The Big Picture - 'The Irishman' Is NOT Too Long. Plus: Predicting the Golden Globe Nominations. | The Oscars Show

Episode Date: December 3, 2019

We're less than a week away from the official start of awards season: Golden Globe nominations. Amanda and Sean share their best guesses in the major categories and defend the honor of Martin Scorsese's 'The Irishman' (4:00). Then, resident 'Frozen' fan Jason Gallagher joins to break down why the sequel has become the fall season's juggernaut at the box office (41:10). Finally, Sean is joined by director Todd Haynes to talk about his new film, 'Dark Waters,' a chilling legal thriller that isn't always what it seems (66:10). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Todd Haynes, Jason Gallagher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Irishman, which is just the right length, Amanda. Later in the show, I'll have an interview with Todd Haynes, the director of such classics of anxiety and melodrama as Safe, Far From Heaven, and Carol. His new film is called Dark Waters, and it applies his precise expression of dread to the world of legal thrillers. But Amanda, first, we must discuss the Golden Globes. Nominations will be announced less than a week from today on the morning of December 9th. The show, which is hosted by Ricky Gervais again, airs on January 5th.

We'll be there for you right after the nominations are announced on Monday, and of course, right after the awards ceremony. But let's start by getting into some predictions. So I'm not sure how much of a feel you have for the Golden Globes, but what's happened now is we've pretty much seen everything. We've seen The Irishman. The world has seen The Irishman on Netflix. We've seen, some of us have seen 1917. You and I have. We've seen Richard Jewell. You have. I have. I saw it over the weekend. We've seen Queen and Slim. We've seen Netflix's Atlantics. The only movie that people haven't really seen is Cats, which probably does factor into our Golden Globes conversation.

It does. I'm not sure if it's going to factor into any conversation after that. But we're going to have to think about it. Any awards conversation. I think there might be a conversation about America's national psyche. I think that's exactly right. I don't really know how to handicap for cats. I think that that is the, that's the, I don't know, elephant sized cat in the room.

But I thought they were the opposite of elephant size. I thought they were the tiny, the room is for elephants and the cats are miniature cats. Well put. I don't know. I haven't seen any of this. I didn't even watch the second trailer. I was so upset. I saw the trailer in a movie theater last night. And let me tell you, it's just disturbing. It's just disturbing content. It's just not something that I want to see on a screen really at any time. And nevertheless, we're going to see it at some point. And the Hollywood Foreign Press Association is going to see it because they need to, I guess, vote on their award show.

The Golden Globes is absurd. Yes. I was just going to say we should have a conversation about how we're going to talk about the Golden Globes on this podcast, which is not with a lot of respect. The Hollywood Foreign Press Association is historically not a hugely discerning body of voters. The general rep on them is that they just like to be around celebrities and parties and free gifts, which in a way, don't we all? Yeah, I think I understand their emotional state of being in the year 2019. I don't really understand why they are the second most powerful awards organization in movie history,

but they are. And I like that show. I like to watch the Golden Globes, even though it confounds me. Now, I was thinking about last year's Golden Globes. Do you remember what won Best Drama and Best Musical Comedy? Yes, because I looked it up. Okay. So why don't you tell us? Best Comedy was the Academy Award winning Green Book, which is a ridiculous sentence. And best drama, even more ridiculous, was Bohemian Rhapsody. Yes. And at the time, I remember thinking like, huh, HFPA going weird on us once more.

Yeah. They can't get out of their own way. Lo and behold, they foretold the future. Yes. Bohemian Rhapsody won multiple awards. Green Book won multiple awards. Those were really the dominant films of the 2019 Academy Awards. And so it's not insane to think that the things that happen at the Golden Globes could be

predictive of the Oscars. I don't think it's necessarily causality going on here, but they could be related. That's a good point. I think historically we've been like, well, how someone performs at the Golden Globes affects how people have voted the Academy Awards. And a great speech can really propel someone to victory, especially in the actor categories. And people become more aware of a film because it wins the Golden Globe. I'm not sure that's totally the case, but I think the Golden Globes do reflect what movies the voting bodies are seeing and interested in. It's a sample size. And it's not always the responsible sample size that you want, but it's maybe the honest sample size.

It's true. I feel like we're all awards virgins so far this year. We have not lost our innocence. And so we're still in this universe where we're like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood Parasite The Irishman these incredible features that come from the minds of brilliant people and we're like these are definitely the front runners

and things are going to keep moving the way that they're going and then we're going to find out that like I don't know Just Mercy is in the lead or Bombshell

or something that's like good Cats and Richard Jewell Cats, Jojo Rabbit you know things that maybe you don't want relative to the things that you do want. And so it makes it really like because of the ridiculous nature of this show, it makes it difficult to do predictions. Yes. We're going to do our best.

Yes. Why don't you make the first choice on best motion picture drama for us? Okay. I'm going to go with The Two Popes. Okay. Which just seems like a down-the-middle Golden Globes favorite. It has two big-name actors, Jonathan Pryce and Anthony Hopkins. Has an international feel.

Is a comedy. There are one or two good jokes for old people in it. And it just also does seem kind of like the Golden Globes don't break with convention a ton. So Two Popes has been in the awards handicapping, I think, since Telluride. It has. So it opened this weekend in theaters to, I would say, a hushed acclaim. It'll be interesting to see if both Marriage Story on Friday and The Two Popes on December 20th have the same effect that The Irishman did over the long holiday weekend, which was a lot of active conversation about the film. I'm going to go with Joker. Yeah. That just feels inevitable. I think there is a star power box office thing going on there as well. Probably the single biggest mega

surprise of the year at the box office. You know, Joaquin in the lead currently for Best Actor probably. Yeah. Just feels right. Yeah. Can I say something rude? If you'd like. Okay.

Well, I just, Joker is, I think, kind of coming together for me as the movie for... Incels. No. Maybe this is even meaner for dumb people who think they're smart. Or, which is, that's rude. And if you like Joker,

I'm not calling you dumb. But there is kind of like a fake intelligence, which is, Golden Globes has a rich history of embracing that. Yeah, I think there's like a self-seriousness, too,

to the story that I think that they typically respond to. What else? Let's try to manageably get to five here. Little Women probably has to be a lock. Big names, all-star cast, feel good. The Golden Globes really like Greta Gerwig.

Lady Bird won in comedy two years ago, which I'd forgotten. You know, a broken clock is right twice a day or once every 10 years at the Golden Globes. But I do think between Greta and then you've got Saoirse Ronan, Florence Pugh, Timothy Chalamet, Laura Dern, Meryl Streep. It's hard for them to say no. I agree.

I think it will be hard for them to say no to the Irishman. I don't know how much the... I think that glad-handing is a big part of this. And how much are people going to play the game? So like my instinct there was to go Ford versus Ferrari. It's been a big hit at the box office. It's been playing to a little bit of an older crowd. A lot of the HFPA members are not spring chickens,

but Christian Bale doesn't do anything. And Matt Damon is spare with his time. And so if those guys aren't working the circuit and kissing the babies, I'm not sure if it's going to get out there. The Irishman, on the other hand, has been ever present. Now, I don't know if Martin Scorsese is going hat in hand to the HFPA, but there is something overwhelming about these people coming together to make a movie, probably for the last time, that I feel like it will be difficult for them to defy. I think you're right, but I could see them skipping it, which is nothing to do with The Irishman,

which is a movie that I loved and really responded to. Please, you know, we'll keep talking about it. But they're pretty lazy. I don't mean to be rude. How many HFPA voters do you think watched three and a half hours of The Irishman at home on their own time? Do you think they're saving the last act, you know, for Christmas Day? They'll never get there.

Just to ignore their family members? No, I just I think that there is something that is you got to want it with the Irishman. You really do have to be swept away by it and also to really take in its pretty dark and depressing message. You have to sit down and commit and be like, I love cinema. And these guys love parties. So I just, you know, it is Ron Scorsese.

It is Robert De Niro. It is Al Pacino. It is Joe Pesci. There is that star power. There is also kind of the assumptive, this is like a great part of film histories. I can see a lot of people voting for it without perhaps having finished it.

But I do, I would be shocked but not surprised if somehow it doesn't sneak in. So what's the fifth here? This is insane because there are, here are all the films we have not named, which I would say are in contention. Ford versus Ferrari, Marriage Story, A Bombshell, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, 1917, Richard Jewell, Just Mercy, and Motherless Brooklyn. Now, some of them are easy cross-offs, right? Motherless Brooklyn,

that's not going to happen. I'm coming around on Motherless Brooklyn, by the way, thinking more and more about it, just putting that out in the universe. Just Mercy, nice movie. I'm coming around on Mother Was Broken, by the way. Thinking more and more about it. Just putting that out in the universe. Just Mercy. Nice movie. I don't see that happening. Richard Jewell. There might be a Jewell wave. I mean, we always say this. The Mule made $100 million last year. I feel like this movie is going to make

a lot of money. I'm sure that it will. It's like an immense crowd pleaser in a very weird way. Yeah. The 1917 thing that happened last weekend was very powerful. It's kind of hard toaser in a very weird way. Yeah. The 1917 thing that happened last weekend was very powerful. It's kind of hard to look past a movie like that. Bombshell hasn't even really struck yet. Yeah. But they've been on the circuit.

Yes. And that is Charlize, Nicole Kidman, and Margot Robbie. Could Marriage Story really get left out? I feel like it's going to be Two Popes or Marriage Story, and they're going to have to pick. Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm kind of like, what if they pick Two Popes and Marriage Story and leave out the Irishman? I mean, they won't leave out the Irishman. I know that they won't. But it's also hard for me to imagine them doing both Irishman and 1917.

And it's hard for me to imagine them looking past 1917 because it has, you know, it's like a war epic that's beautifully made, again, and has an international appeal. Let's think about it this way. They want stars in the seats, right? Yeah. Who's more important, Charlize or Scarlett Johansson? All right. Well, you're going to say Scar Jo because of Marvel, but I don't think that they're thinking that. I feel like it's bombshell.

