The Big Picture - The Golden Globes Nominations: Surprises and Snubs | The Oscars Show (Ep. 104)

Episode Date: December 6, 2018

Reacting to the Golden Globes nominations, including surprising love for ‘Vice,’ chaos in the category definitions, pleasant surprises and alarming snubs, and why we love Sandra Oh and Andy Samberg as hosts. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Oscars. Amanda, it is 8 a.m. in rainy Los Angeles, and of course we are here for just one reason, which is the goddamn Golden Globes. The nominations were announced this morning, and frankly, they are as ridiculous as ever. Perhaps, I shouldn't say that. Maybe they're not as crazy as they have been in the past when outwardly bad films were nominated, but there were some head scratchers this morning. Would you agree?

Yes. They are silly, and there are a lot of things to talk about. It's total chaos. At the same time, they are not chaotic and ridiculous enough to totally discount. We kind of have to talk about all the implications. Yes, so we're going to do that. You know, we'll talk about it mostly through the prism of how this will affect the Oscars, which is an award show that, you know, is only slightly less silly, but we care about a hell of a lot more. Let's talk a little bit about the biggest categories first. You know, the thing that really jumped out to me this morning was a lot of love for the movie Vice, which technically speaking, we are not allowed to talk about because we are embargoed. This movie is not out until Christmas Day. We saw it a couple of weeks ago together.

It's got six nominations, including Best Picture in the comedy category. It also has three acting nominations, including a very surprising one for Sam Rockwell, which we'll talk about a little bit. What did you make of the big vice love? This is the most nominations of any movie. Yes, I think it's not surprising for a couple reasons. I mean, first of all, maybe we're under embargo and I'm going to get in trouble here, but this is category fraud. And it's such blatant category fraud that I enjoy it. You know, it's a

real, it's like chutzpah to just be like, yes, a dark comedy or a satire, not even dark comedy, a satire about Dick Cheney and how terrible he was is or is is going to be a comedy. You know, it's like one of those things where people see Steve Carell and they're like, must be a comedy. Like I did not laugh very much during Vice, even though there are funny aspects of it. Notably, I was sitting near you and you laughed every time Steve Carell was on the screen. So yeah, I like Steve Carell. I think you rightly identified that he's basically just doing Michael Scott in a Donald Rumsfeld wig. And you know, that's funny. I'm still into that. It's nice to have Michael Scott back. Yes. But everything else in the movie is largely about the utter destruction of our society over the course of the last 15 years. So not exactly a laugh riot. I do think that there is the possibility, though, that this much recognition for the movie, which, you know, I have heard

rumblings that it will be received somewhat mixed critically. This is actually probably helpful for its Oscar campaign. I do think it is. One thing to note, and we should talk more about the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, which is the mysterious journalism body, sort of. A cabal. Yes, that hands out these nominations. But one thing to note is that it is a organization of international journalists. And a thing that international audiences and journalists like

are movies that, quote, explain America, right? And does Vice explain America? Yes and no. And I think we will have a lot of think pieces and discussions about that in the coming weeks. But I think to an outside audience, it's like, oh, OK, here's this mess explained. body, then I think it'll be more mixed within the actual, within the United States and also within the people who vote in the United States. So this is kind of like Vice is a Golden Globes-y movie, which is not something I would have expected, but it makes a little sense. It makes sense in retrospect. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that you can also make the case that both Green Book and Black Klansman, which had five nominations

each, operate in a similar fashion. You know, they're movies that kind of explain a tension that from the perspective of someone living in another country would be like, oh, well, this of course is what America truly was like in 1960 or 1975. And it clarifies why race is such a hot button issue in America now and at that time. And, you know, regardless of kind of what you think about those movies, they obviously are spotlit in a big way by the Globes. You know, I'm not really sure that the Globes necessarily have a big impact on box office, but something I tried to identify in the piece that I wrote about this morning is

just this whole award season is about conversation. It's about the movie being in front of people. And we talked a couple of weeks ago about Green Book kind of slipping away from people a little bit because it was a little disappointing at the box office. Now we're back in a sort of like, actually did okay last weekend, and now it's got all these Globe nominations, and maybe Green Book is back. And, you know, this is like a thankless cycle where we kind of talk ourselves into and out of things for three months so that we have this meat grinder content going at all times. It is really funny though, because the HFPA is like just not respected. And not at all. It's so funny how much energy we put towards this award show. And we've, we've woken up so early to have this podcast. Here we are. Because of these people who,

you know, are mostly unknown to the public at large and who, you know, there's this complicated history of, let's just say like undue influence on some members in the past. They're famously like Pia Zadora is the person that people pointed to many years ago and she was given an award for a terrible performance. But, you know, I pointed out in my piece as recently as nine years ago, the tourist, the Johnny Depp, Angelina Jolie movie got three nominations. Like the HFPA is a joke. It totally is. They're known for nominating anyone recognizable. They just want movie stars. And part of the reason that the Golden Globes is considered like the fun awards show is

because it's both movies and TV. We're not going to talk about the TV nominations except to say that they're terrible. Really bad taste. Tough year for TV. But it is, you have a lot of famous people in a room. It's the circular tables. Everyone's drinking. It's fun.

