The Big Picture - The Movie Business Freak-Out Mailbag and ‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery,’ With Rian Johnson!

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

Sean and Amanda begin the show by honoring the towering career of Rob Reiner following his devastating passing (1:22). Then, they open up the mailbag and answer your questions about the general panic and angst about the future of the movie business (7:48). Next, they cover Rian Johnson’s new murder mystery sequel, ‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery,’ starring Josh O’Connor and Daniel Craig (1:10:14). Finally, Johnson joins the show to discuss why he gravitates toward murder mysteries as a storyteller, how his personal relationship with religion and faith has evolved over time, and why he was blown away by O’Connor’s performance (1:24:58). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Rian Johnson Producer: Jack Sanders Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Davins. And this is the big picture of a conversation show about a priest, a detective, and a congregation who walk into a church. Today we will talk about Wake Up Dead Man, the third Knives Out mystery from Ryan Johnson, which is now available on Netflix. Speaking of Netflix, the recent news about its impending act. position of Warner Brothers has kicked up a lot of anxiety and dread for listeners of this show, so I thought we would open up the mailbag one more time in 2025, sort through our feelings, your feelings.

Thank you, as always, for such great questions from the listeners. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Ryan Johnson to talk about Wake Up Dead Man, his journey with the Benoit Blanc films, our experiences as people of lapsed faith and a whole lot more. Ryan is a class act, super smart, always a great guest. Stick around for that. But first, we'll take a quick break. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last-minute scramble to make it all come together?

From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast-free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. Okay, we're back. Yeah. And unfortunately, we are back with just about the worst news you could possibly imagine. something absolutely awful happened in the world of movies in Los Angeles, Hollywood, life itself,

which is that Rob Reiner, beloved filmmaker, actor, philanthropist, activist, was tragically murdered along with his wife on Sunday night in their home in Brentwood. And I don't want to speak too much about the sort of details of this story, but I do want to honor his life and work because I think for us and for this show, he represents something tremendously meaningful. I would say he is an incredible meaning point of our formative taste and interest in movies and we can talk about some of those movies here together but, you know, your reaction to the news from Sunday night. It is shocking and incredibly sad and I don't think there's much we can add to the news of it

except to give their families some privacy. But yeah, a couple years ago, maybe during the pandemic we had another mailbag episode and we were asked about what directors can and you would take to a desert island. And I said, like, not really joking, Rob Reiner, because he had a run from the 80s through the mid-90s. You've left one crucial film off of this list.

Well, it was because there was something in between, but you're referring, of course, to the American president in 1995, that, as you said, were formative in shaping, certainly my movie tastes, but also, I think, an idea of Hollywood. Just a little different than, like, cinema, you know, but these are the, this is the classic studio fair, often adaptations of, you know, beloved novels or plays that were staged. I don't know if they were beloved.

And starring movie stars and screenwriters, like, you know, early in what would be, like, vaunted careers that we, like, cherish and watched a thousand times. And to me are what, like, Hollywood American studio movies of our childhood and like really kind of like a second classic age of like, again, Hollywood, which is different than, you know, recreating like artistic cinema. But there is real art in making movies that are so well made and emotionally connected to the audience and memorable that, you know, everybody had a Rob Reiner film clip that they were posting last night. Yeah, I think he, forget about the high-minded for a second. I think his art and his movies represent the pinnacle of creativity that makes people happy. Yeah. You know, that there's something about the experience of seeing the Princess Bride for the first time as a kid or seeing a few good men at 12 years old and feeling that electrifying sense of importance.

Yeah. Like, I'm watching something adult here. Sure, yeah. I'm being let into the big kid room. Yes, exactly. I mean, obviously, when Harry met Sally and the way that that movie almost in real time reinvents a genre for a new generation, spinal tap, changing comedy forever, genuinely. True. I revisited this is Spinal Tap last night after the news, because that's the only thing I can think to do when something terrible like this happens.

And, you know, the first person that you see in this is Spinal Tap is Rob Reiner. And he's introducing the premise of his movie as this kind of fake director who was going off to document this fake band. And he, it's just a very warm feeling. He always had a kind of like evuncular softness going all the way back to when he was not so evuncular as meathead on all in the family. It comes from this lineage of a Hollywood family, his father Carl, also a beloved first television actor and then comedy film director. They're twinned in so many ways. And, you know, that stretch of time between 1984 through, you know, if you include the American president in roughly 1996. is probably the ideal for American studio filmmaking.

It is the pretty, and if you were a young person at this time as we were, when we say formative, we mean it literally shaped our taste to discover the best, you know, pop fantasy movie of its era, the best Stephen King adaptation of its era in misery, maybe the second best to some people's Stephen King adaptation and Stand By Me, you know, a coming of age film. Also, the most important soundtrack to me growing up, of all time. 100%.

Yeah. You know, capping all that huge runoff with a few good men, which for us is like a talisman. It's like it's like a representation of kind of where our taste meet. And he was also like a statesman of Hollywood. And obviously when Harry Met Sally is like the big breakthrough for Nora Ephron in screenwriting. But then a few years later, she writes in direct sleepless in Seattle. And Rob Reiner is there, like in a supporting role just because he is, he was a person who was supporting other careers. you know, he also did, like, co-found Castle Rock, which all the movies that he didn't actually

direct, but that we love from this period of time, come from Castle Rock in the mid-90s. Yes. So. It was an imprimatur of something grown up and straight ahead and entertaining and cool, you know. And he also had a big hand. I think that company had a big hand in helping Shepard younger filmmakers in that period in the early 90s, you know, just to shortlist of films that he participated in with Castle. Rock, the Shoshank Redemption, before sunrise and before sunset, Lone Star, Zero Effect,

the last days of disco. And also in that period, of course, he plays a huge role in getting Seinfeld Greenlit and onto NBC. And, you know, that's maybe the smartest decision in TV history. So his career is huge. He's obviously been a, he was a very outspoken Democrat and very vocal about politics and especially in the last 20 years or so. And just kind of had a a beloved reputation. You know, everybody really loved him. I saw, you know, he made a film with James Woods, a ghost of Mississippi in the mid-90s.

And James Woods could not be further away on the aisle in terms of political affiliation. And he was just like, I just love this person and I'll miss this person deeply. Yeah. And this is really fucking tragic and messed up. Yeah, it's awful. And I really hope people honor him by watching

and appreciating his movies this weekend forever. Yes. Yes. Okay, let's open the mailback. I'm going to read these mailbag questions, okay? Great. Are you excited? You don't want to trade? Go back and forth? Yeah, let's do that. Listen, I have a movie phone voice, too.

Yeah, you read all the questions about physical media. I see, I'm going more for like, you know, SAG Awards, which has been rebranded as the actor awards, like intro text. You know, like so-and-so made their debut at the age of 12 on the soap opera Days of Our Lives. That's good. You've got a little bit of, like, mid-December rasp, too. So there's, like, some depth there. You know, you're getting closer and closer to Rachel Senate. Okay, I'll read the first one.

Okay. Allison writes, given the generally negative response to Netflix, quote, winning the Warner Brothers bidding war, do you think it could impact the Oscars? Might Academy members vote for non-netflix films as a way of showing their displeasure? I don't think so both, like, broadly and also in the literal reality. of what's going on in this Oscar race

where it's like, I don't think Frankenstein was like, you know, closing in on number one until this sale came through. I just, I don't think, they probably have three Best Picture nominees.

And I don't think any of them will already win Best Picture. Now, below the line, you know, K-pop Demon Hunters is really big in the animated film category. But, you know, the alternative is, Zootopia, too, which was produced by Disney, which just gave a billion dollars to

open, you know, to SORA, to open AI. Yeah. So, you know, if we're out here punishing based on industry issues, I, I, I, there are no good choices. I think that's well put. And that's the other thing. It's like, you know, Netflix, quote unquote, is winning right now, but this is going to be like a very long, um, protracted battle. And I do still think whether this is wise, are not within the industry, there are people who feel relief that it's Netflix rather than Paramount. No doubt. Certainly just because of the amount of jobs that will be lost if Paramount does succeed in its quasi-hostile bid as, you know, as the town is now putting it. So, and I'll trust their reporting because I'm not, I don't yet have my MBA, but, you know, finals are coming up.

2026, you know, I'm going to the Kim Kardashian law school, but for my business. degree. So I think that people are so relieved that they maybe aren't in like a immediately punishing Netflix mode. Also at some point, you know, Netflix has jobs and money for these people and many other studios do not. Also, I mean, the thing is, is the question is, is anyone mad enough at Warner Brothers to not vote for one battle after another? Because, you know, Warner Brothers made some mistakes. And it's not really the people who make these films who made the mistakes. Definitively not the people who made the films.

That's true. They had no influence whatsoever on the sale. I guess that's like, how much do you credit David Zazlaw for being like, sure. I mean, he ultimately was responsible for allowing that film to be greenlit. Yeah. It just, it doesn't work this way. Right. Like, there will be probably maybe a handful of people who think about this and they say,

I really want to stick it to this company or that company. But when it comes to voting for awards, people vote for their friends. They vote for movies that they love. They vote for what they think would be cool to see up there. They don't vote strategically, economically, politically, in this way overtly. You know, and like you said, Netflix employs a lot of the people that vote for the Academy Awards. Like, to me, it's not that cut and dried. If this were an award about who should be in control of the future of Hollywood, people would think differently about how to

cast that ballot. But that's not what this is. This is just about what movies do you think are the best ones. So I don't really see it affecting it. Or who, like, who do you like hanging out with? Yeah, that's a factor too. That is a factor. I think that, you know, there's a capriciousness to a lot of awards voting for these reasons that they're made by humans. They're not made by political organizations. So I would not expect this. I don't think. Anything else? I mean, you know, it feels like kind of a... It's bad vibes. Bad vibes in town. It is bad.

You know, it's been a terrible year in Los Angeles. Yeah. It's really a hard year. And it's been a really hard year for people who work in Hollywood. And let's just celebrate one battle after another, you know, while fighting one battle after another. Okay, what's the next question? This comes from Emily.

I'm traveling to see family for Christmas and want to see Marty Supreme as soon as I possibly can. My question is, will I be mortified or uncomfortable beyond recovery if I see this film? with my dad. Emily, incredible question. I've been here. Like, not with Marty Supreme, but with many other films, I see you. I've only seen this film once. So you've seen it more recently. So you can... Me and my dad went together. You can probably remember, like, the most mortifying movies. But it's, like, what's comfortable and what's not comfortable with your dad. You know, I can't remember any sex scenes that are so explicit that you would want to, like, like, you know, fall under the table. Yes.

I can't remember anything akin to sitting next to my mother in Jerry McGuire when I was 12, which was, I'll never get over that. Yes. So in that sense, it's fine. And may God bless Kelly Preston. Rest in peace, truly. There's some gross things. It's stressful? The answer is no.

I think that that anxiety that people talk about that Saffty, Josh Saffty can generate in his movie making, is very present. and if that made you unpresident. I actually think it's, like, less illicit than the Julia Fox stuff in Uncuchat Jem's, you know? It does have, it has a real, like, sexuality and sensuality, Marty Supreme. There's a lot of violence and kind of mania in the movie, but I don't know. It actually, because it's a period piece and because it's a sports movie, it's kind of a good movie to go see with your parents, right? It feels like kind of a great Christmas release. I think so.

