The Big Picture - The Oscars Schedule Changes, and Andrew Garfield On ‘Under the Silver Lake’ | Interview

Episode Date: April 19, 2019

We go over the week in the movie world: Beyoncé’s documentary ‘Homecoming,’ the Oscars happening two weeks earlier, and the movies we’re anticipating will enter the Best Picture conversation (1:40). Then Andrew Garfield joins the show to talk about his new film ‘Under the Silver Lake,’ an L.A.-based noir film that is a change of pace from his career arc thus far (33:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Andrew Garfield Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration. It can be a little frustrating, especially if you're in a hurry or running late, to find yourself at a railway crossing, waiting for a train. And if the signals are going and the train's not even there yet, you can feel a bit tempted to try and sneak across the tracks. Well, don't. Ever. Trains are often going a lot faster than you expect them to be, and they can't stop. Even if the engineer hits the brakes right away, it can take a train over a mile to stop. By that time, what used to be your car is just a crushed hunk of metal, and what used to be you, well, better not think about that. The point is, you can't know how quickly the train will arrive. The train can't stop even if it sees you.

The result is a disaster. The signals are on, the train is on its way, and you just need to remember one thing. Stop. Trains can't. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with a bunch of LA residents. I have two guests on this week's episode of the show. In the back half of the show, I had a lovely conversation with the actor Andrew Garfield, who is the star of the new film Under the Silver Lake, a neo-noir satire of a kind that is a very interesting movie that has been slightly mischaracterized, I would say, in the press. And I had a really great time talking with him about that. He also ably identified exactly what my personality is in about nine words, and it hurt

me very much when he said so. And now, speaking of being hurt, I'm joined by Amanda Dobbins, another Angeleno who knows my personality and knows how to wound it. Amanda, hi. Hi. How are you? I really enjoyed that particular introduction. Thank you. Yeah, you're very welcome. Amanda, you and I are going to talk about some things that are happening in the world of movies, not quite under the Silver Lake, though maybe we'll hover above the Silver Lake.

Sure. What do you think? It's nice over there. Okay. Speaking of bodies of water, two movies out this week that are, I would say, very important and maybe among the most watched things that are released this week. And that's because those things are on streaming services, and they're both being released by major artists of our time.

They are, of course, Guava Island and Homecoming. Guava Island is Donald Glover and Hiro Murai and Stephen Glover's 55-minute long musical Journey that premiered at Coachella this weekend. Journey is a great word for it. Okay. The other, of course, is Homecoming, Beyonce's concert film from last year's epoch of a performance at Coachella. Yes. On your show Jam Session, you and Juliet Libman, I thought, very ably broke down the pluses and minuses of Homecoming. But you didn't talk necessarily about

sort of the business approach of Homecoming. And I think it's so funny that these two movies have come out in the same week because they do some things well, and I would say they do other things not as well. But they are using big time streaming platforms to super serve their fans. Yes. And it makes me think a lot about kind of what movies are in 2019. What do you make of the sort of two part approach? Of these two movies? Yeah.

So let's start there. Are they movies? I mean, you know, and that's a great question. And I do not mean to denigrate either of these pieces of art, which I quite enjoyed, both of them, for different reasons. And as movies, I mean, you know, this is the conversation that we have every single time. What is a movie? I think Beyonce's is a documentary. It is probably technically in the sense that it is two hours long, is an actual, I guess that's our definition of cinema. It's a feature length film. Exactly.

And on the flip side, it is made primarily of footage that was widely available in 2018, almost instantly. Fascinating. In part because Beyonce herself really made sure that her Coachella performance was live streamable and could reach a lot of people. That seems to be part of the ethos of that performance and how it was put together and is also one of the reasons that it's now on Netflix, I would say. Yeah, I think that makes sense. It's funny because if you watched it, I watched it when it happened last year. It's not significantly different. There are, of course, these interstitial documentary verite style moments that are sort of gauzy shot. And then there are these interstitials that identify like great African-American thinkers in recent and deep history of America. And they're like how those themes define Beyonce's art and her purs criticism. And she's actually kind of doing it after the Coachella performance last

year. And it was extremely well received. And everyone on the internet kind of lost their mind. And there was a lot of writing and criticism written about what it meant. Much of it very good. And so she essentially embedded all that into the documentary itself. That's interesting. As like a self-reflexive analysis of something she'd already done. Yes. And that drives some people insane. On Jam Session, we talked about my co-host, Julia Lippman. It drives her insane because it is like the mythologizing of Beyonce and she is her own myth maker. And that can be frustrating because she is just also a person who makes some good things and some bad things. And especially the culture around her

that springs up, it often feels like you can't criticize it. And maybe you can't say like homecoming is boring, which we can talk about that. And on this podcast, you can say homecoming is boring if you believe it. I don't think it's boring. I think it's long. I think it's very long. Sure. And that's okay. I'm a big fan of long things. I don't hold that against it particularly. I thought you guys had a very interesting conversation and I don't want to repeat that conversation in any meaningful way. But one thing that you pointed out is that this in some ways looks a little bit like The Last Waltz. And, you know, I felt very attacked when I heard you talking about The Last Waltz. Can I just share? I mean, it's just The Last Waltz is a movie that

my college boyfriend sat me down and made me watch. And was like, this is the most important thing that you'll ever see. And I was so bored. And I feel like there could also be a lot of people who sat down and watched this and were like, okay, fine. It's a Beyonce concert that I've already seen. And I don't really care about it. Yeah. And I think also The Last Waltz, for those of you who don't know, is Martin Scorsese's documentary about the final performance of the band, The Band. And it's a star-studded performance. Bob Dylan appears, and Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell, and Van Morrison, da-da-da-da-da. It's a celebration, I think, on Thanksgiving night.

I think it's a great movie, but I don't necessarily think it's a great movie particularly because of the performances. I think Homecoming is great particularly because of the performance. There is the person who is at the center of the movie is just a literally a once in a lifetime phenomenon artist who is able to do something that no one else can do. The other filmmaking aspects of it left me a little wanting or a little confused. And I think part of that is because of what you guys discussed, which is it's not just that Beyonce is her own myth maker. It's that she's the only one who controls her narrative.

She doesn't give interviews. You know, she's very smart, but she's very guarded in the way that she presents all of her information. And sometimes she can be very revealing. There are moments in this movie that are very revealing about her personal life, about her weight, about her relationship to her husband. They're fascinating, but it's all driven by her. It's directed and executive produced by Beyonce. Yes. Yeah, which is not a bad thing, but it causes, I think, some intellectual complication for people because they're kind of like what happened to objectivity with art.

And that doesn't exist really, but people are always in pursuit of that and they're always suspicious of it. It's self-propaganda, which is an ungenerous thing to say, but that is kind of just the flip side of myth-making. And when she is doing all of it and just has a monopoly on her own image and storytelling, it can feel like you're just being spoon-fed the propaganda. And so I understand the resistance. I think on the flip side, she's so singularly talented at putting together, not just as a performer, but the shows and the music and, you know, Lemonade, the film. She has a really clear vision and she is a storyteller in a lot of ways. I think she's not really in like actual words. But in every other way, she's so talented at creating those myths. And I think that Beyonce would not be Beyonce without the

level of control and perfectionism that she brings to all aspects of what she does and to how she's presented to the world. So I am willing to accept it. I just think it's so interesting the way that she does these things and how she gets away with it. And it's interesting to see it all like in a film for two hours. It is also the only opportunity you get to do it. So to me, that's appealing. And I think you were right when you and Juliette spoke about it, to compare her to other control freak, egomaniac filmmakers. You know, like most men who do this are very similar in that way. They're just not also incredible dancers and singers and songwriters.