It's the movie, you know, it's the movie star awards. And they lean into that and they will nominate the tourists just so Angelina Jolie will show up at their awards show. And there are flashes of that in these nominations, but they have always had the reputation of being kind of the Hollywood-obsessed movie star-chasing awards show. And it makes it hard to take them seriously. There is a Brie Larson acceptance speech that is burned into my brain

when she won the Golden Globe for Room. And everyone does thank the Hollywood Foreign Press, but she, in her very Brie Larson, polite child actory way, is like, thanks the Hollywood Foreign Press and talks about how special it was to meet every single one of you and take pictures with you. And it really highlighted the campaigning and the personal nature of many of these awards. Yeah. And that's a thing that we'll also probably be talking about. People win often on the merits of their ability to be charming in person with voters. And that's something that happens at a series of parties and gatherings. You've already

seen if you follow the awards bloggers and the awards podcasters, many of them are attending, you know, the governor's awards or the sort of the Academy unveiled its plans for its new museum, which will open next year. This earlier this week, there were a lot of people kind of glad handing there. There are people who emerge as ambassadors of moviedom of Hollywood, and those people tend to do very well at these kinds of awards. You know, I would say that this year's lineup is interesting to me. I don't think there are, of course, like the Emily Blunt's of the world who are just, and the Bradley Cooper's of the world who are famous people that people want to watch on TV that are in big movies that we love. I'm glad that that still exists. I think it's obvious that those people are both worthy of some awards

consideration and also are probably really good at the stuff you need to do to win awards. There's a couple of weird things happening at this one, too, though, that I'm not totally sure, like, John David Washington and Lucas Hedges, two actors who I think are really good and have very exciting, promising careers, are necessarily like, I got to tune into the Golden Globes to check out what John David Washington's going to do. I think that's true. They do. First of all, John David Washington, we should note, is the son of Denzel Washington. Fair point. A lot, every single member of the HFPA knows. But also, awards shows and bodies do like to have that sense of

we're knighting the next generation. And so I think that they've locked in on those two people. I think also, frankly, and we should talk about this more broadly, but when you split up the drama and the musical comedy categories, which the Golden Globes do, everything has to, you have to pick a category, you get more acting nominations. And so they are making a space for younger people, which is nice. Also, Lucas Hedges was in like 18 movies this year. So he was trying so hard. It's like you got to reward him for something. He's worthy.

It's not, it's really not about that. It's just one of those fascinating things where, of course, everybody's excited about Lady Gaga and also like Lucas Hedges. It's like Bill Simmons has this old joke about the NFL promoting Thursday Night Football as like a week 16 matchup between like Bengals, Ravens, tune in, you know, like the utter like anonymity and disinterest in most people most people have with these people and I think there's some of that in some of these nominations and we'll go through them a little bit more deeply as we go along but you know you mentioned this

the category split the drama versus the musical or comedy and the opportunities that that presents for ridiculousness and also a little bit of expanse. Like, I like seeing more movies recognized here. In particular, I pointed this out in the piece that I wrote. I like Crazy Rich Asians, and I like the idea of it being a part of this awards conversation. So it was cool for that movie to get a couple of looks, and maybe it will have some impact in the Oscars.

I doubt it, but maybe it will. Constance Wu was awesome in that movie. It's cool that she got a nomination. It's weird, though, some of the choices that were made. You and I were trying to figure out as recently as yesterday why both A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody submitted in the drama category, and they both got nominated for Best Motion Picture Drama. So the answer of why they both competed in the drama category is because they both got nominated. Yeah, that's why. I think A Star is Born makes more sense to me.

And they announced that they would be competing in drama a couple months ago. And that's just a real, like, we want to be taken seriously. We want a Best Picture Oscar. And we're going for it. Because traditionally, the best drama category at the Golden Globes is the pipeline for the Oscars. So that makes sense to me, even though one could say that it is category fraud, but it's fine. Everyone is making things up. Yeah, the assignation of musical or comedy has always been really loose. And while Bohemian Rhapsody is a dramatized version

of the life of Freddie Mercury and Queen, the only thing that redeems that movie is the fact that music is playing and it's incredibly exciting when the music is playing. So it's just really odd that it's not considered a musical or comedy or not considering itself in that way. And yet, for a very arcane reason, which we'll go into in depth, it did get nominated for Best Drama. Yes. As our producer Bobby pointed out, he only laughed three times during Bohemian Rhapsody.

So in that sense, sure. Why not? Yeah, I guess it was dramatic. Yeah. And on the flip side, as you mentioned, Vice listed itself under comedy or musical, and I don't, you know, I'm a little torn on whether that's accurate or not. I get

why it happened. Obviously, Adam McKay made Step Brothers. Sure. He knows his way around the comedy. There are jokes in it. Yeah. I mean, we're hemmed in here by the fact that no one's seen it. It's also boring to talk about a movie that no one has seen, but there are many comedic elements to it. I think it's really savvy that they put it in a comedy because now it has six nominations and we're talking about it. And I don't know that that would have been the case in the drama category just because no one's seen it. And when you start thinking of it as a drama, then you have to interrogate, you know, the drama category has a very serious film and understanding underneath it. And I don't know

that will be the conversation around Vice. So I get it. Yeah. The other one that's there that is, you know, kind of controversial, not really. I mean, I don't know if I laughed more at a movie than The Favorite this year, but there is something also like grave and serious about The Favorite as well. And it really toes the line, I think, between, you know, if we can call The Favorite a comedy, then I'm not totally sure we've been properly identifying comedies throughout the history of time accurately, you know? I think that's true. And this is like an ongoing debate in the television world that, again, we're not going to get into.

Can I give you my 605 hot take? Yes. I love the chaos. Let's embrace it. This is great. Because the comedy category traditionally has been a joke, and it's just the lesser rands and the participation trophies, and no one takes it seriously. It has not been a great year for capital C comedy as we know it

in terms of Will Ferrell movies, or even though Will Ferrell is in a movie coming out in December. So let's go with it. It's fun. It makes the comedy category better. You have basically a total split now in terms of best picture favorites, because we'll talk about Roma in a second, but you've got A Star is Born in best drama. You've got Vice, which is now somehow a favorite, which is fascinating in comedy. The favorites lurking.

