The Big Picture - The Loss of David Lynch. Plus, Our Oscar Nomination Predictions.

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to reflect on the monumental loss of David Lynch, and try to take measure of the impact his films have made on them personally and the film culture at large (1:00). Then, they run through a number of guild nominations and assess the relative strength of the awards contenders (21:00). Finally, they review ‘Den of Thieves 2: Pantera’ and discuss its star Gerard Butler’s essential performance at the center and whether the overall movie lives up to the first in the franchise (1:08:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that travel moves us. In heaven, everything is fine. In heaven. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about David Lynch and other absurdist things in this universe. Chris Ryan is here.

Hi, Chris. What's up, guys? How are you? I'm doing great. David Lynch has died. This is is here. Hi, Chris. What's up, guys? How are you? I'm doing great. David Lynch has died. This is terrible, terrible news. I contemplated opening this show in my David Lynch voice, which is, hello, I am Sean Fantasy, host of The Big Picture, but I did not do that today

because that would be disrespectful to one of my favorite filmmakers, one of the signature filmmakers of the 20th and 21st century who has died, perhaps not surprisingly, he was 78 years old. Last year we learned that he had been diagnosed with emphysema. I had actually heard from someone in the recent days that he had gotten, had escaped the fires and that have been in Los Angeles over the last few days here. And I was very happy to hear that. And so this is very, very shocking and scary news. We've talked about Lynch a bit over the years on the show,

though he has obviously not made any films since we've been making this show. In 2022, I did do an episode with Adam Naiman where we talked about Twin Peaks Fire Walk with me and Lost Highway. And they both shared anniversaries in 22, and they'd been issued on the Criterion Collection. And so we use that as an opportunity

to talk about their work. If you want to hear a longer conversation about him, you can go back there. Amanda, you and I have not really talked about Lynch very much over the years. What is your reaction to this terrible news? I mean, first of all, it just... It feels like loss on loss on loss right now in Los Angeles.

And David Lynch, in addition to being one of the signature American filmmakers, and in many ways, like the signature interpreter of like American psychosis, was like a very Los Angeles figure and regularly did weather reports on KCRW, the public radio station. And at this moment, as you said, it just, it feels like an extra, even though he was ill, it feels like real loss. So that was my reaction. I mean, as far as his work goes, I do feel like he invented not just a visual language, but just like a new understanding of our own American psychology

and what is lurking underneath and the way we see things and the way we experience real events that have a surreal quality, because often they do, as we've learned in certain weeks. But like, lynchian is a word that comes to mind, not just to describe cinema, though obviously, like, his influence on cinema is, um, is vast. And I think, you know, some of the reason that you and I

haven't talked about him that much are that, I mean, he's a you and Naaman, uh, lodestar, and I hope you guys do, you know, many video essays or monopods or whatever, you know, in the weeks to come. Because I know that's how you process your grief and your enthusiasm. But I also, Lynch is so influential that a lot of times we talk about, we have talked about him

in terms of someone else ripping him off is ungenerous, but there are a lot of Lynchian filmmakers and people who grew up with his work trying to recreate it. And no one ever could. And I often get, I like, he was so singular and the touch and the vision and the weirdness, you know? Like the mind was so specific that anyone trying to do Lynch like always falls flat for me because it's not David Lynch. Yeah, I agree. I think it's very well put. It's, um, you know, he has come up on your show, The Watch Chris, quite a bit.

Yeah, we talked about it today on today's episode. I mean, he meant a tremendous amount to Andy. I think it was really formative. Andy's relationship to Twin Peaks really like got him started as a person who thought about television both critically and from a creative standpoint. So it was a real blow. It's a blow for me. I would say this has been a period of time where we've talked a lot about our lions in the twilight of filmmakers who are kind of in their 70s and their 80s making these capstone

films or perhaps keeping going on. And he threw a no-hitter. I think if you look at his filmography and if you look at his contributions to television, it's really hard to like find, I'm sure there are some that are rated highly, more highly than others, but every one of them has something to really think about.

There are no bad movies in his filmography. And he made an enormous contribution to cinema and to popular culture. And it's like a little bit, like you're saying, a hat on a hat for David Lynch to pass away the week of the LA fires. But we have a tremendous amount of work to treasure him by and I hope people go back to it.

Yeah, we can talk about some of that here a little bit. It's been a long time since a famous person that I did not know died and I actually felt something. And, you know, I think it's important to honor artists, especially those who work in movies on the show and they die and recommend their work and get people to understand it and why it matters or why it's just fun or worthwhile.

As you mentioned, like, he's deeply formative for me and my taste, and basically better understanding myself through art. So I find it hard to talk about sometimes because also that surreality that you're talking about, that dream state that is such a critical aspect of all of his work, is something that most people don't have language for or emotional access to and he's able to portray something that you otherwise couldn't put anywhere else. The fact though, like when I talked to Adam about it a few years ago, a thing that I kept circling back to that I think is, I don't know, I guess like meaningful to the way that we talk about things on this show is he was deeply avant-garde but but not an outsider. I mean, he's basically a mainstream artist,

starting in like roughly 1982. And he's from Montana, and he represents that kind of American ideal and then the underbelly of that ideal all the time. And so his character, his sort of public persona, the aw-shucksiness with that veneer of agitation right underneath that the appearances on David Letterman, the, um, eventually, you know, the KCRW aspect of it, the influence of

Transcendental Meditation and the way that he brought that to the mainstream in some ways, the fact that he conquered television, like deeply conquered television and more or less invented prestige television with Twin Peaks. And the fact that I think it's a good point that you're making Chris, which is that there's something kind of rock solid and compelling about every movie that he made to meet 10 feature films in his career and a lot of short films.

Many of them were failures, quote unquote. Commercial failures or critical failures upon their release. And they've all been reclaimed. It's a really good note to ourselves about like how we think about the stuff we talk about and how time is really the only judge that matters on this stuff. I think... I think when I spoke to Adam, I was saying that... Twin Peaks is probably the first thing he did that I saw,

and I could remember hearing Laura's theme in the living room when my parents were watching it or my babysitter was watching it and wandering in there and trying to make sense of it. And that, like, the abstract qualities of that show in a very familiar framework just imprint on you. And you're like, why is this different, but it looks the same? And the idea of, like, a man comes to town and he's here to solve a crime, that's the framework

of every movie and TV story for the last hundred years. But there just felt something that you could never put to words. I was just thinking about The Music Man, which Chris has been watching in 10-minute increments with my son recently. And it's... A man comes to town. There's a lot of different readings on The Music Man happening in the Barrett household right now.

I'm sure that David Lynch has seen and thought about The Music Man. There's no doubt about it. Um, and so I think that there's something interesting about using the familiar to upend our expectations that he did very, very well. Um, I remember vividly thinking about how he was offered, I think it was Return of the Jedi? And he turned it down to make Dune.

And his Dune, of course, has been the topic of some discussion because we have new Dune films now and I have never really made, I could never really make sense of the Lynch Dune and the way that it was kind of chopped up and the way that he kind of compressed the story and, but the oddity of that, the writing in that novel actually makes him like weirdly a better fit than Denis Villeneuve. The movie itself just isn't totally hanged together. But even in all the things that are sort of like don't work, and that was a lot of what we discussed with Lost Highway, which got slammed when it was released, was that the not working is sometimes the point. The sort of like, this shouldn't be exactly what you want it to be or expect it to be. It's what it has to be, which is an impulse I really always respond to.

There's a bunch of behind the scenes footage from the making of Twin Peaks The Return. That is just amazing to watch him work. You know, he's essentially trying to get all this stuff that he's got left over inside of him out, right? But the things that he's concerned about are like, how black is the black?

So he's like painted, you know, this sound stage they're shooting. I think that big takeout episode where the um... Number eight. Yeah, number eight. And he's like obsessing over the tone of the black paint that's on the wall and how that's going to be conveyed and whether it's too black or starlight would illuminate it at all. So we need to bring it up a little bit. And watching his mind work in that way and watching him sort of be the kind of person who cares about how black black is,

is like, I don't know how many people out there still do that, or how many people ever were that laser-focused on the way that images could make people feel. And it's, if you get a chance to look at any of the Twin Peaks, the Returns stuff, you can see him at work in a way that's really magical. I'm about to groan at myself because we use this term so much, but he was like a true artist in the, in...

He was a fine artist. He was a fine artist and he was just like a very... one of one mind interpreting the world visually and ideologically in ways that everyone else take from and reframing it for all of us. And so, and a lot of that is visual, but it's like, we call a lot of people artists who are creative and who make things, and that's awesome.

I mean, I'm not an artist, but like, it's... It... What a brain. Yeah. No, I think... And the combination of the high and low. It's like, it was like, to be able to like, interpret dreams and visualize them, and then also be like, I like donuts and the radio, you know, and cigarettes and coffee.

Like, it was both the pop and the culture part. Yeah, it was about living in the real world. It's just the way that it manifests sometimes doesn't seem necessarily practical. I think to what you're, to the point that you're making, he was literally a painter and musician. He wasn't just a guy who told people what to do on a film set. He was someone who was desperately trying to get out whatever was in his head and manifest multiple ways.

And you know, big time collaborator, somebody who worked with his composer, Angela Badalmenti many times, worked with Laura Dern many times, worked with Kyle McLaughlin many times, like was always kind of recurring with figures, was always trying to find these, I don't know, these like conveyors of his ideas and his imagery

and his sensibility. like conveyors of his ideas and his imagery and his sensibility. But he's a... I still don't totally feel like I understand all of his work. Like there's something kind of exciting about that that... I spend a lot of time on the show being like, this is what this means and having a certitude about it and like constantly circling that theme and intention. Yeah, I know. I know.

And there were definitely times when I was watching that series where you could simultaneously be like, this is a masterpiece and I don't understand what's going on right now. And that is actually what people who don't like critics think critics do all the time, you know, that they sort of like are quick to make proclamations about things without fully investigating their relationship to them. But there's like Inland Empire is impossibly hard to watch.

And ugly and annoying. Yes, I mean, that's the thing. And also deep, like, if there's a movie about the LA fires that exist, it's kind of Inland Empire, you know what I mean? Like, the idea of, like, accessing the difficulty of tragedy and our lack of control in the universe, that's a movie that does it, you know? It doesn't always mean it's as fun as Top Gun Maverick, you know what I mean?

Like it's just a totally different thing, but they operate inside of the same medium. So we feel the need to kind of lump them together and they should be lumped together, you know? Like Lynch was in many ways like a mainstream artist. So I like that he is part of both, that he can exist in both worlds very comfortably for us or he could have.

And the other thing in addition to being an artist is like he's clearly like a spiritual person, not a religious person, but a spiritual person and somebody who thought about the world. You know, there's the tweet where he's like, I feel we're like, I am connected to the moon going around right now that he tweeted in like 2010. And that way, I don't think he's doing a bit, you know?

Like he was legitimately thinking about his relationship to the moon. I mean, we all are, but, you know. Like, some of us more than others, but that's fine. That's a thing, though. I mean, I think his persona predates online influencers, but he's, like, on to something, you know? He kind of had a knack for knowing how to develop a cult around himself, too. Should we have a hot cup of black coffee in his honor after this?

