The Big Picture - ‘The Matrix Resurrections’ and the Wachowski Movie Rankings

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

‘The Matrix Resurrections’ is out in theaters and streaming on HBO Max. Sean and Amanda talk about the film, the franchise (1:00), and the Wachowskis cinematic experience (43:00). Joining them is Ringer staff writer Rob Mahoney. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Rob Mahoney Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Watch is the latest and the greatest in pop culture from best friends Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald. Join them as they discuss TV, movies, music, and much more. Check out The Watch on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about The Matrix. The Matrix Resurrections is out in theaters and streaming on HBO Max right now. Today, we're talking about the film, the franchise, and the on HBO Max right now. Today, we're talking about the film, the franchise, and the Wachowski cinematic experience. Joining us to do so is Ringer staff writer,

co-host of NBA Group Chat, making his big picture debut. It's Rob Mahoney. What's up, Rob? I have emerged from the goop. I am jacked into this podcast. Let's go. We are awakening to the Matrix. Now, I want to start with this. Rob, I gave you a list of movies, and I said, hey, I really want to have you on the show soon. Heard you to start with this. Rob, I gave you a list of movies and I said,

hey, I really want to have you on the show soon. Heard you on Ringerverse. Feel like you'd be great. What would you want to come on for? You gave me a readout. You gave me some ones and zeros. But when you gave me the Matrix, I clicked to it. Why is this movie and this franchise and this collection of stories important to you?

So the first movie is very important to me because this was the first, the original Matrix was the first movie I ever desperately wanted to see that I was not allowed to see. I was not old enough yet to see. So that made it extremely cool. And that's a movie that when you see it, no matter what your expectations are,

I mean, it delivers. It pays off on whatever you think it could possibly be. And so from that moment, I was hooked. The sequels, I was in for the in-theater experience, anticipating those movies, somewhat disappointed by those movies. But I just love that the Wachowskis swing big. I love that no matter what, they are a almost post-good movie experience where I'm always going to be entertained. They're going to do some wild stuff. I'm in for it. Yeah. Post-good is a phrase we will probably return to in this conversation.

Amanda, what about for you? The Matrix, what's your relationship to it? Do you like these movies? When did you first see the first one? Vivid memory of seeing the first one with my very first boyfriend in high school. So this is a very classic, a boy with some romantic interest attached to him being like, hey, should we watch this movie? It seems really cool. Which would define much of the rest of my life. Unfortunately,

it's okay. Now I'm free. I can be Amanda again, but no, listen, this is a stone cold classic, right? I think like, I do remember seeing it because of that boyfriend and being like, oh, wow. Okay. So lots of, you know, green things on the screen here, but this has become in the last 20 years, not just a cultural document that we will come back to, but visually, action movie wise, even if you're not on the message boards trying to figure out whether you're in the matrix every day, you can call to mine. I can call to mine specific images, specific set pieces, which as listeners of the show will know, it's like not always what stays with me visually. So I have a huge amount of respect and even like enjoyment for the matrix, even though sci-fi not historically my genre sequels, I gotta be honest with you.

It's a no. I did try to revisit them because Sean asked me to. It was a lot of fast forwarding. I'm not really, I kind of understand broadly what happens, not really in the lore. And as it goes more into video game, you know, world, which is another thing we'll talk about. I, Amanda, unplugged, but that's okay. That I still, I respect and I'm excited to talk about The Matrix as a cultural and also like film phenomenon. Yeah, I'm a little bit older than you guys.

And so I saw this movie with a great deal of excitement at the age of 16. Imagine being 16 and getting a chance to walk into a movie theater and see The Matrix. Incredible experience, of course. I think it's one of the very few five-star gold-plated masterpieces of the last quarter century. One of those movies where you can indisputably say, even if you don't like this genre, or you're not a fan of one of these actors, or you can quibble with the sequels, the original itself, to this moment, stands up as an incredibly modern document. Super creative, technically a massive achievement. So many great things about it. The sequels are interesting

because they're obviously very much in the conversation because we have a new film. And there is a lot of recontextualization, maybe reviving happening. Some people saying, well, actually this part is good or this part is good. I will certainly make a case for Reloaded. I will probably not make a case for Revolutions,

which I feel like is significantly more flawed. What their relationship is to this new one, I think is a very interesting point of conversation for us. You know, Rob, it sounds like you're not as high on the sequels either, but was there any concern about hearing about a new movie that it could ruin the trilogy or ruin the original for you? What was your reaction to just hearing that Lana Wachowski was going to make a fourth film? I was baffled by the idea of it. But I think, luckily, if you're a fan of the original movie, we've already had the test case for if a sequel can ruin it, because Revolutions is very bad. So whatever damage was going to be done has been done. I think having just a chance to explore that world and die back again, I just didn't see what they were going to talk about, what it was

going to be like, what the tone of it was. That was one thing that jumped out re-watching Revolutions was you could tell the Wachowskis had kind of tired of the self-seriousness they had created in some points and were starting to get

a little jokier, which I think sets up this new one pretty well and transitions into it. But I was mostly just very eager to see what the hell they were going to do with this. And from that perspective, I was actually kind of pleasantly surprised by the hell they were going to do with this. And from that perspective, I was actually kind of pleasantly surprised

by the way they framed and created this new narrative. Yeah, me too. There's a lot of fun things to dissect about the new one. Amanda, obviously, you don't worry as much about the franchise management of something like The Matrix. But what was your reaction when you saw that they were going to make another one? How honest am I allowed to be here? I don't know.

What else do we expect from you? Is it a safe space? What is a safe space here is a great question, both for The Matrix and the conversations around The Matrix. I felt a little bit of dread, not because of the product itself, which the sequels exist, and I have not lost a night's sleep

over the fact that they're not as good as the original. I can really like respect the original, but all of the attendance, like anxiety and, you know, arguing online and like message boarding, you know, as soon as they announced that there would be a fourth, I was like, Oh God, I'm going to have to watch all three again. And that's really like the only way that I can receive that information. It's once again, a man of like just living Amanda's life every day. Um, and so I would agree with Rob to with Rob without spoiling anything. I was like pleasantly surprised by what happened in this movie.

I think that that is possibly like bad news for the reception of the movie writ large. Seems a little bit like one of these cases where if Amanda's interested in something's going on, like the core fan group is going to be pissed as hell but i i was pleasantly surprised it has been a year of polarizing movie reception this might turn out to be the most polarizing movie of the year yes um even just in in insinuating we'd be talking about it on the podcast on twitter i got a lot of reactions veering wildly from, I need to hear what you think and what worked about this movie to, this movie was pure trash and if you don't light it on fire, I'm going

to be very upset. And that's fascinating. I think that in and of itself is an accomplishment. I think Lana's relationship in particular to the franchise is what I was most interested in because at a certain point, particularly the first film, I would say slipped through their fingers and was hijacked by a lot of different people in the world. Obviously, there were a lot of bad actors and there were some good actors who were attempting to interpret this film. You know, Rob, one of the movies we talked about earlier this year that premiered at Sundance is a movie called The Glitch in the Matrix, which is this documentary

