The Big Picture - The Oscars Show Returns: The Five Best Movies at the Fall Festivals … So Far

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

It's (virtual) film festival season! Sean and Amanda break down the Telluride Film Festival and Toronto International Film Festival movies they've seen thus far—including 'Nomadland,' 'Ammonite,' and 'One Night in Miami'—and what these festivals mean for the elongated Oscar race, including the Best Picture and Best Actress categories (0:45). Then, Sean is joined by 'Antebellum' directors Gerard Bush and Christopher Renz to talk about their new film (1:05:07). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Gerard Bush and Christopher Renz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken Original Lager is made with pure malt and their famous A yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season, all-the-time kind of beer. For example, when Amanda Dobbins comes to my back porch for a socially distanced hang, maybe I might serve you a Heineken, right Amanda? That would be lovely. Remember to pick up a pack and have it delivered today and drink responsibly. I'm Sean Fennessey.

I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Oscars. That's right. Fall film festival season is back in a new way. And like we always do at this time, the Oscars. That's right. Fall film festival season is back in a new way. And like we always do at this time, the Oscar show has returned. Later in the show, I talked with directors,

Gerard Bush and Christopher Renz, the writer directors of the new film Antebellum. I hope you'll stick around for that, but let's talk about how we've been spending our week. Amanda, what have you been doing this week? I have been watching some movies. Me too.

We've been watching movies because movies have been made available to us in our home, courtesy of various film festivals happening around the world, primarily the Toronto International Film Festival. That's where we've been spending most of our time. And they have created a system that allows journalists, buyers, sellers, people participating in the film industry, and even some fans to watch the movies at their festival from the comfort of their own home. And it's been interesting because this is usually right about the time when we dig into who's up, who's down, what's the state of play in the Oscar

race, what are we going to be spending the next five months of our time discussing. And in an attempt to broach normalcy. I thought we could try to do it despite this being a completely different version of it. How are you feeling about that? I'm excited because I like having movies back and they're, you know, after seeing tenant in a drive-in, we kind of got access to Toronto and it was just all these movies back in my life. And even though it was in a very, very different circumstances in every respect, which we'll talk about, glad to have movies back. And glad to have the Oscars back because, as we discussed at great length on the last

episode, I am somehow still invested in the Oscars as an institution, as an idea. I do think that you and I need to have an honest conversation about the fact that the Oscars are not until April this year. And so right now, possibly without a lot of thought, we've signed ourselves up for a seven to maybe eight month Oscar season. Like, did you do that math before you put this outline together? No, I didn't do that. Okay. So just FYI, this is the world that we're all living in.

Yes. I believe the Oscars are set to air on April 25th. And I think the eligibility window is February 28th, which means that's two months more than we usually have in terms of eligibility. Though obviously there have been fewer films released so far this year that would likely qualify. At this time last year, for example, the world, the film world, had already seen Once Upon a time in hollywood and parasite

two of the biggest and most celebrated best picture nominees and i don't think we've seen anything on the order of parasite or once upon a time in hollywood so far this year we've seen some good stuff you know the bad boys for life fans fired up trolls world tour crushed it and there has been obviously obviously some genuinely great films released since Sundance, essentially. And we've talked about a lot of them on the show. But this moment signals a different kind of beginning, I guess.

So let's just go to the big pictures, big picture. This is a problem in the big picture. You know what I mean? Okay. Virtual film festival experience. Is this better or worse than film festivals in general for you, Amanda? Ultimately better. And that is because I find being around large groups of people for extended periods of time

and navigating all the logistical and social interactions that surround that to be quite stressful. Please see the great bus drama of Sundance 2020. Never forget me just being like, where does the shuttle go? And, but, and, and I do think that in a lot of ways, the ease of use has been pretty astounding. You know, I, I want to credit the Toronto Film Festival for just building an entire digital platform. And suddenly I could sign on and with relative ease of use.

And let me tell you, we're not going to name names, but some companies and services and studios have figured this out more than others of making screeners available. And Toronto made it very easy for me to be able to watch a tremendous number of films in my home. And that is a privilege. And I'm very grateful for me to be able to watch a tremendous number of films in my home. And that is a privilege and I'm very grateful for it. I will say on the flip side, typically when you go to a film festival, you go for a set number of days and you have a pass and you travel and you say to your family and your friends, and in our cases to your work like hey I'm going to be in movies all day like I'm going to the film festival I'm this is time that I'm taking to devote to this experience

and maybe this was just like me not planning ahead but I didn't do that at all and then suddenly it was like okay so in addition to your full-time job and your life and all of your responsibilities you're also supposed to be watching like three movies a day before they expire. And I just can't, I have to say, I would not give Amanda Dobbins an A for this planning for this time around. I just, I didn't pass my own test. I am a relentless planner in this respect, especially when I go to a festival. I work very hard to make sure I know where I need to be, when I need to be there, so I can see as much as I can. There is a difference

in this experience. Before I get into that, let me just completely echo what you said, which is hats off to TIFF. They really made this incredibly easy. And this seems like it was very difficult, and it seemed like there was a lot of struggle. I've heard that there's been some difficulty internally with getting this on its feet, but they really did, at least for me personally, make this a really easy to navigate experience. And some of the things that are great about it are also some of the things that I think provoke a kind of anxiety that we'll talk about. For example, the 48-hour window to watch a movie and then will you be able to watch the movie before it quote-unquote expires? This is a lot of inside baseball conversation we're having, but I think it's

pertinent because it's pertinent to the ongoing streaming conversation that we've been having about where films are going. And as this streaming moment essentially invades festival culture, it does feel like there's a new normal aspect to this too. It does feel like we're getting to a place where more and more people are going to experience festivals, if not entirely virtually, at least in part virtually. Now, some journalists and some buyers will watch a Vimeo link, for example, of a movie that will be playing at a festival to get ahead of their coverage or to get a sense of whether or not they want to acquire the

film. But for the most part, it's that thing that you're describing. It's hundreds of people, thousands of people in a city all lining up, waiting a long time to get into these movies, surrounded by each other, and then exiting the movie and then getting a drink and chatting amiably or not so amiably about whether they like the movie or not. And then that creates a kind of energy. This is different. The place that I have gone after watching a movie immediately after seeing something is Letterboxd because I follow a bunch of people that I know are watching these movies. And I kind of just want to see what the conversation is. I want to see what the energy is around a movie. And maybe that's a personal

weakness of mine, but I can't help but feel like let's get a sense of where the direction is going because historically we've used these festivals as bellwethers for conversations around the Oscars. How do you feel about being left to your own devices for the most part to figure out what the energy on a movie is? I just want you to respond to my texts, okay? Like, I'm right here. You know how to text me. You have multiple avenues through which to reach me, okay? It's like weekdays, weekends, you know how to get in touch. And instead, you're going to Letterboxd instead of talking to your one friend who has also seen the movies.

What is this? You're blaspheming the number of friends I have, first of all. Second of all, I'm just trying to make this an energetic conversation as frequently as possible on our show. I want to be surprised by your ideas. Okay, but like,

I do think it's been an isolating experience a little bit. And the flip side of the festival is that, I mean, you are around a lot of people, which I always find a little stressful, even in a non-pandemic time. Shout out to introverts. But also, you are around a lot of people who also care about these things. And it's like, oh, did you see this? I got to see this. And what did you think about this?

And you run into people on the street. It is fun. It's, you know, it's a bunch of like-minded people. We're nerds about this at the end of the day. I try to pretend like I'm not. And then I'm above like the dune conversation, but worms, you know, but at the end of the day, you want to talk with people and I wanted to talk with you about it. And you were like, no, save it for the pod, which I get, but I'm just looking for a little human connection. Yeah. Well, you know what?

One of the complexities is to the movie that you wanted to talk about. And we'll talk about it a little bit here on this episode, though. I promise we won't spoil the film for people because who knows when a lot of these movies are going to be coming out. I want people to feel like they're not getting these movies ruined for them. But you wanted to talk about Pieces of a Woman, which is a movie that is a big, is likely to be a big contender, at least for one person this Oscar season.

And is a very complicated movie and a very intense film. And it really just didn't feel like a film to me worthy of a text message. I wanted to have that conversation almost in person because it's so heavy. And this is an interesting thing is like, let's be honest, okay?

I sent you that text message in the middle of watching it because I was able to do that. And I do not text during screenings. I don't look at my phone during screenings. Sean sometimes does, but I do not because I can't get distracted, but I was able to. And there was something about having like a really visceral experience to something that I was watching and just being like, I need to, I need to talk to someone about this. I need to have some sort of connection. And I did send that to you halfway through, which is bad on a number of levels, except in some ways, I think

reflects how we watch movies now and how people react, will react with things without naming any names. I did also in the same way, accidentally sort of spoil a movie for myself by just instinctively picking up my phone and Googling something without thinking about what having that information at that point in the movie experience might do. And it was not a big deal, but it was impulse.

