The Big Picture - The Steven Soderbergh Rankings, Featuring Steven Soderbergh!

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

Acclaimed filmmaker and 'Big Picture' hero Steven Soderbergh returns with a new film on HBO Max, 'Let Them All Talk.' Sean and Amanda discuss his new movie, the news that he will be one of the producers of next year's Academy Awards ceremony, and rank his 30-plus films and TV projects over the years (0:45). Then Soderbergh himself joins Sean for a wide-ranging conversation about his career, Hollywood, HBO Max's big decision, and more (52:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Steven Soderbergh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Steven Soderbergh. Later in this episode, I spoke with the great filmmaker and big picture hero whose new film, Let Them All Talk, starring Meryl Streep,

can be seen on HBO Max right now. We also talked about his films, The Future of Theatrical, movie stars, Mank, The Good of Theatrical, movie stars, Mank, The Good German, his annual culture diaries, and a whole lot more. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, Amanda and I will be ranking his 32 films and three TV series. It's all coming up from The Big Picture. Okay, Amanda, speaking of pegs, we had been planning to do this Steven Soderbergh episode. I interviewed Steven Soderbergh, and then 30 minutes after we got off of our Zoom call,

a piece of news came across the transom, and that that is that Steven Soderbergh is going to be one of the producers of next year's Academy Awards ceremony. What do you think about that news? I love it. My number one guy and my number one awards show. Thank you, Steven Soderbergh. We needed this. Lord knows the Oscars needed it.

Just A plus for me. The happiest, like the most exclamation points that I've sent you really or used in any context in 2020. I think we had been softly dreading the Oscars next year because of the amount of films that were rolling out and what an award show looks like during a pandemic and all these other things. This news comes along the producer, Jesse Collins, the Oscar nominated producer, Stacey Scherr, who has worked with Steven Soderbergh in the past. And of course, the man himself, who is well known to be one of the most innovative, mischievous, thoughtful, creative figures in Hollywood for the last 30 years. And of course, the man himself, who is well known to be one of the most innovative,

mischievous, thoughtful, creative figures in Hollywood for the last 30 years. And so what better way to explore and exploit some of that creativity than by revivifying something, reinventing something, hopefully, that desperately needs some reinvention. I think this is just plainly great news, at least for this podcast. I think it's great news for the Oscars. I'm thrilled that Steven Soderbergh was willing to do it. I mean, I think traditionally the Oscars, certainly hosting the Oscars, have been understood to be a thankless task.

And we were dreading it in large part because I think we couldn't conceptualize what it would be. There is the physical challenges of, can you have all those people in a room in April of 2020 no idea what will it look like how will what films will qualify what films will be rewarded who will have seen them will people even care you know it's been such a strange year for the movie industry and um just having Steven Soderbergh reinvented is I couldn't even think of something of that is such a idea, but I'm like, oh, great. Now I want to know what it's going to be. He's completely, if it's just a one-off, if it's just like the very weird 2021 Oscars as conceived by Steven Soderbergh, that will be delightful in a lot of ways. That is just all you can hope for. And then perhaps we move on with

like a brave new industry and a brave new Oscars going forward. But I think it's really cool that Steven Soderbergh, who definitely did not have to do this, was like, sure, I'll make this my problem. I think it's a testament to the way that he's managed his career. And we'll see that as we talk through some of his filmography, which is that he's willing to take risks. He's willing to think about classical things and make them anew. You know, that's one of the things I love about his work. Even when we were having a conversation, he's been saying recently that all he wants to do with his career now

is make genre movies starring movie stars, which is our favorite thing in the world. But the way that he does it is unexpected and unpredictable. And I'm hopeful that his version of an award show will be the same way. I don't know. There's not much more to say about it. We're going to be able to preview this event

for another five months. So it's at least given me a reason to be excited about the Oscars I think we should also just note that the headshot that was used in the announcement which I am assuming was submitted by Steven Soderbergh himself was Steven Soderbergh and Sergeant Pepper's gear once again my hero an electric pink that's a is that a shade that you like yeah it's very on trend. It's not quite millennial pink, but it's a great art color. Grabs the eye. A plus. Great piece of news. Speaking of electric pink, that might be an appropriate color to describe Let Them All Talk, which is a fascinating new movie from Steven Soderbergh, which as I said,

you can watch right now on HBO Max, which is the company with which he is assigned to, to make future projects. And this is an unusual movie. It's certainly a first for him. And it's the kind of movie that we do not see very often, mostly because it stars three women who I all believe are in their 70s, Meryl Streep, Diane Wiest, and Candace Bergen. And they play three women who convene on the Queen Mary 2 and reunite and settle old scores. Meryl Streep in particular is the star of this movie. She plays a famous author. And it's a really fascinating bit of business because I feel like a lot of the conversation that we've been having about movies

lately is like Wonder Woman 1984 and Mangrove and what's important, what's theatrical, what's going on. And this is, I feel like once again, Steven Soderbergh just saying, I have an unusual idea for a movie and I just want to make it. And I'll probably be able to pull it off in like a month. And then hopefully you guys will enjoy it. What did you think of Let Them All Talk? Same. It is just a complete surprise, I think, even though what you said describes it pretty accurately.

It stars Meryl Streep, Diane Wiest, and Candace Bergen. It is filmed on a cruise ship, and it's a lot of talking, and it is about women of a certain age facing their life and each other's. And that's not like 100% out of character for Soderbergh in the sense of people talking in unusual settings and people who aren't normally focused on in cinema or considered heroes, though that's usually with a criminal background or something in his movies. But in this case, it's just some old ladies. But it definitely has that feel of I'd like to try it, which is also Steven Soderbergh of why not? I have this idea and wouldn't it be fun if I could get everyone together and I could convince a cruise ship and a very fancy cruise ship at that to let me film. And we'll just see what happens. And more often than not, when Steven Soderbergh like sees what happens, it does work

and it's exciting. I think this really works. I think it's quieter than you would expect from a Steven Soderbergh film. I think that because a large part of it is improvised, there is not that neatness of dialogue, which is actually interesting. And again, for someone who likes to do new things, I think it's cool to see Soderbergh kind of figure out what to do with the emotions and what these actresses like throw into the mix. But, you know, you you watched it and slacked me and we're just like, OK, so it's just a Deborah Eisenberg short story. And it does it feels contained. It feels like we did this and we thought through some feelings and now we move on, which you just don't, filmmakers of his caliber aren't doing that in any more, in any capacity. That's exactly right.

I mean, I sent that, I sent you that message, not as a diminution of the work or a criticism. I was just like, there's just, there are no movies like this. There are no movies that are aspiring to this level of intimacy of this level of, I don't know, transience in a way you know it's very much about like a passing moment in people's lives and like reckoning with what had come before but the ways in which people are reckoning with it is very low toned and is very specific to these characters it's a character piece in a lot of ways and most of his movies are character pieces but you're right they're usually about like people putting a heist together

or you know people who are crusading lawyers or, you know, people who are drug czars, you know, and we think of his work, we think of these like grand movies, but he's in this fascinating phase. This is his third consecutive movie for a streaming service. His last two movies, which we talked about on this show were made for Netflix. And he seems to have nestled into this comfortable space with a mid-tier, maybe even a lower tier budget and the credibility and the creativity and the eagerness to work with famous people, great performers, and just get them on board with a fairly low investment to come and make what seems like a cool project. And I don't know. I mean, isn't that the dream? As I think

about the rest of my life, I'm like, boy, I would just love to work with the best of the best on something that isn't that stressful. And people will see it and say, oh, that was pretty cool. I liked it. You know, like I, I admire his, his ability to transition into this phase. Yeah. And also that you would enjoy doing it and that the, that the work that you get to do challenges you or is something new. And then, um, and at the end of the day that you get to do challenges you or is something new. And then at the end of the day, you get to move on to the next thing. It's absolutely my dream. I have spent a lot of time on Candice Bergen's Instagram recently, which I really, really, really recommend. Just like separate from this film, just check out Candice Bergen's Instagram.

There's a lot of like dog art happening. But there are photos and films from the filming of Let Them All Talk on her Instagram. She kind of chronicles it, you know, as a woman of her age on Instagram would. And it just looks like they took a cruise trip together. And it's just, you know, she's got the one photo of Steven Soderbergh in the wheelchair filming contraption that he has built. And she just remarks on how he built this to just make things as efficient as possible. And her portrayal of this experience is, I went on a cruise and then it was done. I've never seen anyone make a movie like this.