I feel like a fraud drinking herbal tea right now. I know. Like this isn't what he would have wanted. We're just trying to get through a podcast with our voices and be able to talk about him. It's okay. I'll smoke a cigarette with you today if you want. Okay.

In his honor. Do you guys have a favorite thing of his that you'd like to cite? I think Twin Peaks is my favorite thing by him. Yeah, Twin Peaks and the Return. It's kind of invented, like you said, invents the next 30 years of prestige television and a tour television and then shatters everything

about it with The Return. Yeah. And The Return is like a really perfectly, it's a perfect example of like what you're talking about with Inland 2 where it's like challenging, dull, weird, like you're talking about with Inland 2, where it's like challenging, dull, weird. Like you're waiting for something to emerge that feels like a plot, you know?

And, or you're like, I can't believe this is about like a dumb version of Dale, you know, or whatever you're watching. And... There's stuff in The Return where you're like, who is this character being played by this tremendously famous actor that showed up in episode 13?

Like, he just, like, did not care about the conventions of expectation when you were watching something like that. It's pretty crazy. Twin Peaks is hard to go back to because it's just so much. Was it a time when there were so many episodes of shows? So wrapping my head around, like, I'll definitely, I have 60 hours to watch this. I've never done all of it. I've seen some of it, but I was too young even to dip in with the babysitter, which you also talked about on that David Lynch episode with Adam Naiman, and rad babysitter is all I had to say.

Yeah, I remember her well. Karen. I didn't have a rad babysitter. I don't know if my parents watched it. So Mulholland Drive was my first and also, given Amanda's set of interests, like my favorite by far. And I think I saw it probably pretty close to its release because it was in the Oscar conversation, you know, which is to our point about like the mainstream and like straddling both worlds. Like it was accessible to 17-year-old me.

And it was like something I knew about. And I was like, huh, I guess that I should check that out. Even as I'm also like learning about old Hollywood and learning about like what noir is. And so, you know, coming to a genre and the exploration and the upending of the genre at the same time, it was like extremely formative and being like, oh, there are different ways to look at these things and different ways to express them.

And things can be really weird and also cool. Yeah. Have you guys seen Naomi Watts' David Lynch impression? That video where she did one of those like straight to camera New York Times interviews, I think pretty recently. And she was like, David Lynch once told me, we can all coexist. Naomi, anyone who sits in the palm of King Kong is a movie star for life. That's such a good impression.

I'm getting carphrasing. Well, that was one of the big jobs that she got in the aftermath of Mulholland Drive. We skipped over your babysitter being named Karen. She is named Karen. Is she telling you a lot? No, she over your babysitter being named Karen. She is named Karen. Is she telling you a lot? No, she was a cool Karen, trust me. This was well before Karen came to be known as an unfriendly germ in this country.

I think I probably talked about how in my adulthood, Twin Peaks Fire Walk with me is the movie that I feel is like the biggest achievement. Because it's the most... It's the biggest rejection and re-examination of the big thing that he did. And it's like, it really just makes you... Similar to Inland Empire, it makes you just sit in the pain and terror of someone's life being destroyed and then watching it end. And then giving it like a very...

A little bit of redemption. Like, a little bit of redemption, like just a little bit of redemption. Um, and him like almost like looking at the marketing of Twin Peaks and being like, it's not just that this is a dead body, like this was a person and think about what that means to be a person. So that's a movie that has impacted me a lot. And then this is true of many a man in America, but when you have a child and you watch Eraserhead, after having a child, you're like,

oh, this is about having a baby. Like, I didn't realize that this is about having a baby. Like, obviously the character, there is a baby in Eraserhead, but you're like, the actual mind state, the fugue state that you enter when you have a child. Yeah. Maybe you should watch Er Razorhead tonight. No, I mean, this is the thing, is that I deal with that

very differently than you do. But yeah, I mean, I guess it's about having a baby. And they're all these, like, gnarled mutant creatures, you know, and you're hearing these sounds from the universe and you just feel completely haunted all the time. Yeah, you're the sounds from the universe for me. Yeah, what an amazing artist. God, I loved him so much. Uh, if you haven't seen the work of David Lynch,

listeners at home should absolutely explore them. I think many of those films are on the Criterion channel right now. Um, most of them are widely available. There's also a lot of short films that are available. I think there's a few short films on Netflix right now. I just came across something recently. I mean, I think I don't know how I like blocked this out, but I want to try and find On the

Air, which is the show he made in 92 that he made with Mark Frost. He directed one episode, but it's basically about like a 1950s radio station. That's more like a sitcom, right? Is it? Okay. He did two TV shows in the 90s that weren't Twin Peaks. Yeah. Hotel Room.

Hotel. Yeah. I feel like On the Air is like more of a 30-minute episodic TV show. Okay. His autobiography was written with Christine McKenna. It's called Room to Dream from 2018. Sort of an autobiography. Some huge swaths of autobiography, and then there's always a kind of philosophical meditation

going on in a lot of his work. Any final thoughts on David Lynch? I think you should do a syllabus or something. I mean there's an obvious syllabus of the feature films but you know, do something else. I gotta figure something out. I don't know what it would be. I mean you know, he is pored over. That's the one thing about him is he is the avant-garde, avant-garde auteur who cracked through in America. maybe more so than anyone. Can you think of another figure who worked in such strange, beautiful ways,

but who wasn't... never took a job. Not with the level of his notoriety. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, um... I had to transition from this into the Daredevil trailer on the watch. Ha ha! So I throw the hammer.

From the sublime to the absurd is how it should be. Who's in Daredevil? Bernthal. That's what we were talking about. Oh, is he Daredevil? He plays the Punisher. Oh. Okay. Who's Daredevil? You've encountered Daredevil before. Matt Murdock. He's a lawyer.

What film did he show up in recently? Spider-Man. He's Spider-Man's lawyer. He's blind. Right. And I remember that because you turned to me and you were like, that's Daredevil. Um... It's so cool to go to the movies with me. Ben Affleck also played Daredevil. He did.

And then you're like, this is about having a baby. Spider-Man is about having a baby. Well... Well, is it not? I mean, I'm gonna drop both of my babies off at your house. And then you can deal. Uh, let's talk about awards season. I've, I've, we've asked Chris to join us here as we make predictions.

There's so many precursors to talk about because of the fires. Many, much of this news was pushed back. And I think all of it is here now. I think we've now gotten BAFTA, WGA, the Cinematographers Guild, and PGA's. Oscar announcement is next Thursday, the 23rd, for the nominations. At 5 a.m.

Did I just make eye contact with you every single... Listen, the way the mic is positioned, you're part of a big water bottle now. It's like an ancient viking's stein glass, but for water. That's what she's drinking out glass. Yeah. But for water. That's what she's drinking out of. Hold it. Hold it.

Like, just check out the ergonomics. That's pretty good, right? Is that heavy? It's full, so I guess. I mean, it's a water bottle. Can you hold it out in front of you for two minutes? I had a question for you guys. Maybe you can help.

Maybe this would be a useful way of doing this conversation. I know you want to get into the nitty gritty of these nominations and we're on a clock, but as someone who is interested, but not following the precursors, like, religiously, what's, like, three headlines I need to know? Like, where is the race right now? You gotta see Amelia Perez. I watched half of it.

Well, you should probably watch the other half. Okay. I mean... I sent Amanda a sort of panicked text yesterday. Yesterday or two days ago. Was it like 7AM? It was like, Amelia Perez is happening. And this is just like having a baby.

Like, Amelia Perez is happening. And... I don't hate Amelia Perez. I'm gonna start by saying that. I don't hate it. I've seen it twice now. I think it's hugely flawed and kind of annoying, but there are things about it I do enjoy. But it would be one of the worst best picture winners of all time. There's no question about it.

And it has strong, I'll tell you what I'm feeling right now, very acutely, is... Crash over Brokeback Mountain, Green Book over Roma. That to me will be... We're so back. ...Emilia Perez over The Brutalist or over Enora, depending on, you know, your mileage may vary on those two. Well, we may look back on it in a similar fashion if that happens.

So that to me feels like the kind of emerging headline out of all of these guild nominations. Do you agree with that? Yes, I do. Okay. So, that's a lot. Even though I haven't seen the Brutalist yet, but. Well, other things came up.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it would. I re-bought tickets today. But the Brutalist is surging. Would you say the Brutalist is? I'm getting a lot of, I mentioned this earlier this week, I'm getting a lot of the opposite from people I know

who are like, it's the Brutalist. It's gonna be the Brutalist, buckle up. This is happening, for sure. Both voters and people who are in the business have said that to me this week. Okay. So I, and maybe I'm in a little bit of like protect myself mode because I think it'd be really cool. A movie like The Brutalist has not won best picture in a very long time. An independently financed big movie. Usually those movies are like Oppenheimer and they have a huge campaign behind them and they have old-school studio stuff and a memorable filmmaker. You know to me it's like if you the last time something like that

happened was probably 12 Years a Slave which was a studio movie but felt like you know an auteur with a really strong difficult story that is like a film that is hard to watch at times. Since then, there hasn't been a lot of that, and it's not the kind of thing that the Academy usually does. They don't like something that makes you feel like absolute fucking garbage at the end of it. And... Well, Oppenheimer.

Parasite. I wouldn't... I don't think Oppenheimer necessarily does that. I think it does have a down note, like a kind of like doom-like note at the end of it. But I don't think it makes you feel like garbage. Parasite, I think people have... Uh, it feels a little misunderstood. I think it's a little misunderstood. Yeah, okay.

In my, I'm just, we're talking about 10,000 people. Yeah, sure, yeah. But I think that people saw the sagwin for the Parasite ensemble and how cool it was, how happy all those people were. And they were like, that's great, let's vote for those guys. And they weren't like, this is a deep examination of class and the violence that it imbues inside of us. Okay. So you're seeing it sort of start to crystallize

of Amelia Perez versus Brutalist. The Brutalist. And I think Anora and Conclave are kind of in third and fourth place, basically. Okay. But I agree with Sean, except to say that just Emilia Perez kind of is everywhere, and the below the line, and just like the sheer number of nominations and critics, you know, it's sort of relentless. So I agree that there is a lot of respect for the brutalists

and all the brutal boys are texting Sean all the time. And that's beautiful. And what a community you guys have. Thank you to them. Boys and girls. Uh-huh. But, uh, Emilia Perri, it's just like in every single guilt. If you were a Bentley. In every single, I just, and, you have to remember the International Academy.

So, the Jacques Audrillard apologizing thing, is that gonna be... I don't think anybody's gonna care. You mean just him noting that they didn't actually have enough Mexican representation and enough point of view from Mexican people? I'm like, sorry if anybody was offended. It's an opera. It's a fantasy.