I was trying to guess if my. father would like it. My dad, who has incredible movie takes, around the Christmas season and all year long, actually. And there is a certain, I remember my dad didn't like Francis Haugh, which is a very different type of movie, except for that it is about a young person being an idiot, you know? And so if your dad doesn't have patience for young people being idiots. Did you see that Timmy has been quoting my tweet? No. Like routinely now. In two different interviews, you keep saying that this is a movie about being an idiot in your 20s, which is what I said about the movie. And it is, I mean, it is definitely a true thing about the film, but somebody must have read him that tweet. I hope so. Can that person

also read him my mailing address for a jacket? Size small and medium blue. No, I haven't gotten one yet. Like three, three Kardashian-Generes have them. And that was when I knew that I was not going to get one, but I'm still, if anyone, if I will give out my address, I would love a jacket. Okay. More Marty Supreme coming to this show in eight days. Anyway, I think it'll be fun. Merry Christmas, Emily. Okay. Next question. And Emily's dad. You think he's a listener?

Well, she can tell him. How old do you think Emily is and how old do you, like, do you think, is, is it possible Emily's dad is 97? Um, I wouldn't go to, I wouldn't take a 97-year-old. Is it possible that Emily's dad is our age, which is worse. Dude. Okay, going forward, all mailbag question writers, please include your age. Thank you.

Uh, all right. Jane asks, I'm seeing a lot of people. mad about the athlete mentality that Timothy Shalame has had in interviews lately where he talks about how he has been giving great performances lately. Personally, I think it's cool, but I'm wondering what your opinion is on this and if it will hurt or help his Oscar chances.

What do you think? I also think it's rad. He started this last year. Was it the SAG Awards? It was. It was. I'm an actor awards. I know you're not supposed to say this, but I'm in pursuit of greatness. Yeah. And he listed

some people and it was rad. And it was cool. And it maybe played a little bit better because it was the first time and because he was not considered the favorite at that point. And he did not win the offer. And he did not win the offer. So you were just kind of like, oh, look at this guy shooting his shot. I would see that the tenor of this campaign has been like a little different and very much in keeping with the character of Marty Supreme.

And also. It's kind of cosplaying as the hero of his new. movie right now. Sort of. And he is also like, in addition to being, I guess it's athlete mentality, but he's just really a student of the internet. Like, Timmy is like, is a premiere poster. Yeah.

And talk your shit. Yes. And he has grown up watching, like, you know, everything from like Kanye Press tours to all of the athlete interviews. Like, this is a playbook that is recognizable, that has imprinted on him. New York, man. He's from New York. We like it. I assume that there will be older people who are irritated by it. But I'm not sure that they were going to vote for the Marty Supreme performance anyway.

I'm not sure. I mean, Joanne and I and you spoke about this last Friday. And we, you know, she was saying she doesn't think he wants to win. I just think he's in, he's promoting the movie. And I think he's trying to appeal to young people. Because this is, even though it's a period piece, it's really a movie for young people. Like it's really fast pace. It's about a 20-something guy trying to achieve greatness and realizing kind of the toll and the cost of that. And it's just very relatable if you are anywhere from 15 to 50, I would say. So I think he's mostly worried about that and not as worried about the Oscar stuff. And we'll see if he kind of shifts the tack. Because he's going to be nominated, obviously. I do think older people obviously find this a little bit off-putting. But I also think you're right that he has located something very specific about his generation. And when he gave the Sack speech, he literally invoked Michael Phelps and Michael Jordan.

You know, he is, he wants to be a, he just went on a professional wrestler's podcast. He went on college game day. I mean, the athlete mentality thing. Oh my God, I loved the game day. That was great. And what Jane is identifying is true that he is pursuing this in a different way. He's acting more like maybe the way Torel Owens would talk as a wide receiver than the way you would expect someone like Daniel Day Lewis, another name he invoked would talk during a press campaign. But, I mean, who cares?

Like, if the movies are good, the movies are good. I'm enjoying the show, you know? Like, I really, it's good for us. Yeah, it's great. But also, like, he's, he's speaking of my demo, too, and I appreciate the performance, and it's funny. Jacket buyers. I want a jacket, you know? So once again, just let Timmy know, everybody.

Okay. What's the next one? What do you think the performance of the 2026 film slate, which is full of should-be blockbusters, will mean for the health of the theatrical business come this time next year? Do you think there will be significantly more panic than there is now if some of these titles don't perform the way they're expected to? Well, I think there will be panic. I don't think everyone's going to be like, yeah, we did it, you know? It's partly about what it means for these movies to succeed.

So, like, I've listed a bunch of them here for us. We're going to do the most anticipated movies of the year. First thing we get back in January. But I wouldn't say most of these movies are going to end up on that list, so I don't have a problem listing them. It's a huge year for Disney next year. Disney has several movies that, I don't know if need is the right word. But should perform, including a new toy story movie, live action Molyna, the first new Star Wars movie in seven years, which is the Mandalorian and Grogu.

They've got Devil Wars Prada 2. They've got, what else? They've got Avengers Doomsday at the end of the year. So like that slate of movies, in a different time, those could all be billion-dollar movies except for Devil Wars Prada 2, you know? Yeah. For Universal, they have a new minions movie. They have the, they have, uh, Mega minions, wow.

Mega minions, yeah. Can't wait. What other universal movies are on this list? Is that it? I mean, you know, I'm listing basically franchise films. There's like 12 franchise films that are expected to make a lot of money. Included among them is like the Super Mario Galaxy movie. That's Universal.

Shrek 5, um, which I know you're pumped for. Jumanji 3. That's a Sony movie. Then you've got Dune Messiah, which is Warner. You've got the Hunger Games film That's Lionsgate So all those movies Like kind of have to do well

Yeah And if they don't do well Then everyone's gonna start crying Everyone's gonna freak out Spider-Man movie You know, that's Sony And then there's like four other films That are really interesting

For what we want to talk about So that's a great ratio It's not good It's 12 to 4 The four films are The Odyssey The new Chris Nolan movie. Disclosure, the new Stevens Billboard movie that we talked about last week.

Right. Emerald Fennell's Wuthering Heights. We're going to have an incredible time. I look forward to it. God, that Standy has been up in the movie theaters for months. And then Project Hail Mary, the Ryan Gosling space drama adaptation. So excited. So I cite those four films because they are a little bit closer to, I think, what kind of were hoping things like eventually get dragged to, even if the business is.

dying and Warner Brothers is going to Netflix, it's like, how do we preserve this? How do we preserve original films or adaptations of novels that are for not 13-year-olds that have a lot of star power made from at least interesting filmmakers, filmmakers

with interesting track records? And I think there's a much better chance that the Odyssey is a huge hit than I don't know, even something like Toy Story 5, which historically has been bulletproof. But like, can we guarantee that everyone probably can guarantee it.

But the Odyssey is like a foolproof hit. Which is an incredible thing to say about like a contemporary adaptation, not a contemporary, like a contemporary to the time written adaptation of Homer's epic poem. Do you think we should do like a Greek and Roman myth's adaptation episode? Yeah, that would be fun. Okay, because you have a lot of grounding in that work. Well, you know, in some ways, the everything, all of Western storytelling is grounded on those. Yes.

Hamnet would be eligible because they do the Orpheus and you, you know. That's true. That's, you want to spend more time talking about Hamlet in that episode. And that was one of my favorite. Actually, when he tells the story, it's nice. But then you have to look at the tree again. Okay. Of all of these franchise movies.

Hamnet is the new The Giving Tree. Incredible take by me! Is it? Out of all these franchise movies, is there one that you're really looking forward to? Besides Devil Wars Prada, too. Well, I'll take Knox to see Minions 3. So I think that'll be funny.

Yeah, Mega Minions. Listen, I've liked Dune 1 and 2. Yeah, Dune Messiah. That's the one. Will it be called Dune Messiah? Or Dune 3, D-U-N-3? That would be good. I mean, look, I'm going to probably

half freak out about whatever happens, right? it's not like next year's not going to be like everything's fixed yeah like like it's not we didn't invite you know we didn't invent like a time machine it's not it's not going to be great again and i think that we typically receive all of this industry news with uh hand rinking and i'm at collectively speak for yourself you know i feel that i've been quite measured in 2025 yeah you've been great thank you uh e j writes in all isn't it my turn no it's your turn you're right okay sorry I was just excited to answer this. Okay, well, you'll be able to.

E.J. writes, in all the Ellison drama of this year, I keep thinking about where Megan Ellison is and the heater that Anna Perna was on about a decade ago. Obviously, we don't know the family dynamics, and there was a Hollywood reporter story last year about the rough patch that she hit. But do you think there's a world where she takes a role at Paramount and that someone with good taste over there could actually be an unexpected outcome of this? You know, E.J., that's what we call thinking positively and or delusionally. I mean, I don't know any of the Ellison's either. I don't think I've even met. Like, I've never been in a room with Megan Ellison.

I haven't either. I know a lot of people that worked in at Perna. Sure, yeah. I know some as well. And definitely has great taste. The vibes that I'm getting from the reporting are that Succession was not about the Murdox. It's actually about this family. And so she doesn't want, I don't know.

I don't think there's love lost. I don't, if she were going to be involved. Yes, but she won succession. No, she didn't. Her lame husband did. Well, but yeah, but then they, you know. Yeah, I guess so. If anyone won, she won from that family.

Okay. So then let's game it out. So you think Larry's just waiting and he's letting, no, I don't. I don't. I think that if she were going to be involved, if they had that kind of relationship where they valued her input or her time at Annapurna, like that she would already be in the mix. Yeah, Annapurna was a comet. And I genuinely credit that this period of movies with getting me to where I am with covering movies because I was working at Grantland basically right when this movie company launched and she was funding exactly what I wanted.

Like let's just go quickly through the list of movies that she made in that time. Lawless was her first movie, which is ultimately not a super successful Tom Hardy period Western film, but it's a good swing. And then she goes on this run of the master killing them softly, zero dark 30, spring breakers, the grand master, her, American Hustle, Foxcatcher. Then she makes, kind of loses her way a little bit. Yeah. Joy. I mean, American Hustle and Foxcatcher are kind of like, we're trying this. We're still trying.

They represent the right instincts. American Hustle is a Best Picture nominee. She's the only woman who's been nominated for Best Picture twice in the same category in the best picture. in the best picture category for her and American Hustle. I mean, that period of time, that three or four year period was pretty crazy in terms of what she accomplished.

And, you know, she made some good movie. Everybody wants some 20th century women, you know, phantom thread. Like, she helped participate and fund all these movies. Beale Street could talk. Like, she, it was a net positive. It was a very, clearly a very chaotic company and the way it was run was like a lot of,

like, meant to be rule breaking and empower otors and let artists make, you know, execute their visions in the way that they want to. And that was not. sound as an economic strategy. But I agree with you, I don't get the impression that Larry Ellison is kind of like quietly lining her up behind David Ellison and she will emerge and say, I am the new Queen Hollywood.

That's not really going to happen. Yeah. It would be nice if she had a division within Paramount just because we know that she's really into like, you know, Spike Jones movies and, uh, same. Richard Linklater movies and, you know, uh, so I don't know, it's, it's wishful thinking. We could be wrong, but. could be wrong. Okay. What's next? Hmm. From DJ.

Letterbox has just started their own video rental store on the app for lesser known smaller released films. I was wondering what you guys think of that idea. That's so nice to include me. And if you have seen any of the films they have on there so far, what would you recommend? I'm so glad this was asked because

I couldn't find an organic way to talk about this, but this is something that launched last week on Letterbox that have turned themselves into what they're calling a video store, but is really more of a streaming service. And, And the great thing about what they're doing is that most of the films that they're identifying are films with no distribution. So I've watched one movie on the app so far. It's called It Ends.

It premiered at the South by Southwest Film Festival. It's kind of an existential, very grounded sci-fi drama about four friends in a car who are on a road trip. Or who are actually just going out to get some food and they start driving and they find themselves on an endless road. And the road only runs in two directions and all they can do is drive. If they get out of the car, crazy things start to happen. really interesting, promising feature debut kind of a film. This is like a net positive.