But seems great. Should we do like, no, we can't do a podcast cruise ship anymore that's the other thing that's interesting about this movie is that it um and i think steven soderbergh said this in one of his interviews recently like it's a period piece now just because of the world that we live in and um the kind of impossibility of cruise ships in the near future, at least. But they make it look nice. We've heard people testify in the past about the speed and efficiency with which he works, but this one seems like a galaxy brain level

where they shot this movie for basically seven days. He would spend every night editing and then the thing was more or less done. I mean, imagine participating at that level and being Candice Bergen. You know, Candice Bergen, Diane Weiss, Meryl Streep, these are three of the most iconic actors of the 70s, 80s, 90s. I mean, these are huge figures and they just kind of seem to be having like a breezy time. There is certainly, like I said, some emotional reckoning in this story and

some heavy stuff. But I don't know. Have you ever been on a cruise before? I have. Yes. I've told you about this, right? That I had to go on a cruise ship with like an ex-boyfriend's family. Oh, yes. And basically that like I wanted to break up with him, but then they booked the trip. I hope he's not listening to this. He's actually listened to some of our podcasts and said very nice things. And I think he's happy now.

So it's fine. Your ex listens to this pod I don't know he he listens to some of the ringer podcasts and once had a very nice email so if he is in fact listening to this I think he would agree that if you know that mutually that cruise was like not the highlight of the relationship um his family is very lovely though but yeah so it's a short story I've been on a cruise ship. Should Steven Soderbergh make a movie of that that I just said? I let them all talk too. The Dobbinsing. Yeah, I love it. Let's see if we can get the Queen Mary too as soon as that thing opens back up again.

Yeah. I mean, I too have been on a cruise. I thought it captured the energy of cruise life, which is like everything is kind of static all the time. Everything is at your fingertips, but also it feels like nothing is happening. And sometimes that's wonderful when you're commuting with people you care about. And sometimes it just feels utterly deathless and airless. And that's a testament to capturing the environment

that he's in. It's also interesting for him because the cruise ship, you are definitely stuck with the people that are on the cruise ship for an extended period of time. And I would say that, you know, Soderbergh characters aren't always the most connected of individuals.

And there is like a distance. And I would like to get away from people in some of the films. I wonder what we relate to in his movies. Yeah. But, you know, I would like to get away from people in some of the films. I wonder what we relate to in his movies. Yeah, I was about to say. But, you know, the tensions in that and being stuck on a ship are definitely apparent in the characters itself. But, you know, it's interesting. Even when he is doing something that really seems like, I don't want to say a lark, though it seems like he had an idea he did it and just his off the top of his head ideas and projects are good enough to be uh like completed films on on hbo max which is amazing

i'm it's it really a testament to his skills and it but it does it does have those layers to it it does there i would recommend it i think we don't want to spoil anything else about the movie. It's not really a spoilable kind of film, but if you like Steven Soderbergh movies, I think you should definitely check it out. So what we're going to do here now, in fairly brisk fashion, is we're going to rank everything.

This is a completely absurd idea because Steven Soderbergh is perhaps the most prolific filmmaker of his era. And you and I are really passionate about his work, so much so that we have collaborated on, I believe, an Ocean's 11 Rewatchables episode, an Ocean's 12 Rewatchables episode, a Steven Soderbergh Top Fives episode, and we have also talked about his movies in many year-end episodes of this podcast. This is not new terrain for us here. However, I can't believe how many things he's made. 35 things. Relative to the other icons of this show, Sofia Coppola, Paul Thomas Anderson,

David Fincher, on and on, Quentin Tarantino, on and on down the line, most of these people have somewhere between eight and 15 projects in their whole career. Soderbergh's about the same age as most of those people, and he's's got 35 so many of these things I think most people have not seen I'm sure I'm certain they will have seen most of these things in the in the in the final tier but so what I did is I just shared with you the timeline every single thing you had done and you went to the to the to the to the task to the hard work of creating tiers and frankly I think you I think you did an amazing job with this, by the way.

Thank you so much. That's very nice. First, I had to count. And I just want to say, we've said 35 a lot. And I did count several times. But when you put Amanda in charge of math, you know, no guarantees. Okay, somewhere between 30 and 48 is what we'll say.

Just to be, just a rough estimate. I just, I wish you could have seen me alone, just kind of like hitting the cursor down every single one and then hitting it back up again. I'm sure there's a better way to do it, but I don't know how. Yes. And then I organized them into tiers and that was both really exciting and also at times emotionally difficult because I felt like my list making impulses and my wanting to be an interesting person and, quote, content creator, unquote, conflicted with just my connection to a lot of these movies and my lack of connection to a few of them.

Even the ones in tier five, which is the lowest tier, are, it's not, I wouldn't say anything's bad. Some things just kind of don't work in the way other things do. And they're interesting and they predict in a lot of ways projects to come. And it is fun because you start to see echoes of like, oh, you figured this out here and then made it work here, which he's talked about. You know, he uses all of his projects. He's like, I want to try to figure something else out. I want to do something new. And if the project can teach me something new, I'll do it. But yeah, there's just a lot. There's so much. There's so much. I think you're right that everything that he's done is instructive in some way in telling the story of his work. Let's just get to it. Do you want to read the

films that you've identified in the tier and I'll start suggesting some orders? I'm suddenly just taking like a lot of responsibility, even though you were given the opportunity to move things around. There was a pact that was made that I would put things in tiers and I was like, and then you go for it. Okay, Sean? I mean, there's a challenge here because I just honestly don't want to get too in the weeds because I could talk at length about almost every single thing that he's done. And I don't think that's really the purpose of this banal exercise.

The purpose of this is to list everything that he's done and create a kind of like a hierarchy of some kind for ourselves. But I'll tell you, you've got the good German here in tier five. I have not revisited the good German. And in fact, we talked about the good German, Steven and I, because I think it's a fascinating document because of the thing that's going on with Mank, with recreating a film from the 40s. And The Good German is arguably the worst reviews he's ever gotten in his career.

And I want to rewatch it because I want to see, was that fair? What was the reason for that? Was it similar to the reason that Mank has received some strange criticism? I don't really know. I didn't get a chance to rewatch that, but I did get a chance to rewatch a lot of other movies that are not considered icons of the Soderbergh filmography, including Full Frontal, which you also have here in tier five, which I thought was fascinating. It's really fascinating.

It makes more sense now than it did then. Yes. And that's the thing is like all of this stuff, how much of this stuff is what lives on in our memory as like is aaron brockovich an amazing movie or was it a moment in time that we loved and we were all desperate for julia roberts to have a movie and a role like that and she got it and she nailed it and he nailed it and now i like never want to re-watch aaron brockovich which is no no shots to it but i do i was desperate to re-watch full frontal and that's what looking at these things over time, I think, can compel. And that's part of why I want to be able to just name everything so people can remember that he did all of this work. Right. Well, I'm sorry to tell you that Full Frontal is in tier five and Aaron

Brockovich is in a higher tier. I know. And that's okay. You had an opportunity to make that change. You are empowered to make those choices. And like I said, I agree with almost all of them. I think for the purposes of this conversation, it was just kind of interesting to think about what you want to return to, which is not necessarily a declaration of quality. Full Frontal doesn't work as well as a movie. It's not as fun to watch. It's just got a bunch of interesting ideas in it, which is different than being a great movie. That's true. And there were also a number of movies on this list that I didn't need to revisit because I had seen them so many times.

And they aren't all necessarily at the top of the list, though a few of them are because rewatchability is part of our ringer ethos. Anyway, tier five. I will read them with the caveat that this is a basic list. We are being a little obvious, okay? That's okay. No shame.

I don't know. I just, you know,'d like to make you things interesting okay tier five kafka the underneath gray's anatomy bubble full frontal eros and the good german i think you have nailed it and part of the reason you've nailed it is because it's very difficult to see some of these movies and so for example kafka which has been out of print forever and it's just impossible to see some of these movies. And so, for example, Kafka, which has been out of print forever, and it's just impossible to find. And hopefully he'll make that movie available to people in the future. My instinct when I saw this list was to make the underneath number 35, because I think it's the clearest effort at a mainstream movie that he made

that is the least successful, even though it has some cool stuff in it. Okay. As opposed to something like Bubble or Full Frontal, which are knowingly experiments, right? Right. So I don't want to just completely degrade those. But then I do think it would be Bubble and then Eros and then Full Frontal and then The Good German.

Yeah. So I will say I didn't rewatch The Good German for this podcast, but I rewatched it a couple years ago when we also did Steven Soderbergh rankings on TheRinger.com, which you and I will now revise because we have the power and here we are. And I rewatched most of The Good German for that. It didn't work. There was something about the mismatch of not just the era, but kind of the topics and what I expect from Soderbergh's energy and playfulness. It just doesn't really... It's not my favorite Clooney-Soderbergh performance. It's just a little flat.

