The Big Picture - The Summer Movie Preview Game. Plus: David Cronenberg on ‘The Shrouds.’

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Sean and Amanda briefly react to some Oscars news, including a rule requiring Academy members to watch the movies and the details surrounding the new Casting and Achievement in Stunt Design award (1:34). Then, for the first time, they play the Summer Movie Preview Game, in which they predict the box office and Metacritic score for every major summer movie release in 2025 (16:27). Later, Sean is joined by Adam Nayman to give a brief “state of the movies” before discussing David Cronenberg’s newest body horror film, ‘The Shrouds.’ They talk about its complicated and moving portrayal of grief, praise Vincent Cassel for his excellent performance, and create a “Cronenberg starter pack” for those who aren’t very familiar with the director’s filmography (1:25:06). Finally, Sean is joined by the great David Cronenberg to discuss ‘The Shrouds.’ They talk about his decision to cast Cassel in an unusual and challenging role, why he hates shooting on film and would never return, and his long-term creative collaboration with composer Howard Shore (2:06:43). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: David Cronenberg and Adam Nayman Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts, 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J-Lo, Kanye, sure. And now this show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s.

Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 songs that explain the 90s colon the 2000s, preferably on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Air Canada. Ready for your next adventure? How about taking in views upon views in Athens, browsing mouthwatering night markets in Bangkok, or dancing to carnival in the Caribbean with amazing beach breaks, city breaks, and bucket list trips to choose from? Air Canada has you covered. Start planning your trip to over 180 destinations today at aircanada.com or contact your travel agent. Air Canada. Nice travels. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is the Big Picture in Conversation show about our summer movie preview and also grief. Great. Later in this episode. Do we need the also? Well, I don't know. We're going to find out as we explore the summer box office ideas this year. Later in this episode, I do have a conversation with David Cronenberg, the legendary Canadian writer-director.

That'll be a very different part of the conversation from the one that you and I are about to have. His new film is The Shrouds. You don't know. It's an examination of grief. It's paranoia, and the way technology has invaded our souls. Cronenberg is a master, a great interview. It was great to chat with him before my talk with him.

I chatted with Adam Neyman about The Shrouds and about Cronenberg's career, what it means to us. Please stick around for both of those things. But first, Amanda. We got some Oscar rules, some new Oscar rules. They're making everyone watch the movies. We have been fucking watching them.

And now they gotta watch them. Though I did, I mean, yes, that's correct. And once like we should be allowed to vote, we do the work, et cetera. All of this is true. I didn't say I should be able to vote. Well, I mean, I think I should, but we do the work. But I did have like a moment of sympathy

for the Academy of Writers who take it seriously when I thought about how I am very often just like crushing short films on Vimeo, like three hours before we podcast our predictions to see everything. And this does add adding in, you know, it was always mandatory. It's like they're going to have to work a little bit harder. And I know that it's work. It does take time.

For the 96 years of the Academy Awards, there was an unwritten rule that you should watch all of the movies before you vote. We learned this week that the Academy announced a handful of new rules, the most significant, or at least the noisiest of which, was the fact that you do in fact have to watch everything now. Not only do you have to watch it, but there is going to be a system in which you clarify that you have watched all of the films that are contending for the prizes. One way to do that, of course, is that the Academy has this screener portal that has fully replaced the physical screeners that were sent to Academy

members. Pretty easy to check if someone's watched a movie in its entirety on the portal. Obviously this also raises some questions, right? How so? Like what? Well, you mean fast forwarding? Fast forwarding? Um, I don't think 2X is a possibility on there or 1.5X. Is it just, did you click play?

Or is it like, you know, one of the like corporate training things where they like make you sit through whatever so that you don't share state secrets. Even there, it's possible to... They should have a quiz at the end of every movie, the way that you do often in those mandatory trainings. I gotta tell you something, you don't have to watch the trainings to ace the quiz. Well, but even still, you should have to press the buttons

to complete it so we at least know someone sat through it. I'm really glad that we're able to at least talk about how sadistic that process is. How many high-powered people will pay assistants or interns to watch the films on their behalf? Or at least like cue them up or at least like hit play? I mean, they should do it. It's going to be running rampant. But then it's also...

How many people care enough? That like, that's the other question. They want to be able to vote because they want to be able to vote for their friends. Yeah, but I know they want to vote for their friends, but so they may do that in the big categories, but it just means that no one will be voting in the shorts, right? I'm not sure. Or unless they're like, are they paying someone to click play five times so they can vote for?

That's what I'm saying, yeah. I guess so. That seems like a lot of work. Well, I mean, these people have multiple assistants. Yeah, that's true. They've got kids. Not all of them. You know? Because that's the other thing.

So the other way that you can prove that you have seen a film is that you, if you go to an Academy screening, you then fill out a form attesting where and when. Yes, or a Guild screening. Or a Guild screening, where and when you saw it. So does that mean if you went to a movie theater when a movie was released, that doesn't count? I don't know. Okay. And the people that tend to line up around the block

in order to get their free appetizers and their guild screening, which I love a free appetizer as well, but they don't have assistance. They're there trying to game the system. So we'll, I guess they'll just keep going and fill out the form. I think if you are willing to take the time

to fill out a form, you know what I hate to do is fill out a form? I filled out many a form in my day. I mean, me too, but honestly, it seems a lot easier than paying someone to click something. I mean- That's, well, that's true, but that's just a testimony to the fact that you and I don't have people like that

in our lives to do that work for us. Here is the thing also. I was just imagining, like, we could get a TaskRabbit, you know? Uh... You want them to have access to your Academy portal screening? That's, I think that that is, like, the thing I would be the least worried about. That is actually a very private, that would be a very private space for me.

I know that for you. You're the only person I have ever granted screenings, screeners to. That's really nice. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I hope no one from your various guilds are listening. By an incredible service that they provide. So the question about the forum is, are they going to be fact checking the forum?

You know? I mean, who haschecking the form? You know? I mean, who has time for these things? You know, like how are we gonna enforce these rules? What else is the Academy doing? That's not true. The museum is built, the museum is built, okay? That's not true. The Academy does a lot actually.

I know. But I don't know if they have the time to do this. This level of paperwork, this banal paperwork that they have now added on top. Sure. Yeah. So people are going to be looking at all the documents that confirm the date and time for the SAG screening that occurred on September 13th, 2025. I don't know. I was wondering if you then check in at the SAG screening and then they cross reference.

I mean, it doesn't seem like that. Sounds like they need an app. Sounds like they need an app. And I will design that app. And I will become a millionaire. Anyway, to me, obviously filling out the form, just checking the guild screenings and being like, no, if I went here, it is the way to go.

We gotta get somebody from the BAFTAs on because the BAFTAs already does this. They already double check what they do. Yeah, they do this, but then they do 45 other crazy things. Well, I don't wanna hear about that. And they never nominated Denzel Washington. So, you know, it's like you win some, you lose some.

We won't be calling Jim Bafta to come talk to us about this. There's also some additional new rules for the Academy for this coming Oscars. This will be the first year for the casting Oscar. I just brought this up to Chris, because Sinners, you know, which has been a complete sensation this week, feels like a pretty ripe potential nominee in the casting category.

So the casting category will nominate potential casting directors and the folks who work on their team via the casting director's branch at the nomination stage. So the way they'll do it is they'll review the eligible films, they'll vote to shortlist up to 10 titles, shortlist very hot these days, based on the level of creative input and collaboration demonstrated during the casting process, the shortlist will then be featured in dedicated bake-off events where branch members will view five-minute reels and participate in a Q&A with the casting directors. Then casting branch members who viewed all ten will vote to select five nominees. Does this make sense?

Not totally. I mean, we like yada yada. The first sentence is just like, I don't know, we'll pick some people. The casting directors branch. So everyone will review eligible films, all films, and vote to shortlist up to 10 titles. Okay. So just open season based on the level of creative input

and collaboration demonstrated during the... Okay. So based on my I don't know. My friend called me. That's fine. Yeah. That's fine. It's kind of who do and how we arrive and all this stuff.

Yeah, and then after that, it's like then there will be a book report and then people will vote like they do and many other things. That's fine. You know, that's how they... Don't they do a similar thing for visual effects? They do. Yeah. So that seems great.

I'm thrilled that this award is being added, and I think casting directors are really deserving. This is making it apparent to me that one flaw here is that an appeal of the casting award is that you would then have all the Dynamite casts there and a part of the process. And it's like, I know it's not an ensemble award, but we're always talking about,

you want more people and recognizable people on the awards. And it doesn't seem like the process is really, you know, you're not getting any more stars. We need more famous people. I, to me, I think I'm a little bit split on that. Because I think that some movies... Like, Enora is not riled with stars, but it was one of the best cast movies of 2024.

So, to me, I don't think this is necessarily the best place just to get stars. I think it could potentially include more stars, and it could have the same effect that the SAG ensemble award has. But I don't want that to be at the expense of... I don't want it to be at the expense of an exciting... I don't want it to be at the expense either. Discoveries are a big part of the casting work, right? When you find someone and you get them in front of a great filmmaker.

So, how do we balance that? No, it's... I misspoke. It's not stars. It's just the discovery is the famous part, is the exciting part, but like, part of the find is the other person, you know? So you want... You are like, when you're responding to casting, you are like responding a little bit to the performance as well as the putting of the people together. And like both are really important and both should be recognized, but you know.

How do we determine this art form? This, what casting is, who's good at it, what does it mean to be good at it? And I'm also just like, I'm thinking about the award, and it's like, best casting. And then like, you know, if Enora won this year, and then you don't get to see anyone from Enora... who is in the cast, you'd be like a little disappointed on stage.

