The Big Picture - The George Clooney Hall of Fame. Plus: Carey Mulligan and Emerald Fennell!

Episode Date: December 23, 2020

The iconic movie star directed and stars in a new Netflix film, 'The Midnight Sky.' To celebrate, Amanda and Sean build a Hall of Fame in his honor, where they enshrine 10 movies from his long career, and 10 only (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by writer-director Emerald Fennell and Carey Mulligan for an interview about their fascinating, divisive, must-see new film, 'Promising Young Woman' (1:10:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Carey Mulligan and Emerald Fennell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about George Clooney, the iconic movie star directed and stars in a new film, The Midnight Sky, which you can find on Netflix right now. To celebrate, Amanda and I will build a Hall of Fame in his honor. In it, we will enshrine 10 movies from his long career and 10 movies only. Then I'll be joined by writer-director Emerald Fennell and

Carrie Mulligan, a favorite of ours here on the show, for an interview about their fascinating, divisive, must-see new movie, Promising Young Woman. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. Okay, Amanda, we have a lot of george clooney to dive into but before we do that we have some breaking news here on the podcast we are hearing there is some rumor mongering about that the radical decision to move all of warner brothers 2021 movie slate to hbo max may have a slight wrinkle it sounds like maybe just maybe dune will not be a part of this transition. This was reported in a Q&A with John Lee Hancock

about his movie, The Little Things, in the intro on Deadline.com. So there's no confirmation here. We don't know if Dune is going into movie theaters. It's slated for October 1st, 2021. But perhaps that sweeping declaration that WarnerMedia made a couple of weeks ago may not be completely true. What is your reaction to this news?

So this is all legal, right? I mean, the first thing was about money and this is about legal stuff because Dune is a part of this spat between Legendary and Warner Brothers and that Dune may be the exception to the rule that Warner Brothers can just put movies wherever it wants contractually. And so to avoid being sued, they are perhaps reassessing on this particular issue. I think that's definitely a key factor. It's the lawsuit that Legendary is trying to bring against Warner Media. I think another factor is probably one of logic, which is that if there is an expectation of a second Dune film to be made down the road, the best way to fund and finance that movie is to

make a lot of money in the short term on the first Dune movie. And you can't make actual hard-earned dollars based on streaming service revenue because that revenue is imaginary and only comes in the form of subscriptions, which is significantly less than what a movie could do at the box office like Dune. There's no guarantee that Dune is going to make a billion dollars. There's no guarantee it's going to make $500 million. But Warner Brothers has to hope that it can and will and thus allow for more Dunes in the future with Denis Villeneuve, Timothee Chalamet, the whole gang.

I am a little bit surprised by this. I think it basically reveals a kind of weakness from Warner Media that I wasn't totally expecting. I thought that that radical nature of that decision was something that they were going to almost be prideful about, that they were going to be able to tout this. And just a little chink in the armor right now. What do you think? I think, yes, there is a chink in the armor. I think there were probably, how many was it? 17 films that were moved to streaming? I think so. So there are 17 chinks in the armor in the form of 17 agents and lawyers who are calling and yelling. And again, that Jason Blum conversation that we referenced in a previous podcast,

he said, if I were in this position, I would call my agent. I would be like, can they do this? And I'm sure that that's what's happening. And I think it will be to varying degrees of what can happen. But again, this is about money. This is about legal arrangements. This is about contracts. For all of the posturing and the blustering and the future of the movies or whatever, this is about the business relationships and i think it will probably mostly

work out in in warner brothers and warner media's favor and then probably they'll have to run a few things back because that some agents will will win probably the case we'll track this closely though probably not closely through the end of the year because the holidays are almost upon us. In the meantime, let's talk about Clooney. Clooney the God, one of our favorites, really just an elite movie presence for going on 25 years now. He has this new movie. Now, The Midnight Sky, it's not that good. I don't want to dwell upon it too much. It falls into this very specific category of Clooney movie that we will spend some time discussing here on this episode, which is when George Clooney decides it is time for him to direct a movie and what that means relative to when he just wants to star in a movie. Not the greatest director in the world. Not necessarily what he was put on this earth to do he's not bad the midnight sky is not bad but it is not a transcendent piece of film what do you think of the movie i agree with

everything that you just said and i think it exhibits one of the george clooney as director tropes that i would like to revisit which is just kind of a it's it's the pacing and how the pacing affects the energy of the movie and just the George Clooney films seem to exist not only in their own time, but in their own just kind of that time moves differently. I guess time does move differently when you're on a spaceship, which half of this movie is. I have a little bit of soft spot of this

because I feel like this movie is a real father of daughters movie and and I mean that in the father of daughters meme sense but also in the sense that you know George Clooney has two young children and this is a movie about parents and children and he's trying and working through some things and I I like it when directors of a certain age are trying to work through their fatherhood in kind of ham-fisted big studio ways. It doesn't always work, but I'm like, ah, this is sweet. George Clooney loves his kids. Yeah, it does have some hallmarks of a kind of more conventional, old-fashioned Hollywood, you know, family-driven sci-fi story. And that's what it is. Without

getting too far into the details of the story, it's basically about a scientist who needs to travel across the Arctic Circle with a young girl to warn a spaceship of a global catastrophe that has reached Earth. And so it's essentially a two-track story. There's an A-plot and a B-plot. Clooney plays the scientist and Felicity Jones and David Oyelowo and Damien Bashir and Kyle Chandler and a handful of other people play the occupants of the spaceship. So the movie kind of plays with time. It plays with questions of existentialism and what our future on earth is. And of course, what it's like to be a father of a daughter and a number of other concepts. It's not bad. It's written by Markel Smith, who wrote The Revenant, among other movies, who's a very

gifted screenwriter. It's just, again, it's another movie that we're seeing at home that we're not gonna be able to see on a big screen that I think might have been aided. There are a couple of sequences. There is like a very tense kind of action sequence near the end of the film that happens in space and then moves into the ship that I thought was really effective and exciting. But also I was watching at home and it was kind of like my Christmas tree was glowing on the screen. And I don't know there, I could smell Christmas cookies baking in the other room. And I was just a little distracted and I'm only human.

And in another life, we would have been seeing this movie on an IMAX screen and here we are, watching at home. It's okay. And that doesn't change the fact that George Clooney is is a legend of of of stage and screen um what do you think of when you think of Clooney like who who who what is what is his his essence I Cary Grant is what I think of and And carry grant is like one of my favorite all time movie stars, certainly old Hollywood movie stars. And I think like does look a bit like him, but that sense of the charm for sure. And the control and the,

the, the comic timing and the rhinos and the ability to wear a suit are all extremely important, both in what Clooney brings to the screen and what Clooney brings off screen. And I think he's like, we're going to talk a lot about him as an actor and as a movie star in movies, but you got to hand it to him. One of the great offscreen movie personas of the last 20 to 25 years. And I cherish that. It's very hard. We don't make movie stars anymore.

It's hard to be as good at it as George Clooney is. And it's a skill. He works at it. He does. He's not even 60 years old, but he's so institutional in my mind. You know, he basically got his start as a famous person just as you and I were coming of age. He was, you know, a longtime television star working in the medium for years in the 80s on, I believe he was on Growing Pains. And then...

I thought it was Facts of Life. Facts of Life. I apologize. I think Growing Pains is Leo. That's right. I confused my iconic legendary white male movie stars of our youth. You're right. He was on Facts of Life.

And then notably, one of the stars of ER when ER became just about the most popular show on planet Earth. And you pointed out here in our outline that he did something that is very rare and that very few people have been able to pull off. And it didn't necessarily look like he was going to be able to pull off at first. What did he do? It's the TV to movie star transition, which especially in the 90s, that did not go well for a lot of people. And if you weren't there in the 90s, I really can't express to you how huge ER and Georgeorge clooney on er was it was everywhere that thursday night nbc black remember when george clooney was on friends with noah wiley and there was that crossover episode just seismic pop cultural stuff and i feel as old as the hills now i know um so but he was so tied to tv and to nbc and to like a you know a weekly procedural and covering like the contract negotiations you know he's a tv star and

then tried to segue into movies i would say the first five to ten attempts didn't go super well we'll talk about it we sure will and then kind of reinvents his movie strategy and becomes like not just a movie star but you know it doesn't work for him as batman but as the like muse of steven soderbergh and the coen brothers it does work for him and to like go from super mainstream er to to my best friend is Steven Soderbergh, I mean, it says a lot to what people were willing to forgive in the 90s. Our memories were not as long as they are now. We didn't have the internet, so we allowed people to change. But that was pretty remarkable. Yeah, you could straight up bomb like three or four times if you were as charming as George

Clooney and people had as much of a relationship to what was his name? Dr. Ross? What was his? Yeah, Doug Ross. Doug Ross. And Doug Ross was a legitimately great character. He was like hang dog, a little unlucky in love, like a little overcommitted to his patients. It was like, why is this guy bachelor? He's got a little premature gray going on. He's got this flirtation with the Julianna Margulies nurse character. There's something going on between them. Will they or won't they? But he did just kind of seem like a TV star to me. My opinion of him in the 90s was not like this man must be Cary Grant now. I've always I always liked him. I always felt connected to him, but I don't think I could have predicted specifically the way that he would

have used his own taste, frankly, to elevate himself. And maybe we should use that as the entree into talking about it because he's had a few phases, right? So he's got this nineties phase where he's working it out and he's trying to pick mainstream projects.

He's trying to figure out, should I be a rom-com star? Should I be a superhero? Should I be a part of the Tarantino revolution? Should I? And then he kind of slowly it dawns on him that maybe auteurs and great filmmakers is really the people who he should be entrusting his movie career into. And then kind of lets his persona get a little bit more flexible.

He gets a little bit goofier in his acting style he's having a lot more fun it seems like than when he was in say the peacemaker and that's really where he becomes a big star you know he gets to he helps auteurs become mainstream and he helps then the the filmmakers help him become credible as a movie star. And that virtuous cycle basically sets the road for him for the next 15 or 20 years. Where do we find Clooney now? What do you think of him now as a movie star and a famous person? Still love him. He's like the elder statesman.