So you want to go 34, The Good German? We could, or I just think I would put Full Frontal above The Good German. Okay, so 34, Full Front Full Frontal above The Good German. Okay, so 34 Full Frontal, 33 The Good German. No, no, no. 34 The Good German, 33 Full Frontal. Oh, I see. Okay, I'm on board with that. I'm on board with that.

Okay. Eros is a hard-to-find anthology film that features three installments, one from Wong Kar-wai one from steven soderbergh one from michelangelo antonioni um you know i haven't seen this in a long time i seem to recall being about like a an advertising executive i think it's a period piece um it's robert downey jr which is notable um but it's pretty negligible i, in the grand scheme of things. And so we can just kind of drop that in there. Okay. I say Bubble at 31, which is not one of the experiments I love.

Yeah, I'm not. I did not revisit Bubble for this. Again, I don't really think it's particularly easy to see it, but also I didn't feel personally compelled to. I do own it on Blu-ray, like a weirdo. How many times are you going to say that on this podcast? And how many times am I going to be like, that's useless to me uh I would go number 30 Kafka I think there's a solid chance that the re-edited version of Kafka that Soderbergh is going to reissue at some point

in the next year or two we're going to look at it and be like oh actually this is a top 10 Soderbergh movie um I just don't know because I haven't seen it in like 20 years um I tried to watch a cut of it on YouTube once and the the transfer was so bad that I was like, this is not even worth it. So Kafka and then and then Grey's Anatomy, which is the Spalding Grey. I think it's the third Spalding Grey monologue movie. Nick Broomfield had made one and Jonathan Demme had also made one. And so I think there's some beautiful stuff in it.

And it's a fascinating story. If you have ever had any medical problems with your eye, don't watch this movie or maybe do because you'll relate to Spalding's. Don't. It's kind of terrorizing, but the way that he stages Grey is really cool. And obviously he had a major connection with Grey

because there's another movie featuring Grey coming later in this list. So that's a good tier five, I think. It's kind of hard to like recommend during quarantine that people who are not weirdos like me and you check out any of these movies. You know, they're not when someone like him has so many things to recommend. This is the lowest tier for a reason, right? Yeah, a lot of these are the experiments that perhaps we learned from but didn't quite hit the learning and also enjoyable, you know, balance. And those are necessary, but they're also in tier five.

Can I share one note about Full Frontal? Go for it. So there's a Harvey Weinstein stand-in in this movie played by Jeff Garlin and there's also a big-time producer character who likes to get massages in this movie who also likes to be um uh serviced by the masseuses and this is also a movie that's produced by Harvey Weinstein and I don't I'm not even making a comment about that other than just the observation of the bizarreness of seeing that play out in this very idiosyncratic and experimental and oddly made movie full of very famous people like Julia Roberts and Brad Pitt and David Fincher have a very famous cameo in this movie. But again, I don't know if it's Soderbergh seeing the future or telling the truth without telling the truth, or I don't know what it is. But I was so struck by a couple of the choices of exposing the underbelly of Hollywood, which

is kind of the purpose of that movie to some extent, and the artifice of everything, that it really jumped out to me. Now, Full Frontal is a hard movie to see, and maybe there are reasons for that. But anyway, just thought i should note that it's fascinating it is also it is a hard movie to see but also weirdly the the aforementioned masseuse massage scene is just like available on youtube out of context which is also very strange is it yes okay well anyway full frontal is not maybe not worth recommending per se, but it's a fascinating time capsule. Tier four.

What do we got? Okay. The contenders are Schizopolis, Traffic, K Street, which is a TV show, Unsane, Mosaic, also a TV show, High Flying Bird, which I noted in the comments I feel bad about, and Let Them All Talk. Why do you feel bad about High Flying Bird being in tier four? Well, I just want it to be high tier four you know i think that that's all i think that it is obviously so important to the ringer because of you know the basketballness of it all and it does kind of initiate

the new streaming phase of soderbergh just trying stuff and us being like, wow, that's cool. Wow. Another new Steven Soderbergh movie, like six months after the last one. Great. So I have real affection for it. Even if I think it just is, you know,

it's like, let them all talk where it's kind of like a minor work, which I don't mean to sound dismissive. It's like, sometimes he's making a big budget movie and sometimes he's doing an experiment. And I value them both. I think in the increasing player empowerment era

of the National Basketball Association, again, this is another movie that just sees the future and reflects the times. I think if you just insert James Harden as the leading figure of High Flying Bird, it'd be a fascinating way to see that movie through a new prism. But I agree with you.

I mean, I think it's like not one of the 10 most important movies he's made, but it's a really good movie. So why don't we just make it 22? So it'll be the number one movie in tier four. I would probably argue to make let them all talk number 23 or 24 i would as well another thing here is that i was really trying to break up the various schools right because that's another cool thing about his career he really does go in phases

then the early 90s until out of sight are the i I need to figure out what I'm going to be type of filmmaker. And, you know, maybe you don't feel that much of a connection to those or I don't anyway. And then there's like the, the pure Hollywood phase. And then there is the, now I have to figure out what I'm going to be now that I've done the pure Hollywood phase. And then there's the, the, I've got some ideas and Hollywood's changing phase and now, and then there's the the I've got some ideas and Hollywood's changing phase and now and then there's the streaming phase so it's and you didn't want

to clump all of them together but they are similar sometimes so having let them all talk and high-flying word right next to each other makes sense to me with that in mind why don't we make

traffic 24 which is a movie that we actually thought Stephen and I talked about a little bit which i think is a very interesting movie but feels almost like po-faced and melodramatic in its execution in a way that almost no other steven soderbergh movie does and so it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb there are things about it that are amazing benicio del toro in particular is amazing in that movie um as is uh what's what's your man from that 70s show toffer grace

hilarious performance from toffer grace um but but it's it's not one i return to um no it's i mean it is one where it's kind of outdated if full frontal and high flying bird become more relevant with time and many of his movies do we're going to talk about one that really becomes relevant i bet you can guess what it is uh but that's just been out been outpaced by like the world and also by stories about um the drug trade okay i would say schizopolis at 25 just because of what it meant for his career which is a you know this very strange um experimental movie that he made as he was kind of going through like a break, like a reevaluation

of what his career and work should be about. And he stars in this movie. And I rewatched this this week too. And I was like, you know, I don't know if this is like a fun rewatch per se, but it's- I also watched it this week. And with all the affection in my heart, it is not a fun rewatch.

It's a very peculiar movie. But you can see sometimes you have to do something convulsive. And that's what this is, right? This was him just kind of like spewing something out, getting a sense of how to make things in a more lean fashion, which clearly helped him go to one of those next phases of his career. I see K Street and Mosaic as like pinned together in a lot of ways um can we just talk about k street for a second i promise i won't derail this of course um i but

i had not seen k street when it was out so i have caught bits but the first episode featuring howard dean is available on youtube in full and we watched it and that was just an absolutely mind-bending experience especially like not being in the moment and trying because he's playing available on YouTube in full and we watched it. And that was just an absolutely mind bending experience, especially like not being in the moment and trying to, cause he's playing with fact and fiction and the Hollywoodization of politics and celebrity. And there's like a lot going on and it's meta in a lot of ways that like is recognizable as comedy and 2020 again, sort of prescient, but me just trying to understand what's going on with Howard Dean and Rick Santorum, like being in this, but not being in this was, I still don't

understand. I'm pretty stressed out about it. I remember it being a bit of an opaque series in general. I mean, for those of you who are not familiar with K Street, another thing that Steven Soderbergh was ahead of the curve on was prestige television. He produced and directed every episode of this show, which starred folks like John Slattery and Mary McCormick, but also people like James Carville and Mary Madeline. And it was this depiction of the relationship between lobbyists and politicians and the way that backroom dealing was happening in Washington, DC. Fascinating experiment. It was not my favorite show, even though it seems like a show that was kind of made for me, but like, this is a good 10 years before house of cards was a TV show. Steven Soderbergh was doing this, you know, like he is so ahead of the curve on everything. It's

kind of staggering. And sometimes so ahead of the curve that it like makes absolutely no sense. And even now I was just kind of like, could someone please explain to me what's happening? Yeah. Uh, but, but it was But it was still compelling, even though poor John Slattery just has to sit there while James Carville just does his James Carville thing that is supposed to be fictional, but it's definitely not. Anyway. All life is a performance, as James Carville has taught us. I think Mosaic, we might be having this conversation about Mosaic in 10 years. Wow. How ahead of the curve was Steven Soderbergh in terms of the kind of choose your own adventure style storytelling that was happening in this show that was also essentially like a role playing game.

