The Big Picture - The Ridley Scott Hall of Fame. Plus: Errol Morris!

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

With Ridley Scott’s ‘Napoleon’ hitting theaters, Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to build the Ridley Hall of Fame, selecting his 10 films most worthy of preservation (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by filmmaker Errol Morris to talk about his new John le Carré documentary, ‘The Pigeon Tunnel,’ Morris’s interviewing style, how he chooses subjects, the overlap between documentary and drama filmmaking, and more (1:27:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Errol Morris Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Fennessy. I'm Amanda Davins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Ridley, Ridley Scott. Later in the show, I'll be joined by writer-director Errol Morris, the legendary documentarian. We discussed The Pigeon Tunnel, his new film about author John le Carre, which is now available on Apple TV+. I love talking with Errol. Always mischievous, always entertaining. I hope you'll stick around for our conversation.

But first, we're going to build a Hall of Fame shrine to Ridley Scott. Now, I want to say something very special here. When this episode airs, it will be on the birthday of Chris Ryan. Oh. And Chris Ryan. Oh. And Chris Ryan. Christopher.

Yeah. Who, frankly, has been my brother in Scott Brothers for a long time now. We have been celebrating the Scott Brothers since the day we met. And we love the films of Ridley and Tony. And of course Amanda I know you love them. Do you love the films of Tony?

Of course I do. You do? Okay. I think I drafted at least two Tony Scott films during the Denzel draft. Okay. So you're a Scott bro as well.

I also like trains. You do like trains. And you've passed that down to your son. Yeah as do other people in my life. And other people my son also loves Chris. You do like trains, yeah. And you've passed that down to your son. Yeah, as do other people in my life. And other people, my son also loves Chris. And he will surely love Ridley Scott and Tony Scott. And I will teach your son to love Lippins on her stallions.

Chris, happy birthday. Thank you, man. We would never do this without you. Are you coming back for Napoleon? Now I will, now that we've seen Napoleon. So we just returned from a screening. This was a cute day. It's Ridley Scott day for the three of us seen Napoleon. So we just returned from a screening of... This was a cute day. It's Ridley Scott day for the three of us.

Yes. So we went to the DGA. We saw a screening of his new film, which we will talk about at length when the film is released next week. It's a Thanksgiving release. But to get ready for that release, we're going to build this Hall of Fame.

Now, do you think we should include Napoleon as a possible entrant in this? As one of the 10 films to go in the Ridley Scott Hall of Fame? Yeah. Respectfully, no. But I was going to say, should we even consider it? Yeah, it's like, is it eligible? this as one of the 10 films to go in the Ridley Scott Hall of Fame respectfully no but I don't but I was gonna say it's not like even consider it yeah it's like is it eligible not oh sure yeah I think it's I think it should be that would be a good way to talk about it by not getting into

spoiler territory but I think that that sure it's eligible you just spoiled yeah we know your vote yeah no that's not what I said okay when you have a filmography like Ridley Scott, the barrier for entry is high. But Napoleon is short, so he wouldn't get in. You know. Napoleon can't go to Disney World, but he can conquer at Austerlitz. Yeah. He's actually medium.

I know. They didn't really bring it up very much. He's medium? Yeah. And like historically. Isn't he like 5'7"? Listen. 5'6"?

5'4"? You said that you didn't want to do this on this episode. And also you said that I don't know anything. But I did listen to half a podcast. I didn't say that. Series about Napoleon that was wonderful. Which one was it? Age of Napoleon.

Oh. That's the big one. Yeah. It's really good. As recommended by Bobby Wagner. Yes. And one of the things that I learned is that. Very good podcast.

It's an excellent podcast. He was not like. short as, you know, the legend and like Napoleon complex would lead you to believe. Sure. Age of Napoleon was hosted by Napoleon Bonaparte though. So some fussing of numbers, I think. I'd love to see Napoleon do ad reads. When I'm away in the Austerlitz,

I like to know that the palace is guarded By SimpliSafe And you can get SimpliSafe at SimpliSafe.com Slash Napoleon Even if I'm stuck In Russia Through the winter I might be getting packages for the holidays And it's nice to know that SimpliSafe

When Josephine and I are cuddled up together in front of the fireplace, what do we like to do? Watch Mubi.com where you can find new films. Okay, Napoleon's ad reads are wonderful,

almost as wonderful as Ridley. So Ridley is 86 years old, which is simply remarkable. The dark Brandon of filmmaking. He is unstoppable. Yeah. And every time he comes up in the polls, everyone says, yes, more Ridley, please. He's been, he's been working his tail off

in the last 15 years. It's really remarkable. You know, there's a wonderful profile of him in the New Yorker magazine by Michael Shulman that I highly recommend people check out. It talked a bit about his incredible longevity as an artist. Uh, what was the first Ridley Scott movie you saw, Chris? So I So I'm pretty sure it was Alien, just around the house on VHS, but I would probably venture a guess that Thelma and Louise was the first movie that I was aware of coming out as a Ridley Scott movie.

Amanda, can you recall? It was probably Thelma and Louise, though I probably didn't understand it as a Ridley Scott movie because it came out in 1991. I don't think I saw it then. But I think I saw Thelma and Louise before Alien and Blade Runner.

Okay. Just based on being me. I think it was Legend for me. Yeah. Which was on cable quite a bit. And Tim Curry as the giant demonic figure was very resonant

for like seven-year-old me. But then I think pretty shortly thereafter, Alien, Blade Runner, all of those classics came to the fore. I want to talk about what he is. I know, and it's hard because he's not... He's so different than the conversations we've had about Martin Scorsese because he has whole swaths of his career

where even though the films are fantastic, there's a certain authorial anonymity to the films. And then you look at his filmography and you're like, oh, yeah, he did that one. I like that one. But I don't think of it as like a grand artistic gesture by a world-renowned filmmaker. You know what I mean? It's hard to know what is the true character of, say, the Ridley protagonist or what is Ridley's world

where he feels most comfortable because he goes deep into the past. He goes into the future. He makes very small-scale intimate stories. He makes stories

with the widest and biggest canvas. He goes into space. I mean, he really, he has made virtually every kind of movie

that you could make in Hollywood in the last 40 years. So he's hard to pin down. I wrote down four descriptions that I think could fit him. So I'd like to know what you think. Are you going to read them to us? I'll read them to you. We should have like paddles or something where we can vote. I like that.

Similar to Napoleon calling for cavalry. All right, here's the first one. The ad man with a mastery of atmosphere and scale. Of course, Ridley Scott began his career as an advertising director. That's how he broke into the game and eventually got the gig to make The Duelist, his first film. A high art engineer leveraging taste. Ridley is a collector of fine art and studied as a fine artist. And, of course, has a painterly eye and is well known for his Ridley Gram Grams where he designs all of his films. A world-class filmmaker with middling taste.

Someone who, you know, can make some schlocky choices in his bag. Has made a couple of sequels. He's made a couple of mediocre genre movies. You know, kind of a populist in a weird way. Or finally, a soulless technician with little interest in interiority. Now, this is a very unkind descriptor, but it is what his critics often say about him, that he is a person who takes jobs and executes on jobs, but does not really feel the jobs. I thought the Shulman profile did an interesting job of

shading in a lot of material that I didn't really understand about his family life that helped me better understand what characters he's drawn to and stories he pursues. How do you guys see him? Like, do any of those make sense to you, those descriptors? Option A more than anything else. Admin. Yeah, but the sense of scale and design. I mean, you're right that he does a lot of different types of movies, which is part of the appeal of Ridley Scott. But like there are patterns, right?

You know, he either he does like going back in time. He likes, you know, a place where he can really production design it out to create a whole world. And he's very gifted at that. You know, he likes a battle scene. He likes dudes maybe not saying too much. The verb you're looking for is rocking. He likes when dudes rock. Yeah, that's sure.

There you go. I guess they do. When you say it, it doesn't really feel like they're rocking. But when Sir Ridley directs it. By the way, you just did not use his proper title. He's been a sir for like 20 years now. I'm an American, so I could really give a fuck about those. To me,

he is a filmmaker. Okay. But, there are, so when you say Ridley Scott movie, I mean, I guess I think,

you know, so clearly of Alien, Blade Runner, Thelma and Louise, Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven, which I remember being completely baffled by in college, but also, you know, sat through all of it. But so there is like specific visual imagery

that shows up in a way that is like almost a little like brand, you know, not branded, but I'm like, oh, I know who that is. So I guess it's option A. I think the lack of interiority is very rude. That comment. I know that you didn't write it. Merely communicating what I think his detractors have often said about him. But I think it sort of misunderstands like another of his gifts, which is they don't get overly. How do I say this without sounding really, like, crass? I do think that there's emotion in them,

but they move, and there isn't a lot of moaning and weeping and, you know, dudes talking. The dudes are rocking instead of talking, and there is just something big and epic and fast-moving about all of his movies, at least the cuts that are put into theaters. No shots,

which I really appreciate. And as part of like that, I don't know, big budget nineties appeal of his work. What do you think? I keep thinking of him more as a filmmaker than a storyteller. And in that possibly, I guess a master filmmaker,

at least in terms of marshalling the different departments that go into making a movie. He's worked with a lot of the same people over and over again, and he clearly has the secondhand language with them where he's able to communicate what he wants. A lot of his films are mostly pre-visualized, so when they get to the set, it's not exactly rocket science,

what he's looking for. He's really managed to meld some of the vfx and cgi of the last 20 years 15 years they've developed in in movie making and merge them with a kind of more like cecil b demille like we're gonna move a thousand people to the left and then a thousand people to the right and we're gonna create this spectacle but he's just a really complicated filmmaker to try and assign uh a unifying psychology to or uh a thesis statement like you know we just got done talking about fincher we've talked about scorsese we've talked about no and we talked about greta gerwig this year and for each of those people i feel like we're like this is what this person's

about this is what this person is interested in. Even Michael Mann, who will come up with Ferrari. It's like he is obsessed with obsession and he is obsessed with pursuit of greatness. And like their fetishes, their passions, their kinks, their vulnerabilities, all these things are on display in their movies. And you look at their films, you can see these arcs of like, I'm building towards this and now I'm coming down and you can't do that with him. I was looking at his filmography and I was like,

you could make an argument that the last four movies are a quadrology of European excess. I don't know really what that means. Like, but you, the last four movies he made are about rich people fucking up this planet somehow yeah like yeah and i don't know if that is like a conscious decision on his part i don't know if he's like this was the movie that was ready the script was ready i could go like you

know like arthur max had the sets built so we went or if there's something he's trying to say about like western civilization and we may not know that for another 10 or 20 years. I do. I just think the thing that differentiates him from our year of Masters, and that's really what this has been. A lot of our favorite directors have had movies, almost all of whom have made, if not their best work, work that feels resonant with the rest of their filmography and also feels definitional about them. And Ridley doesn't take screenwriting credits. He doesn't, he's never gotten a writing credit on a movie that he's directed, which is not true. I don't think of any of the movie, the filmmakers that you just listed.

I also think his movies are quite vulnerable to good or bad scripts. Absolutely. And that's the thing. And that is sort of why I say is it possible that he is a world-class filmmaker with middling taste? Because sometimes he gets his arms around something

that he gets really interested in and then the world sees it and they're like, this? You're Ridley Scott. We all enjoyed House of Gucci, I think for the kind of camp romp that it was.

But most of the world did not care for that movie. And they thought it was kind of a joke and bad. And so sometimes his radar is inconsistent. And that's not, which isn't to say that other filmmakers don't have inconsistent radar. These people are not bulletproof artistically. But I'll set the stage with this.

