The Big Picture - ‘The Phoenician Scheme’ Is Here, With Wes Anderson!

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Sean and Amanda take a deep dive into one of their favorite directors' newest films: Wes Anderson’s ‘The Phoenician Scheme.’ They discuss the new themes Anderson tackles that he typically avoids, celebrate the phenomenal performances from Michael Cera and Mia Threapleton, and discuss how a second viewing can unlock a better understanding of the movie’s ideas (1:36). Then, for the first time in Big Picture history, Wes Anderson joins the show to discuss the movie, the connective tissue across his filmography, and how he experiments in new projects (50:37). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Wes Anderson Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're gonna love so make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go! It's the summer big red sale at Canadian Tire! Save up to 50%! What are you doing?

These are the biggest deals of the season! I'm shouting it from the rooftop! We have a radio ad you don't need to be up there. The summer big red sale is on from June 5 to June 12. Conditions apply. Details online. Woo. Ding. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is the big picture. A conversation show about Wes Anderson. On this episode, we will dive deep into the Phoenician scheme, the latest film from Anderson, a portrait of an aging tycoon, his daughter, and the financial plot binding them together. Later in this episode, for the first time in Big Picture history, Wes Anderson joins me to talk about his work, this new movie, how having a family influenced his work. I'm very excited. I hope people will listen to our conversation. Wes is of course an icon to the big picture, so it was pretty cool.

What can you give me a preview of the fit? Simply a white button down shirt, button all the way to the top, long collar and and immaculately coiffed hair. That was pretty much it. We were on Zoom, but it was quite nice. That's great. Let's just do it. Let's just dig into the Phoenician scheme. So it's a holiday here.

Yeah, I mean, his movies are very important to us. He may or may not figure into this project that we've been working on somewhere down the list. Oh yeah. I can't even remember. Oh yeah, he does. But I like, I, my heart stopped for a moment. Spoiler alert.

Sorry. I was just like, Oh God, we forgot Wes. And then no, no, it worked out. It worked out. It's good. Um, so it was exciting when he gets a new movie. This movie is a bit of the same, a bit different. And it's an interesting story.

As I said, it is about a tycoon and aging businessman named Zsa Zsa Korda, who appoints his only daughter, who is an aspiring nun to be... A novitiate. A novitiate, thank you. She's going to be the sole heir to his estate, despite the fact that he also has nine sons. Korda embarks on this new enterprise and they soon become the target of all of his rivals in the world of business and international espionage. And they go on some hijinks. There's a lot of adventures.

This is a very chapterized Wes Anderson movie as they have been frankly forever. Incredible cast in this movie, which is often the case now in his movies. Benicio is the star. Michael Cera is in this movie. Riz Ahmed, Tom Hanks, Brian Cranston, Matthew Almerich, Richard Iowati, Jeffrey Wright, Scarlett Johansson, Benedict Cumberbatch, Rupert Friend, Hope Davis,

and an actress I'd not seen before, Mia Threepleton, who is the daughter in the film. So, I think we'll go pretty far in on this movie. It's a lot of movie to take in. You saw it last night, I saw it a second time with you last night. What'd you think of the Phoenician scheme? I mean, just a really big time for you as a daughter of fathers. Really very exciting.

Girl Dead Cinema has come to West Anderson. No, I loved it. Come on. I'm excited to talk to you about it because you've seen it twice. And as a result, some of your takeaways in this document are very different than mine. I found this movie to be extremely funny. And it, to me, like, plays as a comedy with bigger ideas, either going on or being gestured at, or there for the taking if you want them,

but you can watch it as a caper, and it plays really well. I thought both Benicio del Toro and Mia Threepelten were lights out. As, I'm like, they have to be, because it is about them. It is, it's not a two-hander. It has everyone that you just mentioned, but like, they carry the story. And I think this role was written for Benicio del Toro.

And he is amazing. I think this is the best part he's had in a long time. Maybe since Sicario. And, you know, as with like all Wes Anderson things amazing. I think this is the best part he's had in a long time. Maybe since the cario. And you know, as with like all Wes Anderson things that there are, it's, there's a lot going on in the frame and it's like highly designed and deadpan and funny. And then also, you know, if you're on his frequency, like very soulful and there's a lot of longing, bad dads, grief, all that.

So it's like, a lot of there, it was, in some ways it was seeing all the Wes Anderson furniture like rearranged in a new way. And I don't mean that as a detriment. I mean that as like- Such beautiful furniture. Well, it's beautiful furniture. And it's also like, you enter his world

and it's like, okay, what are we talking about this time? And how are we gonna do it? And how is it gonna make us feel? And I find that exhilarating. So I'm a huge fan. You could say that this started with the Grand Budapest Hotel, but for me, the last three films now,

the French Dispatch, Asteroid City, and this film, I had the same viewing experience the first time, which is that I was immediately comfortable. I think that the color and the design of his worlds and the way that he frames them, literally the acting style, I'm on board with all of it. A lot of people are not on board with it at this point, and that's fine.

But if you are on board with it, you're happy. But I found myself trying to catch my breath to keep up with the pace and the amount of character and story that he's jamming into these movies. And his movies are one hour and 40 minutes essentially. They're not these kind of epics. And so the first time I saw this film,

I really enjoyed myself, but I wasn't sure that I could really get my arms around it. Thematically, I laughed at all the jokes. I do agree that there's a lot of physical comedy and a lot of violence-focused comedy in this movie, which is a new flavor for him. But the second time I saw it, I was like, this is a huge thematic film. Same thing with Asteroid City. We talked about it with Asteroid City,

where it's like, you watch it the first time, there's a ton going on, there's a lot of familiar faces, it's this expansive new world, intergalactic story. And then the second time you watch it, you're like, this is a very simple story about longing and regret and the inability to connect with people. This movie was the same thing for me the second time I saw it. I was like, this is a very deep story.

This is a barely shaded autobiography at times about relationships in his life. The film is dedicated to his father-in-law, Fuad Malouf, and the Benicio character is clearly, in some ways, modeled on him. His father-in-law was a Lebanese businessman who had a kind of grand stature. And I would say Benicio has that, but also has this, like, self-undermining quality to him because of the relationship with his daughter. Which is a very profound feeling when you have a daughter.

I talked to Wes about that. He said Roman Coppola, his co-writer on the movie has that. Yeah, it's palpable. It's a thing. You are the daughter of a father. Sure, but even in the movie, it's, you know, and it's... I think you started with French Dispatch because French Dispatch, Astroid City, and now this movie are almost like, kind of nesting dolls in their form.

It is like a new trilogy. There's a story within a story within a story and there are, and the way that you're learning about things, you know, has had like the literal, you know, frameworks, like sometimes as a painting that he wants to put on things in movies. But there is so much going on and there are not different storylines, but different frameworks for lack of a different word. But this is also in spite of all that, like really just a father and a daughter. And it can be about geopolitics and it can be about the Bible and it can be about regret and like it is about all those things, but it is very purely at the end,

just him trying to figure out his relationship with this young woman. And it is, I think, really affecting and lovely in that way. I agree. I was quite moved by it, like I said, especially the second time that I saw it. We should talk about each of those things

that you located, because I think they're all right. I think all of those ideas are in the movie. I do think that this movie, unlike the previous two, while it does have a series of stacked frameworks on top of each other and all of these chapter headings and this actual scheme that you're kind of like mathematically following as the movie goes along, it's very linear.