Intelligently. I kind of do as well. It's insane that we're leaving out Marriage Story, but we are going to leave out Marriage Story. And A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. It's not us. By the way. It's insane that we're leaving out Marriage Story, but we are going to leave out Marriage Story. And A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. It's not us, by the way. It's not us. I guess these people can be nominated in acting categories too, but I feel like getting the whole cast of Bombshell is going to be pretty meaningful.

I think that that's been really powerful since the beginning. I mean, I think that's what's going to propel it to a Best Picture nomination. So if Best Motion Picture Drama is a bloodbath, Best Motion Picture Musical or Comedy is a bit absurd. There are some good sides to this absurdity. There are some fun movies that are going to get some love on television that maybe wouldn't at the Academy Awards. There are a lot of movies here that are, I don't know, not worthy, but just feel like a little easier to cut. So I'll start on this one. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, I think it's just the lockiest of locks. I agree. What comes next for you? Well, let's talk about Jojo Rabbit. Okay. How are you feeling about Jojo Rabbit right now? Not you

personally, but in terms of the awards. We don't have to redo the personal. I'm feeling like it's not strong, but I'm feeling like a lot of people love Taika Waititi. I've been at two DGA screenings in the last month. And at both of those screenings, I heard someone behind me talk about how much they like Taika Waititi. Now, I don't know what that really means. I don't know how resonant that's going to be long term. The movie has not been a big box office hit. It's done pretty well. But I think there was some expectation of like Green Book energy coming through with this movie.

And it has not gotten to that place yet. I think it's a go here. I think it's going to happen here. Okay. This is an international movie and it's the Hollywood Foreign Press. It's true. And it won at Toronto,

which is technically an international voting body. Yeah, I feel very comfortable with it appearing here. And I think it's probably going to be nominated for Best Picture, but I don't think it's going to be that like, throw our hands up in the air, God damn it, Jojo Rabbit won six Oscars. I mean, that means that it's going to to be nominated for best picture but i don't think it's going to be that like throw our hands up in the air god damn it jojo rabbit won six oscars i mean that means that it's going to but okay exciting okay so we'll go jojo rabbit yeah next pick um i'm gonna go a little counterintuitive here and go rocket man oh i was all that was gonna be my next okay i feel

like obviously taryn egerton has been working his ass off for nine months on the campaign and is not done yet and wants to sing and wants to appear in photos with Elton John. Who doesn't? Sure, he's great. I love Elton John. The HFPA also would like to appear in photos with Elton John. So I'm going Rocketman. I agree with that. I mean, it's musical or comedy because they want to honor a musical every once in a while and Rocketman's in there. That's fun. Who doesn they want to honor a musical every once in a while. Exactly. And Rocketman's in there. That's fun.

Who doesn't want to hear Elton John songs? What's next? It's getting tougher. Hmm. This is tricky. Head or heart? Well, I don't. My head and my heart are both just kind of like perplexed.

I mean, Knives Out was a massive success. Everyone loves it except for one person who felt like they were disappointing us by not liking it. And I, in our Twitter mentions, and I appreciated that. And you did kind of disappoint me a little. But you're allowed to have your own feelings. But just so you know, I didn't like your tweet because I don't like that you didn't like it. Anyway, I like it so much and so does everyone else. And it just feels like the Hollywood foreign press will be like, what is this? It's full

of famous people that international cast that is true I would like it it just also you know I think Rian Johnson has really been out glad handing as has Chris Evans to an extent I'm not sure with these people exactly that's kind of my thing Rian is a smart guy with taste. He's like, I don't want to do this bullshitty stuff. I want to do the real stuff. Yeah. And I'm just not sure that they're going to. I could be wrong. That's why I said it's, you know.

The Bond movie's coming. So this is a nice little vehicle to get Daniel Craig on TV a lot. You never know. But I kind of don't think that. Okay. So what goes in there? Yeah. I mean, I guess maybe book smart kind of don't think that okay so what goes in there yeah i mean i guess maybe

book smart i don't i don't think so i don't see it i mean to me i feel like the last two are hustlers and cats that'd be that'd be my guess yeah i just kind of they want olivia wilde they want they may not want her after richard jewell that's it we'll get to that conversation yeah okay but they don't care about that they care about someone being famous and someone who's They may not want her after Richard Jewell. We'll get to that conversation. Yeah, okay. But they don't care about that. They care about someone being famous and someone who's working at, you know, shaking hands. And she has more than anybody. They always throw in like one comedy for younger women or targeted towards people that has not really been taken seriously. I could see it happening. It's just kind of, it is really hard for me to believe

in any world with the footage I've seen that people are going to respond well to cats, even the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. That shit looks horrifying. I think it will definitely be there. It's Tom Hooper and a lot of famous people and something that is really cheesy. And that kind of works on the Hollywood Foreign Press. It just kind of works. I'll say Cats for the final pick. Okay. Which leaves Hustlers on the outside looking in, which we'll see.

I think J-Lo's been working hard. She was out and about over the Thanksgiving weekend once more. Yeah. Which, shout out to her. I think Jennifer Lopez will be at the Golden Globes. I just kind of, Hustlers is too smart for the, I don't know. We shall see. Yeah.

Best director. I think there's what we want and what we'll get. Okay. We all want Bong Joon-ho, right? Wouldn't that be wonderful to get Bong Joon-ho? I don't see that happening here. Really? I don't.

Why not? I could be wrong, but I don't. Because the way that Parasite can't compete in a lot of the categories. That's true, though. I think, didn't Cuaron win last year for Roma? He did. Even though Roma couldn't compete in the major categories. I understand that Cuaron is kind of, was more established in the American market at this point, even though this is an international awards, you know, whatever.

It seems possible, and he has been campaigning but i you're right he's too much of a like a film nerd and sd for for the hollywood foreign press marty yeah quentin okay greta yeah clint eastwood i don't you have seen this it doesn't matter what it is that's true it's just clint eastwood and either sam mendes or Taika is my gut, which again is leaving marriage story on the cutting room floor in a way that I don't feel good about, but I have a weird feeling about. I think that's probably right. I was surprised that you didn't put Todd Phillips in there. I probably should have. I mean, let's cut Clint and put Todd Phillips in there. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm guessing. Between Sam Mendes, Noah Baumbach, and Taika Waititi, who's going in? I think your Taika instinct is good in this category.

Okay. We're going to find out. This is a, man. This could be wrong, though. I mean, cutting Mendes seems so stupid. I agree. This is challenging. I take no responsibility for what we've done in this category.

It could be Mendes. Best actress in a motion picture drama. This is challenging. I take no responsibility for what we've done in this category. It could be my knees. Best actress in a motion picture drama. Oh, boy. Isn't it so strange how they decide to split these up between drama and musical comedy, but then not in supporting? Yes. Supporting is for all the films, but lead actor in drama and musical comedy? Anyway. Charlize is a no-brainer, yes? Yes.

Saoirse Ronan? I think so. Has to be, right? I would think so. Renee Zellweger? Yeah, Renee. We know those are all going. Everything else here is kind of up in the air.

I would assume Scarlett Johansson will get in on star power, though we're revealing a lack of support for Marriage Story that we have completely invented here on this podcast. Right. But I'm going to go yes. So this elusive fifth spot, which is also, I think, quite elusive in the Oscar race. This is mirroring what most of the prognosticators are saying about the Oscars.

Here's some contenders. Elizabeth Moss for her smell, I think, is a huge, huge outsider. Felicity Jones for the aeronauts, which is not likely, but is the kind of person who has been acknowledged by the HFPA quite frequently. And she does work it. She works the room. Very charming. I met her at Telluride.

She was lovely. Cynthia Erivo. Harriet. Surprise head of the year. Helen Mirren, The Good Liar. I saw The Good Liar listed up and down on all the odds sites for the Golden Globes, which I... The Good Liar's not good. I don't know.

It speaks to elder issues, I guess. I don't know. It speaks to elder issues, I guess. I don't know. Alfre Woodard for Clemency, which is a movie a lot of people have still not yet seen, but premiered at Sundance. And Lupita and Yungo for Us. I think it's probably Lupita, though there's a lane here for Alfre Woodard. Last year, I believe it was Nicole Kidman was nominated for Destroyer at the Golden Globes, which is a movie that a lot of people had not seen and came out basically at Christmas at the same time.

So there is like and was just like a well-respected performance, which is again, I have not yet seen Clemency, but seems to be what's going on here. So I could see it going either way. It's a good call. We'll go with Lupita and back pocket Alfred Ward because I think that you're right, that that could happen. Best actor in a motion picture drama. Oh my goodness. This is war. Okay. So Adam Driver will be nominated in this. I agree. Okay. I mean, Joaquin Phoenix will absolutely be nominated. Yeah. I think that there is a case for this one for Pattinson. I agree with you.

Who has just, who has really been out there. I agree with you. And is being so charming. Just crushed it on fresh air. Yeah. Shout out to Robert Pattinson talking to Terry Gross about all he cared about when he was a teenager was listening to Biggie Smalls. That was the, that is my highlight of 2019. That was the best thing I've ever heard.

Robert Pattinson is fantastic. He has great taste and I look forward to the Batman. That's my take. The best part of 2019 for me was watching Robert Pattinson listen to Jennifer Lopez explain the significance of Jennifer Lopez performing at the Super Bowl to non-American Robert Pattinson as the best acting of the entire year. I hope we see him at the Golden Globes. Two more slots with 10 more contenders. Okay. Antonio Banderas. Yeah, I agree. And...

All right, so let's... Who do we have left here? We have Michael B. Jordan for Just Mercy. Brad Pitt for Ad Astra. I don't think that's going to happen because he'll be in the other category. I agree. Jonathan Price for The Two Popes.

Christian Bale for Ferrari. August Diehl, A Hidden Life. Ian McKellen, The Good Liar. Robert De Niro, The Irishman. Well. This strikes me as six guys who do not care about the Golden Globes and then two people who will bend over backwards for it. Right. De Niro does not care.