And he's the elder statesman of Hollywood's the elder statesman of hollywood the elder statesman of movie stars and and and he does um he has been a political activist and kind of works especially like international human rights has aligned himself uh over time and so as statesman a little bit in the in the political sense, but like old school Hollywood liberal left type statesman. And he still knows how to give an interview. He still knows that being the movie star is a little bit about showing up and giving people a bit of what they want. And in return, you get to do a little bit of what you want. You know, it's funny funny like it midnight sky is definitively not my favorite george clooney performance because he's just wearing a very large beard and just looks like i mean he's the hang dog the whole time looks so sad yeah i mean it's it's sad and i

guess he is again he's exploring a parent a parenthood angle through all of it, but he's in the movie because he has to be in the movie to get it made. You know, that's, he never made it to a place as a director where he doesn't also have to have his face on the poster. And I'm sure that's a source of frustration to him, but I also give him credit for being like, okay, I'll just, I'll do it. I'll play this part so that I can do what I want. You know, he has really receded from view as an actor in the last few years. Obviously, he has become a father and he got married to Amal. And, you know, he's raising a child and seems extremely wealthy because raising two children. Because he also sold a liquor brand with his friend Randy Gerber for like a billion dollars.

Castamigos, baby. He does not have to work if he does not want to. sold a liquor brand with his friend Randy Gerber for like a billion dollars. Casamigos, baby. He does not have to work if he does not want to. And this is the first movie I believe he started in about four or five years. And you're right. He's definitely, the only reason he's in it is because he needed to be in it to get it off the ground in the first place, presumably. And it's funny. I mean, 59 is not that old. It's not like he's done or anything like that, but it does feel like it is way less of a priority. I'm kind of interested to see if he has like a Paul Newman-esque back nine or back three where he spends his 60s and 70s exploring more interesting acting work that is meaningful

to him. Yeah, I have no idea what he's going to do. But shameless plug, my husband, Zach Baron, did profile him for GQ. And I can't remember whether this is in the story. But I do know that one thing that he told Zach was just kind of like, I'm a little bit tired of acting. And because I have been doing it for 35 years now. I mean, if you think back to Facts of Life, he has been doing it for my entire lifetime. And he's kind of like, it just gets a little old. And so that's why he's directing because it's new things to do. So I don't know who can say whether he'll rediscover it in a different way in 60s or 70s, or maybe he'll just be like, I sold my tequila company. I have found love late in my life to someone who I'm completely nuts about in a great

way. I am the parent of two children and I'm just going to do what I want because I'm George Clooney. That is kind of the magic of George Clooney ultimately, is that he is conveying this sense of, I just, wouldn't it be fun if we did it this way? How about that story that Zach got him to tell about giving away a million dollars to 13 of his friends? Oh, yeah. That's the absolute greatest thing in the universe. The duffel bags and the way that he did it. Yeah, if you haven't read that story, go check it out.

It's a testament to the George Clooney aura, right, too, which is that, of course, he's this kind of benevolent, easygoing, but also very thoughtful and charitable figure. And also the lord of pranks you know he's been profiled many times over the years with all these great stories about what a character he is on set he he knows what to do again he like he has the anecdotes my favorite anecdote from the george clooney profile is just like his angry letter writing campaign like he's greenberg you know and i'm just like it's okay if george Clooney has grudges and writes angry letters, like cool, I can too. But he just knows you give a little bit and he is like, he's a great quote. He's very thoughtful. I think that's a characteristic of his acting, but also just his person. And you know, you're going to get like a good amount from George

Clooney, just enough. And then you go on your way. Yeah. It's one of those great personality tricks where he's the most handsome, successful, and often seemingly most intelligent person in the room most of the time, but he's always self-deprecating too. Like he is kind of never standing on ceremony unless it's about the tragedy in Darfur, for example. Otherwise he's's just kind of deflecting. He's just kind of pushing off, which is kind of sort of his movie persona, though not entirely. We were talking about Frances McDormand earlier this week and what she did in Nomadland and what her career represents and what kind of actor she is. And I think Clooney is kind of in the same league where whenever you see him, he's not a transformational actor. He doesn't play someone you've never seen before.

He's not Daniel Day-Lewis, for example, to mention a contemporary. He is Clooney. You are frequently just going to the movie to have a Clooney experience because you like being around him. You know, he's like Denzel. He's like Meryl Streep even, who is, Meryl Streep's a transformer, but you're really going for Meryl Streep. And I like that kind of acting.

I don't know if that kind of acting is as prevalent as it used to be. I don't really know what the mode of stardom is right now. I wouldn't know how to describe it. It's superheroes. It's, you know, this person is Captain Marvel or that's a person, right? That is a human played by Brie Larson.

Right, okay. Or Captain America. That's the one I was going for. Or, you know, Buzz Lightyear, the origin story of the human, not the toy. that's a person right that is a human played by brie larson right okay and or captain america that's the one i was going for or you know buzz lightyear the origin story of the human best bit ever i told the story the other day of like you trying to explain to your like young nephew the tweet about buzz lightyear the person and not the toy it's really good stuff but like you know that's the lore surrounding one of our biggest quote movie stars is like a joke tweet about the origin story

of like a made up, but now real toy. As opposed to George Clooney being like, let me tell you about my villa in Lake Como, which just, I can't believe it took me this long to talk about Lake Como, but great, great aspirational stuff from him being like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to go live in Italy. He is living, I think, most people's vision of a best life. And that's part of the reason why I

think we still have this strong relationship to him. It's not just his movies. It's what he represents. It's his version of success. And he's an interesting guy. He's from Kentucky, and his father was a journalist and a newsman, and he's related to Rosemary Clooney, the legendary singer. And so he comes from a showbiz family, but he also seemed to have struggled for a really long time as an actor. His early credits are movies like Return of the Killer Tomatoes and Red Surf and Grizzly 2 and all of this hugely forgettable movie work. We're only going to be talking as we build the Hall of Fame about the movie work.

So no ER, no facts of life. I feel really bad. I just feel Juliette Lippman being really mad at me, but this is a movie podcast, so no ER. Juliette has plenty of outlets to talk

about her love for ER. This is not one of them, gratefully. We're not going to talk about Catch-22, the miniseries adaptation of the Heller novel that he made a couple of years ago, which I did not finish. I was going to say good because I have not seen it. And we're probably not going to talk about most of the movies he made up to 1996, which is right around the time when George Clooney decided he didn't necessarily want to be Dr. Doug Ross for the rest of his life. He wanted to be a movie star. So why don't we start there? For those of you who have never heard a Hall of Fame episode, we're picking 10 movies. We got to pick 10 movies from this guy's legendary career. They can either be movies that he has

starred in or movies that he has directed. We're not choosing movies that he produced, even though he is also a very successful producer, including a winner of an Academy Award for producing the movie Argo. He and his partner, Grant Haslov at Smokehouse, I believe his production company is called, have done some really good work. They produce a lot of Clooney's movies. They've produced some other movies. He and Affleck have an interesting partnership over the years that is a bit unspoken. They both also have played Batman, which is notable for a variety of reasons. That says something about the psyche of the male movie star. But let's start in 1996, Amanda, and we're going to just do some debating. Now, I find this to be a difficult proposition,

choosing the Hall of Fame, but you don't think it's going to be so tough. I do feel like I have some clarity about which George Clooney movies speak to me and which are important, but I am sure that you're going to complicate it. And there are even kind of a few where I'm going to let you decide. I'm coming to this with a spirit of generosity

and diplomacy, just so you know. Okay, well, we'll see how generous you are when I tell you that I really want From Dusk Till Dawn to be in the George Clooney Hall of Fame. Were you anticipating that? Slightly, yes. Okay.

But go ahead, speak on it. Am I that predictable? Well, okay, so this is really the first big mainstream movie that Robert Rodriguez directed. It's based on a screenplay, or it's the adaptation of a screenplay by Quentin Tarantino.

It is a crime getaway movie that transforms into a vampire movie. And it is a true grindhouse homage. If you like exploitation movies, this is a movie. This was like me getting indoctrinated into a brand of 60s, 70s and 80s movies

that I love because this movie is one big wink at them from all the casting, Tom Savini, Michael Parks, Fred Williamson, all the figures you see on the periphery of the movie, Cheech Marin, obviously, the music, the Robert Rodriguez style, the Tarantino dialogue. And Clooney at the center of this movie is really weird. He never made a movie like this again. He never made a movie that was this genre focused, that was this idiosyncratic, that was this violent, that featured him in such a kind of a despicable role. I mean, he's a thief and a murderer and a vampire killing badass in this movie. And I'm so interested in him even just choosing to do this

that it feels extremely notable to me. And it feels like it could have been the start of a very particular kind of movie star career that he clearly opted out of when we talk about the next movie he appeared in. Yeah, I think this is fine if you want to make this the early Clooney, the 90s Clooney pick.

I think that there's a more courageous, more visionary pick to be made, but it would also be stretching the definitions of the Hall of Fame. So when we get to it, we can discuss it. But it's fine for now. Okay. For now, we are putting From Dusk Till Dawn in the George Clooney Hall of Fame. I love this movie. I cannot claim to it's- I'm happy for you. I don't know that it's a great movie, but it was an entryway into a room that I really have never left, frankly,

I'm being completely honest. Next up, One Fine Day. Absolutely not. I don't know if you've seen this- So you're not a fan. I don't know if you've seen this movie recently. Um, on paper, this is a movie about George Clooney playing, I believe he's a newspaper columnist,

and Michelle Pfeiffer. And it's a romantic comedy set in New York City and involving the Circle Line. I learned about the Circle Line from this film. I rewatched it in quarantine. My friends and I had one of those, like watch a movie and text about it. Appalling.

It's just, it doesn't make sense. He and Michelle Pfeiffer, like watch a movie and text about it appalling it's just it doesn't make sense I he and Michelle Pfeiffer like do you have nice chemistry but it is it's like gross 90s sexist and I say that in the context of all 90s rom-coms are like slightly sexist and have relationships but his character is just not appealing I think they were trying to make it a little less saccharine than your average rom-com and it just doesn't land so no i i was not expecting that i was expecting you to love it i've seen this movie a few times but not in a long time so i don't even really know how i had the same thing my memory of it was very fond and then i we all watched it because you know we picked it for this group out he just being like oh george clooney michelle pfeiffer sounds great and we were just like what is this i don't think it's necessarily george

clooney's fault um and i like that he picked a rom-com it just doesn't work i don't remember was this movie a hit in any way it was a hit 97.5 million dollars one fine day interesting okay george clooney and michelle pfeiffer did. It's not in the Hall of Fame, unfortunately. 1997, two important releases here, Batman and Robin, the second Joel Schumacher

Batman movie, truly one of the worst movies of the 90s. George Clooney is immensely embarrassed by this movie and is unafraid to discuss it at length anytime you ask him about it

because he hates that he was in it. He did not like it. There has been some effort to reclaim it as a camp classic. I resist that effort. I, I'm going to do something that I hate when other people do,

but I'm just going to do it. I'm going to just share a theory that I shared on letterbox about this movie. Are you ready? Oh, great. Yeah, go ahead.

