The Big Picture - The Stephen King Movie Hall of Fame

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

There is a new adaptation of Stephen King’s ‘Firestarter’ out this weekend, which got us thinking about King movies and how they never really go away. Sean is joined by Matt Gourley and Paul Rust of the With Gourley and Rust podcast to build a shrine comprised of 10 Stephen King adaptations. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Matt Gourley and Paul Rust Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Dan Zastrzemski, host of the Ring of Gambling Show. You want to join my buddy, Joe House, and I every Tuesday and Friday. We break down all the lines, the leans, totals, props, and so much more for the NBA playoff action. And JJ, you never know when the podfather himself, Bill Simmons, is going to stop in. Plus, we are dropping special episodes in the feed around all the big events. We have some major golf coming up, JJ. You want to get in on all of it. So whether you fancy yourself as a sharp or someone who likes to just throw a few shekels down,

get on the action with the Ringer Gambling Show on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about King things. There is a new adaptation of Stephen King's Firestarter out this weekend.

It's available in theaters, and it's also available to stream on Peacock. It stars Zac Efron. Is it good? Who knows? But it did get me thinking about Stephen King movies and how they never really go away. And that is coinciding wonderfully with one of my favorite movie podcasts, which is now called With Gorley and Rust, and has been cycling through their very own cozy history of horror movies. So the hosts of that show are here with me right now, Matt Gorley and Paul Rust. Hi, guys. How are you? Hi, Sean. Hello, Sean. Well, I'm well. I was

going to say we are well, but I'll let Matt speak for himself there. No, Paul has my proxy, and he's correct. So gentlemen, why don't you, before we get into Stephen King, explain to me the mission of the show that you've been making for a little while and what you're after and how you got to Stephen King. Well, it just came afoot on Twitter that we were both into horror movies, specifically Paul mentioned Friday the 13th. And we thought, let's do a miniseries on Friday the 13th, which then led to Halloween, which then led, of course, to Nightmare on Elm Street. And then we were looking for reasons to continue. We left where we were. We started our own thing, free podcast on Patreon. And we go on at length

in the coziest manner possible. We call it an easy listening podcast about horror movies, where it's just two buddies talking, slashing. So you started with Friday the 13th, and what have you done since then oh boy since the big three franchises we went to alien we went to shark weeks where we did not just jaws movies but knockoffs and you know bitey fish movies like piranha what else we did like a christmas one what else paul uh we we didream recently. We tackled those screams. Yeah. Soon we'll be starting Child's Play and then

a season we're calling Yuppie Nightmares about things like Hand That Rocks The Cradle, Sleeping With The Enemy. Pacific Heights. So I love all those movies. Stephen King is unusual because he is unlike the franchises that you started with

He is really the only commonality among all the movies that are from him There's no extended universe There's no studio that owns the rights to all of his stories There's no filmmaker who only focuses on Stephen King movies Have you guys, what have you found as you've gone through the extended filmography of his movies? Oh, but Sean, wouldn't that be great if there was a shit like Kujo meets Carrie? Carrie adopts Kujo? Oh my God.

You know what? I'd never seen the movie Cat's Eye before. And I watched Cat's Eye this week. I don't know if you've seen that one. Long ago. And Cat's Eye is directed by the same guy who directed Kujo, Louis Teague. And Kujo shows up in the opening frames of Cat's Eye. He's kind of wandering

around chasing a cat, or a cat is chasing him. And it's like the very beginning. You know, it's like Doctor Strange showing up in a Spider-Man movie, but for King. And of course, there was a King TV show. Oh my gosh. Well, he did Alligator as well. That's right. So this guy went from alligators

to dogs to cats. This guy's a real zoophile. He is. What if you got Cujo and Church from Pet Sematary and they did one of those like amazing journey or what's that movie, that Disney movie? Milo and Otis. Yeah.

Or Homeward Bound. Yeah. Killing tramps. That would be fantastic. I mean, King is an interesting figure for me. Obviously, I'm a reader of his books, but his movies are what imprinted upon me first. Did you guys have a big relationship to him

before you dug into this? Why did it take you as many episodes as it did to get to him as a theme? My first experience with Stephen King was, it was almost like a contraband. It was like, you'd look over and see it in somebody's desk. And it was like third or fourth grade. And you're like, oh my God, this person just started learning to read really well two years ago. And now they're reading it. And the way it sort of circulated on playgrounds and at recess of the serious shit you would see or hear or read, I guess, in a Stephen King book, that became the lore.

And so I think, in a way, it was sort of its own, like those old EC comics or something. I think probably something that kids traded and it blew their minds. I'll say it. It was basically like when you're walking down the train tracks, you either find shredded porn mag or the cover of a Stephen King novel. And both had a kind of mystique about them that you wanted to keep it, but you couldn't take it in the house. So you just bury it in a bottle. I wouldn't do that.

Yeah, there is something resonant about those covers. I feel like either wandering the aisles of the public library growing up, or even being in a B. Dalton and catching, I don't know, the stand out of the corner of my eye or it out of the corner of my eye and being like, that seems illicit and wrong. And so I need to be close to it. Yeah. It's the same feeling you'd get when you go to a video store and see all those covers of the horror VHS that really had nothing to do with the movies, but still, you know, it was always all the way down from the cover, basically. Did you guys find yourselves reading those books or just looking for, or like, this is

880 pages of evil and weirdness and I need the movie version. I read The Shining when I was in junior high on a fishing trip with my dad where we were both isolated together. Just tearing through The Shining. You were a small child isolated with your father reading The Shining. Oh my God.

And I love The Shining. Oh my God. And I love The Shining. Despite the circumstances. And then, yeah, my wife is a big reader of Stephen King. And so, I haven't thought about it this way,

but it is kind of like being back on the playground now where I'm like, what happened in Mr. Mercedes? I first read it when I was isolated with a clown and his friend, a bunch of Tommy knockers and some Langoliers. I don't know what those are. You got to keep them out. You got to keep out the Langoliers.

I don't know what they are either, but they do remind me of another way that i was introduced to king because given my age the stephen king tv movie and tv miniseries was so prevalent in our at least in my house i feel like my parent one of the few things my parents could agree on before my parents split up was let's watch the langoliers together which you know i don't know why but in that that era of tv movie and this is like 10 or 12 years after you know carrie and the shining and the dead zone and these kind of like iconic king films these tv miniseries moments which are kind of a kind of a i don't know a precursor to where we're at now with the miniseries moment in television. And they felt like big, noisy events typically on ABC, if I recall.

And they were captivating to me as an eight or nine-year-old, but also upon reflection, looked like absolute shit and were often not very well-made. Did you guys watch those? Yeah, they were 100% junk food, but who doesn't love junk food once in a while?

And so it was like just playground fodder, conversation fodder to talk about it or the stand. And I think I saw the setup episodes to the stand, but never found out where it went somehow. Like I missed it. And so you just hear the ending wrapped up by some kid in fifth grade that just, I can't trust this guy. To this day, I don't know that I know the full story. Yeah, I love them. And Mick Garris is a great director

who's like, I think, probably the most of them. And he's a great craftsman. So if you watch some Mick Garris, Stephen King adaptations, you're in for a real,

like, nice five, six hour treat. His are the best by far. I'm a huge fan of his version of The Stand. My very favorite was this one called Sometimes They Come Back. That's directed by Tom McLaughlin, who did Friday the 13th 6, Jason Lives.

And that's a fan favorite of Friday the 13th. So, if people like that, they got to check out the Greasers Return from Hell movie. Sometimes they come back. Do you remember what the first Stephen King thing you saw was? What was the first movie? Oh, I do. I saw the trailer for The Shining when I was very young in the theaters with my parents. We were watching the original Going in Style with George Burns and Art Carney, which arguably I shouldn't even be at that, just context-wise. It's about old men robbing a bank. But the trailer for The Shining came on, and it was just the teaser where there's the slow burn music and the elevator opens and blood just

comes pouring out. And I don't know if this was what happened, but my memory tells me I just stared at it and then looked at my parents like, what the fuck are you doing? Shouldn't you be averting my eyes or something? And then no, right into going in style and they're just laughing it up. They were transfixed. They couldn't stop it either. But did that make you want to see it, Matt? Did that make you want to? It did. And I had a similar experience with Halloween. And I think that's what drives my love for these movies today. It's a morbid curiosity. The Shining, I think, was my first Stephen King movie because I sought it out on early cable TV, select TV,

because I had to know what the blood in the elevator was. Turns out you watch that movie, you still don't really know. So to this day, I'm looking for answers. Did you have to beg your parents to show it to you? How did that work? Or were they more permissive? Oh, gosh. How old? Permissive, if even neglectful. I must have been, well, that came out in 80. So it probably would have hit cable in like 81 or 82 at that time. So I was eight or nine, I guess. That's just way too young. At least The Shining is a little more abstract, but I saw Halloween when I was five or six or something and it scarred me.

I remember you talking about this on your podcast and thinking that's far too young. And especially, I think we're both new parents. And as a new parent, when can I show my daughter the most depraved things that I love is constantly on my mind. Paul, what about you? What's the first thing, the first king thing that you saw? Oh, mine was The Shining 2.