This is a movie that otherwise you would just not be able to see because who knows if anybody would ever buy this movie? There are a handful of other movies that are like this. They also are going to clearly kind of refresh and redistribute some older films, probably more foreign language films, but I think this is fantastic. And there was a question in here originally,

at least about kind of like the future of independent cinema. Mm-hmm. I don't know if it's necessarily rosy, but this is like a nice opportunity for filmmakers who are trying to get their films more widely seen. In terms of the ease of use on the platform, like I think they're still working it out, but I thought it was relatively clean.

Like, you can just do it on your laptop if you just open up letterbox. It's very easy to just input your pay info, and it'll start streaming for you, I think used via Vimeo technology. But if you put letterbox on your set-top box, like on your Roku or on your Apple TV, it works really well.

And it was just like renting a movie from any other streaming video rental store. So I thought this was great. I liked It Ends. I know Chris, like, CR like It Ends. He watched it this weekend, too. And yeah, I mean... Oh, yeah, the rare.

He both shared the letterbox thing. And then, like, he wrote a comment. Did he write a comment? Yeah, which, like, Chris never does on Instagram. So that caught my attention. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a very cool film that otherwise wouldn't get to be seen. So I love it.

I mean, if they start distributing Avengers Doomsday, I don't think that's great. I don't think that's really useful But as everyone knows I think Letterbox is doing great things For film fandom So it's a nice that it can be a way station for that And I think making films available to people

Is like the one upside Of the streaming age And this is like a cool way to capitalize on that It's not Avengers Doom Day It's things that otherwise would not be seen And making it easier for a wider group of people I mean it's all like it's all we have It's all we can do with this stuff

So good on them Yeah it's a droplet in the ocean, but it's a tasty droplet. All right, I'm going to read this one, this is fun for you. Aiden writes, it's a recurring point on the show that the Oscars telecast sucks and loses viewers because of its poor quality

and general bloat. I'm not sure about that. I agree with the ideas you bring up around potential improvements, fewer live, song performances, actual funny, famous people for award presentations, more clips, etc. I'm curious why you think the Oscars producers don't follow that advice and ram their heads into the wall with

the same shit year after year. Who's making these decisions? Why? I think every question should just end with why. Take it away. Okay, so why the Oscar producers don't follow our advice? Because they don't know who we are. That's correct.

Well, yes. The Academy knows who we are. The producers of the show do not give a talk. Well, I was going to say, if any of the producers do know who we are, they hate us. So, with the exception of Steven Soderberg, who was an Oscar producer one year, and has spoken to you several times, so he knows who you are, and I don't think he hates you.

As far as I can tell, Stephen and I are on good terms, and I, of course, believe he is an American hero. As do I. I... I quibble a little bit with the characterization and the question. Because, one,

we were pretty positive about the last telecast. And one of the reasons why is, even if they weren't distinctly listening to us, I did feel that the shift of Conan O'Brien gave the show a new energy. Now Conan O'Brien is coming back as the host this year, so maybe we won't have that kind of first-time, first-date excitement around the way that he presented on the show.

But I thought last year's show was pretty good. What we liked about it, he did some bits in the Billy Crystal 90s fame. I mean, we like everyone else are just trying to get the Oscars back to the Oscars of our use because that's what people do is you just try to recreate things. from your childhood when they were, quote, unquote, better,

though they really weren't because there are plenty of Oscars telecasts from the 80s and 90s available on YouTube, and you will not believe what those people got up to. But also in the 80s and 90s, they were more watched. So some of it is, I agree with you, like, it's not losing viewers because it's bad. It's losing viewers because of YouTube and TikTok. Yeah, model culture is gone. Nobody watches TV. Live TV ratings, except for the NFL.

fell, just kind of art where they are. You and I have different opinions about what makes a good telecast. We do. You really like more clips. I get tired of montages after a while. Do you like the live, the musical performances? I mean, I think in some occasions, I thought it was wise to open with Ariana and Cynthia Rivo last year.

That was smart. That was a way to kick off. I don't love that movie, as you know, but that was a smart way to draw in crowds and they're great performers. And so that made sense. And, you know, the Bradley Cooper, Lady Gaga, like, almost make-out. Like, sometimes those are moments. Yeah, I'm just Ken from by Ryan Gosling.

That was a great moment. Like, you know, there are really, there can be really good examples of live performances. The thing that you don't want is that feeling of perfunctory. Like, all five of the nominees have to perform today, even though three of the five nominees are not songs you've ever heard in your entire life. That doesn't really, that hurts the show, in my opinion. What we want are, like, the memorable moments. And not just because we know that then they'll go viral on.

the internet and that will make people care about movies but because that's what makes a good TV show. We want them to, we want the broadcast to be good and not bad. We have some understanding of what makes that, which is people who are experienced at standing in front of a microphone being engaging, either hosting or presenting awards. A little more thought put into what's going to be a dead moment versus like what people will be excited to see, which is both the live song performances or the 45th montage about, I don't know, flying in movies or whatever. And I say that as someone who spends a lot of time watching montages of flying movies. I just love when you're getting a plane and there's a camera on the plane.

And they're showing you the world from the vantage of the plane. We love it too in my home. And we watch it a lot. It's fucking awesome. The Great Waldo Pepper, Mission Impossible, the Final Reckoning. Twilight Zone the movie. And you're like, I just want to know who's going to win Best Picture. And then they also won't take our fun advice

Like they won't reveal the you know The voting counts which I understand why But that would be cool Yeah but they're cowards Right they I still think the countdown Where one is eliminated Every 30 minutes My best idea of all time

It's really good It's literally my best idea of all time Yeah I think the people making these decisions Are people who are trying to wrap their heads Around a new reality of television watching A period in which the Academy Awards were frequently the second or third most watched show in America in any given year behind the Super Bowl.

And that's just, you know, it'll still be close, but that number is halved, if not a third in 10 years time. That's fine. It's not, you know, we spent years. I spent years trying to problem solve this, trying to not freak out about the best way to nominate the right movies to get attention on the show. It's just different now. It goes along with every other thing that we've been talking about over the last 18 months with the whole movie business in general. it's actually just better now, fully, in my opinion, to just celebrate movies. That that should be the entire purpose of the show.

Movies, movie culture, you know, that idea that many people have shared over the years, which is like, this should be the biggest showcase for movie trailers that is pot. It should be like the Avengers Doomsday trailer is premiering in the second hour of the Oscars telecast. Like on air or during the, you want them to. No, no, during the commercial. During the commercials. I was going to say, let's not. But they should treat it like the Super Bowl where it's like that, that.

The ad rate for that show will matter more, and the ratings will go up if you give people more about movies in this time. Like, lean deeply into the people who actually care about this stuff. You know, whether or not they'll do that, that's over our heads. Okay, what's the next question? This is from Georgia. My question for the mailbag, which actor, actress, or director are you buying stock for in 2026? Whose stock are you selling? I made a list of some filmmakers.

Okay. These are early, early buys. You took mine. You can have the second one. Yeah. Three horror movie directors that I'm going to put on people's radars. I haven't seen their films, but I'm very intrigued. Kane Parsons, I actually spoke about this with Bill Simmons and Van Leith on Bill's show,

but he made a movie called The Backrooms. He is in his early 20s. He was a YouTube kind of creepy pasta video maker, and he made a real film with a real cast. you know, adult actors, like well-known stars. And I've heard the movie's really good. So I'm excited about that. It's an A-24 movie. Curry Barker debuted his movie Obsession at Toronto,

and it got acquired by Focus. It's coming out this spring. I've also heard that movie is really good. I haven't seen it. And then Sebastian Vanichek is making the new Evil Dead movie called Evil Dead Burn. He made a movie that we did talk about on the show called Infested a couple of years ago, a spider horror movie.

It is also really good. For the horror fans on this show, three names to watch, three younger filmmakers. Okay. Yours is a little bit less under the radar. Well, it's burgeoning. Charlie X-CX. Yeah. It's not under the radar in the music, but in the film space.

You know. You're buying stock. Yes. The Weathering Heights soundtrack, The Moment. Her letterbox. Also, her substack, which is a little bit about films, but, you know, Charlie is blogging. and... Yeah, what'd you think of that?

I thought it was great. She's very talented. I'm a huge fan. Should we do a check-in on her letterbox? Yeah. What has she been watching? Where did we leave off? I think you read all of November

because it was... That was the Wicked for Good episode. I don't think I got through the entire month. Okay. You want to just spend some time on December? Yeah. Okay, Charlie X-CX letterbox check-in. December 1st, Utopia 2.

She left a heart. December 6th, 5-day gap. Got to bump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers, Charlie. The first film she watched was Last Days, which is Gus Van Zanz's sort of shaded portrait of the last days of Kurt Cobain's life, starring Michael Pitt.

No heart, no rating. Okay. December 6th, she watched another film. Yes. The weekend away. A film I've not seen. Stars Leighton Meester. Great.

Here, I'm going to read you the logline of the film. When her best friend vanishes during a girl's trip to Croatia, Beth races to figure out what happened, but each clue yields another unsettling deception. Ooh. I would watch that. Is it filmed in Croatia? Unclear.

Okay. Because that would make a difference. December 7th, she left a review of the film that she watched. The film is before sunrise. Okay. Here's the review. OMG, this chemistry.

Okay. This feels like a first time watch for her. Yeah, I was going to say, is this the first time? Well, welcome, Charlie. Five stars. Great. December 10th.

Yes. Pillion, the movie I love. I know. Charlie Lightens, BDSM, gay, rom-com drama, starring Alexander Scars Guard, and Harry Melling. Actually, the movie that our guest talked a bit about later in this episode. December 11th, The Voice of Hindra Jop, which was at the Venice Film Festival, which is an incredibly tragic and sad movie, five stars, and a heart.

December 13th, wake up Dead Man. Okay. Uh, no notes. December 13th, Predator Badlands. Sick. We like to see that. Okay. Yeah.

I'm not seeing a heart or five stars. Okay. Or I love that episode with Sean and CR. I'm not seeing that here anywhere. It's expensive to have opinions. Okay. Charlie knows that. She does.

December 14th, Year of the Fox. Another film I haven't seen and haven't heard of. 2023, a 17-year-old Ivy who was adopted as an infant into a wealthy and notable Aspen family is navigating the fallout of her parents' bitter. divorce. Aspen, Colorado? I can't say. Can you be a notable Aspen family? Is anyone living in Aspen long enough?

You know, are there enough year-long residents of Aspen to be notable? I simply don't know the answer to that. Okay, I don't either. December 14th. Mountain culture, not for me. Just yesterday. Yes. Charlie X-EX watched Park Chan-Wooks no other choice. Five stars? Heart. Oh, okay. Just a heart. Just a heart.

Okay. Anyway, this has been Charlie X-C-X watches movies, and we talk about them. Okay. Back to people we're shouting out. So Christopher Borgly is the director of the drama. Yeah. We saw a teaser for the drama. The new film starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson about a couple who everything is perfect.

They're cool. They have hit, you know, stylish clothing. They're beautiful. They live in a cool New York apartment. And then something's wrong. What's wrong? We don't know what's wrong. I don't want to find out.

There's a big twist. Don't spoil the twist. I won't. Um, I, this, this movie is in the materialist slot from last year for A-24. Right. Well, we had a nice time. And everyone was very normal about it. One of the best, easily one of my favorite episodes of the year that we've done.

And a fun movie-going experience for a movie that I think is deeply flawed. Still thinking about the Shrek meme where he just sinks down in the cake. That's so good. That was good. That was good. Um, can we talk about Ann Hathaway? Yeah. It's her time. This is, I'm nervous.