And you could, you know, you could play out on your computer before you ended up playing it out on your HBO television screen. I thought not always a successful experiment, but a fascinating experiment with a really good Sharon Stone performance. One of the few great Sharon Stone performances in the last five years. I think he's also responsible for the other one, which is a really funny cameo in The Laundromat. Remember that? When in The Laundromat? Isn't she like a real estate agent in The Laundromat? Yes. Oh, in the Vegas. Right. Oh, yeah. That's great. Yeah. So again, that's the other thing. He has the best eye for talent.

And then Unsane, I think, is actually one of his most unsuccessful movies of the 21st century. I think it has some style. And he shot it on an iPhone, much like he shot High Flying Bird. And it features your girl, Claire Foy. Respect to Claire Foy. It's just a harrowing and tough to watch movie. It's not how I want to watch Claire Foy. It's just not my preferred method. but that's, that's okay. You got to try things.

All right. So you want to do unsane at 28 mosaic at 27 and K street at 25. Yeah. I mean, at 26, I'm good with that. Okay. Yeah. All right. This has been peaceful and democratic thus far.

It's going to get a little harder as we get further along. I guess so. Tier three. What do we got? King of the hill. I guess so. Tier three. What do we got? King of the Hill, Ocean's 13, Che, and Everything is Going Fine, Side Effects, Behind the Candelabra, and The Laundromat. Okay. The one question I failed to ask Stephen is why didn't more people like The Laundromat? I really wanted to know why he thought that that movie did not get as strong a reception as you and I thought it deserved. I didn't ask him.

Well, okay. So we'll continue to wonder. I think it's a really good, enjoyable film and also kind of the most fully realized of the streaming because he does basically three or four streaming movies in one streaming movie and they are all immediately immersive and successful and you know where you are. I don't get it. I enjoyed that film. Yeah. That being said, should it be 21? Is that too low for the laundromat? all immediately immersive and successful and you know where you are um uh i i don't get it i enjoyed that film yeah that being said should it be 21 is that too low for the laundromat it's fine except then when you go back you have let them all talk high flying bird and the laundromat right in a row which is what i was talking about and and i think they kind of recency bias yeah but it's like the laundromat is superior to those though i agree with you so it does it

does stand alone in a separate tier okay i could put side effects here rewatch side effects last night had a great time i have such a vivid memory of seeing side effects on opening weekend i lived in new york and there was a blizzard and we went went to the Quartz Street Theater to see side effects. And as a thriller, as a what's going to happen, tremendously engaging. As a commentary on the psychiatric and drug industry, I would like to have a conversation with him about it. Raise us some interesting questions.

I don't know whether it sticks in the same way. Also, this movie stars Rooney Mara, Jude Law, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and for about 10 minutes, Channing Tatum. I had just forgotten how little Channing Tatum is in this movie, but that's okay. It's I, again, I started it last night being like, I've seen this. I don't need to finish it to the end. I just want to get a refresher. And then I watched to the end, which means that it is an engaging film. But, you know, it's kind of a one and done.

So it's notable for one very specific reason to me, which is that this is clearly the movie and the experience that inspired the speech that he gave at the San Francisco Film Festival in 2013. Because this movie stars

Jude Law, Rooney Mara, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Channing Tatum. Big movie stars, big classical, middle, like mid-tier erotic thriller style structure that had been successful for many years. And the movie made about $60 million and it was hard to sell overseas. And I think that in many ways,

it represents what we talk about on this show all the time. And what is one of the reasons why we dig Soderbergh, which is like these middle tier movies are increasingly gone. And that's a bummer. And it's not okay to just say this was a pretty cool, entertaining, like who done it or how did it happen? As opposed to it being like this meaningful blockbuster of some kind. So it has an important place in the lineup. But I agree as a movie, it's nearer to the bottom.

So 21 side effects, 20 the laundromat. I would say, and everything is going fine, maybe at 19. Okay. That is his documentary homage to Spalding Gray,

the great monologuist and thinker and writer, which is a good movie and feels like it's coming from a very personal place and has some fascinating editing style but is like kind of conventional as soda work projects go um you re-watched king of the hill lately i did i re-watched it this week what do you think it was better than i remembered i was more engaged with it. I mean, it feels not very Soderberghian. It feels like a well done story about growing up in the depression. And it has, you know, it has sharp

edges and there are moments of observation and you kind of see the style coalescing. But it's so early that I was just like, oh, so Steven Soderbergh decided to make a good like old timey history movie. And he does that, right? Steven Soderbergh makes a crime thriller so Steven Soderbergh decided to make a good old-timey history movie. And he does that, right? Steven Soderbergh makes a crime thriller. Steven Soderbergh makes a movie about old ladies on a cruise ship. But I thought it was very good and just didn't really have his thumbprint as much. I think that makes sense.

I thought about it a lot this year because A.E. Hotchner, whose memoir the movie is based on, who is also the man who co-founded Newman's Own. We've been talking about Paul Newman lately, but he was a close friend of Paul Newman's. A.E. Hotchner died this year in February. He was 102 years old. And part of this movie is about his reflections about depression era missouri which is just extraordinary um but you're right it does feel kind of like classical and a little bit removed and like missing some of the soderbergh style but it is classically well made really good performances looks beautiful i was surprised when criterion collection issued a version of this because i thought it didn't have a strong reputation but i completely agree with you i think it's pretty good so i would put it at 18 okay so we have oceans 13 che and behind the candelabra left i'm gonna make a confession did not re-watch che i did i did re-watch che okay you want to speak on it uh it was interesting the way that steven talked about it because he talked about it almost like in a like a something he had to finish. Something like

a project that had a difficulty and an intensity to it. Maybe not difficulty, but an intensity to it. But he didn't speak lovingly about it and I think that's the relationship that most people I know have to it. Chris Ryan is a huge fan and a big defender of that

three and a half hour, four hour behemoth of a movie. I think it's obviously really well made and the intentions are pure and there are some great performances in it um but it's just i it's not i and i love an epic i love an epic tale of a rebel leader but um it's not my favorite of his i think it's more something to be in awe of than to love to revisit um so i would say 17 for Che. Yes, that's why I brought it up, because I feel similarly.

I also just, I love an epic, and this just doesn't feel like a Soderbergh epic. One of the things I like about him is the economy and the choice, and this feels like it got a little bit away from that. And again, everybody should get to try everything once, but I didn't rewatch it. Sad. Um,

okay. Honest. Well, I like the idea of behind the candelabra and oceans 13 being paired together. Cause they feel like a pair of larks that just, I still love and I still want to watch over and over again. Um,

and, and behind the candelabra in a way is seems like an entree into his ongoing relationship with HBObo you know he made this movie because he couldn't get it into movie theaters because it cost too much money and people didn't want to pay for it so tv made the most sense and uh it's delightful and also here we are in 2020 with that happening every day exactly again ahead of the curve. So maybe behind the candelabras 16, oceans 13, 15? That's great with me. Okay.

That leaves us with two tiers. It does. So many good movies and TV shows in these two tiers. Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's really nuts.

Okay. This is where it might get ugly. Okay. Tier two. Erin Brockovich, Solaris, The Informant, The Girlfriend Experience,

Contagion, The Nick, which is a TV show, and Logan Lucky. I'm higher on Logan Lucky than you are. Mm-hmm. I would say The Girlfriend Experience is the clear 14. Okay. And then after that, I kind of don't know what to I'll do Logan Lucky at 13, which is a movie that I enjoyed, but feels just like lesser oceans, lesser. And I love all these movie stars. This is so rude to say about Adam Driver and Daniel Craig, my beloved Daniel Craig, but also just Daniel Craig was not telling that accent. I'm sorry. Like I know the people of that part of the world and it's just that's not really how it's going even though he does it

again in Knives Out. In the light of day again ahead of the curve casting Daniel Craig as a Southerner with a bad accent. I mean, come on. Soderbergh did it.

Joe Bang. What a great character. Yeah. No, it's true. I like this movie. I just it felt like an echo a little.

I get you. I have I have often thought that maybe not often I don't even know what the hell that means but I have thought in the past that if they just called this movie the hillbilly heist it would have been a big hit and it being called Logan Lucky was kind of confusing yeah nevertheless or

Ocean 7-Eleven as it is called in the movie okay so logan lucky 13 i would push for brockovich at 12 but i didn't revisit it you're gonna fight me here a little bit i just think that this is underrated i one thing that steven soderbergh is so good at as movie stars he's he understands movie stars he as movie stars, he's, he understands movie stars. He lets movie stars cook. That's both like a major part of his appeal. And also part of the reason that we still have movie stars in this day and age. Thank you, Steven Soderbergh. It's really important to me. And this is a quote, traditional structured film. It's like a, you know, the

local woman does good, but, and local woman like corrects wrong, but what he lets Julia Roberts do in it is very notable in terms of that, just letting people shine and understanding the value in that. And she is delightful in this and she does win an Oscar in it for it. And that's also important. Okay. How about Solaris at 12 and Aaron Brockovich at 11? Can we make that deal? Oh,

I forgot how much you like The Informant. Yeah. You're gonna have to fight against that. I know. I rewatched Solaris and I thought it was terrific.

