The Big Picture - ‘The King of Staten Island’ and the Judd Apatow Hall of Fame

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

After five years away from feature filmmaking, Apatow is back with a new muse: ‘SNL’ star Pete Davidson, who loosely adopts his life story for their new dramedy. Sean and Amanda review the film—which features some great performances and a few new moves for the writer-director—and then look back at Apatow’s career to build a Hall of Fame enshrining his greatest contributions to movies and TV. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Judd Apatow. We've been eyeing this for many months, ever since we learned that the King of Staten Island would be coming directly to our homes via VOD. It hit our homes on Friday. Amanda, we got a chance to see the King of Staten Island later in this episode. We're going to build a shrine to the career of Apatow. Certainly the, is it

fair to say the most significant creator, producer, writer, director of comedy in the 21st century? Am I overstating things if I say that? No, I think that's correct. Just in terms of market share alone, like the list that we're going to choose from, because we're going to be doing a hall of fame that incorporates not just the films he has specifically directed, but written and produced and kind of shepherded over the last, I guess, 20 years at this point, which makes me feel quite old. Seriously. I mean, he is in many ways our emergence out of adolescence and into adulthood. And we're just a few years behind him. And we've been going through the stages of life with Judd. Interestingly, Judd went back to a younger stage of life to work with Pete Davidson on the King of Staten Island. Let's talk about this movie.

This is an interesting object of the 21st century to me in a lot of ways. I'll just say at the top of this conversation that I liked it. I actually liked it, I think, a little bit more than the last couple of Judd Apatow movies. And there are some reasons for that. It signals something to me about growth, not just for Pete Davidson, but for Judd Apatow, though we may disagree about that. So before we get too deep into our feelings about it, for those people who don't know, this is basically a thinly veiled portrait of Pete's life. It's well known that Pete lost his father in 9-11. In this film, his character lost his father not in 9-11, but attempting to save someone's life in a fire. He was a firefighter, and he's essentially attempting to make his way through adulthood.

He still lives at home with his mother, who's played by Marissa Tomei. She soon begins dating a man played by Bill Burr. He has a sister who's headed off to college, which is continuing to destabilize him. He's got some hangabout friends who aren't really going anywhere fast. And he is living in this outer borough experience, trying to figure out who he is and what he's going to become. So in many ways, it's similar to a lot of Judd Apatow movies. And in many ways, it's different. What did you make of the movie just broadly, Amanda? So I watched it a little bit later in the cycle than everybody else in my life who I talked about it with,

which was Sunday as opposed to Friday or as opposed to like as a screener, as the case may be. And I think that's a pretty specific experience in my part. But I was knowing what other people had thought about it, which was primarily that it was quite long. It wasn't that long. And also, we know that that is a feature of Judd Apatow movies in general, which we'll talk more about. But I enjoyed it, or I found it very watchable. I thought that there, I have some notes, as I think we all might but in terms of just like spending

some time with Pete Davidson sure you know I spent two hours with Pete Davidson and it's inevitable when you watch something at home to compare it to other things you watch at home and other things watching TV but to me like it honestly just felt like a type of TV show that I'm pretty familiar with now, which is a comedy that's really a drama centered on a young comedian and just exploring their life. And it was two hours instead of, I guess, normally they're five hours because they're like 10, 30-minute episodes is the standard for that. But that format made sense to me watching at home. And I was like, okay, you know, I'll watch this. And then I went on with my life. Yeah. You and I have been having this conversation about TV shows that ultimately

feel like they're telling the stories of movies. You know, I mentioned Normal People a few weeks ago or Mrs. America, these stories that while they're deeper and potentially more complex as TV shows, they have the feeling of a feature film format. This movie is kind of the inverse of that. It kind of feels like the first four episodes of the Pete Davidson show. And that's not that surprising when you think about Judd and what Judd does, right? So in addition to the 40-year-old Virgin and Knocked Up and these legendary comedies that he's worked on or produced like Anchorman, you know, Judd's, to me, a huge part of Judd's legacy.

And you could make the case, the bigger part of Judd's legacy is the Larry Sanders show and Freaks and Geeks and Crashing and Girls and all of these TV series that he played a big part in. And in some cases, he was a writer. In some cases, he was a producer. But the way that you described that, these movies that seem like comedies but are ultimately dramas, I mean, that's his form. And it's not necessarily like he invented that, but I think he kind of modernized it. And I think that will... I had a couple of personal revelations returning to a couple of his movies last night and how I think about who Judd became and who I think, who I

thought he was going to be, which is not exactly, he didn't turn out to be the director that I thought he was going to be, but this movie in many ways returned him to, I think what my expectations were when I first became aware of him after say say, The Cable Guy, where he was a producer. And even though he doesn't have a writing or directing credit on that movie, he was famously very wounded by the poor critical and commercial reception of that movie. And it says a lot. Because Judd Apatow fancies himself a Hal Ashby fan and a John Cassavetes fan. And he likes a left turn 70s movie the same way that you and I might. He's a huge fan of being there, for example. But Judd's never really had a chance to make a being there. I would not say that the King of Staten Island is being there. That's not-

Have you? By the way, have you rewatched being there in the past three to five? I rewatched it a few months ago because I believe Jonah Hill put it on a list of things he's watching in quarantine for GQ. That's quite a journey of a movie. I would just like to say the last 30 minutes of being there go some unusual places. It's fascinating. It's a really ballsy movie. I am a huge fan. It became newly relevant, I think, when Donald Trump was elected.

A lot of people were like, any dumb schmuck can be elected to office we have movies about this um yeah i haven't i haven't revisited in a couple of years though the king of staten island does not aspire to the i don't know notions of politics and and and even intellectualism that something like being there is kind of after this is a much more contained story it's a very intimate portrait of a guy who is coping with depression and who has borderline personality disorder and has Crohn's. And you don't usually hear about those things

in mainstream comedies from people who star on SNL and the director of movies like Knocked Up. Did you, at what point when you were watching the movie, did you sense like, Oh, this isn't exactly, this isn't train wreck.

Well, pretty quickly because it train wreck memorably and train wreck is something I rewatched last night for the first time in a while, but train wreck essentially starts with, um, the very kind of broad and, uh, body comedy that both Judd Apatow and Amy Schumer are famous for. And then kind of it goes from like the more like not gross out as much as just like sex jokes that are really going for it in the first 30 minutes. And then kind of becomes more like a story about it becomes a romantic comedy essentially. And King of Staten Island just signals pretty quickly.

We are going to, one of the first scenes is about Pete Davidson's character. His name is Scott and his, his dad having died and how his friends talk about it. And there is like some, they're like kind of jokes, but it's also jokes with like, it's very wounded underneath.

And then you immediately go into a scene with Scott's mother played by Marissa Tomei and the sister. And like the family drama is immediately, it's front loaded in the movie. And that gives you a sense of, oh, okay. So we're,

we're going straight to the emotions. Yeah, it's an interesting choice. And you can tell that he's done this in part by how the way the movie looks. There's been a lot of attention paid to the fact that Robert Elswit shot this movie as opposed to a lot of Apatow's typical directors of photography. Elswit has shot some of my favorite movies ever made, including six PTA movies. He shot Michael Clayton. He shot The Town. He shoots many of the Christopher McQuarrie Mission Impossible movies. He's a very seasoned and serious director of photography. And I think when you look back at the 40-year-old version, I wouldn't say the cinematography pops,

but this movie is lit differently. It shot differently when it's outside you are truly outside it is sun dappled when it's inside it's very dark and very interior and the the way that it's shot is like telling the story in many ways of what scott is going through which is an interesting wrinkle i think in some respects these choices are superficial and can be interpreted as being superficial. Do you think that the slight tweaks in tone and approach that Apatow is taking here signal some sort of growth? Or is it just him trying to do the appropriate thing for the story that he's telling? What do you think goes into these choices? I think it's maybe a little bit of growth or a little bit of this is what Judd Apatow wanted to do. And you were referencing, you know, his affection for the 70s movies, but then he became famous for 40-year-old version

and knocked up and being the producer of Superbad. And, you know, what you remember from those movies is not the cinematography, but a bunch of guys sitting in a room making like pop culture references and really specific gross jokes that are, you know, have some of them of which are still very funny. And we'll talk about that. And then he kind of became famous for like finding that whole group of comedians and kind of fostering like a next generation, you know,