And, you know, it's supposed to be reality. I think it's, I think that particular criticism is very valid, especially if you're a Mexican filmmaker or film artist. But I also don't think it's like the only way to understand why the movie doesn't work. It has problems. I think the trans criticisms, which are complicated,

but in short, the idea that there is something sublimated in a person and that they need to be violent and criminal until they become their true self is a very bad and ugly metaphor that is very regressive. And I cited that when we talked about the movie months ago, and it's very weird the way that the movie tries to complicate the character and actually makes the character seem more simple, the Amelia Perez character. So it's one of those things where like 20 years from now, if a movie like this one's

the best picture, we're going to be like... And our understanding of gender and emotional point of view changes over time, it's gonna look really, really bad. Um, I think... Was it an incredibly weird year for gender at the movies? And especially at the Academy Awards? Did you get involved in any of the Enora criteria and cover art discussion on Twitter yesterday? Or people were like, this cover is too sexy sexy." -"Believe it or not."

And the tagline was like, "'Bring her home.'" And it implied that you could like, bring the sex worker home, you know, if you buy the Blu-ray. Oh. We're in a dystopian state. Yeah, we're in a dystopian state. Okay, so those are good... Amelia Perez had ten nominations at BAFTA. I can sound smart tonight

when I go out and hang out with all my friends. Right. Yeah, yeah. Who are those friends? Are they not here at the table with you? They're all guys who don't watch movies and are involved in the Oscar race. I see. Very cool. They are just in hardcore bands? How far in Amelia Perez did you make it? Like six songs in.

Okay, so what was the last song? I don't know. Okay. She did the first one where she's just like, I'm writing my brief. I'm a lawyer and then all the people join in. I mean that's another just under discussed. She dropped her credit card but went to Bangkok. And then there's like some other stuff.

I watched her watching it right after the Globes. And then I was like, I think I'm good. Yeah. But I will complete my assignment if necessary, you know? Solo Emilia Perez pod? I'll host it on this feed if you'd like. Would you be interested? I think that would go well.

Okay, but that was just one storyline. That's just one storyline. Okay, Demi Moore is winning. Yeah. Okay, that's two. Can I pitch one at you that we haven't talked about? Yeah. Jamie Lee Curtis is not only happening,

but is like threatening to win Best Supporting Actress right now. How? She's not gonna win. She's not gonna win. She's not gonna win. I agree, she's not gonna win. Because she's like fundraising for the Palisades or like why? She's just campaigning so hard for the last showgirl.

Why? And that like works. And it worked. She got nominated at the Golden Globes. She got nominated at SAG. It worked, but she won an Oscar for whatever the hell that was. Wouldn't that almost be like a bummer where it's like, you're gonna win when Pam Anderson, Pamela Anderson is like the...

That's the whole point. It happens all the time. You think Shipka's gonna get nominated? For which performance? In Last Showgirl, right? Isn't she in it? She is in it, yeah. Have you seen it? No. Can you see it? Where is it?

How often do you update Kiernan Shipka's IMDB per day? I think what she's doing is great. I just want to say that. I don't know. Like honestly, it's just been a delight. I think she should be nominated for twisters. Me too. Oh yeah. Me too.

You do? Okay, great. You didn't like the foam twisters so you don't get to hand out nominations. There's no rules? There's no rules anymore? Jamie Lee is nominated at BAFTA. That was one where I was like, hmm. And Psych Wars.

BAFTA said Golden Globes, that's a lot. We'll get into that when we talk about our nominees. Was she nominated at Golden Globes? No. Oh no, she wasn't. Only Pamela Anderson was. You're right, you're right. But I guess the wave is happening in the same way

that the wave is happening for the brutalist, this sort of like late game wave. I'll throw another one at you. Hugh Grant. Heretic. Nominated at BAFTA. Nom one at you. Okay. Hugh Grant. Heretic? Nominated at BAFTA. Yeah, but he's... Nominated at the Globes.

Yeah, but listen, two categories at the Globes and the BAFTAs are British. There's a softness in Best Actor right now for Daniel Craig's campaign. Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't know if it's going to go to... You want to do our things? No, not yet, not yet. Oh, okay, sorry. The number 10 spot in Best Picture is Wonky.

Not Wonka, though. That's the important part. Not Wonka. That's a 2023 feature that was not nominated for Best Picture. Have you had to watch that at my house yet? No. Okay. The PGA sent out their top 10. Can they release Paddington in Peru already? I need someplace to take my child.

I think it's February 14th. It is Valentine's Day, which is not what I'm trying to do on Valentine's Day. I'm trying to let my child see Paddington in Peru this weekend, if anyone can help me. Thank you. I think if you live in England, it's available to see. Well, sometimes I wish I did. Maybe you can get a VPN and you can get it streamed. I could probably get Tori.

You're going to torrent it? Yeah. Just so we got that on the record. The PGA nominations, these are the 10 movies. This is important because this is an extremely predictive body. Yeah. Anora, The Brutalist, A Complete Unknown,

Conclave, Dune, Part Two, Emilia Perez, A Real Pain, September Five, The Substance, and Wicked. Yeah. Now, to me, here's what I think happened here. Yes. One, A Real Pain is locked in at nine. Yeah, agree. The Substance is locked in at eight.

I agree. Really? I think so. I agree, yes. Which I never in a million years would have guessed six weeks ago that the substance would get locked in at this stage of the race, but it does feel that way.

Okay, what dropped out? Quite a few things. Most notably Sing Sing and Nickel Boys now seem to be on the outside. You agree? Yes, somewhat. So one of those movies, or September Um, yes. So, one of those movies or September 5th, or I have one other theory.

Okay, go ahead. There's a world where Nosferatu gets a Nightmare Alley style What the Fuck Best Picture nomination. I like it. It's not out of the realm of possibility. I made a list this morning, notes app, movies to see, and I forgot to put Nosferatu on there. Okay. It's not out of the realm of possibility. I made a list this morning. Notes app, movies to see, and I forgot to put Nosferatu on there.

Okay. Nosferatu has been a huge commercial success. Huge commercial success. Probably bigger than they anticipated. I think Eggers has officially ascended to... This is a very important American filmmaker status. We knew that. I knew that when he avenged his father in the Northland.

That's right. And Nightmare Alley, one of, let's see our favorite of course, had a similar path where it was extremely strong, extremely strong in a few below the line categories and then came out of nowhere and got a Best Picture nomination. I don't think, I don't think think Nimer Ali had a single Best Picture recognition in any precursors. But it did have a place. So there is priors for something coming out of nowhere. And a similar kind of movie, right?

Beautifully mounted movie, a movie that's a remake of a classic, a movie that is just steeped in craft. And a movie that isn't international, but kind of feels international. So I'm not predicting, I don't think Nosferatu at 10. But Nickel Boys, Sing Sing and September 5 seem weak. And... I think that's true. Here's my explanation for September 5 at the PGA's.

That is a film about producers. It's very true. It is quite literally a film about people in a room being like, what are we going to do? And here is our plate. It's a great take. I want to, Oscars, just keep an eye on it. Nine days out from Timothee Chalamet pulling Double Duty on Saturday Night Live, where he will be hosting

and is the musical guest. And I am here to tell you that if he duets with the actual Bob Dylan on SNL that night, he will win Best Actor. Well, I think that he's going to win anyway, but also, like, how, where and how is Bob Dylan on SNL that night. He will win Best Actor. Well, I think that he's going to win anyway. But also, like, how... where and how is Bob Dylan? Right now? Uh, he's on TikTok. He signed up for TikTok.

Did he? I haven't checked that. Just two days before it closes for good. That's a perfectly Dylan move. I love that. Do you think TikTok is actually gonna go away? No, that guy's going to the inauguration. The guy who owns TikTok. The CEO of ByteDance? Yeah.

Okay. Oh, okay. Just keep an eye on that. Should we make this a breakout and post it on TikTok? I just want to put a circle around. Listen, I just want to circle up some news about who's not going to the inauguration and a Friday announcement. And that's all I'll say. Google it. You can figure it out.

I always say, I don't understand what you're saying. There's someone who's not going to the inauguration. Oh, we know that, yeah. Yeah, and it's sad. I literally have no idea what you guys are talking about. Chalamet. My other note was, A Complete Unknown is way stronger than I realized. Yeah, it's a good movie. Open your heart.

Well, it's got nothing to do with that. The thing is, is like... It's got a little bit to do with that. I think if you take out Emilia Perez, pretty solid slate. Not the best ever slate of Best Picture nominees, but a lot of interesting movies. Nothing that like really, really, really goes to that forever place for me, but it's a solid collection of movies.

A complete unknown, also commercially successful. It's okay. It's an okay list. Okay. What don't you like? I'm not gonna go that far. I think- I mean, I don't like Wicked, obviously.

Yeah, like we've got, we've got like- Wicked and Amelia Perez are my least favorite of the contenders. Six more weeks to talk about this and to let our feelings known bit by bit. Is that your strategy usually? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Parcel it out.

Mystery box podcasting. What's your favorite of the nominated films? Civil War is not going to be nominated for Best Picture, Chris. Anora. Yeah, that's right. Did you notice that Alex Garland did receive a WGA nomination? Why don't you just... Touchdown!

Why don't you just read the list of ineligible titles for the WGA? Well, there are quite a few, Amanda. Thanks for teaming that up. Oh, you're saying by process of elimination, they had to give Alex Garland a nomination? Let me just share with you the list of films. Why weren't these not eligible? Because of the various rules that the guild has around eligibility. And there are quite a few W.J. This always happens.

There's usually two or three notable movies that don't... Like Tarantino can't get it. Precisely, not a member of the guild. Uh, these are the films. Conclave, Emilia Perez, I'm Still Here, The Room Next Door, Sing Sing, The Wild Robot, All We Imagine Is Light, The Brutalist, Dee Dee, A Different Man, Hard Truths, His Three Daughters, I Saw the TV Glow,

The Seed of the Sacred Fig, September 5, a different man, hard truths, his three daughters, I saw the TV glow, the seed of the sacred fig, September 5, and the substance. So those can't be nominated. None of those were eligible for either WGA. So then here comes your man, Alex Carlin. Your number one boy. It's okay. You love Emerald Finale too, you know, you're just, you're in the mix. You know, you like to see some stuff on the big screen.

I like big ideas and big feelings. Yeah, you do. How do you feel about the Wuthering Heights adaptation? I'm into it. No, you're not. Let me just let me help you right now. You're not. I don't know. Salford was good. We're still talking about it. Yeah, you are. She's still in your head.

That's true. That's true. Yeah. A true termite filmmaker. Original screenplay nominees were A Real Pain, Enora, Challenger, Civil War, and Mild Ass from the WGA. Okay. Did you see Mild Ass? I did. Oh, sorry, you weren't asking me. Hey, dear man, did you see Mild Ass from female filmmaker, Megan Park? You haven't seen that one yet.

No, it's on the list. I had to go to a matinee of Dead of Thieves Part II, Pantera last night. If you talk about how all movies are about having a child and then, like, only Amanda can comment on my old ass, like, what am I allowed to talk about? Civil War and Den of Thieves... We're getting to Pantera, bro. Settle down.

