The Big Picture - The Snubs and Surprises of the Academy Award Nominations

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

It appears we have a historic and … good (???) set of nominees for the 93rd Academy Awards. Sean and Amanda dive into all the narratives, break down who missed out and why, and look at which film is likely to take home the big prize on April 25.  Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's music critic Rob Harvilla curates and explores 60 iconic songs from the 90s that define the decade. Rob is joined by a variety of guests to break it all down as they turn back the clock. Check out 60 songs that explain the 90s exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the very good nominations for the 93rd Academy Awards. Let's get right into it, Amanda. Priyanka Chopra Jonas and Nick Jonas woke up early to announce the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and

Sciences nominations for the 93rd Academy Awards, and so did we. It was a historic morning in many respects, and there were some surprises and some snubs. Amanda, what jumped out to you right away about these Academy Award nominations? I was right, baby! In what respect? Judas and the Black Messiah, we did it! They did do it. They got six nominations for Judas and the Black Messiah, six nominations for Minari, ten nominations for Mank. There was a whole heap of nominations. There were some shocking things. There were some mildly surprising things.

There were the requisite snubs. All in all, though, did you feel as I did that there were a lot of good nominations this year? Yes, I like most of the things on this list. And many of the things that I was iffy about, well, that's not fair, actually. Some things I really liked are not on this list, and that's a bummer. I think Delroy Lindo in particular and just Defy Bloods basically not being nominated with the exception of Best Score is disappointing. And there are other kind of personal favorites and things you and I would have liked to see,

but I do like all of these movies, and I do mostly like the emphasis of the movies in terms of the films that got the most nominations are also films that I'm a fan of. Me too, which is unusual. I think for the most part, the films that were most recognized were the films that we most responded to on this show. So let's talk about Best Picture. Obviously, that is the big prize and there were some surprises there. You, I think, selected nine films that you thought would be nominated on last Friday's show. Over the weekend, I gave it some thought. I picked eight movies that I thought would be nominated. We were both wrong. In fact, there were eight films picked, but not the films that we selected. So here are the nominees for Best Picture. Judas and the Black

Messiah, The Father, Manc,c minari nomadland promising young woman sound of metal the trial of the chicago seven two very notable omissions here that many people had pegged primarily ma rainey's black bottom and what was the other one that was one night in miami so these two films were cast aside but black judas and the black messiah and the father i don't think either of us were necessarily bullish on their likelihood, though you did see Judas getting in. And lo and behold, it's there. I was hopeful. Again, I compared it to the Phantom Threads surprise of 2017, I guess, 17, 18, when we woke up. And a movie that was released later in the awards season and that had kind of

been overlooked by the critics' bodies and earlier awards shows just woke up with a lot of nominations and we were happy. And I felt that way when I woke up and saw Judas and the Black Messiah across the board. Yeah, these are two films, I think, Judas and the Black Messiah and The Father that have only recently been released. And so that recency bias that we've talked about a handful of times on this show in the past seems to have emerged there in a positive way. The Father in particular is a film that most people have not seen. If you were not an attendee of Sundance 2020 or able to visit a movie theater in the last six weeks, then you probably haven't seen The Father. And so that might be a little confusing. You were a big fan of that film. I'm sure we'll be talking about it a lot more. It actually was one of the most recognized films in this whole slate.

Let's talk about some other surprises. I think the single, I would say the single biggest surprise for me this morning was Lakeith Stanfield being recognized in Best Supporting Actor for Judas and the Black Messiah. Now, there are many people somewhat confused by this because, of course, his co-star, Daniel Kaluuya, is also recognized in Best Supporting Actor. And so we have a film with two titular lead characters, Judas and the Black Messiah, and somehow they are both supporting actors. Make it make sense, Amanda. You gotta let it go.

You just, everyone, got to let it go. You just, everyone, you got to let it go. And you have to be happy that two actors that we really like and two performances we like got nominated for Oscars. Like, is there some deeper kind of category fraud stuff going on here? Sure. And ultimately, do you want to see the young Black actors you really like in the main category and in lead actor? Yes. In this particular case, I think they were both nominated and supporting because Chadwick Boseman is a lock in best actor. So they're trying to work the odds and

I don't begrudge anyone working the odds. I think what the way that this works is when the actors branch votes at this stage that you can vote for actors in either category. If you think that Daniel Kaluuya is a lead actor, you're able to cast your vote that way and likewise for Lakeith. So that just means that an overwhelming number of people voted for Lakeith Stanfield as a supporting actor and did the same for Kaluuya. And so there's no way to sort of control it other than the vagaries of the campaign. And I got to say, I don't think I saw a single person who had Lakeith tapped here. And we talked about his performance on the show. We talked about that character, William O'Neill. It was interesting to listen to Wesley Morris and Bill Simmons talk on Bill's show last Friday about some of the issues that they had with that character and the way that the movie was framed. I had such an opposite opinion of it. I really thought that part of what made the film work so well was that incredible, ambivalent, restrained performance that Stanfield gives. And so this was pretty cool to see. Yeah, I agree with you. And I also really enjoyed that conversation. And I think maybe

received the performance in the same way in that it is opaque, but I thought it was intentional. And that because a lot of the expositional work and brings you into the film. And that's a hard job. And to do that with the nuance that Lakeith Stanfield does, I'm happy to see him. Me too.

So the one thing, I guess, that is notable in this respect is if Lakeith is nominated and Kaluuya is nominated and Kaluuya has been the front runner for the most part, do you think that there's any chance that because they're nominated from the same film, there's any kind of vote split here, which would then challenge Kaluuya's opportunity to win? Not really. Do you think that we over invest in vote splitting as a narrative?