from the guy who made The Shining film about uh the sort of various interpretations of the shining and this is sort of in the same vein of looking at what the consequences are when art escapes the the grasp of its creator and goes out into the world and the way that people interpret and recontextualize these movies you know the matrix could be considered a dangerous document based on what some people have done while looking at that film. And I guess sort of the subsequent films, but mostly primarily that original text. And I'll just say, before we start getting into the details of the movie, the thing that I like best about this movie is Lana, in a very amusing, often hilarious way, completely reclaiming this story and these characters and saying like, this is what this is about. This is who these people are, even if they don't seem like real people living in an imagineered world. And everyone who thought they understood what this was,

who is a bad actor, is wrong. And that in and of itself was a rewarding experience. Did you have a sense going into this that it was going to be quite so metatextual, Rob? Definitely not. I mean, I expected it to be somewhat a movie about its own existence, just because that's where we are now. But I much prefer the version that took place here to whatever it was that Ghostbusters was doing,

for example. This is so much about having fun with the idea of the Matrix, and as you're saying, responding to and being in conversation with all of these bad actors who were admitting like watched a YouTube video once kind of energy, like play born in the USA at a political rally kind of energy. And so to see some of this, the symbolism like brought back to the original meaning to see Trinity empowered and portrayed in a way that's so much more in line with like who she is in the original movies than whatever a men's rights activist thinks of the original

trilogy. That stuff was really cool for me. Amanda, what about for you? Did you? 1000% agree. But again, that's what like I love a meta movie. I love a self-aware movie. I mean, Ocean's 12 vibes here for a little bit for sure, which is just like if you're

going to make the sequel, interrogate the idea of a sequel. And I agree with everything you both said about it being like funny and they're jokes and amusing. But I was also kind of moved by the way that Lana was engaging with both everything that has happened in the 20 years since the matrix has been released and like, you know, cultural red pill, mumbo, you know, mumbo jumbo, scary stuff and trying to reclaim it in a funny way. But also I saw it as like an artist interrogating their own last 20 years and the change and, and what this project meant to her then and now. And I like, I thought it was really cool. I can't believe I'm the person on a podcast being like I loved the artist interrogating their journey like in a like blockbuster and I understand that

that's not what many people see from the matrix but I thought it was fascinating I like I was really into it and like that's who the Wachowskis are too right it's like there are there are filmmakers who I'm going to do a different genre every time out I'm going to explore all this different stuff. If you watch their movies back to back or in close proximity, it's like the same ideas. It's choice.

It's love. It's, you know, similar symbolism. Like they clearly have a very clear view on the world. And I think Lana takes a lot of that and furthers it here in some pretty interesting ways, not always successful ways, but pretty consistently interesting ones. Yeah, I think we can really admire

and enjoy this movie while acknowledging that it has some flaws. It does have some flaws. We'll get to those flaws as we dissect it. But you're right on the nose, Rob. A lot of their films are about mythos and storytelling and relationships, and that is ultimately the things that they are most interested in. Let's just give some general details about the movie and maybe a general sense of where it's going in case you haven't seen it. As we said, it just lana wachowski working on this one her sister lily sitting this one out and so this is the first film made by just one of the two siblings um it's technically the fifth matrix film because there is a film called the animatrix

which for many years was a little tricky to see it's a sort of an anime slash animation series of stories connected to the Matrix world. In particular, if people are interested in that, one, it's on HBO Max if you want to check it out. Two, the first two installments of that movie sort of explain or like a true prologue to the Matrix and is really, really well done. And so if you're doing a Matrix binge, I would encourage people to start with that because I did and it was much more rewarding. So this is the fifth film and it's a real deconstruction. It's co-written not just by Lana, but by the novelist

David Mitchell, whom Cloud Atlas, his novel is based on. That's a Wachowski's film and Alexander Hemann. And it certainly feels like a bunch of novelists in a room kicking ideas around. Don't be rude. Respect the novel. I do. It's always interesting when a novelist decides they want to be a screenwriter. That's what I'll say. Are you a David Mitchell person or either of you? I am a bit overwhelmed by his fiction, I would say. I am as well. And this is, it's like one of my great shames in life because two of the most important readers in my life, Juliette Lipman and my father, both are nuts for David Mitchell. And I've tried a bunch of times because they send me books, my dad especially, and I can never quite get there.

But I thought in an interesting way, this was like a great tempering of the David Mitchell things that I can't quite get to and making them more pop. And I was like, oh, it's David Mitchell's for dummies like me. What's a theme there that you can't always click into that he seems to be hitting into in the movie? There is a lot of magical realism in his books and time shifting, which like, again,

it makes a lot of sense that he has a connection with the Wachowskis and that Cloud Atlas was meaningful to them as well as to him. I can't say that it was quite as meaningful to me.

There is like a earnestness and just like a lot of logic and like time shifting and all of these things. I get, you know, you know me, I get bogged down. Like, I just, I'm like, where are we going? Uh, sorry. What, what is this? But I do, I mean, he's just an incredible crafts like person as a writer and obviously like has a lot of imagination and that sense of also of wonder, I think, that filters through the Wachowski films. So I'm trying. I'm going to keep trying with David Mitchell. Rob, you just revealed to me that you just saw Cloud Atlas for the first time. So I assume you did not complete the 800-page book Cloud Atlas. No, no. But I have

an impression of what it might be like from watching that movie. And so, yeah, I mean, Amanda, to your point about the juggling timelines, I mean, there's juggling timelines and then there's telling six stories simultaneously. Right, yeah. In a way that honestly is kind of a miracle, but we can talk about that later. Okay, so in the new Matrix film, Keanu Reeves is once again playing Thomas Anderson, but in this case, it's a different reality. It's a reality we haven't seen before.

It feels familiar and yet different. He's a video game designer who has created a very successful video game trilogy called, of course, The Matrix. And he comes to find out very quickly that his employer would like to create a sequel. And here is where the meta truly begins. It seems like he is either imagining things that he is in like an alternate universe of some kind. He's having some realizations about his life or he's having a psychotic break. We realize he's in psychotherapy. The analyst played by Neil Patrick Harris is a pretty significant figure in this character. And simultaneous to that, there are these reflections of scenes that we saw in previous Matrix movies. The film essentially opens with a Polaroid of of the original film where there is a woman who resembles trinity

who is being pursued by agents and police officers we see that there are other people who have been plugged into the matrix who are observing this sequence happening it's incredibly disorienting i would say when the film started um for a variety of reasons one of which is the film is shot on digital and i thought it looked really bad and the original film is shot on film it looks so amazing i was like oh no they're regurgitating here and i didn't i i didn't click into the meta aspect of where they were going to go with this story and i will say from the jump i was i had a bad attitude i was like oh no they really are just trying to kind of like cash in doing part one all over again yes Yes. And credit to everyone involved that they are much smarter than me

and pulled the rug out from under me. But just generally speaking, what'd you think of the framework here for telling the story, Rob? I was very into it. And especially as you, they're kind of replaying the hits in a way, but there are characters who are plugged in,

like the Bugs character, who's providing instant commentary, which gives it an interesting it's almost like a very Bo Burnham-y YouTuber commenting on the YouTuber commenting on the YouTuber thing going on that immediately I think tells you what universe you're going to be in

I mean is it basically shot for shot the same opening? Certainly in terms of the stunts and some of the choreography it's all right there but that we're thrown into the metatextuality of it right off the bat, I think is fairly generous of them. And I think it sets the stage for a first act of this movie that's almost like more, it's more like the game or more like Shutter Island in like a, what is real? Am I living a real existence kind of way than it is the original trilogy? I mean, what'd you make of the opening segment of the film?