Well, this is risky. She's got six films this year. And it's not, she doesn't schedule them. Nope, it's not her fault. You know, it's not her fault. But exposure for anyone at this level is tough to maintain, as we're seeing from Timothy Shalamey right now, and that's just one big film. Individually in different ways, I have interest in all six films.

The films that she's going to be in, the Odyssey. Yes. in which she plays what's what's what's uh what's odysseus wife's name penelope thank you um the devil wears prodded too do you remember her character's name in that annie annie sacks but miranda calls her andrea is that actually her name or does she invent that for her uh i don't actually know because the first time she says andrea and she says andy everybody calls me andy but then how do you feel like andy for a girl it's cute a n d i or a and d one I have always...

I've always spelled it in my head, A&D-I-E, like Andy McDowell, but I guess I haven't seen it written out. They don't show her bylines. What about A-Y-N-Y-D-Y. That seems complicated. Next, Verity, which is the forthcoming Colleen Hoover Adaptation with Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson. You will not see this without me. Like we will, you will not. I will not go alone.

Okay. This is like a major Kim Crawford, right? And I think we'll have an incredible time. I want to see this movie inside of a bar. That's the only way I think I'll be able to enjoy it. Then David Lowry's Mother Mary, long-awaited two-hander, apparently, that the streets have been waiting for. We got a trailer for that movie. Also, speaking of Charlie X, X, X, X, wrote the songs for Mother Mary.

One more Charlie thing. Flower Vale Street, David Robert Mitchell's follow-up to Under the Silver Lake, which has been long delayed from Warner Brothers. I was going to say. Very excited about it, but I have some concerns. And then I didn't realize this, but I just read last night that she's also appearing in a new film by Ron Howard called Alone at Dawn. That's just a robust year. Yeah. Are you holding your Anne Hathaway stock, selling, buying?

Holding. Holding. What about the rock making Jumanji 3? Are you selling that? We checked Jumanji out of the library, the book the other day. Or, you know, I tried to, I was curious whether it would take, didn't take. Right. Just not with your child.

Yeah. Okay. Not with you alone. Okay. What if I was just sitting there? It's an image. Yeah, who knows what happens after bedtime. So what else is he going to do?

It does feel like a bit of a retreat. It does. And is live action in Moana also next year? It is. Okay. So, you know, you got to do what you got to do, you know? We did, what do we have to do? 35 over 35 next year?

Is that where it is? on the cycle and pinging back and forth. Did we do 35 under 35 this year? I can't remember. So you do it every 18 months. Is that true? That's what you told me last time. Okay.

So it was, I remember that we did it for challengers, and that was April. So. I've got seven months till the 44-year-old cliff, you know, when I fall off the cliff. Oh, I can't talk about that piece. I'm sorry. Just, I have a listen. It is the thing that existed predates that piece. There's science, but it's fine.

And I have some thoughts for you. You're going to be fine. I'm going to be fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy to hear that. We're going to work on your mobility. We're going to work on your, you know, vitamins. Vitamins.

I think that you could use an infusion or two. Not like the IV drip. I'm not doing that. It's really a classic thing where if I just eat an orange, I just feel a hundred times better. I know that, Sean. You know, just a hundred times better. I am familiar enough with your diet at this point. I think I actually have.

like a very normal body. I'm just going to say that out loud. I'm a normal man with a normal body. And if I treat it as such, I'll be fine. I do. I think that we can, as you approach the 44 cliff, we can just like uptake, you know, up the care just a little bit. Here's what they don't know about me. I'm wearing a parachute. Doesn't matter. Send me off that cliff. I'll be flying gracefully. Next question. Yes. Yes. No, this is, I wanted you to ask me the next one. Can I ask this one? Yes, go ahead. Okay, I'll ask you Emma's question. You read me, you read me Jeff's. Emma asks, my question is, which movie on your 25 for 25 was hardest to pick come to an agreement on, whether that be to include it on the list or its placement on the list? Well, Francis Ha has been a

recurring source of frustration and disagreement for us. I think, I personally, you know, I still don't feel good about the Christopher Nolan pick. We went all different ways on that. And We did what we had to do, but I would have liked to come to a better resolution. I think we actually had a very friendly and warm and actually encouraging for our pod relationship experience doing the 25. Yeah. Where you put a rough draft together after we did the cut down and then I kind of tweaked it a little bit. But didn't tweak it that much, not dramatically. So that part of it was good.

I think in... And even, I mean, we haven't listened to the selection episode. but that was like kind of nerdy fun for us. It was not contentious as people might imagine it. I think that for me personally there are a couple of movies that are just not Amanda movies that undoubtedly would have been on my list. Like almost famous in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind just would have been on my list. And they're not.

They're not on the list. Yeah. So there were a couple that were like, but not a lot. Not a lot where I was like, I don't want to fight with you, but I would fight with you about it, you know? Yeah. I mean, it is also hard to fight with me. You made like a, you made a last minute offer about, and I was just like absolutely not. Like, I wasn't even going to engage with you.

You're not the coolest negotiator, I would say. I don't negotiate. Yeah. Like that's, it's, you don't negotiate it with terrorists. Yes. But you know who says that? Terrorists. I just, it was a terrible offer and I wasn't going to take it.

If you'd made a good offer, I would have said yes. Well, there are a few movies where I'm like, I can't believe that this isn't on the list. I agree. Tar is also a new movie that, you know. I tried five different times. I know. But like I would say three or four times during this year, I've texted you being like, okay, but what about Tar? Yeah.

I know. It was tough. It was tough. Yeah. It's a really tough one. Tar and almost famous are very hard for me to not, for those to not be on the list because of how much I like them. Even though I need more time with Tar is something I'll say about Tar. Okay.

I'd like to see it a couple more times. I'm wearing my Tar Blazer. I didn't even realize. And giving Tar. energy. Well. Okay. You read the next one.

Okay. Oh, boy. Given the potential acquisition and the threat to physical media, this is from Jeff, what are the Warner Library, including one's license to criteria, and 4Ks we should be asking for this Christmas?

Let me just say that. You've put a list together. Haphazardly. No, no, no, it's fine. It's just like if you're collecting 4Ks, you should have these. This should be on your list if you don't have them. Well, I generally agree with that, but I think it's worth locating for people

who maybe aren't thinking about. A lot of people have clearly started collecting in the last few years. Like, hopefully in Park because they're listening to the show. But just in general, there have been like 15 trend pieces in newspapers and magazines and websites over the last few years that like something is kicking up, obviously. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know about trend pieces. It's that you gave them an idea, but that's okay. That may be true. I think there's just like some existential dread stuff with I want to own my stuff. So this is very basic. This is like starter kit to me for the Warner Brothers and Warner licensed stuff.

Wizard of Oz. Before they put David Zazov's face in it. Yes. They do not buy the AI induced sphere version. Wizard of Oz, there's a beautiful steelbook 4K. Buy it. It's a must. It's a must. Buy it. The Bogart

Classics. They've been collected on Blu-ray. But not on 4K? Slowly over time. They're being added on 4K, Casa Blonde. is available on 4K to have and have not I believe is not Treasure of the Sierra Madre

I do not believe is on 4K yet the big sleep the Maltese Falcon is available on 4K I may have gotten a couple of those wrong but you know

Bogart made a great many movies in the 30s and 40s that are all timers but the best known ones I think because they were made by Warner Brothers and so they have been a legacy studio

that has been able to continuously promote those films are these movies two recent criterion 4Ks of Stanley Kubrick movies Barry Lyndon and Eyes Wide Shut. The Eyes Wide Shut Criterion is anybody

who's serious about owning movies should buy it today. Blade Runner, Mean Streets, all the Christopher Nolan films up to Oppenheimer and I guess not Memento, but almost all those films are Warners. The Tim Burton Batman, like we could go

on and on. There's a, you know, all the Clint Eastwood movies. Dirty Harry just had a 4K. Outlaw Josie Wales just had a 4K. Like a bunch of these movies are all of elbow now. I'm sure there's like roughly 500 more that people should hunt down, but it's worth spending some time acquiring those. It's a nice question from Jeff. Congratulations, Jeff. I hope you get what you want for Christmas. Okay. Kyle asks, referring back to Sean and Amanda's second thoughts on Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning, what is the most complete turnaround either of you had had on a movie

whether good or bad, as in you initially thought it was great or horrible, but then on a follow-up viewing determined it to be either horrible or great. I quibble with the premise of this question as well. I think that the Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning was an acceptance. We didn't come on this podcast being like, yeah. No, we didn't celebrate the movie in the episode. Yeah. I mean, we wanted to find the sequences we liked and then were disappointed.

We wanted to find what was good about it. But I wouldn't call it a total turnaround. There was an emotional process that I needed to go through to fully get my arms around how bad it is. And that's just called podcasting. I don't really totally turn around on things. This is not your style. This is not your style.

Well, I think this is a really interesting thing, right? Because I will tend to turn around on things when I've been persuaded by strong writing about something. Very rarely in conversation will I be persuaded. I also like a direct confrontation. But I vividly remember liking Birdman. seeing Birdman in movie theaters and liking it maybe not loving it

not being like this is my favorite movie of all time but being very easily persuaded by the technical wizardry that feeling of like the way that Inorritu is moving I think I was at a stage of disinterest in his work at that point because I felt like the trilogy of you know deeply intense painful Amori Sparrow's 21 grams babble

like that stretch of movies by the end of it I remember coming out of Babel and just being like hating that movie. And I liked that in Birdman, he kind of like turned it around. More comedy, a verve, a ton of actors that I really, really like in that movie. You know, great Michael Keaton, Emma Stone, Edward Norton, like a lot of great stuff about it. I didn't like the critic scene, I remember vividly with Lindsay Duncan in the bar. I remember that feeling very overwritten, but I did like the movie. And then I started reading more and more about the movie and I was really persuaded to kind of see why it is actually.

more in the lineage of the previous films that I was not as crazy about and that even in a zippy comedy about an existentialist movie star superhero there's just a kind of like depressive self-satisfaction in a lot of his work that I don't like but that's the one that jumped out to me the most

in terms of like now when I look at Birdman I feel a lot of disinterest but it happens from time to time I think like on this show we often get held accountable for things that we say in the moment Like the one I think of most is like, we both had a pretty, a very positive conversation about Green Book. Right. We were charmed by it.

Yes. Yeah. And then everything that came out about the way that movie was written and produced was made clear. And I was like, oh, okay. So I have some questions and concerns about this. And also the scale of it going to winning best picture, which I don't think in the context of our first conversation, we were like, this movie should win best picture. Right. So that kind of shatters your perception of something a bit, too.

I mean, we were maybe a little bit nervous about it. Like, I remember saying, like, this was a crowd pleaser, you know? And this was, this made a lot of people feel good. So, but no, I don't think that we thought it should win over Roma. I think that my appreciation or understanding of movies does change over time and that I can see. And it's usually with, you know, my age and experience and things, you know, different life phases. But I don't find myself being like, oh, yeah, this gave me the ick, or I didn't connect to this. And now I can really connect to it five or ten years later.

There's something like fundamental about it that just is my reaction. I do think that there is, there's definitely like a putting away childish things feeling about some movies I liked as a kid or young. You know, it was interesting even firing up the Princess Bride this morning just to kind of get back into the feeling of it. and I didn't have a bad experience with it, but it felt different. You know, to see a movie like that when you're six, that world feels so real and so big. And then when you watch, you know,

you're watching a giant screen and you're home with amazing sound. Yeah. And it's like, okay, I can kind of see the, you know, the cracks and the production design, like some of the artifice of the movie. Yeah. And that's another way that your kind of opinion can change about things.