I don't know. I think in Osc's past, sometimes it has been very meaningful and it seems to have cost people awards. And in other cases, the front runner in a category is the front runner in a category. And Kaluuya has clearly been the front runner for the last six weeks. So I genuinely don't know. But I also, if you would have asked me three hours ago, if Lakeith was going to be in the running, I would have said no chance. I would have said he's in 13th place. So who knows? That's true. To me, this just suggests that Judas and the Black Messiah is on people's minds and on voters' minds. And it's part of a larger narrative of this film getting a lot of nominations and people wanting to recognize both of those actors. I don't think that means they can't

choose when the time comes. And I do think Daniel Kaluuya is just, I will be shocked. I could be wrong, but I will be shocked if he doesn't win. Okay. Let's mark that. Bobby, capture that audio so that we can replay it for Amanda on April 25th. I said I could be wrong. I got in front of it, but I will be shocked. And I'll be disappointed. I love that performance. And I love Daniel Kaluuya. Me too. The biggest shock after Lakeith, I thought, was Thomas Vinterberg being recognized for Best Director here. He is, of course, the Danish filmmaker who, you know, made a wonderful film

that we've talked about very glowingly. He was a guest on the show with Mads Mikkelsen a few weeks ago. I did see a couple of people tout him as a potential spoiler in this category, but almost no one, again, thought that there was a chance that he would

step in here and he he knocked out the presumed aaron sorkin nomination and so this was fascinating now another round is another film that maybe not a lot of people have seen it had only previously been available to stream on uh you know vod services it's now available on hulu if you want to watch another round i I think Amanda and I both give it a glowing recommendation. Go do it right now. Don't Google it. Don't Google it. Just go watch. What did you make of this nomination? Were you shocked? I was surprised. Again, when we were doing our nominations, I was like, wouldn't it be nice if we could just take Aaron Sorkin out of this? There are a lot of deserving directors. And again, I'm a noted Aaron Sorkin fan.

I do not think that he was one of the best directors of this year. I just don't. And so it's nice that there was room made for Thomas Winterberg. I think you pointed out on Twitter and a lot of people have that the Academy is increasingly an international body. And this is really where you can see it. But that's cool. We live in a world.

So it was nice to see him. And if more people see Another Round as a result, that's great by me. Yeah, I agree. I think the director's branch in particular is very international and historically has recognized people like Michael Haneke and Pavel Pavlikovsky. And it's not so unusual to see a filmmaker from Europe or from Asia to be recognized in this category. Other surprises.

Best Supporting Actress was a pretty challenging category to predict this year. And it didn't quite shake out the way that I thought it would, but it did shake out in a way that I was happy with. So, Ya Zheng Yun was recognized from Inari, which was fantastic. Maria Bakalova was recognized from Borat subsequent movie film.

Did you, did you see that one coming? I think so. Okay. And Amanda Seyfried was recognized from Mank. Fantastic. Can you remind me, like who else was in the running?

Cause these were the names that we were talking about all season. So now I can't remember. I think the biggest and boldest name was Jodie Foster that did not get recognized this morning. Oh, yes. Correct. And, of course, was coming off of a Golden Globe win and, of course, was quite famous. And people liked her work in the Mauritanian. But she's not here. And even though there were these wonderful nominations in this category, also Olivia Colman was recognized for her work in The Father.

I have a strong feeling that Glenn Close is going to win now because of the way that this shook out. What do you think about that? If that's what they want to do, I don't know what to say. We need some sort of head scratcher at the Academy Awards, right? Or else what are we doing? I think you and I both woke up like slightly bewildered both by the time. But by the way, let's just let's not schedule the nominations the day after the clocks roll forward or back or whatever it is.

Horrible, Amanda. I'm really pro the clocks being on the setting they're currently on. Thank you. But let's just let's not make everybody wake up at 4 a.m. body clock time. Thank you. Yeah. There were so many things mismanaged about this Academy Awards schedule. Sure, we'll get into that. But anyway, you and I woke up bewildered by the time and also by the fact that we mostly really like these awards or these nominations. So you, and we like Glenn Close. Respect to Glenn Close. I don't think either

of us liked this performance or ever want to speak about Hillbilly Elegy in any way, shape, or form ever again, ever. But I guess a large group of people got to make a mistake every once in a while. Yeah, it does seem like we're heading in that direction. Maybe we'll be surprised. Maybe Baka Lova will be recognized. Maybeanda seyfried we shall see a couple of other surprises that i thought were notable the white tiger raman barani's film on netflix was recognized in best adapted screenplay i don't think i would have predicted that i did see a handful of people pundits had said that that was a possibility because of the nature of that um that that field that category this year and then husavik from Eurovision was nominated for Best Original Song.

Can you sing Husavik for us now? No. Start to finish. Begin. You told me to stop singing on this podcast. No, that's not true. I lightly chided you for doing so, but I would encourage you.

Music is important, as you would say. Okay. No Wuhan Flu from Borat's subsequent movie film. Would you like to sing it one more time in memoriam? Go right ahead. Meet me on the corner of my home later tonight. I'll be doing a live performance of Wuhan flu. Meet me on the corner of my home?

What does that even mean? That's the most fun thing. Don't come anywhere near my home in order to do this really joke performance of a song from Borat 2, but just stand in the corner. No one knows what that is, Sean. Let's go to the next surprise. My Octopus Teacher in Best Documentary. Have you seen My Octopus Teacher? Do you remember the My Octopus Teacher moment? Yes, I do. I've been told the plot of My Octopus Teacher by multiple people in my life who stayed up at 2 a.m. like weeping over my octopus teacher in a very vulnerable moment during lockdown. And I think that's great. I know what happens. And frankly, I don't need to open myself up emotionally to that. That's like I got other things. So you mean open yourself up emotionally to an octopus? What do you what do you mean?

Yeah, basically, or just, you know, human need and longing. There's other places where I get that, okay? Fair enough. My Octopus Teacher is a nice film. I think there are between 10 and 30 documentaries I probably would have preferred to have seen here. But, you know, it clearly is a film that gave a lot of people solace and they enjoyed it. And Pippa Ehrlich and James Reader recognize. You can watch that movie on Netflix right now if you haven't heard of it or seen it. Because I think this is the first time that we uttered those words on this show this year. There were no surprises, I thought, in best actor or best actress.