It's not like I thought, oh, I shouldn't look at my phone. It's just kind of, you know, we have like learned behavior at this point. And that was another interesting part of the festival at home experience, which I think there may be a lot of people listening who are like, I never went to film festivals and I'll never go to film festivals. And like, I don't really care whether you guys had 48 hours to watch your screener. And number one, I want to say to you, valid. I hear you.

But to the extent that this is an indicator of how movies will be released and distributed going forward, I think it's important. And I do think that sometimes we don't focus enough on like the technological choices undergirding a lot of these movie releases because they are, they have been so important. I mean, and Netflix has just been like a decade ahead on the technology and I think you can see that paying benefits and the logistics. And it is also kind of going to affect how we all get to see these movies going forward. So I do think it's worth talking about. And I just, I like really just respond to the text.

Okay. Just, you know, just respond. I'm making you no promises in that respect. You know, you did say one thing that I really identified with, which is that I have just been doing my job the way that I always do while also doing this, which means I'm either looking for 90 minutes in the middle of the day where I don't have a meeting to go to because I have a whole other day job, just like you do, or I'm just looking for 90 minutes in the middle of the day where I don't have a meeting to go to because I have a whole other day job just like you do, or I'm just spending from 6.30 PM until midnight watching movies, which is what I would normally do, but not in quite the same focused

kind of way. And it's just a different kind of experience. In many ways, it's wonderful. I feel very grateful and fortunate and use the word privilege. I think that's 100% right. This is kind of awesome that we get a chance to see so much of this stuff. And I've seen a handful of movies this year during this festival experience that I've just loved. And like you said, movies are back. It does feel like something is back in a way that is, is makes me feel better. Yeah. And I would add to that.

It's so exciting because I'm not sure in a non-pandemic world that I would have been able to go to Toronto this year because you know, it's travel and because I'm not sure in a non-pandemic world that I would have been able to go to Toronto this year because, you know, it's travel. And I think in a physical world, there are limitations. And to me, it really, I know I'm more than anyone bitch and moan about watching things at home. And we talk a lot about how streaming is changing the theater experience. But, like, this is the upside of streaming. It's amazing that we are able to see so many movies. And I do think in the same way,

it's amazing that a lot of people who would never be able to go to a film festival or whose local theater was never going to be able to host a lot of these films, just have instant access to it. It is that thing of like, we're living in the future. And in a lot of ways, that's really amazing. Yeah, it's democratizing for a lot of people

who are otherwise not able to have these experiences. So that part of it is great, obviously. There are some potential downsides. Now, normally a Toronto Film Festival slate, for example, would feature about 200 films. This year, it only features 50 films. Part of that is, obviously, it's all driven by the pandemic. Part of that is because there are some driven by the pandemic. Part of that is

because there are some studios that are clearly uncomfortable putting their films into these systems. There are some companies that, you know, for example, Netflix has decided not to show any of their films at any of these festival experiences. And, you know, Netflix has become one of the most significant, if not the most significant player on the festival circuit over the last couple of years. And so, you know, there's a big hit there. But 50 films is still a lot. It's still a lot of films to see. And in the past at Toronto, you know, specifically, we would look at the audience award as a bellwether for the Oscars. Last year, it was Jojo Rabbit in the past. It has been movies like Green Book, movies that have a big energy behind them. Three Billboards also was an example

of this. Sometimes these movies that maybe we don't love so much after they win the audience prize, but those movies tend to emerge from this festival with a wind in their sails, with a head of steam going into Best Picture and all the other categories at all the award shows. And while a couple of movies have emerged, and we're definitely going to talk about them here, I don't quite feel the same effect, the same galvanizing people

encircling a film and celebrating it. And I'm trying to figure out if that is a product of the reduced slate of films, or if that's a product of the experience that we're more or less celebrating here. Well, I do think actually that the festival circuit in general has circled around one film and we're going to talk about it. But to me, it felt more like it was the festivals themselves out of necessity because there are, as you mentioned, fewer films going to all the festivals. And I believe Venice Telluride and Toronto kind of made like a pact. We're all working together to promote what films we can. And also the logistical complications of making films available to a large amount of people.

So I think the decision-making process happened earlier. And it's not as much of an audience consensus as it is a circuit consensus. You're right. I think that's accurate. I just think that there's a relative dearth. Last year coming out of Toronto, we saw Jojo Rabbit, Hustlers, Knives Out, Ford versus Ferrari, Joker, and Marriage Story. They didn't all play those festivals necessarily, but they had all emerged by then in addition to Parasite and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Most of those films were nominated for Best Picture.

Those that were not were considered serious contenders. We're just not in that circumstance right now. There are not nine films that I think are going to be competing for Best Picture based on what we've seen so far. Three, maybe? Two? I'm not sure. We'll get into it when we get into a conversation about one of them. But I guess, I'm trying to figure out what it is that we're not seeing.

Like, you know, West Side Story was not going to be playing here, for example. And it's just it's hard to know because you don't know. Like, I don't know what Sony Pictures Classics or Searchlight is withholding that we otherwise would have gotten. You know, A24, for example, is not really showing films right now. A24 is always in the mix in terms of competing here. We already mentioned that Netflix isn't competing. Does it feel like there's a kind of an, is it an absence of the film or is it just an absence of the conversation, the energy around these movies that you and I are always contributing

to by doing this show? I do think it's a little bit of both. I mean, as you said, the numbers are, there are fewer films and fewer studios kind of releasing films. And there just is also and then there is a lack of conversation because while a lot of people are able to watch these online, there isn't the festival water cooler experience and Sean won't answer my texts and there's no one, you know, we aren't having even the, the online conversation still seems somewhat fragmented. And then there's just also an uncertainty hanging over the thing, the whole thing that is really bewildering, you know, by the end of festival season last year, the movies that you and I hadn't seen, we knew exactly what we needed to see. And we're just like begging, can, you know, when can we see Marriage Story in particular? I remember this,

like, just let me see Marriage Story. I know, I know. I need to see it. And there are still a lot of movies that I need to see, but there is something about still really having no idea when or how they'll be released,

that there's a lack of urgency. And at the same time, I have some friends who are interested in movies and they were like, hey, like, what are the good movie recs? And I told them and then I got a text back that was like, OK, but none of these are like coming out. And I said, oh, yeah, I'm sorry, like you're not actually going to be able to see any of these movies at any point.

I don't really know what to tell you. So there's still such a big question mark at the end of this. Now, a lot of this is because it's September. And as I mentioned, the Oscars are now not until April. So we're starting a bit earlier in the scheme of things in the timeline. And there's also a pandemic and theaters are in crisis and things change every day in terms of release schedules. So who can really say? But I do think that there's a lack of urgency as a result. Yeah. If you imagine a world in which there was no pandemic, and I wish we could imagine that world, honestly, for so many reasons. We already would have seen Pixar's Soul. We probably would have already seen Aaron Sorkin's Trial of the Chicago 7. Maybe we would have seen Mank. Maybe

Mank would have played Telluride. Who knows? We might have seen a lot of these movies. And so these movies that, you know, we know are coming out, that your friends are asking you about, we'd be able to recommend to them and say, hey, this is coming on October 23rd, or this is coming on, you know, November 5th. And most of the, even the stuff we're seeing now, I don't know when it's coming out. But let's use that as an opportunity to talk about

what we have seen and what we do like. So, you know, this is a very abbreviated list. And I don't want to go into too much detail about these films because I don't want to ruin them for people. I don't think that you can ruin David Byrne's American Utopia, which is just an absolute steroidal shot of joy and safety. Just one of the best things I've seen this year. I completely agree. I have not had a stronger reaction to a film this year or in a while, and certainly a piece of art in a while. And this is one I watched alone on my couch at two in the afternoon, which is the worst possible circumstances to get like Amanda to engage in something. And I think I teared up within five minutes and was really emotionally moved throughout

this, this film, which I do think, you know, it is a filmed version of David Burns Broadway show, which I was not lucky enough to see, But I do think it exists on its own as a film. There is art in the way that it's filmed. And I am a little bit speechless. And to talk any more without would kind of spoil parts of it, though I think you're right. You can't really spoil the experience. You either kind of get to live it and swept up in that world for two hours or not, but I thought it was extraordinary. Yeah. And this is one where we're not necessarily torturing people by talking about it because it's coming to HBO on October 18th. This is directed by Spike Lee. Obviously, David Byrne is the star of one of, if not the greatest concert documentaries of all time, Jonathan Demme's Stop Making Sense. This obviously feels like a bookend to that film.

There are a lot of talking head songs in this film that he performs as part of this show. American Utopia is a record that he released a couple of years ago and is still kind of the spine of this show. And yeah, I don't think we should talk about the themes or the choices that he makes or the choices that Spike makes

other than just to say, it's pretty amazing. It's completely enveloping. I had a similar experience. I kind of watched it in the middle of the day and just took me over. And I actually struggled with that with some of these other films, even films that I liked. If I was watching it at the wrong time of day, or I had something going on in my life, or I was just a little bit more distracted than I would have been if I were sitting in one of those theaters in Toronto or in Telluride or wherever. That was just not the case for this. I just was sucked into it. And then it pummeled me down into a talking heads rabbit hole for three days,

which is like the best place for me to go. Same. That's all we've been listening to in this house. And my husband couldn't watch it with me. So I think every three hours, I would just kind of just out of nowhere be like, another thing I'd like to tell you about David Byrne's American Utopia. And he was like, can you please not spoil it?