You can't do anything. It's just, it's a mess. Let's go. It's fun. I'm with you. Let's just talk about the 10 movies then that are in Best Motion Picture Drama and Best Motion Picture Musical Comedy. It's Black Panther, Black Klansman, Bohemian Rhapsody, If Beale Street Could Talk, A Star Is Born, and then in the next category, Crazy Rich Asians, The Favorite, Green Book, Mary Poppins Returns, and Vice. I think it's possible and probably even likely

that those are the 10 nominees for Best Picture, except for one thing. No Bohemian Rhapsody, which isn't good. Yes. And replace that with Roma. Why isn't Roma here? It's not here, which I did not even realize until this morning, because the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, a foreign voting body, says that foreign language films are not eligible to be nominated in the best motion picture categories. Why? I don't know. Alfonso Cuaron is nominated for best screenplay and best director, but Roma is not nominated. It's only nominated in the best

foreign film category. What? It's baffling. It's unbelievable. Well, it's just, it's completely nonsensical. I mean, you pointed out when we were discussing this earlier that, of course, the HFPA has Hollywood in its title. It's a Hollywood body. It wants to celebrate things that are truly Hollywood. But Roma, just because it's in Spanish, doesn't mean it's not Hollywood. Alfonso Cuaron's last movie was Gravity. He's already a Best Director winner. And this movie was made by Netflix.

I'm with you i this makes it has little internal logic in terms of the golden globes and being as you know fixated on hollywood but otherwise it makes no sense the only thing i'm actually like i was at 6 15 in the morning just to kind of in the bylaws of the golden globes which is just a tough situation to be in but the way it's phrased, it's like category I of section 10 of the 2018 Golden Globes laws. This is terrible. Motion pictures that qualify for the Best Motion Picture Foreign Language Award also qualify for awards in all other motion picture categories except Best Motion Picture Drama and Best Motion Picture Musical or Comedy. So essentially, they're making you choose between best foreign language and best picture, which in a way, I guess, makes some sort of sense.

It is weird that Roma will be running in both at the Oscars. Except for the fact that they'll be handing out the best foreign film award within the first 20 minutes of the show, and they'll be handing out the two other awards at the end of the show. All you need to know about what's quote-unquote more important is in the timestamps of the awards being given out. I agree. And I mean, I think that Roma should just be

allowed to run as Best Picture and not be in the foreign film category, even though it technically, you know, I don't know, it becomes, I guess they're just making you choose one. And I suppose as a stand against category manipulation, that's great, except literally the whole rest of the Golden Globes are category manipulation and jokes. It's such a weird notion to include this rule. I don't understand what it solves for.

Maybe in the event that a film like Seven Samurai came along, that people were just like, well, what we have now is a world historical classic. And this is one of the most important films ever made. Maybe to disallow a movie like that from being able to compete so that they could get like Mary Poppins Returns in there. That's why they designed that rule. But as we were discussing, I mean, there hasn't even really been cause for this in America where a foreign language film was a serious contender for best picture in over 20 years. I think Life is Beautiful was the last time a foreign language

film was nominated for best picture at the Oscars. Yes. And it was not even recognized at all by the Golden Globes. No, we spent a lot of time looking at Wikipedia pages this morning and couldn't find it anywhere. So what's this rule for? I have no idea. Okay. I mean, it's nonsense. It is strange to me that no one thought about it for at least five seconds before this year, because you could see the Roma train coming for months. It is also typical of the Golden Globes that no one thought about it for at least five seconds. Very, very true. And we're obviously taking this incredibly seriously, and it does not deserve to be taken this seriously, but it does reveal the kind of oddity that surrounds so much of the decision-making

around these things that we take so seriously. There's a whole business, a whole industry around covering these things. And Roma, which, you know, if I'm being honest, is definitely one of the one or two best movies of the year and one of the most sort of affecting films I've seen in a long time, can't compete at the most relevant award

in this award show? I don't know. Okay. It doesn't make any sense. Hold on. But let me just, let me turn this around. I mean, it's nonsensical and it reflects poorly on the Golden Globes and we can't take them super seriously.

Makes it more fun. Okay. Because now we have no idea what's going to happen in any category. And then we start again the day after the Golden Globes and we'll have some more information, but the race will change again. If we have to do this until February 24th, which we do, then, you know, let's make it interesting. I'm all for making it interesting. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor, and we'll come back with some stock up, stock down in the aftermath of the Golden Globe nominations.

Support for today's show comes from the new film, If Beale Street Could Talk. If Beale Street Could Talk is, above all else, a love story. From Barry Jenkins, the writer and director of the Oscar-winning Moonlight, comes a soulful drama about the power of love. Based on James Baldwin's acclaimed novel of the same name, this moving story embraces the triumph of love and family. See if Beale Street could talk in select theaters on December 14th. We're back on the Oscar show talking about the goddamn Golden Globes. Amanda, stock up, stock down. We talked a bit about Vice already, but I think that there's an additional aspect to discuss. So obviously this movie is nominated for Best Director for Adam McKay. It's nominated for Best Screenplay for Adam McKay.

Love Adam McKay. Sam Rockwell plays the former president George W. Bush in the movie. He, of course, won an Oscar and a Golden Globe last year for Three Billboards Outside of Ebbing, Missouri, a movie that was not controversial at all and not stupid. And he's back and he's back at the expense of sam elliott who was not nominated for stars born were you surprised to see sam rockwell initially yes again it was very early in the morning but it makes a certain lot it makes sense in the logic of the Golden Globes because, frankly, he's basically filling the same slot he filled last year.