you're, you're Seth Rogans and you're Jason Segel's, et cetera. And I, this, the last 10 years of his career in a lot of ways, especially with what he's been doing on TV, like are more in line with King of Staten Island in terms of just seeking out

the emotions. And honestly, the King of Staten Island, it like is shot in a way that's very familiar to people who have watched Girls or Rami or Shrill or one of the, again, these like 30 minute dramedy shows about a young person who is played by a comedian

and the show is like close to certain aspects of their lives. So I think it is both signaling that it's a different type of movie and that it's what Judd Apatow is interested in right now. And also kind of what he's been interested in, in different formats from his like mega box office hits for a while. The other thing that jumped out to me that was strikingly different, and this is true of a lot of those TV shows that you're talking about,

is this is a movie set in a working class milieu on the East Coast and not on the West Coast. And a lot of his movies over the last 15 years, even though they have gotten slightly wealthier over time, by the time we get to this is 40 and we see that there's a couple with a family who ostensibly are having money trouble. And I thought Adam Neiman really put his finger on this well in his piece about King of Staten Island. They're still basically living in an upscale

neighborhood in Los Angeles, and the patriarch of the family works in the music industry. And there's a casual interaction with people like Billy Joe Armstrong from Green Day in the movie. This is completely different. These are anonymous, ignored people living in Staten Island. They're headed nowhere. You know, like Pete's character's ambition is to open a tattoo parlor that is also a restaurant. He is, this guy is kind of a moron, you know? I mean, he's obviously a damaged guy and he's doing his best, but these people are not that smart. Like I said, they're all working class. They're a lot of firefighters. They're nurses. Marissa Tomei plays a nurse. Bill Burr plays a firefighter. You could say that this is a

very kind of removed portrait of a working class life on the East Coast, but it does seem like they went to great pains to tell those stories. Honestly, it's interesting that Steve Buscemi is a part of this movie. He was a firefighter in New York for a number of years. And so he comes by that character more honestly than any actor comes to most characters they play. So I think that that's kind of a fascinating difference. It's even, in a way, it's even more removed from something like Girls, where there was this expectation of a kind of like trust fund girl living in Williamsburg. And gosh, she's having a hard time getting published. But in theory, if she needs to move back to Minnesota, she can, you know?

Yes. Which, you know, then became the whole conversation around Girls itself, which is a thing we can revisit, but also maybe we can all just like move past. Understandable. We can move past it. The thing that was notable to me about that, though, is that in his other movies, I think maybe because the settings are so much safer, the problems seem a little bit bigger.

And while Pete is certainly dealing with a lot, it feels like there's just kind of an ambling quality to this movie where you never really kind of get a sense of what his problem is. His problem is like his mom wants him to move out. I have a pretty clear sense of what his problem is, which is his problem is that he lost his father at a young age and he doesn't know how to deal with that. Of course. Like, I mean, like that's what it is. And they have the scene that I found pretty heartbreaking because a lot of this movie, as you mentioned,

is drawing on Pete Davidson's own life and own experiences and specifically the loss of his father at a young age. But when the Pete Davidson character rides along to watch the fire squad put out a fire and he's watching the Bill Burr character who he's had a lot of um strife with there's a lot of uh you're not my dad for the first hour to an hour and a half of this movie who can relate but um and he's he but he's watching this this complicated father figure go into a fire and the camera's just on Pete Davidson's face and, and watching Pete Davidson watch that and work through it. And I thought that that was, um, pretty moving. Um, and it, but it's also because you're watching the character work through that.

And you're also watching Pete Davidson work through some of his, um, his history in real life. So it's, you know, it's right there for the taking. Like it's pretty clear what it's about. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I think the length of the movie and the, um, it just becomes about that pretty specifically the whole time. And you could either, it's not quite enough. It's not explored quite enough to fill the two hours or it i mean it is explored but it's just kind of like here's what it is like stated pretty clearly whereas if you did have that full 10 series episode and i can't believe i'm arguing for things to be longer but um you know you could see the father-son relationship, like being kind of teased out a bit more through all three characters.

But that said, no, like I knew what it was about. Yeah, I'm not trying to be obtuse about that. I think it's more just that in the past than his movies, and maybe this is a product of just trying to make something that is more saleable, you know, where you can almost put the pitch for the movie in the tagline. But, you know, in Knocked Up, that's a movie about what starts out as an unwanted pregnancy and then figuring out how to be a family. You know, The 40-Year-Old Virgin is about a person getting over their inhibitions so they can get laid.

You know, This Is 40 is about, and frankly, funny people are both about midlife crises and how do you find a family or build a family. Trainwreck is about a failure to commit. The Pete Davidson story is much more internal. It's much more, it's like disruptive and kind of messy, but it's not clear like the problem of the movie, which I just think is not necessarily a bad thing. There are tons of great films.

Most Cassavetes movies don't have those kinds of clear plots. It's just interesting that he has now arrived in a place where he's like, I don't need to figure out, you know, a clever pitch to get this movie made. Well, and the other thing, and specifically in his movies, which you identified, they also, they all pitch not just towards resolution, but a very specific type of like family values resolution, for lack of a better word. And I don't mean to sound dismissive when I say that, but there is like a belief in the nuclear family and kind of traditional structures and kind of moving all of his characters towards that and moving all his characters towards like growing up and embracing a specific view of like responsibility and family that

inflects a lot of those movies and it does inflect it here but i think that there is a a bit more nuanced understanding of like what family is and and what relationships are that that i actually i do see as a bit of growth um just in terms of being able to accommodate more understandings of what a family unit can be. I agree. It's an interesting slow evolution, I would say, for Apatow, who, as I said, I've always been a big fan of and I think has been saddled with some unfortunate burdens that come with a lot of success. When you become the avatar for a state of comedy for 10 or 15 years as he was, you get stuck with a lot of stuff. On the other hand, he's got plenty of money and renown to keep him warm at night.

So we're talking about some ways in which this movie is different from his other movies but it is still it is still aptovian as they say in a lot of ways you mentioned that it's long it's about two hours and 17 minutes which that's that's long which is i mean it is long but it just as i said it doesn't totally fill those two hours and 17 minutes. He tends to make a lot of two to two and a half hour movies that could be 90 minutes. I was thinking about this when I revisited Trainwreck last night, which I also remembered as a two and a half hour extravaganza. It's two hours, which these days, given constraints, I'm thrilled when people hit two hours.

But it's two hours when it probably only needs to be 90 minutes to hit the beats that it wants to hit at the at the level of that it wants to hit them because traditionally he's been a pretty um he's making broad studio movies and we talk a lot about how we miss those so again I don't mean that in a pejorative way but sometimes they don't need those like three extra scenes of of stand-up or the the third time or the eighth time of someone being like you're not my dad or whatever you can get it in in four there is a really important scene about the New York Jets between um Bill Burr and Pete Davidson though we do need that scene in which uh he gets

thrown in the pool big big fan of that moment that moment. But that's the climactic scene. That's when they finally fight after like an hour of him being like, I don't, why are you here? Why are you here? And it's pretty clear why he's there. But anyway, it was a good joke. I felt bad for you. As usual, I think this is like the third or fourth joke in a mainstream comedy

at the expense of the New York Jets just in 2020. So things are going great for the Jets as usual. Yeah, I mean, it's a movie about a troubled guy with artistic ambitions who can't commit to a woman that he's clearly meant for. So it's also still a Judd Apatow movie. I mean, this is a recurring theme through a lot of his stories. He seems very interested in this, even though he seems like a happily married guy who has a family. And, you know, his family continues to work in his movies. His daughter, Maude,

is in this movie, as she has been in many of his previous films, as has his wife, Leslie, and his other daughter, Iris. And they're a family troupe, which I personally don't really have

as much of a problem with as some other people seem. If you don't understand that nepotism is a formal function of Hollywood, you don't understand Hollywood. I would say that, I mean, I understand that nepotism is one of the criticisms levied against this and nepotism definitely works in Hollywood. It is also just, he puts his family in a lot of like pretty real and often uncomfortable

situations. And, you know amanda who is repressed and afraid of all vulnerability is something like i just find myself like inching away from the tv screen sometime like i i wonder what it was like when they talked about this in therapy but you know to each his or her own in terms of how a family wants to live and work and and and process emotions about being a family yeah and and despite some of these things that feel familiar about this movie it's still it's basically a drama there's no gags there's no like you know how i know you're gay style like situational comedy

moments like that one from 40 year old virgin which is not aged terribly well there's there are no moments like that sequence in Trainwreck in which the Bill Hader character is confronted by a series of sportscasters and famous sports figures. There's no high-concept, quote-unquote, comedy in this movie. There's some funny stuff, and there's some... Pete Davidson, your mileage may vary on his comedy. I tend to like him on Saturday Night Live. I tend to be a little bit confused by him as a stand-up comedian um i think some people feel the opposite they feel that he's misused on snl because he's miscast as a sketch performer i do think though that he is there's just something where you can't look away from him there's just

he has that charisma thing i don't know if that necessarily makes him a good actor, but I think it might actually make him a movie star. You know, I would agree. I come to him less from Saturday Night Live or from his standup and more from being aware of Pete Davidson because he dated Ariana Grande for a while and was the focus of the Big Dick Energy conversation. And I thought that was an apt description and then and now, and perhaps illuminates a little bit of why he's so watchable. But so I'm interested in Pete Davidson as a presence and as a pop cultural phenomenon. And I think that this movie is definitely banking on a lot of people feeling the same way.