Yeah. It's, it's a, it was a really happy, um, inspiring place to be. Yeah. And it felt like a natural kind of festival kickoff film,

right? It's the sort of movie that I think, you know, isn't necessarily, it's not, this is not going to win best picture. It's not that really that kind of a movie. It's, it's an experiential movie. It's a, it's a salve really for, for Broadway as much as it is for films, because this is a show that was active when the

pandemic hit and had to shut down because of the pandemic. I believe, I think I'm getting that right. And so a lot of people missed out on the opportunity to experience this, who had tickets or had planned to see it. I would have been one of those people if I were traveling to New York just because I love Burns so much. He's like a very just an important artist to me personally. And it's just cool. It's just cool that we got to see it. You know, it's cool. We got to see him do his thing.

But I do also think it really like there is a I mean, obviously, it was directed by Spike Lee, who knows how to shoot things. But there is a visual sophistication to it and the way that communicates the set design and the movement and the music all together. And it communicates what the show itself was able to create within a theater, but I also think uses the film medium as a medium itself. I can't say enough good things about it. I agree. Maybe we'll talk about it a little bit more. Hard to say. I would love to talk to Spike or David about that if they're out there listening in the world. I'm going to mention that Nomadland is definitely going to make our list of our favorite things that we've seen thus far. We'll wait to explore it in a little bit more detail in the next segment, but just want to cite that this is kind of the movie of the festival season thus far, and we'll explore

why that is shortly. The next movie is One Night in Miami. And you and I have not discussed this at all. Did you get a chance to watch this? I did. And I enjoyed it. I did too. So One Night in Miami is based on a play by Kemp Powers.

And it's directed by the great actress Regina King, recent Oscar winner Regina King. And it is a fictionalized portrayal of a night in Miami in 1964, the night that Muhammad Ali beats Honey Listen to win the World Heavyweight Championship. And it's mostly a four-hander that features Malcolm X, Jim Brown, Sam Cooke, and Muhammad Ali talking. That's really what the movie is. There are some other aspects of it. There's a couple of impressive boxing sequences in the movie. There's a couple of sequences that are outside of the four of these guys talking in a hotel room. But for the most part, it's a contained story. Amazingly timely film. And I would say that you and I are probably not the best people specifically to explore what's really at the heart of this movie. I really, I tweeted at Van Lathan that like,

I'm very excited to talk to him about this movie because in many ways, if you've been listening to the Higher Learning Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, the movie is like a reflection of a lot of the conversations and debates that Rachel Lindsay and Van have been having over the last four or five months.

But what did you just generally think about what Regina King did and the setup of the film? I think everything that you just said about us being like, we aren't the arbiters of this movie is true. It, in a lot of ways, becomes, and again, we won't spoil too much, but it is four men talking in a hotel room. And so they have philosophical and political

and religious conversations and sometimes debates, and they are on different sides of things. And it was a very welcome learning experience for me just to watch these fictional characters talk about these ideas and just to sit and listen and watch. So I thought that, and as you said, extremely timely topical matters, even though the film is set in, I believe 1963. Is that correct? I think it's 64. 64. I'm sorry. And, you know, the other thing about it being prime, as you mentioned, primarily for characters in a hotel room is that it is based on a play and it can often be very

difficult to turn a play in a contained space into a film which is an expansive visual experience and I thought that Regina King made some great choices and the some of the scenes that you mentioned that are outside of that hotel room are really well done and to kind of expand the world a bit so that when they are sitting in the room talking about the ideas that those really hit home. So I thought it was impressive. I did too. I think it's hard to make a movie like that not seem stagey. And at times it does seem stagey. I mean, it's a little bit hard to get around the fact that they're shooting a play. But, you know, I want to make sure I get this person's name right. Tammy Riker, who's the cinematographer of this film, who is also the cinematographer for The

Old Guard and is one of the precious few female cinematographers working in the space right now, shot the movie. And Tammy brings something deeper and a little bit more elegant, I think, to what otherwise could be a little bit of a claustrophobic story. So we'll talk a lot more about One Night in Miami down the road. I'm sure it will be qualifying for this Oscar season. I'm sure there will be a lot of conversation about Regina King. I think my gut is there's two kind of big standout performances, and then there's a big standout presence. So Kingsley Ben-Adir plays Malcolm X, who is a person who is relatively new discovery to me, but pretty amazing actor. To be clear, Kingsley Ben-Adir is a new discovery and not Malcolm X. Yes, Kingsley Ben-Adir. I'm very familiar with the life and work of Malcolm X,

respected immensely. Kingsley Ben-Adir is a British actor who has appeared on a couple of TV shows of late. He plays President Barack Obama in the forthcoming The Comey Rule, which we'll talk a little bit about on this show. He's exceptional in this movie. Aldous Hodge, I think, is also quite good as Jim Brown. Eli Gorey plays Cassius Clay. I had never seen Eli Gorey before. I'm not a watcher of Riverdale, for example,

but I thought he did an impressive simulacra of Ali. And then Leslie Odom plays Sam Cooke, Leslie Odom of Hamilton fame. And he sings. And Leslie Odom plays Sam Cooke, Leslie Odom of Hamilton fame. And he sings. And he sings just like Sam Cooke. And it's quite a use of Leslie's skills, talents. Yes. It's also, I think I would be nervous. I mean, I can't sing at all. But to be like, yes, I will try to sing in the place of sam cook that's that's taken on um quite a legend so i i admire the scary times yeah yeah yeah he does he he he he does it impressively um a couple of other films that we should talk about you know i i want to actually

mention um the boy from medellin here quickly which is a movie that i found fascinating i think it's not necessarily totally successful um i don't know if you had got a chance to watch this i didn't unfortunately um and that's really the problem with this is that like you and i didn't get to see everything there are a bunch of movies that i regret not getting a chance to see well in a lot of that a lot of ways that's like a film festival there's always something that you couldn't get to and the logistical complications of it so i've been trying to make peace with it, but I did unfortunately miss this one. This is also an Amazon movie like One Night in Miami.

It's directed by Matthew Heineman, who people may know from Cartel Land. He's a very celebrated documentarian. And this is about J Balvin, the reggaeton artist, the Colombian artist. And I'm not a big J Balvin guy per se. And I had read a review of this film before I watched it to figure out

if I wanted to watch it. And the review said, this is for J Balvin fans only. And I was like, do I really want to spend my Saturday afternoon watching this if it's for J Balvin fans only? And I don't care that much. And I was like, you know what?

I'm just going to give it a try. I like what Matthew Heineman does. I'm interested in seeing this world. I'm interested in seeing Columbia. And the premise of the movie really got me and it's kind of connected to One Night in Miami because it's certainly about Balvin's depression and anxiety as a performer and as a superstar,

which is obviously a very generational talking point right now, kind of the public facing engagement with the concept of depression, even if you're a successful or seemingly happy person. But more specifically, it's also about an artist's role in political action. And it's not, this movie is not your typical like, J Balvin has a cause and he will pursue his cause. It's really the big stretches of the movie are him looking at his phone and looking

at how people are criticizing him online and him figuring out whether he should do something about it. At one point in this movie, he actually just responds to somebody on Instagram and asks to meet up with them to talk about why they're criticizing him and what he can do. And I've never really seen anything like this before. And I wouldn't even recommend as a human being that you actually do that. But it's a a it seems like a very honest grappling with something and it's it's not this kind of like bullshitty virtue signaling like let's raise awareness about x y and z kind of pursuit it's a little bit more real and raw than that or at least it seems that way and made by basically like a master documentarian so while

there were parts of the movie that i didn't really click with i did think that it was kind of the first time I'd ever seen anything like this. And I watched it right after One Night in Miami, which is very much, you know, that conversation is a huge part of that film, which is what role do people, especially people in underrepresented communities who have had success, what role do they have in lifting up their communities? And that's such a, such an important and complex talking point right now and so it's interesting to see it getting represented in these movies at these festivals um shall we talk about pieces of a woman yeah though i think we don't want to talk too specifically and i think you know i i've kind of said most of what i want to say is that um

well this movie stars uh vanessa kir Kirby and Shia LaBeouf, but really Vanessa Kirby. And it has a, I want to say, 25-minute opening scene that- Unbroken shot. That is unlike anything that I have seen in a film in a number of ways, both in terms, you know, technical, but in terms of the subject matter, uh, in terms of the way it is telling the experience of, um, uh, a woman and a central event in a lot of women's lives and the physicality of that experience. And I chose to watch this movie at 9am on a Saturday morning, and that was bracing.