In many ways, Vice is to the Golden Globes what Three Billboards was last year, which is to an international body, it's like, oh, this explains America. And Sam Rockwell is the supporting character who's a total goober. Dumb bumpkin who does irreparable harm to people. Yeah, that is apparently popular with international voting bodies, which frankly, I guess I don't blame them. So, you know, it is unusual for people to repeat that quickly, like in the same year, but otherwise, I get it. It makes sense. I wouldn't have done it sam elliott

was wonderful it's so funny though how some some like an actor's identity can change right because for so long people always said sam rockwell man just put him in your movie to make your movie better you know he's like he's such an under-recognized person he's this great stalwart character actor it's very funny it's a great interview he character actor. He's very funny. He's a great interview. He's obviously a very smart guy. And all it takes is one Oscar for a jerk like me to be like, enough with Sam Rockwell. Get him out of here.

Sam Rockwell, I think, is quite good advice. It's more just the shifting tides of anticipation around whose time it is and whose time it isn't is something that we try to dictate ourselves but is often completely out of our control Sam Elliott is in a similar position I think to Gary Oldman last year where there's a sort of like body of work thing where Sam Elliott's been in a lot of films and television over the years I think he's been nominated for two globes previously for his tv work but never as a film actor and you know he's not he's not as famous as Sam Rockwell, but he's a key member of the most affecting scenes in A Star is Born.

And he's a good actor and people like him and he has a good reputation. And now all of a sudden I find myself invested in Sam Elliott's narrative. It's just a silly thing. Yeah. No, I am too. Though I will say the most effective scenes in A Star is Born are when Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga are on stage. Totally true.

You know, there is, it's, he's important, but it's not a really showy role. And especially in supporting categories, they love the showy stuff. Yes. So, you know. But him backing out of the driveway though. I know, men love that. You guys really, really love that. And that's nice for you? That's the, that is, that is the real shit. And I'm just hitting shallow again. Let's men love that. You guys really, really love that. And that's nice for you.

That's the, that is, that is the real shit. And I'm just hitting shallow again. Let's just blast it. Okay. Uh, so I guess Sam Elliott's stock is down. That's a shame. Let's talk a little bit about Black Klansman, which we haven't really discussed. I don't think at all on this show yet. And that's interesting. Cause I'm, I'm, I feel pretty strongly that it's going to do well at the Oscars. Uh, this, I don't know if this confirms that, but it makes me feel even better about it. You pointed out wisely that there's no screenplay nomination here, which many people seem to think it will get at the Oscars. In the same way that they split the categories here between comedy or musical and drama,

the Oscars splits the screenplay category from adapted and original screenplay. Black Klansman is up for Adapted. So there's some sense that it will be there. Two looks for John David Washington and Adam Driver. The Adam Driver noise had been going for a while.

I don't know if he's going to make it all the way to supporting. It'd be interesting if he did. A thing that would be not good is if the white guy got nominated from Black Klansman and then not Spike and not John David Washington.

That would be tough, but you can also see it happening. I mean, we saw it recently with Creed with Sylvester Stallone getting recognized and no one else from that cast or craft. And this does feel a bit like Adam Driver as the actor of a generation, which is already kind of that's building. Yeah. Which he is. And I think he's very good in Black Klansman but you have to watch out for the larger narrative it's very true

no Michael B. Jordan here in that category too and I would say that honestly Michael B. Jordan and Adam Driver are probably the two most exciting young movie actors that we have

and two people who I think there's a bit of have very deftly managed to take interesting parts in smaller movies and also take tentpole stuff and do interesting stuff with both of them.

And I kind of like to see both of them nominated in this category because I think it starts like an even bigger swell around why they're relevant. And to the point that we had last week on the show about kind of the absence of stars, like the Oscars does need, it needs more Michael B. Jordans. It needs more Adam drivers. It does. In general, Black Panther, it was shut out of the adding black panther was shut out of the acting categories which i think is a shame and it makes the best picture nomination feel kind of perfunctory as in like we knew we had to do this or else you'd yell at us but we don't really care which is a shame you should care hollywood foreign

press you want movie stars, watch Black Panther. Yeah, there's some serious thought among people that I've spoken to, particularly a couple of voters that I've spoken to, who think that the movie has no chance in any of the acting categories. And if it doesn't, it is just a sort of a, you know, just a gentle nod to the success of Black Panther and not an actual appreciation of it at the highest possible level. Of course, the actors are the biggest voting body. And if they're not recognizing any actors, it probably already spells doom for the odds of a Black Panther Best Picture win. But, you know, maybe not.

Maybe something changes. I don't know. One interesting thing that's been happening, too, is stock up, stock down on down on Disney I think is kind of an interesting conversation um a Disney movie has never won best picture and Marvel is technically Disney in this case and of course Mary Poppins Returns is also here a movie we also can't talk about uh I'm curious to see what happens and if Disney sets up a full-on assault and starts papering the town with billboards and hosting even more events and new screenings of these movies. Black Panther came out many, many months ago. So to remind

people in a place other than Netflix will be an interesting task for them. Disney hasn't had to care about Oscars in the past. It's so successful and so powerful and not just so historically important, but also so primed for the future that it's funny to think about an entire studio just being like yeah we'll see but i don't know what do you what do you think will happen with disney in the next couple of months well this is kind of recency biased with the nominations but i think we're going to hear a lot more about mary poppins returns and ite Littman tweeted something this morning that sent a real chill down my spine, which was just about the possibility of live performances this Oscar season between Gaga and Cooper and Lin-Manuel Miranda and Mary Poppins. And I don't like live singing, so that's really upsetting for me. But I think that they will have Lin-Manuel Miranda and Emily Blunt friend center. And I would be surprised if

Mary Poppins Returns doesn't make a ton of money. And I think they'll lean into it because one thing we should talk about is kind of the the old-timey nostalgia things running through this award season and a star is born is obviously the um most obvious example of that but mary poppins is a classic it's an old-fashioned movie they're singing they're dancing oh isn't that great and especially if actors respond to that sort of thing which they do because they're actors um I don't know I hope we see more Black Panther I we've never seen really an awards campaign like that so I'm curious a year later how much they can pull together and also whether people really care I mean I think that people I think that people will be mad if Black Panther is not included in the Oscars because it

should be and it's a big deal but also it made a ton of money and it has a big audience and I think it would be if it won it's like okay great I don't know that it needs it the way that other movies do it doesn't need it I just for the sake of avoiding the stray stray fire around a green book getting nominated for Best Picture and Black Panther not. Yeah, I mean, that would be terrible. I don't want to live through that two and a half months of nonsense. So, you know, I hope that it gets nominated. Your point about Mary Poppins is well taken.