This is not a good movie, but it's arguably the most important movie of the 1990s. And the reason for that is it was not a big success and it was critically reviled. And I believe that it inspired executives in Hollywood to more carefully manage their IP, to not empower the wrong people to direct big, noisy comic book movies because what comes in the immediate aftermath of this two to three years later, Bryan Singer's X-Men, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, and then Christopher Nolan's Batman movies. And that is really what changes movies. That is what changes this whole industry. The thing that we talk about all the time, I think is a direct reflection of the mismanaged 90s comic book movies. And so unfortunately, this movie is very important. It just isn't good. Let me one up you when i was talking about movies that should be in the hall of fame if we're visionary and courageous

and want to expand hall of fame this is essential to the clooney narrative like essential he plays batman's it goes terribly and then he latches on to soderbergh and the coen brothers and everything great afterwards without batman and robin there is no out of sight there is no Ocean's Eleven so also I saw this in theaters and like thought it was pretty funny this was my first Batman movie just if you want to know Amanda's relationship to comic books it was like oh George Clooney and Alicia Silverstone are in this yeah why not I'll go explains why uh you don't like comic book movies very much. If this is your intro, I must say Clooney is like not that good and very disengaged from this performance as Bruce Wayne. He's the third Bruce Wayne in the span of like five years,

but Alicia Silverstone and Chris O'Donnell are abysmal. I mean, they are just terrible in this movie. Arnold Schwarzenegger, obviously not a serious thespian by any stretch. His performance as Mr. Freeze is actually camp and Uma Thurman, who is basically just playing Barbara Stanwyck as poison.

Ivy is incredible. She is by far the best part of the movie. I like, I like how you're thinking though. Let's put it in for now. Okay. As a means of importance, this would,

you know, George Clooney does not know we are alive and never will, but if he were to ever look at this and see that we chose this for the hall of fame, I'm sure he would be mortified. Next up the peacemaker. I think this is if he were to ever look at this and see that we chose this for the hall of fame i'm sure he would be mortified next up the peacemaker i think this is who he wanted to be i think he wanted to be a robert redford meets bruce willis style star you know a dashing action star who could have a romantic lead, international intrigue, you know,

like a big top movie like this seemed to be the exact, on paper, this was a movie that was like, this is the movie that will vault him out of TV. Maybe Letter directed it, who went on to direct

a number of films, Deep Impact, lots of episodes of The Leftovers. Seems like it should work. It's really, really boring and not good. The Peacemaker's out. 1998, The Thin Red Line.

He has a very small role in this movie. This is a really interesting Terrence Malick World War II film that has a massive sprawling cast and is the beginning

of the new phase of Malick movies. I think Clooney thought he was going to be in more of the movie than he actually was. Isn't that always the way? That is the way with Malick. So I don't think it makes sense to put this one in the Hall of Fame. Okay. That's fine with me. I didn't remember that he was in this and then

tried to rewatch part of it and was like, this is inessential. It is inessential to this conversation. Exactly. Not to the, just to Clooney. Out of sight. I got you. No brainer. Might be the best movie in his whole career. Out of sight. I got to. No brainer. Might be the best movie in his whole career. We certainly named it the number one Soderbergh movie.

My husband and I were having this argument last night about like kind of the best Clooney versus like the quintessential Clooney. And I think this is like the essence of Clooney. Everything that you need to know about George Clooney as a movie star, as an actor going forward is here and out of sight and it starts and out of sight. Okay. What do you think about Three Kings? David O. Russell's portrait of three thieving soldiers during the Persian Gulf War. Extremely important to the Clooney narrative because famously there was a lot of conflict

between Clooney and David O. Russell because Clooney did not love David O. Russell's manner and behavior on set and sort of appointed himself as kind of the stand-in and the person who pushed back against David O. Russell and they um there was a lot of friction and that I mean that's like a famous story and that's famous to the movie itself and it's also kind of you can see Clooney's self-conception or the myth of Clooney kind of solidifying a bit in in that story as well so in that sense I'd argue it's really important. I'll be honest, I did not rewatch Three Kings for this movie because you have a lot of thoughts

about it and I was just going to kind of let you decide. Wow, you're going to let me cook? Yeah, go for it. So I don't have a whole lot to say that I haven't said before on this show. I really love this movie. I think it's really clever and smart and indicates a direction I wish David O. Russell followed more closely in his career. This and Huckabees are by far my favorite of his movies. And I just don't think it's one of Clooney's great performances. I think it's good. I think he's good. I think Wahlberg is good. Ice Cube is good. Spike Jonze is good. It's a good movie and easy to return to and enjoy and see the kind of the way that they're playing with

genre and the way that they're playing with tonality in the movie is very interesting to me but it isn't like it isn't a highlight reel movie to me so it may be ridiculous to put Batman and Robin in from Dusk Till Dawn in the George Clooney Hall of Fame and not Three Kings so maybe just for the sake of conversation we'll put in for now

but it feels like it's feels like it's on the periphery to me. Okay. Deal? Yeah, that's fine. Let's talk about the next one, which is The Perfect Storm. And I kind of don't think you can do both Three Kings and The Perfect Storm, but I feel like we're going to make a lot of people mad if we don't do the perfect storm even though the perfect storm to me is more Wahlberg and and Diane Lane and Chris doing the Diane Lane speech I re-watched the Diane Lane speech just on YouTube it's really amazing how close Chris's impression is to what really happened in the perfect storm but the perfect storm is a big movie and it like it was very successful and and like mainstream and in terms of getting in front of a lot of people is i think important but i don't know if it's essential to him i well so i think if batman and

robin is the most important movie that he made then perfect storm might be the second most important because because of everything you just said it was a huge hit and it had, it gave him a kind of cloud. I mean, this is a few years out from ER now and there's no guarantee, you know, making out of sight, which was not a big box office success or the peacemaker,

which was a bomb or three Kings, which was well-received and well-regarded, but by no means a big movie, it was a little, it was a little like, will he or won't he for Clooney as a big movie star and this was a massive natural disaster

Wolfgang Peterson movie with a bunch of movie stars and he was at the center of the poster in addition to that giant wave. So, I think it's got to go in

if that means Three Kings goes out so be it. It's tough though because I love so many more movies we have to talk about here. This is why I think

this is going to be hard. Whether they deserve, whether they belong is tough. Well, that's why deserve whether they belong revisit some of them but that's why i just think like you know take three kings out like i don't think we need out of sight three kings perfect storm right in a row to encapsulate that period and three kings is the least essential of them to me okay oh brother where art thou what say you I was gonna let you do all the Coen brothers well there are varying degrees of quality right um this one is might actually be my it's not my least favorite of the Clooney Coen brothers combos but this has never been my favorite um I but I think I know for a lot of other people it is their favorite and that in my least favorite of the Clooney-Cohen brothers combos, but this has never been my favorite. But I know for a lot of other people, it is their favorite. And in part, that was because

of the soundtrack and the power that the soundtrack had. And also, it's this Odysseus-style tale of a man trying to get back to his family, and Clooney is doing a different kind of acting style. It's where he develops this like wide-eyed goofball, you know, overselling Coen brothers, monkey figure. And it's good. It, you know,

it, it creates a partnership that is obviously really important for him. So I think it has to go in. Okay. I mean, I, it seems to me when we talk about his other coen brothers uh collaborations i prefer some of them but he is like in the less essential coen brothers films you know he and it's and it's

cool because he's getting to have a lot of fun and i actually like that goofy side of george cluny um but it doesn't really feel like when you're sitting down to make a Hall of Fame about either of them that the collaborations really fit. And I guess O Brother Without Where Art Thou is like taken the most seriously out of all of them. We can debate that with one other.

I think that's right though. I think even in the other ones that he's in, he's probably not the most important person in the movie and he is the most important person in O Brother. So let's put it in for now okay oceans 11 i mean has to be without question um obviously a beloved object of popular culture between the two of us

confessions of a dangerous mind 2002 this is his directorial debut he also has an acting role in this movie which is a portrait of chuck barris the gong show host and purported cia agent who was played by sam rockwell in this movie um it's this movie's a little uneven to me and it's not my favorite and i what i really want to see is the spike jones directed version of this movie from the original charlie kaufman script one of the controversies around this movie is that Kaufman does not like the movie because Clooney changed the script a lot. Pretty much, right?

Yeah. It's not bad. It's pretty entertaining. I looked back. I looked at some of it. I watched about 30 minutes of it this week just to kind of go back to the tone that he was going for. And it's pretty accomplished for him as a filmmaker, I think, for 2002 as a first effort.

But it's just not a great movie. I agree. I did not think that we would spend this long talking about it. Okay. 2002 Solaris. We just talked about this. I think we both revisited this and really like it. Yeah,

I do really like this. It doesn't have a huge reputation in part because it's a remake of a legendary Tarkovsky movie. And it does a lot to kind of whittle back what the Tarkovsky movie did think it's like a 90 minute movie and the tarkovsky movies like three and a half hours and it is a very um patient uh existential look at relationships and loss and science fiction and really is i mean it's weird to me that he made the midnight sky after having already made solaris because solaris i think says what the midnight sky is also trying to say and it did it 20 years ago and more economically so i love

solaris i don't know how we could actually fit it in here given how many more movies we have to talk about but i do like it i agree with that i think that everything that he's doing in solaris he does elsewhere in with some other things that make it more memorable. Not that this is not memorable. I really like the film. But, you know, sometimes people are doing big ambitious things and sometimes people are just doing things because they want to try

something and this feels like a want to try something and it worked. It does. One of his first producorial efforts is notable for one specific reason. It's called Welcome to Collinwood. It's a 2002 crime comedy. And it's in the tradition of like the Ealing comedies from England in the 40s and 50s.

Has like some Alec Guinness energy. It's notable because it was directed by Joe and Anthony Russo, who turned out to be the shepherds, the stewards of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And Clooney was way ahead of the curve on the Russos. This was really one of their first big breaks before they were directing episodes of Community, before they were considered the future of filmmaking in a lot of ways. They have a movie coming out next year that we barely talked about, which is called Cherry. Clooney was there. Unfortunately, Welcome to Collinwood is not that good.

That's okay. Look at everyone now. It's Welcome to Collinwood is not that good. That's okay. Look at everyone now. It's the real Paul Rudd. Look at us. You know? That's right. Everyone made it. 2003 is Intolerable Cruelty.

This is one of those Coen Brothers movies that is considered a lesser tier, a lower tier. I'm actually a big fan of this movie. I think it's pretty funny.

