The Big Picture - The Great ‘Avatar’ Debate with Blank Check’s Griffin Newman and David Sims

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

‘Avatar: The Way of Water,’ the sequel to the most lucrative movie of all time, is slated for the end of this year. Does anyone care? Sean is joined by Griffin Newman and David Sims, hosts of the ‘Blank Check’ podcast, to discuss the lasting impact of James Cameron’s technologically revolutionary behemoth, and more importantly, whether ‘Avatar’ is actually good. Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Griffin Newman and David Sims Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. Their ass can cash. It's Griffin Newman and David Sims of the Blank Check podcast. Hi, boys. Oh, hey. Hello. Thank you. I thought it was going to be long. Well, there's more to say.

Oh, okay. There's more to say here, but I'm really glad you're here. You want to get into the tar. That's the point. You want to keep the energy. The muck. So, let's actually chat about Blank Check, because I was fortunate enough to appear on the show this week, actually.

We synced this up perfectly. We strategized, even though you recorded with me a long time ago. Four years ago. So we're here. For anybody who doesn't know what Blank Check is, and frankly there probably are not very many listeners of the show who don't, but what is it? What is your show?

We were told years ago to come up with a succinct pitch for our show. Yes. So we have it, right? The thing I say at the beginning of every episode is it's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. Yeah, that was a note we got from some podcast honcho once. He's like, I don't know what your show is like. I want to hear more about this

honcho. Oh, he was a real honcho. He sat behind a desk. He was like, here's why I'm not going to give you money. He was like, I'm not interested in your show, but you should have a one-cented pen. He did give us some good notes. But yes, our show started out as, absurdly enough, a podcast exclusively about The Phantom Menace. Yeah, that's right. We don't need to talk about that. We don't need to talk about it.

But over time, we realized what was really interesting to us was trying to make sense of George Lucas and filmmakers of bad ilk. And what that level of success did to him, both good and bad. So from there, the way we figured out how to keep the show going was to sort of rebrand it

and we, Cameron, James Cameron was the fourth or fifth filmmaker we did? He was early, yeah. M. Night Shyamalan was our first pick for a guy who has such a run of success that Hollywood is like well what do you want to do like you really can do whatever you want yeah and the highs and lows that came out of that career uh and then we picked other directors since who had similar moment James Cameron being one of the ultimate ones, obviously. Yeah, Cameron was sort of a turning point for us, though,

because I think we've always tried to make the distinction that we are not a bad movie podcast because we do end up covering some giant flops. Yes. We also cover some of the most beloved, successful movies of all time. We cover a lot of things in between. But early on, I think people like to categorize things and are like, oh, is this one of those funny podcasts where you make fun of movies that don't work? Make fun of Lady in the Water or whatever.

And we did, the first three series we did were Shyamalan, The Wachowskis, and Cameron Crowe. Right. And all three of those have similar arcs where it's like, they come out of the gate really strong, sort of wunderkind filmmakers who then start making more and more expensive sort of follies that don't really work with the public at the time. And we defend some of those follies more than most people, but we were picking filmmakers who had those sorts of arcs similar to George Lucas, where it's like, did the power drive them crazy? Did they get too much control, too much freedom? And James Cameron was the first guy we covered where it's like, no, the checks pretty much just

kept clearing. Right. The Abyss is the only thing he's ever made that you could call not a total success. And that has been at least rescued critically, emotionally several times over now. And it didn't even do badly. Right. Like it's just everything else. It's the only movie of his that wasn't a phenomenon from Terminator on, essentially. So after we recorded your episode, and you guys are doing Stanley Kubrick right now. We're doing Kubrick right now.

Which has been a great series thus far. Who's more similar to Cameron, and when he gets going, he pretty much doesn't miss. Right. So, David, you suggested, let's talk about Avatar on this show. I was looking at the cow.

There's a reason for that. I mean, Avatar was re-released in movie theaters. Yes. And when we're recording, I think it is just leaving movie theaters now? I was a reason for that. I mean, Avatar was re-released in movie theaters. Yes. And when we're recording, I think it is just leaving movie theaters now. I was going to ask that. It's just, it's truly a one-week engagement thing. I think it's two full weeks. I'm wondering if they might extend it, though.

It's done well. It's done well. Avatar's once again the number two movie in America. It was suggested that this was a real gut-check test by Disney to make sure that The Way of Water, which is the forthcoming sequel to Avatar, is legitimately one of the most anticipated movies of the year, and not just among, say, movie podcasters. And it seems like it is based on the performance of

the original Avatar back in theaters. It's the funny thing of, you know, I think I saw Cameron say something to this effect in an interview, but it was almost, this movie's been out of circulation for 13 years, you know, in theaters. There's a generation of kids who did not get to see it, who we need to be excited about the sequel on the ground floor. They're not going to get the same effect watching it at home. The re-release was partially driven by just, we need to get people on board.

And I think what Disney's very pleasantly surprised by is the amount of people who were just eager to go back and see it again, you know, who had the experience in the past, not new audiences to Avatar giving a first sample,

but like... I think he knows he waited too long. There's interviews where he's sort of like, I know 13 years is like, is testing the limits of this. When you guys did your series on him, you did cover a couple of the late period docs, right? We did. series on him, you did cover a couple of the

late period docs, right? We did. We did an episode on what are they called? Ghosts of the Abyss and Aliens of the Deep. Correct. Which are both

basically, I mean, he's basically made four things since Avatar. They're all documentaries. You mean since Titanic. Oh, no.

Oh, since Avatar. Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And they're not widely seen. Well, the two we covered are the ones that happen in between Titanic and Avatar. Yes.

Which was him kind of testing the 3D technology. And then there's one documentary after that called James Cameron's Undersea Exploration. That sounds ridiculous. It has an absurd title, but he did not direct that. That is a documentary crew following him. Right. Submerging himself.

But he has put his name on a handful of series, documentary series over that time. There was that James Cameron sci-fi, right? Right. But he hasn't directed

a thing since Avatar. 13 years is a very long time. I will say, we're going to talk a lot about Avatar in this conversation. Both the film, when it was released. You guys did an entire episode about it. We did.

This re-release. But you've never talked about it, too. Literally never talked about it. I was like, you've never had any Avatar conversation on Big Picture. We've never talked about it. Right. I think we've, I mean, I, like many loser 40-year-olds, have just been waiting for a new James Cameron movie for a long time.

Yes. 36, but yes. I'm really, really excited. And Avatar has taken this unusual place in our culture, which is to say it's kind of in like the nether zone. A lot of people pretend it never happened. Some people forgot it happened, despite it being for a long stretch of time

the most financially successful film ever made. I think it is again, right? Worldwide, it is again. Because of this re-release. Yeah, the re-releases keep bumping it back up or something. But it was even a year or two ago, they re-released it in China and a couple countries where it hadn't played originally.

And that gave it like another $150 million worldwide that bumped it above Endgame again. So let's go back to the beginning. Because that nether zone I'm talking about is very important. There's a sort of a meme at this point

that Avatar has no cultural footprint. Meme a character from Avatar. Exactly. It's this weird self-defeating thing where the amount

of discourse over the fact that no one talks about Avatar is in fact proving the point that we're all still talking about Avatar. Very much so.

It feels like it's very much people saying I don't think we should think still talking about Avatar. Very much so. It feels like it's very much people saying, I don't think we should think about this movie anymore. I want to prove that no one cares. And you're like, you seem to care a lot. Right. But at the same time, there is a grain of

truth, or whatever. It doesn't feel like it's in the cultural atmosphere as much as it should be given. I know what people mean. I want to give that side. It does feel strange that I guess there's not. Maybe it's that there's not like Avatar cartoons.

There's not Avatar toys spilling out of kids' lunchboxes. I don't know what it is. I think that's part of it. And to put a pin in a thing, we can continue to unpack throughout this episode. But watching this in theaters again did make me think about when people throw out that argument of Avatar is no lasting cultural footprint. We don't know the names of these characters. No one can quote anything from the movie. This guy sounds fun. There aren't the memes about all that stuff.

Is this a character that you're working on? Yeah. Mr. I hate. He's got like a big shirt that says, I hate Avatar. No, it's not even I hate Avatar. It's literally, I don't know what Avatar is. I don't? Yeah. Mr. I Hate. He's got like a big shirt that says, I hate Avatar. No, it's not even I hate Avatar. It's literally, I don't know what Avatar is. I don't remember Avatar.

I did it for my SNL audition. Lauren didn't like it, but I think if I refine it next year, it'll work. But I think a lot of that is people holding it to the standards of what fandom

around movies has become. Right, right. Why is there not like a constant journey culture? Why doesn't Avatar have the stickiness of a Marvel? what fandom around movies has become. Right, right. Why is there not, like, a sort of concentrated culture? Why doesn't Avatar have the stickiness of a Marvel? Why is there not a Screen Rant article every day being, like, theories? Like, you know, what clan will be, you know, whatever?

Well, and a lot of pop culture has now shifted into specifically trying to cater to the idea of, like, fandoms around specific characters, you know, putting memeable elements into the films themselves. These things that like, uh, you know, are, are very, have been very successfully synthesized to rally audiences to feel a personal investment in the movies. I often argued that the weird fandom of Marvel feels closer to sports team fandom

than what movie fandom used to be. And the imprint that Avatar has is similar to the imprint that Cameron movies have, which is just, I like watching this movie. There are a couple things.

Okay, so I want to explore that. Some of those things to say, yes. So, that's complicated because on the one hand, I think you have both nailed kind of what our movie culture is, especially our franchise movie complicated because on the one hand i think you've you have both nailed kind of what our movie culture is especially our franchise movie culture on the other hand one avatar i think one of the reasons why it is not quote-unquote popular in the popular consciousness is because i don't think people really care about the story very much i think

that the success of the film is largely spectacle driven and they don't necessarily have that relationship to those characters like you're describing. But this is the man who portrayed Ripley and the Terminator and who increasingly iconographed Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is great at characters, at indelible figures that you want to follow through time so there's this odd conundrum because cameron kind of sort of invented where our modern movie culture is even though avatar is largely not representative of it so it's a real pickle i think you're absolutely right i think that you that crystallized it better than anyone like no one god bless and i guess that's what people mean when they say like i can can't name Jake Sully.

Like, I did jury duty. I was, I was on a jury in 2010, not long after Avatar came out. And it was like a true, like all walks of life. We,

you know, every member of this jury was from a different neighborhood in Brooklyn. It was a different age. And I remember one time we were all talking movies and like, everyone's like, did you see this? You know?

And then it was, and then when someone said Avatar, everyone was like, Oh, wow. It was so cool. It was like, everyone's like, did you see this? You know, and then it was, and then when someone said Avatar, everyone was like, oh, wow, it was so cool. It was like I was there.

Like that was truly the vibe. People liked going to the world. They liked taking this weird trip to like a fantastic planet. No one said like, I loved Neytiri. And I do like Neytiri. I like Neytiri a lot. I was the one person

I felt like at the time being like, Nate Terry is a worthy addition to the Cameron canon. But no one was saying, you know who I love is Sam Worthington. And then God bless. That's fine. They don't have to say that. And watching even this film and it's like Joel David Moore,

Norm Spellman, entertaining, fun. But Cameron has given us a Hudson as the fifth lead of your movie. These characters on the side who can really pop. I have a lot of thoughts. When you rewatch it, you are like, everyone in this is good.

It's fun to see Michelle Rodriguez and Joel David Moore. You are pumped up for all of them, but you know, whatever there, it's not like an aliens where you're like the 15th guy in aliens. You're like, I know three lines that this guy says.

Everyone's hopping in that. Right. Everyone feels iconic, indelible, lovable. Right. I, I,

I think there is, uh, it's intricate. I mean, this movie is so complicated in terms of where it well i want stands culturally yeah let me let's do two things one i'm going to ask you a hypothetical that maybe scratches the surface on this conversation and then i'm just going to like tell people what avatar is about because sure i guess i feel like a lot of people don't really

remember and frankly when i saw it i was like oh yeah that's what happens like i hadn't this isn't a movie i've spent a lot of time watching over and over again, which is, I think, why this is all coming up. But one of the famous kind of sliding doors, casting what ifs, we might say, on the rewatchables, is that Matt Damon famously was offered the role of Jake Sully, which Sam Worthington eventually portrayed, in addition to 10% of the future gross of this movie. Right. Which went on to make billions of dollars future gross of this movie. Right. Which went on to make billions of dollars.