I'm just thinking about the show. Uh... it's a fair point. That's all. They're gonna have to find creative ways to produce that award on the show. Cinematography is also being added to the shortlist process, which means a great number of the awards categories are now being shortlisted. There's some AI guidance. Is there? I would not describe this as a rule.

I would describe this as a rebuttal to the faux controversies of films like The Brutalist and Emilia Perez reportedly using AI technologies. This is just, this is nothing. This is what was shared. The use of generative AI or other digital tools will neither help nor hinder a film's chances of being nominated. Instead, voters are instructed to evaluate the degree of human creative authorship involved.

Let's see what that reminds me of. When there's testimony in open court and then a lawyer determines that this testimony is not valid and objects. And the judge is like, ignore it. Please disregard that expert witness's testimony. It is not valid in this courtroom. So I'll be honest. Do we know that that regularly happens in court?

In your courtrooms? In like a real way. I have not spent a lot of time in courtrooms. That's a very, very useful, like dramatic... It's a screenwriting trick. There's an amazing version in The Verdict. One of the most infuriating scenes in movie history is when Paul Newman interrogates a woman

who provides just tremendous information for his case. And then immediately Milo O'Shea debunks it. Anyway, moving on. AI... What I'm reading here is that it's very good and you should use it. Is that, do you think that's what the Academy means to say? Yeah, exactly. Just like every other company. What is with everyone being like,

hey, and now you can have this with AI? Like, what made you think I wanted that? I don't know. It's really, really weird. We're gonna send you to Silicon Valley for a few weeks. They're just leading with it You're gonna knock on every door. You can pay more money For AI to like do a bad job. I don't want a specific example. You'd like to cite

I mean every like Apple my Google, you know, like literally everything. Yeah, but what about the more money part? I don't know. I just always everything's getting more expensive. I understand that's inflation and we live in hell among other reasons. What do you think we should do about that? Yeah, you know, I've... What do you think we should do with the interest rates? I run out of ideas. Freeze them, raise them, lower them. What do you want to do?

I just, I want to go back in time. Okay. Also coming in 2028, which we have not had a chance to discuss, even though this happened some two plus weeks ago. Yeah, it was while you were away. There will be a stunt design Oscar instituted for the films of 2027. Yes. So, gosh, we've made a lot of episodes where we've said that this is something that should exist.

Real hobby horse of mine personally for about ten years. And I'm delighted that they're doing it. I like the note that you made about this. I mean, we just, I think they will now make another mission impossible. Just to get one of these. They have to, and I do think so, there'll be stunt design, and of course the stunt designers, but I do think that they will figure it out so that Tom Cruise is the stunt designer and he can get his Oscar.

Like Tom Cruise can actually get his Oscar. All we have to, he just has to stay alive until 2027. Tom Cruise turned 63 in two months. So that means by 2028, he's going to be 66. Okay, but you know, so that's the award is given out in 2028 for the films of 2027. We know that they spend a lot of time making these movies. So he could be like 60, he could be 63 when the stunt is filmed. Tom wouldn't accept the Oscar.

He would give it to the guys who were the real stunt designers. I don't think that's his move. He needs an Oscar, come on. He's only a glory hog when he's explaining motion smoothing. That's the only, or advocating for seeing movies in movie theaters. No, he's literally making his own film. That's the only, or advocating for seeing movies in movie theaters. No, he's literally making his own film school that only Glenn Powell can see.

I mean, I just can't wait. Uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's great that this is happening. I think how, it reminds me a lot of the casting Oscar, which is sort of like, how do we determine what is a great stunt design and execution, which I assume is a part of this experience. But I'm excited that this will be a showcase for great and exciting movie scenes from that year. And certainly something that the telecast could use.

Are you ready to do our summer movie preview? I sure am. We've never done this before. I've come up with a new game. I don't know what the stakes of the game are. Perhaps they're just pride. Okay. But here's the game. I've still never, neither of us has ever collected on an Oscar bed.

It's on you to collect your most recent big Oscar bed. No, I know, I thought about it the last time I was at your house. What was my, what was, what did I, You were gonna make me watch a weird movie in like group setting. I have just the answer. It's all in one night. You can reorganize all day and then I'll force you to watch a weird movie at night in my dungeon. How does that sound?

No, you were gonna arrange a screening. Where? Where am I gonna do that? I don't know. You wanna watch like, solo in a screening room by yourself? No, no. And other people could... Yeah, like a big picture screening. I can't believe you don't remember this. That's fine. You don't have to.

Sure, I'll do it. Sounds good. I'm in. Uh, okay. Fine, we don't have to watch a weird movie. No, you don't have to. Sure, I'll do it. Sounds good. I'm in. Okay. Fine. We don't have to watch a weird movie. No, you will. You will. No, I think you should, I think you should watch it. Here's what we'll do.

You'll reorganize my entire physical media collection in whatever way you choose, if you choose to color code it, so be it. It's going to take a long ass time. There are thousands and thousands of disks in that room. In addition to that, once you've completed it, you'll be able to pose in front of one of the shelving spaces and we'll post that on social media. And then once that's completed, after raffling off 10 individual tickets to various listeners, you'll have to sit with them and watch Zulowski's Possession.

But in addition, you cannot communicate with any of the people in the room. They may want to talk to you, but you're not allowed to speak to them. Like until it's over or at all? Until it's over. Yeah. Okay. I mean, like, is every, are you just going to like chaperone everybody else on my ones? Everyone will be wearing a gimp mask during the screening.

Okay. Let's do this game. Okay. Fake game, but I think it's a fun idea. Boomer bust. That's what we always talk about with big summer movies. A lot of them are blockbusters. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

And they're competing against each other over this summer. Last year, as I was looking back at the 2024 summer slate, not the best. No. Not my favorite. Some fun movies, a handful of movies that were very big, but I'm trying to figure out whether or not last year is the new normal

in terms of the size and scope of the movies, or if it was just a funky year post strike and the slate didn't seem that strong and a lot of stuff got pushed into 25. So the way that we will be measuring this game is with two data points. The first is our domestic box office prediction. How much money will this make in the United States and Canada this summer? The second is Metacritic score. Not Rotten Tomatoes Metacritic, which I find to be the more accurate reflection of critical enthusiasm for a movie. So the margin difference from your guesses to the final data points will determine your score for the film. The lowest total score once we add up all the movies

we're going through will determine the winner. Okay. So here's what I mean. Let's say for example, let's use an example from 2024. Inside Out 2. You could guess, I think that movie will make $380 million in America. And I'll say, oh, I think 320. Pixar has been on a cold streak. Right. Doesn't seem great.

It made $650 million. Yes. Smash sensation, bigger than we ever could have guessed. So that chasm between your guess and the Metacritic guess, which let's, what do you think the, what do you think the Metacritic score is for Insignia 2? So just two box office first. So the chasm between. It's $650.

And $380. It's $270. $270. And then my Metacritic guess would have been 71. Good guess. Let's see what it is. The Metacritic score is 73. Okay.

Plus two. So take two. So you've got a total score of $282. 282. That's your score for that movie. 280 or 270? 270. 270. Excuse me, 272.

Mine would be significantly worse than that because I guessed that it would make $320 million. So there's large numbers in play for big movies. So the big movies are the most important ones to guess, but we'll also be talking about smaller films where there will be smaller box office and potentially higher Metacritic scores with wider gaps, depending on how we think

the films are gonna do. So, it's a tricky game. Yeah. Required a bit of study. It did. Did you spend a lot of time focusing on it? I did, once I got the assignment. As you know, I always do my homework.

I did also spend some time doing this while watching A Working Man, the recent Jason Statham film. No, I haven't seen it yet. Which was an incredible, you know... Okay, so you were really locked in on A Working Man. I was swimming in cinema, you know, and I was having like the full American experience at the box office in my room.

One thing I want to note for this game, no streaming movies. Streaming movies don't have box office. So that means another simple favor we won't be discussing. It means Fear Street Prom Queen, which is the horror movie on Netflix, we won't be discussing. Jesse Armstrong's feature film, Mountainhead, not Fountainhead, Mountainhead,

which is about four billionaires coming together amidst a crisis of some kind. Did you watch a trailer for this movie? No. Steve Carell. I'm just going to watch it. I'm with Chris on trailers. Rami Youssef.

Who are the other? Jason Schwartzman, my guy. And who is the fourth? Not just yours. Not just mine. Oh, Corey Michael Smith, of course, from May, December and Saturday night. So interesting quartet of guys. It's sort of like the CEO of Meta, the CEO of X, the CEO of Apple,

like that's what it seems like to me today. And now they want to sell you AI. Yes. Heads of State, an Amazon movie in which John Cena plays the president. The Old Guard 2, coming to Netflix. Happy Gilmore 2. And then the animated film Fix.

None of these movies are eligible for our summer movie preview game. You just reminded me, have you seen G20 yet? I have, I watched it. I really, I need to watch it. No, you don't. Well, I just, Viola Davis plays the president. I'm interested.

Yeah, I wish it was better. I mean, sure, so don't we all? I really wish it was better. I wish they gave her more to do, frankly. Do you think it could be eligible for next week's episode? I do. Okay, I'll check it out be eligible for next week's episode? I do. Okay, I'll check it out as well. It's, yes, they're in the same realm of experiences,

for sure. 2024 data points, nine movies crossed $100 million domestically last summer. I already mentioned Inside Out 2. Last summer. Last summer. Not overall. Yes.

I was like, I'm looking at a really different list than you. Last summer. So what do you think is the other $600 million movie from last summer other than Inside Out 2? Pretty easy. Yeah, it is pretty easy though. I don't know if I have it at $600 million personally, but that's just me. What is it?