But Big Nick has kids. You know? It's really about fathers who are not in the film. Eraserhead, Den of Thieves II, Pantera, double feature. Who fathers who are not in the film. Eraserhead Den of Thieves 2 Pantera double feature, who says no, not a single person. Adapted screenplay nominees from WGA. Complete Unknown, Dune Part II, Hitman, Nickel Boys, and Wicked. Wicked, eh? Interesting. WGA is not very predictive these days because of all of these rules.

The Cinematography Guild is interesting to me. The Brutalist, Complete Unknown, Conclave, Dune Part II, Maria, Nosferatu, and Wicked. Yeah, this is, I think, literally the only guild that doesn't have Amelia Perez in its nominations. Which seems fine based on Amelia Perez, which to be fair, I watched on my television screen. You could see a world where Maria and Nosferatu get in at the Oscars in that category and not Amelia Perez.

I could see that. Okay. Seems plausible, especially Jared Blaschke previously nominated, Ed Lachman previously nominated. So there's a lot of admiration in those. Those are starting to be the best gilts. No, I will not be seeing Maria. Reallys. No. I will not be seeing Maria. Really nice apartment.

You will not be seeing Maria. I don't believe so, no. At a really nice apartment? Is that what you said? Yeah, that they recreate her Paris apartment. It's really nice. Is it nicer than... Listen, I see achievement everywhere.

Than Amy Brenneman's apartment in Heath. You know? Yes. Well, maybe more my taste. Yeah. Mm, I'm trying to order some other meaningful takeaways from these awards. Not too many. I think we hit all the big topics, right?

Yeah. One thing that I noticed that the PGA is doing is outstanding producer of televised or streamed motion picture. So these are just movies that go straight to studio. One thing that you noticed as a member of the PGA? Well, I mean, I voted on the award, obviously, but carry on the greatest night in pop, The Killer, which is John Woo's American remake of The Killer,

not the David Fincher film. Rebel Ridge and Unfrosted are the nominees in that category. Okay. This is dystopian. I feel like I just took eight helium hits. This is buddies voting for buddies, you know? Why do we need this award? What is it for?

You speak. It's like if Rebel Ridge is good. I'm not on the board of directors that the producers killed. I mean, they obviously created it because they want to acknowledge more titles, and there's... but it actually indicates that there is a meaningful difference in producing a film for streaming.

And that's kind of weird. That is... that puts like, it puts words to something that we have sort of felt in the culture in the last few years where this sort of like, there is a difference between a streaming movie and a theatrically released movie. And the like Rebel Ridge and The Greatest Night in Pop have nothing to do with each other. And the way that they were made have nothing to do with each other. One is an archival documentary with talking heads. The other is an action movie.

Right. So good. I watched it. You guys kept talking about it. Yeah, it's good. Did you watch carry on? Not yet. I mean, again, it's I'm still playing catch up.

I don't know if that's one that you need to like prioritize. It's not on the top of the list. Okay. Yeah. I want a super cut of all the Bateman scenes so I can run those before every pod. Just to get fired up. JCS has got another one for us? He does. The woman in the yard.

Damn. Honestly, great trailer. And it just like, you know what you can just tell is like a real director made this just from looking at a trailer? Like not some guy that they found on the street. I'm like, JCS. He knows how to frame a shot, man.

Yeah. He knows how to make an image. Enjoy that trailer. Uh, what do you think is going to win in this category? In this streaming thing? Yeah. Carry On. I don't know. Carry On?

So they fucking nominated unfrosted. Like, I mean, what are we talking about? You know, we directed that. Jerry Seinfeld. Yeah. So like, but isn't it, Carry On's the most popular thing here? I could just... That's true.

It is. Although Rebel Ridge was very popular as well. But Carry On's much more popular than Rebel Ridge. Carry On's the shit. Is it going to be the most popular Netflix movie of all time? It seems like it's on its way, right? How do you feel about the film Don't Look Up? Um, well, I'll tell you, Sean, it's hard to comment.

Uh, I... Back in the news. Yeah, I've noticed that it's back in the news. Oh, because they predicted stuff and the producers are growing? I think some of the producers of the film have been... Some chest-teating. ...taken a victory lap. I don't think it's the right time to do that.

Yeah, I think everyone involved with Don't Look Up should have their access to the internet cut off. Because that after... Timothy Chalamet? Fascism... He was involved. Okay, you know who I mean. Leonardo DiCaprio? to the internet cutoff because that after... Timothy Chalamet? Fascism... He was involved. I'm... Okay. You know who I mean.

Leonardo DiCaprio? You know who I mean. Cate Blanchett? And you know what I'm talking about. Well, but that's my... The reason I bring that movie up is because I'm like, that is... Certainly there are producers that are beating their chest

about the world news and the climate, but the most famous actors in all of Hollywood were in that movie. Yeah. Tyler Perry's in that movie. He's good. He is very funny. Listen, when Tyler Perry shows up in a movie, you know it's going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. Real like Gone Girl. Yeah. And there's another one where he's like a fixer and someone who is it?

What was it? He's Alex Cross in a movie, right? It's not the idea. I guess so. The James Patterson character. Did he ever play Alex Cross? I feel like he did. Maybe I'm misremembering something. Maybe he was up for Alex Cross. Okay, I think that that's most of the precursor conversation that needs to be had. Yeah, he was Alex Cross

in the movie Alex Cross. There you go. In 2012. How fitting. He did not direct that movie. No, Rob Cohen directed that. Oh, Rob Cohen. He have triple X fame?

Have you seen Triple X? Yeah, of course I have. Where are you at on on Vin these days? I don't really think I've liked a Vin since... Man Apart? No, I was gonna say the one where he's blind on a planet. Pitch Black? Yeah, those are cool.

You haven't liked a Vin movie since Pitch Black? That was like 2001. Wow, tough. What about Find Me Guilty, the Sidney Lumet film? That's all right. It's not, he's not that great. I stand with you in the Fast series is bad. Yeah.

Ben, you're pro. You love Ben. Listen, Fast Five, they take the vault. I liked it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. This is a great segue. It is, but we're not there yet.

We're not there yet. We got some predictions. Let us do some predictions. You want to make predictions? No. I think that people come to this podcast for expertise. I assure you they do not. You two have the tea, you have the leaves. We're going to... We'll predict the top eight categories, the acting awards, picture director, screenplay.

Just what will be nominated come next Thursday. Sound good? Yes. And in addition to that, we'll do a hope and four. We'll do a, it'd be great if, it'd be cool if this happened. I almost texted you, but I'm just bringing this to you on the podcast now. You also have to take a nomination away.

Oh, great. When you do a hope and four. Love it, love it. Thank you. Yeah. Great. Let's start at the bottom. Let's start with screenplay. Okay. Okay. Best with screenplay. Okay.

Best adapted screenplay. You want to go first or you want me to go first? I'll go first. So, Jack Odyard, Emilia Perez, Peter Strong, Conclave, James Mangold and Jay Cox, A Complete Unknown, Rommel Ross and Jocelyn Barnes, Nickel Boys, and I forgot to look up the credits for Wicked, but Wicked. Hold on. Where is this in the document? Screenplay?

Winnie Holtzman and Steven Schwartzman. Okay. For Wicked. So you don't have... What do you not have from my list? You don't have Sing Sing on your list. I know. Well, what is your hoping for? Sing Sing.

Oh, interesting. Okay, so I have Sing Sing on my list. Yeah, and then you're hoping for Wicked. And I'm hoping for Nickel Boys. Oh, okay. I feel that I have Sing Sing on my list. So my list is... And you're hoping for Wicked? And I'm hoping for Nickel Boys. Oh, okay. I feel that one of the sad things that is happening is that Nickel Boys did not get the awards camp, the awards run that it deserved. Nickel Boys is both WGA and BAFTA.

I hear you. So... I hear you. Okay. I also... Well, BAFTA has six nominees, right? Yes, but... Mm... One, two, three, I, okay. I'm pretty... I also... Well, BAFTA has six nominees, right? Yes, but... Mmm... One, two, three, four, five. You're right, it does have six, but no.

In screenplay, it seems that it only has five. BAFTA is so confusing. One thing that happened with BAFTA this year is that they changed, they used to have a jury system that would allow for additional films to get in that weren't based on the sort of popular voting for the nominees, and they just did away with that now. So they've changed their voting rules multiple times and like sometimes it's one of the most

predictive award shows and other times it's way different. So it's kind of hard to know what BAFTA means to the Oscars right now. Screenplay I feel like a broken record but screenplay is a place where we often get to reward cool movies that are rewarded other places. So I'm hoping that Nickel Boys comes in on that one. For Adaptive Screenplay, I have a complete unknown conclave, Amelia Perez, Sing Sing, and Wicked. I would like Nickel Boys to replace Wicked. I don't get the Wicked thing at all for screenplay.

Oh, me too. Yes, that's who I'm taking it away from is Wicked. It's a stage musical. Obviously, some things have been changed, but like... Apparently, a lot has been added. Yeah. But they didn't get rid of the singing goat, so... Okay. Best original screenplay.

Have you seen Wicked? No. Okay. Did you know that animals start singing? I have listened to the big picture, yeah. Oh. Okay. Best original screenplay. I'll go first. Okay. Best original screenplay. Yeah.

I'll go first. Okay. I have Anora, the Brutalist, Hard Truths, A Real Pain, and The Substance. I like that. I've got four out of five. Anora, A Real Pain, The Substance, The Brutalist, and Challengers.

So Challengers is my hoping for. Yeah, it was my hoping for, and then I decided to bump Justin Kuritsuki's up. Again, under the theory that this is a, Yeah, it was my hoping for and then I decided to bump Justin Kuritski's up again Under the theory that this is a screenplay is a place where we honor things. Mm-hmm. Cool stuff. Yeah cool stuff Uh, I like that movie the Quentin Tarantino Wes Anderson award Sure, exactly the Jordan Peele award. Yeah Kaufman award and then WGAs are it like it's in the mix, at least at WGAs.

And Challengers was like a, it was a phenomenon. Um, that also- So what do you want that to replace? What I want Challengers to replace? Um, no, no, no, that's my fifth. That's your number five. And what I'd like that also gives me room then to say that I'd like to see Aaron Schimberg for a different man.

Well, what is that replacing? Uh, a real pain. Damn. Well, I, it, I, real pain was very nice. Okay. Um, I have challengers, I would like challengers to knock out the substance. The substance is spectacular in many ways. Yeah.

Not a great screenplay. Screenplay is not my favorite screenplay. It did win best screenplay at Cannes. And obviously people do like the screenplay. I would argue that the screenplay is a kind of agglomeration of a lot of ideas and movies that we've seen before. Yes. But, you know, it puts them together in memorable ways. The execution is amazing.

I love many, many aspects of that movie. That is not my favorite. I love many, many aspects of that movie. That is not my favorite. I would rather have challengers there. That would, however, make it an all-male plus Mona Fast-Vold screenplay category, which is not ideal. Okay, let's do best supporting actor.