De Niro does not care, but also he's De Niro. But he's De Niro. And he's been doing a lot for De Niro. He's been getting on TV and saying, fuck him, about Donald Trump. And he's been doing a lot for De Niro. He's been getting on TV and saying fuck him about Donald Trump. And that's it. That's literally all he says in any situation, which frankly, it's a good strategy. It's amazing how there's an echo of that in the movie The Irishman. There's a scene where someone's like, fuck him.

Fuck him. Fuck him. It's perfect. You know, if we think they're going to nominate the Irishman, then I think we have to think they're going to nominate De Niro. Yeah, I guess so. And for internal logic purposes. I think you're right. I think you're right. We'll go with De Niro. So we got Banderas, Phoenix, Driver, Pattinson, and De Niro. Best actress in a motion picture, musical, or comedy? Okay. A very odd category. It really is. So

Awkwafina, yes, for The Farewell. I'm staring at the rest of these. I'll just read them. So Beanie Feldstein for Booksmart. I kind of think... If the film is nominated as you suggested, then she'll be there. Yeah. And also Caitlin Deaver for Booksmart. I would guess that Beanie would be the pick because it is the showier performance.

Emma Thompson for Late Night. I don't... Constance Wu for Hustlers. Ana de Armas for Knives Out. Cate Blanchett for Where'd You Go Bernadette. This is just like a crazy list. Even though Cate Blanchett and Where'd You Go Bernadette was fantastic.

Jillian Bell, Britney Runs a Marathon. Charlize Theron, Longshot. Francesca Hayward, Cats. I don't even know what francesca hayward looks like without cat makeup on this is so upsetting it's just a fact we have one lock okay well so you say beanie i think probably right it'd be it'd be it'd be fun to see anna de armas get nominated here would anna de armas, for those of you who are not familiar with her or haven't seen Knives Out,

she's essentially the central figure in Knives Out. And she's also the next Bond girl. And she's also going to be playing Marilyn Monroe

in a film called Blonde coming out next year. This is a person who's going to be very famous. She's going to be in a lot of stuff in your life going forward. I think that they, HFPA likes to

coronate a young star. So I could see this happening. But it's hard if they aren't even going to acknowledge Knives Out. Which it could. I mean, if Knives Out goes on to make like $125 million, which it could. Yeah. Given what's coming out in the next six weeks.

Who knows? Okay. I'm throwing my weight behind it. Okay. I guess Constance Wu. Yeah. I guess. We weight behind it. Okay. I guess Constance Wu? Yeah, I guess. We got one more. Maybe the young star they want to coordinate is Francesca Hayward, whoever that is.

Okay. I don't... Maybe. But you can't have two of those. You can only have one. I mean, are we doing Emma Thompson? I think so. Okay.

I mean, as everyone knows, I love Emma Thompson, one of the most important people in the world to me. And I actually thought she was very good in this movie that no one has seen or talked about since. I agree. It's a good performance. It's a movie that is sort of forgotten to time. But three more categories here. This is really weird. Okay, keep going.

Best actor in a motion picture, musical, or comedy. All right. Leonardo DiCaprio, yes. Yes. Now what? Taron Egerton, Rocketman? Yes. Okay.

Well, he's campaigning. I think Eddie Murphy. I agree. Eddie Murphy, who will be hosting SNL and appearing quite frequently during this period. Okay. Here's what we've got left. Adam Sandler, Uncut Gems. Would love it to happen. He is very Okay. Here's what we've got left. Adam Sandler, Uncut Gems. Would love it to happen.

He is very famous. He's very famous. And he sat for his first profile feature in the New York Times Magazine in gotta be 25 years. Very charming piece. Wonderful. I think that he speaks like 50 words in it. But that doesn't matter. You get the essence of Adam Sandler in the piece.

I thought it did a nice job of locating his appeal and his historical narrative. Right. It was still about him, even if he didn't, you know. Say a lot of interesting words. Right. Agree with you. Daniel Craig Knives Out. Himesh Patel, Yesterday, which I think when we did this podcast, you suggested this was the sort of thing that could happen. Shia LaBeouf for the Peanut Butter Falcon, probably the most under the radar movie of the year, thing that could happen. Shia LaBeouf for the Peanut Butter Falcon, probably the most under-the-radar movie of the year, but it could happen.

Henry Golding, Last Christmas, absolutely not. I don't even know why I put this on the list. Roman Griffin Davis from Jojo Rabbit. Is that the little guy? The little guy. I could... He was very good. He's very good.

He's very good. Who doesn't love a kid nomination, you know? Sandler and Jojo Rabbit? I could see Himesh Patel. I forgot that I said that, but that was very smart by me. I haven't seen them doing much. That's true. I'll tell you what, though.

Traveling this year. Yesterday is the airplane movie of the season. It's very, very powerful airplane vibes, according to the screens all around me. Which actually makes sense, you know? And the Hollywood Foreign Press, I think, is international, so they must travel a lot. Certainly. They've been on planes.

To all of you who have been on planes and have a vote, we'll go Himesh Patel. Why not? What have we got to lose? Nothing but our dignity and our souls here predicting award shows on a podcast. Best supporting actress in a motion picture. Okay. Jennifer Lopez. Hustlers.

Yes. A number one. I'm sorry, but Sean put together this outline. Here are the first three options in this category. Laura Dern for Marriage Story. Jennifer Lopez for Hustlers. Taylor Swift for Cats. I just, it's early, man, for this.

It's not what you want. It's not. I saw her in the trailer last night and I winced. I twitched. I think Laura Dern's a go. Big profile of her in New York Magazine today. I think Margot Robbie's a go. I agree.

For Bombshell, not for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, right? Yes. So Zhao Shushan, Florence Pugh, Scarlett Johansson, Nicole Kidman. There's a lot of famous people here. We got two spots left. I'd like it to be Florence Pugh.

I'd like there to be some recognition of the year that she's had. I would as well, and I think she's fantastic in that movie. Let's do that. Let's do that and Xiao Xu Zhen. And Xiao Xu Zhen. Okay.

This is probably a little bit too optimistic, but we'll go Laura Dern, Jennifer Lopez, Florence Pugh, Xiao Xu Zhen, and Margot Robbie. Best supporting actor in a motion picture. Okay. Brad Pitt, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Locke. Al Pacino, The Irishman. Now, are you certain? My man just yells.

It's so funny. And he is doing every single press thing that he can do. And everyone loves Al Pacino. Yeah, people want to be in a room with Al Pacino. I would like to be in a room with Al Pacino. I think it sounds great. Yeah, he's wonderful. Okay, Al Pacino.

Hanks? We've not given any love to A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood yet. Hanks is a lock. Okay, Hanks. We've not given any love to A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. Hanks is a lock. Okay, Hanks. We've got three, two spots left. Okay. You know it'd be dope if Willem Dafoe got nominated for The Lighthouse. I was about to say, people, I love Willem Dafoe, but so do voting bodies.

He's never won an Oscar. I don't know if he's won a Golden Globe, actually. Yeah, and we did say that Robert Pattinson might get a nomination. I have to say that my reason for picking Robert Pattinson in that case was for Robert Pattinson and not for the performance that Robert Pattinson gives in the Lighthouse. Not because it's bad, but because I don't really see many Hollywood foreign press voters responding to it. The only appropriate response to that statement is, why just spill your beans? It's like, you can keep saying that, but I'm never going to get the reference.

Willem Dafoe has been nominated in the last two years for At Eternity's Gate and The Florida Project at the Golden Globes. So I see it as certainly plausible. Well, we forgot about Hopkins. That seems like such a Golden Globes-y. I agree. The outstanding figures here are Sterling K. Brown, Taika Waititi, Timothee Chalamet, Anthony Hopkins, Ian McKellen,

and Joe Pesci giving arguably the performance of the year. We'll save that for another podcast. Okay. You think Hopkins? Yeah. Well, now I'm like,

what if it's not Defoe and it's Hopkins and Sterling K. Brown? I don't know. Waves has not done as well. It did not get looks at the Spirit Awards. I'm crushed by that,

but it does not feel like the moment is happening. But your point that Sterling K. Brown kind of transcends Waves. And if you have not heard Sterling K. Brown on Bill Simmons' podcast, I would highly recommend it.

He is a phenomenal interview. Such a smart guy. And him talking about why he made Waves and everything that he sort of went through to understand the movie, I thought was like

even more illuminating and even made me like the movie even more so okay I'll go with Sterling K. Brown we'll illuminate Willem Dafoe that we may look back on that with some regret

but we shall see so those are our predictions you feel good about them? No I feel absolutely terrible I feel horrible I hate the Golden Globes I love them I actually like to watch them

quite a bit except for the TV awards which don't matter to me but gosh the thing is is that they're they're way more fun to watch and as a tv show they are constructed for viewing pleasure and that's why for example they don't have supporting actor for both drama and comedy because there's too many categories you gotta you gotta make some decisions you gotta make people

you gotta invent stakes stakes that seem insane. No. You have to have your own internal logic that no one else can understand. No, I'm serious. If it just goes on forever and suddenly I'm watching, the Oscars are so long and I love them. Make the globe six hours. Make them nine hours. No, don't make them six hours. I need five times as many categories.

No, you don't. They don't matter. They don't matter. You don't need categories that don't matter. They matter to me. Okay. And we'll You don't need categories that don't matter. They matter to me. Okay. And we'll be back on Monday to talk about these nominations. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Today Tix.

