The Big Picture - The Richard Linklater Hall of Fame

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to discuss the unique filmmaking prowess of Texas legend Richard Linklater. On the eve of his newest film, ‘Hit Man,’ starring Glen Powell and Adria Arjona, they choose 10 films from his catalog to build out the Linklater Hall of Fame. Then, Sean is joined by director Ron Howard to discuss his documentary 'Jim Henson: Idea Man,' working in the documentary space, how he picks projects, and more (01:38:00) Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan and Ron Howard Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck, because every episode of The Rewatchables and The Big Picture, now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer Movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, The Rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history, and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities. Search Ringer Movies on YouTube and experience the joy chris ryan impersonating wayne jenkins on camera get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express

shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Richard Linklater. CR, Chris Ryan, is here. Here I am. We're happily building a special Hall of Fame today, a shrine to Big Picture multi-time CR, Chris Ryan, is here. Here I am. We're happily building

a special Hall of Fame today, a shrine to big picture multi-time guest, beloved figure in our movie-watching lives, Richard Linklater. Chris, later in this episode, Linklater?

You will be followed not by Richard Linklater, but another titan of our movie-watching lives. Can you guess who it is? Sean Levy. It's not Sean Levy. Is it...

It's literally in the document. Andrea Arnold. It's not Andrea Arnold. Is it... It's literally in the document. Andrea Arnold. It's not Andrea Arnold. Is it the ghost of David Lean? David Lean will not be making an appearance on The Big Picture today. It's Ron Howard. Fuck off! Really?

Yeah, Ron Howard. I chatted with Ron Howard about his new documentary, Jim Henson Idea Man, which is actually the title of my Chris Ryan documentary, Chris Ryan Idea Man. So I'm going to have to come up with a new title there. But yeah, talk to Ron. That's great. About Henson Idea Man which is actually the title of my Chris Ryan documentary Chris Ryan Idea Man so I'm going to have to come up with a new title there but yeah talk to Ron that's great about Henson

creator of The Muppets Sesame Street The Dark Crystal Apollo 13 Goss no we didn't really get into that we did talk about

13 Lives his very underrated 2022 film about the Thai Cave Rescue but yeah Ron Howard what a lovely man. I hope people will stick around for our conversation because he was

super cool. Anyway, Richard Linklater, that's going to happen in a minute. Amanda, you were not on the last episode. I haven't seen you in a week. Did you really? Of course, yes, I did. Well, first of all, listen, I was traveling. I was out of the country. And I actually got to meet Big Picture fans.

So that was very exciting. I would like to say hello bonjour to them bonjour to Tyler bonjour to Hans you were in Minsk? where were you? I was in Paris and if you are ever

lucky enough to be in Paris go to this restaurant Le Cheval d'Or where Hans is the chef and it was I mean it's an amazing restaurant and also

I am like sort of self-conscious about calling him by his first name because there were real the bear vibes to this restaurant yeah and everyone was very friendly and you just wanted to hang out with all of them but like he really should be chef what about chef Hans chef Hans I well you know I didn't clear that with him anyway um so I met a lot of big pic fans i saw a lot of posters for furiosa um and also bleu and company which is how they are advertising if in paris

that's funny um did you run it and friends yeah i think it's like blue and companions but um no no i didn't i thought about going to see a romantic comedy entirely in French, starring Lea Seydoux, among other people. But my French isn't that good. And they weren't showing subtitles. So I'll have to catch that. Anyway, landed from Paris, pretty jogged. Logged back online and I see Sean's done a monologue about the box office. And I was like, oh, Christ.

And made an extra large cup of coffee sat down I was like here I go I just want to say did you watch it or listen to it I listened to it okay um you did great I was very proud of you thanks that was really good appreciate it yeah have you gotten good feedback from you kept it together from the Hollywood community about that um yeah all I just got a incredible call from Bob Iger first thing the episode posted it, it was 6 a.m. PDT. He called me at 6.02. He was listening at 10x because that's how fast he listens to pods. And he said, Sean, you are doing the work. And I haven't been doing the work and I apologize to you. So I think it's going well. Everything's going well. Yeah. You know, it's terrible, but it's fine. Like everything's fine.

You're right. It's bad, but it fine it's I actually got no I don't want to say fight but at dinner with my husband on our last night of the trip he was like so you've seen the Furiosa box office and I was like yeah that seems bad and he's like you don't seem that upset about it and we talked about this for a while and this ultimately became a conversation about our marriage and our various decision making uh processes, which is, which is good. It worked out, but it's, it's what you said. Like it is terrible, but it's, you know, it's kind of done. The business has changed. Um, and everyone seems to understand that except for the people making their decks to present to the other business people. And even there, I think they understand understand it but they just have to convince their

shareholders of something so they can offload their debt so they can get like whatever correct you know so it's fucking depressing it's interesting this is the thing about covering or being defenders or enthusiasts of an art form that is so tied to commercial, you know, appeal. And it is like art and commerce all at once. And sometimes you have to defend... The big corporation? Suits. Until you don't. Until you don't.

Until you just have to say, well, maybe they'll figure out, maybe they won't. You know, you mentioned decks there for a second. Did you know there's a lot of disruption happening in the deck space? Tell me. First of all, tell me how you learned about this.

This is the best ever segue. This is the best thing that I've seen. The only reason why I'm here, I'm like, fine. I'm Richard Linklater movies. I need to talk to you about Edward Norton's new venture called Deck. Which is about Z-E-C-K.

And it's about changing the way boards do corporate governance and especially how they present their information in decks. And I watched Edward Norton make an eight-minute appearance. I just Googled. I'm Googling this in real time. On CNBC. And I was like, surely this will be like one question about his deck company

and then a ton of questions about rounders. No. No. Wow. I just found the selfie of the co-founders and edward norton this guy cares more about decks than he does about being the greatest actor of his generation which he may very well be but it's just like one of the most unbelievable things but he's currently shooting a complete unknown he's he's uh no i've i've seen those so he's doing Pete Seeger, and I think he's missing a tooth for it.

He is. So he was on CNBC without a front tooth. It's Pete Seeger wearing a $5,000 button-down talking about corporate governance index. He's missing a tooth. Yeah, and wearing a CEO hat. It's remarkable. It is truly the dystopian future. If you could be a great artist, and Edward Norton is a great artist,

and also participate in this corporate economy that you were just describing, he is living both lives. Sorry, so I'm on Zek.app, which is the... And they're not sponsoring this. And there's sort of like a breaking news alert on top of the Zek.app. It says, Zek announces Series A round led by Salesforce. Wow.

That's what this was in support of. Okay, congratulations. So they have... They currently work with many non-profits. One of several tabs is ZEC AI. And then another one is the ZEC Geist. This is...

That's awesome. I mean, that is also my living nightmare. But it's kind of beautiful that somehow Edward Norton has taken that and turned it back into performance art.

Yes. Are you feeling okay about the box office? Don't care? Yeah, you know what? I saw the other day, it was like, Challengers made 86 million.

And I was like, I wonder if in a month or two everything is going to feel much different and fine. You know what's really funny about that? The reporting on all the Tuesday box office

was like way up for every movie. And I don't know what that was about. I don't know if people are taking extra long Memorial Day weekends or just because Tuesdays are historically... They heard your pod and they were like, I got to get out there. Maybe. Maybe they were supporting us. Or it's AMC Day. That's the thing is it's a reduced price day. And then all of a sudden all these movies that had lousy weekends went up.

And then all the box office reporters were like, hmm, maybe this is not so bad. Like the fall guy was on digital for 10 days and more people want to go see the fall guy last Tuesday than the Tuesday before that, which is just bizarre. Anyway, who knows? Like who fucking knows? That is another thing. Like the way that we talk about these things and box office reporting and the trades is all wound up in its own corporate series A funding. Totally. Managed messages from you know sources and all this other stuff it's it's just about whether the movies are good or not you know and you know who makes good movies is richard link later great segue he actually never almost never i guess one

time he made a movie that you'd be like that movie is a big hit that was school of rock i watched it on the airplane on the way back obviously a lovely movie but uh that's not really something he does and yet he's really in that group of filmmakers over the last 30 years that we talk about all the time from the Spike Lee,

Soderbergh, Tarantino, you know, David Fincher, like that whole crew. Early 90s, late 80s breakouts. out of the Sundance,

not from New York or Los Angeles and he persists. I mean, heance, not from New York or Los Angeles. And he persists. I mean, he remains I don't know if major filmmaker is the right way to describe him

because he's always kind of doing his own thing. He's never operating inside of Hollywood. But he's got another movie coming out. I guess technically it's already out

but only in 44 theaters. But premiering next Friday on Netflix called Hitman starring Glenn Powell. Pretty much makes a movie every 18 months. Has really never slowed down.

He has 21 movies that we'll go through as we build the Hall of Fame. So let's start with this. Amanda, do you remember the first Richard Linklater movie you saw? I think it must be before Sunrise, right? Because I was nine for Days and Confused. And so I don't really think that made it over the transom. And then at that time, anyway, I mean, I saw Days and Confused. And so I don't really think that made it over the transom. And then at that time, anyway, I mean, I saw Dazed and Confused many times in college

with many young men. Many men. Who were sheep with it, you know, by it. You think 50 Cent has seen Dazed and Confused? You think he'd be interested in that? He might. But yeah, before Sunrise, I think from the Ethan Hawke

awareness and the reality bites you know of it all led me to a movie about two people

talking a lot in Europe so you know and that's shaped my life ever since I thought you were going to say

the Newton boys that led me to the Newton boys do you remember your first Chris? yeah it was Slacker so Slacker came out in 90

and I think um i remember being really allured by and intimidated by the screw the poster or the the cover of the vhs so it's like this this young woman in in the scene in the movie it's a hilarious scene but in the on the poster i was just like what is this person going to tell me when i watch this movie when i finally work up the nerve to do it it was like this totem of underground culture that i was like first becoming aware of in high school so i always associate the cover of slacker with like the album cover of slanted and enchanted by pavement where i'm like what is this why am Why am I drawn to it? And what, like, what is it going to do to me once I finally wrap my head around it? And yeah, I just was,

I remember watching slacker had never seen anything like it in my life. Definitely did not understand 75% of it, but the 25% that I was like, Oh, I think I kind of know people like this who don't want to do anything with their lives and just want to talk all day about how they're feeling and what they're thinking. And I was like, you can do that in a movie? I had no idea. Turns out you can do it for a whole career. Look at you now. Look at me now. You did it. So influential. Yeah. Mine must have been Dazed and Confused. I would have been 11 when it came out. I definitely didn't see it in a movie theater. I think I saw it on VHS from Blockbuster. You know, it had the smiley face cover.

Sure, yeah. Which I think probably appealed to my mom. And that's why she let me rent it. Because she was like, oh, this is a movie about my life. Which I guess in some ways it is. And that movie, we did a rewatch on it a long time ago. But that movie is a six-star classic. It's like, it is better than five stars.

You just invent six stars. I did, right here. It's so, so, so influential on my taste and on my expectations of what movies like that are. And actually, in some ways, you could see that Linklater is still weirdly kind of chasing that movie. Even a lot of his contemporary dramedies feel like they're trying to get back to that thing which is interesting because that's a movie about trying to get back to something um i love that

movie very much definitely got me hooked on his stuff i too watched slacker at like 12 years old and was like what is this uh yeah i couldn't make hide nor hair of it like i really bill watched it was like this guy has a lot of things to say about the Kennedy assassination. I'm digging it. Yeah. That part actually is maybe the most scrutable part of the whole movie.

But then the Sunrise, Sunset movies were pretty significant. Sunset is an all-time movie for my wife and I, as I'm sure it is for many couples that are in our age bracket. How would you describe his filmmaking style? It is character and word-driven. And at the same time,

experimenting with form, particularly with time. You know? So it's like big-time feelings. To me, in a lot of ways like he's the I'm technically Linklater is not Gen X but when I just think of Gen X feelings and how I learned about a lot of them it's through all these dudes you know just hanging out in bars talking about you know the baseball teams that they used to play for. That is literally the dream.

Yeah. And like sorting through their feelings with more words than I associate with most other men in movies. That's my whole thesis on him is that he's the real Bull Durham. Like he's the jock poet for real. He actually is genuinely curious about the arc of time and how it impacts our emotional lives and cannot get over it and is constantly thinking. And you could see when he was 17 that this is something he considered even when he was, you know, the starting quarterback on his high school football team. How would you describe his filmmaking style? Well, visually, I find it to be

pretty invisible. Like I find him curious and present and inquisitive and comfortable being kind of like, the camera is here to watch human behavior take place and to capture moments that even in his quote-unquote Hollywood movies or genre movies, it's like, what can I get out of this

that is unexpectedly real and true? So even something like Newton Boys or whatever, he's going to like wait and try and find the like part of humanity. I think he does that really well

in Hitman, like where he's going to like squeeze out some weird, very true moment from these characters, which I always really appreciate. I don't necessarily, it might when I close my eyes

and I think of the definitive like Linklater set piece or scene or shot, like, you know, there's obviously moments and days and confused that come to mind, but I don't think of him as an overly didactic visual storyteller. I will say that I think of him.

