The Big Picture - The MCU Comes to TV: A Guide to ‘WandaVision’

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

After concluding their discussion of Part 2 of HBO’s Tiger Woods documentary series, Sean and Amanda dive back into the MCU by taking a close look at the first two episodes of Marvel’s first Disney+ series, ‘WandaVision.’  Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the bewitching hour. On today's show, Amanda and I will dive back into the MCU by taking a close look at the first two episodes of Marvel's Disney Plus series, WandaVision. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started.

Okay, Amanda, a little tease. We're not yet getting into WandaVision. First, we're going to start with a conversation about part two of Tiger, which is the two-part Tiger Woods miniseries that has appeared on HBO and HBO Max. What'd you think of part two? Well, it was obviously more to my personal interest set and also to the storylines that I remember I know about Tiger Woods. I mean, I know that he's an excellent golfer. I knew that he had an intense relationship with a very larger than life father figure, as do all men in the public

eye, it would seem. And I then knew about the massive scandal that kind of developed in the National Enquirer and then became just a talking point for like many weeks nationally about Tiger Woods' many affairs and his second life in Vegas and the disintegration of his marriage just like live on the Today Show. Yeah, so last we saw this film, it closed with a significant tease of Rachel, you could tell, who is one of his mistresses at the time and a woman who was really,

I think, the primary focus of all of the women who were not Tiger's wife in this story. And she appears at the end of the first part of the documentary as a tease to the second part which i thought was a very effective piece of filmmaking as we talked about earlier last week and i thought her portrayal in the story was interesting i think the film in part because she chose to participate sought to create an empathetic portrait of her and or at least allow her to discuss her relationship with Tiger on terms that I think most people didn't necessarily

get to hear it, which is to say she says that she was in love with this person and that they were engaged in a true and authentic relationship and not this kind of dalliance that I think a lot of people saw it as. What did you think about the Rachel? You could tell portrayal. Amazing to hear from her. And she has a transfixing screen presence. I'll just leave it at that.

You know, I think the way of describing it, the entrance in the end of part one is, is very well done. And know i agree with you i think so often in all of these stories in the tabloids you know with like a marriage breaks up and if it if there's another woman involved it the focus becomes on the other woman instead of the marriage itself in the tiger woods scandal she was kind of the lead of many women of who were all in the front, but she did shoulder a lot of it.

And so to give her the chance, and she says, she's like, if you Google me, it's still Rachel Uchitel, Tiger Woods' mistress. So to at least hear the other side of the experience, even if she's obviously going to play it, but it's her perspective. So she's going to tell the story from, hit the highlights as she would want them to be shared. I thought this was interesting, but I just also think that there should be an entire documentary just about

how this particular scandal played out in the media in 2009. It's fascinating. And the documentary is rightly putting it through the lens of what it says about Tiger Woods and what it says, like, you know, they make the connection to his father and what is revealed in the first episode about his father's infidelities and his mind state and a little bit about the tension between his picture perfect public image and, you know, what he was doing in his private life and also how it affects his golf. And all of that, I think, is like very valid and notable in in the Tiger Woods narrative. But I just am fascinated that this still happened the way that it did. It was I mean, it was such a big thing in 2009.

It was a massive, massive story. Like there are multiple morning show segments on it. All of these women were interviewed. It was every, like, it was all you could talk about in a way that I think we're more celebrity driven than ever. But also it, it was just like a strange monoculture event. And that has a lot to do with kind of where tabloid media was at the time.

Like 2009 TMZ has been around for like, I think four years. Social media exists, but it's not dominant. We have iPhones, but like, we don't record everything all of the time yet. So there's this, there's this moment both in and like reality stuff is just starting also. So our

relationship to like who is famous and, and how, what makes someone famous and what we expect from a famous person is still like, it's in transition, but it's still old school. So I think it's like kind of a perfect storm, but it's very strange. And it like to, after I watched it, I was like, Tara Woods is not the only person, only mega famous person who has had multiple affairs.

And it's like, how is not even close. It's so strange that this is the one. So I think you're right to identify it as a kind of a tipping point. And you think about all of the, just think about athletes over the last 75 years in the public eye. Obviously there were tacit understandings between the media, say in the 1950s, that if you were aware of a baseball player as a particularly carousing or unfaithful member of society, you just wouldn't dime on them, you know?

And there were, there were kind of JFK, JFK, the list is, is vast for people like this. I think a couple of things happen in the tiger case that are interesting. One is that, um, I, a person probably there, there are a select few people who have been more famous in the world of sport and internationally too. I mean, he was, he's a global icon. So that, that sport and internationally too. I mean, he's a global icon. So that is a factor. Two, it was almost unavoidable because of the nature of the revelation

around the car accident that he had. And the fact that it happened over Thanksgiving, over a long weekend, which I think amplified the intrigue around this story, not to mention the fact that as the film goes to lengths to portray, the National Enquirer was on this story before this event happened. And so there was this breadcrumb trail.

And Neil Bolton in this movie essentially becomes the avatar of the revelry that the tabloid culture took in telling this story and revealing these facts. And I do wonder, I wanted to ask you, essentially, if this happened today, if it happened to LeBron, Steph Curry, someone who is as visible as Tiger, do you think that the media would be as gleeful and as scurrilous as maybe it was 10 or 11 years ago? You're right to point out that how it happened certainly affects the coverage because it's not just what you know, but it's the order in which you know it. And so this did because of the catch and kill that you referenced, it does come out with the car crash, I guess, and the circumstances of the car crash. And then you remember the Taiwanese news viral videos? Yes. Do you remember when that was a thing?

And they do show a bit of it in the documentary, but I have a vivid memory of the Tiger Woods reenactment. I think that's when I became aware of those videos. And again, this was like YouTube definitely existed, but viral videos were still like that. Everyone saw the same ones. They weren't, you know, and like your mom knew about this. So absolutely.

The way this was presented was first and foremost, like a wife being really angry at a husband. And, you know, like even I remember the detail of the golf club smashing the car. And I don't think maybe we would get to a responsible place about it sooner now, but everyone's reaction to that is still going to be knee-jerk reaction. It's salacious. And I don't think people would be super responsible. And from there, then the people start coming out. I would hope that there would be a little bit more responsibility about some of the power dynamics and that sort of stuff going on. And also some of the racial undertones as well in covering Tiger Woods.