It's made like $3 billion. So, you know, a lot of money. Cameron sort of said, I need to put all the money on screen. I can't pay your quote, but I can give you stake in the film. And by Damon's account, he felt,

I don't really want to do this kind of movie anymore. I pretty much pick movies based on the directors and how badly I want to watch those directors work. This was in this period where Damon kept on threatening to direct himself. He was going to direct Promised Land, right? Or maybe Manchester by the Sea. But there were a couple other movies he got attached to. Yeah, he kept on saying, I might step away from acting.

It's like a forman era, Damon? Yeah. What's he up to? Apparently, he cited his ongoing commitment to the Bourne films as the reason why he ultimately didn't take this film. I guess right.

He had one franchise. I have a franchise which I guess makes sense but then you know it's not so And also this is mid 2000s I guess because it's the start

of production on Avatar. That's right. Like it's not even 2009. That's a whole other part of this conversation is how long this film was in the works. He's in oceans

and Bourne territory. Yes. And he just did like The Departed. But in 10 short years he's making Oceans and Born Territory. Yes. And he just did The Departed. But in 10 short years he's making The Great Wall. This is a person who will make

a schlocky CGI fest film. I think he regrets making that movie. But he did it for all the reasons that he said he didn't work with James Cameron. It's like...

Yeah. I mean he did... I guess he got to work with Jung-E-Mu. Right. But I've always felt incredibly guilty about that movie

because I wrote a sarcastic article about the trailer or the poster or something because you know everyone made fun of it because it was like matt damon's face yeah and everyone was like what's this like movie but if you watch the movie that actually isn't what it is exactly and i wrote a sarcastic article and then matt damon gave an interview where he was like i was just bummed out by the atlantic because like tanahasi coats writes for it and I was just like I bummed him out I didn't mean to I'm sorry

that's very funny but I do think you know sorry David Sims is a columnist for the Atlantic in addition to being one of the hosts of Blank

yes I am not no Matt Damon has never gotten mad at me you don't know I've never bummed him out sure

has he seen the Masters of the Universe reboot maybe he had a lot of them he didn't like all these women. Foregrounded female characters. No, I'm sure he loved it. I don't want to talk any more shit about Matt Damon, who I love. Great guy.

I hope he likes Orko. No, the thing I was going to say is I think it speaks to more than anything. At that point in time, in 2005, 2006, a guy like Matt Damon can be like, look, I'm an elevated movie star. I don't want to do CGI shoot-em-ups. I have two franchises that are really actually actor-driven where I work with O-Tour filmmakers, and they're a little more sophisticated and mature. I don't need to do the popcorn fair. And by 10 years later, it's sort of you cannot play this game unless you have a couple of these in your back pocket.

You cannot keep getting Adjustment Bureau greenlit if you're not every couple of years doing a sort of brand deposit. Well, furthermore, he left $300 million on the table. But like, would that have robbed us? It probably would have robbed us of a lot of Damon performances, right? Because like making Avatar would have taken so long. That's a very good point. Why don't we just pull up the Matt Damon filmography?

I was looking. Which is something that we do from time to time on this podcast. It's a great argument, David. Like could he have voiced the dad in Ponyo in the English dub? Maybe that one he could have done.

But it's this thing we always discuss of like... Well, here's a relevant one. If it really is the 2005 era when we're starting to get time with him, maybe he's not in The Departed. Yeah.

He may not be in The Departed. Like, see, if he had missed Invictus Green Zone Hereafter, I'm fine with that. Me too. But then, if he's not in True Grit, that's a bummer. One of his best performances.

One of his best performances. One of his absolute best performances. You know, well, we bought a zoo. I mean, how do we... I like it. He's good in it. And no one else could have bought that zoo. Damon from 2007

through 2010. It's not the best. It's not the best. It's not the best. The period where he was, would have been making avatars may be his worst run. But it's when he's developing

into one of our finest supporting character actors. This is your favorite argument. True Grit, Contagion, Margaret is sort of a special case because it's gotten,

you know, I think that movie was filmed filmed 1974. Exactly. Behind the Candelabra, a great Damon performance. Another one of his best performances. You know, Interstellar being the sort of like beautiful capper to that, right? This is also the whole thing you always say is like, is Matt Damon secretly a better supporting

actor than he is a leading man? But I also love him as a leading man. Of course. Especially when it's... It's not a backhanded strike against his leading man career but you look at his supporting career and it's so good yeah so hit the question then if if Jake Sully is Matt Damon is this one of them is this an even more iconic film or is it somehow maybe lesser because it's a movie star movie this is I I was thinking

this a lot while mocap Damon yeah yeah you It would be mo-cap Damon, by and large. Because Cameron's whole thing at the time was, I think in order to sell this odd premise that's an original property, I need a big movie star at the center. And even when Damon says no, there was sort of like, is it a Gyllenhaal? Do you get someone who's at that level? There were a couple people in the mix.

And then he makes this definitive decision of, I really think this doesn't need to be a movie star driven film. The star is going to be the world, the effects, all of that. Just get an actor who fits the role. We don't need to waste money on a movie star. He made that very deliberate decision to let me get an unknown guy.

Let me get someone who's doing good, low budget work. It's obviously, I think the root of, complaints against avatar the anonymity people accusing it of lacking stickiness not just that but the fact that you know he helped launch leo he basically created arnie's iconography you know like he has so many leading men elevated sigourney right even yeah and linda hamilton just, right, the amount of... Lady men and women. Yeah, but re-watching it, A, I will say, Sam Worthington's performance worked better for me this time

than it ever had before. Give me credit. I leaned over to you and our friend Emma, who was also there, and said, like, he's very charming in this. What happened here? I still don't think he's great. It is largely a...

It's charming. He's loose. He works. And I kept on thinking, whereas before, when this movie came out and I was a big fan, I did go, fuck, if it is Damon, it probably adds a star, right? If it's Gyllenhaal, it probably adds a star. If it's someone who's a little more capable, it probably adds a star. Watching it this time, I questioned if it would overwhelm the movie. Well, that was what I wanted to ask you both, which is when you saw it in 2009, and this

was a breathlessly anticipated movie. Absolutely. I'm sure for guys like us. We've been waiting 12 years for another Cameron. Exactly. It's very similar in timeline. And knives were out. Like, much as it is pretty much always the case when there's a new Cameron.

When, I mean, there was so much. And it's what's happening again. Of course. The man brings it on himself by waiting so long. But it is funny that every time we're like, sure, you've made countless hits, but prove me, you know, like, you

know. But I think people forget there's this notion of like, this movie came out and everyone was brainwashed and convinced themselves that they loved it and

they never thought about it ever again. When those trailers came out, everyone was mocking this movie. It was like, this is what he spent 12 years working on.

Yes. This looks dumb. This looks corny. The effects aren't as good as they promised. And it opened low. Yeah. And then it just, you know, had crazy legs. But it opened to like, what, 75 or something?

People were like, uh-oh. It might not make it out. Yeah, right. People were very skeptical of it. And it won everyone over. But what did you think when you sat down to see it the first time? I remember distinctly thinking, I hope he doesn't fuck this up. I've been waiting 12 years for a Cameron movie.

I really want to like this. But almost all of the marketing has kind of bummed me out. And I felt the same thing rewatching it this time, which are the first 30 or 40 minutes are the dodgiest. Where you're sort of going like, okay. It's kind of getting on its legs, sure. But when it ended the first time, did you feel masterpiece? He's done it again? I don't know if I felt masterpiece, but I did feel like, son of a bitch, he did it again.

It is worthy of being in the Cameron oeuvre, even if it's not in my top five of his movies, only because he's made like five masterpieces. I loved it. And I saw it with like my girlfriend at the time and a couple other friends. And they were all just like, that was okay. And I was like, oh, I thought that was great. I was the one walking out being like, oh god i want to see it again like right now i was very two more times within that week it's a very very very sincere film and i was what would i have been i was like 23 years old yeah and all my friends were like okay and i was

like yeah but you know when home tree goes down and, it's kind of about colonialism and like the Iraq war and people are like, I don't want to talk to you about this. Look, it's one of those movies where I get it. We talk about this a lot with like late period Shyamalan where it's like he's kind of become a cilantro filmmaker where either that works for you

and you get it. Shyamalan is the ultimate example. The weird heightened tone Saw the trailer for Knock on the Door and I was like opening night. Exactly. Some people are like the second his dialogue hits my ear, I'm out. But not only that, it's the cilantro thing where it hits their ear and they go, I don't understand how

anyone could think this is good. Not just I think this is bad. I am one of those people. Yeah, I can't eat. I can't. I can't eat M. Night Shyamalan. I can't with cilantro. You're like, this is soap. You're insane if you think this is good. You cannot argue otherwise. Yeah.

And Avatar is both so achingly sincere and so goofy that you just, there are so many moments within the first 10 minutes where I understand people just tapping out and going, I can't, I can't even, I will not. And you're insane if you like this. But I do think you saying it's a movie that's

remembered for its spectacle the experience of it more than the story if the story didn't work the experience wouldn't work that's true it is a very primitive basic story right it's huge sort of sweeping gestures but i think when people go, well, Avatar sucks at home. It's not worth watching if you're not watching in 3D. I think it's more that you need to really give into it. Because it is a movie that slowly sort of wins you over, brings you in. If your wall is not too firmly constructed in defense against this movie, you get sort of roped up where by the point the tree falls and you're sort of emotionally worked up. If you watch that scene out of context on YouTube, it will always feel stupid. I think

almost any moment of this movie isolated on its own does not work as well as just giving into the whole thing. There's a secondary part of this conversation about revisiting that I do want to have. But for now, let me just read some context around the history of the production of this movie, because it truly is a 15-year journey all the way to the screen and then up till the 13 years since. So in 94, Cameron is still developing Titanic and he wrote an 80-page treatment for Avatar, drawing inspiration from quote, every single science fiction book that he had read in his childhood and also Edgar Rice Burroughs, H. Ryder Haggard. So your point, Griffin, about it being old-fashioned, it's very old-fashioned because it's inspired by 100-year-old books. It's very like John Carter of Mars or whatever. I assume

that was a big one for him. And that's very out of fashion in our current storytelling. There's nothing smirky about any of those books that he's citing. So in 96, he announces that after Titanic, he's going to make Avatar. He's going to use synthetic or computer-generated actors entirely that it's a $100 million movie, six actors in leading roles who appear to be real but do not exist in the physical world. The people were really saying stuff like that in the 90s all the time.

And it seemed so stupid. And then, I mean, we're like a couple years away from Gollum at this point. And then all of a sudden you see that this is in many ways the future of movies well that was the other complicated thing was

for that period of time I think it felt to a lot of people like he might just never make a movie ever again he keeps on talking about this fabled project

he'll go to his lab he'll tinker away he's waiting for the technology to be right he's not gonna make it until it's there this might never happen it's very similar

Megalopolis Francis Ford Coppola vibes, where it's like he's been talking about this for 20 fucking years, and now he's doing it, and it finally happened. But it takes a long time. Because he was really, in many ways, and not unlike Lucas, another lodestar for your show, kind of conceiving of a new way to make movies. Yes.

And that took ultimately 12 years. Cameron felt that the technology had not caught up with the story and vision that he intended to tell in the 90s. So he basically tables it or at least like soft develops it. And he makes those two documentaries you mentioned, Griffin. It's not just that he makes documentaries. He becomes so obsessed with deep sea diving and is like, I have to do this now while I'm still physically fit. That's right. So he's known as Big Jim here on the big picture.

Thanks to Chris Ryan. And Big Jim just fucking loves to go in the water. He loves the water. As Chris once said, he thinks the sea is dope. It is dope. Jim agrees. But you said this to me once. He was like, it's not just that I love doing it.

It's that I'm only getting older, and now is the time for me to do this ridiculously high-stress thing. I re-watched an old Hollywood reporter Oscar roundtable from 2009, where it's him and Tarantino and Lee Daniels, the other nominees, whatever. But Tarantino's talking about his long-promised thing of, you know,

I'll retire when I'm 50, I'll retire when I'm 60, I'll retire 10 movies. But he keeps on trying to put these goalposts on himself. And Cameron's like, look, the reason I took such a long gap is these are my prime deep-sea years. I plan to die making films. I will never retire,

but I can make movies when I'm 90 and I can't go in a submergeable. He'll be in like, he'll be in like some, you know, neck suit when he's 90 directing on set. Look,

to some degree, I was waiting for the technology, but also I went like, these are my athlete years. Yeah, he wanted to die. Sean, you said the same thing to me

about making the big picture. It's true. You're going to take a 10 year break and we submerge every episode. Hike Mount Everest and then you thing to me about making the big picture. It's true. You're going to take a 10-year break. And we submerge every episode. Hike Mount Everest. And then you're going to die recording the big picture when you're 95. Well, let's also say both of those documentaries were 3D. The other thing he's doing is, okay, I'm not ready to make another narrative feature film.