It's an homage to a certain kind of Hepburn and Tracy, two big movie stars going kind of nose to nose and then falling in love kind of a movie. In this case, Catherine Zeta-Jones is his counterpart. But its fandom is cultish. It's not actually a Hall of Fame worthy entry, I don't think. Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't mind it. But, you know, there are other Hepburn, Tracy homages that I feel more passionate about.

Ocean's Twelve. I'm not going to be an asshole. I think that this should have been top five Soderbergh. And I think that George Clooney is wonderful in this and that we can make room for other things. But I'm still mad at you. And I want Steven Soderbergh and everyone else to know that Ocean's Twelve

is a miraculous film. You should watch it over the holidays. It's wonderful. Amazing how despite the oncoming Christmas holiday we are

not putting a miracle in the George Clooney Hall of Fame. 2005. It's more of a rusty movie. The first one's about Danny. The second one's about Rusty. You know. I agree with you.

Good sense has prevailed here, Amanda. Thank you. Thank you for your grace and your humility and your decency as a podcaster. It's all appreciated. Anytime.

2005. Good night and good luck. Just rewatched this movie last night. Pretty good. Very, a very celebrated movie at night pretty good um very a very celebrated movie at the time uh this is a portrait of edward r morrow and the team at cbs and the cbs news division that essentially stared down joseph mccarthy during the mccarthy kind of red scare hearings and black and white way before mink trying to capture that era in a very

particular style. Um, and while Clooney who plays Fred friendly, the legendary producer for Murrow and partner, um, has a very like scaled back performance. This is very much his, this is probably his most personal film because it's kind of an homage to his

father who was a newsman. And it came in the right in the heart of the George W. Bush era, where the relationship between politics and media was quite fraught. And as our country was going to war in various countries in the Middle East, there was a lot of confusion about what role the media should be playing during that period. And this obviously comes from a place of passion for Clooney. I thought it was solid. I was a little surprised looking back. And it was quote unquote timely.

And I think that's why it was so celebrated. But with the exception of David Strathairn, who plays Murrow in a great, great, great performance, the movie is a little bit like a Wikipedia page to me. I mean, great performance. The movie is a little bit like a Wikipedia page to me. I mean, it does. It uses a lot of archival footage. And I will grant you that the last 20 minutes, like, aren't as, you know, climactic as I don't know the last 20 minutes of any film should be. That's just kind of how putting movies together works.

I think this is the Clooney source code, certainly for his directing. And to an extent, like what he conceives of a leading man and what he thinks of the movies. You know, it's an homage to a time period and an old Hollywood style that he's clearly very interested in. I think like politically it is his, it's his speed, which you can see in the films and outside of the films. And I think he just, there is a gravitas to all of it

that I think he brings to his performances pretty naturally. And other directors like figure out a way to iterate on it and bring new things to it which is cool um and then the gravitas seems to be what he is seeking and pretty much all of his directed works with i would say limited results the rest of the time but it's really important to understand his body of work i think that's a strong case for putting it in. So for now we will put it in. Okay. 2005, Syriana. I also revisited this film. This is a film that is important because this is the movie

for which George Clooney won his Academy Award for best supporting actor for playing a rough approximation of Robert Baer, the CIA agent who wrote a memoir about his experience working as an agent in the Middle East called See No Evil. This movie is written and directed by Stephen Gagin. And much like Good Night and Good Luck, it was a very quote unquote important movie at the time that it came out. And there are parts of this movie that are important and that are very interesting. And there are parts of it that I find to be very quite,

quite, quite bad and quite like white people explain the Middle East to American movie going audiences. And it's funny. I mean, this is so often the case. quite like white people explain the middle east to american moviegoing audiences and it's funny i mean this is so often the case there's a movie that we're going to talk about soon that is so clearly george clooney's best performance in my opinion and um this isn't that movie and no one ever wins the oscar for their best performance you know that's what i was gonna say this i think like this is i i actively chose not to revisit this. I'm sorry to admit that I didn't do my homework, but I reread the Wikipedia page and I was

like, nope, I'm not going to finish reading this Wikipedia page and I'm not going to rewatch this. I did have it. The politics, I was concerned that they would not hold up and or that they never held up because I don't really remember. And I just, I think, do we have to put it in if he won the Oscar for it?

I mean, that's, I guess he did also win a producing Oscar and he could win another at some point and we don't have to. We can put a hold on it. To me, I don't really want to. It is a good performance

and it is different from the traditional Clooney part, which is that he is completely turned down the charm. And there is something kind of morose and physical in his performance. You know, he's tortured in this movie, and he famously injured himself very badly and hurt his spine. And that led to him just seemingly having to manage an extraordinary amount of pain throughout the rest of his life. So it's significant. And he, quote unquote, earned thecar because of the difficulty of the performance it's just like this is not a very good film and it is it's so self-important that it's kind of a bummer and i think one of the best things about clooney as an actor and as a as a persona

is that he's so self-aware and he's so clever and charming and this movie like the idea of hollywood rewarding someone for turning off all the things that are great about them i just find so silly it just you know it like it it it protects the wrong ideas i i mean i agree put us in charge of the oscars. I'm available if anyone, if Steven Soderbergh wants to call me for my input this year, like I'm, I am here. You, you, here's the thing, Amanda, you're a married woman. Okay. You have to stop throwing yourself at Steven Soderbergh on this podcast. I'm offering professional help to someone whose work that I admire. My husband listens to this podcast. Okay. He doesn't like this line of discourse. So moving it along. 2006, The Good German. This movie is not going in the Hall of Fame. Correct. I look forward to seeing it again. I look forward to talking to

Steven Soderbergh about it at some point in the future, but not now. 2007, Michael Clayton. Five-star diamond film. Unreal. A perfect fucking film. Are you kidding? Just absolutely wonderful. He's terrific in it. It's a brilliant script by Tony Gilroy. Every single actor in the movie is dialed in completely.

Tilda Swinton, Tom Wilkinson, Sidney Pollack. Just an adult drama, the likes of which we don't get enough of and that you and I are kind of obsessed with. And we love a movie about a character on a mission, a person who's got a singular purpose is trying to figure out what their life is supposed to be about and what they're doing with it. And this is like a real embodiment of that. And Clooney is perfect as Clayton. It feels like almost a, I don't know, it's almost seems self-referential about what role he's supposed to be playing as a figure in the world of hollywood you know is he a fixer or is he

someone who's actually getting shit done and i don't know i just love this movie yeah and it also kind of uses the the movie star and also the the gravitas like george clooney characters are usually well they're very often criminals but they're people who are on the right side right and they're going to bring they're going to restore a moral order and they're going to they they innately even if they're not doing like quote like the right things or they're breaking the law or whatever like you you trust them because you trust him and you know this character kind of goes on a journey to find some of the quote right things but like the moral there are no more abs moral absolutes in this film i mean well there are a couple um till this one is on the wrong side of things

but great performance from her by the way but the michael claytonton character is figuring things out. And it's always cool to see a film kind of in conversation and an actor like in conversation and also developing new skills as a result. You know, George Clooney, like most of his acting isn't talky. It's presence. It's facial expression. It's control. It's kind of sitting there, stillness. And it helps that he has like maybe the greatest script ever written and certainly the greatest dialogue

ever written. God's own words, as Zach put it last night. But he also just is so comfortable in this dialogue. And it's cool to see him doing that as well. I just, this movie is so good. It's definitely going in the Hall of Fame. We've got to find another opportunity to talk about it maybe we'll get tony gilray on or something to celebrate this movie on an off year anniversary unfortunately for him he just ran into the buzzsaw that is daniel day lewis of the best actor race this is the there will be blood year this is the no country for old men year 07 is just the absolute best and he's terrific in this and it would i don't think it would have been just the absolute best. And he's terrific in this. And it would, I don't think it would have been outside the realm of possibility that he

would have won. If not for DDL, who, you know, is, is Galactus. He eats all other actors. Um,

2007, again, oceans 13. I like ocean 13. I don't think this is like a standout Clooney performance though. Yeah, I agree. 2008 leatherheads,

the less said about it, the better, not a good movie and this is kind of where the the worm turns for Clooney as a director I think where I think before this came out I was like this movie could be real good George Clooney's gonna take John Krasinski who was in a very similar position that Clooney was once in you know a really beloved TV star who you knew had a kind of innate charisma who was ready for something bigger and put him in a sports movie, a sports comedy, you know, a period piece should have been great.

It was not. I don't think I finished this one. Yeah. Uh, it's not a movie 2008 burn after reading. I think this is the only other Coen brothers movie that has picked up a huge reputation. I think this movie in the last 10 years has become a lot more beloved than it was when it came out. I think when it came out, people were like Clooney and Brad Pitt in a Coen Brothers movie. This is going to be incredible. Then they were a little bit let down or confused by what it was going for. But with some hindsight, if you look at the Letterboxd community, for example, this movie has a very high appeal. Not for you. I don't really care i don't know i love burn after reading

but i liked it when it came out have i ever told you that they filmed burn after reading like literally in the apartment building next door to me in new york when i was living there i don't think yeah the so they use brooklyn heights as a stand-in for a lot of washington dc and i i can't remember whom whose home it was was like it quite literally next door to it. And so I made friends with all of like the people on set. I never stole from craft services. I promise. I was like very responsible. But I also, I really like this movie.

I think it's very funny. But again, it's like, I like this for the Brad Pitt performance. It's Brad Pitt and Francis McDormand really are the movie. It's not, it's not Clooney's movie. Clooney's pretty funny in it. And he knows how to do the Coen Brothers wide-eyed goofy thing, but not his movie. So no.

2009, Fantastic Mr. Fox. Have you seen this movie? I love this movie. Oh, really? Yeah. I like two animated movies, A Charlie Brown Christmas and Fantastic Mr. Fox. That's not true.

I like Inside Out too. So that's three. I like three animated movies. Fantastic Mr. Fox just terrific this is Wes Anderson's stop motion animation adaptation of the Roald Dahl novel

and George Clooney voices Mr. Fox and this is also a father son movie in a lot of ways his son played by Jason Schwartzman

in an endearing relationship who plays his wife is it Cate Blanchett I thought it was Meryl Streep. Meryl Streep, okay. Is this a George Clooney movie? Well, yes.