Okay. Next question. You want to read this one? I'd love to. This is from Sam. I really liked the end of Hamnet, but I was taken out of the movie and rolled my eyes big time

when on the nature of daylight started playing to double underline the emotions of the scene. Can you think of any song's needle drops that take you out of the movie? Now, first one I thought of as kind of random, but the Pretender's Angel of the Morning plays in a moment where a demon is vomiting on a kid

in Chapter 2. I remember just being, bewildered by that? Angel of the morning gets used a lot. It does. The pretenders when we were growing up were licensed all the time. Yes. Love the pretenders. But just like as a needle drop to kind of draw your attention

also, I think it's kind of overused. The first one I thought of was that weird cover of skinny love in it ends with us, which is I literally burst out loud laughing in the fan screening. It was like you, me and a bunch of 20 year olds on dates

and I couldn't stop laughing. But it was transcendent. They couldn't have played anything else in that moment, but that woman whispering skinny love. Yeah. I can't do better than that.

That's a really good one. Okay. I was not taken out of it in Hamnet for the record. I wasn't either at all. It worked for me. I've been so interesting to hear people talking about this movie

and how much they love it or don't love it or you know it really is an interesting lightning rod this year um okay another hamnet question just finished oh this is jim by the way thank you jim just finished the hamlet and top five eps and got me thinking hamlet didn't make anyone's top five but buckley still feels like an oscar frontrunner if slightly weaker than a few months ago what are your thoughts on riveting towering shattering beautiful performances and films that didn't quite hit for you should that devalue the performance or its awards potential What are some of your all-time favorite performances in movies that were just meh?

I wrote down something that now I'm rethinking after riveting, towering, shattering, and beautiful. Okay. Which is an incredible, you know, movie poster, poll quote. But, you know, Walking Phoenix was very good in Joker, a movie I think is stupid. But he's really good. And it's like performance, not just of, like, presence, but the movement. We all know how I feel about the dancing, a bird pro. Yeah, but that movie sucks. He was good in it, but it sucks. I kind of liked Joker.

Okay, that's fine. There's a whole pot of me saying that I kind of like that. I mean, I think in retrospect, the culture around the movie, I thought was incredibly annoying. I think it's fascinating that it made a billion dollars. Joker 2, nightmare fuel? Still haven't seen it. But I really enjoyed your in Vance podcast, which I think was the first podcast I listened to after Si was born. Well.

Because I was like, Cy's due date was that weekend. I mean, that's touching to hear. You know, it's too bad that he couldn't still be inside you while you were listening to that episode. That would have been even more powerful.

I wrote down Marion Cotillard and La Vienne Rose. This is a good call. Which is a movie that I never really cared for, but you cannot deny the way in which she transforms. Yeah. And is just the towering, riveting, shattering quality is there. But that is ultimately just a musician.

biopic in many ways and this does happen a lot in the Best Actress category. You do see a lot of and maybe that's just because of the way that the Academy views female performers and the way that they choose to honor them but it's often not in the films that are nominated for Best Picture

it's often films that are like very singularly focused on a strong female figure but there's maybe not enough attention paid to the rest of the world around them. But you know it's not as often as you might think. I went through the Best Actress list because that was my first thought. I'm like, oh, well.

And the winning performances, it's either I didn't like the performance that much either, you know, along with the movie. For example, like, you know, Renee Zellweger and Judy. Yeah. It's not a great movie, but also she's okay. It's okay. It's a little showy. She's okay.

Yeah. And I like her. But for the most part, you don't get that unevenness of, wow, this is incredible stuff you're doing and everyone's just like a sleep around you. There's usually just a mediocrity across the board. Yeah, yeah. I also don't think Jesse Buckley is being received in that way. I don't think people are like having it as a mess except for her.

No, no, no, no. The movie is really, really, really well-liked. I'm okay, you read the next one. Okay. You both advocate for the idea or institution of the movie star and see it as a positive or virtuous force, something to preserve or advocate for. But I've never heard you explain why.

So I am curious, why do you care about preserving the movie star? What a great question, Luke. I love this question. Yeah. A couple of very obvious things. One, movies are dreams, and they have to be manifested in human form. And the best way to do that is by finding someone who you can feel your dreams through. Like, it's just a very simple thing where going back to talking about seeing the Reiner movies at a very young age, when you see Robin Wright in that movie, she is the embodiment of grace and beauty to a young person.

Like, she is just captivating. And I do think that we need a portal for those feelings. And stars deliver that. You know, J. Kelly is literally about that. Whether it's successful or not as debatable. But this notion of becoming deeper and more emotionally invested in storytelling by way of a person. And sometimes it's a hero holding a gun. And sometimes it's, you know, a person at the most painful stage of their life.

But... We're at this inflection point with storytelling and artificial intelligence. Yeah, fuck that. And I do think that, you know, I don't think that's the reason why I became really interested in movie stars as a young person. But I do think that now they're, you know, sort of receding in the culture feels tied to who we look to to feel and get excited. There's people are still doing that, you know, like influencers exist. TV shows are still popular. You know, it's not that that stuff

is completely shattered, but the Disney investment in Open AI and SORA is genuinely concerning for me, genuinely, because it legitimizes something that could send us down a really slippery slope.

And I was actually feeling like in the last few months, like there was a personal rejection, a very vocal rejection happening. You know, Guillermo does horror before every screening of this movie saying like there was no generative AI used in this movie.

fuck that. Jim Cameron doing the same thing. Like strong voices in the industry coming out really hard against it, but they see money and they're fearful of being overtaken. And that's why they're pursuing it. Well, to that point,

the investment is really, like, as in characters. I mean, that's, you know, the investment is an AI, but what it will enable people to do is use Disney-specific characters in, you know, in makeup. I don't know.

They're like sword fighting or whatever. Mini Mouse and Mirabelle from Encanto can have a cup of tea together. Right, which is cool or whatever. But the characters you can license, but the characters have in many ways in movies and in our culture replaced movie stars as the franchisable thing. And there is like a strategic, dangerous part to that, which is everything you just said of that it becomes less human and slips away from us. and then just is computerized or whatever.

But there is also you are losing like a human element in your movies. And so I think strategically in terms of the industry, you made the point, you know, there are influences, there are other people, but like we still live in a world that is either characters or people based. We like social media and getting people to care about movies requires like a personality rather than, um, You know, like, I don't know, a screenwriter or like some sort of... Well, you... Okay, here's a way to think about it. Think about Spider-Man. Yeah.

Spider-Man, one of the great characters, one of the defining characters of my young life. A character that persists. Like, maybe the most... Spider-Man and Batman, the most, like, indestructible franchises to the minds of young people that we've seen in the last 50 years. Spider-Man does not work without Peter Parker. There has to be a kid, a teenager, under the mask to get invested in that story. If you try to make a Spider-Man movie that is only Spider-Man in the mask, the movie will not work.

So even in the circumstances of the most aggressive IP expansion imaginable, the biggest possible tent, it's still about a person, that character that's been created. I'm not saying that's going to happen for all times, but, you know, Tom Holland and Toby McGuire have made this work because we like being with them. We like feeling their struggle. Yes. You attach to the person. Yes. Yes. I mean, completely agree. But then artistically, it's the same thing. We're like the difference

between photography and cinema, the difference between painting and cinema, the difference between like a fashion show and cinema. All of like things I love are the people, the actors. They are walking and talking, they are human. You are connecting how are they moving in this world? How are they

manipulating? What you are capturing is a person. a star. And so, and when they, and when they really do it in what movies in particular invented are, is, is that movie star, that person that is just like a little bit larger than life up on the screen. We always say, you know, you know it when you see it, but there is a presence and it, but it is the humanity that makes it different from a piece of still art or a piece of music or any of a other art form that we love. So that's why they matter because it is, it's like the singular creation of the movies. Well said.

Last question. You want to read it? Sure. I recently went to see one of my top five favorite films, The Shining, in IMAX, and consider that to be

one of the best theater-going experiences of the year and potentially ever. Are there any other film classics that would raise your eyebrows to see getting the IMAX re-release treatment?

This should happen for a lot of movies. It happened for Apollo 13 this year and I missed it, which would have been my answer. It's a tough one. My mind flashed on the good, the bad, and the ugly first because of the size and scope of that movie. And just Leonie capturing the eyes on the biggest screen possible would be really exciting.

But I mean, any film classic, I missed The Shining as well. That would have been really exciting. But I, you know, this does feel a little bit like backstopping, like this worst case scenario situation we're heading into with movie going where it's like, okay, well, at least you can go see blank. You know, I almost went to go see the Jim Carrey, the Grinch still. Christmas, Ron Howard movie this weekend with my daughter. We ended up not being able to make it. But I was like, I don't, you know, I've actually never seen that movie. And she loves the Grinch right now. We're all about the Grinch. We visited, you know, Whoville at Universal Studios. So now Grinch culture, Cindy Lou. Okay. Sure. She's a big deal. Mega Cindy Lou vibes for sure. Huge.

There's, I have a wonderful photo of them meeting at Universal Studios. Yeah. That's cute. Big moment. But I was like, it just makes sense to just put that movie on an IMAX screen for five nights every December 10th, like that this methodology, this strategy works, but I don't know if there's any individual movies that you really would like to see in this format. Well, going back to classic movies, you know, I was thinking West Side Story, singing anything with movement, which for me would be choreography, just as big as possible, would be really fun. But like, you know, I would like to go see, I missed the sense and sensibility re-release

because I have to go see Anaconda instead, which is. my life. I want to see Anaconda instead. But, you know, I don't need that to be IMAX. I would love for that to just be like in a big, beautiful theater. I thought when we did the Anglorious Bastards event, like that print was so gorgeous. So getting to see movies that I love in the way or in the best possible format of how they were made or how they were intended to be made is cool. Like, I mean, that is, it's just called a repertory theater, you know, and bless all of those people. So if we could get more work for programmers and get more, like, again, it's not a bad thing. I'm open to it.

Agreed. Yeah, go see Sense and Sensibility if you can. You love premium large formats. You're always saying that. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Like an action blockbuster, the holidays move quick. But with Prime, fast free delivery means those last-minute gifts arrive right when you need them. Last year, while I walked in singing in the rain with my son,

I realized a pair of tap shoes would be a perfect Christmas gift, and I had them under the tree for him on Christmas Day. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. Last minute holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. Let's pivot. Thank you for your questions, as always.

Great questions. Wake Up Dead Man, a Knives Out Mystery. This is the third film in the series, once again written and directed by Ryan Johnson. The stars of this film as Benoit Blanc, Daniel Craig returns, Josh O'Connor, Glenn Close, Josh Brolin, Milakunis,

Jeremy Renner, Kerry Washington, Andrew Scott, Kaylee Spaney, Darrell McCormick, and Thomas Hayden Church. Wildly qualified collection of actors in this movie. The logline is A baffling death inside a quiet church

draws Benoit Blanc into a tense investigation where faith secrets and suspicion blur as a close community turns against itself. All right. What did you think about this?

I like these movies. I like Ryan Johnson and I share a huge passion for Agatha Christie, the Agatha Christie adaptations of the 70s. A similar sense of humor. He makes me laugh. I like many of the actors he chooses to be in his films. And I'm never going to say no to hanging out with Daniel Craig and Josh O'Connor together for several hours. And I think that there's a really delightful buddy comedy in the middle of this. I do not care about Catholicism this much.

I just don't care. And listen, I was raised Catholic as well. And I've, you know, I went to a Christian school. I've, like, I've had a lot of these questions, done a lot of investigations myself, know where I am on it. And then like sort of unmoved by it. So it's really Catholic. I rewatched it again last night to make sure, like, was I, you know, am I overest, how much of the time is spent talking about the church and faith and making jokes about it.