Do you think that they will? You know, it's so funny. Juliette Libman and I were just talking about this on, on jam session. And I think there is a generation that will, um, how that generation,

which is my way of saying people younger than us, because you know, we're old as time. And we remember the 20 years of Judd Apatow's career, which is just sad. It makes us ready to do this podcast, but otherwise we're old. So I think that there are a lot of young people who are interested in Pete Davidson. And will they pay $20 to see this movie or will they wait until they can stream it or, you know, watch it on TikTok and snippets? I don't really know. But I think they are probably still interested in Pete Davidson, yes.

He strikes me as the kind of person it'd be hard to make a supporting character in a movie because he's so tall and he's got this extraordinary face, these sunken in eyes and this big rictus grin and this giant Frankenstein head. And I'm making him sound ghoulish, but he's handsome in a very distinct way.

So I was just looking, do you remember he plays a small role in Set It Up, the Netflix romantic comedy? He's like one of the roommates and he shows up for kind of like a scene stealing moment. And he also shows up in Trainwreck for a brief moment as one of the patients. And,

you know, that, that's kind of like a, a rom-com trope, like the, the best friend or the wacky friend who comes and has like one funny scene. And then you never hear from again, but,

and he's, he's good for that. Um, but I agree that he kind of pulls the, the focus when he is in a particular scene. So having him be like the B plot would be distracting. Yeah, I agree.

Before we kind of wrap up the conversation about this movie, I think the reason to see this movie, and I would recommend it, is for all of the other people who are not Pete Davidson and Pete Davidson's character, which is not a criticism of Pete Davidson.

It's just Apatow, as he has many times in the past, has organized an incredible supporting group of people. I mentioned Buscemi, I mentioned Marissa Tomei and Bill Burr. And I did find myself thinking while I was watching the movie, why isn't the movie about these people? Why isn't the movie about Marissa Tomei potentially in a relationship with a guy who may or may not be homeless and trying to move in with her? Or this Steve Buscemi character who is this sort of wizened firefighter who's got this incredible storytelling ability and all this empathy, but also is kind of repressed in his way so he can continue to do his work. And those movies are harder to sell than the movie starring the BDE guy. But I think all three of them are so wonderful. No, they're fantastic. And kind of, again, I am a hypocrite because I'm like,

why didn't you just make this into a TV series? I should be put in a movie podcast jail. But I think I was thinking about the opportunity that you would have to explore like those characters and, you know, Marissa Tomei and Marissa Tomei's character and Pete Davidson's character have like one scene where they talk about the, the character's father or the character's husband and, and that sense of loss.

And it is a nice scene, but that is like a whole marissa tomei's relationship to that is like her character's relationship is not really explored and you know her relation their parental relationship there are some like very funny moments but um it's pretty complicated because there's loss and there's concern and you know there are some mental health issues and all of those deserve like a little more time and how it affects the other characters would be interesting. And, you know, also Marissa Tomei and Bill Burr's relationship is it's like they're one of the major romantic aspects of this movie. It gets a little fast forwarded.

And Amanda Dobbins, as a rom-com enthusiast would like to see, you know, a little more time. Give me a couple more dates. They move it together pretty quickly. They do. They do.

Well, there may be some storytelling reasons for that that I alluded to. I don't think I can overstate how shocked I was by the Bill Burr performance. Like, I'm aware of Bill Burr. I think he's funny and fine.

I had no clue he had this kind of emotional register or even this sense of timing as an actor. I was like kind of stunned. I had to Google because it was like that guy. Like I know I've seen him before, but should I know who this person is? Because this is really working and this is the really first time i'm registering

him i agree he was great and i you know they had he and rosso tomei had had great chemistry and and he and pete davidson also had kind of the great um not quite not my dad tension and and chemistry that's something that apatow has talked about too and that's one thing that he's so perceptive about as a filmmaker pete really looks up to bilber They're both stand-up comedians and they're friends and they have chemistry. And Apatow knew that when he cast Burr, even though it would seem unlikely that, you know, the Bill Burr character is pretty complex. And ultimately the movie doesn't even come down necessarily on a side for him in terms of what his motivations are through and through, which makes it such an interesting portrait. But you really need somebody that Pete feels comfortable going there with. And he does. It's

pretty shocking. I mean, in addition to those guys, you've also got Bill Powley, who is doing a lot of Staten Island. The accent is heavy. She is doing a lot of staten island and i i don't i can't really speak to the the accuracy of the staten islandness at this moment in time but i i love bell powell's general energy i'm i'm always glad to see her even if it's it's at 11 yeah she's she's a really great actor um moises arias from monos shows up in this movie as igor his his short friend who he tattoos freely which i was like blown away when somebody pointed out it was the same guy from the same nasty child soldier leader from monos incredible flex i mean the movie is kind of riddled with all of these great new york actors you got kevin corgan's in the movie and dominic lombardozzi from The Wire is in the movie.

And Pamela Adlon is very funny in a short role as Bill Burr's ex-wife. It's as usual with Apatow films. It's kind of a murderer's row of people getting anywhere from 90 seconds to four minutes to take the movie into their own hands. So again, like, you know, it's a little overlong. It's a little baggy, but it's a little over long it's a little baggy but it's a it's a good

judd judd apatow movie is it in is it worthy of the hall of fame i guess is something we should probably be asking ourselves thank you um good job let's let's let's open up the the vault here let's let's talk about judd's career so i in in this great list which starts around 1992 in his work so we're talking almost 30 years he's been making stuff which is hats off to him um i included tv shows do you think that's crazy should we not be doing tv shows in this conversation we stick to movies then if you stick to movies then you very quickly are have to have the conversation are you only doing movies that he's directed or written or are you doing because or are you including written or are you including producing right and i think you want to acknowledge kind of like the the apatow verse that he what was it called apatown is that what

wasn't that like the shorthand in the late i don't know i was reading a lot of coined it i don't know i don't think i coined it i think like a lot oforthand and the late? I don't know. I was reading a lot of like- You just coined it. I don't know. I don't think I coined it. I think like a lot of magazine profiles in the late 2000s coined it. And I was reading some of those. What an interesting time that was. But you have to include the universe of the movies. And so then if you're including the universe of the movies, it seems rude to not include the universe of the TV.

It's inconsistent almost. I agree. My, my suggestion is that we just look at everything and I, I cut a handful of things out here and there that would be considered significantly more modest contributions, but I put most of his work here and there's a specific reason that I decided to do that.

