The Big Picture - The Most Unpredictable Oscar Race, Plus the Directors of ‘Free Solo’ | Interview (Ep. 124)

Episode Date: February 7, 2019

We take stock of a Best Documentary Oscars race that doesn’t include ‘Won’t You Be My Neighbor’ and ‘Three Identical Strangers’—two of the most commercially successful documentaries of the year (0:40). Then ‘Free Solo’ directors Jimmy Chin and E. Chai Vasarhelyi join the show to talk about the challenges of filming a climber in a life-or-death situation (18:22). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Jimmy Chin and E. Chai Vasarhelyi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Liz Kelley. With the Super Bowl in the books, I wanted to let you know about all of our coverage across the site. We have Kevin Clark, Robert Mays, Roger Sherman, and more breaking down every aspect of the game, including winners and losers, key plays from the game, and the halftime show performance. Also, make sure to check out our YouTube channel where Kevin Clark talked to Amari Cooper on Slow News Day, and Roger Sherman chatted with players from each team for their thoughts leading up to the game. Be sure to watch and subscribe to our channel on YouTube.com slash The Ringer.

I'm Sean Fennessey, Editor-in-Chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. We have a kind of Oscars show bonus special today. I'm going to be having a conversation with Jimmy Chin and Chai Vasarely later in the show. They are, of course, the directors, the co-directors of the wonderful documentary Free Solo, which is about the climber Alex Honnold and his quest to scale El Capitan in Yosemite. But first, we're going to talk about best documentary at the Oscars. I'm joined by my Oscar show co-host, Amanda Dobbins.

Hello, Amanda. Hi, Sean. Amanda, I love documentaries. I think that's on the record. I've made many episodes of this show with documentary filmmakers. You're pretty much caught up with the best documentary category this year at the Oscars. It's kind of an interesting text. And before I talked to Jimmy and Chai,

I thought it would be interesting to kind of walk through how we got here because 2018 really was a doc boom. There were a lot of movies that a lot of people went to, among them Free Solo. Yes. Some of them are nominated for the 91st Academy Awards. A few notable snubs in this category. There were some omissions. Yeah. Some interesting omissions. Let's start by just talking about the nominees. Yes. They are, of course, Free Solo. Hail County This Morning, This Evening, which is a beautiful, fascinating movie made by Rommel Ross that we'll

talk about a little bit. Minding the Gap, which listeners of this show know was my favorite movie of last year. Of Fathers and Sons, which is Talal Durki's portrait of a Syrian family and the rise of Al-Qaeda and militant Islam, and RBG, which is a biopic doc portrait of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the eldest Supreme Court justice. Let's start with Hale County because there's gonna be plenty of free solo on this show.

Did you get a chance to check Hale County out? I did did thank you you helped me see it not a problem I think that this was certainly the surprise nominee to me of all of these

and it's interesting that it pushed out a couple of movies that we'll talk about but it's also it reminds me a lot of

the kind of doc verite that this category used to represent but no longer does you know Hale County essentially looks at The kind of doc verite that this category used to represent, but no longer does. You know, Hale County essentially looks at a county in Alabama that is bound by essentially like a community feeling around sports and family. But it does so in a very impressionistic way. It only really shows us flashes of humane experiences among people, you know, mostly sort of rural,

not people of means necessarily, just experiencing their daily life and the kind of the toll and the excitement and the joy and the terror that comes with human life, which feels a bit like a cliche capsule description of any best documentary feature. But I don't know, what did you make of this movie? Yeah, I think that's a good description. And I think it just points out that describing this movie is pointless. It's experiential in pretty much the total opposite way that, say, Free Solo

is experiential. That's about watching someone do a thing. And this is about being immersed in in not even one person's life, but a mood and a place and a time and just kind of what it's like to observe people. There is like a, the moments are chosen. I wouldn't say randomly. There's great purpose to them, but there's nothing linear. It is completely nonlinear. And you just are kind of like, you know, when you're walking down the street, this happens more like in New York, but you see something and you're like, oh, I saw a man leading out of the building with a trumpet and then something else happened. And like, wow, like what a like special little moment. Like, isn't life remarkable? The diaspora. Yes.