And it is like really, really, really embedded. And that it's not that it's not well done. I just like, I don't care this much about priests. I just don't. So that is where I'm dead it. I think it will sound odd if I say I do care this much about priests because I'm not sure that that's exactly what's going on. You know, when I was going to church as a kid, I also was raised Catholic, there was a kind of an intonation and invocation that you would hear priests. And the priest in my church sang.

And the priest would say, saying, let us proclaim the mystery of our faith in a very stentorian tone. And let us proclaim the mystery of our faith. That's the thing you'd hear over and over again in church. And I had no idea what that meant. I didn't understand it as a kid. I didn't explore it. I was not interested in it. This movie is interested in that.

This movie is very specifically interested in that. I don't think you have to be a person who is undecided about their faith for this movie to be interesting. And I don't think you need to be Catholic or a non-believer to get interested in this movie. It probably helps if you're open to exploring it because as a mystery, I think the movie is just okay. I think actually Ryan Johnson has kind of gotten a little bit like, his, very interested in the mechanics, but maybe not in the propulsion of the mystery itself. And I think that happens when you write

a series of movies like this. I think he's trying to do something really interesting. And has been mostly successful in this part, which is he's trying to make movies that are otherwise meant to be going down easy entertainments, which the Agatha Christie stories, which are great,

but are very rarely, like, thematically deep and rich. They are page turners. No. And he's trying to put big personal ideas. is into the movies. The first movie is about the sort of like corrosive nature of wealth and what wealthy people do to hurt others and

in turn everyone, you know, in the world. Which is what every Christi mystery is about. It is always about money and someone needed money or someone wanted the inheritance or something. So the first one is grounded. It's like in its text and

genre and what it's examining is the genre itself. Right. And so the further you move away, from that and you use the same genre to explore different ideas, you're just stuffing a lot of things. Yeah. And I think the second movie is a kind of an extension of that first idea, which is it's about influencers and the desire for fame and success and technology and the kind of grotesque people that were presented with in our common life every day and like the ways in which they fight each other for their share of the pie and we all watch. And there's some cleverness in it. I didn't think

that movie was as funny as I wanted it to be. But I thought it got some. really good performances. And the same with the first film. The first film has great stuff from, you know, Tony Collette. And that's like the best Chris Evans has ever been, and Onida Armis. And the second film, Kate Hudson, is really great in that movie. Edward Norton is great in that movie. The third film is more serious than the first two.

And it is a movie that is, you know, it's a big delivery machine for Johnson thinking through his ideas of faith. And he talked in our conversation, I thought, really sincerely about, when you have it and then you lose it. And this movie features a character that has it and another character who has lost it or maybe never had it. And they're in dialogue. And those two characters are the Joshua O'Connor character

who's a priest, Father Judd, and Benoit Blanc, who's a detective, a man of logic, not a person who's interested in the mystery of faith. He solves mysteries. That stuff in this movie, I thought was really cool. And particularly the moment when you get near the sort of like the two-thirds of the way through the movie, movie, almost near the end of the movie, when Blanc, who takes a long time to get to the

film, who basically sits out the first 40 minutes in this movie, but when he sort of takes over at the two hour mark, one hour and 45 minute mark, and he's like, he's solving the movie, and he's doing the thing he's done in the previous two films, and he's saying, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then he can't close the loop, he can't figure out the last step of the mystery, and that is some, that is a feeling that I have been confronted with about thinking about God and where we come from and why we're here and all those big questions. To put that in a, like a crime mystery movie, I think is very cool.

And for him to get stumped and for logic to fail us, I think is a powerful concept. I do think that I was not really as interested in the solution of the crime. And maybe in that way, it's a success, though. I think that's maybe inadvertent. I was trying to figure out with. which really famous person only took the movie to do, you know, because they were the person. So I, which was like... They were the criminal.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was not invested in the mechanics of the mystery. I was just trying to invest in the, like, superficial layer of like, okay, so it's going to be one of these people because they wanted to like chew a lot of scenery and then have a twist. So who's it going to, who's it going to be? Is it this person? Is it this person? So maybe that is also it, I'm, I was engaged with. with the meta of the genre, as opposed to trying to solve the mystery,

but I wouldn't say it was, like, satisfying in that way. Yeah, I felt that most of the folks who were in the secondary cast, the suspects, were all, like, kind of rough shades of characters, whereas I felt like Father Judd was probably the most clearly realized character Johnson's ever put in one of these movies. He was wonderful. Like, I mean, Josh O'Connor has, you know, been everywhere this season. I thought he was used so beautifully. He was funny and emotional.

He and Daniel Craig have great chemistry. I really do hope they bring him back. I would love to have the buddy duo solving crimes. Maybe they don't have to talk as much about their spiritual crisis, but at some point I was kind of like, do you want to be in a philosophy class right now or do you not? I know, but you do. You like that.

And it's just, it's your mileage may vary. I thought all of the other jokes were very funny. It is very, there is a lot of comedy. I like hanging out with these people, even though I agree that, like, the prayer group, I didn't know what was going on with the prayer group. Yeah, I think it's an interesting case of a few, more than one person being miscast in their parts.

Right. Like, Andrew Scott to me is definitively miscast in this movie as a kind of like fantasy writer who's making a pivot towards right-wing sub-stacking and becomes a zealot for this priest. So, you know, just to put some fencing around the story, Josh Brolin plays this monseigneur at this church that has a dwindling flock and the people who are staying are these hardcore believers in his methodology.

The Brolin character is a very clear one-to-one projection for Donald Trump. The sort of like invective and insanity that he's preaching from the pulpit, but he still is retaining like a kind of maniacal allegiance from the true believers. And also just has some of the greatest confessions of, I mean, it's so funny. Trying to push Father Judd. off of his square. Yeah. They're really good stuff

between the two of them too. I think Brolin's really good in this too. You know, he's kind of playing like a very, um, an unsophisticated caricature

of this idea that we understand about people in the world. It's not just Trump, but there's a lot of Trump-like qualities to the way that he leads. And I think all that stuff is really fun, but the people who are alleging to him feel more like chess pieces than people.

Yes. Whereas you've got this really strong counterpoint with what O'Connor is doing. And, you know, he's riffing on some sort of old movie archetype too where he's a priest. He used to be a boxer and he accidentally killed a guy and that challenged his faith and pushed him even further into being a person who does good. But he still has this kind of native violence inside of him and he's trying to fight that. All that stuff I think is really clever and works really well. I think Johnson's sense of social commentary is usually pretty broad. I don't know if that's a bad thing necessarily

But it doesn't it's like it can be incisive about the right ideas But anytime you can feel his point of view on politics coming into view It feels a little bit softer and more obvious to me than when he is really zeroing in on Something that is like racking his brain So I don't know I mean I The Bridget Everett scene Is wonderful and that's also an example that that is about faith and that is like a really beautiful and beautifully acted scene

between two people on a phone that is like almost from another movie but that's okay amazing example of what a good writer he is yeah totally and and also both people perfectly cast for that scene so that was really lovely it has so many great moments

that's what I'm saying like the idea of the confession the idea of like why you need someone and something to believe in is such a rich idea that like like the mystery stuff is kind of getting in the way of some of that stuff at times. It's two and a half hours and there's just, there's a lot. There's a lot going on in it. A lot of people.

Um, a lot of plot maneuvering, a lot of. And so I think that I, I connected to a lot of it, not all of it. But to your point, it's really enjoyable and easy to watch. And does it matter if I connect to every bit of it because many people will watch and really enjoy this? Mm-hmm. And it's not not successful. You think a movie like this can change the way people feel? Because people don't turn on knives out movies to change the way they feel.

I think they're these sort of like velvety, frictionless fun times. But they're all undergirded with heavy stuff. And I genuinely don't know if people like that component. That's probably my favorite component of the films. But I don't know if the general audience does. I don't know whether they consciously do. I don't think that these movies are successful because people, or like, now I'm re-evaluating my relationship to my faith

and the Catholic Church, circa 2020 or whatever. But I do think that they're successful movies and that they are crowd pleasers, you know, with something elevated, something that maybe you don't think about. I mean, you know, to like to bring it back to Rob Reiner, there's like a lot more going on.

I mean, there's these movies which are a lot denser, but broad fare done smartly, that can really maybe just like twist or poke someone without them realizing is increasingly rare and a real accomplishment.

Might be getting back into faith in 2026. Maybe not a religion. Right. This is the second time that you've brought up your burgeoning spirituality. The first time was like two hours into Avatar the way of water. So I just want to do

a little wellness check there for you. I'm doing well. I think I'm really thinking about the second half of my life. I'm being dead serious. I have a young child, you know? My dad's getting older and lost my mom. I'm really trying to like figure it out. Even in talking to Ryan,

I could not help but think of my mama watching this movie because she was a very faithful person. And one thing that I told him was that she was close friends with a couple of priests, especially in second half of life. So like I would come home from school. Yeah. And Father Bruce would just be sitting on the couch.

And I'd be like, what fuck is this? Like, is he allowed to be here? Like, do they let them out of the rectory? It is like seeing your teacher outside of school When you're 12. Yes. So, you know, I don't know that I definitely don't feel a strong attraction to, like, Catholicism. Yeah.

I have a lot of problems with Catholicism, the church. Like, I'm not really interested in that. But spirituality, yes. Organized religion. Not so much. I'm hard mixed on. Yeah. I'm with you on that.

Yeah. Okay. What about, would this movie have made $400 million at the movie theater? We said that about Glass Onion, right? We were like, if you put this in theaters, this would have made so much money? Now it feels like the movie has been, like, defined. as a streaming property, which is kind of frustrating. Right. Because I think the next one doesn't have to be Netflix.

Oh, they're out of their contract? I think they're out of their deal on that? I don't know. I don't know. I could be wrong about that. They didn't tell me. Who didn't? Ted?

Did Ted call you? Yeah. I mean, it's Ted. Look, I'm just calling because I have the details of the Knives Out contract here for you. And I just want you to know, we've just closed the deal. Here are all the details. Right. Yeah.

That's the call I'm hoping for from Ted. Anyway. This is a pleasant movie. Yeah, it is. Oscars? I don't think so. I don't think so either. Yeah.

Do we leave it at that? Yeah. Okay. Let's go to my conversation with Ryan Johnson. Ryan Johnson, back on the show. I haven't seen you in a few years. And I was thinking about something watching Wake Up Dead Man. When you made the deal to make two more Knives Out, Benoit Blanc films,

did you know what either of those movies were going to be, even in terms of like general direction, I want to make a movie that is kind of like this or kind of like this. Not really when we first made the deal. But I guess I figured it, I'd figure it out. But I very quickly, like with Glass Onion, kind of landed on, okay,

I wanted to do something kind of to illustrate that one of the things I love about the murder mystery genre is just all the different things it can be, just how different and all the little subgenres almost inside it. So I wanted to make something that was very distinct from Knives Out to kind of show what the range of this series could be. And I love Death on the Nile, Evil Under the Sun, I love Last of Sheila. It was in the middle of COVID, so the notion of having an exotic beach vacation

sounded really nice to me, and I assumed for audiences too. So it kind of defined itself as that. And then this one, a little bit of the same thing, it was, you know, Glass Onion ended up being a very broad kind of comedic movie, which is exactly what we set out to make. But I just kind of, after doing that,

I felt like, well, it would be nice to ground it for this third one and maybe take it to a place that is also, very different from the first two. Kind of make it a little more personal for myself and bringing it kind of back down to earth a little bit. Do you find that every film that you make is a kind of reaction in a way to the previous movie that you had made or an attempt to kind of do something

that you hadn't done previously? Well, yeah, I mean, not strategically, not like sitting down and thinking, okay, how do I... But I think, I mean, for me, because I write these movies also, you know, the process of making a movie is, several years. And it's, I like to say, it's kind of like having the same thing for lunch for a few years. At the end of that process, you're, yeah, I think you're just kind of thirsting

for something different. And for me, I'm also like, you know, I've kind of, for me, I do feel like I need to always feel like I'm a little frightened going into something because I don't know how to do it. And the way to do that is to try something new every time, I guess. I have a lot of questions about faith and your faith. But one thing that does jump out to me about this movie in particular is it seems like a little bit of a confrontation with the idea of like, why do we like stories like this? Especially if we are raised to believe that the things that happen in these stories are wrong. And like you're undeniably drawn to the construction and particulars and motivations of murder mystery. Yeah.

