doing something like a proper this 2012 is a period piece but doing like a period is like you can actually bring people transport you can make people yeah make people think that this is a

real like a thing that they're getting access to but it's also also, a lot of it's like, okay, so then you have somebody like Sandler who is a personality. How do you get him to disappear, you know, as Howard? And I think, yeah, he put in the time and put in the work

to just kind of become somebody new that when you're watching it, you have the emotions of what Sandler brings out of you, but you're watching a new person.

And I think that's huge. What about Kevin Garnett? Oh, man. So he was not involved last we spoke. And, you know, he's perfect. Yeah, he's amazing. Amazing. The Garnett side of things, from a writing perspective, when I think back on it, I'm like, I can't believe I endured that.

You know, Garnett plays a character in the movie that's central to the plot and to the themes of the film. And, you know, when we originally wrote it, it was Amari Stoudemire. Amari Stoudemire is, you know, amongst basketball fans, almost famously eccentric and, you know, is also famously a black Jewish person. And the themes of the movie worked really well with this Ethiopian Jewish tribe finding this black opal

and it arriving in New York from them. So the, you know, you could imagine and also the New York of it all. Like Amari is like this person is almost like a gem of his own came to the city and is resurrecting this dead franchise. And, and, and it breaks my heart just to hear you say that. It was, I know it was going back for a moment when we were making the movie. It almost was like 2012. We were about to hit that 54 win season. Yeah.

We didn't. But I was reminded that we were a lottery team. Forevermore. So when you write Amari Sattermeyer, you know, we got to know him. We actually, when it was Harvey Keitel, we set up a Shabbat dinner at Amari's house with Harvey's family and Amari's family. And I remember bringing because I knew at that point I had read as much as I could and watch as many interviews with, with Amari.

So I was like, you know, I'm going to bring him a gift for Shabbat. I'm going to bring him above the rim. Cause he loves Tupac and he loves basketball. He, this has got to be a staple. I almost felt like,

I almost felt like taxi driver, like the, you know, bringing the Chris Christopherson record. Cause it's like, of course he probably has this, but he didn't have it. So I was like, oh, my God, I'm the one who's going to give him above the rim. He stars a basketball, a former basketball player.

Dwayne Martin is in it. And Leon, who supposedly notoriously had a studio apartment in the garden. Is that true? They said he lives there. They say he lives there. Anyway, I love that movie. And Tupac turns in a great performance. Amazing.

And there's a great Warren G. I think we've seen that movie like a hundred times. Yeah, I love that movie. And Tupac turns in a great performance. Amazing. And there's a great Warren G. Yeah, I think we've seen that movie like 150 times. Yeah, I love it. That's a good rewatch. Yes, it is. It is. But so, you know, I had known Amari's personality pretty well. So I was able to write it, which is you can.

So you're writing the movie around this person with this who has unique motivations and concern and then along the way you know for financial reasons people are trying to push you it's like 2015 like let's go for kobe kobe wants to act everyone heard kobe wanted to act so i the agency said you know write it for kobe let's send it to me you got a shot here so i'm i take the time to rewrite the whole script with kobe ryan which is difficult because this movie has to center around real games in uh the way they actually unfolded and you have to write the persona of the player and which is tough so i have to like get into kobe and what does it mean what can we find east

coast games that even make sense that he's in new york and would come by a jewelry store and we ended up centering it that version around the 60 point game he did at the garden. Okay. And that was like, you know, and the, the gem was kind of a youth elixir and Howard, you know, is kind of a guy past his prime. So it kind of makes sense as where there as well. Finally, the agency's like, where is it? He wants it. I was like, dude, it takes me time to rewrite this whole script and come up with a whole new set of themes. And I was like, give me another couple of days. So finally, I'm like about to send it.

They're like, oh, we'd actually just heard from Kobe's team. He doesn't want to act. He actually wants to direct. It's like, thanks a lot. Fuck you. I would actually spend a lot of time writing this. So then we went back to the drawing board and we ended up. We went back to Amari for a little bit. We went back to Amari for a minute.

And then we were like, you know what? Let's not make a period piece. Let's make this contemporary. And we looked at players we thought who worked with the ideas movie and we landed on joelle and beat and joelle was attached for a while actually he was attached up until four months before production and i got close to joelle which was awesome and i became kind of a default like a de facto uh sixers fan which was exciting because i was like, wow, this is a great team. I remember they invited us to a Sixers game in Philly, and we sat next to the mayor of Philadelphia,

who, by the way, during timeouts was zooming in on press shots from a photo shoot earlier in the day that he did with Sylvester Stallone on the steps. And it was like, this is unbelievable. I'm next to the Philadelphia mayor at the Sixers. I think it was a Sixers-C game actually. And it was an incredible, I remember Rich Paul was sitting two seats from us and I, and LeBron came up to Rich Paul. I didn't know who he was.