But one of the things that I think was left unsaid, though I'm sure you know it, is that one thing that directors do is they pick the people that they collaborate with. They say that this should be the cinematographer. This should be the actor. This should be the studio I work for. And Beyonce is doing all that stuff too.

She's picking her choreographer. She's picking the costume designer for all of the studio I work for. And Beyonce is doing all that stuff too. She's picking her choreographer. She's picking the costume designer for all of the costumes during the performance. She's picking the streaming platform where Homecoming will premiere, which is consequential because if you give it to Netflix, it's going to go into more homes than almost anywhere else. Conversely, I wonder if you think Guava Island is an act of self-propaganda, which is, you know, a little different. It's a narrative story in a sense. I mean, yes, in a sense, if only because it's a movie starring Donald Glover and Rihanna and Rihanna does not sing in the movie. And like, it's a movie where Rihanna is in it and there's music and the film is not about Rihanna. So, yes, I do think that there is some elements of the Donald Glover myth and the Childish Gambino myth. And their whole collective, Donald Glover and Hiro Murai and Stephen Glover, they clearly have a tone and a view of the world and a view of the way they would like to do things.

And this is definitely a product of that and also a possibly self-indulgent version of that yeah that crossed my mind a couple of times i i'm curious uh this is the not super important to the conversation about guava island but i noticed that donald glover is emulating some of the same dance moves that he had in this is america and it makes me think that he only has like two dance moves you think that's true yeah i thought that was really interesting as well because and you also first see them when they he does like a interpolation of the this is america video and it's not the same as the video but it's in a similar warehouse structure he's doing the dance moves as you're watching it you don't know whether like all of the extremely violent stuff from the

video is about to break out but it certainly seems seems possible. And it does later in the film. Yes. So I was like, oh, okay, so he's just kind of doing This Is America. And then there is the summertime magic scene, which is, I think, the really three delightful magical minutes of the movie, even though, again, Rihanna is not allowed to sing. She gets to gaze longingly at Childish Gambino. Well, and there you go. There's your answer. But it is when he broke out the same moves. At first I was like, you know, so am I, is this subversive? Am I not supposed to be investing in this emotionally?

Or is this just the only way that he can dance? I think that's the answer. I think that's it. I was so struck by that when I was watching it. And I had read a little bit about the movie before I watched it. And so I was cued up for that scene. I was like, okay, well, this would be very charming. And he's on the beach and he's serenading her with the song.

And then he's making the This Is America face as he like bobs his head back and forth. And I was like, oh, wow, he's only got so many arrows in his quiver. Yeah. Which is okay. Yeah. I am confused about what the strategic purpose of something like that is. And I realized that that makes me sound like a little bit of a wonk.

You mean Guava Island, the existence of this movie. Yeah, this movie premiering at Coachella, it being announced as an event, and then it appearing on Amazon Prime. With some fanfare, but also like a real lack of clarity about what it represents, how it fits into the childish Gambino mythology. Like with Homecoming, it's so clear. And there's something calming about that that clarity yes and i guava i feel like atlanta and the most recent child just can't be no record and this is america felt coherent and of a piece to me they felt like part of a mission guava island feels a little bit outside of the mission now Now, far be it for me

to dictate the artistic scope of Donald Glover's mind. I'm not here for that. I wouldn't know how to do it if I tried. It just feels outside a little bit of those other things to me somehow. I think it does a little bit, though. Some of that is, I think, just the execution, not even of the movie itself, but how it was released and when and timing. And, you know, there's Beyonce on Netflix, which is like the biggest name and the biggest name. And that's just cultural hegemony at its finest. Yes. And then- Two Godzillas come together to make love.

All respect to Donald Glover, who's a talented artist, and Amazon, which maybe not as much respect to Amazon. I don't know. As much respect as you have to give a giant corporate entity. I spend money there all the time. So do I. Anyway, it's kind of like the JV squad. And they're in sharp relief being released essentially side by side.

Right. So from Donald Glover's perspective, he is sometimes a musician. He's a filmmaker, a TV star, you know, all of these things, and he's headlining at Coachella, and then you just, now that's what you do if you're a pop star of a certain status, you also have some sort of visual element that you release along with your music project, and especially if you're interested in visual elements. So I kind of understand that. I think some of it is just like Coachella got dwarfed by everything else that was happening in the world last weekend. Amazon is not Netflix in terms of promo. Saturday night is not Wednesday in terms of release. Some of it is just it seems

smaller because of how it all went down. To me, that's my understanding of it. As a piece of art, it's of, maybe it's not of a universe, but it is of a style with Atlanta. It felt like I was immediately reminded of Teddy Perkins. And I don't think that it's as well-developed as Teddy Perkins or as good as Teddy Perkins, to be totally frank.

But I was like, okay, I'm just on a ride with you guys. And there are going to be some beautiful images and some weird, violent things are going to happen. And also there will be some surrealism and some jokes. And Donald Glover will come off like looking cool and important. And, you know, I don't actually mind spending 50 minutes in that universe. I think if it had been pitched at this level, but a feature length film, I would have been like, this is a failure as a movie. And I think as a TV show, I mean, it's not well baked enough to be a TV show. It's like they made like a web short, but like a really well funded, weird web short. And I don't mind that on its own terms I'm like okay cool it seems like

what you guys like to do in your free time I was really happy to see the sex pirate from Game of Thrones get some work that was nice to see him in a new context um let's awkwardly pivot to uh more behemoth talk you and I obviously in recent months we're hosting an Oscar show I suspect that Oscar show will be back in some ways it is back right now because we're going to talk about the Oscars. The Oscars are happening two weeks early next year, which is fantastic. It's great news. Isn't it great? The number of people who have remarked to me recently about the last two weeks of our Oscars podcast this year

and the despair and anger that were palpable in those two weeks. I got to thank everyone who listened. You know, I kind of don't really remember it at this point. We went on a journey. There was a lot of emotional bargaining. I think, as always, I talked myself into a lot of things that didn't come true because I am a fool. And also because you had two extra weeks to do it. And that's why. And I wonder if this year, that shortening of the schedule, the show happening, I believe at the end of

February now is when it's going to be airing as opposed to in March, if that will significantly change the way that the races run. I think it's February 9th. February 9th? Yeah. Phenomenal. It's great. It's the beginning of February.

That means that we launch the next season of the Oscar show in two weeks. Oh, wow. Okay. That's not true. Yes, I hope it changes it. I think it will. And there was a lot of talk in the immediate aftermath of the course of several award shows and critical awards and all of this stuff, the Sturm und Drang that led us to a kind of quiet madness a couple months back.