I was going to make an argument for this because this isolates another hugely important aspect of George Clooney, which is voice. It's his voice. He has a singular voice. That's true. And it's definitely a part of the appeal. And it's all you get in Fantastic appeal. And that's all you get

in Fantastic Mr. Fox, but it really works. That's a really good case. I was not imagining we were going to be putting this one in. I would like to put it

in. I would like to put this one in as a like a curveball and an underrated one. And, you know, we can take out one of the weird ones that you put

in earlier for this one. What the fuck, man? We is we're negotiating take it easy um okay in 2009 again the men who stare at goats this was a movie that was directed by his partner grand haslov that i think has a great cast and is not that successful so i don't think this goes in i agree with you 2009 up in the air jason reitman's movie that i think returned clooney back to the four as a you know in conversation about who are the kind of our best movie stars this is a movie about a guy who basically fires people for a living works as kind of a corporate manager um i remember liking this a lot at the time and i remember my wife being

really a big fan of this movie too. I didn't get a chance to revisit it. And I know that obviously Reitman has, has been criticized a lot since this movie came out about the kinds of movies that he makes, which often end in these very nuclear family, happy endings. And I, as I recall that this movie also ends in that fashion.

Yeah. I don't like this movie. I didn't like it at the time. I like George Clooney. I like Vera Farmiga. I like Anna Kendrick, although sometimes she just makes me uncomfortable because of the types of roles that she is asked to play.

Just like awkward people who sing a lot. It's just, that's a tough road for me. But, you know, I take on a lot of the awkward discomfort myself. Yeah, everything that you said lot of the awkward discomfort myself. Uh, I, yeah, I, everything that you said about criticizing this, this movie's values. Um,

no, thank you. This movie has a lot of fans. People will be mad if we don't put it in. You okay with that? It's fine. I'm used to it. Fair enough.

2010, the American, which is a very good film in a different kind of a performance for Clooney you mentioned how he frequently acts without speaking this movie has probably his fewest lines of dialogue uh it's a rare movie from Anton Corbin the legendary photographer and music video director who's worked with Depeche Mode and U2 over the years he's only made a couple of movies um I like this movie I I don't think it's necessary. I think a lot of actors actually could have played this part because of how internal and physical it is and

how not charm oriented it is. It was an interesting choice for Clooney at the time, but not one of my favorites personally. I don't mind that people want to get away from their persona or their charm every once in a while. You got to do different things or else why are you an actor? But it's, you know, not, not Cork Looney for me. Agree. 2011, the Ides of March. It's a no from me, dog.

Did you rewatch this? No. I rewatched this a few months ago when Zach was preparing for his story. Wow. Wow. I think I remembered this being a little dicey, but I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt because let me tell you, I love me some Ryan Gosling and this,

I had forgotten what happens in this movie. Everything that I said about pacing of just kind of like things pop up out of nowhere here. I honestly don't know. I don't know how this happened or what this movie is about i mean i do but what on earth this movie was based on a play by bo willeman called farragut north yes it was loosely based on howard dean's run for president and i believe bo willem worked on that campaign and based on this experience willeman went on to write and create the U.S. version of House of Cards

and is a political drama special extraordinaire, I guess. This movie is another one of the, and there are a lot of George Clooney movies like this on paper, should have been unbelievable. The cast of this movie, in case those of you have not seen it in a long time, Ryan Gosling, George Clooney, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Paul Giamatti, Evan Rachel Wood, Marissa Tomei, Jeffrey Wright,

Max Minghella, Jennifer Ely. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the murder team right there. That's an incredible cast. It is true.

When you look at the cast, people want to work with George Clooney. Oh, yeah. That does speak well of him. I mean, I'm sure it's because it's like he's George Clooneyoney but it does seem like people really like him and like want to be on his set um it just doesn't work i will say without spoiling

all of sides of march which is a very wild movie that the climactic scene when uh he and gosling like face off in the in the hotel kitchen it's like oh if you could have made that the whole movie i would have enjoyed that but instead it's a melodrama i seem to recall there being a couple of good scenes like over the phone between giamatti and phil hoffman like yeah yeah yeah um but i haven't seen it in a while but it can't go in because it just i remember having a lot of problems 2011 the descendants i'm gonna say yes yeah i think i think this is the last truly great Clooney performance in the Alexander Payne adaptation of a novel

as a widower who is living in Hawaii trying to raise a family and cope with loss. A slightly different kind of performance from him, a little bit more bereft bereft a little bit more downbeat but also there's like a little bit of that clooney cohen brothers mania in it too um and i think it's just really good work i wish that there were just more movies that were like this personally um and i like alexander payne movies quite a bit so I would say yes yeah I would as well it's dad humor Clooney which is kind of funny and then what but he like has that energy a little bit and it's like he's

finally like coming home and then I think also as you said this was the last like wow George Clooney like great American actor performance for a while. Yeah. It was, this is the last. So funnily enough, he was nominated for best adapted screenplay for the ads of March this year. Um,

just wild. Uh, he was also nominated for best actor for the descendants. Um, and then the next year he won that Oscar for Argo, which we're obviously not granting in the Hall of Fame here. But that is where his career kind of takes a little bit of a shift. And what follows, 2013 Gravity, obviously a huge hit

and extraordinary Alfonso Cuaron visual experience. A movie that I like that I think has fallen by the wayside a little bit, but that's Sandra Bullock's movie. And he's a supporting character and he's comic relief. And it's basically just the tool to telling the story. It's like he's doing everybody a favor by being in the movie in a lot of ways.

So I say no to that. But what a great guy. Oh, yeah, sure. He seems like a tremendous hang. I'd love to receive $1 million tax-free from George Clooney. That would be sweet. 2014, The Monuments Men.

It's a no from me, dog. Yeah. This was the one where I was like, on paper, I should really, I was really going to like this. And I just don't know what happened. I don't either. This is kind of like a heist war movie comedy.

It just does not come together. This and leather heads together. I feel similarly. I'm like, I kind of don't even want to finish this movie. Um, speaking of slightly misbegotten work from talented people, 2015 is tomorrow land,

which was a, a, a, at the time, a very big Brad bird, live action movie mining kind of Disney IP, I believe from a script by Damon Lindelof and also just did not work. Seemed like needlessly convoluted and a little bit odd, honestly. And this is where I started to be like, what's, is George Clooney okay? Like what happened? He's trying things. It's okay. He's trying things it's okay he's trying things it's just sometimes movies with good ideas

don't work and he actually has a disproportionate number of them and he also has a disproportionate number of movies that did really work

like Ocean's Eleven you know like there's no guarantee that a remake of a Rat Pack Heist movie was absolutely going to work and it did

so we'll give him a pass 2016 Hail Caesar he's fucking hilarious in this Coen Brothers movie he is kind of a side player he's like the key figure in the action but he's hilarious in this Coen Brothers movie. He is kind of a side player. He's like the key figure in the action, but he's not in that much of the movie. But I do love what he's doing. It doesn't quite feel worthy of Hall of Fame to me, though. I agree. He's very good in it. And it's like the summation of everything he's doing with the Coen Brothers and what's fun about

it. But he's not the center of the frame, even though sort of he is in the narrative of the film. Did you revisit Money Monster? No, I never visited Money Monster. Whoa! I know, I know, which is really strange. I like everyone involved,

but it was one of those things that was so DOA that I just, I never traveled there. Very, very similar to me, to Wonderland, to the Ides of March, to the Monuments Men, to Leatherheads, where I'm like, on paper, absolutely.

Please make more movies like this. Money Monster, if you haven't seen it, and frankly, most people haven't seen it, is a movie that is directed by Jodie Foster and stars George Clooney and Julia Roberts. I know. And I haven't seen it. Isn't that crazy?

That is crazy. I had completely forgotten about it until you put it on this list. And I was like, oh my God, I never saw Money Monster. Furthermore, Amanda, George Clooney plays a Jim Cramer-esque TV personality. He's the guy who's telling you which stocks to buy on TV

and he eventually is taken hostage live on television by a grief-stricken bankrupt viewer played by Jack O'Connell. And, you know, of course, part of this movie is like a reflection of the financial crisis of 2008 and kind of what the

stock market does to people and just the demon work of the American financial system. And all of those are well-intentioned ideas in an American crime movie, but it's just a movie that doesn't work. And so often there are these movies that are just like, it's all there and then nothing is there. This movie has no legacy. When was the last time someone had a conversation about Money Monster out loud before this podcast? I think not even when it was released. We've never talked about it.

It's like you conjured it out of thin air and I was like, oh yeah. And then I even forgot to watch clips on YouTube. You know, I just like forgot about it. Why are there clips on YouTube? Who probably not, because no one knows what it is. I don't know. And if you've ever seen Money Monster,

please add AK Dobbins. She wants to hear from you. She wants to know that this movie actually exists. It's funny. It actually made $95 million. It didn't do that badly at the box office, but I don't remember talking to a living soul about it until just now. And then, so in 2017, Clooney directed Suburbicon, which is a movie that I also will not be recommending to the

listeners of this show. This is considered, I think, kind of one of the great failures, really, of the 2010s. It's based on a script that Joel and Ethan Coen wrote many years ago that was refurbished by Clooney and Heslov. And once again, this movie stars Matt Damon and Julianne Moore and Oscar Isaac. And it's bad. The tone is all off. And it's meant to be kind of a satire of 1950s suburbia and race and American politics. And it's kind of all over the place and a little bit incoherent. And that takes us to 2020 and The Midnight Sky. The Midnight Sky is not going in the hall of fame.

So should we, should we read recount where we're at with these things? Let's do it. Yeah. I think I want to say we have 11 or 12. So 1996 from dust till dawn, 1997, Batman and Robin,

1998 out of sight, 1999, three Kings, 2000, the perfect storm, 2000. Oh brother, where art thou?

2001 oceans, 11, 2005. Good night and good Kings. 2000, The Perfect Storm. 2000, Oh Brother Where Art Thou. 2001, Ocean's Eleven. 2005, Good Night and Good Luck. 2007, Michael Clayton. 2009, Fantastic Mr. Fox. 2011, The Descendants. How many is that? I think that's 11. Oh my God.

I wasn't counting while you were saying it, but I just counted it again. Bobby, you can tell us if we're wrong. Here's the thing. I thought we already took Three Kings out. So let's just take Three Kings out and have 10. We're taking Three Kings out and we're leaving The Perfect Storm

and Batman and Robin in. Don't you want to be interesting? Here, I'll give you another option. Would you like to take From Dusk Till Dawn out? I really like that movie. Okay, then keep it in. I've offered you a solution that's pretty... We're meeting in the middle here.

It's pretty civil. I feel good about it. It's representative. It's a little interesting. People are going to be mad because we have Batman and Robin in and we don't have the terrible up in the air. And it's fine. It's everything you want in a list.