Like when Chris and I recorded that first ever podcast that was never released in, I want to say it was a 29 or 2010, 2010. It was for Robin Hood the Ridley Scott movie Robin Hood which is bad like it's there's some interesting

things in it but it's like it was a movie that no one needed that no one asked for conceived in a way that was I guess not reinvented

enough well I would also just because we just did Robin Hood Prince of Thieves on the rewatchables I was reading a lot about it, that Ridley Scott movie was initially supposed to

be called Nottingham and was supposed to be shot from the perspective of the sheriff. Right. And it was supposed to be a revisionist take on Robin Hood and over the course of a couple of years for whatever reasons, it shifted to a slightly more traditional, if Ridley Scott version of Robin Hood and turned into basically Gladiator in

England. and it has a lot of the sort of um wisps of what his last 2015 years have been which is like oh there's a director's cut of this it's really good or this screenplay wasn't quite ready or he really just made this because he didn't want someone else to make it or something like that. Like there's not this sort of intentionality sometimes that I think we ascribe to the best filmmakers in the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I don't think he's not one of the best filmmakers of the world. There's one other thing I've noticed with him, which is that he he's like Napoleon in many ways. Uh, but one of the ways he is like Napoleon is that his career is a series of forward attacks and then retreats. So if you look at year to year the choices that he makes, for example, he makes Black Hawk Down, one of the most harrowing war movies ever made.

And then he makes Matchstick Men, an eccentric comedy. And then he makes Kingdom of Heaven, a classical a classical historical epic war drama film and then he makes a good year a slide back to you know a french vineyard and then american gangster a very serious solemn crime drama about generational power and violence and then robin hood let's think about. Let's think about the stories that we tell each other. That didn't work. Okay, Prometheus,

something that is safe, that I know how to do, that is bold, but is riddly. Like he's constantly toggling in a way. Scorsese does this too. You can keep going.

Sure, but what he made after Prometheus. After Prometheus, obviously The Counselor, a tribute to his late brother and a movie that is in a completely different tone and vein.

A very funny movie beyond Prometheus. Then Exodus, Gods and Kings because, oh, the counselor, that was too much of a risk. Too loose. Too much like Tony. Then The Martian. Fun, funny, inspiring. That's called work-life balance, my man. You know?

It's all work. Sure, I know. But it's like, I do agree with you that there is not like the narrative here and also not the kind of self-mythologizing that Scorsese and Fincher and Sofia Coppola, you know, that all of these people are like, I'm building a career. I'm doing, you know, but there is something to be said for also just liking to work. I mean, this guy is, as you said, 86 years old. And I was just like, I don't know. I want to try this. I want to try that. Let's try another thing. I'm interested in this. I spent a little while doing this. Like, now I'm going to do that.

It's a different kind of career than we normally talk about here. And that normally makes you into a brand name as a director. But it seems perfectly reasonable to me to want to go spend, well, it always is reasonable to me to want to spend a year in Provence but especially after you know doing Kingdom of Heaven there's so much mud you know totally it's logical from a from a lifestyle perspective and a sort of like the human mind wanting to not be stuck in one place at any right I completely understand that I think it's fascinating I'm it not a criticism. It is also so interesting that as he entered his 80s and also his 80s coincided with

the pandemic, he made 8 movies in 10 years. Which I actually, do you want that for yourself? Like is there a part of you that's like I want to be doing the thing that I love at 84 in the mud? I don't know a ton of happy retired people.

Interesting. It is a good point. That's an American disease. I don't want to know you when you're retired. I'm going to be fucking rocking. I'm going to be watching Prometheus. You say that now. You talk about it all the time.

Yeah. And I just like- Because one day you're going to wake up and I'm going to be in Fiji and that's it. It's over. It's not going to be the case. You'll never see me again. You don't like the beach.

Yeah, but I'll live in a really cool glass cube in Fiji. Okay. See, this is what I'm saying. When you no longer have a reason to make a spreadsheet, you're just going to be making a spreadsheet being like, wake up. We got Alice's college applications. There's a lot of work for me to do you know we really got to make sure everything's just working properly yeah you want to be working

when you're 78 years old i don't want to be working now here i am wow but you know you got a mortgage man i know listen i'm doing it i show every day. It's not that I'm not. It's just you ask me. But Ridley has a zest for it, is the sense that I get. Which is amazing. I really admire people who are just like, I like what I'm doing. And there's also, there doesn't feel like a ton of indecision or waiting or hemming and hawing. It's just like, I'm going to go do this thing. And then I'm going to try doing another thing.

And then I'm going to get this eight movies done, like five during the pandemic, whatever. I'm not to try doing another thing. And then I, you know, I'm going to get this eight movies done like five during the pandemic, whatever, just that I'm not a doer. Yep. I really admire people who are, who just get shit done. I wonder if this burst of prolific energy into his very late golden years is in, in some ways an indirect statement in the same way,

like Scorsese made to Zach, where it's just like I'm getting older there's not enough time to tell the stories I want to tell yeah you know like Kurosawa I've now realized like all the great glory of cinema and I wish it was but are those stories really the last duel no I don't think so but maybe his way of processing that is just to work I think you need to tone it down like a little bit on House of Gucci. It's also like, I take it personally when you're like, House of Gucci is evidence of bad taste.

I mean, it was obviously campy, but if it interested him, it also interested me, you know. There's sure a sign of good taste. Says the man in the quarter zip. I've never worn a quarter zip she meant emotionally that's true that is fair

we're going to make the hall of fame okay what do you think? I would just I was just going to my prompt my one prompt is is there an era

that you like the most because obviously Sean you reject working senior citizens that's not true I think everybody should be turned into Soylent Green at the age of 65 you reject working senior citizens. That's not true. You think everybody should be turned into Soylent Green at the age of 65. Who are you voting for?

Nikki Haley? Me? Yeah, what's your move here? I want to bring back Napoleon. You want fresh legs in there. I want an emperor. Yeah. I'll bet you do.

You want to talk about who you're voting for? Should we reject these octogenarians, get them the fuck out of Washington? I'm voting for Josh Shapiro. That's my, that's my, that's my governor. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing.

This is why you're not third chair on JMO. This is because you can't rise to that question. As soon as you asked who I'm voting for, I thought about how it, two weeks ago, I guess, on the calendar, it said election day. And so for like 20 minutes, speaking of geriatrics, I became very nervous that I'd missed an election. And I was just sitting there Googling like Los Angeles County polling places being like, where can I sign up to vote? And there was nothing to vote for. So I didn't get to vote. It's an off year.

Yeah. They don't make that clear on the calendars, you know? Yeah, it should say off year. But I was like, did I not get invited? You know, like deep FOMO based on some like Google thing. Did not get invited. Have I been rejected? I'll be sure to remind you when it's Biden-Trump to vote.

I promise I will. Oh, okay. I don't have a favorite era because I feel like every time he's like, I really got ahead of steam going. He's like, how about 1492, Conquest of Paradise? You like every time he's like I really got ahead of steam going he's like how about 1492 Conquest of Paradise you know

so he's just unpredictable in that way I like we talked about this I think with Spielberg about whether or not he was the only filmmaker who had a masterpiece

in every decade did I say that? I feel like some thought like that from the 1970s on I don't know if Ridley's quite there but he's pretty close and that went into my thinking

around this project too, because there are six or seven movies that are no doubters. And then the last three is real personal preference. The first half of this will be Chalk. And the second half will be Bloodsport. Yeah. You have a favorite era? I mean, either the

first era or probably the 2000s. 2000s. Right? Starting with Gladiator through, I guess, I mean,

give or take a couple, The Counselor. Like, that's a pretty good run. Yes. Gladiator through... A couple of stinkers in there, though.

Listen, you know, you make these exercises just to concern our greatest living artist. I have nothing against Body of Lies. A Good Year is not very good

and Robin Hood is bad. I mean, those are like really not very good movies. So, it's okay to say that. Oscar Isaac is good in Robin Hood. Sure. He's the prince, right?

He's Prince John. He's good. Kate B is pretty good in it. I have no recollection of her performance. Who is she? Maid Marian? Yeah.

Oh, good for her. Danny have no recollection of her performance. Who is she? Maid Marian? Yeah. Oh, good for her. Danny Houston is King Richard, I think. How does it stack up to the Antoine Fuqua King Arthur movie? I don't know if I saw that one. Is that the one with Taron Egerton? Nope. That's a Robin Hood movie directed by Guy Ritchie. Oh, King Arthur.

No. King Arthur is Clive Owen. That shit was hard. That's what I'm talking about. Jira Knightley is like a Celtic fairy. Yeah. So this is one you're in on? That movie's hilarious.

King Arthur? Okay, all right. This is when we build the Antoine Fugler. That would be a great episode. When Hannibal comes out? Yeah. Yeah, no.

Equalizer 3, that's going in. That was a fucking banger. Sean on one week will be like, the pod's over in 18 months. And then the next week he'll be like, I can't wait to build the Antoine Pucqua Hall of Fame. It's going to be a great episode. Where he's just like,

I have to keep people on their toes about ending the pod. Well, we've done Halls of Fame for so many of these great filmmakers. Or we're about to. Are you ready? Yeah. But there's a whole new generation coming up for us to build Halls of Fame. Who do we're about to are you ready yeah but there's a whole new generation

coming up for us to build halls of fame who you got your money on right now Russo's you know they just keep building

they just keep building extensions should we do a gray man watch along do you think gray man watch along yeah sure okay

yeah people would be able to participate will you guys take edibles with me for the watch along absolutely that's like a charity event we should do we should get 8,000 people in a room Yeah, people would be able to participate. Will you guys take edibles with me for the watch along? Absolutely. That's like a charity event we should do.

We should get 8,000 people in a room. We all drop an edible and we watch The Gray Man together. And we just let CR talk the whole time. But you think you're talking. Yeah, that's right. My mic is off. Okay, let's begin. So if you've never listened to a Hall of Fame episode before, we choose 10 films from a filmmaker's filmography

and enshrine it. As we go through the process, we will identify reds, which are automatically out, yellows, which are maybes, and greens, which are in. So, we started in 1977 with The Duelists. Ridley Scott was 40 years old when he made this movie. Isn't that crazy? There's still hope for you.

What does that mean? For me to make a film like The Duelists? But there's still hope for you. What does that mean? For me to make a film like The Duelists? I guess not for you, but there's still time for me. Well, just barely. Just hold on tight to these nine months, my friend. Okay. And we're going to welcome you into your 40s with real affection. Oh, yeah.

And sensitivity. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations on your birthday episode, which will be us making fun of you for three hours. Yeah, with you showing you a picture of the guy in Last Crusade turning into dust. Anybody revisit the Duelists?

I did, actually. So it's very relevant to Napoleon, obviously, because it's about two men who go on this kind of feud over a period of time during the Napoleonic Wars. What'd you think

seeing it again? Listen, I hadn't seen it in a while. I turned it on. I wouldn't say that it was like the most focused experience. So, you know, in that case... Your own experience, not Ridley's. Yeah, my own experience, which means I had the experience that a lot of people do

when watching movies from the 70s of being like, wow, this is taking its time. It is a leisurely film exactly but you know still that immediate like sense of place in the past like an entire like richly developed world and also like dudes fighting in in frankly like very funny smaller scale whale ways since it's a duel or a series of duels. For many years. Yeah, but just like a lot of epées. Do you use an epée in a duel, or is that just fencing? I do believe there are the sort of like

the needle-style swords used in that film. Yeah, okay. You've seen the duels. Yep, it's okay. It's good. I mean, it's a cool artifact, but I mean, when you've got a filmography like this it's like this is probably red yeah this is a fascinating one because he'd been waiting all this time he'd made all these commercials he really

became like one of the rock star ad filmmakers ad directors in london at a time when he was kind of like leveraging swinging 60s london in the late 60s and did 10 years basically of this work. And when he made this movie, it arrived, I think, in the same month as Star Wars. And he saw it and he was like, oh, fuck. What I thought I was supposed to be doing, I missed. I missed out on this whole generation. But a real problem solver because look what he does next.

