The Big Picture - The Most Exciting (and Baffling) Movies of Awards Season, Plus the Genius of ‘Andor'

Episode Date: October 7, 2022

Sean and Amanda get excited for the best movie month of the year, digging into some new October releases, including ‘Amsterdam,’ ‘Triangle of Sadness,’ and ‘Tár,’ as well as the best movies at the New York Film Festival and a brief celebration of the new Star Wars show 'Andor.' Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the good times, sort of. In recent years, October has become the best movie month, particularly the first weekend. That holds true this year in some ways. Today, Amanda and I will talk about a few exciting new releases, a completely baffling one, our trip to the New York Film Festival, and even a TV show. There's a lot going on, including the fact that my voice sounds a little different, Amanda, because I did in fact contract COVID-19. And so I am podcasting remotely, quite ill at the moment. How are you? Are you healthy? Are you well? Knock on wood. I'm healthy so far because I had COVID two months ago.

And so, and we don't think that we got it in the same place. But, you know, this is really just like a live blog experience of our health. We'll keep you guys updated, but I'm good. And I think you are in a really unique psychological state as well as a unique physical health state. I should just say that Sean spent the entire morning sending me various Paul Schrader gifts, which he actually does not do every day. You know, I know that some people might think that's just like standard operating procedure for you, but you're like in a particular kind of unique prison right now. It's been a hectic time. And by hectic, I mean incredibly boring

because I'm fully isolated from my family who thankfully is not sick. And we are on the eve of the Mets' first playoff series in six years. The last week of my Mets fandom has been downright awful, really about as bad as it gets. The Mets were swept over the weekend by the Atlanta Braves, which then sent them back down to the wild card.

And they're playing the San Diego Padres. A real thing. I feel terrible about that. A real thing that you said to me this week was the Mets hurt me worse than COVID has. So that is true. I don't want to I don't want to diminish the the the scary impacts of COVID-19. But honestly, last weekend, I I've never felt worse about my sports fandom. And now I'm also, in many ways, you might imagine being isolated in the way that I have

would be wonderful because I can watch all these movies. I have all the time in the world. I'm like Burgess Meredith in that Twilight Zone episode. And yet it just doesn't feel as special because I'm just all alone, just thinking about Paul Schrader's Lonely Men, and I'm thinking about what's my purpose in life. And is it to talk about movies that are just okay or maybe even bad? What is my purpose, Amanda? It's to watch as many movies as possible in a room by yourself, but it's kind of like you finally found your true power or your truest state, but there's always a catch. And know? And so in this case, the catch is number one, that you have COVID-19. And number two, that some of the movies on this

list for discussion today are not good. Yeah. So you and I have both seen quite a bit in the last few weeks and we've been getting excited and ready for award season. There's a movie that we're going to talk about first that was originally slated to come out in the middle of November and I think was hotly tabbed as an award season movie. And that's because it features one of the best casts assembled in the last 20 years in modern movies and also comes from a filmmaker who's been recognized by the Academy in the past. And something tells me that moving the film up to this weekend was done not just because it's a fairly quiet wide release weekend, but because in fact, this movie is not going to compete for any awards. I'm talking, of course, about Amsterdam, which is the new movie from David O. Russell, written and directed. It's his first movie in a few years. It's a, I don't know, you've written the plot description here.

Why don't you just kind of give the listeners a sense of what this movie is about and who's in it? Okay. Here's what I wrote in the spreadsheet, which is this is a screwball noir comedy then like eight question marks in parentheses inspired by the quote business plot more question marks for me sean did some late night wikipedia he can explain the business plot to you um starring christian bale margot Robbie, and John David Washington. Among many other people. I mean, this is a star-studded ensemble cast, which David O. Russell has become renowned for,

but Chris Rock is in this movie, Anya Taylor-Joy, Zoe Saldana, Mike Myers, Michael Shannon, Timothy Oliphant, Andrea Risborough, Taylor Swift, Matthias Schonartz, Alessandro Nivola, Rami Malek, Robert De Niro. There's a lot of people in this movie. It's a period piece. It's largely centered around that trio that you mentioned, Bale, Margot Robbie, and Washington, who meet during World War I and form this kind of non-sexual, menage a trois, emotional kinship. And through that, the story leaps forward into the future where we see the lives, particularly of Bale's character, who is a doctor who has sort

of fallen out of favor with high society in part because of his injuries sustained during the war. And he finds himself ensconced along with Washington in this sort of murder mystery plot. You mentioned the business plot, which is this historical fact. I'm almost reluctant to explain the business plot because it weirdly would be considered a spoiler for the movie, even though it's a historical moment. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yes, I think that's true. On the other hand, I forgot that this was a part of the movie that I saw and sat through. So it's a spoiler, but only if you manage to follow the narrative arc of this film. I'll just say that the business plot was a political conspiracy in 1933 revolving around an attempt to unseat the president of the United States and change the balance of power sort of in the run up to the rise of fascism across Europe and then how our country would be led and navigated. And it takes

a long, long time in this movie before you realize that that's what it's really about. Yeah, I was going to say, technically, this movie is inspired by those events. And there are things that you watch on the screen that somehow relate to the words that you just said. That's not what this movie is. This is not in any way a political thriller or any sort of, I mean, it's not serious in the sense of it's not a solemn, somber movie. Well, until it is for a second and at that point, you're like, I don't understand why this is happening this way. So it does not give a picture of the experience of watching this film. How about that? Yeah. And as you said, it's screwball. And so it's largely comic, even though it's not terribly

funny. And it looks good in part because it's shot by Chivo Lubezki, who is arguably the greatest living cinematographer. And that's kind of where the nice things I have to say about it end. This is a very, very bad movie. It's very oddly told. You can see the stitches throughout the movie, throughout it. You can see there are characters doing random voiceover throughout it. There are newspapers, like headlines that are explaining plot developments. It's really rickety and kind of all over the place. The tone is a mess. It does feature some strong performances. It's kind of hard to put Christian Bale or Margot Robbie in your movie and have them be bad. They're never bad. They're brilliant actors. But I thought this was unusually messy, even by the standards of a messy filmmaker,

and frankly, did not have a very good time. I feel like you had a similar experience. Yeah. You mentioned Christian Bale, who is currently on the cover of GQ. And he was interviewed by Zach Barron, who is my husband. And I just getting that out there. And it will not surprise you to learn. I thought the conversation itself was quite entertaining, primarily because Christian Bale is just trying to avoid Zach's questions for like, you know, five hours. And I was like, I feel you, man.

Like I've been there. I relate. Here is one of the quotes that feel you, man. Like I've been there. I relate. Here is one of the quotes that he did give Zach. It's a great interview. Okay. We made Amsterdam right in the middle of the surge in LA. I believe we had something like 26,000 tests because I spoke with the COVID safety expert and they were breaking down all the scenes before filming in order to figure out when my mouth would be open and saying, well, I see that you laugh in this scene, and then I see that you sing in this scene. And I, Christian Bale, said, yeah, but I might laugh in every scene or I might sing in every scene. And they said, no, but that's not in the script. And I went, no, this is going to change every day. We change every take. Which, yeah, that is apparent on the screen.

I do not, I found it hard to follow from scene to scene. And I totally, like plot wise, ideologically, I just, it felt like people throwing all of the spaghetti against the wall, and then you just looked at all of the spaghetti on the floor, I guess, to extend the metaphor. You and I used to work in magazines, and we worked in an era that was not the heyday of magazines, but comparatively to right now is more of a heyday of magazines. And there was something called de kill fee in magazines. And at some point, because media still made money and, you know, there were certain editorial standards, whether determined by people, whatever, that's a whole other bucket of worms. But sometimes something just wasn't working and it was not working. Sometimes it was for reporting reasons or sometimes it was just kind of like, we had this idea, we tried it, everyone did their best and this like did not come together. And so we will not be releasing it.