The American quilt. Yeah. And it has a lot of those moments of being like, huh, this ordinary thing that happened, but isn't that remarkable? And does a great job of bringing those together. And it kind of bookends them with, there's some text and some sort of like prompt questions to make you think about it in a different way. It's kind of meditative. It is very meditative. It is like there is a spiritual halo around the movie in some ways. It's primarily about African-American families and

young African-American people. The movies that it reminded me of, if you're looking for reference points, I thought particularly were pretty much like the heavyweights of verite cinema, like Barbara Koppel, Harlan County, USA, the Maisels Brothers movies, particularly those movies from the 60s and 70s that are sort of like perched on the shoulder of an interesting person. They don't do that sort of facing the camera interview style

where they're explicating what's really happening for you. This is not an Errol Morris movie. This is not a Michael Moore movie. This is not 20 feet from stardom. This is not, it doesn't hold your hand. But it does show you something that feels real. And theoretically, that's one of the goals

of documentary filmmaking. I thought that this was a pretty fascinating version of it. You know, you can rent this on iTunes right now if you want to check it out. It's a very short film. I think it's 75 minutes or something like that. I don't think you'll be disappointed. And it also, unlike Free Solo,

doesn't necessarily require the big screen you know people have told me well it's just incredibly immersive on the big screen but the intimacy of the movie i actually liked having it in my lap yeah i would be curious to see it on a big screen because i do think that they're just like as like beautiful cinematography and the the image making is certainly contributes to the power of the film. It was interesting. I also watched it on a smaller screen and to me, it felt, I don't want this to sound dismissive or reductive, but there was something in the way that I was watching

that was familiar to me as like a consumer of Instagram and a consumer, a person who watches a lot of intimate moments on my smartphone a lot now. That's interesting. And this is obviously, there's a lot more art and thought and intent that goes into this, but you're right that the way that we watch it,

it's not that difficult to watch at home. It makes more sense. I agree. I wish I had seen Free Solo in theaters. I did not. I know you just saw it recently as well. I did, yes. I'm talking to Jimmy and Chai a lot about the movie,

but I just wanted to get your kind of general reflection about the film. So my take, which get your kind of general reflection about the film. So my take, which you were like, save it for the podcast. So I will now repeat it on the podcast, was like, this is basically First Man, but good. Oh, man. I don't agree with this take for the record. But go ahead, continue.

No, and I also thought First Man was good and interesting, but this is like, I mean, it's serendipitous in a lot of ways because it's just like alex hannold is a great character and you meet this guy and you're just like holy shit you're fascinating everything you say is weird and insightful and you also have this supernatural ability and no spoilers but you managed to achieve this like dramatic thing so it's it's ready made for a documentary and one of the most interesting tensions to me about it was this idea of a guy who's obsessed with greatness, even though it could like very literally kill him,

which is definitely also one of the main themes of First Man. No doubt. But where First Man kind of has a void at its center, whether that's because Neil Armstrong was like that or because Ryan Gosling made some choices in his performance. This has like a lot of charisma and energy in the center in Alex Honnold. And I think that that makes a world of difference. It did for me. He is a fascinating person. I think they're very similar movies. I think they'd actually be a great double feature because it is essentially the toll of a journey. You know, it is what it costs to try to do something no one's ever done before. And Alex Honnold, as you'll see, if you

ever see this movie, has a pragmatic and curious approach to his lifespan and also his relationship to his girlfriend. And her portrayal in the movie is fascinating to me. And their relationship is quite interesting. And there are a lot of deep and complex ideas about sort of why we do the things that we do, why we are drawn to the journeys, the quests that we want to take in our life. And also sort of like what, where we come from, what our family was like, why we turn out the way that we are, that are done, I think, with not a heavy hand. And I really, really like Free Solo. And the first time I watched it, it didn't quite work for me as well because I think I was viewing it too much like a kind of a traditional Nat Geo quest movie. Right.

And it's not that. No. It also is a total character study. And I really liked Free Solo, and I hope you'll listen to this conversation that I had with the filmmakers. Minding the Gap, I've said a lot of words. Bing Liu is on this show. It's an important movie. And I don't say that lightly.

Yeah, but also when you say important movie, I think people's brains tend to turn off. And I think it's moving and tremendous. I was really, I was surprised by Minding the Gap and how much I connected to it. And, you know, I don't, again, I feel like I'm being dismissive, but there are a lot of movies that all the boys got like really excited about. And I'm like, okay, like I'll watch it. It's good to know what, what you care about. Cause you know, all the boys will

watch it. Um, and I remember about 30 minutes in, it just locks in and I realized this is a different type of movie and this is something really profound is happening here. And again, kind of like describing it doesn't do justice to the emotions that are running through it. It's really like the emotions that are captured, like real ass emotions that aren't manufactured. It's remarkable. It's pretty crazy. I would highly recommend if people haven't seen that, you can see it on Hulu now. I think you can also rent it on iTunes.