I think he might be the voice. If not, it's not really my generation, but the voice of a generation. Yes. And has continued to make movies that feel deeply connected to the way he sees the world and the way he's engaging with the world and whether that's politically or it has to do with being a parent or being a child or being somebody who is lost in their own nostalgia or uncertain

about their future the every couple of movies you feel like he's kind of like planting a mile marker to be like all right here's where i'm at now you know like he's kind of like planting a mile marker to be like, all right, here's where I'm at now, you know? And it's been fascinating to go from slacker and dazed and suburbia, honestly, and before sunrise, where you're like, okay, like this is the voice of like this young, wandering, despondent, kind of alienated person to all the way through boyhood and everybody wants some, kind of having this more like, I need to go back and fix certain things,

but also celebrate certain things. And I think that's an incredible project for a filmmaker and maybe unique among all working filmmakers with the exception of like Spielberg. Like, I mean, somebody who's like I and he's more through genre but like who else goes and like comments on their own lived experience and autobiography with this frequency with this kind of fanfare yeah I mean there are some but they often do it in much more oblique ways I think the thing that like Wes Anderson is clearly doing that but he's just

doing it through the prism of different kinds of stories or different kinds of influences and time periods. I think he is, has that very Texas matter of factness to what he's doing that makes it seem like very accessible. You know, like he's also,

like he obviously is well known for being a staple of Austin, but he was born in Houston. You know what I mean? He was raised in Huntsville. Yeah. Like he's just a very direct communicator. So he's like,

here's a movie about when I was in college playing baseball. And yet that movie is just like magically transporting and deeply relatable and really considered and philosophical. Yeah.

You know, he's very philosophical in all these movies trying to better understand why things are the way that they are and maybe how they could have been. I think part of the reason that he's able to do what Chris is describing is because he's always just making movies on his terms. He's never like, I should probably go make Transformers 6 just in case, you know, like I got to backstop whatever I'm interested in. Like,

he really never does that. I guess he remade Bad News Bears and he made School of Rock, but even those movies he's poured a lot of himself and his own ideas and interests into those movies and those are really like as kind of commercial as he gets even a movie like Hitman which you know you call your movie Hitman and you're expecting a certain kind of a thing like the whole movie is about upending and subverting our expectations of a movie just like Bernie like the Bernie. Yeah. So I think it's because maybe he's able to keep things at a modest scale on a regular basis that they can always feel like him.

I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, he is, you know, very famously set up shop in Texas, like has a whole compound, is like, leave me alone. I'm going to do things on a low budget

and with my own funding or, you know, with cobbled together without a studio. So you can't tell me what to do. And I will film something for 13 years over the span of like a weekend. Like I'm going to camp in the case of Boyhood or again, he's doing it again with Merrily We Roll Along. So with with Paul Muskell. So he's it has just a real the same vibe that are like in his character speaking of autobiography which is like i'm i'm just doing my thing like you know and i'm gonna figure it out and like a little bit of a loner but still interested in other people

and wants to set his own vibe and and also manages to put all of that in the movies that he makes because there aren't that many other people except for this troupe of actors and collaborators that he works with time and time and time again. So there is just kind of a whole little Linklater universe that no matter what kind of genre he's doing and whether it is another, you know,

school of dazed and confused or a hit man, it's like, Oh, I'm in a link later movie right now. These people are all talking to me in that like certainly direct way. Um, and I want to spend more time here, but it's like a little off kilter and just a very specific,

I mean, it's very personal filmmaking. Yeah. Like I'm trying to think about your question that you asked about what other filmmakers. And it's like you kind of have to go back a little bit. Like Mike Lee does this. Yeah. Woody Allen did that. You know, Preston Sturges did that.

And again, to your point about the troops where you have like these recurring faces and voices that are kind of coming up over and over again. Or even like filmmaking styles, like making three rotoscoped movies over the course of 15 years like he is comfortable in a mode you know like in a way that very few filmmakers are now because honestly because of how challenged I think Hollywood has been in the last 10 years

but he's also been super smart he's been like I will take Amazon's money to make Where'd You Go Bernadette I will take Netflix's money to make Amazon 10 and a half I will take the Amazon money to put Where'd You Go Bernadette. I will take Netflix's money to make Amazon 10 and a half. I will take the Amazon money to put Hitman out in the world. Like he's pretty savvy about how to keep his head above water as an independent filmmaker. He's the person who is most stuck to the one for you,

one for me ethos that I think was promised out of that Sundance generation. And like the idea that you would be able to make your version of their movie and then your version of your movie and one would pay for the other. I also just really deeply identify with and appreciate how prolific he is. I think that there's so much to discover

and enjoy throughout his filmography and the fact that he's like so... It feels like he's like bursting with creativity and also a deep desire to be on set, to work, to edit, to make these movies that I think only Soderbergh really matches him in terms of the output. And both of those guys, I think from very different perspectives,

are like the cumulative experience of my work at the end will be my version of making there will be blood and then making the master or whatever right do you know what I mean like I I need to I need to always be working and then when you watch four of my movies that were made over the course of seven years you're gonna be like damn those were really good and now like we have to rethink how we were thinking about this filmmaker. Yeah, it's a good comparison because Soderbergh, like Linklater, are both students of movie and filmmaker history. And there's, you know, that pivot point in Linklater's life

where he went to Sam Houston State. He was going to play sports. He was going to play football, I think, at school or baseball at school. Got hurt, left school, moved to Austin. and then for like two years just went to the movies every day and watched movies for 12 hours. So that was his version of a film school was just like he just watched everything. And you can see that as you go through some of his movies and you're like, why did he make an Orson Welles movie?

Why is he making a movie called Nouvelle Vague about the French New Wave? Like he's consumed by the arc of filmmakers careers and movie history too. So I think you're right that he has this like it'll all come out in the wash sensibility where he's like just keep working. Just keep making stuff. Some will hit. Some won't. You know like I just I talked to him for the show.

It'll air next week. And I feel like he's kind of unstuck in time. Like he looks exactly the same. Like he's still he's like 63 years old he's got floppy brown hair and the same face that he had 25 years ago when you're watching like featurettes of him directing bad news bears and it i don't know like most directors first of all it's a hard job very stressful job those guys age hard you know it's tough to to be like yeah everything's good man good to see you like that's this vibe. Anytime I've ever talked to him.

But also that's the vibe of the movies. Even when people are going through like deep emotional crises or completely lost or don't know, it's just kind of like, yeah, we're just going to kind of keep, keep trying. You think it's a shield of masculinity, a shield of chill?

No, I don't think so. I think maybe it's aspirational. Maybe we would all like to get to that, uh, that, that place of, of comfort,

masculinity or otherwise. Yeah. I know you guys would. I'd love, you know. I got to stop drinking all this coffee. Yeah. You think that coffee

is capping your masculinity or is unleashing it or what's the problem? No, it's just putting up a jittery shield. Right. Oh, interesting. I have a nervous energy

that I otherwise wouldn't have. I don't know whether like calm is going to ever come for you in that capacity. Also, the coffee might be what unlocks the box office for you. Like that's what you now you. When I put it away. No, you drinking so much coffee is why you can see the ones and the zeros, you know. I don't think I can, but that's nice of you to say.

What's your favorite? What's your favorite? Probably before sunset. Because, you know, a little bit my interest set. And then it's the most romantic, I think, of the three. And we talked a little bit about this when we did a Linklater episode tied to Melissa Meritz's book about Dazed and Confused, which is wonderful. And I recommend if you haven't read it. But, you know, sometimes there is such a comfort with the subject matter and emotions and his

masculine, you know, masculine or whatever is going on that like these these characters can be too vulnerable for me. And I'm like, oh, oh, my God. You know, Jesse is too vulnerable for you. And before sunrise and, you know, the older you get, like the more they're just like these two. oh, my God, you know. Jesse is too vulnerable for you? And before Sunrise. And, you know, the older you get, like, the more they're just like these two. Oh, my God. But he nailed that 22-year-old guy who's just like, oh, my God. No, it's an incredible performance.

It's not that it's not right. It's just that sometimes, like, my cynicism, like, my shield, you know, makes me be like, and so. And then. You got to turn yourself over to it. Before Sunset, you can't not. And it's like the perfect balance of these people being vulnerable, but also not totally wanting

to put themselves out there, but finally giving in. So I guess it's the one I'm most comfortable with. I mean, I also really, really like Before Midnight, but that's not a thing you want to say in public when you're in America I think we have to unfortunately today before Midnight Crew it's like getting back from NOM

it's like everybody's just like I know yeah I know yeah understanding it more and more as the older I get that's the thing that is really fun about his movies too is that some of the movies are about going back and some of them are about what's happening right now yeah you know and obviously that movie and all three of the before films are very informed by the two stars who are co-writers on the two i guess the second two movies especially they have screenwriting credit um but ethan hawk and julie delpy who have been through divorces have been through traumatic experiences have raised families like the three of them pouring their angst and feeling into the the latter two movies i find to be like really powerful um what's your favorite uh it's

either before sunset or dazed depending it's okay to say dazed i mean dazed is like something i've seen so many times now that like i think sunset still like shocks me and makes me it hits me in different ways now but dazed I feel like I could watch if you were like you can only take one movie to a desert island like dazed would be in the conversation oh that's well you've just

landed on a future episode desert island DVDs you're not invited why is he invited? Well, because he at least respects my work. Desert Island Discs

is a big, you know, It's a big show. Yeah. But for films. But Desert Island DVDs is not. What if there was

a region-free Blu-ray on this island, you know? Oh, right. That would be incredible. Yeah, because you watch sort of like

the director's cut of the raid, you know? Over and over again, that's what you would do. Yeah, just to pass the time um i think my favorite is dazed and confused but i think i agree with you both that there's something about sunset that is like a forever movie you wouldn't you wouldn't be surprised to learn that well long after we've died there is acknowledgement of an incredible like a

fascinating achievement especially in like it's a sequel you know i mean that's it's very unusual for a movie to in some ways like elevate what was so great about the original the original is beautiful and very romantic and and very much i'm 23 and it captures that really well in a very sincere way but the the second, the scene in the car, where he's like, you go by, you go by, you go by, and he's looking out the window and she reaches for him, but he doesn't see. I'm like, how do you, this is really happening?

You know, like that's very rare. Also has like one of the best endings in the history of movies. Yes, yes, yeah. You're going to miss that plane. So it's a pretty, it's a 1A and 1B I think for me as well it's nice that we can all agree on that is there

outside of the dazed and before movies what do you is there like a coming up coming up the charts well heat seeker

I mean everybody wants them is the answer but that but that is also like that's the answer but that's also that's in the dazed you know

sure I think it's different, though. It is different, and it's beautiful and transcendent. I think that there's a way to watch Dazed, and you could never watch another Richard Linklater movie, and I don't think you would get the full picture of what he does as a filmmaker, but I really feel like if you watch Everybody Wants Some, it's very illustrative of what he does as a filmmaker,

where you start, and you're like, oh man, are these guys going to bust balls for two hours? This is awesome. I can't wait. Go like this picture is my favorite character. And then it's just like, no, it's not that man. Like it's this 40 minute party that then they go off and like they're tripping and they're having like they're, they're basically altering their perception of reality. And reality and it's it's so different but it's like so rewarding to return

to that i mean that movie is also fantastic uh very underseen and if people are listening and they haven't heard us say 3 000 times on the show like watch everybody wants them watch everybody wants them i think it's just so specific in the same way that Dazed and Confused is so specific. Like, the Wyatt Russell character and his, you know, his speech about hearing the music while getting high

and then him getting kicked off the team because he's like 28 years old. It's like, that's, you couldn't make that up. You know what I mean? Like,

he clearly went through an experience like that that, well, you think it's a movie about the guys or you think it's a movie about the guys or you think it's a movie about this like very blissful time of young love but it's also about all these other

things at the same time and most movies are not willing to kind of be shaggy like that a lot of his movies are just so comfortable being as shaggy as they are it's something that i really like about hitman actually that hitman through the first 15 minutes i was like oh i don't i'm not sure this is really what i want him to be doing and then by the time I got to the end I was like ah Linklater movie you know like cool great you did it again like you landed whatever it was that you thought I thought it was going to be this and then you made him feel like this which he consistently upsets our expectations around those things I'm trying to think of what would be the one for me beyond those two parallel tracks of before and the remembering my youth movies.