And that was, I mean, and it worked. I was very engaged, but I have thought a lot, especially about the opening and the way it decides to tell that part of the story since I saw it and was really moved by it. It's tough, but I look forward to talking about it. And I think also about Vanessa Kirby's performance. Me too. So this movie comes from Cornell Mandrusco and Kata Weber, who are a filmmaking team. They made a film a few years ago called White God, which was pretty fascinating and beautiful

and difficult. And that's kind of the sorts of films that they make. These fascinating and beautiful and difficult. And that's kind of the sorts of films that they make. These fascinating, beautiful, difficult movies. They apply heavy, sophisticated filmmaking technique to intimate circumstances. Hard movie to talk about without really kind of giving away the ghost on it. So we won't get into it too much. But I agree. I don't think it's 100%

successful as a film, but it's an amazing showcase for Vanessa Kirby. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think I singled out that first 25 minutes for a reason. And I don't know that the rest of the film always lives up to that. But I think Vanessa Kirby certainly does. I wanted to give a shout out to City Hall. I assume you did not sit through City Hall. Sit through is rude to City Hall, okay? I did not get a chance to watch that. How many hundred minutes?

It's a four and a half hour documentary from the great nonagenarian Frederick Wiseman, the grandfather of American documentary. And it's like all of his other films. It's a portrayal of like a space, a civic institution in all its mundanity and in all its depth. It's very long.

Even by Frederick Wiseman standards, it's long. Frederick Wiseman makes three-hour movies about small towns in Indiana. This is bigger than that. There are a lot of ordinance meetings. There are a lot of charity dinners. There are a lot of speeches from the mayor of Boston, Marty Walsh. But honestly, it's mostly incredible. It's mostly riveting. So this is on me that I didn't get to watch it. I just did an F for planning to Amanda. There's only two grades that you can get are A and F in the Amanda Dobbins grading universe.

So I got an F. But when did you watch it? How physically and space and time did you fit this in? I watched it on Monday night. I basically watched it in two two-hour chunks. I watched the first chunk, I would say from like six to eight with my wife, who was just marveling at the experience. She was like, how is this a film? I don't think she had ever seen a Wiseman movie before. It's really not so different in terms of you know the way that he edits the work which is like it's sort

of essayistic his movies they're not um they're not necessarily narratively linearly told they're they take different parts of different moments through periods of time and reorient them to kind of build thematic sections throughout the movie but so we watched it from like 6 to 8 p.m then she went to bed and then i watched her from like 10 to 12 p.m. And yeah, I mean, it's a lot. It's a huge commitment. And that's the thing. It's the same thing that we're talking about with film festivals writ large. It's a four and a half hour documentary that like very few people around the world are going to end up getting a chance to see.

But that also reveals a lot about how your local politics are made and who the people are that make your local politics. And they're just like regular people. You know, that's, that's a very unsophisticated way of analyzing this deep work that this, you know, incredibly accomplished man worked on, but it reveals what so many of Wiseman's movies reveal, which is like, we're all just frail doing our best to make things happen. And, you know, the, the corruption that you see is as banal as the good deeds that you see. So if you do get a chance to see it, I think there are certainly things about it that you would admire. I will put it on the list and try to be a better planner and observer

of my time going forward in this festival and Oscar season. I'm not here to shame you. As far as what didn't work, you know, there's some stuff that I'm even reluctant to kind of criticize if it hasn't been purchased. You know, like Pieces of a Woman, for example, was picked up by Netflix

because of this. One Night in Miami had previously been picked up right before the festival started by Amazon. You know, American Utopia already had a home in HBO. The Boy from Medellin

already had a home at Amazon. You know, one movie that just didn't fire for me the way that I thought we thought it might when we were talking about Oscar season earlier this year was Ammonite, which is a new film that comes from Neon by Frances Lee that stars Saoirse Ronan and Kate Winslet. I think we had earmarked this as like, lock it down.

Yeah, especially like I see Saoirse Ronan and I see Sign me up at this point like a unbelievable hot streak from one of my favorite young actresses yeah and so you know without giving away too much this is a film that has been pointed out many times that resembles the storyline of portrait of a lady on fire is about an isolated woman who is very committed to her fairly contained life and work on an island where she studies fossilized mollusks, which I guess are called ammonites, and come to this town as a man who is interested in the work that she does. And then that man decides that he needs to leave that space, but his wife, who is having some, I guess some emotional trouble,

needs to stay on the island and spend some time with Kate Winslet's character to better understand, I don't know, her womanhood, her independence, her life. I don't even, I'm not totally sure. I don't really think he's trying to get her to understand her independence, but it's a sign of the times.

Continue. Maybe he's just abandoning her is a better way to put it. He doesn't want to be bothered, it seems like seems like yes and what happens from there is the movie um it just this didn't work for me like it's just like kind of a cold film and um it's quite patient um but i i think it was not what i was expecting and that's kind of the problem too with with festival anticipation yeah i would agree with you. I think when the M&I trailer was released, I saw just like a meme on Twitter and I don't

remember who made it. So I apologize that I can't credit you and I'll try to get it right, but it was a Venn diagram. And in one circle was, I think it was either like lesbian romances or romances between women. That was one circle. And then the other circle with absolutely no overlap was films with electricity. And which I thought was very funny. And you know, that obviously

nods to Portrait of a Lady on Fire, but also the fact that a lot of these stories are often told, you know, in the perspective of like old timey ill faded romances and that the women in these films don't actually like get a chance to be modern or like have a happy love story but having watched it i also think there was like a second type of electricity uh missing from this film and like the just the lack of electricity both in the color palette and in the and the script writing and just the the energy on all levels um what did not really resonate for me. Yeah, me as well. Okay, so that's basically a general take. There's a few movies that I

wish I had the chance to see. I feel like the big one that I would want to talk about is Wolfwalkers, which is this Irish animated film that so many people clearly responded to. And shame on me being the advocate for animated movies on this podcast. I just missed out on it. And as an Irishman, shame on me. What was I doing? I don't know. I don't know. If you're one of the makers of Wolfwalkers and you want me to see it, holler at me because I'd like to check it out. Let's go to Stock Up, Stock Down. If it goes bust, you can make 10 to 1, even 20 to 1 return, and it's already slowly going bust. Okay, we teased Nomadland. Let's talk about Nomadland. What is Nomadland, Amanda. Nomadland is a movie directed by Chloe Zhao

and adapted from a nonfiction book about groups of individuals in the U.S. who live in their vans or cars or kind of like mobile environments and are seeking a different way of life than the typical American consumer experience, whether out of necessity or out of vision or both. And it stars Frances McDormand as a kind of composite fictional character

and then several real-life people from these communities, much like the writer. And it follows Frances McDormand's character, whose name is Fern, as she kind of joins this community and finds her way through life in her van, which I believe is named Vanguard. That's right. That's a strong summary.

Nice job. Thank you. It's a pretty, I thought a pretty amazing movie. Um, it won the golden line of Venice. It is, I think it brings all of the beauty and sophistication and naturalism that Chloe job brought to the writer. And it also brings you a true movie star presence right at the center of it and francis mcdormand who i have always thought was one of the most transfixing people to show up in

movies over the last 30 years and she retains that power um as a woman in her 60s i mean she is in the center of the frame in most of the images in addition to the incredible southwestern vistas that the filmmakers capturing throughout this movie. So it's beautiful to look at. We saw it at a drive-in, much like Tenet. Slightly different experience, but it's a nice night supported by the Telluride Film Festival.

And yeah, that was the night when we were like, we're back at it with Oscar season. All the pundits were there. I heard all the chatter outside the bathroom about what to expect and is this working out and blah, blah, blah. And so that's slightly distinct from the film itself. But I did think that the film was pretty incredible. And I didn't feel like I had a compromised viewing experience really seeing it in that environment. No, they really leaned into it. And I thought we did see it in a drive-in like in our cars parked next to

each other again uh because my husband um was he he made his request known to the very kind people uh regulating the parking lot at the Telluride Film Festival screening at the Rose Bowl but um and they they were accommodating they were lovely thank you to everyone who worked that event um it that was the only similarity. When we drove up, I was like, oh, okay. So this movie would like to win an Oscar. And I think the circumstances of it are pretty interesting. So Telluride as a festival is not being held this year, but they did sponsor the screening.