And that is what happened is he looked at Star Wars and he said, I need to do my version of that but in a completely different way. And then, of course, in a magical way, he makes Alien in 1980. 79? 79.

79. Which is one of the best movies ever made. The greenest green. It is a green film. I don't know, we did an Alien rewatchables earlier this year,

very fun episode. One of the most chronicled movies, I would say. One of the most chronicled movies i would say there is the most influential yes um and he did something i think it's fair to say that had never been done and so like his legacy was kind of confirmed after this movie like he basically reinvented science fiction yeah filmmaking and the two films he makes in the three years here are two where you're just like well this is one of the most exceptional visionary talents to come along since Kubrick.

Yeah. And Blade Runner, the movie that came immediately after this, which will also just be green, was also a movie that wasn't necessarily supposed to happen

because he was preparing to make Dune. And so as he waited, he thought about this Philip K. Dick story that he had read many years ago and thought he always thought it would make an interesting idea for a movie. And then eventually Hampton Francher came on, they sort of started getting written.

But those two movies, which are kind of cold and metallic and covered in fog and mist and have a kind of doom-like air, that was just not where sci-fi was in the 70s. Whether it was like The Omega Man or Star Wars. Whether it was grandeur or like grounded kind of cheesy pop. They were mythological. Yeah. And these were very grounded and real. And. Yeah.

I also just for Blade Runner I think it's worth noting. That something that will come up a couple of times over the course of this conversation. And may come up during a conversation in the future about Napoleon. Is the unfinished or ever-evolving nature of some of these films in their post-release state. So Blade Runner has gone through many iterations with and without the voiceover, the director's cut, the ultimate cut, the number one boy cut, whatever it is. And several of his films, several of his most beloved movies have a kind of feeling

that they're like, the version that we got in the theaters was just the version that was ready at that moment and that he kept messing with it or tinkering with it after the fact,

which I think is a really interesting quality to his filmography. You think he's the ultimate tinkerer? He's the person I think was most associated, right? He's the most vocal about it also. And at this point, you kind of expect. And I do believe

he announced that there's a four-hour cut of Napoleon somewhere with a lot more Josephine. I think it's going to be on Apple. Didn't you say? That was what he announced. I don't know if that will actually come to pass. Tim Cook. Yeah. It's remarkable that it happened in the first place. What if they preloaded all the iPhone titanium with the director's cut of Napoleon? Well, I would pray that Ridley Scott not become the next U2

in the cultural memory of people who don't know why Ridley Scott matters. Are they showing movies in the sphere yet? Yeah, Darren Aronofsky directed a film that is playing there right now. Oh, God, I forgot about that. Yeah. And did you see also that Darren Aronofsky

was making a film of Elon Musk? I sure did. Have you heard of Elon Musk? Yeah. What do you make ofofsky when making a film of Elon Musk? I sure did. Have you heard of Elon Musk? Yeah. What do you make of his work? Hall of Fame, Elon Musk? I don't have to share that here because I made a whole season of television on Apple called The Morning Show about it. So I'll just refer you there.

You made The Morning Show? Yeah, it was me. I'm the writer behind that. What do you make of X? X.com? Yeah. I don't really use it as much as I used Twitter. I was a big bird guy, you know?

Yeah. What if I just went the other way and I was like, I'm... What do you mean, what if? I set you up for that one. Blade Runner has been tinkered with. You know, famously, he showed the movie to a test audience and they were like, absolutely not. And so he reshot a new ending, a happier ending in which Harrison Ford's

character got to go off and have love with Sean Young's character. And then rejiggered that again. There's the whole unicorn business. Is he a replicant?

Replicant, yeah. All the versions are good. It's the rare case. Yeah, I kind of like the voiceover. It's unusual in that way because we decide that we're like,

oh, well, this is the one you have to see. And I do think that his ultimate one that he pushes now is the one you have to see. But they're all interesting. You don't think so? No, I think they are. The other way in which Blade Runner is visionary is that this anticipates, you know,

I'm on Reddit and like, is he the replicant? And then I saw XYZ and we got to have all of the somethings, which like... Are you on Reddit? Yeah, I am actually. You know, reddit's pretty good okay so you are on reddit I mean I don't post what's your username I don't have one but I just google something reddit and then I can learn whether like if you need like a dupe of an expensive skincare product are you exfoliating it I exfoliate every night oh that's right you exfoliate every night. Oh, that's right. You exfoliate every night. Are you exfoliating every night? I don't know. Okay. I put on a foaming cleanser and then a toner

and then moisturizing cream. Okay. Your toner might actually be doing some exfoliating, some chemical exfoliating. Anyway. Fitting chit chat on an episode of a world-class ad, man. But you know what I mean? Like even there are multiple versions and I'm not quite done with this and like he did you know anticipates he did

much of the way that we watch movies now yeah I don't think his director's cuts were the first director's cuts but they are the the ur director's cuts in some ways

1985 Legend he took three years he found this young young exciting prospect named Tom Cruise and he said, I want to make him

in the land of nymphs. And I'm going to tell a mythological tale about his, his heroism. This movie is not that good. It's bad.

It's pretty bad. It's pretty, pretty, pretty, it's actually very similar to Robin Hood where an hour in, you're like,

okay, wrapping this up like where are we going from here and then there's a whole another hour never work together again they didn't

well really this guy very strong headed yeah I mean and unsparing Russell Crowe repeat business yes

Russell Crowe repeat business many times Denzel repeat business right yes but yeah not a lot of like oh I work with this guy

like 19 times no no uh including 1989s no excuse me 1987 someone to watch over me which is his foray into american noir detective cop movie starring tom berenger and mimi rogers um fond of her how could she and tom cruise they were married at this time at this time I believe so yeah okay this is probably

right at the end okay it's right Days of Thunder era for Tom and that's when Nicole kind of rises

so this is the movie that on paper in 2009 when I was doing my Ridley research I was like this is probably

the hidden gem this is the one I've never seen I'm gonna check it out I'm gonna be like let's reclaim someone to watch over me. But it's not. It's not terribly strong.

It's about a cop trying to protect a woman who may or may not be attacked by, a very successful woman who may or may not be attacked by an assailant. And it looks good. Yeah, I always think of this as like batched together with like Jagged Edge and like a bunch of

those sort of romantic thrillers of the time yeah though please put some respect on Jagged Edge I like Jagged Edge yeah

Jagged Edge is Jeff Bridges right? exactly yeah and Glenn Close yeah and an incredible house somewhere on the California coast San Francisco

because he's like the publisher of The Chronicle I think yeah but then like it's like towards Carmel is like the you know the ranch anyway have I told you guys the class that I watched yeah but then like they it's like towards Carmel is like the you know the ranch anyway have I told you guys the class that I watched the film Jagged Edge in no have we discussed this on the podcast I like Jagged Edge quite a bit too it was shown to me

in student court which was the class I took in 11th grade and did you ace that in which we learned about the law certainly did but my teacher I think was like on the back nine of his career and so I would say every third day he was like it's time time to watch this movie. Jagged Edge has like a sex scene in it and lots of murder. I had a history teacher who was definitely like had some other things

going on in his life and would just show Spartacus three times a year no matter what part of history we were doing. So we would be doing like American Revolution

and it would just be like, and Spartacus, kind of a revolution. So see you Wednesday. Public school teacher great gig. Really a great gig. This is private. That's rough.

That's actually rough. I'd like to go back to student court for a second. Yeah, sure. So would I. Did you form a court as well?

Was it like mock UN? It was more of a tribunal. Yeah. We hanged our fellow students. You're a room speaker. We did have mock trials. We learned a lot about the law. What roles did you play?

You can only imagine what I played. I was chief prosecutor. Thank you very much. Also, we learned a lot about the law. You're like a 14 year old pubescent boy I've said this before I mean obviously when I was a kid I was either I either wanted to be involved in music or movies

or I wanted to be a lawyer because I was just arguing with everybody all the time and look at me now I got both what a dream so

we were talking about Jagged Edge but that's not what this is about Black Rain comes in 1989 which is a movie about two NYPD cops trying to take down the Yakuza. Yeah. Honestly, like a pretty good cable movie. An incredible poster of Michael Douglas in like a floor-length black leather coat.

Yeah. Arms crossed. Big badge on his leather jacket. An amazing kill in this film. I don't recall. I won't spoil it for anybody who might want to dial up Black Rain but you could say

after Legend someone to watch over me in Black Rain that this guy is not a not a very important filmmaker. No.

He hit a real lull in the mid to late 80s after like we said making two movies that will live forever and I think a lot of people wrote him off.

Like he was really considered not one of the great filmmakers. And in 1991, he gets a script by Callie Curry, a film about two women on the run, and he's just going to produce the movie. And then by happenstance, a couple directors come in, they go out, he says, fuck it, I'll make it. I think Susan Sarandon was one of the people who said, you should just make this.

And so he did, and it's Thelma and Louise, which is one of the best movies of the 90s. It's a green. Auto green. He has four or five of these where it's almost like he's, just the way you described, it's almost like he weirdly wanders out of a crowd and is like,

I'll do it. And you're like, did you have The Martian in your back pocket this whole time? Right. Did you have Phil and Louise this whole decade?

I often think about the movies that he didn't make that could have been all-time classics. I don't think about that with other directors. I'm not like, oh, if only we didn't have Seven,

but we got this other Fincher movie. But you know that he's capable of doing something that you never would have expected he could do, which is an unusual skill that he has. I never would have guessed The Martian was possible, and I never would have guessed Thelma and Louise is possible, especially in 1991. I think that's part of the reason why, obviously, the script is incredible. Susan Sarandon and Gina Davis, fantastic in the movie. Introduction of Brad Pitt.

There are all these things going for it. Harvey Keitel really giving it his all, you know, as the cop chasing them. Such a fun, smart movie about the end of an era, the beginning of a new era, etc. But Ridley Scott? Like, it's so weird that he's the one who made it. Yeah. I mean, it does remind me that, like, sometimes it's not luck necessarily, but, like, a lot of pieces of a movie have to come together just right.

And it can be that the casting is wrong or a location falls through. If you don't get the ending of Thelma and Louise just right, that's a very different movie. And obviously, it's one of the most iconic endings of a movie ever. So someone who works this much and tries a lot of things I think sometimes like things just like don't always pan out like when you put up numbers like you know like actual that many movies I don't know it's to me it's less like why don't you work at this level all the time and more like oh this worked out you know it's magic like, why don't you work at this level all the time? And more like, oh, this worked out. You know, it's magic. And it's not quite magic, but things did come together.

I would just say for Thelma, which I rewatched for this pod, he might be one of my favorite, I don't know, photographers or documenters and movie stars. And he is, you know, sometimes with these, it's like, you know, the names stick with you.

Thelma Louise, Ripley, Deckard, whatever, but like maybe the characters don't. But I always remember how they looked. And I feel like he is so good at being like, yeah, put a neckerchief on

and let's get you real tan but a little bit dusty. And here are the sunglasses you should wear and you look iconic. You know, but a little bit dusty. And here are the sunglasses you should wear and you look iconic. You know, he's got a touch with that stuff that I think is probably getting lost a little bit. He, as you said before,

he sees everything in his head and most of his movies are sketched out. And part of the appeal of Thelma and Louise, part of like his strategy for that movie, his vision for that movie, is I'm going to make a John Ford movie but with two women

who are trying to be free. And that's why he shoots it basically in Monument Valley like across the American Southwest and tries to put on screen something that we've seen over and over and over again in American movies

but with a completely modern context. And it really works. I mean, it's a Billy the Kid movie but with these two women. And that's like a thrilling reinvention that he's capable of

that obviously is inherent in the story too that was written in the screenplay but it's a really fun movie and so it's really weird that a year later he's like,

now I'm back and what I'd like to do is on the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus discovering America make a movie about Christopher Columbus starring Gerard Depardieu.