And we will pay everyone some money for their time. And this will just, this piece will be killed. And you can't do that, I guess, on this scale with this level of money and these people involved. But to me, I was like, oh, this just doesn't come together. This is a movie that if we didn't release movies, I don't know. And I were in charge. I would not have released it. It just doesn't come together. Yeah. We should probably talk a little bit about David O. Russell and the arc of his career in part because he makes these convulsive, frantic, wide-eyed dramedies, I would say. That's mostly the category that he has operated. And he's made a handful of pure dramas. The Fighter comes to mind. But for the most part, especially in his kind of blooming second phase with Silver Linings Playbook, he's made these kind of antic but grounded movies.

When Amsterdam, before Amsterdam was released, somebody said to me, I think you might like it because it's a little closer to the I Heart Huckabees vision that David O. Russell once had. I'm a big fan of I Heart Huckabees. I see that as like a pretty wild insult to I Heart Huckabees vision that David O. Russell once had. I'm a big fan of I Heart Huckabees. I see that as like a pretty wild insult to I Heart Huckabees. That's a movie that even if you don't think it's wildly successful, is at least attempting to do something that has very rarely been pulled off about concepts of sort of like existentialism and purpose

while also trying to be a kind of zany narrative comedy. Amsterdam is a movie that I think is trying to have a message, which is about the universality of decency and about how it's better to care for people than to trample over them or to try to dominate them. And I don't want to read too much into Russell's personal experience, but he's famed for being, at a minimum, a very domineering filmmaker. He's gotten famously into blowups with George Clooney, with Lily Tomlin. In Zach's piece,

it was revealed with more detail that he and Amy Adams had quite a blowup on the set of American Hustle. Trailing him also is just this history of controversies. Most pointedly, his 19-year-old niece, Nicole Peloquin, who is transgender, made an allegation of sexual misconduct with him. So he's a person who's living in a very fraught experience. And watching a movie like this, which is trying very earnestly to say that fascism and also the sort of corporate domineering arrogance that tramples lives to this very day is destructive to society and needs to be abolished and banished. And the one way we can do that is to just be good to each other. That friendship and the commonality of human experience trumps all. And that's a good message, but it just rings really hollow in the face of not just allegations and things we've seen on YouTube, like watching him make films, but also just looking at his history of films, which I don't even think evinces that point of view.

And I don't see this as a meaningful growth, honestly, when I watch the movie. It feels like somebody trying to launder their life by telling a story like this. And so in addition to it being, like I said, really rickety and not terribly entertaining, it just really rang false for me. So I feel like it's a pretty epic failure of a film. And you rarely see this with this many talented people all brought together.

And maybe the kill fee was necessary to your point, Amanda. Maybe somebody at a certain point should have just said no, but this is a very expensive movie. And the likelihood of something like that happening with this much power in play is unlikely.

It's kind of an extraordinary mess, in my opinion. I agree completely. And such a mess that my brain just kind of shut off at some point. I saw it in a theater full of people. It was a silent theater. And this is supposed to be a comedy. It was really, you could feel the energy in the room that people were just not connecting with it. And I think all of the points that you're engaging with those, even if you want to.

I don't know. It's baffling. Completely a DOA for me. Yeah, the other thing about it is you could set aside David O. Russell's personal history and professional history. And let's just say you're walking into this movie blind because you want to see the new movie with Christian Bale and John David Washington and Margot Robbie. It feels like a relic of the Trump administration in a bad way. It feels like during that period, that sort of pre-COVID, in the heyday of that time in American leadership, when people understandably, I'm sure myself included, got just really addled by the kind of day-to-day intensity and weirdness and rage that was kind of

coursing through the discourse. And a lot of artists were seeing a lot of these films kind of increasingly coming out now over time as people reflect on their past and they reflect on the experience of the world when they were growing up and then how it reflects on the moment now. And it takes a few years to make a film. So we're seeing a lot of art that is trying to reflect these periods. Oftentimes that art is not very good. Yeah. It's really hard to make good art about certainly the political climate, let alone the societal climate. I'm reading a film book, a film book that's coming out in a few months about movies in the 70s. And it's notable that a lot of those great 70s movies,

it took like six, seven years after the events of Kennedy's assassination and then all the terrible events in 1968. And it wasn't really until like 72, 73, 74 when a lot of the best films about those times came out. And this one just feels like a real knee-jerk, like fascism is bad kind of idea movie that like is, I just thought it was pretty lame. You know, like again, we've had a few movies on the show in the last few weeks where we're just like, yeah, this just feels really undercooked and like not that sophisticated and not that we're geniuses about the political climate or identity or societal change, but just feels really surface level. And maybe that's just a function of the difficulty

of making a movie in this time too. Obviously, you know, Zach's piece goes into some detail about how hard it is to make a movie in this phase. But David O. Russell has been losing his fastball to me ever since The Fighter. And this feels like the kind of inverted culmination of that, where each movie is worse than the last. And this one really, really just doesn't work. Yeah. I should say that American Hustle, which is sort of a similar approach in that it's vaguely based on an idea of real life people and then is a screwball comedy that isn't funny to me

also just did not work for me so you know whatever lane he's going down artistically is just increasingly it's diminishing returns to the point of no returns on this one for me i i feel bad like i i guess i'm being incredibly harsh and it's just that this didn't even my brain couldn't latch around it it didn't work so I'm not trying to be harsh I'm just kind of like I don't know what this is and it just didn't it it didn't didn't happen for me it happens I mean big time auteurs take big swings on films and they just completely miss. I was thinking about, speaking of the 70s, in 1975, I want to say, Mike Nichols teamed up with Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty and Stockard Channing for a film called The Fortune, which was also a kind of zany period piece black comedy.

And it really doesn't work. The script is inert. The storytelling is mediocre. The performances are weirdly not very strong with the exception of Stockard Channing. And it's like an on paper thing. This should be a home run. And sometimes they just don't work. And part of it is the message and part of it is the medium and part of it is the timing. But this happens. So it's not about picking on a movie. It's just like some movies don't work. And this one is one of those. Okay. Should we talk about another movie instead? Yes. Do you think this movie works? I would say about 50%.

Actually, no, that's not true. 66%. Okay. Which makes it interesting to talk about. We're talking about Triangle of Sadness, which is in limited release this week and not wide release. I think it will expand over the weeks. But it's very, very notable because this was the winner of the Palme d'Or and the second

Palme d'Or winner for the filmmaker Ruben Ostlund, who was a guest on this show a few years back for his last film, The Square, which I think you and I liked quite a bit. And he, of course, is the director of Force Majeure, which I think for our money is probably one of the best movies of the 21st century. And this is his new one. So what is this one about so this is sort of it's the conclusion to the unofficial trilogy that you just outlined and force majeure in the square which is about how it could be rich people suck or capitalism sucks one or the other or both this rarefied world uh sucks and we're gonna poke fun of it that the log line is it's a supermodel couple uh played by harris dickinson and charlby dean go on a luxury yacht vacation and uh hijinks ensue is is the shortest possible version and i

think to like name all the hijinks actually takes away from what worked for me in the movie so it is a it is a tripartite movie. There's basically three complete acts. The first act is solely focused on the relationship between Dean and Dickinson's character. We should say, by the way, Charlize Dean, who's really wonderful in this film,

tragically passed away just a few weeks ago. Yeah, very sad. Very sad. She was just, I think she was in her early 30s and she's terrific in this movie. The film focuses on the relationship in the first third. The second third is set entirely on the cruise ship, the yacht that they take the cruise on. And then the third act takes place not there after certain events take place. For me, the first act and the third act,

I thought were brilliant. I thought the first act was some of the best modern satire of beautiful idiots that I've ever seen. I thought the third act, which we won't spoil, was dynamite in part because of the performance of Dolly DeLeon, who is wonderful in this movie. Let's start the Oscar campaign right now. She's great. And it takes a long time for her to fully show up in this film and emerge. But when she does, she takes it over.