It was on the USA Network. And I saw it just as Stanley Kubrick had intended. Pan and scan. Pan and scan with violence, nudity, language, all added out with frequent

commercial breaks. Somehow the USA Network did seem to be a cozy home for horror and for the films of Stephen King too. I don't know why.

Maybe that was just their programming strategy at that time. But genre and WWF and you know. What was Rhonda Shearer and what was that show called? Up All Night. I was going to say that was my first exposure to exploitation movies and quote unquote B-movie, cult movies was Friday Night. Gilbert Godfrey hosted on Friday nights. Rhonda Shearer on Saturday nights. I just shared a story on our pod to Matt that was, I would tune in to these B-grade with all the nudity cut out

because I was convinced that one night USA Network would just accidentally make a slip up and just allow a movie with like nudity and violence and then I would be there to see it but never happened hard to believe the premise of showing exploitation movies and B movies

to audiences cutting out all the things that allowed the movie to be made in the first place like none of those movies would have been made without intense violence or nudity. And that speaks really to the 1980s culture of America. I think the first King thing that I saw is probably Stand By Me. But I don't love Stand By Me, which I feel like is a blasphemous opinion. Because there's really two tracks of the Stephen King movie

and the Stephen King fan, I think to some extent too. There's the person who likes gore and this sort of like enchanted evil object and danger and those graphic novel covers. And then there's the sweet, I don't know,

almost Americana version of Stephen king about young children and about friendship and finding you know discovering connections between people that we didn't know existed that's probably best represented in like stand by me and the shawshank redemption and even the green mile to a lesser extent in a handful of films you guys haven't covered as many of those i've noticed um on with gorley and Russ. Are you purposefully avoiding the non-gory, hardcore King stuff? Well, I think because there's so many to choose from, and we typically do cover horror movies and thrillers, even though we've taken some breaks for Krull and Mr. Mom and things like that. I think those just aren't top of the list, but I get what you're saying.

Stand By Me, I haven't seen it in a long time, but I'm the same way. And I think we should kind of approach this franchise the way... I had another podcast called James Bonding. I love James Bond movies, but there's inevitably some that you just don't like. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's something there for everyone. It's blasphemous, but I don't love Carrie. And I feel like that brings in a lot

of people going, what? Are you crazy? So let's just say, hey, you're allowed to have some gaps there and celebrate the ones you like, for Christ's sake. Yeah, 100% agree. So not liking Carrie is an interesting thing, and I want to circle back to that. No, not 100% agreed on the Carrie thing. 100% disagree on the Carrie part. I disagree as well. I get it. And I get I'm in the minority and that I'm a flawed human. I think many people would say the same

about my Stand By Me opinion. I think most people love that movie for a lot of reasons. Stephen King in the dreadful world of IP movie conversation really does persist in a way that like almost nothing else persists. It's kind of amazing to me that there's another fire starter movie and that they're continuing to dig deep into his, um, his vast library of stories and novels.

And I can't quite figure it out. Now, obviously the books are wonderful and he has a kind of natural invention about him that is ever repeatable. And they always appeal to young people. But why do you think he's still thriving as a storytelling figure for us right now? I mean, he's such a brilliant ideas man. I think you could argue that a lot of his ideas take a left turn that sometimes is counterproductive. But if you get the right screenwriter and especially the right director, you end up with a product that probably is, no offense to Stephen King, better than the book. And then if you get sort of incapable people helming it, you get something that's worse than the book. It takes a farther, it takes a U-turn in a way. And that's when you get certain crazy adaptations that I

really love, like Maximum Overdrive and Children of the Corn, but they're really flawed. So I don't know, to go to the screen, it needs a careful touch, I think. Paul, what about for you? Why do you think King is still thriving? Yeah, I don't know matt and i talk about it sometimes like i was thinking about i think in some ways he has sort of like a a hold on his uh his imagination runs parallel to what an audience wants and there's no he doesn't seem to get tripped up by it it's it's like i think he has the same touch as like steven spielberg and paul mccartney which is they're geniuses who love making the

people happy so they just fucking like deliver the stuff you want to yeah get delivered on and don't have hangups about it or something. So, you know, another author might go, is the rabies dog the best? I don't know if that's exactly the right way, but I think it's also just he seems to have, like the other people I mentioned, some just primal hold on people, what people fear. It's also kind of a numbers game because he's so prolific. There has to be a lot of good in there. Yeah, I think both of those things are

true. I think he has this metaphysical understanding and is unafraid to tap into what he fears, and he's constantly writing about what he fears and translating that into the world. This is actually true of Paul McCartney, but I don't think, this is actually true of Paul McCartney, but I don't think we knew it was true of Paul McCartney until like the last 15 or 20 years. But he's very, very aware of his own process. You know, he wrote this whole book on writing a memoir of the craft.

And so he both understands what propulsive narrative story writing is and kind of what creativity is and imagination, like you said, Paul, that makes him really special. You know, he's really internal and really external at the same time. Most writers are very internal and can only think about their own process. They don't think about the audience. I think he really thinks about the audience a lot. And nobody thinks about the audience more than movie producers. Movie producers are obsessed, as you guys know, with what the

audience wants and what their expectations are. And audience expectations, such a huge part of horror movies. When we sit down in a horror movie, we're like, I need to feel something. I don't need to think about the wider world. I don't need to have a revelation about my relationship to my parents. I just need to be scared. And I don't know, King, you're right, taps into that in a very primal way. Also, though... I mean, maybe... Oh, taps into that in a very primal way. Also though- I mean, maybe, oh, go ahead. No, go ahead, Paul. Oh, I was just going to say it in like a specific way.

Like somebody pointed out to me what's like The Shining. It's like, if you're a child, that's scary to watch because, hey, my parents could kill me. And then as a parent, you watch it, you're like, hey, I could kill my kids. So I think that's maybe also stephen king it's like those two you maybe there's could be appreciate whether you're eight or eighty if you extrapolate that to it too it's like oh a birthday clown could kill me and then there's some birthday clown going wait there's there's something more to this job um okay let's talk about the movie

shot i interrupt okay no no you didn't interrupt anything i'm we're all stream of consciousness except for king he's got it all under control um do you ever think he worries about running out of ideas i know he's written about writer's block but i matt you're right he's so prolific he's still cranking out books yeah and i think I think this is just a theory that where a lot of other creators would curate their ideas a little bit more, he, I think, gets a germ of an idea and just goes. And I have no proof of this, but that seems to be why some of the books don't really follow through to their potential because maybe he hasn't thought through them. Where some, the idea is so good and he's just on a roll and he sticks the landing perfectly. That's why it's kind of a numbers game with his works. And there's plenty of works you still haven't seen

adapted into film and there must be a reason. Yeah. I mean, some of them too have been adapted poorly or in a halfway manner that it feels like this could go on and on forever and ever. I mean, the Dark Tower is going to happen again in a more successful way at some point. It has to. And I would die. When we were watching Children of the Corn for the season, just to see a big budget, really well done,

almost, can you imagine a Kubrick version of Children of the Corn? Oh my God. Holy moly. Yeah, him having, imagine a Kubrick version of Children of the Corn? Oh my God. Holy moly. Yeah. Him having... I bet though he has discarded ideas that any novelist would just kill

to be able to... Reminds me a little bit of... Robert Rodriguez shared a story once. He was over at Quentin Tarantino's house and he picked up a scene and he was reading it. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. What is this what is this and he's like oh it's for something I wrote but I didn't end up using and Robert Rodriguez said it was like that scene in Three Amigos when the two of them are so thirsty that they look over at Chevy Chase he just downs the whole canteen of water and then tosses it aside onto the desert floor. I imagine Stephen

King probably is like, you know, pulled out a typewritten page and crumpled it up. And somebody's like, oh my God, a haunted ukulele story that I could have sent my kids to college to. I wanted to ask you both about that, actually, because for some people, they see this wellspring of creativity, someone like King, who seems to never run out of ideas and even if they're bad he just keeps pushing forward for me personally as a largely uncreative person working in a creative field i'm pretty daunted by that i see somebody who has that so many ideas and i'm not like wow i can do it too i'm like i'll never do anything you think about someone, is that intimidating to you? Is it frustrating to you? Or do you just contend to fall into their world? You mean, is it frustrating to access their work? Or do you mean in terms of

creating our own things? Does he make you feel more or less creative? You know, I, for whatever reason, never seem to measure another artist's work to my own because because i consider myself like a creator but a hobbyist professional creator in a way i just do it for the joy of it so i think i'm probably a little bit more curated and precious about the things i do and if i don't have a strong stance of where it's going i won't get started on it but I really respect that I actually admire it and would aspire to it because I think it's probably stopped me from doing things before so my

hat's off to him even if some of the things he doesn't turn out that amazing who the hell cares I mean we get more Stephen King we're all luckier for it I think yeah I when somebody's an artist or a writer or a creator is like really prolific, I like it as a fan, because if you like them a lot, you just have as many opportunities as possible to gobble it up. Whereas, yeah, like if you're a Kubrick fan, you can only watch the same 12 or 13 movies over and over.