Oh, Superman. No, last year. Oh, last year. Oh, oh, last year? Deadpool and Wolverine. Deadpool and Wolverine, yes. I'm not focused on the future. I understand.

We're about to get there. Two original movies were in that $100 million cohort last summer. I have the list open, but if you're watching on video, I'm looking up, so I'm not looking at my computer while I'm at the two. Look at me. You don't have to look up. You can look at me. No, but I'm thinking.

So if you're making- But if I look at you, then you won't be able to think. If you're making... But if I look at you, then you won't be able to think. If you're making weird faces. And I'm like, this is like Blackjack all over again. Stop. Um, okay. Two original movies. I was studying this all day. Whoa... Over what? Over 100 million.

Okay. So, the first doesn't count, right? Nope. That's considered a legacy. Yeah, I know. I'm aware of that. That's why I said doesn't count, right? Nope, that's considered a legacy cool. Yeah, I know, I know. I'm aware of that, that's why I said doesn't count. Two original movies over 100 million. Was one of them horror movie? Neither of them were a horror movie, though I found one of them absolutely horrifying.

I don't remember. It ends with us. Oh, sure, yeah, original. An adaptation, but in- Also was that the summer, or was that- It was August. It was, sure. Yeah. Original. An adaptation. Also, was that the summer or was that? It was August. It was late August? Yeah.

And if. John Krasinski's if. Sure. Which. We saw both of those together. We did. It was special. Let's talk about 2025.

It's a lot of movies. We're starting with Thunderbolts. Yeah. We're seeing it next week. We are. I've seen a handful of movies on this list. Not a lot. Not a lot.

Maybe I have a little bit of a leg up on you for the movies I've seen, but probably not too much to be honest with you. Thunderbolts, May 2nd. You haven't seen the Phoenicians game, right? I have seen the Phoenicians game. What the fuck? I don't know what to tell you. Focus.

It's focus, right? Yeah. I was invited to see the film. It's fine. I don't think that that's really going to give me any advantage. They also didn't invite me to the Pride and invited to see the film. It's fine. I don't think that that's really gonna give me any advantage. They also didn't invite me to the Pride and Prejudice party. So... That's fine.

What do you think the issue is there? Why do you think you're not getting the invite? I've been incredibly supportive of Focus and Wes Anderson. And Downton Abbey. Even though you won't bring Matthew Good back. Thunderbolts. Okay. Box office. Even though you won't bring Matthew Good back. Thunderbolts. Okay.

Box Office. Now, Marvel, obviously in an imperiled state. This is a big summer for them. They've got two films this summer. This is the first of the two. The name recognition is significantly lower on these characters, even though they've all appeared in other movies, with the exception of one or two.

Comes to us from the team that made Beef, the acclaimed Netflix show. What's your guess on Box Office? So I initially did this very low and kept revising it up. Okay. I've been using comps. Me as well. Sure. I mean, what else are you going to do? Even though like I think that that's a garbage way to do business or live life,

but how else are you gonna make bets right now? I know what you mean, yeah. Thank you. So my original, I just went with a Black Widow comp, and then revised it up a little bit because Black Widow was still Pandemic. Pandemic, and like I believe day and date or very soon after.

So I'm going with 215 million. So I went under that. Okay. I went 199. So I told you, but we're pretty close. We're pretty close. To me, it's actually not even necessarily a qualitative guess there. There is a whole stretch of movies in the last three years in the Marvel Universe that have significantly, quote unquote, underperformed.

Probably the Marvels is the most notable of those because it only made $84 million. I think that Captain America Brave New World eroded a little bit more trust among the normies. And since this movie is kind of selling against Sebastian Stan and Florence Pugh, who are we love, but are not huge stars. I think a little bit lower. What'd you have for Metacritic?

What do I have? 61. I had 64. Okay. I think this is going to get some polite reviews. Okay. I think people are going to be like, hey, this is not bad. Metacritic is interesting because I agree with you that it is a more accurate representation

of critical sentiment and maybe has a bit more nuance. But that does mean that almost everything's in a 15-point range. Because people are like, well, I liked some parts of this, but it wasn't perfect, so X, Y, Z. Yes, its use of nuance is actually complicated in this environment. Um, okay. You think it's going to come down to like two points? I don't, but it's fun to think that it might. Yeah, it is fun. Sure. You're right, every point counts.

You never know. And the fact that I know that you've done your homework means that we're going to have, it'll be interesting mixing it up. You and I are usually pretty close on these games. We're very rarely like stomping each other out. That's true. But I mean, this could get weird. It could get weird. Okay.

Number two is Friendship. Yes. Which is the new A24 comedy that played at the Toronto Film Festival. Last year stars Tim Robinson of I Think You Should Leave Fame and Paul Rudd. It is a movie that I can see the marketing has just kicked in. A24 just announced they're selling a hat. A corduroy cap that says male friendship on it. I've just seen the movie this week.

It is about male friendship. I'm sure you got invited to that. What are you talking about? Okay. That's fine. Check your email. Someone else in my home, I won't name any names, got to see Materialist this week. And it's just kind of like...

They let Knox see Materialist before you. Interesting. He does like the Pedro Pascal Apple commercial. He's the only one. Friendship, I liked quite a bit. I do have some concerns about its commercial process. Sure, of course. It is, if you've seen I Think You Should Leave, it is I Think You Should Leave coded.

Which I know a lot of people love and I know is a real cult hit on Netflix. Right. But as a like, let's leave our house and spend $100 kind of proposition, this is a little challenging. What did you go with for box office? So I have, I think I'm being generous here with 22 million. I went 12 million. Okay.

I'm not trying to undermine the movie, but I think it's a little bit of a tough sell. I agree. I think my comp here was, I went with like the blink twice, like I was looking, I've been looking mostly at 2024, but there's something about the Paul Rudd of it all and like a couple of recognizable names

and it is gonna be like a quote unquote cool movie. As you mentioned, there's an A24 hat. So I believe in them a little bit. I would say there was more laughing in the press screening that I went to than in any press screening I've been to in like five years. And it is extremely funny. It just needs to kind of catch a wave of word of mouth.

And we'll see if it does. I think it can. I hope it does. I'm underselling it a little bit. Okay. So, Metacritic. 80. I have 77. Okay.

I'm pretty close. Final Destination Bloodlines. This comes out on May 16th. This is, I believe, the sixth installment in the Final Destination series. Yeah, but it's been like 15 years or something? A long stretch since the last movie. Now, I love these movies. Now, I love these movies.

CR and I love these movies. We are planning to do a final destination kill rankings. All of the major kills on this pod when this film comes out. I've yet to see it. Okay. We did see a scene at CinemaCon that was really, really funny. It was really good. Wonderful. And like maybe is influencing what's going on with my...

Okay, that's interesting. Because I actually went a little lower on this. Only because of the time of... They're dumping this movie right into a very competitive corridor. I didn't... I don't think I went crazy. I did $42 million. Okay, I did $46 million. I feel like this is a reliable known brand.

Totally. It can have an absolutely $19 million opening weekend. Exactly. And then it will go down, but it can hang in for a little while. Yes. Okay, so we're on the same page there. Metacritic score, horror movie? 62.

I have 44. Oh, wow, that's rude. See, I feel like this is tipped back over into... we appreciate what they're doing here. Like the fact that you and Chris are coming and like taking the artistry of the kills seriously, there is gonna be a positivity. And it'll be like a real, it is what it is,

but we really like it, which actually does code a little bit higher in reviews in a Metacritic way. Yeah, you've tapped into an idea that I have kind of been wanting to do an episode about, which is sort of like, as folks our age slide into more prominent roles as critics and voices that contribute to these kinds of scores, that, for lack of a better phrase, the pop-timism that invaded music criticism 15 years ago is like such a big part of movie experience now.

Oh, it's like, it's genre-ism for sure. And that genre-ism is, I don't know if it can boost a movie like this. Only for certain genres, but horror is absolutely one of them. It is, but if it's not, quote-unquote, elevated horror, if it's not an A24 horror movie, it doesn't get as much of a bump as it would. You mean critically or respect-wise? Yeah. I think still studio franchise horror

still kind of gets kicked. Uh, like, yes and no, but I think that's like... You know what's a good test of this? ...in academic land. And I think, you know, more and more of the people who are going to see horror movies, which is a growing group of people. Not a growing, but I mean, just like a large and still expanding.

It's a huge part of the movie going audience right now, yeah. I think... As we're seeing this week. It reaches all audiences. Okay. movie going audience right now. Yeah. I think it's... As we're seeing this week. It reaches all audiences. Okay. I think most of them do. So you went with what's... With 62.

62. Saw X... Yeah? Got a 60. See? There. So we could see, but that was also about like a guy getting over cancer. You don't know what this is about.

I think it's about gnarly fucking kills. Well, people have a lot of respect for that, yourself included. They do. So you are, you know, you're the institution now. Speaking of long, gestating, legacy quills and gnarly fucking kills, Lilo and Stitch, live action. Yeah.

May 23rd. This is directed by Dean Fleischer Camp. OK. Last scene directing Marcel the Shell with shoes on. We have the Marcel the Shell with shoes on. We have the Marcel the Shell with shoes on book, which I find is, like, not the right medium to introduce my three-year-old to Marcel the Shell because I cannot do Jenny Slade's voice, you know?

And so it's like, the punch lines are funny, but not really in the same way when it's just me reading. I have this... I wish I could remember how I got to this number. Maybe it'll come to me. I went with 180 million. I think that's a good guess. Okay.