I think this is a perfect best supporting actress candidate. Let's do it. The studio, I hope they're listening because they should take your point. Because she's really, really great. The middle act, which is very literal and very obvious. And in some ways features some pretty amazing filmmaking. Particularly when things start to go awry on the ship. And if you've seen the trailer for this film,

you know that things get really gross in this movie. Let me just say, because I heard a lot about this and you were even like, Amanda, I don't know if you're going to like this because it gets, it was fine. It was, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't that gross. I've had a child, so, you know, I can hang.

That's, that's, I would not compare it to that but um it is it is different i guess maybe not that but like the the after you know then you have a baby in the house and it is i'm just i'm just saying you can't face you compare all movies to the process of giving birth and just see how they stack up i mean i have you know like was barbarian actually that scary or was it as not as bad as childbirth? I was talking about caring for a child and how often it goes to the bathroom. But, you know.

Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, you've got a boy and I've got a girl. So these things are different. I guess so. Anyway, it was okay

is what I have to say gross out wise. I think more so than the gross out factor, which as you know, doesn't really bother me at all. I thought the kind of points that it was making and the kind of rich people suck part of the storytelling yeah was significantly less sophisticated than when he was focused on say like a couple of 28 year old hot morons which was like that's that that's more of a modern thing like Louis Bunuel like made way better movies about this like 50 years ago you know what i mean sure it's derivative i was most annoyed with the first act i have to be honest

because i i found it um it was just a real yeah i know you know like it there were just a lot of comments about how you know rich people on instagram are kind of annoying and maybe that's just because i like use instagram so much and consume this that i like i just don't need this pointed out to me but there's one scene in the first act or well i guess it's the beginning of the second act but it's about the young couple i was very irritated i don't think this will spoil anything um they're at breakfast the first day, and the young woman in the couple, played by Charlize Deen, is posing for photos while eating, like, vongole, like linguine with clamps. And, you know, she's got the fork up to her mouth and posing or whatever.

And as soon as I see that, I was like, okay, so as soon as they're done taking the photo, she's going to put it down because she doesn't actually eat it. I know that because people on Instagram don't love it. Right. But not only does exactly that happen, but then she very like obviously pushes the plate of pasta away. And then another character has to have like a minute long conversation about how she doesn't eat the pasta. And it was just like beating this very obvious joke. Now, sure, that's specific to me, but I felt that there was a lot of similar telling not

showing. Really, I guess through the first two acts, because the telling not showing in a different way is, I think, what rubbed you the wrong way. And I found it like so. Or just like... When it commits to its own obviousness obnoxiously is kind of when it turned for me. And I was like, okay. You're ascending to new levels.

Yeah, it is pretty broad. And this is something I've been thinking about as I've been thinking about Ocelin's filmography, at least those last three films, which have really brought him to a kind of international cinematic fame. Force Majeure is in Swedish. And I wonder if what could be perceived as broad by the culture of Sweden felt somehow more subtle to American audiences. The Square is largely in English and features an international cast and it is a

step more kind of I don't want to say approachable but it is a step more broad and it features more kind of like obvious sight gags and is a little slightly more ridiculous and it's set in the art world so it's sort of justified because of the way like the necessity of telling a story in that space

is absurd by its nature this movie and the presence of we haven't mentioned Woody Harrelson who plays the captain of telling a story in that space is absurd by its nature this movie um and the presence of we haven't mentioned woody harrelson who plays the captain of the ship who also happens to be a communist uh which sure um i i love woody harrell i think you love woody harrelson too yeah woody harrelson i think is one of those 100% approval people. But his character is very broad. Like, ridiculously broad. He's not even a plot device. He's an idea device. Yes.

And that kind of like, that drags down the point a little bit to me. I don't disagree with you. And I think like this seems really show through, or not, this seems, everything is incredibly obvious through the first two acts but there's something about the way that the obviousness builds on itself where after a while i was kind of lulled into a i think at some point i started to believe that it knew it was being broad and obvious and was committing to that and i became a little more interested so this movie is about two hours and 30 minutes yeah it's quite it's quite long just as a thought exercise and we're not really spoiling that third act which is um like we said I think probably our collective favorites but if this

were just three different movies with that elongated to those three acts yeah would they work better because by the third act i actually was getting a little bit annoyed even though i felt like it was the best of the three it's so funny because i the third act was my favorite and i and but i was like finally happy and the time went by for me quickly and i spent the first 30 minutes being like i don't like this this is really annoying i've seen this before. I know there's nothing original and this is like not particularly elegantly told. And to me, there was something

about the cumulative effect and the doubling down and the doubling down and the doubling down that like was sort of durational. So no, I don't think the third act could exist independently and work for me in the same way. Okay, that's fair.

I just thought it would it's interesting because it felt like he had an idea for two or three movies and he found a way to kind of collide them together yeah which which in some cases can and it is not um you know it's not it's not it's connected like all the characters are connected this is not some sort of like chapterized piece but it's an interesting movie like i would recommend it and it probably is my my least favorite of the of the ostland three though yeah i think that's fair i think it's really funny that france has given these films to like palm doors in a row i just and it's it's a little i mean it's a little like you know jerry lee lewis france on on the second one it it is. What do you make of that? I don't know. French people are funny sometimes.

They are like self-hating and I think they probably think of this as more of a film about, maybe, I guess, the supermodel couple are British. Well, they're not French, I don't believe. So they think it's about other people,

you know, and not them. Must be. It's funny. France is really funny., and not them. It's funny. France is really funny. It's not funny. It's a messed up place, just like everybody, every place else. But I'm amused.

In hindsight, it is a kind of predictable Palme d'Or winner. And the Palme d'Or, you know, the Palme d'Or is a crapshoot. Some Palme d'Or winners are absolutely wonderful films and others are very forgettable. Him having two is pretty funny. You think this is an awards movie? You think it's going to make noise maybe beyond Best International Feature where Aslan has been nominated in the past? Well, I hope Dolly DeLand gets the campaign.

Let's do it. It is kind of obvious, you know, in a way that maybe people are, it's more accessible. I know I just complained a lot about all of like the Instagram commentary, but I I'm self-aware that that may be more insightful or new to people who aren't me. Um, and so maybe it's stickier. You could see it. You know what I just realized is that, uh, in fact,

also has not been recognized by the academy and there was that incredible video of him freaking out when he missed an oscar nomination that is on youtube i encourage people to check it out um i feel like this movie is pretty glib and i like glib movies sometimes but the academy usually does not and so i want i do wonder if this will i i presume it would be submitted in an international feature, even though it features a widely international cast. Yeah, but it,

it's glib, but it's also glib about people who rich people in a way that other rich people or people in the Academy or people who want to feel good about themselves can watch it and be like, that's indicting somebody else. And so I can feel good about that. So it can be virtue signaling. You know, that's kind of an interesting transition to our next film, which perhaps will be seen through similar eyes. Yes. I'm talking about Tar. Yes. Now, you finally saw Tar. Tar is in limited release this weekend i believe just in new york and los angeles so if you live in those cities um before we get into tar at all i think you should

see it i think it's probably the most interesting movie of the award season that i've seen thus far and we're going to talk about it probably at length with an entire episode later in this month we sure are we should we should acknowledge it now what what what is tar amanda so tar is the newest film from todd field i believe his first in is it 16 years is that correct that's right um and the shortest version is i'm just going to read your outline great outline sean a psychological drama attack tracking a critical stage in the life of renowned and imperious composer-conductor Lydia Tarr,

played by Cate Blanchett, that collides questions of power, artistic greatness, cancel culture, and identity. This is a fucking cool movie. It's a very... Cool is not the adjective

that I think anyone expected you to say after the description I just read. Well, it is to me though, because this is kind of, I would say that this is a movie not without flaw. And there are some things about it that I'm still kind of chewing on it. I think I may have mentioned that when I saw it out of Telluride. Yeah. But I, I kind of love that about it.