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And I'm really looking forward to seeing this new play by Jeremy O. Harris. And TodayTix was an incredible way to get those tickets on my hands. So this holiday season gift and experience your loved ones will remember forever and steal the show doing it. Go to TodayTix.com slash big picture and use big picture to get $10 off your first TodayTix purchase. That's todaytix, T-I-X dot com slash big picture, code big picture for $10 off your first ticket purchase. Todaytix.com slash big picture. Let's go to a new segment okay on this podcast which is very important to me i think we'll trade off week to week on this this segment is called hark hark triton hark this is going to feature a quick but vital opinion about movies and here

is my quick and vital opinion about movies the irishman is not too long. Okay. And I just do not want to hear it. I don't want to hear it from my boss, Bill Simmons, who I love. I don't want to hear from people on Twitter. I don't want to hear from people in my family. Its length is purposeful and it's necessary. Life is long and it's a lie and it hurts. And that is essential to understanding the movie. I don't disagree with you. So I was not really on Twitter this weekend because I was in a house with 45 of my in-laws. So that was enough strangers opinions for me for one week. But were people just mad about it? Is that all that it was talking about?

People just being like, this is too long? On Friday morning, this meme appeared about how you can break it into four parts. Oh. And then there was a lot of conversation about, you know, here's what I would cut or we don't need this scene or that scene. Listen, you don't know more about movies than Martin Scorsese. Yeah, that's bad. You don't, person on Twitter. You don't.

You don't know what should be cut. You think the person hasn't thought about what should be cut and not cut in the movie? You think Netflix is like, yeah, do whatever you want, whatever. Make the movie six hours. It doesn't work like that. There's a script. They've got a vision for a movie. Every decision is precise. It's taken years to make this movie. That's it. So there are two pieces of this opinion. One, idiots on Twitter are wrong, which is true. And I think is probably that's going to be the main feature of this segment every week. But I love it because it's great reminding people of that. And then also that three and a half hours is a good runtime for a movie. I agree with you.

It's not a good runtime if the movie is about a Little League baseball game. I mean, you don't know. Well, I feel fairly confident. It is a good runtime if it's the most talented people of their generation convening one final time to make something about the totality of life. I agree with you. And I really do feel like the last hour of that movie falls into place because you've been sitting in your chair for as long. You've been on a journey with those things. And I don't think it works as well if you split it up because like the full weight of the time committed to this.

It's it's durational. Right. But I so I agree with you. I do think it's interesting just in the sense that we from the moment we saw it, we're like, are people going to watch a three and a half hour movie on Netflix and how will they watch it and will that change how people respond to it? They watch 18 consecutive hours of the British baking show. I agree with you. I mean, I don't. No, of course I don't either because I value my life and I dedicate it to spending time with great works of art. I agree with you. I just, it is interesting. We wondered this and it seems like people are not

treating their home viewing Scorsese experience as a temple as we might wish that they did. And I both understand that and think that they're all wrong. And also that you should never talk about in public about things you don't know anything about. So stop editing the Irishman. You don't know how to edit. This has been Hark. Okay, let's go to Stock Up, Stock Down. If it goes bust, you can make 10 to 1, even 20 to 1 return.

And it's already slowly going bust. We've already mentioned it quickly. Knives Out, $40 million at the box office over the holiday weekend, which is a tremendous performance for an original film. We talked about it a little bit on the podcast. I got to say, this movie has me in knots a bit because I really want to have the kind of intense spoilery conversation that I think a movie like this really lends itself to. But I also don't want to spoil anything for anybody who hasn't had a chance to see it yet. So maybe we'll circle back. Maybe at the end of the year, we'll have some sort of like spoiler centric conversation about a bunch of

movies. You know, we haven't done that for Parasite. We even Marriage Story, we kind of picked around the edges. We weren't saying everything we wanted to say. And Irishman to an extent as well. Irishman as well. We won't talk about it unless you guys see the ending. Yes. Watch the whole movie. You have to send us a selfie of you with the ending of the movie.

Okay. People can just fast forward to the credits. I don't think that's going to work. I know, I was, okay, so. Do me a favor, send Amanda selfies. Do not send me any selfies. I don't want to see any photos of you watching a movie. Let me ask you this.

This occurred to me when I, I saw Knives Out a second time. Yeah. Had a really nice time. And I think it was actually, I think it might've been my wife who mentioned this to me after we saw it. We have spent like 18 months on this podcast whinging about how movies ain't what they used to be and how we're not getting what we want. Here are a list of movies that are in theaters or have come out in recent months.

Knives Out, Ford vs. Ferrari 1917, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, Dark Waters, Waves, Marriage Story, The Irishman, and The Two Popes. These are all essentially original movies, most of them from master filmmakers, most of them paid for by big studios with great casts. Movies are good. They're fine. Everything's going well. I regret everything I said about existential woe over the last year and a half. No, movies are great. We have been saying that. It's just that we don't get to talk about these movies that much. And I think also these movies are in theaters for you and for me and for people who live in certain places and can get to go to see The Irishman on a big screen or like, you know, where Waves is their opening weekend for

them. And that's not true for everyone at the same time. On the flip side, all these movies will eventually be available for everybody and a much easier way to see them via streaming networks or, you know, on demand, which is, I still think an improvement, even if you are animals who are not watching The Irishman all at once. But so I went to see. I go home, as I mentioned, to my husband's families for Thanksgiving. It's a very large Thanksgiving. And my husband and I take the younger kids out to a movie at the end of Thanksgiving. And we very much wanted to see Knives Out, you know, or take them to see Knives Out.

I had seen it. And the time just didn't work because there was a Frozen every 30 minutes. So we went to see Frozen 2. And there is, and it was a reminder that it's not engineered for everyone to be able to see everything all the time. It's still engineered for people to be able to see the Disney or the, you know, the Marvel, which is also the Disney movie, as quickly as possible. So we're in a great time and it's great that all these movies are being made. I, you know, will that continue to be the case? I don't know.

Stay tuned to this podcast for the next 10 years while we decide. An elegant segue to our next stock up. Next stock up, we're joined by a very special guest, resident dad and recovering hero, Jason Gallagher. Wow. Thank you. Recovering. Thanks for being here. You're here to talk to us about Frozen 2. Yes.

Because Frozen 2 is just the goddamn biggest movie in the universe right now. We've been talking about all these great, you know, awards films and these movies that we really like a lot. And we've spent the last 10 days just completely ignoring Frozen 2, which has made $738 million at the box office, which is obscene. And Amanda, you went to go see it last night. I went to go see it last night. Jason, you saw it early. Early. And you loved it. Yeah, we had a great time. I went at the El Capitan Theater, owned by Disney. That's right. There was an organist playing before,

and the theater was full of kids. And hard not to buy in when the audience is that enthused for a film. So yeah, I had a great time. I think of the original Frozen as kid narcotic. It is the movie that people in my family, people that I know who have young children have said, this is the movie we put on on the iPad to kind of like zonk my child. Yes. Is that the relationship that you guys have had with the movie? Is that what your son does? You put it on for him and he chills out?

He was actually a little late to the Frozen universe because of when he was born. But once he was old enough, yes, basically, yes. I've always had that kind of appreciation for the movie because, you know, I'm a big Pixar fan.

They make, I try to keep my kid watching somewhat intelligent children's movies. But Pixar is children's movies that are also kind of made for us, like, honestly. And Frozen is just, the first Frozen at least, purely for him, purely for the kids. And to the point where I didn't even really like it that much. And almost every parent I know has this similar feeling where it's like the first time you see it, you're like, oh. And then it just kind of like weighs you down. And then it just ultimately kind of overwhelms you and defeats you. And then all of a sudden you're a Frozen fan and you can't really help it. So I am not a Frozen fan.

Yes. I am not a fan of Frozen 2 either. Amanda, would you call yourself a Frozen fan? I have seen both Frozen and Frozen 2. I would just like to have that on the record. I just want that out there. No, I would say I watched Frozen on a plane just because it was such a phenomenon. And I was like, oh, I guess I should know about this.

And I do also have friends with young children, and I like to be able to relate to them. My favorite encapsulation of the Frozen phenomenon is I have a good friend has a young daughter who is about four. And I was hanging out with her a few months ago and my friend was like hey will you sing let it go for Amanda and her daughter just starts singing the words let it go but with no relationship to the the rhythm or tone of the song let it go because she has never actually seen Frozen or heard let it go she just like knows about Elsa and like and the phenomenon and knows that there's a song called Let It Go. And they just thought it was funnier to let her sing her own songs instead of actually playing Let It Go. So that is how powerful Frozen is, I guess, to small children, which is amazing.

I guess that's it's good that they have things that they like i confess i didn't really understand what happened in frozen 2 that's my main thing and i wanted to ask jason like some plot points some thematic things you know i just i don't understand what's going on except for the fact that like some things look cool and maybe that that's all that matters. Yeah, this movie is bad. And here's why. It doesn't make any sense. And it is one of the most confounding uses of magic in a movie that I've ever seen.

Yeah, so can I ask right here? Isn't that your issue with Frozen 1 as well? Is that it doesn't make sense? Can we have a safe space here? Like, what is the nature of Elsa's powers? Like, what's going on? I think that they're going to run this whole back and forth between, uh-oh, magic's coming.

Maybe she'll learn more magic. And then that just seems to be the back and forth through Frozen 1 and Frozen 2. Again, I totally understand that it doesn't fully make sense. But I sat down and recorded audio of isaac me trying to to be like hey did it was anything confusing for you or anything like that no it was good it was great olaf's funny that's it you know and and and i agree that the magic is is like it is ridiculous and especially in the second in the second film where it's like I remember talking to you Sean

about Frozen 2 and you hadn't seen it yet and I was like well if you felt that way during Frozen 1 you're definitely going to feel that way during Frozen 2 because what the actual issue is is still unclear I guess there's just a voice calling to Elsa and she needs to

go seek that out. I've been there. I was living in Oklahoma and Sean Fennessy just kept calling my phone and I was like, what is that? I need to go to California. I don't have magic powers. I wish I did. So let me ask some follow-up questions. So the lesson we're trying to teach kids is that you need to take full advantage of the powers that you have. Is that what it is? You need to, yeah. And you need to realize that sometimes it's good to break out of what is comfortable for you to seek out a calling. Right? I don't know. I'm really trying here, guys. Here's some quick takes on this movie.