And I was like, Oh my God, you know, LeBron. And he's like, no, I don't know him. He just talks to the fans. And then someone mentioned that we made Lenny Cook and he's, he's like, you guys did Lenny Cook. And all of a sudden he's like, Oh, my name is. I remember I took, I took my phone out to like test the slow motion video on it. And I was like, Oh, LeBron's coming down. So I did it. And it was like the most insane dunk from like almost the breathing line.

It was like soared through. I was like, oh, my God. I cannot believe I got that from courtside. Anyway, that was like an incredible privilege and honor. Jenny, though, his manager. Jenny Sachs, who's in the movie. She plays Kevin's manager in the film. She's Joelle's manager.

And she was amazing. She is a cinephile. She watches a lot of movies, like a lot, you know, and grew up watching. She has a background in psychiatry and she worked in, you know, I think she worked at like needle exchanges in Rochester. So that heaven knows what she had seen heaven knows what, which was so bizarre for someone from the sports world to see that movie. So it was perfect. Everything was kind of syncing up nicely. And the themes of the movie worked really well.

You have this gemstone taken from Africa, brought to America, and you have a player, an African player, who can actually see this. We can work with the idea of reclamation. And it worked. And Joel, obviously, he was known for his trolling sense of humor.

And the movie, we pushed the comedic themes of the movie. Scott Rudin was constantly pushing us to add jokes anyway. So everything was working. And then the schedule pushed into the season. All of a sudden, we don't have a player anymore because we can't shoot with an active player. And then we have to go back to the drawing board and look at recently retired players. And that's when we saw Kevin Garnett's name on that list.

And Garnett, as a Knicks fan, instinctively, I hated him. So I was like, no way, Kevin Garnett, I fucking hate him. And it's also, it's like his games are so much more like well-rounded. You know, he doesn't have like a 60-point game, but a rebound is just as important. So it's like that actually then makes it as a basketball fan, it becomes more interesting because then you can kind of spread the bet out through the whole but it amplifies the gamble exactly but i was actually i was it was shame on me because i was actually blinded my the sports fan in me was actually prohibiting us uh the the part of my brain that can actually deduce if someone's a good actor or not, because I hated Kevin Garnett because of his performative self. I hated him because he was a heel in the NBA and that he actually every night

knew how to, how to, how to play to 20,000 people. He saw it as theater, almost all of his Craig Sager interviews. Those are the things you kind of, so then we took the, we took the phone meeting with him and I was honest.

Second, I met him. I was like, I hate your guts on the phone. And he loved that. He's like, you're a Knicks fan. Benny's like, how much did Amari have time on the clock? Yeah, it's like, come on.

And he's like, oh. Nine years ago in a regular season game. You guys are talking about a game from 2012? It's 2019, 2018. He's like, you guys, look. He was like a therapist. This is the three-pointer that Amari did. Yes, that should have counted.

If they had modern technology, they would have been a three- modern technology that we asked Doc. We asked Doc Rivers who lends his voice to the movie at one point. We said so. We asked him the same question. Did Amari have time on the clock?

He goes he didn't but he should have. And we believe that if Amari did hit that shot game changer the entire franchise could be different because that would have been the

ninth game in a run would have been the ninth game in a row then which would probably lead to a 10 game winning streak which would have been the ninth game in a run. It would have been the ninth game in a row, then which would probably led to a 10-game winning streak, which would have cemented Amari kind of as a frontrunner for the MVP. For the trade, no mellow trade. It's whatever. We can go down that path.

D'Antoni's still in the Knicks. But we ended up getting into it with KG, and then we met with him in person. And what we noticed with him in person, which were the signs of a great actor is that he had this ability to walk you through a story he had this unbelievable talent in storytelling to give shape to a story and feel the ebbs and flow of the room and that was when i was like oh this guy will be a natural yeah and it's also just like when you meet with anybody who

hasn't ever acted before you have to read their personality like do they have something that can translate into the movie in an interesting way in general? And we met with some players who were great and you could kind of see how maybe they would get it on an intellectual level or just like understanding.

But Kevin not only got it on that level, but he had this intense passion about everything. And that's where like, okay, this is going to be next level. Because Howard is a passionate guy. And I remember we spoke to Kevin. It's like, okay, this is going to be next. Because Howard is a passionate guy. And I remember we spoke to Kevin. It's like, well, what is it about the stone that would make you excited? And he said, I could get behind the superstition of needing something to win. And it was like, it's perfect. Yeah. He told us this incredible stories, you know, a big, a big part of,

you know, working with an actor is you get to know them on a personal level and you know it's almost becomes you know like you both have to feel comfortable to share things about your private lives and and uh you become friends you know and and uh he shared some stories from his youth that were very touching and and some of them heartbreaking and they ended up all being very helpful in getting him to explore this character and also explore feeling comfortable with one another on set. He called me coach once. But yeah, and I said, what do you mean coach? He's like, yeah, you're the coach.