Okay. This one is mostly easy. Yeah. You go first. Yura Borosoff for Nora, Kieran Culkin for Real Pain, Guy Pearce, The Brutalist, Edward Norton, A Complete Unknown, and Jeremy Strong, The Apprentice. I don't have Jeremy Strong in.

I have Clarence Macklin over Jeremy Strong. I would like to see Clarence Macklin over Jeremy Strong, and I would take the nomination away from Jeremy Strong with all respect. You haven't seen The Apprentice, you haven't seen Sing Sing? I've seen Sing Sing. I loved it. Yeah, it was great. I mean, if Clarence Macklin doesn't get nominated, to me that's the real crime of award season. You see that they're going to be doing the play from Sing Sing?

Oh, really? Yeah, in New York. Oh, cool. Yeah. Wow. So I don't know who I would take out here. I have Jeremy Strong, The Apprentice as my hoping for. Yeah. Wow. So I don't know who I would take out here. I have Jeremy Strong, The Apprentice, as my hoping for. OK. As listeners of the Prestige TV podcast, no, I love Jeremy Strong. I mean, so do I, but like...

Ah... I don't know who I would take out. I might... I... Kieran Culkin or Edward Norton. I like both of those performances a lot. I'm not taking out Yura Borosov. I thought Kieran Culkin was like a lock. No, but just like who I would take out. If I could replace Jeremy Strong with someone,

I don't know that I could really do that, Amanda. He would still be in sixth place to me. Well, okay. Because then Amanda Dobbins dropped on by, here at the big picture. Sing a little tune for us. Should we bring you a guitar? Last time she made her own ice cream.

That's pretty good. Oh, Alison Brogan's recipe for chili. I cream. That's pretty good. That's awesome. Alison Brogan's recipe for chili. I did. That's a really, really good recipe. Okay, here's a very difficult category. Yeah. Best supporting actress, arguably the most wide open category at the moment. You want me to go first?

Yeah, it's your turn. Okay. Monica Barbaro, a complete unknown. Oh, wow. Jamie Lee Curtis, the last showgirl. Okay, Monica Barbaro a complete unknown. Oh, wow. Jamie Lee Curtis the last showgirl Ariana Grande wicked Felicity Jones the brutalist and Zoe Saldana for Amelia Perez That's your predictions of who's gonna get nominated for Oscars. Okay Ariana Grande wicked Isabella Rossellini conclave Zoe Saldana Emily Amelia Perez Felicity Jones the brutalist and Jamie Lee Curtis The Last Showgirl. What is going on? Some crazy precursor stuff going on is what's going on.

And like, I mean, I agree with you, but listen, actors, we love them, we can't always trust them, and they fall for this. Oh man. I love you, Tim, but you know. Tim. Simon's, yeah. Oh, okay. He's not all actors. He's one of the supporting actresses in Amelia Presley. You just didn't get to the second half of the film, unfortunately.

He's the person leading the Jamie Lee Curtis nominee. I'm not trying to be nasty about Jamie Lee Curtis. I think possibly... She's actually good in... It's a very memorable performance. Is The Last Showgirl like available to watch? It's not on stream. It's not available on VOD at the moment. I don't think. I do think it's probably playing in some theaters in LA.

It opened in LA at the end of the year. Some AMC theaters. Yeah. So you can go see it. Yeah. She has a very noisy performance, not dissimilar from her work on The Bear. And she's just extremely active in the community.

And hosts events, attends events, does tons of Q&A's, has really supported the movie. I listened to a conversation between Gia Coppola and Francis Ford Coppola, her grandfather, on the DGA podcast, which was interesting and mostly became a Francis Ford Coppola monologue. But when Gia did speak, she talked about how she had a very, very short window of time with Jamie Lee Curtis. I think she had four days with her. And there are a bunch of big names in that movie. Dave Bautista is in that movie. Obviously, Pamela Anderson, you mentioned Kiernan Shipka.

It's a relatively stacked cast for a movie that was made in like 19 days. But in those four days, Jamie Lee Curtis does a lot. One might argue too much. She plays really big these days, but I think that's going to happen. Could be wrong. Might not be widely seen enough, but her getting nominated at two precursors. Who's the biggest person on the outside looking in here? I have four people where I'm like,

I don't think they're going to make it. I have multiple people I'd like to see. I'd like to see Monica Bavaro. I think she's getting in. I mean, that would be great. A Complete Unknown has gotten in in a lot of places. James Mangold at DGA, it did really, really well at BAFTA. You know, a movie like Complete Unknown is not guaranteed to get

in in a place like BAFTA. And Mangold movies, there's a lot of respect for the performances that he gets out of actors. He has two actors who've won Academy Awards, another who was nominated. I could see it. That would be great. I would take it away from Jamie Lee Curtis, respectfully. I would take it away from Jamie Lee Curtis. I would put Daniel Deadweiler in. That's great. Because I already have Monica Barbaro in for the panelist. And I won't be stunned if Daniel Deadweiler.

I won't either. I think it's possible. I don't think Angellina Ellis-Taylor is going to happen for Nickel Boys. I don't think Margaret Quali is going to happen for The Substance. Could, but I don't think so. Isabella Rossellini, I have out. Okay. We'll see. Is that because she keeps saying that her mom is Ingrid Berbin? A lot of netbows in this category. Isabella Rossellini,

got Fernanda Torres over there, you know, she's a netbow. Obviously, Jamie Lee Curtis is a netbow. It's pretty tough. Ariana Grande, she's a mother. Is she? She's mother. She's giving, she's giving his mother. She's giving his mother. Linda's giving mother to my daughter.

Best actress. Not for me. That's for you and Alice. None of that for me. Best actress. Sierra, what's your favorite female performance at the movies in 2024? You ask like I don't have any. Have you seen any films featuring women?

Yeah. I mean, that's a... Mikey Madison? I think it's, it's Mikey and Demi. Yeah. They're two of my favorites. Okay. What do you, so what's your roster, Amanda? And Marianne Jean-Papetit, I thought was incredible in Hard Truce.

Um, so Marianne Jean-Papetit in Hard Truce is my, that's, that's the swing I'm going for, but I think it's going to happen. Yep. I'm seeing Hard Truce tomorrow. Cindy Erivo, Wiccan, Carlos Sofia Gascón, Emilio Perez, Mikey Madison, and Nora, and Demi Moore, The Substance. We match on all five.

Um, I also think Mary-Anne Jean-Baptiste is getting in. Not as many indicators as you'd like to see, but previously a nominee. Something that a lot of the hardcore pundits have pointed out recently is that Mary-Anne Jean-Baptiste, while she is an English performer in a Mike Lee movie, is like very much a working actor in Los Angeles who was on like a procedural CBS television show

for many years, who a lot of people have worked with over time. She's a part of the community of Hollywood. So that felt very compelling to me. Now that would leave out Fernanda Torres, Pamela Anderson, and I would like to see Nicole Kidman. That's also who I have now. You coming around on Baby Girl? I like it.

I always liked it. You didn't want to put it in the Hall of Fame. Oh. But I acquiesced. I know. OK. You find it too sexually confrontational. I feel like it didn't go far enough. Yeah.

I feel like, yeah. I feel like Harris thickens it needed to do more. I didn't. When are you? I guess you should probably see it. Wait for Phoebe. Yeah. Do you think I should go as a solo man to Baby Girl? Can we get a camera on you, Clockwork Orange-style waltz to watch Baby Girl? And the only time you're able to open your mouth is when I feed you milk?

Okay. I heard about that. Yeah. Yeah, I bet you'd like that. Uh, Nicole Kidman would knock out for me, Cynthia Erivo. Me as well. Yeah. Uh, Nicole Kidman would knock out for me, Cynthia Areva. Me as well. Yeah. And let me say, that's just because of the Wicked performance. Incredible press run.

Yep. Really appreciate and support all of it. Is this the first category that we match on? I think so. I mean, we're like four for five on basically every single one. Yeah. As unpredictable a year as it has been,

I think the precursors have started to calcify a lot of this stuff. Best actor. Yes. I'll go first. I believe the nominees will be Adrienne Brody for The Brutalist, Timothy Chalamet for A Complete Unknown, Coleman Domingo for Sing Sing, Rafe Fiennes for Conclave,

and Sebastian Stan. Me too. For... The Apprentice. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you are aware of what's happening on Monday, but I think that people

are working through their feelings. Never seen a guy turn a campaign around by sheer will to the way that Stan has publicly talked about the way that this movie was received and drawn people. Basically called everybody cowards for not supporting it. Yes. Yeah. And it worked. And it was very smart.

And from my perspective, totally worthy nomination. I think he's excellent in that movie. That's not a fun movie to watch these days for a variety of reasons. But he's an exceptional actor. It's very brave to take on this part for a variety of reasons. If I had to do a hoping for, it would be Hugh Grant. Me too!

Because it would just be fun to have him around. It would just be fun? Yeah. I don't really know who I'd be knocking off here. Can I be honest? Now that I don't think he's gonna win for his It's Time award. You could knock off Rafe. Yeah, and we can come back another time. He's very good in Conclave. I enjoyed that movie. Pretty silly.

You guys feel like Conclave in general has kind of plateaued? Well, it got the most BAFTA nominations. Yeah, it got 11 nominations, but All Quiet on the Western Front got 14 nominations. Sure, it got a ton of Oscar nominations too. It didn't win. It didn't win. Well, it did win international, but it won't be eligible for that this year. Um, they like Edward Berger movies, but I don't know what that necessarily means.

I like Edward Berger movies too. Yeah. I think if, like, an actor in particular, if Chalamet wins... Sorry. Which is helpful since I'm moving to England to see Paddington and Peru. Every time you stare straight into my eyes as you take a chug.

since I'm moving to England to see Patty time through. Every time you stare straight into my eyes as you take a chug. Well, you said that you... For real, love? What are you saying? You think it was because I directed her to look in your direction to hit the microphone? He also just keeps talking about how he misses sitting, like,

right across from someone in the semicircle. It's just unnatural. It's not natural. So I'm trying to include Chris. Well, are you having a hard time locking eyes with me? No, I can see you. She's just in my periphery, so I don't like that. Okay. Yeah, you're like a leopard, you know?

Don't get behind me. I might turn around and claw your face off. Do you want to just check the ergo? I guess I don't... See what it means? It's pretty heavy though. Yeah, well... Woman buys water bottle at Target and makes lots of content out of it.

This is what's been happening, two consecutive episodes of the show. Yeah, it's 2025, we're all doing the best we can. I don't want to knock anybody off for Hugh Grant. No offense to Hugh Grant. Okay. So that's twice I've not totally played your game. I apologize. That's fine.

I just, I think Ray Fiennes should have won for a bigger splash. And I want to come back to a bigger splash for another project of ours. We have a deeper conversation to have about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Best director. You go first, Amanda.

Okay. Sean Baker and Nora, Brady Courbet, The Brutalist, Edward Berger, Conclave, Jacques Odard, Emilia Perez, and Coralie Far Courbet, the Brutalist, Edward Berker, Conclave, Jacques Odyard, Emilia Perez, and... Coralie Fargeot, the Substance. We match five out of five. What do you guys wish for? Rommel Ross.