But those are like, if somebody usually picks their moments, they're usually pretty great. So as a fan, I like it when somebody's prolific as a, uh, uh, and, uh, yeah, creator and big quotation. I was talking about therapy,

how I'm uncomfortable calling myself a writer to people. So, yeah, I am too like creator or artists or anything like that. That's, I always have to preface it with a hobbyist, but I respect it when somebody is not prolific and sort of like, you know,

you get like a big, uh, Oh, Jonathan Franzen took a decade to write Freedom. You're talking about Guns N' Roses, Chinese democracy? Of course, always. Spielberg's kind of that middle ground that's interesting. If you take Kubrick and King on the other side, Spielberg's more curated, but he also tends to be consistent with his work. Maybe that is the happy middle ground. There's some stinkers in there, but for the most part,

you're getting some really good stuff. You're making me want to cultivate this persona though for podcasting. Like I want to put out one pod every seven years and it'll be, it'll be really good. Like it'll be good. You're the Terrence Malick of podcasting. But I'm not talking about one series or one episode. But that better be so goddamn good. But it will. It will be good. It would have to be.

It'll be like the Kubrick freaks who take each minute to break it down because you've only given them so much time. It's like, if it's in here, it is meaningful that Sean put it in there. And then what happens is you die before your last one and paul and i have to reconstruct it out of your notes i love the idea of you guys finishing my ai that would be really meaningful to me honestly god i'd be honored i i love this podcast i'm gonna kill you that that actually sounds a bit like a Stephen King premise.

Two guys listening to a pod only to murder the pod host so that they can then become the pod. Single white podcaster. It is paranormal stuff though, primarily. Like Cujo is the only movie where we watched where a dog just gets rabies and paranormal stuff doesn't usually freak me out as much. Cynic as I am,

but yeah, Matt and I think are both are like Halloween Friday, 13 guys where maybe not all of the installments, but most of them could take place within reality. Yeah. Like a slasher entering your house and killing you is so much more scary than ghosts that we don't particularly take any stock in. But what I like is maybe when they really take off is,

like Matt said previously, when an auteur sort of makes a Stephen King movie, that's when things can really rise above. When Dino De Laurentiis bought the rights to Stephen King movies and then just was sort of hiring first-timers and stuff to adapt the material, I think it was like a disservice. This is a long way of saying because if they have paranormal stuff and it's well-made, oh my gosh, you can hook into that.

So like Christine is one of my faves. And it's all because John Carpenter, peak like the thing era John Carpenter, like really, I believe it. So I don't know. I prefer non-paranormal stuff, but if it's done right, it seems to be the trick.

I wanted to ask you guys how you chose what to cover and what's important to even talk about with these movies because as I look at the totality of them, they start out with exactly

what Paul was describing. They start out with serious auteurs, new Hollywood guys using King's work as launch pads for maybe deeper ideas about things that they're interested in so not just carrie and the shining which are you know the first two and really the two the two totemic ones i would say at this point but even creep show and and george romero and king's participation in in that film and then and then the legendary lewis teague who

we've talked about, the lord of zoology. And then Cronenberg with The Dead Zone and Carpenter with Christine. And so right out of the shoot, you've got heavyweight filmmakers adapting this stuff.

And I think when we think of Back on King movies, we don't necessarily think of them as the source text for serious filmmakers. We think of it more like maybe The Langoliers. And if not The Langoliers,

you know, Misery and Shawshank and, you know, and then on the other side, like Needful Things or Apt Pupil or, you know, more recently, like, I guess It, which is, you know, made by a very good, competent Hollywood filmmaker, but maybe not like a true visionary. So were you guys taking those things into consideration or was it purely like personal relationship to the movies when you're picking them? It was, well, first of all, one thing Paul pointed out is that at some point, like you said, there were these auteur filmmakers, but then it became about the name Stephen King. So it'd be Stephen King's this. And was it, was it, it was Children of the Corn, right? Where the budget was a good amount.

And then they realized if they wanted Stephen King's name on the marketing, they'd have to pay him an extra 500,000. So the budget went down to 800,000 for the film, just so they could put King on the poster, which made the movie suffer so much. You can look at it. It's like 1983, literally John Carpenter's Christine, 1984, Stephen King's Children of the Corn. And after that, it's like everything is sort of like Stephen King. You don't need your Brian De Palma's getting in here and messing things up. You don't have to pay them too. You can get Mark L. Lester to direct Firestarter. Yeah.

But for choosing our films, we did 10 films for this season and we each chose five. And it was really just like, what does your heart say? You know, for whatever reason, is it because you want to cover this from a technical perspective or that it is one of the temples of the franchise or just some selfish reason? A lot of mine were selfish. I hadn't seen them since I was a kid. I wanted to revisit them like Children of the Corner and Cujo. But then Running Man is a favorite of mine too.

Yeah, and I had never seen The Running Man. And that was the discovery for me. When Matt presented that to me, I was like, the fact that there were so many sleepovers that I attended where this never was put into a VCR. I'm like, I'm really kind of shocked and saddened that I didn't. It took that long for me to see the running man. I wish I had shown it to you with us just having a sleepover in the family room.

Our wives bringing in glasses of Mountain Dew. Okay, we're trusting you boys to go to sleep on your own. Okay. They trust us to not to. That's the fun. You're 16 ounces of pure caffeine and sugar. It's hard to imagine feeding any child Mountain Dew or really any of the things that I consumed under the age of 10.

It's really, it's terrifying. My mom would talk about on Saturday mornings when she would like, or Sunday mornings when she would open the door to the living room or TV room that was holding four, five, 11 to 12-year-old boys. She would be like, the stench that would just hit your face of body odor and farts and disgusting food.

Poor moms. That's why we have Mother's Day. That's another Stephen King book launching point right there. Poor moms. That's why we have Mother's Day. That's another Stephen King book launching point right there. The Mist. That's what The Mist was. A huge slumber party in that town. We're going to get to The Mist.

I promise you that. Are you guys getting to The Mist? You've mostly done classics. You just did it. It's coming out. It's just coming out. Probably, this will probably be out by the time. Yeah, yeah.

When will this be out? Tomorrow. Oh, so ours is coming the same day. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect promotion. I love that you did The Mist because, you know, most of the ones that you guys have done, you've done Cujo and Children of the Corn and Christine and The Running Man, as you mentioned,

and Misery Maximum Overdrive, Silver Bullet and The Dead Zone. Great picks. Yeah, more on the 80s front than 90s and early turn of the century. But what were you going to say?

Well, yeah. So why is that? Is that because those are the films that were resonating for you when you were kids and those are the ones like Matt said he wanted to go back to?

Do you think those are the best ones? You know, as we start to build out whatever we're going to do here. I don't know if it's quite a Hall of fame or an essentials or you will make a combination of our favorites over the last 45 years of king movies what yeah what is there a reason why 1982 to 1989 is the the hollowing point it has to be something to do with our ages and we didn't do the shining specifically because we'd covered it as a commentary on our Patreon. But if we were really truly doing a cohesive Hall of Fame,

that would absolutely have to be in there. I think, yeah, also if you somehow were able to track Matt and I's separate serotonin levels and levels of non-anxiety, if you could track that, it'd probably be from like 1982 to 19. Like there also just happened to be when, God love it, we were watching these movies and feeling the best.

It's like when somebody is just like, hands down, best cast of SNL, 1998 to 2002 when I was in junior high. The ultimate arbiter of all things good. But yeah, I think more recent ones that we could have done were like the new It. Definitely. I mean, that seemed to like be such a got a hold of the zeitgeist in such a big way

that it would be deserved to talk about. And but I try to keep up with them. I've seen the secret Windowses and the Cells. Secret Window, a little better than Cell, in my opinion. But I don't know if many people have seen Cell. Matthew, are you keeping up with them too? Do you still feel up on the King movies? No, I'm keeping up on the big ones like It and the new Pet Sematary.

But no, there are some real gaps in there. But I think they're forgivable gaps. Oh yeah, I've seen Doctor Sleep. I have a lot of love to give for Doctor Sleep. I'm just going to put that out there. Director's cut of Doctor Sleep, one of the better movies of the last 10 years. I'm just saying it out loud.

I love, people are like, have such a love for it. And that makes me feel happy. What Paul and I are trying to cautiously say is it didn't work as much for us. I'm sorry to hear that. This is where we celebrate what people like with no apologies. Exactly. I hate The Shining.

Just kidding. I love The Shining. Well, you said you're not a Carrie person. I'm not. Which is shocking to hear, I will say. I know. As shocking as a bucket of blood getting dropped on you in front of your peers

do we want to get into this because I can try to explain it because I feel like I have to of course I think we should I mean it's his first novel and it's the first adaptation of his work

onto the big screen and it's a huge hit and it's one of the most legendary Brian De Palma films I get it Sean a signal hit and it's one of the most legendary brian de palma films i get it sean a signal event in the history of horror films and uh in my opinion it holds up to this day and matt i've invited you on this show and you've said something terrible so why don't you like it let me explain i think i think i do like carrie and i certainly recognize its importance i i have a real complicated relationship with Brian De Palma,

and I don't mean this in any kind of prude Puritan way. I just don't trust his intentions, and I can't tell what's selfishness and what's genius. But Paul has been the most wonderful guy because he's a big De Palma fan, and he took me through body double on a season, and I didn't care for it. But then the more I sat with it, the more I started to like it. I found it so cozy. But De Palma, man, this guy, every time I think I've answered a question about how to understand him, it opens up two more questions. Then you watch the documentary where he's just talking to the camera and then I have more questions. I don't trust him as a creator, but I've always drawn to the riddle of Brian De Palma.