Here are some things that appear in the film. Yes. A water horse. Oh, yeah. This is a horse made of water. Not a seahorse. A water horse. A water horse.

A fire frog. This is a frog that is on fire that creates fire. Lizard? I believe it's a lizard. Lizard. It's a beanie baby. They were just selling

those like hotcakes. I got that immediately. I was like, I know what this is. It's the cute thing. A active stream of wind that has collected leaves that is named Gale.

Yeah. Rock monsters. Yeah. What's wrong with rock monsters? That's what you're mad about? I'm not mad about it. It's just absurd and it doesn't make any sense. They're like, and now we need with rock monsters? That's what you're mad about? I'm not mad about it. It's just absurd. And it doesn't make any sense.

They're like, and now we need the rock monsters to help us destroy the thing. So throw the boulders, rock monsters. Like, there's no, I realize that you talk about Star Wars and Marvel movies. Thanos is literally a fucking rock monster. What are we talking about? He's a beautiful man. He must be respected. He is a mad titan.

I am inevitable. Of all of the things that you're mad about, which include, like, I don't understand the stakes of this movie or how it's resolved, would you want to talk about how it's a thing about Native American reparations until it's not because no one has to pay any consequences? There's really no follow-through on that. None whatsoever.

We can talk about how all of the characters no one has to pay any consequences? There's really no follow through on that. None whatsoever. We can talk about how all of the characters are like this beanpole, crazy skinny, bad image for young women. Also, again, we're still doing princesses. It's 2019, must we? Could we just wear some pants? I have a take about this. And then when they remake, what's her name?

Elsa, she's just like in the ice capades, which I understand is on brand because it's a movie about ice, but it's really not a costume or a look that the young children of the world need to be wearing. So is Elsa an incel? What's the deal here with Elsa, like not pursuing romance in any meaningful way? Well, yeah, I don't i go ahead amanda sorry i'm raising my hand also everyone in this movie definitely uh is like either gay or you know curious fluid sexualities that are not allowed to be exposed explored because it's a movie for children yeah i'm just putting that out there it is very it is christoph and the reindeer and the other reindeer guy just have some have some on things that they need to work out. They have energy. They have heat. That's fine.

That's great. Why can't we just do it? I agree. You're asking for progress from Disney. I agree. Except that he has to propose to what's-her-name who doesn't like him. But he's going to leave her in 10 years and go back to the forest and find Ryder and they're going to fall in love. Ryder. That's the character's name. That's right.

When Ryder and Kristoff were having the conversation in the movie, I was like, this is the only authentic moment in this movie. It's really true. Jonathan Groff is just absolutely phenomenal. He is. His song is fantastic. It's like an 80s power ballad. Yes.

It's so funny. That is by far the cleverest part of the movie. 100%. Jason, you yourself are a songwriter. You're a musical theater expert. I don't know about expert. Of a kind. Yeah.

What do you make of the music in this movie versus the original Frozen? The music in the original Frozen, I think, was so exceptional that there was just no world which Frozen 2

was ever going to touch it, which is why I really appreciated the Groff thing. You know, I thought Olaf's song was cute about growing up, and it all makes sense when he's grown up. Oh, it's the, this is all fine? Yeah, this is great. Yeah, I enjoyed that.

I thought it was cute. But Frozen 1 music was just... Olaf is like in The Irishman, you know? It's like the... It's all about mortality in our lifespan. But Frozen 1 was so... Yeah yeah the music was so outrageous i mean they made a freaking broadway musical out of it um it's not you know it was so it was such an anomaly that there was no way they were going to do it again i i went in there i went into the movie with with expectations fairly low especially after i remember

um was it two years ago where they released the frozen short in front of moana do you guys remember this at all and parents just about rioted it was like the whole cast brought back the people who wrote the the music everything like that brought back and they had a like a 20 minute frozen short at the start of Moana. And parents were so upset that after two weeks they cut the short out. Why? Because it was all Christmas themed. It all came out around Christmas. So it was just like Olaf singing a Christmas song, Elsa and Anna singing a Christmas song. It was the biggest. And that's bad? Is it just because it's only Christmas, you can't do a specific holiday for? I don't know. I think I think for the most part, parents were just like, we didn't sign up for 20 extra minutes

of a movie. Like we came to- Yes. Everybody, like it was pretty, the opposition to it was pretty loud to the point where they wound up cutting it. Parenting is a whole other world, man. Can I ask you, is it the music that is what appeals to kids uh i don't know i think i think it's a i think it's a very cute easy to understand kids movie

they don't explain the magic it's just there and for someone like isaac who is just an absolute simpleton i love him to death um he he doesn't need to know why somebody has magic or what even the magic is capable of. In terms of the music, yeah. I mean, he loves the music. It withstands the test of it's 6.30 in the morning. The kid really wants to listen to music. We're going to listen to Frozen for the 50,000th time and it's just it's actually like palatable in that way and i've told you this before that i actually think there is some um there is the way that they work in like reprises and things like that there's an actual attempt at a musical within the first Frozen movie, which was written by the people who did like Book of Mormon and all that stuff.

So there was like, I had a slightly deeper appreciation for the music of Frozen than I had for other Disney movies like Tangled and all that stuff because it seemed like there was like an authentic musical attempt. So I actually noticed the music more in Frozen 2 than in Frozen 1. In Frozen 1, I was having such a hard time trying to understand what was going on that I think I wasn't probably focusing on the music enough. For some reason, Frozen 2, the music actually worked on me more. Maybe it was because it was just a little bit more self-aware and a little bit less kind of

traditional. But that Olaf song that you talked about kristoff song um even the songs that anna and elsa get to sing feel um more like from the people who would write the book of mormon than say let it go which is just the felt i know is like a juggernaut of culture and to get in its way is to be steamrolled but like i just didn't get it i And I get into The Unknown a lot more. Let It Go, if Parent Hive out there would all say Let It Go is the most overrated song on that soundtrack. Okay. Build a Snowman, First Time in Forever, the duet between the bad guy and Anna.

I can't remember her name. Hans and Anna. All superior to Let It Go, I think. Let me just counterpoint the two of you. I went to see Frozen 2 on Thanksgiving night with like 15 people. Just sat there waiting for over 90 minutes for someone to give me even 10 seconds of Let It Go.

It's like I came to the concert. I knew what I was getting into. Just play the hits. I knew what I was getting into. Just play the hits. I just, I don't understand. What are you doing? It's like a billion dollar song. Just give me one, let it go. Then you can segue into your new bullshit

Panic at the Disco anthem. Just play, let it go. What are we doing? What did you think of Elsa singing the anthem over Panic at the Disco? Was that at the end? Yeah. Well, no. Elsa's version of Into the Unknown.

Once I finally heard it, I was like, okay. Okay, they weren't completely insane. No, the Elsa version is good. Yeah, I heard the Panic at the Disco one first, and it just, I was like, this movie's going to be a disaster. It was very upsetting. So, yeah, I think there was only, a DM and Zell can sing, great for her. She can sing tremendously well.

I thought that this was a pretty, my other issue with Frozen 2 is that they're not really letting a DM and Zell cook. Like, Elsa's pretty boring. I don't understand why kids like her so much. I agree. I just don't, she is just muted and kind of anxious all the time, which I mean, same. She's kind of a millennial princess, though.

She's kind of like, I'm on the internet too much. I've got anxiety. I'm a little depressed. That's kind of Elsa's vibe. I can't find a partner. She doesn't. What's the weight of responsibility is too much. I don't know.

We should cancel Elsa. That's what I want to do on this podcast. Wow. podcast wow i mean yeah there's there's a lot of issues obviously we've talked about like the social stuff and it's like on its surface it's it's good like i liked the i liked in the first frozen the sort of like tablecloth trick of like it's not true love's first kiss it's actually the love between these two sisters and yada, yada, like very good, great, awesome,

whatever. But then it's like, you're, you're right. It's like, what do we do with Kristoff in the second movie? We're just going to make him. It's,

I think I read on Twitter that it was basically like a B plot and a sitcom, like a, like a sitcom where you just can't propose. Silly old Kristoff, but whatever. I liked it final thoughts on frozen too i did really like uh olaf's recap of the whole the whole situation which was that was clearly the two minutes for parents i guess all the kids liked it too but it that was very funny and best possible use of josh gad is these yeah yeah absolutely the second frozen was funnier just in general um well i don't i don't know if it made any more sense than the first one

that's never really been a concern of mine though it's not a concern of parents across the world because this movie is an absolute beast juggernaut but this is probably the last time that we're going to talk about it here on this podcast can i just say say one more thing? I flew to Philadelphia. I've mentioned Philadelphia a lot on this podcast. Sorry. But Andy Greenwald is also from Philadelphia. He and his family happened to be on our flight to LA and from LA, which was very nice. So we were waiting to fly back to LA. And Andy also has two daughters. And I just was like, hey, I saw Frozen 2. And his daughters went from being like, who are you? To being like, in a polite way, I mean, who am I to them?

To just wanting to talk to me at great length. And we were talking about who the spirit was and whether it made sense and what your favorite song was. And I really honestly never felt cooler in my entire life than when these small children went from being like, I don't care about you to being like, yes, I will talk to you. And I was like, wow, I will watch a thousand Frozen twos if it just means that I can get just a small child, just like really locked in and wanting to like bond with me for even five seconds. So I get it. I get why everyone is so obsessed with Frozen two because I felt amazing. Isaac, for his big Christmas present, we've been like, what do you want? You know, we've talked about a bicycle, whatever.

He wants Elsa's Ice Palace, which is from the first Frozen, which is just, I'm like, I don't even make that anymore. And he's just like, it doesn't matter. That's what I want. He found the Lego version. So that's what he's getting. Does Isaac listen to this podcast because I feel like

you're spoiling Christmas for him right now by talking about this it's going to be that some combination of that and Disney Plus or whatever okay

you're going to give him Disney Plus I don't jury's still out we don't know yet we're still debating with bated breath Jason Gallagher

thank you for joining us to share all of your dad lifestyle thanks guys Amanda let's go to the big race. Well, mama, look at me now. I'm a star. The one big category that we didn't spotlight on the Golden Globes is best original screenplay.