Me too, even though I haven't even seen it yet, but sounds cool. Not Alex Garland. Uh... I think that'd be cool. I would like to... There's always one surprise. There's always one thing. Villeneuve?

No, that's not happening. I guess that was a takeaway that we should have held your head and you and I, and it's not happening. He's actually being retroactively nominated for Sicario. It's gonna be very exciting that morning. I don't think it's happening either. Who do you think will win the Thalberg Award first? Stefano Salima?

Or... Or Jeremy Sanje? Yeah. Um... Hmm. I don't... I have Rimmel down as my hoping for... I would probably take Edward Berger off. I would take Odierd. Oh, Odierd, yeah. I didn't even think of Odierd.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I definitely would take Jacques Odierd. Sorry, you're right. That's the right move. Dini or James Mangold wouldn't be stunned if either of them made it. Also wouldn't be stunned if Coralie Fargem missed. I wouldn't either, if either of them made it. Also wouldn't be stunned if Coralie Fargem missed. I wouldn't either, but they're getting better about being like, we should probably nominate a woman, you know? I believe there is a clause in the voting for BAFTA that you need to include a woman.

There is. Yeah. I mean, they have all sorts of things, which... How do you feel about that? I, it's very complicated. Okay. Um... Feel free to share. I? I... It's very complicated. Okay. Um...

Feel free to share. I'm... I just... Let's keep it moving. Are you holding space because you want to be able to move to England without being... Coming under fire from the British Association of Film and Television? You want to move to England because... So she can see Paddington in Peru. Paddington in Peru. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Did he ever use the postcards that we brought back for him? The book with the letters? Paddington? The Paddington book that we brought back? Yes, but then we lost one of the postcards, you know? It's always funny to watch you guys getting into a conversation about Knox and you only referred to him as he,

as though he were Christ. Yeah. Best picture. Okay. Here's what I've got. Did I just go? No. I go now. Why don't, yeah. What if we alternate?

And then you can say yes or no. Oh, that's fine. That keeps it fun for me. I'll start. Anora. Yes. The Brutalist. Yes. A Complete Unknown. Yes. Conclave.

Well, I was supposed to go again. Sorry. Yes, I have Conclave. Amelia Presse. Yes. And Wicked. Yes. Dune Part II. Yes. A Real Pain. Yes. And Wicked. Yes. Dune Part II.

Yes. A Real Pain. Yes. The Substance? Yes. I'm gonna go with Nickel Boys. I have Sing Sing. Okay, mine is I'd like to see Sing Sing, but I'm not taking it away from Nickel Boys. A film I literally haven't seen yet, it's on my list. I would take it away from Amelia Press.

Can I ask a question? Yeah. Why is Dune Part II a Best Picture nominee if it's not getting any other recognition? I think that Dune Part II might fall off. That could be a surprise. It's possible. It's possible. It is very widely seen and has huge support for Below the Line. And will probably have somewhere between four and seven Below the Line. And we'll probably have somewhere between four

and seven Below the Line nominations. You gotta think about sound, visual effects, production design, costumes, hair and makeup, cinematography, like these are all in play. Plus, plus director is in play, plus best picture. You know, I think Dune Part One had 10 nominations and won, I think, four Oscars. So there's big appreciation for the mounting of that movie.

There's not a lot of appreciation for being considered a Best Picture worthy masterpiece, which I think is a darn shame. And is kind of the last, if the substance is getting nominated for Best Picture, a science fiction movie winning Best Picture, I guess everything I ever wrote once was kind of that, but not really. But like a true hard sci-fi movie winning Best Picture is like... That's the last step. That's the last stage. Because sci-fi is not superhero.

Like superhero is a much more modern thing. Science fiction movies, Metropolis is 100 years old. Like this has been happening in movies for a long time and it is still not accepted in the same way that virtually every other genre is. So I think it's interesting that it has no chance right now, even though it's one of the 10 highest grossing movies of the year. Many people agree it's terrific.

Phil Neuve has also ascended to very rare fi air as a director. I'm fairly certain that it will not get the return of the king. Will get you on the last one because Dune Messiah is quite odd. I'm wondering how many modifications Wicked Style will be made to Messiah to make it seem more praiseworthy? Whatever they do, it's still going to be a tougher. I think it's still going to be a tougher watch. OK. It's going to be a tougher. I don't think it's still gonna be tougher. I think it's still gonna be a tougher watch. Okay.

It's gonna be a tougher, I don't think it's gonna be as broadly popular. It's on the calendar, right? For, is it 2027? I think it's Villain of his next film. Or 2026? It might be for 20, it might be end of year 26? No, that can't be right. It'll look really weird. Yeah, look, I mean, I'm just thinking through, is everyone available?

Like, what else do we know about everyone else's next projects? It's a very good question, specifically because you've got... Chalamet, Florence Pugh. Zendaya and Florence, but Awesome Brothers dead, right? I believe it's... I think it's dated for December 18th, 2026. But I think it's just untitled, Denis Villeneuve film. And then there was news that he was gonna make the nuclear devastation movie, but now I guess that's not

at the front of the line anymore. Anyhow. Catherine Bigelow is like, I got this. Uh, yeah. Will you be joining us for the Bigelow pod next year? Yes. This year? Yeah? You're interested? Yeah. Great. Um, my alts are Nosferatu,

all we imagine is light in September 5th, but I'm hoping for Nickel Boys. Any other movies you think could get in there? Any other, like, random Sea to the Sacred Fig nomination out of nowhere or something like that? Sure, though I think it would be all we imagine it's light as the kind of international... Yeah, I could see that happening. I could see that happening. My reasoning for Nickel Boys is that it's like, it's everywhere, you know? It like, it was not in the DJ-5, but Rimmel Ross did get like first feature, right? It was at, it was not in BAFTA's five best films, but it was in screenplay.

Like it's, there are, it was on the AFI list, you know? There are like bits and pieces. You know where it missed? Where? Cinematographers. Which is weird. Yeah. That wasn't a good sign to me.

Okay. They're missing. Because Joe Mo Frey, I believe the cinematographer's name is is uh His work has been very celebrated for what they do in that movie and not being there is bit suspect Those are our predictions What do you think? I'm riveted. I mean, I thought that that's a very complete picture The complete picture should be the new name of the spot So what are your viewing priorities now that you've had to sit here and listen to us talk for 45 minutes?

Well, I think I probably owe it to the culture to watch a little bit of like Watch Wicked. OK. And other than that, I haven't seen September 5. And that's it, I think. Otherwise, I'm pretty up to date. And the other half of Amelia Prez. And the other half of Amelia Prez. And the other half of Amelia Presse. Are you prepared to address the fact that you watched and loved Flo?

Oh, yeah! You guys want to talk about it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw it. I haven't seen it. That cat. You know what? Can I tell you something about Flo?

Not to spoil it. That bird reminded me of you. Thank you. Appreciate that. I was thinking of you're more the capybara to me. Yeah. That's your energy. No, I don't nap that much. Oh, there's a Capybara?

Yeah. I'm into Capybaras. It's a very enjoyable, surprisingly sad in places film with a lot of swimming. Terrific movie. I like swimming. I don't need more sad right now. How about that though? My wife really wanted to watch it and I was like whatever.

She texted me and my heart grew ten sizes when she saw it. I still have not shown it to my daughter. I would really like to. Do you think she would... I think it's a little too dark. And I think you're going to have to explain something. No dialogue. She's not ready to...

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Cozy up with the familiar flavors of pistachio. Or shake up your mood with an iced brown sugar oat shaken espresso. Whatever you choose, your espresso will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. Okay, well, it's time to pivot to the 2026 Best Picture winner. will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. Okay. Well, it's time to pivot to the 2026 best picture winner. I'm referring of course to Den of Thieves 2 Pantera, which is the number one movie at the American box office right now. This is a sequel to the surprise 2018 cult classic that was co-written and

directed by Christian Gudegust. This is a not one, but two time appearer on the rewatchables podcast, including a recent episode recorded live in front of a studio audience. Including Christian Guttegast. And Christian Guttegast. Um, this, the first film is very fun and very, um, quickly gained a strong reputation within the, the annals of the ringer as exactly the kind of thing we need.

The male community. Yes. This is more and more people are saying, Den of Thieves. Chris and I, because of our lot in life, our wonderful lot in life, have been hearing about this movie for a very long time. From both people behind the scenes and people who just wanted it in their eyeballs. Big Nick is back. This is a Gerard Butler project. He and O'Shea Jackson Jr. Ice Cube's son are the two key stars and perhaps two of the only survivors of the original film. I believe there were a

couple of members of Big Nick's sheriff's squad but I I don't know. They're not referenced in this film. To my knowledge, we will get into that in a second. Was Brian Van Holt one of those guys? Yeah, he's great. He wasn't back in this new one, unfortunately. I think he lived. I think you're right. Den of Thieves, you're not really on the record about Den of Thieves, the original film.

That is because despite, you know, living and working alongside you guys for many years, I had not seen it until this week. It was more like I got all the... Like, I knew about Benihana, you know? I knew about... Like, I knew it was in the Heat tradition. Yes. Did you know this much Atlanta would be in Torrance and Gardena? I mean, I've come to accept it, expect it at this point.

So I had a real treat of watching Den of Thieves and then Den of Thieves 2. And I have to tell you, when Benny Hanna shows up, it's just electric. I was like, Benny Hanna! Here we are! One of the best scenes in the movie. Seem ceiling location. Gerard Butler confronting Pablo Schreiber. Despite knowing so much about Den of Thieves, without having seen Den of Thieves,

I was like, oh, wow, they're really going for it. I, you know, I got it. I really understood it. I thought parts of it were absolutely ridiculous, but on purpose, and that is the point. And I had a fantastic time. We commonly use the word garbage to describe a certain kind of movie that feels similar to a more classical or celebrated version of a movie.

This is the truest garbage heat movie that exists. Yeah, absolutely. And I say that with a lot of affection. I really, really like the original Xenith Thieves. It's on streaming on Macs right now if you're interested in checking it out. It seems like a lot of people are checking it out. I think it's a number one on their movie chart at the moment. I saw it all over Lightyear Box last week. This new movie, you could make the case doesn't need to exist.

And I think that's part of why I greatly enjoyed this movie. Um, this sequel is very, very different. It takes us away from Eastern Los Angeles and creates an international journey of history. Um, Big Nick is back. CR, I thought before we get into your feelings about the movie, do you just want to talk about your experience of watching this film? So obviously, as Sean has mentioned, this was a, it's an international crime caper. It's mostly set in

the South of France. It pulls from the legendary and infamous Balkan jewel gang, jewel heist gang, the pink Panthers. There is a Pantera is why that's the name of the film. Yes, the Panthers. There is Italian spoken in this film. There's French spoke in this film. There's assorted Balkan languages. Quite a bit of Serbian. Yes, a lot of Serbian. And I went to a Friday night showing of this film

at an AMC theater and like thousands of men across this country. I was apparently one of the people who saw what was, according to the man in the lobby who worked for the theater, a corrupted file. And so they needed to re-download it at the last second. And that version of the movie that we watched did not have subtitles. So I watched Den of Thieves with no subtitles. Now, you guys saw it, I imagine, with subtitles. I did. How much of the movie had subtitles?