And Carrie is a movie that makes me feel so icky at times that it's not the supernatural. It's not the Carrie part of it. It's the De Palma part of it. And I just can't reconcile it sometimes. I don't know what it is. You've just made a persuasive case for Carrie and Brian De Palma. Everything you just described is what he's trying to accomplish, right? Paul pointed this out to me too. The opening scene with all the locker room

nudity is, Paul made a great point that that was setting you up to then be uncomfortable with the period moment. But I also felt like just seeing Sissy Spacek having that really sensuous music and slow motion caressing of her own breasts is if you need that all you need you don't need a parade of again this is not from a prudish aspect i just felt like i was watching a man take advantage of his situation and and that's what took me out of the film not the prudity of it it was like wait what's the reason for this and i wasn't watching the movie i was it's part of my own fault i was just trying to figure things out like i always am you know you guys and like i think we as we said it's like uh uh the whole thing about having the the

diploma dialogue the diploma conversation is one person going i don't get it and the De Palma conversation is one person going, I don't get it. And the person who's a fan gets to defend it and be passionate. And the other person gets to maybe go, okay, that's interesting. But still, I don't know. They're just fun movie talks. I never fully feel like, and this is going to be probably really shocking to hear about De Palma, that he's actually in full control of what he's doing. And I've said that about Carpenter before, where he can just strike gold by just trying things. De Palma seems at sometimes slave to his prurient natures that I can't tell if that's his filmmaking or his beard. I think you're onto something,

and that's what's good about him. Okay, okay. Maybe maybe not good but accomplished i think that like he is and one of the reasons why in my opinion he's one of the best matches for king is because king does have kind of an inherent sweetness and innocence that he brings to these very dark stories that he tells about evil and he has this almost kind of Judeo-Christian power in some of his stories. And Brian De Palma is really sinister. I think he's got some really dark stuff going on. And that documentary is a fascinating revelation of a person who is unresolved in some of his deepest feelings. And I like that. I like when people get to work inside

the system to make something out of those feelings. Now, obviously, if he took advantage of anyone, I wouldn't, I'm not in favor of that. And I think that would be terrible, but him kind of exploring some of those, those darker depths, it's, it's, it's related to Kubrick too. I think it's related to Kubrick kind of taking the shining and like mangling it into his own form and his own vision for what the story should be. You know, legendarily Stephen King was not a fan of Stanley Kubrick's vision of the shining. And, um, he did like the television remake, um, several decades later. And that tells you a lot about Stephen King's vision of movies too, which is not always to be trusted candidly. Um, but I think of those two movies as kind of like

the, the opening gongs for something that's going to be really, really important. Um, yeah, yeah. And I, when we talked about Carrie, I,

I've rewatched it so much, but, um, my last time I watched, I was like, uh, for the, for our podcast,

I was like something with the, the hand in glove with the diploma and Stephen King that I liked was a. Sounds too out there, but like the De Palma technical wizardry is sort of like its own like TK. It's sort of its own like telekinesis. So you can have this kind of like double experience of what Carrie is, which is like the mundane and then the like fantastical, because you're getting to see just these like suburban living rooms and houses and stuff. Wait, I think, Paul, you may have helped me actually try to crystallize my problem, and I'm going to see if I can get this out.

So De Palma as opposed to Kubrick, because I can't tell you why I'm so drawn in by Kubrick on The Shining in particular. I'm not thinking about the movie, I'm watching the movie. De Palma draws me out where I'm still so locked and fascinated, but I'm watching the artifice and not to get too heady, but like in theater, that Brechtian conflict where the author wants you to think about the message of the film not being engrossed in the willing suspension of disbelief. But because De Palma is always tackling things like Stephen King and Mission Impossible and The Untouchables, which are in themselves just kind of large tales that deserve popular culture immersion, I'm being drawn out to find something that I find a little bit more like, I just want go inward with that not be drawn out for a larger message I want to escape and I want to be entertained and it's weird that he's an auteur handling such like just just popular entertainment that that's what I find at odds and I can't quite reconcile with it myself, I think. The new Hollywood thing is like, it's so exciting because you get to see somebody's sort of brain opened up without much intrusion.

And De Palma seems to be the person who can like open up his brain the most and sort of show the most of his wild side. And I love it. Yeah, I mean, I love being able to see into somebody's brain, love it when it's weird. And so you get both. But I hear what you're saying to like sometimes do that with like the untouchables or something.

Maybe it feels like dissonant or I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think he's, to me i've always read that as a like the war within him which is this you know post vietnam radical socialist artist collide who did you know experimental theater in the late 60s colliding with a craven capitalist son of a doctor, you know, who's like, I have to win and I have to have sex with beautiful people and I have to have money. And I also hate myself.

And here are all of the ways I transmit those feelings onto the big screen. And, uh, man, what a genius. I love it. I think it's amazing. I wonder if Carrie never happened.

If Stephen King has a movie machine never happens. Because, you know, this movie was a hit, and The Shining was a hit, of course. And, you know, it's an interesting hypothetical, you know, if this movie didn't hit. Yeah, for Sissy Spacek and Piper Laurie to be both nominated for Oscars for this Stephen King, it does put him in probably a more Tony position

than somebody adapted a Dean Kuntz novel. No hate on the Kuntz. I think for the purposes of this conversation, let's say we're going to take 10 movies and we're going to say these movies have to go in

to whatever it is that we're building. Carrie has to go in. And I'm pro that because even my confusion of it, I recognize, hey, just what it is for setting up the franchise. But it's a good film. I really, I respect it.

Oh, and Matt, let it be known, you have a truth, you speak it, and I love it, buddy. Hey, my girlfriend, I got my back for that. Oh, well well that's nice thank you I love watching friendship in action that's actually the opposite

of usually what we do on this show which is that I bring on my dearest friends in the world and then we yell at each other so this is a nice

change of pace for us so for the shining you can yell at us if you want to yell at us no it's not no with guests that are not

Amanda and Chris I don't feel comfortable yelling at them. Yeah. But maybe when we finish recording, I can yell at you guys about your opinions. I'd love it. The Shining is also going in, obviously. It sounds like all three of us are very pro The Shining

and that it probably changed our brain chemistry somewhat as kids. Absolutely. Oh, definitely. And I think too, it's so funny when MTV was a happening, everybody was all like, oh, these fast cuts, short attention span, blah, blah, blah. The kids making movies, shorter attention spans, blah, blah, blah. How wrong were they? They didn't know all these kids were watching The Shining and they were going to make these slow burn, high art artistic like horror movies it's it's a very cool way that that unfolded that's so interesting i had never really thought about it that way but like in fact a lot of what you saw at the time and a lot of those slasher movies that you guys talked about became increasingly like more addled by the mtv quick cutting style

but as we get into the 2010s and 2020s you're right the slow burn is much more of like a modern approach and just because we watch a lot of music videos doesn't mean we can't sit quietly and wait for something terrible to happen um usa was right next to mtv you just had to flip it down what channel are you gonna i believe they had the same parent company um thank god anything you want to share about the shining i mean you've talked about it many times before. You said you did the commentary. It's good? Yeah. When I was a kid, my neighbor, Jeff Carson, whose brother's name was Johnny Carson,

and we also had a Steve Martin on our street. It's weird. Brutal. It's tough. He saw it or lied that he saw it and told me because in the cartoon, I mean, in the commercial, when Jack breaks through the door and does the here's Johnny, he goes, yeah, this guy, and he gets his arm cut off and you know how arms grow back. So that's how he keeps chasing her. And now I just believed that until I saw it.

I believed, cause I had also seen, I think swamp thing when his arm actually does grow back. So I was just like, this was believable. I wish we lived in a world where people could lie to you about obviously wrong things and it was okay. Guess we don't. Where do you guys stand on Creepshow? You didn't cover it. Huge favorite of mine. Watch it on cable nonstop.

I love it. And this may be blasphemous, but I'm actually a bigger fan of Creepshow 2. I think that's just because it was always on cable and I just love those three segments in there i love both creep shows yeah creep show 2 has that really great like uh oil slick on the lake uh making people not be able to leave a raft uh or a dock that's okay that's amazing love the first creep show to uh creep show as well uh the um the fact that stephen king is an actor in it it's so oh my and it's the most endearing before if if the oscars awarded most endearing stephen king in 1982 yeah that's when he becomes the alien plant man, if I recall.

Yeah. Maybe. We'll see Creepshow in a minute. Well, hold on one second. Here, I got something. Whoa. We getting a live prop on the podcast? I don't know.

Paul just left. He's back now. So I'll describe it because I know that this is an audio format. Oh, my God. Wow. But this is a Creepshow VHS. You know when they came in the W, when Warner Brothers released them in those like big library style ones

and they would come with like a full Pauline Kael-esque essay like written on the back. But it did remind me with the shiny, I bought, there's only one. You can only get, and Matt and I are big font fans and credit fans. You can only get, and Matt and I are big font fans and credit fans. You can only get the blue font, blue colored font, last credits of The Shining on the original VHS.