One of the only truly massively successful Disney Oscars film was the original Mary Poppins, which had 12 nominations and had four wins. That's Julie Andrews, her win for best actresses in Mary Poppins. So, you know, there's certainly precedent there. We will have a lot of more conversation about Mary Poppins returns on the show later this month. You know, the HFPA, I have a lot of problems with them, probably no bigger problem than snubbing Ethan Hawke for First Reformed. Yeah, this is tough. You ready to talk? This is some bullshit.

Okay, yeah. What's going on? You're sad. I really like Rami Malek. I think he's wonderful as Freddie Mercury. We talked about Lucas Hedges. Those guys are good. But just put some respect on Ethan Hawke's name.

I really don't understand the Ethan Hawke snub. The First Reformed thing, First Re Reform's a very good movie. And sorry. She said perfunctorily. No, I think it is. But, you know, it's so toxic American masculinity in some ways that I understand why it doesn't translate beyond you and your friends. But no, it's very, very good. But I understand how First Reformed didn't make it in. Ethan Hawke is a goddamn movie star. We ran a piece today about the best performances of the year,

and I wrote about Ethan Hawke, and it was not just because of First Reformed. It was because listen to a podcast that that man has been on. He spoke to Sean. He spoke to Bill. He spoke to Bill. He's been on the interview tour. Holy cow. It's astonishing.

He's really charming and really fun. It's really, really hard to be that good on a press tour that consistently. And he has been out talking to everyone and is present and makes a connection. And it's kind of the thing that the Hollywood Foreign Press Association loves. Yeah and this race in particular is Bradley Cooper versus Christian Bale kind of through and through. I think no matter what happens that's what it's going to be for the rest of the season. So everything else that comes in in those other three spots is just a nod you know and Hawk has already been nominated I think three times you know he probably will be nominated again he'll probably win when he's like 68 he's totally that kind of actor

but it just would be nice for him to be recognized for this one I don't think that it's over for him no it's not because actors really

love that performance also and and they like that movie and that movie is not an HFPA movie and it is much more of an Oscars movie

Paul Schrader there'll be a story around that and whether he should be nominated we'll talk about it more in the future in our rundown here you have a great three word designation Paul Schrader, there'll be a story around that and whether he should be nominated. We'll talk about it more in the future.

In our rundown here, you have a great three-word designation, which is First Man By. You know, I really thought this week that there was a little bit of a revival for First Man. A lot of people started seeing it on screeners. It has that kind of classic like film nerd thing where it's like, I really studied this and I learned some new things about how good it is.

It's a camera angles movie. Totally. And so I was seeing some sentiment that was burbling up about it. But it, you know, it got a look for your girl. I was going to say, Claire Foy is still alive.

Claire Foy is still in the mix and she's very good in that film. And Justin Hurwitz, the very talented composer, was nominated for the score. That's a very good score. This is also a great year for scores. I don't know if you care to talk about that at some point on this show. Yeah, I would love to.

Maybe later as we get closer to the Oscars, but it's an incredible year for scores. So Hurwitz was recognized. But beyond that, no Gosling, no Damien Chazelle, no best motion picture, no screenplay for Josh Singer, who's already won in this category. It's a tough beat. Yeah. They really screwed up the release on this. Yeah.

And some of that is just unlucky timing because you go a week after A Star Is Born and what are you going to do? And it's such the opposite of A Star Is Born. It just got buried. And it's interesting. We're going to talk about A Star Is Born now, but it's the first time that we're even talking about A Star Is Born in it just got buried. You know, and it's interesting. We're going to talk about A Star Is Born now, but it's the first time that we're even talking about A Star Is Born in a month or so because it was so long ago in Oscar time. So, yeah, I think that they just took a gamble on an October release, and it didn't work out.

It didn't work out. I don't know what the right time would have been. Would it have been July? Would it have been November 15th? I'm not totally sure. That movie is too quiet to go early it needs to be i think it would have been november around the time is the favorite and other movies you know imagine if you're choosing between the favorite and the space movie a lot of people will go see the space movie with all respect to the favorite which i

love but i just it doesn't make sense it's's so quiet. Yeah. The favorite is it was an expertly managed and rolled out movie. Good trailer, movie stars. They took their time. It came over the holidays, slow release. It's still not in a lot of theaters. We've talked about it twice already on this show. Anticipation is building. The per screen average for the box office has been very good. Now it has all these Golden Globe nominations. All three actresses. That was very kind of a masterful execution of this stuff. And that stuff does matter, unfortunately. I still like First Man.

I hope people watch it. I think Chazelle is such an interesting filmmaker. And I'm really looking forward to what he does next. You mentioned A Star is Born and the actual frontrunners. It's still Roma and A Star is Born for the Oscars. And it's going to be that way for a long time. Now, you know, maybe Vice does something. Maybe Black Klansman does something. Maybe even Green Book does something, maybe The Favorite.