Let's look at the landmines here. No Syriana and no up in a list. Let's look at the landmines here. No Siriana and no up in the air. This is going to be your fault when people are mad. It's always my fault. Have you like been in the world in 2020? Everyone just yells at the woman. It's fine. I'm used to it.

I expressed my opinions. I don't like up in the air and together. And you didn't fight for it. You didn't even like push back on that. You were, you just tried to outsource your critique. You were like, other people is going to be bad.

Why don't you stand up for yourself? Sean Bennessy. If you're mad, you can tell me right now. Otherwise we're not revisiting it. Are you saying that I'm straw manning? That's what you're saying. Yeah.

And I'm just saying you're being cowardly. Like make big decisions. Okay. Let's not get personal here. We're we've come to, we've come to very close to a solid agreement on 11 films. There's no reason to start throwing cowardly around. You just tried to blame me for everything. Instead of saying that we together collaborated on a list with vision and, you know, a bit of surprise.

And that's what you want. Hmm. Do you think Zach will be getting you any humility for Christmas this year like you're allowed to ask me that okay I I guess from dust till dawn has to

go which I kind of over three kings well three kings is a quote-unquote better film who cares we have Batman and Robin on this list I know but that's important I agree Over Three Kings? Well, Three Kings is a quote unquote better film. Who cares? We have Batman and Robin on this list. I know, but that's important. I agree. And you said that from Best Till Dawn was important.

Well, you know, they're supposed to listen to the whole podcast and go on the journey with us. So if they look at some words on a tweet and then yell, then shame on them. Here's the worst tweet I got today. I'm going to share it with you right now. Oh, great. We shared our best performances of the year lists on Twitter after talking about them at length on a podcast. And on that podcast, we also talked at length about Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. And the first reply to the tweet with all the names was, why isn't anyone from Ma Rainey's Black Bottom on this list? Right. Please listen to the podcast, please. Yeah.

I did actually, when we were, you know, doing all of the Twitter like art stuff, I was like, should we figure out a way to put in that this entire list was inspired by the podcast, which we said on the podcast. But when things are not presented in context, then people don't have all the information and they don't make good decisions. But we're making this list in context. So once again, Sean Fantasy, the power is yours. I think we should take off from Dust All Dawn. Leave three kinks. Okay. When you are awake tonight being like, I did not stick to my own convictions,

I just want you to know that I supported you. I think that's debatable, but I appreciate the sentiment. So let's just go through it one more time. Batman and Robin, Out of Sight, Three Kings, The Perfect Storm, A Brother Where Art Thou, Ocean's Eleven, Good Night and Good Luck, Michael Clayton, Fantastic Mr. Fox, and The Descendants. I'm having second thoughts. Do we need both Batman and Robin and The Perfect Storm, which are really avatars of box office rather than performance?

Well, the case we made for the perfect storm was that it clicks in. That's like what works after Batman and Robin like failed. And then that's his success. And that's, you know, he can do both out of sight and he can do perfect storm. Gosh.

Okay. All right. I mean, I've offered a lot of different options, but I think that there's pretty good reasoning for that. I'm not blaming you. I'm blaming myself and frankly, the vagaries of these stupid games that I've invented for this podcast. Okay. Well, I think that's a great note to end on. You know, we spent an hour and 20 minutes talking about a living legend and a person who brings joy and charm and lightness of touch to everything he does. And now we feel terrible about ourselves and people are going to yell at us. Thank you, George Clooney. George Clooney is terrific.

I highly recommend almost all of his films, if not all of them. Amanda, thanks for building the shrine as always. Let's go now to my interview with Care Carrie Mulligan and Emerald Fennell. I am delighted to be joined by Emerald Fennell and Carrie Mulligan. Guys, thanks for being on the show today. Thank you for having us. Emerald, I'd like to start with you because I'm curious about when you first started writing Promising Young Woman. What year was it and what was going on with you at the time? So I guess I first started writing it, thinking about it in kind of late 2016, early 2017.

What was going on with me at the time? I don't know. Nothing specific, except I sort of wanted to write something. I wanted to write a revenge movie, I think, about investigating what female revenge might actually look like. And I was writing a lot of stuff at the time about sort of anger, I suppose. I mean, I don't think I'm a particularly angry person, but rage, I guess, and how we express rage and what's distasteful about it and what's fascinating

about it. So, yeah. And so this film sort of then a girl on a bed drunk saying, what are you doing? Became, you know, sat up and was sober and said, what are you doing? And that was sort of the beginning of the movie, really, I think. Carrie, where were you? What were you doing when you received the script? I was,

uh, not doing anything, but I can't remember. Uh, it was sort of January ish time of the year that we shot it. And, um, yeah, I,

I, I had met Emerald the year, sort of a month or so before at a mutual friend's house briefly, but I didn't know. I think I knew that you were doing something. I didn't know there was anything. I didn't know there was a job for me in it. So I, um, so that was new. Um, and then, yeah, I read it and, and just loved it. And we sat down, I think like two or three days later, um, and pretty much got straight to work. Yeah. With something like this,

can you guys describe for me that first conversation that you have after Carrie, you've had a chance to read the script and you want to pick Emerald's brain and talk about the character and figure out what this film could be. What, what happens in a conversation like that? It's so funny because we, because I think neither of us can really remember.

This is what's so awful is that you think these huge moments in your lives are going to be the ones that you indelibly inked forever but actually it's so funny because we've had so many conversations about this movie over so long I remember most um being so impressed by uh Carrie's shoes. They were Gucci trainers, so I was also impressed by her extraordinary warmth. And I think the thing about this script is that it's quite, people were either totally in or it wasn't their cup of tea. So I think what was really great is when people were in, like Carrie was, you get kind of straight into it. It's not really the kind of film that you just like talk about where locations you would think of shooting in.

You know, it's very much like, let's get like right down into it. And I think we're both sort of, so we had kind of that sort of conversation I think yeah I mean I also like with the majority of jobs that I've done in the like last 10 years I haven't there hasn't been a huge amount of thought in that you know I've sort of known pretty much from reading it whether I was going to do it or not and I kind of knew walking in that I was that I wanted to do it and that I couldn't believe how lucky I'd been to be offered it. So it was,

it was about five minutes into the conversation where I, all I remember saying like, Oh, my agent's going to tell me off because I'm not meant to do this. But, you know, a hundred percent, of course I want to do it.

Like, thank you. Thank you. And then we just started talking. So it wasn't, it was so instinctive because the writing was so brilliant and, and knowing Emerald for five minutes was sort of it. That was it. Carrie, it's been a few years since you did a film where you were at the center of the frame the whole time, you know, where you were the complete and total focus. Is that something

that you were looking for and wanted to get back to? Or is it just you like this character and you want to do this story? I mean, not really. Yeah, it's not really ever a massive consideration. I just want to be, I just want to, you know, a really good, nice, crunchy part. So I was about to say it feels like I'm, felt like I had but maybe I haven't but I don't yeah I don't suppose I sort of I suppose I just don't think about it like that um and uh it was this was amazing because it was such a brilliant part but also it was so I was surrounded by great writing for for great actors so it was the rest of the script had all these brilliant parts

for other people. So we were getting these amazing actors who were just coming in to do like half a day or a day. And so, yeah, that was, I mean, that was kind of amazing. There was one day, I think we had like Molly Shannon in the morning and Alfred Molina in the afternoon or something. It was like ridiculous, ridiculous embarrassment of riches. You guys are the same age and you've both been professional actors and now producers. And I think the movie is probably going to be interpreted by some people as a kind of reactive allegory for what women have been going through in the industry that you've worked in for a really long time. I was curious if before you guys made this, if anyone tried to dissuade you from making the

film or what it was like to try to get the film on its feet. Well, I definitely don't think for me, certainly isn't an allegory about this industry. It was, it's much more. I mean, it's much more about the kind of general culture that I grew up with and that we grew up with and that everyone grew up with which was that getting girls drunk to kind of loosen them up finding drunk girls in bars or at parties um girls walking home on a you know walk of shame having no recollection of what happened to them the night before that was all all stuff that was treated as a gag. It was in, you know, we saw it in all of our culture as a joke, as something that was completely permitted in our society.

So, you know, certainly the thing that this movie is about, the very specific thing, I guess, as well as the more general thing is just how um yeah how what that does when a society realizes that something they've been doing for a long long time which they thought was okay or they wanted to believe was okay isn't I think kind of me too movement is much more complicated and specific and difficult thing of work and power. And, you know, I mean, all of it is part of the same hideous kind of misogynistic culture. But I do think that this movie is much more universal than that. It's about what lengths do you go to to seduce someone?

What lengths do you go to to get what you want? And, you know, and how do you feel when you find out something you've kind of always chosen to believe is okay is not okay? You know, that's, I suppose that's what the movie was kind of about. And as for people being kind of resistant to it, actually, well, again, a little bit like sending it to cast or to hods like

people were either in or they just weren't which is fine so i think we found with the producers and it was probably 50 50 you know half the people really loved it and half the people just you know liked it well enough but it wasn't a cup of tea or they really wanted to change that in elements. And so, yeah, so, so, so it was actually, it was, it was, it was, it was all right. It wasn't too, it wasn't as difficult as I, as I thought it would be. I don't think. Carrie, what's the first thing you do when you agree to play a character like this? Do you have a process for trying to figure out who this person is? Um, well, the first thing I start doing almost immediately is trying to do out who this person is um well the first thing i start doing almost immediately is trying to do an american accent which always fills me with terror so i immediately emailed

tim monick who i've been working with forever and say i've got to be an american again um help um and then yeah i mean a lot of this was really just a lot of conversations with Emerald because we just, you know, it was so important to figure out who Cassie was before all of this happened. Um, and we, you know, both think that she was, she was quite different. She certainly looked very different. Um, and, you know, figure out really what's at the heart of this, which was her relationship with Nina. Um, and so, um, you know, because it's such an act of loyalty, what she's doing, there's so much love in it. So we needed to sort of talk about what that relationship was and what that friendship meant to her.

And then, of course, you know, go through the events that sort of led her to this point. But yeah, it was really the majority of the kind of prep was just the two of us talking about it and sort of making lots of decisions and figuring things out. Tone and style are a huge part of the film. And it's a real balancing act between, like you said, this revenge thriller and this comedy and almost satire at times.