So I bought it and I put it on a VCR and it ate it. My VCR got shinied. Jesus. It can never exist. That was a little diversion. No. Are you a VHS collector? I think COVID did a lot of crazy stuff to all of us.

I'd say about nine months in, I was like, I have to get all of these Warner Brothers. Like I bought maybe 12 of just like real favorites. There's no shame about physical media on this podcast. My girlfriend, I've got your back now. You got to have Superman 3 on VHS just in case the shit goes down. Yeah.

Can't stream it on HBO Max. I assume Creepshow is not going to go in even though it's beloved. What do you think? I vote for it it but i'm happy to be uh overruled i actually vote for creep show too but any representation of creep show would be fine for me but don't listen to me okay we're gonna put a i'm gonna put a yellow around it we've got two greens and a yellow to start out here um kujo comes next 83 83 big year for stephen king kujo from lew, The Dead Zone from Cronenberg,

and Christine from Carpenter. Now, my version of blasphemy in this conversation is the one that I don't like is Christine. Now, I just listened to your episode recently about this film. I thought you did a great job of explaining what's good about it. I still don't agree with you.

I don't really get it. I never, I actually tried reading it to see if I was missing something. I think I'm not very interested in 1950s culture. Yeah, I get that too. If you're out on that, it becomes a little bit harder to reckon with it. But Paul, I mean, I know you're a big fan.

Yeah, you know, I see the 10 as a, we got to be pretty narrow here in our picks. And as much as I love Christine, I wouldn't say that. Yeah, we can take that, put it into the garage or take it out of the garage what's the euphemism oh or i guess put it in the impound yeah we can take it to the junkyard and have it have it crushed into a small metal cube no we put it on the driveway under a cover and we end our insurance coverage on it.

What about Cujo? Because Cujo is really effective. It really works still. I love Cujo, but like Paul with Christine would understand why it might not go in the Pantheon, but I really like it. I think Matt likes it because he's a cat person.

He loves seeing a dog at the end have snot all over its eye and be in misery. And I hate cat's eye and pet cemetery. So yeah. And then Dead Zone, you said, right? That's the remaining class of 83? That's the remaining class of 83. How do you feel, Sean, about it?

Yeah, where do you come down on history on Cujo? Cujo and Christine are two movies that I didn't see until a little bit later in life. I didn't get those movies in the 80s. So when I thought, I heard you guys talking about Christine in particular, I was like, I just wasn't plugged into this when I was nine. And maybe if I did, I would have had a different feeling about it. And I love Carpenter. Love, love, love Carpenter.

Carpenter is how I got into your podcast. And I don't,enter. Love, love, love Carpenter. Carpenter is how I got into your podcast. And I don't, I don't know, for whatever reason to me, that's like the dud in Carpenter's filmography. And Cujo similarly, I saw it, you know,

older actually. My wife and I watched it early on in the pandemic and I was like, this is actually what it's like where it just feels like we're all being, we're like trapped in a car

and a rabid dog is trying to get to us and we're trying to stay out. The mist, Cujo 19. Yeah, it felt like it. The mist as well feels like that completely i mean that's the other thing is a lot of his films i think have been perfect for the last couple of years um about isolation and confusion and the dead zone is very similar too it's like no one understands what i'm feeling and what i'm going through um oh and the the shining was the uh uh comparison point everybody

was making the first couple months of COVID, I remember. Yes, exactly. I got my own Shining going on over here. All work and no play. Yeah, exactly. The Dead Zone's my favorite of these three. Me too. I'd be a hard in favor of that.

Me too. I think it'd be tough to keep that one out. We're about to re-enter a Cronenberg moment, gentlemen. Actually, tonight, I'm going to see Crimes of the Future, the new David Cronenberg movie. I watched a trailer for that and I've never really had a trailer make me say no. It just looks so bleak and dark.

Congrats. Yeah. That's really exciting. And he's getting back into his gross period, right? Yeah. I was trying to think of another artist who like, you know,

only, I'm stupid. So I don't know, but it's like only painted sunflowers. Then he went away from the sunflowers. And then at the very end, he came back and showed mouths melting. We love you. Cronenberg.

We know you're listening. He's a beautiful man. He, he is predicting mass walkouts at can in in the first five minutes of the film. So I'm just delighted. I can't wait to see this movie. Here's what I can't wait. To not see that movie,

but hear your take on it. I'm looking forward to it. Yes. You'll hear it on this podcast for sure. David Cronenberg, of that generation, has been the most right on. Made his movies independently, sold in the studio,

has no sort of blight of like, ooh, I did that for this. Dead Zone is like the closest it could have possibly gotten and it fully feels like a David Cronenberg movie. I mean, with the De Palma and the whole new Hollywood, Matt and I have talked about it. They all like made one movie that just went so over budget, colossally bombed, and it partly through hubris.

And then everybody had to tighten their belts after that. This guy's David Cronenberg. He makes a movie on a budget and it's completely his thing. I mean, it's closest maybe to what Paul Thomas Anderson does now. Just being able to make your own thing and people get on board.

His hubris was acting in Jason X. Is he in Jason X? Yes. Yeah, he gets killed by Jason X. He's always made really funny decisions about what acting roles he takes. Cronenberg's a riot. I think he was doing a favor for a a former editor or former director or something that yeah well the dead zone is um i don't know if it's a lot of fun it's actually

quite harrowing and uh and and beautifully made it is the but one of the least gross of the cronenberg movies very unique in its structure it's almost like three little one-act plays too yes oh and it's such a cinematic concept. The fact that you can go to what somebody's brain is. I mean, I'm sure, obviously it works in a novel. That's like probably one of the engines

of how it works. But in a movie, it's just like, it makes so sense. So much sense, especially when he goes back into the, I mean, there's a whole slasher

in the town portion. And for them to like go back cinematically into somebody's vision of a slasher movie was just so cool. So cool. Brilliant movie.

I would say it gets a little bit easier to do this exercise as we get past this early phase, because there's still some... I think there's going to be a bunch of movies here that we have emotional attachments to, but we can, in good faith, say this is important to the history of culture, even if it's important to the history of our adolescence if it's important to the history of our adolescence but we you mentioned children of the corn such an interesting movie produced by roger corman's company independently and the first stephen king story that was based on a short story and not a novel and this is where i think we see the industry identify that this guy has written

a lot of stuff and then a lot of that stuff could be made into other stuff especially when it's as thin as this very short short story too yes but they really had to pad out but you you guys are right that there's like there's actually a lot here and this movie is really good in its own stupid way and um i will say haunting as a child yeah really really creepy if you saw this under the age of 10 because the casting for the most part really just isaac in particular but malachi as well yeah yeah they're horrifying yeah and just uh filmed i grew up in iowa i was filmed like uh 30 miles away and so a lot of those streets look exactly like where I grew up. And there was such a connection. My sixth grade teacher's wife was one of the children of the corn. And

that connection to Hollywood is, well, how me and Matt, we got our foot in the door. That's beautiful. Do you have such a deep relationship to it that you want to put it in i i this is a hard case to put in i think because the concept is so great but the execution is the polar opposite i even think that this is the prime example of stephen king's left turns not working for him it is enough for a town of children to murder the parents you don't need a monster i don't think or the specter of a monster is great but when you actually get into a monster, I don't think. Or the specter of a monster is great. But when you actually get into a monster, it's this sort of equivalent of every Marvel movie turning into CG madness. Just here we are with another monster when you've got murderous religious kids in a cornfield. What more do you want, you crazies? You make a great point. And that's something

that I've always bumped on in his books too, where the end they become these phantasmagoric absurd stories where you no longer feel like you're in the real world and i know that there's payoff for that but whenever you see it rendered in the movies it almost never works no that was the downfall of the new it i really liked the first one and the second one really just turned me off so children of the corn's out fire starter is interesting um not a good movie in my opinion um very very 1984 paced where it's like it's one hour and 40 minutes and feels like it is 12 to 18 hours long but but some pretty some pretty sick kills you know the ending is really pretty damned effective

I don't know if you guys have seen this one recently and it's back in the news I haven't seen it since I was a young Firestarter myself it was yeah college I think the last time I saw hey man if you remember watching Firestarter

in college, you weren't really there. Easy passes for us. 1985, having just seen Cat's Eye, I can assure you that it's not going in. This is another anthology movie. Drew Barrymore, right? Drew Barrymore and James Woods, among many others. The great Alan King.

James Woods has to quit cigarettes. That's right. He has to quit cigarettes in the opening act of this film. Not a great follow-up for Teague in the Kingverse. No, yeah. And if we were going to be picking an anthology, it'd be a creep show, not a cat's eye. Agree.