Right. And I actually don't know if that's true. I'm curious to find out if it means that something that came from Bleeker Street is not going to do as well as something that comes from 20th Century Fox because 20th Century Fox has the ability to just like blare their story. Yeah. I also think in recent years, it hasn't like those last two weeks aren't the crucial weeks. It's especially for any films. It's getting them out as quickly as possible.

And it's been movies that are released in October and November have more time. It's like the Christmas movies that have been suffering in recent years. And that's, you know, I suppose that they'll suffer even more, but like don't release your movie at Christmas if you want to win an Oscar. That's the thing. I mean, I remember specifically talking about this with Beale Street, where Beale Street was set to be released in November and then they changed the date and they pushed it to mid-December. And in an Oscar season that happens on February 9th,

if a movie comes out on December 14th, that movie's got seven weeks to campaign less. Yeah. And that's not a lot of time. And especially for a smaller film like that, I could see that being problematic. And I wonder if that means we'll start to see over the course of the next two months, stuff getting moved up. So let's talk about a couple of different movies here. Okay. That, you know, it's very hard to know

what some of the smaller films are. So the majority of what we'll talk about here are big tentpole-y prestige movies. Mm-hmm. I don't think any of these are going to move up, but they might.

A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood is a show that you and I have discussed a couple of times. This is Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers. Yeah. This is the all-time, like, this is going to the Oscars movie.

Yes. And if it doesn't go to the Oscars, you know what that means? Tom Hanks is over? No, it's fucking terrible. Oh, okay. I don't think it's going to be terrible. I was like,

I don't want Tom Hanks to be over. I mean, Tom Hanks might be over. I don't think he is, though. Tom Hanks was just there with a spy movie with Steven Spielberg a couple years ago.

That's true. He'll be back. You know, he is... Although he wasn't there with The Post, which was another movie that was Spielberg a couple years ago. He'll be back. Although he wasn't there with The Post, which was another movie that was released too late in the year.

But The Post was nominated. It was acknowledged. But he was not. No, he was not. I saw a little bit of behind-the-scenes footage from Cats, which is Universal's

adaptation of Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical at CinemaCon a couple weeks ago in Las Vegas. I haven't spoken too much about CinemaCon on this podcast, nor have I talked too much about Cats. I can't say I'm sold on what Cats is going to be. I really was confused.

Can I just say in your personal life, you've talked a lot about Cats. That's true. And I just... You know, there are some figures who appear in Cats that I'm not necessarily a big fan of. I've seen the musical. I'm not a fan of the musical. The decision to make the movie about humans portraying cats but that they're life-sized cats living in a giant world so the

sets are twice the size they're sort of triple size looks confounding to me it's a Tom Hooper movie I don't get Tom Hooper's movies at all um I just can't start giggling as soon as we start talking about cats yeah which is just... It's just ridiculous. I mean, The Ringer will be covering cats aggressively for the next six months. It comes out in December. They won't be moving that date up at all. But it's because that's the kind of movie that you kind of have to get out of the way of.

You know, that's going to be a cultural moment, even if it's absolutely atrocious. Yes. It's going to be a thing. But like, this is one of those movies where everyone would have pretended it's absolutely atrocious yes it's going to be a thing but like this is one of those movies where everyone would have pretended it's in the oscar conversation until it comes out and then we're like oh it's not in the oscar conversation anymore do we have to do that this year where we pretend stuff is in there like cats specifically i mean we did that it was the same feeling that we had with les mis the last big tom hooper musical. And... Yes, but can I just...

I can't believe I'm out here like splitting hairs about musicals, but Les Mis is a much better musical than Cats. I agree. You know what? Here's what Cats does. It cross-pollinates that sort of vibrant feeling that you get from watching a musical with weird like CGI green screen shit that people are gonna be like, well, that's a technical achievement too. that that's gonna happen refuse that that will

happen so if you think it's annoying when people are like Star Wars should be nominated for best picture I don't think that's annoying okay those are pretty good we're talking about freaking cats here it's it's cats it's like cats is coming Taylor Swift in a unitard like with a weird name no let's talk about a couple other movies that are going to be in the mix. I did talk on The Watch about Ford versus Ferrari. That was the best trailer I saw in Las Vegas. It's very exciting. It looks like a very exciting movie starring Matt Damon and Christian Bale

about the race to win Le Mans for the American carmaker Ford and all of his brilliant colleagues. Just looks like a jam in docudrama, all about high speed and the race in the middle of the 20th century to win. It's probably going to say a lot about the masculine ideal, but we'll save that for another podcast. That's fine, but it's also, if it's like a vague Oscar-baity historical drama, I'm in.

Christian Bale and Matt Damon talking to each other, it's a win. Yeah, that's great. That's a win. Down Abbey, your beloved Down Abbey. Yes. this is gonna be an Oscar movie uh I don't think so although I guess you never know it really did clean up at the Emmys people loved it I thought Down Abbey was a great TV show I don't and I also love a costume drama and they have certainly as a genre had a lot of success at the Oscars,

though not recently. So maybe, there's something about it transitioning from TV to movie that makes me think people will be snobby about it.

And it's more just like, the gang's back together, fun affair. I think that you're right, although you never can tell. If it's a week year, a movie like that, which is going to be

a crowd pleaser, you know, like that's the thing. I have been thinking about this a lot in the aftermath of the Green Book thing and just realizing like, man, people just want to be happy. That's true. I mean, Maggie Smith will certainly be nominated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think they're going to give her a lot to do? You think they're going to kill her? I hope not. Gosh, hold your tongue. Wouldn't that be crazy? Yeah. I mean, gosh, you can't. You need her at the very end so it doesn't

get too sentimental. What's her name? The Dowager Countess? Yes. Do you think that the Dowager Countess survived Thanos' finger snap? Okay, please keep it moving. Next, Fair and Balanced, which is Jay Roach's portrait of Fox News. Now, there's a show coming out a little later this year featuring Russell Crowe as Roger Ailes. That is not this. This is a different thing. And I'm curious to see how this movie is received because it feels a little bit like the Vice of 2019.

And it's also currently slated for late in December, which is also like Vice. And that doesn't, well, I don't know. In Vice's case, it worked out because it had a critical, I guess there were certain critical boosters as well as a critical backlash. That was a loud and noisy movie with a great trailer that a lot of people didn't see for a long time and so before the critical opinions came in it was already

certified by the Globes. And that works differently when your movie stars previous Oscar winners and is directed by the guy who made the big short. The calculations there are different. This movie is not centered on Ailes, who is played by John Lithgow. It's centered on the women whom Ailes allegedly assaulted or harassed.

Among them, Charlize Theron playing Megyn Kelly. Incredible. Some wild shit. Nicole Kidman playing Gretchen Carlson. Allison Janney playing Susan Estrich. Kate McKinnon's in this movie and Margot Robbie's in this movie.

Yeah, I mean... It's going to be heat. It's going to be hard for them to screw up this Oscar campaign. And Jay Roach, of course, has experience making movies like Game Change for HBO,

so he has done the political docudrama. And, you know, I think regardless of what you think of those movies ideologically, they're almost always entertaining, you know,

and he always gets good performances. His actors always win Emmys for those movies. I think of the entertaining. He always gets good performances. His actors always win Emmys for those movies. I think of the Sarah Palin-Julianne Moore thing. Yes. That was a really great performance in a fun, frivolous TV movie kind of way. A couple of other things.