Me too! Love Solaris! I thought it was really terrific. That's why I'm kind of like we're already only putting this at 12. Yeah, delightful. Sci-fi without all of the action.

That's right. I love it. Yeah, the same week I watched George Clooney in The Midnight Sky. Solaris? Better movie. Okay, can you handle Brockovich at 11? I guess so.

10? What do you want to trade? We've got in this grouping now left over, we've got the informant, the Nick, and Contagion. Contagion obviously has taken on this massive reputation in the last nine months for good reason. Yeah. The informant is a personal favorite. I'll cop to that.

Right. And the Nick is undeniably excellent. Yes. And also, the era when Steven Soderbergh was blogging and sharing all of the notes that he was getting on the Nick and then pushing back on them is just... That's the best that blogging's ever been. We don't have to do it anymore. That's really the problem with focusing too much time on Steven Soderbergh is he'll make

you feel bad, not just about what he does so well, but about what you do so well that he does better. He's a better list maker than I am. He's a better culture diarist than I am. He's a better blogger than I am. And he's certainly a better filmmaker. It's tough. It's not what you want.

It's good to have people to look up to. Okay, so Contagion, the Nick, the Informant. Do we go the Informant at 10? Yes. Contagion at nine, the Nick at eight. What do you think of that? I can just hear Juliette Lipman yelling at me for not respecting the Nick appropriately.

So that's fine. We can put it at number eight. Even though I personally think that Contagion is... Listen, predicting the future is not easy. And I think we do have to give him credit both for this being really well-made and also becoming basically a handbook for all of us to understand this nightmare year. It's not just that though. And I mean, I've already talked about it this year on the rewatchables, but it's,

it's a great movie. It's really, it's, it's a riveting film. It's not just that it's predictive. It's not just that it is impressive what they were able to see. And it's not just Steven Soderbergh's like craft and the performances. It's like,

even though it's terrifying, it's a great movie to watch and that's the thing that's that's not always true of all these movies we've been talking through right like some of them are kind of tough to revisit or you can kind of see the experimentation happening contagion i think it works in the same way that aaron brockovich works where it's just like put these very um charismatic people on screen raise the stakes as high as you can and let them cook um he's great at that yeah also secretly one of his most emotional movies like the scene the the scenes with damon and both the

the quiet scene of him crying and then the scene with the daughter in the prom it's like as sentimental as sodeberg really gets it's true it's true i'm open to okay fine at number nine and then you can talk about the neck i don't i don't have too much to add other than it's true it's true i'm open to okay fine at number nine and then you can talk about the neck i don't i don't have too much to add other than it's just an extraordinary achievement and like that efficiency that i was talking about he did something quickly and with new style and intensity and personality that um you know we hear people drone on about about tv shows like all the time like i'm so you and i are both i think so sick of so much of the prestige TV bullshit. But he just did such a no-frills, bracing, beautiful, stripped-down version of that.

And did it quickly. Got us two seasons. And then got out. And went back to movies. And it's a major achievement. I know a lot of people who think it's the best TV show of the 2010s. So, you know, the Nick is great. Tier one is bonkers. Yeah, here we go. So it's Sex, Lies, and Videotape, Out of Sight, The Limey, Ocean's Eleven, Ocean's Twelve, Haywire, and Magic Mike. I would say Haywire is the least of these seven. I was also going to suggest Haywire and Magic Mike. I would say Haywire is the least of these seven.

I was also going to suggest Haywire at seven. For me personally, I think the Informant and Contagion are superior to Haywire. But I know there's a bit, I know Chris loves Haywire. I know you like it too. That's the one that I, if I were going to be moving stuff out of tiers, that's probably what I would move out. Do you want to? I mean, it's our podcast.

It is. You want to swap mean it's our podcast it is you want to swap haywire and contagion yeah and so now you're putting contagion above the nick i was also going to give you like you can put haywire up and then slide everything down one if you would like to no let's flip-flop them because i like the nick as a tv show standing aside from the seven great films okay this is great with me because i think contagion is excellent um but haywire it's great this is what's his like very brief let's talk let's let me explore body's face and i just am really interested in like how the human body works and it like it moving it's like basically his his like steven soderbergh goes to dance school uh and it was cool i was into it i i

think that there's something authentically erotic about Gina Carano beating the absolute shit out of Michael Fassbender in a hotel room. Yeah. It's like a sex scene,

but just with punching. It's great stuff. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I don't really know what to do here. Maybe Ocean's 12 at 6?

No. Okay. What do you want at 6? Let's see. I guess people will be mad at me, but I would put... Well, you know, let's talk about Sex, Lies, and Videotape

versus Magic and Magic Mike. Where are you going to put those? Because I was concerned about putting Haywire and Magic Mike right next to each other because, once again, bodies. And I still think that Magic Mike is one of the best films of the last decade so i'll tell you what i would do with what's left and you can tell me

what you disagree with okay okay i would do oceans 12 at 6 i would do magic mike at 5 i would do sex laws and videotape at 4 i would do the limey at 3 oceans 11 at two and out of sight at one. That would be my list. Hmm. I'm not going to argue with your top two. Okay. Which is kind of anticlimactic, but did anyone who's listening this far in this podcast think we were going to

do anything other than out of sight at one and oceans 11 at two? I just, we are who we are. And also the work speaks for itself two bangers just two absolute heroic performances by steven soderbergh there okay so let's slot those two in okay great um i'm sorry i can't write and podcast at the same time also you have like the you have the google doc is doing the auto thing with the list now. So, okay, whatever. You'll remember it. I'll remember it. Out of sight at one, Ocean's 11 at two.

So we have the Limey, Magic Mike, Ocean's 12, and Sex, Lies, and Videotape left. I watched all of these recently. Here's the thing. I think Ocean's 12 is a masterpiece. And it's like- I know. We know. We know, Amanda.

And, well, oh, I'm sorry that I can't talk about my favorite things on a podcast and i think it just encapsulates so much of what is both good and accomplished about soda berg and also what is fun there is equal parts of its craftsmanship and like pleasure principle and i think kind of the enjoyment factor in soda berg movies it's not that it gets overlooked i mean we put out of sight in Ocean's 11 at one or two, but if we're following that doctrine, then Ocean's 12 should be higher. And it's not number three.

There's no case for it. I'm not trying to put above the limey. Rewatch the limey yesterday. Guess what? The limey rules. Great, great. And it's, and that's someone who hates violence. And I just was having the time of my life.

Just great. So I'm okay hates violence. And I just was having the time of my life. Just great. So I'm OK with that. And number three. I love Magic Mike. So I do feel that it needs to be in the top five. I'm good with that. Let's talk. Let's talk about sex lives and videotape for a second.

OK, I didn't. Obviously, I did. Amanda Dobbins does her homework obviously hugely important in the history of of cinema and steven soderbergh and a great film and a film that sets the emotional template for a lot of his work to come and i just really really Oceans 12 a lot. So I don't know what to tell you. I don't want to get yelled at, but ugh. I don't know how you... It's Magic Mike or Oceans 12.

You got to pick. I don't see how you can put both of them above Sex, Lies, and Videotape. That's actually illogical to me. I know it's irresponsible. I know that that's irresponsible. All right right i guess i've filibustered enough and i can't believe i'm caving i'm leaving this podcast with a sense of defeat all right you have oceans 12 and everything it should be in the top five i didn't advocate for myself enough i'm failing myself here i just this is what happens with someone

abandoning their principles in real time in public i apologize to myself you're like daniel plainview in the church i've abandoned my child ocean's 12 rules okay i'll put it at number six there you go all right you want you want sex lies at five yeah yeah magic might get four okay and then liming at three oceans 11 at two and out of sight at one i think that's great that's probably pretty similar to our original list a couple years ago but it is what it is this is a this is a living document it's ever evolving okay I hope it can evolve to Oceans 12 being higher in the future, but whatever. Might be a good solo pod for you, you know? See if we'll publish that here at The Ringer.

Any other, you know, outgoing Steven Soderbergh statements before we get to my conversation with him? Very grateful for his work and his artistry. I am as well. He's the man. Let's go to that conversation right now. Thank you, Amanda. Truly an honor to be joined by Steven Soderbergh.