So there are a lot of complicated things here. But I don't really ever trust tabloid media or the general public to like get things totally right the first time. Yeah. And if the first part is an attempt to show essentially a boiling pot of water, you know, that slowly and slowly and slowly getting hotter and hotter and hotter, the pressure of being a successful athlete, the pressure mounted on him by his father and the way that his father essentially managed and introduced him to the world. And then kind of the expectation that he set for him. This is obviously meant to be the boiling over. I was most curious to see how the film portrayed the aftermath of the scandal. Because I was in the media when the scandal happened. I was covering sports and covering pop culture. I'm very familiar with that story story i followed it closely from both the tabloid

perspective and a journalistic perspective there was some good work done on it but you know tiger as they show essentially apologizes publicly in a very odd forum um which the film shows us and the sort of like almost the chilling nature to what he felt he had to do and who he surrounded himself with when he made that apology and then disappears for a while. And when he disappears, you know, we learned a few years ago in this great Wright Thompson feature in ESPN, the magazine that he kind of slipped into a life of military training in some respects. Um, and that obviously, uh,

greatly damaged his body, which we see in the film that we see him, the injuries that he sustains over the years on, on the course, and also in this, these training segments. And I think that there, there's something about that story that is still so unbelievable to me. So that is so much more so much more psychologically heavy than this guy slept with a bunch of women in Las Vegas. That feels so much more complex

and inexplicable that while I liked the way that the film told it, I also in the same way that you feel like you could do a two hour documentary about the tabloid execution of the Tiger Woods story. Also this story, I'm like, there's a two-hour documentary about the tabloid execution of the Tiger Woods story.

Also, this story, I'm like, there's a two-hour movie here. Like, I want to know more. I want to hear from all the soldiers that he trained with. I want to understand what actually the purpose of this moment in his life was. And we do get some of it, but I guess I was left wanting even more. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that is like a psychologically complex, like baffling, just, you know, mythological story almost, right?

Like, because with everything that it involves, it's when you do start to feel the absence of Tiger himself in the documentary. But also maybe not because i'm not convinced that if you sat tiger down no matter how many hours you get with him do you think that he has like a psychological understanding of his own choices and is going to be able to sit there on a camera and just be like so here's why i did it and here's what it's about like some of this is about a person who does not seem, who has emotions

but doesn't seem in touch with them, does not seem to know how to channel them, is really overwhelmed by all of the pressure put on him, all of the kind of things surrounding him in his life and so is doing some really wild stuff in order to access that.

Yeah, I don't know if we can say whether it's repression or protection. Is he protecting himself? Because as the years go by, there are fewer and fewer Tiger Woods interviews. There are fewer and fewer Tiger Woods on-camera appearances in which he is not being paid. He did recede from view. And he was, I don't want to say fortunate because he obviously earned all of his success in many ways. But when he comes out the other side of this,

when he returns to the game, which we saw a couple of years ago and has been ongoing since, the memory that we were left with was really not this scandal, at least not for me as somebody who has cared about watching him as an athlete for the last 20 plus years.

I think people just, they still want to feel close to the sport conquering person that he was. You know, I, while I'm interested in his psychology and of course, anybody who has lived the kind of life that he has, you do want something like think back to the last dance. When we,

those moments when Michael Jordan would be handed an iPad and look at what someone had to say about him and the way that he would react, like that told you everything you wanted to know about him. I'd love to have my tiger version of that. Of course, I'm willing to settle. I think for that 2019 masters win, which as I,

as I said before, it was just so scintillating and emotional in a different way. Right. Because he was both back to the tiger like the public and private tiger were aligning again um and there was also that uh that echo and like just like great cinematography of cbs i who i believe airs the masters right when he's like finally walking up with his son and like going you know and just oh it's incredible i understand that the setups at augusta are the same every year so So it really just mirrors the Earl and Tiger

when Tiger wins for the first time. Who among us who has a complicated relationship with their father wasn't in complete tears during that moment when he hugs Charlie. That was incredible. But like also, I mean, again, that is, that's like sports mythology. That's like, that's amazing that that happened

and that you have those two shots next to each other. You can't script it or you could, it's what you would script, but that is, that's so satisfying. But that is also, he had spent 10 years, like definitely not being perfect type a tiger, like back behind. And you were trying to reconcile the two and it was like very confusing. And so I think, sure. A lot of people are just like much happier when he's just like really good at golf and we don't have to worry about him emotionally. I like I hope I hope he's well. I think that's very smart. It did.

It basically did return us to late 90s Tiger when there were just there just wasn't as much intellectual baggage. It was just a pure enjoyment factor. And he was able to provide that. So just generally speaking, like, how did you feel? Did you feel like the doc was satisfying? Did you like watching it? Do you learn about tiger? I don't know if I learned about, I learned anecdotes because I ha you know, I haven't read the book that this is, you know, adapted from, I think in some parts. And I certainly watched some beautiful golf shots. I enjoyed it. And I think to the extent that like we have had interesting conversations about,

you know, what about this and what about that? It was certainly thought provoking. I also, just as a note to HBO, which doesn't care about my opinion because of the way I got the screeners, I watched part one, took a nice break for dinner and watched part two. That was like a very satisfying event. And I think kind of doing back to back nights, which you originally thought it was. And I think you kind of just like willed that into existence. But for me, that was like, it felt more of a piece. I didn't have as much time to focus on the spots that I was like, maybe, maybe this is a little soft here and there. So it was certainly engaging. That's a very good point.

And I think that is exactly what I did. I think I, because I watched it in a very similar fashion, I watched part one. Rachel, you could tell sits down at the end of part one. And I was like, I have to watch part two right now. Of course, we're very fortunate to have screeners so we can watch part two instantaneously. And I don't know that instantaneously necessarily

was essential for people on the night it came out but I think you're right that Monday night Sunday night Monday night would have been a good plan and I don't I guess we'll we'll see whether or not there was a sense that this kind of captured the conversation in the way that these kinds of films have to capture the conversation to kind of justify

themselves in the public consciousness I thought it was very well made I think I think Hamachek and Heinemann are really talented documentarians. I think there was a natural roadblock because you just don't have access to the subject of the piece. And so invariably there are moments when you want to hear his voice and you just did not get to. But as far as like a portrait of a major figure's life, I thought it was successful to do what it set out to do.