Of Fathers and Sons. This is the one I haven't seen. So I will just ask someulu now i think you can also rent it on itunes um of fathers and sons this is one i haven't seen so i will just i'll vamp a little bit here uh of fathers and sons is a triumph of access journalism it is essentially an embedded piece in which the filmmaker talal derky spends two years inside of a syrian. And what we witness inside this family is essentially a father who is, as I said, a militant Islamist and is aspiring to be more or less a terrorist, it appears. I mean, I don't want to cast aspersions on this person, but he believes in a very intense version of his faith and believes that it should rise at all costs. And he's raising two sons who are teenagers who essentially have to choose whether they want to partake in this

lifestyle or not. And it shows in real time them making their choices and how they feel about the world, 13 and 14 year old boys. Now, I don't think that that makes it a great film. I think that makes it an achievement. I wouldn't say this is the most watchable movie in the mix. I also wouldn't say that it necessarily has as much to say about this idea as it thinks it may. Now, there are a lot of conclusions that you can draw, but we don't actually get to the bottom of why a family or a person or a boy would want to commit their life to these ideas. Now, maybe it shares something with Free Solo in the idea that where you come from, the sort of nature versus nurture

dynamic is key. I thought it was very interesting because this just felt a little bit like a 2006 version of a movie that would be nominated for this. There was a kind of a cliche that if you made a film about the Holocaust, you would inevitably be nominated for Best. There was a kind of a cliche that if you made a film about the Holocaust, you would inevitably be nominated for Best Documentary Oscar. This is obviously not about that in that way, but it does have that kind of international take us into a world that we don't understand fully. We've seen other, I think, better versions of films like this. Cartel Land a few years ago kind of reminds me of this. It's Matthew Heineman's movie about sort of cartel drug warfare happening in Mexico.

I would give a kind of a modest recommendation to Fathers and Sons. It's interesting because this category seems like you have one of each type of documentary that we revere. That's the access journalism. Because as you point out, at some point, just the achievement of having so much footage and being able to see something that you don't normally get to see in this way like that is certainly one of the reasons that we value a documentary another is a character study another is kind of making sense of things in plain sight which is kind of what minding the gap is hale county too yeah and hale county is also kind of the visual and um very to eight achievement so is also kind of the visual and very to achievement.

So we do kind of have one of everything, including the final one. Yeah, we got the star movie. We got the famous person movie. You're on the record about not being a big fan of RBG. I think I liked it just a little bit more than you. Well, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is in the movie. She was interviewed. And I understand that there is great value in pointing

a camera at Ruth Bader Ginsburg and hearing what she has to say. And I value Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She's really important. Other than that, I was pretty salty about this movie. And, you know, it is directed by two women. I think these are the only two women directors nominated at the Oscars this year. So we should- Except for Chai as well. Yes, yes, I'm sorry. From Free Solo, but yes. But only in the documentary category. So we should be grateful for that. It bums me out that it's for a not very good movie, in my opinion. I think it's just got a level of, and I think this accounts for its success, a kind of pop-hokiness to it. It really aspires to make

RBG the pop cultural figure that she has been positioned by places like buzzfeed as rather than you know in in addition to a significant historical figure who has really shaped the concept of gender law and also gender relationships in this country for the last 50 to 60 years that's fine but men just get to have great historical documentaries written about them and i just i do find this is like classic. It's marketed to women. And so we got to make it fun and make other people care about it as opposed to just on her face. She is like a hugely important figure in American history.

No doubt. It's definitely not my favorite movie in the category. And, you know, it's interesting because we don't have Won't You Be My Neighbor. Yeah, which was shocking. So there's some conventional wisdom about this. This is Morgan Neville's portrait of Mr. Rogers. Morgan was on this show last summer talking about the movie. I am a huge fan of this movie. I don't think it's the most complicated film ever made, but it is a beautiful portrait, I think ultimately

about empathy. And it was a huge hit. It was one of the biggest documentary hits in a long time. And it's also a cliche to say that this was sort of a movie for our moment, but that is how people related to it. And the reason that it's not here, I think, is because one, Morgan Neville already won an Oscar in 2013 for 20 Feet from Stardom. And also, the Best Doc category sometimes overlooks the obvious choice. You know, Hoop Dreams, quite famously, infamously, I would say, was not nominated for Best Documentary. And there are a lot of versions of this over the years.