I love that there are things about it that are kind of unsettled inside me in a way that I don't feel about say amsterdam um it's got a couple things going for it that rise it significantly above some of the other recent films among them cape lanchette probably giving the performance of the year um in many ways like a summation of her greatness part of the interesting turn of this movie is that it's a movie about a great artist who like we just accept as great no matter what which is also what kate blanchett is kate blanchett kind of like got beamed down to the planet as a genius actor in elizabeth and i feel like ever since we've been like well she's clearly the best actress in the world and it just feels like she's always been there even though

it's only been what 20 years of her in films and so so I like that as a stroke. And then Todd Field, who is a filmmaker who I have always had a huge fondness for and have felt like I've been talking about when will Todd Field make another movie on podcast for the better part of five years. And it turns out that he has, in fact, been writing many scripts over that time, none of which were made, including an entire adaptation of Jonathan Franzen's Purity for Showtime, which was then never produced. Right, and Daniel Craig was going to star, right? Starring Daniel Craig, which is just remarkable that that was almost a thing.

We got to release all the Franzen pilots, you know? I know, I know. Like, should this be my new project? Should I just do like a 12-part investigative, you know, series like the Lost Franzen pilots? We got the Corrections by Baumbach. We got Purity starring Daniel Craig by Todd

Field. Let's do it. Was someone going to do Freedom too? I feel like Freedom was in kind of a pre-production at a

certain point too. Freedom might still be happening. I did read Purity. Purity was a wild journey. Very strange book. I do like Jonathan

Franzen. I'm not afraid to say it. Anyhow, Tar, Todd Field. I guess the thing is that his first two films, which are In the Bedroom and Little Children, which are these sort of... In the Bedroom is a very taut domestic drama. And Little Children is an adaptation of Tom Parada's novel,

which is slightly arched eyebrow kind of romance slash problematic family movie that is kind of funny to me. This movie is neither of those things. It almost feels in a way like he took pieces like tones from both of those movies and applied them to this movie, but made something way more sweeping, way more of a kind of big picture. Todd Field famously played Nick Nightingale in Eyes Wide Shut and worked and learned at the feet of Stanley Kubrick. And so the Kubrick comparisons will come hot and heavy. I think they're justified. Control is a big part of the story of this film. It's also the big part of the execution of this film. He's a real master filmmaker in terms of the way he controls what you see on screen, what you're hearing, how the story unfolds, which is sort of in this... This is how I felt watching it. It was like a murder mystery and the murder hadn't happened yet. There's something uneasy as you're going through the entire movie. So when I saw it, I didn't know how you were going

to react. This is one of those movies where I was like, what will Amanda make of this? And you hit me up a couple of weeks ago and you were like, I really, really loved it. So what clicked for you? I respond to control, as you know, which is a really fraught statement. But you're sitting there in the screening watching it. And I was just thinking to myself, oh, they're doing it. They're trying this really hard thing. And I was aware in a meta way of like I'm watching someone

walk a really fine line every single decision every line everything you're shown every shot is so considered to create a mood and like questions and doubt and like a psychological state as well as a visual experience as like they just like he's nailing it and he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing. And we spend most of this podcast talking about things that like kind of get out of control that don't really go the way that they were intended or, you know, it's a circus directing a movie, basically. So I think I was responding to the idea of a little bit also, oh, they're trying this because there's some prickly topics. And the Cate Blanchett character is meant to, well, it certainly evokes a lot of figures in recent public memory but

is a complicated powerful basically like an Ayn Rand character in a lot of ways that's kind of what I kept thinking about like this is a Ayn Rand film but they're making it work and they're also questioning the premise of a lot of the the things that you find in in literature like Ayn Rand as they're making it completely different with a different conclusion yes yeah yeah yeah but um that's hard you know it's just really hard and so you're just like oh wow they're doing this and also oh they are absolutely nailing this. And it just felt sort of electrifying both because of the, like the world and the energy that the film creates and also the like mastery with which they're creating it. I think I kind of had a dual experience. Um, and yeah, it was just really

exciting. And then there's a third thing of even watching the movie I realized how much I would be arguing with people about and not arguing but I had a lot of things to say which is what you said when you came out of Telluride of like I'd like to talk with other people about this and I would like to talk with other people about it I'd like to talk with other people about the Cate Blanchett character about how you're supposed to feel about her, about like what it's interrogating about power and the cult of personality and celebrity and artistry and how we think about great artists and how, you know, what about an artist and a successful person draws us in and what we're rooting for, you know, so all of the ideological parts of the movie. I'd like to talk about every single piece of clothing and interior in this film.

Oscars all the way down for everyone. It's immaculate. I'd like to talk about the ending. I'd like to talk about the reception to the film. I am curious about what other people are going to think. I'm curious about whether Cate Blanchett will actually win the Oscar because people will be, like, whether people will be intrigued by this

character or whether some of that virtue signaling will pan out in terms of how people respond to the movie. I don't know. I think the way that you and I respond to it is not the way that a lot of people are going to respond to it. I, you know. Part of me is a little bit like, am I going to be walking everything back in a month because other people will see this and respond to it in different ways and make me see the film in a whole new way, which is totally possible. It feels like touching an electric fence a little bit. And I don't know, I feel alive again. There's a lot of thorniness. I mean, the movie is this series of subversions and contradictions, which is part of what makes it so exciting.

It is not a message movie. It is a movie about interpretation. And it's very notable that the last time Cate Blanchett won Best Actress, it was for Blue Jasmine, which is a Woody Allen movie. And art versus the artist is a critical component of this story. And so it'll be even just even just the the campaign trail will be interesting to see how some of the filmmakers are confronted with some of these questions is this is a movie made by very intelligent people

um whether you like what you perceive to be the takeaways is real eye of the beholder situation but I I also thought that there was this really smart idea to set the film in the world of classical music, which is otherwise kind of fairly sleepy and not necessarily the terrain of famous people. There are, of course, like Gustavo Dudamel, for example, is a very well-known conductor, but there are not very many in the world right now. And even though this movie could be pretty clearly projected onto the world of movies or the world of now. And even though this movie could be pretty clearly projected on to the world of movies or the world of popular music or certainly the world of fiction, there are a lot of people who have gone through the levels of success and praise and then

complications thereafter that the Lydia Tarr character goes through. So it's a rich text. People should go see the movie. They should, I don't know if supporting the movie is the right phrase, but let's have a good old-fashioned debate about this movie because it's worth it. We should note that the film

is two hours and 40 minutes long, almost. It is very long. Yeah, it's long. So, you know, buckle in, take your snacks, prepare yourselves.