And I think it's interesting to talk to people who maybe don't have a big relationship to Tiger to see what they think about it and whether it's effective for them or not. Because I do feel like it's probably most effective for someone who is a casual observer. The serious fan probably has a fairly deep awareness of most of what's covered in the film. But speaking of two-part experiences, this is my elegant segue to our conversation

about WandaVision. Because over the weekend, the first two episodes of Disney Plus's first MCU entrant hit their service. And we're going to talk about it. Before we talk about it, I wanted to have a kind of a general conversation with you about Nick at Night. Because Nick at Night is really the religion hovering over WandaVision. It is the cultural experience. It is the visual framework. It's everything to this show, especially the first two episodes of this show. Because obviously WandaVision, as we'll get into, is an homage to TV shows over time.

And there's a few reasons, obviously, why it is that. But what's your relationship to Nick at Night? Did you watch it growing up? I did, and I didn't realize how much Nick at Night I had watched until you asked me that question. It's just something that was totally buried in like my subconscious or something. And now since you asked me and since I've seen these two episodes and have been like Googling Nick at night, I've just had the green acres theme song in my head for like

two days. Just like, I just keep singing it. Also, I feel like it's, you know, an apt theme song for this podcast to go to the person on the farm. I'm Park Avenue, just so you know. Damn. First time anybody ever accused me of being a farmer, let me tell you. So, yeah, I watched a lot of it in, I think, like a pretty unsupervised and probably unexamined way.

I just like Nickelodeon is what I watched. I actually did watch a lot of TV, spent a lot of time with Hey Dude, spent a lot of time with Doug and Rugrats. And then at night just watched whatever they had. And then also there was a very important after, no one cares, but I just am reminiscing about my childhood. There was a very important afternoon TV block because before Saved by the Bell, TBS would show, I believe, Gilligan's Island and then Brady Bunch. And I was consuming all of that. So you're just talking about stuff you saw on TV when you were a kid now. You literally made a whole section of this podcast about that.

Well, I think it's interesting because Nick at Night, is Nick at Night still extant? Is that a thing that people can experience? I know TV land also was a net was a network that came out of that and was somehow connected. And there's like, I don't know if it exists in the way that it did 35 years ago, 30 years ago when we were growing up this, of course, but for those of you who don't know what it is,

and I guess there are people out there who don't know what it is. It was the night block segment on Nickelodeon that aired old, mostly old sitcoms, old TV shows from the fift, 60s, 70s. And I guess as we got older in some respects, the 80s. But to me, it's Sweet Spot. The Nick and I Sweet Spot is probably like 1955 to 1975. That feels like the era of TV.

So we're talking about I Love Lucy. We're talking about Ozzie and Harriet, Leave it to Beaver, Bewitched, The Dick Van Dyke Show, Donna Reed, The Brady Bunch, Partridge Family. I Dream of Jeannie. I Dream of Jeannie, definitely a signature. Green Acres, as you pointed out. Mr. Ed. Mr. Ed. There were a lot of shows.

WandaVision is obviously clearly riffing on all of these shows and some of them very particularly. I also watch Nick at Night all the time. I think I'm surprised as I think back on how much time I spent watching Nick at Night because I think about my TV taste now and it really has nothing to do with those kinds of shows. I really don't like kind of any traditional sitcoms at all. And I think maybe the whimsy of some of those shows I still relate to and I still connect with, but I probably am like more of a Twilight Zone person at this stage of my life. And for the last 15 years, then I am, say, a Leave it to Beaver person, like a conventional domestic sitcom. Yeah, but I mean, you're just like a lighting a lot of TV and sitcoms. The sitcoms that were on Nick at Night are night are i think were considered to be the best

of their era and obviously like it's a genre that changes over time so no one's asking you to watch sheldon right now but you do like young which by the which i would like by the way i think no because i looked at the yeah you're right it is young sheldon okay because i think that's what they're showing on nick and bobby please clip out the segment where amanda yeah you're right it is young sheldon okay because i think that's what they're showing on nick and bobby please clip out the segment where amanda said you're right we're gonna need that just make sure you include it's young sheldon um i googled nick at night.com here's the current lineup young sheldon full house friends and mom and i'm just saying sitcoms have evolved you like you definitely watch sitcoms in the 90s.

You watched Seinfeld and Friends and all of those things. So it's the type of humor that was funny in the 50s and what they're doing and the Arasats version now is, I think, very different. It definitely is very different. I think the more high-concept shows of that time, particularly Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie, I think as the two signatures obviously are going to be resonant for the first two episodes of the WandaVision experience. So you noted to me before we started recording that the outline that I put together for this WandaVision conversation is the craziest one I've ever put together.

I was genuinely taken aback when I opened it. You sent it to me early. And I'm just going to go ahead and say, and this is not going to be a surprise to anybody, but because I know Sean's interests, I did not do any research on WandaVision before I watched it. I decided to go in as like a TV person as opposed to MCU person so that we could actually kind of, because I was going to have to play that role anyway.

So because I still think of Vision as that guy with a stone in his head. So I lean into it. He's not a guy, but okay. Yeah, that's true, though. You know what? I didn't know that when I started and the dialogue did effectively communicate that to me. Anyway, I just watched the two episodes and I opened to this outline and I was like, what's happening? And it shot. Okay. I'm doing great. I'm doing great. The reason I put all of this information here and that I want to share it in this conversation is because my, my first reaction to WandaVision was really, this is it. This is what you did. And I admit to just maybe not watching the show as closely as I should have

the first time, or at least as much as it engaged me the first time. And I found myself not confused by it, maybe slightly disappointed, but more just like, it's been a really long time since we've had an MCU, a Marvel thing to consume and Marvel, you know,

for all the criticisms that they're likely to receive, they eventize the shit out of things. The, the sense of importance around most of their stories, even with their most minor characters, is undeniable. There's big Alan Silvestri scores, movie stars, all this pomp and circumstance. And of course, this is what they promised us. It is a conventional 50s seeming sitcom style starring Scarlet Witch and Vision. i was like okay well they didn't lie then i started to read about the show and i started to look into some of the easter eggs

and then i started to go back into my comic book archives and then i started to read stories about the show and i realized like obviously it's just like every other MCU thing, which I genuinely typically like, which is that they like, they're stacking little tidbits of information in an effort to build a story over a period of time. So I got more excited about the show, which led to me dumping all this information

into our conversation. That's just so depressing. Like everything that you just's just so depressing. Like everything that you just said was so depressing because, and I'm glad you found your, I'm glad you found your way to happiness, but you were just like, I watched a thing. It had like, I, I didn't like it because it was not like, that's fine. Actually, I'm not going to be rude to you. You didn't like a thing. And then you went and consumed like a bunch of other like corporatized culture stuff around it. And then you were like, okay, now I guess I like it more, but not because of the thing itself, just because of like the, the world around it.