But let me do my deep sea stuff. Let me get cameras with me. And let me start to test out 3D composition. See where the technology is. That becomes another big building block of now when he promises that he's going to make

Avatar someday, it's also going to be in 3D. So in 2005, he convinces 20th Century Fox, the studio behind this original film, to give him $10 million to just see if he can do it.

To just see if he can do a test case for the making of this movie. Give me a year to just do R&D. This is highly unusual. I might just walk away and say, I can't. Too bad. Sorry.

I would like to see the contract for the $10 million. Is this when he basically, because there was this quote he gave recently where he said to them, I built this office we're in. Titanic paid for all of this. Yes. You let me do this. That was a recent New York Times interview

that he gave. And in that interview, I'm always so interested in high-level schemers who actually win. Yeah. Like, he is the ultimate, like, con artist

whose con is real. Like, every time he walks into a room and he's like, you've never seen this before, but I'm going to do it. And a lot of people with a lot of money

on their line are like, fuck. Take the check. Can we do this of money on their line are like, fuck. Take the check. Can we do this? Is this okay? And then Hollywood famously. And they sweat the whole time. Yes.

Yes. But most of the time when Hollywood entrusts its future with someone like this, they fail. Absolutely. I mean, these are all the late night YouTube rabbit holes I go down. I must have been on some James Cameron interview algorithm kick. But I watched a Howard Stern interview from right before

Titanic came out. And he was saying, and I don't know how this ended up shaking out years later, but to the point of I bought Fox, I bought you this lot

with the Avatar Prophets. Yep. With Titanic Prophets. Sorry, the Titanic Prophets. Although he probably bought them another lot with the Avatar Prophets. One of my favorite lots, by the way.

The Fox lot. Wonderful. Happy to hear it's still kicking post-merger. I don't know what you guys are on about. It truly feels like classic Hollywood stuff. It does. Yeah. Can you get Dodger dogs?

I don't know any LA things. Titanic, notoriously difficult production. Went so wildly over-scheduled, over-budget. Pushed back a lot. Right. He was at one point drugged with PCP and just was like, I ain't stopping directing. His eye was bloodshot. He gave up his profit participation from Titanic as sort of a mea culpa to Paramount and Fox

to not pull the plug on him because it had gone so far over budget. So he's on Stern and Stern's like, so is it true you stand to make no money off this movie? And he was like, yeah, I gave it up. Why did you do that? Because I made them a promise. They gave me money. It was very generous. I ended up costing more.

I needed to, like, repay the favor. And Stern's like, why would you do that? What do you stand to gain from this movie now? And he says, what I stand to gain is I made the movie. And the movie exists. And he's like, but you're not going to make a dollar off of this? And he goes, no. He's made plenty. I'm sure he did. But at that moment in 1997, but you're not going to make a dollar off of this? And he goes, no. He's made plenty.

I'm sure he did. But at that moment in 1997, when the film's about to come out, he said, I have no stake in this film financially anymore. But he gets residual. You know what's so remarkable

about that, though? For 99 out of 100 people, that obviously would be a terrible business decision. Yeah. And also, the likelihood of the film becoming what it became

is virtually nil. In this case, it's not only the biggest movie of all time at that moment, but he has the famous victory at the Academy Awards in which he utters the line from his movies, the king of the world. And while that is like a deeply cringeworthy moment, it's very honest and true. He was the absolute king of that world.

Right, but you can't dispute it. I do remember my mother watching that Oscar. So my brother going, he's such an asshole yes i i was at an oscar party with my my parents and their friends and whatever and when he did that everyone in the room went oh like there was a collective i was in an la confidential house that year i mean that was you know we were all rooting no i was pro titanic but everyone else was i bet that full monty was win. It was a thing where the year before that, or no, Saving Private Ryan is the year after that. It is, yeah. I won that Oscar pool by betting on Shakespeare over Saving Private Ryan.

You were being contrarian. You've told this story on our podcast, I believe. Right, but for years, especially when I was young at Oscar pool parties with adults, I would pick the comedy, the populist favorite, the one that was not the front runner, just being like, well, if it wins, I wins i'm the only one yeah who wins yeah anyway so he does eventually get to make the movie his 10 million dollar test case which i assume is like the mocap and the 3d stuff right yes he's experimenting with all the things that he applies to the movie right i'm gonna i'm gonna um walk us through the plot of the film avatar hit me okay i know you guys just rewatched it but just deal with it because there's a lot of listeners who are like, what the fuck is this movie about?

Because they forgot it. They have forgotten it. They just know that there's maybe blue people in it. Here's something I don't remember, and I don't even think there's a title card that indicates this

at the beginning of the movie. Maybe there is. This movie's set in the mid-22nd century. Okay. You do know that only because on Jake's logs you can see the date.

It's like 2151. Okay. But it's in tiny font, so that's the only reason. And I did clock that this time. Have you ever seen the date. It's like 2151. Like, but it's in tiny font. So that's the only reason. And I did clock that this time. Have you ever seen the extended cut? Yes, I have. Right.

I own a giant Blu-ray that has three discs in it. Oh, big save. There's like 20 minutes that were written and shot of table setting in this new future. Yeah. Jake Sully in a city, drunk, miserable. I love that we don't get it. Yes. It's also- a city, drunk, miserable. That's right. Of course we don't get it.

Yes. And I love the weird allusions to like Venezuela, you know, and to like our shitty world that like has clearly just gotten worse. Dystopian cityscape,

sort of like shitty Blade Runner stuff. And it's bad. It's all bad. It's really, it's the worst footage in the movie. And everyone, Cameron, by all accounts, was just sort of like, a reason. It's the worst footage in the movie. And everyone,

Cameron, by all accounts, was just sort of like, what do we do? How do we set the table? We need to put this stuff in, even though it doesn't work. And apparently, at some point, went to his editors and went, just give me a cut where it opens on him waking up in the pot. And they went, you can't do that. How is the movie... There's too much of a buy-in. How do we explain it?

Let's just try it as an experiment. It is radical that this movie just starts with a guy waking up in like a pill in space. But that's a real, that's why you're James Cameron

kind of a thing, you know, where you conceived this whole movie you took 25 years to make it. Built out a whole world in your head

and all that. And then you're like, you know what, let's just cut 12 minutes. Yeah. But this guy is kind of unknowable. It's,

it's the- Jake or Jim? Jake. It's part of the reason why it almost- My brother was killed for the paper in his pocket, so. But that's like all you get. Cutting out the scenes that really tried to build who he was as a guy. But that's an intentional story choice in a film called Avatar.

Yes. And you're literally supposed to go inside of this person who could be anybody. It's why Sam Worthington does kind of work in this role. If a guy's too charismatic, you're like, I couldn't be this guy. Sure. Well, that was sort of

why I asked you guys the Damon question because Damon, even though he has every man quality, he's specific. He is specific. I think, I mean,

I just, I would, I would just love to see the Damon version of this movie just out of pure curiosity, but it sounds worse. doesn't honestly um okay so here's what happens uh humans are colonizing pandora this is a lush habitable moon of a gas giant in the alpha centauri star system that it is did we know all this in order to mine the

valuable mineral which is called hit me unobtainium yeah it is right absolutely because you can't obtain it unobtainium yes is the thing that tough to obtain it made it into the script unobtainium unobtainium

which I believe is a a common scientific term for like the thing you know like the sort of X salt for X

question mark the unknowable it is a scientific term right the joke is it's sort of like right what if there was just

some magical rock that I assume would solve all of our problems? So Jake Sully is this, he's a paraplegic marine. He takes the place of his deceased twin brother. This shit is complicated. In the Avatar project. Correct. In which to explore Pandora, genetically matched human scientists use Navi human hybrids

called avatars and then they put them into this world via sort of like a mind mill technological link. Yeah. It's kind of like a very advanced Bluetooth. Correct.

Well put. This is the amount of shit this movie needs to set up in the first 20 minutes. It's like he's a paraplegic. He's a twin. Because he's a twin, the DNA match

for this avatar thing. They've already invested so much into this that they have to get a guy who has zero training or knowledge of the operation. But he happens to be a Marine. He does have

some military experience. Which are pluses and minuses to certain degrees. They're like, that's good. To other degrees, they're like, why are we letting a Marine

in our scientific experiment? To me, the more complicated thing that has to lay out is Ribisi essentially being like, look, Sigourney Weaver, I let you have your weird avatar program as like a side project to my military industrial colonization program. Like, it's not even the main thing. Right. The avatar thing is like a weird thing that's being tolerated as sort of like a science

experiment, science diplomacy. You basically have like three different things. You have Sigourney as like the Jane Goodall and all these scientists who are obsessed with this land, but also obsessed with the technology they have and all the properties of this land, you know, really from an anthropological level, right? Then you have Ribisi who's just like, money, get me that unobtainium. That's your job to win over their trust so I can get more of this rock and mine and then Stephen Lang who is the head of the military right but has a personal vendetta because he hates these people he hates these people but also he's just like I killed everyone I could on earth and now right the war is here

he's scarred this land has almost killed him. He now is waiting for them to give him permission to open fire. So it's the first time we've mentioned Stephen Lang, who I would say is another reason why this movie is successful, because he's an exquisite villain. But you mentioned that there's some Iraq war in this movie, and it certainly feels like there is some... He says shock and awe. ...for hire military apparatus.

Yeah, contractor. Right. Yes, contractors. These are military... And Jake says it in the voiceover. He's like, these guys used to actually fight for, countries and now they're just getting money. Right. So like they're truly kind of like, however you want, passionless or, you kind of get into it quickly. Like it's not that confusing. They do it mostly through voiceover. Which is obviously a bit of a crutch. That's true. And they do have this sort of like, well, you got to do your video diaries.

And Griff, I think you said like, well, he's got to do some exposition for us. There's a scene where Sigourney's like, come on, video diary, video diary. I think she's explaining, she's like, look, it helps you remember the things you're experiencing. It also keeps you in touch with yourself. And I turned to Dave and went,

you know, it speeds the plot along like they're trying to justify in the universe why he would need to do this every day and it's like we know why he needs to do this but it i think it's very successful like it's it works this is the thing the first 40 minutes of this movie are not elegant at all he's aware that he just has to lay out so much road yes to be able to let the thing then soar on a more emotional, static... But I mean, look, Jurassic Park has them watching a movie about how Jurassic Park works. A lot of the movies with this sort of big, complicated sci-fi thing they need to get

across do it bluntly. They cram it through a hole. Jurassic Park is always cited as an example of like, they figured out the right way to do it. Mr. DNA is like funny in universe. This is how they would do it. But Mr. DNA has to win the 40th idea. Oh, absolutely.

Were there like Southern cartoon DNA gentlemen? You know, like that clearly was like the end of a day of meetings. Yes, but Cameron just went, we're just going to get it done. I don't need to be clever about this. We're going to get it done. We cut the first 20 minutes out.

How do we compensate for that? Give him more voiceover. I don't care. Get it over. I was genuinely surprised by how much I thought it worked this time around. Maybe I felt like less so,

but part of it is because there was less wonder for me in going to the world. Sure, you've been there before. I've been there, and so the anticipation that was kind of building, I think the first time

you saw the film, which was like, just take me to the Navi. Take me to Home Train. Take me to all these things. I know, take me to Home Train, take me to all these things. Right, I want to see the animals. I want to see the aliens. I want to see, you know.

So I was thinking much more closely, I think, about the actual construction. No, but here's the other reason you liked it. I hate to sound like a curmudgeon about pop culture today. It's speedy.

It doesn't take a whole season of television to explain why Jake Sully maybe can use a bow and arrow, which is how it would work now. It's not like, God bless him, a comic book movie where it's like, well, we're going to give you chapter one, part one of a 50-part story here. Like, excuse me.

So much so, though, and this is really getting ahead of ourselves. When the movie's over, I'm like, we don't need any more of these. We did it. I know what you mean. Walking out of the first one, I felt so resolute that he should never touch it again. That is my, you know, sort of like concern about the sequels where I'm like,

I wonder if I need more. The ending is also pretty goddamn perfect for this movie. It resolves itself so completely. The thing I have always sort of sensed and guessed is that Jake is perhaps less central in these sequels.

They've obviously added a lot of new characters, and they talk a lot about the kids. Right. So there'll be other stuff. He's in them, but maybe it's not his story anymore, because it does feel like his story is pretty resolved by the end of this film. Well, not to jump ahead.