We've not talked about any of the screenplay categories yet this year. What's your vibe? How are you feeling? I feel great. This is my favorite category. This is the cool kids category. It's where all the movies we actually like get honored because there's thought put into them

because someone actually sat down and thought about writing a screenplay. And then this is the attention and then they don't win any of the actual major awards, which is okay. That's fine because you get to see people you like on the stage holding an Oscar. And that's great.

I agree. I've got 10 films listed here as our potential contenders. We don't have to necessarily predict per se what we're going to get, but we're in a predicting kind of mood. So I'll start with the obvious, which is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Marriage Story are probably the two most clearly identified frontrunners in this category.

Quentin Tarantino has won this twice. Noah Baumbach has been nominated in the past, but never won. Parasite? Seems quite possible. Seems likely. The Farewell? Yeah, I think if The Farewell has a chance of winning an Oscar, it's in this category for the reasons I just mentioned, which it is a really well-liked movie that will probably just get elbowed out of some of the

larger categories. Maybe not, but I don't know that it's going to defeat Joker for best picture, you know, which I'm not happy about that. But I do think that it has a chance in this category because it is, you know, very thoughtful. And the Academy tends to like to use this category for this space. It is interesting, though, that it's running in original. I think we had not interesting. It makes sense. But we had wondered since it was originally a This American Life. This American Life.

Thank you. Yeah. This American Life episode. This American Life, thank you. Yeah, This American Life episode. That was also written by Lulu Wang, so she was using her own material. But I think there was some confusion about whether it would compete in an adapted original. I think this is the right call. This is like the common sense. It's her story. Something just doesn't feel right to me about the whole farewell campaign.

Okay. I haven't put my finger on it yet. This feels like, I mentioned we're awards virgins right now. Yeah. This feels like a potential casualty. Okay. The more things that open. When a movie like 1917 or Richard Jewell comes along and I'm like, oh, yeah.

Big movie studios, Universal, Warner Brothers, huge campaigns. Interesting kind of complex movies that are probably going to be big hits. The kinds of movies that get put nudged aside of the farewell. Now, that's not always true. Sometimes you get a moonlight, but I don't know. I think that's probably true for Best Picture and the big categories. Again, I think screenplay is still kind of defended by the... It's where a quiet story about feelings still has a chance. It's very true.

Speaking of a quiet story about feelings, painting Gloria Pedro Almodovar's new film, maybe, probably not, maybe. Book Smart, I don't see it. 1917. It's not a bad script, but that's not what the movie's about. No.

And I think the only time that you're aware of the machinations and the manipulation are when the script announces itself to you. And you're like, ah, huh, okay.

It's very well put. Bombshell from Charles Randolph, co-writer of The Big Short. I think this is just about actors. I agree. Knives Out, that would be delightful. I really would.

Again, I don't want to put too much hope into anything that we do because... Maybe there's a campaign here for Knives Out. I didn't get the impression

that when when Rian Johnson came into the studio that he was going to be out on the campaign trail. But maybe there is. You know, if you look at the movie closely enough, there's obviously a lot of themes about class and privilege.

It's also a genuinely fun romp. I do believe Murder on the Orient Express was a multiple nominee. Yeah, that's a good point. Though, again, I think Knives Out is much sharper and wittier and has a lot more going on. And I don't know. I just don't trust a large group of people to. I don't know whether I trust the Academy of Voters to recognize the actual craft that goes into something like that. Because it is so fun.

And you're just like, wow, movie stars. And this is a category for capital W writing where people are, you can see it and you know the dialogue and the lines and someone like sat down and was very seriously like, I wrote a screenplay. I agree. Part of what makes Knives Out so appealing is it seems so effortless. Yes. And it's not effortless at all. It's very meticulous, but it just flows. It's not showy. I agree with you. That would be fun to see that happen.

Dolomite is my name. Do you think this is the fifth? I don't know. Larry Karaszewski and Scott Alexander, hugely respected. Larry Karaszewski

is on the board of governors with the Academy. Very, a huge sort of advocate for films and film history. They've obviously, they've, I believe they've been nominated in the past.

They wrote Ed Wood. They wrote The People vs. Larry Flint. They wrote The People vs. O.J. Simpson. I think it'll be interesting to see if this movie gets into the Oscar conversation for real. I think there's a warmth towards it. I think people say it's breezy. It's fun to be with. It's great to have Eddie back, but it doesn't have the same level of sort of emotional conversation that something

like Marriage Story or The Irishman has, you know, that that's the weightiness that you want. It's comedy. I mean, and that's kind of Knives Out is a little bit a comedy. It is a comedy, even though there are serious issues in both. And both are very hard to do. And comedy, frankly, is probably harder to write than a serious drama of autofiction. But you're right.

People take the solemn projects more seriously. I feel like this is, if things go the once upon a time in Hollywood way for best picture and maybe even best director, I feel pretty strongly

that Marriage Story will win best screenplay yeah you know what I mean yes if it doesn't go that way if things start to go awry here and we're going to find out

I think starting on Monday right starting on Monday we're going to have a much better sense of how the narratives will unfold it's so bizarre

that we let the Golden Globes do that but continue they don't do it they reflect they reflect the reality of the world that you and I still don't want to acknowledge at this point. It's nice. This is our last podcast of hope and possibility and talking about things that we like and craft and people

deserving things. How's it feel? It feels great. Amanda, thank you for participating in this. Let's go to my interview now with another person who represents hope to me, Todd Haynes. Delighted to be rejoined by Todd Haynes. Todd, thank you for coming back to the show. Absolutely, Sean. Thank you. So Todd, usually it's about four or five years between a film for you. And I look forward to it greatly, but it's a long span of time. Dark Waters came quick. Less than two years?

Dark Waters came two years after Wonderstruck. How did that happen so quickly? How did the movie come to you? The movie came to me before I really could make a commitment to it. I mean, the amazing thing about the speed of this particular production is how quickly it followed the very first New York Times expose that landed in 2016. 2016 is like, you know, yesterday.

And very quickly, it circulated among studios and participant media and through agents and reps for Mark Ruffalo. And by 2017, there was a draft of a script and Mark had sent it to me. That's how quickly this thing was moving along. That's crazy in movie time, right? I feel like that isn't usually how things work for you, though. Well, it doesn't work for me, but it doesn't usually work in general that quickly, right? That's true. I mean, it's nuts,

but absolutely not for me. And I'm sort of run my own sort of time frame and timeline and process. And I'm rarely the kind of director who can be juggling serious and important projects all at the same time

and sort of shifting immediately from one to the next. I really like to get deeply immersed into everything that I do and have done. And a lot of them have been things I've written and researched myself and developed over years. And then I really like to spend the time promoting them and learn a lot on that end of the spectrum and really see how the films are connecting to people and working for critics and audiences. So all of this was in sort of hyperdrive on Dark Waters. Now, when he first brought it to me, I couldn't make a commitment because I had other things set up.

And 2018 was a busy year for me, period. And I spent time on this other project that I'm developing, this limited series about Sigmund Freud. I have some questions about that. Oh, yeah. I have some questions about that too. Once I was able to really allot the time with a co-writer on it and sort of feel like we had built our foundation, laid our foundation for what we want to sort of set out to do, we knew it was going to take a long time to write and continue to write and further research that project. It looked like I had a little opening. And Mark came back and said, we haven't found somebody I'd love you to reconsider.

And I did. And the script had certainly stayed with me. The story, what it was about, and the kind of movie uh i thought it could be reminded me of movies that mark wouldn't have known this about me that i really love and that i find myself returning to uh there they haven't been these these whistleblower uh films if you will and you know these aren't necessarily a genre of film if you can call it that that my work has been principally associated with um i was very surprised to see that you were

taking this on and you made it yours which i have some questions about too thank you but what did mark want from you why did he it's a compliment what what did mark say this is what you can bring to this mark philip that this script was a first draft that we had first looked at and he had questions for rob a lot even based on the initial nathaniel rich piece in the new york times uh he wanted to get deeper into the sort of psychic and psychological sort of experience that this guy, Robert Ballott, went through, what he did. And that's really, I think, what interests me about some of the best of its kind, these kinds of films. Films like, you know, obvious titles, the Pakula Paranoia Trilogy of the 70s, you know, Clute, Parallax View, and of course,

All the President's Men. The Insider, a magnificent film by Michael Mann. Silkwood, beautiful, beautiful, moving film by Mike Nichols. The great Sidney Lumet films, you know, there's a whole sort of basket of films that deal with stories of people standing up to systems of power. But I think what I find the most compelling and moving about the best of these films is how painful they are, the kind of peril that the central figures are put in and how isolated we are with them in the dark as they start to figure out what's really happening without preconceptions. And that's so utterly true for this film and this story and this character. He's such an unlikely guy. On the surface, he's an unlikely guy for what he actually did as a defense attorney in defending corporate industry, chemical companies in Cincinnati, that that kind of discipline, that overhead, the structure of a billable hours as opposed to plaintiff's attorneys, that's about settlements and moving things over quickly and getting cash rewards that kind of ability to get in this deep into a story

is precisely what made him an ideal if not exemplary figure for this but it still puts you into incredible um lonely and long story process right and i And I found that destabilizes you. Even when you start realizing the depth and breadth of what you're onto, and when the power systems that be start to realize you're onto them and they start to push back and you get mad and it propels you deeper and then they push back harder and they make threats and it's this it's this sort of tangle that these people get into and so that i find to be uh profoundly moving fascinating uh terrifying and in many ways an example of how we deal with an incredibly complex and troubling

world. We're not all going to be Rob Balotz, but these movies or Woodbridge and Bernstein's or Jeff Wigand's, but a lot of these people are fairly ordinary too. They're not necessarily, by definition, heroic and exemplary. Yeah, you go to pains, I think, to show that Rob maybe could not have gone in this direction. He could have just continued on in his life as a corporate lawyer, could not have risked a great deal of stability and success to do this. And, you know, that's part of that is in Mark's performance. But as I was watching the movie, I was trying to understand how you brought your visual approach. I know that you're very meticulous in preparing a movie, shot listing.