But I thought, in terms of something to see and talk about i i just i was electrified like really energized that's the word that i can get to it and that again i i don't know i think people are just gonna be like amanda thinks that lydia tar is like a good human i don't think that just so you know let's not let's let's not let's try to meet the film with the level of thought that it like mostly communicates the big question which i think is a really interesting one that we could probably talk about for the next 10 years is does greatness necessitate ruthlessness and in some cases um viciousness and that's that's a that's a question for our time so it's a really like it's a movie for our time for better and worse it really is

uh okay i wanted to talk to you about andor a little bit yeah now andor is being covered very very well on the ringer verse podcast by the midnight boys on the watch intermittently they had evan moss baccarat who's uh one of the stars of the show on the watch this week. They had Tony Gilroy! Two weeks ago, they had Tony Gilroy, who is the creator of this show, who's one of the greatest screenwriters, frankly, of all time, even though his CV is ultimately not as long as I would like it to be. But I wanted to watch this with you in a way because it is doing something that I know Chris and Andy have been begging for for years and that I too have been begging for for years, which is let's use the

space. Let's use the terrain, the terrarium really of Star Wars to do something different from Star Wars. And they finally did it. It's actually really funny that they did it. And Marvel actually did something somewhat similar this week, which I'll tell you a little bit about at the end of this conversation. But this is a way deeper and bigger and better version of it.

The show's pretty sick. It's pretty amazing accomplishment so far. We're only five or six episodes in at the moment and it's I think three 12 episode seasons is what's planned for this series. But I've been really, yeah, and it's like all confirmed and like is happening.

So one love the idea of an end point to love the idea of letting it breathe because it's a show that is really breathing right now. It is taking its time in a good way. And, uh, and three, I like that. I know we're headed somewhere, even though it's already a prequel,

the stuff that I know that is happening. It's an unusual thing where I'm like, okay, there's a finite nature of this story. We're not going to get into lost territory where we got to go six seasons just because. Very quickly, this is basically a prequel to Rogue One, which itself was a prequel to Star Wars A New Hope. That sounds elaborate and annoying, but it really is not because it's a very focused story on the rise of a rebellion and how a rebellion is built. And it feels very much like a World War II

spy thriller or like a story about bureaucracy and the way the government works or the way that the police state works. And I'm really, really impressed by it. So you're not the biggest Star Wars head. You don't hate Star Wars, actually, but you're not the biggest Star Wars head. When it's done well, I enjoy it. I should say that I am watching this series not remembering what happens in Rogue One besides the very last five minutes so when you were like

it's a prequel to Rogue One and there there is a finite end point which is appealing and is maybe what justifies

this being talked about on a film podcast even though it is a TV show with I think 36 episodes as you if I did my math correctly

because it's that structure it's not meant to go on and on and forever it is there is a TV show with, I think, 36 episodes, if I did my math correctly, because it's that structure. It's not meant to go on and on and forever. There is going to be a beginning and an end. It's a closed story, not loop, but arc. But yeah, no, I don't remember what happens in Rogue One beyond the final five minutes, and it doesn't matter. I'm really enjoying it. Chris Ryan loved this show so much that I couldn't let myself not like it, you know? So that's a disclaimer. And I will say, I watched the first couple episodes, and Chris had hyped it so much. It was like World War II spy, you know, plus Michael Clayton, like Tony Gilroy. It's incredible. You're in love it that like I had forgotten that it was a Star Wars series. So like when they're in space and they're just like doing Star Wars stuff in the first two episodes, I was like,

oh yeah, this is a Star Wars show. So it's not without it's Star Wars, but it all, you know, that that throat clearing or that setup is done pretty quickly and done like in an elemental way. So even though I barely remember anything that happens, I know who these characters are. I understand their motivations. And I really I do think that they created something interesting in the star wars universe that has nothing to do with star wars i kind of sometimes i wish that that is not the way that we had to make all entertainment now but um it's very cool it just it it looks great the i'm obsessed with the senator what's her her name? Mon Motha. Sure. Her.

Great apartment. The actress is Genevieve O'Reilly. Yes. Or Genevieve Riley, yay. Every character has their own world. And I mean, I guess maybe literally that's true. I'm not really up to like what's up with planets right now. And, you know, the lore. But it looks good. there's care there's character

development it's the the pacing and the dialogue are just tony gilroy doing tony gilroy stuff you know i i'm pro yeah i i think after the first couple episodes you barely even feel the star wars of it in the story there's not a lot of big shootouts with blasters and there's certainly no lightsabers here. The Skywalker family is nowhere to be found. It is a story about the Empire and the battle against the Empire, which is of course a critical aspect

of the telling of the Star Wars story, but it's not Darth Vader's Empire. We don't really see that side of the world. What we see it as is the same way you would see, I mean, this is really lofty, but in a movie like Z, you would think about the imperialist fascist governments and the way that they dominated their people and the way that people rose up in the face of those governments. It is in the spirit of that.

It's a little glossier and it's definitely Star Wars, but it's got a really, really interesting, sophisticated, diverse cast. It's got really good characters, as you said, that we're learning about slowly over time the way that the best TV shows and films and books let us learn about them. You know, it's led by Diego Luna, who's one of the best actors working these days. And it has this awesome supporting cast. No one writes dipshit bureaucrats better than Tony Gilroy. It is literally his superpower.

Kyle Soller in this show as Cyril Karn, who's like a security muckety-muck, is amazing. Stellan Skarsgård is really great as a backroom dealer slash rebellion supporter. Fiona Shaw is in this show. You mentioned Geneviève O'Reilly. Denise Goff now is kind of taking center stage room dealer slash rebellion supporter fiona shaw is in this show you know you mentioned

jean-pierre o'reilly so denise goff now is kind of taking center stage as um uh like a security bureaucrat oh yeah she's the tilda i feel like she's the tilda and michael clayton of this yes very much so yeah i don't know what's gonna happen that's just my impression um incredible production design and costuming i would wear a lot lot of the clothes that Cassie Nandor, the Diego Luna character, wears in this show, frankly. I think I could pull them off too. It's like my Portland look. Yeah, no, I was thinking through it.

It's like Space Patagonia, you know? Exactly, exactly. That's right. Yeah, I feel like if I moved to a forest area, I would be really happy wearing those clothes. This is just a good show. Occasionally, a TIE fighter shows up and like flies over

people's heads and you're like oh yeah Star Wars but it really doesn't beat you over the head and I for a change

I like that it's taking its time but also telling its story in 35 minute increments none of this like elongated I got you know

I don't want to talk about House of the Dragon here but House of the Dragon episodes being like 64 minutes like Jesus criminy like just cut it down man just cut it down we don't want to talk about House of the Dragon here, but House of the Dragon episodes being like 64 minutes, like Jesus criminy. Just cut it down, man. Just cut it down.

We don't need these long episodes. I quit. I'm out. I quit like five episodes ago. Andrew probably doesn't need us recommending it, but we're doing it. Yeah, it's great. Can we claim it for movies? I mean, it is a movie.

It would have been a movie 20 years ago. It's literally not because there are going to be 36 episodes. But it would have been like a three-part movie. They would have pitched it as... Right, it would have been a new trilogy. Exactly. Okay. And for obvious reasons, we're not doing that now.

Hopefully, we get a Star Wars movie soon. I'd love to have a Star Wars movie. I'm just... I don't... TV is fine, but I like movies, as you know. Do you want to talk about our trip to new york we had a great time until you got sick well that was that wasn't until i got back so let's let's recount it okay we went to new york for the new york film festival yeah we went really to see white noise right that was why we went yeah which was the opening night

a film and you and i got to go to the opening night premiere at Alice Tully Hall at Lincoln Center. That was just a blast. That was like a New York fall. I wore a dress. Fancy people were there. It was a bomb back movie. They were there at the end. The whole cast was in one of the boxes as people applauded for them. It was just a scene. God, I love it. We don't want to spoil too much about White Noise, so I don't know if you can spoil a 40-year-old Dondalillo novel. You always can, according to people on the internet. It's so true. People, I noted that I was seeing this,

and people on the internet were like, what'd you think, what'd you think, what'd you think? I liked it. I liked it. Your heart wasn't in that. And is that because you're sick right now or because you're still mulling through it? I'd like to see it again.