I think for most people listening to the show, it would be School of Rock, which is also, I think, in many ways, the biggest outlier because it is so conventional with such a conventional leading comic performance. It feels like a 2000s comedy in a direct way. That's not a criticism at all. I think if we were 10 years younger, we would probably have bigger relationships

to School of Rock, but we're not. So we don't. I like it. I think it's really fun. It is still the film for most of his movies that aren't hardcore indie,

like experimental Linklater movies. It's like from the director of School of Rock and is confused as the title card they put on them. And it's still obviously like a calling card movie for him even if we're probably like why why wouldn't you say before sunset is the you know yeah it was the one movie available

of the one link later movie available on um on the plane any uh anyone but you was available for literally everybody else on the plane just in case you guys were wondering just like interesting i mean which is great they were all watching. Glenn Powell, like everyone was checking out anyone but you. Not to get too sidetracked. Yeah. Let's do it. Like, why did that happen? Why did that become the thing that

happened? Like, I talked about it in the box office monologue. We talked about it on the show. Its success is fascinating to me because it's like everybody i've talked to is acknowledged like this isn't really that good but i want to watch it right well why it happened at the box office was sydney sweeney tiktok and i think the the power of sydney sweeney with people who just graduated from what are the minions called called? The Minions, Gentle Minions. Right?

Or college. Or maybe they're still in college. You think Gentle Minions graduated to Sydney Sweeney's in a bikini in Australia? I do. You think there's a direct line there? Okay, great. Well, I support you. Just look at the demographics. But a lot of women saw that movie.

Sure, because they'll go see a rom-com or they're also interested in it. Well, they know. That's really my point is like they won't. So if they won't, then why did they go see this one? I mean, Glenn Powell obviously is emerging as a draw, but I'm really quite fascinated by everybody being like, I got to see this on a plane. There's been like in a lot of the bad conversation,

there has been a lot of Barbenheimer was why can't we recreate barbenheimer and that proved that people do want to go to the movies but as you said it's an exception like it's sort of like a strange event that then encouraged more people who normally wouldn't be a part of the event to want to join in and i do feel like anyone but you among like 22 year olds. Sort of. Became this thing. Where. I guess so. People would go see it.

And then it was a. You know. Again. We're just too old. To like really be able to speak. To what was going on with the young people. On the plane. It's like.

You've heard of it. And what the hell else are you going to watch on the plane. The guy next to me watched Zone of Interest. And I thought that was a choice. Salute to him. Straight up. Here's what he did. This all time. All time herotime, all-time hero.

Started off with Beekeeper. Straight into Ferrari. Straight into Zone of Interest. Wow, you sat next to Chris on the plane? Amazing. That's a sick triple feature. Yeah. Sick.

Unbelievable. This guy has taste. Sir, come on the big picture. I almost, he was like very respectful of respectful of my personal space so i wanted to respect as well but i was like he was window i was aisle okay um but then literally everyone else watched anyone but you um so what did i watch oh yeah i told this because i watched school of rock because it's the only link later a film available on the plane and i'd seen it before.

It's very charming. I mean, you know, the kids. It is a Linklater film in that it's about a band of people trying to vibe out together and find themselves. They're just like nine. Yeah. And they're at a weird prep school. But it got to that scene that Jack Black does with like the legend of Ren is half past due or whatever. And I realized that

I've seen this clip like 80,000 times. I don't know why. It's not, I'm not seeking it out. I'm not like a huge Jack Black fan. As everyone who listened to the holiday rewatchables

let me know what's not acceptable. All 18 people who listened to that episode. A lot of people listened to that. That is the longest movie ever made. Just because you, I don't, it's not, I don't like it either. It is literally, it's Shoah listen to that. That is the longest movie ever made. Just because you I don't

It is literally it's Shoah and then in second place is The Holiday. I am not I'm a Nancy Meyers defender letter maker movie but I don't really care

for The Holiday that much or the Jack Black parts of it. Anyway that movie has Oh yeah he's the composer in that movie right? Yes. Yeah yeah yeah.

And he takes Kate Winslet on a date to a blockbuster and just like sings music scores at her in the aisles I can see you doing that pretty sweet pretty cool

no but he's doing like Jack back like ba-da-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba and you're just like my face is melting off anyway when I do that I sing old solo Mio

just in full I'm still thinking about the guy watching Beekeeper and Zone of Interest. Inside we live two wolves. No, it's just like, that's the wolf. It was really, really, really special. I spent a lot of time just like walking back and forth,

nosing into what people were watching on the movies. And he won. One other thing that I like about the Linklater movies is, this is actually exactly the same to me as Spike Lee and Soderbergh, which is they have all three of these guys have made roughly 10 movies that no one ever thinks about

or talks about and all of them I'm like there's something interesting going on in this movie you know like Bernie is one of those movies that I'm like

in a quiet moment I'm like what's really going on with Bernie it's also like you know his movies and I think to some extent like some of the more recent

Soderbergh movies is like, they're, they obviously like, especially the ones they do for studios, they have no idea how to market them. Like,

the Bernie trailer is like, that's not what happens in this movie. And the same thing is kind of true for Where'd You Go Bernadette? Yes.

Where you're just like, this isn't really the vibe. Last Flag Flying, same thing. I really, really like that one. Where you're just like, this isn't really the vibe. Last Flag Flying, same thing. I really, really like that movie. I put his movies in buckets for us. Maybe as a way of

kind of categorizing. Obviously, if we're building a Hall of Fame, we're not going to be doing it necessarily from this. But I wonder how much he would subscribe to this where he has a group of

autobiographical Texas films. What are those movies? So Slacker, Dazed, Boyhood, Want Some. And then I would actually highly recommend and highlight his documentary that came out earlier this year called God Save Texas, which is about growing up in Huntsville and in the shadow of the prison that's there

and his relationship to capital punishment and this community's relationship to this prison. It's unbelievable. It's relationship to this prison. It's unbelievable. It's like 50 minutes long. It's on max. And he is the on-screen narrator and journalist in it. And it's awesome.

It's kind of like if he was a non-obnoxious Michael Moore. You know, like that's the filmmaking approach, which I don't think he'd ever really done before. Right. Which is really cool. But that's interesting you mention that because he's also made several polemical movies or his version

of polemical movies so that would be Fast Food Nation and God Save Texas but there was another one wait what was it it was I mean A Scanner Darkly in some ways is that I mean Last Flight Flying yeah and then uh

hollywood dalliances which is essentially like the times where he's he's worked with major studios or at least major stars to like kind of either adapt a piece of literature remake a film so it's you know bad news bears school of rock newton boys bernadette flag flying i think me and orson wells to some extent is that that yeah and then he has like these I call it adventures in storytelling but it is like his sort of formal experiments so whether that's telling boyhood and the before movies over the course of years or tape or scanner darkly where he's like experimenting with different ways to tell stories and I think it's so cool that in each of these sections,

different movies can go in multiple sections. And also that he has not stopped making any one kind of these movies. Yes. It's a really good point. When Apollo 10 and a half came out, which I felt like was just super overlooked. Like, I don't, I don't, did you even see it? I don't, we never talked about it on the show.

No, I don't think I did. And that's also Glenn Powell. Glenn Powell, yeah. Is he John Glenn? Yeah. He plays an astronaut. And it's a kind of like reimagining of the space race from the perspective of a family in Texas. And it's like a fascinating, beautiful Richard Linklater movie that came out during COVID.

So people were like, I'm good. I don't want to watch that. It's on Netflix which is there was also another Apollo it was Apollo 11

was that which was a documentary that also came out during COVID yeah that was like some confusion around the title

yeah was that on Apple what was Apollo 11 on I think it was theatrically released in 19 and then came to streaming during the pandemic okay

so there might have been some title confusion there. There's a lot going on there. I think that's right. I think that breakdown is right and I agree. I like how they bleed into each other. Yeah, I was going to say like Bernie is a Texas movie as much as it is. Totally.

His next two movies, Nouvelle Vogue, Merrily We Roll Along, we mentioned. He's still at it. What year do you predict we'll get Merrily We Roll Along? I don't really know the story of Merrily We Roll Along I don't really know the story of Merrily We Roll Along so I don't know how much they age

quite a bit it's a that's a Sondheim musical I've seen this musical and it the movie starts in the

essentially in the future it starts with the the older version of the cast so I think they're roughly in their 40s when the show starts and then it kind they're roughly in their 40s when the show starts and then they kind of go back to their 20s so paul mescal is like 28 so i don't how long are

they gonna do this i know i honestly don't know how long he's gonna make so i'm in the source text is over 20 years i feel like i read some you know unsourced twitter update that was like paul mescal will be doing this for the next 13 years or something like that. And it's like he's filmed two parts of it so far. Yeah. It's also currently on Broadway. It is Daniel Radcliffe and Jonathan Groff. His version will be Paul Meskel, Beanie Feldstein, and Ben Platt are the three principles in

the story. It's based on another story. I can't remember what it is that Sondheim adapted another famous musical that he kind of inverted anyhow there's that and then Nouveau Vogue which is

apparently about the rise of new wave French filmmakers is it the making of Breathless like is it centered around something in particular I know that that's a part of the story

I'm not sure that feels like a movie that when I think he's finishing it let's find out somebody who just cut her hair on Instagram. It was like, holy shit. Yeah.

Wait. Wait for it. Zoe Deitch? Yep. Tell me how you learned about Zoe Deitch's haircut on Instagram. Okay. It was just like, I think she like cut her hair like on camera. Okay.

And then they like did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the Felicity haircut. Everyone should listen to Dear Felicity hosted by Juliette Lemon especially the oral history of that haircut great episode

yeah she's the only American actor in this film otherwise represented someone playing Godard Truffaut

Romer Claude Chabrol Roberto Rossellini Agnes Varda Jacques Cocteau Jacques Rivette Roy Royal Cotard. A lot of the heavy hitters. Filmed all in Paris.

Are you appearing in the film? Is that why you were there? For reshoots? Yeah. That's great. Who are you playing? Okay, you want to build the Hall of Fame? Yeah.

I haven't done this in a while. Do you think this is going to be contentious? There's like seven movies that automatically have to go in. Yeah. But I just don't think it's the vibe of this project. And the vibe of Richard Linklater. Yeah, that's what I meant. Rick would not appreciate a quarrel in this discussion.

Well, I just kind of, I don't know. You don't really come guns blazing for this, which is why the Newton boys probably won't be going in. No. Yeah. Well, we'll see. Never know. CR always has one

in his back pocket. Just like, was it Jim Newton? Which Newton are we talking about here? Okay, let's start with 1990's Slacker. This is obviously

his big breakthrough. This is the movie that taught Chris about the JFK conspiracy that taught Chris about crooked rain. I think technically JFK taught me

about the JFK conspiracy. He taught you? No, the film. the Oliver Stone's movie. The dead president didn't come to you in your sleep? Guys, I fucking can't wait for the Costner Hall of Fame. Yeah. I mean, we're going to do this Hall of Fame and this will be really fun.

Costner Hall of Fame will be a blood sport, I think. Yeah, also, I just, there are a lot of, I watched a Kevin Costner movie on the plane that will not be going in Hall of Fame, but I have at least a five-minute presentation to do. Is it the film Black and White? That's the exact joke I was going to make. I'd like to revisit Black and White just to be sure.

Just to be sure that their heart was in the right place on that one. You don't want to share what it is? No, no, no. The element of surprise. Okay, all right. We are doing the Kevin Costner Hall of Fame next month. That is our Hall of Fame conversation. You want to want to share what it is? No, no, no. You know, the element of surprise. Okay, all right. We are doing the Kevin Costner Hall of Fame next month.

I know. That's our Hall of Fame conversation. You want to be a part of that? Sure. Will you be able to rewatch all 37 feature films? Consider them rewatched.

You know, like honestly. Consider them taken. Have you seen Horizon yet? I haven't. Can we go together? Absolutely. Okay. You know that I still

also want, I mean, do you want to go see it, see one and then wait to go see two? Or do you want to wait for two to come out and see one and two together? I don't think that Sean's going to allow me to wait until two comes out to podcast. I'll tell you what, solo 90 minute Horizon chapter one pod. I think I can do it now. I think, well, I thought about asking whether he would want to come chat with us about it. I will definitely go see Horizon,

an American saga, part one with you. Thank you so much. I feel like me going alone to see Horizon part one is not the experience I want to have. Horizon part one,

I don't mind telling you, is a movie that I enjoyed watching despite the entire time thinking to myself, I have some notes. But I did enjoy myself. Yeah. So I look forward to

speaking with you both about it. Okay. Slacker. Yeah. I think it's in. Yeah, I think it's in too. And not just my usual hang up about the Breakthrough movie. It's storied in the link later. Did you rewatch Slacker? I did not.