Some people are producers. Okay. Okay. No, I was going to cut you cut you i was gonna make a joke at your expense so go ahead well please please feel free i was just gonna ask was it so we could include the larry sanders show uh perhaps perhaps um amanda is making fun of me but frankly just identifying that the larry sanders show is one of the great works of art

of the 20th century it was an it was a joke born of affection and understanding. Yeah, it's a great series. I think it's more because even though he's listed as a producer on a lot of these films or TV series, he still very much has an authorial role. And unlike a lot of producers who are studio heads or people who help supply money or solve problems, Judd is on the set of

these movies. He's working in conjunction with the writers, the directors, the performers. He's pitching ideas constantly. He's a guy who got his start writing jokes for comedians at a very young age. He's a guy who got his start basically podcasting, doing interviews for his local radio station, interviewing comedians. He was so obsessed with the form and the format and the idea and how to make stuff funny that when he works on a movie, it's a little different than when you see like, I don't know, who's a big time, big wig Hollywood producer these days. Brian Grazer, for example. Brian Grazer is a quote unquote creative producer who's been working with Ron Howard for many years. Brian Grazer has ideas, but Brian Grazer doesn't sit next to Ron Howard and say, change that, change that. What if we did it this way? What if we did it that way? Ron Howard is in control of the creative aspect of

the company. Judd sits there and helps make stuff. So when he works as a producer, we're going to include him in this list. I'm going to list off a lot of stuff. We're going to have to move pretty quickly. Why don't we begin by just yay or neighing whether we think something is worthy at the outset okay okay oh wow okay now we can then go back and re-examine the work okay when we try to wow this is like a lightning round okay well we'll move at a medium pace to quote adam sandler uh 1992 to 93 the ben stiller show 13 episodes this might have been a little before your time this is this is pretty early for me um there's a very good very very funny show that lasted one season i believe it was on fox that you could make the case pioneered a form of mainstream sketch comedy but

was also ahead of its time unfortunately um it's clearly where he got a lot of his chops people like david cross and bob odenkirk worked on this show i think jeannie ruffalo worked on this show this is where ben stiller found out his tom cruise impersonation um it's a it's a pretty fun and weird show i'm inclined to say no even though it's a very formative show what do you think i'm inclined to say no if only because to make room for what's next on the list which i made fun of you for but which is that we're trying to make room for what's next on the list, which I made fun of you for, but which is that we're trying to make representative lists. And this is the one from the early TV show meta period. You know, Hank, I was just wondering why you say that. Hey, now thing. What do you mean? Well, it's just something that you used on the show. And now you're starting

using your personal life. And it's an affectation of some sort, isn't it? Did you ever say, hey, now, as a kid? No, I probably didn't. But I said, hey. Yeah. And I said, now. I mean, at different times. No, I never put them together until later in life. So, in that sense, it's part of my personality.

Agree. It's the Larry Sanders show. 76 episodes that aired on HBO starring Gary Shandling. A very, also a kind of thinly veiled portrait of who Gary Shandling could have become had he taken over The Tonight Show,

which is something that he was a guest host of the show for many years. Apatow was a writer and producer on the show and clearly learned at the feet of Shanling. He would later go on to make a documentary about Shanling's life. This was really his mentor. And Shanling is so interesting. He simultaneously has a huge sense of self, but is also constantly cutting himself down and inflating and deflating his ego all the time. I think it's like in the conversation with shows like The Sopranos and Mad Men and The Wire.

Like, I think it's that deep, that good, that smart about celebrity. This movie, this TV show started in 1993. Like, it was really smart shit. So I'm saying, yes, it's in. Instead of a comment, I was just going to ask you, I just had a very vivid flashback. Do you remember?

And it was when Mallory Rubin and I still shared an office. I don't know, Friday afternoon, you came to our office and just like talked to us about the Larry Sanders show for like two hours. It was like two hours. You wouldn't leave. And you were just like, and another thing. And we just both kind of nodded anyway. Yes. I know my audience and I know my co-host. That makes me sound like a terrible guest on the larry sanders show that's it's painful your portrayal of me through the history of this show is just very painful to me i vividly remember you were standing in the corner by one of the you didn't even sit down you were just like and one more thing and we're just kind of like nodding but it's important to

have things you're passionate about and i know you're passionate about this moving on uh 1995 heavyweights you ever see heavyweights also ben stiller movie i did a pretty funny weird movie about kids uh obese kids who go to a camp to lose weight um okay it's like a very broad sort of teen comedy that judd frequently references when talking about past failures. He actually made a reference to this movie on his episode of The Rewatchables that he appeared on about Say Anything and about how Roger Ebert was very unkind to this movie. While formative for many people, I think The Ringer's Tommy Alter is a big heavyweights guy. I don't think it's going to make the Hall of Fame. Yeah, that's enough's enough speaking of the ringer the next movie that he participates in is celtic pride which is a heist comedy about a kidnapped nba

player played by damon wayans starring i think daniel stern and dan akroyd you can see that judd is really kind of figuring his shit out you know while also working on the larry sanders show and figuring out how to be a presence in movies celtic pride is not good no offense to judd that's like this might be the worst movie that he has ever worked on. So no to Celtic Pride. 1996, The Cable Guy. I've already made allusions to it.

14-year-old Sean. This might have been a birthday party movie. Really? This is right at the height of Jim Carrey mania. Right, that I remember. His big follow-up. I think this was the film that came after Dumb and Dumber. And so there was a lot of enthusiasm and excitement about where Carrie was going.

Actually, maybe The Mask. I can't remember which of those two came first. But Ace Ventura, The Mask, and Dumb and Dumber was quite a run. It basically got deflated by the cable guy. Well, look who decided to show. You were supposed to be here four hours ago. Was I? So,

I'm the tardy one? Yeah. I was going to go to that bed and bath place, and now it's closed. Well, maybe I shouldn't have come at all. Jerk off! Which is immensely weird and fascinating and clearly written and produced by people who are obsessed with pop culture and the way that it infected them.

I think it's a beautiful, difficult film, even though it's about a cable guy. And I'm going to say for now that I think it needs to go in. Okay. Will you allow it? You're going to nix me in 20 minutes? We can revisit. How about that okay you know because i understand the importance of including like early films that shape the narrative and the work

and you know it's influential but also i i think i've seen all of the cable guy i definitely remember watching part of it and being like what is this but i also might have been too young so it's it's the push and pull between the work itself and the significance in the broader list. I feel like we're now getting to the stage when you become much more conscious of the Judd Apatow experience as a viewer. Is this fair to say? Yes, yes.

1999, we get Freaks and Geeks. I don't think you and I have ever discussed this television program. Do you care about it? I didn't watch it at the time. So I came to it later and it's been very hard to watch. And it is still kind of hard to watch. It's not on streaming services, or at least I couldn't find it.

You can borrow my DVDs. Right. There we go. Can I actually? That's rare for you. Let me see if I can pull them off the shelf right now. Hold on. You don't often lend out your DVDs.

I've got them. Oh, wow. I've got them handy right yeah oh there we go and and undeclared as well um i think i just saw this in the wave of watching all of the the teen comedies and knowing that this was one of the smarter ones and kind of in that in that wave of understanding that not everything had to be Can't Hardly Wait or, you know, the other like really kind of traditional stereotypical American teen movies. So I don't have like the, I don't own the DVDs, though I don't own nearly as many DVDs as you do. That's just a whole other episode.

My sad addiction. But I definitely vote yes for including it yeah i do too i think if we're talking about this drama comedy format that he has been refining over the years this is really the first time he does it you know the larry sanders show is wicked satire and the cable guy is farce and the ben stiller show is parody and heavyweights and celtic pride are broad comedy freaks and geeks is a very sensitive show and it's you know co-created with paul feig who obviously also went on to become a very big figure in the comedy world and the writing and direction on this show is so specific and tender and thoughtful and decent to its characters.

You know, people have spilled a lot of ink over the years about Freaks and Geeks and how it was taken from us too soon. It only lasted 18 episodes. But it's one of those rare things that I think lives up to its legend after the fact and has been hugely influential. Yeah. And also just in terms of the cast and starting a lot of careers. I mean, you have Seth Rogen, Jason Segel, James Fraco, Busy Phillips, Martin Starr, Linda Cardellini, and that's just all in the main cast.

Truly amazing. And those people, many of those people become central in that like Apatow universe, but then also those just all, those are people who have amazing careers all their own. Yeah. I mean, people don't need to take too many TV recommendations from us, but if you happen to have never seen Freaks and Geeks, this is a wonderful time to check it out. I mean, I guess the finale turns 20 pretty soon, given its run from 99 to 2000.

2001 to 2002, a kind of follow-up to that, another TV show, Undeclared. I just showed you the DVD box set of Undeclared. Perhaps less well-liked than Freaks and Geeks, though a pretty good show, more mainstream and broad and less dramedy. I believe it was a half an hour show and not an hour each episode.

Though it did discover a handful more people. Seth Rogen came back, but Jay Baruchel and perhaps most memorably, Charlie Hunnam makes his American emergence in Undeclared. Undeclared is a pretty cool show. And I think if Freaks and Geeks hadn't come along, hadn't come first, we would consider it. But I just feel like they're a bit redundant. Would you agree?