I was just psyched I got the references, you know, because I had watched the original the night before, which is a fascinating experience. I had not like revisited The Matrix in full really since kind of red pilling became a life of its own. But so I was just sitting there being like, that's like the first movie. I think I literally yelled that to my husband who was like, I need you to just like be quiet and be a part of this experience. But I will say, you know, I did try to prepare for this.

I tried to watch some of the sequels. Didn't get that far. Gotta tell you guys that reading Wikipedia summaries for Matrix sequels is a trip all its own. I mean, that's just that's a whole other delightful podcast. So I appreciated the, like the handholding. I do expect.

And, and I thought, especially the first sequence where that is so obviously a meta commentary and what's happening and is trying to screw with you was very effective. I would imagine that some of the other references and explanations and like flashbacks and the way it incorporates some of the first film. I agree with that some of the other references and explanations and flashbacks and the way it incorporates some of the first film, I agree with Sean that it, A, doesn't look very good just visually, and B, probably felt remedial to people who aren't me.

They really expect you to have seen the other movies, which are 20 years old, very recently. I went to go see this movie with my wife, and in the car on the way, she had seen none of the previous movies. Anytime recently watched no YouTube explainer and put me through. It was basically like the reply guy Olympics, which was explained the matrix to me, remind me what happens in, especially in the sequels.

And I, I really should have, I would have liked to have been in the car. I almost FaceTime Ryan at like seven o'clock last night being like, can you just tell me what happened in episode two and three, which is a service we should provide for people probably. That's a spinoff podcast. Well, in fairness, I'm not sure anyone can do it, which is part of the problem with those movies. We're in such interesting modern times when it comes to something like

that, though, because if you fire up HBO Max, where you will find resurrections, you can find all of these movies and revisit them. That is something that 10 years ago, you would not have been able to do very easily. You know, you might have had to get them, you know, mailed to you from Netflix, or you would have had to go to your remaining video store in the neighborhood. And so serialization has become such a big part of storytelling in this decade. And it is easier to tangle with. Again, like I said, I revisited, reloaded, and I got more excited about it. And watching Revolutions, I got more bummed out about it and more skeptical skeptical of this movie the movie the first hour of this movie in particular that was incredibly effective and i didn't know it was as effective as until i got to

the second hour of the movie and you know essentially what happens is there is this continued mirror experience where a more amorph, but not the Morpheus, comes into the world that Thomas Anderson is occupying. This Morpheus is portrayed by Yahya Abdul-Mateen. And he is the one character in the film who I'm still a little bit confused by who and what he is and the way he is explained. He's introduced to us very early on in the film. He's one of the agents who is in pursuit of this Trinity-esque figure. And then he has a kind of realization, thanks to the Bugs character, that he is some sort of program that has been built into the Matrix.

He's a modal. A modal. Don't know what that means. Which may or may not have been designed by Neo. I've read four explainers, had my husband explain it last night. Zach was very confidently like, yes, I know exactly why Morpheus looks different. And then just like said some gibberish for a while. And I was like, I'm no clearer on what a modal is, but modal. Sure.

I guess there's some controversy around that decision because Lawrence Fishburne was not asked to come back to the film. And obviously Fishburne's performance in the original films is quite iconic. And while I think Abdul-Mateen is a great actor, that part of the story is a little bit confounding because he operates as an agent inside the Matrix and then he leaves the Matrix and then he becomes a digital representation in the unplugged world. And then he comes back into the Matrix in different costume, attempting to lure Neo out of the Matrix and back into the real world. Did I get that right, Rob? That sounds as close to right as we're going to get.

Okay. And then honestly, where he goes from there in the movie is even more confusing. Like if they had just kind of contained him to the recruiting Neo to whatever reality is, I think I'd be more on board with it. But there's a weird thing going on there

where it crosses the border from commentary on the Matrix to like cosplay of the Matrix, if that makes sense. I think that's well put. The film then essentially goes through this series of stages of that kind of cosplay. We hear all these kinds of references that the previous films, you know, the Bugs character is constantly, you know, using exposition dumps to clarify things to Neo as Neo and this new Morpheus are going through the journey out of the matrix and back into the real world. No phone, no phone booths are needed anymore. You know, agents can take the shape of regular people. They don't just necessarily look like the Hugo weaving black suited figures. Um, you know, what is the state

of Zion and IO? This new habitat is, uh, you you know kind of a reflection of the previous films there's all this sort of disorientation and woozy point of view that we see from neo and particularly any figure that is leaving the matrix there is this sense that like almost like the world is shaking around them and i'll say i saw this film on an imax screen and it almost made me sick it was very very intense but effective that's obviously what they were what lana was attempting to to um make you feel but um the movie feels like it some movies feel like they're on rails you know like they're rolling down the mountain and this movie felt like it was hitting a lot of speed bumps as i was going through it the second time watching it i could i sensed a kind of genius in the design and there's something kind of brilliant in the way that they structured

the first hour or so of the story. But Amanda, I was curious for you in particular, having not fully engaged with the last two films, maybe not loving this franchise as much as Rob and I do, were you like, get me off this ride at any point? No, but that possibly has something to, I mean, no, I wasn wasn't like getting me off this ride because I've got a job to do and also because I did think like the the framework was so interesting

does my mind wander during subpar action sequences or subpar exposition dumps where I like don't really know what they're talking about but also it doesn't matter that much. Like it's pretty clear what's going on. Like, is it a, you know, simulation or is it a reality? Are you a machine or a human, or are you somewhere in between, you know, and, and everyone is changing alliances on that, which is sort of interesting, but like, I, I got the big points, you know, like, can I teach an undergrad philosophy course on The Matrix and it's three or four sequels? No, I cannot. But was I able to go on the ride? Sure.

Rob, what about for you? I found myself toggling every five minutes on how I felt about this movie as I was watching it in real time because I didn't think it looked as good. I did not think the action was as groundbreaking, innovative, or even as coherent as previous films. But there were other things in the storytelling that I was really excited about. How are you feeling as you were going through it? I think the action thing is a good thing to zero in on because this is not a good action movie. Nope. It might not even be an action movie. Like it really is kind of like commentary and comedy as much as anything to the point where when the fights do break out there are characters who are actively making fun of the action right like what

is this and on the one hand i are we doing spoilers yet this isn't really a spoiler we can we can officially start this isn't like a huge spoiler but at no point does neo shoot a gun which i like i thought i think for action movie fans is possibly like a complicated thing and it does it so that that's less action i thought that was fascinating and like a really interesting way to engage with everything that has happened since the first matrix so there's that i just also think it visually it just does not look as good as sean said it's shot on digital they're like the choreography and the stylization that was so essential to all of the not just the set pieces

but the set pieces in the matrix are completely missing from this the whole movie's filmed at night it looks kind of muddy or then you're in like you know gross machine world which I you know here's a real tension for me in all of these movies like if that's what real life looks like like nah i'm good you know it's like i and i don't think that's like a particularly original observation but it's just like weird towers and little spidey machines i'm like i'm okay well you're not going to steampunk burning man no like i'm like i'm perfectly okay with the other simulation. You know, that coffee shop like is a little too much

exposed for my taste, but like seems fine. Simulate? Is that what you're referring to? Exactly. I mean, that's of course purposeful. We're meant to believe that the burned out real world that the machines have created is deeply unpleasant and gray and stormy all the time.