We talked about The Goldfinch. I loved what I saw from The Goldfinch. How is your Goldfinch reading going? I would say not well. I started Erwin Winkler's memoir this week, The Legendary Hollywood Producer, and that has sidetracked me a little bit. Okay.

I'm about 100 pages into that. I'm probably about 88 pages into The Goldfinch. That's about 12 pages more than last time I asked. It's not great. I really recommend The Goldfinch. What a great film. I mean, movie. Perhaps a great film.

We shall see. What a great book and hopefully movie. Okay, TBD on all of that. Okay. The Irishman, Netflix. How much do you think we're going to... Okay, so our producer Bobby has clarified for us, I think effectively, that Cats is the new The Wife. Right?

So as we talk about Cats for the next nine to 12 months... Oh my gosh. We'll be talking about it with the same vigor and spirit as we discussed The Wife. Okay. For better and worse. Yeah. I think it will be a lot easier to see Cats than it was to see The Wife. However, The Irishman is the movie that has been looming over this Oscar race for what feels like five years. the Oscars this year when Netflix released its commercial with no footage

and just the Irishman coming this fall in theaters and on Netflix. So Bobby, intrepid producer that he is, has just clarified that perhaps the Irishman

is this year's A Star is Born for us. Wow. I'm not sure if you'll ever have the same feelings about a Martin Scorsese movie, especially one in which you've blasphemed

The Last Waltz as you would A Star Is Born. You had a very emotional reaction to that movie. That's true. I think it's possible for me to feel that way about a Martin Scorsese movie.

I don't know about this one. Isn't this one like five hours long? I can't say. Aren't those the rumors? I don't know very much about it. Yeah. It's about a man, I guess, retracing his steps

and imagining whether or not he was a participant in the assassination of Jimmy Hoffa. That's like as much as we know about it. There's a couple of other Netflix movies coming up, which is interesting because, of course, Netflix has been at the center of a lot of debate around the Oscars and whether they're able to participate. Of course, Netflix joined the MPAA this year. Netflix, I think, is going to be able to participate in the Oscars. It was interesting

to watch them try to levy the Antitrust Act against the other studios by trying to block them out of the Oscars, which is just a made-up award show.

But nevertheless, the other ones are The Last Thing You Wanted, which is Dee Rees' adaptation of a Joan. Is it a Joan Didion novel or a memoir? I actually don't know.

It's a novel. A novel. Yeah. And The Laundromat, which is Steven Soderbergh's much-anticipated Panama Papers docudrama. So those are exciting movies. I'm certainly looking forward to them. Do you think we'll see them on big screens? That's such a great question.

I'd like to. You know, I think— The Irishman for sure. The Irishman for sure. And I think you're right that The Last Thing He Want in the laundromat could be sort of talky people in rooms. I mean, not people totally in rooms, but they are more just adult dramas that you can watch at home and that are fun to watch at home. I still think, I mean, we'll have to be able to see them in theaters if they want to win Oscars. Yeah, they'll go into a small number of theaters, I suppose.

But I'm not sure what they're going to do in terms of qualifying. If they ever put anything on more than 2,000 screens, that would be a huge, huge effort on their part. I assume the Irishman has something contractually that says they'll do that. Yes. The others, I'm not so sure. I'm fascinated to find out. Let's go quickly through a handful more. Okay.

Little women we've discussed on this show. This is Greta Gerwig's follow-up to Lady Bird. This is the most and you've ever been for anything in your life. I'm really excited. Both because Greta Gerwig is extremely important to me. I mean, this cast, Saoirse Ronan, Florence Pugh, Timothy Chalamet. I, you know. Where are you at on Florence Pugh and Zachothee Chalamet. I, you know. Where are you at on Florence Pugh and Zach Brown?

Meryl Streep and Laura Dern. Okay. I think that Florence Pugh should let her light shine in every way that she wants to. That's what makes her a remarkable actress. Who am I to say anything else? Have you seen the Florence Pugh vehicle fighting with my family?

No, I haven't. Okay, maybe one day. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is coming out on my birthday this summer, and that will be a grand day for me because I love Quentin Tarantino movies. I'm very curious to see how it is received. Of course, I'm interested to see what it is, but its reception will be complex. And I don't know if there's much more we can say about that, though we will talk about it a lot for the rest of the year, I'm sure.

We will certainly be talking about it. The report debuted at Sundance. We talked about that a little bit. That is the Adam Driver starring CIA docudrama written and directed by Scott Z. Burns, one of the great screenwriters in Hollywood right now, also starring Annette Bening as Dianne Feinstein. We've seen a little movie called Us. You think Us is going to make it to the Oscars? That's such a great question. Probably yes, because A, it made money and the Oscars just really like to attach themselves to things that succeed. They just really like to and they will also. Diminishing returns is unfair. I think you and I both really liked us and thought it was very interesting and it was obviously extremely successful, but it's not the sensation that Get Out was. Or not yet, anyway. We're still kind of early in the season.

And the Oscars just love to reward the lesser of things as well. So, you know what I mean? This is a good point. Makeup award. Exactly. And it's not, I mean, Get Out was nominated and Jordan Peele did win for the screenplay. But I do think in the kind of makeup slash anointing successful director vibe, it will be around. I agree with you. That's an interesting way to think about it.

There could be some makeup voting going on here, even though I think a lot of people think Get Out is the extraordinary debut and Us is the you had six months to make your second album kind of film. You and I both really liked it and appreciate it but it's been interesting just having conversations

with people in the industry because we're now in the place where people are no longer excited to say I'm so proud of Jordan Peele it's amazing what he accomplished now they want to undermine his success

because he is so closely successful this is a bad town. Couple more that I have not shared with you ahead of time. Avengers Endgame. What do you think?

So how are you feeling right now? It's out very soon. I'm seeing it on Tuesday. I am looking forward to it. Okay. I am excited that it is three hours

and two minutes. I am a fan of these films. I meant more like emotionally. How are you preparing for the various superheroes and the, you know, the possible deaths

and all of that. I don't care about any of that stuff. Okay. That's actually not interesting to me at all, to be honest. We'll be podcasting

about it for sure, but because it has interesting business implications and career arc implications and it's fun to talk about that stuff, but if Steve Rogers is felled by Thanos,

like, I really don't care can I say something interesting sure I was thinking the other day I was like oh that'll be sad when he dies wow so you've got more more skin in the game than I do yeah I was just like oh wow it'll be sad if Captain America dies I'll be like oh that's too bad okay well stay tuned on that and what about um what about the rise of Skywalker Star Wars episode 9 IX? Let's do it. I'm ready. I feel like it's going to get nominated. I tweeted that, and I hate when people say I tweeted that, but I said right now, I tweeted that.