The script is the playbook. And I'm just executing the plays. And the other time he's like, who's this? He's like, who's this guy with the boom who's like giving me like these great tips on acting? I was like, that's me. That's the other defensive assistant but we had to rewrite the whole script just for kevin and that became something that acted when there was over 160 drafts of this script jesus yeah and over 160 because every time you cast somebody new you kind of have to revisit it to kind of give it life again so are you guys gamblers j Josh is more of a gambler than I am. I, I,

I like to view it like there was actually, it's a funny story. When we were promoting daddy long legs, we did this, like we self-invented tour along the route one. We tried to give him his IFC to pay for it. And they're like, but pay for your rental.

So we got like a one way rental car down and we decided, okay, we'll buy a tent. And Josh wrote holiday in on the tent and we would pitch the tent in these campgrounds and then we would go to the casinos along the way. And there was one casino in particular, which it was just, it was, it was a sad day. Josh was losing a ton of money and it was just like. A ton of money.

It was every money, all the dollars I had. Yeah, but it was. Was it Commerce Casino? It was, where was it? It was, it was out in between Portland and California. I don't remember any of the names of them. I just remember what we would do is we would pitch the tent and I would immediately look for the closest casino.

And we would actually keep an eye on it while we're driving. But so we're at this one place and Josh wins, like he wins a good hand. And I'm like, all right, we're done. I take the chips. I put them in my pocket. I said, I'm going to the bathroom. I'll meet you outside. He's like, okay, great.

Yeah. Amazing. We won. So I go to the bathroom and I come back and I just see now Josh is is on the opposite side of the casino sitting at a table nodding his head and i come over and the only thing i hear is okay and you just lost and so the woman takes the chips from me he goes okay i understand how to play now uh let's do it one more time and he starts betting all this moment i'm like no no no it's like and he lost his all shades of howard yes well i mean i okay are we gamblers i mean there's there's a part of – Making this movie was a gamble.

It really was. I mean, there's a scene in the movie where Howard shows up at an auction house. And, you know, it's everything he's been working towards is in the coming scenes. And, you know, he walks up and I can only – the scene is very personal for me even though no one would ever think that, you know, you, you, a filmmaker, you, you, you work and you work and you work and work on something and you see the value in it. And you have to constantly trying to convince people of that value, either on a directorial sense with the actors and you're trying to, you know, come up with this emotional value, what have you, you know, you finish the product and it's there and it means everything. It's your world. You know what I mean? And you've, you've bet everything. it's there and it means everything. It's your world. You know what I mean? And you've,

you've bet everything you've bet the house on it. If it doesn't work, you go into a corporate job, it's done. You know what I mean? And, and, uh,

you know, Howard shows up at this auction house and he sees the catalog, you know, like a filmmaker shows up at a film festival and you see it and you're like, Oh my God, I'm in that. This is, you're excited.

Then you flip it over and you're like, it's like 500 other movies. And you're just like one page of this thing. And you're like oh my god i'm in that this is you're excited then you flip it over and you're like it's like 500 other movies and you're just like one page of this thing and you realize like oh you're not special at all you're actually you're actually there's your your worth is nothing and you know and your product is it totally gonna be the value of it's gonna be rest on random people uh and and that's you know that's a gamble it's a gamble you take and it's also i guess yeah like each movie that we made if it had failed like you were saying we would not be able to make another movie so in a weird way yes it's like i say i'm not a gambler but yes of course i'm a gambler well we made think about it we made heaven knows

what like we literally we couldn't we couldn't you know after daddy long legs it was a very small budgeted film and then we tried to make something bigger. And then we made this documentary. And that was, you know, that that had an that was a very well widely seen movie for us. It was on Showtime and ESPN. It was played a lot. You know, and it was you'd meet people, a mailman who said he cried watching that movie. That was awesome.

But then when we went to go make this very hard movie to get made, this movie that stars homeless people and was a high concept movie, a hybrid movie, it was very difficult to raise. So we basically made that for no money. Like the only people who got paid were the actors. And everyone on the crew was just like doing it because they maybe liked our previous movie or what have you. It was a very small crew. So and we put we we basically we bet the house on that one and that was really difficult that movie could have blown up in our face every single day and uh you know and then good time you know we everyone told us we went

around shopping that movie trying to get a certain budget for it and uh we were told everyone's like no no you can't make it this is this is like a 12 million dollar movie you can't do. And we're like, no, no, no, we can do it for basically 10 percent of the cost. And, you know, to my thing, the movie was like a two million dollar movie or something. And but that was absurd. Everyone who did line production of that movie was just like, there's no way you can make this. And they did the metrics like, well, Rob Pattinson is this, that and the other. And it was. Yeah. And we and we we made that movie made that movie we it was really really really hard to make that movie like like 18 19 hour days every single day and if and if that one day i think we did it on a on a friday

we just went we did it we did a 22 hour day it was not at that point you're literally just getting paid like you're just getting stuff done you know it's not nobody's operating on the right but we could see but we knew that we needed to learn about genre. We need to learn about pacing. And we, and we believed in that movie. We believed in what it could have done for us. And that was the movie that got us Sandler. You know, Sandler, we went, we're at Cannes with that movie and he was there with Meyerowitz.