I think I may have mentioned this to you in the movie fantasy league that I'm in, that this was a hot commodity and in fact, I bought it for the assigned value. And I'm going with 218 million. And I also think it's going to play overseas as well. I don't- But we're not, we're doing domestic. We're just doing domestic.

But I think that it has major young millennial nostalgia and Gen Z nostalgia, Gen Z sort of like, I watched this when I was six nostalgia. Plus obviously this is, this is the big kids movie across the Memorial Day weekend. So I think it's gonna have a really, really big opening weekend and then kind of a steep drop, but I think it can get over 200, which would be good for a Disney live action movie,

you know, in the aftermath of the Snow White situation. Right, that to me, the Disney live action aspect of it all. Even though, you know, Mufasa, we know Mufasa is the new greatest showman. But... We know, we know. Well, we do. We say it a lot. What are you talking to? Don't you ever, like, just get tired of listening to us?

Like, I do. You know? What do you mean? We, I feel like we had to say, like... The overwhelming rightness or... No, but it's just like the number of times we've said, like, well, Mufasa didn't do well initially at the box office, but it grew and grew and grew. And that's it's like the greatest showman of 2024. Like, I don't know.

Poor points. Are you even regurgitating at this point? I think that was uttered maybe one time and you've become completely exhausted by it. I just didn't. Sounds like you've been reading the trades. Well, you have to do this exercise. You read all the trades coverage of Sinners. I did, yeah. You liked it.

They did a great job. A plus to everyone. You know, I think both like your tracking and your business and also your understanding of the themes of the film Sinners were all really good. Great job. A plus. Also, you're all owned by the same company, so.

That's fun. Not ideal. What are we talking about? OK, so the other all owned by the same company, so. That's fun. Not ideal. What are we talking about? Okay, so the other Lilo and Sish thing, and this is really just anecdotal, but we saw, we were talking about it, I guess with Matt Bellamy after CinemaCon, and he was like, what is this?

I don't care about this at all. And he does have a child of film going age. And so he was like, I don't know about this. So I don't know. I trust Matt. I think another thing is like, I think it looks kind of funny. And that's usually like a death, you know, signal for the box office. It just looks like a very close remake of the film, as most of these movies are. But plus, but just like expanding 27 minutes onto a story that doesn't necessitate it. But the one difference is that Lilo and Stitch is a comedy.

And is a fun movie and has like a little bit more of the antique, despicable me energy that I think is more commonly successful these days. So, I don't know, I'm banking out. What's your Metacritic guess? Fifty-six? That's exactly what I had. That's amazing. Okay. I just kind of started writing Metacritic numbers at some point. That started to get confusing. I had to kind of check myself at 1130 PM last night.

Let's go to the big dog. May 23rd, Mission Impossible, the final reckoning. So here's another thing. I haven't seen this yet. Okay. Don't worry. I have some, I guess I don't know whether... You have to make personal outreach.

Okay. You have to make connections with people. I'm going to walk off this set. You have to reach out and say, hey, I'd love to work more closely with you on these projects. I'm going to pour my water on your computer. Zach started giving me this exact speech about materialists.

Two of the goats who know how to play the game. Here's what I don't need. In this year or in any other year, is two men just telling me how email works. You won't. I'm good. What about meeting in person? What about buying someone a cup of coffee?

I'm sitting here, you know, reading box office numbers for the last five years at 10 at night, because I'm raising two children and playing your games. It's fine. This man is making it work. Never ever talk to me about emailing someone ever again. Fucking ever. If you promise to never complain about not being invited to things.

Is that a deal? That's fine. Mission Impossible final reckoning. I'm so angry. The thing about you is you don't like to email fuck off both of you. I didn't say that. I emailed money. You're bringing home issues into this podcast.

That's between y'all, OK? You were implying it, though. You started. I didn't use the word email. It's fine. I said connection. And that's what life is all about Connection especially the way you mean I have a phone I speak with people on the phone. Okay, I have zoom meetings

Yeah, I meet them at screenings. I say hello Nice to see you here Connection is what they think about. Well. Mission Impossible, finally. Yeah, this is old school. Let's go. What's your guess? 220 million. I guess 202.

Okay. I want to believe the other thing, and I was thinking about this with Lilo and Stitch, and you mentioned like older millennials. Like the older millennials are actually gonna go see Mission Impossible, we care. I hope so. We were there.

We got kids. Right. Gotta get a sitter. I don't know, some of us with older kids now are old enough to go to Mission Impossible. Maybe they're bringing their kids with them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That would be great.

So I wish Alice was 10. That's why I revised slightly down on Lilo and Stitch and slightly up on Mission Impossible. Maybe they're bringing their kids with them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That would be great. I wish Alice was 10. That's why I revised slightly down on Lilo and Stitch and slightly up on Mission Impossible. You don't think that's aspirational? I'm asking you to trust me one last time. Okay. Metacritic score.

83. That's exactly what I guessed. Okay. That doesn't, by the way, we have not made peace just because two Metacritics in a row. You gotta sit here. This is your job, man. What peace? I'm not worried about peace. Bring her back, May 30th.

I really was this close to reaching over and pouring water. Well, that wouldn't have been a good choice on your part. I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have been able to email if you'd done that. Ha ha ha. Uh, bring her back. Okay, so this is the talk to me guys, right? This is the talk to me guys. And that's the hand that talks to you?

It doesn't talk to you when you hold it, it opens up a portal to another dead dimension. And then who talks to you? The dead people whose dimension you've opened, they talk to you. But is it like dead people you knew? No, no. Okay.

It was a very effective horror movie. Yeah, no, no. I know. And a big hit. The Philippa Brothers are the guys who directed that movie. Yes. In this new movie, Bring Her Back, which stars Sally Hawkins. I haven't seen it.

I've seen a couple trailers. That's it. I feel like it does not have the same heat on it that Talk To Me had. But I don't know. There's not... Is there a horror movie? I mean, I guess it's going to, a full two weeks after Final Destination Bloodlines. Horror can work in the summer, certainly.

Sure. What's your guess? Bring her back. I guessed 48 million, which is, I just went with the Talk To Me. That's high. That would be high. That would be good. That would be a great success.

That would make it among the most successful A24 movies ever. I guess 23. Okay. I don't know. I feel like there's like a lack of viral energy around this one for lack of a better phrase. Anyway, Metacritic score. Mm, 72. 67.

Okay. Wow. You really, you don't believe in people. I feel like I would just have heard more. I guess so. You know, I got my ear on the tracks, sending these emails out, getting emails back. That's one of my... that's a great new bit. Karate Kid Legends, let me pick your brain on something.

I really want to do a Jackie Chan episode, but I need an expert. I need somebody who's seen, like, everything in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and I haven't seen everything in the 60s and 70s and 80s. Do you think people want a Jackie Chan episode? Because obviously he's a hugely important figure in movie history, really.

Yeah. Well, can you get... Will Quentin do it? Oh, God. Maybe. Well, you said expert, you know? And then people will definitely listen to it. I will, too. That would work, yeah. Well, I'll ask him. That would be interesting. There you go. That's some free producing for you.

Okay, thank you very much. What's your guess for Karate Kid Legends? Which, here's what you gotta consider. I think it's the sixth Karate Kid film, but we've had Cobra Kai on Netflix for years now. So there's a built-in base, but Karate Kid, not the most, not the strongest franchise.

I went with 113 million. That's a little, that's, that's high. I, I, Ghostbusters, the new Ghostbusters were my comps. Okay, I like how you're thinking. So, I went 66. That's probably the biggest it's high. I I'm ghostbusters the new Ghostbusters were my cops. Okay. I like how you're thinking So I went 66. Okay, that's probably the biggest gap we've had yet. Well, I don't know you could be right What's really really like that Cobra Kai stuff? They sure do especially like old men to old men Well, I'll be men your age. All right Metacritic 43 I went 42. Wow, we're really close on these.

You know, whatever. May 30th, the Phoenician Scheme, the film I have seen. I went 23 on Box Office. I went 25. Okay. So we're pretty close. Slightly higher faith in Wes. That's about where he has settled Box Office-wise, with a couple of exceptions, obviously. Grand Budapest Hotel was a very big exception to that.

And then what was the last one that got up? You know what was also big was Moonrise Kingdom. It was big. What's the, am I forgetting one in the last five or six years that had, I guess, I Love Dogs was surprisingly big. Because it was animated. Right, because it had dogs. It had dogs in it.

23, Metacritic. 78. I have 75. Okay. Which is not a value judgment on the film, I'll just say. John Wick presents Ballerina, June 6th. Yes. I got a chance to see a segment from this film that was before you arrived in Las Vegas. Oh, correct.

Yeah. Okay. I haven't seen the movie. Yeah. Box office. Now John Wick, one thing interesting about the John Wick franchise, each film has been bigger than the last.

The lowest grossing John Wick movie is John Wick. Right. Then John Wick 2, then 3, then 4, in ascending order. But this is a spinoff. This is a spinoff. Even though we do know that they reshot everything so that Keanu will show up in it at some point. Yes.

I'm going with 140 million. I'm really low balling this. Okay. I'm saying 87 million. Okay. I'm not sure if Ana de Armas is enough. Now they're working super hard. Right.

She's already doing press right now for a movie that's not coming out for six or seven weeks. Right. But I got my doubts. I based, my two comps here were two franchise spinoff movies. One of which was released in June last year, A Quiet Place Day One.