Steven, thanks for doing the show. Oh, my pleasure. So, Steven, I wanted to start by asking you a little bit about Let Them All Talk, and specifically when you decide to make a movie. Are you looking at this point, having made 30-plus film and TV projects, for a discrete challenge in every new thing that you do? Yeah, ideally. At least one, you know, hopefully. In this case, it was whether we could,

within the timeframe of an actual crossing from Red Hook to Southampton in the UK, you know, could we make the bulk of this film while we were on the ship? And that was an open question that we tried to answer as best we could through planning. Once we had the basic idea and started building the script out, we went to Cunard, who owns the Queen Mary II, pitched them this idea. And they were interested enough to pursue it. And we started to board the ship in Brooklyn every time it would come back. So it's sort of a little more than a two-week cycle. All it does during this season, which is, I think, from March or April through end of October, it just goes back and forth from the UK to the US over and over again. So whenever they would come back and dock for a day, we would go on board the

ship, look at it, and break out for them. Here's where we would like to shoot. On this day, we will be in this section for an hour and a half. We really tried to be granular about where we were going to be because it was a live crossing and they would have to essentially clear out for us these sections of passengers, although we offered the passengers the opportunity to be in the film. So it was a logistical challenge. And of course, if you run out of time, you're out of time. They're going to kick us off the ship once we hit the UK. So that was a new one for me. Are you creatively energized by a logistical challenge? That seems like kind of a nightmare to me. Yeah, because it forces you to stop thinking vertically all the time and fall into that

trap of, oh, well, anything can be solved by just having more money. And this was literally, if you'd given us twice as much money to make this movie, it honestly wouldn't be any different. We had everything we needed to do this. But having said that, it was a very, very stripped down crew. And, you know, we tried to have as light a footprint as possible on the ship. We didn't have lights. You know, we had three full-blown camera units, but we still, we traveled pretty light. And there were people that we found out later on the ship that didn't even know that we were shooting on the ship how many people did you have in the crew all told i'd say it was about 30 all total all in wardrobe makeup everybody it was about 30 that's pretty small for a meryl street movie well yeah she loved it um have you ever been halfway through one of these

challenge experiments and thought to yourself, this was a mistake, this is not going to work? Well, I think you feel that way often. I've only had a couple of times of having the floor open up underneath me, you know, and to reveal a black abyss. That's pretty rare. And it usually has to do with bumping up against my own creative abilities that we're setting up a sequence that I'm not really clear on how it should be executed, how it should be staged and shot. And on the occasions that that happens, I just slow everything down and usually send everybody away so that I can consider the situation in a sort of pure creative space where there's no clock

and there's nobody waiting. I can just think about it with the illusion that I have all the time in the world. If I'm able to do that, I usually confine the backdoor into the solve. I refuse to shoot something that I don't believe. If I'm just not feeling it, then I'll just stop. It seems like you shot this movie very quickly, and it's been reported in the past, and I don't know if you did it here, but that you shoot and that you edit at night,

so that the production time and the post-production time, in some respects, is really short relative to how many other movies are made. Why is that efficiency important to you? Why are you doing things that way at this point? Well, it's just taking advantage of the technology to be able to see what you've done as quickly as possible. So there were multiple times on Let Them All Talk where I would cut together that day's material, and I would email Deborah Eisenberg and say, either I think, yes, I think we should either redo this, or now that I've seen

that sequence put together, I think we need to add another reference to X narrative thread that will show up in the scene that we're going to do two days from now. So it really enhances your ability to recalibrate in real time, essentially, and make it better. You know, that's when I think back on the fact that on the first three films that I directed, I didn't even start editing until we were finished shooting. I'm aghast that that was how I was working and that I was okay with that. That's terrifying to think of now. Would you have done things much differently on those films if you had this technology? Yeah, they'd be better. It feels like you're in some sort of project to constantly reevaluate your work and the work of other filmmakers, re-editing and rethinking. What is it about that? Why do you want to return to the

things that you've done to try to improve them or reimagine them? It's probably driven by my love for editing just as a as as a thing that can be done i'm just endlessly fascinated by editing uh the power of it um it's never it's just never not exciting to me and so some of these projects are kind of experiments in the power of editing and how easily through restructuring, juxtaposition, and conflation, you can alter the core meaning of a piece. I just find that absolutely fascinating. So when there's an occasion that I can go back and improve something, usually by making it shorter, I always try to take advantage of that. But the morality of playing around with other people's work is questionable. Although I would argue in my defense, if somebody were to do that with something that I did, as long as they're not charging people to see it, I don't really care. It doesn't change the pixels of the thing that I made. So I'm a sort of, you know, tag artist in that regard. And I feel like that's, it's kind of an open forum for people to be creative.

Is there a Steven Soderbergh film that you think is ripe for re-edit elsewhere? Well, I guess that's a question for everyone in the world. An open challenge. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of films that I'm going back to work on a little bit as part of this archiving project. But yeah, if somebody wants to mash up a couple of different things uh have at it i i'll say from as a for me personally to go back and look at something i've written or even to hear my own voice on a podcast is very painful um and i feel like embarrassment and frustration at my inability

to do the thing the way i wanted to do it is it difficult for you to go back and look at previous versions of your creative self and see them? Or do you like getting back inside of those things? It's interesting in the sense because it's kind of like time travel. You're immediately... Not that I go back and look at these things for pleasure, but I'm often asked to go back and look at them because we're remastering them or they're going to be edited for television or something. I have to go back and look at them. It really does immerse you in the time and the place where the project was made and who you were at that point. You can sort of reverse engineer who you were and who you were at that point.

You can, you can sort of reverse engineer who you were and what you were thinking by watching the choices that were made on set and in post-production. And that, that can be interesting. I mean, sometimes I'll look, I'll look at something and, and think, wow, I wonder, I wonder why I made those choices or what I was thinking there. And then sometimes you look back and you're startled because how tricky the work can be, you're just happy that you got through it. Finishing something is a big deal, as you know. There are lots of people that start things.

But I look back, for instance, at something like Che, and I'm just happy we got it finished. As far as Let Them All Talk goes, who are you now? What is the reason that you wanted to make a film about some 70-year-old women who are sort of reuniting? Why this story at this phase of your career? Well, there were kind of two parallel ideas that Deborah and I were trying to chase. One was just having these generations interact with each other in a way that wasn't set up for people to be the butt of jokes, whether they were the young people or the older people. We wanted a sincere attempt at communication between these two generations because I just felt like I would be enhanced somehow by watching that take place. And then the second thing we were chasing was just this idea of how important stories are to all of us. And in this context, you know, the stories that we tell

ourselves about ourselves that enable us to get up in the morning and think that we should keep going. And those stories are very subjective, more often than not. And this movie was about the tension that occurs when the internal story that somebody's telling themselves begins to bump up against the external reality that they're confronting by talking to their friends. And so this kind of idea of destructive delusions that we have about ourselves versus constructive illusions that we have about ourselves to keep going, like I'm talented or my kids love me, things like that, that keep you going. What happens when those kind of bump up against something that's kind of empirically in opposition to that? So we were kind of working on these two things and trying to create a narrative in which that idea was continually sort of being pushed forward until it reaches a climax of sorts,

and there's a real confrontation. Why did you want there to be an aspect of improvisation in the film? Well, because in a story in which there's this much verbal communication. I feel like the ideal world is that you've designed the plot and the scenes well enough and in enough detail that you're then allowing the actors a little bit of space to speak as those characters. So in this case, we were telling them what to say. What we weren't telling them was how they should say it. And that allows for a kind of spontaneity and especially a quality of the listening on the part of the actors in the scene, because they're not sure what the other actor's going to say. So their antenna have to be very, very highly tuned. And that results, I think, in a very interesting performance mode. And as you will have seen in the film, I spent a lot of time sitting on the people who were listening to the other

people talking because I'm fascinated at watching them try to navigate what's coming at them. So if you can do that, you can kind of get the best of both, something that feels very alive. But I absolutely wanted the movie to feel, for the the audience very tightly scripted. I sort of thought of it in league with Curb Your Enthusiasm. It felt a little bit like a slightly tonally, but not that tonally different episode of Curb that veered off to join three women. Well, that makes sense because my understanding of how they work is very similar. I mean, as you can see from watching those shows, they're very, very well plotted. They have multiple sort of ideas that

are playing and bumping off each other. And the people in the scene clearly know what the intention and the purpose of the scene is, which is why their improvisations are so good. And that's really what you've got to set up. They really need to know what the goal is and the purpose of the scene or else you're just, you're kind of winging it. And that I think becomes very frustrating for a viewer. When the viewer doesn't feel purpose, I think they get annoyed. This film is going to appear on HBO Max. And you have a growing reputation as an oracular voice of reason, I think, in the world of movies. Well, one, how do you feel about that? You've even shaken your head at me.