And he, you know, I think he, we tried to get a meeting with him there. He's like, I'm with my family. Like I'm promoting a movie. Let's like, I'm with my family. Like, I'm promoting a movie. Let's like, I'm not going to do it. He's pure like that, Sandler. But then he watched it when he got back and he immediately called us, like texted us. Sandler, this is like, this can't actually, I didn't know where it came from. Came out of the blue.

He said, your movie's fucking incredible. I said, who is this? He goes, Sandler. I said, which one? And he goes, the famous one. Because I knew a Richard Sandler. I said, which one? And he goes, the famous one, because I knew a Richard Sandler. And then I said, oh, I know a famous Sandler photographer. And he goes, the more famous one.

And yeah, and then he read the script. And then about almost 10 months later, we were shooting the movie. A year later, actually. Gems is not a mega budgeted movie, but it's, I assume, a lot more money than you guys have had to make movies in the past. Yes. Was that a good thing? Was that a bad thing to have more responsibility in that respect? Somebody asked us a long time ago about like, in Daddy Long Legs, there's a scene with a tornado and like a paper tornado.

And we did what we could. We have to explain what that means. A paper tornado is like a- I was getting there. So basically what happens is the kids are going to work with their dad. They make a bunch of photocopies. When they leave, the bags break and the wind takes it and creates a paper tornado. We did what we could.

And it was- With a bunch of leaf blowers. With a bunch of leaf blowers and like a thousand copies. And we were excited. 10,000 copies. It wasn't 10,000. Really? It was not a lot actually.

Okay, sure. And so then we were excited by it. And then somebody then somebody said oh hopefully you'll get a bigger budget to make your next movie what does that mean for you like oh we'll make a bigger paper tornado so it's like that's kind of how we approached it except that was so naive of us because you know with with bigger budgets and things like that it doesn't actually you know like this was a this was our first union movie you know and and which was great because the great because not to denigrate at all the work before, but now you have access to this talent pool that wouldn't previously work on your movies because they weren't. But it was big. It was a big crew.

And there's certain things. You had union requirements of a certain amount of people. You had to be on set. I remember we were. No 22-hour days on a movie like that. You could do it. It just gets really, really expensive.

And, and we did, I think we did one 18 hour. And that was like, everybody was. I mean, but like people really believed in the movie. And I think that,

you know, that's a testament. Darius Kanji helped build out the crew. You know, we were working with, everyone we met with was believed in it, which was great. But I remember with the first day,

the second day we were in the diamond district doing our negative day to whatever it's called. So it's not an official prep, a prep shoot, but you have like basically the full crew together. And I remember I had to do a wardrobe approval with Adina because we were shooting with her on Monday. And what happened?

Oh, we walked over. The AD came, Amy came up to me. Go over to like 45th, yeah. She's like, you need to do an approval at the wardrobe trailer. I was like, wardrobe trailer, okay. So they're like, I was like, where is it?

It's on 45th Street. I was like, okay. So I go to 45th Street, I'm walking down 6th Avenue and I immediately get into my head about what we have left to shoot. And I'm thinking about, you know, what I want to talk about with the actors.

And then I make a right and sit in 45th and my periphery just catches trailers. And I looked down, I'd see like street full of trailers going down by on time square. And I'm immediately thinking like, Oh man, I wonder what they're filming. And, and instinct. And another instinct is like, this is going to fuck up our shoot. You know, like I hate film productions in New York. They're a nuisance. Uh, but you know, then you're, but then you realize, you know, you, you walk in literally, I saw one of like a PA is like, Oh, then you're but then you realize you know you you walk in

literally i saw one of like a pa is like oh hey josh what are you looking for i was like oh uh it's just ours they go yeah this is your this is your film this is our movie and then i went and i saw the uh wardrobe trailer miyako's in there and she opens she's like we made it it was a cool moment but i but it was but it was a moment where i was like oh wow this is a huge infrastructure and uh you know and and and figuring out a ways to kind of usurp it i never left the It was a cool moment, but it was a moment where I was like, oh, wow, this is a huge infrastructure. And figuring out ways to kind of usurp it. I never left the set ever again. I always stayed right where I was. You figure out ways to like – it helps.

There are certain things that you couldn't do before that you could do now. And it's like, oh, okay, we can do that. There was like the Chris Solano and Maceo. Like what we could do with the team that Darius had set up was out of control for a camera. And it was like, okay, now it literally just opened our brains in an interesting way. So I think that this movie has an interesting blessing and curse duality. So I think that you guys could theoretically have what I would call a big fucking deal problem or gift. So to a lot of people, Adam Sandler is a big fucking deal. To a lot of people, Kevin Garnett is a big fucking deal. To a lot of people, Idina Menzel is a big fucking deal problem or gift. So to a lot of people, Adam Sandler is a big fucking deal to a lot of people.