And then this is a movie grounded in a world of good deed, right? Intent or at least the hope of good deed. Yeah, yeah. Was that on your mind trying to construct this? I mean, I guess a little bit. It's kind of, I mean, because I don't even know. It's not even specific to faith in terms of that. We're all, whether we're raised in faith or not, we're, hopefully we're brought up to think murder is bad.

Hopefully. And where do we go? The incident, we have some free reading time. We go straight to a murder. book but I mean if anything I think that for me one of the things I kind of wanted to delve into with the movie is I think there's actually a lot of parallels between the structure of a murder mystery and and the overall kind of story of faith I guess it's it's you know the murder mystery starts with

starts with an original sin a murder and the universe is thrown into moral chaos and then the detective kind of, that's usually the kind of patriarchal detective descends from the heavens into the story and listens to everyone's confession and then sorts out the truth and hands the answer at the end and judges the guilty and restores the universe to moral rights. So in that way, I think it actually, these stories snap in very well with someone who was raised in the church and raised religious in a way, but so well, actually, that that's something I kind of wanted to draw those parallels out

and explore that. Were those your favorite kinds of stories, the ones that had a kind of moral rectitude, like at the end there you're just like, okay, well, the evil force has been identified and imprisoned in the good detective, because I feel like there's shades of gray is what makes so many of these kinds of stories.

It's so effective. I mean, yeah, I guess it depends specifically which ones you're talking about, I feel like especially when I was growing up, I was drawn towards moral clarity. And then especially as I, as I got older, I think you start getting into movies that are made in the 70s that have a lot less than getting into authors who you start looking a little closer even to works that you thought you knew and you realize now there's a lot of gray there. But with, I don't know, I mean, murder mysteries, is it though, and very specifically, kind of the hoodonet genre, although there's a lot of

different gradations of that. I think they do tend to, like I think the word cozy when people describe these, it's not necessarily because of firesides and because of warm dens, you know, I think that it's, I think it has more to do with the fact that they do always kind of neatly tie up at the end, usually. I mean, Christy did some books where they did it, you know, or where they tie up in a way that I think her best book and then there were none. It does very much tie up at the end

but in a morally a way that leaves a lot of questions and the reader's lap in terms of how they want to parse the moral outcome of it all. So anyway, yeah, but I do think it's an inherent, it is a form that kind of

the promise of the premise is that there will be kind of a button put on at the end in terms of the moral conclusion. I'm personally very interested in the dissolution of religious practice generationally, in America especially, and I think that people use that as a cudgel to make arguments about why things are one way or another, but there's no denying that I was raised in the Catholic Church. It sounds like you were as well. I wasn't raised Catholic. I was raised Protestant, evangelical. But it's not just that I was, you know, I don't know how it was for you. for me, it wasn't just that I was like taken to church a lot when I was a kid. I was up through my mid-20s. I was very personally Christian and just it was really, you know, a big part of my

identity. It was how I framed the world through a very personal relationship with Christ. And I'm not a believer anymore. But for that period of my life, it was a really personal thing. Yeah, I'm sorry. Well, I'm interested in that. I'm also not a believer anymore. And I think, I think, think that for me personally it was this idea of logic and practicality winning out over something that he couldn't grasp right everybody has different reasons for losing it or moving away from it or even just I find a lot of people actually just kind of put it on the bench and then come back to it at a later stage in their life yeah that happens yeah and so I'm kind of wondering like maybe with that you don't have to be too personal but I'm curious just about like

your journey with it and then the idea of saying like I'm moving on from but then what in your life now made you confront it again or think about these ideas and plug it into this world that is such a very fun world, you know, that has been like this incredible boon of success for you personally. Yeah. It is like the thing you're known for now. Yeah. And now you're like using it to channel something that is very complex.

Yeah, yeah, which was part of the appeal of it. I mean, I think that, yeah, there's a lot to unpack on what you just have. Let's go back a couple sentences. Let's start with starting with kind of the notion of reason or logic kind of way. I mean, for me, I don't know that I would frame my kind of moving away from faith and no longer being a believer as for me it was less kind of, although that was an element of it, just literally losing my belief in the reality of the thing that I had believed in up until then.

But I also didn't have any, I think probably because, I don't know, my second movie I made The Brothers Bloom was kind of in a very oblique way, sort of very much about this. It's what I was going through when I was writing it. It was very much about the notion of how you frame the world around you. And more than anything else, more than some kind of tangible belief in the supernatural or belief in an afterlife or any of the things

that people think faith centers on. For me, what my faith was was a lens through which I viewed everything in the world. Everything in the world got filtered through that lens. And it was a, you know, not to, I don't mean this to be little at all

when I say it was a narrative framing device because I think that we all, we can't survive in this world without a narrative framing device. To me, that's just being alive is an active act of storytelling, where you take in the raw world around you and then you figure out

how you're going to tell it back to yourself. And that's totally what Judeo-Christian faith does is it tells stories to communicate ideas, right? Yeah, and Christ communicating through parables and in the larger sense. I mean, that's also what, I mean, every philosophy does. That's what, I mean, modern society does. That's what, I think that's just,

it's so central to our experience, to what our existence is as a human being and how we make sense of this insane world that we're floating in the middle of space. So anyway, all to say that for me, I don't think I ever had the sense that I was kind of shedding this illusion of faith in order to find some raw truth

of the actual logical real universe or something. For me, it was more drifting away and I no longer believe in this, and it actually created kind of a crisis in my 20, of realizing Ania defines another thing to frame the world through, you know. So using it in this film and in this world. And I'm sure you're getting this quite a bit, but the movie kind of hides Benoit Blanc. Like this really does become the story of this priest and Josh's character.

And I'm curious about that decision and also maybe what that reflects about the kind of movie that you wanted to make. Obviously, Benoit Blanc comes into the movie at a certain point. and is important to the film. I promise. Daniel Craig is in this movie. But we spend a lot of time with this priest who is trying to figure out the morality of this world that he is thrust into, which feels like a very gentle metaphor for the world that we live in right now. I assume that's what you were aiming for.

Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, it's funny. that, I mean, this, in a way, this kind of has a much more traditional murder mystery structure to it. This is the way most murder mystery books work is first act. As you set up all the characters, you kind of get a very good idea of who's going to get bumped off. They get bumped off, and then the detective shows up to solve it. And so I had actually kind of done narrative backflips in the first two movies to not have it structured that way. So with this one, besides just like, okay, well, let's try. let's order vanilla let's try like the basic thing on this one um also though it it suited

the story very well because father judd who's kind of the central character is played by josh o'connor um because the movie is about things that are a little bit more complicated and require a little and also things that are very personal and important to me and i didn't want to shorthand them in a way that would feel reductive or didactic. I wanted to take the time to kind of actually explore the complexity of what he was of the conflict of Father Judd in this world. And I knew the instant Blanc came into the story that would detract from that. So the notion of giving Judd that first act in this world for the audience really to get a full picture kind of of what he wants and why he can't get it.

And the bigger picture of all the characters and Wicks played with Monsignor Wicks played by Josh Brolin and the whole thing. Yeah, it seemed like it would suit it well, you know. I want to ask you about priests. When my parents split up, my mom became very invested in the church. And she'd befriended a priest and he became a social friend. So she would have parties and Father Bruce would be at my house, which was very disorienting at first

but I think was pretty powerful ultimately to just learn that he was a pretty regular guy and I don't know if you knew priests growing up in Josh's character I see a pretty regular guy which is not usually what you see of priests in movies

so like I said growing up evangelical Protestant that meant growing up in youth groups and that meant that it's funny I was just reminiscing the other day with like a someone when I met who was in a youth group kid also. And it's a very distinct vibe.

Yes, my wife was a youth group kid as well. Oh, there you go. All right, there you go. So, I mean, and it's a thing where, like, you know, the youth pastor was maybe the equivalent of a priest, but it's kind of just with the acoustic guitar, just like a gentleman. Come on, man. That's a very, very recognizable guy. Let's get real.

Let's talk about your walk with Christ. Come on. And so regular guy up the wazoo, where I come from. The priests, though, I mean, also because Catholicism was kind of exotic to me, because I wasn't raised in it, the priests always did have that kind of like outer shell. I have an uncle and aunt who are very Catholic, who I'm very close to, and I love a lot. And they live in Denver, and they were very kind when I told them about the script I was writing. They said, well, they invited me, basically. I flew out to Denver, and they did a dinner.

at their place with their priests and Father Scott and he invited like five of his like friends who are young priests in Denver. And so I had this amazing dinner with a half dozen young priests and we all just got drunk and it became a big Ask Me Anything session.

Would you mind sharing a couple of the things that you talked about like without betraying anyone's confidence? Because I'm curious to hear how they want to be seen in a way. Well, it was interesting. We didn't talk about theology or faith, really. We talked about their lives. We talked about what their lives were actually like. And I was kind of like nervous to like, you know, to go into the whole celibacy thing, which today is the first thing you want to ask. It was the first thing

they brought up and started talking. Interesting. And they, it was very insightful. I mean, just, I mean, first of all, just like, yeah, incredibly insightful hearing from them. And also, also what you're talking about in terms of Father Bruce just hanging out at your parties. At my mom's house, yeah. Immediately it was that vibe because they were just like cool.

They were just like, you know, young guys and they're like, you know. And I mean, I remember one thing that ended up translating directly into the movie, for example, they were talking about how, you know, when they go to the grocery store, they're wearing, you know,

the collar, the clerical collar. And that means there are, on stage all the time. So they'll be picking out avocados in the grocery store and a woman will come up and start sobbing to them because her dad has just died or someone will come up and get in their face and start screaming at them, you know. And that's something I had never even thought about, the notion that in a way, you know, they're always at work and that means to an extent and always kind of the way people must load and just kind of what you're describing,

everyone kind of has that reaction to them in their entire regular lives. Yeah, it's like being a politician but with no individual identity. Right. It's like you stand for something. Yeah. But you're not responsible to it.

Right. For creating it. It's a very odd role in life. And also unlike a policy, it's like being a politician if all politicians wore a t-shirt that said politician on it. Right, right.

I am Nancy Pelosi. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's an interesting job And can you tell me why you chose Josh We just had a conversation on the show Last week about The Mastermind Oh my God, I love that movie, so great And he's wonderful

And he's in this kind of period Where you're watching a person become That very rare, like, brilliant actor, movie star blend where you can put a movie on his shoulders But he's super gifted and very I find so versatile in terms Like the kind of material that he can do Yeah

Maybe just tell me why you chose him, what you'd seen him in that you liked. Yeah, so I hadn't been familiar with him. I mean, I'd seen him in The Crown, I guess, but Daniel actually knew him through Luca. And so they screened challengers for us before it came out. And, I mean, it was my favorite movie of that year. I love that movie. So good. And, I mean, he just, like, popped off the screen.

But then I saw La Chimera, which is such a different, I mean, almost the play. polar opposite performance and he was equally as truthful and magnetic in that and I was just like oh my god I think I think this guy can do anything and then I met him and he was absurdly nice suspiciously nice like you almost can't believe a guy is that cool and and I just thought I want to I want to I want to work with this guy I want to be outside with this guy and we caught him at a great time I bet if we had gotten to him today, we wouldn't have gotten him because he's in everything at this point. He's in so much stuff. He's like working with Spielberg and like Jill Cohen.