And so we need to take it back. But your point is very, very well taken. So there are a series of additional mirror images as we go through the film, not just that opening moment with Trinity, but there's a dojo fight between Morpheus and Neo, in which they're very much calling back to genuinely one of the most exciting moments in the movies in the last 20 years. I thought that looked like a lovely vacation spot. I know it's not real. It's a nice space. It's not as cool a dojo. It just didn't look as good. And the choreography is significantly worse. And the way that those fights are shot is so strange. It's so much closer and on top of the actors. And there's very few long views. I saw this movie with Van Lathan,

and Van immediately was like, why was Yuen Woo-Ping not a part of this movie? His wire choreography, well-known and celebrated. You know, he also worked on Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, a number of other Hong Kong films over the years. And his work, in addition to the work of the incredible stunt people who went on to be serious filmmakers in Hollywood, is part of what makes The Matrix such a special movie. We do see Chad Stahelski in this movie, who is now the director of the John Wick films, who plays Trinity, aka Tiffany's husband in the films, which is a cute joke. But I was like, maybe Chad should have actually worked on some of the set pieces in this movie, and it would have been a little bit better. He's obviously busy with his own films.

But there's a challenge in being so metatextual with a story like this, which is if you are trying to recreate something that we have seen before that we already consider somewhat perfect, you have to do it just as well, if not better. And while the ideas I think are profound and often hilarious, I agree with you, Rob, there's something very funny about the way this is written. I love this script. If it doesn't feel as emotionally and viscerally entertaining, you're taken out of it consistently. You're thinking about the movie while you're watching the movie. And The Matrix is the ultimate, I have slid into the universe. And so it feels like a new version of a movie. I think between this and Spider-Man No Way Home, we have truly entered this new phase of movie going in which

you don't just need to have done the homework. You need to be in on the joke full time. Are you excited by the prospect of movies going in that direction? Does it bother you? Does it feel like a whole different art form? I think whole different art form. I mean, we're definitely going around the bend with this stuff and in Marvel especially,

but I don't want to get too deep into Spider-Man spoilers, but there's stuff going on. I loved it. I had a great time. But between that and the Doctor Strange trailer that just came out, there are trends in this stuff where it's like, are we just going to watch the same version of the same? I'm fighting the villains from my multiverse story over and over. So I was very thankful we didn't get Neo talking to another version of Neo in this movie. That's great. But it's, I mean, you really do have to be in on everything. You have to be plugged in on not just the movies, but the conversation around the movies, the way those movies have been interpreted as we've been talking about the red pilling stuff. Like the Matrix movies have always been kind of so far around the bend with the philosophy

they can go up their own ass a little bit in sometimes in appealing ways, sometimes in not. But this is a whole different thing. I mean, I assume you're not as excited about the continued no i will like i i brought i hugely agree with the idea of like i don't want to do homework before i see a movie i was once a homework queen never again no thank you no research um and i think that certainly this is like a new form of of you know the snake eating the the tail that's getting pretty intense i i do also think that some of it is just execution and that there is a way to do these things with ideas and reference and cultural context that um can be exciting i a person who was so bored during the Doctor Strange trailer

and just like don't really have a lot of patience for wizards, loved Spider-Man No Way Home. And I couldn't, but that's because I could understand the multiverse. Again, it was, I think there were details there for specific fans and people who know who Daredevil is, but the larger point of like, Oh, there's like Spider-Man's and he's interacting with different versions of himself. They managed to open it up to people.

And I think this matrix does not quite open itself up. Maybe not enough is like, I think that's a bad word. I don't know that there's any way that you could do this particular project, which is commenting on such a widespread, but like pretty insular world of, of response and culture, like, you know, in a way that would make sense as broadly. And, you know, that way lies madness. I think when we're just like making the eighth movie for the people on the message boards to also provoke the message boards. But

I do still think that there are ways to do this well. And I think it's really cool when a movie that is as popular or like a filmmaker who's made something as popular as The Matrix actually can find a way to engage with the culture around it. I don't think that we should give up on that just because like people want to make us watch a lot of Disney plus series. I agree with you. I think that's actually what recommends this movie. This movie, if you, if you had never seen a matrix film before and you sat down to watch this movie, I think it actually would somewhat make sense. You wouldn't obviously enjoy it. Uh, it uh you'd be um a little baffled by some of the storytelling choices but it would be coherent enough and that you know who the good

guys are you know who the bad guys are you know how to get to the clear resolution of the story if you've seen just the matrix and you watch this you probably could follow along you'd be a little bit bewildered say by niobe you know the character that Jada Pinkett Smith returns and plays. But for the most part, you could follow it. The concept of fan service and for the fans is something that's really been in the world over the last five or 10 years. This to me is actually a really good version of that. It actually does reward that sort of fan service and redefines what the franchise is and is about in a way that I find intriguing. And it is a little bit more insular. It's not, it doesn't feel cynical. It feels like, like we were saying at

the top of the conversation, like an artist trying to grab hold of what she feels is important about the story that she told and how it went into the culture. Spider-Man No Way Home, I think, can be an incredibly fun movie and then also provoke this anxiety about the future of movies this one doesn't really worry me about where things are going personally here's a weird existential question but this is a matrix podcast like can it be fan service if it pisses the fans off uh well i i think so i think some of those fans need to be served candidly you and i agree but i'm usually on the losing side of this battle so what do you think about that rob i think some of the more appealing things about this movie have that like star wars you know like a last jedi kind of vibe you know kind of what could be more

subversive than making a matrix movie with shitty action scenes you know in which you make fun of the people who just want to watch shooty shooty and have a good time. That part of it is interesting. But I think what walks that line is like, it is fan service in a way. And it is insular as you were saying, Sean, but it's not indulgent. Like it isn't overly indulgent

in the things that would appeal to the message board bros about the original Matrix. Like it's interrogating all those ideas. It's interrogating why you're here, why we're here, why this movie is being made. Those are worthwhile endeavors if you can do them right and if you can make them funny. And I think they do that, at least in the first half of this movie. I agree. You cited this up top, Rob. But the other thing is that clearly in the Wachowskis' eyes, the Matrix and all of their films are about

the power of love. That is the prevailing theme of all of their stories. And having rewatched eight of their movies in the last few days, I can say that they are unshy about being sentimental about that concept. And this movie, more than any of them, foregrounds that. It's like, just in case you thought The Matrix was about firing guns in beautifully designed lobbies,

it's not. It's actually about Neo and Trinity and two people who are bound for each other, fated to each other, and that they will do anything to be together. I really like that part of the movie. I think it would be really funny to... I'd like to see Lana Wachowski's rom-com.