I thought it featured by far the greatest cinematic accomplishments in Noah Baumbach's career. Like there are a couple of sequences in the movie where I was like, holy shit, I had no idea he had this in him. There are things that I would say are literally on the level

of Spielberg in terms of like, take your breath away visuals. And frankly, like clearly inspired by Spielberg. Yeah. And then there was also almost like, I mean, I felt like it was conscious and especially given like the time period that White Noise is set in, you know. No question about it. But homage doesn't always mean you can match the skill. And I thought in a way he was matching. There were a couple where i was like you know particularly the sequence at the gas station and then what happens immediately after that where i was like wow yeah he really he pulled something off and you know he had a lot of money and a budget that he doesn't usually have and so it allowed him the opportunity to do some of that stuff but as i was watching the movie i

was like wow this sure is an adaptation of white noise which is a very strange novel some of which is not cinematic at all um There were other more grounded sequences. In particular, there's a kind of a dueling professorial showdown that I also thought was so wonderful and so cool. And there are other elements of the movie where you're like, if this isn't your wavelength as a story, I think a lot of viewers of the movie will be bewildered by what was going on here. But because I love white noise, I was on its wavelength the whole time. Yeah, it's a Noah Baumbach adaptation of white noise.

I mean, it's definitionally not for everyone. It's definitionally not a Spielberg movie, which is why the fact that he does that so intentionally in the middle of the film is really exciting. I think you and I are the target audience and we saw it in like the peak circumstances for seeing it, which was, you know, New York, New York in the fall, you know, the cranberries. This is a Nora Ephron reference. And we were just like, we're there. We made it. Everyone's so happy to be here.

And I was freaking happy to be there. And I had a great time. I'm sure that people will watch this on Netflix and will be baffled. Just as I am sure that people read White Noise and are like, what is going on? I think it worked for me. And I think it works a lot more than I expected to given the unfilmability

and even if it's sort of towards the end as you and I discussed after the film kind of becomes it gets so it becomes unfilmable a little bit the novel and the book and you can kind of feel it but there's something magic that's working for me anyway and i i really enjoyed it i agree the the the third act of the movie and of the of the book really enters like a level of kind of uh almost like noir absurdity yeah that it's very hard to render that part of the story but he does a couple of things too that i think are really clever and the way that he renders like the very obvious satire of 80s consumerism and how that kind of maps onto our contemporary lifestyle and also the like panic driven nature of that story and the way that that maps onto our contemporary lifestyle both of which i think work really really well it's a great new

lcd sound system song in this movie i was like hey this is pretty vintage lcd sound system it's really delightful yeah um and good and good performances too i said something to you on our walk to tavern on the green to the after party which was sponsored by campari has anyone ever been happier than me walking in a tavern on the green and seeing Campari stands like every five feet. You could literally drown in Negronis at this party. You couldn't get another drink, but that was okay because all I want to drink is a Negroni. I just, I was like weeping in happiness just, you know, at the altar of Campari. But before- I was happy for you.

Yeah, and you were just like, can I get a normal drink for the love of God? Someone please pour me brown liquor, please, for the love of God. You gotta work on that. That's your struggle. Anyway, on the way there, I said something that is so facile and obvious to you

that I'm like kind of embarrassed to say it on the podcast. But I do think this is true, that sort of this movie is to bomb back what In vice was to PTA you know which is like a slight like detour in in the great directorial project obviously inspired by a novel um with a cult following and a very strong um narrative voice and ideological take that... And a mysterious and elusive author. Sure. And dudes your age just absolutely love. And if the parts speak to you on their own, then the result will speak to you. And if not, you might wind up getting on a fight

on the subway platform like I did after Inherent Vice. So for me, it worked really well, but I don't know how much to separate it from everything we just said about our interest in Bombeck, DeLillo, and Campari. The Campari piece was just wonderful for you. I'm really... That's fantastic.

We didn't pose by the giant Instagram activation. There was no way I was going to do that, but I regret not forcing you to do it because that would have been good content for IG. this movie does not come out on Netflix for like three months it's going to be a while I think it's the end of December is when it finally hits so we'll talk about it again when it comes out when people get a chance to see it we didn't even mention it's Adam Driver and Greta Gerwig are the stars in this movie and they're great and Don Cheadle's in it he's great there's a number of great supporting performances

I liked it I'm not trying to down I'm not trying to downplay it I think what I don't want to do is like over announce my yeah exactly I don't want to hype it because I know that it's very personal to me and so as I was watching it I was like I literally had the thought like well people are gonna think this is fucking weird yeah which which it is I'm I'm trying to contextualize it but with enthusiasm which is just it really was like so deeply for us and wrapped up in the experience of it as well I feel I think this is really peak if this is coming out of Christmas this is really peak like put this on with your parents and then just imagine the boomer reaction to this that seems fun that seems great i won't be recommending this film to my father it's something i'll say yeah uh we did see some

other movies we didn't stay for all of the new york film festival we just stayed for a few days so we missed a few things and so we're not we're not going to cover every single thing that we saw in fact we only saw a couple of other movies together i just i need to talk about master gardner very quickly sure um master gardner is is the aforementioned new Paul Schrader film, which is why Paul has been on the brain. Paul Schrader, for listeners of the show, is one of my absolute favorite filmmakers and writers of the last 50 years. Deeply depraved man who has very complicated ideas about society, especially lonely men living in our society. I don't know that I necessarily relate to him,

but I certainly feel his pain when I watch his movies and also his ecstatic nature. And Master Gardener is weirdly, even though it's about an ex-neo-Nazi who becomes a gardener, a master gardener, and has his terrible past dredged up as all these men do in all of these films, especially in his recent trilogy of movies. I thought it was exultant and sweet. And I think a lot of people will be like, fuck this guy for telling a story about a neo-Nazi. I completely understand that. If you look through the history of Paul Schrader characters, you will find, say, in Travis Pickle, some deeply complicated, problematic, bad people. This isn't really that kind of a story. It's much more of a story about redemption and whether something like that is even possible in our culture. It starts Joel Edgerton and, uh, an

absolutely hilarious Sigourney Weaver as an, basically an old bitchy plantation owner and Quintessa Swindell as the young woman who comes into Edgerton's life and kind of changes his perspective on the world. Uh, that is a common structure in these movies. You may recall Tiffany Haddish in The Card Counter changing Oscar Isaac or Amanda Seyfried in First Reform changing Ethan Hawke's perspective. He is almost self-parodically repeating story structure. The movie opens with Joel Edgerton writing in his journal. And when that shot appeared on screen at the press screening at the New York Film Festival, people audibly laughed. People were like, this is absolutely hilarious because he's knowingly doing a thing now.

He's doing a bit about himself. I think it will be a divisive movie. It doesn't even have distribution yet, but kind of unsurprisingly, I really loved it. Even though it has, I would say it is not as tight as the first two and especially not as tight as first reformed. It's the, where it's going is much more positive. So if you like Schrader movies,

you'll want to watch master gardener. That's what I'm saying. Um, so he announced his next movie and the protagonist of his next movie is not a man. It's a trauma nurse working in Puerto Rico. Danger, Paul Schrader. What do you think?

But, but isn't he in the sort of like the vanishing zone? The dead zone? He can't get in trouble. He just says wild shit on Facebook every day. I mean, that's true. That's true. I'm interested though. I'm interested in his next act.