I will say that I did not like the first two episodes. And I stand by that. I found the third episode, which was shared with journalists ahead of time to be much more interesting and much more like a much more interesting conversation to have, which we obviously will not have here because that episode has not premiered yet. So maybe, you know, I'm sure we'll revisit the show as we get later through the season.

But I still walked away from the first two episodes not really liking it, but actually just, I think ultimately became more intrigued by what it is that they were trying to do when I started thinking about what stories this was based on, where it could potentially go,

what it means for the future of some of these movies that I like. So let's just let's do some details. The show is created by Jack Schaefer, and it's every episode is directed by Matt Shackman, who is the director of literally dozens of television shows over the years. He is one of the go to filmmakers for getting a show like this on its feet or when your favorite show has a key episode. He's worked on everything from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia to Game of Thrones. And obviously the show is shepherded

by Kevin Feige, who oversees all of the MCU and apparently is a lover of classic television. Let's talk about Wanda and Vision. Because a couple weeks ago we were doing a pod you're in some reference to vision you called him the guy with the stone in his head you just did it 10 minutes ago i mean he's still the guy with the stone in his head and then did they i don't remember did they like have to behead him in order to you know get it all in the gauntlet i'm glad

you asked would you like me to recap all of the yeah go ahead the goings i've read the outline but i don't remember okay uh wanda and vision in the movies thus far have been pretty ancillary characters you could you could make the case that they're the most underserved characters through all of these marvel movies that we've watched over the years so the scarlet witch is wanda maximoff she is a sokovian refugee and also a super powered witch who possesses the ability to alter reality and can shoot psionic energy blasts from her hands. She is really powerful. Like in the constellation of Marvel characters, Amanda,

Scarlet Witch might be in the top five most powerful. I would say the movies have not done a good job of clarifying that. I just want to say you have like real Mallory in the superheroes draft energy right now. Well, the truth is, is that this is a part of me this is a part of me i know or at least it was when i was more engaged in this and mallory is one of the great thinkers and critics on this stuff but superhero energy was when she just showed up with literally a 30 page spreadsheet of just like you know data about people's powers for like a joke that we did on youtube she she's definitely more of an expert on this stuff than I am, but I, I, I, it takes me back. It's a little bit like, there are a few things that

are like this professional wrestling is like this comic books are like this. Nick at night is like this things that were a big part of my childhood that I spent a lot of time memorizing, frankly, the worlds and understanding the scope of things like, uh, horror fiction is another thing we, I talked about the Dracula class class i took in college years ago all of that stuff mattered to me a lot more then and so it kind of just lives inside you and the only time you get to make any use of it is either when you're watching jeopardy or watching an mcu movie or i'm like in a wwe rabbit hole on youtube so here we are i had a chance to use it it's either watching jeopardy or watching a movie that's such a like just think about how you're describing watching movies whatever keep two of my favorite nerd stuff

keep telling me about i know but it's not a it's it's not a trivia contest oh my god keep that's true that's true um you don't know who vision is vision is an android he's not i know the show told me because the show actually has some exposition powers. But Jesus Christ, keep telling me stuff. Are you mad? I just feel like you've gone around the bend.

Like, you're both dragging me into your deep psychosis and also, like, I want to pull you back. It's going to be okay. He's a robot. I feel great. I feel great about all going to be okay. He's a robot. I feel great. I feel great about all of this.

Okay. He's a robot. He's a robot. The last we saw him, he died. Thanos ripped the stone from his head and killed him.

That was at the end of Avengers Infinity War. And they didn't redo it? So what happened is Scarlet Witch actually took the stone from his head in an attempt to save him. Thanos shows up. He uses the time stone. They go back in time to when Vision is still alive and then he rips the stone from his head

and kills him. So Vision is not in Avengers Endgame. He's not a... Yeah, but they didn't do the thing when they go back so Captain America can live another life. They didn't do that for like when they go back so captain america can like live another life you know they didn't do that for a vision well i mean that's an honest honestly a good question because i think it's relevant to what we're seeing on this tv show is is this an alternate reality is it a dream is it is this character going to come back into the mcu in some way

we honestly don't know um so the scarlet witch does show up in endgame she has a big showdown with thanos it seems like she's gonna make some hay and hurt him and then she doesn't that's where Um, so the Scarlet Witch does show up in Endgame. She has a big showdown with Thanos. It seems like she's going to make some hay and hurt him. And then she doesn't. That's where the famous, you took everything from me line comes from, which when Thanos responds, because he's not the same Thanos that she had encountered in the past. And he says, I don't even know who you are, which I like to apply to all marriage story memes. I think that's the best use of that, that dialogue.

Um, and then at the end of End end game thanos is is vanquished and scarlet witch shows up at a funeral and she pays homage to vision in addition to all the other people who died including tony stark at the end of that movie and then now we got this show um a lot of people have pointed out like i noticed this too in reading about the show there's like some movies you should re-watch before you look at this TV show. Your mileage may vary on that. I'm sure you're not going to rewatch all this stuff. But then when I fired up Disney Plus late last night, I noticed that all the movies that people were saying you should rewatch these shows were all in the carousel.