I think that she has... Well, this is it a little bit. It kind of is, right? Which is nice, yeah. Does that part of it totally work for you guys? Because while that is the center of these movies, the love story is the movie, I wouldn't say Neo-Trinity is like

one of the great love stories of our time. Like as a pairing, it works as a story. I don't know that it works as like an anchor for everything I want to see from these movies. Well, I'll just say like in the first film, when she realizes that he is the one that's a great moment of a person who loves another person recognizing them you know like that is a genuinely like is it is it heart-wrenching is it weird to have your heart wrenched in the in the middle of watching a movie about like kung fu and guns maybe but it really that one really does work whether it is like a little bit over determined in this one i think it's fair to say that they are really

banging you over the head with the idea that these two have to be together you know and that thomas and tiffany will one day be neo and trinity but i don't amanda you are the romance expert i mean it is hold on let's let's calm down on that one. It is really open-hearted. And I think the Lana Wachowski's style and the Wachowski style does have that sincerity baked into all of these things. Even something that is quite cheeky, like this movie, which really is waking at you a lot. But there is this tender belief in them. This movie also, and I can't remember if this is as true in the sequels, but this movie posits that like the, the fate of all the world, like humans and machines rests on these two people together. Um, you know, which is like some real Philip Pullman stuff, which,

you know, is also some real Bible stuff once again. Um, but, and, and that that's a lot. Um, so it's not just, it's not just about love it's about like love literally saves the world which i think is really beautiful i don't know if i like totally understand the mechanics of how their love saves the world in this one beyond the sense that like finally trinity can fly and i assume that she's the one you know she's she's lifting them and there's that lovely are you doing this moment um she's the one plus one you know that's lifting them and then there's that lovely are you doing this moment um she's the one plus one you know that's really that's where they're at yeah they're this the sum is bigger than the you know whatever of its part the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts i don't know

once you have to do math which again there's some math in this right at some point that like neo and the room there was something about fractions you know it's like i can't explain all of it to you i wasn't i didn't think you were going to be able to explain all okay thank you but but i do find it still like moving i think that there is just like an emotional core to it still which you really need in something if this were all the first 30 minutes of this movie like total jokes and you know writer's room and like christina ricci doing the warner brothers focus group which like was funny um it you know it would just it wouldn't hold together you you still need that center so that's an interesting line of thought i want to talk about the things that i liked best

about the movie and it's complex because most of them happen in the first hour and then a little bit in the final 45 minutes or so but if you're right if you if you made that the whole movie that wouldn't work but when I revisited the movie I was like this is clearly the movie that Lana is interested in and the movie about everyone turning into an agent and throwing themselves out of a skyscraper is not very interesting to me and it seems like to the people who made the film. A couple of things. I mentioned Neil Patrick Harris as the analyst, the psychotherapist who is working with Thomas Anderson, who then it is ultimately revealed is also a program and is a kind of a representation of a newfangled architect. The architect is a famous figure from Reloaded,

the second film who sort of explains the world of the Matrix and the design of the Matrix. Very helpful name for him, you know? The architect? Yeah. And the analyst, I think, is also a helpful name because he is someone who is sort of explaining the wants, needs, desires, failures of the world around him

and the world that he is helping to maintain. And he's really the true villain of the film. It seems like the villain of the film may be Smith, who is presented as Thomas Anderson's boss and the head of the video game company. He's played, I think, quite winningly by Jonathan Groff. Just delight. I'm thrilled for Jonathan Groff is what I have to say. No one is having more fun in this movie than Jonathan Groff. And it is ultimately revealed that he is the Hugo Weaving Smith and that he at a certain point turns and we see that he is an agent. And their relationship is kind of fascinating. But I thought in particular,

having a director's commentary inside of the movie was a very good choice. And I feel like everything that the Neil Patrick Harris character says and everything that the Jonathan Groff character says are manifesting these sort of like counter arguments to the way that the movie has been hijacked over the years. I think the writing in this movie is really, really strong. It is a little bit. Here's my essay but i i don't mind it because i feel like it's funny enough and it's delivered in a clever enough way that it's going to get a pass from me revisiting it if you look at the very specific lines particularly things like the worst we treat you the more energy you produce is just something that the analyst eventually delivers to neo says a lot about not just what Lana thinks about what

people have done to the Matrix, but maybe how we feel about Facebook and social media, maybe how we feel about our political figures, maybe how we feel about the way that narratives are skinned alive and then served up as raw meat to their audience. Rob, what did you make of the way that they use the villain characters in the film to kind of present counter arguments to the stories? Well, we talked about love as being a great theme for the Wachowskis, but the other one is constant and unrelenting capitalist critique. And so that is all over the place in this one. But I love the way that this time around in a very 2021 way, all of the modes of control are softer. Like they're gentler it's your your you know your therapist looking at you with a concerned eye versus like an architect in a room pulling these puppet strings right so i think they

they adapted the core of this movie and the restraints around the characters in such an interesting way and the casting with neil patrick harris and with jonathan groff i mean i thought groff was great in this and honestly a more much more credible action star than I thought he could be. His fighting was really good. But they're tremendous. And I think are perfect as like foils for this kind of story. Amanda, who'd you prefer, Groff or NPH? Groff, obviously.

Even though, is he a villain? I don't really understand at the end when he's like, I'm with you, but I'm against you. And we're together, but we're like, it's okay. I don't need to know. Do you want me to explain it? Yeah, go ahead. Can you do it in like two sentences with not that many clauses? He effectively was restrained by the analyst over a period of time.

He uses the phrase leash. And so he needed to effectively defeat NPH so that then he could be free inside of the matrix again. And then that is when he uses Neo to get free. And then he could be free inside of the matrix again and then that is when he he uses neo okay to get free and then he effectively gets free and then that's when all of the agents sort of turn on the whole matrix turns on neo okay what had happened to smith at the end of the third movie he kind of blew up he's exploded yes so they like we're just to assume that he was in like goo in another tower somewhere?

No, he's not a person. Oh, right. He's a program. Okay. Aren't we all? The ending of Revolutions is probably my single biggest nitpick because I have a hard time. It's very hard to understand what happened at the end of Revolutions. Actually, you do need the Wikipedia update there.

It doesn't help. Someone needs to edit it. Maybe you should edit it. Well, I had Van very helpfully explain it to me right before this movie started. So that was a bonus. Well, so Sean,

you're just anti-enlightenment? I wouldn't say I'm anti. I have some questions about it. Yeah, that's fair. Anyway, I just was thrilled to see Jonathan Groff. He was great. Say hello to Tim Selects, Tim's everyday value menu.

Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax. Try one or try our full Tim Selects lineup. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada. It's time for Tim's. There's a couple of things about the original film

and the series in general that are critical. I may have mentioned this to you recently, Amanda, but in the first film, it's probably one of the most diverse casts of the 1990s. There are no white male heroes in that film. There are a couple in this movie. Obviously, there's a core and essential reading of the first film in all of these films now

is texts about trans identity. And so that's a huge and essential reading of the first film and all of these films now is texts about trans identity. And so that's a huge part of this story too. Gender is a massive part of this story. I think especially Trinity becoming empowered, as you said, Rob, and becoming an equal hero to Neo is a massive part of this story. And then also this idea that these two icons of gay musical theater are like two of the most powerful people in the world is just a brilliant stroke of casting. I love that so much. It's kind of amazing when you look back and think about where we were in 1999 and the conversations that we'd be having about who should be on screen, who gets to tell stories, what is important terms of uh showing a certain kind of experience on like if you just look at the people on the nebuchadnezzar in the first film they're like oh wow they're this was not a mistake that when you look at tank and dozer and apoc and morpheus and trinity and switch and all of these characters are not the characters you see in the arnold

schwarzenegger movie and this movie seems to be like following that even more deeply. Like the through line is so clear between all of those questions. And it's just amazing how ahead of the curve that Wachowskis really were with all of that stuff. Did anything jump out to you about that, Rob? I'm trying to think. I'm going through the cast in my head of,

I think it's ultimately kind of a more forgettable crew in this movie than in the previous ones. Like the original Matrix, as you're saying, like you remember characters like Tank a little bit more vividly. But Jessica Henwick is also awesome in this movie. And it's kind of unfair how effortlessly cool she is. I don't know how exactly she pulls that off, but she's great. Great sunglasses in this movie. The Matrix, again, trying to revolutionize the sunglasses industry. I respect it. I really enjoyed the joke when, I guess it's the program Morpheus. Was he always?