And I think it's going to happen because I think that they're not going to make Star Wars movies for a few years after this, and they're going to want to acknowledge its achievement in reviving super-duper Big Tent box office. What do you think? That seems plausible to me. I watched it and it just seemed absolutely possible that it would be nominated. And I think that I know there are a lot of fans who feel a certain way about certain aspects of this franchise,

like within the Star Wars community. But otherwise they're really well liked and people think that they look good and everyone likes Rey, the character. And it just seems, it doesn't seem difficult. And it seems like the Academy never does the smart thing, but it's such an easy way for them to get viewers and to also reward something that actually matters.

I will say I have often thought of you as the Ray of this podcast and me as the Kylo. Okay, I accept that. Okay. Amanda, thanks for popping by to talk about all things Oscars and movies otherwise. Thanks again to Amanda Dobbins from one Leo to another. Here is my conversation with the actor, Andrew Garfield. I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew Garfield, actor and star of Under the Silver Lake. Andrew, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me.

Andrew, you walked in and you noted that there is a particular smell at our office, and it's not a bad thing. It's not the skunk smell that your character features in Under the Silver Lake. It's something about this city and this place that we're recording in right now. What does LA mean to you, and what is that smell you were referring to? It's a really nice smell, even though it might just be like a dank carpet smell. It's still, it's incredibly nostalgic. And I don't know that it's like a warm blanket. LA is a, I find LA a very strange place. I was born here. Maybe that's why. But I moved away

when I was very young. And then I came back when I started When I made my first film Which I have a feeling I may have shot on this particular studio The Sunset and Gower Studios here So maybe there's a feeling of nostalgia there When is this? About how old were you? I was 24 I want to say 23

Okay Probably 23, 24 And I was and I was while I was auditioning for that film I was staying on my then manager's assistant's couch with his heavy breathing pitbull

and it was a leather couch so my skin would be stuck to it by the time I woke up every morning but it was one of the great, and I would walk down to the California Chicken Cafe on the corner of, I think it was Melrose and something else. And it was kind of heavenly. It was to be totally alien to a city where I'm from,

but I think that's probably the majority of people's experience. I'm sure that's Brian Grazer's experience as much as it was mine. I think LA is this strangely forbidding place, which ties into, I think, this film, this weird, odd-shaped, surrealist kind of trip of a film that David Robert Mitchell made. It's very easy to feel on the outside of this city because it seems like everyone's on the inside but you. But I think the strange part of that is that everyone feels they're on the outside. So I think my relationship, you know, it's so interesting. I've been thinking a lot about tribes and about belonging and about how do we find our, how do we remember our sense of

belonging on this earth? And I think LA is such a specifically tricky place to do that in terms of the ups and downs of one's status and the career. And also there's so much lying and posturing that's going on, like a Fendi handbag, but not being able to pay your rent or an incredibly high-pric without, without having any job, but like 18 different like bank loans and 18 different banks. Like it's such an interesting, I don't know, it's such an interesting city. And, but yeah, the feeling of, of the feeling of forbid, forbiddance and foreboding that the city has, I think is what David Robert Mitchell, the director of this film, Under the Silver Lake really captures,

which I really like. It's really interesting because it is a town full of performers. So I feel like people are performing at all times. When you first came here, did you, essentially, was your plan to kind of conquer an industry? Were you thinking like,

did you want to return because this is where you were born and there was some sort of, something mythological about that? That's interesting. I think it's twofold. There's my personal relationship to what I was doing, but there's also my father's relationship.

So my personal relationship was I was a young actor who had just come out of his training in London drama school and had done theater and was feeling very, very encouraged that he was just getting employment, any kind of employment. Like I was just happy to be in work. I was happy being, being paid for pretending to be people. That was enough. That was plenty. And then, um, I did a screen test in London for a film that never got made, which was a, an adaptation of the, um, Michael Chabon book,

The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay. I always wanted to see this movie. You did a screen test for it? So this is the thing. I was doing a play at the National Theater, and Stephen Daldry's assistant had seen the play and had told Stephen, there's this kid, and you might want to have a look at him for this.

And then Stephen came along and saw me, and then he called Scott Rudin, and he he was he's he called Scott Rudin and he said there's this kid and you might want to see him in this because they were doing this this wild and screen test for this and I so I so then I read the book I was sent the book and I just fell in love with it such a fantastic book yeah it remains one of my favorite books and I was brought in to this other what it was like it was like the inner sanctum of you know the willie wonka and the chocolate factory kind of thing we were we were at pinewood i believe or shepardton one of the two and they they had spent a stupid amount of money

on uh on sets and they brought in these two amazing british actors claire higgins and i forget the other the other young lady's name i forget now it was 10 years ago at this point but um and and they i think was it was it roger deacons they had doing dping so it was someone so daldry and deacons were going to make cavalier it was someone of that ilk okay i can't recall if it was actually deacons but it was it was a it was someone of that caliber and and then you know there's like i walked past one of the dressing rooms and Ryan Gosling is taking a nap or meditating or something and I'm like well at this point I didn't know who Ryan was in retrospect of course you know but then I so there were three of us like auditioning for Sam and and three of us auditioning for Joseph

and it was um myself uh Jason Schwartzman I think Jamie Bell, Toby McGuire, I believe, and then Ryan Gosling. Maybe Toby was auditioning for Joseph, or maybe Toby didn't have to audition for Joseph. You're all there together, knowing that you're all screen testing for this film. Yeah, and Cillian Murphy and Ben Whishaw. I think I said Ben Whishaw. And we were just put in all these different combinations

with film cameras. And I remember doing a scene with Ryan and going, oh, fuck, that's what screen acting is. Like I had never done... So you hadn't done Boye or anything? No, no, no. I had done like a BBC comedy pilot, which didn't go well. But I was a theater actor, and I had never done any real camera work.

So I was watching what Ryan was doing in the spontaneity and the pure presence and the lived-in fabric of what he was doing. I thought, oh, wow, I could just feel it. And then suddenly I was i i was i was i was able to go on a ride with another actor where i'd never really felt permission to do that before but really let go and see where a scene goes um but it was just the most incredible it was two days it was two days of kind of like film school really uh and anyway that switched you on to say i want to go to Hollywood no no no

well no not really because I think still in my imagination films were a fantasy making a movie would have been just a childhood fantasy

where I would fantasize making Teen Wolf 3 after the Jason Bateman one didn't go as well as planned but actually in fact they were just waiting for the next

Michael J. Fox, which happened to be a British boy from Surrey. That's what you aspired to. Oh, yeah, that was it. It was Teen Wolf 3, but then, you know, or some big two, anything Michael J. Fox or Tom Hanks related

was kind of my dream. Or like White Man Can't Jump, the sequel to that, where White Man Still Can't Jump, that kind of thing. But just set in England. Yeah, or like white men can't jump the, the, the, the sequel to that where white men still can't jump that kind of like, but just said in England, yeah, in England, in the, in the basketball culture, the subterranean basketball culture of London, which doesn't really exist. Um, uh, just playing in Finsbury park. Um, but, um, so, so, so then I was so no, no, no. I was literally like, oh, this is possible. And, uh, and then you're at the mercy of so many other factors, but I was so, no, no, no. I was literally like, oh, this is possible. And then you're at the mercy of so many other factors.

