The Big Picture - The Magic of ‘Air’ and the Return of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

At long last! Sean and Amanda dive deep on Ben Affleck’s ‘Air,’ the story of how Michael Jordan signed to Nike and the men who made it happen (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by Sam Jones to discuss his new documentary, ‘Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed’ (58:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Guest: Sam Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, longtime writer with The Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about air! We did it! Later in this show, I'll be joined by Sam Jones to talk about his new documentary, Jason Isbell, Running With Our Eyes Closed. This is the first film in season two of the Ringer's Music Box documentary series. I worked on this movie, so I am, of course, a little bit biased, but whether you're an Isbell fan or not,

I think this is an amazing document of an artist at work as his personal and professional life collides in real time. I hope you'll stick around for my conversation with Sam. He's great. Watch the film. It's available now on HBO Max. Amanda, you saw it. I did get to see it. I am still a little biased, but I didn't work on it and I loved it. I think

it's fascinating. A great portrait of music and also a marriage. Check it out. Absolutely. Thank you, Amanda, for supporting us. First, huge day. We've been thinking about Matt and Ben for years on this show. We've been wishing and hoping and praying for a proper reunion bigger than the last duel which we got a few years back. I'm still grateful for the last duel.

I am too. But this is something different. This of course is arguably the ultimate ringer movie. It's a Matt Damon and Ben Affleck movie about Michael Jordan

being signed to Nike and it's here. It's in movie theaters. It's arrived. It's an adult drama with our favorite movie stars and maybe one of our favorite directors about the NBA and also capitalism.

So opening gambit, what'd you think of Air? I'm so stressed out right now. I mean, I had to know. It was great. It was so enjoyable. Ben Affleck, I love you. You're a great director. Keep making movies that people over the age of 30 want to watch.

You know what I'm saying? I see you. I appreciate you. I rewatched The Town last night just because I had an excuse. Had the house to myself. I was like, let me just put on The Town. And I realized that he was basically my age when he directed The Town. And then I felt really bad about myself for a while. So Ben Affleck, congratulations on all you've done with

your life. You're in mourning of some kind right now. This is a really enjoyable movie about marketing and about selling a shoe. And I have been working on my feelings about that for several weeks. And I kind of expected everyone else to be like, oh my God, he made a movie about a shoe, like whatever. And the reviews are like damn near rapturous because this is such a rare thing, which is like a clever, well-written,

like well-paced, well-made movie starring real movie stars. It's essentially corny money ball. And everyone's like, oh, we actually like it when people we like sit together in rooms and talk about stuff with charisma. And so because everyone else likes it, I am now being like, okay, but what about the whole thing where it's an ad? You know? And then I hate myself because all I want is for Ben Affleck to make movies like this. And all I want is Ben Affleck and Matt Damon in the world thriving. Their appearance together on the Bill Simmons podcast was the greatest, what, 93 minutes of my life recently. I have so many follow-up questions about Jennifer Lopez watching Yellowstone

and then sending Instagram clips of it to Ben Affleck, but whatever. I'm so grateful and so conflicted. So I want to ask as an act of generosity and also just to get through this podcast to table the anxiety and angst that you may have and that I have to some extent too about the commercial aspect of the movie,

the sort of marketing aspect of the movie the the sort of marketing aspect of the movie because it is essential but I think it's actually a good end cap on the conversation because let's like let's focus on the text first right but the text is like hey we sold the shoe you know it is yeah but the text literally involves like phil knight's principles for nike it written in like large and sort of poorly designed uh text in a big poster in the room and they they close up on on all of his like corporate principles and they use them almost as like chapter heads for the movie yeah okay i feel like you're hanging on by a string here. This is amazing. I just... It's okay.

It's a movie. It's coming out. Yeah, and I... But this is the thing. I really liked it and it is... It is... It's an ad

not just for Nike and not just for shoes, which is, like, fine and cool and this does capture a major pop cultural moment in terms of, like, sneaker culture or, certainly athlete participation in, you know, profit participation and really like getting paid

for their image. And then also just like celebrities as like brands, which is a thing that interests me. So all of that is, if not high-minded, then at least like notable sociological study things that I'm interested in. But then there's a part of it that's just like, aren't corporations great? And I really, I have a hard time with that. I think there is perhaps a delineation between those two things. I'm not sure that the takeaway is aren't corporations great i do think that there is an overwhelming admiration for the achievements of the men who worked for nike and so like we haven't we've hardly even mentioned matt damon's name but matt damon is the star of the movie he plays sonny vaccaro who is this sort of you know

consigliere master of the basketball forces at n in the 80s, when in fact, Nike was not a very strong basketball brand. And so the setup for the film is that with Nike running firmly in third or maybe even fourth place in the great sneaker wars of the 1980s, as the NBA is just about to arrive at this moment of prominence in our culture, you know, because in the early 80s and 70s, it still was a second class sport in many ways nationally. And as it's about to ascend with Bird and Magic and then ultimately Michael Jordan, Nike is making a bid to join the big boys of Converse and Adidas. And they know that they need an athlete. And Sonny Vaccaro is the person who has been tasked with developing this entire branch of the company really by fusing relationships to marketing and product.

And it seems like he sucks at his job. And the way that the film presents it is that he's kind of a sad sack. He's a divorced middle-aged guy. He's got a belly that hangs over his belt and it's Matt Damon, ugly finding himself as he has a few times in the past. And he's very good at this. He's very good at kind of like shrinking down and de-glamorizing and seeming like a regular guy. And so the movie, you know, he's not the only person that the movie focuses on in that respect. Rob Strasser, who's played by Jason Bateman, is another similar figure. He's just a marketing executive at a sneaker company.

Even Phil Knight, who is himself an entrepreneur and a legendary figure in American business, at this stage of the film and the way Affleck portrays him is like, even though he's successful, kind of a schnook salesman. And so choosing these guys, I agree with you, as our heroes is a little odd and a little discomforting when you really analyze it. But I think whether or not you should go along for the ride is an interesting question about this movie. Because I do feel that a lot of the reviews that you're citing are doing that they're saying sort of like can you check your brain you're kind of your suspicion your your doubt about commercial propaganda at the door so that you can go back to what feels like a movie that we used to get which is something we always pine for on the show because if you forget that nike is a real company that exists and imagine

this as a journey into a foreign land that has been created by an author. You've been doing really well, but now like you're blushing a little bit. Like you can't get past. Well, look, I'm as skeptical of mega corporations as anybody. And I work for one. I know. So I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I don't want that to discolor the kind of glee and like the joy that I got while watching the movie. There is a kind of magic in a Ben Affleck directed character drama.

And that's what this is. I said Moneyball for a reason, which it does have that sort of guys like against the system sitting in a room there is I thought like a pretty conscious reference to that scene of all the scouts around the table in Moneyball um with Matt Damon they're trying to figure out who their draft pick should be and there's not a lot of you know it's like the fail son version of of that which is also very funny and you root for certainly Matt Damon but like even the Jason Bateman character who is just sort of like a marketing guy who has a very affecting speech about how sneakers connect him with his daughter like through a divorce which on the one hand is like oh my god and on the other hand I they had me. They had me in this moment.

So everything about it, it's just people who are really good at this, making it look easy and making it enjoyable. And I think identifying not just cultural turning points, but also there's a speech that matt damon gives at the end that is like a very rousing emotional like higher values sort of speech that like only someone like matt damon can give and they really do land the plane so it does transcend all of its trappings but you and i saw it in...

Okay, we'll talk about it later. You want to talk about the movie first. I do. I mean, I think... Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. We should. I think all of those things that you're describing are relevant

and what relationship the film itself and its creators have to some of those ideas of doubt and how much of this film is an active, rousing drama and how much of it is a subtle winking, not quite satire, but it has an awareness. You know, Affleck uses a lot of tools at his disposal. When we saw the trailer for this movie, I thought it looked pretty bad and I got nervous

that, and I don't just mean like the story was going to be bad. I thought like visually it didn't, it felt a little bit cheap looking. It was cut oddly in the trailer. And when I saw the film, I was kind of, I had like the exact opposite experience where I thought that there was a lot of thoughtfulness and not subtlety because it over emphasizes the 1984-ness. There is this, the film opens with these kind of like this fast cutting montage of all of these memorable moments to kind of take you back. It's a little bit of a cheap move, but I think it's a move that is effective. There are wall-to-wall needle drops in the movie. The production design and the costuming is very overtly 1984. It's shot by Robert Richardson, you know, famed cinematographer who's worked with Oliver Stone and Quentin Tarantino,

like one of the best cinematographers working in the game. And so the movie has this kind of like outsized approach. It's almost like a fantastical approach to recreating the 1980s. Ben Affleck's characterization of Phil Knight is comic. It's fully comic. Like you don't even believe that that could be a real person. If you look back at video footage of Phil Knight, he was kind of like that. But that's the thing is it's a movie about outsized characters. And then of course, there's the critical decision to not really feature Michael Jordan in a film about the pursuit of Michael Jordan. You know, there is an actor who portrays him, but we only see him from behind. He has very few speaking lines. There's been this very obvious choice made to not let Michael's aura as a cultural figure overwhelm the story. And I thought that that was a good choice.