I have seen it many times. Did you ever watch Slacker and be like, this is how I want to live? Like I want to just be smoking and talking about stuff all day? I really like that question. I really, really appreciate your perspective on the world and the fact that you would think that I could live that way without losing my mind.

I think if you were from Texas, you might. I know. Well, that's the problem. I've got jittery Long Island energy. All this fucking coffee, all this shitty Mets fandom, you know? All this angst. All this nothingness. fandom. You know? All this angst. All this nothingness.

Are you really going to quit watching the Mets? I mean, I already have. Okay. How did you watch this Mets Dodgers? I mean, I'm not quitting. How did you watch

this Mets Dodgers series? Well, I couldn't watch most of it because it was happening during working hours. Oh, no. Okay. There was a double header so I couldn't watch any of that.

I mean, Bobby and I were literally like doing interviews and stuff. I'm talking about basic access to the CableSource network. Oh, she's still on the bundle. Oh, I'll tell you what. I listened to game one in the car

on the way to a screening on the radio. So I listened to my guy Howie Rose, which is actually how, when it's an LA situation, that's what I'll do. I'll like put it on the MLB audio and then like take a walk or something. Did some guy get DFA'd today, Bob? Yeah, it was like a whole, that's what I'll do. I'll put it on the MLB audio and then take a walk or something. Did some guy get DFA'd today, Bob?

Yeah, it was like a whole thing. It was a reliever who got ejected for arguing a check swing call, which was clearly not a check swing, or was clearly not a swing. And then after getting ejected, he walked into the dugout and threw his glove over the netting into the stands. And then he called

the team allegedly called the team the worst fucking team in the MLB in his postgame presser there's been some conjecture about this that he may have been

saying he's the worst fucking teammate in the MLB okay because he blew it unclear yeah he let his guys down

well perhaps you know he was English is not his first language so there was some confusion about the translation of. You know, he was... English is not his first language, so there was some confusion about the translation of what it was that he was trying to say.

Nevertheless, it was a real like, you know, let's roll up these tents, you know? There's like, let's go on to the Jets, you know?

Really, we're 11 games under 500 in May. That's not good. That's not where you want to be. Not like the Phils. I'm not jinxing it. You don't want to jinx it. Yeah.

We've been watching a lot of Phils because that we have access to. Best team the sport um also you know the 200 and something dollars that we pay to the uh to major league baseball actually allows us to watch the phillies i mean you when will you take this to congress i'm the blackout rules i need the help of a non- nonprofit journalistic organization to actually do the work. Yeah. You know, also like I take it to Congress and they're like, whatever, you know, they're flying flags upside down and no one cares. But if you had gone and you were like, Supreme Court, but okay. You know what I'm saying? There are no consequences.

Woke snowflakes are keeping me from the Dodgers. I'm sure you would get a hearing then. Have you, have you turned your flag upside down yet? Since all this has come out? I have to say, I was talking about this with Andy earlier and I'll say it to you straight up. I find this so funny. It's terrible and I think we're going to probably not have a government soon, but it's like

the idea that this woman who's as old as my mom and she's just like, no, I won't. And he's like, well, she said she wouldn't, she wouldn't change the flag. And it's like, why are we so dumbed by like old people? You should confuse them. But are you talking about Sam Alito's wife? Yeah.

Why are we so scared of her? Who's scared of her? I don't care. I don't care. See, this is like, I just think it's like, these people have as much power as we give them. I think it's honestly a very relatable story where it's like my wife wants to do something and I can't get her to stop.

Why is fucking Anthony Bourdain and Tom Petty dead? Why do we have to live in this world where like all of our heroes, all the special people die and fucking Mitch McConnell is still like, I got you. I got the whole free world in the headlock. What's up with that? These old people flying flags and we're like, I guess we're just

not going to have a republic. Here's why we're not cutting this. This is really in the spirit of the Linklater project. It's really true. That's good. I agree with everything. Yeah. Why is Tom Petty dead and Mitch McConnell alive? Thank you for asking the important questions. Slackers in, dazed and confused. Is there anything else you'd like to say about it? When the GTO comes around the corner, sweet emotion hits. Yeah. Like, we're good.

We're good. It's going to be a great night in America. 1995 before sunrise. In. In. Have you ever been to Vienna? Yep. Have you been to Vienna?

I haven't. I went on Easter weekend and everything was closed. But I saw Big Lebowski there, which was funny. Did you? Yeah. Interesting. Was it in the original Austrian? It was in the 90s. I would say that the jokes did not land as well as they did in America.

There actually are German nihilists in that film. Yeah. I mean, Vienna, obviously, Austria has a complicated relationship with Germany. Yeah. We learned about that in the sound of music. Who learned about that in the sound of music who learned about it my family every day uh best joke in that movie is when he's like i want to know what happens in the movie what do you think happens in the movie and he's like he fixes the cable

i'm watching the porno i'm sorry sorry. I just think that's so funny. 1996 Suburbia. I'm going to tell you a true story about this. I have a DVD copy of Suburbia. It's a very hard film to get your hands on. Not Blu-ray. It's never been issued on Blu-ray. You're going to have to be more specific with your terminology and your jokes.

I'm sorry. I will. You know, because then it's like the loophole that they get us on. Oh, right. Okay. Who's they? You know. Mrs. Alito.

I'd never watched this DVD of Suburbia. I bought it just to round out the collection. Okay. And popped it in last night. Turns out it was a DVD-R, which means somebody had like recorded the movie onto a DVD. Where did you buy it? Bought it on Amazon.

Okay. From a reputable seller? Yeah. I think it was just straight up from Amazon, but someone had manufactured it and there was an audio sync off

so the whole movie was one second behind the audio and the video on Match is it on streaming I assume it is I assume you can buy it

on Apple or Amazon but boy I really loved this movie in the 90s and I thought I was a really deep thinker because I was like I too am destroyed

by the banality of suburbia thank you very much Eric Bogosian for your trenchant thoughts the screenwriter of course of suburbia and it does feel it's kind of a dark side of dazed I was just gonna say it feels very much in conversation with dazed and confused it's like sometimes you're the quarterback and sometimes you're the dipshit at the convenience store and it's it's an interesting movie it's just it's really really misanthropic for a filmmaker who very rarely is. Who is not.

Yeah. And the more he tries to be satirical, cynical. He struggles with that. Like, he is very good with discomfort and figuring out like what you are

and certainly skepticism but there is like an earnest core to his filmmaking that when it goes too far the other way you're like, eh, I don't know.

Yeah, I think that's really well put. So Suburbia out, Red? Out, but with respect. With respect. Yeah. You like that he tried. And Ribisi's really good in it

and Steve Zahn's awesome in it. A very scary Nicky Cat performance. Yes, yes. Parker Posey, obviously, returning. She is a queen. 1998, The Newton Boys.

I respectfully know, but it was his big venture into what if I was a Hollywood filmmaker? It might be the movie of his that works least well. I would agree with that. You know, I didn't revisit it for this, but I think I did revisit it when we talked about

Dazed with Melissa. I rewatched it yesterday. It is actually made by a guy who doesn't know how to make a movie like this. You kind of get his ambition and there's a little bit of the like thieves like us Robert Altman intention going on here where it's like what if I make a movie that's this period gangster movie but also I like subvert our expectations

about what kind of movie this could be but it doesn't really play. 2001 Waking Life. Actually that title has not been uttered yet through one hour and 10 minutes of discussion here. This is the first rotoscope experiment. His reunion with Wiley Wiggins, who is, was he your favorite actor of the 90s? He's up there with Sizemore, yeah.

This movie is a fascinating experiment and if people thought Richard Linklater was pretty philosophical in his work till this point they got a confirmation by watching this movie

which is effectively a series of filmed and reanimated conversations and ruminations from a collection of interesting characters that he's crossed paths with

over the years including Celine and Jesse from the before films and a number of other characters. My gut is that this goes in because it's a pretty critical movie in the story of his career. It's not my favorite one of his rotoscoped films,

but I will allow it. Then do we... Do you want to jump ahead and and talk about you can yell we could yellow it right now let's yell you want to yell a waking life okay you you don't you've never seen it no i've watched part of it you think this is a movie for dorm room boys many many many the thing is is that dorm room boys need movies too. They have so many. They have so many. They have so many.

But then sometimes there are movies that help the dorm room boys grow into, you know, dorm room men that I know and love and podcast with. Yeah. Do you think you're podcasting with dorm room men right now? That's an interesting question. I think I'm a beekeeper. You know? Like you've always been a beekeeper? What would the beekeeper do with Mrs. Alito? Dispatch with her, I think.

Wasn't there someone running the beekeeper organization, though? Minnie Driver. No, she was the CIA, head of the CIA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Jeremy Irons is like afraid of everyone the most electrifying 90 seconds of film this year was

Minnie Driver on a phone talking to dead air yeah I think do you feel like you were a dorm room boy or were you fighting I mean I never lived

in a dorm yeah I know but like spiritually it's okay it's good I think I was more like a Tom Verlaine kind of downtown poet.

Absolutely. You know? Yeah. A strung out spirit telling truths all over the land. Great. Okay.

You were an athlete. Not in college. No. I was a musician. But you were an athlete of the mind. Yeah.

I was a musician of the mind as well. I was really a musician. What instrument did you play? I could play guitar but I was really a musician. What instrument did you play? I could play guitar but I was a vocalist. Why is that funny? It's true.

I wasn't a singer. I know but You were a vocalist but not a singer? I would not call it I did sing. It was hardcore. And you vocalize

to this day. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Well sing a tune for us right now I still have a video of my live performance cue it up

let's see it I'm saving it for its Blu-ray release was it directed by Linklater? we have a really nice UHD 4K coming out on the JMO Patreon of Chris's old performances we've been working

really really hard on it director's commentary the whole nine wait till I pull that off the shelf in the Criterion Closet 10 years from now. And here we have Crash Activated 1997.

How very exciting. Okay. Waking Life is yellow. Tape. Electrifying when I saw it first. I have not revisited tape in a long time. So,

very interesting experiment in storytelling. It's all one room. Was this, and it's improvised or was it written by the people in the movie? I can't remember the creative kind of process for this. It's based on a play

written by Steven Belber. You know, the setup is that it takes place in real time. So, it's effectively over a 90 minute period, one know, the setup is that it takes place in real time. So it's effectively over a 90 minute period one night where a drug dealer and his friend who is a firefighter, uh, rent a room. And I'm trying to remember like how the Uma Thurman character like comes into the setup. Um, it's a very strange, pretty uncomfortable movie.

There's a lot of angst in the sexual history between the characters. It's a fascinating experiment. It probably has not aged as well as you would want it to right now. But it feels like him trying to kind of get back to basics a little bit and in fact like the before films are maybe a better vehicle

for exploring some of these dynamics that he's interested in so to me it's a red even though it's a fascinating movie in his career history yeah

agree okay 2003 School of Rock I mean I think it has to be a green I think it's as big as it has to go in and I still honestly

enjoy this movie yeah it's fun it's interesting I as it has to go in. And I still honestly enjoy this movie. Yeah, it's fun. It's interesting. I wonder how many times he's worked with a screenwriter as accomplished as Mike White. I think it's pretty much this. And that would be one what if with him. Be like, kind of cool to see him work off of like,

you know, obviously he's like, I want to take the text and then I want to play and see what happens. But this is a really well, well done, like Hollywood movie. Massive hit. $130 million on a $35 million budget. Um, automatically in 2004 before sunset. In.

Incredibly green. Okay. So we're through 15 years of his career here. We've got five greens and one yellow things get a little bit interesting as we go along here 2005 bad news bears remake i don't think so yeah i don't think so either yeah this is a rare miss like an entire miss like i don't really the original bad news bears is perfect is a brilliant movie billy bob's not bad in it but it yeah I think that this was

like I can see why you did it and you can see he's going from extremes here where he's basically working in the sort of like red meatest of like you guys want me to make a baseball movie let's do it to hey motherfuckers scanner darkly how about that I think it's what you were describing earlier which is that he is literally doing the one for you, one for me mode so that he can get some of his experiments off the ground. The next two movies are really interesting. He directs two movies in 06.

The first is Scanner Darkly, which I assume is the rotoscope film you prefer. That's your favorite rotoscope? Out of this and Waking Life, yeah. Yeah. You haven't seen Apollo 10. You haven't seen Apollo 10. I haven't seen Apollo 10.