How much of the way that the character dressed, the music, the way that the film looks was on the page and how much of that came afterwards, Emerald? Well, I think a lot of it was on the page to the extent that a lot of the music was in the script that kind of ended up being in the movie. And I hope I'm kind of a bit weird with stage directions I am quite spartan about them I think they're often firstly I think people often skip over them so you've got to be short but sweet and so I try and use them more as a kind of tonal steer rather than interfering with like direction or you know I'm always a

bit wary if I see a single tear slides down her cheek I think that's up to what's up to her when it when it slides down if it's like that so it's sort of that kind of stuff but but I hope that what it is useful for is to set the kind of general tone of a movie um you know because it's it's your sort of opportunity to be kind of conversational having said that it was quite a difficult tone to really explain to people. So I sent, you know, certainly to Carrie and to lots of people, a mood board, quite sort of thorough, relentlessly thorough mood board. What was on the mood board?

There was lots of pastel manicures, to die for um sweet valley high um the shining it was it was sort of mostly sort of technicolored sort of somewhat heightened ultra saccharine feminine references virgin suicides things like that so it's sort of i wanted it to be clear that we weren't going to be in a very sort of serious, gray, raining world. We were going to be in a kind of very, like Cassie, a very beguiling, super feminine, super innocent, fun world where you could feel comfortable and, you know, comfortable to take your shoes off before we like tickle your feet. And then, I don't know, cut them off.

Carrie, what was it like for you to be surrounded by all these comic actors? I feel like this is a fairly uncommon thing for you in your career. And even though the movie does have obviously a lot of intensity to it, it's mostly comedians and comic actors that you're working with yeah it was so much fun I loved it about three or four days into working with Bo I was I I was kind of I just couldn't believe how much fun I was having I was like this is just the best oh my gosh we laugh all the time I love it what have I been doing um it was yeah it was so much fun and yeah I ruined so many takes and um got in trouble once or twice with them um but it was yeah it was amazing and I just think it's it's incredibly difficult um what comedians do and I think sometimes often comedians are just the best actors in the room um so you just have to be steadfastly truthful for it to be truly funny.

And Bo certainly was. I mean, all of the actors in the film were. And so it was a really, it was just so much fun. And it was great because, you know, there's darker scenes and stuff, but there wasn't a single day where we weren't sort of hysterical at some point laughing at something. so it was a it was a really fun set and it was funny because Bo was there doing like the majority of our stuff which is sort of rom-com delightful Paris Hilton dancing um and then he would go away and we'd do something serious and then he'd come back and we'd sort

of glare at him and get back into the fun stuff. So it was, yeah, it was just lovely. Emerald, why did you want to write a revenge movie? I ask that as somebody who loves revenge movies and wishes there were more of them. And I feel like they're more a thing of the 70s and the 80s and not as common these days. So just curious to hear you talk about the genre well i i mean i have a thirst for vengeance which will never be slaked i think well i don't know we there are a lot of revenge movies or i feel there have been a lot of revenge movies and i i'm like you i absolutely love the genre and i think it's like one of the most satisfying genres there is. And actually you find that it's a genre that people know very well, it's very well worn, and therefore it's kind of very ripe to be subverted

because you're following a kind of path where people feel safe, I guess. But as much as I love revenge movies and find them as cathartic and pleasurable as everyone else does, I've never seen a revenge movie with the women at the centre behaving like a woman might behave if they wanted to take revenge. And I guess for me,

that's so bound up in, you know, in wish fulfilment versus kind of reality. And so I was sort of, I just sort of wanted to think, like, what would I do? What could I do? And there's not much I could do physically because I'm grotesquely unfit and also a woman.

So, and women, generally speaking, are not likely statistically to resort to violence for many reasons, some of which are examined in the movie but I could you know do something maybe more troubling which is what Cassie does which is frighten people um and so that seemed like profoundly troubling to me and I guess this movie this movie is kind of it is about what it is but it's also about what happens when a good person what happens if you're a good person who gets a knock on the door one day and somebody at the other side of the door tells you you're not a good person

I think for all of us in these revenge movies we have very clear villains clear heroes we're not used to being the person on the other side of the door opening the door and I think that's kind of I hope what this movie will feel like to a lot of us who grow up you know in this culture which is that we've been we've been hiding behind that door for a long time pretending this stuff is okay and that that's what felt interesting to me about this yeah about this world because it's both fun and also horrifying carrie you have a an executive producer credit on the movie and i was wondering if you also wanted to scare people if there's something about the work that you guys did that like that part of it that appealed to you i mean honestly um it's probably not the done thing but i i feel like the executive producer

title was very much a gift for you know i i don't feel like i played the role of producer really i i it looks like terribly hard work um but i yeah i'm just going to quickly caveat that because Kerry's so modest. The reason Kerry very deservedly has a producer role is this, this is a very, you know, this is an independent movie that we shot in a very short amount of time

with a low amount of money. And it attracted lots of people enormously because of Kerry, because she is astoundingly brilliant and somebody that people will bend over backwards to work for. And so therefore, an enormous amount of getting the movie made, which is what EPs do, was down to Carrie. And so she deserves that EP credit.

I don't know, I reckon you had that with the script. You had people lining up to do the script. But anyway, let's fight about that later um but but yeah i mean i just wanted to i just wanted to go where emerald was going you know i just wanted to sort of be a part of her uh idea um and uh i found it so exciting and hilarious and dark and, you know, I just, yeah, anything to just sort of be a part of that, you know, was appealing to me. Emerald, you were the showrunner on season two of Killing Eve, but this is your first feature film. Was there anything different about being in the director's chair? What kind of surprised you about doing this work? I think, yes, everything, absolutely.

Because, well, the role that I had on Killing Eve was much more of a British role, which was lead writer, which was very, very much like predominantly a writing role. So which is something I'm kind of used to doing. Directing is, yeah, I think it's, what's frightening about it is you have no idea until you've done it. The only way of knowing if you can do it or not is doing it. And so that's, it's a little bit like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of something kind of like free climbing or something.

Like there's no theoretical really. You can plan and you can be meticulous about you know preparation and things but yeah but so I think I was surprised I was surprised by um how much I enjoyed it I think probably which is sort of it's sort of a bit like saying my main flaw is I care too much or something but I mean like I was I was genuinely surprised that I thought I was going to be I thought I was going to be running on kind of fear and adrenaline. And of course, there is a certain amount of that. But mostly, I was so happy to be there. I was so grateful to be there and working with all these incredible people that I loved it.

There is a thorniness in the movie. And it's obviously going to be and has been for those who have seen it divisive it's going it's a it's a conversational piece um i'm curious will you guys be tracking that conversation i'm sure you've been exposed to it you know at sundance and amongst people who've seen it in your lives but when it goes into the wider world and gets debated, do you, will you look at that? I mean, Carrie's shaking her head. No. Carrie,

do you want to give? No, I mean, no, that, that is just a terrible idea. I just don't want to know anything. I just want to.

Yeah. I, I actually, you know, thus far, um, haven't sort of had any conversations with anyone who has but you know maybe no one's telling me the truth but i i don't um no i don't have any desire to

to sort of engage with that at all i think um just drive you mad and i and i you know people are so um you know entitled to to feeling and i think it's it's it's good that it evokes strong reactions and that it causes you know debate and people will disagree and that's all good stuff but it's probably not good because i feel so personally attached to it um to to yeah for me to be in sort of engaged with i don't think it's a smart idea emerald what about you no completely i mean i think you'd have to be a masochist to look. It's a bit like, I mean, I was thinking about this earlier, like it would be like going to a dinner party

and then hiding behind the curtain instead of leaving and waiting to listen to what everyone thought of you, whether you were sexy, whether you were hilarious, whether you were too much, tiring, bad breath. Why would we want to know any of these things? I think that, you know, especially it's too late now. We've made the thing and we're so, I mean, well, I can speak for myself. I'm so proud of it.

And it's so close to the thing in many ways, so much better than the thing that I wanted to make. And it's the thing that felt right to me. And so there was no changing it and there's no and and it would be bonkers to try and you know you can't change you wouldn't want to and you couldn't necessarily change people's minds so then you'd just be a sort of impotent bystander watching people sort of criticize your sort of like your everything about you. It'd be awful.

The other day, it's a bit like putting your baby into a beautiful baby competition and just being like, do you think my baby is beautiful? And people saying, no, it's not actually the ugliest baby we've ever seen. Like,

no, I don't want to, don't want to know. I think the movie really cleverly satirizes the idea of male victimhood um but i do think that there are going to be some men who feel attacked by the movie and i was wondering what the men in your life think of the movie and like what kind of feedback you've been getting the men in my life haven't seen it yet which is a sort of sad um result of the way things have panned out and that we haven't been able to have a premiere. I mean, we screened it at Sundance, but I was there on my own. So

none of my men have seen it. My men are waiting. Well, firstly, I think if you feel attacked by this movie, that's a really good indication of somebody who might need to take a second look at why that is actually, because I think the movie is actually pretty even handed about like who it's talking about and what it's all about. But yes, I'm the same as Carrie. I mean, no one's seen it. My husband's seen it. And obviously, I mean, look, he's completely biased. It's, it's like asking if my dad, my dad also loves it, but unfortunately I can't put what they say on the poster. I wish I could, because both of them think

it's the greatest film ever made. But there was, but actually, no, actually, a friend of mine did see it, but a very early cut. And it's somebody I was at university with. And he looked a bit freaked out afterwards. And I said, you're right. And he said i feel like you were watching us wow you know but that's the kind of response that's

you know it's all we're talking about so it people should be free to be honest i think emerald there are several callbacks to one of my favorite movies ever also directed by a actor turned director Night of the Hunter greatest film so I would just want to hear you talk about why you did that well well I mean a few reasons mostly like with kind of a lot of things when you're making an independent film out of necessity, I needed to find something, a bit of footage for Cassie's parents to be watching. And I kind of liked the idea of a TCM kind of afternoon. But I think that speech from Night of the Hunter, which is the speech that he gives, which is,

oh God, now hang on, my brain's gone. It's about women, their things, perfumes, smelling things things lacy things you know in in the kind of rage that he feels against it's just such a kind of neatly horrifying thing um and so it kind of fit very well there and then um and then that that we also use a song that one of the children sings and it it's such a haunting, chilling song. But it's also about, it's a kind of allegory about two birds. And it felt very kind of close to Cassie and Nina.