Kevin Garnett is a big fucking deal to a lot of people. Idina Menzel is a big fucking deal to fans of Atlanta. Lakeith Stanfield is a big fucking deal. Yeah. The weekend is a big fucking deal for me. Mike Francesa is a big fucking deal. How tell me how he became involved in Mike Francesa. Yes.

Uh, I, I am a fan of his as well. I like his radio personality a lot. We had a quote of his up in our production office about the guy on the LAE. That's who he's doing it for. The guy who's looking up to make sure what it is. Yeah. And I don't know for some, you know, when you make a movie about the sports world and we started to devise this character, Gary, a bookie.

I just, for some reason, all I could see was, was, was his hair and his teeth and his, and I could hear his voice. That's all I could do. And, and I, and I just knew, you know, like kevin that he's a performative self and you just know he's going to be a natural and when we met with him it turns out he was kind of jealous of he was jealous of mad dog being the voice in bad lieutenant yeah so he was i think he wanted to the person one of the first things that he's like mad dog got this i'm getting responded very he responded immediately to our casting jennifer netty reached out to him and I think Francine Mazur, they both, he was like the first person. He's like, he's interested.

He wants to meet you. And I was like, oh, sick. Get to. This is in a nice lineage with Bad Lieutenant too. Sort of New York crime movie that has a sports storyline alongside of it. I heard that they actually shot a scene. Oh, with Daryl. Or they tried to shoot a scene with Daryl Strawberry in Bad Lieutenant.

Oh, interesting. And they couldn't figure out a way. Like we couldn't do that. He was not in a good way at that time, Darrell. We couldn't actually shoot at a basketball game because then, you know, we'd have to use – work within the NBA. And it's – yeah. More challenging. Yeah, exactly.

But, yeah, I mean I was very excited when Mike came on board because I just knew that those – we shot with him for only one day and it was a long day, but I remember just, I knew that day was going to be great. I think the Yankees were playing and I think Sandler and him just like, you know, because that's his, that's his,

we also met him at an Italian restaurant and he had all the plates. It was like, it was very in the vibe of what we were going for. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, yeah. He was the Pope.

I think that Dan LaPattin's music is like definitely the eighth character of the movie that's a cliche to say that but in this case is very much true part of like the pulsating feeling that you get while watching the movie you you guys have worked with dan before like tell me about how you make a a score together oh man i mean the gems good time was was um comparatively easy to do uh because it was yeahatively easy to do because it was – Because, yeah, the narrative was driving it a lot. It was almost like it was single-minded, that score.

You know what I mean? It was just kind of like – it was all BPM-based and it was all – it was the pulse. It was kind of like the Klaus Schulz score to Angst. You know what I mean? Actually, that had more nuance to it. But it was – we but um it was we knew what it was all the time and with gems it was more mercurial and more kind of like there are a few pieces that were in the good time wheelhouse kind of more more uh pulse driven and kind of

anxiety inducing uh but there were all there's a lot of cues cues that are very much inspired by New Age music and trying to get at the inner dreams of Howard Ratner, which is tough because Howie's a very complicated guy. He wants everything, but he also wants more. And what does that kind of Elegic space sound like? And yeah, we spent a lot of time on getting that score down and adding real elements. There's a lot of flutes in the movie. There's a lot of saxophone. You know, saxophone is such a New York, you know, brass instrument. And we had incredible, also we had we had great collaborators

on this as well like eli kessler incredible percussionist uh we had uh gatekeeper did some stuff on the movie and it's it's funny because dan was like wordless music in his the choir stuff because a lot of the times with the score you can just kind of have it and then when the scenes come the score goes down and then it just plays underneath and it's just kind of yeah we don't believe in underscores. So Dan is like so excited because it's always there, you know? And it's like,

it's at the same level. Right. It's an active part of the film. And it's, and for him, it was exciting because we're not going to, we're going to find a way to make it all work together as opposed to competing with one.

What's interesting is it's the same amount of score as good time, except good time is 35 minutes shorter. So it's 50 minutes, I think, 52 minutes of score in Gems, and it's a 135-minute movie. So it's strange because the music is so euphoric at times and also so chaotic at other times. But it's also a manic. It's that bipolar era.

It's mood based in a lot of ways. And it's moody. Yeah. Yeah, it's going up and down. And, but my cues, you know, like even just like, we also took, like I said earlier, took great inspiration from new age music and the medicinal quality of music,

how new age music was thought of like, oh, you can listen to this to erupt a chakra or to calm yourself down so we were using meditation bowls and choirs which are normally accompanying a room with a big buddha at the front of it where everyone's trying to like enter some clean head space but we're tying it to guys being in a locked in a vestibule you know it's very different there's a juxtaposition there and uh you know we we used uh uh uh rec recreated this thing called the space base which was invented by this this woman constance demby who designed it as a healing tool and it's supposed to like erupt your chakras and that's

actually becomes the sound of the opal and and you know we were very you know we were we were we were kind of obsessed with that. Dan, we listened to this music. And then we would just, like the first session with Dan was, let's go through all of his synthesizers. Mo was very participant in the movie. They designed patches for us. We would send like, hey, we need a sound like this. And they would build it for us.