Well, I'm not good at predicting anything. I just try to pay attention to the reality around us and what I think it portends. But when you're dealing with a business that does involve stories like this and has a huge variable in how stories land at a certain point in time are incredibly dependent on timing, just what's happening in the zeitgeist. And so I think part of the difficulty for the studios right now with COVID and the theaters operating at such low capacity is they have these giant films that you just can't sit on for two years. They have a cultural shelf life. They're in a very weird position in that they've got these assets that they spend a lot of money on. They're facing a situation in which, if they put it on the platform, they might get out financially. They might not. Chances are that they're probably going to lose

a little bit of money. On the other hand, you're going to lose a shit ton of money. Those are the two options by trying to shove this out into a system that's not anywhere near full capacity. So they're in a very, very difficult spot. These are not fun conversations internally, I'm sure. I'm curious from your perspective, since you signed a deal with HBO Max to make projects like Let Them All Talk, which is certainly smaller in scale relative to a Wonder Woman movie.

Is there any part of you that is kind of frustrated by the idea that now even the tentpole films are kind of invading this space that you had potentially carved out where you could get a more mid-tier or lower budget film, a genre movie with movie stars, as you've talked about? Do you see that there being an incursion on those kinds of movies in the streaming space too? I don't know. I do know that the situation we're in right now is not permanent and that theater going, movie going will absolutely come back. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, when we're on the other side of the pandemic, that it comes back in a very big way, because people will be so happy to have that experience again. That's a possibility.

But I think we're in a really unusual and unique situation for the next 10 to 12 months. And so I'm hesitant to say, oh, this is going to become the new norm now that these tentpole franchise movies are going to start dominating the streaming platforms because, as I said the other day, nobody is interested in giving up on the theatrical distribution business. There is way too much money on the table. It is still, there is no bonanza like it in any other context when you have a movie that does a billion dollars or more. That's not going anywhere. There's no studio plan that involves removing theater going from their scenario. That's just not going to happen. We're just in a kind of weird limbo for a little while. But the reason that I'm a good fit at HBO Max right now is the kind of movies that I tend to make lately are movies for grownups in this sort of mid-range

in terms of budget. And that's just not a kind of movie that's performing well in broad terms, theatrical like that, that audience, that audience isn't there in as many numbers as it was 15 years ago. I'm very interested in what you've learned over the last, you know,

three or four years since you came back to filmmaking kind of full time, I guess, you know, Logan film like Logan, lucky, which I think is great, like authentically great, maybe didn't perform as well as some people would have wanted it to. But at least we have the box office receipts to see that, for better and for worse.

But for these films that you've made recently, two for Netflix, now one for HBO Max, what's your understanding of how people are receiving the movie of what the audience is? Are you getting data that tells you people respond to this? Oh yeah. Yeah. They,

you have a call, you have a series of calls and, and they give you the, you know, their proprietary information about how many people watched it. So there's no question in the case of High Flying Bird and The Laundromat, the number of people that watched those movies on Netflix far outstrips what they would have done theatrically by a factor of at least

five, maybe even eight or nine. A lot of people saw them. I'm considering what those movies are. I was very happy with that result. From what they tell me, they were very happy with those results. So again, High Flying Bird, especially, that's a very niche movie in terms of its content and its target audience. And so there was no universe when I heard the numbers after it had been on the platform for a year in which we would have gotten that many people to show up in a movie theater to see that movie no matter how you sold it. I think people have big emotional relationships to some of the movies that you've made. The Ocean series, obviously, Sex, Lies, and Videotape. There's a number of movies

that you've made over the years that people return to all the time that they think about. There's anniversary pieces looking back at what you accomplished. Do you think that people return to all the time that they think about there's anniversary pieces looking back at what you accomplished do you think that people will or can have those kinds of relationships to movies that appear on these streaming services yeah i do um i guess we'll know in 10 years but um yeah i do i mean look at what's happening to my friend Scott Frank's show, The Queen's Gambit. I mean, this thing is a phenomenon. I'm sure 10 years from now, there'll be some articles going, hey, it was 10 years ago, The Queen's Gambit dropped. So I think so.

Look, it's not going to happen as often as it used to just because of the sheer volume of content that's out there. It's harder for something to become a cultural phenomenon the way they used to just because there's so much stuff. of makes it all the more exciting when something like Scott's show bursts through like that and in a kind of surprising, unexpected way. That's great. I mean, what a great result for Scott that the real world effect of that show is that a lot of young women want to learn how to play chess. What a great result. It's a great show too. Speaking of the passage of time, I was thinking about this. It's almost 20 years.

It's 20 years and a few months since you won Best Director at the Oscars. And I feel like you... It felt like you made some very specific choices after that. It seemed like you were unburdened somehow and started making different kinds of movies, different kinds of creative choices. Did you feel that at the time? Am I onto something by saying that? It wasn't conscious on my part. I was certainly aware that having a lot of wind at your back allows you to get some things made that might be difficult to make if you had the wind in your face. But that's just me trying to take advantage of whatever situation I'm in to push myself. But that just happened to, again, it's all timing and just weird luck.

The year of Traffic and Aaron. Aaron was a project that I turned down while we were making Out of Sight. It was the same set of producers. And I remember being on the set of out of sight and then pitching the idea for Aaron Brockovich. And I said, that's the worst idea for a movie I've ever heard. And then when I was editing the Limey and having a real problem, they came back to me and suddenly it seemed like the best idea in the world, a movie that moves in one direction. So, and then Traffic, we didn't really have the money in the bank to shoot that movie until three weeks before principal photography,

every studio in town turned it down and, and it took, you know, Graham King stepping in and committing at the last minute to get that movie made. Everybody said there's never been a movie about drugs that's been a commercial success. And they weren't wrong. We just felt in the year 2000, in an election year, that this subject was there it was people were waiting to see something about this because it had become such a huge conversation in the larger culture so that was again that's just timing and luck and then on top of it you know you've got to execute you know it's it's it's hilarious to me when people talk about these algorithms that can predict whether a movie is going to be a hit.

You plug in the script and the cast and it'll tell you. I'm like, dude, somebody has to go out and shoot it. That is just a fool's errand thinking that you can AI your way to a result here. Real human beings have to go out and make it. What if you get one of them on their bad day? What if you hire the wrong composer? This is a very fluid human sort of business that we're in. And in my experience, it really resists any attempts to break it down into some formula that can be conjured that will. I just, that's not what it feels like to me.

You know, you recently said something that I was noting earlier, which is that you want to make genre movies with movie stars right now. Now, I'll tell you candidly that those are my favorite movies. Why is that important to you at this point in your life? Well, it's just that genre is such an efficient delivery system for any idea that you can think of. And everybody wins. The audience is happily, hopefully, watching a thriller or a comedy or a musical or something. It's kind of playing on that level and everybody's having a good time. Then underneath it, you get to put in all this other stuff that you're interested in. it doesn't overwhelm the main story, but it also keeps it from being disposable.

So I feel like it's, you know, I've come to this realization very, very late, probably post Che, but although there are a lot of genre films in my, you know, resume before that, but I was thinking about it more consciously when I got out the other end of Che that I really wanted to focus on making genre pieces. And look, in the competition now for eyeballs, the better the cast you put together, the more of the chance you have of breaking through. And that isn't always appropriate. But when it is, there's a reason movie stars have existed since the beginning of cinema. They're a way for the audience to engage with the story. So as a resource, I believe in taking advantage of that.

Is there one that you've always wanted to work with that haven't had the chance? Oh, there's a lot. There's a lot. And I'm working my way through that list. I mean, look, Meryl. Meryl was somebody that I've wanted to work with since the beginning of my career. And it just took way too long for that to happen. So we're trying to make up for lost time. Are you attentive to modern movie culture, contemporary movies? Yeah. Yeah.

Very much so. Is there someone that has come along in the last five or 10 years that you are blown away by? Well, that's always awkward because it puts me in the position of being a critic which i don't want to be um you can have an emotional response without being a critic yeah but then it becomes i don't know then then then who's not mentioned becomes an issue um well i was i was rereading getting away with it and i was thinking if you were to do another version of that with a young filmmaker and you taking on the Richard Lester role, who is someone that you would want to do that with? That's the thing is the dynamic would need to be them coming to me. Well, I mean...

Because I was going to him seeking guidance and, you know, inspiration. And so I chased him down. So it would have to be somebody. And I was in a very, you know, weird place. I had really drifted off compass and had found myself, in the case of The Underneath, you know, making a movie

that I knew wasn't going to work, really. And that was a terrible sensation and really made me question what I was doing and why I was doing it. And reaching out to Richard and talking to him was a way for me to re-engage and remind myself why I loved filmmaking. And it really worked.