And then also Venom, The Last Dance, which I know has some of the Marvel stuff, but is still like spinoffy. Yeah, Quiet Place is an interesting comp. They were both 140, 139, so. Do you think that Quiet Place got to where it did because it was so good? Or do you think it was just like,

people like Quiet Place movies, they're gonna go forever no matter what? I was very surprised by the quality of that movie. I think I was as well, but I think people just went because it was like, oh, Quiet Place. Okay. Maybe you're right. Maybe Ballerina will get way off the top. And it also just doesn't, you know,

Joseph Quinn is now going to be a Beatle, and Lupita is Lupita, but it's, you know, not Leonardo DiCaprio. What is Ana de Armas' signature role? Ben Affleck's one-time paramour. It's tough. Not Marilyn Monroe? I mean, I hope not. Academy Award nominee.

Sure, but also we watched that movie, so. It's tough. Metacritic score for Ballerina. 57. 42. Okay. I got, I don't know, something's... I know that you have like...

A little Len Wiseman joint. That's not... I know you have really bad vibes about it, but people like Anonymous, and I think they're also going to go out of their way to be like, well, this was, you know, this was nice. So okay. Another June 6th release, The Life of Chuck. This is the new Mike Flanagan film that won the Audience Award at TIFF last fall.

It was acquired by NEON. It's written and directed by Mike Flanagan, an adaptation of a Stephen King novella. I was just talking with our friend Gilbert over the weekend about his excitement for this movie. I saw it yesterday. You're really irritating me. I wrote down $23 million and now I'm trying to figure out why. I wrote down $18 million. Okay. So we're not that far. I'm not giving a formal review of this movie. Okay.

But I will say this, it has some magic in it. Okay. That doesn't mean it's a five-star classic. Like it has the feeling of magic as opposed to David Copperfield and his alien. It has none of that. It is an odd film in a way that I think is ultimately effective. But there was a woman sitting next to me at the press screening, who, when a sequence happened, that might make your skin crawl. It's possible. I'm kind of excited to talk to you about it.

Because I think you could go either way on it. But she was like, you know when someone's just vibrating because they love something? Almost like when you see a band perform that you love and you're like, oh my God, they're playing my song. She was like that during one sequence. Okay. So, there's a world where it's like a $70 million movie a band perform that you love and you're like, oh my god, they're playing my song. She was like that during one sequence. So there's a world where it's like a $70 million movie

and people are like, this is the heartwarming sensation of the year. Or it's just the small indie and it's another Stephen King adaptation and that's it. They want it to be Stand By Me. They want it to be The Shawshank Redemption. They want it to be Sirius King with a real incredible sense of humanity.

Right. It feels like I have not seen it. I've only, I only know that it won the Toronto People's Choice Award, which is kind of a curse in my opinion at this point, or signals to me something about sentimentality and corniness. It is sentimental.

Well, and that's not true for, that's not fair to American fiction, which I thought was very emotional. I thought very unsentimental. But unsentimental and not corny at all. This just honestly seems cheesy. There's a cheese factor. Yeah. But that doesn't mean I didn't like it.

And frankly, good cheese, I think, is a good thing at the movies. You have 23. I have 18. Metacritic score, what do you got? 62. I have 66. I think it's sitting now at like 71 because of the festival reviews, but it's a very small number of festival reviews.

How to Train Your Dragon, June 13th. This is the live action remake that we've seen and we saw at CinemaCon. Box office guess. Tough one. Yeah. Did you look at the comps for the other How to Train Your Dragon movies? I did, but that didn't... And then I also looked at live actions and then this is a universal,

so I kind of looked at like universal kids stuff because of how they're, you know, positioning everything. This movie has a hard cutoff though, because it's scary. Some of the Dragon stuff is scary. I did 250 million. That's definitely where they'd like to get. I did 168. I feel definitely where they'd like to get. I did 168. I feel like maybe I'll second guess myself

and I think you might be closer to right. This is also a very sturdy, long-running franchise. And this is the first time Universal's really done this. And they also already announced the second one, which to me signals... I think they got the goods. Yeah. No, you might be right. I might be underselling this one pretty hard. And it's the same filmmaker who co-directed

the animated films, Dean DeBlois. So people really like dragons. They do. They do. Hence the success of Game of Thrones. All those other Game of Thrones. The film Dragon Slayer, film I enjoy. Rain of Fire. Lord of the Rings. What are some other dragon-laden items? My husband had out some of his, like, beloved fantasy books. I don't know, we were rearranging books. And my three-year-old saw them and just very instinctively was like, what are those? Who is that?

And I was like, oh, this is a primal thing. I've been waiting for this. Yeah. I've been waiting for, I introduced my son to... He was just like, look at these things. How can I know more? What did he say about the woman with the heaving chest on the cover of the book? I don't know if he saw that one. Okay.

Those exist, just so you know. I mean, I'm definitely aware of it. Especially the ones that Zach has read. Okay, moving on. Materialists, oh, actually Metacritic score, what did you say? For How to Train Your Dragon? 62, I said 74. Wow.

I think these films are loved. I thought, but the live action at all. I thought it would just be like a polite 62. Okay. You know? We have a difference. Materialists, which your husband has seen, I have not seen, comes out on June 13th.

It's the new film, the second feature from Celine's song that stars Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans, and who's the third that I'm forgetting? Pedro Pascal. Pedro Pascal, of course. I wrote down 25 million. I wrote down 9 million. Okay, that's rude. It is rude. What was, what was past lives box office? It was 11.

Yeah, I think I was using that as a framework. Yeah. I don't know. I think I maybe I'm, I'm nagging some of the A24 stuff a little bit. Yeah. I don't know why. Well, we're getting to Eddington. That's coming up soon. I am looking forward to Materialist.

I really like Celine's writing. I think that Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans and Dakota Johnson. Three recognizable names and plus Celine Song. Three of our greatest Marvel heroes. Well, I know, well. Yeah, we've got. And then, and the past lives of it all. Mr. Fantastic, Captain America and Madame Webb.

Right, and that, I don't know, people will go see it. I hope so. If it's good, if the reviews are really good, that will help, that will get people excited. Little iffy on that trailer, personally. I mean, I'm excited for half of it. I agree with you guys that we're on Pedro Pascal over exposure. Yeah.

He's, I have not enjoyed the last of us first two episodes. Okay. 28 years later. One of my most- Wait, you guys did not give your Metacritic score for Materialist. Thank you. Thanks, Jack. Metacritic score for Materialist. Thank you. Thanks, Jack. Metacritic score for Materialist.

73. 73 is what I have. That's really weird. What do you mean? You're not going to get me to warm back up to you. I'm still pissed. Pissed about what? Pissed that your husband told you you've got to send emails?

That's your problem. You told me to send emails, too. You're so obnoxious. 28 years later. It's really, really annoying. You told me to send emails too. You're so obnoxious. 28 years later. It's really, really annoying. You guys are very excited for this. I just wrote down the bias office for Civil War. Which was what? 68 million.

I wrote 88 million. This is the third film in the 28 series. First in a very, very long time. Danny Boyle, Alex Garland reuniting. I don't think this has a ton in common with Civil War, but I hear what you're saying. Same writer. I just, you know, it was a comp. And it just seems like the same, like a real overlap

in film going, film goers, like the same demo. Same more. Yeah, just, I don't know, like you and Chris basically. You mean like cool guys? Yeah, yeah, exactly. The cool guy demo? Yeah. I have 88 million.

OK. I think the marketing's Yeah. I have 88 million. Okay. I think the marketing's been very good for this movie. And I think high class studio horror is an interesting opportunity for studios that they should look at. They basically were like, yeah, Blumhouse will handle this. A24 will handle this. Giving real artists money to make horror movies

is always a good choice. Ask Stanley Kubrick, ask Roman Polanski, ask, there's a long history. Obviously Jordan Peele has been showing us. You don't need to relegate them to like, yeah, you'll get five million for this movie. So I think this movie could do well. Metacritic score?

77. I have 83. Okay. It's Danny Boyle. Yeah. I don't know what it what it what did I wonder what 28 Days Later did because that movie was why they claimed. 77 and 83 is not really that different. No they're close they're close. 28 Days Later had a 73. There you go. Um okay. What's next on the list? Also Metacritic is really hard to get over 80. It is really hard.

It's one of the triggers in our auctions for that reason. You said it at 85, which is insane. Well, have you looked back at the auction recently? You know, CR got sinners. Yeah. That's going to turn out looking very good when it gets nine Academy Award nominations. It makes $250 million. Elio, new Pixar film, an original film.

June 20th is the release date. They're very nervous about it. It seems like it, right? Yeah, why did it get a June 20th release date if they're so nervous about it? Cuz you the money spent I guess so so you gotta you gotta sell what you have They punted it out of 2024 and put it into 2025. I Did 120 million. I have a hundred and seventeen million This would obviously put it on the very low end of Pixar films, but in that zone of like the good dinosaur onward, you know, originals that are unattached to other IP.

Right. And then when this movie doesn't do that well, they'll immediately green light Finding Nemo 3 and... They're gonna do that anyway. ...Car 6 and yeah, they're gonna do it anyway. Metacritic. 72? Iic. 72. I also chose 72.

This is very interesting. Uh, okay. F1. A polite 72, you know? Yeah, I'm sure it'll be a nice movie. Okay. F1. June 27th.

Yeah. Warner Brothers is distributing this Apple original film starring Brad Pitt as a race car driver who's old. His name is Sonny, but he's still got some juice left. Yeah. It's a classic, tale's old this time. We didn't talk about watching the first 10 minutes of this film at CinemaCon, which we did.

That's what we were shown. We couldn't figure out if it was actually the first 10 minutes. Right, or whether it was. Or if it was chopped up in some way. Here's what I'll say. Yeah. It was set to a Led Zeppelin song and that part of it was fucking sick. I really enjoyed that.