But we went through all of his synthesizers and his Omnisphere. And we basically kept a library of sounds that evoked a certain feeling for us and i would you know get into the howard headspace and go empty desire or yearning gamble and and uh you know it's actually the this bipolar disorder the score in a weird way is actually your it's tied to his emotions in a lot of ways so it's like if he's feeling elated the score will do it's so it's like i his emotions in a lot of ways. So it's like if he's feeling elated, the score will do... So it's like, I guess, yeah, you always say like Mickey Mousing is not a good thing where it's like

boing, like the score will directly relate to an action in the movie. In this case, it's almost directly relating to an emotional state of being. Yeah, it is his pulse. When it's up, it's up. Exactly. So the movie is kind of like... There's been a lot of... But it's cosmic too. The score is very cosmic so what the movie is kind of like there's been a lot of cosmic too

the score is very cosmic and the movie is cosmic the music the book ended score especially when you come in and when you go out has like the idea of the real quality on some level this movie uh the 2001 was a big inspiration on this movie too so it's like this idea that we the universe is inside of all of us that the cosmic element that like one person on one side of the same planet is in a microsecond worrying about a machine falling on his leg because of terrible working conditions and dying on the same exact time at the same exact time on the other side of the same planet, you have a person who's worried about a basketball player hitting a free throw in that same microsecond, but that's also life or death. So it's like that scope of things, that micro macro is, you know, tied to, you know, this cosmic music. So like, you know, like the Carl Sagan show Cosmos,

you know what I mean? These things are all very inspiring to going into the score. The movie has already earned a reputation as high anxiety, a panic attack. People are like this. I couldn't breathe while I was watching it. The thing that it reminded me of was like an Altman movie on cocaine. There's just a lot of people talking over each other, under each other. The music is very present. There's obviously this heart quickening feeling while you're watching it, but I feel like orchestrating that is really hard. There's very few filmmakers that are like, what we need to do is have three people talking at the same time. That's confusing.

Yeah. Well, the thing is, is like you go, we go in knowing that that's going to be the case. You know, it's like, okay, the performance we believe would be heightened by the freedom that that would allow that. Like if we could just talk over one another, we don't have to worry about pausing and waiting for you to talk. So it just, it breeds an interesting energy. So let's play with that. And we knew that we'd have to make it work later somehow.

And we were confident that that was going to happen. And so it just, there were certain scenes where like it was almost not possible, but it just, it breeds a life that reflects the characters in the film. You know, that there is this constant run of people talking business here, business there, you know, form Louis Sullivan said form follows function. And it is so I live by that. You know, when, every time I would go back to the diamond district, like I was saying earlier, I would get

that bug. That bug came from the energy that comes from you go into a jewelry store and there's literally three deals happening at the same time. Meanwhile, you go into a jewelry store and there's literally three deals happening at the same time. Meanwhile, there's a food buffet that's out because it's, you know, this Jewish holiday and everyone, and then you're drinking, and you're drinking at three, two, at noon. So that energy was a part of it.

So recreating that, you know, and then trying to then express yourself within that kind of created chaos is, in a weird way is is it's like it's forcing you like I always I don't I don't watch a lot of football. But when I do watch, I can always I always relate to the quarterback when they're surrounded by their pocket and they're in the pocket and they're looking to make that when they can land when they can be in there for a little bit. Oh, my God, I can't believe they're holding all these people off for this long. Control chaos. Exactly. I really – I love that. And I actually find that I can perform best in that scenario because I'm blinded by the self-conscious nature of it in a weird way. Anything that makes me forget about myself at any moment, I'm into it.

It's actually funny. There was one scene where we were doing it. I guess everybody was tired. It was right before lunch. And it was like kind of just like everybody was just going through the motions a little bit and i'm like something's off here like we need to like drop a bomb on this whole thing and then of course it like everything i'll say that there's one scene i think have you have you i think at the the scene if you remember the scene at the when he kevin meets kevin grand for the first time there's a sequence of scenes

in the script it was this gargantuan sequence of scenes. And it was a lot. It was like a lot of characters, a lot of extras in a very small space. And it was that thing that's crazy in the dimension that anyone who's ever had to go through to buy an engagement ring was like, oh, I'll never forget that day. And we had to replicate that. And I think that there's – in particular, there's a scene between Sandler and Lakeith where they're having a, quote, private conversation. And I can't stand when private. The watches.

Yes. Yes. I can't stand in TV and movies when someone has a private conversation that's so clearly not private. I can't. It's a pet peeve. I can't stand it. Like, let's go over here. It's like, well, you're talking a full volume.