It's not, let's go back to the old framework that we were setting you up with, that the story inside the story or the TV show that is presenting the play that we were writing to get us with the story inside the story or the TV show that is presenting the play that we were writing to get us to the story. Or let's go back to this article that was written some years ago that reflects the inner life of the journalist that we're talking about.

This is a story about a man and his daughter and what is going to happen to the future of his business in this plot that he has. And that's pretty much it. And the movie that it reminds me of the most in his career is The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou. Yes. So Life Aquatic also a father and a son story, but in this extravagant, elaborate world that

is a mission story. It is like a road movie, an adventure story where you're kind of going from one place to another to accomplish something together and figure out how these two people who have been estranged, this is again a story of estrangement, can be reunited emotionally. And even when I was talking to Wes, I was thinking about how like my opinion on Darjeeling Limited has kind of changed a lot over the years and I really didn't get it and like it and I thought like it was like over for me and Wes Anderson when I saw that movie. And I thought Steve's Life Aquatic was like the best movie ever when I saw it and I've

kind of gotten further away from it. Those are both like deep 20 somethingsomething feelings also, by the way. They are. But that's such a misanthropic movie, and I didn't think that was really in his spirit at all. I've come to understand life and his work very differently over time. But Life Aquatic, that movie's a long time ago. And the fact that he can do all these new things, with this new turn to violence,

this honestly, I thought, genuinely political point of view that the movie has about the way the power operates in the world, but also still be able to return to these core themes and feelings that have been defining his work for the last 25, 30 years. Right. It's like, that to me is like the stuff of a great artist, you know, that he is someone who knows how to be forward-looking

and also be connected to the past stories that he's told. And so, I think I don't want to be too defensive about the like, West needs to find a new slant or whatever conversation around this movie, but there are some people who are like, I'm a little sick of the diorama approach. And I'm going the other way now with him, where I'm like, go further and go deeper.

Like, push harder, find something else that is even weirder than what you're doing right now. Wait, he is just such a singular filmmaker, and especially to our generation. It's like, you know you're in a West movie, one second in, and I think very few filmmakers, like, kind of have that buy-in where they have managed to create an entire film language, or, you know, very few filmmakers of our generation.

So, like, just keep doing it. Like, keep, you know, very few filmmakers of our generation. So like, just keep doing it. Like keep, you know, making your own little worlds. I was going to make some sort of like video game reference, but I don't play video games, but it does seem like, you know, that my understanding of it is like you create this other space and just like keep going. What else can you find? Yeah. And I, and I'm once you've bought the ticket into the space, which I have, I'm good.

I'm with you. Yeah. I think there is obviously an opportunity for him creatively to do slightly different things without abandoning the worlds that he has created. I think of Hotel Chevalier, the short film attached to Darjeeling Limited where it's like tonally, that's a very kind of like sad, angry French film inside of an American adventure story about brothers. This movie, it looks a lot like the pageantry

of Asteroid City and French Dispatch, but I'm trying to figure out like what is it that makes it so meaningfully different to me, aside from that linear quality. I think some of it is like... It's... Antic-ness... is really, really high energy. The movie opens with a plane crash,

and before the plane crash, there's a violent explosion... Yeah. ...on a plane. That's true, but it's like... It's like Looney Tunes. Yeah, it's Wes Anderson violent. It's like Paper Mache, you know? It's beautiful and funny, and also,

definitely you see one half of a person's body at the end of it. Um, I think that there's... The decision is really fun, and it makes it... I think that people would accuse some of his movies of being cartoons, but this one's actually closer to being a cartoon in terms of the execution across the board. Like there's a moment that I clocked immediately after the plane crash early in the movie,

where all of the items that are on the plane are sort of scattered in a cornfield. And Benicio del Toro's character is always reading, and there are all of these books. There's these sort of like non-fiction guides to flowers and insects and ancient civilizations. Yeah, they're all like classical and many of them are art texts as well. Which is kind of dovetails neatly with this theme that is going throughout the movie of the kind of the great works and then who has access to the great works. There's a very memorable title sequence in the movie in which after surviving a plane

crash, we're told it's his sixth plane crash that JaJa Korda has survived, that he has tended to in his, in a bathtub and all of his servants are surrounding him. It's an overhead shot. It's great. It's the title sequence. So the title sequence is very cool. And all of these nurses are tending to him and he's smoking a cigar and being patched up and I guess he's in sort of like a milk bath, like a salt milk bath and Stravinsky is playing and he's given scrimmled eggs and champagne. Yes.

And so he's like wounded and living the good life. And it's like that perfect contrast of this is a man of high taste who's like a real motherfucker. He's a rapscallion. And why is he doing these things? And is he doing them for the right reasons? And can we like get emotionally invested in rooting for this guy to succeed? But, you know, it's it's intoxicating when someone who might not be such a good person has great taste and kind of knows what the like the greatest of the world

can be. And has charisma also, which is like the Wes Anderson, like, archetype of all. You know, like, bad dad, for lack of a better word. Though, I guess they are technically, by our parenting textbook standards, all bad dads. But I don't even think for a minute... The movies love them from the very beginning. And so you, as an audience member, whether it's Royal Tenenbaum

or whether it's, you know, whatever Bill Murray character you want, including in this one, God. And literally... Yes. A vengeful trickster God played by Bill Murray. These older men, these authority figures who have not always done the appropriate thing, but, you know, glide through the world with such panache

that you would just want to be closer to them. Yeah. I like the way that he frames the sort of like unease that he has around his daughter. Cause very quickly after he survives his plane crash, he brings her back into his life. She's studying as a novitiate to be a nun, and he wants her to be the heir.

And he has to kind of just convince her to drop God. And this is happening simultaneous to these visions that he starts having in the film. Right. And there's a completely different kind of filmmaking style, black and white, different aspect ratio. And you see that Benicio, maybe because he's just

had too much brain trauma, that he is starting to confront his mortality almost literally amongst the tribunal of faith. I mean it sort of looks like the pearly gates, you know? Like there is some sort of like dais where various religious authority figures, yes, William Defoe, F. Murray, Abraham. Charlotte Gainsbourg, at some point. You know, they're all, and they're very solemn. And it like, definitely, there's a trial aspect to it.

So I just assumed it was kind of, I almost took it, it's like, because he's died six times. And it's sort of like, you know, like each time you almost make it in, and then kind of what was the discussion before you get sent back? And so, you know, this movie, which is about this father and daughter and their relationship, and it's about this man trying to achieve this mission, is also really like a movie about mortality and facing death, you know?

And that being on Wes's mind is really interesting. Obviously, it's not the first time he's addressed the subject, but maybe not so literally where you've got a guy confronting physically the prospect of going into the afterlife. Right. I mean, characters have died. And also, like, Asteroid City is very much about grief. But it's from this, you know, it's from the people, perspective of the people left behind.