I apologize. This is based on a Philip K. Dick story. It is. And pretty trenchant movie when you watch it right now. It's basically about surveillance and the culture of surveillance and feeling like you're being watched all the time. Once again, Philip K. Dick has written something that has just come true in our society.

It's only happened 300 times. Very cool movie. Yeah, Downey is wild in this. Downey, Keanu Reeves, Woody Harrelson went on a rider.

Pretty stacked cast. They've all been animated. So you've never seen it? No, I've seen it. And I re-watched part of it yesterday. And I was still like,

okay, but why can't I just see Robert Downey Jr. as Robert Downey Jr., respectfully? You want to know why he chose to rotoscope i mean i understand why because they're playing different people throughout the thing and so and and i i get it but i watched those scenes and i'm like trying to imagine what the real life scene that they filmed looked like before they rotoscoped it. You know,

I think that the intention for this movie for waking life and for Apollo 10 and a half is that they're all movies that are effectively like happening inside of a complicated mind or the memory. And so the blurriness, the haziness, this kind of like slipstream of the animation style is meant to evoke a complex psyche and not like

this is happening right now yeah and so he's chosen for all three of those movies in totally different registers like one is a movie about philosophy

basically and another movie is about kind of paranoia and then the third movie is just about memory just like something that happened a long time ago

so I I think they're all like well reasoned to use this style they're not like really that fun to re-watch i find yeah um once you've seen it you feel like you've seen it i mean this is the thing that we keep saying like he is trying a lot of different things he has he has core interests he's interested in playing with form. And it's cool to try things. And then sometimes you don't need to revisit them 15 times as a viewer. Okay. So respectfully read.

You want to yellow it? I would say yellow. I would say yellow. Okay, respectfully yellow. 2006 Fast Food Nation. I did rewatch this yesterday. I rewatched it as well. As did I.

Oh, interesting. We all watched it. Well, let's talk about it a little bit. Avril lavigne is in this movie among many other people yeah i was like that was my big too like wait that is that avril lavigne and then it was in fact it feels incredibly dated and incredibly contemporary at the same time really interesting experiment of a movie that i think ultimately does not work but it it's based on a nonfiction book that Eric Schlosser wrote. He co-adapted the book with Linklater. It's all about effectively like the crisis of fast food and like the unsafe environments in which the food is created and this like treacherous series of interconnected worlds that contribute to the way that we get and eat our food in America and it's a tall task

to adapt a pretty dry piece of you know non-fiction reportage into this story and some of the strands I feel like once you're getting invested in something he's like

okay let's go over here now and it's very alt mini and very kind of like sprawling and he keeps introducing new characters and you've got like Paul Dano and Glenn Powell are like high school kids working at, you know, a fast food joint.

And then also Louie Guzman is like a coyote, like running immigrants out of Mexico and into the United States. And then you've also got Chris Christopherson is like a longtime cattle hand who knows how things really work in the world of you know meat farming like it's really and Greg Kinnear is kind of like the anchor of the movie and he's a newly hired CMO

at a McDonald's style fast food chain who is learning in real time just how kind of toxic literally toxic a lot of the

the food that is made at this company that he has to help sell actually is it's kind of all over the place i'm curious like what you mean by dated in terms of well even the kind of 2006 political sensibility and like i think kind of like this is the truth like we've kind of like i've it had almost like that michael moore feeling of like i'm coming to you with like this uncut but the funny thing about it

is like I think maybe how little things have changed you know what I mean like over the years that despite the rise of like popular vegan and vegetarian diets and everything and our awareness of what what this is doing to the planet people still eat meat people still go to McDonald's you know uh there's a there's an almost like, that was cool when we tried moment to it. Yeah. There was like that specific moment when we were like, wow, did you know that fast food in America's how we get our food, but it's also kind of like a larger thing about American consumerism and who gets lost in the great wheel that is American capitalism. There are some bracing scenes. Yeah, but so it's, and I think it would be hard to make this movie without getting at those larger points, but it doesn't, because as you said, it's so sprawling, it doesn't totally land all of it. It feels like it's a little bit over here and then like a little bit over there.

Yeah, there's a version of it that's just Kinnear and it's like Spotlight, but the fast food industry. Right. I think he very purposefully was trying to, and I don't think he was checking boxes per se but trying to show that there is this way he's like the Catalina Sandino Moreno plot and that scene

with her in the factory and like seeing the cows the the slaughter the slaughters yeah and you can feel him

trying to get a big thesis across that is not just sometimes there's a white savior who's an executive in a big company like he was that would have been the movie version of this in 1996 in 2006 i think you're right there was a kind of like crusading do-gooderism to left-leaning american artistic political action that was very sincere candidly like and i was i was right there with him at the

time but pretty, like, a little overheated, a little, like, self-important in a way. And now, it's funny to look at a movie like this, because I know what you're saying.

Maybe this is just me, but I don't think so. We're so, like, cynical and nihilistic and, like, I know everything's terrible about everything. Yeah.

And so just, like, what the fuck are we going to do about it? Right, right, right. And so defeated. Yeah. This movie is, like, ultimately idealistic.

It's like, we've got to do something about this, you know? That's defeated. Yeah. This movie is like ultimately idealistic. It's like we gotta do something about this. You know, that's what the idea of the movie is. There are scenes from multiple Linklater films

where characters have this conversation. Right. Like why do you care if nothing, if we're just gonna be dead in 50 years? Yeah.

It's like because I understand humanity. Like Giovanni Ribisi's character in Suburbia like does this speech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you fall? Should we just give up?

Yeah. Move to Paris? They love McDonald's there. Do they? Oh, yeah. Still going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Royale with cheese?

Yeah. Also, you know, the egg McMuffin protein for one euro. Oh, yeah. The killer. Yeah. There we go.

Oh, right. I thought it was literally called the killer for a second. I got confused. How's your macro stuff going? You know, it's been an interesting experience because I just really haven't been cooking very much it was literally called the killer for a second. I got confused. How's your macro stuff going? Uh, yeah, it's been an interesting experience because I just really haven't been

cooking very much because my wife has been in and out of town a lot. So I've just been, is she out of town right now? She's not, but she is going back out of town. Uh, Sunday. God damn it.

Okay. I'm going to text her. Uh, but yes, I have not been really on top of my macros, but not honestly not eating poorly. I'm more like I'm, I'm eating like basically soylent, except it's not actually,

but like I'm like, this is just food and it goes in me. Okay. The Sean diet. It's called fuel. I'm launching a new fast food chain called Fuel. You and Solek? Yep. He's going to need it.

He's a dad now. Is Ed Norton investing? Honestly, I'm open. So, Edward, if you'd like to call me, please do. Okay. So, that movie, I think, is a red. Fast Food Nation. Very noble, interesting film.

Also, as you noted last week, the first of the many Glenn Powell, Richard Linklater collaborations. Their bond begins here. Yeah. This is their first of four. 2008, inning by inning, A Portrait of a Coach. I have watched this film. I have not seen it in a very long time. This is their first of four. 2008, inning by inning, a portrait of a coach. I have watched this film. I have not seen it

in a very long time. This is a rare documentary in his oeuvre. It's a portrait of Augie Garrido, who is the winningest coach in baseball, college baseball history.

Yeah, long time coach of Texas. One of the stars of this film, Roger Clemens. What are your Roger Clemens thoughts? I recognize the name. I am of this film, Roger Clemens. What are your Roger Clemens thoughts? I recognize the name.

I am not a fan of Roger Clemens or his work. Not a fan? No. Is it because of the steroids? Although I think his kid is on the Phillies. Oh, he was a steroids guy? He was, yeah. Yes, I think his kid is in the Phillies system.

Phillies system. What's his name? Cody, I think. Cody? Cody Clemens. Oh, yeah. I remember him coming out and hugging his dad when he would throw a no Clemens. Oh yeah. I remember him like coming out and hugging his dad

when he would throw a no hitter or something. Let me tell you Roger Clemens was fucking good at baseball. He seemed like a real dickhead but he was very very good.

Bob is that accurate? Oh my God. He's amazing. If you watch him in the 1986 World Series like early Red Sox before any of the steroid stuff it's just awesome.

One of the most aesthetically pleasing pitchers ever. I thought he was incredible as a Red Sox player any of the steroid stuff. It's just awesome. One of the most aesthetically pleasing pitchers ever. I thought he was incredible as a Red Sox player, but like him going, like doing the tour of the ALEs. When he went to the Blue Jays, you didn't like that so much? Not so much.

Interesting. Okay. Inning by inning, a portrait of a coach I don't think is in the Hall of Fame. Okay. Okay. 2011, Bernie.

I'm feeling like maybe Bernie is in. What are your thoughts on Bernie? I don't like this movie a super lot because I have a little bit movie a super lot because I have a little bit of a Jack Black allergy welcome it's okay

now that you've mentioned that the streets will come for me about that his fans are online but I think that this is a dazzling piece of

almost borderline like Hollywood movie making where it's like it's a Hal Ashby movie yeah the Texas Greek chorus is phenomenal awesome yeah and very I don't know almost borderline like Hollywood movie making where it's like It's a Hal Ashby movie. Yeah. The Texas Greek chorus is phenomenal. Awesome.

Yeah. And very ahead of its time in the Texas monthly true crime kind of like subgenre. I mean this is based

on a Skip Hollinsworth story which is what Hitman is also based on a Skip story. Skip and Rick are friends. There's no Hitman in that Bernie for sure.

Totally. Very much in the same lineage um interesting performances i think from mcconaughey and jack black and shirley mclean dark comedy is really hard arguably the most difficult after satire genre of movie to make uh i think it works really well i like this movie a lot it's also populated with a bunch of people who have even if they're not even if they're actors I've never seen before and like it just feels like there's this like really cool juxtaposition

of like three giant movie stars with a bunch of people who seem like they actually live in this Texas town. Yes, in this small town. And the small town people kind of walk away with it in my opinion.

I will yellow it. Okay. Yeah, okay. I think it's very well regarded. But it's... I think it's a new phase for him. Maybe it's like... Might be just on the outside.

I was about to say orange but no, yellow and green makes... No. Very well regarded. But it's... I think it's a new phase for him. Maybe it's like... Might be just on the outside. I was about to say orange, but no, yellow and green makes... No. Yellow and green makes... Blue. No, blue is... Blue and yellow make green.

I have a lot of books about this. So yellow and... What do yellow and green put together? I thought yellow and green make brown. Yellow and blue make green. I said that. So yellow... Wouldn't yellow and green

then make blue? Chartreuse. Okay. Like a lime green? Yeah, sure. Okay. Okay, so Bernie is Chartreuse. Bobby, let's make sure we've got that right, that color framing that no one will ever see.

Well, according to Google, lime green is it. So Amanda, you hit the nail on the head. Lime green. Excellent work. Oh, great. There we go. Thank you so much. We're working on colors at home right now.

Okay, 2013, Before Midnight. I'd like to have a discussion about this movie. Okay. This movie is incredible. I'm in my 40s. Chris is in his 40s. Congratulations to both of you. How's it going?

You keep getting your shots in. We just know on the other side of the fence. I mean, the clock is literally ticking. Me and fantasy. Every single day. I have a fucking lot of knowledge for you. Okay. This movie was made 11 years ago.

It is only just now becoming resonant for me. Not in so far as like I'm in an unhappy marriage, although the characters in this movie aren't in an unhappy marriage, but the accumulation of stress and anxiety that comes with a lived life is a really fascinating thing to focus a movie on that honestly does not happen very often in Hollywood.

It's very rare. It's much more common to get before sunrise or before sunset than to get before midnight. I think this movie is very hard to take and so it doesn't have the reputation that the two previous films do.

When you get to the end of it, you're like, fuck. I'm on the other side of my life. I'm on the back half of my life and that is something

that is very hard for most people to cope with and contend with. I really think it's a very brave piece of movie. I was going to say it's one of the bravest things i've ever seen someone try to do in the movies is to take

a totally perfect film and be like what would happen a decade later yeah and if there were if these people who you were basically like that's goals right there that's how i want like love to feel and then they were like you're really annoying the shit out of me 10 years later. You're a little older. You're a little uglier. You're a little fatter. You have annoying kids. And even though you're in paradise, things are bad.

It's like they're just in Greece living it up. And they cannot resist gnawing at each other. Yeah. The way that married couples gnaw at each other. And then, obviously, like, the set piece fight in the hotel. Yeah. Like, Delpy and Hawk just going for it. Yeah. You know that married couples know each other. And then obviously like the set piece fight in the hotel. Yeah. Like Delpy and Hawk just going for it.