What did you think about that? Absolutely. Because otherwise it becomes sort of schmaltzy, dramatic recreation. And we have so much footage of Michael Jordan, obviously, like we know the real thing, but especially coming, what, three years after The Last Dance, which I believe, so this script is written by um alex converee who has been giving interviews saying that like he watched the last dance and was like oh this tiny bit could be a movie so if you're already pulling from the real

thing and just and some absolutely transcendent michael jordan footage past and and present nothing like a recreation is just going to fall flat. Yeah. There's some, the film itself becomes less about, you know, MJ and even basketball. We do see some images of MJ playing basketball,

but it's not really even, when the film, I should say this, the film opens with Sonny Vaccaro, Damon's character at a basketball tournament. And I thought that we were going to be spending more time in that world, a kind of like blue-chipsy scouting kind of world that blended a little bit more of that Moneyball touch

that you're talking about. But it's not. It's really more of a fact-finding mission movie. And it has some of the... It's a little bit of a detective story in a way because, you know, Vaccaro is constantly seeking out voices who can give him clues for how to succeed in his quest to nail down mj so you know marlon wayans plays this real person named george raveling who is also featured in the last dance who is an assistant

coach with the u.s men's basketball team in the 80s and who is this kind of godfather figure to a generation of successful basketball players so he gets a kind of standalone conversation in a bar with damon and he reveals something and then they use really weighty material in the form of uh a very historic speech by martin luther king as this like connection point to how Damon should pursue MJ to sign with this apparel company so that he has his own sneaker. And so on the one hand, like Affleck knows how to bring a gravitas to sequences,

but to your opening points, when you really examine what is being used to tell the story of signing to the sneaker company, it's a little bit unnerving. It's a little bit like, is this the right way to tell this? But it is like a lot of that story is true.

So how do you make sense of that? So a name I don't believe we've said yet is Viola Davis, who plays Michael Jordan's mother, Dolores. And Affleck has been saying that that was Michael Jordan's pick that they met. And Michael Jordan had one name. To portray his mom. Yes, to portray his mom. And she is, I think, phenomenal in this movie. I mean, which is not surprising.

It's Viola Davis. But, you know, even by her standards, though, it's like she makes the movie seem 20% better. Yeah. And the movie does a crucial thing, which is, and I guess this is like a spoiler, both because they do use this as like the final act, like almost reveal or kind of linchpin moment.

But this is also like why this story is, you know, historically important and why you know about Air Jordans, which is that the family agrees to, or Michael Jordan agrees to go with Nike if he gets a percentage of all sales. And the way they do it in the movie is that Viola Davis does that over the phone with Matt Damon. And I think both the way they handle that negotiation, which is just like it's a huge moment for that quiet, but also like you see the historical significance of what that is in just her one reaction shot in the kitchen, in the phone. I think the movie handles that really well. The only thing that sticks out is that, you know,

she's like the supporting character as opposed to being the main character in this story of how, you know, Michael Jordan became, like, well, not Michael Jordan, financially Michael Jordan. How about that? Yeah, no, I think that's right. Which is, like, a big part of being Michael Jordan. No, I mean, the bulk of his wealth has been generated in part by dint of this deal, not by his playing days in the NBA. And so, you know, that's an interesting way to frame it, which is what if this was the story of Michael Jordan's mom, who has lived a fascinating and complex and tragic life. And, you know, I don't know what's a better movie. That's not the movie that they decided to make.

They decided to make this movie about these men. And it's a movie that is extremely effective, but you're right that when someone enters the frame who's kind of outside the orbit of the story, it's distracting because the movie and because it's a Ben Affleck movie funded by Amazon,

it is just constantly inserting overqualified people in parts that feel like this could well have been an HBO TV movie circa 2002. You know, it's a pure docudrama, and it's a docudrama about a sneaker company. And so there have been a lot of movies like this in the past. We're obviously experiencing this glut that we've been discussing recently, and that's more a signal of what's going on in Hollywood at the moment.

But, I mean, Bateman struck me as very similar in this film where I mean he has kind of a nothing part he's just sort of like the support it like the backbone of Damon's you know flailing fledgling basketball you know sneaker

executive he gets a couple of big speeches but you know not to put too fine a point on it Jason Bateman just rocks like he's just good and everything and so he's just really good in this he's really funny he's really affecting when he needs to be and you know, not to put too fine a point on it, Jason Bateman just rocks. Like, he's just good in everything. And so he's just really good in this.

He's really funny. He's really affecting when he needs to be. And, you know, Viola Davis plays a similar role. Marlon Wayans, who I think is an underrated dramatic actor, plays a very similar role. And Chris Tucker, who's like a full-blown comic movie star, has also kind of a nothing part with three scenes that he, you know, apparently was able to rewrite himself

and brings a kind of energy and pace and wit to the movie so when you look at the sum of its parts you're like wow there's like eight movie stars in this movie yeah but so you said that this is like the kind of movie that could have been like an hbo docudrama in 2005 except for the fact that it has all these people that That's actually the secret. Most adult dramas could just be the bad, low-budget version of them. And in fact, what we see on streaming now is the bad, low-budget version. And the difference is, movie stars are movie stars for a reason. Good actors spending money on production design, on cinematographers.

Like, there is a difference between the good version of the thing and the bad version of the thing. And that's like why- Or the mediocre version. I think that's the thing. It's like, there could have been a perfectly passable version of this movie

that did not have a podcast episode dedicated to it. You know what I mean? Right. And also probably didn't cost as much. Right. This is a $90 million movie, by the way. course and you can tell but like i feel like we talk about oh movies like this aren't like made all the time or aren't made anymore but then we also

talk about all the mediocre versions that get dumped on screen streaming because people only want to spend 20 or 30 million and we're like wow 90 million is a lot that's what it costs sorry yeah there's a difference like there is such a thing as quality there is a difference between the mediocre version and the good version of the thing this is the good version of the thing the thing that gives me angst about that is that there are a lot of very expensive main like mainstream streamer movies that cost all that money but that are also not good this to me is like this movie is good if you don't think this movie is good you're lying to yourself now you may have some moral pangs of doubt about whether or not it should have been made or what it's celebrating but it is no doubt well made

of course it should have been made it's not that i don't mean just you i just mean like the public at large or anybody who is watching the movie yeah um you know in addition to the fact that it has jason bateman and chris messina very funny as David Falk, Michael Jordan's agent and Viola Davis and all of these great supporting performances. You know, it's a it's a Matt Damon starring vehicle. And this is basically like as good as Matt Damon can be in a movie. Yeah. As I was watching it, I thought it was like the perfect fusion of two skills he has, which is the guy with the extraordinary skill that you're like, just like Good Will Hunting

had a brilliance to him, just like the guy from The Martian had a brilliance to him. And also, the kind of funny loser character that he occasionally plays, like the guy in The Informant. And they just smash

those two guys together. And it's like an A-plus Damon for me. And the movie does not work if you don't have somebody who you're rooting for because Sonny Vaccaro in real life, he's a complicated guy and he's not an angel at all.

And in terms of like whether or not this movie should have been made, using him as like the leader of this revolution in athlete participation and in, you know, resetting the table

in terms of corporate America and apparel, he's a dubious figure in some respects. So to me, it's borderline miraculous what Damon's able to do. But that's kind of the genius of his movie stardom is his regularness is a superpower. And you can also feel him being directed by Affleck.

Yeah, and he and Affleck get scenes together and are paired against each other and they are like he's not sparring but it is like the same friendship that you know we have all enjoyed publicly for like 30 years now crystallized in the movie and you know damon's character is making fun of like phil knight's penchant for you know buddhist aphorisms and phil knight is just being like, I, what are you doing? I need to fire you like all the time. It's like, it's, it's a very funny patter that, you know, I sometimes think we take for granted because not everyone,

you know, has that kind of chemistry. It is metatextual too. And you can imagine these two guys kind of bickering over things over their many years friendship. Well, it's also metatextual in terms of, you know, artist equity and the company that they're trying to create, which I like. I like that they're saying something ish with their with with the movie about what they're trying to do. So this that point, which I completely agree with, I think actually speaks to some of my feelings about their thoughts on the commodity desire that is at the heart of the movie. Because so they raised $100 million from Redbird Capital to fund this new company, Artist Equity, that you mentioned.

And the idea is to kind of reinvent profit sharing amongst artists working on films. And that includes people both above and below the line and creating a slightly more equitable post-streaming wars marketplace for Hollywood. And they're trying to do so, I think, with largely non-IP, pure IP-driven stories, non-hard genre stories.