We've jumped way ahead, but it's reasonable, because the film makes a hard transition away from the kind of explanation of its premise into Pandora. And the bulk of explanation of its premise into pandora and and the bulk of the film then takes place for right in case you're wondering this is a deep wizard of azomage among other things um and most of the film then takes place inside of this avatar figure and he you know encounters the navi and it sort of starts to insinuate himself into their culture. And we see this beautiful landscape, which...

Okay, here's my next question. I want to hear Bobby's point of view on this too because I watched this movie again in 3D. I've only seen this movie in a theater in 3D. Same. Well, you've probably seen it at home in 3D because you actually own a 3D TV like a weirdo. I do.

I bought the last model of 3D TV that was made before they discontinued it. I was just reminded of this phenomenon because I revisited This is the End and there's a scene at the beginning

of This is the End where Jay Baruchel and Seth Rogen watch a 3D TV all day and get super stoned. And I was like, oh yeah, this was a thing you could do.

You could watch a 3D TV. And now I'm like the only person who still does it. But no, I've watched it in 2D at home as well. Me too.

Bobby, you watch the movie at home. You just revisit it. Yeah, on a TV. Flat. Correct. How big a TV are we talking? 55? That's pretty good.

Very, very robust. 55 lights off, middle of the night. Everyone else was asleep. Headphones on, which is how I watch my media. Because you have to, because I don't have the sound bar. Did it look not like a video game? It looked kind of like a video game. though the reason this is the first time i revisited this film since i saw it in theaters i was 13 years old when i saw it for the first time

sheesh disgusting and i was not at a time in my life where i was like open to people telling me that something was important and then also thinking that it was important if that makes sense yeah you mean like... He just changed the way you're going to make movies for the rest of human history. And I was like, I don't care. I was like, why would I care about that? I play video games five hours a day.

This just looks like a video game to me. So you didn't like the movie that much? No, I didn't like it at all. And I've been an Avatar hater for the better part of the last ten decades okay the last decade it feels like 10 decades is how long camera will make us for audience live honestly yeah and i watched last night thought it was great but i think that like being so removed from the hubbub around the discourse around how the movie was made and why it was important and why it's making all

this money and why all these people are rushing out to the theater to see it in this experience. It just works as a movie. It wasn't burdened for you, but also is it because you've been existing in pop culture for the last 10 years? I don't see every superhero movie like that, though. I'm much more selective than the taste of the big picture is. I mean, I

threw these stats out at David the other day and he lifted them for an Atlantic article. Did you want credit? Should I say, like, as my friend Griffin Newman said on our text thread with the Doughboys. Yes, I'm giving myself credit here on the big picture. That's a common thing that you find in the Atlantic, by the way.

Absolutely. I was texting with my buddy. That's a real strikethrough by the... Glossy magazine finish to it. As said in the blank Dough group text. I will put it on the record on the big picture. I lifted this right from Griffin. I was doing the math.

The entire Despicable Me Minions franchise exists in between Avatar and The Way of Water. Right? That's five movies plus theme park. No, it's six? No, I guess four hasn't come out. Yeah, four is coming out next year, I think. Sure, sure, sure.

Right. At the time that Avatar comes out, there are two Marvel movies. Iron Man and Hulk. We're now up to 31? 30. 30. So there are 28 Marvel films in between two Avatars.

I said in my article 27, and then my fact checker, Elyse, shouted Elyse, was like, well, actually, Black Panther's coming out before Avatar 2. And I was like, you're right, you're right. Wakanda forever, right? So 28. They announced that they are recasting Tobey Maguire and resetting Spider-Man, not doing Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 4 a month after Avatar comes out. Right, so we've had two additional Spider-Men.

Two full Spider-Men and the Let's Bring Everyone Back movie since then. You think about the amount of stuff that has been jammed on our throats in pop culture since then. Obviously, the entire DCEU reboot. All that, sure. Right? Nolan wasn't done with his Batman trilogy at that point in time.

And the power of balance in the DCEU will have changed the balance of power. The hierarchy of power. The hierarchy of power will change from Black Adam enters.

So, in this same article that was clearly stolen from Griffin by David, I needed to file. I thought you very smartly observed. Well, the premise of the piece was like,

Hollywood hasn't learned their lesson from this movie. It was like post-Avatar, you would think Hollywood would think like, oh, original sort of like big, you know, expensive properties resonate with audiences and movies where you take your time making them so they look really nice and the action is really crisp is a good idea.

And also 3D, you should use carefully and use cameras and think about how you're, and it said, Hollywood was like, everything should be IP, make these things as fast as possible and just previs the action 3d, slap it on at the end. Who cares? It's five bucks extra for us.

No one will ever get sick of that. But also one clean story. You talk about the, the lack of cultural stickiness with Avatar. They tried to do all the transmedia stuff, right? They tried to do the video game that was a side story. They tried to do comic spinoffs. They did a Cirque du Soleil show, which Griffin and I have seen.

We saw that. They did a Cirque du Soleil Avatar show? To Rook the First Flight. Yeah, yeah. We did an episode on it. It's the origin story of the biggest banshee in this movie. We saw it at the Barclays Center courtside. Yeah.

We bought nosebleed tickets and we showed up and they went, do you want courtside tickets instead? They were like, it's pretty roomy out there. You want to sit in row one? They just upgraded us on the day. They did all this stuff and none of it really connected, right? The only thing that I'd argue outside of

the movie that has worked. The theme park is just obviously being able to exist in that space, which they've replicated perfectly, is a really good fit. The rides are good. But all that other stuff doesn't work. And it's because it is not a movie like Star Wars where you're so fascinated by all these little things happening at the margins, right? It is a very efficient, workmanlike story told very well and sweeping emotions. And broad.

And it's like the Drabisi character is the evil businessman. Lange is the evil military guy. You know, the Na'vi, there's a little more there, but it's broad intentionally. It is the native people's story that have been invaded. I know there are people on Reddit

who are like, I've trained myself to lucid dream so I can go visit Pandora. You know, obviously, it inspired fanaticism. There is an extraordinary episode of How To With John Wilson. I don't know if you guys have watched it. Oh, I've seen it inspired fanaticism. There is an extraordinary episode of How To With John Wilson. I don't know if you guys have watched that series.

Oh, I've seen it. Oh, yes. Featuring a group of Avatar superfans. Who've never let go. Who have not let go. And what a year this must be for. I worry for them. No one is interested in the Avatar expanded universe.

I think even the Avatar fanatics have not really responded to any of that stuff. I found out they launched an MMO in the last two years that has already shut down. One of those things that feels obvious to do an open world Avatar game, and they like launched it in a couple of countries and went, eh, this isn't working. Well, it'll be interesting to see if the surroundings kind of marketing and apparatus after the way of water applies some of these learnings because I, you know, the piece is so right on, David, because it's not just that they didn't

learn any of the lessons. They actually inverted the entire lesson. I mean, and we find ourselves a little bit at a crisis point in terms of the quality of franchise filmmaking.

I've talked about it on the show. You guys have talked about it as you've covered recent releases. Like, a lot of these movies look pretty bad. You don't think

Black Adam's going to hit? I mean, it might hit, but that doesn't mean it's good. I mean, at the very least, a lot of these movies look pretty bad. You don't think Black Adam's going to hit? I mean, it might hit, but that doesn't mean it's good. I mean, at the very least, the hierarchy of power will change.

Even more so, though, like, one of the interesting things about Cameron, who wrote and directed this movie, is that most franchise films, you can see the seams.

You can see where they have been hacked and repositioned. Actually, I was listening to you guys talk about The Woman King, and you were talking about Doctor Strange 2, and how there are huge swath about The Woman King and you were talking about Doctor Strange 2 and how there are huge swaths

of that movie that you can just see they just lopped off. And this happens all the time. A lot of Marvel movies are sort of made like choose-your-own-adventure books now where they will shoot

alternate pathways of what they could do with the story so they can just make a decision later in post. It's so funny you say that. I won't say what the film is but I know that there is

a prestige awards-bait film coming this fall that uses the exact same approach. I'll tell you off mic. Okay, I can't take it. But anyhow, you can feel that. And as a moviegoer, in fact, you're probably more willing to forgive it than ever because you're trained to see that there's like tributaries here

that are not really followed in the storytelling. Avatar doesn't feel that way at all. No, here's another thing, and I think it speaks to why this movie doesn't have like quippy all. Here's another thing, and I think it speaks to why this movie doesn't have like quippy quotables, you know, these sort of meme moments,

all this. Every single thing this movie is doing is in service of telling this one very clean story. You know, you have like one character arc, it's told in big sweeping movements.

A lot of it is very inelegant and broad. But it is, we're going to start with a guy who's never heard of Pandora and is a paraplegic veteran, and it will end with, he is an alien. Right.

And is the leader of their clan. It is so perfectly engineered, this movie. Right? It is really constructed like machinery. I mean, he's thinking about this film like an auto mechanic and just making sure all the gears fit into one another. I do

feel like watching it again, I was thinking about our friends, Podcast the Riot, a great podcast about theme parks, but also other pop culture marginalia. They're three comedians and comedy writers,

and they always talk about how weird the job of writing jokes for theme parks and theme park rides is, right? When there's comedy in a ride or a pre-ride video or any of those things, how bizarre it is because these things cost

so much fucking money. If you build one, you're betting that it's going to stay there for decades. And they need to work for people of all ages across decades, shifting cultural tides from different countries

with different levels of comprehension of the language and everything. And it does feel like Avatar is constructed in a similar way. When you read the sort of scriptment, you can read the sort of pitch of what he wrote in 1995 when he first tried to make this movie, and it was called

Project 440 or something like that. Great title. It was much closer to Aliens in tone. It was much more brutal, it was R-rated, it was edgier. And it was the mid-90s that was what was demanded, I feel like. And as time went on, and he looked into the technology and figured out what it was going to

take to make this movie, I think he realized this movie has to work for everyone. If I'm going to build something this big, this expensive, this much technology, I have to paint this as broadly as possible because this needs to work in every country for every age. I cannot be

excluding anyone from this movie. I think that turned some people off because they were like, this movie feels so nonspecific. Half of these characters only speak in cliches, you know? Down to the military guy saying, get some. You know,

everything Stephen Lang says feels like if you're trying to, in an improv scene, create the shorthand of a military guy in a movie. He's a Frankenstein

of 10 military sergeants. Right. There's an inelegance to these things that is just in the name of effect. You know?

We just have to get it done and we have to make it so that it's not flying over anyone's head or going underneath the radar. I think that's because most of his movies

feel like they're happening out of time. And he doesn't, to your point about the no smirky, smarmy jokes and bits, like, there are, of course,

Arnold moments in his films that are very kind of like laugh lines, but they're not quite the same as the winking at the audience MCU style communication. No, never this really. Right.

And so this movie in its way, it feels old fashioned, but it also doesn't age. It's also, while it is an original story, it's just like hugely inspired by not just The Wizard of Oz, but like lots of John Ford movies.

And you can see like the history of movies and the telling of this story. Some of those stories are wildly insensitive or don't necessarily fully understand how to negotiate their themes versus their narrative storytelling, which this movie I think is like kind of an interesting portal to that discussion too. Because on the one hand, you're right, Griffin, like it's a very streamlined straight ahead story with not a lot of jokes and not a lot of side plots. But it's a big idea

movie a huge idea movie actually like and your reaction in 2009 to the culture completely and like so it's it's a movie about colonization for sure it's a movie about ecology for sure it's a movie about this like the thing that comes up over and over again for me when i revisited it was like the lone voice conundrum, which is like, can a single person speak loudly enough to change a culture? Because that's like, the Jake Sully character is like,

I see it from your perspective and I also see it from someone else's perspective. Can I get through, can I see the world through someone else's eyes? It's the premise of the movie. He's truly working,

he's serving two different masters at the same time for most of the movie, maybe even three. He's serving three because it's really Sigourney, Lange, and, you know, Neytiri or the clan

all have a piece of him. And he's relating to all three perspectives. There are degrees to which he agrees with all three of them. I also think this is not a movie

re-watching it that as much as something like Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, whichever one of these movies you want to throw out there. Interloper movies. I kind of feel like,

aside from the fact that obviously he does end up conquering the biggest banshee, right? He does this flex move to earn their respect. No one ever thought to do that. No one thought to do that. I don't really feel like this movie positions him as the best of all of them. I think when you have these white interloper movies,

it almost always becomes, and they're even better at the thing than the people who they just interlope. There's also a significant practical difference which is because of the technology he looks like them.

Yes. He doesn't look like Kevin Costner in a tribe. No. He literally assimilates. And he fully makes the sacrifice at the end of the movie

to become them permanently irrevocably. I don't, you know, but like imagine if there was a movie about like, if like The Last of imagine if there was a movie about, like if like The Last of the Mohicans was about Daniel Day-Lewis

entering the constructed body of a Native American. Right, yes. Piloting it with his brain and being like, hello, I'm one of you. And then being like, well, we're not sure if you are one of us. Like that's a different movie.