Yeah. You know, interesting movie. Like actually did pretty well. Made very modestly. Made $25 million. Oscar nominated. Linklater still never won an Oscar.

Just criminal. It's weird to put all three in but I kind of feel like it has to go in. Yeah. I think it's weird. Any other thoughts on Before Midnight?

How many movies do we have? Right now that are in we have three we have six. Okay. We also have three yellows at the moment. Okay.

We've got two, four, six more. So Before Midnight is in what do you guys think of Boyhood? This whatever wherever it is 10 years on. I mean so he hasn't

won an Oscar but this was widely nominated. Like this is his most celebrated I think at least in an Oscar, but this was widely nominated. This is his most celebrated, I think, at least in an Oscar sense. I rewatched. Okay, let me be very honest. This movie is three hours long, so I didn't rewatch all of it.

But I did because I hadn't seen it in several years. So I revisited parts of it. I'm like, oh, he's five. Oh, he's nine. You guys were potting during when Boyd came out. No. Not yet?

Oh, no, it's still Grayland. It was 2014, yeah. At the time, I remember my reaction to it being pretty muted. Okay. Rewatching it,

you know, especially now that I have a little boy in my life. The Astros have won multiple world series yeah sure like I was drawn to it it's an amazing experiment that's also in some ways like a thesis of

if Linklater is just like about a series you know moments in life which he is and he has his characters say often. Like it's an amazing representation of that. It is also like a three-hour movie like that doesn't have like the three-act structure. You know, it's just, it's kind of like ambling along.

So it has a lot of amazing moments. I still wasn't like, this is my favorite of his films. I think it's a massive achievement that I don't often feel compelled to revisit. Exactly. I also think you just touched on something that's really interesting about a person with this many movies under their belt

and with this many experiences in Hollywood and also working on his own, which is like, he just doesn't really do plot. Like, and that's actually kind of stands out with Hitman is how deeply plotted it is without getting too into the weeds

about it. It's, you're right, it's a three hour movie where like I kind of can't remember what happens other than the divorce

and a camping trip and a baseball game because Baseball game is so great though. It's awesome. I mean. It's awesome. There's awesome moments

in this movie. Are you going to come out and be like Boyhood is the one? In 2014 when it came out I had it at number 11 of my top 50 movies of the year,

which is too low. It should have been higher. What was one through 10? Whiplash, Inherent Vice, Top 5. Remember Top 5? Yeah.

My dad loved that movie and my husband hated sitting next to my dad watching that movie. It's a great movie. It seems weird to have Top 5 ahead of Under the Skin

and Gone Girl now, but I did back then. It was a very fun movie. You know, we're also we're also we're making i also like this culture of accountability that you're developing i'm i'm working through it selma was six okay ito was seven birdman was eight i definitely would not put that there having revisited most violent year was nine the babadook 10 and boyhood was 11 okay that's interesting so it would probably be six now if I had to guess. Okay. Maybe five. It's just one of those movies where I'm like,

this is just like very close to my life. Like it's just very, a lot of what happens to Eller Coltrane's characters is very, very close to my life. So I think I almost was like rejecting it the first time I saw it, where single mom, bad boyfriend, having siblings, being like comfortable in your skin, but not

comfortable as a kid, not really knowing how to deal with what had happened to your family. It's weird when like art is like, feels very, very close to the bone like that. And it was also a filmmaker who I had a huge relationship with. And I already felt like, wow, has a director ever nailed high school the way that Dazed and Confused nails high school? You know, he just seemed to understand something about me. And so I think I was a little bit like, wow, has a director ever nailed high school the way that Dazed and Confused nails high school? You know, he just seemed to understand something about me. And so I think I was a little bit like afraid of the movie. And then I watched it probably like three or four years ago and I was like, this is crazy how amazingly conceived and executed it is.

Even though what you guys are saying is true, which is like, it is kind of aimless and it is more experiment than it is, even though what you guys are saying is true, which is like, it is kind of aimless and it is more experiment than it is movie, ultimately. But the fact that it got to the place that it got, it's pretty staggering. And shame on me

because, like, actually, like, the Patricia Arquette character, like, moving house is actually the most important thing that could happen in a movie and not, like, does he get to the end

of the Fury Road? It's like, like, I understand how obnoxious it sounds to be like, not a lot happens in this movie, even though it's like a life. Yeah, I think it's more in the spirit of like a Michael Aptead documentary than it is a typically narrative-driven movie. It's also like, Birdman was also a movie that had a kind of gimmick

affixed to its narrative. And that's the movie that won Best Picture that year. And this really like, in the arc of movies you'd be like that was Richard Linklater's year to your point I know it had so many nominations

Patricia Arquette won for Supporting Actress that year Ethan Hawke was nominated like it will go down as one of his significant achievements for sure

and it's still in the Hall of Fame yeah no it's absolutely great it's in the Hall of Fame what's your what's your take on his Beatles theory

you remember this remind me I can't so Ethan Hawke gives the Alar Coltrane character his version of the Black Album, which is all the Beatles solo material arranged together in like a perfect, to Ethan Hawke's character.

Like one John, one Paul, one George, one Ringo. And sequenced just so, because his theory is there is no favorite Beatle. It's the balance that makes it all work out. The thing about... Chris doesn't care

because he doesn't like the Beatles. I like the Beatles fine. They're just an inferior band to the Rolling Stones. Okay. This is Chris's last episode. Alice pulled the Paul McCartney lyrics book off.

And so we just played a game where I was like, turn to a page and we'll play the song. So we would just like, she would just like open the book, flip to a page. It was really fun. I guess there's some truth to that. I like all the solo stuff though,

for all four of them. I can find Ringo songs and I'm like, this song, it's great. So I don't, I don't, of course they were better together, but most bands when they're like

speaking of the stones yeah you know Mick Jagger solo shit like not bad it's got not bad it's got some jams is it imagine uh no but like if Mick Jagger had died I think you would have that's why I imagine was acclaimed I didn't say that I would take Boo Koola Blues over any. I just think it's weird that John Lennon just stole that whole thing from Forrest Gump though. No religion too? Okay.

So, Boyhood is in. Yeah. And Everybody Wants Some is in. Everybody Wants Some is in. It's absolute green. Watch Everybody Wants Some. Where can you watch it? Is it on Paramount Plus?

I'm Googling. I'd love to Google that for you. You don't have these problems. Just gleaming Blu-rays on your show. I own all these films on physical. It seems to be a part of the MGM Plus subscription.

Is that now a part? Is that your stars? What is that one? I think it's also on Paramount. It's a smaller subscription service that is owned by Amazon that has its own unique output. Well, I'm Googling Paramount. It's not coming up. Most things on MGM Plus eventually go to Amazon, but if they license something, I don't really get that.

It doesn't matter. It's a wonderful film about going to college and playing baseball with your boys and then getting in a tube in a river going down that river with a gal looking her in the eyes being like thanks for being in this tube with me oh man you know you go to a party you meet a guy who's a punk rocker you're like maybe i like punk rock maybe i am a punk actually i'm into van halen just kidding i'm in the early fleetwood mac you know it is apparently available on paramount plus good job okay i also i do i do really find that everybody wants them as like a major reference in how i relate to my son and like what i imagine that he's gonna be and he does have like a bit of link later character in him for sure but um when i'm trying to understand what the future could be for him. I often think of this group of boys.

Of him being Glenn Powell. Well, I, which maybe that would be, that'd be great. But this is really, this is a, this is a good advertisement for masculinity, in my opinion. I will say that there is a guy and everybody wants him who plays Nesbitt. It's Austin Amelio and he's a standout performer and everybody wants him. And he almost steals Hitman he's so funny in Hitman

yeah people will see when they watch it he's fantastic okay everybody wants him is green last flag flying how is this not an

awesome movie well I think it's a very very downbeat film yeah but like so is last detail I mean like how what do you think

maybe holds this movie back a little bit? So it's essentially, it's written by the same authors, co-written by Daryl Ponskin. So it's Steve Carell and Lawrence Fishburne and Bryan Cranston, all arguably operating

around the peaks of their powers. Yep. And is about Carell taking his recently killed son, his body, to Arlington on this long road trip. Hard to believe it's not a rollicking good time. I didn't say, why didn't this do anyone but you numbers? I'm just curious.

It doesn't really work for me, and I don't know whether it's the casting or if it's what it is. I think casting has a bit to do with that. And that's unfair to Carell, who should get to do whatever he wants. But sometimes it's hard to look at Steve Carell in particular and not want the voice of Gru or whatever. Do you know who Gru is? Who Gru is? That's good.

Yeah, not want him to get his chest hair taken off by a masseuse yeah what if he just played the 40 year old virgin as Doc from Last Flag Flying would that work I I have affection

for this movie the first time Linklater came on the pod was for this film I'm sure that that is contributing to my respect for it I think it's also

it's an Amazon movie and it was at a time when I think I was writing about this on The Ringer at the time. It was right after Manchester by the Sea, right?

Yeah, and they were like okay, basically the new indie cinema is Amazon paying people who were making movies in the 90s and this was his version of Manchester by the Sea.

I think it's very good. I think Fishburne is incredible in it. It's just a very sad story about a very like sad period in American history and it's just a very sad story about a very like sad period in american history and it's okay to make a morose drama sometimes you know it just it is a morose drama it sounds like uh you because you don't respect vietnam veterans you want it to be read all right uh

for we i think we skipped me and orson wells oh we did why is it not even oh yeah i completely biffed that so me and orson wells comes in 2008 which comes after ending by ending a portrait of a coach uh how did i not have on the list so what do you guys think of this movie i think it's okay i think it's okay yeah i think it's pretty good it's fine yeah i also like you know old hollywood is that christian mckay plays Orson Welles? Christian McKay. He does a great job. He does. I think it's an overlooked movie that's not in the Hall of Fame.

Yeah. I really enjoy Zac Efron in this movie. I think he's turning in a great performance. Claire Danes, Zoe Kazan, and Kelly Riley, worth showing up for. Three of my faves. Is this before Homeland? When does Homeland start? Yeah.

Homeland is 2012 2012 that was four years before that was me and Andy's bread and butter yeah I mean that I remember

recapping episodes of Homeland honestly it's like the first like 40 episodes of The Hollywood Prospectus season 8 yeah we didn't go that long

I think we after how many people were listening to those episodes? I have no idea if you had to venture a guess well I think we we touched a lot of people who didn't listen you know what i mean like where it's like if you heard it physically because there were so few if you heard it you started your own pod kind of like the velvet underground wow the homeland and down

abbey pods that was you guys were you're lou reed and mo tucker for sure sterling morrison can i tell you something i've been re-watchingon Abbey like when I need something truly mindless for 10 minutes. And I promised myself I would only do season one. You know, I was like, I'll just like do season one until I find another show to kind of fill it in. I'm on season six right now. Are they making another movie? Yeah, but they swear it'll be the last one. But like Michelle Dockery still.

But if no one has re-podcasted that i would really like to do that because i just have so many fucking thoughts about like i just can't believe what they're doing to bates and anna already you know it's like enough in season six in season six like do you know how much they've been through right and now we have to do this again and i gotta watch bates just be like it's okay i love you no matter what but maybe i'm a murderer i'm come on i'll watch a new don abby movie every year if they make one i'm just in on that world just be like, it's okay. I love you no matter what, but maybe I'm a murderer. Come on. I'll watch a new Downton Abbey movie every year if they make one. I'm just in on that world.

Have you seen the movies? I have not. You haven't seen any of the films? I think I saw the first one. They're just like exceptional episodes of Downton Abbey. So here's the thing. The first one is like, they just made two episodes of Downton Abbey

and they sewed them together. The second one is like, they just did a Christmas special. Oh yeah. And it's wonderful. And then go to the South of France and they sewed them together. This second one is like they just did a Christmas special. Oh, yeah. And it's wonderful. And then go to the south of France and you got to watch it. It's on Peacock. It's about the introduction of sound and filmmaking,

which is being an English chamber drama. Speaking of Claire Danes, bringing it back together. Do you like the Downton Abbey movies more than the Hobbit movies? Without question. I find the Hobbit films, despite what we shared. But you and I are going every day the day after Christmas to a Hobbit movie.

I think eating each other Christmas cookies was a wonderful experience. And then walking out singing the Dwarf songs. Okay. We're going to go back from... This film was read,

me and Orson Welles. Yeah, right. I think it's worth checking out it's very different from almost any movie he made it probably is the most in common with the

Newton boys where there's like a framework for what kind of a story it is and it doesn't quite feel like a Linklater movie but it has some good stuff in it

2019 where'd you go Bernadette I'm just gonna say I don't mind this movie I kind of like it yeah we didn't either yeah it's another like

I like that you tried yeah you know right it's really hard's, it's, it's really hard because like, it's a Billy Crudup movie.