And some movies even, like like make light of it. Even a Sandler movie did with Boundback. They make light of it when he's, they're trying to get into the moment and they're like, they can hear you. She's right there. That's right. Um, so what we've tried to do, and this is helpful for the same thing applies to, you know, putting marks down for actors.

We don't do that stuff because we like, we don't want an actor to be kind of reminded that things are that, that they, they're doing something for something else. They're doing it only for themselves because that's how you are in life unless there's some other motivation. So with that scene between Sandler and Lakeith, we encouraged all the extras to just speak freely and pretend as if. And there's a lot of stuff to look at on our sets. At full volume. So they're all looking at the photographs of Sandler, the Photoshop photos of him with rappers and looking at the actual jewelry. We had a lot of real jewelry on those showcases.

So people are talking in full volume in a space that's pretty reverberant. So the conversation that they're having actually feels private. It feels like they can get away with having this conversation. And also they're forced, if someone's screaming, they're actually forced to actually raise the volume of their voice. And that adds an element of realism that, you know, I don't know, that makes – that kind of shoots down this idea that you're creating something from nothing. You know what I mean? I've always – since I was a kid, I used to tell the grown-up stories and I would add so many details to the point where they're like, this must – actually, I think this is real. You know, and that was my – that was the bar. I just wanted them to believe what I was saying. And we went back and actually we watched one version and in the sound mix and we're like, Oh, something isn't right.

We went back to the diamond district to just record sounds of what was happening in the showroom. And I remember being in one of the showrooms, just recording the ambient noise. And there was like conversation in Russian going on over here. There was this cell phones were ringing. I thought you were going to get punched when we were recording. Then he was walking up to like guys doing deals on the street, dipping his mic into their conversation. Just sticking it in there. Microphone right up to their mouth.

They're like, is everything, you got a problem? I was like, no, I'm good. Just looking over here. Microphone right in there. Unbelievable. I thought he was going to get it. But they just kept talking. The photo is actually very funny.

I totally, I don't know how I got away. You just go into this mode of I'm invincible. Yeah, filmmaking does that to you, which is dangerous. But it's like, so you have all the sound. You listen back to it. Oh, cell phone rings. So that's why like in that. But then what about our ADR script?

Oh, yeah. Then we went back. We submitted the ADR script to Rudin and Eli. It's basically like, all right, just so you're aware, this is what we're going into the recording studio to record. And we're bringing all these tons of actors in. They're like, from when they watched the cut, they didn't see any usually use adr to like fix sound problems that was they didn't notice many issues so they were they were weirded out why it was so many days like well this is it and i sent them a 45 page adr like basically they were like this is a whole other

movie happening in the background of the movie the best and it's fun because you get to like like okay that guy right there what is that person talking about? So you actually get to write these. The nooks and crannies. And it's also like, oh, Kevin, we like, let's put more pressure on Kevin and Howard to get this gem given to him. So we have a whole other character who becomes Kevin's best friend in the story. But he's like, he's all off screen. Be like, yo, Kev, check this out. It's like everybody's talking about it.

Amazing. And yeah, it's cool. I have a lot more questions, but I'm not going to take up too much of your time. We're here, Sean. What has to happen for this movie? Does it have to be like a big hit? I don't know. To me, the movie got made,

and that to me is the blessing, is that we made it, and we made it with the people. And in a weird way, it's exactly what i wanted it to be with no compromises whatsoever and that's a testament to all of our collaborators and and you know i don't know i tell like it's it's weird sticking to your to your ideas and to your guns but i don't i don't know i can't speak to that side it's weird because every time we finish

something we think everybody's gonna want to see this thing. Because it just is a part of like why we wanted to express it in the first place. Like this is the itch everybody wants scratched. So we're like so excited. We always go out like thinking that. Do you remember like the first time you had like a friend who made music and you heard one of their songs? Like this is actually really good.

And you're thinking like, oh, my friend's going to become like a huge star. And then you play for other people and they're like can you turn this off or something that feeling kind of never really is you know escapes you when you're you know that's when you start to get reminded of then you start to feel a little lonely when you're just like oh it is just kind of your itch uh well that's the thing is like you guys over the course of the last eight, nine, 10 years, depending on how closely you're paying attention to your careers, Scrappy Underdogs, the Safdies are creative, burst of energy. Their movies are uniquely their own, even if they're in completely different formats

or genres. And now you guys made a movie with Adam Sandler and it's a big movie, or at least it feels like a big movie. And then does that change your perception or your perspective on what you're going to do and be no not at all that's the thing

it does not at all it's like we're still trying to it was educational we're still trying to learn and but yeah I don't think we're

change because it's it's still trying to understand new things and how you can use filmmaking or narrative in a lot of ways

to to understand characters and emotions so it's all yeah it was the most this was everything thing that we do is educate we're lucky to be able to go through these educational uh processes and and this this one in particular we learned so much from all of the incredible veterans that were surrounded that were surrounding us and that was it feels like you know in a weird way we're just getting started it felt that way i mean good time i always said it was like, you know, in a weird way, we're just getting started. It felt that way. I mean, good time. I always said it was like our first movie because it was the first movie we had a script supervisor on first movie. We had an ad on, and this was the first movie that we had a, a, a person driving the trucks, like a teamster.