They're trying to do dramas. They're trying to get back to the kinds of movies that they like, that they got their start in as actors. And there is clearly a bit of winking commentary They're trying to do dramas. They're trying to get back to the kinds of movies that they like, that they got their start in as actors. And there is clearly a bit of winking commentary about the fact that artist participation and image likeness is this first film. And so, and you know, I think about this all the time. Affleck is like one of my favorite people to watch talk publicly. I think he's just incredibly smart, kind of like very openly self-loathing,

but also has a huge ego, so you can imagine why I relate to him. Thinks he knows everything. And in some respects, he does know everything about certain parts of the world. And he's really, he's well-read

and has hard opinions about things. Yeah. He's really mad about injustice in the world. He's really mad about greed. But also, he's more than happy to literally make a movie called Paycheck. You know what I mean?

Like he is this incredible confusion of a man, let alone all of the kind of tablet aspect of his life, his marriages, his, you know, the way he is captured publicly, his tattoo, like all of those things that we have observed over the years. And so knowing that he has this living, magnificent contradiction, I have to feel like he's kind of like flipping himself off by making this movie. There's a part of me that is like, is this some sort of weird post statement about wealth and fame and power? And perhaps I'm just reading too deeply into a movie that I really want to like, but I just think he's too

smart to not realize what is making you uncomfortable about the movie. Yeah, he knows about it, but he is also Ben Affleck who wants to be a successful director and who does participate in at least some of the Ben Affleck-ness that you were referencing. Is it incredible media critic? Like he should just have, he should be a permanent press box guest, you know, like it should now be the press box with Brian Curtis and Ben Affleck. He's amazing at it. And in a way that makes clear that he consumes it, understands it, as you said, has opinions about it, has opinions on how he has been used in it, but also in how other people get slurped up in it. So I think you're totally right. He's conscious of all of the contradictions in the movie, but he's also a guy who sold it to Amazon and is like, hey, we can, you know, have a successful

movie, launch this company this way. Like, it'll get me back in the, you know, the graces of the world. And I think he understands all the parts. And I don't know that he has quite the same squeamishness that you and I have about it, even as he knows what's going on. So, you know, I'm a very big fan of the band Rage Against the Machine. And one of the things that people often pointed to about Rage Against the Machine is that they were signed for many years to Sony. Sony Music

Entertainment and Sony released their records. In fact, all of their records have been released by Sony. They don't have an independent music career. They didn't come up through a punk label. They were a mainstream rock band that made vigilant, hardline, anti-capitalist, basically Maoist metal. And yet they worked hand in hand with a corporation that helped them gain wealth and spread their message.

I do not think Ben Affleck is raging against the machine. That's not the point I'm trying to make. But I think that radical and weird artists sometimes make these negotiations with themselves to do both things, to do what you're suggesting, which is for Ben Affleck to better his personal situation. How do I get back to being the Oscar-winning always thought Warren Beatty was an artist who did this very well, who was kind of actively participating in the game of Hollywood, but also felt like it was really stupid and he was smarter than everybody. So this is a really funny document in that respect

because he's also doing it with all of his friends. You know, he's doing it with Bateman and Damon and Messina and he's using a young screenwriter script and kind of like molding that script to shape a vision that is personal to him. This is a tour work. Like this is the stuff I'm super into. Like I'm very passionate about guys who do this sort of thing.

And I was talking with Adam Neiman, who also reviewed this movie, I thought quite well for The Ringer. And we were talking about the forthcoming Boa's Afraid and Babylon and how we're in this kind of era where younger auteurs are kind of being like is this going to be my last shot because if it is I have to throw everything I have at the wall and and Affleck is at a different moment yeah you know he's like I already made Argo I want to have fun and I want to be mainstream but I want to do it on my own particular terms and so I don't know I mean maybe we can use that as the entree to the sneaker of it all.

Because, of course, the movie has a happy ending, at least for Michael Jordan. And also for me at 13, getting my first pair of Air Jordans, you know? Is the sneaker the hang-up for you? I don't think the sneaker itself and the product is the hang-up for me. I think the movie does a really nice job particularly in the scenes uh portraying peter moore um who matthew marr portrays as the designer of the sneaker there is there is a kind of creativity in action in the movie which i like yeah you don't have to sell me on fashion as creativity or art or, you know, or culturally significant.

Like, I get it. I also. Yeah. I like how the movie renders it, too. Totally. You know, like, you guys in a room, they have ideas. They're talking about them. It's like the, it's the sneaker version of the Devil Wears Prada scene with, like, the, you know, the blue starts here and then filters down into the, you know, the speech.

Very similar. And it kind of dumbs it down a little bit. Yeah. But makes it legible for a common audience. Um, so it's not, it's, it's certainly not that part. And I, like most red blooded Americans, I have an, an appreciation for the, the majesty of the Air Jordan. Um, I'm a threes guy personally. Okay. But the one is widely considered a breakthrough in style and in sneaker design. And so it's not like specifically about the sneaker. No.

But Air Jordan like changed American consumer culture. And it created, I thought that there was a little bit of like backloading the ideas that we have about it now into Dolores Jordan in the film. The idea that she, at a certain point in the film, says something along the lines of, a lot of young kids and a lot of young black kids are going to want to spend their money on your product. And so my son should be compensated for that desire that he's creating for them. She may have said those exact words at that time, but I think that that is something that very quickly became clear when Air Jordan became the most desirable product in the marketplace, when there were lines around the block to buy Jordans, and when kids who didn't have any money,

you know, middle class, lower class, what have you, forget about the demographics, were willing to spend all their allowance or all the money that they could scrounge together from their job on a pair of Air Jordans. And then that creates this weird distortion effect where poor people desperately want something that isn't going to meaningfully improve their lives. So it's like a complex socioeconomic idea

that I would say the movie is not fully prepared to handle or even engage with but it it grazes it and so because it does that actually that is the thing that made me a little uncomfortable okay interesting i don't think my objection is that the movie doesn't examine the consequences of consumerism and a capitalist culture. You know, like, I take your point. I also would not expect that from this movie. And I, I don't know, I guess I like other types of shoes a lot.

Like, I don't really care. Like, you know, and I, intellectually, I share your queasiness, but like, you know, whatever. I think that Air Jordans are like hugely significant and to explain them in that sort of like that accessible devil wears Prada way is I think a cool aim of a movie. I, my issue is with,

I, I think the corporate culture of it. Um, and this really being an, um, My issue is with, I think, the corporate culture of it. And this really being a movie, not just an ad for. And the first shot of the Air Jordan is beautiful. And it's also like, can you imagine how many Nike people were on set? I have no idea. But you just, it's so art directed to be like here it is here's our perfect shoe and it's perfect and you know beautiful things deserve beautiful um cinematography but I don't

that's it's it's not the Jordan it's just there's so much baked into this movie that is like, that is about, isn't it great when a company finds its purpose and then gets to be a company, you know, and companies are great. And I, part of that might just be that I'm like hugely, hugely allergic to all forms of corporate culture, as you know, from dealing with me. And I'm the person like would rather die than sit through a slideshow, a deck or whatever. And so the deck aspects of this movie, which there are some, just really, really rub me the wrong way. But I was trying to think of other money movies know movies about businesses or people trying to make it or you know like I love a movie about capitalism but when else have I been watching a movie where it's like yay the company wins you know well even your thing about like Nike you know needed to get the

basketball market or whatever like Nike was selling so many running shoes and they like it was fine you know it was a company yeah I shoes and they like it was fine you know it was a company yeah i get it i get it but like this positioning of it is like the underdog like going against the system like respectfully i i think it's really i'll let me put it to you this way you love moneyball right love moneyball yeah moneyball is about a corporation right it's about a cool guy who worked for a corporation named Billy Bean who was thoughtful and had radical ideas. Right. That were exciting to follow.

But the Oakland A's are a business. And in fact, they're one of the worst run and most, one of the worst businesses in baseball because they refuse to spend money on their team and treat their fans like shit so that they can profit participate from the baseball system that has been designed because they are a small market. We don't think about that or talk about because they are a small market. Right. We don't think about that or talk about that when we celebrate Moneyball. Also, he doesn't win in the movie. I mean, they win a lot of things, but it's not like— I mean, Billy Bean does. He gets paid millions and millions of dollars over the course of 25 years.

Okay, but— And he's a corporate executive. Yeah, but in the— Okay, listen. It's not my fault that he works for— He finally took the money from the Red Sox guy and is like ruining the Premier League or whatever. But in the context of the movie, you understand what I'm saying.

In the narrative arc of the movie, he doesn't quite win. And it's him even against the system of the corporation. I think it's just a question of whether or not we can separate the overwhelming iconography of Nike from Sonny Vaccaro, the man who is the star and emotional lodestar of the movie. Right. Because if you let the movie be about Sonny Vaccaro, and to some extent Dolores Jordan, then you'll have a different relationship to it than if you let it be a movie about Air Jordans. Because if you let it be, your mileage may vary on this.