Now, sometimes they give it to Michael Moore when Michael Moore makes his great film. Sometimes they give it to O.J. Made in America, where it's like, there's just no doubt that this was the most important movie made this year, let alone documentary movie. I think it's interesting that in the last 10 or so years, I was saying this to you before we started, this category has gotten pretty close to right recently. You know, they gave in 2010, Inside Job won this award, Charles Ferguson's incredible film,

Undefeated, which is one of the great sports documentaries in recent years, one in 2011. 2012, Searching for Sugar Man, which, you know, I would have gone with How to Survive a Plague, which is David France's unbelievable portrait of the AIDS crisis in the 80s. And then 2013, 20 Feet from Stardom, You Could Make the Case that the Act of Killing, Joshua Oppenheimer's very inventive film that Chai and Jimmy cited later in this podcast is probably more important, quote unquote. But 20 Feet from Stardom is a delightful movie.

Excellent. Citizen Four, Laura Poitras' amazing film about Edward Snowden. Amy, probably one of my favorite movies of the last 10 years, mostly because I care about Amy Winehouse. And then OJ and then Icarus last year, which, you know, not bad. And this year, I don't know what's going to happen because not only is Won't You Be My Neighbor not there, but Three Identical Strangers is also not there, one of the other big hits. Very strange on that one. Really weird. We mentioned on the Oscar show last week that Tim Wardle, the director of Three Identical Strangers, won the DGA award for best documentary film.

And he's not nominated, which I find shocking. And also notably, Free Solo, Won't You Be My Neighbor, and RBG, and Three Identical Strangers all made at least $13 million at the box office. I saw three of those four movies in movie theaters, which is bizarre. It is. Like, I have never gone to a movie theater to see documentaries before, and they were just all in the air.

Obviously, I do this job, and I tried to see them, but that's unheard of. It's very surprising, and it's very surprising that two or three of those films were not really recognized here. The doc group is a small group and there are a lot of older members and is a little bit sharp elbowed at times. But choosing a movie like Hail County and even Minding the Gap is sophisticated and thoughtful and shows that they're really watching the work. And maybe they prize different things than we do. I think it's curious to me that they favor the sort of pop aspect of RBG but not the pop aspect of Three Identical Strangers.

Yes, I would agree with that. But otherwise, this is one of the few good categories at the Oscars this year. What do you think is going to happen? My gut tells me Free Solo, which is really one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to Jimmy and Chai because I think that there's something very monumental about what they capture on camera,

not just in telling Alex's story, but the actual physical achievement of what they've done because you can't overestimate just how hard it is to shoot this guy and forgive the phrase, but not kill him.

I mean, the difficulty of making this movie and not, I don't know, terrorizing him with their attempt to capture what he's doing is fascinating to me. So if you'd like to hear more about Jimmy and Chai's film, please stay tuned. Amanda, thanks for chatting about Best Documentary. Sean, thank you. I'm very delighted to be joined by Jimmy Chin and Chai Vasarely. Guys, how are you? We're great. We're so happy to be here. So you are working the circuit hard because you've made a beautiful, wonderful film called Free Solo. I have a lot of questions about this movie, but primarily I would like to start with how do you strategize for something like this physically

and intellectually and emotionally? Because it is not just a big commitment from your subject, but for you guys making the film. So I wanted to start with that. Well, you start ethically, right? I mean, I think that's the essential question of this film. It's kind of like the existential heart of Free Solo is this idea of risk and the idea that is Alex more likely to fall because we're filming as we're a distraction or not and how or why we could live with that risk. So, you know, we were interested in making a film before we ever heard about El Cap. We were interested in Alex as a character, as this kid who found it easier to go out and climb by himself without a partner, or found it less scary to go out and climb by himself without a partner

than to speak to another person, but who also kind of yearned for connection. So he saw other people like, they eat vegetables. I need to learn, teach myself how to eat vegetables in my 20s one by one. He wasn't hugged, but he's like, other people seem to hug, so I'm going to teach myself how to hug. Speak to strangers. And so this idea that like, you can be this loner, you can be scared, but with dedication and discipline and working just really, really hard, anything is possible.

Were you guys drawn to that risk that you talked about? Was that actually an appealing aspect of trying to tell this story? I mean, I think we were drawn to what Chai was talking about, but we were also drawn to Alex as a character, as well as Alex as in, you know, this phenomenal climber. And, you know, even the climbs and big free solos he did before El Cap were, you know, noteworthy of a film. But beyond kind of noteworthy climbs, it was always about his capacity to manage fear, to execute perfectly when the stakes were the highest. I mean, in free soloing, you know, one mistake and, you know, it's death. His capacity, essentially, to have absolute control over his mind and is something that every kind of athlete only fantasizes about, you know, just to be able to say, okay, the stakes are the highest. This is when I know I'm going to do things perfectly.