Yeah. Not a Cate Blanchett movie in a lot of ways, but, I don't know. I found this movie kind of charming. Is it Crudup

that has you like feeling warmer towards it? I think I just thought it was like, I'm glad, whenever I saw it, I was like, I think it was like

kind of massacred critically and box office wise. It was. And I saw it, I was like i'm glad i whenever i saw it i was like i think it was like kind of massacred critically and it was office wise and i saw it i was like what are you guys talking about this is totally fine a very successful book by maria sample that because of the way that it's written which isn't like you know lots of emails and yeah like characters around the character of bernadette you know as you said likeate Blanchett is the star of this film. And as the title indicates, it's like not around other people for a lot of it. So it's sort of awkward to translate. And then they just had that weird fake Antarctica for a while at the end. But I agree.

I really liked that everyone wanted to have a go. It's red. Yeah. It's red. Yeah. It's okay. Apollo 10 and a half. I think we were even I remember we were like relatively nice to it

or just kind of like huh this is interesting sometimes you gotta try stuff and then we got feedback of people just being like what is wrong with you guys? Those are the early days of shut the fuck up idiot.

Which you know it happens from time to time. Apollo 10 and a half. So you guys haven't seen this movie. Yeah, tell us about it. I think I already did. You know, it's about a family in Texas.

One of those great podcasts. Tell us all about it. I was ready for a story. I don't really have a story to tell. It's the third of his rotoscoping movies. What is this space age childhood like? So he just watches the space?

It's a 10-year-old boy living in Houston in the 60s who's observing the space race and then imagining himself being a participant in the space race. And so it's like the Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong story seen through the prism of this family in Texas and this little boy and his interest in sort of like what this could mean for him, what it means for America at the time, what it means to be nostalgic about significant moments in American history. It's funny, like I don't really feel like, do you feel like you have, this is a useful

exercise at the end of the pod. I don't really feel like I have a lot of history, like memories of great moments in American history in my lifetime. You do? I don't. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, it's been a tough beat.

Yeah, it's been. But I've been alive for 42 years. Yeah. So. But like. You know, for my parents. You were born in the Reagan era. Uh-huh.

Then. You got to see Bill Clinton play sax on Arsenio Hall. Yeah, that's true. I said great moments in American history. And then, you know, really from there, anything in those 20 years would have just been

consumer achievements, not, you know, national achievements. You think when Cap caught the hammer, would that go on the list? I mean, that's really, that's you, you know?

No, not there not what about like is there one for you guys like Spielberg's Lincoln when he's like no no no like this is a movie about being 10 years old when they landed

on the fucking moon and being like oh my god it's the world of imagination that opens up yeah this is not the moon and I'd like to get back to the moon in a second

but you remember when Carrie Strug hit the vault with one leg oh my my god. Really? This is the best we can do? I straight up agree with you and also like now that we know how those gymnasts were you know it's like all of it's very ugly. Yeah cancel

her. Go in. Take her down. Not Carrie Strug. Respect Carrie Strug. I just I was 12 in Atlanta. It was an inspirational moment. It was an inspirational moment. And that was like vaguely related to this country the rock tweeting about bin laden is mike kerry's drug

right he broke the news right yeah but how did that happen he tweeted it no but how like how did he become aware of it

i don't know was he texting with biden i don't know i never i don't think so he's abandoning him. I know. I know.

We know that. I'm not sure how he found out. I would imagine he's got some friends. Also not known for being on time, The Rock. So it's like, how did he? I know.

But he's got friends in the forward operating community, maybe. The forward operating? Yeah. This is a forward action. Yeah. Okay, cool.

Those are really good examples from both of you. It's not Bin Laden's assassination. It's the rock breaking news of... Okay, cool. Where are you on the moon landing? But he wasn't alive for it. Where am I on it?

Like, do I think it happened? I mean, yeah. I'm open to a wide variety of ideas on this. I think it happened? I mean, yeah. I'm open to a wide variety of ideas on this. I think it definitely happened. Okay. Yeah. That's never been one that I questioned. It happened when we were on a soundstage in Burbank.

Yes. Yeah, I guess you're right. A lot of the stuff that's happened in our lifetime, it's when you're like, what are the sort of memorable moments that are like pretty bad? Even the bad moments that our parents or our grandparents experienced had a kind of, you know, storming Omaha Beach.

That's a terrible thing that happened. But it's a triumphant moment in American history. It's the defeat of fascism. Right. But that's mostly just, I mean, that is true. They defeated fascism. But also the boomers just love to make it about themselves and how they did good. But you're saying millennials don't like to make it about themselves?

I mean, they certainly do yeah so it's like is doing a get ready with me instagram the same thing is storming a lot beach what would be on your get ready instagram get ready with me you should do one uh it's it's the same thing every morning okay it's the same thing every morning i have my my same beauty and skincare routine every morning. It's the same thing every morning. I have my same beauty and skin care routine every morning and then I have a bowl of Greek yogurt with a banana, blueberries, and a little bit of granola. Okay. And then you take a garden spade full of Soylent and pour

it down your throat. And then I read The Guardian. The newspaper. You should consider filming yourself just reading the newspaper every morning and see if people are just like this is my shit

it might work I may I may I'm just worried about who I've alienated with my Mrs. Alito takes I think the Guardian is going to be fine

with you I think Apollo 10 and a half while a movie worth watching and not a lot of people watched it is red do they what

does like the moon landing happen in Apollo 10 and a half we should check the movie out movie worth watching and not a lot of people watched it is Red. Do they what? Does like the moon landing happen in Apollo 10 and a half? We should check the movie out. Have you considered that? It couldn't be the worst thing that would happen. And Glenn Powell plays

a 10 year old? No. He's the dad. Oh boy. He's the dad. How do you know? Because I saw an ad for it and I kind of like

Guys we gotta get to Ron Howard here. Ron Howard is coming up on the pod. 2023 Hitman. This is, or 2024 Hitman. This is what I really wanted to ask you about without spoiling the movie. Do you think this movie

should go in his Hall of Fame? How many slots do we have left? So right now we have three, five, eight greens and three yellows. Scanner Darkly, Waking Life, and Bernie. And Bernie. I think Bernie should probably go in.

So if Bernie goes in and at least one of the rotoscopes are going in, then Hitman is not going in. It's very hard to put a most recent film in a Hall of Fame. I know, I do like this exercise. Yeah, but sometimes we do it. I don't know how I can say this

without talking about how I feel about the movie even though this will probably be my only opportunity to do so you have several other podcasts I don't think so I don't think it should go

into the Hall of Fame of Richard Linklater but I do acknowledge that it may quickly rise in people's estimation higher than a Scanner Darkly

or Bernie I would put it over all three of the yellows I would put it over all three of the yellows. I would put it over Bernie. I think it's cool to put him in in the Hall of Fame. I think it's a brave choice. Thank you so much.

Yeah. And you guys make brave choices on this pod. I think it's going in. Okay, great. Which of the three yellows is going in? I think that you've just

you just informed us that it's a rotoscope. So. Waking life or a scanner darkly. Scanner darkly. Yeah, that's fine with me. That doesn't feel historically correct, but I'm not,

I'm willing to let you have a scanner darkly. Well then, then fine. Make your waking life case. It finally got contentious. And it's about Philip K. Dick and rotoscoping. Do you think we should take out. Waking life because it was his first foray into this medium? This should be the entry, even though Scanner Darkly is a more interesting movie probably to me. Not so sure about that. I

mean, maybe you're right. Maybe it is. I'd love to, I'd love to get a straw poll of all the Linklater heads out there. We should do live, like a rewatch pod of Scanner Darkly and Waking Life back to back with amanda probably would be one of our more successful episodes um i'll get i'll get i'll i'll scanner darkly it is okay okay for the sake of wrapping this up so the richard linklater hall of fame is as follows 1990 slacker 1993 dazed and Confused, 1995, Before Sunrise, 2003, School of Rock, 2004, Before Sunset, 2006, A Scanner Darkly, 2013, Before Midnight, 2014, Boyhood, 2016, Everybody Wants Some, and 2024, Hitman.

Feel good? Yeah. I feel great. Yeah. Any last minute notes? What's your favorite Ron Howard movie? Apollo 13. What's your second favorite?

Is it Cinderella Man? Is it Solo? Da Vinci Code. Da Vinci Code. First one. Oh, yeah. It might actually be Da Vinci Code. I actually like the paper quite a bit.

I know you don't. And I also like Black Draft. Splash? I was never a huge Splash guy. What? You know what? I actually have to say that I was never... Daryl Hannah never really...

All right. Settle down. I think she's beautiful, but she was never really my cup of tea. So before we go to Ron Howard, you want it to be known that Daryl Hannah is not a good actor? I didn't say that. Rush is good.

I like Rush. 13 Lives, did you end up watching it? Yes, I did. That was good. Frost Nixon. I like that. I like that too. Yeah. This guy's made a lot of a lot of film ransom ransom ransom ransom ransom's cool you just don't like the paper i really don't like the third act oh because you don't like it that he punches her in the face i don't like that i don't really understand that whole sequence the movie

changes entirely parenthood's nice very good. Just sorry that woke culture has finally come for Ron Howard here. Yeah. Go woke or go broke. That's what they say. Gung Ho? I like Gung Ho, but also not appropriate. Did you and Ron Howard

talk about how you watched Toebell Allergy on election day 2020? Didn't come up. Oh, I thought... Oh, is that what you watched on election day? Yeah.

I thought... And then you watched... What did you watch the day Alice was born? The Night House. It's a funny bit. It's not a bit though. You're a fucking psycho. You'd think it would be a bit, like even the Hillbilly Elegy thing, I was like, it might

be a good time to fire this up. It's like 2 p.m. All right. Well, with all due respect, let's go to my conversation now with Ron Howard. Delighted to be joined by Ron Howard to talk about his new film, Jim Henson, Idea Man. Ron, this is your seventh documentary in the last 10 years. What's going on? Why are you so interested in docs right now? I've always been interested in them, but I was always terrified of them and intimidated. And finally, I had this opportunity that Brian Grazer kind of created for me to do a behind the scenes of this Jay-Z music festival that he was curating. And, and I had no

time to really think about it. And so I went ahead and, and, and, and leapt into it. And, and, um, and it was, um, and I wound up having a really good experience. Uh, I've always admired the directors like Jonathan Demme or Martin Scorsese or Spike Lee that move back and forth between scripted and the documentary world. And I've often read them saying, you know, that one kind of informs the other. And I've found that to be the case. Since then, Brian and I have really developed a documentary branch of Imagine. And Sarah Bernstein and Justin Wilkes and the people who run it, they keep creating these opportunities for me or bringing opportunities to me that are exciting. And so basically, I always have a doc project that I'm nursing along as I'm working on my scripted stuff. I just finished shooting a movie called eden about eight or nine weeks ago um but you know the whole time i was continuing to engage

uh on jim henson idea man uh and it's a different kind of deadline and i find it really refreshing once in a while to sort of pull away from that thing that's kind of front and center and and and and work on a some another set of creative problems. And one thing often informs the other. Although Eden is a cautionary tale, true crime thriller, and Jim Henson is a celebration of creativity. So these two didn't have a lot in common. This is sort of a schizophrenic creative year for me, I think.

I'm curious about that too, because with a feature film, you know, the script is a blueprint for you and you start building from there. With a doc, obviously you have the life of someone like Jim Henson, but where do you start? I mean, did you, was his life even too big for a feature? You know, there's so much to potentially cover. So how do you start covering someone's life like this? When we first began researching, I did wonder if we should be tackling this as a series instead. But our partners at Disney, Disney+, really felt like it should be a feature.