Yes, I agree. Okay, the next one's a big one. 2004. Go ahead, speak your mind. Well, no, so this is an interesting one because this is like an incredibly important comedy, but it's a little bit of can you count it entirely in the Apatow universe? And there are going to be a few things where like he definitely played a role and was a part of it, but also there are other minds. And frankly, in this particular place, a different comedic style and interested in different themes at work. And so I don't know whether putting it, you know, I want to be sure to honor the contributions of everybody else who works on these things.

So I don't think we've named the movie. It's a little film called Anchorman. It is indeed. 2004 is Anchorman, directed by Adam McKay. This is exactly what I was talking about, though, when I say that Apatow is a very involved producer because the stories from the making of that movie are legendary, where they're all on set together. They're all trying ideas. They're all throwing ideas out. And in fact, the work that was done on that movie

led to his directorial debut, which is the next thing that we'll talk about. So, you know, Anchorman is, God, is it a top 10 movie of the 21st century for me? I love it purely. And that's become kind of like a basic fuck boy opinion, but I'm fine with it. It's an amazing and rewatchable and hilarious movie. Yeah. I think the other thing is, it really is a different style of comedy. Like there are different types of jokes.

It's a lot more absurdist. They're coming to the character from a very different way. Like the resolution is very different. There isn't that like, you know, sentimental streak that I'm, I like sentimentality. I'm a sentimental person. So I don't mean that in a negative way, but it's like to put it on the Apatow Hall of Fame, not that it confuses the project, and I also don't want to undermine

Apatow's contributions to it, but it does feel slightly like of a different school. I hear that. We can leave it out. I think it's, we're going to have to choose a couple that are producorial efforts. Maybe there'll be a couple,

you know couple fairly soon going down this list, but we'll leave Anchorman out. 2005, though, we get his directorial debut, a little movie called The 40-Year-Old Virgin. No, I'm not gay. No, I've borked a lot of women in my day. You've borked?

Hold up, hold up, hold up. Yo, answer this question. Are you a virgin? Are you a virgin? Are you a virgin? Yeah, not since I was 10. It all makes sense. You're a virgin. I am.

Shut up. How does that happen? This even more so than Anchorman, I think really kicks off this period here, this 10-year period where he is kind of the defining voice. He is the key discoverer of new talent. And the movie is built around Steve Carell. And it's built around Steve Carell largely because of his experience working with him on Anchorman,

where Apatow said over and over again that what Carell was doing as Brick Tamland, the improvising he was doing and the presence he had on screen is really what blew everybody away. Everyone knew Will Ferrell was going to be funny doing essentially an extended sketch comedy. But Carell was the person who really blew everyone's wig back.

And so he built this movie around him. And this movie on paper is kind of like a weird, you know, cockeyed Hal Ashby movie. It's just when you get into watching the movie and you realize that the comedy itself is really crude and it's the crudeness colliding with the sweetness of of corral and katherine keener's character was kind of a new cocktail i was trying to think of a movie that felt similar to this and i couldn't really think of anything that had come before it what do you did you revisit this one before the pod i did i oh i revisited clips of it i vividly remember seeing this when it came out and i think this probably i you know anchorman i was aware of because i was in college and is there a more college movie than

anchorman no um but this one as well and this is kind of when i become aware of the apatow world and also i kind of think when the apatow thesis or at least the thesis for the next decade is really articulated so this is a a yes for me unambiguously same here we have to include it i would say it is not the one i like returning to the most by any stretch some of the the jokes are not great. Then or now, but in terms of the punchlines. But the Carell performance in particular and that combination of just grossness

and sweetness. Next up is more or less a sequel to Anchorman, Talladega Nights, The Ballad of Ricky Bobby, which it sounds like they basically just ran back the formulation there with just a bigger budget and a slightly higher concept. I assume we can pass on this one since we passed on Anchorman going into the hall. Yeah, I think so.

If we're going to put one of these in, it would be Anchorman. Funny movie. Sure. You know, sometimes you just need some jokes. 2007, Knocked Up. I'm naked. Yeah yeah do we have sex yes nice where you at on knocked up 2007 7 30 where was i i mean i was a young woman living in New York and I definitely saw it

and I think there are parts of this movie that are as funny as anything that Judd Apatow has put out especially

just the groups of the guys just kind of making their jokes and being weird I it's otherwise not my favorite of the movies but The guys just kind of making their jokes and being weird. It's otherwise not my favorite of the movies,

but it was extremely successful and is extremely important in the arc of Judd Apatow's career. So I'm waving my hand like this, like back and forth. Yeah, I think it would be hard to keep this movie out of the Hall of Fame. I think its afterlife is interesting. When it came out, this was an event. This movie was a phenomenon. It made $220 million at the box office. That is a lot for a comedy.

And Katherine Heigl was in the early stages of her ascendant fame. Seth Rogen had been anointed this comedy star, this unlikely comedy star. And then as you said, all of those other guys, Jonah and Jason and Martin and Jay Baruchel, that whole crew kind of come together to form this new National Lampoon style troop of dudes who show up in all of these movies. They're very, very funny in this movie. The movie does have a lot of the beats of classic rom-coms, and that's sort of why I was interested in your opinion on it, because there's a meet cute, and then things go awry, and then are they

going to work it out? It has those beats, you know? Yeah. The Katherine Heigl character is not fleshed out the way that you want it to be. And it's okay to make a rom-com about a guy and a guy's experience. And in fact, I think let's make more of them because I like the romantic comedy in any format. And it is probably true that the male character in a lot of romantic comedies about women are also not fleshed out. So I'm very aware of that. In this particular case, it's a romantic comedy about an unplanned pregnancy.

So I do really think that you got to flesh out what's going on with the woman if you're going to, like, explore what happens after that. And the movie doesn't quite do that for me. And I think, you know,

even at the time, there were pieces written about that. And I think Katherine Heigl talked about some of her reservations. And that became a whole sideshow because Katherine Heigl talked about some of her reservations and then, and that became a whole sideshow because, um, Katherine Heigl has always been, um, a very, uh, frank person in,

uh, interviews about how she feels about projects that she's worked on. And, uh, sometimes that is received well, and sometimes it's not received and not as well. So, you know, it's all pretty complicated. Um, but I do the, the scenes of all those guys together are pretty influential in terms of movies and they're they're so gross some of them are just like truly disgusting like i watched the pink guy thing and then i was like i really i can't believe that i'm watching the pink guy thing also like i went to a college like where there were multiple pink eye like outbreaks um which is just one of the grossest things that's ever happened so you went to college is what you're saying i well but no it runs rampant through colleges in america for obvious reasons sure but ours was like a cdc study for real

because no i i so i went to dartmouth and uh which is in the woods of new hampshire and when i went to college there was no cell phone service And so the way that like everyone communicated was via public computer terminals. And you would just like G chat or like AIM all the time between classes. Like that's what you would, that's how you got in touch with people. Like, where are you?

You sent them an email. So the public computer terminals were the conduit for just like a massive pink eye outbreak that did become like national news. And so that happened. And then I watched this clip and I, I feel like I need to take a shower right now. Well, that was an incredibly disgusting anecdote. Thank you for sharing it here on from me? So June 2007, Knocked Up comes out. Two months later,

this movie comes out super bad, which even though Judd was just a producer on it, I think he plays a pretty significant part in getting this film made and in what it became. And I, am I overstating things to say that this is the most beloved movie

on this list that we're going through to this day? No, and it's, I don't think you're overstating things. And this is, I vividly remember seeing this movie. I saw it at the Prospect Park theaters, I think on opening night with my then boyfriend who was just incredibly high. And I just vividly, because I like, he was losing it and I was not high and I was just like laughing at this movie, but also like,

I got to care for this 25 year old who's just like, like in public, not really doing the best that he could, which in its way was its own

Apatow experience. So very formative for me. Superbad is fantastic. In ways that like the 40 year old virgin in Knocked Up you know maybe they haven't aged that well

or there are some issues with them if I recall correctly Superbad is still a diamond I think I watched it a couple years ago and was like man I still have a very

deep affection for this I'm putting it in as a producer in part because this movie is where Judd literally empowers Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg to become filmmakers,

to write this movie, to help produce this movie. He works with Greg Mottola, the great Greg Mottola, a very underrated filmmaker, to make it. And it is one of the enduring teen comedies of the 21st century. So we're putting Superbad in. 2007, a much-liked movie that we've covered extensively at The Ringer, Walk Hard, The Dewey Cox Story. I think Judd either wrote or conceived of the story

in addition to producing it, which is a lot of work for him. Yeah, I think that's true. But do you think this is worthy of going in? It's a fun movie. It's a fun movie. And as someone who really likes music biopics, I also really enjoy just... It's just brutal.