And it is. There's no movie like this. It is. I wouldn't say it's without fault, but it does feel relatively sensitive, especially for a movie made by James Cameron. Yes.

It gets away with it by not obviously being about any particular earthbound It's an alien story. Right, right. But certainly every Navi is played

by an actor of color, right? Yes, yes. Like it's certainly the main Navi. Yeah, the four speaking ones. Right, and

obviously it is, you know, drawing from all kinds of you know peoples of earth one right like yes but it's really trying to also be very non-specific right it's about aliens so we can get away with it okay this leads me to the most important question of this podcast okay what's up is avatar good yeah it's really good it's really good it just fucking works it's one of those things for me where, like, you know, a movie I feel similarly about is Top Gun Maverick, which I also saw three times in theaters.

It's not my favorite movie of the year. Every line in that movie, which is great, is a cliche. Yes. Every single line. It's a similar movie where it's like, you understand everything this movie's going to do from the opening scene.

You understand everything it's setting up. It's telling... But you're just sort of like shaking its hand and you're like, I gotta give it to him, man. There are reasons cliches exist. And I think part of

that movie's success is we've been living in this culture where A, every movie is so self-referential, snarky, meta, I bet you think we're gonna do this,

this isn't that kind of movie. To the expense of basically coherent, functional storytelling. Right. The movies are so caught up in telling you, we know you've seen movies before,

so we're going to... Or the thing, we were just talking about Trevorrow. Trevorrow? I'll never know. Trevorrow. You know, he's done this recent round

of interviews about Dominion where he's like, well, maybe they shouldn't have made sequels to these movies. Like, it's impossible. And, you know, go off.

Okay, whatever. Let me just say, as a self-abnegator, I do appreciate when someone who's been enormously successful is like, probably shouldn't be successful yeah publicly i never think i've done any of the things yeah yeah but as i've said to griffin about especially about dominion that felt like him being like well what the audience is expect and want is this so i'll do this instead and it's like why don't you give them what they expect and want but do it really

really well like that might actually work for you strategy A better strategy. Right. And of course, he's saying he'll say, one, I made a billion dollars and two, I shouldn't have made any movie anyway. And I'm like, okay, because he won both sides of the argument, buddy. Top Gun, I saw three times in theaters just because it was much like Avatar, so exciting to watch with the crowd. You just get caught

up in that sort of saga. You know where it's going from the beginning, even watching a second time where you know distinctly point for point where it's going. You get so caught up in it. Third time I saw it, I saw it like a month into its release, still selling out, right? I go and see it with a friend. She's reacting to every moment. And then the movie ends and she's like, well, that's not good.

She was like, I assume she was like, that's corny. It's corny, it's stupid, it's cliche, nothing cliche nothing in that movie makes sense and i went but it works yeah you it did in every scene it gave you the emotional rush it wanted to you can intellectually go well i know the tricks it's playing on me it's not elegant you know uh but it works but my counter to your Top Gun thing, can I make a counter to this Top Gun thing? Is like, I agree with you basically. Yeah. But Top Gun,

we know what Top Gun is. We know who Maverick is. We know how the planes work. Sure. Avatar does have to one, set everything up, which is a huge challenge. And then at the back end have to be like,

and so we can use this tree to download people's brains into other bodies. You know, like it actually has a lot of work to do at the end as well that it also successfully emotionally gets through, if that makes sense. Like, Awa has heard us. The animals are on our side.

That's, that's the tale as old as time. I get that. But then, but then also like, let's wrap Jake up in a bunch of tree branches so we can turn his brain into...

You need to have it fail with Sigourney to understand. When they have a scene where it fails with Sigourney, I was like, this serves such a crucial narrative purpose. But also, we've got like 30 minutes left and they haven't gotten to the war yet. And yet it's satisfying. It's wild. It's just impressively put together. That's all I'm saying.

Can I compare it to another more recent movie that I was reminded of when I watched yesterday was Dune. Dune. Dune. compared to another more recent movie that i was reminded of when i watched yesterday was dune deneval news dune like it's a movie that rewards you the more you give yourself over to it i just have dune on now it's amazing you guys don't do this i i don't but i recommend it it's actually quite different to me because when i put avatar on my tv screen as i said it's just not nearly as effective and it lessens my opinion of it whereas Dune I did see in a movie theater and actually one of the

best movie going experiences I've had in like the last five years but it looks good on TV and so it has a kind of like it's almost like you know it's like a screen saver

in a way you know it's so beautifully designed that you can withstand it but I think you're right Bobby that like it's a very sincere movie same thing

very sincere filmmaker who loves this story and is very right it's a very sincere movie. Same thing, very sincere filmmaker. Dune loves this story. And it's very light on the winks to the camera. It's very heavy on the buy-in. Personally, I prefer the world of Dune over the world of Avatar because it feels more tactile and realistic. And the desert, the sand. It's cooler.

Exactly. It is cooler. Avatar is cool. Not cool. It's relaxing. It's closer to what you know in real life sure but the thing that worked for me

this time about Avatar is that if you just suspend all of your disbelief then it's an amazing movie and isn't that what we're asking for like when we go

to watch a movie like we're not asking to just have our lives reflected back to us exactly unless we are in which case

we go see like a cynical movie made by like a 45 year old guy who's really sad about the world and that's fine too there's space for that

I like those movies those can be good but this movie was not trying to be that and it never was no and to a certain degree the fact that any one scene of this movie

taken on its own does not really work if you watch any YouTube clip of this movie in isolation you can just siphon the fact that it's not on a big screen it will feel really clunky to you.

It could. And goofy and silly. It's because we're now into these movies that are so constructed of moments, right? Yeah. Every moment's got to pop, got to have something, some sort of hook. This is like a full meal experience where he wants you to just watch the entire sort of orchestral movement of this thing in whole. It's weirdly like a five act movie and the middle the third act of five is pretty much just an hour of straight

vibes yeah like you know the first 40 minutes are so much just bricklaying right just time spent deep in pandora yes and then act two is like Jake entering, you know, the world and, you know, all that. Act three is training, essentially, but that is what you're talking about when you say vibes. Falling in love,

flying, a lot of flying, which feels very old fashioned. That feels very old Hollywood. It's like, you know, it's like a 30s movie. Yes,

where it's like, well, there's going to be an action sequence. What is it? He flies around on a big pterodactyl. I'm like, does he fight anyone? No,

no, it's just really fun. It's just really fun for the audience to watch him fly. But it's also, and if we're in 40 X, which Griffin, I were, you're sitting.

our seats were rumbling. Uh, the, um, the, the dialogue, which people will call out for being sort of all cliche laden as the movie goes on, they speak less and less.

And I did key into something watching it this time, which is all the clunky dialogue pretty much comes from the human characters. There's no cringeworthy stuff from the Navi. It almost feels like all the humans in this movie are playing roles. Right. They're all right. And part of it is, unlike a lot of movies, Cameron doesn't want you to relate to the humans. When people go, why aren't the Marines in this as compelling as the Marines and aliens? It's like, because you're supposed to like the Marines.

Evil villains who bring down home tree, like at the touch of a button, like while they're drinking coffee. And the whole point is, when you get immersed in Pandora, through the act where Jake is fully getting immersed in Pandora, you need to feel like, fuck, this is a better way to live.

This seems more relaxing. These people are less annoying. It is less annoying spending time with the Navi than spending time with Norm Spellman. It's interesting, and I wonder if he hadn't made Aliens, if he could have arrived at that. Because Aliens, obviously, the xenomorph is this sort of, like, voiceless monster that is only about terrorizing and killing humans.

Has no personnel. It's nothing. And so the Marines get to be deeply charismatic, individualized, memorable. They're like a grab bag of fun personnel. You don't have movies really like this where the filmmaker is trying to get

you to root against your species. Right. Oh yeah. You know, very often when we talk about these sort of colonialist interloper movies, it's like, well, you're rooting against the bad kind of white person. Right. And your noble white person who is defending

this culture. This is like a little bit of a dicey question. I hope you'll receive it in good faith. Do you think that in a time in which we all kind of hate ourselves, that Avatar actually makes more sense. I think there's something to Jake Sully being like essentially a class traitor. Right?

Right. That he's just like fuck humanity. He's a species traitor. I believe they call him that, right? Right. Don't they call him that at one point? Like a species traitor or a race traitor or something insane like that? Yeah.

It is the like the masterstroke at the end of this movie is like, no, he's fully out on being a human. Right. He's done. Take me. What do they do with his body? Dump it. They just dump it in the water. It's an amazing question.

Yeah. Amazing question. There's a whole other aspect of this. There's a sort of nitpicking that can go on where it's sort of like, where is the avatar body at this time? Oh, dude. When we're watching, we're seeing real Jake and he's out and about doing stuff. Can I bring up, it's one specific thing.

It's one specific thing. Obviously, the thing is that if he goes to sleep, he wakes up, right? In his human body. And so after the first night, he goes to sleep

in the little pod with Neytiri. Then he wakes up and he has a whole morning. That's the exact time where I was like, where is the Avatar body? He has a Leng conversation that's long and time where I was like, where is the avatar body? He has a Lange conversation that's long.

And then he gets coffee with Sigourney and Joel David Moore. And then she says, okay, you better get in there. You know, the day starts early. And I'm like, it's probably like 11 a.m. What do you mean the day starts early? Is he just still asleep? And he's going to like wake up and everyone's going to be like, yeah, bro, we already like, you know, got all today's food. Or is he having like

2am granola and coffee right that's the question does everyone just wake up in the middle of the night anyway they never answer it

I think the answer is he's just asleep in his avatar body he's just lying there yes and then when he wakes up it seems dangerous in this world

in which there are all these creatures and also he's in a hammock that's like 400 feet in the air. That's a good point. But I think that first day, he literally just wakes up late and is like, hey, guys. And they're probably all just like. This weird human avatar.

Exactly. Shadow body. I mean, they should chop his head off immediately. They should be like, you are an abomination. It is the part of this that I think about the most when watching the film. The concept is so bizarre if you imagine it from the perspective of the Navi, right? Which they live in this society, this like utopian society that is pretty much devoid of technology. They're in concert with a moon that has a neural network embedded in its soil. They know their God.

Like they speak to their God. They're operating on a higher plane. And their god is like their collective memories that they upload their entire lives. Right. And then someday...

This is all insane stuff that the movie sort of just glances against. Yes. One random day, suddenly a bunch of new people from your species show up and go,

just so you know, we're not actually of your species. Wearing like Stanford hoodies. Right. And they're like, hey, what's up? We were developed in a lab

where actually the consciousness of some dude in a tank in a ship up in the sky, we're here to help teach you. There is a version of this story that has been told before, and it's told in the film Galaxy Quest. Yes. Sure. In which the aliens appear. Yes.

And they very much look like people who would attend a convention. Right. For Galaxy Quest, even though they are aliens. Yes. And they very much look like people who would attend a convention. Right. For Galaxy Quest, even though they are aliens. Right. And they don't actually speak the language and they don't look like humans. Yeah. So it is a convention that has been tried for.

That's a satire of a certain kind of a movie. And when they go off to the spaceship, there's a moment where you see them as horrible squid monsters. And then they turn back on their human disguise and they go, look, we just know it makes you more comfortable if we look like you. Right. Which is essentially what this is doing. Exactly. They're showing up and going,

hey, just so you know, we're humans, but we think you'll trust us more if we look like this. They're not pretending to be actual Navi. Then she has this whole, like, build a school,

try to connect, really appreciate the land thing. But it's just, right, it's like missionary stuff. Before the trust is totally destroyed and at the time Jake Sully shows up, you're just like, they must be like missionary stuff. Before the trust is totally destroyed, and at the time Jake Sully shows up,

you're just like, they must be thinking not again. And the characters kind of respond that way, but they don't respond violently. But again, isn't that so audacious for a new film based on nothing that has to do all this stuff, where he shows up to the tribe and they're like, we've already seen a bunch of you doing this. And we have to just be like, I guess they've seen a bunch of them doing it.

What a weird movie. That's a weird movie. So weird. He would never have gotten to make it if he hadn't made Titanic. How do you know English? She doesn't respond. And then like an hour later in the locker, you see the photos of her with the school. Right.

Grace Augustine, the Sigourney character. And then they sort of just subtly explain. And it's kind of affecting. Right. And like there's that moment where she's back and she gets to see the kids again. And they're like, oh, you look nice.