So Silver Bullet, you guys covered Silver Bullet, right? Mm-hmm. So talk to me about it because I've seen it. I don't have a big relationship to it. What do you guys covered Silver Bullet right so talk to me about it because you know I've seen it I don't have a big relationship to it what do you guys love about it

I had watched it a long time ago and remember having a fondness for it and it was one of the my picks because I wanted to rewatch it and Matt and I

were both like delighted by that it was kind of a backdoor slasher like it was a secret slasher it was just basically the werewolf was going out

and slashing people every night. They're trying to find out. And if you, this is not an ironic comment, if you love Gary Busey, it's a really great, Gary Busey, and of all the movies we watched, Matt and I just were remarking on this, hands down, the best actors and the best performances uh uh than most horror movies as much as uh i love some of the cast of friday 13th part 3 uh uh having you know uh uh gary bucey

just really elevates i know that sounds silly but it's like a trick. I had never seen it before, and where you say it was a backdoor slasher, it's kind of a frontdoor Amblin film, so it does feel like the real bridge between Stand By Me to a lot of his darker stuff. I'd be hard-pressed to put it in the 10, though, because

there's something outer edges of King in this that doesn't feel fully representative or something. I don't know. But it's a really enjoyable watch. One thing that's so funny about this one, I never realized this. So Dan Adias is the director of this movie. Yeah.

Who is a hugely prolific television director. Has directed hundreds of episodes of television, including multiple episodes of shows that are airing right now. Game of Thrones, a bunch of the big Game of Thrones. Big Game of Thrones, The Wire, Six Feet Under, lots of the HBO series over the years. He directed The Sopranos episodes. This is the only movie that he directed. I remember that when we watched this, going and checking the filmography and seeing that. That's so weird. What's the one connection? It's Gary Busey. That'll drive anybody.

I wonder if it's like the in-show business equivalent of somebody who leaves their small town to go to Los Angeles. This happens within Los Angeles. Somebody goes out to Los Angeles, they give it a year. They're like, you know what? I'm going to go back home where i feel happy and safe and uh just just run a run a shoe shop at home at my hometown probably somebody's like i like tv directing i got out there had to talk five coked out actors out of their trailers i'm going back to tv but his version of having a shoe shop in his small hometown

is directing The Sopranos I mean he's still doing great stuff but oh I'm sure every TV director who possibly is listening to this loves hearing this comparison from somebody who's never directed and is talking like an asshole about it

don't worry if they listen to this show they hear me talk in the exact same way every single week. Okay, good, good. Okay, so Cat's Eyes Out, Silver Bullets Out. Stand By Me, a tough one, right? Because as I said,

I don't love this movie, but it is truly beloved. It is among the most beloved things that King has ever been associated with. Matt, you seem to indicate that maybe you don't love it as much either, but I feel like if we don't include it, we'll also be assassinated.

No, I don't dislike it or like it. I just don't love it as much either but i feel like if we don't include it we'll also be assassinated when people know i don't dislike it or like it i just haven't seen it in years and i think it should be in there because culturally it's so significant that just quotable and also it was if i'm not mistaken the first time stephen king went to the movies that wasn't a horror movie per se right so? That's correct. So that's significant in its own right. Yeah, and if we're just picking these in terms of... Yeah, I loved it growing up. I've rewatched it a couple of times as an adult and it gets less effective. But it did kind of, you know,

if these just get included almost outside of Stephen King movies, like what were their contributions to movies? Like, I feel like Carrie sort of invented a little bit the modern high school movie and The Shining invented this like slow burn, hypnotic horror movie, that prestige horror movie that we love. And, oh my God, show me one movie before Stand By Me that was this Wonder Years, Sandlot, Boomer talks wistfully over images of the 50s. Like, if Stephen King wasn't born, who knows if those weird movies would have been made. We'd also never have a chain reaction vomit scene too. So that's worth something.

Well, really kicked it off. It's also the introduction of Rob Reiner to Stephen King, who would later name his production company after Stephen King imagined property. And then became like one of those logos that you'd see at the beginning of a movie. And you'd be like,

we're in good, we're in good shape here. Castle rock. I know I'm going to get something. I like before I ever knew that it was connected to stephen king that is saying that means the seinfeld gang is in the stephen king universe yes actually kramer is it i don't know if you you guys didn't finish it chapter two no it's too bad that's the big um it slides in through the door uh maximum overdrive same year stand by me could there be two different movies than these two films this is of course stephen king's directorial debut during an extremely coked out phase for mr

king and he's spoken openly about this period in his life one thing i'll say about this movie that i like is that it's got like 100 ACDC songs. Love ACDC. So do I. Just without any remorse whatsoever. One thing I don't like about the movie is almost everything else, which I find to be incoherent and weird.

The only case I'd make for this, because I do love this movie, is that if you are going to represent Stephen King at all, almost out of duty, you have to put in what is possible on the other side of like, if you're going to make the atom bomb, you have to understand all its uses. And as a cautionary tale,

I think maximum overdrive has to go in there as a floor, as a really fun floor. I love that case. I'll say yellow or red light for this one. I love that case. I'll say yellow or red light for this one. I understand. Even though the end credits have you shook me all night long and I think

if every movie ended with the end credits having you shook me all night long, like the test scores, every studio would be like, every movie's getting 95% now. Just the fact that the waitress with the squibs on her make her look like she's got a fake rib cage under her

dress. Oh, I love it. I love it. We love it. Okay, I'm going to keep it yellow for now. I love that case that you made for us. Let's say a yellow green, a kind of chartreuse. Just let it edge right on up there. Chartreuse. It shall be the color right on up there chartreuse it'll it shall

be the color of absinthe um 1987 the running man you guys love it oh i love it i think i think it has to go in there because it's pure sci-fi you don't get anything else like this okay paul were you convinced at all when you were pushed on this one um I loved it but I I wouldn't be convinced uh for for 10 oh my god

that means we're going yellow again here I mean Richard Dawson is uh uh essential to this but I don't know

if he's enough to make this green what about if I threw in a Jesse Ventura boy I do love the body I love the body a very funny Jesse Ventura

we when we watched Running Man I was like he's legit hilarious. Why does he not? And a real opera singer. He's doing real opera arias dressed in a giant electrical LED fat suit. What more do you maniacs want? Are you even human? No, I understand.

I understand. Keep it yellow're just we're gonna have some hard decisions to make yeah we're gonna choose that baby though put it up there maximum order okay creep show two you've made your case declined it's a very fun it's really hard with the anthologies i understand because there's there are always three stories in these anthology movies we'll talk about another one very shortly one of them is always great one of them is always solid and one of them is always solid and one of them is always bad.

And then you get to the end of the movie and you're like, was that a good time? I think it was a good time, but I have to remember back to the story before. And so I'm always

kind of mixed on them. I do like the Creepshow movies a lot, but I just don't feel like that they're iconic to the story. It's hard to find a bad one in Creepshow too,

but it's okay. Go on. All right. Fair enough. Well, are the interstitials as good? No. No.

Well, there you go. Yeah. The glue that holds it together is, yeah. Pet Sematary. Now, very important one. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like one of the first ones we've mentioned since like 83 that had some return

to prestige. It's a nice Paramount Pictures release. I saw it, I mean, when I was young, behind a doorway, popping my head out as my older sisters watched it. It was like, and then pop my head in right when Fred Gwynn's ankles getting slid open. And that wasn't even on my TV. Actor Fred Gwynn was in my living room getting ankles getting slid open. And that wasn't even on my TV.

Actor Fred Gwynn was in my living room getting his ankles slid. Wow. Everything did happen in Iowa, man. Interesting thing about this one is like, one, it's one of the first, it's really one of the first mainstream American horror movies directed by a woman. Mary Lambert.

Yeah, that's true. And it was a huge hit. This movie made $ million dollars interesting i remember this this was the first time where i was old enough to anticipate and be disappointed by a stephen king movie and most people at that time i remember kind of saying it's another one like children of the corn although it's way better than that where the concept is so good and some of the elements like an undead, adorable kid and a cat coming back, but ultimately didn't deliver for me.

What'd you guys think of the remake? Yeah, same thing. Yeah. Yeah, they're both kind of mid for me as well. I think some people will disagree with us, but... I know, I know. It could be, you know, it does seem to be like the things that separate these are just if a premise is

cinematic. That's right. If Dead Zone can be, you can pull what that vibe is off with a movie. Pet Sematary, I could see it being compelling as a book, but it's hard on a Friday night being like,

let's go out and watch the child death movie. That's not a good title for a film watch the child death movie. That's not a good title for a film, the child death movie. Yeah, Pet Sematary is better. If you're working on a script, don't name your movie that. Okay, 1993 movies, two that I think are very easy to discard, Tales from the Dark Side of the Movie, which is a movie

that I like, actually, an anthology that I think is pretty fun, but in the grand scheme of this conversation, I feel like maybe... This is a Christian Slater one right uh yes yes yes christian slater and uh robert klein i think a deborah harry's in there too yes very good cast i've never seen it this is oh it's it's i think they've maybe lost the rights to creep show or something this is like effectively creep show three because it's george romero and stephen king stuff and then uh I think they maybe lost the rights to Creepshow or something. This is like effectively Creepshow 3 because it's George Romero and Stephen King stuff.