But I was in the middle of this play still, but then what happened from that was the film didn't get made, but A.V. Kaufman, this amazing casting director, saw the screen tests because she was the casting director on Cavalier and Clay that was hired. And A.V. sent, I think, a screen test to Redford, to Robert Redford, who was casting a film that he was directing and starring called Lions for Lambs. And they flew me out to screen test.

And I was staying at the Oakwood Apartments. And it was... You were living the cliche dream. Yep, pretty much. Amazing. Pretty much. And then the smell, this dank carpet smell came full circle. And I thought, well, this is home.

This could be some kind of home for me. And the remarkable thing of getting cast in that film. And I remember I was with my manager's assistant, Alan. And he was like, I'm taking you out tonight. It's the Golden Globes, whatever, we're going to go out. And I was like, okay, I don't have a suit. He was like, I don't know, go to the Beverly Center, go to H&M. And I'm like, okay, great, I'm going to go to H&M.

So I'm waiting to hear if I've got this part or not, and it's been a few weeks, and you're kind of starting to lose a little bit of hope. And I remember I was in the Beverly Center a little bit despondent trying on an ill fitting suit in H&M that I could just about afford to to buy and maybe take back if I didn't stay in it and uh and I got a call from uh I saw I saw see like my I saw my manager and my agent calling me and I I answered it I was like I you know I was like don't get don't get your hopes up it could be anything could you be them going hey just so you know you're an actor still and we're still your representatives bye-bye it could have been that um you know like you know like managers I want to do just to remind you that they uh I exist um but uh but in fact it was them going uh

can you talk and they told me that i had the thing so i felt very liberal with the suit i bought at h&m and i i kind of went 100 yeah well the extra 20 um and i had this kind of remarkable fun night with a with a pal who was also in town eddie red main and we we went out and and we were kind of flies on the wall in this new world and we were just kind of observing and watching. And he had made a couple of things previous to me, so he was kind of introducing me to everyone and kind of going, oh, Andrew just got this amazing job with Robert Redford and Tom Cruise and Meryl Streep

until Natalie Portman came along and he did not introduce me to Natalie Portman. What was that about? It was cold, man. He was just trying to block you out. It was a cold introduce me to Natalie Portman. What's that about? It was cold, man. He was just trying to block you out. It was a cold move because it was Portman and he didn't want anyone to steal his thunder. And now you guys are Oscar nominees 10 years later. It's a little ridiculous. It's a sweet thing, but yeah.

So did you live here for a long period of time then? Since then, I've kind of been back and forth. I've kind of lived here on and off. Um, and my experience really depends on whether I'm working or not and what I'm working on. If I'm, if I'm working on something here that I love, it's, you know, I, it's, I love being in the city so much because it's got everything in the state has everything like California, generally Northern California is my favorite, maybe, maybe my favorite place in the world that I've ever been to. Like San Francisco or out beyond that? Like Big Sur

and Mendocino and into Yosemite and, you know, it went, You look like you're ready to conquer Yosemite right now. In that kind of

cliche hipster way. No, no, it's great. You mentioned Redford and you mentioned David Robert Mitchell, obviously the director of the new movie. I'm fascinated by the way

you pick films because it seems like you're toggling between legend filmmakers who you want to work with and people who have made one or two films that are exciting and small and are going to the next level. Is that accurate? I mean, sure. I mean, that's a one interpretation. I don't know whether I think it through that objectively. I think it's more what I'm drawn to in any given moment. And I see it as like a seasonal thing. After doing Spider-Man, I was really intent on...

And actually after doing 99 Homes with Ramin, that was a really great... And I did Death of a Salesman as a, as a play in between the two Spider-Man films that those two things were, you know, 99 homes and death of a salesman were these, were this great antidote for, um, this, this Bay, be a moth kind of a franchise. Um, and it kind of reconnected me with some, I don't know, some, uh, some deeper thing that I was, that I, that I felt disconnected from for a while during the Spider-Man stuff.

So then after that, I said to myself, I want to work in the scope of a Spider-Man film, but with the soul of one of those smaller films. And also I kind of made a list. I made a list of directors that I was going to wait for. And, you know, I mean, Mel and Scorsese were on those lists, on that list. So do you contact them and say if you ever are doing anything or you're just kind of waiting to hear if they're developing something?

I haven't had the courage to do that. And I think that's ridiculous. Like I think, you know, who doesn't like getting a fan letter, whether, you know, from someone else in the industry. Like I think I'm realizing that how silly to not do that. You know, I have so many people that I am a fan of and I'm just, I think I'm overly English and therefore overly cautious about bothering people. And I think, well, I'm not going to be spoken, I'm not going to speak unless spoken to, which needs to change. I need to get in touch with my American side a little bit more with that in that regard maybe um so so so no with

those two it just happened to they just happened to be to be being made and i and i and i was i just happened to be interested in in i was kind of seasonally i suppose for myself being drawn to into a more spiritual conversation, like I was more curious about my own spirituality and the spirituality of being human and the kind of the sanctity of the human spirit and being more than just a body like that, that was piquing my curiosity just personally. And then these two things come along and I'm just dying to do both of them with both of those filmmakers. And it's just I can't explain it any, any, any better than that. And, and, and, and then after that, I felt like I had, um, I had gone through my martyrdom, uh, uh, complex, um, silence. We'll do that too.

Yeah. Combined with the play that I recently finished, which is angels in America, which is eight hours of pure martyrdom, um, pure martyrdom against the character's will. He's being martyred against his will. Why were you drawn to those figures and why were you drawn to those experiences?

Because it seems genuinely grueling. Yeah, grueling and extreme. Angels in America was definitely the icing on top of the martyrdom cake in the sense that it was impossible

and every day it was impossible. And you lit even harder even harder than the Scorsese picture because you know it was every day and you had to live the journey as best you could every day because there was a fresh set of souls in the audience that were wanting to be fed by this seminal piece of work and you you had to fill it up. And so why I was drawn to that and to those things, I don't know. In the same way, I think Free Solo was my favorite film

of the last however many years, really. There's something about being here for me, being alive, where I want, I don't know. I don't think it's sadomasochistic. I think it's i i'm just very curious about the human potential human you know the human potential and and uh where we break i i and and what we can handle and how we get bigger how how does an individual get bigger and i think the only way you get bigger is by um is by breaking the shell that you're currently in.

And I don't know. And I think it comes from a genuine lust for life and a wanting to be in life fully. There's also some pride in it, I'm sure. There's also, I was raised by a swimming coach father who never ever settled for anything. Even a gold medal was celebrated briefly, and then you kind of go back to the tape, and you go, so where did you go wrong? And I'm very grateful for that now, but it took me a while to be grateful for that.

That's fascinating, and it's an interesting entryway into Under the Silver Lake, which I think is grueling in a little bit of a different way. And I'm curious about what brought you to that character, because it's so significantly different and feels like such a significant reaction to the previous two big parts. Yeah, I like that.

I think that's true. I think I felt like I had done enough for the time being. And my psyche was craving some balance. I needed to access some more ordinariness, some more darkness some more um uh of the base and material of what it is to be a human being you were so decent in those in those films in that play yeah and longing for decency like actively decent yeah yeah yeah whereas in this you know like my one of my favorite scenes and another favorite moment is there's a scene where I'm not going to give too much away, but there's a scene where I get to beat up a bunch of kids who are very, very weak compared to me.