Whatever. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He was not always a program. That's what the Matrix taught me, is that it doesn't matter. But I think, anyway, I like the joke when he's like, oh, I've never worn these sunglasses before. Um, and, and in general, I, I really liked, um, the, the Morpheus character in the first half of the movie, just, you know, being reprogrammed and just like incredible style that like, that was the only moment where I was like, Oh, there

is some still like visual style and like fashion left in this movie, which is that yeah. Abdul Mateen just absolutely having the time of his life. He looked great. Um, I, I, I thought the writer's room scenes were the ones that edged a little too close to Metanus, but, or they were the, Sean, to your point, the here's my essay, um, or like, here's my tweet thread really. And i did think that they were very clever but they were very much like blinking lights like in case you missed this we are taking on every single thing that you guys have written about this movie and acknowledging it but also sort of making a joke of it and i i thought it was clever but i do find that the more sincere moments of engagement

with the the context of this movie worked better for me because I just think that that is sort of what the Wachowskis do. I think it's a fair point. I really like all of that stuff. But there is an early conversation between Anderson and Smith when they're still working together at the video company where Smith explains that they have to make a sequel. And he literally says, things have changed. The market's tough.

I'm sure you can understand why our beloved parent company, Warner Brothers, has decided to make a sequel. And he literally says, things have changed. The market's tough. I'm sure you can understand why our beloved parent company, Warner Brothers, has decided to make a sequel to the trilogy. They informed us they're going to do it with or without us. I know you said the story was over for you, but that's the thing about stories. They never really end. We're telling the same stories

with different names, different faces. It's all right there. The stories thing is actually a great point. And I think when we were talking a little bit about is this becoming too metatextual or we're just going to keep making sequels like Spider-Man It's all right there. The stories thing is actually a great point. And I think when we were talking a little bit about, is this becoming too metatextual or we're just going to keep making sequels like Spider-Man where it's the multiverse and you're, you know, you've seen all these things before.

But the reality is like, we've seen all stories before, you know, it's like four stories and you're just putting your spin on it. The Warner Brothers thing, I was like, this is the second time in a year that Warner Brothers specifically has tried to do its own like meta synergy, what have please see also space jam 2 another movie that i didn't complete please don't see it please don't see it i did it but i did see that scene so i think this was better

rob you're a gifted nba analyst uh what any any space jam two thoughts oh my god it was one of the most out of body viewing experiences i've ever had watching all like the random clockwork orange characters cheer on lebron james in a basketball game or whatever it was that happened at the end of that so messed up um what so what are some things that that didn't work because i think there's a little bit of blood in the water and people want to be like you can't tell me that this is a genius movie through and through. Anything jump out to you, Rob, that you just didn't really click with aside from some of the action and some of the muddiness that Amanda cited? Well, I thought the balance was a little off and it comes to me from not having Lawrence Fishburne in this movie. Because when you do this kind of, again,

Morpheus cosplay, which was hilarious in its own right, like yada yada-ing the Morpheus speeches, I thought was really funny. But you lose the secret weapon of the original movie, which is Laurence Fishburne's ability to give exposition dumps and make them the yet they're the highlights. They're exactly what you remember. And so not having his gravitas, you get incredible dignity and strength from Carrie-Anne Moss, and you get this zen and curiosity from Neo's character, but you're missing some of that authority from the way that Laurence Fishburne played Morpheus. At least I was missing it. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Amanda, anything for you that you just were like,

I can't get into this at all? Yeah, at some point, we're just battling some, you know, weird robots. And this is even true in the first part of the movie, in the first movie, which I agree is like an absolute classic. But at some point, the last 20 minutes, it's just like, we got to fight these machines, you know you know and i'm like i've been here before i'm on record as not really caring about the like the battle against the machines you know if they take us over as i said once again that's just how you feel in life i i just i can't get invested in it okay like i'm worried about a lot of things the robots rising up against me i i just not a compelling plot for yours truly. Hey, Alexa,

start up the rise against humanity, please. I mean, and that is a part of this plot, though the plot where am I, you know, what's real and what's not, that's more interesting because it's philosophical. But like just once you have

like these actual sort of weird floating like spider alien robots, I don't care, you know? I hear you. I have a similar quib robots i don't care you know i hear you i have a similar quibble which is you know at a certain point we learned that in the real world there are some friendly robots there are some friendly machines and they they board the ship and they are working together with the humans it's a no from me on that it is a definitive like there are no cute robots in the Matrix.

We didn't need this. We don't need to Jar Jar Binksify. Maybe if that was meant to be a meta commentary, that'd be one thing, but they're not delivering it in that way. At a certain point, a character literally gives a fist bump to a tiny robot. And I was like, dude, get the fuck out of here.

Don't touch foreheads with the robot. It's weird. Don't do it. It was tough. Do you guys remember like wula or the the john carter from mars oh um villain that or not villain like little animal that was supposed to be merchandising that taylor kitch has to love it kind of looked like that anyway you can feel merchandising creep in this one and i don't know whether it's supposed to be commentary or whether they really like hope that they're gonna sell a lot of like bugs action figures which in a way

it's like cool if they sell bugs action figures but i agree i was like i i can i can feel warner brothers marketing hand right here you know we don't usually do like letter grades or star grades on this show but i was trying to think of you know me i'm on letterboxd too much and i was like what what grade do i give this movie how's letterboxd doing with this do i want to know it had a 3.3 last night which is pretty low um that being said all of the film critics that i follow gave it either four and a half or five stars and that says a lot about how this movie is going to be received because i think a lot of film critics watch every franchise entertainment and they're sick of them they're sick of being told that this

is the center of movie culture and everybody who loves franchises doesn't want to be told that their interest and love for franchises is kind of stupid and this movie is kind of saying that at the end of it and so it's challenging i i i still don't really. Is it a cop-out to be like, this is a three and a half out of five in that I liked it mostly, but there were a couple of big detractions for me for it. I don't know, Rob, how would you grade a movie like this? Can it even be done? I think this is a problem with a lot of their more recent movies,

to be honest. But I think it does, if you're going to assign some kind of grade, probably lands in that three to three five part of the spectrum but it's interesting that you talked about like the relationship between the matrix and this movie and modern blockbusters in general because like the original one it was almost like they created a visual style in terms of like the very washed out very green tint on the lens that was like this is bad don't do this isn't this doesn't this look artificial and the lesson that

hollywood took is let's make every movie look like that, but like kind of blue instead of green. So to see at least, you know, I, with all these movies

that the Wachowskis make and this one in particular, I appreciate the swings. I appreciate the fact that they're willing to take some of these chances that they're willing to be subversive,

that Lana is willing to take this franchise that's been so important to her. And she's talked about, you know, not just this as a part of her life, but a vehicle for dealing with the grief over the death of her parents. Like there's a lot packed into all this stuff

for the people who make it and that they're willing to take that sacred thing and go wild with it. I can respect the hell out of that. Three, three, five, whatever number you want to put on it. I can respect that. Amanda, five stars?