And we began to narrow it down. And we want to be the comprehensive movie, but I also hope that what we're, what we're doing with this is stimulating people's curiosity about Jim Henson, because there's a lot to read. There's a lot to see and, and, and it can all be found. It's just the, you know, the outpouring of creativity was kind of staggering, but I, you know, I just felt like that this, we had a chance to both, you know, celebrate and show respect for these projects that we know about. Tell the origin story of how those those, you know, iconic characters and great projects came to be. Then there's also this incredible archive of stuff that was experimental uh maybe a little too bold for its moment didn't actually become commercial or high profile or didn't even get finished uh he you know

he was a you know a walking laboratory when it came to creativity so we have that then in meeting the family and talking to the kids and understanding their very clear-eyed, very mature perspective on their lives growing up, the projects, what they meant to them, and their mother and father and their relationship, I realized there's an interesting family story here too. And that's so human and so relatable. So I immediately just saw that there was this way to kind of triangulate things, but I didn't know what the structure would be. And you can't really decide that even when you're talking about a life that's already been lived, you can't really know until you start doing the interviews and you really start gathering the archival footage and you

start looking at the moments that you know you want to feature. And you start hearing observations that people make that you have on camera that you know you want to reinforce. And that really winds up defining the structure. So it's really different. Hanson as a character is fascinating. I'm sure I'm like so many people that you've talked to while working on this or that are going to see the movie that so many things he made impacted me personally, sensibility wise. And you think of like the antic humor, you think of the

kindness, you think of the creativity, but you open the film essentially with this interview where he's being photographed and you see a real kind of melancholy and almost like a reflection of the amount of time that he is spending on this world that he has built for himself that I found so fascinating and revelatory. Like maybe you can talk about that part of the character and even finding that conversation. Well, first of all, Jim didn't really love to be interviewed. And of course, you know know as a result his interviews are are kind of pro forma he kind of says the same thing over and over in various ways um he didn't really come to life until he had a puppet on his hand uh you know or he was directing a scene behind the camera

jane his wife was even more reluctant and yet their stories were so vital. No one knows that Jane was as central to defining and launching the Muppets and that empire than Jane. I mean, she was right there with Jim and not just encouraging, but collaborating. It was very significant. So really wanted to get those ideas across, but we, you know, the search for, like we found an audio tape that Jane did that was, she was thinking about writing an article about something and she, she did, you know, she's just sort of spit out some notes on an audio tape. Terrible quality, but in the digital era, we were able to clear that up, focus it, and it was incredibly valuable. It came in late. We also found some terrific photos that Lisa Henson, their oldest daughter, did when she was in high school and had a camera and was

practicing photography. She wound up taking some great pictures of her, of her mother, uh, that were really, um, you know, helpful and useful. So it's just this, it's this ongoing journey. I remember on the, on the, I did a documentary about the Beatles touring years, and it was on the very last day of interviews that we, we interviewed a woman named Lemon Oliver, and she talked about, she was African-American, is African-American, and talked about this concert that was supposed to be segregated, and the Beatles refused to play if it was segregated. And she was there, and suddenly she found herself in the unusual space of being like alongside a bunch of white kids and they were all loving the same stuff. Well, we knew about that. We even had a mention.

But it's one thing to sort of say the Beatles refused to play unless it was desegregated. And it's another thing to have somebody explaining what it meant, you know, and that came in late and it just changed the structure of that documentary. So it's, it's, it's really, um, you know, a different proposition. I love post-production in scripted or non-scripted. And, uh, so I, I find myself really comfortable there, but I'm learning to sort of trust this high wire act, which is, you know, launch, believe in your research, get your interviews, be ready to go back and interview people a second time. There, you know, there are all these things that lifelong documentarians take for granted that for me, the semi-rookie, uh, you know, I'm still kind of, um, still kind of discovering, but it's, uh, it's fascinating.

Yeah. I can feel you getting better at the interviewing as I see more and more of the films, you know, the Frank Oz conversation. So fascinating. And very early in the film, he talks about how internal and quiet Jim was and how there obviously was this big inner life,

but even Frank Oz, it seems like maybe doesn't totally have access to what was going on with Jim Henson. Like that's a real challenge for a filmmaker too. Jim was kind of a paradox to people other than they, they clearly loved him and so appreciated his approach to life, to work, to them.

They never, even as hard as he worked, they never felt pushed or abused by him. He just led by example and, and tried to make things fun. He wanted it to be fun for himself. And it was a sandbox for him. You know, he didn't, he didn't really need to go on vacation because he was, might've been tired, but he was tired in the way that somebody who, you know, spends two straight days at an amusement park is tired. And so, you know, I kind of relate to that. He just he loved he loved the process as much as he could be disappointed if the outcome, you know, was underwhelming and wasn't well received and so forth.

It but and I relate to that too, sadly, uh, but, uh, you know, but he was, he was, he was really in it to just live the life and, you know, and walk that walk and, and, uh, whether on his own thinking and sketching or in the team environment, in the trenches. I'm curious about your personal experience with creature effects, like Willow and even Splash and the Grinch, and maybe what that experience was like for you and what you brought to thinking about the worlds that he was building too. Well, I've had some experience.

Nothing as ambitious as what they did on, you know, Labyrinth and Dark Crystal and later TV shows as well where the, you know, the creature shop, you know, really came into being and, and, and, you know, they did a lot of that at ILM, um, as well. And Phil Tippett and, you know, and Rick Baker and people that I've worked with, um, did some of that. And yes, we had, we had some of that in cocoon and definitely had a bit of it in, uh, in willow. Um, splash was just a tail, but it was, uh, uh, but we did have to make it come to life a little bit and puppeteer it a bit once in a while uh but um i very much recognize in the hinson kids and especially especially brian to some extent lisa people who were cheryl were really around the creature shop a lot um the uh

that kind of ilm vibe of blending technology with theatrics and you know myth building and and fantasy and you know doesn't surprise me at all when we found that footage of Jim really interested in digital and what it could be. If he had survived, he would have been on the absolute cutting edge of all of that with his characters and his sensibility. which seems like maybe not that interesting in many circumstances, but the introduction of Lou Grade as a character and having a kind of wild-eyed benefactor for someone with all of this creativity is so unique. I felt like I couldn't think of very many versions of that in contemporary Hollywood. What did you make of the way that...

Were you familiar with how all of that came to be? No. I mean, look, I didn't understand. i don't know were you familiar with that how all of that came to be no no i mean look i didn't understand i didn't know the struggle i didn't know that he had failed so many times to sell the muppets you know and that and that that whole idea of being this kind of worldwide sensation that was syndicated everywhere came about because he couldn't get a network deal. You know, and, you know, Lou Grade was this impresario who was also a good business person. By the way, it was around the same time that I did the movie Frost Nixon. It's about the same time that David Frost chose to get these rights

to Richard Nixon's interview, do the interview, and not sell it to a network or a news broadcast platform, but instead syndicate it in that way and basically create a fourth network. In a way, that's what the Muppets were doing as well. Both of these experiments were wildly successful. And there were a few others as well, like a miniseries and a few other things that achieved that and really paved the way for Fox to become a fourth network. Because and then after that, you know, TBS and other things to come along and show that you could you could kludge these uh stations together and be very powerful uh and uh so you know it was interesting that jim was willing to be cutting edge in that way but yeah blue gray i mean it was an outlier meets an outlier um and um and then in the in the

in that case the equation was wild success one other thing that i located in the story is that jim henson built this empire and then a lot of people came to depend on him and then you can feel a kind of anxiety about having to keep that going in a particular way. You've done a lot of work. I imagine if you wanted to retire, you could retire too.

And still you're working on Eden and you're working on this documentary and it seems like you have a lot of stuff going on. I mean, did you relate to that drive that Henson had? I totally related to that. I mean, there were a few things like that that I definitely connected with and was very sympathetic to, and it probably shows in the film. But if it is a way of life for you, and for Jim it was, it was an expression of his his creativity and when he was at home he was doing the same thing he was you know painting the walls and uh and and and uh

fireplace mantle and and and you know it with the with the look there's their pipes outside of Saturday Night Live that when they were when they were when Jim was just standing around waiting to perform, he was doodling and drawing on those pipes. They've preserved them now. But then it was just him not being able to help himself. So what I relate to is that the process of being creatively engaged, of trying to understand how a thing could be of use to people, entertain them, inform them, or both, it's fascinating.

And particularly if you're, you know, Jim was an introvert, Jane more so, but Jim was quiet. I met him once very briefly. I'm quiet. I'm introverted. This is an outlet for people like us, you know, like a call to action. And, uh, it, it sort of gets us out of the house in a, in a way that's, that's, uh, that's meaningful. And, um, you know, I love it. I'm still loving it and, and hope to just stay as active as I can with it. And it's great having Brian Grazer and Imagine

Entertainment. I mean, it creates this environment. And I think to some extent, Jim probably loved having a bunch of like-minded people that didn't need him to be active. I mean, it's kind of, you know, again, a reason to know, a reason to keep pushing. One other thing that I find interesting about his story is that if you look at those short films that you talked about earlier, he seems like a pretty experimental, almost transgressive kind of artist. And you could see a world in which he took a left turn and did something a little bit outside of the mainstream.

And yet he became kind of the ultimate mainstream artist in so many ways. What do you think like really triggered that? Well, he was an interesting guy in that he wanted a creative life, but he was practical. You know, he wasn't naturally entrepreneurial or kind of in it for the dough,

but he wanted a sustainable system, you know, with which he could, you know, he could, he could make a living. You'd be responsible and do the things that he really loved to do. And he discovered early on with the commercials that he could do that. But most interesting to me was that he wasn't even interested in puppets necessarily. He was interested in a new tech, a new medium, TV. And so, look, not unlike content creators today that take social media and all the platforms and just go out there and test themselves and find an audience and understand how to interface with them. That's what he and Jane were doing from the very beginning with these little short form

pieces on television and these wacky little six second commercials. You know, I mean, and they're hilarious. But what's interesting to me is they were also the building blocks. He was that 10,000 hours that he and Jane and Frank and others were putting in. So he did have that practical side. And look, once he discovered that he not only could make a living with the puppets but there was something fresh about his take on puppetry he could he could apply his kind of anarchistic anarchist if that's a word is is this kind of that sensibility, that satire to the puppets. And it was something special.

It was something that cut through. And so he wanted to do other things as well, and he did. But time and time again, he kept cutting through with the puppets. And at a certain point, of course, he recognized that that was sort of a foothold, you know, that he had. I wanted to ask you one thing about the intersection of the feature films that you're making and the docs. I feel like 13 Lives maybe didn't get the audience

that it deserved because it was a very weird time in our history, but it's such a good film. And I know like some great filmmakers have been talking about how much they like it. And it really felt really felt from my perspective like a lot of the doc work maybe informed how you made that movie i don't know if that is true or not but i was curious to hear you just talk about it well it definitely did and um and it um you know and it it and it has it has been a bit. But even editorially, you begin to realize there are other ways to sort of get something across, get an idea across to an audience. And so I approach post-production a little more creatively, kind of looking for other material and a way to put things together to make a point. It's a, that's a little less, uh, on the nose, but it definitely informed my, my approach to 13 lives.

I had, um, um, recently prior to 13 lives, I had done a film about the fires in paradise, California. It's called rebuilding paradise. And And it's the emotion that was observed by our cameras in that movie definitely informed my approach to the way the parents reacted in 13 Lives, the way the divers reacted,

kids themselves. And it was a little less theatrical. It was a little less the way you'd act it, the way you'd play it. And it was a little more what I was kind of observing, you know, through our lenses. And so, you know, I think without a doubt it's uh the the the two things inform one another and look i just find it fascinating i also love the people who make the documentary medium their full-time career their sensibility is great you know they're kind of like journalists they're explorers there are no frills they're they. They're in and out of pure passion. They can make a living, but it's not about that. It's not about back-end participations or big contracts. And yet it is about finding a great story and learning from it and sharing

what you learn. And I love that. Since Apollo 13, I've been drawn to stories based on real events. And so I find that my skill set fits pretty well with at least the documentaries that I've chosen to take on so far. Yeah. I hadn't really thought about it quite that way, but then you look back at your filmography and there are a lot of true stories, especially in the last 25 years. So I hope you keep making the docs though. They're really, they're fascinating. Thank you. I really enjoy it. That's good to hear. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen anything recently that you like? Oh man. It could be new or old it's a little it's a

little cliche but uh um um but well two things shogun is great it's a great show you know uh and uh and cheryl and i my wife are just are really have been riveted to uh shogun on on the plane i saw a documentary that was made in the 70s called Harlan County, USA. I've known about this documentary, you know, my pretty much my adult life. Never saw it. I've seen scenes, bits and pieces. It happened to be on my Delta flight. I watched the whole thing. It was absolutely riveting.

Barbara Koppel, one of the director, producers of it. Amazing. And and I just i just absolutely loved it i've been recommending it to uh everybody it's still 100 relevant to watch it today that film is like a perfect example of what you were describing about the lifelong documentarians who do that kind of work so i love that recommendation it's a great film ron thanks so much for doing the show. You bet. Pleasure. Good talking to you. Thank you to Ron Howard. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer,

Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to Corey McConnell. Thanks to all the listeners out there. What are we doing next week? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you tell me. New game. Yeah. New game. The Let's Start a Movie Studio game. Amanda will get more details about this shortly, maybe just before the rest of the world does. We'll see you soon.