And then... But yeah, the... And Julianne Moore is in this as well. This might have been one of the first times I ever saw Julianne Moore. She's in the Lot 249, the one with Christian Slater. This actually is a pretty good movie. Wow, it does sound intriguing. We'll probably do a second season of King Fling

and that sounds like one we should throw in there early Buscemi too it is yeah it's fun I don't think it's essential but it's pretty cool and then Graveyard Shift which I also just watched for the first time this year which I thought was pretty disappointing it was a movie set in a mine schlock

pretty schlocky is it a big rat or multiple rats right? It's just like a rat. Is it a big rat or multiple rats? I forget. Yeah, it's like a giant rat bat monster. And it's like gross, but it's only really in the frame for more like two seconds at a time because it can't, you know,

the puppeteering doesn't really work well. And it's pretty low grade. I feel like I remember loving the setup a lot. I could be misremembering it but it was like over labor day weekend so the day was it was going to be closed a day longer which meant you were trapped in a day longer something like that and and also just the idea of something on labor day when it's all like hot and gross and stuff i was like oh the setting's all great but oh we've been searching for all the different holiday movies too we may have finally found our labor day holiday movies i don't think the audience penetration is very deep on

graveyard shift if i'm being totally honest but uh no i don't think anybody's on the flip side um you guys did cover misery on you on your show and my wife just wandered down here into the garage where i record podcasts and she i you know i do this very sad thing where i stack all the blu-rays and dvds of the films i'm going to cover on I you know I do this very sad thing where I stack all the blu-rays and DVDs the films I'm going to cover on an upcoming episode and I stacked up all my king stuff and I was like can you just look at that and tell me which one you of these you'd want to watch and she went

misery yeah misery is one that I feel like has withheld its power over the last 30 years and it's still great and people still love it how do you feel 100% it's got to go in. Perfect. Easy, easy, easy.

Easy green. Perfect movie. Great performances. One of those things too, and you guys talked about this so well, like all the people who could have been the James Caan part and how it worked out so wonderfully

that it was James Caan, even though he was at a low moment in his career. Great stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And if people I know, listeners probably are

fans of All the President's Men where the big magic trick that's pulled off is just how can they make conversations in a room compelling? William Goldman wrote Misery. It's the same magic trick. It's really amazing that you're like, you forget. You're like, I'm in the same.

And then obviously Kathy Bates is amazing in it and uh how about the supporting cast too richard farnsworth and francis sternhagen yeah when we were re-watching it too the thing that like really kind of um was maybe what stood out from other stephen king stuff was just the central relationship was a little more psychologically twisted. The point where it got like, she loves him so much that she's hobbling in him so he can't ever leave her. She's like, I know somebody like you

would never like somebody like me. I mean, that's just all very compelling. It's beautiful. It's also one of those great self-reflexive things where this is Stephen King, a beloved writer, writing about what it's like to of those great self-reflexive things where this is stephen king a beloved writer writing about what it's like to deal with your fans and what it's like to be beloved for something that maybe you don't even feel great about all the time you know and that character is so interesting too and rob reiner uh saying uh i'm not just meathead that's

right exactly and stephen king had been in a motorcycle accident at this point. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so lots of personal reflection going on in that one. Really good book too. Misery is great. Misery. Okay. 91.

We're going to have to move a little bit quicker guys. I'm very sorry to say. But it's still fun, but yes, we'll, we'll, we'll do quick. Yeah.

So sleepwalkers, you mentioned McGarris before Paul, this, it might be the craziest of all the stephen king movie adaptations um just the like transmogrification of the characters into these like blobby practical effects figures mother and son fucking um yeah trying to avoid getting killed by cats might not be the correct word because it's an original screenplay that's right creation great point although many people have said that this was based on like an unfinished novel or story

that he started writing and he was like i can't figure this out and then they're like let's make a movie out of it um and they did what's the context of the mother and son having sex they are uh i guess creatures that are shapeshifters that are trying to live forever and they can only do so. And if they drink the life energy of virgin girls and they are also susceptible to the destruction of cats. And also it's an Oedipal story. I don't know.

That's how you live forever. It's a, yeah. Have a great Thursday night, Matt. I'm trying to figure that out. Sleepwalkers is out, but I think it's a lot of fun. It's a relic of a different

time in horror movies. Lawnmower Man. I don't think of this as a Stephen King movie. I like the Lawnmower Man, but for whatever reason, I feel like it has no relationship to Stephen King, even though it does. What do you guys think? Neither did his lawyer. Hey-o. When we were picking these movies, for some reason

I didn't pick this one because i somehow it skipped my consciousness but i absolutely would have put this in my five to cover and next time we do it i will it is also one of the rare science fiction movies we mentioned you said the running man so it seems like you have a little bit of a sci-fi thing going on i think i do but also the eyes of jeff fahey come on i know he's wonderful. What happened to him? Why is he not at the center of movie culture? He showed up on Lost, right? He was on Lost.

He did. He was very good. He was a pilot who crash landed or something. Anyhow. He should be in everything. The Dark Half. Good movie.

God, I don't know if I've ever seen Dark Half. This is the first one that I... Really? Put it in. No, no. We can't put it in.

It is a George Romero movieero movie though and a tim hutton performance that is very good um but it's it's pretty low awareness so no also 1993 needful things personal favorite wow do you make a case i don't i can't reasonably say that it will go in but i like the idea one i love when a man comes to town you know any story where it's like a stranger wanders into town and usually it's Clint Eastwood and he starts shooting people but in this case it's a guy who starts giving people their own dreams right it starts making them have the things that they always wanted which of course come to destroy them more fable than a horror movie which has like an absolutely anarchic ending I love the way that this movie

ends it's like a little it's also pretty schlock. A lot of these 90s movies are pretty schlocky. But I think it's a lot of fun. It's also not going in. Two reds for 1993. 1994 is The Shawshank Redemption. It's funny. The Shawshank Redemption, if you had never heard of it and sat down and watched it on a Thursday, you'd be like, this is the greatest

film ever created. But it now has an extraordinary culture of fandom around it. And now many people feel it's deeply film ever created. But it now has an extraordinary culture of fandom around it. And now many people feel it's deeply overrated. What do you guys think about The Shawshank Redemption?

Yeah, where are we at on the backlash right now? Is there a backlash to the backlash to the backlash? Is it still number one on IMDb? Is that still the thing?

Yeah, that feels strong for it. But it's good. I remember seeing it and being like, this is a very good movie. Oh, the first time I saw it it knocked's good. I remember seeing it and being like, this is a very good movie. I think it's a great movie. Oh, the first time I saw it, it knocked me out.

And I think it is overrated, but that's not the movie's fault. I think it's a fantastic movie. But whatever this zeitgeisty thing that's happening is not its fault. It's not. And I think it automatically has to go in. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Never seen it. I don't think The Mangler's going in, though, from 1995. No. This is The Washing Machine movie. You guys seen The Washing Machine movie directed by Tobey Hooper? No. um never i don't think the mangler is going in though from 1995 no this is the washing machine movie you guys seen the washing machine movie directed by toby hooper no but we watched mr mom and then that was your working title for mr mom actually uh mr maytag do you guys like delores clayborne that is a big gap in mine and when i was looking at this list because as we all know we all have young daughters and mine's fairly still new I didn't have a lot of movie watching time and that was

be the one that I would have watched because I want to see that it's got Jennifer Jason Lee it feels like it has to be good is it it's good it also may now be a little bit overrated because it's not as supernatural some of those other stories and that this became kind of a moment where people like actually Stephen King is a wonderful storyteller about the American family but it does have a sinister aspect to it and about kind of like pain in family history

I think it's just on the outside looking in personally I think it's like in the 10 to 20 range but not in the top 10 Paul any thoughts? I'd say it's the same yeah admirable but maybe not the top 10. Paul, any thoughts? I'd say it's the same. Yeah. Admirable, but maybe not the funnest horror movie watch. We're going to move very quickly through the

late 2000s here. Okay. Thinner is an amazing movie trailer that I watched over and over again and is not a good movie. Yeah, the trailer should be in the top 10, but not the movie itself. Thinner. Thinner. I can't get that out of my head. Yeah, the trailer should be in the top 10, but not the movie itself. Dinner. Dinner.

I can't get that out of my head. Oh, thinner was said up and down amongst my friends. Thinner. Even if it was like, could you get some paint thinner for me? 1997 is the Night Flyer. And you guys seen this? It was an HBO movie. No,'s out apt pupil i'm not a fan i am a fan but really i understand that again no no other humans are i liked the novella yeah for whatever reason i couldn't click with the with the movie the movie's

not great but i love the novella so i I love that whole book, Different Seasons. It's actually my favorite Stephen King book. And ironically, it's the Richard Bachman books, right? Where he wrote under the pen name, I believe. Yes. And I think just because I'm such a huge World War II movie fan and history buff, and I love that. And just even getting to see a version of that on screen was enough for me but I recognize

it's not great where do you guys stand on the green mile I haven't seen it but I remember it being pretty schmaltzy I mean I have seen it but I haven't seen it for a long it's been a while yeah it is very schmaltzy yeah yeah we pointed out uh we'll get to the mist in a moment but it's funny at Frank Darabont's uh adaptations are kind of like backwards to what you think a director would do. You think they do The Mist first, and then eventually graduate to The Shawshank Redemption, but it's like Shawshank Redemption to The Green Mile. Mist is rules, but yeah.