The carousel was just Avengers Age of Ultron, which is the movie that introduces Vision and introduces Scarlet Witch. It was Captain America Civil War and it was Thor The Dark World and Avengers Endgame. So if you want to watch those movies again, get a sense of what's going on with those characters, cool. Here's the thing about this

before we get into the show itself. There's a lot of comic book stuff, like stuff that has happened in the comic books that appears to be happening in the show. That hasn't always been true of MCU stuff. But if you've read House of M, which was a comic book series in 2005 written by Brian Michael Bendis, who's one of the great comic book writers the last 25 years, I think that a lot of stuff that happened there is basically what the mcu is going to be so if you i'm not going to talk i'm not going to spoil it or anything like that for you and then you ultimately don't care but it's interesting to me that they're

it seemed they seem to be very closely facing the early events here on something that like where we know a lot of the outcomes and it was always my understanding i mean i guess more they just bring characters than actual plot lines from comics but they do bring plot lines but they mcu has really tweaked them and i guess we'll see if they're going to tweak them in this case but they're already i'll give you an example there's a moment in the first episode of this show and this is an easter egg that many people have pointed out where when the dinner sequence is happening near the end of the episode there's a bottle of wine that is being poured on the table the bottle of wine is has a label that says maison du maipre which is a code for house of m um they're like already signaling to fans like you guessed it this is where we're

going and house of m is like a very big story that features not just the Avengers, but the X-Men and a whole bunch of other characters we haven't seen in this world before. And Scarlet Witch is at the center of that story. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that is like this that I didn't pick up on the first time I watched it. And so you may feel like I'm around the bend and kind of losing my mind a little bit, but it is the kind of thing that got me psyched about what they may be doing here. No, I don't think that that's the around the bend part, but let's just keep going.

Say hello to Tim Selects, Tim's everyday value menu. Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax. Try one or try our full Tim Selects lineup. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada. It's time for Tim's. So now let's talk about the show. So the show is, like I said, it's this homage to 50s and 60s sitcoms. The first episode is I Love Lucy and Leave It to Beaver

and that slightly more conventional late 50s style of show. And then the second episode feels more like Bewitched, Genie, Dick Van Dyke. What did you think of the show? Did you like WandaVision? I thought it was very clever and charming and was immediately like, that means it's a failure. Because I genuinely think if I'm like, oh, this is kind of interesting and I see what they're doing. And by the end of the second episode, there was like the beekeeper villain coming up from the sewer.

And so obviously they're rolling out the larger MCU plot lines. So it has that MCU flavor, but they're presenting it in a different way. And I thought the performances were very charming and the production value and the way that they kind of, they recreate and send up a lot of these sitcoms was well executed. At least, you know, I mean, it's like 20 minutes.

There's it. It's not, the first two episodes are not particularly like solemn, significant and game level events, but also I did know that they were going to, it was going to be a 50 sitcom. So I had some reference, um, you know, and I thought in terms of like, to me, there are basically three types of superhero stories. There is the, we got to kill a bad guy and the, who am I, what does it mean to be a superhero? Both in terms of like your

responsibilities as a superhero your origin story or like how you relate to the world and then there's the like we gotta meet up with other superheroes and like fight some bad guys so this is squarely a number two but it's kind of interesting right because it's it is asking a lot of those same questions and how do you like be normal and like how do you what is your cover story and what what do you like be normal? And like, how do you, what is your cover story? And what do you mean to each other? But like in a visually interesting kind of funny way. And I do also think it's an interesting comment

kind of on TV sitcoms as mythology. Like that, what is the quote American family is a very complicated thing. But for a long time, like TV sitcoms were how people worked that out. And so then you put a let me get this right which and an ai creature in the various sitcoms and you're asking a lot of those questions i don't know i think it's really clever i think it's what absolutely no one who knows all

of the facts that you just listed in this outline and on like the podcast like wants at all well okay so what you just described is literally the reason why i wanted to talk about it on this show despite the fact that you're not historically the biggest marvel fan and we don't talk about tv shows on this podcast most of the time um although that is increasingly changing obviously given what's been going on in the world and what's been happening to the world of entertainment but the reason i want to talk about it is i was like i think actually amanda will have a lot to say about this. I think it's potentially more appealing to Amanda than it is even to me.

And you heard me go through my spiel about like how I got myself more interested in what they were up to here. Because when I think about the MCU and when I think about the movies that they've made, you could probably suss this out from hearing the way that I talk about them versus the way that I would talk about the bank or Baccarat or any other never rarely, sometimes always. It's like the MCU is not like filmmaking in my mind. It's entertainment. It's a very specific kind of entertainment and it's very plot driven and it's very character focused. And I'm interested in the machinations behind those plots and the development of those characters and when they're introduced and when they're not introduced and in this show these first two episodes of this

show it didn't really serve my interests in this product but it did come more close to i think what you would be interesting to you in terms of maybe some of the satire in terms of the commentary on different entertainment forms and even in terms of like how we get to know and understand these characters. Yeah, I was going to say, in terms of character development, this is what it is. It's all character development.

And like, again, I barely knew who these people were and I kept just calling Vision a guy. I honestly didn't remember that she was the Scarlet Witch until like, I knew she was special, but I couldn't have told you her name until episode two at the end. I was like, oh yeah, Scarlet Witch. I remember that. I was very proud of myself. But you learned little things about them and you're kind of figuring out, you're like, okay, so I guess they're in the fifties and that was, that's before this. You have learned in MCU

land to understand that things are happening at different times that you're jumping around and a sitcom above all else is about just like hanging out with a group of people like that is the the thrust of the whole thing and i think i was surprised because you know i understood mcu fandom as you described it so like find out what happens plot and I think an essential part of the plot that is not featured here is also to find out what happens and what happens is like things being blown up you know I think like we underestimate like the spectacle in terms of the appeal and there there isn't that spectacle in these two episodes um and then but I also thought like spending time with these characters is like very important to people. But I suppose that there is a specific way that people want to spend time with these characters.

And maybe this isn't it. I don't know. I looked on Twitter today and I should say we're recording this on a Friday. And the show wasn't trending, which relative to, say Mandalorian wouldn't is, is a change. And I think as the episodes go on, that's going to change because there's going to be more and more revelations, but so much of the entertainment gambit is how can you stoke a conversation about your show to get more and more people to tune in? Obviously anything that's in the MCU has a natural advantage because there's a curiosity and there's a high level of awareness around all the stuff that they make.