He's like, and he's so busy. But rightfully so I am really excited to see, you know, over the next five, ten, however many years, how he develops. Because I think he's the full package. I think he can do it all. Yeah. How about ensembles now? So three movies in a row like this where you have. you know, extremely well-known people

in these kind of modest parts, right? So, like, I'm curious about the psychology of actors who want to come in and do this. Like, if you're Kerry Washington, she's insanely famous, she's a fairly modest part in this role. It's a critical part, but it's not that big. Yeah.

So why do the people want to do it? And how do you navigate having five movie stars who all get, like, a real small piece of the pie relative to what they're used to, I would imagine? Well, I mean, it's a great, great, great question. But it kind of answers itself. I think the truth is we've had such a great time with all three of these casts. I've never not once had to deal with like any movie star ego stuff at all.

Quite the opposite. And I think the answer is exactly that every single one of these people are people who carry their own movies. The only reason for them to sign up for this is because they want to be part of an ensemble and because they love actors and they want that experience of kind of, being in a little summer stock group for one movie.

And so they show up on set, and we really try and facilitate that by, it kind of happened organically with the first two movies, but in this one, we built like some tents off the side of the stage that were the green room for them all to hang out in together. And nobody went back to their trailers. Everyone just kind of gravitated towards that. And it's because that's kind of the appeal of this, I think,

is you're going to be in a true ensemble with another group of actors. And good actors love that. I mean, that's the thing. I don't know, you can see them kind of really feeding off of that when they show up on set. I don't know if I've ever asked you

about your sets before. Have they changed over time? Like, what kind of, what vibe are you going for when you're making a movie? I mean, I grew up making movies with my friends. I went to film school,

but I think my real film school was just in high school making stupid movies on the weekends and that was what we did to hang out um and that's how i want my sets to feel and i've been very fortunate that all of my set like even the star wars movie had that had that vibe on set i saw it in the documentary yeah you can feel it's really it was really true it's like um and so that's how that's the vibe that i always want and with these movies that's kind of why it's been you know kind of addictive making them is because you got all these great actors they show up for a good time and it's just primed to kind of have the set feel like we're back in high school again

together to make something fun together. And I mean, that comes from a lot of hard work and that comes from being prepared and knowing what you want. And I think that comes from everyone relaxing and everyone can relax when they know that I'm going to make them, I'm going to make them look hopefully good, you know, in a good movie. So that's part of it. But, it's also just, you know, it's a vibe. So, I know you get asked this all the time, but you're like, how, will you make these, these films, the Benoit Blanc movies, like, for 40 more years? Like, is that your intention is to kind of keep coming back to this world? I know it sounds like you're going to maybe take a break from them, at least for the next thing.

Yeah, I'm writing something different for the next movie. I mean, look, I would be thrilled to keep making these until, I'd be thrilled to live another, 40 years. God bless you for that. Well, but I would be thrilled to... 30 years. Wow. That's aim for... 37 more years. 37. That's a good round number.

I would be thrilled to keep coming back to these. I guess the caveat is just, you know, as long as Daniel still enjoys making it, as long as audiences are still into it. And as long as, and this is nice that he and I can share this, as long, I think we both feel like the instant, it feels like we're turning the crank on another one will stop like they we have to be able to with each new one really do something different that's challenging ourselves and um and hopefully that'll translate for the audience into them knowing each one of these is a different novel on the shelf that's going to give

you a different experience um and you're not just going to go and see us kind of doing doing the thing again you know many of your films feature this but obviously the last three have been so pointedly mysteries but what it having done this now and this is true and Rick, and even in the Star Wars film, like, when you're designing a mystery, what is the most important thing in terms of cracking it? Well, I mean, there's a few different layers to it. There's, I mean, there's all the setups and the payoffs and all that stuff, and there's kind of the, but honestly, I feel like the most important thing is that you start from the same

basic fundamentals you start with with a non-mytery, which is, who's your protagonist? what do they want why can't they get it why do we care and that combined with hopefully the movie being for me engaging with something personal that i'm angry about or thinking about you know that i can use to kind of explore for myself um to give it some juice uh that that being the fundamental thing of it and the mystery element of it serving that because um i don't think that I think that's the spine you've got to build everything on. Did Agatha Christie write from that place, do you know,

or do any of the other great mystery writers? Oh, yeah. Just that personal manifestation of a feeling? 100%. You read Christy, and you read especially her best books, and they're always, I mean, what she was so good at was character, and they're always character-based.

And you can see there's always a protagonist in them. There's always what keeps you, engaged is the personal motivations of each of the suspects even, you know, and also the protagonist is never the detective or is rarely the detective. It's usually somebody who has skin in the game who's actually in the middle of the mystery. But yeah, you think about death on the Nile and one of the all-time great basic setups and it's this vicious love triangle that you're immediately pulled into. Or, yeah, but all the great mystery writers. John Dixon Carr, who we, you know, name check throughout this, was also

fantastic and immediately pulling you in with human drama and with Gothic atmosphere. I think all the great mystery writers knew instinctively that the mystery was not something that would bear the weight of entertaining an audience for an entire story. So I was thinking back on other times that we had talked to prepare for this conversation. And the first time that I met you, It was in a Disney conference room in 2017. And I had really just started doing this show. Yeah. And it had a nice chat. But I, you know, I really, I liked all of your movies to that point.

Yeah. And was very interested in where your career was going. And I'm sure I asked you some, I like fumbled through some questions about, like, the arc of your career. Sure, I fumbled through some answers. No. But, you know, from that moment to now is a very unusual, right? because you have worked in some of the significant modes

of major Hollywood through that roughly what, eight or nine year period, maybe 10 years total, including when you started making the Star Wars film. So Star Wars film, you built your own franchise. And then that franchise

became part of the biggest streaming service in the world. Is this even a little bit what you thought it was going to be when you were making Jedi in 16. No, you know, no way, man. Yeah, no, you don't know, right?

I mean, I don't know, but did you know when we were saying they're doing that? Yeah, but I'm just a schmock. You're like a guy who makes movies. No, no, no, it's very silly. It's like, I think that, no, I think, and I don't know. I don't know how you feel, but my, not just, not like a philosophy of how to approach a career, but literally the only way that you can do it, I think that works is, you know. quote Joseph Campbell, you got to follow your bliss.

You've got to just got to put your foot in the next place where it's most exciting to take this next step to, you know. And that's literally the only thing that I've ever done and the notion of somehow projecting forward like a 10-year plan or something. Like there are people who are maybe brilliant who can do that. I've never even tried to do that. To me, it's all about what is the very next experience that I want to have. What's the next story?

I want to tell what's the most exciting next. thing to do. And so it's really not looking much further than the next step with each one of these. I wanted to ask you at T Street. This is another thing that I don't think was happening in 2017? No, I think we started it like right around or right after there. Yeah, yeah. I really, the impression I get is that you're trying to identify first time or early filmmakers

or independent filmmakers and give them a little bit more of a boost. Yeah. I don't know what other kind of presiding philosophy. philosophy you have no that's that's that's a big part of it it's um you know and and and in the context of um finding filmmakers who have exciting voices who are also we're also kind of dedicated to finding filmmakers who have exciting voices who want to make whatever you want to call that quote unquote commercial films like our films that are made for audiences to enjoy and i say that as someone who loves, who loves art house movies and loves, loves, loves. And some of my favorite

films every year are always weird art house movies. We're kind of dedicated to, okay, let's find voices that are really interesting and passionate and engaging in kind of commercial filmmaking. Yeah. How are you finding that? Because like you've had pretty good success. You got an Academy Award winning film on the, on the roster, right? Like in court and Chloe Domain was on the show. and, you know, Snack Shack, one of our favorites from last year, like some really good movies. Yeah. But those kinds of films are very challenged, like, to get in front of audiences right now.

We talk about it every week, probably too much. But how do you think about that phase of the business in terms of getting movies in front of people? Well, it's a challenge. And in terms of how we do it, I should also say I'm, you know, my producer, Ron Bergman, and then our producing team at T-Straight is really the, they're the ones who, do it i get to be the cool uncle these projects it's not like i'm in there reading a thousand scripts i'm i'm doing my own movies and and i get to check in so um so all the credit to them it's but it is i mean it's it's a it is a challenge you also though i think you have to

operate from a feeling of faith to come back to um come back to faith you have to operate from a feeling of faith that if you make something um i don't know if you make something that's truly interesting and truly good. It'll find its audience, and it might be a roundabout way of finding it. It might take a while. It might not. But I think that's, I know from it as someone who makes movies, you have to have that faith. You have to believe that if you're making something that is good and entertaining and truly

interesting and passionate and all those things, the people who need to see it are. going to see it, you know. What's your favorite phase of filmmaking at this point? Everything but writing. Okay. Are you writing right now? Yeah. Even right, no, writing's great.

Anyone who writes, you know what I'm talking. I love having written. Yeah. But I love it all. I love, and prep is a pain of the ass. But you got to do it. I mean, prep is where the movie's made. But I love shooting.

I feel there's no place I feel more comfortable in the world than on one of my own sets while we're shooting. It's bliss. I love editing. I love the editing process. I love the post process where all the technicians come in and start just what the last 3% of the process does to make it feel like an actual movie

is always magic to me every single time. And I love actually the phase with Wake Up Dead Man that we're in. I love showing the movie and releasing it and having conversations about it and taking around to audiences at festivals. So I don't know, man, I feel really, yeah, I feel really, really, really blessed and lucky to be able to do what I do, you know. Ryan, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen?

You mentioned that you've been seeing a lot of great stuff this fall. I have been seeing a lot of, I think there's a lot of great movies right now. Feel free to recommend a few things. I was going to, I love the mastermind. I mean, you know, one battle after another is an all-timer, but everyone is talking about that. Yes, we've been covering it here. You guys have covered it very well.

Yeah, I love that interview you guys. Thanks. Yeah, you did with Paul and Leo. Okay, what's something a little more far afield? I actually, I mean, I have friends who have movies coming out, like your most Frankenstein movie is very personal. Edgar writes The Running Man is a blast. I just saw it. It's so fun.

It's so fun, man. Yeah. And there's a movie that I don't know when it's coming out. I don't know if it's coming out until the beginning of next year or if it's this fall, but there's a movie called Pillion that I saw. You see it? Yes, I saw it a tell your eye. I saw it at a tell you right.

Yes, it's so funny and sweet. So good. Yeah. And just like a great relationship drama. Can you describe it a little bit to the audience? Yeah, so it's a British film. It is basically about, what's the name of the actor, the main actor, and not Scars Guard, but he plays the nerd. Harry Mellish.

That sounds right. Yeah, Harry Mellish. He's fantastic. And he plays kind of like a British nerd who gets into a DOM sub-relationship with a hot biker played by Alexander Scarsgaard. And it's a movie that is very sexually explicit, but all the sex in it is not gratuitous. It's amazing the degree to which these sex scenes teach you the dynamics of this relationship and reveal character. It's very funny. It's very sweet. It's very human. And I think just a really beautiful relationship love story. And it's the director who I wasn't familiar with, he's made shorts, but this is his first feature. And I'm forgetting his name. He was fantastic. I think he's Harry Leighton. Is that his name? Yeah, that sounds right. It's a really talented guy because it's a really, really good movie.

I love that recommendation. I love that movie too. Ryan Johnson, nice to see you. Thank you for doing this. for having me, man. I appreciate it. Thank you to Ryan Johnson. Thank you to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week, we are drafting again. It's been three years. It's time for 2022 with CR. Let's go. See you then. You know,