And when you drove in, there was a telluride in los angeles and it was um in a in a beautiful field by the rosebold like one field over from some d23 uh viewing experience and so there were a few times during the screening where like the lightsabers from the d23 screen like reflected onto nomadland which was pretty funny but um everyone who was attending the screening um brought their festival cnbc and energy to it i felt underdressed i like did not believe it or not dress up to watch a movie in my car but many other people did and it was just so clear that um a lot of people had decided this is how we're going to spend our resources and this is the movie that we are going to launch as the movie this Oscar season. And I understand why, because I thought the film really lived up to it. And I thought it was like an absolutely fascinating juxtaposition to be watching this movie in my car, a place where I heretofore have not spent a lot of time and watching a movie about people who are living

in their cars for very different reasons and with very different ideals. And I was surrounded by a lot of people who are also in their cars. And, but they come from different places and they have some different values. And that worked for me. And I responded to the material. And I think the movie stands really beautifully on its own. But I certainly thought a lot about some of my life choices during and after that screening. Yeah, I don't know if it could have worked out better in that specific respect,

because if you are a victim of the trappings of a bourgeois lifestyle, as I know I don't know if it could have worked out better in that specific respect because if you are a victim of the trappings of a bourgeois lifestyle as I know I am um this is a movie that will interrogate your relationship to those things and why those things are important and you know there was a Q&A after the film with uh Chloe and Francis and these people who are part of this movement all on stage together socially distanced. And they talked about their philosophies and their way of life. And I would say that this is not, again, a message movie per se, but it's a movie with a message if you understand it. And Telluride Film Festival in particular, which is a very small community, a very wealthy community that puts on this annual event and is supported by the, you know,

the auspices of its community and the film community. This being the showcase for a story like this is, I don't know if it's paradoxical. It's kind of fascinating that we would watch it in our car and see this kind of a movie as part of this festival with this message. The whole thing is just kind of an interesting turn of events to me. but there was as you mentioned there was a q a after the fact and one of the um the real life members um of the of the cast and of the community and he is sort of the how would you describe it i mean he's a leader uh like a community leader and does youtube videos and speaks on these issues and he gave he was asked to speak and like gave it, I thought, very beautiful and a hard earned message about the capitalist system in America and also the environment. And this was as we were very close to the some of the California fires and ash was quite literally raining down onto our cars. And everyone and a thing that was very sweet that was happening at the film was that people

were flashing their lights and honking their horns in response but it was just a fleet of luxury cars like honking back in response to this capitalist message and i was just like here we are in america in 2020 as the ash falls down it was quite something it was a living mural of yeah the the the the wonder the joy and the joy, and the problem. And that, you know, I'm as much a part of that problem as anybody. So interesting experience and a great way to kind of see the movie and think about what the movie is trying to do. And, you know, I think this film is going to contend for best picture.

I think it will contend for best actress. We'll talk about that a little bit in a second. I think you could see cinematography being in play here. There's a number of different things. Maybe David Strathairn, who is the only other professional actor in this film. Maybe he contends for best supporting actor. So this won't be the last time we see it. The movie's coming from Searchlight. It comes December 4th. Chloe Jha is such an interesting person. We mentioned The Rider, which was her last film, which got a lot of acclaim a couple of years ago. And her next film is,

is Marvel's eternals. And even after seeing this movie, which is a step up budgetarily, a step up in terms of vision and what she was able to accomplish in the movie. I was like, how the fuck did they give this person a Marvel movie? How is that going to work?

I, I I'm eager to see it. I was like, how the fuck did they give this person a Marvel movie? How is that going to work? I'm eager to see it. I think nothing would be better for the MCU than to continue to expand the opportunities that they provide to filmmakers like Chloe. But man, what the hell is she going to make? Because what she's doing, what her vision of film is, has nothing to do with the high level interconnected commercialism of the MCU. That's 100% true. I can't believe that I'm about to defend any part of this. And I don't even

really mean to defend it. I would just say that one thing that she clearly does very well is that she enters a world and a system and can make a lot of existing pieces work and find real art in what she has to work with. And whether that's a community of people living in bands or like the MCU. I think that there is like an underrated kind of practical logistical acumen in being able to find art without it all springing from your head and you being able to say, everyone needs to do exactly this and think exactly this. And I think that is one of her great skills.

And it's really amazing what she's able to do. Counterpoint, after seeing this, I just like Googled the plot of Eternal. I just read three sentences on wikipedia and i was like okay good luck you i'll respond to your texts if you start telling me stuff like that over text if you want to facetime while you read mcu plot summaries i'm into that anyway yeah i i i'm not even criticizing it i think it's awesome that she's making a movie like this i think those movies need more great filmmakers they need more filmmakers that are not white guys there's tons of great stuff about i just i i'm pretty good at being able to visualize

what's coming down the pike in the world of movies i've got enough experience with this one i'm like i don't know what the fuck they're gonna do i have no idea what to expect from her when it comes to a movie like this and i guess that's ultimately exciting and i'm happy about it um you know i i was reading gregory elwood's uh kind of oscars analysis of the festival season so far in the playlist and he pointed out that we've really only seen two movies and you and i specifically have seen both of these movies that i think are probably likely to qualify the way that the jojo rabbits and jokers and once upon a times and parasites did last year and that's this movie nomland and Minari, which we talked about a bit after Sundance and does not have a release date. That's an A24 movie. Also a film not made by a white guy. And I can't

wait for that movie to come out because I can't wait to talk about it again and see it again and talk to other people in the world about it because I was so moved by that one too. But that's it. And these are two really small films. They're about very small experiences. They're really about money and poverty and representation to some extent and the immigrant experience to some extent and the kind of transient nature of American life. That's really what both of those movies share is how you have to move to get what you want to stay safe. And I wonder if we're going to have a slate of Best Picture nominees this year that are more representative of what's going on right now, of the way that people are struggling, of the ongoing conversations we've been having nationally, of this political moment, given that we have an election just around the corner here. I think there's a chance that we see seven or eight films that feel very of this time, as opposed to Ford versus Ferrari,

a movie I liked a lot, but that is essentially an exercise in engineering and a kind of nostalgic emotionalism that doesn't necessarily have all that much to do with the present other than being a metaphor for moviemaking. So do you think that we're going to have that from the academy i think it's entirely possible and plausible if only because like this time capital t capital t just encapsulates almost everything at this point like there there are just so many fronts on with we are on which we are reckoning with

what it means here in america to be an American, which I think Nomadland is certainly about. And Minari is also very much about. And what it means to be humans, what it means to live on this planet, what it means to how we relate to institutions, how we relate to each other. It's just kind of we're all at home on our Zooms talking about it all of the time. And so I think good art almost always reflects its moment or a larger moment in some way, but there is a lot to reflect right now. There always has been, but we're reflecting it all at once. How about that?

I agree with you. We'll have to wait and see what else we get a chance to see. Before we continue, let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. If you thought a cold, crisp summer Heineken was something, just wait until you taste the Heineken Fall lineup.

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responsibly. Okay. We're back and we're talking about the big race. Well, mama, look at me now. I'm a star. I got to say, I'm kind of shocked that I feel like we already have a category that's rounding into shape because while everything in the Oscar world seems totally unsettled, I don't know when a lot of these movies are going to come out that we've been discussing. Best Actress has three serious contenders in three films that we've already talked about here. Do you feel like I'm getting ahead of myself by suggesting that? No, because the actor and actress categories always start with the festivals. And it's people saying, yes, hello, I would like an Oscar. And so now I will give you my extended campaign about how I was wrong to work with Woody Allen. That was Kate Winslet, just in case you were wondering. And I will give

all the interviews. I will accept your tribute awards. I am willing to campaign. And these roles get identified, like these people get identified pretty quickly, especially actresses, because candidly, there aren't as many movies made with these big star making female performances so they're usually a bit easier to pick out now that actually may be different this year and it might just be that we've seen the first three and um there are more to come but no this is this is typically how we talk about these conversations and even last year it was like i think renee zellweger had been like i will be winning the academy award for best actress at tell your ride um that felt like the

coronation for six years and that and that was it and then you and i spent an entire season being like um would we like to just have a conversation about some other things so maybe you and i could just have a conversation about some other things yeah Yeah. Well, you know, we mentioned Vanessa Kirby. She won Best Actress at the Venice Film Festival. She's also appearing in another film that I don't think either of us got a chance to see because it was playing Venice. But that I'm interested to see Mona Fassbult's The World to Come and got great marks for that film, too. Obviously, Vanessa Kirby, we probably talked about her a couple times on the show. Just absolute fucking icon.

Star of Mission Impossible, Fallout and The Crown, two of our favorite things. Just a star and just like absolute instant presence. Just put a camera on her and let her cook. Yeah, she's luminous.

I think Pieces of Woman in particular, I think shows her doing something new too, at least that I haven't seen from her before in terms of the rawness, the modernity of the story, the, the intimate nature really of that movie. And she's already getting obviously a lot of acclaim and it,

you know, it does have a little bit of the feel of that Renee Zellweger thing that you're talking about. She doesn't have the same kind of track record and she's not a previous winner like Renee Zellweger was, but I, you know, sometimes in these things, there's like the inevitability appears more quickly than you might imagine. And at least early in the conversation around this category, there does appear to be some inevitability, at least around her being nominated. And now she has Netflix behind her, which, you know, they're good at this.

They know how to get people recognized for their work. So I expect to see her. mentioned kate winslet i'll be very curious to see how amma night rolls out supposed to open in theaters in november and it's gotten some very very strong reviews and some not so strong reviews some fairly visible mainstream critics kind of felt distanced by the distance. So whether or not she competes, we'll see. I mean, she's obviously not only one of the great actors of our time, but also one of the most recognized actors of our time. She's been nominated a lot.

So can't, can't ever count her out. And then Francis McDormand and, and Francis McDormand is, is an interesting case because only one woman in the history of the Oscars has ever won three Best Actress statuettes. You know who that person is? Katherine Hepburn? That's correct.