Right. As opposed to this, which is the main character kind of dancing with it. Yeah, and I think it's also a movie that like made by a middle-aged guy thinking about the decisions he's made up until this point. You know, like that big part of the movie is Ja-Ja being forced to try to remember what happened. For example, like one of the key disputes between he and his daughter

is that it's believed that Jasa Zsa killed her mother. They say. Yes, they say. Whoever they, what are their names so I can sue them for libel. Great memory, great moment in the movie. It's a very funny movie. Great VCO moment. And this idea that like Zsa Zsa almost like can't remember the details of what happened

to his wives and lovers over time or like he's kind of shading the truth in that way that powerful people sometimes do, where it'll be like, it'll be like a hard denial and then a vague comment connected to that denial that is just a very observant piece of writing. And then there's, I'm reluctant to be like, this movie is about Donald Trump because it's not about Donald Trump. It's not specifically about the American president right now, but there is a kind

of mode of leadership that is happening in the world. I asked Wes about this more or less confirmed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is like, these people kind of get away with whatever they want and they like lie all the way to the end and they hurt people and it kind of usually works out for them. Sometimes it doesn't, but for the most part it does. And this is the way that the world works, deal with it.

Um, even though it's an antique madcap fun, also sentimental drama, it does have a bit of that in it. What did you make of that part of it? I mean, I did the Trump stuff did not jump out to me, but that's probably willful at this point. I'm, you know, blacken it wherever possible. Um, it is obviously politically engaged as well as also there is a lot of probably willful at this point, I'm, you know, blocking it wherever possible. It is obviously politically engaged as well as also, there is a lot of religion in this as well,

which I thought was interesting and I like wanna talk about because those are two things that he doesn't typically confront like in text, like using the words. And- Yep, politics and faith and even capitalism are not really like big focuses on this work. Yeah. And there are some images in the Bible, the Bible scenes that are clearly very much engaged with just like money and how it works. And so I think, I think I did grab parallels to the world now, but for me

because this is like a retro, you know, as all Wes Anderson films are, they're set like in another world, 50s to 70s, that is a better version of the one that existed, but also still like has all of the problems. And... Very well put. Because it's set in the 50s, I thought it was more a little bit like this is both how it is and how it's always been. If there's any sense to that. So I didn't immediately tie it to present headlines specifically,

which was a great relief and reprieve. But yeah, I did feel that sense of commenting on the way the world works and the way that certain people luck into things or take things. And then everyone else was left behind as a result. The movie is also a showcase for a person that I'm sure most people who are watching it must have thought to themselves, surely Michael Cera has been in 10 Wes Anderson movies and he's never been in a Wes Anderson movie. Even though in some ways he is sort of the prototype for the Wes Anderson performance style.

I'll say this really lived up to my expectations of Michael Cera in a Wes Anderson movie. I think he's incredibly funny in this film. He's presented in the film as a tutor and is it an entomologist? Etymologist? What is the study? Someone who studies bugs? Entomology. Entomologist sounded right. But let's, yeah. Entomologist studies insects. Bingo.

Yes. Born in Oslo. His name is Bjorn. He's doing that accent all the way through. Dressed and styled hilariously, often in crushed velvet and corduroys, and he's got a swoop of curly blonde dyed hair. And he perhaps unsurprisingly falls in love with Shaja's daughter. And he's given a lot to do in this movie. Who's named Liesl by the way. And like there is a whole sound of music.

There are several references, which I appreciate. Did you see her Swiss passport, by the way, on the plane? Yeah, of course. And like, her name's Liesl. You know, that's the daughter. Anyway. I really liked Michael Cera. I hope this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship for he and Wes. Apparently, they met each other 20 years ago and just never got around to getting together,

even though he's been working with every other actor that is like him in that time. And yeah, let's talk about Mia Threepleton. Um, so this is Kate Winslet's daughter. Which ones you know it is unmistakable. I didn't know it until last night, after I saw the movie. So I've seen it twice, and I didn't know.

And in my head, I thought to myself, Thre time. So I've seen it twice. Wow. And I didn't know. And in my head I thought to myself, Threepleton, that's a familiar name. I remember there was, there is a Jim Threepleton. I didn't, I was kind of putting it together, but when I was watching the movie, no, but exactly what you just said is how I felt,

which is I read it and I was like, oh, yeah, fuck yeah it is. That like so clearly is. The performance style, the tone of her voice, the sort of like the gravity that she has as a performer, it's unmistakable. And I don't mean to take anything away from her. She's like amazing in it and holding her own against this like, just absolutely...

Like, charismatic Benicio del Toro, just not scene eating, like scenery eating, but like energy eating. He holds the screen. Yeah. He's a real star. And... Like scenery eating, but like energy eating. He holds the screen. Yeah. He's a real star. And she is funny. She's got the timing. She has the real presence, which, and like she has the Kate Winslet presence

and also kind of the jawline. So when you know, you can really see it, but it is, it's uncanny in like the best way when you understand because she clearly has the same thing that makes Kate Wensland a great actress. Yeah, I really, I mean, her chemistry with both Sarah and Del Toro is really impressive to extremely seasoned actors. She had appeared in a couple things prior to this,

but I never clocked her before. She's also wearing the nun's habit the whole time, or the officiates' habit the whole time. Most of the time. Then she has wearing the nun's habit the whole time. Right. Or the officiates' habit the whole time. Most of the time. Then she has sort of like Prince Valiant hair. Yes, we see her here in a couple of small moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the movie itself, once we've kind of established

this journey that they need to go on to develop the literal Phoenician scheme, where there's going to be the construction of, so here's the thing about these movies. Yeah. There is a plot and the plot... It happened so fast. And in voice... Who was doing the voiceover?

It was a name... It was a voice that you had recognized, but now I've forgotten. I genuinely can't even remember. Or maybe it was newsreels. Anyway, it happened so fast that I had the moment, like seven minutes, and I was like, oh, fuck. I just missed the setup of the Phoenicians game. I'm like, oh god, how am I so I appreciated that then I like the

The chapter breakdowns and I guess the the things that people find annoying were very helpful to me and a basic Okay, so now we're going to see this character and now we're that's like earmarks along the way of where this story is going, because I didn't understand. What was the Phoenician scape? It was like a dam and also a train. It looks like it's an attempt to build... A giant public works project. Yes, well, I don't know, but not public, probably private, in conjunction with the, you know,

royal king of Phoenicia. Of lower something Phoenicia. Yes. They specified. It is an attempt to build a giant structure that makes an enormous amount of money for these international industrialists. That's what's a movie about international industrialists, which doesn't sound very appealing on paper and yet is incredibly amusing. And so the journey that he has to go on is to kind of continue to raise these funds

to accomplish this scheme, which seems like a fairly faulty plan. And then along the way, we find that Zsa Zsa is a relatively untrustworthy businessman, someone who is constantly fiddling with it, as they say throughout the movie, changing the parameters of each deal. Well, but Rupert Friend and his band of faceless bureaucrats also were fiddling with it.

Dramatically undermining him because of the bashable rivets and the way that they have shifted their value in the marketplace. Of course, normal. It's really funny that he keeps building out these really ornate stratagems around the movies, but that the movies themselves, they don't even need that. You know what I mean? By the time he gets to the end of the movie're like, did it work or did it not work? Yeah.

That's not really the point of what matters is the relationships and the way that you feel about the characters. But it matters a little bit in this one. It does, but the outcome, you sort of feel like they would have gotten to that place no matter whether it had worked or not. That the relationship is what ultimately was most, uh, most under threat and that preserving it and, and, and protecting it was what mattered. So it does lead to this kind of episodic series of encounters

with various people along the way. We start with Prince Farouk played by Riz Ahmed that invariably leads to a meeting with the Sacramento Boys portrayed by Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks. This then leads to a basketball sequence. I never expected to see a basketball sequence in a Wes Anderson movie, but it's there. They are literally playing horse.