It, it, it is so funny and how it makes fun of all of them. I think I, I believe it's on Netflix currently. So I watched like 20 minutes of it the other night. Um, it's really clever.

Again, it's one of those things where it is, it's like a slightly different type of comedy than what we traditionally associate with Apatow, which, you know, maybe we're not giving him enough credit for like a range of styles. But it's like, it reminds me more of like a Leslie Nielsen comedy

from the 90s, you know, or like a Mel Brooks movie. And that is a style and a tone that I think he's kind of capable of all of those styles. You know, he's really, he's very flexible when it comes to this stuff. So it's interesting to watch him move in different directions but i think we can safely leave it out should we forgetting sarah marshall is also a ringer favorite but i'm not sure same deal here like is it worthy of getting in i i feel like we're gonna lose a lot of young people with this one because isn't it isn't it like the everyone 30 and under is like that's the movie listen i

you're giving rewatchables producer craig horlbeck a lot of credit for representing a generation well i do like craig and craig is necessary perspective from time to time for the you know the elderly among us sure yeah i'm another brown-haired white guy to weigh in on things okay all right yeah i'm welcome to my life um but i'm okay with leaving it off even though i you know i like movies set in hawaii so there's that this one's a conundrum 2008 step brothers yeah so this is the thing where this is um a true cult classic right and and you're just like you're making a face at me it's like don't you dare

say anything mean about stepbrothers as if i'm gonna say anything mean about stepbrothers are you kidding me like i've lived in brooklyn in the time of stepbrothers coming out i know what it means to all of the young men of a certain generation and it's very funny is it can we put it under the apto column is all i'm asking i don't know we haven't we've we've passed on two previous will ferrell experiences right will ferrell adam mckay experiences so then do you want to do anchorman i don't know it's it's it's hard to say well i think we got to keep going i think we got to add step brothers as the as the the ferrell mckay entry I think we got to keep going. I think we got to add Step Brothers as the Feral McKay entry. And if we need to pull it, we'll pull it when we return, when we cycle through quickly.

Pineapple Express, another interesting movie. Let's just keep in mind quickly too here that Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Step Brothers, Pineapple Express, You Don't Mess With the Zohan, the next movie on this list, all came in 2008. And this was really when this guy was at the freaking peak of his powers. When people left and right were asking him to put their names, his name on their movies. Pineapple Express comes from David Gordon Green

and Danny McBride, who have gone on to make things like the Halloween remake or the Halloween sequel, I suppose. This is a movie famously starring James Franco. Pretty cool movie that I know has a huge cult following that I haven't returned to in a long time. I don't feel super strongly about Pineapple Express. I think a lot of people loved it as a return to the kind of like 80s action comedy, you know, sort of 48 hours, Beverly Hills cop style

movie, which I'm a fan of those films. I always thought this was like pretty funny. Yeah. I can't say that I returned to it it in a while i definitely remember watching it i think it was another also um get stoned and watch this movie type experience um which you know everybody needs that truly so i i just but i just don't have a strong connection to it but it's it's good you don't mess with the zohan i've've spoken with our pals, the Safdie brothers, about this movie. Very underrated, but I don't think worthy of the Hall of Fame. Would you agree? Have you seen this one?

No, I don't think so. I think I've probably just lumped it away with a bunch of... It's Adam Sandler, right? It's Adam Sandler. It's considered second-tier Sandler, I would say. I was going to say some of the minor Sandlers that I haven't really sought out

in the same way it doesn't change the fact that it's an insane movie about a superhuman Israeli counter-terrorist who's also a hairdresser so how's that for

how's that for high concept there you go there you go year one I think is also is sort of one of the most maligned movies that Judd

worked on in 2009 this was during this incredible flurry I think we can pass on year one. Yeah. And then later in 2009, Funny People. First, let's give thanks to our families not being here. Always easier.

Always easier without the family. It's funny. I see you guys, and you are just so much younger than me. And I had no idea I was the old guy until I looked at you guys. It was like when I was growing up. I had a big nose. I had no idea until I went to the Gap and saw a three-way mirror,

and I was like, wow. I didn't know I had that thing. Yeah, no, it's a... Which I think is his best movie. And I think it suffers from some of the classic issues that we talked about that his films suffer from in terms of length person trying to make it and a person who's made it reckoning with the fact that they weren't as good a person as they wanted to be or that they made mistakes and i just have like a big soft place in my heart for funny people yeah i do too

and it's funny when i was telling people that i was preparing for this podcast and needed to rewatch some judd apatow movies multiple people in my life were like oh you should rewatch some Jada Apatow movies. Multiple people in my life were like, oh, you should rewatch the first hour of Funny People. But that was specific. It was the first hour of Funny People. And there is a neatness to the ending and an emphasis on some of those slightly more conservative tendencies. not even conservative but just like safe right of everybody kind of learns their lesson then everything's fine and um everyone ends up where they quote like belong that to me like don't really fulfill the promise of the first hour of the movie but the first hour is like is pretty remarkable and a one of the i guess it's not underrated but a great sandler performance truly um i wonder if this is a movie that over time

it's been 11 years since it came out i wonder if it it will be rediscovered 10 years 20 years from now as one of the underrated or lost classics from a very well-known filmmaker like we see this happen all the time with filmmakers from the 40s 50s 60s 70s i could see this because it's trying to do a lot and while i agree that the ending and especially all of the eric banna stuff just like does not work at all um yeah he doesn't show up until like an hour and 45 minutes in yeah that stuff is not great but everything is sandler and roan is so good and that's funny because I don't know if you remember like one of

the bits and knocked up that is very funny is about the movie Munich and Eric Bennett in Munich and how he's like a like you know so it's like even there there is like some nice continuity

if you know these movies all start to like reference each other and there's there is a sweetness to that. But yeah, the first time it happened, really the Sandler-Rogan relationship is so lovely. And again, great chemistry.

And I think Seth Rogen is really good in this movie as well. But do you think it's undiscovered? I think there are a lot of people who are like, oh, I mean, it is Adam Sandler in it. I think the response was maybe not tepid, but probably we've just seen like much worse movies get like awards attention and it didn't really get to that place, you know? And it certainly didn't make any money.

It kind of like famously did not make its budget back. Yeah, which for Adam Sandler in 2009 is really saying something. And Judd Apatow too. I mean, you're talking about the biggest comedy movie star of his generation and the biggest comedy director of his generation teaming up for this sprawling story about comedy, which I know for you sometimes is a category that you don't like as much,

these sort of self-conscious portraits of what it's like to be a comedian. But this one felt uniquely sympathetic and interesting. I'm going to put it in for now. I'm just a big fan. I'm good with that. So we'll go quickly through the next few. In 2010, 2011, and 2012, you get Get Him to the Greek, Bridesmaids, Wanderlust, and The Five-Year Engagement.

I think only Bridesmaids is really worthy of conversation here. Would you put it in? Because I feel like it's a pretty impactful film in the for the time i i it's a very important movie it this is an interesting one because there is it like a judd apatow was very involved and there was like a very famous judd apatow contribution which is like the gross out scene when they're all in the wedding dresses or the, you know, and then intestinal issues ensue. Well put. And that was not written by Kristen Wiig.

And that was put into the movie by Judd or suggested by Judd Apatow was his idea. And, you know, that's interesting because people are really of two minds about that scene of whether it's like a movie about women having to imitate boys humor in order to be successful and or whether it's like women also like gross out jokes too um and there is also like a meta commentary of it of um it's it's a pretty funny referendum on kind of the wedding industrial complex which uh bridesmaids is is in general and one of the things i really like about that movie you know i am not like a hugely gross out humor person so i always was a little bit in camp a but i think that that is like unfair to you know the other half of the

50 of the population who likes it um and i And I can't really speak on behalf of all women and what they think is funny. And also, this movie was such a big deal in terms of its box office success and what it meant for women to be able to make comedies. And on the one hand, do you want to give Judd Apatow credit for that because it's supposed to be about women,

but also he was instrumental in it. And, you know, everybody needs help. credit for that because it's supposed to be about women but also he was instrumental in it and um and i you know everybody needs help so i think i would vote yes ultimately yeah gotta have good allies i mean 2011 is not that long ago but it also is a long time in terms of the these kinds of conversations we have about opportunities afforded to female filmmakers female screenwriters i i i understand that point of view that you're sharing. I think you could make the case that that was an attempt to provide like a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down with some slightly less evolved dudes to go to this movie. Like you needed sequences like that.