Half my size, half my age. And it was cathartic. It was very exciting to be able to do that. And there's another moment which I won't give away. It doesn't really matter, but there's another moment which I won't give a, you know, it doesn't really matter, but there's a moment where I smell a vibrator. And that felt very important to do after, you know, in a very creepy way,

in a very creepy human base, animal, shameful, but why shameful way? It's like we, you know, to access that animal part of myself and of, of all of us, you know, it feels important to, to, to stay balanced. Otherwise you, you know, you're, you're, you're exiling aspects of yourself that will later become very dangerous if they're suppressed too much or kept in there, kept in the closet or in the, or in the basement as it were. Um, so, um, so yeah. So yeah, I think I was really drawn to this film because I was like, oh, that's going to be a great break for my psyche

and I'm going to get to access a part of myself that has been long wanting a bit more wildness, that's been wanting to rattle the cage and get out and have a little roam around. And it just so happened that this script was so weird and I loved it so much and it reminded me of The Goonies, which is one of my favorite films. It was like a grown-up regressed version of The Goonies,

of like a one-man Goonies. Yeah, a quest movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But deeply sad that this guy is still trying to look for the buried treasure at the age of however old he is in his mid-30s. But there was something so opposite. I think you're right. There was something very, very opposite that I wanted to explore.

The movie is highly referential and illusory to a lot of things. I'm curious how much of that was on the page. How much are you and David talking about, well, this is a reference to this or this is that, just in the construction of the movie? Well, everything's kind of on the page in very vivid detail. Like he's, David is so specific in what he wants to create, the mood he wants to create and the subtle, sometimes not so subtle references that he wants to allude to. So yeah, and I loved it for that. It was very knowingly meta. And I thought that was really, I don't know, I just found it I, and I, I loved it for that. It was very knowingly meta and I thought that was

really, I don't know. I just found it delightful. Weirdly. I just found it incredibly like poppy and dark and, uh, yeah, I, I, I was just really just, I don't know, like sensually drawn to it. Maybe like, you know, like there was, there's a sensuality to it that I like, and there's again, a nostalgic feeling to it that I really like. And I like that it's this strangely heightened surreal world. And, you know, and as a performer, that was really interesting to me as well because I've been so focused on naturalism for so long. And it was fun to feel a bit freer. I think your part in the movie is fascinating because there's an expectation that some people have if they're familiar with your work, and you're

subverting it in a lot of ways in this movie. And I'm curious about how you feel about the way that the movie is received, because in a lot of ways it seems very, very, very smart about this kind of movie, and quite making commentary about this kind of movie, but it has not always been received that way. So, do you feel

like when you're participating in a film like this that has a clear point of view that you have to kind of like correct the record about things that are misunderstood if they even are understood I suppose

I don't know that's not for me that's more for David I know that David has been really happy with a lot of the response and like I think he's ultimately

really happy that people are having strong feelings you know whether they love it or are kind of repelled by it. I think the thing that hurts him personally, and he said this in interviews, so I'm not spoiling anything for him, he's disappointed and hurt that certain people feel like it's perpetuating the misogyny of Hollywood.

Because that's definitely not who he is. And it's definitely not his intention. Definitely seems like it's particularly satirizing that. Skewering it. Yeah. And shining a light on it. Yeah. And presenting a character and a city.

Well, first of all, a city that is inherently misogynistic and patriarchal as as we know an industry that is uh that is all those things and then a young man who considers himself a travis bickle wanting to wipe the scum off the streets and you know protect the integrity of the feminine but in fact has been brainwashed and manipulated and uh is is himself perpetuating that misogyny simultaneously maybe without knowing maybe with knowing um hence the smelling of the vibrator you know that those moments Those moments are uncomfortable. And I wouldn't have been interested in playing the part if he was any more Travis Bickle, if he was any purer than he is on the page. He's not pure.

He's absolutely a victim of the culture and perpetuating the culture. And I find that feels very, very clear to me. And I think the film is both trying to create compassion for him, but also mocking him. And that's my understanding of David's intention. So a lot of times, if I talk to a filmmaker or an actor about a villain in a film or an evil historical figure that they're portraying, they'll talk about trying to find kind of empathy and not villainize that person so that they can be in that part every day and do that work.

This is a little different in that I think Sam is just kind of a shithead. He's not like evil. He's just, like you said, he's kind of a victim of the circumstances, his consumptive patterns as a human being. Sure. Did you have like a similar feeling where you had to find ways to relate to him? Because I suspect like you and I, he has a lot of the same cultural references. He has a lot of the same interests.

Yeah. But how they are transmitted to the world is like a little ugly sometimes. Yeah. Well, I think that, I think I love that. And I think the, the difference between me and him me and him but but but where I can relate in in uh in small ways like we've all been rejected at some point we've all experienced periods of again what I was talking about being in LA feeling like uh being forbidden from the set from the epicenter of things being kept out being not allowed in the club um and I think uh what I

where I found compassion for him very very easily was that sense of this is someone who's never ever been given what he thought he was entitled to and yes that entitlement is something that we skewer as well in the film but i still have compassion for it because who because i think that's a universal thing feeling like you're on the outside of things feeling like no matter what you do you're banging your head against a brick wall against this insurmountable um kind of uh system and uh kind of force field that seems to be keeping you from what is rightfully yours and then of course that raises the question of what is rightfully yours what is rightfully ours as human beings? But that was how I have compassion for his brutality, his ugliness.

But again, using those words feels unfair as someone who's playing him. He's just someone who is raging on the inside and is in such agony and longing for connection and for belonging and to be welcomed and to be seen and to have an opportunity to be in the world in a meaningful way. And because he's been rejected, it seems, from my understanding, from my prep for the film, it was like, I imagine he's tried going all the conventional routes to create a life worth living and to create a life that he'd be proud of.

And it feels like every single door saying there's no room at the inn. So what choice do you have after that, but to check out, become slightly deluded or move back home to Montana or Wisconsin or, you know, away from the land of dreams. So for me, that's where the compassion is very easy for me to feel for Sam. I'm very curious about how you interact with the mythology of a movie like this, because I was watching the movie for a second time with my wife last night. And right at the very beginning, once you start seeing codes and symbols, she was like, is this the kind of movie that at the end of it is like not going to make any sense? And I was like, well, to answer that question would complicate the viewing of the movie.