Those are the big ones, but we'll be talking about those two for a good long while. Let's go to the buzzword. Yes. There's two buzzwords. Yes. Surprises and snubs. Yes. How many pieces have you worked on in your career in which surprises and snubs appeared in the headline? I'm 34 years old. And so I don't know, 12 years times 30, 40. Yeah. That's a low estimate. So these words are, you know, they're a little exclamatory for what these things actually are. You know, no one really got snubbed. This is not. Ethan Hawke got snubbed. Okay. In my heart of hearts, certainly. But no one truly kind of deserves things. We use words like deserves and worthy throughout these things. And you and I are really passionate movie fans, and we're really excited about the people. We really ride for our people. You had a great morning because of Claire Foy, right?

I really did. I had a bad morning because of Ethan Hawke. It's fun to play fantasy football with our actors. But, you know, this isn't Syria. It's true. It's just not that serious. And, you know, to look at things in this light is a little bit frivolous. But we use it because it creates some sense of momentum and meaningfulness to these things. So let's talk about some surprises and stubs, okay?

Let's do it. We talked about Constance Wu. I'm happy for her. I think the Crazy Rich Asians thing is nice, in addition to it being a massive global phenomenon. If you're a listener of The Dave Chang Show, you heard John Chu talking about it last week. Good interview with him.

I'm really happy about Elsie Fisher getting recognized for 8th grade. I know you're not as big of a fan of 8h Grade, but I think it's pretty hard to say. She's a star. She's like, she's great in that movie. Fantastic. Has also been actually, frankly, quite charming on the campaign, which is a weird thing to say about a teenager. But, you know, I interviewed her on The Big Picture and I've seen her in, you know, doing talks after the film a number of times. She's just got a really strong grasp of what she was doing in this movie. It's really impressive

to hear her talk about it. It's a great performance. Maybe she could be nominated for an Oscar. I had not really considered that. Maybe. I think that this is probably the shining moment. And it's great. She's wonderful in it. It's not the last that we'll hear of Elsie Fisher. And she'll get to go to the Golden Globes and sit at the round table. That'll be a thrill. Yeah, I think it's great. And I think also she'll probably campaign. So that's fun. We'll have her around. I think it's great. Imagine getting to skip your finals because you're in the Oscar race. Awesome. That's a cool life. Charlize Theron. Charlize Theron was nominated for Tully, which is a movie that no one's talking about. Pretty good movie.

Yeah. Great movie till the last 10 minutes. Yeah, that's complicated. Let's not spoil it for people who haven't seen it because not a lot of people have seen it. It's Jason Reitman's drama about a woman who is experiencing some new feelings after giving birth to three children. And a woman comes into her life and sort of saves her, a woman named Tully. Really good performance, Charlize Theron. This nomination feels to me like Let's Put a Famous Person on TV.

Charlize Theron's a very glamorous movie star. It's a very good performance. She's kind of never bad, so you could nominate her every time she's up for something. But, you know, she, Charlize Theron is beautiful and is an Oscar winner and is well-respected. It's true. And so it's just kind of nice to have her there. Yeah, she's also in musical or comedy, we should note, which, again, is it a comedy? I mean, Tully is pretty crushing at times. I'm not sure I laughed.

Yeah. Maybe I was supposed to laugh at the first 15 minutes, but I didn't. But yeah, I would agree with you. It's like, it's nice to have her there. And she's also very good. Yeah. Tully, by the way, is high key, don't have a baby core. Yeah. You know, like there's been a rash of culture in the last 10 years. It's like everything they told you about having a baby is bullshit. Having a baby is terrible. This might be sort of the pinnacle of that. It's true. I would also argue that it's a don't get married.

Don't relate to other humans. Don't be born a woman. Yeah. You know, like all of that, all of that stuff is deeply ingrained in that, in that film. But you know,

it'll be cool to see her there. I suppose. Yeah. I would say that this is less of a, we want a star on TV nomination than say Nicole Kidman in destroyer. Nicole Kidman in destroyer is the peak. Oh my God, it's Nicole Kidman.

Definitely. Keith Urban will be there. Yeah, it'll be great. She did another transformation. She's got a wig. She's got some prosthetics. I like Nicole Kidman. I do too.

Destroyer is an interesting movie. Maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more. That's also coming out on Christmas. I can't say I was shocked by that nomination though because of exactly

what you're describing. My boy Robert Redford. You know, I fucking hate it when people say on podcasts, I tweeted this butt, but I'm going to say it. I tweeted last weekend that I don't understand why the old man and the gun isn't more of a thing. You have your hand raised. Yes, because I almost tweeted a response to you, and then I was like, I know you, so I'm just going to say this in person. Forgot till now. I understand why. It's because it was in theaters for two weeks. I tried to go

see it and it was already gone. Why? I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. I can't speak to that. I guess I'm just confused why there wasn't a bigger push around it. Ultimately, it's funny. I was reading about this recently and the movie made about $10 million, which was deemed a disappointment at the time. And then then upon reflection considering the performances of some other movies in this sort of realm is now considered a light success and maybe they'll maybe they'll maybe they'll put it back in theaters uh around the release of the movie to get read for an oscar nomination i don't know it's a really really charming movie um written and directed by david lowry who made a ghost story and pete's dragon a number of other movies he was on the show a few months ago you know it's not charming movie written and directed by David Lowery, who made A Ghost Story and Pete's

Dragon and a number of other movies. He was on the show a few months ago. You know, it's not exactly like, he's not doing what Christian Bale does in Vice, you know, which is just transform, gain weight, prosthetics, the voice, all of that stuff. It's not like Bradley Cooper, where he learned to play guitar and piano and he changed his voice. Like, it's just not one of those things. It's just Robert Redford being Robert Redford, which also should be rewarded.

Sometimes you want to go see a Robert Redford movie. I tried to go on date night to this three times. Not available. It's a tough beat. It's probably going to be on VOD soon. I would encourage people to check out The Old Man and the Gun. I was very happy to see Redford there. This could be the last time we talk about him, so might as well just give a shout out.