I feel like your films tend to have elegant design and beautiful people, often well-dressed, but masking something. And this movie is kind of the opposite of that in a way. A lot more people are kind of hangdog. There's a lot of middle class, lower class representation, a lot of people in law firms, which are not the most visually exciting places to shoot. of create this spectrum within the film, I did find to be visual opportunities. And the movies that I'm talking about often take place in these very particularly industrial and corporate interiors and space. And we think, you know, the images that come to mind, especially when they happen to be shot by Gordon Willis, for instance, in some of these great films, is of the individual alone in a massive space, whether it's underground in the parking garage with Deep Throat, Robert Redford, or Russell Crowe sort of skulking out of those corporate

offices in slow motion, or Meryl Streep having been cooked again in the plutonium plant alone at night, cleaning it up, cleaning up the space and sliding down the wall as the sirens are spinning. So, and I find all those images to be powerful, beautiful, disturbing, of course, but when they're handled, you know, with a visual consideration like Gordon Willis or Pacullo or Nichols or Michael Mann, they sear into you and they kind of become emblems for what these films are really about. the hundreds of boxes of hundreds of thousands of papers of discovery that he finally manages to to uh shake from uh dupont um walking those lonely uh corridors of taff law this is also shot in the actual locations of of taft in cincinnati which i found to be such a visual and aesthetic gift in the way light

was cast from these different size windows looking out onto downtown Cincinnati through flanks of sort of screens of obfuscation from neighboring buildings and then little surprise glimpses all the way through to the Ohio River that runs through the center of Cincinnati. But yeah, so I just brought that same kind of attention. Now, I chose with Ed Lachman, with Hannah Beachler, my production designer, Ed being my DP since far from heaven, 2002, to favor a kind of restrained, observ the law offices in Cincinnati, to the suburban home of the lot. You know, he actually lives in North Kentucky, but it's not mentioned in the movie so you feel the sort of continuum of these of these places and people and that i think the whole first part of the film is is in a weird way traversing the class

distinctions uh that separate these people from each other wilbur tenant the farmer played by bill camp from rob ballott the lawyer played by by Mark Ruffalo, who actually doesn't have a fancy law degree. And he's thusly separated and distinguished in pedigree from Tom Terp, who runs the environmental practice group at TAF, played by Tim Robbins. And there was a little bit of tension, and you wonder, where is this going? And what's this about? And there's resistance to crossing these class lines. And then as the story starts to unfold and Rob begins to trust that what this, you know, pretty ornery farmer is telling him may very well be true. These lines start to disappear and you realize, well, they don't disappear, but they're traversed and that there's a codependence that is set up among all these people without which these several cases would never have gone forward. This isn't necessarily true of some of the movies that you cited, but I feel like a lot of times an issues-oriented legal thriller can be a very

predictable kind of movie and can sometimes have a kind of false sense of victory around it. And this movie is very nuanced and almost punishing in how it withholds that uplifting thing that people sometimes seek out or expect in a movie like this. I assume that that was a hugely purposeful choice. That's what drew me to it. It's not necessarily the way, look, we're promoting the film right now. This is a burning and ongoing issue. What Rob has discovered, and this is what drove Mark Ruffalo largely to take part in this movie and make it happen and what participant media

and what Rob's entire life has been dedicated to. These are really important issues to talk about straightforwardly, but I loved how punishing and difficult it was and how much a kind of orthodoxy was not being provided to the viewer from the start, largely because of the nature of these guys and that they're all kind of starting on the wrong side of the, of the team. But also because I find, uh, this isn't usually something that's coming up as much in our, in our group Q and a's after the movie

is that movies have a hard time telling the truth and there's good reason to have suspicion about direct truth being expressed in narrative film and that interests me the fact that movies are about as truthful and untruthful at the cinema is about as truthful and untruthful at the same, cinema is about as truthful and untruthful at the same time as you can imagine. And so, and yet I've always had this sort of ambivalent fascination with social justice movies, which try to navigate these things, whether it's Capra or Pazan or, you know, I find the movie Gentleman's Agreement to be an incredibly fascinating film. You know, Iva Fassbender, the German director who I've always loved, said once, the revolution does not belong on the screen. When you put it up there on the screen, it deprives audiences of the necessity of finding out your own response

to problems in the world. I'm paraphrasing horribly, but in English. I assume it was originally spelled in German. It was in German. But I've always sort of felt like that. Like you've got to show the conflicts and the issues and the problems and give it to the viewer. Give them something to do. When you wrap it all up in a bow and they leave with a victory dance and a sort of silver bullet, the issues feel resolved and closed.

And that's not the case in this story. That's what I was going to ask you. Do you think that walking out of the movie with a drop or a pound of cynicism is actually potentially more helpful, more insightful and useful? I guess because the concept of whether a movie like this can help, can change people's minds or make them aware of something that they otherwise took for granted, in part feels like one of the necessities of the movie. But if you exit the movie feeling like this isn't done, this is very far from done. Absolutely. Is that better in a way than we did it? It's absolutely better for me. It's not only, it's also just the truth, the real truth,

because systems of power are not going to disappear. And when you start to see how far reaching this contamination of this chemical PFOA has traveled literally to 99% of all living creatures in the globe, starting in regional Midwestern water districts because of, you know, reckless practices around the Washington works plant in, in, in Parkersburg spreading from water system to water system.

That's what water systems do. And then spreading and spreading and spreading. And then it becomes this ubiquitous presence in the bloodstreams of the entire planet. You realize that it's almost on a par with something like capitalism or patriarchy. Something that we did not ask to be infected by, but that we are, that we have to identify and call out and figure out your way to stand up against if you choose to. But it's never going to completely go away, these systemic issues.

We have to take the steps we can take and be engaged. What's the alternative? To put your head back in the sand and go back and use your Teflon? None of us agreed to trade our bloodstreams and our health for the ease of cookware, right? We were never asked that question. you know cookware cookware yeah right yeah no we were never asked that question so

you have to live your life with your eyes open but without simple answers to the problems you did something really interesting

in the film that I don't know I can't recall another example of it somehow you made the information dump the exposition right also sort of the climax of the movie and also made it it reminded me a lot of poison and of dotty and things early in your career that were highly visual highly archival referencing that

like moving quickly fast cutting you mean sort of in the middle of the movie yeah in the middle yeah and that sequence is really effective. And in other movies, that sequence would just be Mark's character and Anne's character talking to each other at a kitchen table. Right. So maybe you can help me understand how that came from.

Was that on the page? Was that something that you guys brought to it when you were doing the edit? How did you unpack that? I have to say, Mario's version of the script, Mario Correa followed Matthew Michael Carnahan's initial drafts of the script.io correa followed matthew michael carnahan's initial drafts of the script my matthew went off and directed a movie of his own and and so when i came on we needed we wanted to do some more work on the script and i wanted to meet all these people

freshly and go to go to parkersburg and uh cincinnati with mario and with with mark and we did, and this was as, as recently as the, as the end of May in 2018. And very quickly, Mario moved toward this new draft of the script and it was his beautiful idea to parallel cut Rob finally telling the story that he'd been researching through discovery and investigating through his discovery process and you know it's it's not entirely dissimilar for from how long it takes for instance in a movie like the insider it takes like you know halfway through the film to even know what the issue is the issue is what he's holding is like a he's like a vaulted you know uh trunk and pacino knows there's something in there but it's and there's this tremendous sense of dread

and sort of loathing and pain and hangs over the eventual um revelations which creates a sense of anticipation and suspense. It's also a dramatic technique. So we just had this challenge of doing something similar, but what was hard is that it was all third-hand information. Rob was not even an investigative journalist who's interviewing subjects one-on-one and you get to see them. This is all through document research and an incredible painstaking labor that he spent months locked up in rooms going through paperwork. So that's a challenging, dramatic premise to bring to show little small bits of discovery and revelation. As you're kind of drifting away from Rob as he gets surrounded by the boxes, we black teeth that are being seen in Parkersburg, but seen in the Wilbur's cows. And then the realization that it's not just in Wilbur's Creek, a runoff from the landfill that neighbors his farm, but it's in the entire water systems.

And DuPont has been doing tests in the water systems. And we have documents showing that. So you just get these little glimmers of clues of sort of – and then finally we get to the point where Rob delivers it to Annie and Anne Hathaway in the kitchen. Sarah, his wife. Tim Robbins in their office. And then Victor Garber, who is the lawyer for DuPont, who they've been dealing with at Taft. And but yeah, it's and it's played through with a single solo piano piece that runs about eight minutes long. That it has to be compelling, but delicate enough to sort of support this extended series of monologues. But you need it at this point.

The audience is ready for it. And it marks really the end of the first act of the movie before we begin, before the tenant case gets settled. And then we move to this massive class action case on the heels of what Rob discovered. Just so amazingly well done. I knew you would be able to explain how and why that would work well. You've made movies

sort of about real people before, sort of about Bob Dylan, sort of about Karen Carpenter. Did you see the Scorsese doc? Did you see Rolling Thunder review? I loved it so much. I loved it so much. It was so genius.

It was brilliant. And if anything, I felt like that just proved I'm not there. So the sort of went away for a minute. His illusory sense of himself. Oh, my God. It was great.

So great. That's a good point. That would be a great double feature, those two movies together. Oh, my God. Seriously. But you were able to, not take liberties necessarily, but reimagine someone's life or the context of someone's life. This is different. This feels very authenticated.