I liked what I saw. Yeah, as did I. I liked what I saw. It looks cool. It looks cool. It looks like it has a tremendous amount in common with Top Gun Maverick, which is one of the great films. Yes, you noted that the cutting style was very similar.

The cutting style and honestly, like the shot composition and the storytelling, you noted that the cutting style was very similar. The cutting style, and honestly, like, the shot composition and the story telling, like, whatever. I'll do my... Kazinsky has a style. I'll do, like, my diagram, you know, when it comes out. You should, that's like your telestrator. Yeah, maybe like the John Madden of Joseph Kazinsky's cinema.

Here is the gratuitous shot of their bicep. Yeah, an insert shot of a man's keys and his wallet. And here's his rumpled hat that he wears whenever he goes fishing. Here is a framed photograph to show you that once upon a time, Yeah, an insert shot of a man's keys and his wallet. And here's his rumpled hat that he wears whenever he goes fishing. Here's a framed photograph to show you that once upon a time, he had emotional connections, but not so much anymore. Okay, 178 million. I have 132.

Okay, you think it's gonna go down? This was, I think... I don't know. I just wrote the Dead Reckoning box office in, because I know that they're different filmmakers, but, and I don't think it's gonna go to Maverick Heights, box office in because I know that they're different filmmakers, but And I like I don't think it's gonna go to Maverick Heights But I do think it's sort of like it is trying to position him in the cruise Look at what this person that you've known forever is doing with cars going really fast. I

Just think in America F1 is not the same thing as it is as an international F1 is not the same thing as it is as an international property. I know it's very popular, but we're actually like now five years out from Drive to Survive being a phenomenon. I don't think there's as much enthusiasm for it here. There still is. I'm not saying there is not, but something just feels a little off. I agree with you.

I don't think that it's going to be anywhere near maverick. Obviously that was a phenomenon for its own reasons because it it was kind of the first real movie after the pandemic. Um, I don't know, it just seems big and loud. And, like, people could get excited about it being big and dub and loud. Okay. I'm looking forward to seeing it. Megan, 2.0. We didn't do Metacritic.

Oh, I'm sorry, Metacritic. I have 74. I have 61. Oh. I... That is, you know, still respectful. Metacritic. I have 74. I have 61. Oh. That is, you know, still respectful and Metacritic. You might be right. I don't, you know, I don't know if you... If it's a reheated souffle, it's a reheated souffle, you know? Will you say that on this podcast?

This is a reheated souffle? Sure. Okay. If it is, then it is. Megan 2.0, June 27 Sure. Okay. If it is, then it is. It is. Megan 2.0, June 27th. Mm-hmm. We know what this is. Mm-hmm.

We got a little taste of it at CinemaCon as well. We sure did. I met two Megans. You met two Megans at the party I heard. Yeah, you weren't there. Did you mention that on the pod? I did, yeah. Okay.

And I posted the photo on my Instagram. Did you? Yeah. What kind of engagement did you get? Stories only. On stories. You wouldn't put that on the grid. No. You wouldn't dare. Because then Megan would be on the grid forever, and then you don't want that because she's AI,

and then she's going to get into your system. You don't want that. Yeah, correct. Megan 2.0, The Terminator 2 of AI robot female assassin movies. I have 99 million. I have 90. Pretty close. That's pretty close to where the original was,

which was a surprise sensation. Exactly, and also had a big viral TikTok the original was, which was a surprise sensation. Exactly. And also had a big viral, tiktok-y moment, which was very funny. Like, they played it perfectly, but... Recreating that will be hard. Exactly. I kept it under 100.

So did I. And also, it is the same day currently as F1. And I think... A little bit of crossover. A little bit of crossover. And I do think, like, if you're going to the theater, you'll probably go... C, F, Y. Like, I don't know how many people besides me, honestly, are like, ooh, it's Megan. Like, I gotta go...

It's fascinating counter-programming. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a horror movie that is targeted, you know, that movie had a big queer fan base, had more of a female fan base than you're likely to see. All the lead characters were female. It had a kind of kitsch quality, a camp quality that people were responding to. Which they're actually playing into.

Like at CinemaCon, like 30 Megans came out and danced to Oops I Did It Again, which is the song animating the trailer. That was very funny. I wrote, I wrote that song. So it's, I'm getting residuals on that performance. I have a 64 on Metacrit getting residuals on that performance. Congratulations. I have a 64 on Metacritic. 68.

Okay, pretty close. Okay, here's a Big Daddy. Jurassic World Rebirth. Yeah. It's released on July 2nd. Another Universal film. This is the seventh Jurassic film. You looked at the comp for all the previous Jurassic movies.

I did. Jurassic Park movies make a lot of money. Yes, there's a reason why they shotgunned this movie two and a half years after the last one because they make a shit ton of money. I know. Globally, they're huge. I know. And I get it. Huge.

Yeah. I mean, I think it looks good. 384 million. I have 366. Okay. I think those are good guesses. I think it's not gonna be the absolute phenomenon the Jurassic world was when that movie kind of revived, rebooted the franchise.

But Scarlett Johansson, Mahershala Ali, Jonathan Bailey, it's got some wicked fans coming in the door. So in this story, they go to an island. Turns out there's dinosaurs there. It's crazy. Somehow there's some kids on the island. They're on a boat at one point, and there's

dinosaurs in the water. And then some dinosaurs fly. And then there's a new dinosaur. You've never seen it before. It's like a new monster dinosaur. And then it figures out how to get into a place where it's not supposed to be. And it seems like they're stupid,

but they're actually smart. It's a crazy idea for a movie. Can't believe they're doing this finally. So Jurassic World Rebirth, Metacritic score. I'm going to write down 70. 58. Wow. You know, your heart's not open to this. I know.

Why is that? I don't know. Because I think that this is like a little, it's the same thing with Marvel. It's like we had this. This stuff had its run, it had its time. It was very important to movies, you know, for the studios to make a lot of money for a certain period of time. But I'm like, we're done.

This is fast, X to me. We had like 35 Marvel movies. And this is the sixth? This is the seventh Jurassic film. The thing in its favor is that it's Gareth Edwards. It's the guy who made Rogue One and the Creator. And he's an excellent filmmaker. It's the guy who made Rogue One and the Creator, and he's an excellent filmmaker. He's not a great writer. And so he's got a writer on this movie,

so maybe it'll be good. But even just the trailer, it's Scarlett Johansson being like, uh-oh, that's not good. She looks like Lara Croft, and then she's gonna run around. She's beautiful. She's a great movie star.

Wait, so what else do you want? I don't know. I just want a little more. Sinner showed me. We can do, we can all do this together. Yeah. We can all do this. Give incredibly gifted people a lot of money to make something original.

And then we can all get behind it together. You can't make sinners every single day. It's like, it's disrespectful. The sinners should be like, yeah, just get out here. Everyone makes sinners. No, you are the person who told me this, that you have to have standards. I have standards?

You have to have standards. Everyone listens every week and knows I have standards. You can't be like, oh, well, sometimes you get a dress or what? No, Hollywood, step it the fuck up. There are plenty of things that you just let in and you're like, cool, I'll watch, you know, the 45th bad slasher movie just because I like, and that's fine. And I'm okay with dinosaurs every three years.

Those movies don't cost $300 million and sit on the July 4th weekend. It's not your money. But the point is that money should go to other big projects. That's my point. You know I'm right about this. You know I know you agree with me. It's paying for the other projects. Maybe it is. Maybe it is.

Like, let's never make a- Bring this energy to the Thunderbolts conversation, okay? Let's never make a Marvel movie again. I think it's, they're so stupid. I'm good. We're done. But I just, every three years, letting dinosaurs roam around and letting the John Williams score hit super hard in the theaters. Why not a new dinosaur story that has nothing

to do with Jurassic Park? What is it? I don't know. Let's come up with it. OK. When I was on Blade Check, I was like, why has there never been a good dinosaur movie that isn't a Jurassic movie?

Because what else is there going to be? Are you going back in time, and then you're just living with the dinosaurs? Good idea. Adam Driver did it. Really boring. That was bad. Yeah.

That was bad. OK. So you're saying that you can't make a good dinosaur movie. I just, I would like to hear your idea. I'm not a filmmaker. If you're so angry. That's not what I do. But there are thousands, millions of them out there

who have great ideas and they need to be trusted. I think it's sick to be able to watch dinosaurs fuck around every couple years. Okay. All right. I know. And I like... Well, you gave such vivid reviews of Jurassic World Dominion on this show. I don't know what happened with it.

I probably didn't even see it, but I don't care. Okay. All right. Duly noted. So you're all in on this movie. So you think 99 Metacritic score for Jurassic World Creeper? I said 70. Okay. 58. Uh... Here we go, Superman.

Yeah. July 11th. Probably the most important movie of the summer. OK. All right, relax, Mr. Minecraft, you know? That's right. Warners is back. You just keep everything is suddenly the most important thing, except for Jurassic World,

because we can't honor dinosaurs. Is Alice not into dinosaurs? Maybe this is the other thing. She loves dinosaurs. Yeah, so. Loves. Is obsessed. We were playing dinosaurs this morning. She was like, I'm a velociraptor, and you're a other thing. No, she loves dinosaurs. Yeah, so. Loves, is obsessed. We were playing dinosaurs this morning.