Most sports and athletic endeavors don't take that long. And you can fumble a few times. You can still come out winning or something like that. But in this case, for hours and hours at a time, you can't make a single mistake. And we were interested in exploring his capacity for doing that, his process and the why.

What was the conversation like where you maybe first proposed the idea to Alex? I assume that you guys brought the idea to him to try to capture scaling out Cap. Well, I mean, it was a kind of a crazy conversation because we're like, we're interested in making this film. And he's like, well, there's only one film to be made. And that is if I try to free solo El Cap.

Interesting. and you know we had to really meditate on this idea of like is this something we want to be involved in do we trust alex and his decision making do we trust ourselves and our ability to respect our subject and not allow the film's needs to trump that of alex's and also if we believe in him like are we inspired by this and that's where the needle really kind of, the dial moved. Because Alex has thought more deeply about his own mortality than anyone, really. You know, he thinks about this on a daily basis. And he has chosen to live this life. This is when he feels most alive. And that idea of like actually thinking about why we live and a life of intention in these broken times was something that was very inspiring

to both of us. What was it like? I was so struck by his just general practicality about the way he thought about mortality. And, you know, it's obvious that he has considered it greatly, but also, and you show in his relationship with Sani and the way, just the way he talks about his life, he's frank about if I lose it, I lose it. You know, Jimmy, obviously you have done a lot of climbing in your life. You obviously, Chai, you have captured this kind of work in previous films. It's not new to you necessarily, but the way that he talked about it was sort of bracing. And you could sense other people being braced by it. Yeah, I mean, the way he speaks about it is, I think, uncommon, right?

But I think it's to an advantage for him to see things objectively. And I mean, I think that that's really useful when you're trying to make difficult calculations, especially around risk, especially around the climbing that he does. Oftentimes you make mistakes in really critical situations because you allow the emotional side of your thinking or your brain to take over. And he's very pragmatic. Everything. It's about efficiency. It's about eating off the spatula because it's one less utensil to have to clean in the evening.

Everything he does, he's thought through, and he has an idea of the best practices for everything that he does over the course of a day. Which would suggest that there's something kind of calculated or too much planning involved. But what's so moving about this is that he does that because he relishes the moments when he's alive. What sort of a relationship did you guys have with Alex before this film? So I've known Alex for 10 years and have climbed all over the world with him and filmed and shot with him. And so I've gotten to know Alex very well. You know, he's a good friend and a peer. Did you sense any sort of metamorphosis during this process? Because, you know, you're in such close quarters, oftentimes he's living essentially out

of a car. Given that, did that change your relationship to him? And did that change also the calculus of the film as you were getting closer to him? Well, that's kind of the beauty of nonfiction filmmaking is you never know what's going to happen next. And when we started making this film, Alex was online dating. And it was this idea, I was like, wow, we've got a really scary movie with this amazing comic relief. Like how does Alex explain to women that he meets what he does for a living? Or does he invite them back home to the van? And like, we're living with him. Like, how does Alex explain to women that he meets what he does for a living? Or does he invite them back home to the van? And like, we're living with him. Like, how does that work?

And then he met Sonny, who is just a remarkable and emotionally intelligent human. And who is self-confident enough to be able to push back on him and say, this makes me uncomfortable, but I'm going to try to love you for who you are. And that was a revelation for Alex, the kid who was never hugged. And suddenly, Alex and Sonny were falling in love in front of our cameras, which triggered a certain emotional evolution in Alex that, you know, is profound. I mean, the two of them are still together three years later. And just there was something like profound. I mean, the two of them are still together three years later. And just there was something,

like it's a chemistry between the two of them that somehow she, by being accepted for who he is, he was able to open up. What about between the two of you guys? Obviously you work together, you're a couple. How does a story like this, do you find yourself having a meta conversation about kind of the risks that people are taking and why they do the things that they do?

Does that, did that feel already very familiar to you both? Well, I feel like, I mean, to be totally candid, we worked out a lot of these issues with Meru often on radio interviews like this or podcasts or in public where we would, people would ask us some very deep conversation, questions about our relationship. So for this film, it was more that it gave us a very intimate point of view. And I think it was urgent for both of us to give Sani the space to express herself and to be able to really lean into this relationship to allow it to be authentic. That it's not, woe is me. There's something different happening here.