It's a great point. Don't love The Green Mile. It's a really great point. Yeah, The Green Mile is out, and that concludes the 20th century for Stephen King movies. The 21st century opens with hearts in Atlantis. I'll, I'll say right now,

openly, this is, this is my gap. I've never seen this one. Yeah. I haven't seen it. Look at that. The three of us,

let's put it in. It's not going in. You know, you mentioned the floor earlier, Matt with maximum overdrive. Yes. Are you sure the floor isn't dream catcher from 2003 and Lawrence Kasdan? I've been wanting to watch that, Matt, with Maximum Overdrive. Are you sure the floor isn't Dreamcatcher from 2003 and Lawrence Kasdan? I've been wanting

to watch that. But I don't think you'll get more of a fun floor than Maximum Overdrive. Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. Really? This is a shit demon movie. This flies in the face of our, if just in our tour, Helms and Stephen King movie are alright theory.

Lawrence Kasdan could not elevate this. And a good cast all right theory. Yeah, that's true. And a good cast, right? Damien Lewis. Incredible cast. Literally one of the more confounding movie properties in the history of movies. This movie is bizarre. Have Maximum Overdrive battle it out

for the floor entry with Dreamcatchers. It'd be a great double feature about Stephen King being on drugs and writing. 2004 Secret Window, directed by David Koepp. He accomplished screenwriter. It's a pretty solid adaptation.

Not one of my favorites, personally, though. You guys, any thoughts? That's a pretty workman. Workman. Yeah. Riding the Bullet, also pretty workman. Another Mick Garris movie. Not going in. Yeah. 2007. Two solid ones.

Maybe even better than solid. 1408, which was actually a hit. Yes, yes. Which I think people like, right? It's a good watch. I wouldn't call it great, but it's fun.

If we had to pick a nadir, a nadir, a nadir, a nadir of a, of Stephen King movie output, I would say it's the two thousands. It seems like each decade at least has one that you can kind of really say, Ooh, it's a classic,

but 1408 is good. I, if we, if I was going to go in, I'd say it's a good example, unless I'm forgetting one. Was there something in a couple of years? There is.

Well, The Mist. Yeah, The Mist. Oh, holy shit. Of course. Yeah. The Mist to me is, you know, this is really one of the great movies of this decade. I agree. Let's put The Mist in.

Yeah, The Mist has to go. And I love The Mist. And I know all of us love 2007 as a year. It is a total 2007 movie. So downbeat. But their little hearts, they didn't know it was going to get so much worse. That's why it's so sweet to watch those. They're like, aww.

Let's just do a quick recap thus far. So we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 greens. Yeah. We have 1, 2, 3 two sounds like my kind of skittles three yellows and that's it so we have 10 candidates right now we're still going 2009 dolan's cadillac have not seen this movie no me either uh-uh 2013 the carry remake i saw it but you know if it's going to be a contest of the carries no it's out yeah 14 is mercy and a good marriage we're in a real low moment here yeah king what's what's going on here with this why why has he moved out of it in this period it's not until in 2016 we get the aforementioned cell which is certainly not going in then 17 and then all of a sudden he's back we get back baby we get the dark

tower it gerald's game 1922 all in the same year now a part of this i think is the onslaught of the netflix original movie and so we get original films on gerald's game and 1922 something that might not have happened in the old days of studio hollywood But we also get the long gestating The Dark Tower, which is a colossal failure. And It, which is one of the more surprising adaptations of Stephen King in over a decade and was a huge success. And like you said, Matt, really good. It's a tough one because can you separate It

from the second movie? It's not like Creepshow and Creepshow 2. Those are fine. They're on their own. But I almost tend to take them on their own and then I don't want to put it in. If it's the first one, I do want to put it in. What do you guys think?

I think we can just put one in if you want. Okay. Yeah, and I would say I'm not even the biggest fan of the movie, but I think it should go in because it's like just a perfect example of a major big budget studio movie. And it's really the revival. Hold off in every department. Yeah.

Yeah. It brought in the revival, I think, of him. It did. And if you were a Stephen King fan, oh my God, to see it treated so respectfully and get two different volumes and stuff. They must have been in heaven.

I have to say I didn't mention this at the top but we're not including the made for TV miniseries here. I think if we were we would have included

a couple of things that we talked about. One thing we didn't talk about was Salem's Lot which is the Toby Hooper two-part adaptation. Which they're currently

remaking, right? They are currently it's coming out this fall actually. Salem's Lot one which is the Toby Hooper two-part adaptation. Which they're currently remaking, right? They are currently, it's coming out this fall, actually. Salem's Lot, one of his best books. I think that adaptation from CBS in the 70s, one of the best adaptations of anything he's done.

One of the great monsters in Stephen King lore. If it were a proper film, we would have put it in, but we're not putting it in here. I just want to flag that. That's cool. And the same goes for The Stand

and Tommy Knockers and all those other ones. Gerald just want to flag that. Yeah, that's cool. And the same goes for the stand and Tommy knockers and all those other ones. Gerald's game in 1922. Gerald's game is, is considered quite good. I don't know if you guys have had a chance to see that one, the Flanagan adaptation

that precedes Dr. Sleep. I, I liked it and I love the Flanagans. Don't paint me with this non Flanagan brush. don't lie about how much you like Flanagan.

We're almost at the end here. Just because of my doctor's sleep. Okay. Okay, 2019, another big year. A couple years go by after the It wave. We get the Pet Sematary remake,

which I think we're all kind of mixed on. Yeah. In the Tall Grass from Vincenzo Natale, the mastermind behind Cube and Splice. You guys up on those movies?

Oh, Splice, yeah. Wow, Cube. Both of those are knockouts but no yeah yeah in the tall grass is okay it's okay it's very natali though that's all about being subsumed by something huh you asked me my college roommate was in the tall grass oh dear um okay sorry in chapter two's out doctor sleeps out even though you guys so you're you're just taking the hit on that i mean we're doing this together right i've made some executive calls but i want to be respectful i think that's going to be controversial because a lot of people

ride hard for that movie but yeah nice yeah we'll we'll we'll weather the storm of controversy yeah i'm gonna read you what we have right now. We have some tough decisions to make, okay? Are we done? Is that all of them? Well, we have, of course, Firestarter premiering

this weekend. And then we'll have the Salem's Lot adaptation in the fall. And we can circle back and do another two-hour pod about this. But here's what we have.

Okay. We have Carrie. Matt's out on it, but Paul and I insist. No, I'm in on it being in i think it should be it okay but you're out on brian de palma being alive i want the man in a pine box the shining is in creep show is a yellow the dead zone is a green stand by me as a green maximum overdrive is a yellow the running man is

a yellow misery is green the shawshank redemption is green the mist is green and it is green so i believe that means we have one two three four five six seven and eight greens three yellows we need to cut one yellow what are the yellows again creep show maximum overdrive and the running man so what is getting cut now did you notice we we yellowed kujo but i noticed that didn't get put in there that's how did we yell okay that's okay no i don't think no because we're only making your work harder. We didn't chartreuse Cujo. We yell at it. So I think we got to go to chartreuses, like you're saying.

Yeah. Okay. So... I would argue for Creepshow because I think that's like... You wouldn't have Tales from the Crypt, this sort of like modern version

of the EC Comics vibe. That all pours forth from Stephen King's brain. Yeah. I don't think. Yeah, I think that's a that all pours forth from Stephen King's brain yeah I think yeah I think that's a strong argument yeah so we're keeping Creepshow that means we have one film left to put into this hall of fame and it's either Maximum Overdrive or The Running Man yeah and in some ways I feel like this is going to be up to you, because those are two passion points for you. Okay. Okay. So think long and hard. And when we put Maximum Overdrive in and then a fiery mob

insists on canceling this pod, I just want you to know that you're responsible. This is not what I came on here for, to be the most hated man in podcasting. Listen, I know I made a strong case for putting in a fun floor as representative of all of King's spectrum, but at the expense of a solid and entertaining and somewhat really schlocky fun sci-fi movie, which in its own right could almost represent the lower tier fun of Stephen King, I'll go with The Running Man. Hey, all right. I'm so happy for you. Your, your better judgment prevailed.

Oh, I didn't want to deal with that, but I don't, I'm like Amanda. I don't check my Twitter ads for that kind of harassment anyway. Well, guys, uh,

do you think I can get to West Hollywood in nine minutes for a haircut from East Los Angeles? Sounds like you got to run. Oh, I got to be the running man. Do your thing. Do your thing. It was, it's only, God, you can hate me. No, Paul, we're wrapping up anyway.

We did it. We did it. Such a blast. Bye, Paul. As soon as you leave, we're going to take all your entries out and put our own. Yeah. Plan on how you're going to figure out how to like pour a bucket of

pig's blood on me. Have a good haircut. That's our place to stop, guys. That's perfect. Paul, thank you so much. Matt, thank you so much. My pleasure.

Listen to With Gorley and Russ. Go see your bands live and in person. What else do you want to promote? Oh, well, Paul's band

is Don't Stop or We'll Die. Mine is Townland. We're not in the same band, but maybe someday. Yeah, check them out. Thank you so much for having us. I truly do love this show. Thanks, guys.

Thank you. Thanks to Matt. Thanks to Paul. Listen to With Gorley and Rust. Thanks to Paul. Listen to With Gourley and Rust. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture because next week, Amanda's back.

That's right. We're drafting again. CR is going to be with us. We're talking about the movies of 1992, a critical year in 90s movie history. Please stay tuned for that, and we'll see you then