And I loved the teamster, you know, like he was great. He was in on the movie. He was in on the movie. He would see Howard and he would like Howard. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, and we would joke around the fact that our scenic grew up on the same street in this small town in Russia as the guy, Roman, the jeweler, the guy who works in one of the, an actor in the movie, I came out and they're both smoking cigarettes outside the stage. And I'm, uh, they're joking around. I'm just thinking like, oh wow. When you, when you like put it out there, it comes back to you in cool ways. was the most educational with this movie was knowing how to skirt the line of you know it's a thriller right knowing how to play with tension in an interesting way and and the reason why we went with someone like sandler is because we were inspired by a rodney dangerfield by someone who's always on someone who uses humor to kind of constantly either get what they need or relieve

tension and like and, or include themselves. Like if someone laughs, all of a sudden you're invited to the table. And, and I think the way that this movie uses humor and, and like, I'll tell you sitting at the, in the,

on the balcony during the New York film festival screening, the laughter, I felt like Gulliver's travels, like listening to like the inmates laugh in a weird way was, was like really satisfying. Cause I was like, Oh, we, we always write movies as if they're comedies laugh in a weird way was on, was like really satisfying. Cause I was like, Oh, we,

we always write movies as if they're comedies and in a strange way, aside from one of the films we've done, heaven knows what we've done. It was, although buddy, not very funny, but buddy is very funny in it, but, uh,

he's much needed comic relief, but, but, um, you know, but this in like good time, we saw lots of humor in that movie. And,

but this movie actually was revolve, actually was revolving around a funny person. Yeah. And seeing the way that the humor would kind of relieve the tension. And it actually is what makes the movie function. So it's in a weird way, it's a thriller comedy. And that was awesome to see because it was something that we thought about and something that we very surgically kind of administered in the script. And then on set with Sandler, he would constantly bring one-liners to add to improvise,

which was awesome. Guys, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. You guys been able to watch any movies? I know you've been at some festivals. What's the last great thing I've seen? I saw In a Lonely Place. Oh, yeah. By Nick Ray.

Yeah, the Bogart movie. Yeah. I just watched that. That's the one where he's the screenwriter? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great one. And he's, it's so, it's such a, you know, beautiful portrait of moodiness, too. I mean, it's a real Nick Ray autobiography.

Oh, yeah, that was, it's amazing. I just watched The Firm. I couldn't believe he'd never seen The Firm. We did it as a rewatch. It's literally a movie that I, it checks off every single box that I could possibly want in a movie. Similar to Gems in a way.

It is. A man surrounded by conspiracy. I actually was watching exactly in that whole ending. So Scott Rudin produced that movie. Yes. And when he watched- He said the most amazing thing. We watched the present score,

that piano all through the movie. I mean, and Pollock is amazing. Directing, incredible. He said, he was funny. So he said to us, because originally the beginning was a little bit longer. Rudin, the beginning of Gems-

A little bit longer. It was like 35, 40 minutes. And he's like, so the Gem comes at minute 40? He's like, it's got to come sooner. I'm like, what do you mean? It's called Uncut Gems. And he goes, just for example,

he goes, the firm, he goes, all for example, he goes, The Firm. He goes, all these drafts come in. He gets the job on page 60. 60. Years go by. He gets the job on page 60. He goes, he gets it in the opening sequence. It's called The Firm.

He gets the job. You can't introduce The Firm. The Firm might be the exact same length as your movie. It is. It is. It's 2.15. 2.15. It's exactly.

That's an early Rudin movie, which is crazy. And then I just watched The Pawnbroker. I had seen it before, but I didn't realize it, but I saw it again. Oh, also similar vibes, Stuncut Gems.

For sure. Well, another Lumet movie that I didn't watch recently, but it's Stranger Among Us, which gets a lot of heat. I've never seen that. It gets a lot of flack. I mean, it's Melanie Griffin

playing a cop who goes undercover in the Diamond District as a Hasidic woman. And it's, yeah, there's a lot of artifice in it. James Gandolfini, early, I think it's one of his first movies. He's great in it. And they shot on the Diamond District. Only two movies have really shot on the Diamond District. Marathon Man, obviously the great scene. And A Stranger Among Us.

Amazing. And now Gems. But that was really, really hard to do. People don't let you take a photograph from the Diamond District. I would encourage anybody to go see it. I thought Uncut Gems was masterful. Josh, thank you. Thanks, guys.

Appreciate it. Thank you to Josh and Benny Safdie for joining the show. Please stay tuned. Early next week, Amanda and I will be back to talk about the reception of Star Wars The Rise of Skywalker in 1917 and just about anything else that's happening in the world of movies.