But to start with two episodes that are like this, that are certainly like a little bit surreal and a little bit often have indications that there's something not right under the surface. But if you're not paying very close attention, just kind of seem like a cute homage to I Love Lucy, I think is kind of a risk. And it being successful with casual viewers, but maybe less successful with fans, I think is interesting. And I do think that a lot of fans will have the same reaction that I did, which is like flocking to the internet to see like, why is this like this? I should just say, I thought it was interesting and charming. I think a major mistake, and I know this is not the you know like all the names of his children um like doesn't show up and you have to wait a week I think stringing people out for 20 minute episodes in a with a lot of zingers just is not how anyone consumes television anymore and it's not how people consume comedy anymore like that you know office is the most streamed show far and away just because people

just mainline episode after episode of a comedy. But anyway, like I enjoyed it, but it's, will I finish this show unless we decide to talk about it on this podcast? I have no idea. There's no urgency in it without, um, without that forward plot and without the kind of simultaneous release. So it's not spoiling anything to say that there is a significant amount more urgency as we get to the end of the third episode. And so that actually was what I wanted to say was, I don't think they needed to release all nine episodes at once.

I think, in fact, The Mandalorian showed us that you don't have to do that necessarily to keep fan bases engaged. So long as you are spring-loading every episode with a, OMG, did you see this moment? You know, that really was one of the achievements of that show. In addition to, like, capturing the Star Wars aesthetic and being fun as a week-to-week adventure show. They kind of gave you a little nibble on the Star Wars high-level fandom conversation experience every single time or almost every single time. These first two episodes don't do that. The third episode does.

And so it was interesting that they, it was almost as if Disney sensed that critics might say what you're saying, having just watched the two episodes, and they wanted to make sure that they could say, don't worry, hang on. It's gonna get more Marvel-y, I promise. And that's fascinating to me.

Now, from that moment in the third episode, we'll see whether it lives up to that proposition. But I think there's an understanding that this show is not just a standalone experience, that what's being introduced here, which is probably the reason that these characters are trapped in these TV experiences is because they're in some kind of simulation or some kind of alternate reality or some kind of dream state. And that that is then going to be reflected in, for example, Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.

The next Spider-Man movie, which we know is going to feature all of the Spider-Men over the years, which is also a reflection of this idea of multiple universes, or that, you know, like the idea of characters breaking inside of the experience shows us that the metafiction aspect of what they're doing here isn't really happening, I guess is the point.

And so like if a show isn't really happening, but you also have to watch it to understand what's going to happen in the future. There's a kind of a paradox to that experience. It's like the nature of the more, more, more content gambit,

or it's like, we got to have more hours. We got to have more stuff like this, but how can we do it so that we move at a pace where we don't go get too far ahead of ourselves? So I think that's another interesting part of the show where it's essential to understanding where they're going, but it doesn't feel essential to our lives for lack of a better word. Yeah. It is so interesting though,

that it's just, I'm sure it'll ultimately be essential. Like the, you know, the beekeeper guy, who is the beekeeper guy? You want to just tell me? I literally don't know who you're talking about. Okay. Like the man that comes out of the sewer. Oh yeah. I don't know who you're talking about. Okay. Like the man that comes out of the sewer. Oh, yeah. I don't know who that is. Okay. Well, congratulations to Beekeeper Guy. That's your official name. He shows up and I was like, oh, all right. So they're going to do all of the Marvel stuff.

And there are Easter eggs that I didn't catch one. Don't worry, guys. But other people did. Everything's there in the episode. It's very clear there's going gonna be a plot there's gonna be like MCU information you're gonna have that experience and it's it's really wild and like a little depressing to me that quite literally 40 minutes of someone's life spent watching what I thought was like a pretty charming thing with like great comedic performances

by Elizabeth Olsen and Paul Bettany and Catherine Han shows up and Tiana Paris. And like, it was just very charming. And you get to spend more time with characters who you like, who are owned by like a mega conglomeration, but whatever, it's fine. They're your friends. Like that, that is not acceptable that like even 40 minutes, people are just kind of like, this isn't what I want from this. And I need the other thing. And every single moment needs to be going for it. It's like, it's really intense, man. Like it's just, it's a lot. I don't want to project that on all viewers. I I'll just, I I'll speak for myself. And that's, and that is because of the way that I described the relationship I have to it, which is just that

it is an engine of plot in many ways. And it is an engine of expectation. And there's obviously lots of danger with that and the way that we consume stuff because then we can't necessarily take away a kind of creative intent, have any enjoyment. You know, everything becomes part of this ongoing narrative. But it's like, it's a real I am who I am situation. I'm kind of stuck with this mentality. Totally.

I just, I think I walked away from being like, oh, huh, they tried they tried something hey look at them you know and and some of it works more than others and like it's fine they're all gonna come home to the big machine in the sky at some point but like they're they're trying to think but it seems like there's not room for experimentation and and and in some ways of course there's not because what phase is it in Marvel at this point? This is, I guess, ostensibly phase four. Right. You can't mess with the machine.

Yeah, I suppose such as it is, but it feels really just narrow. Like kind of what the way they have room to maneuver. I don't think that this is a huge risk in that respect. I don't think that there... I certainly think more people are going to watch this show than almost any show that comes out in the next three months. And even if you read online,

you could see just based on watching Google Trends and things like that, the anticipation for this is extremely high, which then I think leads to a kind of a conversation about was this worth it or not? I think as the season goes on, people will get more and more excited about it.

The closer we get to more Marvel movies, people will get excited about it. I guess, let me use a very specific example of an Easter egg that I think would get people excited and see if this even occurred to you as you were watching it. At some point, I believe it's in the second episode, Wanda goes outside of her house and she sees in the bushes a toy helicopter. Right, but it's in color. It's in color. It's yellow and red. And on the helicopter, there's an insignia.

We see this insignia, I think, in another episode of the show as well. And it's the insignia of an important kind of Marvel entity. Were you looking at that thinking like, well, what does this mean to the story? Or is this just a faux surreal flourish? No, this is so interesting because I obviously knew that it was essential to the story. It's something from the other world, you know, and that's a signal. It's like, okay, someone knows where they are and like something's going to heat up. But did I see the insignia or know that it was like a special Marvel thing?