But also for me, Night of the Hunter is kind of the perfect film and the thing that I love most, which is where something feels very real and very allegorical at the same time. It's a movie that like, couldn't be more stylized. It couldn't be more heightened. And yet the emotion that it gives you is so,

so kind of real and visceral, you know, so much more visceral than anything completely realistic that, that it just felt like, yeah. And I just love it really. So it's sort of, for a few reasons it's in there, but mostly because I think it's the greatest film and i just love it really so it's sort of it for a few reasons

it's in there but mostly because i think it's the greatest film i love it too i was happy to see that um you know we were sort of alluding to this but obviously the movie is not going to be released in the way we might have hoped because of what's been going on in the world i'm wondering how you guys are feeling about that about the idea of most people seeing it at home and just the circumstances of release. Yeah. I mean, on a selfish way, I feel bummed out to not be able to do all of this together, just being able to be with our cast. We've been doing lots of SAG Q&As with everyone in their own living rooms and not being able to sort of see Alison and Laverne and Brie, Brie, who's Brie? Bo. Alison Brie. Sorry. That's what I was talking about. Yeah. Like not being, not being able to do it, celebrate it together. I think part of like

releasing things is that you get to be together with the people that you made it with and you get, you know, that's sort of fortifying and lovely um particularly when you all got on so well which we all did um and I think yeah there's it's definitely you know it's it's so the the cinematography the design the way that it's crafted is is so special and um it's obviously ideally seen on a massive screen um with people with people around you and um so it's a it's a shame but we got over it pretty quickly didn't we yeah the thing is is that like you do make it's difficult because films so much of like making making anything is about the context that people are going to watch it in and you do and you know we really did make this film hoping that people would watch it communally because part of the sort of stickiness and also part of like

comedy and horror I think too is that kind of mutual together feeling and especially with this movie where you sense like you know there were different moments where people were unsure whether they could laugh whether they had permission to laugh some people were shocked some people what you know it was just it was very you could really feel the you could feel what was happening kind of together mutually so that so that kind of is that kind of sucks but having said that you know it may be that more people are able to watch it at home and therefore that's a good thing too you know but as Kerry says you get over it pretty quickly because so many I mean this year has been you know it's not this is not

even like a millionth on the list of important things. So yeah, you kind of get over yourself quite fast. It does strike me as the perfect go to see the movie with your partner and another couple, and then go for a drink and then debate and fight and talk about how much you liked it or didn't like it or what it made you feel. So I guess that's unfortunate. Maybe people can do that over Zoom. But it does make me wonder, you know, you've worked on TV. Carrie, you did a TV series a couple of years ago. I'm kind of curious where you see the work going in general, because it does feel like films like Promising Young Woman are less common. TV series, miniseries are much more common because of streaming services and

all the things that have been happening in the industry the last few years. I'd be curious to hear from both of you guys where you see the work that you're doing going and where you think you'll be spending most of your time even just in terms of format i mean i for myself i kind of love the idea of doing you know 10 10 hour long episodes with emerald um only with Emerald though. Oh, that'd be lovely. Creepy. So, and I, you know, I did TV a couple of years ago. It was really fun to have, you know, four hours, six,

I can't remember how long it was. I was tired, but, you know, to make something. I think it was four. It was four, yeah. To have, you know, to be able to spend time with the character is really nice and so i can definitely see the appeal and all that kind of stuff i suppose from a life angle it's um uh it's it's more of a commitment in a time you know with having a young family i think broadly you know the the the reason it's been such a draw for actors for female actors is that just it's the the roles have been so um great and um people have been creating their own work um I mean it feels like Frances McDormand with Olive Kitteridge was sort of one of the first of mini series that really had such brilliant female characters in it from hers to Zoe Kazan and these like extraordinary female

roles and performances and um and so all of this work being generated by people who are sort of setting up production getting these series done um is amazing it's totally appealing as an actor um but I think you know it it what Promising Young Woman goes to show is that, you know, you can, of what like incredible high quality you can get with the right filmmaker and the right writer, even with a tiny budget and no time at all. You know, it sort of basically makes, it's remarkable to see like this level, this quality of work is just sort of, it's possible if you have the right person.

And I don't think anyone in the world could have done this apart from Emerald, but I do think it's, hopefully, you know, when independent films like this that really come from a nothing budget end up having quite a big platform like this film has,

I think that that should be an indicator to people to put more faith and more money into independent film because it really can you know attract a big audience if it's good you just kind of have to focus on it being really good which obviously Emeril did. Thanks mate I mean it's it's sort of interesting isn't it I think it's the wankiest answer in the world but it just depends what the story is and what it, because for me, you know, I'm doing like a West End musical that I'm writing. And, you know, I'm writing a TV thing and some films too. And I think it just,

all of them just felt like the right medium for that. There's so many opportunities. Yeah, there is an embarrassment of riches now, actually, when it comes to making stuff. And I think that, in a way, can be a bit overwhelming. Also, I think the pleasure of film is that it's contained and that what you leave out is as important as what you put in. The problem is with any series, or not the problem, but the loveliness of a series is you can go really, really deep.

But, you know, inevitably, the longer it goes on, the more explaining one has to do. It's not the sense that we can get in film suddenly of just a sort of little glimpse into a world, you know, and then the curtains being shut again, and then you're kind of forced, you're confronted with your own reaction to it. You know, we get much more, I don't know, that sounds very pretentious and it is quite pretentious,

but I think I love films because they're finite as an audience member and as making them you know kind of like things to be short but sweet yeah I'm we talk about films mostly on this show so I'm with you I hope you guys both make more films um Emerald what about for you you know you're appearing on the crown right now you've been acting for a long time do you think you'll spend more time as a creator and and carry to that, I'm curious if you'll maybe try to produce more films in the way that Emerald was describing and take on a slightly expanded role in the making of movies and TV shows. Well, I love acting. It's just such a source of pure fun and joy.

But it's also completely and utterly on you know somebody else's schedule and so at the moment with other things going on and like Harry with a young family it's very difficult to to have something in the diary that could change at any minute that you know so that unfortunately means that for the foreseeable it's quite unlikely but. But I also, I mean, I think I've, to a fault, maybe this year, will pretty much say yes to anything. So, you know, I'm just waiting for somebody to offer me. My name in this film is Blowjob Lips Makeup Tutorial. Maybe, you know, someone will offer me something as good as that

I'll say yes Carrie what about you do you see yourself producing maybe writing directing anything like that in the future I'm such a one-trick pony that's the problem I'm sitting here with Emerald who's like an author writer director producer. No, I don't know if it's my thing. I love the feeling of reading the script for the first time and knowing that I can take ownership of that role. And I don't like seeing too much behind the curtain. I don't think sort of the part of the fun for me is like the mystery of it and the excitement of it and um there's so much day-to-day um in the sort of admin and logistics of being involved in production that it sort of boggles my mind but

you can also be creatively brilliant at the same time as having to handle like spreadsheets I just don't know how people do it um so I don't know if it's really my thing for now and maybe that will change but at the moment I think my sort of you know I've got two kids and I'm I've you know still getting used to making decisions to go and work and not be with them all the time and that's quite feels quite wrenching um and so um I think I sort of yeah feel and and it's just not my interest I think if it was something that I felt passionate about then you know it would be a totally different thing it'd be much easier but I just don't I don't feel passionately about producing I feel like such an actor for hire um and if that feels like such a, I just,

and I love that so much. It's all like the most fun. So I think for now it's sort of, that's my only focus really. Guys, I'll let you go with this. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? What are you watching in quarantine? Both of your eyes just lit up when i asked that question i just watched minari oh yes please talk about it it's wonderful right so beautiful it's so beautiful i just loved it i haven't loved a film like that for such long time and i just thought it was so beautiful i can't even use any other words to describe it and the performances are so amazing.

And the kid is so cute. I just want to eat him. He's adorable. Yeah, I just loved it. It just felt like a sort of soothing balm to 2020 for me somehow. But yeah, that. And I just watched The Last Dance finally, which is, I've never been interested in basketball in my entire life. It's a documentary about basketball. I was looking confused. What compelled you to watch that, Carrie? I love that you watched that. It was, well, my husband had watched it and been obsessed with it.

And I sort of ignored him and let him watch that whilst I watched Feet back in the beginning of the year for like the 90th time. And finally, I sort of ran out. Oh, I watched, I watched, what else did I watch? I watched something and I sort of felt bereft afterwards. And he was like, oh, try The Last Dance. And I was like, babe, I don't care about basketball. I won't understand it.

And he was like, no, it's just a really solid documentary. You'll love it. And I absolutely loved it. And I couldn't believe it. And I just, I felt, I felt equally bereft when that was over. And I just want to watch Michael Jordan all the time and um honestly it's so good and the score is amazing and it makes you oh it's I just loved it so that those two Minari and The Last Dance are my two latest things those are

fabulous I love both of those what about for you Emerald I don't know how you can top The Last Dance Emerald but that was that was I I thought you were talking about Save the Last Dance. You immediately thought of Julia Stiles. I knew where your head would go. I mean it's quite late to catch up on that film but... I mean I love Save the Last Dance too obviously. Of course. So I mostly have been watching a BBC cartoon called Hey Dougie. The only thing that is on in our house, regrettably, because I'm a terrible mother, 24 hours a day, more or less. So when it's time to have a break from that, I saw Zola. Have you seen that yet?

I have. I saw it when I saw your movie it's so because I didn't get to see it Sundance and so but but I uh I just think it just blew my mind I thought it was so brilliant so funny and gripping and sort of just I it's just like nothing I've seen before and I just loved every second of it actually I just I was really like thrilled by it just made me laugh it just it was sort of wicked and brilliant and then and then I just and then I just saw Palm Springs which I hadn't seen because in England it's not been released yet have you seen it no I really want to say but I don't have who it's yeah exactly so it hasn't come out in England yet. It's maddening, but so

cheeky, you know. So nice. It's just so romantic. So, the chemistry is so easy. The premise is just, it was just like exactly what I wanted from a film this year.

And kind of felt the same way about Zola it felt very like actually weirdly considering um Palm Springs is sort of quite inert because of what it's because of the premise it's felt very live I felt very live watching both these films I wanted to go to a wedding and meet a stranger sorry my husband, I've lived forever in one time you know falling in love with a sexy comedian and for Zola I just wanted to kind of I don't know just put on a sparkly dress and do some terrible things like it's just something I just now all I want to watch is stuff that feels like super visceral. I think it's going to be a big year for sex on screen. And hopefully off.

Congratulations on Promising Young Woman. Thank you so much for doing the show, guys. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Bye. Thank you, guys. Thank you to Carrie Mulligan. Thank you to Emerald Fennell. Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. Thank you to Carrie Mulligan. Thank you to Emerald Fennell.

Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. Thank you to Bobby Wagner. Thanks for listening to The Big Picture. Please stay tuned. Later this week, we will be back. That's right, three episodes in one week. The only reason for that is because Wonder Woman 1984 is coming to HBO Max. And we have a lot of thoughts about that movie.

We will see you then.