It's impossible to say whether that was the thinking behind it, whether that was even the outcome of it. It could just be the case that this was a hugely popular movie because women had not been given a movie like this to go see before. They'd never been given a mainstream ensemble, sprawling, hilarious comedy in which only female figures were in the center of the frame.

And then we've seen it kind of iterated on, like Girls Trip, obviously, a few years ago is a very similar kind of thing to this. Sure. And Bridesmaids is also a specific one where it's about a wedding. It is the type of subject matter and about a group of women that there is that old saw of you can't get guys to

go see a movie about women. And it undercuts a lot of that. So I think there are rooms for different types of interpretation. But ultimately, it was a really big deal. And part of that was because Judd Apatow helped make it a big deal. And that's important. I agree. And so because of that, and because this is the big picture and this is the first Apatow movie that got any Academy Awards attention, including a best screenplay nomination for Kristen Wiig and Annie Mumolo,

and also a best supporting actress nomination for Melissa McCarthy, which is crazy and so uncommon for movies like this to be recognized. I feel like we got to put it in. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Bridesmaids goes in. So let's just do a quick count

before we get into the back half of this decade and we'll move through that quickly as well. So right now we've got The Larry Sanders Show, Freaks and Geeks, The 40-Year-Old Virgin, Knocked Up, Superbad,

Stepbrothers, Funny People, and Bridesmaids. That's eight. So, theoretically, we only have two spots left. We'll keep going. This is 40. You have never once stopped asking us for money.

Family helps family. It's true. Family helps family. Look, I don't expect you to fully understand. Your dad left. You're broken inside. It's not your fault you can't feel love. There's something that you can't. This Is 40 is not one of my favorite Judd Apatow movies.

That's what I will say about it. I am just trying. I'm making an emoji at you. The emoji of like the, ah, um, yeah, yeah. When I was talking about being uncomfortable and like hiding from the screen and, and, you know, some of that's me and some of that's fear of getting even older than I am now. And some of that is fear of, of awkwardness and vulnerability and sharing things. Um, but which, which I have of all three, but yeah, I can't say that it's the one I hold closest to my

heart maybe we'll feel differently when we get even closer to 40 maybe we should just do a live pod on my 40th birthday where we break this movie down in real time I just that sounds horrible well now we have to do it um i love paul rudd i think i think glesley man especially in judd's movies is really effective and funny and i think that that just the mechanics of this movie and maybe just the absolute closeness to apatow is part of what holds me back from it. I think he's really good at other people's stories and injecting his point of view into those stories. And when it is something like this that is so clearly trained on him, the Paul Rudd character in Knocked Up and the Leslie Mann character, they were supporting figures. And by shifting the focus to those characters in the center of the frame, I think

we lost something. And it's hard to see yourself you know that's a that's a that's a thing for many artists i think that's true they just that you need some everyone benefits from a little bit of distance or perspective when it's the storytelling or making like a specific story um broader or to a relatable to a larger audience this is 40 goes out what about girls the tv show girls we've talked about it many times you and i in our friendship over the years um certainly one or relatable to a larger audience. This is 40 Goes Out. What about girls, the TV show girls? We've talked about it many times, you and I, in our friendship over the years. Certainly one of the most important TV shows.

I think mileage varies greatly amongst whether or not people think it's good. I've always been a fan. I have as well, though it's important to note that I am essentially the same age as Lena Dunham, and I was also a white woman living in Brooklyn, and this time. So, you know, it, it's, it's very

close. I think in terms of its TV influence and kind of, you know, it was obviously like a very, very limited sector of, um, the world that was portrayed on the show. But I think a lot of people were like, Oh, we can make shows like this about specific characters and um different slices of the world so that is useful and I mean it just in the sheer amount of attention that it got it was a big deal whether or not you like totally feel that it was deserving now how much of that and Judd Apatow was like very instrumental in that. Um, I think, you know,

Lena Dunham was obviously also very instrumental in that and became such a face and, um, voice for it as well, which is a whole other conversation. So I, it's one of those, where do you put it in his column?

I think if we put bridesmaids in his column, there's a connectivity there in terms of empowering young filmmakers and do you put it in his column? I think if we put bridesmaids in his column, there's a connectivity there in terms of empowering young filmmakers and screenwriters like Kristen and Annie and like Lena and Jenny Connor. And I feel like if we're going to do bridesmaids, then maybe- Then we can not do girls. Yeah, we can avoid over-patriarchy-ing Judd's career.

Sure. Okay, that's fine with me. Yeah, I think that's fine. Anchorman 2, if we're not putting Anchorman in, we're not putting Anchorman's career. Okay. Fair? That's fine with me. Yeah, I think that's fine. Anchorman 2, if we're not putting Anchorman in, we're not putting Anchorman 2 in. Yeah. I'm going to skip over this next one

and just go through the next few to acknowledge them but not spend too much time on them. That's 30 for 30, the Doc and Daryl episode, which, you know, Judd spoke to Bill about on Bill's show,

which is very near and dear to my heart because Doc Gooden and Daryl Strawberry are my childhood and they're these great tragic figures in Mets history. And Judd is also from Long Island, is also a Mets fan. He co-directed this movie and he got kind of a bad beat, I think, because Doc Gooden was still struggling with addiction when they were making the film and they didn't want to outright say that. But so he had to kind of work around it. And this is a film that like sports fans and baseball fans have been wanting to see for many years and it wasn't totally exactly what they wanted but

you know this doesn't go in i think just because of um the complexities of doc and daryl's life and the difficulties of making a film about it but i did want to talk about it briefly because it's an important one for me um the tv series love i think is real good um i think it's actually a little bit underrated now. I don't know if you ever watched that. I watched it. It was not... Not for you? I would not put it on the list. No, thank you. No, I wouldn't put it on the list either. I actually liked it, though. I'm a big fan of both stars of that show. It's definitely a kind of post-girls TV show. Yeah. And also a very LA show, which is part of what i liked about it but nevertheless no love may it last a portrait of the avet brothers guess what never seen it

shocking not really an avet brothers guy okay well but you're just a completist that's true uh yeah did you get a chance to catch this one i think it was on hbo no i didn't but i'm you know not as diligent as you are that would be weird if we were like, may at last, the portrait of the Ava brothers must go into the hall of fame. Uh, let's go back a couple of years to train wreck and talk about train wreck. Okay.

Um, train wreck is, feels like a real inflection point for Judd because it feels like the magic ran out on his strategy somehow. And the movie isn't bad, but it doesn't work to me. And Amy Schumer's career has gone in a fascinating direction since then. I think she's very funny. I loved her Comedy Central show.

But in a way, I felt like this movie put a huge burden on her to be like Goldie Hawn or Will Ferrell. And I felt like maybe she was a huge burden on her to be like Goldie Hawn or Will Ferrell. And I felt like maybe she was a little miscast in that role. What do you, what would you think of train wreck? Yeah. You know,

I think you make a good point was that it's, it's a movie that is both asking her to be Goldie Hawn in a rom-com and also like subvert the idea of Goldie Hawn in a rom-com and kind of and and that is what much of Amy Schumer's career did was trying to play with like the the expectations that we have of um you know a white girl of a certain age um in movies and in comedy and just kind of in life. I actually like it more than most people do, I think, which is weird. And I remember at the time, I remember everyone saying the first 30 minutes, which I think are a lot closer to her show and are kind of examining like sexual politics and dynamics and, you know, what it means to be like sexually liberated versus you

know a prude or all those sorts of things are closer to the show and what most people liked and you know they had kind of more of the outright humor and then it turns into a romantic comedy with bill hater um and and lebron james in the best friend role uh and most people were like i've liked it when it was funny. And then it became a rom-com and like, I don't really get it. I'm on record as liking rom-coms and I find Bill Hader very charming in this movie.

And, and, and they have good chemistry. And I, I honestly kind of, when I was rewatching it last night, I like Amy Schumer in kind of the throwaway lines. And just as she's introducing Bill Hader to her family and on these dates and it's like trying to figure out how to be a person in relationship.