Weird surprises. We talked about Sam Rockwell. I just didn't see it coming. It's cool, I guess. Yeah, whatever. Good for him. It's fine. Glenn Close is the wife. We haven't seen the wife. Have you seen the wife? I've not seen the wife. May I just say thank you to all the kind people who have reached out to us on Twitter and via email to let us know that The Wife is now streaming on many major airlines, including, I believe, Delta, United, and American. I was not paid to say that. Oh, boy. I have not flown on any of those airlines recently,

and so I have still not seen The Wife. I'll be on a plane tomorrow morning, possibly dialing up The Wife, though maybe to keep this bit going, not watching it. No disrespect to Glenn Close. Wonderful for her to be nominated. I suppose she is the wife. Snubs. So we talked about Sam Elliott.

I'm bummed about that. I want to give a shout out to Nicholas Bertel, who is the composer of If Beale Street Could Talk and Vice. Two scores. And Succession. Yeah. And he was the composer of Moonlight

and has worked with Justin Hurwitz in the past on Whiplash. It's just, he's just a, he's one of the few composers whose music I listen to the way I would listen to like Drake. Like I just put that on to just do work, to work out, like just whatever I'm doing, I will just listen to Nick Bertel's music. So that was just kind

of a head scratcher yeah he also just seems like the guy in that space right now like people are actually it's pretty rare that people spend a lot of time talking about film scores and even specifically the composers by name and like Nick Patel is on my twitter feed a lot he has name recognition yeah we stand him at the ringer but in general people really just know that he's

great and he's classically trained but also clearly has this dexterity with hip-hop and with modern music and he has this great appreciation

for the past but I feel like he's kind of pushing movie music forward a little bit so that's a weird one I would be surprised if he was not

nominated at the Oscars I feel like that's that's gonna happen it seems like they be surprised if he was not nominated at the Oscars. I feel like that's going to happen. It seems like they're just not paying attention here. Yeah. Barry Jenkins not nominated for Best Director. You know, I don't know if that's a snub exactly. It's surprising.

You know, we recorded a show about the best movies of the year with Adam Neiman and Chris Ryan. That'll go up tomorrow. And we talked a lot about if Beale Street could talk, which it has, you know, I've only seen it once, but it's, it's really sticking to my ribs, you know,

and I have thought about it a lot. I know you also responded really emotionally to it. Of course. Yeah. I was, I was a mess. Yeah. It's just,

it's really good. And Barry's just really, really great. And that sounds kind of frivolous, but like he probably should be nominated. He should. It's also that movie, the direction and Barry Jenkins style stands out so starkly. He has a vision and a world and that is what makes the movie as powerful as it is.

And so that and Brian Tyree Henry, who was also not nominated in any categories across movie or TV, which is an outrage. That's a snub. Yeah. Read Andrew Guadadaro's piece about Brian on TheRinger.com right now. He's wonderful. And that's a snub in like eight different categories. So yeah, it seems like, I think that Barry Jenkins is probably still in the conversation for Oscars just because he is so clearly a talent and a director of a generation. And this movie is being received well and is in the conversation, but it feels like a snub here for sure. Yeah, that'll be at December 14th.

It goes without saying we would recommend that movie. Any other snubs that we're not thinking of here? Loosely defined snubs? You know, there's only one star is born song nominated i don't know if they did one is there a rule around that i didn't i didn't read that far in the bylaws i'm sorry but that seems like a mistake what would be your number two i really like maybe it's time yeah uh which is not even submitted for the oscar which I don't understand. Crazy. Is Cooper a coward for not wanting to be up there alone? I guess so. He has said that he will perform at the Oscars. So Shallow is going to be performed

at the Oscars, which I... What a time. It's going to be great, I think. I think. It'll be something. Let's go to our next segment. This one is a little thornier. The award show hosts. So we've had, we talked for a couple of weeks internally here at the ringer about what the heck's going on with none of these award shows having hosts. And early yesterday, the Hollywood reporter published a piece about how no one wants to host the

Academy awards and how it's the most thankless job in the business. Sinking ratings, the time commitment, the fact that you can't really like, nobody's ever like, that guy's amazing or that woman's amazing, unless you're Billy Crystal. Like, that's really the last time that's happened. Yeah, which was a generation ago and then totally different. That piece made a lot of sense. It seems like a really hard, thankless job. Yeah. And, you know, the producers have come under fire for this. And then, in kind, they responded pretty quickly by announcing that Kevin Hart would be taking over as the host of the Oscars this year. Now, I will say in some respects, I understand this.

Kevin Hart is a very famous comedian. Very famous comedians are probably the most well-suited to hosting the Oscars. From Bob Hope to Johnny Carson to Billy Crystal to Chris Rock to Ellen DeGeneres. These are the people that areited to hosting the Oscars from Bob Hope to Johnny Carson to Billy Crystal to Chris Rock to Ellen DeGeneres. These are the people that are good at hosting the Oscars. Not a huge Kevin Hart fan. Let's set that aside for a moment. Kevin Hart has had a history of homophobic tweets. And lo and behold, we are in the middle of a very noisy moment for Kevin Hart. So people are rediscovering those tweets. And now there is some controversy over whether Kevin Hart will continue to be the host of the Oscars. I just, someone at ABC needs to learn how to read tweets. For $500,000 a year, I will, before you

make any hiring decisions, I will come over there and I will read everyone's published tweets and I will give you a thumbs up or thumbs down. Okay? This doesn't make any sense. And that's before like, that just, what on earth? They should put that on ZipRecruiter. Yeah, I'm available. Tweet reader, 500k. I mean, and this is, you know, this is putting aside the whole, they're really ugly tweets and it's a, it's shitty. And you could kind of see this coming if you even thought a little bit about it and do you want to put someone in position and now this show is kind of

associated with it whether or not uh kevin hart actually does host the oscars which we'll see um it's evolving in real time yeah it's it's a real shame and the other thing i would say your point about it makes sense logically because you know kevin hart's a famous shame. And the other thing I would say, your point about it makes sense logically because, you know, Kevin Hart's a famous person. You want a famous person to host the Oscars. I get that. I still kind of think that it's old backwards thinking and is a mistake. You're not. We talked about this a bit last week, but this idea of we can just make the Oscars like the Super Bowl and the most popular mainstream thing and just we'll find something that everyone wants to watch.