Yeah. Was it important to you that it seemed real, that these seem like real people? Or did you have to take some dramatic license with telling the story? Well, both, you know, it's a movie and you have to compact and condense and make specific dramatic choices about how to keep it much more complicated and arduous and multi-pronged legal to major legal cases trackable by the audience. I think the thing about these movies when they do work, if they work, and I feel this every time I watch all the president's menus, we're not really watching it to learn about the corruption of the Nixon White House. We're not watching it to learn how it ends. We're watching

a process unfold. And even the specifics and the minutia of corroborating stories that the journalists are undergoing and the missteps or the or the for the fact that that they were actually on the right path and then the white house really pushes back uh puts you into this this process you know you're really engaged in process and the audience has to feel a kind of trust that there's a forward momentum that's taking us somewhere. It may have fits and starts and three steps forward and two steps back, but it's moving somewhere without having to feel like you are responsible for following every aspect of the legal strategy or the journalistic strategy, whatever it is. You have to trust it's all there,

but you also have to be able to dispense with it and watch these other more human factors take over. And that sort of, I think, is what we tried to balance with authentic detail, but dramatic liberty, obviously. And the dramatic detail was just great because you could, a lot of very small decision-making could be answered by the real people right there. Reality is always sort of surprising and it kind of tips you in ways you wouldn't necessarily select yourself if you were free to do so. Just the different interiors of these people's real houses and the clothes that they wore and what was really on the tables at the, you know, the deposition scene or the with the CEO of DuPont. Rob was always around to answer these very specific questions. And a lot of them, they might have seemed like banalities to to people but i kind of relished in having those specific details you know that scene that deposition

scene with holiday it looks like a direct homage to and it sort of is uh gordon willis's top down lighting against these dark conference rooms the the top lighting the dark green walls the little couple of paintings hanging on the wall the dark conference room table and the dark suits. And so it really was something out of like the Godfather in the way it was experienced and the way it really looked. Would he, would Rob on set say, I wouldn't say that. That didn't happen. It wasn't quite like this, Mark. No, it's not his time. It's not his sort of nature to do so. Okay. He's very respectful. He's very guarded. But we would go to him and ask him all the questions. And he was unbelievably generous and easy to talk to and ask even the most minute and kind of mundane question.

And he was there to answer it. And that was just – at first I thought, oh my God, do I really want the real guy there every day? You know? And then I just got so, he relaxed. Like Rob, we were talking about this last night, Mark and I had this Q&A and we watched him change. We watched him uncoil around us.

You can only imagine what it's like to have done what he's done in such isolation with, you know, a sense of threats to his well-being and his health. And those physical symptoms he suffered are real. And they got that bad. And they were as sort of insufficiently diagnosed as they are in the movie and who knows you're taking on the biggest chemical one of the biggest chemical companies in the world you know they're capable of anything so that's a question i wanted to ask you about we never hear about this but like i don't know what brown williamson's relationship to uh the insider is but right was there an awareness on dupont's part that you were

doing this did you ever have any communication with them do you have any sense of how they received the movie now that you finished it no and i think i have i have no doubt that the moment that article landed in 2016 internal business and executive branches within you know officials within dupont were immediately there to start talking about PR and how to protect themselves against the fact that this could very well be option for a film and see a wider audience than it's already seeing in the New York Times. It's what they do, right? Any corporation has to think of their self-preservation and their image. We all assumed that they were not going to take public stands against the film

because it would only draw more attention to it. And that's pretty much been the case so far. There has been some pushback a little bit, not through DuPont directly, but through a sort of organization of businesses in Ohio that are saying the truth about dark waters. It's just a bunch of Hollywood liberals trying to line their pockets and mislead the public without really challenging any of the – Trying to line their pockets. Yeah. Good one.

Right? And without really challenging any of the specifics of the story uh thus far it's very tacit but but um but it's already out there that's a nice segue trying to line their pockets um it's harder for you to get movies made right now um you know i just been i've continued to be lucky lucky uh and uh like i said this one came so fast and furiously to me wonderstruck was was a relatively quick process and an unusual film and sort of hit amazon at a moment of its changing evolution and trying to find what its mandate is. And, uh, that was a moment where it was really director driven and, and trying to take some risks in what they were doing.

And it all came together fairly quickly. I missed that period already. Yeah. Um, although there it's amazing how many great people like Ted Hope are still there, which gives me hope. And I'm sure he gets that pun a lot.

Um, but, um, but no, it no, it's, you know, I'm worried about the bra. I mean, I can count my blessings and still have great concern about where the industry is going and how hard it is for emerging voices to get their films made and do anything outside sort of established, you know, um, franchise kinds of filmmaking. And, uh,

also the amount of content being produced for streaming is dizzying. I can't possibly keep up with myself. I'm completely woefully behind all the time. Me too. And it's my job and it's our jobs, right do this and of course there's great stuff in there and then there's some less great stuff in there and i have just having the time to weed between the two and determine which is which is hard that should be a good thing that should produce a great sense of creative sort of competition and options you know um but there's just seems to be uh it's it's occupying so much space and consuming so much

uh so many resources and artists and technicians and studios and you know, so post-production facilities that it's sort of locked in, in a way. And the bigger the company, you know, the Netflixier the company, the more leverage they have and monopoly they have over what's available. So, again, it feels hard for movement, sort of healthy shifts of movement and openings to occur. But I've been lucky so far and knock wood, you know, continue to be able to do the things that interest me and then be open to things that come my way that I wouldn't necessarily have considered like this project. You have two things in the works. When I last saw you, you were telling me about the Velvet Underground. That's still happening. Can't wait for that. You also mentioned the limited series. Do you feel an urgency to do more things at this stage of your life, to be more productive in terms to schedule and divide myself between the things that I've already committed to and still consider things that are coming to me or being offered to me as well when gaps open up like one did here. about having to make sure I keep my eye on my own priorities and, and different things require

different kinds of timetables, you know, um, while we were cutting this, I mean, I did all the interviews for the Velvet Underground doc in 2018 leading up to pre-production on Dark Waters. Those were in the can. A co-editor, my editor, Afonso Gonsalves, worked with on the Stooges doc with Jim Jarmusch. Adam took over on Velvet Underground. He was working in Brooklyn while we were working in Manhattan. He ultimately moved into our room at Dark Waters, so I had one screen of Velvet Underground

and one screen of Dark Waters going at the same time. And yet, really, what I crave is being able to have this be put aside and have the publicity process settle down and turn myself wholly back into this extraordinary moment in the avant-garde of New York and the music world and the Velvets. And we have an incredible database with so much great material and so much amazing archival stuff and great interviews that we conducted.

And so I'm just sort of itching to be able to descend back in, but I kind of need to do that. I kind of need to really get lost in whatever it is I'm doing for a time. I'm looking forward to that. A couple more for you and I'll let you go. Sure. If you could program a double feature with Dark Waters, what would you pair it with if you had to choose just one? It doesn't necessarily have to be in that legal thriller mold,

the Gordon Willis collection. It's almost maybe more interesting if it wasn't. I don't know. I've been watching, you you know spreading out from the sort of theme of paranoia and looking at social systems with from a different vantage point i couldn't help but revisit the two great invasion of the body snatchers you know the don siegel and the kaufman one it's just incredible i just watched it on on a print uh at bam uh a month ago so good it was like a really bad print it was a red all all the greens

and blues had had drained out of it and i still feel like i hadn't seen it before when i watched it on the screen they're both so interesting of course the 70s version has the fatalistic ending, you know, the way the Parallax View has, the way Chinatown has, that sort of darker revisionist perspective from that era. But the Don Siegel film is just perfection. It's just so gorgeously shot. I probably haven't seen it since high school. Oh, God. It's so stunning. I'd love to see that on the screen.

I'd love to get a print of that. Get one of our preservation prints that are being made for Dark Waters and watch the two of them. We have a print of Carol that Ed Lockman and I invested in. Bumped up to 35 from what we shot on 16. They get showed annually at the Metrograph and elsewhere. And it's just so stunning to have it. I'm so happy we did it, you know? I asked you about the Carol Hive last time you were here.

This is probably difficult for you to answer, but if you could be remembered 100 years from now for one of your films, would you be able to choose one? It's hard. You know what's so funny, Sean, is the way my movies develop you know people know my work and i and i and i know that that's true it always sort of surprises me sometimes to that that is the case uh as an independent filmmaker from the years i've been

working but many of my movies have garnered very distinct audiences that are not the same ones. So people who adore Velvet Goldmine, for instance, are different from the ones that really are obsessed with Carol. And then the ones who love I'm Not There, the Dylan film, and the people who love Safe. And I love that. It's so great.

And I go to, I'd speak and I do public things and I can see people coming up to me and they're, and I can just sort of tell in advance which film it is that they kind of dig that changed them, you know, and I can hear it coming out of their mouth. Well,

yeah, it's often like a cool looking, like black dyed hair woman with a blunt cut hairdo and cool makeup. And she's like, felt the gold mine changed my life, you know? And it's great. It's gratifying because they don't necessarily belong to the same tribes. It's true. I have my favorite.

And so I dig that. Oh, come on. Let me hear. Come on. Maybe later. All right. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. What's the last great thing I've seen?

I haven't seen any new films because I've been so hunkered down with this. That's okay. It can be something else. Oh, Force of Evil I've been watching. That film is so Polanski. That's just an incredible film. Tell me just a little bit about it well i've it's about it's with john garfield it's a film that scorsese really it sort of changed him he

saw it when he was a kid in the theaters um it's about uh corruption course plays a role in racketeering and small time and bigger time corruption and so it's just so beautifully fraught and and it doesn't resolve it leaves you with a sense of residual pain and and regret um but it's it's so beautifully shot and it's it's it's a great one sounds like it also be a good pairing with dark waters todd thanks for coming back. Thanks so much, Sean. Thank you to Todd Haynes. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins and to the big homie, Jason Gallagher. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture. Later this week, we will have a four-person roundtable talking about the best movies of 2019. See you then.