Would you agree with that? Yes. Those are completely correct, but solidified now. And you have been saying in the last few months that this is kind of a thing that has happened, that these categories in particular are getting calcified very early on. It strikes me as not necessarily great for this because there were a lot of cool surprises today, but these two categories, they seem to get locked in in like October and stick for a long period of time. Do you think this can be fixed in any way? We should say there was kind of one open slot in each

that was open until a few weeks ago, really until the Golden Globes, which given the extended weird award season, I mean, I'm not going to begrudge Andra Day or Steven Yeun. That's great to see both of those people. But for the most part they seem to be announced like with the festival programming like everyone's like you know here's the special award at Toronto or here's what we're doing at Venice and then six months later these are your actor and actress nominees so I don't know. It would be great to change it up,

but it seems like because it's so personality driven, you know, and that's what all Oscar campaigns are, right? Like everyone sees the movies and then you decide, okay, this is like the political one and this is the feel good one. And this is the one that old people are going to like and you play those against each other but actor and actress it's just this is this person who I've known forever or this is the newcomer it's right there on its face and so you don't have to work as hard

for the narratives and I think there's kind of like less to play with so I don't know how you shake it up um beyond introducing some sort of like long, short list playoff situation to try to amp up the intrigue. Okay, let's talk about Snubs. Snubs is a complex and ill-defined word around this time of year. And obviously, everyone who is recognized is very fortunate and everyone who wasn't will be able to go on with their careers because they have a great life in the arts. However, we mentioned No Ma Rainey's Black Bottom and No One Night in Miami and Best Picture. Why do you think those films didn't necessarily resonate with the Academy? It's pretty confusing. It's not confusing, but I think we were both

surprised. I mean, the obvious thing that they have in common is that they are both film adaptations of plays and they are filmed plays. And that's reductive. And I think that doesn't give credit to what both of those directors do with those film plays. And One Night in Miami, I thought it was really interesting to hear Wesley and Bill talk about Regina King as a director of performers and the way that the charisma and those four people together really do come to life.

And then I think that you and I were both really impressed with what George Seawolf did with Ma Rainey in terms of like the movement and it not feeling just like four walls and a play. So there is a lot of skill involved in both of those, but I guess people just looked at it and were like, okay, that was a play that the actors in both films were recognized and kind of left it at that. That's my best explanation. Yeah, I think that's reasonable. Obviously, Leslie Odom Jr. and Viola Davis and Chadwick

Boseman were all recognized for their work. However, the counterpoint to that, and I think you're right, and I think you're onto something, but The Father is also a play and is staged like a play. And it has a slightly more complex conceit. And the way that the film is edited, I think, makes it a little bit more, I don't know, kind of definitionally cinematic. And it was recognized in Best Film Editing. But still, it is a play. And so if that is like the rationale rationale there's something else that is here and i don't

know if it's because those are you know one's a netflix movie and one's an amazon movie or i i'm not necessarily totally sure and you know you could say well maybe is it motivated by race but like films like judas and the black messiah were recognized this year so there is i think that was just the surprising thing because these films are really at the forefront amongst critical bodies amongst the golden globes amongst all kind of all the way down the line. We've seen these movies and I don't think either one of us thought that it was possible that they were going to be left out of Best Picture. Nevertheless, they were, which actually, and no disrespect to any of those films, but they felt sort of very not necessarily conventional, but sort of traditional and typically historical. They're about historical events. And so they feel like Academy fodder.

And so what we get in Best Picture is really a more odd set of films. Films like Sound of Metal and Promising Young Woman, these are not movies that are historically recognized in a category like Best Picture. So we'll get into that in a little bit. No Borat 2 in Best Picture as well. I'm not surprised by that. I thought if there was a year when something like that could happen,

it would have been this year. But the film was recognized for Best Adapted Screenplay and nine people were nominated in that category, which I think is a record. And also this movie was largely improvised.

So that is just a true perversity worthy of Borat 2. You mentioned no Sorkin for Best Director. Also no Regina King for Best Director, which is unfortunate though. I don't think necessarily that anybody thought that that was for sure going to happen.

You also mentioned no Delroy Lindo, which is just a huge bummer, but isn't shocking. I hope Delroy Lindo gets another chance to get a role like Paul from Defy Bloods because he's so wonderful in that. No Tom Hanks. Not really surprised by that one. No, except for the fact that Tom Hanks

is a national treasure. But, and has been overlooked a few times recently at the Academy Awards, but that's okay. He was not really in the conversation. I thought the way that News of the World was recognized was interesting because News of the World was clearly made because Paul Greengrass and Tom Hanks wanted to make a Western together. Movies like that don't happen if not for that.

And the film got four nominations. But Tom Hanks and Paul Greengrass were not recognized. And neither was Helena Zengel, who some thought could be recognized. She was the other person in the Best Supporting Actress category, aside from Jodie Foster, who was not recognized. And it's interesting, you know, the are we, do we not appreciate Tom Hanks enough conversation? I think basically continues on here. You know, the Best Actor nominee is like those nominees are great. But again, Tom Hanks was very good in a film.

And people were like, yeah, it's okay. He's Tom. We appreciate Tom Hanks enough. I do my part on this podcast. And I think like he's had, he's won a lot of Oscars and he's got a lot of nominations. It is funny how he always seems to be edged out. I think it indicates more of what our understanding of like a best actor performance is and how those races shake out. I think 10 years ago, he definitely would have been nominated. And I think it's nice in a way that it's slightly reconfiguring so that there is

more room for people. Hopefully, Tom Hanks will be back. I think he's still got a bright future. Yeah, yeah. He'll be okay. He beat COVID. Remember when he was the first human we knew? Yes, I do. It was very scary. I'm glad he's okay. I'm glad Rita's okay. Me too. Shout out to the Hanks family. So no Amy Adams here. Glenn Close was recognized for Hillbilly Elegy and Amy Adams was not, which is just frankly, that's great. Could you imagine if Amy Adams had won her Oscar for Hillbilly Elegy? It's not what you want. It is a huge relief. And once again, I'm trying to say those words as little as possible between now and the Oscars. So let's keep it moving.