Everybody is going to view it differently. I think that most movies that are about corporations are usually about how they're bad and how they have hurt people. You know, the kind of Silkwood style movie about the nuclear power plant.

This is an unusual case where we are all applauding at the end of it. And there are a couple of movies coming out later this year that I think are going to be interesting contrast to this. Like the Flame and Cheetos movie that

is coming in June. The Blackberry movie that is kind of an inversion of this story that's coming in May. Tetris, which is out. And it's like, Tetris is this done poorly. Yes, agree. But even Tetris, like, I don't Is there, like, is Tetris

the name of the corporation? Who is the corporation that owns Tetris, like, I don't, is there like, like, is Tetris the name of the corporation? Who is the corporation that owns Tetris? We don't really have a relationship to that. It's the same way we do with Nike. Nike is just, it is. Sean, what if I told you it's the Soviet Union? Tetris was, maybe we'll talk more about Tetris next week. Tetris is not successful. It's mind boggling. I think that's part of the reason why we had all that angst in that dungeons and dragons conversation because when we're trying to use these things but i what

i'm trying to point out is just like this isn't the first time this has happened you know the money ball is actually not exactly what we think of it's not just brad pitt being a beautiful rebel executive person who you know has a cute daughter and you know totally it's a movie about money it's got it in the title i understand that and how you use the money but the positioning of brad pitt's character to the corporation is slightly different even like the branding like the you know this just has a lot of nike stuff in it it's also very funny every time they do like the establishing shots of the other companies you know they've clearly they've also got those logos like painted on that like you know I guess it's not a weird Atlanta office park but a greater Los Angeles area office park but they've got the Converse logo just so they've got the

Adidas logo just so there is something that feels very 2023 about the way they're interacting with the corporate brand that is Nike and I should say you and I saw this in a room that you described to me as full of sports influencers uh I mean Rich Eisen and Colin Cowher were sitting on either end of us so yeah I obviously did not recognize those people but we were there with a lot of people who were cheering when the Air Jordan, like, showed up on the screen. And who cheered at one of the, like, kind of the cards at the end that said, you know, in 2003 or whatever, Nike bought Converse. And everyone's like, yeah, corporate acquisition. Like, that literally got applause. Which, like, sure sure you know like congratulations

to everyone i like except for the people who lost jobs i like i don't care but it we saw it in a room that almost felt you know like influencer corporated out a bit which is a part of this movie and i was you know or at least the marketing of this movie. And maybe responding to that a little bit. Yeah, it was weird. I mean, I don't think that there's, there's no doubt that there is an emotional conflict at the heart of enjoying this movie, but most people are not going to view it that way.

And most people are not suspicious of this kind of corporate culture because it's just the fact of their life. And so I think there's a reason why a lot of these movies are being made and are probably going to mostly be successful um tetra's notwithstanding because air jordans are cool they remain cool yeah nearly 40 years after this movie's story takes place which is just an absolutely fascinating thing um you know you're an atlanta resident i can i can feel the coca-cola

movie in production you know like i can feel that this is a trend that is probably here to stay. Now, not all of these movies will have Ben Affleck behind the camera and Matt Damon in front of the camera, but maybe a lot of them will. What is the story of the Coca-Cola? I don't know. Let's invent one.

I mean, do you, the story, have you ever been to the Coca-Cola museum? Oh, I think I read some, I haven't, but I think I read something about New Coke being the premise for maybe like a black blacklist script or something like that oh yeah you know like there have been ups and downs in these corporations and then they have risen again to serve sugar just getting like a madman episode about the polar bears like you know i mean that's that's possible too oh yeah um you're right it's happening i don't love it but i i actually did enjoy this movie a lot

despite all i'm happy for everyone it's the kind of thing where it's like okay you guys can get away with this once if i gotta see the rest of all of them i live in hell you know uh box office this movie's tracking between 12 and 20 million dollars it is running up against the super mario brothers movie juggernaut did mario uh did i you just said super mario instead of super mario i don't think i did but we'll uh bobby super mario super mario you did say you did say yeah i'd like to apologize to the mario brothers for my grave error um they don't need my apology though because brooklyn and not boston as you told me they did not tell you they're from Boston. When did I tell you that? Maybe Bobby did?

I would never make such... No, no. In the lore that I was researching, it said that they were just straight from Italy. So I think they just changed it to fit whatever they think is going to pull the best in theaters. I saw the film. I know. It's thriving out my window. Thank you to Mario and Luigi.

It's thriving. It's thriving and it's going to kick air's ass at the box office. And so even though they played this corporate game to use well-known IP to get their movie made for artist equity, they're still going to get trounced by a greater form of IP in the marketplace. And yet, Rapturous Reviews, you and I walked out and we were like that's not an oscar movie but a lot of people are saying to the contrary is it just because we've been on like ben affleck corner island like whatever for so long and everyone else is catching up do you think that's motivating it at all where i'm like what are you talking about of course ben affleck is one of the

great directors and presences of our of our time certainly i'm like we need to do an hour on the way back you know like that's that's how i think about every affleck project he has a movie coming out in may called hypnotic are you aware of this yes robert rodriguez movie which just does not look very good but i'm ready to build an episode around it why not um so yeah maybe to your point we're just we're affleck pilled and because of that we were like that's a good movie yeah but it is not the town and you know he has had his Argo moment on the other hand

movies that are released early in the year we have learned now have a better chance of competing for Oscars this movie is going to be living on Amazon for a long long time when it leaves movie theaters so

it'll be easily accessible and it will be widely seen this is it's going to be very easy to get people to click play when they open up Prime Video. And you know, it does have very good performances. It does have a good script. It is well-made. It looks good. So I can't rule it out. You're going to rule it out? I'm not ruling anything out after this year and i would absolutely love six to nine months of ben affleck on the oscar campaign trail matt damon on the oscar campaign trail matt and ben together on the oscar trail which we have not seen

since i was 14 years old i'm you know my heart is a flutter right now. So Matt Damon has never won an acting Oscar, right? Matt Damon wins this acting Oscar and I think he's wonderful in this film. But if this is what he wins the Oscar for, that'll be the Oscar-iest nonsense of all time. Damon was nominated for Best Actor for Good Will Hunting. He was nominated for Supporting Actor for Invictus, which is your favorite of all time. Damon was nominated for Best Actor for Good Will Hunting. He was nominated

for Supporting Actor for Invictus, which is your favorite of his performances. He was nominated for Lead Actor for The Martian. And, of course,

he won Screenplay for Good Will Hunting and he was nominated for Best Picture for Manchester by the Sea, which he produced. I don't know. It's not crazy.

He's going to win one. He's a favorite son yeah he's one of those guys he's got 20 movies that people are like i like that movie not a lot of people can say that that's true he does a transformation it's but it's so early though and what else okay so we've got i guess leo would run in supporting for killers of the flower moon but you've got plemons already oscar nominated and. And people love Plemons. They do. I love me some Plemons.

Yeah. Joaquin, back. Napoleon. I thought you were going to say for Joker, fully I do. That's not till next year. Is that true? Yeah, because I checked the date.

They wrapped production. I understand that. I too looked at the photos that you texted me. They all look like you being mad about something that's really rude i don't wear that much black that's true or that much uh face makeup yeah anyway okay who else is definitely i mean adam driver and ferrari i guess is a possibility yeah um mean, who are the usual suspects?

Is there a Denzel movie this year? I think Equalizer 3 is the Denzel movie this year, so that's probably not going to qualify. I don't know. It definitely feels possible. Sure. It definitely feels possible. And same with Viola for supporting.

It definitely feels possible. Absolutely. She's putting in the work, so I could see it. If this movie makes like $32 million at the box office, should we just punt on Hollywood? Like what's, what does that, what does that tell us? Like that people don't want anything that we say is what was best? No, I'm going to go the other way. I'm going to say that like we were so right for so long that we began to doubt our own instincts, you know, and everyone else caught up with us.

This is what air feels like to me. It's a little bit just like everyone catching up. Yeah. This this is your i wouldn't want to be a member of a club exactly it would have me as a member exactly yeah i'm just kind of weirded out by it which is also my problem with corporations i think um but or one of them one of many what about matt and ben you want them to keep making movies together yeah it's delightful they seem to be having so much fun yeah and that also like kind of animates it. It's everyone who's talked about this experience is like, yeah, I had a great time. It's really fun.

And they seem to like have, you know, fire in their bellies to do it. And it's good vibes. Again, part of what we are missing when we talk about they don't make movies like this anymore obviously like movie stars you know good scripts production design but also vibes just like people hanging out and you want to hang out with them so keep doing it this was their ninth collaboration yeah what kind of a movie would you want them to make now because they've done period piece they've done pure comedy, they've done character drama. You know, they were part of the young cast

of School Ties together. Do they both have to be in it? Not necessarily. Yeah. What if Damon directs Affleck? Does he want to direct? He says he doesn't. Yeah.