So much. Yeah, like a good amount. Like, so it's fair to say that 60% of this film is in a language that I didn't really understand. Like I can sometimes pick up some French broadly. Right. But I got what this movie is going for. I was gonna say, but like also, in many ways,

this is a silent film, you know? And so... That was kind of a remarkable experience. So I had seen the first 10 minutes. When Christian Guttegaard came for the first, the Den of Thieves podcast, he showed the first 10 minutes of Pantera to the crowd. Which is a heist.

And has subtitles, which is what made my alarm bells go off. I was like, why? No, it's weird. Did anyone do they took them off after, like, they screen tested it with us or something? And then as we got further and further into it, and guys are just having full conversations in French, I was like, this seems wrong. So I ran out to the lobby and I was like, is there...

Do you guys have to hit, like, a button to turn the subtitles on? He's like, oh no, it's the file. Sorry. And if you go online, lots of people were like, I went to go see Den of Thieves Friday night and there were no subtitles. It was so fucked up. And I think actually also maybe the way in which it was projected that night was off. Like there were some people complaining about some visual stuff. Sounds like they've righted the ship. It sounds like America voted with their wallets and said, we're here for Big Nick, no matter what language it's in. So, very strange. We can get into the film itself.

Well, what you're talking about, though, is an amazing test of whether or not this movie is total cinema baby. Because the plotting, as with the original film, quite arcane. Sometimes deeply confusing. And that may not matter. I did text you as I was revisiting the original this week, Chris, and I was like,

why is the last hour of Den of Thieves the way that it is? Which is to say, so long and complicated and almost like the slow cinema of heist movies, where you're sort of like, what point are you trying to make by dragging this out in the very specific way that you are? I think ultimately I came to understand something that's very clear in this movie too,

which is that this filmmaker is just like, it's so fucking cool with these guys too. And it's hard and it takes a lot of work, and I'm gonna spend time focusing on all the little details, even if you think it's like a little bit boring. Like- Yeah, and definitely confusing. Yeah. Um...

And this movie, I think, is somewhat similar, but it does an inversion of that, which is that the first hour of Then of Thieves 2 is basically a hangout movie. It's like Midnight Run. Yeah, and there's been a lot of comparisons to Ocean's 12. Like! Yeah, it's not...

It's a buddy comedy. It's like two guys fish out of water in south of France, doing Molly, getting to know each other. Yeah. I almost went to the bathroom during the Molly scene. Can you imagine? That would have been a mistake. And I will say this for the film. After that point, I was like,

well, I don't know when I can go to the bathroom because I'm gonna miss them doing Molly. And it took like a really long time. And I'll tell you that I finally went to the bathroom during the heart-to-heart scene, but I had to get through... After they swim back to shore? Or no, when he's like, I need this brother. When they're having shawarma and Stella together.

Which I guess is like not that long after the Molly scene. I love that scene. The Molly scene goes on for a while. Well, I sat through, I was like, I really have to say, because I need to hear what O'Shea Jackson Jr.'s like motivation, like what is the, what's the explanation? What's the motivation? Like help me understand this character. And then sort of that happened. And then Gerard Butler was like doing some Big Nick relating stuff. And I was like, yeah, I get it. I can pee during this. You don't understand men.

That's my takeaway from the rating of that sequence. No, I know. Well, so... Sometimes a man has to walk to a magnet school, and that explains why he is an internationally known criminal felon. Well, I watched that part. Yeah. Yeah. And then...

That was great. It actually wasn't great. And, you know, the flaw of the movie, obviously, is that... They can't act. It's hard to get that stuff, the motivational, emotional connectivity to characters. That's not really what Den of Thieves is about. I liked that they tried to go for it to give us a reason to better understand Nick and Donny.

But... And I liked watching that scene, but I wasn't like, oh, I see now why these men are this way. Like men are that way because they're animals. Like that's what the movie is about. There's a, it's weird. You know, we just went through this whole process

of you guys doing what you wish had happened with nominations and who you would replace. And I will be candid and say that if I was given my pick of any guy to live through Den of Thieves and get into Den of Thieves 2, it would not have been the Donnie character. Yeah, of course. His sort of naivete is a twist in the first one, where you're like, how does this guy get hooked up

with these absolute hitters? Right. And then you find out, well, he's like kind of the Kaiser Soze of the whole thing. Yeah, but even when, like, what does he have to say? Like, I'm very aware of my entire environment or whatever. And, like, that's not delivered in a confidence-inspiring way. Yeah, it's not as... It's not as super believable.

You think you should have been recast with Spacey? No, but we did tease out, like, the idea of, like, couldn't Merriman have had, like, a twin somewhere that we could bring back that Pablo Schreiber could play. In any case, if you... I think that this is a really fun and cool crime film. It's not necessarily the spiritual inheritor of the Den of Thieves mystique for me. Do you know what I mean? I thought it was totally much different. It asked us to kind of imagine this guy seven years later. Is that what it is? Like, because he's looking at pictures of himself.

He's like, that was years ago, right? Yeah, although his daughter didn't seem that much older. I couldn't remember... Do we see his daughter in this movie? I thought we saw... Yeah, when she's getting in the car when they're leaving in the first film. Oh. But we don't see her in the second film.

In the second film I'm talking about. He's just at family court. Oh, you're right. We don't see her. Oh. But we don't see her in the second film. The second film I'm talking about. He's just at family court. Oh, you're right. We don't see her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I can't remember how much time is supposed to have transpired. He visits her at school in the first film. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's where he goes before the shoot out at the end. Um, I thought it was like a really, really cool movie as like a caper that's separate from Den of Thieves. When in this film, Big Nick says, and this time no one gets hurt,

there was like a real like, oh... No one's gonna get hurt in this movie. Well, that's not entirely what happens. Yeah, but like the whole... The reason Den of Thieves used standard attention is because the first scene of the movie is the climax of any other movie. Really true. It's really, really intense.

And I was like, oh, so, like, they are shooting people in this movie. And there's this very cool moment where Paula Schreiber's character is looking in the back of an armored truck and he goes, we're cop killers now. And everybody's just like... You guys all did a good job of recreating that on the Rewatches podcast, which I enjoyed. That pipe-hitting moment, is absent from this film.

Yeah, and I... And that's okay. But the opening is really... First of all, at some point, they're just driving around in the dark with various warehouse hangers, and I guess my attention span is not what it was, but I got a little bored at some point.

Oh, and they're stealing the diamonds. It was not, you know? And that's a high bar. You got a little bored in two during the heist? At the beginning. Oh, yeah, okay. The Antwerp heist you're talking about. Yeah, the Antwerp heist. Oh, and they're driving. Yeah, because, but, and also having just seen Den of Thieves,

I was expecting it to start with a banger, like Den of Thieves. And I was like, okay, you guys are just driving around, but you're not even exploding the plane. It's really more to set up the Cleopatra character and how she connects with Donnie and this kind of new den. That's what they're showing us, is the new den. And I think what the movie is trying to do is say that Den of Thieves has nothing to do with Merryman.

Or even in some ways, Big Nick. What it has to do is like a coterie of people who steal things. That's what it is. I agree with Chris that that misunderstands what's appealing about Den of Peace. Could be. Could be. But maybe what this is, and I think that this is going to be a long running franchise, it can be many things. And maybe what will happen now, can Big Nick keep it going?

Can Big Nick keep showing up? I don't think you can do one of these without him. I agree with that. So how do they get him back in the fold after the events at the end of this movie, which we don't necessarily have to spoil for this episode? Well, he's halfway in the fold. I mean, he's always been in and outside of the lot. It's part of what makes him a great character.

It's a great bit. He doesn't know which way is up. Yeah, I know. It's such of what makes him a great character. It's a great bit. He's so deep he doesn't know which way is up. I know. It's such a good aspect of that part. I found this. So I found Big Nick. This was obviously... Big Nick has entered my life in the last week. Just like an incredibly repellent character

in like such a powerful way. But I was like, no, no, this is good. Because like I am like, I'm allergic to all of that. But they commit to it so much that I... And the first one especially, yeah. Yeah. But I was just like, wow, this is like, if I had to write out my definition of a true fucking loser,

like the type of person in the world that I'm just like, yuck, it would be that. And they nailed all of it. So that's really beautiful. You know? If anything, Den of Thieves 2 soft all of it. So that's really beautiful. You know? If anything, Dennis, these two softens him. Well, that's the thing is, at the beginning of this film, you're like, this is very much the same loser that you're talking about.

And even all the way up until the moment, when he gets to France and he encounters Donnie, you're like, this guy's still a piece of shit. He's drinking the Johnny Walker. He's so sweaty. His hair is like wet the whole time in this movie, which is just disgusting. I don't know, is he putting product in there

or why is it always wet? And you think that he's gonna break better than anybody's ever broken before. Which would have been hard as shit. Yes, and they've chosen to do the opposite, which as you pointed out, but they like weirdly make him very ethical. He's like Batman now. Yeah.

Yeah. Which I think is obviously maybe... He, like, goes to a church. He does go to church. You know, and have, like, a moment of... Go to specifically, I think, to see that cop. But yeah. Sure, but, like, his moment of revelation

is, like, literally in church. In church, yeah. So I think only three guys die in this movie. Well, there's an epic aerial assassination at the end of a long car chase. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. The car chase is sick. Incredible.

It is worth the price of admission. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The car chase at the end of the movie. It was so cool. Driving through the mountains of Nice in France. In Porsches that have been, like, basically, like, doctored to not have any safety measures. Yes, totally blacked out with the Nas all the way up.

So there's some extreme violence there. There's a little bit of, like, there's a Serbian gang that is running all of the heist work in Europe stuff that is, like, a little, I would say a little vague. Well, those guys are Sardinian, right? They're in Sardinia, but my man's name say a little vague. Well, those guys are Sardinian, right? They're in Sardinia, but my man's name is Slobodan. Oh yeah, the-

No, Slobodan's different than the guy at the end of the movie. Yeah. Yes, that's true. But there's the, I think there is the- But Slobodan is like the target. The Italian mafia, and then Slobodan is the guy who is the leader of the panthers. Yeah, that was my understanding as well.

That's right, what I'm saying is Slobodan, that the Serbian gangs run the heist the Panthers. Yeah, that was my understanding as well. Right, what I'm saying is Slobodan, that the Serbian gangs run the heist game. Yeah. Whereas the Italian mafia runs the diamond exchange. And they get, they steal the wrong diamonds. Yes. And that, yeah, I mean, all that stuff was very cool to me. Yeah.

Did you notice this one thing? Either of you. Was there a drone shot every five seconds in this film? Yeah, of course. It felt like drone shot every five seconds in this film? Yeah, of course. I actually thought, I usually get so annoyed by this, and my single biggest annoyance in American movies right now is a film either opening or moving from its second act to its third act with a drone shot moving through a forest in a lonely road following a car.