That's gone. That's dead. That is not how culture works anymore. and the show itself, the best path forward for the Oscars is to tap into the specific, very passionate fan bases that people, you know, last year, people really loved Lady Bird. People really loved Phantom Thread. People really loved Get Out. That's how movies are going to succeed going forward. And I think that graphs onto the show as well, which brings us to the Golden Globe hosts, who are Sandra Oh and Andy Samberg. Famous. Nowhere near as famous as Kevin Hart.

Delightful. Great choice. Can't wait. They're going to be really fun. And there are going to be a ton of people who are, not a ton, but what? Three million people who just loved Killing Eve and are so psyched and are like, yes, great. And then they're going to be all the Brooklyn Nine-Nine fans, which are actually legion. There are many of them. And Lonely Island and SNL and all the Andy Samberg people. And they'll also be good.

And at some point, you either have the Golden Globes or the Oscars on or you don't at this point. It's so funny how routinely every year we come around and we're like, man, the HFPA, bunch of morons. They nominate all these bad movies. They don't know what they're doing. They seem completely out of touch with the movie business. But they routinely hire the best hosts. And, you know, obviously the Tina Fey and Amy Poehler team up for a couple years in a row is like among the best hosting job that any group has done or any person has done

in recent times. Even Ricky Gervais who did it a couple years in a row who was very controversial and kind of acidic and mean I thought was like kind of great television

and in a way that like Seth MacFarlane hosting the Oscars was not great television. You know, and you can make a provocative choice and still make it interesting. And I just think Sandra Oh and Andy Serber

is kind of interesting. It's kind of fun. Are they friends? I didn't know that. I'm kind of curious to see what they're like together. I love Andy Samberg and I've always thought he's fucking hilarious. So I'm very interested in that. It's just like, it's such a good and right choice and they've routinely made good and right choice. Not always, but often. Yeah. The Golden Globes understands that this is a TV show all its own, right? It's always been the party. And we watch the awards shows. You and I watch the award shows because we're movie nerds and we like arguing about these things. But most people watch the awards shows

because it's all the famous people in a room and you want the cutaways and you want to see them interact. And the Golden Globes has figured that out years ago. So it makes sense. It also just makes for better TV. And I really do think that the best chance for people, actually for ratings, for people caring, is to make it fun to watch. Make it a good show. Yeah.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. Let's kind of circle the square on the Kevin Hart thing. We're probably just going to have to talk about this again next week. I'm not totally sure what's going to happen, if it will devolve or if people will just move on. You know, it's not that long ago that Brett Ratner stepped down as the producer of the show when Eddie Murphy was supposed to host for similar comments. He made homophobic comments and he made some comments about his sex life on Howard Stern and he was basically ejected from the program. And so there's precedent for something like this

happening. It just wouldn't be that shocking if Kevin Hart wasn't the host by the end of this week. Right. This is also the third tweet scandal in the Disney-ABC family in the past year. Also James Gunn, who was fired, and Roseanne, who was fired. So there's a precedent at this point, which puts ABC and Disney in a tricky spot. We will keep talking about it. What are you looking forward to at the Golden Globes, aside from Sandberg and Sandro?

Anything after what we've talked about here that you're like, I'm fired up for this? You know what's great? Having A Star Is Born back in my life is great. It was a great film that no one put on their year-end list, and it makes no sense to me. It was A Star Is Born. Tune into tomorrow's podcast. makes no sense to me. It was A Star is Born. Tune into tomorrow's podcast.

You'll hear some of us talking about A Star is Born. Right. We have talked a lot about how this awards season is kind of the old and the new clashing, and what will Netflix do, and will we recognize Black Panther, and the new ways of making movies, and that's all really important, and I like all of those movies. But also, sometimes you like to cry while Bradley Bradley Cooper is singing on stage and Lady Gaga. So I'm excited to have it back.

I'm excited that we can talk about it again. It was on ice for a little bit. That was good. We all needed to take a break. I listened to Shallow on my drive to work today. Still great. Top five song of the year. Yeah.

So according to The ringer.com, so I'm glad to have it back and I'm excited to see that happen. I think a star is born versus vice is really wacky, but kind of fun before we get into the, it's nice. This can be the wacky period and then we'll be grownups right after the golden globes. That's nice. I agree with you. I'm looking forward to that too. I'm looking forward to re-watching Leslie Mann announcing the best motion picture animated category, which was just funny. Leslie Mann saying Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse is a thing that happened at five o'clock in the morning today. And otherwise, I don't know. I think it'll be a better show than it will be an awards ceremony.

And that probably means it'll be a good Golden Globes, right? We'll be back next week. We'll have a special guest joining us. We'll be talking about the best performances of the year, something you wrote about on The Ringer today. I did. And also, you know, we'll be talking about, hopefully, not this Kevin Hart situation, but probably we will.

Until then, this has been The Oscar Show. Thank you, Amanda Dobbins. Thank you. We'llbins. Thank you. We'll see you next week. This episode of The Big Picture has been brought to you by Kavo. The Kavo Control Center is the first truly universal TV remote control for your entire home theater. Connect up to four devices and centralize all your content in one place, so you can easily find what you want, when you want it.

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