Uh-huh. Two on two. Yeah. Benicio and Riz Ahmed versus Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks. Mm-hmm. Now, I'm not entirely sure any of these four men have ever played basketball before based on their performances.

Tom Hanks got the closest, I thought. Right. That is built into, quite literally, the writing of Riz Ahmed's character. Yes. He's like, I don't know this game. Right, but I don't think it's supposed to be like the Olympics, you know? It's not, but they are, you know,

they've got their Stanford sweatshirts, you know? Yeah, the styling is really funny. It's very good. I love the sequence that leads them to this meeting. Tom Hanks is in Pepperdine. Is he? Oh, good. You know, when I was a kid, I wanted to go to Pepperdine.

I don't even really know why, other than I knew it was on the coast of California. Really? It just has some of the most impressive real estate that you can have. It's a beautiful campus. Can't say much about the school. It's a, it is also a...

It is a religious, I think... Jesuit. Jesuit, yes. It is a Jesuit university. And I love the sequence that leads to them. Obviously, there's like this assassination attempt, one of many assassination attempts on Ja Ja during the course of the film. They race through the desert.

They get into this train tunnel. They take the, I don't know what those little cars are where you... Oh yeah, I don't know either, but yeah. Anyway, they're on the train. They find they were at the end of the stop, coming in the opposite direction is the train that brings Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston. The only way to solve their financial dispute

is a game of horse. They play horse and it's incredibly amusing. While they're playing horse, Leesol and Bjorn, sparks are starting to fly whilst drinking beer. Bjorn, sparks are starting to fly whilst drinking beer. And I'm trying to think of like, you know, the Bill Simmons line of conversation on this would be like, who are the Sacramento boys? Like which, which NBA players are there right now?

You know, like they're, they're giving me a little bit of Tyrese Haliburton and Aaron Neesmith. You know, and I say that with not a lot of affection, given where we are within the Nick SpacerPacers series. Right. By the time this airs. By the time this comes out. Yeah, it's okay.

We won last night. I saw. I watched most of it. I saw Halliburton do that thing in game one, and I don't think he has the swag, so. Thank you for saying that out loud. I appreciate it. I wish you guys well. It's probable the Knicks have been eliminated. By the time, yeah. And the for saying that out loud. I appreciate it. I wish you guys well. It's probable the Knicks have been eliminated.

By the time. And the Pacers are in the finals. If that's not the case, let this stand as a monument to greatness forevermore, this conversation. So we see the encounter between these two guys that quickly then leads to, they don't quite get the financial compensation that they need. They get some of it. They get 15%.

So that's another helpful signpost, right? It's some easy math also. You just got to get to 100. And they're just counting the percentages of how much they get to cover the gap. I still don't really understand what the gap is. But I guess it's how much they... I'll tell you what I don't either. Okay. All right.

Even though I've seen it twice. I think it's something about how the price of the rivets went up. And so then everything's gonna cost more. Yeah, yes. But Porta doesn't wanna put in more money, so he needs the other people too. Yeah, that's related to the kind of resolution

of the movie, which I find to be a little bit silly. But anyway, eventually they go to visit Marseille Bob, played by Matthew Almaric. And then we meet Richard Iowati's kind of revolutionary character who comes into the movie and we go on and on. Eventually we get to Jeffrey Wright's character, who's another industrialist, who's building a great ship and a great port. And eventually we get to Cousin Hilda, Scarlett Johansson's character.

She is a second cousin of Zsa Zsa and maybe a prospective wife in an effort to draw out more funds, but also maybe not and maybe there is some sort of romantic connections. Scarlett Johansson, you're always kind of a coin flip on ScarJo. What did you think about her in this? She just wasn't in it very much. She wasn't. I didn't really know what was going on with Hilda and her utopia, which just seemed like

a kibitz or something. Yes. I think that's right. Uh, but we didn't spend a lot of time there and it didn't seem to materially affect how anyone turned out. Uh, that ultimately leads to the big, the big showdown. Yeah. Right.

Sure. Well, I'm forgetting this, the quicksand, I mean, there's a quicksand in this movie. You know, there's a jungle, there's another plane crash, there's a jungle adventure, like so many things happen, which is why I think this like overload of story is such a fascinating choice. And eventually there's a big showdown with the long threatened brother Newbar, who is Benicio del Toro's half brother portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch. He may also be materially involved in the life and death of Liesl and Liesl's mother. And there's a big showdown at the end of the movie. Benedict

Cumberbatch maybe only should be in Wes Anderson movies is one of my takes. He's so great. Great in the final five minutes of this movie. Very, very good. I'm always a little bit iffy on him. I'm nervous about the roses, you know? They released that poster or something, and I was like, oh, okay, this is... You guys thought you had something different. Does The War of the Roses have a big place in your heart? Not a big place, but it's a very useful reference point

in films and in life. And I enjoyed doing the rewatchables with Bill and Mallory on that, Divorce Kids time. Um, anyway, that's Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Colman, two actors I like and circumstances I'm not sure about. And this is a circumstance I'm sure about, so I agree with you. He's wonderful, and then there's a dramatic conclusion

to this movie, as there are for all of them. Um, and yeah, the first time I watched it, like I said, I had a little bit of a... I didn't have a hard time following the story, like I said, I had a little bit of a, I didn't have a hard time following the story, but I felt like I was only following the story. I wasn't thinking about the movie as much and kind of what it means and what it represents and kind of like vaguely subterranean ways he tries to throw ideas into it. I also felt like, I don't know how much you've been reading about the movie since you saw it last night,

but I feel like one, he's been just doing more press and been talking about it more. And because there's so many more themes, he's been sort of forced to answer questions about some of these things. And he's usually a little bit circumspect about the intention of the movie. And while he's not locating it specifically, he cast his daughter in this movie.

She has a small role in the movie. You know, the idea of the father-daughter relationship being so important, but then also wending that in with the way the power operates in the 21st century is such a, it's just an interesting stew, I would say, for him. Yes. All of the Bible stuff stuck out to me. And they do say, they say like biblical multiple times, like they actually use that word as kind of like a chorus to draw your attention to to those scenes and to some of what it's trying to explore.

And I think because of where, you know, the story is located, like the Phoenicians scene, like being in the Middle East, being in that part of the world where a lot of those stories are born is also a factor there too. And sort of like locating, you know, the fact that Ja Ja is kind of obsessed with history and ancient civilizations and like all the erotic texts that he is reading related to those times and constantly thinking about like patrons and great businessmen and people who sought power and gained power across the arc of history.

He lives in like a Venetian palazzo in the UK. Yes, which had been converted and it was built in 1545. You know, most of the music in the film, all the Stravinsky music and the paintings are all 17th century paintings, you know. It's just a film that's like firmly rooted in real histories that is unmistakable. And I was like, I can barely like get

two Dumb Pod episodes out a week. And this is now four movies in five years. And the movies are packed. They're dense. And I know he's got his team and he's, you know, Adam Stockhausen, the production designers on all of these movies. This one is actually quite interesting because Bruno Delbanel is the cinematographer and it's his first time working on a West movie. I think it's the first West movie that Robert Yeoman didn't shoot. So Robert Yeoman is going to be 75 years old, he's been working on these movies forever. I think maybe he was just on another movie or something.