And that means that it's going to like this character is going to show up and then we're going to go to XYZ and it'll be like, you know, the 18th issue of what? Like, no, I have no idea. But so it did work for me in terms of storytelling. And I was, you know, content enough to be within the world of the thing itself. I thought that was effective. Can I a related thing? Yeah. um i thought that was effective can i a related thing yeah so the um the mean girl who's the head of the neighborhood association the mean woman i should say but she's like a real mean girl vibe

so when she actress emma caulfield yeah yes when she cracks the glass her blood is also red so i assume that she's a superhero villain, right? I don't know. The only place I know Emma Caulfield from is when she played Susan Keats on Beverly Hills 90210 in the 90s. Okay. I don't know that character. I will tell you there are two characters in particular on this show who are ostensibly really important to the Marvel story. one of them maybe kind of but almost certainly is agnes who's played by katherine han who is probably agatha harkness who is essentially scarlet witch's mentor and then at times her enemy and is like a is a pretty important and she's a much older woman in the comics and she's has a relationship to like salem and the salem trial. She's like a historical witch and she, she, the, the

costume design and the name and everything is all too close for it to not be her. So I'm assuming that that's where it's going. That's another thing that like, when I was watching the show, I was like, is this Agatha Harkness? And then I went online and everybody was like, oh, that's definitely who it is. So I think it's like not a bad thing to have that kind of relationship. And then secondarily, you might remember the young black girl in Captain Marvel, Monica Rambeau, who I think was the Captain Marvel's friend's daughter. Yes. Yeah.

And Captain Marvel takes place in the nineties and Monica grows up in the present day to become Tiana Paris. And then Monica Rambeau in the Marvel comics is a superhero. She, she's actually been a number of different superheroes over the years. So, and you know, people will see as the show goes on,

how these characters like evolve basically, but there's all these little dots, you know, that insignia on that helicopter is the insignia of a division of the the organization that nick fury the samuel jackson character is in called sword it's like the shield in space so it's something it's that's like an organization that is happening in space so now it's like is this now going to be a space story is are they in a manifestation of real life slash tv in space all this stuff is kind of under the surface of the show,

but you don't need to know it because you know they're going to explain it when they feel that they need to. But for someone like me, it honestly was fun to have like a post-game deep dive around what they may be driving at. Yeah, I was just also going to say you don't need to know it

because the show is like introducing tensions and questions within the confines of the show itself. I'm really mad that I didn't get any credit for noticing that the mean woman bled real blood and it's almost certainly has weird powers and that there's like, that's great. Like give me a gold star for understanding narrative tension in a superhero thing. We don't know if she does. Well, if she doesn't, then the logic of this universe doesn't add up. And I would like to hear from the creators because I paid attention. So I think that I'm not totally sure what that means.

I think the idea that the real world could occasionally invade this created reality is closer to what that represents like every time you see color it means that wanda is having a kind of intellectual experience that recognizes that she's in something that is not not actually happening that that was my read of it i could be wrong i mean emma caulfield could come back into the show and she could be a super villainous i i'm not totally sure um you you did you did mention the names elizabeth olsen paul bettany and i feel like maybe we should just talk about them a little bit since the whole show is them in in more ways than one um they're both really good in this and they have not been really given a chance to do anything in most of these mcu movies other than look majestic or angry and i thought elizabeth olsen in particular is an actress i've always liked, but has definitely never had a chance to do something like this,

which is so particularly comic and affected and kind of winning. And I thought she was great. I agree. I thought that they were very charming. I always thought that they were some of the more charming parts of the, I guess, infinity war. I was like,

I liked their storyline and then I was sad. And then I didn't remember what happened. But they have great chemistry. I mean, the talent show, the magic act, very funny. Like, that is a well-written, like, well-performed, great comic timing. It's good jokes. You have to up the ante every single time with another way that he screws it up and she has to correct it. And like, that's funny.

And then her little shimmies is she's like playing to the crowd. Great stuff. Where are you at on Paul Bettany in general? I'm very pro, I think. You know, for years he was a very celebrated kind of like number two guy. You know, he was always like not necessarily the best friend, but like very, very rarely at the center of a movie, but very reliable kind of handsome character actor. And I just pulled up his Wikipedia page and this is how he's introduced on Wikipedia.

Paul Bettany born May 27, 1971 is an English American actor. He is known for his role as Jarvis and Vision in the Marvel Cinematic Universe films Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Avengers, Iron Man 3, Avengers, Age of Ultron, Captain America Civil War, and Avengers Infinity War,

as well as in the Disney Plus show WandaVision. So this guy, who's been a very good actor for a number of years in Hollywood and is a classically trained London theater actor as well, the first three

sentences of his Wikipedia bio are like, this guy is a robot in these movies. It's pretty funny how what happens to people's careers when they get into this mainframe. Sean, look at the outline you just made. Of course, that's how it happens, my guy. I know. It's interesting. It's fascinating. What'd you think about, this is way off topic, but the insinuation that perhaps Chris Evans would be coming back to the MCU as Captain America do you think that was sad did you think it was exciting how do you think it will interfere with his ability to portray Buzz Lightyear but is he coming back as Captain America or is he coming back as the inspiration for the Captain America character in the biopic of Captain America real life, not Steve Rogers or something.

Whatever he wants. I mean, I watched every episode of Defending Jacob and I like that he tried and probably he needs to go back to what he's good at. Was there anything else about WandaVision that you actively liked or responded to? No, I feel like I talked for a long time. I mean, I liked that they tried stuff. I do think, especially the first episode, if you don't know what's going on, if you're not playing to the Easter eggs, it can feel a little SNL skitty and just like, hey, we're doing these characters, you know, but in this other way. But everything feels a little SNL skitty at some point point and you just have to buy in or not buy in yeah i think more specifically that's

a sitcom without a b plot right like i thought alan sepinwall put it really well in his review of the show he wrote there's less story than there is time to fill it it just it just most sitcoms seinfeld for example there was always a plot that maybe involved jerry and elaine and then another plot that involved kramer and we would toggle between these two stories in this show, which is only 22 minutes. It's Wanda and Vision, and that's the whole show. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's the one thing that is not conventionally sitcom-y. And so it did kind of drag a little bit in the first couple for me personally. But maybe that's, I think that is as much a reflection of the fact that I'm just not as interested in

watching sitcoms at this stage of my life. Maybe I'll feel differently when we get later into the series. Yeah. Again, I like that they tried. I think it, I don't know whether it will be interesting to see how they pull it all together for me personally, because if it does become, it's like a simulation and they have to like go to each sitcom in order to get, you know, the famous TV couch in order to build like the infinity, I don't know, sofa warehouse or whatever, that won't be interesting. But if they, if they can pull it off, I, I, again, I think it's cool that they're trying to invent new ways to tell these stories.