She was like, I'm a velociraptor and you're a velociraptor and we are a pack and we hunt together. That's sick. It was awesome. Those movies are way too scary to bring to her. No, of course. Superman, I don't also think is a movie

that I'll bring her to. It looks kind of violent for a Superman film. Are they not supposed to be? Like what? I think the Richard Donner movie is PG. Okay, whatever. I mean, I understand that this is the problem with Superman. Superman film? Are they not supposed to be? Like, what? I think the Richard Donner movie is PG. Okay, whatever. I mean, I understand that this is the problem with Superman.

Like, he's boring. And he just, like, does good and then has a cage. We're gonna find out. James Gunn's new film relaunching the DC cinematic universe. Box office. Amanda. Four ten. So I went way low. You went way low. I, you're going way low. I am. I'm not sure why.

But there's no, it's not Price is Right. I went 257 million. Okay. The history of Superman at the box office, let's do a quick recap. Now obviously there's a long gap between certain films here, but the highest grossing movie with Batman in it, in America, is Batman v Superman, Dawn of Justice, directed by Zack Snyder. It made $330 million. What year did that come out? 2016? Correct.

I think... This is at the height... Yeah, yeah, yeah. ...of the superhero boom. Number two is Man of Steel, which came out in 2013, made 290. Right. A couple things there, in my thinking. Number one, at that time, the height of the superhero boom,

it was really the height of Marvel. Mm-hmm. And these movies suffered in comparison to Marvel and their darkness and their muddiness. Like, people were very much on the, you know, let's make some jokes and save the world trade. So, there's that. I do also, I used James Gunn as a comp.

Um, and he was obviously working in the Marvel universe I do also, I used James Gunn as a comp. Mm-hmm. And he was obviously working in the Marvel universe for a while and got that bump, but there is something, and we saw in the footage, like, sort of corny about what he does that people really seem to like. And then I honestly just think that this movie's just called Superman, and that's really smart. Like, I just, it's just, it's really, really,

I don't know that people are gonna like it. What number did you say again? I said 410. So four, if it makes 410, that would make it, if it makes 411, that would make it the 11th highest grossing movie of the 2020s. What else is, I mean, I don't know that people are gonna like it, but I think people liking it versus people going.

The thing is, you need to repeat business to get to those numbers. And like, the Marvel was very good at getting people to go a second time. I think I'm negging it because I think people are pumped for Fantastic Four. Oh, interesting. See, I guess... You know what I'm saying? And that's two weeks later. I understand that. Let me articulate my thinking. I think that you will probably not like Superman very much. I don't know.

I need to like emotionally. I'd like to. I know, but I think you're gonna be a little more like, I don't know what's going on here and how do I feel about that? You're gonna be like very complicated. Could be. I think most people will be like, oh, I went to see Superman movie

and it was like funny and fun. And I like the work of James Gunn. And it will be sort of like an uncomplicated. Do regular people know who James Gunn is? I guess by regular people, I mean, regular movie consumers. You mean movie fans. Yeah, movie fans.

Okay, okay. The thing is, these movies just need more than that. They need more than movie fans. Yeah, movie fans. Okay. The thing is, these movies just need more than that. They need more than movie fans. They need normal people. But that's why I think like Superman, that's it. That's all that it's, you know, that's it's really, really easy. It's just like Barbie, Superman. We don't have colons.

We don't have the last reckoning. We don't have whatever. Yep. I don't know. I think I don't think that last reckoning. We don't have whatever. Yep. I don't know. I think I don't think that I'll like it, but I do think that it might work. Six months ago, I was 100% with you on this in terms of that number, where I was like,

I think this will be the biggest Superman movie ever, obviously not adjusted for inflation. I think it's so important to the studio, yada, yada. And now I'm kind of like, I've seen 10 minutes of footage. I've seen James Gunn speak about it at length. Yeah, but that soured us on it in a way that I just don't think. Okay, what'd you have for Metacritic?

What do I have? 68. That's exactly what I had. Okay. July 18th, Eddington, come to topple Superman. Sorry, Astor. A24 movie. Um, apparently a 2020 set. Yeah.

Western drama about COVID in New Mexico. I have 28 million for box office. I wrote 23. Okay. And just now in my head, I was thinking about revising it down. Bo is afraid made nine million. Bo is afraid it's three hours long. Yeah, but like-

And wildly unlikable to for any normal human that isn't me. I actually admired it. You know, I will go anywhere with Joaquin, including to Eddington, but I- Thought you were gonna say something else. No, I still haven't seen Joker 2. including to Eddington, but I... I thought you were gonna say something else. Oh, well, no. I still haven't seen Joker, too. This isn't reading, like,

classic horror movie hereditary style, you know? It's not. So I think that there's gonna be a lot of people being like, I don't know, that looks pretty weird. I could go see Superman again. I think at this time of year, the real cinema heads are gonna be starving. Starving. Because I think F1 and Superman

are going to disappoint them a little bit, and then we're going to have a full month since 28 years later. OK. So 28, you know, is not that much bigger than 23. But what? Just, just... You're, um...

Speaking of my people. You're profiling of, you know, quote unquote, real cinema heads and what you outlined. I'm talking to the homies. Talking to all the homies out there You're... Speaking of my people. You're profiling of, you know, quote unquote, real cinema heads and what you outlined. I'm talking to the homies. I'm talking to all the homies out there who are supporting Ari and no real movies. Right.

Metacritic? And hate dinosaurs. 67. 91. Okay. I actually haven't looked back at what Ari's previous films are. I think this movie is probably going to annoy a lot of people, but I think it will be critically acclaimed. Sure, but even I think his critically acclaimed movies

have not been at 90. Is that true? Where's Hereditary at? I think Hereditary was maybe 80, and that's the highest one, so... I'm taking a swing. You know, that's great. The Smurfs movie? Speaking of swings, featuring the voice of Rihanna.

Sure, a Smurfette. Smurfette. They couldn't get Rihanna to Comic-Con, to Cinema-Con though. No. Maybe she'll go to Comic-Con. She recorded a video. Are they doing the Smurfs movie at Comic-Con?

How many issues of the Smurfs comic have you read? Zero. Okay. I think I watched a TV episode or two, once upon a time. I mean, I'm familiar with their lore. No, I'm not familiar with their lore. I'm familiar with them. What is their lore? not familiar with their lore. I'm familiar with them. What is their lore? They kind of live under small trees.

Sure, absolutely. I think maybe you're thinking of Keebler elves. Um, anyhow, moving on box office. They wear hats that are not dissimilar to the Keebler hat. We're going to get through this, I promise, together. You and I, we're going to rebuild our relationship. We're going to get through this entire process. You asked me to do the sorry that I'm ringing bits about the Smurfs.

You put it in the document. The Smurfs movie will make how much money? 90 million? I have a 114. I feel like there's a little secret hit going on here. I... Alice saw a Smurf at an Academy museum and was like, that's my best friend of all time. My comp was Garfield movie, which was 91.

So I didn't see that movie, but I heard it was Hot Trash. Oh yeah. I heard from a guy who likes Garfield. I met a kid on the beach who said that, uh, he went to school, someone he went to school with dad is Garfield. And I was like, oh, you mean Chris Pratt. So that's cool. That was, that's my connection to the Garfield movie.

You met a kid on the beach? Were you on the beach alone looking for children? Also with my child. And Knox started like hanging out with the other child. And I like try to engage the other kids, you know? Absolutely. You don't? Uh, no, not really.

I'm good. Oh, God, strange child. I don't want to have to talk to some child about Chris Pratt being his dad. Well, I think he volunteered it, you know? And it wasn't his dad. It was a friend at school. But it was important with him because it was like Garfield movie time. It was last summer.

This is the energy you need to bring to the publicist who will let you see movies. This kind of sunniness, this kind of openness. I'm incredibly kind to the publicists. Okay, sure, absolutely. I'm hearing that more and more every day. Metacritic score for the Smurfs movie? Thirty-four.

I wrote 39. We are close. I know what you did last summer. We've just gotten a trailer for this. This is also a legacy sequel of a film that's important to all the real Jennifer Love Hewitt knowers out there. And also the real 90s kids. Like, if you remember this, like, then you're legit.

Big summer horror movie from the 90s in the aftermath of Scream and the phenomenon that Scream became. Looks like Freddie Prinze is also back. Right. Sarah Michelle Geller was annihilated by the Hook killer in the first film, so she's not back. And she was asked, are you coming back? And she said, no, I'm dead. No, she was...

And she and Freddie Prinze Jr. are still married, which is really lovely. Very sweet. They seem happy and like nice people. Um... This movie stars Madeline Klein, and Freddie Prinze Jr. are still married, which is really lovely. Very sweet. They seem happy and like nice people. This movie stars Madeline Klein, who's best known for some anonymous streaming show that a million people love that I don't know about. Is it Ginny and Georgia? Is it Outer Banks?

Is it... Let's see, because you know what? Summertime Hoedown? Madeline Klein, Outer Banks. Outer Banks. Okay, which I only recently learned. She was also in Glass Onion, the Knives Out film. OK.

She's very famous. It seems like she's on Stranger Things as well, according to this summary. I'll take your word for it. You never watched Kind of Pregnant? I never did. One of the Ginny and Georgia women is on Kind of Pregnant. I thought she was pretty good.

Who? What's her name? Is it Ginny or Georgia? I don't know. Let's find out in real time. Ginny and Georgia. It is Georgia. OK, it's not like the state of Georgia. It's not like Ginny moves to? I don't know. Let's find out in real time. Ginny and Georgia. It is Georgia. Okay, it's not like the state of Georgia.

No, no, no, no. It's not like Ginny moves to the state of Georgia. Ginny and Georgia. No. You know? Like Sean in Wyoming. No. It's not my dog whose name is Wyoming.