He was, like, thinking about it for a while. Was he going to maybe direct Manchester by the Sea and then he wasn't anymore? Perhaps. I think he was going to be the star and then he felt like

he got too old. I think it was Promised Land that he was going to direct which he co-wrote with Krasinski. No, I think it's Gus Van Zandt

who directed it ultimately. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, okay. I believe so. No, that sounds right. I don't know. What do i want them to do you want them to play siegfried and roy together no i don't actually you don't think that would

be funny i don't know that i need them to be like purposefully funny i just whispered one of the greatest ideas in the history of movies to you on a podcast about matt damon and ben affleck playing siegfried and roy and you just immediately like no that's not what I want for that I should be paid 100 million dollars for saying that publicly that's how I feel about that idea

that I just shared with you why don't you just say rounders too which is like I know they're nosing around on that I know you know

they're floating it it's a tough one I have a lot of information about that that I'm not allowed to publicly share not about the current state of it

but about things from the past so I don't know how they're going to get that going but if they get it going, pfft. Fuck.

Okay. Wow. You've seen Rounders? Yes. Oh my God. I know. And Affleck, gambler that he is.

I know. My word. Like, carve it out for me. Obviously, Mike McPhee is back. Yeah. He's sitting at the tables. What is, who is Affleck playing?

Like a Hellmuth style, like, I don't know if you know Phil Hellmuth, like, asshole, like, rival gambler. I don't. Phil Hellmuth is a wonderful figure. Or is he, like, an old friend from the past, like, worm but worse, you know? Or is he... No, he's not an old friend. Is he his partner in a law firm that he's blown up because he's gone back to gambling? No, I think he has to be a gambler in like a like a knowing affleck supporting performance just like phil knight

just like he did in last duel just like he does in goodwill hunting a little bit it works best when matt is the anchor of the movie and affleck just gets to show up to be like a variation on affleck he's so funny in air. He's so funny. His like going for a little run and having a thought sequence. Just fantastic. His little shorts. Yeah, I love that. He's so great. Rounders 2, that sounds good. Okay. I'm willing to put in $500 million of my own personal wealth into Rounders 2. That's something I'm willing to commit to right now. That's good. That is how much it should cost. Let's remember what we were talking about we got to pay robert richardson we got to get viola davis in the

cast you know who else should we add to rounders too to to just amp it up i'm thinking you know what is jennifer lopez is olivia de havelin still alive you know like who can we who can we get out that just hasn't worked in a few years just get them up on the board j-lo would be great yeah who would j-lo play um i i don't know whether it love interest for damon well i was gonna say a past love interest for damon but like i don't i i don't know whether that's plausible i don't know because you wouldn't buy it yeah you know shots fired well a little bit because of like the in text you know if affleck is also in the movie like we're bringing ourselves to rounders too you know which is part of the beauty of what if she's a rival gambler she could be all of them at the table together strong women

yeah the best player i ever played with in my whole life in my regular game all right okay she was amazing erin i played played with Erin every week for three years and she took so much fucking money off of me. Oh my God. Are you going to teach Alice how to play poker? Oh my God, of course.

Are you kidding? I don't, I mean, I was just asking. Yeah, weird temperamental quiet kid. She's perfect for the game. It's going to be amazing. I love her.

She's the greatest. Yeah, I could see J-Lo as a gambler. She has a kind of ferocity in her quiet. I would like to see Affleck and J-Lo as a gambler. She has a kind of ferocity in her quiet. I would like to see Affleck and J-Lo share the screen again. They deserve their own redemption, you know, on cinema as well as in life. Gigli 2.

No, I don't want Gigli 2. I'll direct it. Okay, great. I would love that, honestly. Sold. Thus far, I've committed my time to Gigli 2 and my $500 million to Rounders 2. Congratulations. What other sequel should we make with these folks?

You also got $100 million back for the Sigmund and Roy idea. That's the thing is I'm, you know, I'm trying to create my own artist equity, but it's just Sean equity where all of my hundreds of millions are being shared internally through myself. Is that 500 million coming from the JMO Patreon fund?

Because me and Chris have a veto there. So you got to get one of us. I have a right to my share, and we're capitalized well over $400 billion right now. So thanks to all the listeners for sending in all those donations. You know, on Arraignment Day, that was huge. You know, that episode was so good. Did you listen? To the Arraignment Day episode?

I listened to the episode where you dissected the legal findings both of that indictment and the Gwyneth Paltrow case. You know, a real one-two for the American justice system. Titled, I Wish You Well.

Yeah. It was really some of our best work. Yeah. It was beautiful. Any other thoughts about Matt and Ben or Air? Bob, you're going to see Air, right?

Yeah, of course. I'll see it. In a theater? In a theater. Yeah. I always go to the theater. I? Yeah, of course. I'll see it. In a theater? In a theater, yeah. I always go to the theater. I hate watching movies at home. I mean, I will if it's something that's never going to show in a theater, but I prefer to go to the theater.

It was a nice time at the movies. You're better than this. But it was a nice time at the movies. It was good. What do you want from me? You came in wielding a blade today. I'm surprised. I told you. I told you a in wielding a blade today i'm surprised i told you i told you a

year ago not a year ago full corporate shill at the theater should i like wear nike shoes nike shorts i you know i almost wore jordan's hat i almost wore jordan's in solidarity with my brothers matt and ben um and i wish i had now that i knew that their number one enemy i'm not their enemy i told you that that I felt really conflicted about this. And just also, you know, I know that I just need to advocate for the things that I like without scruples. I know that's what everyone else does.

That's how the Republicans win, you know? That's right. And that's how the world is terrible. They buy sneakers too, let's not forget. I should just come in and be like, you know, I love all corporations. I should just come in and be like, you know, I love all corporations. I should have turned this podcast into like a deck and just been like, here are all the reasons that I think corporate principles are great. That's your jam.

And is all your pods become decks that you sell. This could be a good ironic pivot for me and Amanda to just become insanely pro-corporation on the podcast. Like anytime we talk about a movie, we're like, really just congratulations to Amazon. You know, this is going to fund really well back into Whole Foods. I'm going to schedule one-on-ones with all our listeners. Just, you know, be like, I just want to tell you how much I love air and Nike. You guys act like I don't actively do this as part of my job every day.

You know what? I had the thought and then I held it back because I love you. I wasn't going to be like, you're a little bit of a suit, so you don't mind it as much. But here we are. Yeah. Maybe I'm just a realist about how to make a buck in this world. Have you guys considered that? I'm just trying to provide for my family.

We don't have 500 million to fund rounders too, but Sean does. That's right. That's true that's great yeah i'm i've just always been a corporatist that's what they've been saying about me since i was uh you know protesting you know private prisons in college um i liked air i don't know what to say you know i think you got a bad attitude and i liked air and i i love ben affleck and matt damon and i earnestly wish them, not the sarcastic Gwyneth Paltrow jam session version. Oh, yeah.

That was legendary. That was an unbelievable day. I heard from so many people in my life being like, Gwyneth Paltrow saying, I wish you well. It really kind of confirmed my existence. I was on a plane when that happened. I would have called you, actually. Because obviously, you were the first person I thought of. Thank you.

You know, I think she's an absolute demon, but I'm happy for her. I'm happy that she's been able to survive in this way. You could have still called her. You were on Air Force One advising Biden about the arraignment news. That's true. I was sitting next to Kamala, and we were talking about how excited we were about air. Great, the real power center, huh? Well, no.

They put me in the back row, unfortunately. But that's your trampling on Jambo. I'm sorry. We've talked about this. I'm sorry. All your common material needs to be held. You know, just like all your science material needs to be held. Listen, I enjoyed the FOMER.

And I hope Ben Affleck and Matt Damon and Artist's Equity make dozens more movies. Okay. Gut check. Will it win Best Picture? No. Bob? And I hope Ben Affleck and Matt Damon and Artist's Equity make dozens more movies. Okay. Gut check. Will it win Best Picture? No. Bob? Killers of the Flower Moon, bro.

Come on. Will it be nominated? Maybe. Ten nominees. You never know. Yeah. Has there been anything this year that comes close to feeling like it could be in that zone? Is this original or adapted screenplay?

It's not based on Shoe Dog, the Phil Knight book. Okay. Even though there's clearly huge chunks of Shoe Dog in it. I mean, I don't know. I assume it would be original. Okay. Because it's pulling from sources, but no key source. Although I wonder if that will be vetted by the WGA.

Right. Killers of the Flower Moon will be adapted. It shall. Is Napoleon original or adapted? I started listening to the Napoleon podcast. Did you? Age of Napoleon. Yes.

It's good. I'm glad you finally shared the title because it seems like there's a lot of listeners who thought that that was a fake thing that you were doing

but it's actually a real podcast. It's a huge show. It's a very popular show. It's very good. It's daunting though. It's like 300 episodes. I just put it on.