That's good. As long as he has you, Sean. He definitely has me. We saw Decision to Leave. We did. Speaking of Cannes Film Festival entrance and a film that many people thought would win the Palme d'Or, but did not win the Palme d'Or. I believe Park Chan-wook won

Best Director at Cannes for this movie. And this was an interesting one. It was not exactly what I was expecting. It's a pretty overt homage to Hitchcock, especially the Vertigo era Hitchcock films, which is itself a pretty strong pivot away from some of the other Park Chan-wook films that people will be familiar with, particularly Old Boy or Lady Vengeance. It does have some things in common with The Handmaiden,

his last film, which came out about five or six years ago. It's a real style exercise. It's a movie about obsession and why do we like the things that we like and technology and capturing our voices and the things that we've done I liked it I was hoping to love it and I didn't love it

in part because I thought it was really kind of purposefully convoluted the way that many Hitchcock movies are but I wonder if over time the more times I watch it I will come to like it more

the same way I like some of those convoluted Hitchcock movies what was your take on Decision to to leave he didn't totally follow it um per your note about the convolution is convolution a word i believe so and and we left and i think i i looked at you and a friend of ours and we were all like huh okay and a little bit just trying to figure out what we had just seen i think i i looked at you and a friend of ours and we were all like huh okay and a little bit just trying to figure out what we had just seen i think the stylization is a good point i

have thought about the takeout sushi dinner featured in this film multiple times and like that's so good in i know but that's intentional as well it is using all of the world and the, it's the trappings, if you will, in the story that it's telling. So I'm like you, I didn't love it. And I was hoping, I thought in addition to being convoluted, it was a bit slow. It is a bit slow.

And so that was kind of disappointing. I was ready. I. I was ready. I think I was ready for a bit more of a thrill. And I think it maybe purposefully isn't a thrill ride. I agree. But that meant I didn't connect with it in the same way. Yeah, it seems to be openly riffing and subverting your expectations of David Fincher thrillers and certainly those Hitchcock films or Claude Chabrol movies or films that use these very similar structures of an untrustworthy woman

and a man becoming ensnared in her plot. This goes all the way back to Barbara Stanwyck movies. I will say Tang Wei, who's in this film, is mesmerizing. The Chinese actress, who people will know probably from Lust Caution most memorably, she's really, really great.ale is also good in the film it comes out in a couple weeks i'll be curious to see how it's received i thought it was when i was reading about it i thought it was like a lock for best international feature following you know pretty shortly on the heels of parasite as a south korean entrant now i don't know we'll see it has It has been submitted by South Korea as the entrant. So we should do an international feature episode in a couple of months and kind of see where things stand because there's been some good movies. We also saw The Eternal Daughter, which I thought was a little slow too, Amanda. I'm sorry to say. This is the new movie from Joanna Hogg,

which I think you responded to a little bit more positively. I did. We had an argument afterwards about who had... This is a movie about mothers and daughters without spoiling too much starring Tilda Swinton was made in COVID so Tilda Swinton plays an outsized role in this film or maybe not outsized depending on your take on the on the movie she's in it a lot for sure anyway you and I had an argument about who laid has more claim to, you know, mothers and daughters, uh, you having a daughter, uh, me being a daughter. Um, I, I, I, I responded to this theme. I, I, and it worked for me. I'm also very deeply in the tank for Joanna Hogg. Um, so I was thrilled to see her new work and Tilda Swinton rules. Um, that,

that concludes my report. I can see what you mean about it being a little slow. It also speaks to another conversation that we have had in podcast form that I don't think has been released yet about, we can say ghost stories, right? Yeah. I think it's being described as a ghost story.

Sure. It's being described as a ghost story. And I think you feel that those are tricky to pull off it was i don't think i had had i'm not sure if i had seen this film yet when i said that and it was funny to just a few hours later sit down and see exactly what i was what kind of frustrates me about these stories which is the kind of like airlessness and emptiness of pursuit that often comes out of a ghost story and even some great great films um don't necessarily always click for me big for this reason like even the devil's backbone the

caramel del toro movie which is a movie this reminded me of a little bit uh they feel like a little bit like i'm being strangled as i watch them and yeah well that's the point it is it is and but for whatever reason that's not that's not a sensation I like. So I came away from this feeling like this was the least of her kind of big, most recent movies. I really, really like the souvenir films. I do as well. And I think it's sort of like a smaller, you know, work within her filmography. But I liked it.

I went to a couple of rep screenings while I was in New York. Can I tell you about them? Yeah, please. So on that Saturday, it rained. Yeah. And I didn't really know what to do. So when I visited a pavement museum, a pop-up pavement museum that our pal Alex Ross Perry participated in opening, and I saw some bands play pavement songs, including snail mail. They were fucking good. That was cool. And I was just looking at kill time in the afternoon after I went to that museum. And I stayed in a hotel that had a movie theater in it. And in the movie theater was playing a screening of Jean-Luc Godard's King Lear, which is a movie that came

out in 1987. It was a little scene, widely panned. And I thought it was fascinating. It was a packed house at 3 p.m. on a Saturday. Yeah. I don't think I've said the words Jean-Luc Godard since he passed. Perhaps that's a little strange. I feel like also it's a little redundant to take six minutes out and praise, arguably the most important person to film in the last 70 years.

I didn't want to do anything half-assed, but I also didn't think I would be the right person to do a good job to explore and explain Godard's impact, for example. Dennis Lim, quite notably at the opening of White Noise, someone who Dennis Lim has written about Godard many times in the past, I thought spoke quite beautifully about Godard's impact, his meaning, and essential nature to the New York Film Festival and to film culture at large. I've seen all the great 60s Godard movies. I saw a lot of them in school. I'd never seen King Lear, which is an extremely strange and purposefully difficult and kind of chaotic movie that was produced by Canon Films and Menachem Golan and Globus. And it features Molly Ringwald and Norman Mailer and Burgess Meredith and in a late cameo,

Woody Allen. And it is this discursive, philosophical exploration of the themes of artistry and what basically the premise is like Chernobyl blew up our society and it

especially eradicated all of our art and so one of William Shakespeare's ancient relatives is trying to piece together his works by interviewing people

and talking to people and he goes around asking questions it's like an incomprehensible movie and you know i wouldn't say i liked it i'm not sure how one likes a movie like that but there's there's famously you and

shakespeare not that's true we have struggles um i wouldn't say this is features a whole lot of shakespeare it has some some lines from king lear but it's a much more of like a provocative kind of outsider art subversion of the cinematic form which is kind of what all good art movies are. But there was a moment where Woody Allen appears on screen near the end of the movie, and people in the audience just started applauding. And it was a real subversive, kind of like Woody is my man New York audience, which I thought was really interesting and notable. And one of those only in New York things.

I was like, okay, there's some shit posters here in the audience here today. That was kind of interesting. The audience of people who are going to go to a 3 p.m. Goddard screening on a Saturday. I don't know what else you expect. It's a good point. It was raining. You never know. Anyway, I'm glad I went. It was followed up just seven hours later by a repertory screening as part of a

hip-hop icons series at the metrograph with hype williams's belly which is a movie that I've talked about on the show many times a movie I never had the chance to see in theaters I got a chance to see with my dear friend john karamonica um and uh it was fucking amazing It was one of the most beautiful movie going experiences I've ever had. Hype's vision of New York at that time, of Jamaica at that time, of Nas and DMX at that time, of the sort of like post Goodfellas crime movie. It was breathtaking. The movie is borderline incoherent. Nas is absolutely atrocious in his role.