How many stars? I think this is a solid three and like it it might be like a 2.8 honestly i thought this was a really like interesting compelling mess sort of because the first hour is great and then it does not deliver anything in terms of like visual imagination or just action movies it as you know rob said it's an amazing subversive thing to be like a matrix that's a shitty action movie but like it is a shitty action movie sorry and i'm sympathetic to the people who invested in the action parts of it and be like what the hell that said i really do admire all of the ideas but the thing about the original matrix was that it was ideas and also amazing execution yeah i don't know if you can give the execution like full marks here yeah i agree with

that um i'm it's got to be at least a 3.5 for me because Lambert Wilson's return as the Merovingian is worth at least half a star. No, it's not. Homeless, dingy Merovingian. That was, that was incredible stuff. You stole my life. Everything he says in this movie is fucking perfect. Art, books, films were all better.

Originality mattered. He literally says that in this movie. Um, okay. Well, I would recommend if you care about the matrix at all that you watch this movie for sure um i want to do a little bit if you listen to this whole podcast and haven't watched the matrix yet i don't know what to say people do that you know there are a lot of weirdos out there you know i do that i guess i do that for tv shows but then i don't go watch the tv show i mean i'm sure i'm sure rob you know that there are a lot of people that listen to a lot of NBA podcasts and don't watch very many regular season games.

How else to keep up with the league? It's baffling. To get a whole lens on something through someone's podcast, like, please watch this movie. Don't just listen to us. Please watch it. That's right. Form your own opinion. Let's form some more opinions quickly. So the Wachowskis have made eight films. I want to try to rank these movies. Okay. I don't know how we're going to do it. What I'm going to do here is, this will be like mean PTA, where I sit on the sideline. You guys make your list.

And then I will be like, that's absolutely insane. And you can't do that if I need to intervene. Okay. But I otherwise want to let you guys build your temple. Rob, do you feel fresh on their filmography? I feel very fresh. I've rewatched all of their movies but one recently. That one I think is going to be our number eight. Well, what is that film then? That would be Jupiter Ascending for me, which I watched in kind of a rubbernecking capacity when I saw it.

But it's also kind of everything I love about the Wachowskis. So who am I to tell them they can't make a movie in which Eddie Redmayne plays a space emperor who whisper screams all his dialogue? Who am I to tell them that? I deeply enjoy Eddie Redmayne in this film. It's one of the only things about the film that I enjoy.

It's not very good. It is very true to their filmography, right? And a lot of their themes. And it is a, it is actually more of an old school science fiction fantasy film than any other film that they've made. It feels like it is a commentary on, candidly, Amanda,

a lot of the books that your husband may have in your house right now. You know, the sort of like the illustrated covers. Yeah, he's just really getting burned the last couple of months. Yeah, that's true. So many wizards. I can't endorse it. Space wizards and lizard men and, you know. He doesn't really go for it.

The thing is, is he does more fantasy than sci-fi fantasy, which is maybe honestly nerdier. We don't really need to arbitrate that right now. But like lizards, I don't really think are part of what's going on. So more on the wizard, less on the space wizard. Yeah, just like wizard orgies, basically is how I understand it. Wizard orgies?

That is what I understand. I have never read these books or watched the TV show. I've just read a lot of his writing about what it means to him. This feels like a pitch meeting, that wizard orgies. That's a combination of words

that's going to raise some eyebrows. A lot of people watched The Wheel of Time on Amazon. I think that's why. Did they? Is that true? Okay, that's great. I'm going Matrix Revolutions for seven. What do you think about that, Rob?

I think that's right. There was somehow even more leather in that movie than I remember there being. Is that a demerit or is that a good thing? I think it's probably a good thing. The whole vibe of that movie is a little off though. Like the ratio of cool stuff to nonsense has tilted way out of whack in Revolutions

in a way that really takes it down. Okay, so now I think this is where it gets a little bit more challenging. Is Resurrections number six? What do you think is number, is Speed Racer number six? Cloud Atlas? What is next? I would put Resurrections here.? What do you think is number... Is Speed Racer number six? Cloud Atlas? What is next?

I would put Resurrections here. How do you feel about that? Yeah, having watched the movie again, I obviously have more fondness for it. And I feel like I will continue to have more fondness for it as franchise films get worse and this movie looks more and more intelligent

and ahead of the curve as the original film was. In the moment, I definitely liked re-watching Reloaded more than watching this movie a second time. And maybe that's just because Reloaded is high-scale action filmmaking at its best. There are a couple of sequences in that movie that are like,

you can't do it better than what they did here. So I would say Resurrection's number six. So are you thinking are you thinking reloaded at five then i think so well i i'm not a cloud atlas person yeah we gotta talk about cloud atlas a little bit well okay let's let's put my resurrections at six amanda what do you think about that i think that's fine i think whether you wanna i the parts of reloaded that i did watch were more visually impressive and it's really, what are you rewarding on a rewatch over time? But it doesn't really seem like we're going to spend the next five years living in the world of resurrections and asking more questions about

ourselves. It's like a pretty contained analytical experience, which is cool, but glad they did it. I don't know how often I'll revisit it. Yeah, I think that's well put. I guess one other thing to mention here as we're going through these is we're not going to put The Animatrix or V for Vendetta, which is widely understood to be somewhat co-directed by the Wachowskis in addition to James McTeague

and Nor Sense 8, which is the show that ran for two seasons on Netflix, which is an interesting show that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't work at all. But we're sticking strictly to the feature films that the Wachowskis directed. Okay, so we've got

five films left. Here are the five films. They are The Matrix, The Matrix Reloaded, their debut Bound, Speed Racer, and Cloud Atlas. Cloud Atlas I watched again for the first time since it was originally released. I've mentioned Van a couple of times in this episode. He's been very influential to me on the Wachowskis, and Van told

me that he thought this movie was an out-and-out masterpiece and better than Jaws. And I don't know. I don't think that that is the case. That's why we love Van. Yes. And that's also wild. I do want to say,

when I saw this movie the first time around, it just did not work for me. I admire that they tried, and I was like, a real what is happening here since then I've come to appreciate that they tried more I also when Tom Hanks was on the Bill Simmons podcast he was asked to name his like three favorite movies of his own filmography which he picked by like the experience of making it he you know instead of like the

result which is a keynote, but Cloud Atlas was on this list because he was like, we just, we tried. And it was like, you know, swinging for the fences. I don't think that it's better than Jaws. I just would like to have everyone hear me say that.

But it's, you know, it's one of these things like how much are you giving for effort versus execution? Which again is sort of the question with Resurrections as well. Well, and Cloud Atlas has this lingering question over it of how much are you giving or taking away for the very misguided and questionable racial portrayals in that movie too. Yes, sure. Which, yikes.