I thought she was pretty funny. I just also find the LeBron stuff just like very funny. It just makes me laugh a lot when he's just like yelling about Cleveland and it's like I have free texting. I just think it's funny, but I, I don't think that it kind of, I agree with you that it doesn't deliver on the promise of, of Amy Schumer. And there are still weird things about it. Like, why is she yet again, another female journalist at a men's magazine? How many times have we seen that? And again, that is commenting on a rom-com trope you know it's like aware of some of the things that it's doing but it's hard to be it's it's a very

difficult to be both commentary and an example of the genre itself and i don't think it pulls both of those off simultaneously i agree with you i it feels like he was trying to make an Albert Brooks movie out of Amy Schumer's, like a version of Amy Schumer's life. And sometimes the broad aspects of the Albert Brooks comedy stuff don't work. And sometimes the more subtle stuff, I felt like the subtle stuff in Trainwreck works pretty well.

And the broad stuff for me doesn't work that well. But you can see that he kind of takes a beat here. Like this movie comes out, it was pretty successful, Train that well. But you can see that he kind of takes a beat here. Like, this movie comes out. It was pretty successful, Trainwreck. It was by no means a bomb. And five years go by before he makes another narrative feature, before he comes to the King of Staten Island as a writer or director, which is an interesting choice.

It felt like he had kind of gotten to a place where he was, like, maybe running out of things to say, or felt like he needed to use a muse to tell stories in a way. He spends time on the sports documentary, on this Avid Brothers documentary. And then in 2017, Judd produces a movie that is probably one of the best liked movies of the last five years, an Academy Award nominee for best original screenplay, talking about The Big Sick. We didn't get a chance to talk about The Big Sick on this show. This came out shortly before you and I started doing this show together. Where do you stand on The Big Sick? I'm a big fan of this movie. This was a movie I remember vividly seeing alone in a screening room and just like crying at like 4pm

on a Tuesday by myself. It's being like, I'm very moved by this. And you know, it's written by, um, Kumail Nanjiani and his wife, Emily Gordon, and is based on their, um, real life. And Kumail is like a noted rom-com fan and specifically a noted for weddings and a funeral fan. And that obviously means a lot to me. And, and you can see that in the, in the script itself that it understands and has great affection for the genre. But it's just honestly like very moving. And I think well-acted a tremendous supporting performance by Ray Romano. One of the great memes of all time, you go on the internet,

they don't like Forrest Gump. So. Great bit. Incredible bit. So, yeah, I, and this does fit in the Apatow canon in a lot of ways, right? Because it is, it's, again,

two people writing about their lives. And so it's like semi-autobiographical and is funny. And it's about comedy-autobiographical and and is funny and it's about comedy right like the Kumail character is this is a stand-up in the in the movie am I making that up he is yes he is right um and then ultimately a happy ending but kind of negotiating issues of a family and and a relationship and expectations. So it makes a lot of sense within the canon. And I just also just found it really lovely.

Is it going in the Hall of Fame? How many do we have left? I think we have two more open spots. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. The big sec. 2017 to 2019, the Pete Holmes HBO TV series Crashing. I will admit to being in the Crashing Hive. I don't know if that's a proud place to be or not. This show reminded me of what

I thought HBO shows were 10 years ago. I wish we had more shows like this, but I acknowledge that it does fit into that specific category, that 30-minute dramedy built around a stand-up comedian character that you are a little bit suspicious of. I actually didn't introduce that idea you know, maybe King of Staten Island would flourish in that format. So I don't mean to be dismissive of it. I confess I'm not a member of the Crashing Hive. It's another one that I definitely remember you talking about a lot. And again, it's important to have things to talk about and enjoy. So I'm happy for you.

Yeah, it's a hard show to go to bat for because it's just a show about another white guy comedian. And we've just spent, since Seinfeld, making shows about that nonstop. But Pete Holmes, I thought, brought a different kind of energy. And that was a show that was a lot about faith and kind of discovering yourself after your life has already been settled.

I thought it was a sweet show. And I mean, you could really feel Apatow's influence. And you could see that he was a big part of helping Pete to make that show. It only lasted a couple of seasons. But if people haven't checked it out, I would recommend that. Two more films to go through here. 2018, The Zen Diaries of Gary Shandling. Not sure if you ever checked this one out.

It's quite long. This is a four-hour documentary about the life of Gary Shandling. Is it possible when you came to our office to talk about the Larry Sanders show that you were also, you had just seen this documentary and that was kind of like you were on that journey? Okay. I'm definitely not a sociopath who walks into people's offices and without a peg begins talking about 25-year-old TV shows that I like. So just for the record, that's like, that's actually not true at all, but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Okay. I think that's probably what it was. I was, I was deep into the

Zen diaries of Gary Shandling. I love Gary Shandling. Um, I thought this was a very interesting movie. Speaking of people who are grappling with spirituality and people who are grappling with who they become after they've become what they've always wanted to be. It comes from a very heartfelt place. This was a very celebrated movie. I think this film won Best Documentary at the Emmys. It is certainly overlong insofar as something like this can be overlong. On the other hand, no one's ever going to make a documentary about Gary Shandling ever again. So I was like, fuck it. Just do all four hours. Like, what's the downside? That criticism in general to me doesn't click as well because one, as you know, I like to just sit in my house and watch movies all day.

So if it's four hours, I'll figure it out. And two, if it's a definitive portrait, it's a definitive portrait. You know, Shandling tragically died at a young age and I think is worthy of this much attention. I'm a huge fan of this movie. Don't know that it belongs in the Hall of Fame, but we can debate that, especially if we're choosing between King of Staten Island and this doc.

What do you think? Why don't we choose between neither of them and put Anchorman in? Oh, wow. I don't know. I'm just trying to make it an interesting podcast. That would make it an interesting podcast. What that would meaningfully represent, though, is that we don't put a movie that Judd has directed in since 2009.

Well, Sean, sometimes maybe we're reflecting. I don't. Are we to reflect reality or are we to reflect, you know, what we how we think a career should be shaped. Okay. So let's try this on for size. I'm going to name the 10 films slash TV shows that we've picked. Tell me if it feels right to you. You know, you walk, you walk through the vestibule, you enter this, this cavernous emotionally enlightening museum known as the Judd Apatow Hall of Fame, here's what you find. You find the Larry Sanders Show.

You find Freaks and Geeks. You find Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgundy. The 40-Year-Old Virgin. Knocked Up. Superbad. Stepbrothers. Funny People. Bridesmaids.

And The Big Sick. I guess you're right that we're missing something from the decade i don't know if it the second the third decade i should say i don't know if it necessarily needs to be a movie that he directed well we have the big sick right right right but which is more recent sure and i guess we are really emphasizing the years from 2005 to 2011 which are both his like you know his hot streak and also kind of set the table for everything else that comes for his career and many other people's careers so that all makes sense to me um you know i just if you want to make a case for zen zen diaries you can i think deciding between anchorman and the king of staten island with all respect to king of staten island which

i thought was lovely and had some great supporting performances i still think anchorman is is the movie but i agree with you i think i think we have the right 10 even though King of Staten Island I would probably make the case is his best movie since funny people through and through I don't know that it goes in and you know what if it opened in movie theaters and and hundreds of thousands of people saw it and there was box office conversation around it or maybe even in six months we might feel differently about this but today let's just say it doesn't go in and we stick with Anchorman. Are you on board with that? I feel good about that.

We've done it yet again. We've built a soaring edifice to a great artist. And what we have put in that museum is an incontrovertible truth. The 10 things that we've chosen can never be taken away from us or from this great artist. You feel a sense of pride i you know i always do i love to just say things in public that people can't argue with at all they just can't have any other opinions about it so that's at ak dobbins in case you want to share your notes on social media um this was fun uh speaking of building edifices edifici what is the what is the plural of edifice um i i think it's probably just edifices um i don't think it's

edifici i don't think we need to go that latinized for for that edifaci i like i don't actually think that's the root i mean i have to be honest i didn't pay as much enough attention in latin in college as i should have um but if you don't know i damn sure don't know uh speaking of edifices we'll be back later this week talking about our top five movies about making movies which i'm very excited to do with you amanda so looking forward to that and then in addition to that, I had a conversation with Karina Longworth, the great host, creator, writer, producer of You Must Remember This, one of the absolute best movie podcasts around. So stay tuned and we'll see you later in the week. Thanks, Amanda. Thank you.