There's mutual respect. And it also made us, I think, incredibly empathetic to both of them. But I also think that we, after working on Meru together, we learned a lot about each other's strengths and also each other's blind spots. And from that experience, we built a lot of trust and there's just a lot of different situations where I can look to Chai and think, oh, you've got this, or I know if she's saying something, like when I should be paying attention, because,

and I think vice versa, you know, um, and, uh, yes, on my side, always. Hers is much more selective. But I think that that was really helpful for us having worked on Married Together. And then in this film, it was a lot more complicated because it was kind of unfolding in front of us and the risks were kind of something that we really had to get our heads around every single day. What is the physical toll for you guys in doing something like this? Because it's somewhat difficult to tell. Sometimes you're on screen, Jimmy, and we get the sense that you are actively there with him, obviously with ropes. But for both of you as filmmakers, what are you really doing, especially in the kind of final 20, 30 minutes of the film? The physical toll is formidable.

I mean, these guys, it was a team that jimmy led of elite pro climbers who are the best of the best and they're also wonderful cinematographers and their days it wasn't uncommon that it was a 14 hour day with no support like if you're going up you know you've got to be ready to haul 50 pounds and you are changing your own lenses you're carrying your own water you're going to be your own craft services Jimmy's leaning back casually right now as we talk about this thing that sounds impossible it's what they do and they dangle 2,000 feet in the air

and it can't, like I don't think people it's really hard for me as a non-climber to get my head around it, it is amazing what they do and it's grueling and it's tough and they seem to enjoy it which is also the perverse part of it um but i would say that the most try not to let people know that i mean they really like it that's why they do it um that's why all of like that's why alex says that they enjoy it but

the heaviest and the most like the most difficult part was always the emotional aspect and the ethical question of you have to insulate him from our own emotions. And so it was just this like weight for two years. And weight isn't like a physical weight on our shoulders that was shared by the entire crew. And there's definitely some sort of like PTSD going on. I mean, because everyone did a very good committed job. But buried all their emotional baggage. it was hard are you are you all reckoning with that now in the aftermath as you're being celebrated for this huge accomplishment

it just makes the accomplishment a bonus yes you know because alex he free soloed l cap everything else is just like a nice addition. It's interesting though. I mean, you guys are here for a couple of reasons. I mean, you're nominated for an Oscar. That's a huge achievement. This movie is also very successful. And there's a lot of interesting things about that.

Specifically for both of you, you've now made two films that are essentially in this world. Jimmy, obviously you come directly from this world. I'm kind of curious if this is like a niche now and this is something that you do. Are you ready to do something completely different? Will you continue to make films together? Kind of wanted to get a sense of what you guys will do going forward given this success. Well, this is my sixth feature documentary. It's our second together. And what brings Meru and Free Solo to, like, what unites them, yes, is the outdoor environment in which they transpire, but it's also this really deep emotional narrative. You know, Meru was about friendship, obsession.

And, I mean, it's Shakespearean in its dimensions, and that's, like, what brought us together. Like, that's what made it special. And Free Solo is a really good example of how we work together because not one director could have made this. You know, we needed each of our strengths to make a film of that depth. And we were attracted to it because we understood that Alex's story could inspire courage in others. And that we were personally inspired by him. Yeah. But I mean, the niche is less the outdoors, I think, than wanting to tell great stories and wanting to tell stories that, you know, moved us, that spoke to us. And as we move forward, you know, we're always just looking for a great story and a great narrative. That has meaning, that makes the world a little bit better.

Are you working on anything at the moment? We've made a film kind of, we've been working on a film concurrently for a while about Christine Tompkins, Doug Tompkins, and Yvonne Chouinard, and Tompkins Conservation. And they're mentors of mine, and I'm very close to them. I mean, I think that the people that I look up to the most, those three are very high on the list. Not only because they've been some of the greatest conservationists of our time, but also, you know, they've really kind of defined an entire culture, like the outdoor mountain culture, and not just defined the culture, but an ethos for the culture. I think that they have an incredible story and an important story right now. You know, we're just really excited to spend some time in that world with them. And it's also an amazing love story. It's

about friendship. It's about passion. And they're just such private people that it's been difficult for us to take it on because we're so committed to them and we respect them this way. But it also seems like it's a way to allow audiences to emotionally connect to conservation. I'm always so interested in documentarians creating kind of a bond and in some ways, I think, convincing the subject to participate in something. And, you know, you mentioned your friends and convincing them to open their lives up and then show the world what their lives are really about. I guess has that gotten easier for you guys as you've gotten more successful? You know what?