Lots of very really weird yellow face style decisions in the movie where there's like coloring of certain characters that do not need to be colored it's a a very curious movie some of it is so audacious you have to respect it you have to you know to your point amanda you have to be like wow i don't know if anyone has ever tried to make a film quite like this that's not necessarily a positive in some of the stories. I have often thought about which of the stories would work best as a standalone. And obviously that defeats the purpose of the story,

which is that there is interconnectedness in the world. Have you often thought about it? How much are you thinking about Cloud Atlas? Every day. I wake up every morning and I think, what Cloud Atlas character am I today? What was your favorite? Just rewatching it, Rob,

or watching it for the first time. What did you connect with the most? This is a good question because I think my favorite in the context of the movie is the post-apocalyptic Tom Hanks, Halle Berry situation. But if you made the whole movie out of that,

I think the alternate future language and like a lot of the stuff would be pretty grating. Yeah. So it is a less is more oddly enough in a three hour act like mega packed movie. I don't know that any of those stories

stands up to a full feature treatment. Please don't ask me because I can't remember. I can't, you know, like it all just is together in my head as mush. Well, I think when in doubt, pick the one where Hugh Grant

is some kind of like warrior chieftain who slits somebody's throat and licks the blood off the blade. I totally forgot about that. That was like deep Hugh Grant trying to exercise his rom-com demons. And he finally got there 10 years later with the help of HBO. But that was a weird time. I enjoy Hugh Grant's work in this film. It's one of those movies you forget Hugh Grant and Susan Sarandon and a number of other people are in this movie.

Keith David. There's a whole bunch of people whenever you watch it. I was like, oh, yeah, they're in this too. It's not just Tom Hanks and Halle Berry existing through time. Jim Sturgis, Jim Broadbent. Really good cast. Really good performances. Is there a case for Speed Racer at five instead of Cloud Atlas?

Or is Speed Racer? Speed Racer has been reclaimed already. There has been a hive that has said, this is actually one of the most visually visionary films of the last 20 years. Rob, where do you land on Speed Racer? Not to spoil, but Speed Racer is significantly higher for me. Oh, wow. Good to know. Okay. So that confirms it for me. Cloud Atlas is number five. So we'll go Cloud Atlas. So does that mean Reloaded is number four for you, Rob? I think it's one of those two, depending on how you're feeling about the majesty of Cloud Atlas on a given day or given week

versus what you're getting from Reloaded, which as you mentioned, it's just unbelievable set pieces in that movie. I wouldn't say particularly subtle philosophy. Like at one point, characters literally say to each other, what is control? So that's the kind of movie you're dealing with. But you know what? I ask that question every week

in therapy. So I appreciate that the Wachowskis are there helping me through it. And I'm getting my therapy by proxy through you guys. So I appreciate that. But I mean, the highway sequence alone in that movie. Unreal. It's like the T-Rex chase in Jurassic Park. But if Sam Neill got out halfway through and started fighting the T-Rex with a sword. What is not to like about that? I'm with you completely. It's pretty mind-blowing. Gosh. Reloaded 4. I would be comfortable with that.

I'm cool with that. The top three are really great. Reloaded at 4. You're going to tell me that Speed Racer is superior to Bound? I am, I think. Wow. Go. Make your case know if i go make your case go ahead make your case uh keep movies weird is my case okay first and foremost yeah honestly the case for speed racer is probably an interesting case for matrix resurrections which is when it

came out we were not ready for it it was a we were a dark knight, Iron Man world. And in retrospect, the candy coating on that movie, the editing of that movie, somehow it's like an art versus commerce movie, a professional sports movie. It's like everything, but also like the best racing I think maybe has looked in a movie. But it's all green screen. It's all digital. It's wild. And the emotional core of it, I think, works. And maybe that's just me coming to it as a

younger brother uh in real life but uh i think the heart of that movie works but in a way where every time it's about to get too serious smash cut to you know uh john goodman making a goofy face and it just takes all the air out of the thing in a really appealing way i i i love that full throated defense of speed racer that's what i'm here for. We've never talked about Speed Racer on this show in four years. It's never come up. It is... You're not alone. That's actually become a widely accepted opinion about this movie,

that it was ignored wrongly when it was first released or dismissed wrongly when it was first released. There are dozens of us. Dozens of us. I think putting it above B bound would be pretty bold i think bound is like legitimately in the conversation for best neo-noir movie ever made um i think it features all of the kinds of stories that they want to tell in that first you know six million dollar little mini movie that they they launch with uh incredible performances from gina gershon and and jennifer tilly and joe pantoliano style for days i mean this movie looks so good so sexy great general like thriller aspect to it

that is still entertaining to this moment we got three movies left we've made cases for bound and speed racer safe to say the matrix is going number one rob are you gonna are you gonna no no bid for speed racer number one right no no i'm not i'm not that crazy amanda i need you to be a tiebreaker on two and three yeah so i mean bound is the interesting thing where as sean said it's the debut that contains it's like the rosetta stone it has the source code for everything that is coming and also it's it's unfair because just like genre wise and what it's it's like the Rosetta Stone. It has the source code for everything that is coming. And also it's, it's unfair. Cause just like genre wise and what it's, it's,

you know, more like a man of style movie. Yeah. I really, really like Rob's boldness, you know, like I, I feel like we're not brave enough on these lists sometimes.

And like, sometimes I try to be brave and then Sean is like, no, we have to do this instead. So. I mean, this is your chance. If you say it's speed racer, sometimes I try to be brave and then Sean is like, no, we have to do this instead. So, I mean, this is your chance. I,

if you say it's speed racer, it's speed racer at number two, Amanda, come, come sit down to breakfast alongside your monkey sidekick. Let's do it. Let's go. Let's do speed racer.

Let's be original. Let's, you know, mess with the, the, the context and, and, and be bold. Just like, i think the wachowskis

would respect it i feel okay about this here's here are the rankings uh number eight jupiter ascending number seven the matrix revolutions number six the matrix resurrections number five cloud atlas number four the matrix reloaded number three bound number two speed racer and of course number one the matrix we've already talked about The Matrix at great length here in this conversation. I think that does it. Any parting shots on Resurrections, The Wachowskis? I'm just happy we're here together again, celebrating filmmakers who try to blow your mind every time and succeed like 30% of the time. And that's what I'm here for. That's what we can celebrate. I have one more note so we're recording this on december 23rd it's going out into the world then we're going

to try to like spend some time with our families over the holidays is this our wonder woman 1984 of 2021 where we see the movie we're like oh this is you know i mean i think this is a better movie and way more interesting wonder woman 1984 but you step away from the internet and then the internet left to its own devices goes completely mad it it very well could be i would not underestimate don't look up also premiering on christmas day on netflix it's so funny so there's a there are a lot of takes coming we won't be responding to any of those takes we do have a couple of episodes coming for you next week but they won't be about the matrix they won't be about don't of those takes. We do have a couple of episodes coming for you next week, but they won't be about The Matrix. They won't be about Don't Look Up.

Rob Mahoney, thanks, man. I'm so glad you were here to have this conversation. Bring some good sense. Bring some advocacy for Speed Racer. Yeah. Who saw that one coming? And a very generous reception from y'all. I appreciate you obliging me with the number two spot.

Amanda, thank you as always. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his great work on this show, The Big Picture. Stay tuned. We'll be back next week with a couple of more episodes and have a great holiday.