Fair enough. Two documentaries that I think we both like that we talked about a bit on this pod, Boys State and Dick Johnson is Dead. Both were not recognized here. I thought Kyle Buchanan in the New York Times had a smart note that films like Boys State are typically actually not recognized by the documentary because they have kind of like a fizzy pop energy and that section of the branch doesn't necessarily go for these kind of breakout pop docs. Dick Johnson is Dead is a somewhat more esoteric kind of a film in terms of its structure and its approach. But those are two of my favorite movies of 2020. So I was bummed to not see those. I interpreted the Boy State omission as just no one has seen it because it's on Apple TV. That's definitely possible. I just thought that that was it. They just didn't

have the campaign behind it, and it just didn't have the awareness that it has with the two of us. Yeah. I mean, that was, I think, my second or third favorite movie of the year last year, so it's a real shame. Nevertheless, the doc category we'll get into in a moment is pretty good. No Jack Fincher for Mank, which is a pretty significant miss for Mank. And we can talk about its chances shortly, but I'm sure that that's upsetting for David Fincher that his father's script wasn't recognized here. Yeah. I mean, there's something slightly poetic about the layers of what that movie is about and its origin and then Jack not being recognized, but it would have been nice. It was a nice, tidy little story.

So now that we have looked at the snubs and looked at the surprises, what do you think are the narratives for the next six weeks of the awards race. Because it doesn't really feel like there's any bare-knuckled fight in front of us. There's no 1917 versus Parasite versus Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. This is a nice collection of films that people like. We've obviously been through a very difficult year worldwide with the pandemic. And movies have struggled in the face of the pandemic. But the Academy did okay. So what's the story?

That concerns me because there's nothing to be angry about. So people are just going to be like, why should we care? I mean, there's the narrative that's out in the world. And then there's a narrative that you and I can agree to and people on this show who listen to the show can agree to. And I think we can all create a space where we just like movies. And it's cool that some of these nice movies were recognized. And we believe in Steven Soderbergh to do something interesting with three hours of television. But we all know how the world works. We all certainly know how the internet works. And it's either I'm really angry about this, or why should I care about this? And so I do worry that the lack of controversy and just kind

of this slightly satisfying nature of these will lead a lot of people to be like, cool, okay, bye. I don't care. Yeah, it is possible. I mean, I think if people are interested in tuning in for history, there's a serious chance for history because as expected, two women were nominated for Best Director, Emerald Fennell and Chloe Zhao. Chloe Zhao, as you helpfully pointed out, is the first woman to receive four nominations in one year for Picture, Director, Adapted Screenplay, and Editing. It's unusual, I was reading recently, for someone who edited their own film to be recognized in that category and to win at the Oscars. So it'll be interesting to see with Nomadland having such a strong reputation heading into the race if Chloe Zhao doesn't just make history in picture or director, but in multiple categories. She could walk away. She could walk away with four Oscars in her hands, which would be pretty nuts. I mean, there's a short list of people that have four Oscars in the history of the Oscars, let alone taking home four in one night. So that would be exciting. I think it would be great. I think also if it

means, do you think more people have watched Nomadland since the Golden Globes? Have you been hearing more about Nomadland? I'm hearing more and more about it every day, you know, just in the streets and, you know, with my local FedEx guy. At the corner where you do all your performances. While I sing Husavik. No I'm not hearing about Nomadland. No I had a Zoom with my family yesterday and caught up with a bunch of people and there was not a single conversation

about the nuanced lyrical work of Chloe Zhao which is not to say that my family didn't like it. It's just it's not a movie that necessarily drives a conversation if you're not a cinephile. And so I think people are, I think the access to it on Hulu is helpful, but I don't know that it's necessarily, I don't know that it's necessarily the kind of thing

that people want to pick apart for six hours. You know what I mean? Well, I actually, this is my dad, who, as we all know, is a very singular human being. But I got a long email from my dad about Nomadland and his thoughts on it and how it handles its politics. And he really did want to engage with it. I think he thought it was beautiful and also,

and responded to it, but like also had a lot of issues in that response and like wanted to tough it out. It was great. That's why I love movies. But, you know, you got to stop using lyrical to describe this movie and everything else. That's like the. I want it to be scare quotes.

I know. I know. But I know. But we have to keep people interested. And as soon as you say lyrical, people are going to be like, well, I'm not watching that. And I'm not. There's nothing to argue about. And there actually is a really interesting conversation to be had about how it handles the America that it is portraying and the people that it's portraying and what is it trying to say and how does it say it and what people take away from it? Like I do actually think it's really interesting, but most,

if people just hear like, Oh, it's like a quiet film about people who live in their vans, then they're just not going to watch it. So, yeah, I mean, I think part of that is because one,

I'm generally, I try, I try to be allergic to ginned up controversies around films that are, that are Academy or nominated for academy awards in this case i would say the biggest ding that nomadland has received thus far is that it is somehow propagandist or excusing amazon because the film is you know portrays the logo and it obviously uses the the sort of gig economy and the workers that are seasonally employed by amazon as part of in a way to tell the story

about kind of what has happened to a generation, a population of Americans who become nomadic and who rely upon these companies that don't necessarily treat them fairly. And so while I think that there is fairness in that critique, that is like not at all what I came away from the film with. And I felt like the filmmakers were very conscious of the decisions that they were making around that and i did not feel like

they were letting corporations off the hook per se so as a as like a discussion point that one has not resonated with me though if you want to talk about the way that america has been scooped out completely in the way that you know, the nature of the industrialization of our country has been moved to other countries because of globalization. Sure, we could talk about that, but that isn't what resonated

for me with the movie either. What resonated for the movie with me is beautifully shot and has incredible performances and these non-professional actors telling their stories. That's what works for me. Totally.

And I agree with you. And I think ultimately it's a movie about loss and it's about personal loss and it is also about the loss of, That's what works for me. if you watch that movie and then don't feel like a like guilt the next time you click whatever on amazon then i like i don't know what to say to you but i do think it's really interesting this dialogue between people who really expect any film with any sort of politics in it to just lay out directly here is the moral of this story versus people who do respond to the like the nuances and the information contained within the film and start asking questions themselves. And it is a little bit a microcosm of the way that we talk about or receive film or really any art right now of like, is there a thesis statement that is

directly broadcast to you throughout the entire film like a you know audi commercial or is there is there room for interpretation and i do think that people are on the other side of that line right now and i think that's interesting but as soon as you say lyrical everyone's like whatever i'm just i'm clicking you make a good point i make a solemn oath to never use the word lyrical not just just on this podcast, but in my life ever again. Sure. Can we also give that to all book reviewers? Just cut it, guys, because you're doing a disservice. I'm never going to read the book. But if I give you lyrical, what are you giving me? What are we trading here? What word will

you never use? You get to pick. Will you never say music is important again? Sure. I hate music. I didn't watch the Grammys. So in that sense, it was music's biggest night and I was not a part of it. What was Amanda's biggest night? What did you do? My husband roasted a fish and that was really beautiful. And then I realized that I needed to get in bed early because I had to wake up at the crack of dawn in order to do this podcast with you.

So I watched 30 minutes of the 2005 Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice on Showtime and then took a melatonin and went to sleep. Wow. Just riveting stuff. That should have been nominated for best picture. That sounds like a barn burner of a night. Roasted fish and melatonin. The Amanda Dobbins story. Let's keep going. We mentioned that Thomas Vinterberg was recognized. That's an international filmmaker in the Best Director category. Fincher, of course, recognized in Best Director. He is kind of the master slot. We get a master, at least one every year.

And Indie Darling and Lee Isaac Chung. I was just really happy to see that many people were projecting him to be nominated, and he was nominated. Really love Minari. It's growing in estimation in my heart. It's so cool to see something like that. That really does feel like

a kind of post-moonlight. Like, these kinds of films are frankly adored by the Academy at this point. These kind of sensitive, thoughtful portrayals of families and of people.

You know, not just coming-of-age stories because coming-of-age stories have been recognized for many years by the Academy. But stories that we don't necessarily see told very often. Stories that are told with a lot of grace and craft.

You know, Isaac Chung is not a kid. You know, he's been making movies for the last 10 years. He knows more about film than most people who are going to be recognized on this night. So it was really cool just to see him get recognized here. And then Emerald Fennell. And she was very excited. Yeah.

She's doing some tweeting. Good tweets. I enjoyed tweeting. Good tweets. I enjoyed it. Good tweets. Promising Young Woman. How will we talk about Promising Young Woman and its five nominations for the next 40 days or so? Maybe we just won't talk about it very much. This is one of those things where if it doesn't win all of them, and we can talk about Carey Mulligan and best actress later

on but I think to me that's the only real opportunity for a win so if it's just one of these curiosities that got some nominations and happy to be there bugs me less um and I when we went back and revisited it I kind of understood more of its appeal. There is a lot there that they are trying and that is interesting and maybe that will actually stick in your head. Again, doesn't totally work for me. But if it doesn't actually win all five nominations, then I don't know. I can't get too mad about it.

Yeah, we'll see. As I mentioned last week, I'm very curious to see what shape this film takes in the consciousness as more people get a chance to see it. And like I said, I believe this week, more people will get a chance to see it because the price point will drop significantly on VOD. So six nominations for Judas and the Black Messiah. That was probably the most generally exciting thing about this. A couple of notable points about this. One, Ryan Coogler, who of course was significantly important to getting the film made in the first place by teaming up with Shaka King, is nominated for his first Oscar as a producer. And this strikes me as an evolutionary kind of Spielberg move.

Spielberg was very savvy early in his career, not just necessarily at making films, but at collaborating with people, at finding talent, at supporting his friends, at lifting other people up and giving them opportunities that he felt could make great films. And this seems like it would be really exciting. and Ryan Coogler is still very young, if he could have a kind of Spielberg-esque role in Hollywood, which is to say he doesn't just make great movies and crowd-pleasing movies that have something to say, but use his power and his influence to allow other people to make movies like that and to have those movies be recognized. So I see that as just like a generally great outcome of the Judas and the Black Messiah moment.

I'm really stoked about it. Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's nice to see that this movie's success is, you know, that the Academy is receiving it the same way that we did, essentially. Because especially without theaters and without kind of a normal release schedule or whatever it felt like a big i don't want to say like crowd pleasing because there is a lot of very difficult stuff in that film is electrifying though at times people responded to it yeah yes exactly um and

that you can imagine being in a theater and being like really moved by it and that you can imagine it being like a noisy film and i it is nice to see that others agree with that besides you know the two of us you know what's interesting about that too is that the film obviously debuted on hbo max a month ago and today it was removed from the service and it will go back fully into theaters. So obviously it's going to get a bump of some kind. Theaters are opening, frankly, across the country. I wonder if there's like business to be had for Judas and the Black Messiah in that respect. I honestly don't know. It was being advertised over the weekend on HBO Max as like three days left, two days left, one day left to check out Judas and the Black Messiah on the service.

What do you think about that? Do you think they'll stick to that? Meaning keeping it off the service or keeping it in theaters? Keeping it off the service. That's an interesting question. I don't know. I'm not sure what agreements they made in that respect because they have removed every single film that they've debuted there to create a new window of sorts. Yeah, I think that's true. But I think you could also probably make the argument

even to producers and everyone you have an agreement with of it's six weeks until the Oscars. People are voting. Awareness is good. We have this platform. Let us put our full weight behind it. Yeah, you'd think that would be beneficial ultimately to kind of continue to stoke conversation around this film.

And it's a little bit harder when people can't return to the film. We shall see. As mentioned, six noms for Minari, and also Steven Yeun was recognized here. First Asian-American lead performance ever recognized by the Academy. Steven Yeun, we've been talking about him for years on this show, talked about him in the movie Stars, 35 or under 35, over 35. He's great. This wasn't actually shocking. the fact that this wasn't shocking was also great you know what i mean

yes that it's just been fully embraced it's this is a really i just i love this movie and i think what's so nice about it is that it is so specific and personal but yet open to everybody if you just want to try it. And it really seems like it is also being like everyone is just opening their heart to it. And that's a pretty rare experience in 2021. So I hope more people get to see it as a result. I mean, that's one where I think everyone who has seen it is nuts about it. And then there are a lot of people who have yet to see it. What do you think about six nominations for Sound of Metal? I don't know. You'll have to explain that one to me. I think that this was a nice film, and I know that people are really, really into the Riz Ahmed performance. And it is, in a lot of ways, kind of like a sneakily traditional Oscar film.

And I know that it had a lot of online support pretty early. And I think that's what you can kind of explain to me. It does really seem like it got propelled via the forums into an Oscar nomination. Yeah, I don't know. I think you're right to identify that in some respects it is it is traditional because it's about a character engaged with a disability and working through that and also a portrait of an artist and of course like those are two different subcategories of movies that are frequently recognized at the Oscars so there there's that. There's 100% approval for the Riz performance.

People love him. They love him in this movie. It is, I would say, tonally and even structurally, though, fairly unusual for the Academy. Do you mean like literally tonally? Well, yes, but I think that that's one of the good things about it. I mean, I think that this film was recognized in Best Sound and the sound isn't extraordinary the way that it is sort of edited and arranged and managed and the way that you get closer to the character by experiencing what he's experiencing. And so it's been interesting. And maybe you're right. Maybe there has just been an ongoing engagement of support.

This movie debuted a long time ago. It debuted, I believe, in the 2019 Toronto Film Festival. And it has slowly built up steam across 18 months here. And I don't know if it's a beneficiary of a pandemic environment, but six nominations is a lot for a movie like this. I had a friend who is something of a movie nerd text me and say, listen, I know I'm a mark for this, but I really enjoyed this film. And he is a creative person of a certain age and a man and watched it and I think was moved by it. And that's honestly all it takes.

And if a lot of people experienced that, then that explains kind of the momentum behind it. You think Carey Mulligan is going to win for Best Actress? You do. Yeah. I do too. I do. Because it does seem, the five nominations seem like people are paying attention to that movie.

And that seems like the likeliest win for it. And I would be surprised if it got like that. That doesn't feel like the luckiest of locks to me in the actor category. I wouldn't be surprised by pretty much any of any win in that category. I think Vanessa Kirby would surprise me. I would be really shocked if Vanessa Kirby won for Pieces of a Woman. And that's no disrespect to Vanessa Kirby, who I like very much. And I wish the best.

But beyond that, it does seem more fluid. But just kind of seems like things are leaning that way. Yeah, I think it's an interesting category because you've got a handful of performances with many, many nominations for the films that they're attached to. You know, you've got films like Nomadland and Promising Young Woman. Then you've also got films like The United States vs. Billie Holiday and Pieces of a Woman, which only have their lone nominations are in this category, this Best Actress category. And then Viola in Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, who's not to be discounted pretty

much ever. She's one of the most beloved actors we have right now. So that one is a little bit unclear, but I'm leaning Carey Mulligan. I think just the kind of provocative and unlikely performance from her seems to be something that people are really responding to. So Mank, 10 nominations, the most recognized film in the bunch by far, and almost across the board

artisan recognition for its craft work. David Fincher was recognized.'s in best picture and it feels like it's dead in the water and has for three months what's up with mank as you have been asking yourself alone on the corner of your house for like since it came out i i don't know i'm with you i really like this film and it seems like people have a lot of capital R respect for it and almost no enthusiasm for it besides us and Chris Ryan and David Fincher and Ben Affleck, a club I'm proud to be in. So by the way, just thank you, Ben Affleck, for all of your roundtable contributions this year. Shafted this year by the Academy. When will Ben Affleck be recognized for his work at roundtables?

Maybe he'll just keep doing them for the next six weeks just to keep making the conversation. The guy needs a pod. Just get Ben Affleck a pod. He's welcome anytime here, though I would just be really freaked out and have to hide. But I don't know. It just doesn't seem like anyone's heart

is really in it on that one. And maybe that is the critique of Mank. It is a really intellectual film. I actually do think it gets to a place of real heart, but I'm also a cynical person who's not particularly in touch with my emotions. So I appreciate any small breakthrough that people can make on screen.

But yeah, it just doesn't seem like people are that jazzed about it. Yeah, it's interesting that two of Fincher's three recognitions for best director in his career have been for The Curious Case of Benjamin Button and Mank, two movies that are, at least in terms of subject matter, are unlikely for him and then not necessarily what we think of when we think of him. And obviously, Mank has been described as cold by some people the way that many fincher films are but it is much more heartful than seven or the social network so you know to me it's it's kind of a continued and i guess not necessarily indictment but clarification of the kinds of

films that the Academy responds to and quote unquote respects, to use your word. The capital R respect, I think is right, which is, oh, you made a movie about making movies. You made a movie about the artistic struggle. You made a movie about the difficulties of relationships and love and family. We will recognize you. You made a movie about serial killers. We will not recognize you. And I think about, you know, I thought about this a lot last year when Quentin Tarantino was nominated and ultimately did not win for Best Director. And I think about it with Fincher and a lot of the people who are kind of objects of obsession

on this show and when they're going to win and how they might not win ever. You know, we talk about Spike Lee in this category. We talk about Sofia Coppola in this category. You know, some of those Gen X filmmakers have been recognized. Soderbergh has been recognized, but not that many. Paul Thomas Anderson has not been recognized. You know, this whole wave, this whole, these hugely influential people on me, on my taste, on my point of view, on the things that I really emotionally respond to, the Academy is not into. And yet I continue to be obsessed with the Academy Awards and I can't figure it out. Well, number one, that's the definition of Gen X right there, right? Again, it would be very weird if they were all embraced by the institution. Then we would be like, who are you?

And how do we relate to you? And how do we relate to art? Because it is the defining characteristic of their approach to the world. And it definitely influenced the both of us. And we do a whole podcast about the Academy, but we also call it really dumb all the time. There's that tension between wanting recognition and also realizing how silly it is. Some of those are indicative of patterns and outlooks, and some of it is just getting unlucky. I mean, Tarantino lost to Bong Joon-ho.

Like, that's just once upon a time in Hollywood had to go up against Parasite. That sucks for once upon a time in Hollywood. But Parasite is, you know, a once in a lifetime achievement. So the Fincher one feels like a real, like there's a gap between the credit that they're willing to give him and the credit that you and I think that he deserves and a lot of it does really it feels a little bit because his films are quote maybe closed off is the the word which which I appreciate I love boundaries but that many people can't access and and also i think because of of subject matter and just i i don't know i i think people respect him as a craftsman but maybe not as a an emotions person and at the end of the day emotions always trump at the oscars

yeah and i feel like with no best film editing or original screenplay it's very possible that this movie is just the Irishman of 2021 and that it walks away with zero Oscars, which, you know, that seems weird for my favorite movie of the year, but nevertheless. What do you think about the way that the Academy recognized Netflix this year? So Netflix has the most nominations, but if you kind of look back at everything we just said in terms of who we think is going to win. And also, I mean, just the main conversation, 10 nominations, and it's not going to win a single one. Just like The Irishman, also a Netflix film, which didn't win a single Oscar. And I think we thought early lockdown, they're still doing the Oscars. Well, this is Netflix's year. They're finally

going to win. They have the machinery. They have the Oscar campaign like this has got to be it and like Netflix is not gonna win best picture again is Netflix ever gonna win best picture probably I don't know I don't know they had an absolutely stacked slate this year and they had a huge opportunity and they obviously did did dominate the field in terms of nominations um and they they didn't just develop and produce films. They went out and acquired films, like Pieces of a Woman in this race. And I agree. It does not seem like it's going to happen. And

now what you've got is Amazon nipping at their heels and Apple TV Plus got two nominations with Wolfwalkers and Best Sound for Greyhound. And then all of a sudden, Hulu is premiering Nomadland to America and Disney has a chance to win its first Oscar in many years and Soul debuted on Disney Plus and the landscape is different

now. Judas and the Black Messiah premiered on HBO Max. I got six nominations. Like, I don't know. Netflix is, of of course the absolute dominant streamer in the space and this was was a decade ahead of every other movie studio in this respect but i don't know if it's kind of residual hang-up anxiety around what netflix did to the industry or if it's just happens to be as you pointed out with once upon a time in hollywood parasite just kind

of the way the cookie crumbles this year. But I agree. It does not seem like this is going to be their year either. Between Roma, The Irishman, Marriage Story, which you and I just loved, even though I probably never had a chance, but whatever. I just want to remind everyone that Netflix did give us Marriage Story. Thank you, Netflix. And then Mank this year.

I mean, I don't know how you pick better movies. Those are amazing. They've done great. You know, they make a lot of junk that I have to like read about on Instagram that I don't care about, but they also just picked some of the most moving and beautiful and accomplished films

of the last five years. So I don't even know what I would tell them strategy-wise. Like, it just seems like it's not shaking out. And you do have to start to wonder whether there is just kind of some inherent, I guess I won't vote for this received favorite or I won't vote for the big guy because it's Netflix. The reason that doesn't wash with me is that the Academy is so big now that the Academy is pushing towards 9,000, 10,000 members. And many people in the industry and in the Academy are benefiting from the opportunities that Netflix provides. Netflix is by far the biggest and most

active studio in Hollywood. They make the most movies out of anybody. And that means a lot of people get paid by Netflix. So the idea of this like residual resentment, now certainly among like 80 year olds, I get that. But like, think about people like Chloe Zhao and Thomas Vinterberg being recognized in Best Director. Like the game changed. I agree with you. I wonder if it's less resentment and more,

really a sea change kind of in the way that voters think about Best Picture. And I think you talk a lot about how Moonlight changed everything in the Academy. And I think like it did and it didn't. But in terms of what voters think a Best Picture winner is and really also kind of that the smaller film, the underdog, this movie that we kind of have to advocate for should actually be the Best Picture winner. And that is what we should do with the Oscars. There's definitely a strain of that rising in the Academy. And if you're produced or distributed by Netflix, you don't need advocating. There's a giant company advocating for you big time. It's a good point. So I somewhat glibly pointed out that we felt like the nominations were good this year. They're certainly historic, but are they authentically good relative to what was out in the world? You know, there were film. We talked about Delroy. There were films like First Cow, which we hoped would get recognized 11 months ago, like Fools.

Never rarely, sometimes, always always there was this discussion in march april may of 2020 like this is the year for these smaller films to sneak in and in some ways minari sound of metal promising young woman these are these smaller films they're just not necessarily the ones that we had earmarked so it was this good was this good for the academy was this good for the state of film what's happened over the last year and the way the academy has recognized it what's happened over the last year is not good for the state of film for the academy for you and me for the world at large but you could come to my corner and hear me sing wuhan flu no i i think no it's not good but also we have to make it good like you we have to really

just change the narrative here within our little world and then we have to go out and really uh be obnoxious to other people about these are actually good films and it's cool that they're getting recognized and this is a silver lining in what was a crappy year. And if you haven't seen the movies, well, go watch them because now theaters are apparently opening. And so there are a multitude of ways to watch all of these movies. And what else are you going to do with your time? Do I think that these are the eight best films that were released last year objectively? Like, no, of course.

But that's never the case. Do I think within context, it's like a pretty good mix of films we really liked, films other people have liked and or seen on a relative scale, again, because, you know, the last year and also no one watches movies. Yeah, I do. And I think if it had been first cow never rarely sometimes always minari sound of metal promising young woman i just lyrical is the only thing that you could say and what about bad boys for life i mean that would be fun it

would be great to have will smith at the oscars i agree but he won't be for Bad Boys for Life anyway, though maybe he'll present. Let me ask you a personal question. When we're doing this podcast and I present a question with a fallacious premise, are you infuriated? Are you like, oh, thanks for teeing me up. I really appreciate it. What's your reaction? Just yelling no a lot, I guess. That's kind of the premise of this, right this that's inside of you as well that's how you're feeling inside yeah i think so i mean it's both intellectually i know that you're just constructing a podcast where you say something and i'm like sean you're a dummy and that's like part of the vibe at this point um but you're deconstructing in real time yeah but

but i think you do that because in part, you know that no matter how aware I am of the puppet strings and how intellectually I understand that you are setting things up for them to be debunked, I'll just get mad at you. I can't help myself. So that no does come from deep within my heart. Yeah.

Let's close with this. It has just seemed like for three months that Nomadland is going to win and might even sweep a whole bunch of Oscars. It's possible that, like we said, Chloe Zhao wins four Academy Awards. It's possible Frances McDormand is recognized for her work.

It's possible that this is the, I don't know, the 40-foot elephant in the room. And, you know, in the past we've thought, oh, maybe 1917 is dominant and can't be beat. Maybe it's on a collision course with history and, you know, Parasite and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood can take a back seat. Or, you know, there's no way the Academy

could really recognize Green Book. Is this actually going to happen? And then it does happen. But I don't really feel like any of the seven other films that are nominated in Best Picture have a chance to beat Nomadland. What do you think? but I don't really feel like any of the seven other films that are nominated in best picture have a chance to be Nomadland. What do you think? I think they do only in the sense that we've been surprised in several of the last years. I mean, we were surprised last year in a great way that

Parasite won. We were surprised when Moonlight Bean La La Land. I was still slightly surprised when Shape of Water won. And we were disappointed, but possibly not surprised that Green Book won. And even within that conversation, it was, will this sort of, quote, traditional, quote, Oscar Beatty movie win? Or can a spoiler, can something like Roma change what we understand about best picture and you know change how netflix interacts with the oscars so i don't really feel like nomadland is such a traditional movie that it feels really obvious i mean i agree with that you know and it is also like if minari wins we would be really surprised but it does seem like a lot of people like that movie and we do now have precedent for

like a smaller personal film with really wide appeal kind of surprising everyone at the Oscars so I think that I think probably Nomadland will win just because the Oscar season is so constrained. You know, there was a Brooks Barnes piece in the New York Times yesterday about campaigning. And how do you do a campaign season when there is, and how do you like kind of do the whole Oscar thing and get people involved when you can't do anything in person and you just got to like have a Zoom. And I recommend the piece just to learn how much various things uh cost during award season because it's a lot of money but it does seem like that is so constrained that whole apparatus was still going to be so limited this year that it's just kind of like nomadland i recognize that nomadland seems like the consensus. But we could be wrong. So pop quiz then.

Power rank them right now. From least likely to most likely to win. Best picture. Okay. Don't overthink it. Just dig in. Make least likely. Oh my God.

Least likely? Yeah. We just did a whole thing about this. Oh my God. Why are you getting so mad at me for telling you the truths that you just... No one's going to vote for it. You can vote for it. Let's get you a ballot.

What if we just turn this Oscar campaign into get you into the Academy? I think rather than get me a ballot, I should just be in charge of everything. What do you think? Just let me choose all the nominees. Choose all the winners. um shawnees can we do the shawnees this week you can do you want to do them right now would you like to hand them out we do them every week okay i'm like thanos this thanos that you know he's the winner of every award okay that's wow the shawnees suck good keep going okay is number eight what else make is number eight

then oh god i don't know the father number seven okay uh promising young woman six sound of metal five wait i had it in my head and i lost it judas and the black messiah 4 i honestly trial of chicago 7 3 minari 2 nomadland 1 do you because of the sorkin snub yeah and i just because minari is another movie that people are still just seeing and i and i think it's pretty irresistible. I agree with you. Wait, can you do your rankings? No, with the exception of maybe moving Mank to like sixth, I think you're really close. I mean, I think you have a good feel for it.

I think that there definitely will be things that we don't see coming that are going to unfurl in the next 40 days. Maybe we'll find out that, I don't know, Riz Ahmed saved a kitten from a tree, and then all of a sudden he surges in his race. You know, there's all kinds of ways to manipulate the settings here. Generally speaking, this is a solid set in the face of a pandemic. And I'm not going to pretend to have any faux outrage aside from my deep and eternal sadness for David Fincher. Okay, I accept it. I think that we just got to, if you're still listening to this podcast,

go see a movie you haven't seen, go tell a friend to see a movie that you haven't seen, and just spend the next 40 days practicing saying awards shows are really important, and I love watching them live. Speaking of movies that we've never seen, please stay tuned to the big picture because later this week we will be watching a movie we've never seen. I didn't know what you were throwing to and I was like, oh, is there a movie I haven't seen? There sure is. It's called Zack Snyder's Justice League, aka the Snyder Cut. And me and Amanda and Chris Ryan will be doing our first ever big picture live commentary. We will be watching this four hour

and one minute film together with our poor producer, Bobby Wagner, and talking about the film. And we encourage you to watch it with us, which is streaming on HBO Max on Friday. Amanda, are you excited for this Academy Award winning performance we are sure to give on that podcast? I'm excited to learn what Justice League is about. Well it's definitely um well it's about truth and we're going to find out about the truth.

Great and a society. Cool. It's truly about living in a society. This has been a society podcast. Thank you to Bobby Wagner and we'll see you later this week for the justice league