Like I went, while I was talking to him, I was making Schizopolis and Grey's Anatomy, and those sort of pulled me out of this rut. I was becoming a, I don't know, I was becoming a formalist. The films were getting increasingly polished, but also increasingly inert and, and sort of dead in,

in to me. And so Schizopolis to this day was kind of a detonation that, that blew away all of this rust that I was accumulating. And, um, you know, I, I didn't,

after that, it kind of didn't look back and have been operating from the energy that that project created ever since. Do you ever get concerned about where your films can be found? Because I looked at Schizopolis again on HBO Max, but then I went hunting for a movie like The Good German and it was harder to track down. So, you know, the fact that these things are increasingly diffuse and not organized, does that bother you? Do you wish that there was a more seamless way to get everything in one package? Well, I'm working on that. This archiving project that I'm in the middle of involves seven movies that I've made in which the rights have basically reverted back to me. As part of the HBO Max deal,

when I signed it, they have to go back and remaster all of the films that I've made for Warner Brothers, including The Good German. So they may be holding that back now because we're in the middle of remastering it and we want the new sort of pristine version to be out there. So I'm working on that. I do want them all, ideally, to be available somewhere in a high-quality format. So I do want to leave behind accessible, high-quality versions of what I've done. Some of the things are really difficult to find. I did a couple of episodes of a TV show in the early 90s called Fallen Angels. This show had an incredible array of talent in front of and behind the camera. I mean, the list of filmmakers

and performers were astonishing. Can't get it anywhere. I have a dub of a VHS copy that's on the Extension 765 website. It's the only version of those episodes that exist. Nobody knows where the original elements are. We can't find them. That stuff's really terrifying when you think of that wasn't that long ago. It's not like 1903. And yet nobody knows where the negatives are or how to put those back together. Can I quickly ask you about, I wanted to rewatch The Good German because I wanted to watch it as a companion with Bank

because I felt like there might have been some kinship there. You were quoted in a piece about David Fincher's movie. How do you feel about the reception of this movie? Have you followed that at all? Well, yeah. I mean, look, he's a friend of mine, so I always root for my friends and want them to be happy and to succeed.

So I think often what you find in talking about the thing that you've just done is that people will take what you've said and use that against you later, typically to make themselves look in the know or somehow above the thing that they're talking about. So, I knew given the territory that David was exploring, this was the hot white center of people wanting to look smart when they talk about your piece. So, I didn't envy him that at all because it was a real red flag, the subject matter for a lot of people. But the work will, as I said, nothing that anybody says alters any of the pixels

in the thing that they're talking about. So you just have to kind of let that go. He's getting a lot better response than we got on the good german i can tell you that well that was part of why i wanted to look back at it i wanted to see if there was something that you saw maybe 15 years earlier even just in terms of the approach i was i have to say that was weird um the the the the consistent um and and sort of passionate level of vitriol that was heaped on that movie when it came out. It was an odd situation. I stopped reading reviews the year of Traffic and Aaron Brockovich.

So the day that The Good German came out, I opened up the New York Times, and in the arts section, a rather large piece of two pages had been cut out of the paper by my wife. And I just started laughing because I thought, look, I wasn't going to read it anyway, but you've just made it clear how bad it was by cutting. I held up the paper with this giant hole in it and just started laughing. Was that really the move?

I would have just skipped over it, but now I know it must have been really ugly. that might be the one in which I got as close to what I was imagining in my head beforehand than any other time in my career. That, for better or worse, that is 99% of what I wanted it to be. And I didn't know what to make of the fact that there were other filmmakers before and since who've made sort of revisionist Hollywood genre films in which they pose the question, what if? And didn't get their heads taken off like this. So it was just odd. I didn't get their heads taken off like this. So it was just odd. Like, I didn't know quite what to make of it. It certainly wasn't a case where everybody hating it made me go back and look at it and wonder if I'd done something wrong,

because I didn't feel like I'd done something wrong. And look, you don't like it, you don't like it, but I did exactly what I was intending to do. But it's a movie that I have a very strong attachment to

and I'd be curious to see what you think 15 years later because I thought, oh, well, maybe 15 or 20 years later, people will be able to look at it and recognize what it's doing, both on a formal level, in terms of its recreation of a film grammar of that period, and on a narrative level, what Paul Adonacio did with that screenplay, I thought was really extraordinary. Yeah. I think, I think that's part of why I was asking about it.

And I was wondering if, you know, could a movie like that have the same kind of reevaluation or re-celebration or re-understanding that like out of sight has taken on in the last 10 years where I think many people just think that may be one of the best movies of the 90s. People liked out of sight when it came out. It didn't,

it didn't make any money, but it was viewed. You would read articles 10, 12 years later about Out of Sight and refer to it as a hit. That's how fondly people remembered it, that they mistakenly remembered that people went to see it. But this one, I haven't seen a groundswell of interest. Let's get started right here, Stephen. Yeah, well, as they say, if you can reach one person.

Okay, just a couple more and I'll let you go. Yeah, no problem. Your annual culture diaries are an object of fascination on this show. And I'm wondering why you keep them and if you could explain your thinking behind them. And if you know that people are fascinated by them. Why to keep them? I guess it was literally just as a reference for me. If I don't write something down, it's just gone. I don't think this is early onset anything. I think it's just keeping notebooks in which I just would write everything down that I wanted to remember, ideas for things,

responses to things, people that I needed to call, things that I needed to read. I just started writing everything down because I was in danger of forgetting things. And that sort of morphed into a sort of diary of what I was watching, not with any notations about how I aspect of it was to just draw attention to the website where we have, you know, some fun movie related tchotchkes for people to look at and the occasional re-edit or posting. Hopefully, this year, first week of January, when we drop the new list, we'll have a couple of new things on the website. I don't know that there's ultimately any grand purpose toward it other than to indicate how much I believe in my continuing education as a filmmaker. I want to be better. I want to be better a year from now than I am now. I know I'm, and when I say better, I mean, optimizing the filtering process that's at the core of being

a director. You've got potentially an infinite number of variations on the thing that you're about to execute, and your job is to filter out all of the versions that aren't great. And so the more you learn and the more experience you have, the better you should be getting, I think, at that process. And the more that you can make decisions on set about how you're going to do something, I think the better the result. I'm not a big fan of hosing things down and then figuring it out in the editing room. I think your job as a director is to make choices on set. I think also people love them because they feel like they can relate to you when you spend your

afternoon watching the conversation and your evening watching Below Deck. It just makes you seem more human to them. Well, I am human. And yeah i'm not i'm not a snob like i i like to i like to i like to watch stuff sometimes just to be purely entertained and and yeah that can change in the course of a day um and i also like to see what's going on. Why is this thing creating a big conversation in the culture and why is this other thing not? I like to, as best I can, sort of look at what's working and look imitate what's working, but there may be something there that connects to an interest that I have. I can look at it and go, wow, if people are willing to chase that, they might be willing to chase a variation of that that I've been thinking about for a while. So it's the shorthand that everybody indulges in when they go into a pitch meeting and they describe it as a combination of these two very successful things. The conversation meets below deck. That's kind of what the mall talk is, right? I do the same thing and then I make sure I end it with,

but let's be clear, it's about hope. That's a great callback to that great speech in 2013. Stephen, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. We're talking culture diaries. Okay. I'm going to look at my journal right now. Well, I can't say that this was great, but the last movie I watched was this bonkers Joan Crawford melodrama called The Damned Don't Cry. I don't know it. 1950. I'd never seen it. It was on TCM. And this thing was bonkers. I don't know it. What is the story? Can you give us a brief outline of the plot? You know, it's Joan Crawford making a series of fascinating judgment decisions about her own ambitions and the men that she wants to hook up with and how she hooks up with them. It's really kind of astonishing.

Okay. So I would encourage, I would, if you're looking for a good time, it's short and, and your, your mouth will be hanging open and how she navigates the world. I never could have predicted that recommendation. Stephen, thank you for doing the show. Congrats on Let Them All Talk. I appreciate it. Oh, thanks, Sean. We'll, we'll do it again. Thanks, man. Well, we gotta, we gotta reconnect about the good German. Yes, absolutely. I promise I'll, and I'll read you the New York Times review that you never got a chance to see in real time as well. Thank you. Thank you to Steven Soderbergh. Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. And thank you to Bobby Wagner.

Please stay tuned to The Big Picture. Next week, we're introducing a fun new gimmick, a year-end episode called the You Blew It Awards. See you then.