I had to walk Knox around forever because he was mad and so I just he was in his stroller and I was listening. I was learning about Napoleon. Should Spotify acquire Age of Napoleon? Yeah, why not? I mean, it is, it's history of a lot of places in Europe where they, they spend time.

I finally learned it. It answered a lot of my questions about the Holy Roman Empire and what's going on. We talked about this. If you have a lot of questions about the Holy Roman Empire, you's going on. We talked about this. If you have a lot of questions about the Holy Roman Empire, you should listen to History of Rome, which is another sensational

400-episode history podcast. But, so, I guess we didn't go that far back on the Holy Roman Empire because the Holy Roman Empire in the age of Napoleon or pre-Napoleon has, like, a pretty tenuous

connection to Rome itself. You know? That's true. Amanda, like, just leaned back and just, she already is like full Susan Sontag these days with the blazers and the doubting corporations. I haven't had this blazer for literally years. You've seen me wear this a million times.

But I just said could be perceived as a compliment. I don't know why you just reacted that way. When he walked up today, Sean was like, you look like a character from one of your favorite movies. And I was like, which one? And he's like, I don't know. And then I said, thank you.

And he goes, I don't know if it was a compliment. You should have hit him with the, you look like one of the executives who funded one of your favorite movies. That's an elegant place to end this conversation. Hey, thanks so much. I hope everyone will go see air and tell Amanda she needs to chill the fuck out let's go now to my conversation send your expenses to Sean Fennessey he can approve them

let's go to my conversation now with Sam Jones In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no. Turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage bacon and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg, a crispy seasoned chicken

one. Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. Happy to be joined by Sam Jones, one of my favorite documentarians and the director of Jason Isbell, Running With Our Eyes Closed. Sam, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So everyone's asking you why a movie about Jason Isbell. I'm going to ask you that same question. Why did you want to make a movie about Jason Isbell, Sam?

It's been a long time since I've made a music documentary. And every time I've made one, it's because I've been intrigued by an artist. And it's often through discovery as well. And I made the Wilco documentary 20 years ago, and I wanted to share that band and why I thought they were special with people. And then when I did the Bob Dylan thing, I wanted to share my love for the basement tapes and for bootleg recording history and for home recording and all of that. And in this case, I met Jason. I had him on my show. I used to do a show called Off Camera. And I had him on as a guest because I loved his music. And then when he told his story, it just really struck me that sort of trauma and the history he's had and that it's produced such personal art. And so I kicked it around for like a year in my head and then asked my producing partner if he thought it was a movie. And he was like, absolutely it is, you know? And so like all the other cases in my life, I assumed someone else was already doing it, you know? And then I called and he was totally open to the idea and it came together really quickly. I wanted to ask you about off camera and how maybe that helped inform a couple things

about making documentary and also choosing subjects because interviewing and hearing from an artist is a significant part of at least this film and some of the other films that you've made do you when you were doing interviews for the show were you thinking about this person would be a great subject because they're a great talker in addition to having a great story like how much do you scout for that sort of thing yeah exactly um not that i used off cameras as some sort of a scouting, uh, operation, but I did walk away from my conversation with Jason, um, knowing that I liked listening to him tell

stories and I liked that his style and cadence and tone and, and his perspective on the world was different and unique. So in that case, I do think that doing so many interviews for Off Camera, it did give me a sense of, because I think there are people out there who are natural storytellers and people who aren't. And that's definitely an advantage if your main subject of your film is both alive and can also tell a good story. Do you remember when you first heard Isbell's music? Well, I first heard Drive-By Truckers. I've played music for a long time. And back when we were both much younger, there was this one guy who I worked with who used to tell

me how much I looked like Patterson Hood. And he's like, you've got to listen to the drive-by truckers. Not anymore. But I was like, I got to check this guy out. And that was when they were first starting. I think it was right before Jason got in the band. And so I got into those records. And that's where I first heard of him. Then I sort of lost touch because I didn't put a name to the face or whatever.

So yeah, who turned me back onto it was Chris Shifflett, who's a buddy of mine. He's the guitar player on the Foo Fighters. But our kids are friends. So we talk a lot about music. And he was like, man, I think Jason Isbell is the best thing coming out of Nashville, the best alternative Americana songwriter. And so that sort of got me intrigued. Do you remember when that was?

That was probably 2016, 7. It was between Southeastern and the Nashville Sound. Right. I mean, that's such an interesting thing about his arc. And the film talks about it a little bit, but, that's such an interesting thing about his arc. And, you know, the film talks about it a little bit, but it doesn't spend too much time on that period. But the drive-by truckers and him joining the band and becoming this kind of songwriting dynamo. And then, you know, I similarly followed that band. And then I just felt like he disappeared

for five years. Like, I don't remember even hearing anything about him. And then it seemed like Southeastern really brought him to the consciousness in a new way. And I was wondering, as you were shaping what kind of story to tell about him, how much you wanted to talk about the past, how much you wanted to focus on the creation of this record, which is obviously the spine of this story. How do you think about conceptualizing the best way for an artist to tell their story? Well, in this case, I knew I wanted to make a Verite film at the core of the structure of it because I felt like I wanted to make a really handmade, hands-on film about the creative process. And so I knew I was going to use a lot of that. And my big question for Jason was sort of what kind of record he was planning on making.

And he showed me his notebooks. So I saw the lyrics. I saw them before the band, actually. If the band are listening to this, I don't want them to be jealous or feel like, you know, maybe their job is in jeopardy. But I did see all the songs. When he was showing them to you, did you think like, wow, this is incredible, this level of intimacy that he's willing to grant me? Or did it just seem like, well, that's Jason. He's just open about these things. transparency before because you know making a documentary is kind of like pushing a rock up a hill and occasionally some friends come by and they help push for a while but at the end of the day the only one that really cares if the rock gets the top of the hill is the filmmaker

you know and and knowing you take that on for a number of years uh you have to be really invested but when i read the songs the lyrics lyrics, the subject matter was just so personal that I thought, okay, there's an opportunity here to make a verite film about an artist in the studio making a record and seeing his process and the way he does it. But then I could use those lyrical transitions as ways into the past and also tell his story in an archival biographical way. And then I would, you know, the goal was to find these ins and out points of when to go back into his past. And that was, when we figured that out in the edit room, that was when it all came together. Why do you think he trusted you with this? You know, I don't know. I think coming on my show was a big help

because he saw not only how that show went, but he saw the way we put it out to the world. And that show was, we've avoided all sorts of ways that we could dramatize or make it more clickbait or whatever. We just didn't do any of that. And I think he appreciated that it was sort of pure in that way. So that was one thing.

And then, I don't know, I think that when you're a person of integrity, especially in the business of creating things, and you meet another person like that, you can recognize it. And I went in there with my heart in the right place about why I wanted to make the film. And I think he just recognized that, that, that my goal was to make something that, that was along the lines of something he would want to watch and something he would believe in. And I think also he trusted me because he was a big fan of the Wilco film. So, you know, that certainly helped. That film is one of,

certainly in the music documentary sphere, like maybe the best representation of like artists at work and artists clashing and the complicated feelings amongst bandmates, but also just creating something. This film is also about that. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the kind of nitty gritty of executing, like being

present while something is being made and how to make sure you're capturing everything without necessarily being obtrusive and influencing what you're trying to capture at the same time. Just seems like that's a very difficult tightrope to walk. It's not easy. And it's funny when we did the Wilco movie, it was 16 millimeter film cameras. And when we did this movie, it was red cinema cameras that were actually more obtrusive. 20 years later, the rig got bigger, and the cameras got heavier and everything. And so the challenge was to not disturb the process that we were there to capture. And I think the best way to do that is I decided to be the main camera operator nearest him at all times. Because I think that's the way you make the best verite films the way you direct the best

ones is is you're right in there and you're telling the story personally with how you decide to you know lens the camera where you decide to point it but also because of my musical background and how much I've been in the studio I just have that experience to know when to not get in the way or not move. And I'm able to tell that to the other operators, you know, and sort of make those little adjustments on the first day. And I think that that is important. I certainly think that if you don't know what's going on in the studio,

you can really screw things up. Were there days where you felt like you had to be there, but the band was not comfortable with you there or vice versa, where you felt like you had to be there, but the band was not comfortable with you there or vice versa, where you felt like we have to get out of here because this is not right. And we're running the risk of jeopardizing our ability to keep doing this. Like, does it ever get to that point? Because, you know, part of the greatness of the film is there's this really profound conflict

at the center of it. And this, you know, that Jason and his wife, Amanda, who is in his band and, you know, they collaborate and she's also an artist in her own right and so there is like a really raw and complicated emotional aspect to what's happening especially in the first third or two-thirds of the film like what is your role in that do you have to find ways to move forward or pull back when something like that is happening you know in this case, I consciously didn't worry about that. I just decided it's up to them to tell me if we've crossed a line or overstepped. And I kind of went the other way. I kind of, and this is against my nature and it took sort of like a little bit of effort in my

head, but even if I thought Jason was in a bad mood or slept the night before at a hotel and didn't go home and things weren't going well, I would just push forward. And I set up a room at the studio and I would make him do an hour of interviews before he got to go to work. And I just realized, he's agreed to do this. It's not always going to be fun for him, but we have a job to do. He has a job to do and we've all agreed to coexist. So I'm just going to ask for what I want and see how it goes, which is something I've had to learn. I'm not great at that. And so every morning I just say, Hey, I need to grab you for an hour. Let's, you know, and he was, he kept his word even when it got rough. But the other thing I would do is I'd get there early and I'd sit down at the piano and I'd just sit and play.