This might be his worst movie. The competing Columbus movie. That's right. In the mix. That's right. I can't remember who made it and who is in the other Columbus movie, but there is another one right around here. I don't know. It would be great if it was Chris Columbus who made the Christopher Columbus movie.

Again, I rewatched this movie when we were preparing for House of Gucci. It's terrible. It's terrible. It's just so, and that is something that happens to some of these Scott movies is they become these really stolid kind of bland, to quote you, like great man movies at times. Of course. He gets a little bit caught up in that. And this was happening at a time when I think that the cultural discussion of Christopher Columbus's role in the forging of the American story was becoming more nuanced, I would say. It's not quite where it wasn't quite where it is now.

But the idea of celebrating him in this quite this or mythologizing him in quite this way, I think, was even a little controversial then. And he kind of forged ahead and made a pretty mediocre movie. So to me, it's red. Yeah, obviously. We don't have any yellows. We're about to. See, would you like to make your bid for 1996's White Squall? White Squall

is an incredible coming-of-age movie. And it's really underrated. If you have not seen White Squall, it's an incredibly entertaining movie. It's Jeff Bridges. Stars as running a basically juvenile detention reform school on a yacht that's sailing around, I think, maybe in Australia, but in the South Pacific somewhere.

Scott Wolfe, Balthazar Getty, a bunch of kids are on the boat. Mostly rich kids who have been sent there by their parents to become men. And they hit a storm. And a lot of it is about like what happens after that storm and their relationship to Jeff Bridges's you know teacher character and it's awesome it looks great love boats yeah in films did you ever do any of those like outward bound I did uh canoeing and rafting as a as a pre I would say, or a teen. Yeah,

they were formative. Like, how long were you out there? Seven days. How many other guys? Or gals? It was only men. How'd you keep each other warm?

It was the summer on the Delaware River, brother. We didn't have to. We just warmed ourselves by the great campfires that we built uh and i don't know why is that a metaphor i don't know it's not but they were formative and i i took a lot from this film i saw myself in it i'll give you a yellow on white squirrel i was just counting

down through i i don't we can do a yellow i don't think it's going to become a green but you like white squirrel all of those guys that you listed, especially Scott Wolfe, were very important to me in the 90s. So there's that. Scott Wolfe, Jeremy Sisto, Ryan Felipe, Eric Michael Cole, Balthazar Getty, Ethan Embry.

Yeah. And then Jeff Bridges. I can't remember. This film cost $38 million and earned $10 million at the box office. What happened? yeah and then Jeff Bridges I can't remember this film cost 38 million dollars and earned 10 million dollars at the box office what happened

this release you know one hot album every 10 year average you know like this really tough tough stuff here

then a year later he makes a movie that when I was 15 was covered in the entertainment press as though it were

Casablanca or Spartacus. Yeah, I think this was the last temptation of Christ meets Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Yes. So I just feel like I was, and maybe you are as well, Sean,

like three years too late to Demi Moore, you know? I wasn't as a fan of the film striptease. Well, sure. I was right there. But the way I have seen the films ofptease. Well, sure, but... I was right there. But the way I have seen the films of Demi Moore... Her megastardom.

Her megastardom. And like the way that Bill talks about Demi Moore, she was like, she was it. You know, she was like the Julia Roberts of the 80s. And I'm just like, well, it's just like G.I. Jane. You know what I'm saying? Like I... So I think that the coverage had to do with the fact that...

It informed us. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I think she obviously was married to an incredibly famous person as well. They had, you know, she had that iconic Vanity Fair cover when she was pregnant. She, I think, pursued and developed her stardom very smartly. And she made movies like Indies and Proposal. And she was often kind of a...

She was kind of a provocateur in a way, and maybe not given the right kind of credit that she deserved for that. The striptease G.I. Jane duopoly really fed into that. And I think they smartly leaned into it, even though the movie, I think, was ultimately a disappointment. I went back and watched it a few years ago, and it was actually pretty interesting. And it feels like it's setting the table a little bit for some movies that he'll do in the future. Really good Viggo Mortensen performance in G.I. Jane

as well. It feels a little bit, it feels like he kind of figures something out about his storytelling style in this movie, the way that he shoots movies. It feels like

he's like tamping down his attempts at grandeur a little bit in an effort to do a little bit more like focused character work. So, I don't think the movie is very good and I don't think it's like a green, but I do

see it as a really pivotal thing. And we can't be handing out spots though for like pivotal narrative moments that gets us into trouble. Well, I mean, we're going to be fighting, I think at the end of this regardless, but I'm not, I'm certainly, I'm not advocating for a yellow. I just think it's an interesting movie in his filmography. As opposed to 1492, which I can junk and I don't care about. Yeah, exactly.

So we'll make G.I. Gene red. And then we enter the 2000s. Yeah. Which is a bit of a gauntlet here. And 2000 is Gladiator. And this is where he gets, like, anointed. Right. So he brings back the historical epic.

I think knighted is what you mean, but... What year did he actually get? I think like 2003. Oh, pretty good. This movie was a box office sensation. It won Best Picture. It branded Russell Crowe as a megastar in Hollywood. It's a movie that to this day kicks ass.

Just incredibly watchable, fun, entertaining movie. Essential modern Oscar movie movie would you say very much at that time too I think represented like what they wanted you know what they wanted

Hollywood to be it felt like a throwback to your Spartacuses and his first collaboration with Joaquin Phoenix that's right that's right

he plays Commodus kind of Commodus and Napoleon they could be friends. They have some things in common. Yes. I guess that performance does too. Yep.

Absolutely. Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Hannibal is an auto green. Excuse me. Gladiator is an auto green. Right? Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. No question about it. Actually holds up. Is it number three in the surefire? Is it the third film mentioned in Ridley Scott's obituary? I think it's up there because of the Oscars and because of the box office success. I wouldn't necessarily put it as my number three film. I mean, it's either Gladiator or Thelma and Louise.

I was wondering about that. Which of those two? What comes first? I guess it doesn't matter. 2001's Hannibal. What a grotesque movie. Really gross. I didn't doesn't matter. 2001's Hannibal. What a grotesque movie. Really gross. Yeah.

I didn't know he had this in him. Eating brains from a living soul at the dinner table in the opening sequence. And also just like why you make this, man? Did you,

I mean, was there something about, and this is also this weird run of the Thomas Harris intellectual property where in some movies Hannibal Lecter is allowed to appear but he can't appear in others and it's just very strange. of the Thomas Harris intellectual property where in some movies, Hannibal Lecter is allowed to appear,

but he can't appear in others. And it's just very strange. Very strange, but it was a big hit. It did very well. And so he finds himself like really at the center of Hollywood and he's made this big sequel. That same year, I think Hannibal is, I think Hannibal's a red.

Yeah. Even though there's things about it that I think are pretty entertaining. But no. I mean, it's not a yellow for me. Is Ridley going to break the record for fewest yellows in Hall of Fame history? We've got a few coming up.

We've got some, I think, personal preferences coming up. I will say that Gary Oldman in this movie should get a green. A lot of prosthetics. Yeah. I don't think we're giving out individuated greens.

That would be hard to keep track of. 2001 also features Black Hawk Down. I'm looking at Chris. Yeah. I mean, it's a green. I was assuming it was a green. Completely. And this may be very difficult to do,

but removing all of its historical accuracy or whatever, it is such a breathtaking piece of filmmaking. And for what it's worth, is essentially the graduating class of all movie stars for the next 22 years. Fantastic movie. This hasn't been on the rewatchables. It hasn't.

It's a pretty grim film. And there aren't a lot of like, it's like the scenes, it's one scene of these guys. That's true. Once they get dropped off in Mogadishu, they essentially fight their way out. It's not a lot of like chapters. I mean, I went to see this for Josh Hartnett, you know, because this is post-Virgin Suicide.

Did he survive? Did he get his head blown off? I don't remember. He lives. He lives. Yeah, but I mean, it's like, you know, you go to see a movie for a teen heartthrob and then you watch Black Hawk Down instead. It was not like the close-ups that I was hoping for. But I mean, it's an amazing movie.

Tom Hardy was 15th build in this film. Yeah. Pretty deep bench. Really, really great film. Okay. Most of the people in this movie are British, which annoys me. Does it? A little bit.

You are of British descent. I know, but I don't think that they necessarily need to play like Army Rangers. Like there's not enough American actors. I've very rarely

heard a take like that from you. Just curious. Sometimes they just annoy, like I was just watching this new show. You sound like Carrie Lake right now.

A Murder at the End of the World, which is on FX. What's that about? Emma Corrin plays a modern day Sherlock Holmes of sorts, a Reddit sleuth.

Okay. Who, it's basically like this two stories. One is about her relationship with a, like a Banksy-style artist. Okay. Who she meets on these forums. And they're supposed to be these two, like, Midwestern Americans.

Is it our housewares or whatever Amanda was talking? Our skincare? Is that what they mean? Oh. And they're like, but I'm just like Emma, Emma Corrin's American accent kind of sounds like she's Jenny Slate. Like, yeah. And it's just like, I'm just like, there's not an American woman in this

world who could have done this. There are if I'm what was the example that I got really? Oh, when I'm Saoirse Ronan and Paul Mescal were in foe. Yeah. And it's just like, and doing American like Midwestern accents. It's like, it's already, you know, dystopian or whatever. Just let them be Irish.

Like, it's fine. I'm really more in the Scarlett Johansson. Like if I want to play a pickle, I should be allowed to play a pickle school. That's good. Of imaginary thinking. You know, what is the point of these games? It should be a fun election year for you.

Speaking of actorly transformations, 2003 Matchstick Man. Obviously, a personal favorite of mine. I don't really know that I have much of a ground to make a push

for it, though. Very entertaining movie. I think a well-liked movie. This seems like a great yellow. Yeah? You think so? Yeah.

Because we all revisited it, I think, for top fives. I didn't want to overstep here. No, no, no. But I revisited it for the last Ridley Scott Packets and was like, oh, this is really good. It is very good. And enjoyable and a tag. And one of the better scripts he directed. It is.

And it was that thing, the way you were describing his movies, where you're just kind of like, oh, the pace and they're moving and they're going. When he decides to make a two-hour movie he's awesome at that his three hour movies can be a little turgid um okay i'm good with yellow for match like that even if it doesn't survive now should we delineate kingdom of heaven and kingdom of heaven the director's cut i thought we were going to i would hope so so how would you describe it uh it's it's almost a completely different movie even though the bones of the movie are in the theatrical release i just think that a lot of the people's

and if you whatever problems you have with kingdom of heaven are likely if not alleviated soothed by the director's cut and if you are up for a lawrence of arabia level, that's what this is. And it does a lot more to explain who the main character that Orlando Bloom plays is and where he comes from and what's driving him. And it does a much better job of explaining the politics and the state of play

in Jerusalem where they're all kind of gathering these armies. And it's an absolutely glorious piece of movie making. I mean, like the battles in the desert are stunning. Without ruining Napoleon, do you think Napoleon has a chance to have a similar legend as Kingdom of Heaven

because we know about that four hour cut? I mean, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, it's really weird because there's not a lot of filmmakers that we've gone through this whole series of conversations about the length of Killers of the Flower Moon, right? Which, you know, in general, I think is a bit silly. But there are not a lot of filmmakers

from whom you'd want to see a four-hour movie. But Ridley Scott is now building this mythology as like a guy who makes incredibly long works and the longer versions are better and that's unusual i don't i can't think of too many other filmmakers who've been able to achieve that i like kingdom of heaven i i don't have the same like it doesn't rise to the level for me as it does for you but i i'm i'm willing to go with it for the original of course no the original was sort of like it wasn't quite a flop, but it was not a hit. It was very confusing.

I'm also reflecting now on how many Ridley Scott movies I just went to see to see a teen heartthrob, you know? Like in this case, Orlando Bloom. But, you know, that was in college

and I went to see the theater version and I was just like, I don't know what's happening. That would be funny if you were like, heartthrob like David Thewlis. Jeremy Irons.

Hey. Jeremy Irons is great. Excuse me. Is he a heartthrob in this film?less. Jeremy Irons. Hey. Jeremy Irons is great. Excuse me. Is he a heartthrob in this film? Well not in this film but just in general. We don't need to be

smirched Jeremy Irons. I'm not. I'm not. I love him. Unless he plays an American. Director's cut. Chris is in here just

you know absolutely trying to deport him. I thought he was good in Margin Call precisely because it was like almost impossible to really determine. He was he was good in Margin Call precisely because it was like almost impossible to really determine. He was just rich.

Yeah. Yeah. He's so good in Margin Call. Why isn't it green? I haven't done anything. I just assumed it was green. Chris is here. We can't make Chris

devote a whole day to the big picture. Yes, we can. Of course we can. I love devoting the whole days to the big picture. Do you?

We have five greens to this point. And we have... Make it yellow. I want to see what happens for the rest of this decade. Okay. Okay.

2006, a good year. I like that he tried. That's where I am with most Ridley Scott things and especially this one which is not a good movie. But... If there was a movie

made in a lab for Amanda, it would have been this. I know. But it just seems like a great way to spend some time, you know? He acquired a vineyard and fell in love with that vineyard and then made this movie just a mile down the road because he was so in love with this part of the world.

And the movie is basically about that. You asked what I hope to be doing in 86, and it's that. He's a fucking rich guy, you know, like in a funny way. He was like, this is my movie about how it's cool to have a vineyard. Yes. Yeah. Kind of amazing. Not a bad Russell Crowe performance.

Yeah, it's different. It's nice to get like a little bit more of like a romantic lead from him. Yeah. It is red. 2007 American Gangster. This is a really tricky one. We were just discussing this movie at length on the Denzel Washington movie draft. And I think there's like

a lot of appreciation for it. I think I took it and then met some resistance, didn't it? From him. Because he just had to re-litigate his 2007 feelings. What were they? You were just like,

well, I was promised the Godfather. You know? And it's not the Godfather. And so, and I was young and I had feelings. Stefan Anderson, who's a producer here at The Ringer, great guy, posited that it is a top five Jay-Z album, American Gangster, which I thought, even if I don't agree with the take, just a tremendous take. Yeah. What do you think? I don't think that that's the case.

Okay. Yeah. But I respectfully. I'm more of a Kingdom Come guy, you know? No,'t think that that's the case. Okay. Yeah. But I respectfully. I'm more of a kingdom come guy. No, I know that's not true. Is American Gangster a top 10 Ridley Scott movie? I think it is. Let's make it yellow for sure.

Okay. I think Josh Brolin's long leather coat makes it top 10. And his mustache. And his taking cocaine out of evidence rooms. If you could dress and act like that character and get away with it, would you do it? Yeah, but it's not something that a guy with my hairline can do.

Okay. I see. Incredible hair, Josh Brolin. Yeah. All right. Yellow for American. I would look like a Dr.

Who extra if I was doing that, but like he is the coolest guy of all time. 2008 body of lies. This is a CR classic. I don't, not sure it's good. The first hour of this movie is electrifying and then it turns into Leonardo DiCaprio's character

falls in love with a Doctors Without Borders woman. Who is she played by? Let me look. Is this a Dr. Christmas Jones situation like from the Bond film? It's not quite that bad, but it is pretty silly uh it is it is pretty silly who is it uh gold shift for ronnie oh yeah she's quite beautiful yeah yeah okay um

i'm not this isn't this isn't one for me no very dope oscar isaac performance in this you said that twice now about bad rithi scott movie he's like le Leo's homie in the beginning who gets him like the stolen Jeep and is like, let's go. It's good. Mark Strong's good in this. Mark Strong's good in everything.

This reminds me a lot of being at like Abilene with you in 2009. You're like, body of lies? Pretty good? Let's see. Let's see.

Because you know, everybody's like, this is the era here where we're like, it's all going to be personal preference. I'm just saying you're right russell crowe on a on a plugged in headset for his cell phone ordering drone strikes is pretty is pretty interesting aged very well too did you say it was like my like how i want the world to be it's just a movie you keep circling back to jmo territory you You keep bringing us there. 2010 Robin Hood.

That's a red. It's a red. A lot of definitive reds. 2012. When you know, you know. When you know, you know. 2012 Prometheus. Green as fuck.

Yeah. You agree. Yeah, it's amazing. Okay. I mean, it's one of the most upsetting things I've ever seen. Well, there's, yeah, the one scene in particular. Sure. Very, very hard to watch.

So I no we're doing no spoilers for prometheus i don't mean you know do we need to explain you know if you again if you know you know yeah his i mean his decision to make this movie fascinates me yes because he could have easily just like i made alien like we're good. And I'm also, I have many, many millions. And my legend is secured. He did this to box Neil Blomkamp out of the paint. Yeah. They were going to make more Alien movies without him.

And he was like, I'll do it. And yet there will now be another Alien. You know, there is another Alien movie coming out next year. That I guess has his blessing. That's the Fetty Alvarez. I was wondering if Noah Hawley has a show. He has a show. That's right. And Alvarez. I was wondering if Noah Hawley has a show. He has a show. That's right.

And then this film was originally conceived as a trilogy, I believe, the Prometheus Covenant, and there was a never made last one. Damon Lindelof

contributed heavily to the script for Prometheus, and it is like very biblical, mythological in its storytelling. Fascinating ideas at the center of the

movie. Breathtaking imagery. Beautifully made. it's crazy how good it is awesome Fassbender yeah yeah that's true he is terrific in this um I'm glad I'm happy to hear you both say green I of course agree this is one of my favorites of the 2010s 2013 the counselor hey now green yeah I mean what are we doing if we're not doing this so i re-watched it last night or at least parts of it here are the first three sequences a guy doing 180 on a motorcycle flying down an empty roadway yeah that's the first thing you see gets beheaded next scene michael fastbender goes down on penelope cruz under the sheets next scene

cameron diaz teaches a cheetah how to hunt while astride a horse. And, you know, Ridley Scott and Cormac McCarthy are like, you really want to see me try?

You want to go? Let's go. You want to see me try? I can do this. We can all do this. One of the most entertaining and fascinating movies also of the 20 cents.

It has its hive, right? It has its people who are like, you know, this is one of the great ones. I'm sitting with, right? It has its people who are like, you know, this is one of the great ones. I'm sitting with two of them. Yeah, we're founding members.

And obviously it was a tribute to his brother Tony like I mentioned earlier and it's very much a Tony movie. Although not made the way that Tony would have made it. It has more of that like, it doesn't have the chaos

of a Tony Scott movie. It's much more painterly like Ridley's movies are. An absolute Brad Pitt Cooperstown performance. Brad Pitt talking to Fassbender in the bar. Wearing a white cowboy suit drinking a Heineken. Magnificent shit. What a king.

And then eventually killed by the Bolito. Yeah. One of the more violent deaths of that decade. This is a magnificent movie. Is it a green? I say on the big picture, it is a green. Of course. Okay.

You agree, Chris. Yeah. That takes us to 2014. Bobby, have you seen The Counselor? No, I have not. I actually was thinking about this. Ridley is not one of the guys that I have like gone back and completed a lot of stuff that I wouldn't have seen in real time.

It's time. I would be curious to see your reaction to The Counselor. All right. Should I fire that up tonight? Yes. You could do a lot worse. Yeah. I think I have seen in real time time I would be curious to see your reaction to the counselor should I fire that up tonight yes you could do a lot worse yeah I think I'll have a good time yeah it's good it's I think it's streaming on

Paramount Plus yeah it's it's actually wow maybe I can finish Chris's favorite show of all time and then roll right into the lioness lioness and the counselor is oh my god

the CR had two episodes left I'm just gonna have myself a Chris Ryan night cortado oat milk cortado Linus and the Counselor is, oh my god. The CR has two episodes left. I'm just going to have myself a Chris Ryan night. Oat milk cortado? 2014 Exodus Gods and Kings. This sucks. I watched this on a plane recently.

It's so bad. It's really bad. Thumbs down. This was just like a ton of bad ideas meeting in the desert. Really awful CGI. Bad Joel Edgerton performance. I mean, couldn't most desert movies be described that way? Yeah.

I mean, it's a tough place to... Story-wise, at least. Yeah. Yeah. But I just... This was a real like... And I hate to say this because I don't like it when people do this about movies that I like, but no one was asking for this.

You know, no one was like, we got to get to the bottom of this Moses guy. What was up with him? I think he, I think that one of the things that Ridley likes to do is he likes to say, what were the movies that I grew up on? How can I do my version?

Yeah. And you, one of you might've mentioned, I think Chris mentioned Cecil B. DeMille and this is his Cecil B. DeMille movie. This is his Ten Commandments movie. This is his biblical epic. Another once,

once a staple in Hollywood filmmaking that has really gone by the wayside, even more so than the historical epic. The biblical epic, forget it. Like trying to make a biblical epic in 2014 was a bold stroke. I saw this movie

the day after a Grantland holiday party. Deeply hungover, just like I saw, I think that that's right. You saw Prometheus deeply hungover. I do. It was December 12th

and just like, it was the same thing. December 12th or thereabouts was the same time that Prometheus was released in 2012 and in 2014 he released this movie.

The experiences were very different. Yeah. This was very disappointing. It's really lost to time. It doesn't really have, it has no reputation just want to say also what a king still with like basically the holiday release every year for the

i don't know last 30 years of our life he really holds it down it's very very special yeah i mean he's he's a name brand he's a rare kind of like mid-tier name brand but he does have a name brand in 2015 he makes the martian uh which is the which is one of the best movies he's ever made. Green. Just an absolute green. Yeah. Really, really surprising movie from Ridley Scott. Didn't quite know he had this tone.

This was also one where, unlike the films that come after it, I feel like he lets everybody in this movie cook. I think that some of the films that come after this, I guess you couldn't say that for after it, I feel like he lets everybody in this movie cook. I think that some of the films that come after this, I guess you couldn't say that for House Gucci, but there's something about like, was he on set

when Donald Glover was doing that? You know what I mean? Or was he just like, you know what, you seem like you know what you're doing, man. That's what I mean.

There is something like, with the amount of play that is happening in the movie that is unusual for him because his movies are very tightly focused. Like all the stuff at NASA and it's so kind of like

sorkiny and fun and then all the stuff in space is so interesting and Damon is like at his maximum wattage. Of just, of holding the camera, yeah.

It's like a different version of dudes rocking but a lot of it is just like a movie star kicking his own, you know, version of ass with potatoes

like alone in a camera, you know, for like two hours. I have thought in the past few years that Drew Goddard should write another Ridley Scott movie too

that I feel like there's something about his sense of tone that meshes well with Ridley's ability to pull off like a big idea. Like it's hard to pull a big idea,

big picture, big vision movies. And Drew Goddard has a lot of those ideas but doesn't always get matched as a writer with filmmakers who can do that um it's a good one yeah really really great movie uh so that's an automatic green let's just let's tally our greens shall we we have eight two four six eight and we come to the final stretch. 2017, all the money in the world. Probably best remembered for having Kevin Spacey exiled out of the movie after the accusations of sexual assault and harassment

and replaced by Christopher Plummer. And also was a big film about pay disparity. That's right. Right, because of Michelle Williams and Mark Wahlberg. But then Christopher Plummer,

they reshot it and still made the holiday release deadline not only that but Christopher Plummer was nominated for Best Supporting Actor

and the movie did pretty decent business all things considered it's a weird movie that also became a Danny Boyle TV show like two years later or a year later

I like it okay. It's definitely a red though. Yeah. I think in the arc of his filmography. Very, I think Mark Wahlberg was very miscast.

Who's the star? Hilary Swank star in that Danny Boyle show? Well, Brendan Fraser was one of the detectives. Trust was the name of the show, yeah. Okay.

That same year, Alien Covenant. I'm a huge fan. I would not have thought starting this podcast year Alien Covenant I'm a huge fan um I would not have thought starting this podcast that Alien Covenant would be in contention

for a green but we do have some open slots we also have some yellows uh I don't know that we need three alien films I agree

I don't think it's really in contention for a green but it's nice that we have this moment and that you like it you and I ride for that first honestly we kind of ride for this movie acts one and two are amazing i act one is rip roaring yeah to me it's as energetic vital and terrifying as anything he's done like really upsetting the whole

heading out onto the planet and then coming back to the ship that stuff is nuts um i think it what it's doing in the second half with the fast. I think it, what it's doing in the second half with the Fassbender character is really interesting, but it's a bit... It's honestly confusing. It is a bit confusing

because there's a lot, there's doubling and there's, it's not quite sure who's kind of empowered and in control. There's like flashbacks to David's arrival there.

It's like, yeah, it's kind of odd. It's a little tricky, but again, like he was 80 when he made Alien Covenant. Like that's fucking nuts. I think it's red, but it's a little tricky but again like he was 80 when he made alien covenant like that's fucking nuts um i i think it's red but i it's a movie that i recommend to people um and if even

if it's the fourth best alien movie that's still pretty darn good okay uh 2021 the last duel yeah i'm a huge fan of this movie i think that you're a slightly bigger fan of it than I am, but it's pretty good. I mean, I think part of the reason I'm not like, yay, woo, is that it's a grim movie, you know? It's about a rape told like three times, increasingly upsettingly. But amazing Jodie Comer performance, amazing Adam Driver performance, Matt Damon, just kind of doing inverse Martian and being just a loser. Yeah, a dumbass. Just like, you know, but hats off to him for agreeing to take such a lame part.

Also, he and Ben Affleck famously co-wrote this script with Nicole Holofcener. And then Ben Affleck just gets to gallivant in. I mean, that's great thank you thank you for that alone this to me is like a solid yellow okay

a very good script I I found this movie a little dull in places but it was it was still pretty cool uh

I think I agree with Amanda it was like a little bit punishing after a while okay um you know then they

then they fight with armor and swords and stuff at the end. The jousting stuff is real. Really, really great. Does a lot of great work with horses. He does. The master of horse shooting. 2021 House of Gucci. So in revision, revisionist House of Gucci takes, do you guys feel like we

overhyped it? Do you? No. I don't. I had a fantastic time. Can you conceive of a time when you ever would be like we overhyped something?

I'll tell you what having seen Maestro I'm like I was right about Stars Born. And that's a movie we're obviously

often accused of overhyping. We were so right. Oh my god. But that was a movie we're obviously often accused of oh yeah we were so right oh my god that's but that was one where i was like this is a real director this is a person who really knows how to shoot and how to conceive and execute on a movie and i feel even more so about maestro so but we do that i mean i like how chris chris asks can you conceive of a time where you overhype something and sean was like no but i can conceive of this other time where i was right i I mean, this is my essence. No, I was just asking like,

because, you know, in the moment. As the killer in the killer said, Popeye said it best. I am what I am. Okay. So is Gucci yellow? I think it's red.

Okay. It's red, but it's green in my heart. The thing is, it's a fun movie. It's not the best movie's green in my heart. The thing is, it's a fun movie. It's not the best movie of the year, and no one on this pod ever said that. I think the funny thing about these movies is that they seem to routinely cost $200 million to make. That's not my problem.

I know. I feel the same way about the Mets payroll. That's what I'm saying. So you spend $400 million, I don't give a shit. I agree. When people are like, we need cap flexibility, I'm like, I don't really care. I hope we are able to keep the lights on in this gym so I can keep watching these dumb games.

When he's got Jared Leto in the box and he's like, I want to fly like a pigeon. I'm like, come on, man. This is movie magic. They put this bald cap on Jared Leto's head and let him do this. Every sweater that Adam Driver wears. I am not the anti-Gucci lobby. I was just trying to create an argument within the podcast

where we could talk about whether or not in the moment, we're prisoners of the moment. It's more important for you to answer that question. Amanda and I are on a journey together. I don't think I'll ever watch House of Gucci again. Okay, well, no more movie nights at my house. Not as like a political statement. But like, I don't even, does that, is that, that doesn't confirm.

It's not necessarily a confirm or, yeah, I feel like it's just a movie that it feels like a dream. You know, it feels like it was a dream that happened. It was a weird time, for sure. And I saw that movie in a movie theater and I was like, I feel so blessed to be able to be in a movie theater right now. Yeah. I'm sure that that informed a lot of our opinions at that time, but I don't regret any of those things. I mean, this is, the hype machine

is a part of this, what we built here. I mean, they just, they, how long, how many months did they spend filming in St. Moritz? Like, I just,

and sending us Instagram pictures. Thank you. Every day. The Italian economy thanks you. I thank you. I just want to say,

we were also, we were right about Tenet. Oh, yeah. I mean, fucking of course. I mean, except for when you guys tried to explain that to me at the end of the rewatch. We were not right about that? I am more confused still.

One thing I will say is that Salma Hayek was not very good in House of Gucci. Oh. Yeah, but you can't say that because her husband owns Gucci. I can say it and I did. Well, I know, but I think the point I'm trying to make is that someone else whose hall of fame we're building couldn't say that. So right. Fair enough. Um, do you think he wanted her in or you think she wanted in? And he was like, she will be in. Did you see the video of this penult? Is that the guy? His, I think son couldn't get into a club in France and he had like

a full meltdown on the bouncer and the bouncer was just like not like staring right through him. He's like when my dad buys this club I will end you! I was like we gotta get Ridley on this dude. Could be a good film. That takes us to 2023. Napoleon.

Chris said no. I didn't say no. Did I? I said it was eligible. If Last Duel is a yellow, this is a yellow. I didn't say no. Did I? I said it was eligible. I didn't say it was a yellow. This is a yellow. I feel the same way. I don't want to betray too much of my thoughts on Napoleon. Yeah.

Which I think is imperfect. But boy. Staggering. It's got some moments that are up there. We all had a great time. Yeah. Also very, very funny. Incredibly funny.

Very funny script. It is very similar though, I think, to The Last Duel in the House of Gucci in that it is this unusual melange of high-toned drama, a kind of like arch sort of satire, or like undermining our expectations of these very important historical people. And as you said, Chris, these portrayals of wealth and power and the kind of decrepitude. It's a campy chamber

drama meets gladiator. So maybe this is my favorite Ridley Scott phase. It is one that agrees with you. Yeah, I'm like, this is great. His interests and my interests are aligning. Owning a vineyard in Provence and making movies

about weirdo rich people. Well, so we've got eight and we've got a bunch of yellows. And spending $200 million on it. I would suggest that the 1984 for Apple computer advertisement actually should be in his Hall of Fame. Is that the revolution one? Yeah. That's the one they showed at the Super Bowl?

The woman with the tolling of the bell. Yeah, the Super Bowl commercial, which is an iconic commercial. It's really good. I just articulated the mission statement of the big picture on the watch the other day in fawning terms. I heard it and frankly, I was touched. That was really nice. I don't think that the big picture should lower itself to being like great Apple ad. I think you should champion cinema here.

Apple produced Napoleon. It's all the same to me. But he's not selling fucking iPhones. Yes, he is. It's all part of the circle. But he's not selling fucking iPhones. Yes, he is. It's all part of the circle. That's the thing. That's where we are now. They paid $200 million to make Napoleon

so they could sell more phones. All right, come back on this show if you say an Apple commercial is more important than White Squall. Do you ever watch the Apple commercial? That's incredible because I thought you were going to finish that sentence with Kingdom of Heaven,

director's cut. I mean it for American gangster. i mean it would i i mean i mean it for that i mean it for matchstick men okay i see i like to do a representative exercise that's something that i believe in the feedback that we get from whom from comments that you read on the internet and share with me that's not true i never do that when do i do that you tend to come back and you're like wow people were not really happy with our Hall of Fame. What I look at is Instagram DMs. Oh.

And here are the Instagram DMs I get. First of all, thank you, sir, for all the work that you've done. You are a beacon in this time of darkness. Then the second thing is you forgot to say, which of course we hate. Sure, yeah. And then the third thing is, let's see our cook. I get that sometimes.

That's for me. Those are all the bots that I created. I did all of them. The fourth thing is, you're doing Hall of Fames perfectly. Thank you so much for all of them. This always happens, which is that we've got one or two spots left. And there needs to be some debate and Sean, you know,

like writing my, you know, history book, fantasy logs on. Yep. And it's like, what we need to do is be representative. And this movie that we had already put in red or that like no one really

cares about, or that we gave yellow, like out of kindness, um, suddenly needs to be green. Cause it's the most important represent. It's like the linchpin in the history. And that's really boring.

And then Chris and I rebel against that. And then Chris is like, why don't we like really zag? And I love Chris. And I always think your suggestions are annoying. So I'm just like, sure, it was Chris. So she's like, yes, green raised by wolves. Yeah, why don't we zag?

Like white squall, number one. And then we all come back together and we're like, well, we feel really bad about all the choices that we've made. So what I'm saying is- Rather than repeat history like that. What if we just did Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut make our boy see our happy

let him cook as your comments asked and then I don't know what do you want to do? You want White Squall? No, no, no. You want American Gangster?

It's your birthday. No, no. I couldn't possibly. I couldn't possibly. I bend the knee. We have two slots open. Well, now we have one because we're going to do

Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut. No, you pick. You want to put the Apple ad in here. I'm merely trying to create fodder for discussion. Which I have achieved. What about the fact that

he executive produced Taboo? That is not eligible. How did Taboo end? He goes to America and then they were going to make season two in America and they never did. Hard to believe. Did you guys watch the series Numbers?

I'm sorry, hold on. Where did season one of Taboo happen? England. I mean, Taboo Island, obviously. I literally in my head thought it was an island. It is. England is an island. I know, but like a tropical island. An island with only the Taboo Island, obviously. Well, I literally, in my head, thought it was an island. Well, it is. England is an island. Oh, right. I know, but like a tropical island.

You know, an island with only like the taboo people. He's on his way to America at the end of Taboo. Okay, because it's really on a ship, right? Nope. It's all... What's the ship...

Did Tom Horner make a ship TV show? No, I don't think so. Okay, well, this has been a great podcasting. You're thinking of the North Water? Yes. And that's Colin Farrell. Oh, okay. But you understand my Okay. Well, this has been a great podcasting. You're thinking of the North Water? Yes. And that's Colin Farrell. Oh, okay.

But you understand my confusion. Andrew Hay, too. Sure. Okay. It's 6.30 where Bobby is, just putting it out there for you. It's funny. It's like whenever I talk about TV on this podcast, it just sounds so stupid. Because I always, it's just like, where did that end?

And did they make another season? No? Okay. I like Amanda's Loki act here though speaking of TV where she's like time slipping back earlier in the episode

to be like we could end this in a good place and not get into should the good wife be on this I have granted you the power to achieve

what Amanda has asked for he executive produced the good wife yes he did Scott Free his production with his brother his production company with his brother they made a lot of big TV shows okay I liked the good wife? Yes, he did. Scott Free, his production company with his brother.

They made a lot of big TV shows. Okay. I liked The Good Wife. I've never seen it. Really? Never seen an episode of The Good Wife. Never an episode. Do you know what happens or could you just start clean?

I know the premise. Right, but you don't know any of the major events. I followed it in pop culture for a time. Like me and Juliet talking about it. I'm sure I listened to many podcasts where you guys talked about it. It's pretty good. You think you invented the I listened to many podcasts where you guys talked about it. It's pretty good. You think you invented the I listen to the watch

but don't watch the shows. Trust me when I tell you that I invented it because I was there for day one from Hollywood prospectus. Truly, I was there. We were like,

Homeland Season 3. What do we got? Yes, that's a perfect example. Let's do American Gangster and Kingdom of Heaven. Fascinating. So tell me about American Gangster

as the choice over White Squall, Matchstick Men, The Last Duel, Napoleon. Those were the other yellows that we had. So why Kingdom of Heaven and Director's Cut and American Gangster? Kingdom of Heaven and Director's Cut, if you've seen it, I don't really think this is a huge, very controversial take. And I think it is really one of his great films. American Gangster, I think, is really one of his great films. American Gangster

I think suffered in the moment when it was released because of exactly what Sean was saying which is like I was promised The Godfather

and it wasn't. I think it features two really really incredible central performances. It's actually a really interesting like pretty global look at what happened

with the drug epidemic in this country. And then in the underside of it is trying to be Prince of the City you know so it's essentially

like his version of a Lumet movie and I think it actually works pretty well it's incredibly watchable I like it yeah I think it's more

just the expectations are Denzel and Crow squaring off at the end in the interrogation room that stuff is amazing as we said that part is great

I just made me want the Russell Crowe Denzel Washington I mean, it's so good. As we said, that part is great. It just made me want the Russell Crowe, Denzel Washington movie, which is, it's two movies in which they're separated. You know, they don't collide. And they have something between them. Yeah.

So, I mean, I guess, what would be the debate here? Would it be American gangster versus Napoleon? Probably. I mean, I'm sure that this will be recontextualized when Napoleon is received. My gut is that Napoleon will be like not very well received. It'll be like mid.

I think that there's stuff in Napoleon that far exceeds American Gangster, in my opinion. There is some big ticket movie making that three people can pull off in the world. Like a very, very short list. And he is still doing it. Still doing it. Like I just, Auster austerlitz that part of the movie there is he's the only person that can do that so maybe like denny villeneuve you know what i mean like there's a very it's a very short list of filmmakers so the fact that he's still

capable like when i leaned over to you and i was like where are they because i went to the bathroom and you're like austerlitz i was like oh okay so and that's a recency bias thing and then on the flip side matchstick then is a personal favorite yeah um but american gangster is a good movie and i think it's well liked so i'm down with it i mean this is like the obvious i i know i said that we shouldn't do this but now i'm doing it um i have a voice what we do you have the counselor here with a bullet like that's not obvious i guess that's true's true, but it's so obvious within these four walls, you know, that I didn't even

give a thought to whether the counselor would be in this. Okay. So here's our Hall of Fame for Ridley Scott. Alien,

Blade Runner, Thelma and Louise, Gladiator, Black Hawk Down, Kingdom of Heaven The Director's Cut, American Gangster, Prometheus the

counselor and the Martian pretty good it's really good just a great that's a really solid movie watching and then you could even get away with 13 or 14 and you'd still be you'd

still be golden yeah yeah plus one ad plus one ad I mean he's been many ads yeah I mean he's been a great many ads and plus an episode of numbers you just wanted to see how he'd sprinkle it on the small

screen, you know? It's a big show. It's a very popular show. Rob Morrow, right? What happens on Numbers? Rob Morrow's a cop and his brother is a math whiz. Yeah, it's like Beautiful Minds It. Oh, okay. It's okay. Pretty good.

How many crimes can you solve with numbers? Oh, you'd be surprised. There were 118 episodes of that series. So at least 118. You guys feel good about this? I do. It was pretty bloodless, you know? Much like Ridley's feeling in his films?

I'm just asking questions. I'm just trying to get to the root of Chris' love I'm excited to hear the conversation about Napoleon if I'm invited so be it you always do that I know that my third chair at him is always if you see the films you're invited that's the rule you know that

I would be really interested to see the version of Napoleon that was just his military conquest and I would be really interested to see the version of Napoleon that was just his military conquest and I would be very interested to see the version

that was just at court yeah I feel like they are two different movies sometimes I would argue

that they are meant to be correlated whether or not that hits for you is certainly up for debate any any regrets samantha you feel okay no i feel good about this okay well thank thank you so much guys i'm gonna have a

conversation now with errol morris oh yeah yeah so i was it contentious uh it wasn't but he wanted to speak of other contentions okay which is sort of what he does. Yeah. But it was mostly friendly. And then he emailed me afterwards. Did you see that the late John Le Carre's son is now going to write George Smiley novels? I did see that. Yes. That is my plan

for when you pass away. I will be redoing all of these. This takes place chronologically after the 2006 draft and it's when Sean swears fealty

to TV hold on I have to go rewrite my will and testament to make sure that never happens I got all the files

I'm gonna let Chris go back in there and retroactively edit them if he needs to oh my god none of you can be trusted let's go back in there and retroactively edit them if he needs to. Oh my God. None of you can be trusted.

Let's go to my conversation with Errol Morris. We are rejoined on The Big Picture by the great Errol Morris. Errol, thank you for being here. I wanted to start by asking you, do you remember the first time you read any of John Le Carre's work? I read The Spy Who Came In From the Cold a long time ago. And I read a good part, I don't think I read the entire book of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. And when there was this possibility of doing a film with John le Carré, I read The Pigeon Tunnel. And I read a lot of other novels.

I can't claim to have finished all of them. I did not. But I did finish The Pigeon Tunnel and loved it. Still love it. It's my favorite book by John Le Carre. What appealed to you not being a super fan? Because Le Carre has so many super fans. So what was it about him that you were intrigued by to spend time doing this film

it's hard to know whether this was the initial impulse but it certainly quickly became a major impulse i kept thinking of him in connection with graham green joseph conrad the writers who immediately come to mind people had this odd kind of meat grinder. I don't know how better to describe it. Turning biography, storytelling, and history into literature. Conrad did it again and again and again all over the world. Likewise, Graham Greene, and most certainly John Le Carre. In fact, my film,

my adaptation of The Pigeon Tunnel, seizes on that connection between his stay in Bonn as a civil servant and as a young spy, the construction of the Berlin Wall and the creation of, which still for me is his finest novel, his finest character, so well adapted by Martin Ritt and Richard Burton, The Spio Came in from the Cold.

It's an amazing work of literature. When you first spoke to him for the film, what did he know about you? Seemingly a lot. The guy does his homework. I try to do my homework, but he most certainly does his homework. He had seen a lot of my films.

He had thought a lot about me. And clearly, he had thought a lot about the whole process of conducting an interview or being interviewed by me. So, yeah, there's an engagement with me and my work, which is quite unusual. I don't know if I can compare it to any other experience that I've had. I think it's unique. What I like the most about it, like, why do I make films? I don't know why I make them, but they do provide an opportunity to think about things. And working with him is an opportunity to endlessly think about things that really interest me. The nature of history, truth, the connection between biography and art.

He is a remarkable subject and probably the most articulate subject I have ever had. I mean, he is really, really, truly eloquent. I wanted to ask you a bit about that and seeing him in the lineage of your subjects in the past, but you did something really interesting in this film. You chose to open the film by having him address who you are, which then sort of transforms into a thesis of the film and who anyone is and what is identity and all of these other things.

But I was fascinated by that decision because sometimes you don't even appear at all in your work. And in this case, he's sort of upfront to saying, I know about you. Let's get to the bottom of who you are, Errol. Why did you do that? I didn't do it. He did it. But you put it in there. I put it in there, yes. But that's how the interview started. I remember I was working with a writer, a New Yorker writer, Philip Gurevich

on Standard Operating Procedure, my movie about Abu Ghraib. And at some point, Philip said to me, you know, you start every interview the same way. And I said, I don't know. He said, you always ask your subject. Maybe it's not even a question. Maybe it's a statement. I don't know where to start. It's a kind of act of are ticked off one by one by one. Something happens and you explore stuff, hopefully together. Sure, there's stuff I know I want to

cover. There are themes I want to cover. There are books I want to talk about. But notwithstanding, there should be some flexibility about how it all unreels, unspools. I want to pitch a theory at you that maybe subconsciously you did this, or maybe purposefully, or maybe David Cornwell did this to you but i think opening the film that way almost feels like underlining this idea that this person that you're speaking with may try to elide the truth as frequently as possible in this conversation and the opening moments of the movie he's turning the tables on you the way a spy might try to with spycraft am i overreading that. I'm not sure I understand the idea that it's all about elision, how he telegraphs the idea that he's not going to be totally forthcoming. What he does do is he muddies the water between interviewing and interrogating liberally because, guess he's an interrogator or he was or he wants to be seen as an interrogator i found this line in the movie still baffling the whole purpose was to detect the lie.

Not only detect the lie, you, the interrogator, detect the lie, and then you tell the person you are interrogating that you have detected the lie and you observe how they will react to that ineluctable fact. Now, I don't quite see things that way. Detecting the lie, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. My interviews have too much of a desultory quality. They're emergent. It's no clear agenda, no framework to tell you that this is where we're going to head, and I'm after this piece of information, and you're going to give it

up, okay, buddy? Maybe I'm not going to bring out the thumb screws or the rack or the Strapato, but I'm going to go after hammer and tongs, this piece of information that I want you to reveal. Well, it's not the way it works for me. And I felt he scared me.

He's dead. He still scares me. But you're not an interrogator. You're an interviewer. I don't know what the hell I am. I really don't. I mean, I made this movie, The Thin Blue Line. I'm investigating a murder in Dallas. And you could say that a lot of my interviews were interrogations because I was interested, clearly interested, in getting information, in getting the various people, whether they were police officers or so-called witnesses to the murder.

I wanted them to spill the beans. I wanted them to tell me something that I didn't know. But it's a strange, murky line between the two. And I don't think it's so easy to say, oh, interrogation. Oh, interview. Oh, combination of both. I don't think it works that way either. But I do think there's a difference. And I think both elements, that's what I've come down to, having mulled this over for a couple of years. There are elements of both. Well, it's really interesting.

I've thought about this movie in the context of the Rumsfeld film and the McNamara film as a kind of a trilogy. And the stakes on those first two films are very different from the stakes of this film, just like the stakes of The Thin Blue Line are very different from, I don't know, My Psychedelic Love Story, you know, to pin your work against each other. But they thematically feel very close. And the interrogator- interviewer question is very important because the interrogator is about power and the interviewer is about questing for information

and there's a that balance is kind of important like so when you sit down before a film you don't say i have to get this information out of this person otherwise what is the purpose of this project? Nope. I don't. What I do say to myself is I hope this guy will be interesting or this gal will be interesting. I hope they'll say interesting stuff. When I first started doing interviewing, I developed this school. At least I thought of it as a school. I called it the shut the fuck up school of interviewing. And the goal was to get people to talk without interrupting them. Get them to talk at length. Gates of Heaven, my first film, was a product of just that way of thinking. I used to say, let people alone,

let them talk freely for three to four minutes, and they will show you how crazy they really are. Just simply shut the fuck up. And it worked. But it's hard when you're investigating a murder to say that you're not interested in facts and in eliciting information. So, yeah, interrogations, interviews, a little bit of both, maybe a combination of both. I don't know.

Can I pose an unanswerable question to you? Oh, I like unanswerable questions. Do I have to answer the unanswerable question? I hope you will try. I wonder if you had not successfully proven your point in the thin blue line, and that case was effectively overturned, then maybe you would be more interested in answering or confirming some of those facts in your future films.

But because you achieved something that was so incredible and legendary to this day, then maybe you have been relieved of some stress in terms of pursuing stories. What do you think of that? I don't know. The stakes have always been different

in every single film. The stakes were so high in The Thin Blue Line because there had to be a fact of the matter. Do I believe the truth is subjective? I most certainly do not. Not, not, not. I believe that truth is objective. One truth. You're talking about a car on a lonely

road in West Dallas stopped by a police officer and the driver pulls a gun from out underneath the seat and sends five bullets into this policeman, Robert Wood. Now, this is not up for grabs. There's a real world out there. Let's get real here, so to speak. Let's get real. There's a real world. Philip K. Dick was very fond of pointing out, reality is that which does not go away

when we cease to believe in it. It hangs in there, whether you like it or not. And I think in the case of Abu Ghraib, all these questions emerge. Abu Ghraib still, it's really interesting when people have an understanding of a historical event, even if it's wrong, they don't want to give it up. And somehow they constantly interpret it in one way, even though you may offer completely contrary evidence. Take Abu Ghraib as a good example. Digital cameras are just coming into existence for the first time.

So these women buy, at the commissary, digital cameras. They come on the hard site, this prison site, and they start snapping pictures. And the pictures that they snap, particularly Sabrina Harmon, are pictures of hooded, naked prisoners standing off in a pool of their own urine, zip-tied to bars, and they take a picture of it. What's so interesting about it is this is like almost pure documentary photography. Now, it descended into all kinds of abuse, but it started out as recording the crimes that were being orchestrated by the American military, by our government.

And consistently they became the bad apples, as if somehow all of this originated with them and not with us. I like thinking about these things. What can I say? I like that as a question of whether or not that is the truth, those photos, or whether or not they are just a part of a larger contextual story. Something that has been rattling around since I've watched The Pigeon Tunnel is, do you think of Cornwell as a modern figure or a historical figure? Because obviously a lot of what he did define some of the 20th century but the idea of identity and brand and only sharing what you want people to see is a very modern idea it's a very 21st century idea have you thought about kind of if he predicted

anything or if he represents something going forward? It's an interesting question. I see him as a very modern writer and as a historical writer, both. Do I have to choose one? I'm not wired to electricity, so you can't shock me into a confession, but I see him as both. A guy really engaged by history, horrified by history. You know, he gave up his British citizenship or took on Irish citizenship. He hated Brexit so much. The stupidity of what he felt was Brexit in its essence. A guy constantly thinking about history and the mechanisms of history.

No, he's a very modern writer and a very powerful writer. And the movie, I believe, gives us the tools to think about what his family was like and how it might relate to his fiction. I don't tell you what to think. I try to avoid that kind of thing, but I do try to give you the various building blocks that would enable you to create a picture of what's going on in this world. That's what I hope. So the last time we spoke, we were talking about one of your films, but the conversation led to a discussion of an adaptation of your book, A Wilderness of Error, which was a very interesting conversation that we had. And I thought that was why, that reaction. And part of that, it was interesting to me that you chose to affect it. I will never, ever, ever, ever. How many evers do I want? Ever, ever, ever do it again. I remember you saying that too, but I thought it was so interesting

that you chose to adapt a book after that experience, a book that you did not write. And I'm wondering if you thought about whether or not you needed to make a faithful adaptation of The Pigeon Tunnel or not. I don't know what a faithful adaptation is, but I can tell you in the case of Wilderness of Error that the guy was a dunderhead. He missed the whole point of the book. I mean, is that a faithful adaptation, an unfaithful adaptation? It's a moronic interpretation. So what I did not want to do is do a moronic interpretation of the pigeon tunnel i wanted to do something that had some kind of content and try to capture some of what interested me what interested david and what interested his readers you write a book i wrote a book, I wrote a book, like Wilderness of Error. What was I obsessed with?

The quote comes from Edgar Allan Poe's doppelganger story, William Wilson. You're talking about a guy who actually adores Edgar Allan Poe. And the line is, seeking an oasis of fatality amidst a wilderness of error. And what does that mean? It means in a sea of confusion, of randomness, of looking for some kind of bedrock, some kind of object that you can latch on to

that gives you some feeling of security. I am endlessly fascinated by the McDonald case. Why? Because he endlessly professed his innocence, because the proceedings about his guilt and innocence dragged. All of these confusions about the evidence. And I like the idea of going through that wilderness, if you like, of trying to figure out what's going on here. My book, even though I say at the end, I believe in Jeffrey's innocence, I can't prove it. Uncle, I can't do it. One thing you learn as an investigator, at least I've learned as an investigator, it doesn't matter whether you're a criminal investigator or a historian, sometimes the evidence isn't just there. It's elided. It's destroyed. It's reassembled, torn up, discarded. And I wanted to tell a story.

The story was how in his legal proceedings, there was horrible unfairness. If we think that there should be some kind of fairness in our justice system, I believe there was not in this case. A lot of people want to just argue, well, he's guilty. He's obviously guilty. So whatever they had to do in order to prove his guilt is fair game. I don't quite see it that way. And the guy who made this adaptation, I'm sorry, missed the entire point of my book. Is that what you look for in an adaptation? Well, be my guest.

I'm not going to be enthusiastic about it. I find it really interesting. I mean, that adaptation is interesting to me for a variety of reasons. I can recall watching it with my wife after having read your book and early on in the series being like, what is, this is not the book, what is happening here? But anyway, the idea of going from that experience or at least observing someone do that with your book and then moving on to a

story where I, you know, the truth is really in a kind of wilderness of error in the Cornwell story. I mean, as I'm, as I was watching your film, I was sort of like, how much am I supposed to be buying this? Like, I honestly don't know how much he wanted to shape a reality that we're willing to accept. What weren't, because I've read this again and again in reviews, and maybe I'm thick. I wouldn't preclude that possibility. I could be the thickest guy on God's green earth.

That's not the case. You know that. Okay, thank you. But what did you think that was an article of untruthfulness? I don't know how sincerely to interpret any of his readings of any events. Philby, for example, the entire like explanation of that entire story, because I don't know anything about that story. But what I do know is that Le Carre is, and was raised by a trickster and that the trickster mentality defines him.

And so because of that, we have, we have a film where we don't forget about unreliable narrator. I mean, we're in a whole new vector of understanding of what a character is father like son presumably the father a trickster a liar why not the son as well and and and i think it's interesting that you are the person to make this because you have made work that sincerely investigates wrongdoing or confusion in our culture and so it's it's these this meeting point of the person who resists telling a truth and a person who is questing for a truth and so of course it's a great

meeting but i i felt like i couldn't trust him watching the movie well when you trust really anybody i came up with one glib answer to this kind of complaint, that any movie that makes you think about what's true and what's false is better than a movie that doesn't. Well put. Well, I don't know well put, but I think it's true. And David is one of the very few people that I've interviewed who actually tells you that a lot of the stuff he's telling you is untrue. Who does that? I mean, if you wanted to reap a kind of ironic uncertainty, you could do no better than David Cornwell. It's no accident that people sort of wonder, well, he tells you the story about his

father, the Monopoly man. Well, first of all, he's not the Monopoly man. He's in prison. And he tells you he's walking on the street, he looks up, there's his father, he's the Monopoly man, not the Monopoly man. And then he tells you at the end of the whole thing that he subsequently learned there was no way he could possibly have seen his father because those cells were not visible from the street. What is that telling me? I don't know. It's telling me that it's not veridical, that's for sure. Although maybe he's lying. Maybe you couldn't see the cells from the street. What it does is it makes you think about the whole process of narration and explanation.

And if that's part of the movie, I think that's pretty good. I had a related question about that idea. I thought the way that you photographed him, filmed him, was really interesting. And felt, even by your standards, a bit unusual. A lot of Dutch angles. A lot of close-up, odd framing of his face. Even Brody from The New Yorker took me to task. How dare you do these Dutch angles?

I don't know. Well, why did you do them? I was curious to hear about that. Again, because of the twisted perspective that runs through the whole story. It seemed, you know, dare I use metaphors, visual metaphors in filmmaking? Maybe I should be flawed, senseless. Well, I think in documentary, that's uncommon.

It's uncommon to see. Maybe it's not heard of, but you know, this whole documentary drama thing, which I've been tortured with, unwittingly tortured over the years. Is there really a difference? Or are there elements in both? Brody wrote a sterling review of wise guys and attacked the pigeon tunnel. But the idea of illustrating narration,

I mean, it's part of filmmaking. Please be kind to me. I'm just a filmmaker trying to make a movie. When people turned off the thin blue line, they were looking at the movie in consideration for the Oscars. And supposedly the documentary committee, I hear this anecdotally, secondhand, thirdhand, whatever. The first reenactment comes up and they start waving their flashlights to turn the movie off. This is a no-no. How dare you? This is not part of documentary. And then everyone called them reenactments. Okay, that's another strike against you. What am I reenacting? I'm trying to

pull a fast one. I'm trying to show you that this is reality. This is truth. Well, while I was making the Thin Blue Line, I kept wondering, how do you take something as complex as a murder case and by the Dallas police officer on that lonely, cold road in West Dallas, was there one person in the car or two? And that's what I illustrated. They both can't be true. Uh-uh-uh-uh has to be one or the other. But what it does is it forces you to think about where truth lies. It's not showing you the truth. It's framing a question so you can think about the truth. And I think that's the essence of my art. Damn it. You did it with the pigeon tunnel as well i could talk to you for

hours but we have to wrap up i end every episode of this show errol by asking a filmmaker what's the last great thing they have seen have you seen anything recently that you've enjoyed uh-oh what have i seen that i've enjoyed i must have seen something so those questions I somehow draw a blank. Movies still fascinate me, and I still wonder about them. I mean, I still have my enthusiasms about film, and I don't draw lines between documentary and drama. I never have. Why documentary? I'd like to stop doing it, by the way. I have a script that I plan to make. I do documentary because you get to explore stuff. You get to reinvent

filmmaking. Someone came up to me and they asked me about how do you pick the actors in the pigeon tunnel i said how do i pick the actors the same way that anybody picks acting actors i got a casting director they showed me a variety of people who might want to play these roles and then they made a decision about who to cast in those roles it's not like there's one set of rules for this and another set of rules for that. It's making a movie. It's making film.

Now I'm babbling. And I didn't even answer your question. Have you seen a documentary recently that you were jealous of or that really had you thinking? I don't think I have. You've been doing this too long. I'm getting to see Fred Wiseman later this week. And Fred is now 93 and he's still working.

It's incredible. I haven't seen his new film. Apparently it's quite good. I want to see his new film and I hear it's quite good. Is Fred one of my heroes? Absolutely. You should film your conversation with Frederick Wiseman. That would actually be a good film.

He would never let me, but I could ask. He, um, he's a person who loathes to talk about his own work for the most part. Um, but he might be our greatest living filmmaker. I will accept that as a recommendation of all of his work.

Errol, thank you so much. It's so nice to talk to you. Okay. Thank you. I will accept that as a recommendation of all of his work. Errol, thank you so much. It's so nice to talk to you. Okay, thank you. I enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Thank you to Errol Morris. Thanks, of course, to CR. Happy birthday, CR.

Thanks, man. We love you, brother. Thank you. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Next, of course, to CR. Happy birthday, CR. Christopher! We love you, brother. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Next week, Amanda, we have a double feature. An exciting double feature. A holiday double feature for

us and all the kids around the world. Alexander Payne's The Holdovers and The Hunger Games, colon, a ballad of songbirds and snakes. Word on the street is that HG is back. It's back. Yeah. I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't say. We'll see you then.