Yeah. And so Katherine Hepburn is an icon. She's arguably the most important woman to Oscars history. And Frances McDormand is making a bid for that. And there's definitely a case that she could cruise, especially since, as you said, Nomadland has kind of been coronated as the film to kind of bring back film festival culture, because this film essentially, it effectively debuted at all of the festivals. And so a lot of people who matter have seen it. And a lot of people who will matter in terms of voting are going to see it and it's it has searchlight which searchlight is very very

good at oscar campaigns yeah and i think during the q a that you referenced um francis mcdormand was there and um she did not host it it was john horn i believe who was the moderator but then it was francis mcdormand's show, essentially. And she said during that Q&A that in a lot of ways, her character was an ambassador for the community that they follow. And in the same way she was in that Q&A,

and I think in this process is going to be the ambassador for this community and this film. And that means that she is playing the Oscar game to an extent. And she's playing it in her Frances McDormand way. And I don't mean to make that sound dismissive at all, because what we do here is cover the Oscar game. And people who can speak well and entertainingly and intelligently about their art are my favorite types of people.

But it does seem like she, she's running. It's, it's a, it's another year and another she's running. You know, what's so funny about her. She is an exception to the rule in so many ways,

because in addition to being just one of the great actors, she famously does not really play the game. She doesn't go to as many events. She doesn't campaign in the same way. She has this obvious, no bullshit personality feeling about not just the work that she does, but in interviews, you can see that she is a very like cut to the quick kind of person. And for some people, you know, especially men that might rub some people the wrong way. But with her, I think there is a pure charm factor people just love her they love to hear her talk and the last time we saw her talk really in the oscars context was two and a half years ago on stage accepting a best actress oscar for three billboards and using

the phrase inclusion rider on stage and like yes think about where we are now and what the conversation in hollywood is now in this whole discussion we had earlier this week on, on the, on regarding the Academy Awards. I mean, you know, Frances McDormand, if she wants to be an avatar for that,

she's as good as anybody. And in addition to that, one of my most anticipated movies of the year, and I sure hope it comes out somewhat soon is called the tragedy of Macbeth. It is written and directed by her husband, Joel Cohen, and it stars Frances McDormand and Denzel Washington in an adaptation of Macbeth. It is written and directed by her husband, Joel Cohen, and it stars Frances McDormand and Denzel Washington in an adaptation of Macbeth. Sign me up. So, I mean, that sounds just amazing. And if you get the two shot of that, you know, that just means she's going to be that

much more visible over the next few months. And so we're already in the inevitability conversation that I've started, which shame on me around Vanessa Kirby, but also like can't count on Frances McDormand. She's amazing. So that's three out of five potential nominees already. And we're just a week and a half in the film festival season. And it's two and a half months longer or two months longer. Yeah. Do you have, how many months are we looking at here? So October, November, December, January, February, March, April. Do you have seven full months of Frances McDormand talking to you? Probably. Probably more Frances McDormand than most other people. It's a rich text. I a Frances McDormand Hall of Fame. We've been criticized. I've been criticized for not spotlighting enough women

in the Hall of Fame structure. So maybe we should build her Hall of Fame because she sure has enough films. Yeah, let's do it. That's a good one. Okay, that sounds fun. What's coming up

in the future here in the film festival world? The New York Film Festival effectively starts tomorrow. That's slightly different from Toronto in that it lasts about a month.

And there are not a ton of new films that I think are going to be competing for Oscars that are premiering there. There are a couple of very notable moments, particularly three of five segments of Steve McQueen's new series, which is coming to Amazon. And I believe the BBC, I think it's a partnership, which is called Small Axe. And three of those BBC, I think it's a partnership, which is called small acts. And three of those films, they're essentially full length films are going to be coming to people over the course of the New York film festival.

There's a handful of other things that are debuting that are exciting. So we'll talk a little bit about those and try to similarly not spoil those things over the next few months. And then, you know, I guess, you know, we're getting close to trial of Chicago seven time.

We're getting close to Aaron Sorkin time. So get excited about that. Speaking of trailers, that trailer or teaser trailer, I believe, debuted during one of the sports events this weekend. I honestly couldn't tell you which one because they were on while I was watching movies. But that was one where I saw that it was happening. And I like screamed for my husband to come back into the room because we had to like watch the trailer together. So everything I said about not really caring about trailers goes out the

window for Aaron Sorkin. Yeah, it really does. Um, that's a, that's a big movie for us. So I'm excited to spend some time talking about it. And,

I'm excited to spend some time talking about the big homie, David Fincher, which is what we're going to be doing next week on this show. Holy crap. Am I excited to talk about David Fincher? It's a big moment because we've got the 25th anniversary of seven coming up. We've got David Fincher week coming up on the ringer. We've got some special rewatchables planned and here on the big picture,

we're going to be devoting two full episodes to the man, the myth, the God, David Fincher. You excited, Amanda? I'm really excited. I should apologize to you because I made a lot of noise about you not communicating with me. And then I went to bed at a reasonable hour last night and I woke up and checked my phone and you and Chris Ryan had just like had a conversation about David Fincher for like two hours after I went to sleep that I was a part of. I just couldn't actually be there in the moment to be a part of it. So I am excited to continue that conversation about David Fincher with the two of you. I am too. Thanks, Amanda. Now let's hear a quick word from our sponsor before we get to my conversation with Gerard Bush and Christopher

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to watch wireless with your two-week free trial. That's Quibi spelled Q-U-I-B-I. Delighted to be joined by Gerard Bush and Christopher Renz. Hi guys, how are you? Doing well, how are you? Hanging in there. I got to say this is my first interview on The Big Picture in the last six months with two people who are in the same room together, so I'm just delighted to be not having to throw back and forth to each one of you time to time? Well, you know, we're happy that we could make the experience a little bit less arduous. So happy to help. I'm grateful. I was hoping we could just start at the beginning of your partnership. When did you guys first meet? you um we met over 12 years ago um in miami and uh we really ever since then have been working together we we kind of started out in the advertising world we have an advertising agency

um back in miami and then you know i mean i mean just to give you like we started like we started our agency in 2008 with the idea that eventually we wanted to get to long form storytelling and filmmaking. We didn't think at the time, like one of the first things that we did together was write a short story to make into a script. That was like 2000, beginning of 2008. And we both in the middle of that sort of hard recession felt like, well, that's not going to happen anytime soon. It doesn't feel realistic for us to, you know, think that we can pull that off right now.

But what we can do is start on the advertising side. It was like, if there was ever a strategy to what we were doing, it was definitely creating the advertising agency. But anyway, we were pretty cocky and thought that we hotel suite right on the beach on Ocean Drive that a guy that owned multiple properties, he was desperate to get rid of it and basically rented it to us for next to nothing. And it was directly on the sand. So it made us look like we were really legit and we really didn't have a lot. And the Kardashians were right upstairs from us filming their show. And so it was like a really surreal time when we first started. And we wore these t-shirts that said recession proof. And yeah, so for the first year or so, we really couldn't give ourselves

away. Nothing was happening. And by chance, I ran into someone at an event and I was talking to them about, you know, Bush and Renz trying to sell them on what we do. And he eventually got us a meeting with Moet and Shandone in New York and we beat out all of these big agencies for that business. And that's what turned our lives around. And then business wise and then um it was probably 2016 um 2000 yeah 2015 2015 when we both just had this moment of epiphany and i told i told christopher and we had this beautiful office in the design district in miami we had employees and, you know, there was nothing to complain about other than the fact that we weren't doing what our original tenant, um, you know, that we were going to, uh, engage in change agent sort of filmmaking storytelling. That's what we were after. And we lost sight of that

because then we just got caught up with a business. And I was deeply unhappy because I felt like this wasn't the mission. And that's when we started to engage actively in politics and a lot of political action work. And then eventually that's what led us here to this moment when we moved to LA three years ago. Do you guys remember what it was that you first bonded over? You know, did you, why, and why did you decide to become partners essentially? I mean, we had this, we had this instance, instantaneous connection,

this sense of familiarity. And, and I think we have a set of shared values and an intense love for each other and love for the work but it was what really got me was when i had this idea uh about aliens and and writing about aliens and uh and this in this short story and i was pitching it to see and he was, let's go back and write it. And at that moment I realized, oh, well, that's, that's okay. Like, this is a person who is willing to take this wild ride. And it's just as, um, has just as voracious an appetite for creative. And I, and I love science fiction. Like we haven't, we haven't done that yet. We're going to get into that, um, with our next movie, but, uh, you know,

like in the Isaac Asimov tradition, like, you know, just, just really, um, hungry to tell these sorts of stories. And, and I think we bonded over, um, the kind of, what the fuck, excuse me. Oh, I can't say that. You're kind of like, you can say whatever you feel yeah yeah we we kind of bonded over this like we we love storytelling that has that sort of what the hell is going on kind of element were there filmmakers do you guys connected on people that you looked up to oh yeah uh we both are kubrick fanatics. We both have a penchant for 70s horror, especially elevated horror.

The Stepford Wives, I still find to be the original Stepford Wives. I still find to be one of the most terrifying sort of movies. Body Snatchers. Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Donald Sutherland, I'm obsessed with him. In fact, I stalked him at, I saw him at Art Basel one year in Miami and I followed him around for like,

I thought it was crazy. But yeah, so Kubrick we love. We love Hitchcock. There are not a lot of contemporary directors that were so, you know, I mean, Paul Anderson we think is a brilliant filmmaker, auteur. But like for the most part, we sort of go back. I mean, for me, Spike Lee and some of his earlier work, which I thought was really bold on race, specifically school days which a lot of people um don't talk

about but it was to to deal with the issue of um self-hate within the black community of light skin versus dark skin i thought was really bold and the fact that he put it in sort of a musical vehicle was really interesting to me but yeah we love filmmakers uh just generally speaking we you know um we watch, we watch everything. We'll watch everything from even popcorn horror, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, to The Omen. We like horror a lot. Was it difficult to get people to accept you guys as feature filmmakers

after you know 10 years of working the advertising and music video business what was that like trying to convince people you you deserved this shot well i think um what was very helpful was the script that that we wrote that kind of that I don't think anyone was knocking down our door to direct a feature film for someone else's script. I mean, that we kind of wrote ourselves in in that way. And we were lucky enough that there was a thing or two surrounding our script and kind of it paid some terms. I also think, if I'm being completely honest,

that there was a certain sense of arrogance on our part. We didn't get involved in this business because we thought we couldn't be the best to do it. So we got involved because we saw an opportunity where there wasn't a voice like ours in the market. I think that we kind of went into those conversations with that bravado. But it was just kind of, we wrote, we only are interested in directing what we write. And it's not to say that there aren't really exceptional writers and exceptional books that we are interested in. It's just that we want to have an intimate connection to the material, which, which means

that it's only our interpretation. And so it's not like you already have enough people on the studio side with the producers. You know, there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen, which is where you end up with so much in the way of, meh, it's kind of milquetoast when it's finished. And so with us, it's really difficult to argue a very specific vision that we wrote word for word. And so we weren't about to give away our work to anyone. I applaud people that have the courage to give it, you know, recognize that they can't handle the responsibility of child raising and they give up their child for adoption. I think that's really courageous. I see this writing as

like our children and, you know, I'm going to keep them and we're going to take it all the way through and make sure that they are born into the world in the way that they can be the most successful you know i'm so interested in writing and directing duos and how you guys do things together how do you how do you write together well a couple things uh i'm a morning person uh and really cheery in the morning and ready to go at like you know i'm writing at 7 30 christopher is nocturnal um and so it's kind of opposite i do my pages i'm done i'm pretty much spent by lunchtime and then christopher you know it depends you know you might start at like 10 at night yeah and right from 10 to you know 3 30 4.30 in the morning. But we also get into, we have this rule about there's no crying in baseball because we get in knockdown, drag out sort of fights about the things that are really important to us. And we agree 99.9% of the time, but that little percentage that we don't, we, um, we can, we can, we can, we can dig in and then it, then it becomes a,

it kind of works out well because we have all of our knockdown drag out fights alone in the house while writing. So that by the time we're on set and directing, we both know exactly what we want. So it's, it's one vision. And then on the directing side, it's so much easier to be together because the writing side, we constructed the roadmap, you know, for the entire movie. And we know it backwards and forwards. And we know exactly what we want.

And we're obsessive compulsive. And right down to, you know, the brand of lipstick that one of the characters is going to be carrying. We are very specific. So even in the way that we write the script, the script, I would say most people have said in reading our scripts that they're intensely descriptive because we know exactly. Let's say, God forbid, something happened to us and we left the script behind. The script would give you exactly to the precise detail like

you know the production designer was very happy yeah like we like we talk about you know um you know when we describe a day and it's like it's the gloaming and the sun was burnt orange and you know there were seven dragonflies that were, you know, floating in her wake. You know, we just are very specific about what we want. What about the actual directing? Do you guys have different roles on set? Is one person the shouters? One person talk to the actors? How do you delineate your responsibilities? I mean, we're pretty much side by side throughout the entire process, you kind of have to be because otherwise, someone's coming at one person with a question and you're not, you know,

together. But, um, you know, it's, it also varies, because there are some delicate moments with actors and two guys come and rushing in with notes is kind of too much so then we'll kind of decide you know it probably makes sense for you to walk in on this wander and and we both and we're both just personality wise we couldn't be more different um but yet the same so i'm uh you know we're both kind of chronically shy, but we, we attack the shyness in different ways. And mine is to be intensely gregarious and not to be afraid and to just go at it. And Christopher is much more reserved and internal that way.

And so in conversations with actors, because we love actors, I mean, they're the ones who bring the work to life. And, you know, sometimes you have to be, you have to serve as their therapist. And sometimes you have to, you have to walk them through sort of the challenges of some of this work because our work can be pretty challenging. And so you got to be smart about, do you, do you send a sledgehammer in or a scalpel? And, and you have to read the room and know the moment. And so I think if we're ever separated, it would be like that we're 10 feet away because, you know,

one of us has had to go on set and have a delicate conversation. And we, to Christopher's point and we're two dudes we don't want to crowd you know our people you know and the only time we really separated was getting that first uh one or right because one of us had to be you know with the steadicam and the other at the monitor and then we would switch and go back and forth to make sure we were getting exactly wrong it's kind of challenging. Can you tell me about where the idea for the movie came from? Because I think obviously a lot of people are going to say,

oh, this is such an impression tale and think about the world that we're living in right now. But obviously this started years ago. So when did it first begin? So I didn't, I had concerns about moving to Los Angeles because I had tried it before. It was a very short stint and I found Los Angeles to be an experience of unrequited love where I really loved it and it didn't love me and I, didn't want to come back for that. And my dad had died quite suddenly, a little less than a year prior to our moving to LA. And I wasn't processing it well. And my parents had been married for 40 years. And I was trying to help my mother and my sister and my family to try to, you know,

get through this really horrific, traumatizing experience of not having dad. And then my best friend in the world and brother, who was a surfer and very cool. And he was one of the bonuses of moving to LA that we were going to get to spend more time with him. He lived in Venice. And then he died suddenly. And it was just like a lot on me. And then our beloved boxer, Cooper, she was diagnosed with brain cancer and she had like three months to live. And it just seemed like this was a horrible idea and nothing was going right. And I had this terrible nightmare and the nightmare, I was not the star of my dream. And I'm normally always the star of my own dream, but I was witnessing this woman who was in the most horrific circumstance. And she was screaming for help in a way that felt so real that it was cross-dimensional. And when, like, I was so convinced that this was someone that was begging for my help and that they had communicated with me

in a psychic way that I got up and I wanted to share it. And I said, okay, well, I'll just, I'll write it down. I'll talk about it. Let's see in the morning. And I was just about to go back to sleep and something nudged me and forced me to go to my notepad on my phone. I wanted to avoid that because once I look at the light of the phone, it screws me up and it makes it difficult for me to go back to sleep. But something said, you've got to do this. So I wrote down every detail of the dream. And that is essentially the short story that is antebellum that C and I wrote together that then ended up becoming the script. He told me about the dream in the morning and we wrote the short story the same day. Then we adapted our own short story into the script. What was it like that? I mean, it's hard to even explain to someone

the dream you had the night before. So how do you make that into something that is legible in a movie? I find it difficult just to explain what I had for breakfast in the morning. So how do you make that clear to you, Christopher christopher um i don't know it was it was very clear it was detailed i mean it was down to her well no but we don't want to it's very detailed from you know i have vivid dreams so they're you know their big name of the the film was in the dream so i mean it was it was down to to that detail it was just kind of look i don't i without without you know i don't want to alienate um uh people with what i'm about to say but at the same time i think it's really important um to to remain grounded in truth and authenticity and and i i

believe that that the ancestors seeded that story. I believe that it's beyond explanation and that it felt like something supernatural. And given where we are at this latest inflection point in America's story, the fact that the movie has now become so prescient that, I mean, we could never have predicted that, but it's, it's, it feels like it took a life of its own and it had its own destiny, its own journey. And our responsibility as artists where this inspiration is entrusted to you

is to serve as responsible stewards and to make sure that you can put the art together and put it out into the world in a responsible manner. And then it takes a life of its own. I don't want to give anything away for people who see the movie because there's obviously a lot of twists and turns, but the structure of the story is not exactly what I was expecting. It's pretty surprising and unconventional. And I know that dreams can sometimes be that way. They can sometimes not necessarily be linear or they can not necessarily be logical. But I mean, is as much of the film and the choices that you

made in terms of telling that story all directly from that night that you had? Or did you guys find that you had to kind of expand what was in your head we had to expand we definitely expect i mean the the the dream we we drew a lot um from the dream for the first and the third act but the second act we reconstructed from scratch so hard to not ask you a question about the second act yeah um what about in terms of putting the cast together how did you guys decide that janelle should be the star you know what's funny is uh c and i are music fanatics um you know everything from like rush moving pictures to like you know janelle monae we love music. But Janelle, her album, Many Moons, it sort of served as a soundtrack for the genesis of Bush and Renz when we first got together. But we never considered, and this is with all due respect, we never considered a pop star to be the lead in our movie. We wanted

someone that was completely dedicated to the craft of acting. And that wasn't so much of a polymath, but someone who was really grounded in specifically that craft. And we share an agency at WME and someone had brought Janelle to our attention in looking at her within the context of being the lead in the movie. And then we started kicking around the idea, but it was when we saw her sitting in the audience of the Grammys in 2018. And I don't know what she was looking at, but she had this stoic expression. And by, by that, I mean to be really specific, it gave away nothing,

but it was hiding a furnace that was burning deep and bright that she couldn't keep it from the surface. And at that moment we realized only Janelle Monae could be Veronica Henley. Like it was her. And I think when people see her in this film, they will recognize someone who became so completely possessed by the character that it's hard to find when Janelle begins and Veronica ends. They're all kind of together. So we're so thankful that we got over ourselves and saw Janelle Monet, the extraordinary artist that she is as an actress.

I think that there is just as much gift in the acting for what she did in our particular movie as there is in, in her music. So we're thankful for that. Gabourey, um, as Dawn, we never really considered anyone else. Um,

she's just, she's fantastic in the movie. Yeah. She's just as a human being. If you, when, if, and when you ever,

or if you have already had a chance to talk to her, um, Gabourey is literally sunshine in human form. She, there's a feeling that you get when you're around her. That's so authentic and honest and beautiful. And we just love her. Jack Houston, you know, we spoke to him on the phone. Our casting director, Lorraineay mayfield is from the deep

south and she is a glass of jack daniels with no chaser um and she you know tells you like it is and she you know made certain recommendations tone guy we had not heard of who plays eli and she said there's really no one else for this role. And she sent us a tape on a Friday. We were campaigning with the studio all weekend because it was such a major role for someone unknown. And we were like,

we're unknown. So it would make perfect sense, you know, like give him a shot. So Tongai, what an extraordinary talent. And Eric Lang, I think we're just, we're really happy with how determined we were in our choices to get who we wanted and to debate it vigorously with the studio you've got this pretty wild balancing act between some sophisticated filmmaking you know you and you mentioned the sort of the one or at the top of the movie and there's a lot of there's a lot of moves and you guys have a lot of style and then obviously this very very heavy subject matter so i was kind of curious if you could describe the energy the atmosphere of the set when you're making a movie that is this heavy and at times this dark and violent and also trying to do something that is in its own way kind of beautiful. So for us, what was really important is remembering that beauty doesn't pause for horror. And that oftentimes beauty and horror

live simultaneously in the same space in the same time. And I'll use 9-11 as a perfect example of one of the most horrific days in American history. That day in New York City was pristine. It was 72 degrees and not a cloud in the sky when horror came to pay a visit. And so what was really important to went so far as to pretty much demand that we get the lenses from Gone with the Wind.

So we had to find them. We had to negotiate, you know, getting the lenses. Get them to our camera. Then we had to get the camera, like the recalibration of the camera. That took 10 weeks. But we wanted for people to get a sense of these beautiful silhouettes that we could only get from these particular lenses that give you that gone with the wind feeling, especially at the gloaming sunset shots. We also insisted upon shooting on a real plantation. And that in and of itself was really traumatizing for all of us. And it felt like an open air. It was hollow ground. And

much of the time you talked earlier about yelling. There was none of that because we were really respectful of the space. In fact, we insisted upon building replicas of the enslaved people's cabins because we didn't want to desecrate that disrespect those spaces but at the same time those replicas were right in the same rogue so so the actors were right there everyone was right there but yeah everyone was speaking kind of hushed tone we would whisper respectful i don't know if you've ever been to mere woods like like for me whenever i go to mere woods or the redwoods like i find myself whispering like i mean like it feels it feels like you're not supposed like you know what i mean it's just so sacred um and that's how that's how this felt it felt really sacred and people were i think everyone on the set was was really respectful you know you guys mentioned the stepford wives and kaufman's body snatchers and that moment in the 70s when

there seemed to be some kind of heavy intentionality with the horror that was happening at the time. It seems like there's obviously a moment right now with Jordan Peele's films, The Invisible Man to some extent. There's a purposefulness to a lot of horror right now. I don't know if you guys are even defining your movie as horror. I wonder if you even think that's the right category for this. But, you know, what do you make of all of these movies kind of happening at the same time and being bunched together at times too? I mean, I think, well, the horror label has been put on it.

It's kind of a thriller, social horror in that. But yeah, I mean, I think it's fantastic, the resurgence of horror with a message and a meaning and a reason. uh that's kind of one of the biggest benefits i think of the horror genre for us for this specific story is that we're not really preaching to the choir it's not a documentary with everyone that already agrees the message can get out there to folks who may not have, you know, intentionally tried to seek it out. We also find finger wagging movies to be abhorrent. We're just not like interested in those precious

sort of like preachy movies. You know, at the end of the day, ultimately, our responsibility is to thrillingly entertain. And if you haven't done that with the art first and foremost, then that's not moviemaking as far as we're concerned. So, you know, I think Jordan, what he did that was so interesting and sort of opened the door for the possibility of looking at black horror in a different way. You know, essentially if you, if you, if you look at Get Out,

it's a combination of invasion of the body snatchers and the Stafford wives, except with black people and stealing black, black consciousness, right? Black bodies rather. With, with Antebellum, youum you know our thought and i hope that that what you see with antebellum is is a graduation or an evolution it's not for us to stay there it's for us to continue pushing the envelope um and and taking uh audience, the movie going audience into uncharted territory. So the movie was obviously made to be shown in theaters. I know that you guys have obviously not able to show it in theaters. I really wish I could have seen it in a movie theater because obviously what you did, what you shot is beautiful and feels very grand.

And hearing you talk about using the gun with the wind lenses, I mean, there's obviously a lot of purpose and intentionality there. So, you know, on the other hand, a lot of people are going to get to see the movie, probably more people than would be able to see the movie since it's coming home. So how are, how are you both feeling about the movie not going into movie theaters? I mean, I think we, you know, we, we are huge fans of the theaters. I mean, that's we, our intention from the beginning was for it to be in theaters. And, you know, we pushed it back a couple times trying to stay out now. We feel like now is the time for it. We could have pushed it back to mid 2021, later next year,

but we really feel like it's necessary to come out now. And so, you know. When we wrote our letter to the DGA, asking them to accept us as a duo, I wrote about being seven years old and demanding that my parents take me to the only theater in Houston, Texas

that still had the curtain over the screen, Majestic Metro Theater. And if I couldn't make it there in time to see the curtains open, I would throw myself on the floor in the aisle of the theater. Really, I was crazy.

So if that gives you any indication about how passionate we are about movies and the theatrical experience, it was incredibly disappointing. But at the same time, we felt like we had no right to complain about anything when there is so much suffering going on with people not having jobs with covid wreaking havoc on the country it just feels really um inappropriate to find upset in well you know our our movie is only going to get to more people like on screen at home. Like it just seemed inappropriate. But also we're in theater.

We're going to be in theaters all over Europe and Asia and internationally. It's just opening like it would here because they can still have nice things. But, you know, we don't know how to act so we don't get nice things. But like, you know, just anchoring it in the sort of international theatrical release that does, it's like a soothing balm, and it makes us feel a little bit better about it. The last thing we wanted was for people to come to the theater to get the medicine and to get the thrill and then get sick. And I would never be able to forgive myself if even one person became deathly ill from

COVID to go and see our movie. I just couldn't live with myself. Like we couldn't get, I couldn't get beyond that. And the studies that we did on the air conditioning systems and how it works and anti-maskers. Every time I go out, I wear my mask. Christopher wears his mask to protect ourselves and others. And if I'm sitting in a movie theater and someone just decides to make a political statement in a movie that's very political, I'm not going to wear my mask.

And it's going to make everyone in the theater really uncomfortable. And they can't even focus on the movie. So as we started thinking about all these things, it seemed like a no-brainer. It makes sense. I appreciate it. We've thought about that a lot on this show too. Guys, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers

what's the last great thing they've seen. Have you guys been watching anything good in quarantine? I mean, in terms of shows or movies, anything you want, really. I mean, I think,

well, Ozark was very helpful in quarantine. It was fantastic. The last movie we saw in the theater was Invisible Man, which was great. Memorable because it was the last. The last, you know,

the last movie that I saw that I devoured, that I didn't expect for it to be as entertaining as it was, was The Rental. And it was super, Franco did a great job of like a super genre Airbnb nightmare.

And it was popcorn worthy. and i was thankful to have it because you know you just spend hours trying to find anything you know to watch and now there's nothing now there's you have to go to criterion channel and like go into like the old library and find things that That's true. The rental was, was a great surprise. It reminded us of the invitation. We love the great movie,

right? Like the car and Kusama movie. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, those are great picks. And I think, um,

when antebellum comes to people's homes, they're going to be grateful for it too. So thanks for doing the show guys. Oh, thank you. We appreciate it so much. Thank you to Gerard Bush, Christopher Renz, and Amanda Dobbins and Bobby Wagner.

Thanks for listening to The Big Picture. See you next week when it's David Fincher week.