But DMX is radiant. Terrell Hicks is radiant. T-Boz is radiant. It is... The light and the colors and the staging is awesome stuff. And this is a movie I'd basically only seen... I had a video cassette, a VHS of this movie that I watched over and over again as a kid

after it came out in 1998. And I just saw it through new eyes and I had so much fun. Anyhow, if you haven't seen Belly, you probably won't be able to watch it on 35 millimeter like I did, but check it out because it is fucking sick. And it is a crime that Hype Williams has not been able to direct another movie. I don't know why that is. Maybe Hype will come on the show one day and talk about it. He's still making music videos. He was the rap music video filmmaker of the late 90s and 2000s but um that was one of those like only in New York can I see Godard's King Lear yeah and Hype Williams's Belly in the same day I had a really great time that's really beautiful I didn't see any movies on my Saturday what'd you do I went

to Thai Diner oh nice yeah which was great I wanted to go. And while we waited for a table, I did some window shopping. I didn't buy anything. And then I had dinner with friends. And then we went to Abilene on a Saturday night. Oh, wow. I haven't been there in forever. Me either. I was like, wow, I'm back, baby. Yeah, it's still there. We had a great time. Me and CR spent so much time in Abilene. I know. I thought of all of you. Oh my God. That was really... We recorded a lot of non-recorded podcasts at Abilene, frankly. And your husband too. The three of us were there many, many, many times. Yeah. I miss Abilene. It's a great place.

Yeah. I've seen 23 movies in seven days because I have COVID. Yeah. Seems like you're doing well. So tell me a little bit about your strategy here. Are you going outside? Not really. I mean, I went for like a little bit of a walk yesterday afternoon, but I mean, I don't want to expose myself to anybody. No, I know. But are you just interacting with nature or is it like completely sealed off? Mostly sealed off. I'm sleeping in the garage. I'm trying to keep my family safe.

And it's fucking October. So I'm just watching crazy amount of horror movies. Every October, I watch many, many, many horror movies. We're doing multiple episodes about horror movies on the show this month.

You sat in on a very special episode. I did. I learned a lot. There were some Hellraiser references in recent days because I guess because the new Hellraiser is being released

and I recognized all the photos.raiser is being released and I recognized all the photos. So thank you to the three of you for my continuing education. It is in fact a horror movie draft that is coming soon. And I'm doing 31 Days of Horror, so I've just seen a lot of stuff. Maybe I'll talk about it with CR when we do an episode about Halloween ends later this month. There's one other horror movie technically that is coming out today, which is Werewolf by Night. Have you heard about this? Are you familiar with this? No. So Werewolf by Night is a relatively obscure horror title in the Marvel world. And at the most recent, was it D23? I can't remember what

Disney event it was. They announced that they were doing this. Very strange thing. It's a Marvel Studios special presentation. It's like a 55-minute mini-movie directed by Michael Giacchino, the acclaimed composer who composed The Squirt Up, among many other movies. And it's black and white. It looks like a 70s horror comic book. It also looks like a 40s Universal Monster movie. It stars Gael Garcia Bernal. And it's a lot of fun. It's way more what I feel like Marvel should be doing instead of these long, drawn-out, mediocre TV shows. It's like, do these one-shots and feature some of your best characters because there's some really cool horror Marvel characters.

I did a pod on the Ringiverse, I think last year with Mal, where I was like, Marvel should be leaning more into horror. It's the most reliable storytelling mode, and they have a lot of really good horror characters. Lo and behold, this was really good. And I just, I think the Ring of Earths, we'll talk about it more in depth. I know Van Lathan loved it, but it was clever and it was breezy and fun. And I'm sure it sets up new stuff in the MCU that people will care about. But for me, it was just, it was a fun time. So I'm glad i watched it um and it's smart too to just like theme these things around the seasons and around the holidays in a way that doesn't feel like too tacky you know there's no like cackling jack-o'-lanterns in this series it's like it's an old school monster show

and it was pretty good at that so i'm i dug it um will you watch werewolf by night no i have to be honest i started thinking about lunch halfway through that. But then I was like, no, I'm podcasting with Sean and he's sick and I got to lock back in. I don't know. Once you said Marvel and monsters and something, I was just like... The other thing that I was thinking about and I wanted to ask you, so are you sleeping on a pullout couch? Yeah, I am.

Okay. So what's your practice? Do you watch the movie on the couch and then pull the pullout couch out when it's time to go to bed? Or are you allowing yourself to just be in the pullout couch with the big screen, just like, I'm sick and I'm just watching movies in bed? I'm glad you asked. It's actually not a pullout couch. In my garage, I have a Murphy bed, which means it folds up into the wall. Yes. That's what it is. Unfortunately, the Murphy bed does not face the television. So I have to watch movies on the couch and then go to bed. Well, that's good though. That's kind of segmenting your day,

you know? Oh, sure. Yeah. It's riveting. This has been the most boring three days of my entire life. And now that's like, that's good. Quote, sleep hygiene as all the women's magazines have taught us over the years amanda as much as i love you and love bobby yeah um i'm only doing this podcast to break up this experience i need to just i need to just not be watching toby hooper movies from the 80s all day long while i miss out on the you know the dawning walking days of my daughter. That's tough to be missing. Okay. It's going to be okay. You can still see her outside, right? That's true. But that's even worse because then as soon as she sees me, she's like lunges towards me. I know. You guys are really,

really very sweet right now. She waves at you across the room. It's very nice. We're very bonded. So it's tough timing, especially after just coming back from New York. But nevertheless, I'm going to make the most of it. I'm just going to watch a fuck ton of movies. Do you have any projects? Well, I have this horror thing. So it's going great. Well, like I said, I'm reading that 70s book.

And I'm learning about a lot of movies I didn't know about, which for me is a real mind expander. And so I'm adding a lot of stuff to the list. I watched something last night that I always wanted to watch called The New Centurions, which is a movie about police officers in the 1970s in LA based on Joseph Wambaugh's novel. So I'm digging into some 70s stuff in addition to the typical horror stuff that I do. But I don't know. It's not the same as being out in the world. I got to get back to work. I got to get back to my life. This sucks.

It does suck. I'm sorry. I am am sorry can we do anything for you no you need me to watch anything anything and then like send you you know angry text messages oh that's a good question i'm gonna brainstorm on that maybe maybe the listeners can can at ak dobbins with infuriating dobbins material so we can talk about it on a future episode um that sounds good in the meantime actually my other project i forgot to mention is that I'm revisiting David Lynch because me and Adam Naiman are doing a David Lynch episode. We've been threatening it for a long time. It is the, I believe it's the 30th anniversary of Twin Peaks Firewalk with me and the 25th

anniversary of Lost Highway. So this means, though, that Mean Pod Guy won't be back for this podcast, right? That's a great character that Adam Naiman is developing. And I really enjoyed it. I enjoy all of Adam's work. I love getting to talk with him on the podcast when we're on at the same time.

But I really, I endorse Mean Pod Guy. We'll find an opportunity to bring Mean Pod Guy back. I don't know what it will be for. What if Adam just, oh no, he saw The Fableman's already and he liked it.

So he can't do that. That would have been interesting if he absolutely hated it. We'll find something that he despises and that he is able to surgically deconstruct and destroy in our conversation with him. In the meantime,

I suspect that we'll be praising David Lynch loud and proud. One of my favorite filmmakers, somebody who changed the way that I see movies. So stick around for that next week. And in the meantime, amanda thank you for enduring this uh very odd voiced it was my pleasure i hope you feel better that's sincere i know you don't believe it but that you know i keep texting

you what can i do so i don't know if you need soup you know where you know how to reach me it's all a bit you're a great friend i appreciate you also a great friend bobby wagner who produced this podcast episode. Bobby, thanks for all the work that you do. If you can make my voice sound like it usually does, that would be amazing. If not, I get it. That seems scientifically impossible. In the meantime, stay tuned to The Big Picture. We'll be back soon. you