Well, I was just keeping myself interested or whatever. And I think that I just blended into that crowd of people, the engineers and the assistant sound people, because it's like, oh, this guy, he knows what he's doing or whatever. And I think Jason kind of felt like, oh, it's another friendly face in the studio. Right. You know, I think day three, he brought his red eye $500,000 Les Paul, you know, 1958 Les Paul, or maybe it's 59, that Ed King owned from Lynyrd Skynyrd.

And I was admiring it. And he said, play it, play it. And he puts it in my hands. And, you know, so that's a good sign when things like that are happening. So we were there every day. They never asked us to step back or anything. Did you ever evince him feeling like, what did I get myself into? Or I really don't want to talk about this right now?

You know, it's a dangerous game to try to start thinking about what people are thinking. Because I usually go, I usually get a little bit nervous that I'm talking to this person. They think my questions are dumb or they think that this is, I'm pushing too far. And so I've just learned to not question that and to assume that I don't know what's going on in someone's head. I mean, I assumed he was having sort of a difficult time, but I also know that Jason is the kind of artist that there's value to talking about that stuff when it's, when it's difficult, you know? So I, again, I just, I was just hoping that he would let me keep doing things and, and, uh, and I wasn't going to take myself out of it. So it just kind of kept moving forward. imagining what key certain songs should be in and like the act of creativity is happening in a way

that very rarely happens even in verite documentary when something like that is happening do you know while you're shooting it like this is gulf this is exactly what i want or is it the sort of thing that reveals itself after you've gone back and looked at it the best you can do especially as an operator is to be aware of what's going on and think about your coverage of how do I... And a good example of that is there's a scene when Jason all of a sudden kind of snaps at Amanda that her violin is too loud. In the moment, I didn't really understand exactly what was going on between them, but I could see it in Jason's face and I saw it in her face. And I've been in that situation where I've certainly been the too loud one that has been told to turn the guitar down. And all

of a sudden I'm like, oh, maybe I don't sound as good as I thought. I've been in the position where it feels a little like public shaming when someone calls you out for something and you're in the moment, you're creative, and all of a sudden you feel shut down and you're like, well, I'm just not going to play anything. And so when that happened, I saw that happening. And luckily, panned down to the violin for a minute and you could see she's holding it and not playing it. Whereas before she was and she was in a good mood. And you come back up and that little thing is enough, I think, for the audience to get what's going on. But beyond that, I don't think you can start editing in your head. You just have to keep being aware of what's happening. And I've got one

eye open at the other operators to see what their coverage is. And it's kind of like you're making one film while you're there filming, and then you're making another film in the edit room. You just hope the guy you were when you were filming was the right guy like you hired the right guy because when you get back things seem so obvious like oh why didn't why didn't we pan over and get a shot of amanda then like it was so easy she was standing right there whatever it was so you know it it you you have to sort of put on different hats the through the first half of the film it feels very much like a spiritual sequel to i'm trying to break your heart in that it's you know about artists at work and clashing inside the studio and the complexity of creativity

and then covet 19 came along and i was wondering I don't think we even ever talked about this, but when it happened, did you think that the movie was over or on pause indefinitely? Because you obviously found solutions to continue telling the story. And the way that the film plays out,

it feels like, in many ways, the movie kind of blooms in a different way when that happens. But, like, what was your immediate reaction just purely for the project

that you were working on, set aside the real world ramifications? It never crossed my mind that the film was over because at that point, we had a lot of money invested because all that, moving a crew to Nashville

and staying there, there were at least 14 days of tracking. And so we had spent a lot of money at that point. And then we had also flown to Nashville a few times. In fact, when the pandemic hit the day that NBA shut down and that schools closed, we were in Jason's town doing interviews with Jason and his dad. And so the first thought was, okay, how do we keep going? It wasn't, it wasn't, are we going to do this or do we have to

wait until the pandemic's over? But I had a lot of false starts too with how I wanted to deal with it. And I did some interviews over Zoom that I decided not to use because they didn't fit the rest of the vibe. So we found sort of an embedded guy who wasn't really a camera operator but he could he could set it up set up the camera and over zoom you know we could sort of move it around and you know place camera and and i ended up you know having having a camera in the room with jason but doing the interviewing remotely and figuring all that out we did that with patterson hood did it with Jason's mom, a few other people. So yeah, it was just how do we tell this story as it's happening? And of course, we had this whole first half of the movie about making this album. And so my focus shifted to how do we tell the story of him putting out an album in the pandemic. And then we don't want to forget about the guys in the band. And so we had to kind of tell that part of the pandemic story. So I think it was just one of those things where, like anyone else in the pandemic that had to change their job radically,

we just had to figure it out. And luckily, Jason is really smart. He knows how to operate guitar pedals and amps and music programs and stuff. So I was like, oh, he can deal with a camera. And they were great. And they were so patient with it too. Because it's not easy. It's not easy to look at a new piece of tech for the first time. And it's not a simple camera. It's a RED and there's embedded menus that you have to go into and all that. And they were great. The film, well, let me put it this way. Jason is very successful and beloved, but is also not Bruce Springsteen or Mick Jagger. So there's a version of this movie that has a lot of contextual voices, people, journalists, experts, people from Billboard, things like that,

that are explaining his prominence or his success or his lack of success or what have you. You kind of dispensed with all of that in terms of telling the story. Why did you do that? My feeling is if you can show Jason doing what he does, people are going to get it. And if they don't, then the journalist isn't going to help them get it. And I just think the more you pull in pundits and experts to tell people how great something is, the more it sounds like you're trying to sell them something. And I just thought, well, let's just show Jason being Jason. It got me. It's going to get other people.

Yeah. But the same thing with the Wilco movie, I think, you know, it's not bad to have an expert in there sometimes to explain the business side, like David Frick or Greg Codd in the Wilco movie. But, but yeah, when it comes to, I just don't want my documentary to be like a thesis that I have to prove a point, you know, I'd rather it be a story. How did this differ from the Tony Hawk project, which was released last year on HBO?

I feel like on the one hand, it's sort of more sweeping in some ways, but similarly captures an artist at a kind of critical stage of their life. Did you see them as kind of paired in any way? Well, the biggest difference is the Jason film is 85% verite and the Tony film is 10% verite. And with Tony's story, we were really sort of looking at a career arc because he's this athlete that, you know, that has quote unquote retired and, you know, has had his career in the spotlight. And whereas with Jason, I feel like he's an artist

just reaching the peak of his powers. So it's sort of a different thing. I feel like there could be more films about Jason. I don't know that you could do another soup to nuts film about Tony Hawk. We've told that story. But the things, the similarities are that you were trying to get, in both cases, I'm trying to get

inside someone's head and understand their reasons for doing things and the struggles along the way and paint a picture of the way they've managed to find their unique path that has brought them to where they are creatively. And those things are very similar. And in the end, you have two very talented people who have gotten to where they are in very different ways. But it's the journey of finding that out that to me is so fun. Even many of the leads of your films, you know, Jeff and Jay and Wilco, Tony Hawk, Jason Isbell. There's this sense that there's like a native wound, like an angst about getting to the final point of creativity. Like, what is it about that that is attractive to you as I don't, maybe, maybe that's subconscious.