But it didn't, I didn't sense like a dramatic visual shift. No, there were a few shots that I thought were interesting that were just kind of not the one person center in the frame and some use of the horizons in like different ways that were new and interesting. Yeah, yeah. You're right. I think they did that like a little bit less focus

on the into camera portrait shot. There's plenty of it, but at this point in the West, when you see a different composition, you're like, oh, I've never seen you do that before. Or, oh, you've tilted it like this. Yeah, I had the same experience. I asked him about that too. I was kind of like, I feel like you were still trying

to experiment a little bit, or the aspect ratio is changing a couple of times, and it looks a little bit different than what you had done before. And I think also the fact that he's able to build all of this plot around story, but not lose sight of the relationships, is just, it's just very rare.

You know, there's just not a lot of filmmakers, I think, that are capable of consistently achieving that. I don't know that this is, this isn't the best Wes Anderson movie. I think most people regard this as kind of like Midwest, or minor Wes. But I would encourage everyone, if they're a fan of his films, just go back a second time the way that I did,

the way I imagine you will. Um, and keep discovering. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is all about choices. For example, what happens when you show up at the movies and you're not totally sure what you want to see? Maybe Final Destination Bloodlines, maybe Lilo and Stitch. You've got to make a choice.

At State Farm, their goal is to help you make decisions that you feel good about. That's why with the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create a competitive price. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. What's better than a well marbled ribeye sizzling on

the barbecue? A well marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door? A well marbled rib eye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool? Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. What I liked about this is that it is so dense, not just in terms of theme and story, but,

you know, just stuff, references, the West of it all. But there is a simplicity to it that I don't really think you got in Asteroid City because that has like eight different main characters. And this is a story of two people. Um, so I think in some ways, you can wrap your arms around it a bit more the first time, and then you can go back and go into it. I don't know if that, the fact that it's like about two people's issues as opposed to 15

makes it like minor or whatever. I did, this is a comedy. And in as much as it is about everything that we just said in a way that Asteroid City is like one of the most deeply, I guess it's not a tragedy, but it's, and it is can be funny, but it is about matters of the heart in like a very, very-

Very mournful film. Exactly. And French Dispatch is sort of like an intellectual exercise. So I put it more in the French Dispatch category in terms of like the Anderson Cannon. But I do think it's a neat trilogy that he has going on that I think is interesting. And it's fun to watch. Like this is an enjoyable movie. Yeah, I agree is interesting. And it's fun to watch. Like, this is an enjoyable movie.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think, so he's apparently already at work on a new film that he's writing with Richard Ayoade and I think Roman Coppola. And he's got this unique thing where he's not... The Russo brothers, insofar as like that communicates like $300 million budgets, but he just sort of knows how to make these movies. He has a kind of assembly line quality.

It's most of the same artisans and craftspeople who work across all the same movies. He has this production style where they write the movie, he talks to the storyboard artist, and then they start building the animatics so they know what the movie is going to look like and the way that it's gonna, like, you know, play out once they shoot it. And so as long as he maintains that... kernel of inspiration on every project,

like, he could just do this for 30 more years, you know? Like, the person that he reminds me of is Woody Allen. You know, where Woody Allen, every year and a half, was like, here's another thing, It's kind of like the last thing. But if it's a good version of it, it's going to be deep and interesting. Right. And obviously, Woody Allen, definitely a major influence

on Wes in a variety of ways, but maybe not as much visually. And then the other thing too, is like, the sort of like, Bergman and Fellini types that Wes has like, celebrated the European Masters over the years, where they both made like 25, 35, 40 movies, and you're watching them and you know that it's like the same series of kind of setups and obsessions and they have this troop of actors

that return over and over again. But each one has like just tilted a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right in terms of what it's most interested in or what has happened in the artist's life that they're then filtering into the film. These kinds of careers are super rare. Did you read this movie at all as a movie about filmmaking? Did it occur to you at any point?

Well, tell me what you mean. No. Well, it's about a guy who has an impossible task and he's got to wrangle money and resources from a lot of different people who, and maybe he is not the most trustworthy, but neither are they. And then there is like a faceless set of bureaucrats who send a spy, aka producer, to watch over him. And then all he really needs is his little troupe, his family, and then the nine boys, you know, just like, which, and then there's that line about... The Crips and the Electricians, yeah. Yeah, there's the line about why does he keep adopting sons?

It's like, I play the numbers, you know, one of them has to be on it, which is just, if you think about it in terms of filmmaking is very funny. I don't know, it's, I mean, it was right there. I think it's a good reading, yeah. Like, it doesn't really seem like filmmaking is that complicated to Wes Anderson, and it does seem also seem like he has figured out a series of, you know, partners in financing

and everything that he can just kind of do what he wants. But, you know, like the unveiling of the model of the Phoenician scheme, just being this like incredibly, like intricately, intricately Just being this incredibly, intricately designed thing on top of thing on top of thing. Look at my masterpiece. I was like, oh, okay. The actual representation of the Phoenician scheme at the end. Yes, there is a kind of self-knowledge in the way that-

It doesn't not look like the poster for Grand Pouda Post Hotel or any other things. Completely true. And I think he's just self-referential and self-aware, which is like a very powerful skill to have as a filmmaker. And I don't think it's by any means like the only text, but I just, I was kind of like, oh, I wonder if you thought about this because I'm thinking about it. I'll bet he did, but not in a purposeful way.

It was sort of like, I am just pouring myself into something, which I believe in. You mentioned like the financiers, he's in this unique position where he's got Stephen Rails, this producer and billionaire who's been backing all of his films for the last few years, and he's got this deal with Focus, so Focus releases most of the movies. And this dovetails neatly with our conversation because Stephen Rails recently became the 20% owner

of the Indiana Pacers. So this is a man who produces all the Wes Anderson movies, which we cherish. He's also the owner of The Criterion Collection and Janis Films. Okay. So, are you writing to him about your complaints about the Wes Anderson collection? Uh, I don't have any comp...

Well, I'll share my concerns. Yeah. They're not complaints because I haven't even seen it yet. But to Mr. Rail, as I say, I wish you nothing but no success in the playoffs. Right. But I hope that you continue to support cinema in the profound way that you have forevermore. Because this is one of those people who's really kind of holding stuff up

with his wealth, which is also kind of a theme of the movie, that artists need benefactors. And... So Criterion is releasing a 10-film collection from Wes Anderson in 4K for the first time, these films. And I think it goes all the way up to the French Dispatch, right? So you know I'm going to fucking buy it, right? Like I'm going to buy it.

I want to have it on my shelf. How many of these films do you individually have on Blu-ray? All of them. I mean, no, on 4K. None of them because none of them are available. Okay, so you have all of them on Blu-ray. Yes. I think maybe one or two of them in the criteria. What happens to the Blu-rays when you get the 4Ks? It's a wonderful question.

They go in a cabinet. Okay. And then I think about whether or not I should like either give them to someone or sell them. Okay. Because I don't really need them anymore. Okay. What is the Blu-ray resale market like? What's the app?

It's robust. Tens of thousands of dollars per disk. No, no, there's not like a whole bunch of them. I mean, I think it's like a lot of them. I mean, I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them.