This is the most overdone shot in American movies and TV. It should be over. We should never see it again. We do not need to see that there is a desolation and an isolation in the forest and in the American experience. We get it. However, if you're in the mountains of Sardinia, you should have a drone shot. I found it in the first half a little bit more distracting. The car chase in the mountains, the drone's going everywhere.

It's awesome. In the first half, when you're like, we're like 80 seconds into a scene, and then it's like a drone that goes flying out the car window. I'm just like, all right. To me, it's just also, it has become now this sign of, oh, we didn't actually go here, we just sent a drone to take a shot. And I know that's not actually true in this case, but my brain... This was shot on location though, right?

Yeah, but now my brain, whenever I see one of the shots, I'm like, okay, establishing shot. Yeah, and then you're, you know, and I get mad. It's essentially two movies though. I mean, that's worth talking about. Like the first movie, the first half of it, is this kind of like shaggy dog buddy cop, like two guys opposites attract, having fun.

He is... Big Nick shows up and is weirdly welcomed into the most notorious jewel gang in all of Europe. But like, Oh, you, you being a sheriff is, is an advantage. Quite, quite dubious. Uh, and Cleopatra, who is this woman who runs all of this stuff is like seduced easily by Big Nick's charms. Right. No, you are not.

And then that goes on for a bit. And then we get one full like hour and 10 minute set piece, two set pieces really that are just fantastic. The actual jewel heist and then the cart. The escape. So the heist itself, I found a little wanting. A little wanting. I agree.

Given the standards and given, I think there's like a real ingenuity and weirdness to the one in the first one, where it's like explaining why they stole the armored truck that was empty in the first place. And then the setup of entering the bank, but using that as a, like a false flag for getting to the federal reserve.

And then the idea of the money that is not yet shredded, it was, it's all very, even though it takes a long time and at times it's sort of annoying to wait to get through, its construction is very cool to think about. This one is similarly ornate. We're sort of like, Donnie makes a deal to sell diamonds, and then needs to steal back those diamonds? Is that more or less how it works? I think he steals the Italian mafia's diamonds.

Right, he steals the diamonds and then sells them. And the Italian mafia is like, you have to get our diamonds back while in the process of stealing all these other diamonds. Or we'll kill you. Or we'll kill you. And they're the Italian mafia, so you don't. Yeah. No, I agree. all these other diamonds. Or we'll kill you. Or we'll kill you. And they're the Italian mafia, so you don't.

Yeah. No, I agree. Despite the elaborate setup at the end of the day, the second half of the movie, the heist, the tension is just like, oh, no, now we have to do this thing and it's not going well. OK, but then we fixed it. And then we have to do this other thing.

It's as instead of puzzle pieces coming together, you know, and it's like, oh no, we can't find this special pink diamond that we need because the Italian mafia is gonna kill us. And then, okay, we found it. Like, and oh no, Gerard Butler is like too swole to get off the roof, you know, and then which is like a thing that happens. Or fat. And then...

I think he blew his ACL out somewhere in the last couple of years and that was hindering his... In real life. Oh, wow. Working on some... But so then he just gets off the roof another way, you know? Yeah. It's so interesting.

I mean, part of the challenge is that they're wearing masks. And so there are plenty of times during that high school, I was like, is that Jerry Butler or is that some other guy? Is that a Serbian thief? And so that inability, like he's obviously, he's the comms man through the heist. So that's how we kind of know where we're tracking him is he's talking to Cleopatra about why were all of the rooms named after the beers? I forget.

I don't know, Bex and Corona or whatever it was. You know, when each space needed to go green during the heist sequence. And they're like, Bex is clear. Corona is clear. Okay. Um, I don't know, just an interesting code word. We started at Cleopatra and they're like, Bex is clear. Corona is clear. Okay. I don't know, just an interesting code word. We started at Cleopatra and then we got to Bex. It's a little strange.

And Stel. Do you think that that was some more creative product placement like the rest of the film, featuring LaCroix and Pepsi, very conspicuous? Oh, yeah. And then what's that shot at the end of the vodka that they... Oh, yeah. That one was just like a close-up on a bottle of vodka. Yeah.

Look, you have to... Art's not free, man. You gotta pay for it somehow. That's right. That's what I hear, you know? That's what I hear. I still had a great time watching this movie. Me too. I had a really, really fun time. I mean, I saw it... I literally did not get

55 to 60% of the dialogue and I still really enjoy myself. I mean, you did get O'Shea Jackson Jr.'s French English accent. What'd you think of that accent? I would say that was a low point. I will say in terms of knowing your actors and pivoting to their strengths, the buddy comedy aspect at least moves him towards comedy, which I think he's very adept at.

Yeah. I would say voice work, he's not at CR's level. Mm-hmm. And, like, emotional, you know... What if he played it more like Pete Seeger? You think that would've worked? Yeah, that'd be good. You know, now with my friend Big Dick.

Big, big, big, big dick. Um, but he's great in one shot. Capo tutti capo, in honor of our tales. But we're gonna steal that pink diamond for him. Um, on he's great in one shot. Capo tutti capo. It's on our tails. But we're gonna steal that pink diamond for him. Um, on the flip side, Gerard Butler has never lost a day in his life. He's one of the most compelling, watchable... slabs of meat in cinema.

They just don't make him like him anymore. I mean, it is something to behold. It was really, really fascinating. Yeah, I can smell him like him anymore. I mean, it is something to behold. It was really, really fascinating. Yeah, I can smell him watching this movie. Like, he really, he has an energy that is unique and just extremely well deployed. I think he's very good also in movies where he is just sort of like,

keep your nose clean hero type. Like, he has an ability to pull that off. Yeah, what was the word, plain? Plain, Greenland, like those, he's very good in those kinds of movies too where he's just like a regular guy who just happens to be a little beefy. But him, like, stinking to high heaven while bedding down a stripper, very believable.

Yeah. Did you, have you been following the discourse about Den of Thieves too, that it is a spiritual and cinematic inheritor to Jean-Pierre Melville's legacy? And even some, I think, have compared it to Robert Bresson. Uh, there is a little bit... Here's the thing. You must feel this acutely, because you're extremely influential, not just on the world at large, but your friends. But, like, at a certain point, you have to acknowledge

that something that you've worked on is infiltrated in a bad way. And so, all the boys on Letterboxd being like, this is Rafifi to me about Den of Thieves 2, means I have transgressed and that I need to apologize for my sins. It's fucking, yeah. These are like the anxiety of influence.

You've got to put on your prayer belt first before. Truly, I need to start whipping myself, Paul Bettany style. Um, I'm a little concerned about that. That's not what this movie is. There's admiration... I think that there is definitely, like, he's like, I love French gangster movies, and this is supposed to be a mood piece. I totally think that. I don't want to sound like a crazy, like, caveman.

It's just that part of the joy of Den of Thieves is the feeling that anyone could go, anything could pop off at any moment. It could go down at Benihana, it could go down at the donut shop, whatever. And Gerard Butler being like, it's important just to make sure guys get shot in their bulletproof vests and that nobody gets hurt

is boring. I mean, yes. I want it. It's not eating a donut that doesn't have blood on it. You know? It's not. Honestly, this is such a perfect circular moment, because of course, one of the great David Lynch quotes of all time is, focus on the donut, not on the hole. That that is the way of thinking about the philosophy of life.

It's about what's there, not about what's not there. It's not about the void. It's about the treat. It's about the exploration of what exists. And Den of Thieves is a very similar product. What exists is our movie set in Nice, in which Big Nick doesn't shoot people in the face. And I'm looking at the whole one, I'm like, where's Torrance? Yes. You want a dingy, nasty state that you reside in.

You want to be able to drive to the exteriors that are captured in the film Den of Thieves. Not the exteriors. They're all in Atlanta. I can't try to... Are they all in Atlanta? I think a lot of it is in Atlanta. That's too bad. How do you feel about that? Big Nick's wife's house is definitely in Atlanta.

Yes. Yeah. How do you guys know that? Well, I know that because I researched it. It's also like Mark Anthony Green was like, that's down the street. Yeah. Okay, good to know. Any closing thoughts? Den of Thieves 3, will you be there? Yes.

Yeah, sure. Okay. What if Big Nick's not in? I mean, I think that would be a mistake, but who am I? What side of the law is Big Nick on? To tell the Den of Thieves universe? He's... I believe he's on the fence. Is he affiliated with any kind of law enforcement organization

at this point? Is he part of Interpol? Is he part of the LASD? It's unclear if he's been ejected from the Sheriff's Department of Los Angeles. That one FBI agent is his homie now, who he's always just like, lobbing Bob, playing tennis. Yeah. Some of the best stuff in Dent of Thieves

one is him being like, you fucked this up! Like, really, really mad at the FBI guy. Like, really mad. I wish that there was more of that in this movie too. Okay. Any other closing thoughts? I enjoyed it. It's just, sometimes it's nice to be a part of your world sometimes. You know?

Don't view areas here, it's awesome. It's the right kind of January movie, I think. Do you think this will end up being the beekeeper of 2025? I definitely, Den of Thieves itself really stood up to multiple viewings. So I look forward to seeing Den of Thieves 2 and getting more dialogue. With some subtitles. That'll be helpful. You know there is an actual kind of spiritual sequel

to The Beekeeper coming in March called A Working Man. Yes, I'm aware of that. In which Jason Statham stars as a construction worker, turned vigilante hero. Oh, no. Directed by David Ayer. Written by Sylvester Stallone. Written by Sylvester Stallone.

Oh, dear. Okay. So buckle up for that one. When does that come out? March 28th. They're gonna be really into that on the Ninja Creamy Reddit, I can tell you. Good luck with all your boys on the Ninja Creamy Reddit. Hi, guys. New to this community. Are you guys excited about a working man?

Uh, well, thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. C.R., thank you. It's just so nice to be with you. Thank you for having me. I'd like to say thank you to David Lynch for everything that he has contributed to art

and the world of movies, because he is a one of one. We will be back next week, the three of us, with our first movie auction of 2025. How are you feeling about that? Should we, can we offer an apology for the Noah Baumbach film that we forgot? Well, you could just, you could just buy it. I'll try to buy it,

but I just, I'd like to apologize to Noah Baumbach. We made a big mistake in our anticipated movies episode. Did you clock that? I was in the control room when you guys were talking about Kelly Ryker, and I didn't want to be in there anymore, because I didn't want to... I was so upset on behalf of Noah. Yeah, you were like, it should be a man on this list,

and not a woman. Where is Noah Baumbach? Kelly Ryker's contemporary. Yeah, we forgot about Jay Kelly, which is the new movie starring George Clooney. And who's the other male lead? There's another huge male lead in the movie. Can't even remember at this point. Is it Adam Sandler? You know, George Clooney claims he cuts his own hair? Really?

I mean, what's the process? Is he using electric? He says it takes him five minutes. He's been cutting his own hair for 25 years. Trying to wrap this episode up, see you. But is it scissors? Is it a, what do they call this? We'll talk off the mic.

Thank you. David Lynch. Okay, good night, see you guys, bye.