You know, what's funny is my third episode of Off Camera, I had a guy named Blake Mills on. Oh, I love Blake Mills. Okay. And as you know, he's a first call session player, producer, genius musician. And I had him on my show and I said, do you ever feel misunderstood? And he said, doesn't everybody feel misunderstood? And maybe everybody doesn't, but I think he was speaking for most artists and most people who strive for something great because it's only that giant hole inside you that you have to fill that makes you great. giant desire to have human relationships with his dad and his peers and never feeling like he fit in ever because he was you know he was the the youngest of all these older brothers and sisters and his parents were like grandparents and then his friends were older and he got a bunch of shit from people for skateboarding and so his the reason he worked so

hard to be great as a skater was not just because he loved it but because he wanted to prove himself and i think there's some similarities with jason um wanting to find that greatness because just like tony's skateboarding brought brings brings Tony the only kind of peace he can find. When he pulls a trick off, he can relax for 10 or 12 hours before the voices in his head start again. sort of insulate himself from his parents' fighting, which scared him and made him very sad. And so songwriting and guitar playing are the things that keep him safe and sane. So in that case, they're very similar. Which style do you prefer working in, the heavy verite or the heavy archival i love the verite um archival is it's like a slow motion version of making a film because you're searching forever for the right piece of verite by the time you find it and then find out where it goes

and find the right music or whatever it is um it can be very satisfying. But when you're out and you're filming and something is happening, you come back and you edit that scene. You just have what you got that day. And that's really exciting because there's less control. With archival stuff, it's almost like you can be your own worst enemy because you're always looking for something better and you're never satisfied and um you always sort of have these expectations if only we had a picture of his mom doing this or a picture of the early days of that but with verite it's it's almost like you're making a narrative movie in real time. And I like that. And I like filming it, you know, because it's like real-time improv storytelling of the truth. I'm curious about your perspective on the state of documentary and also documentary about artists right now because you know you you've been a photographer you hosted off camera but

you have been making documentaries through this kind of extraordinary couple of decades in american documentary where it's just become among the most viewed categories of content i guess yeah in our society and you have held it seems like pretty firmly to like a certain style a certain ethic and ethical point of view. You know, music documentaries in particular have moved kind of firmly into a kind of documersial style. You don't really seem to work in that way. Like as you look at the landscape now and, you know, how people view this stuff, like have your attitudes about it changed at all? What do you make of the state of it right now?

Well, on one hand, it it's we're an amazing golden age for docs because there's so many outlets and markets for documentary and and i think that there there's opportunities for so many filmmakers and obviously it's it's a cheaper art form in some cases not all the narrative but but also just the idea of streaming platforms being able to host so much content is amazing. Now with my Wilco film, I was lucky enough that was in 400 theaters and you can never replace the experience of a theater viewing of a film and people are forced to pay attention and and the faces on the screen are bigger than life i was even you know shocked in a good way when we screened uh for our two

premieres when we screened the jason movie because i was so much more drawn into jason's thoughts because his head was so big on screen it really played played in a big room like that. Yeah, and as a filmmaker, you can't... And I say this, by the way, knowing that HBO has been, for both Tony Hawk and Jason Isbell, the most amazing partner. They've done so much for my films and they've supported and embraced me

in a way that gives me such pride and I'm so grateful for it. But the thing to do with a documentary is can you immerse yourself in it? And I do think when you have a ton of documentaries, you're going to have a larger percentage of bad ones and a larger percentage of good ones. And so if you're going to make one, my feeling is you better really, really love it and love your subject and be personally involved. And I think it's pretty easy to tell the kind of documentary quickly that is that and they stand out because of their because there's usually one filmmaker you know with a vision behind it and you can also see the ones pretty clearly that were assembled by a team because they got the rights to something and it's

just a no-brainer right you know like there's probably 20 art heist documentaries out there because they're great but if they're not made right, then they're just sort of filler. And I never want to make filler. So Jason said one of the nicest things of all about this film. He said there are two kinds of documentaries. There's the ones that you're in and you help make, and then there's the good ones. And he was speaking of when musicians commission their own documentaries or are producers or executive producers of their own documentaries, you're not really getting a film, you're getting a commercial. And look, there's all kinds of different films. I tend to lean lean toward the idea that with my time working on earth and being privileged to do so,

I like the feeling of discovery more than I like the idea of selling something. And some of these docs that are a different style, I think the whole thing is sort of written and scripted before they're shot, which is a perfectly valid style. And by the way, if you're making a doc about someone who's been dead for a hundred years, that's what you're going to do. You're going to write your script first. I don't like coercing them into being partners on helping me tell my story. I would rather discover and fight through it and find something that feels real to me. If this is the case, you don't have to say who, but I wonder if that ever works against you where you become interested in a subject, but then they see Wilco or they see Tony Hawk or maybe they'll see this film and think this guy portrays people at really raw, vulnerable states of their life. And maybe I'm not ready to do that right now. Yeah. I mean, I, I certainly don't know. Um, I don't know all the times the phone doesn't ring. Um, but the truth is the phone, you know, it's the phone has changed. The phone doesn't ring. Everyone just texts. I find that the work I do, it's generated by my own inertia. I think gone are the days when you get a call. And the last two times I've gotten a call over the last three years, the project seemed on the surface to be a great opportunity. And in both cases,

turned into a disaster that I had to walk away from. So I think what I've come to accept as an artist is that I do best sort of hacking my own way through the underbrush, you know, and making my way to the thing on my own. And it's just sort of like the way it is. And I'd love for someone to change my mind and call me about a great project because the work it takes, you know, is a lot more, but there's so much satisfaction in making a film, self-financing it, and then taking it out to people.

And you're not pitching them. You're not asking them to buy your sales pitch or to believe in you or to come on as your partner. You're saying, hey, look, I made something. And do you want it or not? And if you don't, I'm going to go take it down the street and see if they want it. And maybe if no one wants it, then I'll show it to my friends at a dinner party. But at least I made it.

And I've been very lucky that I've been able to make some things and have people want them. And it's the best way to make movies it really is who's on your white whales list oh god well um i tried for 10 years to make a vin scully documentary and i finally got to the point where i was i was in and sort of accepted and and then tragically then passed away that was hard because I grew up a Dodger fan my whole life. And I think I did because it was a very comforting thing to have his voice on the radio at night when I laid in bed. And then as I got older and was living alone and not at home anymore,

that was sort of the way to feel like, oh, I'm home. So I always wanted to make that. Is there no way to make that movie now that he's no longer with us? There may be, but my interest got a lot less when I couldn't sit with him and shape the story through conversations. But what a great character.

You know, there's so many. I think that people, you know, there's things on the surface that look great, but then you have to really dig in to, to see if it, it really happens. But, um, but you know, something I'm working on right now is this Ricky Carmichael movie about this motorcycle racer who most people haven't heard of, but my intent is to, is to explain to the world that not only is he the greatest motorsports athlete that ever lived, but this sport is an incredible sport that is sort of right under everybody's noses, but is unknown. And that's exciting.

Anytime you can share something you love with people, that to me is a great reason to make a film. Why was he on your radar? I ride motorcycles and I have my whole life and, um, I've certainly, you know, cause I grew up in Southern California. So, uh, it's just skateboarding, motorcycles, uh, good playing guitar. I have, I still haven't found better hobbies that are more exciting. And, you know, I'm just trying to get through my bucket list of my childhood heroes. And when I get through that, maybe I'll make a, you know, film about something that, you know, my, my kids are actually really, really focused on the environment. And I think, I think like all teenagers there at school, finding out what a horrible position we are in as a planet for our future. And it's their future.

And so lately I've been thinking, how can I do something with my kids about that? And then I immediately feel like the dumb guy who just wanted to, you know, take pictures and skateboard and get my way through school so I could go out and, and I'm like, someone else who's smart should make these socially conscious films. All things are valid. Sam, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers,

what's the last great thing they've seen? Have you seen anything good lately? Oh, God, you're putting me on the spot. I'll tell you something I saw recently. I subscribed to this service called Metrograph. And I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a tennis player. I've never played tennis, but there's a film called The French, which came out in the early seventies, which was like a 15 camera verite documentary at the French Open at a time when McEnroe and Arthur Ashe and

Martina Navratilova, basically all the heavyweights of tennis, Bjorn Borg, Yvonne Lindahl, they were all there. And it's the kind of access that you never see in a Verite film. It was kind of at the nadir or the apex of when the cameras got good enough

to shoot indoors without light and no one had figured out not to put cameras in locker rooms and in places. And no one had agents and no one had managers and publicists. And so it's this fascinating documentary. And you look at it, you go, oh man, that's what a Verite documentary can do.

You're just there. You're living. You've been taken by time machine to the 70s to France, and you're at this tournament for three days. And you don't even know why you like it, but I was just riveted the whole time. I haven't seen that one. Brilliant recommendation. Sam, thanks for being here. Congrats on the film. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Sam Jones. I hope you will watch Jason Isbell running with our eyes closed.

And I also hope you'll watch the film Air. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Next week on The Big Picture, some exciting stuff. We're going to talk about Kelly Reichardt's new movie, Showing Up.

We're going to talk about a bunch of other new films that we haven't had a chance to talk about over the last couple of months. I also talked to Kelly Reichardt's new movie, Showing Up. We're going to talk about a bunch of other new films that we haven't had a chance to talk about over the last couple of months. I also talked to Kelly Reichardt and Michelle Williams about Showing Up.

I'm really excited to listen to that one. Which was really cool. So I hope everybody gets excited about that movie. It's only opening and limited release, but let's just build

the excitement for Showing Up. It's wonderful. It's very good. Thanks for listening to the show as always.