So I didn't say anything. But, you know, in many ways, it seems like you guys are commenting on the notion of code breaking and the quest to do so and satirizing in some ways. And in other ways, there will be an entire population of people that will search for answers in this movie. And I feel like it's already started to happen. And I wonder if you guys anticipated that, you and David, when you were talking about the movie. And also how you respond to it when a stranger confronts you in a coffee shop and says, like, I know what the lion symbol means, man. I think that's more, David would be able to speak to that much better than I will. But his response, I'm pretty sure, would be, to speak to that much better than I will, but his response I am pretty sure would be,

I don't know what you're talking about. He likes being the architect, watching the mice scurry around. I personally think it's awesome that someone would have that level of kind of geekdom and about putting all of these codes within a film about codes knowing that a bunch of like people of our generation mostly who are into that will go out and find like like like use use their time to try and decode it because it's joyful it's like it's such a joyful anyone anyone who was brought up with those kinds of video games back back you know in in that period of time it's like it's it's not just nostalgia it's like you're being occupied with something that feels so um purposeful and fun and i remember that what

was that app that was geo geo um oh god there was like a there was like a there was like a uh uh there was a time where that there was an app where you could do like a live treasure hunt then it was constantly going on it was like it's a geo i forget what the name of the app was but basically it's like people would leave things all over the world and like no matter where you were in the world you can go on the app and go and like follow these clues to lead to this one place where something is buried um geomapping or something like that and i and i remember at the time i was like i was saying to my girlfriend girlfriend i was like we should do this and uh but because it was so i don't know like i i i think we are all still craving mystery we are all craving to be like the game is one of my favorite, like modern films of all time that deals with this issue.

The Fincher movie. Yeah. And, you know, the rise of immersive theater, like all the punch drunk theater company, if anyone doesn't know it, punch drunk theater company is this amazing immersive theater company that have really brought back this idea of immersive theater where you are the master of the story. So you can follow a character around this big, amazingly set decorated warehouse space, whether it's an adaptation of Macbeth or adaptation of Sunset Boulevard or anything like that. Like they have created these immersive experiences for people where you feel viscerally involved in decoding some mystery. I think people probably as a response to technology and the kind of the dulling nature of technology, are being kind of like, again, the balancing of the psyche.

We're all being kind of brought back into something that is a bit more visceral, a bit more tactile and more connected and more active. You're a more active participant. Would you be happy if this went on to become a kind of cult classic? Oh, yeah, I think that would be awesome. And I think, you know, as you say, there's a group of people that really get it. And I think that they will make it that, I believe so. And, you know, just for David, you know, I think he's such a brilliant filmmaker. And he's,

what I admire so much about him is he absolutely made the film he wanted to make that's a rare thing when you know you have lots of different voices around you and uh inevitably with any film you know lots of people saying their opinions and then you have someone in the center just going hmm i just want to make this and i and i i have to trust myself as an artist and i have to not lose my ability to make the art that I want to make. I find that so inspiring. How do you artistically calculate where to take your career from here? Because you've done almost every kind of movie in a way. You know, you've done blockbusters.

You've done very small personal pieces. You've done kind of historical work with great filmmakers. You know, is there a calculus for you? Do you have a checklist of the kinds of films you want to make for the rest of your life do i do i i'll give you an honest answer to that for the first time in this oh wow i'm glad i could break the pain there yeah um this is gonna be my first honest answer throughout this conversation um no like i don't know i honestly don't know in but because and again like i I was saying to you earlier, like I've been on a bit of a sabbatical having finished Angels in America because, well, mostly out of necessity because I was very tired. But also out of an existential questioning of, well, where to? You know, I don't know where to next. I'm excited to find out um but i feel like a site you know i think things happen in seven year cycles that's my understanding from my own life and people around me like there's like a there's a kind of

a rebirth and a death cycle every kind of seven years if you're if you're living as consciously as possible that's my understanding i think that's an old idea it's a very ancient idea so seven years ago you were spider-man and on stage with philip seymour hoffman yeah yeah yeah so what is this new seven year cycle well? Well, this new seven-year cycle that I'm about to enter into, I don't know. I have no idea is my answer. Like I think I have a feeling

it's going to be moving more from interpretive art, being an interpretive artist to more of a creative artist. I don't know what that looks like, but I have a feeling that that's... It's weird. I've started learning piano

and I've started learning singing for a project that potentially will be happening next year that I'm not allowed to talk about yet, I don't think. But, so just to dangle that one in. Love the tease. I get the tease every week. Someone comes in, they're brilliant, they tell stories, and they're like, I'm working on something I can't say what it is.

But it's interesting. Like I've been learning piano and singing and looking at, and I keep getting, with my singing teacher i look at these old like uh manuscripts and and uh songbooks of of of these old masters and there's something that's like if i you know you know when you like something's vibrating a little bit like in under the silver lake where like there's an object that that would seem inconsequential but you're looking at it and it's like it's calling out to you like that like the um like the cereal box in in under the silver lake or like i get a little chill even

thinking about that that moment like the cereal box calling out to you like that what what what is it trying to tell me what is that parrot trying to tell me but i'm looking at these old um musical scores and i'm and like that but they're kind of just going, Andrew, Andrew. And I'm like, what the fuck do you want from me? But I think I'm connecting that it's something to do with wanting to put something down on paper, wanting to make something from nothing, birth something into the world that's not that's that that's from the ground up

that's so so I feel like that's where I'm I'm heading in certain in a certain way I don't but I really don't know yet and I'm and I know how privileged it is for me to say this but I'm very very happy and satisfied with the last however many years and it's been an amazing ride and adventure and there's been a lot of ride and adventure and there's been a lot of luck on the way. There's been a lot of hard work and it's weird

being in your mid-30s anyway, I find. I feel like we're probably about around We are the same age. We're the same. 1983, guys.

When was your birth? 83. 26. July 26. July 26. That means you're not a Leo. You're on the cusp of Leo. Not a Leo.

You're a Leo. Me too. Me too. So, hey, now the interview can really get started. that means you're not a Leo you're on the cusp of Leo you're Leo me too me too so hey now we can now the interview can really get started so you know what I'm saying

yes I do and I wonder if like me as a Leo you have a sense of needing to achieve and needing to yes

needing to always be you're speaking my language Andrew always be growing and always be kind of conquering the next mountain and expanding and being magnanimous with your expansion.

This is upsetting how you have targeted my feelings. Kings of the jungle, man. You could say that. But what I was going to say was, humble kings of the jungle. Yes. An inclusive king of the jungle. An inclusive king of the jungle. But what I was going to say was, I'm excited to know, basically. And I don't know yet.

Last question before we start talking Leo tarot card reading. At the end of every episode of this show, we ask guests what's the last great thing that they've seen. I know that you're an avid watcher of things. Sure. Well, as I say, Free Solo was my favorite thing that I've seen in so long. I've seen lots of things that I've loved, but Free Solo was... What else? Give me one B.

Russian Doll. Yeah, wonderful. I thought was so... How'd you feel about that as a representation of New York? Oh, yeah. I thought it was pretty damn good. On point, right? I think so, yeah.

And Natasha is a representation of New York. She's like an embodiment of that city. And I admire the writing. I admire the imagination. I admire the uniqueness and the heart and the humor that that she is as a performer um so yeah I really really dug that if Russian doll is my New York under the Silver Lake is sort of my LA so right there's a nice pairing there Andrew thanks for doing this I dig it thank you thank you for having me Thank you again for listening to this episode of The Big Picture.

Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins and Andrew Garfield for his candor. Please tune in next week where we'll be wrapping up Marvel Month with a little conversation about a movie called Spider-Man Homecoming. And then, and then, and then, and then, Avengers Endgame. Join me and Mallory Rubin breaking it all down at the end of the week. See you then.