It's me going to the state of Wyoming to live in Jackson Hole. No. It seems like it's... No cells. Just remarkable for me. I'm insane. I was reading the plot summary of Ginny and Georgia, which seems like it No sells, just for more. No, I was reading the plot summary of Jenny and Georgia, which seems like it's sort of Gilmore Girls-esque. Great. We're doing good work here.

I know what you did last summer, Metacritic score. We didn't do Box Office. Sorry, 66 million. 41 million. Low selling this one. Okay. I'm... Trap was my comp, which is, you know, you bring out... Wow. Excuse me, we both liked Trap was my comp, which is, you know, you bring out... Wow.

Excuse me, we both liked Trap, and it brought back a beloved star. This movie's gonna be way worse than Trap, but it's gonna be, I think, more liked, actually. Okay, well, take that up with your people. This movie's directed by Jennifer Caton Robinson. Yeah, I've never liked a thing that she's made. 43 on Metacritic. I have 54. Maybe that was too kind.

You might be on to something. Here's an interesting one, the fantastic four first steps. OK. Big trailer release for this movie last week. Yeah, didn't watch it. We saw Julia Garner as the Silver Surfer character. Vanessa Kirby's pregnant. I notice you and Chris aren't talking about that

when you're talking about the trailers and the content. I'm the father and I'm trying to keep it under wraps. So just, uh, no, we're very happy for her. OK. I mean, no, not Vanessa we're very happy for her. Okay. I mean, no, not Vanessa Kirby, the person, the character. Oh, the invisible woman. Yeah. It's pregnant, right? Sue Storm?

Yeah. Uh, sure. That's a, that's canon. Is it? Yeah. They have a kid. So in the, oh, it's canon because they have a kid, so she can be pregnant. Sorry.

I thought it was Canon that she's... You thought that was some astounding reveal. She's a modern woman. She's both invisible and a mother. I thought it was Canon that she's always pregnant. Uh, like in perpetuity? Yeah, that's what I thought you were saying. Oh, no, no, no, no. You mean like all women? No, I don't... I think... I'm pretty sure in the comics,

they have a kid. Her and Reed Richards. Okay. Okay, box office for Fantastic Four. I don't I think I think I'm pretty sure in the comics she has a kid a kid her and her and Reed Richards, okay Okay box office for Fantastic Four I've totally forgotten the reasoning behind any of the numbers at this point. So I'm just reading out what I wrote down This has been a very normal game and a good episode. It was your idea. I'm pleased with it We needed to bring this energy back to the show if I'm being quite honest Just yelling about you rolling, you know? We're good. I'm so tired. I stayed up so late looking at all the box office.

And I just... I don't like email. Uh, 390 million. I have 378 million. We're very close. Okay. Metacritic? 56. 67. Okay. I think this8 million. We're very close. OK. Metacritic? 56. 67. I think this is where the bounce back happens. All right. I think you want to believe that, but OK.

It'd be nice. I have to see these movies for the rest of my life. I'm getting like, I'm getting weird Spidey since off this one. OK. I know it's a cursed franchise or whatever, and some of that is just like a Pedro Pascal enough. There just seems to be an enthusiasm maybe that I don't even personally have, but in the world. People seem to be liking the trailers,

they like the look, the retro-featuristic style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They like the cast. There's just a vibe that feels positive. The movie may not be good, but we'll see. The Bad Guys 2, animated movie from DreamWorks, featuring the vocal talents of Sam Rockwell. I'm happy for him.

Last movie was a pretty big hit. It was in the neighborhood of 100 million. What do you think about this one? 118 million. Whoa, you went big. I went 84 million. I feel like this movie was like fake famous, you know? I think... You feel like it was like influencer famous?

Or was it like, oh yeah, whatever happened to her? She's like 19 years old. No, I've like interacted with a lot of young kids who know about bad guys. Including like your no, including your child's class. There's like a bad guys contingent in. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And I didn't really I didn't know about the bad guys until CinemaCon and bad guys to trailer

play and I was like, oh, this must be why there and then there were some other kids just randomly on the playground like playing bad guys and they were a little older and they were like kind of intimidating knocks and so I inserted I was just like, oh, are you guys playing bad guys and they were like, no, we don't play bad guys. We are bad guys. And then we left the playground. But so see it has a it has a community. And all of those wonderful young men are ticket buyers for the bad guys too. It's in August. Like, what are you going to do with your children? You are going to be desperate.

You're going to go see bad guys too. We haven't seen bad guys one. Well? We'll see. You've got a few months. We don't do a ton of male-coded animated movies. Well, that's on you. No, it's really a point of preference.

Okay, let's keep it moving. We gotta get through this somewhat more quickly. Wait, we need your metacritic scores for that guy too. Metacritic scores for The Bad Guys 2. 54. 61. Just a few more left here. The Naked Gun.

That's not true. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. The Naked Gun. Okay. Uh, I wrote down 42 million. 62 million. Okay. Liam Neeson in a comedy remake reboot spin-off. I thought it looked funny. You and Matt Bellamy definitely thought it looked funny

at CinemaCon. Did you take a spin down Liam Neeson's box office recently? It's been hard times, but I think that that's due to the material he's been choosing post taken. I think it looks good, but I think that's due to the material he's been choosing. Sure. Post taken. I think it looks good, but I was taken aback, I will say.

And it's not- There was a moment in that nonstop, the commuter, a walk among the tombstones, that era when it was still doing pretty well. Yeah. This depends on people showing up for a comedy. Maybe I'm wrong. I, the vibes were good amongst the 40-something dudes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I say 62 million and a 59 Metacritic score. 53 Metacritic score. Together. This is the Dave Franco, Alison Brie body horror film that played Sundance. Awesome trailer for this movie at Cinécom. Yeah. Awesome. 36 million?

I wrote 16. Okay. I could see what you're describing happening though. Because there's a lot of buzz, again, August, like the other options are respectfully like the Naked Gun or Fantastic Four, which you've seen however many times, or you don't really care about. Yeah, it's a good date for that movie for sure. Metacritic score for Together?

70. I have 82. Okay. Did very well coming out of Sundance, but I didn't look at where it sits right now. Freakier Friday, August 8th. Now, I don't mind saying I thought the footage from this movie at Cinemicon was downright dreadful.

But I think Freaky Friday is a fun movie. Yeah. And people love it. And it was a big hit back then. I think it made over $110 million, whatever, back in 2007 or whatever it came out. I think also some of the feedback that I got from the Gen Z focus group was that there wasn't enough talk about that generations, like girl-coded movies like Princess Diaries, like Freaky Friday, you know? All of that good stuff. So it definitely has a following

and a following with people who are now grownups. Yes, nostalgia with money to buy tickets. Yes. I said $117 million. I said $72 million. Okay. Which was the Mean Girls. My thinking on this was the same as yours around Together,

where I'm like, there's not a lot out here. What is it really competing against? What are kids seeing before they go back to school? Like the tweens? But also sexism. So you were like, I think this looks dreadful. So I think other people probably will think that too. I thought you thought the filmmaking was bad.

I mean, but that's how it is. It looked like it was shot with a potato. I couldn't believe it. All right, so Metacritic for Freakier Friday? 44. 48. Weapons, August 8th. They released the trailer or a teaser this week.

Did you watch that? No, but I did see the trailer. You saw the full trailer at CinemaCon. Yeah. Very effective teaser. Yeah. People are excited about it. Seems very upsetting.

Box office? 53 million. I have 72. Okay. That would be great. That would be an overperformance, but I think that would be great. Yeah. Barbarian's obviously overperformed relative to his expectations.

I think they're attempting to apply the long legs thing here of mystery and an intrigue around the reveals in the movie. Could work, we'll see. Metacritic score for Zach Craigers next feature film? 76. 75, very close. Nobody 2, a sequel to the Bob Odenkirk's

surprise action movie, which actually did not do as well as I thought it did the first time around and I'm a little surprised by this Sequel it's coming out on August 15th box office I Have something written down here that seems really far too high so I have 418. Yeah, I do exactly the number one for the year 18 million I have 33. Okay. We'll see. Metacritic? 58. 56.

Okay. This is a fascinating exercise. Three last films. One that was just dated yesterday, Honey Don't. Yeah. This is the second solo directorial effort from Ethan Cohen, but is again, co-written with Trisha Cook, his wife? Yes. Ex-wife?

Are they still together? I... Who cares? It's between them. Doesn't matter. They made a movie called Drive Away Dolls last year that we saw together because you crashed my Valentine's Day date with my wife.

And... I liked it okay. You liked it a little less than me. Yeah, but it was amused. It was fun. This is a reunion with Margaret Qualley for this filmmaker. Yeah. Box office?

Nine million. Ten million. Very close. Metacritic? Fifty-six. Mm, 72. Oh, okay. Caught stealing. Now, I missed this trailer.

This is the new Darren Aronofsky movie, starring Austin Butler, that was described to me as a post-Pulp Fiction style knockoff in not kind terms to the person who saw it. August 29th, it's released. One of the last movies of the summer. I'll be in Telluride. I don't know when I'm going to see this movie. Box Office.

22 million? I have 27, good guess. Metacritic? 61. I have 58. The last movie of the summer? The Roses. J. Roach remaking War of the Roses

with Olivia Colman and Benedict Cumberbatch as a warring couple. Box office? Eight million? I have 13. Okay. Metacritic. 62?

67. Yeah. Very quickly, how many of the films that we talked about here, do you think will gross over 100 million? One, you mean domestic. Let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 12. So I have 11.

Yeah. But I have nothing over 378. And last year there were at least three movies, maybe four movies over 400. So that would be a big, a significant underperformance. