The Big Picture - The Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs of the 2025 Golden Globe Nominations. Plus: Richard Gere!

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Sean is joined by Joanna Robinson to give their immediate reactions to the Golden Globe nominations (1:00), discuss the evolution of the awards and how these nominations stack up against expectations, and opine about what these short lists mean for the Academy Awards. Then, Sean is joined by longtime movie star Richard Gere to discuss his work in Paul Schrader’s ‘Oh, Canada,’ the actor’s collaboration with Schrader over the decades, how he thinks about his career at this moment, and more (59:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Richard Gere and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down,

and who will never eat lunch in this town again. Follow The Town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or chicken snack wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue Meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. This episode is brought to you by RBC Student Banking. Here's an RBC student offer that turns a feel-good moment into a feel-great moment. Students, get $100 when you open a no-monthly-fee

RBC Advantage banking account, and we'll give another $100 to a charity of your choice. This great perk and more, only at RBC. Visit rbc.com slash get100give100. Conditions apply. Ends January 31, 2025. Complete offer eligibility criteria by March 31, 2025. Choose one of five eligible charities,

up to $500,000 in total contributions. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Golden Globes. My goodness, it is a beautiful Monday morning here in Juan Soto's America. Congratulations to him for signing with the New York Mets. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with Richard Gere.

That's right, the Richard Gere, one of the signature movie stars and actors, frankly, of the last half century. He has a new film directed by my beloved Paul Schrader. It's a reunion of the guys from American Gigolo.

It's an adaptation of the Russell Banks novel, For Gone. This is a beautiful movie about a guy remembering or maybe misremembering his past as he's being portrayed in a documentary. Fascinating film. Richard Gere, what can you say? Great interview. Insightful as always.

Dashing as always. Please stick around for our conversation. But first, something a little less dashing, though somewhat dashing, is the Golden Globe nominations. Always dashing, Joanna Robinson. Hey, Jo, how are you? Oh, hello. How are you? I'm thrilled to listen to your Richard Gere convo. He's also currently crushing it on the agency. It's Gere season, and I'm thrilled. It really is. I haven't had a chance to see the agency yet, but I look forward to it. Did the agency get any TV nominations at the Golden Globes? No. No, it's very sad.

We will not be discussing the TV nominations at the Golden Globes because I don't watch enough television to really understand what's going on there. But we will talk about the film nominations. And there were, gosh, there were a bundle of them. This is always a complicated conversation, Joanna. We'll talk about the perceived snubs. There's no such thing as a snub. We recognize that.

But we're going to use that term anyway to discuss these things. The surprises, the WTFs. WTFs is something that I have leaned on in the past at the Golden Globes. This year, maybe fewer than ever. Maybe the Golden Globes are changing a little bit. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think what you and I agree on based on me perusing your notes so far is that it's,

it's some of the same, uh, antics, uh, silly goosery that we've ever seen, uh, from the globes. And then there's some take a serious,

please take a seriously, please. So it's just like an interesting combination of like new globes and old globes. Uh, the old globes are not dead yet, uh, based on these nominations. Um,

yeah, I, I love how hard it is to guess what the Globes are going to do. That's actually, we've been talking, you know, checking in all season about how this is an unpredictable season and it is. And that's been a really fun part of it. We don't have any of these like foregone conclusions necessarily. Some are shaping up right now. But the Globes are always going to be the weirdest, you know, and, and, and odd in a way that, that like National Board of Review NBR isn't because that they seem like odd for odd sake in a lot of ways,

or just sort of defiantly odd, whereas the Golden Globes are politically odd. And that's even more interesting, I think, to talk about. Yeah, I agree with that. I think obviously there are a few things that make the Golden Globes a little bit different from the Academy Awards or the BAFTAs or any of the major voting bodies. One is that they delineate between drama

and musical or comedy. So you've got the option to nominate significantly more people both in that category and in the acting categories, the major acting categories where they also split. Then on top of that, you've got six nominations in these key categories and not five. So it's actually harder than ever for the Golden Globes

to quote unquote miss an obvious nomination. And yet, there are some misses here. Just to start the convo, I just want to go through the best drama and best musical or comedy, best film nominees. And then we'll get into what we think are the snubs and the surprises, and we can talk through each category where those exist. Sound good? Yeah, perfect. Okay, so four, best motion picture drama here are your six nominees. The Brutalist, A Complete Unknown, Conclave, Dune Part Two, Nickel Boys, and September 5. And in Best Motion Picture Musical or Comedy, you've got Anora,

Challengers, Emilia Perez, A Real Pain, The Substance, and Wicked. I wouldn't say that there are any stunning omissions from those lists. What do you think? Not stunning. I would say on a personal level, I'm sad to not see Sing Sing in here but Sing Sing is having a good couple weeks so I'm not despondent over it and we'll talk about some of the sort of trends of some of the misses that the Globes put forth this year but I love to hear you start this list

with as the chief architect of the Brutalist Hive like with you know hope and joy in your heart and then end it with wicked how are you feeling those two polls of these nominees. I feel fine. I mean, of course, Wicked was going to perform incredibly well at this award show because it's a musical. It's got an opportunity to fill out a lot of those categories. It's got great performances,

of course. So Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are both recognized. It's notably missing in director, which is a place where it was not missing at NBR, which Adam Neiman pointed out last week on the show. It won John M. Chu the award for best director. That's not the case here. I think it could be a favorite to win in this category at musical or comedy. As far as The Brutalist goes,

The Brutalist has had a kind of an up and down precursor season, especially in the last couple of weeks where it missed in some kind of big and obvious places. And Adrian Brody has missed in a couple of big and obvious places as well. And that's not the case here. The Brutalist has seven nominations, which is the second most to Amelia Perez's 10 nominations,

which is something I wanted to ask you about too. So 10 nominations for Amelia Perez, a movie that I think I'm pretty mixed on, pretty mixed to down on, although I think it does have some really cool performances and has been critically kind of pilloried for the last two months since it hit Netflix, but still was incredibly strong at the European Film Awards, hasn't been incredibly strong at a series of overseas awards bodies. And now the Globes, which is an international group, is over 300 international journalists, critics that vote on this sort of thing, have really rubber stamped

it as a true blue contender. Would you agree with that? Well, I don't know. I don't know that I agree. I think, you know, we have a lot of data coming out of the Gothams, New York film critics, the LA film critics, NBR. These are all sort of data points to put in the mix and to think about what they've been precursors of. I think we really have to more than ever before with the Globes, understand them as a international voting body. And that has always purportedly been what they were, but they weren't before because before you had to be based in L.A., even if you weren't, you know, originating from the States. And that is no longer the case. They've made all these efforts to really sort of broaden their membership.

And it's still, you know, a smallish voting body, but broaden their membership, make it significantly international. So there are some data points in the voting here that just really lead us towards you have to think about the way in which these things played abroad and that comes through with like stuff like the apprentice and some other things that feel like persona non grata the american states but doing well internationally and so for both the european film awards and the golden globes to anoint emilia perez does not mean to me that it's automatically going to bloom and flourish at the Oscars. But I don't, you know, it is also like the thing that the Globes can do and the thing that happens if you miss a Globe nomination is keep your film, your actor in the conversation. And so it is helpful for Amelia Perez to have this stat and is helpful for us to be talking about it significantly this morning. And that there are some,

you know, we'll talk about some actors who aren't here when it, and the fact that they aren't here probably means their campaign's kind of over based on, you know, some of the precursors and stuff like that. So I don't know that I'm ready to rubber stamp it as a major contender, but I do think we will see it for sure at the Oscars. Yeah, I think you're ultimately right. I think that there's no doubt that this is a day where some campaigns die. I don't know if it's a day where some campaigns really rise in stature. It's a little bit of a tricky thing.

I think the Globes, to your point about international, there are a number of other films here that have been recognized that suggest that's the case. One, The Substance did very, very well here. And we put The Substance at number 10 last time we power ranked Best Picture Films, which we'll do again next week after this information. I'm not sure I still believe that is getting in at number 10 relative to the praise for a complete unknown of late.

That being said, this doesn't hurt. This doesn't hurt at all to get two acting nominations, to get Coralie Farge in Best Director, and to get Best Comedy or Musical nomination. I mean, that's a huge haul for a strange French body horror movie. What do you think? I mean, completely.

I mean, and I hope Katie Rich is feeling pleased this morning because that was her insistence that we put it in. I think that it's the best news for Demi, right? And I think there were a lot of the school of thought leading up to this is that it would be Demi alone representing this movie through various things. It's the fact that she is surrounded by, you know, that Margaret Qualley is also here, that there's a larger sense of support just the way in which you see films absent from certain categories um makes you worried about its legs the substance uh grows stability here but i think it's the best news ultimately for demi and her possibility of sliding into a pretty competitive best actress race there isn't a lot of room in there and

there's like in a lot of these acting categories it seems like there are you like to say there's no such thing as a lock i would say that there are like four very strong contenders in a lot of these categories and then a mystery slot uh for a lot of them and demi is definitely flirting with that fifth slot so that's exciting let's break down the actor and actress races a little bit because there's something interesting that has um that the golden globes underlines i I think. In the actor race in particular, I think you find a heavy concentration

of probable nominees in the drama category. Whereas now I think it is potentially shifting towards a concentration of nominees in the actress category in musical or comedy. So this is kind of unusual for that category for that to be the case. So for actor, you've got Adrienne Brody in The Brutalist and Drama, Timothy Chalamet for Complete Unknown, Daniel Craig for Queer, Coleman Domingo for Sing Sing, Ralph Fiennes for Conclave. And

surprise, but I think a good surprise, Sebastian Stan, the first of his two nominations for The Apprentice, a film that, as you pointed out, probably going to do better with non-American voters for a variety of reasons. And I would say four and possibly even five of the future nominees are sitting right in that category. My gut tells me Daniel Craig is in right now, him being the potential fifth. What do you think? It's really interesting because nobody really likes that movie um but i can't disagree i mean brody timmy coleman domingo ray fines those four seem they seem pretty locked in yeah yeah and so the fifth is a question mark and like daniel craig

could certainly get in um and certainly i think it would feel more like an anointing of his body of work than anything else, because really people genuinely don't seem to enjoy queer that much or at least divisive. But Sebastian Stan, I mean, the problem for Sebastian Stan, and this is this is a embarrassment of riches, is like the split attention of campaign. If you can focus around a different man, like, because I really don't think The Apprentice is going to go, just nobody wants to touch it here in the United States. And that is evidenced by the fact that Sebastian Stan was cut out of the variety

actors on actors campaigning opportunity because nobody wanted to talk about Trump. You know, there's just like a lot of ways in which that is, you know, for better, for worse. And I actually think there are things to definitely discuss and regard in that movie. So I wouldn't want to not talk about it, but plenty of people don't want to talk about it. So if you can focus the campaign around a different man, a movie that I really, really enjoyed even more than The Apprentice, I think Sebastian has a good chance. And also one of those chances of you were

in i do you remember when sebastian stan was coming in the studio to talk to you and i was i was like asking you questions about you know sebastian stan is an interviewee and whether or not he liked to do press a lot and you said well i think he knows he's in two really good movies this year and that's that's true and so i would love to see i mean this isn't just me being like avengers build like i would love to see sebastian stan get nominated for't just me being like Avengers-filled. Like, I would love to see Sebastian Stan get nominated for his work this year. Yeah, I want to spend a little time, spend a little bit of time on him. And we can talk about the musical or comedy male actor race as well, because Stan is also there. I think that it's possible, not likely, but possible, that the best thing that ever happened to Sebastian Stan's Oscar chances is him being, quoteunquote unable, unable to book a companion in the Actors on Actors series that Variety does,

where no one was willing to sit down with him to talk about The Apprentice because they don't want to be associated with any kind of conversation about Donald Trump. Now, Sebastian Stan and I talked about Donald Trump quite a bit on this podcast when he came on the show. He was a great guest. I think he was a great guest for a variety of reasons. I think part of it was that he knew he had given two really strong performances, was really proud of the movies. He worked for years with Ali Abassi to get The Apprentice off the ground. He'd been attached to that movie for a very long time. And A Different Man, which he's nominated for in Musical or Comedy, which is a very dark comedy, borderline not a comedy. The Aaron Schimberg movie, which did just win Best Film at the

Gothams a week and a half ago, and I think is getting a little bit more attention now that it's available on VOD and I encourage people to watch it, is really like an exceptional example of what you can do with that Avengers coin.

You know, that you can get a film like that made, that you can take on a part like that. Like, to me, that is the perfect balance of if you use the franchise stuff to raise the water of your career, float on top of it with a movie like A Different Man. It's kind of how I feel. So I think that there's some goodwill towards him in that respect, too.

And I think Sebastian Stan, that has been a focus of his because he's not like unlike many of his counterparts. He's not even in his post Avengers era, right? Because he's still in the makes it Marvel. He's got to lead Thunderbolts, you know, like so he's not even in his post-Avengers era, right? Because he's still in the mix at Marvel. He's about to leave Thunderbolts. You know, like, so he's still doing it. But like, you know, you and I were talking about this when we talked about the cinematic classic Red One. We were like, what has Chris Evans done

with his Steve Rogers fuel? What has Downey done? Downey won an Oscar. So like, he's doing fine. But like, to think about what do these Avengers or Marvel stars do, I think for years now, Sebastian Stan has been sort of one of the most interesting people to watch in that regard. I fully agree.

The other nominees in this category, which is a really cool category of nominees, but I don't think one that you'll see too many Oscar nominations for, but it includes Jesse Eisenberg from A Real Pain, which we recently talked about. Hugh Grant for Heretic, which I just told you in a future episode, one of my favorite performances of the year.

Absolutely laugh out loud funny. Gabriel LaBelle for Saturday Night, the lone nomination for Saturday Night. We'll come back to that. Jesse Plemons, Your Beloved, My Beloved for Kinds of Kindness, a movie that 18 people have seen, but he is actually quite good in that film,

the anthology movie from Yorgos Lanthimos. And Glenn Powell for Hitman, which was long predicted, but congratulations to the homie Glenn Powell actually quite good in that film the anthology movie from uh from uh yorgos lanthimos and glenn powell for hitman which was long predicted but congratulations to the homie glenn powell for his golden globe nomination this is a tremendous globes this is the best of what the globes could be because there are i don't think there's anyone here where you're saying oh clearly this is just here so they can get i don't know hugh grant to make funny faces at the camera at the award ceremony i would argue there's there's some of that in some of these other categories but um this is great hugh grant should be honored for what he did in heretic i in that future episode that you just alluded to i i was highlighting gabriel labelle as like someone that

i i didn't really enjoy saturday night that much but i thought he was wonderful in it and i think his performance should be honored. Jesse Plemons is the real surprise. For me, he wasn't. I was scouring the predictions list, predicting the Golden Globes, as we mentioned. It's a very, very tricky thing to do. Some people got it pretty close, including the double Sebastian Stan nomination, which I was, I guess, emotionally and mentally prepared for.

But no one really had Plemons on the list and he's of course an award season kind of guy these days but Kinds of Kindness doesn't feel like it exists as a film so I saw a couple of people had it I want to say some folks at Next Best Picture had it like a couple of spots had it as I was perusing the list last night the thing that happened is in the old days Ryan Reynolds simply would have been nominated for Deadpool vs Wolverine or Deadpool and Wolverine I should say and many thought he would be nominated today

so you could make the case that the biggest snub of this Golden Globes race is poor Ryan Reynolds the most successful and richest smart machine in Hollywood and he didn't get in and so because he didn't get in

someone like Jesse Plemons or Gabriel LaBelle or Sebastian Stan for a different man he didn't get in. And so because he didn't get in someone like Jesse Plemons or Gabriel LaBelle or Sebastian Stan for a different man is able to get in a movie like a different man getting in over a movie like a big Marvel movie that has a lot of good jokes in it is a is a change for the Globes. It doesn't mean the Globes is fully good, but it is a new Globes. I think we'll just say this is new Globes and then we'll talk about what what feels like old Globes. Can you remind me why you don't feel like snubs, like why the concept of snubs doesn't exist for you? Well, snub implies intention. You know, snub is like a very purposeful choice.

And so it indicates that it's against someone rather than for someone else. And so I don't think people vote, especially in these circumstances, like against people as often. This isn't like these aren't like political elections i think it's actually more likely to have a snub loser in the academy awards when you're making the winner choice because you've got a list of people already that you're like i don't want that person um so at nominations time it's kind of a complicated terminology but it doesn't really it serves an elegant purpose for podcasting. act of filling out my ballot to like, it feels like the nominations ballot feels like you're in the middle of an ocean somewhere and you just don't, you can't even see shore. You don't even

know like what you're doing. And you're just like, I know I'm going to miss someone. Like I'm, I'm trying. And, and then, yeah, the act of voting is so easy because you're sort of like, oh, clearly it's, it's this one. You know what I've tried to do? I vote in the Producers Guild Awards. And when, and when I vote there, I basically just try to vote for my 10 favorite movies of the year for the feature category and just say like, look, this is what I say publicly

is my favorite thing. There's no reason for me to go against this. I'm just going to stick to it. It is one of the reasons why I try to get like to 350 movies a year though because I'm like, I really want to feel like I've seen, like I saw Flow over the weekend,

the Latvian animated film, which I absolutely loved and I hadn't seen in time for my end of the year episode. And it's so good. It's probably right outside of my top 10, but it's so good. And it's useful to have the totality of understanding when you're doing this stuff, because it can be daunting. You know, like we make fun of the people who vote on this stuff, but you really want to

feel like you've given it a solid and sincere effort every time you put names down. I think that in the last couple of years, I think this is true of the PGA as well. They've started, you know, instead of us getting physical screeners, which I would like literally physically sort around the house into like piles of priority and all this sort of stuff like that. And it's so onerous to, it's like environmentally unfriendly, onerous to your mail carrier, all this sort of stuff like that. So they've, they've eventually, and like,

I think this year fully moved onto like a digital screening platform. And it's so helpful to me to just like open the platform and just say like, all right, I haven't seen this one yet. What do I need to like take off the list? And I think I'm done, which is exciting.

I mean, actually I know I'm done because my ballots due tomorrow. So it actually, I know I'm done because my ballad's due tomorrow. So if I'm not done, then, you know, here we go. There's only one film that was nominated today that I haven't seen yet. And we can get to that when we get to the international race. Oh, yeah. Because I'm still filling in some gaps. Let's just talk quickly about actresses in the drama and musical or comedy category.

So best female actor in a motion picture drama is Pamela Anderson for The Last Showgirl, Angelina Jolie for Maria, Nicole Kidman for Baby Girl, Tilda Swinton for The Room Next Door, the lone nomination for The Room Next Door, I believe. Fernanda Torres for I'm Still Here, the Brazilian film, Kate Winslet for Lee.

And then for musical or comedy, Amy Adams for Night Bitch, a film that we spoke about at length on a future episode of this show. Cynthia Erivo for Wicked, Carlos Sofia Gascon for Amelia Perez, Mikey Madison for Onora, Demi Moore for The Substance,

and Zendaya for Challengers. So much like the male acting categories, it's possible that Cynthia Erivo, Carlos Sofia Gascon, Mikey Madison, and maybe even Demi Moore all get in at best actress. Now there's clearly some blood sport going on in drama here where you've got Angelina Jolie and Nicole Kidman, who there's a lot of passion for in both directions.

I wouldn't rule out Fernanda Torres or Kate Winslet here either. So this category feels like a bit of a knife fight at the moment. What do you think? I feel like Angelina Jolie and Pamela Anderson and Nicole Kidman to a certain degree. Because Baby Girl is a film I really loved. But like a lot of this feels like Old Globes to me. Angelina Jolie I think is most famously associated with the most ridiculous Old Globes move, which is nominating her for The Tourist. The Tourist, yes.

So like The Tourist is just infamous. So a lot of people felt like Angie was going to be in here sort of no matter what. Pamela Anderson being in here is also a very Globes-y, Old Globes-y kind of pick. Fernanda Torres, I'm still here, phenomenal film. Fernanda Torres, wonderful in it. And this is a real New globes critics friendly pick not just

an international friendly pick but a critics like the critics really seem to want fernando torres uh in the conversation and i i wouldn't disagree with them and then kate winslet uh as you and i have been like talking to katie rich a little bit uh you know off pod this is a this is a campaign uh boondoggle that has been happening uh this season do you want to talk about that at all yeah i mean lee is a film that premiered at the 2023 toronto international film festival it was acquired out of that festival by a much smaller distributor kate winslet is beloved it's directed by is ellen curris is the filmmaker. I think so. Long time cinematographer. And it's her feature directorial debut.

Kate Winslet gives kind of a classical academy bait performance as a wartime photographer. A glamorous sort of thing. Yeah. And it's a great cast. Notably, Andrea Risborough is in this film. It does feel like this campaign has a little bit of that energy to it. I think it has a lot of Andrea Riseborough and to Leslie energy is what most people have been comparing what Kate Winslet and the supporters of Kate Winslet in this film. Some of the same people are involved in this as we're involved in the Andrea Riceboro push. Though, if she were to get an Oscar nomination, unlike Andrea Riceboro, she would have this... They would be like, she was nominated for the Globes. So it's

not as out of nowhere the way that Andrea Riceboro being nominated for Two Leslie felt in that year. And Kate Winslet, I mean, obviously, like, Anna Rysborough also was, like, an actress so talented, such a chameleon that people don't, like, really remember that they've seen her in a million things already, whereas Kate Winslet is, you know, a minted, bona fide movie star. So, there's, like, slightly different circumstances here. I wouldn't begrudge her a nomination. It just feels, like, more political than anything else or more um attention economy than anything else for an editor is would would thrill me and then tilda swinton being here the room next door if tilda had not been nominated i would say the room next door is out of you know it had a really tough uh run the last couple weeks in the precursors it just felt like it was not

getting any of the attention that you would hope for this cast this director all of that sort of stuff but Tilda being here means that there's still some life in the old girl it's just it's just a flicker honestly you know in a movie that I really wanted to love but didn't really click with that yeah this is Almodovar's new movie that is coming out later this year um you know there's another name that isn't on this list of 12 that is considered one of the major snubs of the morning, which is Marianne Jean-Baptiste for Hard Truths. And she's won some precursors.

There's a strong sense that she'll, she could potentially even win BAFTA. And it is one of the best performances of the year. We, I've talked about it a couple of times. I saw it out of the New York Film Festival. Mike Lee has been able to get, deliver acting nominations for actors in the past. Not recognized here in favor of, you know, some other...

You know, Pamela Anderson over Marianne Jean-Baptiste is one of those things where it's like, the Pamela Anderson story is a great story. The Last Showgirl is really a film which has two nominations here that is really a cut below the new critically acclaimed Globes. And there's something kind of funky about this. And I'm not really sure, you know, there's four significant Black actors who are not recognized today. That is going to be a takeaway.

This is a common takeaway for, you know, decades, frankly, with awards bodies. But there are some standouts. Marianne Jean-Baptiste is one of them that we should talk through a little bit. In addition to them, there's also Anginella Taylor for Nickel Boys. There's Clarence Macklin for Sing Sing, which is a huge performance for me, something that I talked about a lot when Amanda and I talked about the

movie, and I talked about it in a future episode. And then Daniel Deadweiler for The Piano Lesson, which I also loved and loved her in it. So none of them are here. And I think they're all pretty significant quote-unquote snubs. Clarence Macklin and Daniel Deadweiler in particular, I feel like and loves her in it. So none of them are here. And I think they're all pretty significant quote unquote snubs. Clarence Macklin and Daniel Deadweiler in particular, I feel like should have a real chance at the Oscars. Absolutely. Like Daniel Deadweiler has been all over the place

as people like just, and she's wonderful in everything she does. But like she seems like, and like unlike in previous, a previous year when Daniel Deadweiler has been somewhat overlooked, she is really campaigning this year. So she's really going for it. That's great. Clarence Macklin, you know, Coleman Domingo's in here.

And that makes me thrilled. But like, it's bizarre to have Coleman Domingo without Clarence Macklin, especially given the narrative the last couple of weeks, you know, both Coleman Domingo and Clarence Macklin winning in New York, like, um, and, you know, um, my, uh, former colleague at Vanity Fair, uh, Richard Lawson was in the room at the Gothams and he was talking about, we love, we love to hear insight from the room and like sort of who are the people that are like a hit with the crowd. And it wasman and bingo and clarence macklin winning at the gothams was the most rousing uh reaction for the crowd and so i know that you and i had talked to a couple weeks ago about this idea of like the goodwill uh the good time goodwill you just want these people you just want to talk to these people you want to be around these people

this is true of like the parasite cast of the Parasite cast, of the CODA folks, of everywhere, where all this one folks, all of that. And I think I was going to say that Wicked had that, but I think it's Sing Sing that has it, that this cast or these particular artists are who people want to talk to. And so Clarence Macklin not being here, especially as representative of the non-professional actors in this film, is a huge miss for the clips. The last showgirl having more nominations than Sing Sing is not ideal. But I do think, I think it's fine. I don't think it's meaningfully affected.

I mean, Sing Sing, in some respects, is a very American story. And its lack of glamour around the series of either non-professional or non-feature film traditional actors might be working against it in the eyes of the globes. I don't know. It's hard, though, because on the other hand, they're nominating folks like Fernanda Torres who have very minimal visibility worldwide.

The Brazilian journalists and critics have been extremely passionate about the Walter Salas movie. I'm still here. And so there's been a really forceful campaign for that movie but there's just a sense of imbalance um there's also something really interesting related in director which i i don't know if i see this as the biggest surprise but it is one that could have a meaningful ripple effect the director's branch of the Academy is very high-minded, very auteur-driven.

Yeah, they love to have at least one European or non-American director in there, if not a couple. Yes, and so I think there had been a lot of speculation, and I think there is still speculation, that Rommel Ross, the Nickel Boys director, will fill one of those slots as a, you know, not a European filmmaker, but someone who's made something more a little bit more conventionally challenging. Rommel not nominated here. In addition to that, again, one of the biggest snubs, quote unquote, of the day is Denis Villeneuve not being nominated for Dune Part 2.

Dune Part 2 only got two nominations here today, which is very sad, probably even more sad for the fanboys. But that's us right uh aren't we the dune fanboys i mean i love dune i'm not i'm not stumping for dune to win best picture though you know what i mean like i know you're not i i i feel the same way about it that i feel about a lot of these kind of like unfinished stories i'm like it's a great science fiction movie it basically never had a chance to win and I never really thought about it from the beginning of the year you've been saying that and I was hopeful that you were wrong this is one of the cases where you were right

and that couldn't be clearer in the way that Doom Part 2 at the glows of all places Doom Part 2 should have performed much better than it did today so that's really tough I still think it could be in the 10 uh nominations for best picture definitely in a lot of the below the line stuff but i think you're right that the fact that this is a part two of a planned trilogy

means uh we'll have to wait and see and and i'm at the end of the day i'm i'm not optimistic about that because um doom part three is going to be probably quite challenging. So we'll see. The filmmakers who did get in, in Denise's stead, in Ramel Ross's stead, in John M. Chu's stead, are Pyle Kapadia, the filmmaker behind All We Imagine is Light, which is a film that somewhat controversially was not selected by India to be the representative for international feature for the Academy Awards, but has been one of the most acclaimed movies of the year. I know Bobby Wagner, our producer, it's one of his favorite films of the year.

And she's been nominated here, which is a cool pick. And her nomination, as well as the nomination of Coralie Farge for The Substance, does something very interesting, which is that a month ago, I started thinking hard about Best Director and I was like, oh, The Boys Club is back. This is really, this is very, this is a male crew here with, you know, Brady Corbett and Rommel and Sean Baker and Jacques Audiard and all the people who are contending for this award. This could upend that. I don't know. What do you make of Pyle Kapadia and Coralie Farge getting in here?

Happy. I mean, like when, once again, this is maybe the benefit. Should every category be six nominees or 10? You know what I mean? Why not 15? Why not? But yeah, this is the benefit

of having six places here. Rommel Ross is really surprising to me because I think if you look at the precursors of the last couple of weeks, Nickel Boys is one of the biggest sort of memento builders around cinematography, around direction.

You know, it's less of a getting acknowledged for its performance as film and more for the technical challenges, for the ambition of it. And so Rommd Ross missing here was very surprising to me, though I shouldn't be surprised it feels very Old Globes for them to miss on that front. That being said, I mean, Coralie Farge and Paolo Capaldi, and especially Capaldi as a narrative nominee, you just mentioned this idea.

It's not just that the film wasn't picked to represent India. It's that Kapadia, as a filmmaker, has been unfriendly to the Indian government. And so it's just sort of this, you know, but this was, you know, honored, has been honored in Europe. But the reasons it wasn't picked by India feel unclean. And so this then becomes an underdog, right? Like, so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is a campaign for this movie for the Oscars for screenplay, for director,

for best picture. Right, because it can't get in international feature. Exactly. And there had been some expectation that Emiliaerez was going to steamroll its way to international feature i'm not so sure that's true anymore when you see i don't think that's true at all you know you see a movie like i'm still here doing really well here today um there's there's there's a lot of opportunity here so actually let's talk about international feature very very quickly um so here are the nominees all we imagine is light kapadia's film amelia perez

the girl with the needle i'm still here the Here, The Seed of the Sacred Fig, and Vermiglio, which is the movie that I have not yet seen. The Seed of the Sacred Fig is doing very well. It really is. Did you like it? In a lot of different places. Not really. Okay.

It's divisive. It really is. Some people think it's a masterpiece and some people are not feeling it at all whatsoever. But it is definitely the international feature of the last few weeks that has been building up ahead of steam. Yeah. Mohamed Rasseloff, the director, won Best Director at the Los Angeles Film Critics Awards over the weekend. And, you know, the critics' bodies proceed with caution when trying to make your Oscar predictions against those things. But that's a big boost.

That's a big boost of visibility. And See the Secret Fig, you know, I thought narratively just had a lot of problems. proceed with caution when trying to make your Oscar predictions against those things but that's a big boost that's a big boost of visibility and see the secret fake you know I thought narratively just had a lot of problems pacing wise I feel similarly about a few of the

international films you know all we imagine is the latest movie that didn't work as well for me also and I found there's a kind of like there was a

I don't know what the right word I'm trying to think of is. There's just a pacing issue on some of these movies that didn't click for me. And I like evil does not exist as a movie for me that I would love to see in the, in these spaces. And in this discussion just seems like they were like, ah, we, we acknowledge Tamaguchi on drive my car.

We're good here. We don't need to get into that, into that film anymore. But, um, I still haven't seen every film in this category yet. So it's a little bit hard to say the 10 when the 10 nominations for amelia perez makes me think that this film is sitting pretty in that race in this award show what do you think um i loved evil does not exist um i thought that was an incredible film with a really leaves you unsettled in a really nourishing way. If I were to pick one, an international feature that I would most want to win with my heart, I would say I'm Still Here. I really, really, really loved that film.

Amelia Perez is so interesting because if you had asked me before the Globes nominations came out based on what has been happening around, I would say it's not going to win an international feature. But perhaps now, I don't know. I have some questions. But I'm Still Here is one that I really hope people get a chance to see because phenomenal film, really. Where should we go next? Should we go to...

We've hit Sebastian Stan. Supporting? Supporting. Okay, We've hit Sebastian Stan. Supporting. Supporting. Okay. Let's talk about the supporting actors races. Now, there's only 12 here. Six for the women and six for the men. For the women, the nominees are Selena Gomez for Amelia Perez, Ariana Grande for Wicked,

Felicity Jones for The Brutalist, Margaret Qualley for The Substance, Isabella Rossellini for Conclave, and Zoe Saldana for Amelia Perez. As I mentioned, Daniel, Deadweiler not here, Anjanue Ellis-Taylor not here. Who else is not here?

Anybody else that I'm forgetting? Those are the main ones that feel overlooked to me and in their place we have Margaret Qualley

and Selena Gomez. Selena Gomez? Joanna? Selena Gomez? place we have margaret qually and selena gomez selena gomez um joanna selena gomez i just really did not like her performance in this movie at all it's not great it's not good zoe saldania great i mean she's great i loved her she's great she should be in there she might even win it and i wouldn't be mad about it but and then isab Isabel Rossellini who has, you know, a minuscule amount of screen time in Conclave, but is, is, you know, you know how they like to say she's running,

she's running. Isabel Rossellini is running and she's running on the, on the energy of, um, I heard someone compare it to like the Jamie Lee Curtis sort of like legacy Nepo baby sort of thing. It's like Isabel Rossellini is film history. The way that,

you know, Margaret Qualley is to a certain degree. So, you know, it's like isabella rossellini is film history the way that you know margaret qualley is to a certain degree so you know it's just like um it seems silly at this point to call isabella rossellini a nepo baby that's not really how i think about her at all but when you think about isabella rossellini you think about cinema old hollywood legacy history so yeah and then she's just like yucking it up on fallon as well you know what i mean like she's just she's just making the whole entire uh circuit so yeah yeah the thing is she's not a nepo baby she's an incredible ambassador for movie history um her mom is ingrid bergman her dad is roberto rossellini she has appeared in great films by david lynch she she was married to martin scorsese like she is i meant in the same way that that people were calling even though she is not jamie

lee curtis a nepo baby and as like the globes especially like the globes in the same way that people were calling even though she is not Jamie Lee Curtis in Neppo Baby. And especially the Globes in the way that they have in their history centered the children of famous people as part of their ceremony. That's a great point. No, I would never call Isabella Rossellini. She's a legend. Legend. How familiar slash in love with her sort of like sex series that she did for, what was it, like the Independent Channel? I think you can find it on the Criterion Channel right now, actually. I mean, that's cinema to me. I think that's the thing is that she's kind of a fun hang. And so if you're a fun hang at all these events, you know, she's got a lot of opinions. I stayed in, I want to say it was Brookhaven on Long Island in an Airbnb a couple of years ago and was driving around. And I learned that Isabella Rossellini has lived there for like decades and is sort of like the matriarch of the town, which I didn't realize. And she's like, you know, see her at the farmer's market every weekend and just a very chill lady who's been hanging out in my home island for some time.

I'm a big fan of hers. I hope she does well. She's in seven minutes of Conclave. Saoirse Ronan, for example, is in quite a bit of Blitz and she was snubbed in that category. She was also snubbed for the Outrun in Actress. No Saoirse Ronan. Is Saoirse Ronan's awards trail dead?

Dead, yes. It's dead. It's dead. It's dead. I don't think of the blitz. I mean, blitz is a bit of a snub, I suppose. Outrun is the one where, like, I think people are really optimistic about that. But the fact that she's not here at all is a tough one for her.

Not a great sign. Especially Isabella Rossellini in Conclave. And again, you don't care about category fraud and supporting i kind of do so um i applaud like a true true true supporting and like she's barely not only is she barely in the movie but for a lot of that movie she's just sort of like glowering and glaring rather than actually talking yeah but she's there uh you know and that matters Tucci didn't get nominated but Isabella Rossellini did so here we are

let's talk about supporting actor here are the nominees Yura Borosov for Onora I know one you're very excited about Kieran Culkin

for A Real Pain speaking of category fraud Edward Norton for A Complete Unknown Guy Pearce for The Brutalist my guy Jeremy Strong

The Apprentice and Denzel Washington for Gladiator 2. Mixed bag here, fun category. A lot of guys having a grand old time. A lot of guys doing accents and voices and mingling around, chewing up scenery. Yeah, Edward Norton sure is playing that banjo in A Complete Unknown.

Did you, okay, have you heard? I'm working on my Edward Norton as Pete Seeger voice and I think I'm going to break it out when I do the complete unknown episode. Oh, I can't wait. But I got to rewatch the trailer a few more times

because the voice he's doing is kind of adorable, honestly. Oh, it's very cute in a shucks sort of way. I'm very like an Edward Norton demeanor sort of thing. But like, have you heard

as i did james bengold compare a complete unknown to uh amadeus um i haven't i i think you can make a comparison in that i don't know how how what it is allegedly our salieri and that is um just I want everyone to just think about that uh when they watch that movie a movie I really liked yeah I liked it I mean god it's a little hard to not spoil things but I think that there's like a bit of an an over emphasis on the perception of like why not me around Bob Dylan? Which I think is wrong. I think it's like slightly mischaracterized. It's one of the only things where I was like, this doesn't feel right to me,

but I'll save that for when we talk about the movie. I haven't read, okay, I'm going to stop trying to podcast about A Complete Unknown with you, but I want to ask really quickly, have you read the book that it's based on? The Elijah Wald book, yeah. Yeah.

And do you think that's part of the book as well, or do you think that's like a film? It well or do you think that's like a it is but the thing is that like the movie has clearly been that Jay Cox wrote the script right and then James Mangold rewrote the script we wrote it and in rewriting the script I think clearly put in a lot more of the Susie Rotolo stand

in that Elle Fanning plays and emphasize Joan Baez a little bit more in the kind of tempestuous nature of their relationship. And so in doing so, you, I think kind of mangle a little bit of the like Alan Lomax and Pete Seeger versus the electric guys,

you know, like anyway, I'll get to it when I talk about it next. Here's what I know. That podcast is that episode. The big pick is going to be a must listen. They all are, obviously, but... It's nice of you to say. I probably won't be having a meltdown, is the

thing. I was expecting a full-blown maybe we have to wrap this show up because I can't hold it together kind of situation. Like you said, it's pretty good. I liked it. I liked it a lot. I love that Timmy's in here for it. My guy, Yerborsov for an aura. This feels like, I feel like he's going to get nominated. My guy, Yerborsov for an aura.

This feels like, I feel like he's going to get nominated. It feels like it. For an Oscar. It does. Especially Tucci going out here, I think is somebody who that is his spot. And I don't know.

It's interesting. I think Tucci's fine. I've been saying for a few weeks now that I think Tucci was missing one more kind of whiz bang scene where he raises his voice a little bit. For the real. But tell me about Conclave.

Like, where do you think Conclave sits now? Because Edward Berger got recognized for Best Director here. You've got, I think we have Volker Bertelsmann

got the score nomination. It's obviously in Best Drama right now. Conclave is the movie that everyone thinks is kind of like sitting in fourth place but could win.

What do you think? I don't think it can win. I think Rafe's going to get nominated. I think it's definitely nominated for Best Picture. I think its best hope is screenplay. And I'm not even sure that that's going to happen. But I think you could see it at winning the SAG Ensemble Award. You know what I mean? I can see it popping up around, but I don't think it's as hot in Best Picture as some people are rating it.

I loved that movie. I really liked it. Actually, I wouldn't say I really, really liked it, but I don't know anyone who loved it. Do you think, is the thinking that enough people really, really liked it that in sort of a ranked ballot, it would emerge. I do. Yeah, I think Amelia Perez is divisive. I think Wicked is divisive. I think The Brutalist is divisive.

I think Conclave is not really that divisive. See, I feel like- Everybody's just like, this movie's good. Yes, meatball down the middle of Conclave, but I feel like Anora has that sort of everybody likes it spot locked. I agree. I've kind of been holding my water on that because I feel like that Nora has that sort of everybody likes it spot locked. I agree. I've kind of been holding my water on that because I feel like that can be the last part of this discussion.

But the Conclave screenplay nomination here is interesting because that's the only real adaptation. Everything else here is an original. And so when you only have one screenplay category as the Globes do and six nominees to put conclave there is notable i'll say and i so i think you're right that peter strawn's adaptation of the novel could do very well at the academy awards i think it's also just you know i heard a lot of people in watching it and talking to people who had seen it who work at the industry sort of like sorkin's name keeps coming up as like people thinking of it as like sorkin-esque uh in a way and and they mean it as a compliment and sort of like so when you think of like sort of a dialogue rich some people think that screenplay means as is the case with editing as

the case with sound the most the most talking the most sound the most uh you know editing and so i can really see conclave getting uh getting that award okay let's talk about box office in relationship to this isn't amelia paris and adopted because it's based on technically yes yes okay you know it is based on an opera that i wrote that is based on another opera um but it is more original i would would say, than Conclave. True. Okay. So,

two things. One, in terms of box office, you've got... Wait, wait. Can I just say one last thing about your guy, Guy Pearce? Yes.

Please do not rob me of an opportunity to talk to you about the Brutalist. Please speak about him. I'm 100% rooting for him, even though I don't think he's going to have a chance to win this category.

I know and I've been really happy for you in terms of like the brutalist's rise. The brutalist has emerged as this sort of like if you care about cinema it will be the brutalist.

Are you saying that's my fault? Not fault. You're a thought leader, Sean. I am but a scoutmaster to the brutalist boys. You know? I am but a simple noble man teaching lessons of great cinema um and i love that for you guy pierce adrian brody and the brutalists have been having like a really steady time yeah guy pierce has actually not been popping up the way that i think a lot of us expected him to

he hasn't really been winning critics prizes you, that's usually where you want to see. Yeah. He really needed this. Like Kieran, it feels like a foregone conclusion that Kieran Culkin is going to win this category. And I know you and I talked about that several weeks ago. But Guy Pearce needed something like this to keep his name in the conversation. So I'm happy because I would love to see him nominated for this. I'm very curious because, you know, just most people have not seen The Brutalist yet, just like they haven't seen Nickel Boys. But The Brutalist, I think, is the last big movie that is more or less unseen that rides on its performances in a big way.

That's a good point. And in all likelihood, all three of those actors are going to be nominated at the Academy Awards, Felicity Jones and Adrian brody and guy pierce and so you know could there be a late wave for some of those performers potentially i'll say felicity jones the first time i watched the movie i was a little bit mixed on what she did and then the second time i was fully dragged over and i yeah and i really i love that character and hearing I think Brady Corbett and Mona Fassfold like writing that movie together you can feel the dynamic of like the great man and the woman that supports him and the way that they're trying to kind of support that idea and

upend that idea at the same time so I wonder as more people see it if the acting will get a little bit of a boost in that category in those categories you know you have to wait a bit to get to felicity jones in that film and um i was worried when she showed up that she was just going to be you know the wife character and that's they definitely complicated that so i appreciate that um but yeah guy pierce being here is is wonderful news and my guy you're a bore is off keep on keep it on i'm happy for you. I'm happy for him. He's wonderful in that movie. Okay, let's talk about Box Office. Because one thing that happened that's interesting to me is that Box Office doesn't maybe matter as much for these nominations.

Dune, Wicked, and Gladiator 2 combined only managed eight nominations. And that's fairly unusual given the context here. They have since, you you know in the last couple years added the box office achievement award um this is as with all box office achievement awards extremely stupid but i'm going to read the nominees the nominees are alien romulus beetlejuice beetlejuice deadpool and wolverine gladiator 2 inside out 2 twisters wicked the wild robot um so here's two things that happened here moana 2 is already the fifth highest grossing Gladiator 2, Inside Out 2, Twisters, Wicked, The Wild Robot. So here's two things that happened here.

Moana 2 is already the fifth highest grossing movie of the year. Internationally, worldwide, not nominated. Dune Part 2, also among the top 10, not here. Why is that? Dune Part 2 not being here is astonishing. I had to go look up what Alien Romulus made because that was the one in here that I was quite surprised by. It did quite well internationally. It is the second highest grossing alien film. So just behind Prometheus. So I can't fault it. But

this is the one where when you look at people's predictions, they did have Beetlejuice Beetlejuice on here. This was expected. Alien Romulus, I didn't think was really high up on people's expectations for here because I think everyone assumed that Dune 2 would be in here. It's really wild that it isn't. This is such a weird category because, you know, it is of course trying to chase that sort of like, hmm, popular, populist, popular vote. Uh, let's let Twitter vote on, uh, this sort of ill-advised boondoggles that a lot of awards bodies have been attempting. And this is some S like really esoteric sort of blend of it made a lot of money and we think it has cinematic value. Where the fuck is Venom three, Joanna? That's what I want to know.

I don't know. Maybe they are hoping he'll dance again. It's his last dance. Are we not willing to recognize him? Return of the King style. Um, It's his last dance. Are we not willing to recognize him? Return of the King style? I know you think that movie is trash. It is trash. But I do appreciate the bit.

Well, I mean, box office achievement is such a stupid idea for a variety of reasons. But for example, one of the amazing box office stories of 2024 is The Substance. The Substance making 50 some odd million dollars in America. And like more than that overseas, that's just remarkable that that happened. I think it should be less like, cause there is a, I forget what the number is,

but there is like a benchmark of how much it has to make. But I think it should be that the, the, you know, especially like, you know, something like the brutalist too, even not,

not that I need the brutalist in every category, but like, again, that hasn't been released yet. So we don't know, but that's a, that's a deceptively tiny budget on that film. So the,

I think that sort of like the gap between budget and box office is one I would love to see rewarded. That sounds like a fascinating thing to chase versus. Do you have paranormal activity? Yeah, absolutely. But Deadpool and Wolverine is so, I guess you can have Ryan Reynolds Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman show up

and say, I'm sorry, Blake Lively, you're not getting a Globe nomination, but maybe you'll show up in your Lady Deadpool vibe. You know, we'll see. It's really tough. We'll see. All right, let's try to wrap this up. Give me your big winners and big losers of this morning.

Okay, so big winners. i think the biggest winner is uh sebastian stan i agree i'm gonna i'm gonna give to seb and i'm gonna hope that that whoever is helping him run his various campaigns we sort of like drill down on uh on what we want to focus on um emilia pera's challengers we haven't talked about it a ton but like Zendaya getting in here wonderful stuff four nominations I'm tempted to say Zendaya's in here in the same way that like

Selena and Ari and like all this sort of stuff is in here but actually she's great in that movie so I will take it um challengers which has been absent from the conversation it's just been sort of uh shrinking and shrinking shrinking in people's memory and so just this keeping it alive is great news for Challengers people still really like it everyone likes it I don't know if it's because

you know Luca has a movie that's out right now, plus Amazon, MGM has thrown their way behind Nickel Boys, and so there's maybe not, or there's a sense that it's just a frivolous film, and so it's not serious, but like, I don't know, there's plenty of frivolity across the Best Picture race this year.

So I just, I don't know. I went on Katie's show like three months ago, and I was like, I'm not writing off challengers. I think that there is a universe in which you could get in now. There's currently I think the relative success of a complete unknown Plus sing sing surging back makes it very hard for a movie like this to get in but you never know you never know um I I mean, where would you most like to see challengers win? I mean I think it could win in score

and that would be a very justified win and I love the Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross score and I think it is like I don't want to say a step forward in movie score but it's like it is a way to kind of contemporaneous contemporize what scores are you know in the way that written instrumental music works in mainstream movie making are you know in the way that written instrumental music works in mainstream

movie making because you know you think score and you just think like alan sylvestre you know you think thomas newman you think even han zimmer who has some aspects of kind of pushing the ball forward right instrument instrumentally it still is like john williams and Max Steiner and the whole history of orchestral music supporting film. And using club music as a score of a movie has been done before. But in this context is relatively new to me. And so I would love to see something like that happen. I think especially in a sports movie like this, like a, you know, a sexy sports movie like this and i think that the challenger score is so good and does exactly what i think the saturday night score thinks it's doing with love and respect to jean

baptiste but like that score actually really did not work for me it was distracting whereas challengers score i think is enhancing so um yeah challengers let's go um yeah so those are my biggest winners i would say and then we mentioned the Brutalist that did well today obviously and Enora I think basically held surf you know

and that's really what it needs to do I think it's trying to not overshoot too soon right you know we've got

two and a half full months of this left and it's here in best picture it's here in director it's here in actress it's here in supporting actor

it's here in screenplay like it's kind in Director. It's here in Actress. It's here in Supporting Actor. It's here in Screenplay. Like, it's kind of where it needs to be. Would you say A24 is a big winner today? I mean, it's gotten nominations here for The Brutalist, for Sing Sing, for Queer. What am I forgetting? Heretic. And Heretic, of course.

Baby Girl. And Baby Girl. Yeah, I mean, but, you know, Newsflash. A different man. Aash knows how to run the awards game you know like yeah but like great at this i think the way that the brutalist and anora are sort of sitting at the top usually it's 824 against 824 against something else i don't know why i say 824 i just sometimes do but like against something else that feels bigger glossier but this is like the brutalist versus anora year i mean imagine if anora was an a24 movie where there's a universe in which that could have happened you know sean baker's last movie was an a24 movie thank you thank you thank you

yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's that's not the case but regardless like those kinds of studios are very nimble in this environment you know know, The Substance is a movie movie and movies putting all of their energy behind it because they can. They don't have another movie to put their energy behind. So I don't know. And also, frankly, those movies have a lot to gain in terms of box office and VOD purchase

that some bigger movies maybe don't have as much. I don't know. We'll see. We'll have to keep a close watch on a couple of movies that, you know, Wicked is in the midst of its, you know,

huge peaking moment or maybe it's not peaking. You know, maybe this is an extended run. It's doing incredibly well at the domestic box office, not super well overseas.

And I don't know if there's any ramifications on that with the Oscar race. I'm curious about Sing Sing because there is this, there was this question like, what are they doing with Sing Sing?

They dropped it in August. Why would they drop it in August? And they're re-releasing it on, is it the day that the Oscar nominations are coming out? Yeah, whatever January date that is. That's the strategy and that's fascinating to me.

I don't think it's going to really matter with the box office. I think it's all about what you said, which is getting people either in the room with them or just getting them to show, like fire up the Academy portal and watch it. And if they watch it, they're going to feel just like we did,

which is just like, it's just a great movie. It just makes you feel good. It's moving. The performances are spectacular. It's just a good, good film. And that goes a long way sometimes, especially in a race with such an unsettled crop. Yeah.

I want to shout out one last loser, if I may. Please. Which is, let's pay our respects to We Live in Time. If Andrew Garfield and Florence Pugh

weren't going to get nominated, the Globes are not going to get nominated anywhere, and I don't think this film is going to get nominated anywhere.

It's a film I quite enjoyed. I did as well. Fairly well. I was moved, and that's the one A24 loser, I guess, in this race. You did point out that we've got Ariana versus Selena Gomez coming.

You feeling excited about that? I just felt, I feel like Amanda would have said it, so I thought I should say it to honor her. And also Miley is in the mix here with an original song. How do we get Sabrina Carpenter in here? Can we get Olivia Rodrigo nominated somehow? What is Taylor doing? Yeah, what is Taylor doing yeah what is she doing the air store great point she's got some

time you know she was nominated last year for box office achievement for her for the air store yeah yeah which is cinema right that's cinema definitely definitely Joanna thank you so much thanks for having

me we're we're we're coming back to talk about the Globes you'll be back you'll do some predictions with me at the beginning of January and then we'll cover the show. Who's hosting the show? I forget.

Nikki Glaser. Oh, great. I love Nikki Glaser. How wonderful. She's so funny. Oh, that's actually great news. I'm actually, I'm really excited to watch it.

She's very, very mean in the best way possible. So I hope that plays out well. Joanna, thank you so much. I'm going to throw to Richard Gere now. Can you believe that? Wow. Wild times. Thanks, Joanna. Let's go to my conversation now with Richard Gere. The great Richard Gere is here. Oh, the great. Richard, thank you for doing this.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is one of my first podcasts. I think it might be. Congratulations. I'm honored that this would be the one. This is number one. When I saw O Canada, I was wondering, have you and Paul Schrader been in touch over the years since you worked together so many years ago? Yeah, we talk once in a while, and he's always writing, so there's always an idea there.

And we run into each other. Actually, before we made this film, I ran into him. He was being feted for one of his films, which was terrific. It was either his last film before this or the one before that, I forget. And, you know, we started kind of talking again. Then this script came. And I didn't know the book. And Russell Banks, obviously, is an author that almost everyone has read something of

Russell's work. And his books have made terrific films. Paul made one from one of his books? Yeah. He made a terrific one. It's one of my favorite of his. And, um, so anyhow, Paul had written a really wonderful script for me. It was a no brainer.

It was, um, my, my dad had passed away just before he sent me the script and he was one month shy of, of 101. Wow. And he was one month shy of 101. Wow. And he was living with me. But I saw this. He was quite there. He was present. But things became kind of contrapuntal.

Time didn't really mean anything anymore. And there were images. He remembered things. We could have cogent emotional conversations. And he remembered where everyone was at emotionally and what their narrative was, what their story was. But his own background became present and future and past were all kind of mixed up.

So this seemed appealing in some way to try to work through that? Yeah, I thought this was really something for me to play with and work through my own emotions of watching him pass away. I'm curious, how had Paul changed as a filmmaker since you guys did American Gigolo? So long ago, he's made so many films, you've made so many films. Yeah, we're trying to figure it out. I think it was 45 years ago we worked together.

I mean, Paul's got his groove now. He's got his thing. I mean, the talent and the drive are still there, but I think he very much knows his niche now, and he writes to what is expectation of his budget. So he knows it's a 90 page script or whatever and he knows what that's going to cost and uh he's pretty much designed and directed the movie when he writes it how do you how do you feel in terms of working on a big production versus a more modest production

like this do you feel more comfortable when it's a smaller crew and you know that it's a 90 page script or do you like to be on a big set and a big, is there any difference for you as a performer? I like, I like the movement

of indie filmmaking. The last, I have to count, five, ten movies of mine have all been very small budgets with wonderful directors

but challenging scripts that never would be made by a studio now, ever. But I like that. I like the motion of that. I like the, you're on your feet, you're on your toes, not back on your heels all the time. Right. I was wondering if you felt like, or if you and Paul discussed O Canada being a kind of demythologizing of the Julian character from American Gigolo or sort of like taking a Lothario type.

You didn't. No, but he said other people will be. Yeah. I think it's one of the things he liked about us doing this together is that there is some kind of a connection there, some meta connection of Paul and me and the character and us both at older stages of our lives now and at that stage of telling stories of what it was like in the beginning.

So my reading of this movie, tell me if you agree with this at all. And I don't know if you feel sort of incorporated into this idea, but it's like a very venerated, celebrated person who's looking back on his life and saying like, do not celebrate me. I've done a lot of terrible things. I'm a very flawed person. I'm a very confused person at this stage because of what I'm enduring. Don't overstate what I've accomplished. And I feel like Paul has this complicated relationship to that, to being a great celebrated artist, but also a person who is very flawed. And I don't know how you feel about being accomplished and celebrated for those accomplishments at this stage of your life.

Do you like it when you were given awards at this stage of your career and they look back and they show you your old movies? Or would you rather not think about those things? I don't lean into it but if people you know they want to say nice things and you know express kindness and love towards me of course

why not I don't know some people feel discomfort with even just being forced to look back at certain things I guess

well I don't take it all that seriously but look every time there's a film festival does something for me and they do their compilation of my career it's always kind of amazing and weird to me and delightful at the same time

of seeing my life edited through someone else's idea of my life. Yeah. Because they're editing even what they choose in each of the films, what was interesting to that editor. It's going to be different person to person. But a lot of this stuff I forget. There are scenes that they'll pick out and put in a film that I forgot I shot that and I forgot that moment and I'll be flooded with memories. Paul and I talked a lot about Crap's Last Tape.

It's a story about a guy in a room, and he's been making tapes his entire life, kind of narrating his story. And it's someone sitting in a room, going to the old tapes and playing them, and reacquainting himself with a version of his past. And I think what Paul and I are playing with here is I'm not so sure the facts are really

the story. And if they are the story, they're irrelevant anyhow because they're not an experience. Facts are not an experience. Facts are not an experience. We deal in the realm of emotions and how we feel about things, how we feel about an experience. And that's what this character Leonard Fife is going through. He accepted the moment of telling his story. No interest, as we get right in the beginning, of telling the story that he's expected to tell of a filmmaker. He's telling the story of a man.

And he's saying things that have been difficult to say. And as he said, if the camera was not on, he wouldn't be able to say it. Right. He has to be honest or his version of being honest because the camera is on and his wife is there listening. There's a choice made in the movie that I think is really interesting. I was wondering if you feel similarly in your life through this, which is there are moments that are rendered that are the Jacob Elordi version of Leonard Fife. And then you appear in the frame. You are the present day Leonard Fife is appearing in this historical context. And that's sort of the only, I connected to that idea because I can only see my present self in my past experience.

And is that, I assume that was in the script, but I'm curious kind of how you talked through that and if you feel similarly about going through your memories. It's easier i found it easier to relate to who i was i can't imagine myself being a 75 year old man that's kind of like what how did that happen so i i sometimes see myself in the mirror and wonder who that is. Do you remember the end of 2001? Sure, in the bedroom? When it starts to go crazy at the end. Yeah.

You know, as I get older, I understand that. I mean, really understand it. Not just, wow, but no, I get that. It's mystifying when you're young, though, to watch that movie because you have no relationship. Yeah, equally fascinating to me what that ending was but I feel it viscerally now.

So you felt like you were tapping into some of that sensation for this? I think so. The childhood, childhood memories and end of life memories and projections are all in the same fabric. What about the acting style into that Interrotron-esque camera? That's pretty unusual as an actor to be asked to go into camera in the way that Leonard is because of this kind of documentary that's being made about him.

Do you think much about the performance style and how as opposed to playing off of someone specifically or you're in close-up for extended periods of time delivering dialogue? Yeah, I can't remember. Well, we had, I mean, I was, as is true to the technique, the Errol Morris technique, you do see someone. Was it Michael that you were seeing? I was seeing Michael and then I had the idea. I said, look, he's doing it for her, for his wife, for Uma.

I said, Paul, don't you think you should get her into it so we can talk directly to her? And he thought that was a good idea. So we passioned away to get her. I insisted. I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore, Michael. Right. I don't even like you. I want to talk to my wife.

And he acquiesces to that and she moves over. So I am speaking directly to her. It's just the viewer doesn't see that. Right, right. It struck me as an unusual way of seeing you perform. You just very rarely see an actor, a movie star, into camera saying what's critical. There's another film that we just completed, and it's actually on the Dalai Lama. And it's this footage that was done by these Swiss filmmakers. It was pre-COVID, and they used the same technique.

And His Holiness the Dalai Larm is looking right into the camera. And it's extraordinary. Someone that developed, but to be able, it's like you're having a private teaching with him, seeing directly into his intent. It's not peripheral. It's directly. And again, someone that developed developed you're getting it now you know this this character and this actor richard gear of not of that quality but you get so there is something about looking directly into a lens that as a viewer it touches you in a different place

yeah psychologically emotionally it's the i'm obsessed with with errol's movies and it's one of the reasons why i sort of like even if people are lying the camera cannot lie specifically in that context when you're forced to look down the barrel so I thought that was just such a great stroke of inspiration for this movie I was wondering about you and Jacob you know Jacob is kind of at this phase that you were once at we had had no idea, by the way. That he was going to be in that because of when you made this. No. I mean, we, I kind of, like the radar was,

he's one of the young actors who was terrific. And Paul gave me a list of possible actors who could play me. So, of course, we talked about it. I went and looked at one of his things. He said, look, he's really good. He's striking. You know, he's got some magic about it. I went and looked at one of his things. He said, look, he's really good. He's striking. He's got some magic about him. But we didn't know that he was going to.

There was one day, I was not shooting there, but they said 500 girls showed up. Everyone's like, whoa, what is going on here? So Paul and I kind of lucked into having this kid in the movie who's wonderful in the film, but he's also a really nice kid. Yeah. He's really a sweetheart. Did you, I mean, does he want advice from you? Do you have advice for him? I mean, it is striking actually how similar the sort of like arc

of simultaneously being identified very early on as a very talented actor, but a beautiful kind of rising star. And there's a mirror there. It was later for me. There'd been a lot of theater work. And I had done regional theater in New York and London. And I feel like I'd been around a lot before before I was even pointed towards making movies and I don't think that happens anymore it kind of happens really quick before actors are able to kind of explore themselves more before they're out there you think that's a good or a bad thing? I tend to think it's a challenge

that maybe can destroy people. I think it's healthier to wait. And certainly I was in my late 20s when it started to happen. Was your hope that it would happen faster back then? Do you remember? No. I was really happy doing theater.

In fact, I might have had a little chip in my shoulder about movies as being, you know. Yeah, you hear that sometimes, that that's not the real acting, the movie acting. Yeah. You miss the theater? No. It's very hard. The last piece that I did was over 40 years ago.

Wow. In fact, it was right after, I think it was right after I did Gigolo with Paul. And I must say that doing a long run, I don't know that I have the muscle for that. I get tired of the repetition. And there's a lot of repetition in filmmaking, all the different angles. And some of you end up saying a line or a sequence 50 to 100 times and you know by the end of that your brain is kind of fluid yeah yeah

but i'm um i think i'm more built for making films i was thinking about your career which is now almost 50 years long. You've worked with... Longer. Longer. Well, I guess if you include the theater as well. 19, so that's 56 years. As a person obsessed with movies, I think of the movie as the beginning of the career. But Malick, Coppola, Lumet, Altman, Schrader, many of the legendary figures of that time.

I was talking to my son about this. And my son is beginning a career himself as an actor, which came out of nowhere. He had no interest and then started fooling around at school and realizing, wow, this is really fun. Which it is. It's really fun. And it's play. I said, look, I was really, partly it was my choice is that I was smart enough to know that I wanted to work with really good directors. But also the opportunities presented themselves. And I took advantage of that.

So really all of my early films were some of the very best directors around. Yeah. Looking at the filmography, I noticed like a real lack of cynicism in all the choices that you're making. You know, there's not a lot of, you're not trying to cash in at any time. I really, I really admire that. If anything, it was probably the opposite. When things got too big, I kind of pulled way back and did some obviously uncommercial projects that would probably obfuscate what I was. Was that because of a sense of fear or concern about it? I think I just wanted to get out of it.

Really? Yeah, it was too much. You feel like that was a good choice looking back on it now? Yeah. Yeah. There certainly were periods where maybe I had less opportunities because my movies were not making that kind of money. I like to have the opportunities, like all of us. The three of us in this room right now.

I don't think our opportunities are quite the same as yours, but we're trying. But you will, whatever you choose, you know, you want, you want to be moving into a position of, you know, working with the best, doing the best, having the most fun. Um, is there a great filmmaker you always wanted to work with

and it never worked out? Well, there have been a lot. I can't remember one, you know, kind of going, I'm going to hold my breath. Right.

Die unless I work with that. No white whale. So having been through the business for this many years, do you have a sense of the health of movies? It's an ongoing discussion on this show about if this is all going to be okay, if this art form. I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, I'm a dinosaur, so I don't know. Do you care? Yeah, I do care because I think there was, I remember in New York that it was a deep part of who everyone was, was going to the movies together and having that communal experience. And if there was a new Bergman or a Truffaut or a Kurosawa or a Fellini or Antonioni or whatever, it's like you just waited for that moment

and you were in line for the first showing. And I don't know that that happens. If it is, it's for kind of a popcorn movie, which is fine, but it's a sugar experience. Yeah. That in the 60s and 70s, it was nurturing. It made you think, it made you feel, challenge how you saw the universe, how you saw yourself and others.

I'm not sure that that's happening. What about your kids? You mentioned your son is pursuing acting. Did you give movies to them? Or did they reject it because of your career in any way? No, I mean, my son, he's very thankful that, you know, when I would put him to sleep at night, we would often sit and watch Turner Classic movies. So he, from very early age, he's watching black and white films when there was this

incredible mix of entertainment, but of literature. And the language of film was evolving, was becoming itself at that point. And he realizes now that it just became part of his DNA. He understands that. Is there a film in your career that you think is misunderstood or underrated or something that you think people should go back to and take a look at?

You should talk to my friend Jonathan cott because he has several of those oh yeah that he brings up all the time what's is there an example of one like i was thinking about yanks mr jones was one oh interesting i haven't seen that in some time extreme bipolar guy yeah he thinks that was completely off the radar, never should have been. It should have been seen. Interesting. And appreciated for what it was. And there was a film I did a few years ago called Norman, which was a small movie with a small release that probably not enough people saw. Joseph Seder, a wonderful Israeli director,

directed that. And Warren Moverman produced that, who had done, I think, five or six movies right now. Right, right.

The Hoax, my friend brings up a lot too. I love The Hoax. I thought The Hoax also was a really good film. That's a great performance. It was an all-in film. It was called

Dr. T and the Women. I just watched it the other day. You know, I remember Bob saying to me, I said, it's the best I can do. What do they want from me? They were hard on that one. What do they want? Yeah, yeah.

It feels very much like a Robert Altman film. It's not any different than any of the 70s movies, the way that it works. That's a fun movie. It is a fun movie. I mean, the last sequence is a young woman giving a fun movie. It is a fun movie. I think it's, he was, I mean, the last sequence is a young woman

giving birth and it's in close-up. Mm-hmm. And you can imagine, especially all the Catholic countries wanted the scene out. But Bob and I

talked about it. I said, the movie doesn't work unless that's there. It actually is, it's the magic of that is the magic of the film is that we are inventing

and creating our universe all the time in kind of unimaginable ways. And he refused to take it out. So we didn't have release in a lot of Catholic countries. That's so strange. That's a really interesting movie. That's so strange. That's a really interesting movie.

That's a good example of a movie that people should go back to and take a look at, maybe reconsider. You took a break between 17 and 23 from making any movies. I, you know,

as a casual observer, was like, oh, I guess Richard Gere's not, he's retired or he's not going to make movies anymore. From when? From 2017 to 2023. No real films released

at that time. I don't know. I have to look up. I don't know. I have to look up. I don't feel like I've... Nothing purposeful about that. I think there were films. Yeah? Look it up.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't think so. Five years without making a movie? Yeah, unless some stuff was sitting on the shelf. Yeah. You've got The Dinner and Three Christs and Seventeen, and then maybe I Do last year, and there's a gap there.

I guess maybe you were making movies during that period? Well, I didn't make any movies during COVID. I mean, that was a two-year period. Yeah. I don't know. Nothing. There wasn't any conscious things. That was strategic.

You think about retiring? Is that even an idea that matters to you? I keep talking to my wife about it but she says you can't well I can see if you own kids yeah that's funny

I'm curious also whenever I talk to actors and I say like is there a kind of part you'd be curious you'd like to try to play they always say I'd like to do a musical

so there's not as many musicals made but you've done that you've done a musical is there like a certain kind of a part or like a certain kind of a film you've always wanted to do? No, I like to do more,

more things with music. I'll be like, when I started in, when I came to New York from regional theaters, it was a time of rock operas. I was very lucky. I had hair down to my tits, I was going to say. You can say it.

And I was in rock bands, and I could play a lot of instruments. I could sing and all that. So I was working immediately. I was very fortunate. And then I didn't do musicals for all these years, and then did Chicago. I'd forgotten how much fun it is. Yeah.

Is there a reason why? Because, you know, you were on Broadway in a musical right before the films in the 70s, right? And then that wasn't really a part of your on-screen persona at all. No, it's not like I was saying no to it. It just didn't present. Never came up. People didn't know or did you go up for stuff? Do you remember?

They just weren't happening. I mean, what musicals were happening then? Yeah, yeah. I guess that's true. It is sort of a lost style. But it's also, I probably shouldn't say this, but I didn't really, I was entertained by Chicago on Broadway, but I didn't think it was great. And I was kind of like, hmm, when it came my way. And I read the script, and the script was brilliant. It was brilliant. Made sense of it as a movie. And a deeper kind of weird exploration of people. Yeah.

Especially that woman. It's a great movie about fame. Projection. Fame. Who am I? What's real? What is power? You know, I play the cynical guy in it who understands it all and plays it.

But it's all literally seen through her. I mean, it's in her eye. It comes out of her eye. And you see her being swept into this dream of, you know, being somebody. I mean, it was very rare. And then with Rob Marshall,

such a brilliant director. You're about to do your first U.S. TV series. You've already shot it. We shot the first 10 episodes, yeah. So, you know, I know you did something in the UK at some point, but not... Did a BBC thing, yeah. Yeah, but no other television besides that over the years. I assume they must have come to you many times. Yeah, I mean, there was a stigma, I guess, about that early on, but that stigma went away years ago.

But still you held out. One, that the quality was so high in these things. Not everything, but it was higher, higher than most of the movies being made. And this was, you know, it came to me and it was a version of a French series called Le Bureau. The Bureau. And a spy thing. I've seen it. It's very good. Terrific, terrific series.

I think it was six years or seven years, something like that, of stuff. And my wife and I were hooked on it. We loved it. One of the few things we could see after the kids went to bed and we couldn't, you know, we were about ready. But, okay. The hour of that was great. That's a great show. And this was put together with terrific actors,

Michael Fassbender and Jeffrey Wright. It just seemed like, okay, that made sense. Plus, I was going to be living in Madrid, and that would be easy to Go to London and shoot Different at all from making the films? No, none Really? None

You have a script You have characters You have every day You've got to make the scenes work And everyone there comes out of movie making The crews You know, the same They come out of movie making

The trailer to me Just looks like a movie. Every actor in it is a movie actor. It is kind of fascinating. I was shocked with those. Look, it's the biggest set I've ever seen in my life. It's a huge soundstage in London, outside of London. And a bigger budget. I mean, I've been making, happily making movies, $4 million, $5 million, $6 million, and we shoot for 20 or 25 days.

I'm fine with that. I'm perfect. This is, that's half an episode on these TV shows. Yeah, yeah. It was a big deal. Richard, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. The last great thing I've seen? Have you seen, you know, obviously a cinephile.

I have to be honest with you. This is not self-serving. It's just this film that we've been editing and we just finished on the Dalai Lama. What is it? Does it have a title? It's very moving. Yeah. It's called The Wisdom of Happiness.

And it has footage of his holiness the Dalai Lama as a child but takes him through his whole life. The invasion

from China. This is the one you've been friends with for years. Huh? This is someone you've been friends with for years. Huh? This is someone you've been friends with for years, too. 40, 45 years.

It's been a teacher of mine. And I just moved, I was so moved, working on it. And we, Oren and I re-edited the entire thing and then found the footage. But I was just, and when we showed it the first time at the Zurich Film Festival last month, I was just devastated. It was,

I found it so moving and so powerful. The wisdom of happiness. Yeah. Richard Gere, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

Thank you to Richard Gere. Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Shout out to Jack and Bobby. We got fucking Juan Soto, baby! Later this week, the king of physical media comes to the big picture. Who is that, you might ask?

You'll have to listen in to find out. See you then.