I think it's interesting that most people who really are passionate about these stories are not interested in that experimentation and kind of want more of the same. And I think that's also a real tension point for them, not just because of the types of projects that they have at this point, but also just because they're going to have to make more TV shows because it's going to be very hard to make movies at end game scale for the next couple of years, at least. Well, so I mean, I think you're suggesting something that may or may not

be true. Like I listened to Charles Holmes on TV Concierge with Van Lathan. They talked about the show and they're both comic book guys like I am. They're both big fans of the MCU. And I think Van was very enthusiastic. And Charles, I think Van was very enthusiastic and Charles I think was a little bit closer to my reaction which is like is this it I'm not totally sure if this is it and he obviously wants to be optimistic about it going forward just as I do but I don't know if that's going to be true across the board I think that this show also suffers from the same thing that every show and movie and anything that we experience suffers from, which is the first reaction is always like WandaVision is a great leap forward for the MCU storytelling. And it's extraordinary to watch them make a David Lynchian style magnum opus.

And I look at those tweets that are released 11 days before the show comes out. And I'm like, who is this helping? This is kind of like only hurting the show to put it in this kind of context. Because, you know, this is not a David Lynchian style TV show. I, you know, like, let's be honest here. No, it's not. And I think another thing to keep in mind

is that this was not supposed to be the first MCU thing back since Endgame, right? There was certainly Black Widow and maybe another project or two that we're not aware of. Falcon and Winter Soldier might have been also scheduled at one point to come first. So this is bearing like a lot of weight chronologically, just kind of in terms of buildup, in terms of fan enthusiasm.

And I think also first thing back from Endgame, which just implies like we're back, baby, in the really like traditional MCU sense, which I think that you were missing a bit. And if this was like just kind of, you know, we'd done all of our normal big ticket blockbuster stuff and this was just kind of like a lark on the side and, you know, eventually ties in, but you give them a little room to do some of their stuff. Maybe the reception would be,

maybe it would have like a different place in the constellation. I think some of that early noise was more a manifestation of seeing what happens in episode three. And there is like one particular plot strand that is, is weird. It's not, it's certainly not normal seeming in the, in the,

even in this structure, but it's not like an interrogation of the violence that underlies the suburban experience in America. You know, it's not, it doesn't really do what David Lynch stories do because it can, I mean, it's an MCU story,

you know, it has to be actually significantly more accessible. I think it's neat that people want to pretend that it has some sort of influence there that like, you know, Matt Shackman watched twin peaks for a year nonstop before getting ready to make this. But the truth is,

is he probably just watched with good reason bewitched and the Brady bunch and the facts of life as he embarked on a number of replicating decades of network television. What is the one era of TV that you're most looking forward to WandaVision aping if you continue to watch the show? Great question.

I mean, let's see them do a Rugrats episode. You know, go for it. Get Lil and Phil in the mix. Why aren't Lil and Phil Avengers? Okay? How about that? Great take. This really flies in the face of your feelings on animation, though.

Yeah, but I'm a child of the 90s. Like, I've also, there was an if attached to that, which is if you keep watching. Though, like, obviously, I would watch a Rugrats episode. I watched Doug. I watched Rugrats. I watched, like, obviously, Hey Dude. Was episode. I watched Doug. I watched rug rats. I watched like, obviously. Hey dude,

was it? Oh, Clarissa explains it all. I was about to say Claudia explains it all, but Claudia is from babysitters. That would have been a shameful error. And also, uh,

Ms. Mixed up files, Ms. Basely Frankweiler. I mean, I was raised on this stuff. So sure. Lil and Phil.

Um, I think it's actually fairly easy to keep watching this show because every episode is like 24 minutes, which is... That's true, but am I going to remember to log on to Disney Plus every week? Like, I might not, Sean. I don't know. I really... What if I have a really good tweet about WandaVision and you see it?

I don't look at your tweets. God, Sean has such good tweets. I should check this out. I won't do that. Maybe I'll wait till the end and then check them out. I mean, I think it's pleasant. I really do think they could have done this. And like, it's three and a half hours.

It's basically a movie, but it's not. And people love to just sit and watch it. There's honestly nothing better than a 20 or 30 minute streaming show. Please make all streaming shows 20 or 30 minutes. And then I watch all of them immediately. There's something very snackable about them. So I think that's a super missed opportunity, but I'll check in if they do a Rugrats app. Okay. I think that pretty much does it for us. There's any, any final thoughts about what would, what would be your preferred era of television? Thanks for asking me. I really appreciate um welcome well i i guess it would be a

seinfeld-esque 90s friends kind of experience i think that would be fun i based on what i've read it doesn't sound like they're gonna necessarily be doing that i think because this is also a domestic comedy it's much more about families as opposed to ironic hipsters living in big cities which which was a very, it was very Okaran in the, in the, in that nineties period. So it sounds like maybe Roseanne would be more of the template for the

nineties show, but I'm looking forward to it. I'm obviously going to watch every minute. They should make the Avenger friends, but the Avengers I'd watch that. But that is what they, that is what the MCU did. Like that's the whole innovation. They were like, we should just is what they, that is what the MCU did. Like, that's the whole

innovation. They were like, we should just make this like a sitcom, but also with explosions. Right, and then I just fast forward through the explosions.

So that's why I'm just like, give me like a will they, won't they over three seasons. But, you know. You remember the shawarma thing? Or maybe, I don't know

if you saw the stinger in the original Avengers, but like it ends with them eating shawarma. Like that was the, that was them being like, this is our must-see TV MCU. Right.

I'm open to that. Okay. I'm open to it too. We honestly have no idea what we're going to talk about later this week on The Big Picture, but in the meantime, we're going to figure it out. And when we figure it out, I hope you will tune in because we're going to be here later this week. Thank you, of course, to Bobby Wagner. Amanda, thanks for checking out

WandaVision. I think you should stick with it. Okay. Thanks, Sean. I'll let you know. Okay.