It's about trust, right? So any subject has to trust the filmmaker. The filmmaker has to trust the subject. But also you have to trust yourself that you will treat your subject with respect irregardless of the circumstances. Like there is a way to make Free Solo that was incredibly sensational,

but we understood that we would never do that. We couldn't sign up for the job if we even suspected that. What is the sensational version? I mean, I don't know. Like it's very scary what Alex does. More death defying things like that. There are ways to play it up.

The music, everything. We could go really deep into psychology that we have no business being in. I mean, restraint was a big part of how we wanted to kind of portray the story because we just wanted to be pure and honest. But in terms of your question, I actually think it gets both harder and easier. So the easier part in working with people who you're about to make a film with is that we actually trust ourselves to make the right decisions. And when you say to someone, trust me, like you really mean that. The harder part is that it's very, it's hard emotionally to ask someone who you're making a film about to go through that emotional journey that they're going to have to face. Because you understand how difficult it's going to be.

And you understand that you may stop making the film, but you've changed someone's life irrevocably. Hopefully for good, right? Hopefully it's new ideas. Hopefully Alex has met all these new people. He is connecting with more people than he ever has before. But his life has changed, right? And that's the hard part because you just want to make sure that whoever you're making a film about understands the scope of what it's going to be. And it's also impossible to understand until you're there.

Yeah, I mean, that makes me wonder about whether the actual financial success of the movie has potential, has potential downsides. So this is now one of the 25 most successful documentaries in the history of American box office. So that's pretty amazing. Congratulations. Um, obviously it's a wonderful film to see in theaters and I suspect that that's a big part of it, but one, I'm kind of curious what you think just having spoken to people over these four months, what they're connecting with and why that's happening in that way because it is really unusual for the kinds of films that you guys work on and also if now there's some sort of new bar that you have to measure yourselves against in some meaningful way you never know how a film is going to land with an audience you can hope you hope that people see what you see. And we have been humbled

and it's just amazing to see this outpouring from audiences saying that Alex's courage inspires courage in them. That they're inspired by this idea that Alex just worked really, really, really hard at something and he was able to achieve his dreams. So that's wonderful. And there's also been this kind of sense of connection for Alex. Like suddenly people kind of get him, which I think is something that's new for him. So is it raising the bar? I mean, that's like the artist's question, right?

Like, can you ever make a film like the one you made before? And, you know, after Meru, I think we were very, very concerned and nervous. Like, are we really going to make another mountain movie? But this one was different. It was special. And we believe that it would make the world a little bit better. And it's kind of exciting that it gets harder in some way. Is it easier to raise money now? Is it easier to just get a film made? I don't know. I think that right now people are investing in nonfiction in a significant way.

And they've seen that nonfiction can actually do well at the box office. I mean, there's four films that brought in more than 13 million this year, nonfiction films. And so I think there is a lot more interest and investment. I feel like there is a bit of a tipping point right now for non-fiction films, for sure. But I hope it's the Iron Age, not the Golden Age. You know, this is just the beginning. Yeah.

I was going to ask you, having been making these films for 15 years now, what is it like to have seen this? I mean, this is a fairly radical moment for this art form. But like in like the 2006-7, like there was a lot of money going into non-fiction and then the crash happened yes and i'm old enough to remember that and i just think that people are probably hungry for truth and that is a reflection of our political times and i also think that non-fiction has proven itself that it is a cinematic experience and it's something you want to experience with someone else like in Free Solo you're holding someone's arm you're gasping you can't watch you feel the energy in the room in Won't You Be My Neighbor

you're crying because you feel you're remembering this communal experience we had as a generation of connecting to this one person you know know, RBG, same thing. So it's just that, or in Three Identical Strangers, you're just entirely, like, entranced and entertained. Like, the ladies who go to yoga with me were talking about documentaries, and that's crazy. So I just think... And all these

big celebrities, A-list celebrities, they're all talking about you know, the non-fiction films that they're seeing. Jimmy's just excited that The Rock said he really liked Read It Free Solo. I am. He said it was his favorite in a documentary or film of 2018. Which is cool.

That doesn't surprise me given what he prizes as a physical person as well. Yeah, yeah. There's something about achievement there. No, I just thought that was pretty funny. I was like, wow, The Rock watched the movie. I mean, personally, I would really alex to challenge the rock to like a pull-up competition like i feel like there's like an amazing viral video to be made about like who can hold in one arm for longer yeah and like recite poetry or like do math problems because

they both could do it that's amazing um so it's not necessarily easier you're not you're not changing the way that you do anything based on this this moment then i think in this moment like certainly we have more access and that's always the question about any independent filmmaking is access and that's also been what we've been seeing with alternative voices or like or um people of different backgrounds and the voices that are being expressed, that access is becoming more viable. And, you know, like different voices have access to money, have access to platforms, and that's something that's really important that's happening in the genre. And I personally

think that's why the genre is so strong right now, is that there's somehow this tolerance to a different type of storytelling that is giving us strength. Is it important to you guys to continue to have a theatrical experience with your work? I think it depends on the film. We, I mean, it's all Jimmy in that he brings like a very, very strong aesthetic that complements the subject matter. Like the point of Free Solo was we wanted to make real, let audiences understand Alex's experience. And that had to be spectacular cinematically. That's why the IMAX experience is so special for us because like that's actually how the film was meant to be seen. Where you can feel the vertigo in that moment.

You can feel the splendor, the majesty. So I think it depends on the film because that's the point. Like, you know, you don't want to, there's no use in using tricks for trick's sake. One last thing about Alex. You mentioned that you think that the world understands him more and he senses that. Do you sense that he realizes

that like 30 million people watch the Oscars and that potentially if you guys win, that's a very, that's a huge amount of exposure and kind of what comes with that, you know, and, you know, many positives, but also possibly even some complications. Yeah, I think Alex has had his eyes open to this kind of world in Hollywood. And, you know, Alex has his feet firmly planted on the ground.

Except he doesn't. Except he doesn't. But, you know, he has, he's a climber's climber. He loves to climb. He loves being in the mountains. I think anybody who is devoted to spending that kind of time outside in wild places,

climbing, skiing, you know, where the mountains constantly humble you, allows you a pretty good perspective on all of it. And it does for me, it's really important for me. You know, it's easy to get caught up in, you know, everything that's going on around the film. But when you step back into the mountains, kind of it all kind of you know fades away a bit and and you find your center again and i think that alex enjoys it and sees it for what it is but he's always going to be a climber guys i end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that you have seen so i'm curious for both of you what

is the last great thing that you have seen and it can't be a mountain it has to be a film yeah like great thing great thing it can be a hundred years old if you want it to have two of course i was incredibly moved by the act of killing i felt like it was a revelation and an innovation in documentary filmmaking and you know i just remember sending my entire crew at South by Southwest. We were there for a different film to be like, there's, it was like the 30 mile away theater. And I was like, you guys will see that tonight. Because it's just, it was, it changed, it bended the genre.

And that's always exciting. It's exciting when nonfiction evolves because it's a different type of story being told, not just for the sake of telling something differently. Yes. That's Josh, right? Yeah. Joshua Oppenheimer.

Joshua Oppenheimer, yeah. And I recently saw, at Sundance just now, a film called Honeyland, which is about these Macedonian beekeeper and about Macedonian beekeepers, which is just the way like we edit while we film. And that's a really powerful tool to understand the story you're trying to tell and to be able to lean into what is most interesting or what moves you the most. And watching that film, it's like an old school doc, like it's entirely verite, which is the type of film I love but there is a theatrical or like very deliberate feeling to that film that it could play like a fiction film and so I really enjoyed it and I think it also speaks to this moment in conservation which is critical like we need bees like we really need bees and you see it's just like this very moving story about how one set of bees kills the other set of bees and though you know and this old lady is just doing what she does in the you know in 2018 um without access to electricity jimmy you got one i mean there's so many films uh

that i love i guess i'm a big fan of damien Chazelle. For some reason, Whiplash really, really got me. I loved that film. A film about a person pushing themselves to their limit. I wonder what you responded to. Maybe that's what it was. But I love that I connect with films like that where they come from totally unlikely places yet I think it shows the power of that these universal themes that you know it doesn't necessarily matter what the pursuit or the activity is it is the intention behind it and the drive and the ambition and

and I thought that you know similarly you similarly, you know, first man, um, another film about someone who pushes the edges of the impossible. Um, and then I think probably the last movie I saw was green book, which I, you know, I was really moved by and loved. Jamie Chai. Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. Thank you for having us.

Thank you again to Jimmy Chin, Chai Vasarely, Amanda Dobbins. Tune in tomorrow for a special Top 5s episode of The Big Picture. We're going to be talking about the Top 5 Steven Soderbergh movies because Soderbergh's got a new movie on Netflix. See you then.