You know, like, and you're like, oh, that's sort of sweet. This failed effort to coexist with them. What good luck though that he was saved by a character

that speaks English by one of the, I mean, this is by the chief conveniences. Yeah. Well, and also that she's going to kill him and then a magical dandelion

lands on the arrow. I love when that happens. When a magical dandelion lands on my arrow. I love when that happens. When a magical dandelion lands on my arrow. One of my favorite things. I want a spotlight here because we were talking about this movie.

I really love when she shows up and she's like, you're like a baby. She's so cool. I want a spotlight because we were saying this movie isn't about the character,

isn't about the performance, whatever. She is so fucking good in this. She was on my ballot that year. Same. She made the five. I think she absolutely

should have been nominated for Best Actress. That was obviously a bias. It was never going to happen. It was very much a sort of like that. Anti-mocap thing. It's a tech thing. But you can really feel like, watching it again now, I don't think the technology feels aged as much as you can just recognize there is a subtlety of performance that can come

across in motion capture now that we didn't have the receptors to capture 13 years ago. There's one other aspect of it, though. There are Roland Thanos micro-expressions

that you can tell this technology could not support at the time. And Saldana knows exactly how much to push through the technology to give this very

expressive performance versus someone like Worthington who's a lot more stoic. It's deeper than that, though, too. Obviously, we've seen her do something somewhat similar as Gamora in the Marvel movies. But something that she does,

I was reminded of this because I watched Boogie Nights right around the same time as this movie. I listened to the entire podcast. Thank you for listening. It was four and a half hours. We'll beat that on this episode. Simmons isn't done with the rewatchables,

by the way. I'm not at liberty to say. God damn it. Let's go off of me. So we talked about Burt Reynolds and how Burt Reynolds to me and we'll beat that on this episode Simmons isn't done with the rewatchables by the way I'm not at liberty to say so we talked about Burt Reynolds and how Burt Reynolds to me was always the greatest athlete actor

that like there was a kind of physicality that he brought to films that really very few actors have brought to the table right he's authentic in a way

that's hard to be I buy it and that can be helpful to a movie sometimes it doesn't matter sometimes it's funny when someone isn't quite good at that.

But Zoe Saldana is very similarly a great physical performer and athletic performer. Dance background. That's the big thing I was really clocking watching at this time of year.

You just understand that this person gets their body as an instrument and really understands on a technical level. And she is like a Gamora too,

obviously, as she's supposed to be. But her acting is movement, right? Her hand gestures in this. She understands that's a thing that's going to work. Yeah. It's also just the more of two, obviously, she's supposed to be. Yeah, but her acting is movement, right? Her hand gestures in this, she understands that's a thing that's going to work. Yeah. It's also the challenge

she's facing, and at this point, she's not a very well-known actor at all, right, when she's starting making this, because this is even before

Star Trek or whatever. she gets cast in Star Trek after doing the motion capture for this, but before it comes out. That's interesting. It's like, that she really feels

like a Na'vii which is not something i know about yeah and like and it doesn't i'm not like oh she's doing x like she's doing some earth culture that i'll recognize she's just doing this kind of weird mishmashy accent and sort of way of speaking where i'm like this is what is this accent and it's not anything right and it could go so wrong and it must have felt so weird on set. But she just helped

invent a species. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you have Wes Studi playing her father in this. And CCH founder.

Right. But Wes Studi often is brought onto these films not just to act but to help be the sort of cultural consultant. Right. He knows from this kind

of interloper film. For when he's making films about indigenous Americans, he's often the one who's teaching them movements, right. He knows from this kind of interloper film. For when he's making films about indigenous Americans, he's often the one who's teaching them movements, language, all of this. And yet she's the one where it's like, I believe this as a specific culture here. It really feels precise.

I also think our buddies who do the Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood podcast, a great movie podcast that's about people of color in Hollywood films and the way they're depicted in different eras and all of that. Dara Milligan, one of the hosts of that, always talks about clocking in those movies, the Hollywood movies, if they let the person of color, who's often the leader, the co-lead, ultimately be the one who takes down the big bad in action films, right?

And very often it's like, if it's a buddy cop film, the white guy is the one who takes it down, you know? They won't let the black star be the one who fires the gun and kills the white baddie. You know? They deprive them of that thing. There's a line that can't be crossed. This is a movie where Natiri is the one who ends up... She pumps him full of arrows.

Killing Quaritch with their nature weapon. Yeah. You know? It's not Jake Sully with a gun. It's her with the poison tip arrows that he's talked about in the opening scene. Yeah. She is, she remains the most powerful Navee throughout the entire movie. And to some degree, Jake Sully's skill is just submitting himself to them and going,

I want to help rather than I'm the best at this. He can double fist the grenades. It's pretty cool when he does that. There's one interesting paradox, which is that this is a very thoughtful and sensitive movie, and it could, gone wrong, could be quite disastrous, honestly,

in this story. So, so humiliating. Yes. James Cameron is quite notoriously and in many ways self-admitted a tyrant and very hard on the people that he works with and hard charging. Right.

And I would say is increasingly and vocally a bastion of progressive values. Yes. But I don't necessarily know how he lives his truth. And so it's so interesting

that a classical domineering Cecil B. DeMille style me, megalomaniacal filmmaker. Not only that, one of the most financially successful, rich filmmakers of all time is making this movie that's like, modern culture sucks, businesses suck, we should all just go back to nature. It's a hardcore anti-corporation movie. Hardcore. Hardcore. Anti-military, everything about it.

It's like, it is why I think it's necessary that all that stuff feels so clunky and cliched. Because it has to ring false. It can't be even like accidentally entertaining, you know? And as much as I think Lange is great in this movie, you could see them getting a bigger actor who really ate it up and gave one of those like, oh, you love to hate this guy performances. Whereas Lange is very skilled at playing a guy where you're like, I kind of just want to see him die. This guy really sucks.

Yeah, he's really compelling, though. Yes, he is. Okay, so I have a critical aftermath question here. So, this film's budget was $237 million. I think that's also I feel like this is a movie where they've never actually told us the real number, especially when you consider how much time he spent. This is often the case, but in this case,

maybe it's significantly lower than what it should have cost. It's box office, I think now it's actually higher than this, but it's listed at $2.878 billion. It's somewhere around there. It's close to $3 billion. So is it possible that its reputation i think both critically and kind of in the wider world but more specifically the latter is lower because it was so successful that because it was the biggest movie ever in a pretty short period of time in about 12

months the least underground film ever made so how could you ever be like you know i'm i'm discovering avatar over here or whatever and yet another symptom of i think what you guys put your finger on with our modern movie culture i don't think endgame has that problem i think in fact endgame continues to be a movie myself included people were just like i liked that movie yeah that's a fun movie yeah it's also we're just still living in that world even if it feels like well that was a natural endpoint culmination of this thing like we're constantly being reminded of it. Low-key, Endgame probably should have been it.

Oh, yeah. Well, they could have walked away. I mean, they never would have, but if they could have, you would have been like, bravo. And of course,

they wouldn't have, but a huge part of its success was that they were like, well, you were like, wow, they kind of wrapped it up. They pulled it off, yeah. Good job.

And then, of course, they were like, phase four begins. And I was like, I don't know like I don't know I don't know if that's a good idea I mean David and I

are humongous box office nerds right Titanic had the record domestically and worldwide at the box office until Avatar

there was 12 years in between where it was like nothing's gonna be like Titanic Titanic was it's not that it opened big it's that it ran big

for four months nothing's gonna do that something big would come along like Spider-Man or Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings where people would go. Maybe this could challenge it. Dark Knight came close. But it was, it had made $600 million domestic

and no other movie ever even got to $500 million until the Dark Knight. It was like the gulf between one and two was huge. Now, you know, Avatar's the first thing to actually beat it. And since then, we've had Endgame, Black Panther, Infinity War, Force Awakens, a lot of movies, even Jurassic World that got at that higher echelon number. Minions, The Rise of Gru. There's a lot more turnover at the top of the box office now.

There used to be a top 10 where you're like, oh yeah, these feel like 10 of the biggest movies of all time. E.T. is still in there. Star Wars. Star Wars is still in there. You know? Now it's like, which movie is a Disney release in the last year? Three of them are in the all-time top 10.

It's so funny you say that too, because it's the inverse of what has happened with music, where for years I covered music, and in the world of music, the top 10 selling albums of all time have basically been the same since 1987. And probably will never change, right? You know, it's Thriller. It's the Eagles' greatest hits.

It's Saturday Night Fever soundtrack. It's Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill. There's like a handful of records where it's like these are never going to get knocked off and it's never going to change. And so this codifies a 40-year period in American popular music. Right. And it did feel like the box office did that. And now it doesn't at all. Now it doesn't.

Now it's a bummer. And the things that are at the top of the all-time list are mostly things, ongoing narratives that we're still living in. I mean, another stat is like, at the time James Cameron releases Avatar, Disney has not yet bought Star Wars. Yeah, right. Star Wars is a closed book. It hasn't even bought Marvel. No. Yeah. Right. Star Wars is a closed book. No, it hasn't even bought Marvel.

No. Yeah. Right. I mean, just all these ongoing sagas. Those songs are distributed by Paramount. Yes. I have my Iron Man DVD. It's a Paramount disc.

Yes. Yeah. You know, we're living in this culture where it is this, you know, serialized narratives. We're watching the latest episode of these stories. It's what is sort of so compelling about the Way of Water thing where he talks about, like, we built a writer's room.

We wrote four scripts simultaneously. They are each individual movies. They're not really sequels to each other. And I just can't even conceptualize what these things are. Table this one. Let's take a very quick break. And then we're going to just spend a little time previewing our feelings about the way of water. Okay. Very quick break, and then we're going to just spend a little time previewing our feelings about the way of water. Okay?

Okay. In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no. Turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage bacon and egg, a crispy seasoned chicken one, mmm, a spicy end egg, worth the detour. They sound amazing.

Bet they taste amazing, too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. For those who don't know, it's not just one Avatar sequel. There is a theoretically planned four more sequels over the next, I don't know, eight or nine years. Is that kind of the roadmap for these films? But, I mean, two and three have been filmed. Yes. I think four and...

Cameron is the director of two and three have been filmed. Yes. I think four... Cameron is the director of two and three for sure. And I think four and five remain more theoretical, pre-production-y. He's got scripts. He's done some amount of capture.

But, like, two and three, he's got everything he needs in the can. Let's just say, before we get into our anticipation or speculation

about the story, let's just say, for the sake of conversation, The Way of Water makes $800 million worldwide, which for most films would be an absolute home run.

Would be great. Right. And for this film would probably be considered a massive disappointment. Even though it would be outgrossing the original film. This is kind of the camera

No, world wide. World wide. World wide. Oh, sure. You know the soft failures of hugely successful movies? Yeah, like if it does like a F9. Right. No offense to that. No, no, no. It's a very good example. Yes successful movies? If it does like a F9, no offense to that.

No, no, no. It's a very good example. Yes, yes. Where it's like, look, everyone made money. It's fine. We're going to keep this thing going. But I'm not sensing whatever. The peak has been passed.

As he puts it, you know, they didn't want to pot commit to four sequels in case two or three flop. It's really two, right? Because everyone was worried about the gap between the films. Do people still want to go back to Pandora or whatever? He was like, if we have four films in the can and two flops, we're going to look really silly having three.

So let's only commit to two now. And the second two works financially. We'll pull the trigger on four and five and go straight into those. They're ready to go. This is kind of like Divergent. Remember when they remember when they made divergent this is gonna be five movie series and then all of a sudden the fourth movie it's just like straight to vod like no it didn't happen said it was gonna go straight to vod and then they were like they not let's not even make they never even made it because the actors refused to do it it's so amazing that is it is the that is the

perfect example of like we're gonna make these kinds of movies forever. People love Divergent 2. They're like, we're not going to make part four. And everyone's like, yeah, we don't care. That's not a big deal. Four was supposed to be intransigent. Is that what it was? Yeah.

But I think to your question, right? If it makes $800 million worldwide, do they green light four and five? My answer is, I think they do. I think if it makes anything over a billion worldwide, it's greenlight.

We're going, yeah. Right. Especially these days. Seems like a little bit of a disappointment. Well, I'm going to assume this movie, the sequel's coming out in China,

right? Yes. Because these things are so massive in China, but movies don't come out in China anymore. Yes. Hollywood movies, I mean.

And the re-release of this in China was huge. And that come out in China anymore. Yes. Hollywood movies, I mean. And the re-release of this in China was huge. And that is going to be a chunk of change. That's going to be a really big deal. Because, like, Top Gun Maverick, I think, got to, like, 1.8 billion or whatever the hell is it at without China. Without China. And that's where it's like, holy cow, it did it all without China. How did they get this movie into China? It's Avatar 1 was such a...

Oh, you mean, like, the original one? No, no, no. I know that they reintroduced it to China after the fact, but given what's... I mean, this is a whole other podcast. It's actually quite interesting and we've already said

the Great Wall in this episode, so you could do it, but I once upon a time wrote about this too, about the reliance that Hollywood had on China. Which is over. Which is gone now.

It's over. And that's what they... I don't know if people realize that it's over. It's basically a game they can't win. They have now been like, if we make money in China, it's found money.

Right. That's fine. There's a terrific book by Eric Schwartz called Red Carpet about the way that essentially China trained itself by way of Hollywood

to make Hollywood style films. And now largely they only make their own movies. Right. But this movie is going to open in China. So you're right that that probably

negates a lot of the kind of naysaying that you might expect with an Avatar sequel. I think so. I also think, look, if it made something like

800 million or a billion, a ginormous number that was only going to feel like a disappointment in relation to the original Avatar and the standards that Cameron sets for himself. And basically,

if this movie doesn't become, Way of Water doesn't become the highest grossing film in history, it will be seen as a disappointment. Whatever number it ends up at, because Cameron beat himself

before. Over and over. It's a pretty chill bar. That's how I think of every new episode of this show. Right. He's the best one yet. If he doesn't beat himself

again, it seems like a disappointment. I think Disney would be more cautious about green lighting four and five if Star Wars were working as movies right now. I think there was a point

in time when the Fox acquisition happens where it almost felt like, oh, they'll alternate every other year between a Star Wars movie and an Avatar movie. What do you mean? Rogue Squadron's coming? Untitled Taika Waititi? No, none of this stuff is coming. They don't know what they're doing over there. I think Avatar is in a position where if it does well, even if it's not blockbuster record changing well Disney wants to stay in this franchise they want to keep it going

there's already the investment in the theme parks so for as a fan and I'm a fan of Avatar I really want this movie to be great

and I think it has a strong chance to be great there's a lot there are a lot more talented actors that are theoretically a part of this

there's a fun cast there's a cool cast Edie Falco the revolving story that's incredible I am very dubious about a fun cast. It's a cool cast. Edie Falco. The revolving story. That's incredible. I am very dubious about what made this film,

the original film, so successful, which is the long tail. And I don't mean the tail of like the raptor dragon that he flies. Like, this movie

hung around in theaters for a little while. Well, so, what you're asking for is what Top Gun pulled off, right? The impossible. So hard. So hard to do that.

Where it's like that movie managed to just stay in theaters and chug along and just keep... It's on VOD and it doesn't matter. People are still going to see it in theaters. Can you do that again? Now, obviously, it's got the thing going for it that it is going to have some space.

It will. We'll have the January, February, March kind of like... It's going to clear the runway. Yeah. Right. And I think Disney is very clearly trying to get everything else

out of its way. Right? You got Wakanda Forever coming up before. But then what's their next thing? Like the Marvels or what? No, it's Ant-Man

in like late February maybe. That's what it is. It's Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania which by the way for the record is apparently like a very big movie.

Yes. One of their biggest movies. That's like got a lot of universe stuff. A lot of Jonathan Majors and all that. Yeah. But that's February 17th. So we're talking basically three full months. Yeah, exactly.

Of runway. Yeah. So enjoy that avatar. I'll say this too. Take advantage. I don't think I'll get in trouble for saying this. How exciting. avatar. I'll say this too. Take advantage. I don't think I'll get in trouble for saying this. But another thing I know is, you know, Disney Plus is basically not releasing any major things on their service in December. Right. They have not the Mandalorian. I think Mandalorian is like February, January, February. Am I wrong about this? I feel like Mandalorian is early next year.

Right. But everyone was expecting what's going to be the big Christmas release on Disney Plus. And they're sort of wrapping the shows up and not dropping a new movie past November. Because I've just heard that they're like, we're trying to push everyone to Avatar in theaters. Have you started pitching your screen rant articles about Avatar then? Because there's going to be a big, nice little corridor there for you to get those pieces published. Absolutely. Can I ask you guys a question? Yeah.

What is Avatar the Way of Water about? No idea. I don't know. No one knows. Don't you think that people need to know more about what a movie is about than they used to?

That's an interesting question. Well, that's a fair question. In order to actually go and see it. But no, because I think what Avatar 2 is about is like back to Avatar. Right. Either yes or no

is your answer to that. See, I'm like Sean, I'm dubious about that. Whether that is a motivating enough factor for people to go back to the theater in the same droves that they went the first time

because it was such a thing. Can I read you the thumbnail description of the plot? Yeah, it's hilarious. I just know they have kids. Jake, Sully, and Natiri have formed a family

and are doing everything to stay together. That's very relatable. However, they must leave their home and explore the regions of Pandora when an ancient threat resurfaces.

Hate when that happens. Jake must fight a difficult war against the humans. Yeah, I mean, sounds good. I don't know. So what I'm assuming, obviously the big pitch of this movie is that it's going to have tons and tons of underwater stuff, which one, James Cameron loves in general,

and two, will be a total VFX showcase that the first movie didn't have, right? There's not a lot of water stuff in the first movie. Right right and all the water stuff we've seen in these clips and trailers we saw a little clip they're two different clips that play in the credits did you see the kid rescuing the whale i did yeah and i don't know the other clip but i assume it's similarly devoid of context and no it's them doing their taxes oh great yeah less than three months out there's still counseling a guy with a little visor and an adding machine less than three months out there's still family counseling a guy with a little visor and an adding machine less than three months out

there still is only one trailer for this movie there's one and it's a fairly vague trailer it has like one line of dialogue it's a lot of imagery right it's a lot of imagery

I know they're humans yes like Dilly Brow is back yeah Joel David Moore is back like these guys are back or BC's back why does

BC's back this movie has the same marketing campaign as Tar have you guys noticed that David's doing doing the um yeah it's just a teaser yeah and it's like you like kate blanchett well i'll tell you and i'm good i'm not speaking ill of james cameron or todd field but those are both guys who i bet you look at every pr email that goes out and i I got the, did you get the nervy? Tar is T-A, capitalized with an accent, R.

It's very hard to type on your phone and get it correct. Yes, it is. And I'm fairly persnickety about getting these things correct too, anyhow. I'm not going to be

capitalizing Tar, Todd. Come at me. I will say this to your point, Bobby. It's not capitalized. It's not capitalized. It's a title. Show some respect.

My sister is 24 years old, does not really care about any of the major franchises. Has maybe seen two or three Marvel movies in total. Okay, sure. Like, she likes Guardians of the Galaxy, and that's it. She doesn't watch Star Wars. She doesn't watch Game of Thrones. She's not in any of these big, ongoing pop culture sagas.

She has no interest to The Ringer, essentially. No interest. Just not her taste. She doesn't like sports either. The Ringer is like a... Just not her taste. The Ringer is her favorite Johnny Knoxville movie. Right. She likes like A24 dramas and rom-coms, right?

Oh, okay. Well, then she's of some interest to The Ringer. That's true. I don't mean to speak up. You know, but it's like she saw Force Awakens as a sort of like,

I guess this is a civic obligation. Everybody fucking saw that movie. Enjoyed it. Seeing it as a bit. Going to see Force Awakens as a bit. Yeah, but Force Awakens as a bit. Yeah, but had no interest in seeing a single Star Wars movie after that despite enjoying it.

It's just totally checked out of all of this stuff. And she's in on the way of water is what you're saying. We saw it. She was whatever, nine at the time? Ten? Yeah. And we saw it as a family on Christmas. It was my third time already seeing the movie. And she was like's probably, yeah. And, you know, we saw it as a family on Christmas. It was my third time

already seeing the movie. Oh, yeah. And she was like, oh, good. Never talked about it really ever again. We went to see some movie recently.

I forget what it was. The Avatar trailer comes on. She turns to me and she goes, oh, shit. I mean, hell yeah. And usually when we go see a movie together

and the nerdy trailer comes on, I'm pumping my fish. She's rolling her eyes. I don't care about this shit. Right? Right. And she turned to me and she was like, fuck, I'm excited.

Avatar. And then she went, God, I got to rewatch the first Avatar. And it was truly the thing that everyone's asking. Will anyone care? Does anyone want to go back? The people who haven't thought about Avatar in 13 years but saw it at the time and quote unquote enjoyed it. She's seeing it on a big screen immediately got sold on. No plot. Just vibes, images, music,

the technology. Avatar is nostalgia now is what you're saying. Yes, the first time. This is comforting. This looks cool. I want to do this again. I want to rewatch the first one.

You've inspired something by sharing this, which this is the first time in the history of this podcast that I've been compelled to call my wife during a recording. I'm not going to do that because she would not appreciate that.

But I would like to know if she wants to see this movie because we've definitely not discussed it. Because I have seen the trailer for this movie with my wife, and my wife has been like, whatever. And I have been Griffin being like, and she's like, okay. But that matters because you're saying that your sister's potential enthusiasm is a good sign,

a strong omen for the success of the film. Because look, she saw Force Awakens. She enjoyed it. Even when I endorsed Last Jedi, she was never going to see that movie. I had friends like that too. I was like, you should see Last Jedi. It's good. And they were like, I saw the new Star Wars.

That's okay. And I should call. I wish I could just get the jury back together those 11 other guys and be like what is it that would be a great episode of How To With John Wilson

exactly the other one I think about is like my uncles are like pretty reserved men who do not engage with

pop culture at all they like to sit silently in the same room and read books side by side together. That's nice. They don't own a TV, right? They're like NPR, you know, guys, that's their main form of entertainment. They maybe see one movie a year and it is almost always something playing at the

Angelica, right? And I remember being surprised, whatever, you know, whenever I saw in that holiday season, Christmas or maybe Michael's birthdays in January, whatever, mentioning that they had already seen Avatar. And it was just like, well, of course we have to see Avatar. Avatar is the thing that everyone's talking about. You know, and I wonder. There's that rare brand of movie where it's like, well, if I have to be part of the Zeitgeist anyway, I've got to see it. Avatar is not as good as Lawrence of Arabia, but it is like Lawrence of Arabia. Oh, yeah. Where it is like Lawrence of Arabia where it is like this movie matters

it's very big and you need to see it right Turok wasn't in Lawrence of Arabia 50-50 now I question what if Lawrence of Arabia

had gotten on Turok Turok back to it would have been better yeah I question if there is anything that could convince my uncles to go see

Way of Water I think they'll have that attitude of this pod play it for them. This pod, I'll play it for them. It doesn't air on NPR, unfortunately, but otherwise... I have to sneak it onto NPR. I have to steal their feed.

But they're the example of, we did that the one time. I imagine even if this thing wins Best Picture, gets rapturous reviews, once again breaks the box office... That's the last tier of this conversation. And we should have it. Avatar was nominated for Best Picture and was the ostensible frontrunner for the entire season up against James Cameron's ex-partner, Catherine Bigelow, who at the during the same year made The Hurt Locker, which she won Best Director for and won Best

Picture. And it was a perfect David and Goliath story where at that time Avatar was already the highest grossing movie in history and Hurt Locker when it won was the lowest grossing Best Picture winner effort. Yes.

Which maybe tells us everything we need to know about what happened. It was like the bullies won. Like we thought they were we thought it was going to be okay and there's a whole other

conversation about like how the Academy reacts to these things and what lessons they take away from things as opposed to what quote-unquote Hollywood took away from Avatar that is very interesting. But this is a year in which, you know, it's possible that Wakanda Forever and Top Gun Maverick

and Avatar The Way of Water are nominated for Best Picture. There's 10 slots. It's possible. There has to be 10 now, right? We're still on. It's no longer a fungible. It's 10. I was just talking about this with Griffin

on the way over to recording this episode. I mean, can I just say it for a second? Please, please. Fableman's woman talking, Banshees, then like, give me a couple of, you know, like whatever, Empire of Light or everything, everywhere, Babylon, right? You know what I mean?

She said. Maybe she said, Tar. But even then, it's like you're kind of at seven or eight. And then it's like Top Gun Maverick, that feels like it's happening. That feels like it's getting a Best Picture nomination. I think it is. And then you're kind of like,

we were saying, does Glass Onion, Netflix, sort of without a blockbuster to push, do they go all in on Glass Onion? Is that just a kind of populist favorite? Wakanda Forever, is that as good as glass onion? Is that just a kind of populist favorite? Wakanda Forever, is that like as good as it looks and what else? It is just a unique situation. Is it just another thing of like,

we got to hand it to them. They made a bajillion dollars. You have two cultural phenomenon billion dollar first movies, you know, but beyond billion dollar grossing first movies that were serious

best picture contenders now both getting sequels within a month of each other. Yeah. It's amazing. That is wild. Right. It's a kind of unprecedented thing

and I feel like I keep on hearing more and more from people, especially post, like, festival season. Most of the contenders have been seen. If either of those movies are really good, they could very quickly become a frontrunner again.

So it doesn't feel like there's a clear consensus critical favorite of the films that have been seen. I agree. There's a couple of caveats. I will say, as someone who has spent the better part of four years aimlessly and thoughtlessly whinging into the night about the need for movies that people have seen

to be represented at the Oscars. A thing that clearly drives the Academy crazy that they cannot find the right... This is very exciting. ...share moment. It's very plausible that Wakanda Forever and Avatar 2 are not, quote-unquote,

don't give us that feeling or give the Academy that feeling. And as sequels, they've got that to conquer. The Star Wars sequels never got nominated for Best Picture. A lot of times, same with Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Then nominate the first movie in the franchise. It's a good point. Rocky II doesn't get nominated. There was a report last week that I thought was very interesting, which was that Apple is seriously considering releasing Ridley Scott's Napoleon starring Joaquin Phoenix on Christmas Day because they're looking at the landscape and they're like, it's soft out here.

I have heard that rumor that it is done because Ridley Scott makes movies in a couple of days. Cut it over a weekend. And that it is good. You know, who knows? Right, this is all. But it is funny to think about.

That's like, whatever, you know, some big, you know, Rick Perry's like, well, maybe I will run for president.

Where it's like, a terrible analogy, obviously. It is sort of similar. Someone who, like some vet Paul who like swings into a race like thinking like, there's no one,

I can clear the field, whatever. Who was the Democrat general who ran? Wesley Clark. Wesley Clark. It's a little bit of that energy. Remember the ad

where he talked about that? Maybe I could sneak one out. Yeah, that was bad. So, it's a really interesting Oscar season and I think that the Oscars historically has helped, obviously, smaller films gain bigger audiences,

but has also helped empower bigger movies to stay bigger and bigger and bigger over a long stretch of time. Whether or not that's still possible, whether or not that corridor that we're talking about is going to stay open for not just three months until February 17th, but for four months until March 24th

or whatever godforsaken day the Oscars is. Why is it delayed again because it's very late or some shit no it's Super Bowl it's the Super Bowl and there's something

you're right though it's gonna be it's gonna be a long season miserable I just feel like do you guys know what won best picture last year

CODA CODA won best picture Apple CODA CODA won best picture I mean that's you know I like that movie.

So much. My review of Coda is that I love my daughter. I love my daughter, too. So, you know, it happens. I mean, just you love your daughter. My review of Coda is I'm single and childless. That movie meant nothing to me. But like, you know, like, is there a world where the Oscar voters are like, did we give

it to Coda last year? Honey, pull up the top 10 for me. Were there some hits this year? What did I like? There was so much hand-wringing last year of like, for the love of God, won't the Academy get their shit together and nominate Spider-Man? We need to recognize this film. And truly, I just think that movie doesn't have the juice

to be considered in that sort of conversation. It doesn't have that sort of transcendent thing of this genre populist film is so sweeping. It is so completely captured the collective, you know, sort of imagination. It is a movie that is payoffs to 20 different movies made across two decades. I think if Endgame had been released last year, it would have been nominated in a way just because in that two-year period, so much had changed in the industry that it would have felt like the conclusion, the cap, or everything you were saying before. Absolutely.

We're on a wild tangent. We are. Let me ask a simple question. Yeah. Are you excited for The Way of Water? I'm beyond excited. I mean, I said to David the other day, the three trailers I keep on watching on loop are Avatar Way of Water, Wakanda Forever, and Dead Reckoning.

Oh, all three wonderful trailers. Right, Which are just beautiful trailers that tell me almost nothing but set a really good tone, have incredible imagery, are kind of the best directors

working in sort of action filmmaking today. Dead Reckoning, that's like an ancient poem, that trailer. It's just like a perfect series of flashes where you're

just like, yes, depth, truth, spirit. Yes. Every time, I'm like, I want to feel all of these feelings it's so powerful I get so sweeped

I truly get like emotionally choked up watching these trailers believing in the power of movies and wanting to see that kind of like grand slam

blockbuster David are you excited? for Way of Water so excited and I wasn't my joke has always been I said it on our episode that we recorded

a million years ago if James Cameron thinks I need four Avatar sequels then I need four Avatar sequels I was always kind of just like he's always right I'm not going to bet against the guy but I will say until I saw the trailer I think I, like many others

had just kind of put Avatar in a nice dusty shoebox and I would think about how it was there and I'd be like oh Avatar, Avatar, there it is. And I had a good time with you. But when we, remember when we saw the trailer? They showed it to us at a press screening. I showed up to theaters.

The trailer. We're just going to screen the trailer. Then they did show us. Doctor Strange. But in a different theater. It wasn't playing before Doctor Strange. But they were like, come into the fancy Dolby, wear your fancy glasses and watch this trailer.

And like, after like 20 seconds of that, I was like, oh my God, I didn't realize how excited I was. Yes. Yes. No. So I'm pumped. And I do think. But I'm slightly. I do think that.

Look, I have. He said writer's room. I hate that. I hate that too. You know what I mean? Cameron being like, we hired. I know that that's just what you do. Yeah, but that's like every showrunner.

I know. And now he's going to rewrite anything that they write anyway. I know. Just like Matthew Weiner, right? I Yeah, but that's like every showrunner. I know. And now he's going to rewrite anything that they write anyway. I know. Just like Matthew Weiner, right? I mean, this is what it's going to be. But also, the thing I find encouraging about it is he's basically described it as like these are kind of four parallel stories. It's not a serialized thing.

It's not an interconnected universe. It's kind of four different tales. But can I say- I love fucking director bullshit so much. I do too. It's so special. And I love it. And of course,

my favorite thing, of course, is he's like, Sigourney's coming back. Okay, who's she playing? Is she, you know, reincarnated? Are they, you know, what's gonna,

and it's like, no, she's gonna play their daughter. And I'm like, wow, no one is allowed to say no to you anymore. That's the choice? Okay. Steven Lang back from the dead.

But he's gonna play like a mutant hybrid or something? He looks like a Naveed. There's a Naveed in the trailer with his scars and tattoos. That's fantastic. And like, so all that stuff I love. I'll say this, and I have a daughter. Here she is.

Humblebrag. God bless her. She's the cutest. I love my daughter. Don't always love kids in movies. Yeah. Little worried if it's going to be a lot of Naveed kids running around being like, hey, you know, don't touch that.

Or, you know, like, oh, dad said we couldn't climb the sacred, you know, octopus. And it's like, oh, Jesus. But this is part of the Cameron thing is you gotta go like, look, I'm rooting for the guy. He's pretty good with kids. But everything you're describing to me sounds like the opposite of what I want. And he just sort of crosses his arms and goes, just wait. That

wasn't true for Terminator 2. Before Terminator 2, it was like, you want more Terminator? And I was like, I do, actually. I'd love a little bit more Terminator. That was one where it was. That works. But even like, oh, now it's about the kid. No, but the teaser was just,

this time there are two. And you were like, two Terminators, eh? Pretty good. Pretty smart. Same thing you did with Aliens. This title was a pun. Yeah, well done.

There are more of them. Yeah, of course, the famous dollar sign. You know, yeah, that. But, and even Titanic, as much as that was like a financial folly that paid off at least then he was like you heard of the titanic yes guess who's heard of the titanic everyone ever you're saying no one has ever heard of the way of water yeah i mean that's

not a phrase you've used out in the world at the bagel shop no not quite i mean maybe it'll catch on uh but no but even avatar like the pitch for Avatar is Looney Tunes, like compared to like him being like, I know it's going to cost a fortune for me to build a boat and sink it, but it's the Titanic. He needed to have this extraordinary amount of success over these decades

to conceive and execute of something so crazy as Avatar. We'll see. I'm very excited. Listen, this has been like an extremely convivial and fun conversation, in part because I think you guys are both great,

but also because we're in person here. Yes. And that's lovely. But also I have to go see the film White Noise. So... Okay.

Yeah, you gotta go. We have to wrap up our conversation. How long have we gone? This is like a long big picture. We've gone a while. Bobby's looks tired.

I have a final point I'd like to make. This is a short blank check but a long blank check. Right, yeah. We're trying to split the difference here. To Bobby's looks tired. I have a final point. I'd like to make. This is a short blank check. Right. Yeah. We're trying to split the difference here. Yeah.

To Bobby's point, is it, is it foolhardy that they're not selling the story of this movie that no one knows what it is. And so far the advertising has just been, are you ready to go back to Pandora? Yeah. I think that's almost a strength going into way of water that the buy-in on all of these franchise movies are so high because it's like, are you up

to date? Have you caught up on all the things? Have you read the lore? What are we rebooting? Did you catch the latest Disney plus show or whatever? Right. It's a strength to something like Top Gun where it's like, you've missed this guy, right? We haven't been like ramming Maverick down your throat for three decades. And now we're going to give you a movie that's half a sequel and half kind of a remake of the first movie and everything you liked the first time. And it's just going to make you pump your fists in the same way. You saying that the lack of sort of cultural stickiness for Avatar is because it was so much an experience. People don't rewatch it the same way because it was about being there at that moment when it came out, you know, with a packed

house in 3D and all of that. think that is the sales pitch it is not haven't you missed Avatar the saga of Jake Sully it's haven't you missed the feeling you had when you saw Avatar in theaters 13 years ago don't you want to do that again you don't need to fucking watch four Disney plus shows to prep for this what a relief what a relief and what an elegant thing to say at the end of an episode just you don't even have to rewatch Avatar just sit your ass down and watch this new movie

I think it's I kind of imagine it will be a little bit like Top Gun Maverick in that way where it's like the entry point for this movie

is this movie just sit here and watch this and be transported David do you have a closing thought no how am I gonna top that that was great

thank you Jake Sully cute human Jake Sully Avatar Jake Sully little. Human Jake Sully. Avatar Jake Sully. A little weird looking. We're always evolving our tastes. That's one thing

I want to say. Griffin Newman, David Sims, Blank Check, the podcast, you should listen to it. Where do you listen to it? Anywhere.

Podcast or fan. Anywhere you get your podcasts. You know, Blank Check, that's us. What's after Kubrick? Are you not allowed to reveal that

no but the fans have put it together you can just say it yeah we're doing Henry Selick after oh yes that's gonna be a little brief fella

cause it's only he's finally made a movie sure a filmmaker who has a similar gap it's the same gap right

not exactly for the same reason different reason well but a similar two demanding two demanding filmmakers. But yeah, once again,

making his first movie since 2009. He's got a movie called Wendell and Wild coming out. So we're doing his movies and then we have another, we have two favorites

locked in after that. Yeah. For the beginning of next year. We both got to pick a long hoped for favorite. We each picked one of our guys.

Yeah. That we're going to do in 2023. Yeah. I'll also say, you know, obviously. We also have some fun

Kubrick guests coming up at the end of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good episodes. Kub, you know, obviously, we also have some fun Kubrick guests coming up at the end of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good episodes. Kubrick's been fun. The Shining, you heard of these movies? Quality films.

You know, Christmas, everyone should be going out to the theaters to see Avatar. If you're stuck at home with your family at Thanksgiving, there is a little Disney Plus movie

called Disenchanted in which I voice a wisecracking New York chipmunk that I think is quite fun. What's the chipmunk's name? Pip. Pip.

Pip the chipmunk. You have a bit of a Pip energy, I would say. He's a Pip, right? I try. He's a real Pip. It feels like the best fit. Clyde is great. I've not gotten to turn him down, but he's a Pip.

I also write movie reviews of The Atlantic. You can read those. But they're cribbed from Griffin's thoughts. Mostly. A lot of them. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you both for being here. I'm going to thread him thoughts. Mostly. A lot of them. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you both for being here. Yes, yes. Thank you. I appreciate it. And thanks to Bobby Wagner who's sitting beside me, our producer. Does incredible work on this show.

Pleasure is all mine. Absolutely. Later this week on the pod, actually, an old friend is returning. Sam Esmail has come back to the podcast. Wow.

So please tune in for that. We should have some fun there. Just to pontificate? I think what we're going to do is that we're going to force him to teach us how you direct a movie. Step by step, right? Much like watching Avatar, you just have to turn yourself over to Sam when he comes on. That's very true. I'm sure he has his own ideas and he'll run the show. See you soon. Thank you.