I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's like a lot of them. I think it's What's the Blu-ray resale market like? Is it like? Oh, it's robust. It's tens of thousands of dollars per disc. No, no, there's not like an app. Like, is there a Poshmark or? There are local video stores you can sell stuff to. Okay. But it's, there's no like the real real, but for, for Blu-rays. No, but perhaps that can be the business for me to get me out of this fucking podcasting game. What is it?

Is it grail? How can I get? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, yeah. The boy version. I started selling things on Poshmark this week, so I'll keep you updated. My wife sells Alice's old clothing on Poshmark. So yeah, I could do that for, you know, old DVD copies of Danny Boyle movies

that are just sitting in my house rotting away. What will happen to those ten? I don't know. My thing with this set, which as I said, I will just like, I will spend $400 on it like a schmuck, is first of all Astrid City is not even in it. Right. Which the one thing that... When I walked out of Phoenician Scheme, which is a movie

I really enjoyed and wholeheartedly endorsed, I once again was like, wow, we did Asteroid City dirty. Like, you know, because it is every... It is on the same level as Asteroid City in terms of like the tools that he's using and the way he's telling the story. But we were both so moved by it and then like never talked about it. I mean, we did. We did one episode.

And then we didn't put it on our top ten lists. And we just kind of like let it go by. I did. I did. So I was thinking about this. Well, not your top five. It was not in my top five, correct. Which is all we're allowed in the bounds of this podcast, which is my reference, not whatever's going on on Split Infinitives. But our opinions are...

Thank you for acknowledging Split Infinitives, which we no longer publish to that platform. Um... 2023, I think we thought of as a good year, maybe not a truly great year, but it was the Barbenheimer year and killers of the Flower Moon, right? Oh, that was a really very good... That was a good year. So, now I look at my top, I'll read you my top 10

where I left it in December of 2023. Number 10 was Anatomy of a Fall, number nine was John Wick Chapter Four, number eight was Asteroid City, seven was The Killer, six was Zone of Interest, five was The Taste of Things, four was May, December, three was Oppenheimer, two was Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse,

and one was Killers of the Flower Moon. That's a fucking awesome top ten. That is. So it was just, it was a great year. I think it kind of got lost in the Barbenheimer shuffle a little bit. Yeah. And, you know, there's also tons of other stuff that we were, you know, past lives

and had to blow up a pipeline. Like, that was a good year showing up. I'm trying to remember my lip showing up as a top five. Iron Claw, you know, tons of good stuff that year. But I think Asteroid City was like my number six. Yeah. I'm like, that's dumb, you know? Yeah, I think it's so funny that he won this Academy Award

for these shorts that he made. Even when he brought it up when we were talking and he was like, I don't even know what those were. It wasn't a film, it wasn't a... I don't know, he like is reluctant to define it. And it just was like your most classic makeup Oscar ever. It was like, Wes has got, depending on your, your mileage may vary, but at least three all time classics,

maybe for me, like seven. Yes. So to award, you know, to give him a big prize for the shorts, which I thought the shorts were cool and I liked them, but they don't hold a candle to something like Asteroid City. It's a major achievement. And even Finition Scheme, which I just think shorts were cool and I liked them, but they don't hold a candle to something like Astroid City. It's a major achievement. And even Phoenician Scheme, which I just think is just a really good movie.

So... Yeah, I'll buy that stupid box set. Okay. You know, of course I'll buy it. And then when they like put Astroid City in 4K, I'm gonna buy that, you know? Like, I love Wes. So they don't, when they make a set, they don't like leave room for extra things?

It's a good idea. That's my thing, is that Wes is in the middle of his career. I honestly... As you know, I think plastic's ugly. And I'm... This is an incumbent plastic. Oh, steel case? It comes in a bound, it's almost like a book collection.

Oh, that's cool. But how are you going to fit it on your shelf? We'll make it work. You haven't seen it? Let's take a look at it. Okay. This is a physical object that you can appreciate, I think. Okay. I'm sure that I can. I love Wes Anderson and I don't think he would be associated with ugly things. My point is just they really haven't...

Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah, that looks nice. What do you think of that? Oh, and then they look like little books. They look like books. Yeah. Okay. That's nice. Okay. Great. There's still like a uniformity to it that stresses me out. Okay, sure.

You know, that's, but I think that looks nice. I mean, it's criteria. They just haven't, they don't, they haven't really, really juiced you guys marketing-wise yet. And like the time, do you know that they're getting- What do you mean juiced us marketing-wise? Like that they aren't already selling sets with like extra room for you to add it in

and you know that there isn't a posh mark. Sounds like you should apply for a position at the Criterion Collection. You have a lot of strong ideas. You don't know what's coming for you. The thing that my sickness is looking at my shelf, like looking at the Steven Soderbergh section of my shelf, right? I own every edition of a Soderbergh movie that exists. Right, but there are some that don't.

So there's the stuff that doesn't exist, which is painful and may never exist, the HBO Max stuff that he's made in the last few years. But then four years ago, he was like, yeah, we're working on a set, and it's gonna be like, it's gonna be Kafka and Schizopolis and the limey and all my early stuff that isn't available, like in 4K Blu-ray.

And I was like, fucking A, Steven, that's the best thing I've ever heard. It's not here. I don't have it He's looking at shelf two films a year and coming on your podcast He's great reading every novel published by a female author in the last 50 years Okay, he has the end watching tennis I'm not I'm behind on the French Open. What season of Below Deck is it? I don't know, but he does. Okay? I know. I know. It's just a pain for me.

And it was a pain for me not being able to have these movies in 4K, but now if I want to get them in 4K, I got to buy this box, but then this box is a finite lifespan, and then 20 years from now they're going to be like, just kidding, it's the real Wes Anderson archive with all the movies. And then I'm going to be dying, and I'm going to have to think about what I'm giving to Alice. Will like, just kidding, it's the real Wes Anderson archive with all the movies. And then I'm gonna be dying and I'm gonna have to think about what I'm giving to Alice. Will it be money or will it be the thing that I bought

that's in plastic? These are the things that keep me up at night. This is the life of the mind. What is the shelf value of these things? What do you mean the shelf value? Well, like the long-term, do they appreciate or is it like a car? I mean, they're mass-produced objects.

They probably don't appreciate, right? I don't know, but if you're building a collection, I don't know. I think my archive could ultimately have value. Yeah. Okay. Like because it's yours or just because you have a mass? Like... I'm not in a position to answer that question.

I'll let the public decide. Who will get the rights to your archive? Not you. I don't know. We're still working on that. I mean, this is the kind of thing that JaJa Cordo is thinking about, you know, who deserves to have access to the

incredible wealth that I've accumulated over the years and by wealth, I mean plastic. Anyway, anything else you want to say about this film or Wes or collecting? Oh, oh, there's a, there is, there is to this point. Anyway, anything else you want to say about this film or Wes or collecting? Oh, oh, there is, to this point, there is a tidbit in the Wes conversation that is the most, like, me grinning so fucking hard. And you'll know exactly what it is.

Sort of, you'll know exactly what it is when you hear it. So I would encourage people to wait for that. I did not remark upon it when he said it, but inside I was like, god damn it, yes, yes! I know Jack knows what I'm referring to. Okay, anything else? No, let's let Wes Anderson speak. Let's go to my conversation with Wes Anderson. ["Wes Anderson's Theme Song"]

It is a delight to be joined by the great Wes Anderson here on the show. Wes, I thought we could start with this. I found the choice to center a father-daughter relationship to be fascinating in this movie and a little bit unusual. I was wondering why that was right for the Phoenician scheme. Yeah. Well, thanks, Sean.

Happy to be here. And the, yes, you know, with this story, the Phoenician scheme, it started as more as a story focused on this ruthless businessman, played by Benicio del Toro. And really our image, me and Roman Coppola, my co-writer of what this movie was gonna be about was this unkillable, ruthless, Our image, me and Roman Coppola, my co-writer, of what this movie was going to be about was this unkillable, ruthless man on this business mission.

And it sort of took us in another direction as we got into it. And it went from being a story focused on this guy appointing his daughter, his successor, and teaching her how to kind of fight on his behalf, and instead became about them coming together. And that became really what the whole movie's about. But that sort of surprised us. That happened sort of whatever organically means. It felt like it happened organically as we were writing the thing.

Has having a family yourself changed the way you think about writing character? Well, it probably is the reason why it went this way. I think I have a daughter, she's nine, and Benicio has a daughter, a few years older. Roman Coppola has a daughter in between those two ages. So I think, you know, without these daughters, I don't think the movie would be the story we ended up telling. I also have a daughter, so I was touched, I think, in some way by that. How old is your daughter? She's going to be four shortly.

You're going to be four. Wow. Yeah. On the sort of flip side of that concept, I'm interested in the notion of violence in your movies. This might be the most violence that we've ever had. And it's playful and it's inventive and fun, but there are bombs and dynamite and guns. And can you talk about what role that played

in working on this story? Yes, I think from the, for me, the movie really be, the movie begins for me with an image of this character. And the image of the character is he's got blood all over, you know, he's being battered. He's surrounded by violence and he causes violence and that was just a part of the mayhem of this guy. But I will say when we started

to get into the specifics of the violence, there's some extreme violence. I mean, you know, there's like, you know, eviscerated people and things. But somehow, for whatever reason, right at the beginning of it, I had this feeling like the violence wanted to be, you know, as odd as this may sound, somehow I thought there needed to be some sort of delight to the violence. It shouldn't be any less horrible, but that somehow it should be shocking and maybe be sort of making you laugh a bit, and that there should be some device or idea behind every awful thing that happens in this movie. Just in the way we tell it, in the way we get across that next little bit of the story.

So it set a tone for it, I guess. Yeah, and it happens very early on in the film, and you realize we're in a slightly different kind of Wes Anderson film, I think. Yes, that's probably true. It doesn't take long. Even more so, the violence is serving a story about corporately financed power games on a global stage. I mean, this is a very wide-ranging, globetrotting kind of a story. And even though it's a period piece, did you find that the world's contemporary politics or the kind of mania of the corporate power influencing how you and Roman were writing the story?

You know, when you're making up a story, you know, when you're not adapting something, when you're just inventing a story from scratch, you have your ideas of your research and your inspirations that you're conscious of, and then you have your imagination, and that you're not really in control of so much. That's sort of where there's work happening in parts of your brain that are hidden from you a bit. And the way the work that your brain is doing is revealed to you is when you say, I have an idea. And so all that to say the world is always kind of going into it, you know? I mean, you know, it finds its way into it. And as much as we were writing about tycoons of the middle of

the 20th century, we were also inspired by people we know right now and I think people, you know, who we all know from the front page of the newspaper. And it all kind of mixes together. I had a question about the art of the title sequence. I love the one in this film. I think it's mesmerizing. But what function do you see it serving? I think in the case of this, from the beginning, I thought maybe we want to see this guy.

You know, there's something about this character who's, he's being harmed. You know, he's a, he's a, people are trying to hurt him and they do hurt him. And he's, and we had, we have this sequence where he's, he's, you know, he's being given medicine. He's being stitched up. he's being stitched up, he's got bandages all over him, he's soaking in a tub. But he's still reading, he's smoking a cigar, he opens a bottle of wine, and this is a guy who's just,

he's not good for the world, but he is spectacularly resilient. There was a musical aspect of this. He's gathering information. I mean, he is always reading this character and he's gathering information like it's ammunition for him. And he wants to know about music and he wants to know about art and he's gathering it.

And we have this Stravinsky music that is a part of the story. And I think to me that's modernist music And we have this Stravinsky music that is a part of the story. And I think to me that's modernist music that he feels is valuable to him and something he wants to know about for whatever reason. It's something I've seen in men like this. But that music itself has a haunting, strange, defiant, particular quality. This piece that we play from this ballet,

this Stravinsky ballet, to me, says things about the character that words can't. And we made a sort of dance out of, I mean, it is from a ballet, and we made a sequence as sort of a dance, and it's a dance about just him. And he's surrounded by people tending to him, and it's a dance about just him. And he's surrounded by people tending to him and there's all this activity, but he's this sort of

vortex I think. So that's sort of the various things that were in my mind I guess. That's great. It communicates so much about him without any dialogue whatsoever. Oh good, good. It seems as though you're in a period of rapid creative outburst. I noted four films in five years, and prior to that, it was three films across 12 years. So what accounts for the burst for you? Well, I don't know. One thing is I have a lot of consistency in my group of collaborators.

And I have a producer. I mean, I have my team of producers with Jeremy Dawson and John Peet, who've worked with me for years, but I have Steven Rails, who is our sort of supervising producer of our projects. And having that relationship has been tremendously helpful for me in so many ways, and his advice is so helpful.

But it means when I start a movie, we can go right to it. We work very closely together and we have a whole group of people behind the camera who we can start with when we like. We can start prepping a movie. Like for instance, when I'm writing a script now, if I have 10 pages of the script, I start doing the, I have, you know, Jay Clark in England who starts drawing the storyboards, and I have Edward Bersh in Pennsylvania who starts editing the storyboards together,

and I start showing that material to Adam Stockhausen, our production designer, and he starts to see, okay, here's what we need to be thinking about in terms of what's gonna go in front of the camera. So everything happens at once and it's a little bit more like we have our own tiny, small-scale studio system. We can work efficiently this way and we get more done. Do you find that you have boundless ideas?

Because a lot of times when we create filmmakers, it has to be the right thing. And so this outburst that I think is so exciting that you're going through right now, it seems like you just are manifesting a whole new world very quickly. Does it feel that way? Well, I think for me, I've never had a thing like I've got eight scripts in a drawer somewhere or something. I don't have that. I mean, the first few movies I made, I mean, the first few movies I

made, I did have the first four movies I made. By the time we started the first one, I had, you know, the general idea of four movies. And we made those four movies. But, but now, I mean, I do one at a time, you know, I mean, I did have these Roald Dahl ones that we did for Netflix that are a peculiar kind of thing. I don't know if they're, I wouldn't call them movies. Anyway, they're whatever they are. There's some sort of concoction. And those I had, it's Roald Dahl's words

that he essentially wrote the scripts. But mostly, I mean, like right now, for instance, I have an idea of a thing. I'm working with Richard Ayoade and Roman Coppola and we're starting this thing brewing and we have things we take about, and you know, will it take us three months? Will it take us six months?

Will it take us a year? I have no idea, but you know, but it's brewing and I figure When we're by the time we finish the script will probably be situated to make the movie You know, I don't think we're gonna have to finish the script and say now where do we go? Well, we're gonna well when we finish the script I think I'll already have a plan for how to go about making the movie and that helps to Helps to make it all happen quicker. That's great. I hope it continues at pace. You know, speaking of those early films,

I went back and looked at a couple, and, you know, you sense this real kind of youthful frustration and even kind of rage in some of those stories. And I look at the more recent films, and I sense like a wistfulness and maybe some regret. And I don't know how much consciousness you have of kind of blending in some of those feelings and how they reflect where you're at in your life. Or if it's just sort of, I've come up with an idea and I'm writing a character and that

character comes from a very pure place. I mean, I feel like when you're writing something new, you know, you're not adapting something, you're improvising. You're either improvising with a pen or pencil, or if you're working with collaborators like I often do, or always do, sometimes you're playing the scenes for each other and it is like, it's an improvisation. And the improvisation, you don't know where it's coming from. You know, it comes out of you.

But once it starts to go onto the page, then you can say, you know, I see what we're, I see the thing that's starting to take shape, and then you can, you know, follow it more. And often I feel like it's, we didn't set out to make a movie about a father and a daughter. We set out to make a movie about a businessman,

but it just took over. Yeah, I'm not sure I totally answered the question. No, no, no, I'm always curious how much intentionality goes into some of those feelings and how much it just kind of naturally occurs. At this stage of your career, how much do you feel that you're experimenting? Like I wasn't sure if I noticed something in like the aspect ratio of this movie that looked a little bit different and I was trying to figure out if that was the case.

Like do you find that you're still kind of trying to try smaller new things as you're going through each production? What I want to do is make it fun to make the movie. And it's not fun to, you know, what I... The fun thing to do is to find surprises, to look for surprises, you know, to create situations where there are surprises. My way of making a movie is very planned, and we have, it's, you know, we build the sets to the shots, and so I kind of create a situation where we know what we're going to do on the day. But in that context, the excitement to me is when something...

We try to make a situation where the thing is going to work and I feel like I can reliably deliver a thing that's going to work. But then I look for whatever's unexpected and the detours that are gonna be the surprise. And always I'm looking for what's another way to tell this part of the story that might be, that we haven't done before. Was there a particular version of that in this movie

that you can think of? We mentioned the violence of it and the way we articulate the violence to me was something different. You know, there's a fight sequence at the end of the movie with Benicio del Toro and Benedict Cumberbatch. And to me, I had an approach to the way that we staged that scene that maybe was different from what I even saw in the script. It became something like magic tricks or something like that, I don't know. I mean, we wanted to communicate the emotion of this conflict, but I was sort of saying,

is there a certain voice to how we go about it? That's gonna be a surprise. I'm curious if you think much about the lifespan of your films, because they're often issued in these beautiful physical editions, and you've got coffee table book companions, and they're reviewed, and they continue to exist. But I feel like your movies are under a constant reevaluation. Like, for me personally, I'm constantly reevaluating Darjeeling Limited,

thinking about how I responded to it, maybe some of the things I liked or didn't understand, and then as I get older, do you pay attention to the fact that your movies have this, a continuing lifespan unlike other films? Well, you know, I like to hear that. And I think for whatever reason, I did always think of my movies as an ongoing, you know, kind of, I don't know what you would say, like an ongoing sort of project. I mean, they're individual stories, but even after I made three movies,

I thought these should be able to sit on a shelf together and be connected somehow. And I feel like, you know, that's not necessarily, I mean, I think it would be just as reasonable for somebody to say, no, my movies are in different styles, different things, they have nothing to do, the only connection is me. I don't think the only connection is me.

There are too many connections between them. But, you know, like we have a new thing, this Criterion Collection is doing a box set of the first 10 films I made. And in the process of preparing this, working with them, I know them for years and years, and we've done all these things together. But in putting them together, I do feel like I can,

what I see is, it's, I mean, this is a very narcissistic way to look at it, but I can see the films and say, oh, I'm so different over the course of these, I can see my life, you know, playing out in these films. And I will say, when we talk about when was it we met so and so, it was between Fantastic Mr. Fox and Moonrise Kingdom, remember we were,

the movies are how I can tell the passage of time in my life. You know, I have the birth of my daughter, I have, you know, when I met my wife, and I have the movies. Wes, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? You are a tremendous advocate for film history. Is there anything that you've seen lately that you've dug? You know, it's funny.

I, I, um, uh, you know, I'm here in a hotel in New York, but I often travel with a Blu-ray player. So I plug it in and sometimes you have to hack the TV a bit to be able to get it to work. But what I had, what I brought with me, little stack of movies, some, uh, some Westerns, Anthony Mann, Westerns. Um, and, but the one that I put in the machine, uh, it was a movie I've seen many times, but love that's St. Jack. Do you know St. Jack? I do.

I love St. St. Bogdanovich. Bogdanovich. And, you know, um, I was doing, Noah Baumbach was with me last night. We had our premiere here in New York and Noah and I used to see Peter. We saw a lot of Peter for a long time. And that's one of my favorite of Peter's movies.

Maybe sort of less known, more known now than it used to be. But it's such a good one. Peter loved it too, right? I feel like he thought it was a bit overlooked. He did. Yeah, he knew it. He knew it was a good one. Peter loved it too, right? I feel like he thought it was a bit overlooked. He did. Yeah, he knew it was a good one. And it's the thing where he made something very good and he was like, what happened?

The audience failed him. The audience failed him with that one. But that movie has aspects of it. It feels like it could have been Humphrey Bogart playing that part as well as Ben Guzzara. And Ben Guzzara is great. It's one of his best performances. It's a wonderful recommendation.

Wes Anderson, thank you for the time and for all the great films. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Sean. Thanks so much. So nice to talk with you. Okay. Thank you to Wes Anderson. That was fun.

Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING? AVERYWHERE? BY JASMINE BAILEY? Okay, thank you to Wes Anderson. That was fun. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. We'll be back next week to break down full title. From the world of colon, no, from the world of John Wick, colon, Ballerina. You excited about this? I was honestly just Googling to make sure you got that right. I think I got it right.

From the world of John... Yes. Good job. Why didn't they just make it John Wick presents Ballerina? You'll have to ask them. Or John Wick's Ballerina. Or Ballerina, semicolon, John Wick stuff. What else could we have called this movie? Instead of from the world of... You gotta get John Wick before Ballerina.

Because sexism. So... John Wick's... John Wick before ballerina. Because sexism. So... John Wick's obsession with ballerina. Okay, there you go. John Wick dances with ballerina. We're venturing into territory that I do not think is family-appropriate. Let's make it active, you know? John Wick isn't a ballerina, but he could be one day.

Like, what else? We could do a lot here with this title. And I just feel like from the world of John Wick, Colin Ballerina is not great. I think also we might... we might finally be... making a... making a View-ist universe connection. It's one thing I'll tease. So, it might be time.

That's beautiful. And I need to put CR at the table with us, just so we can talk. You can let us talk a little bit... about those feelings. About those worlds. I'm just gonna try to get Chris to tell all the stories about his first personal life related. with us just so we can talk. You can let us talk a little bit about those feelings about those worlds. I'm just going to try to get Chris to tell all the stories about his first personal life related to those films, of which there are many classics.

There are a few good ones. Okay, well, stay tuned for that and thanks for listening. We'll see you soon. Thanks for watching!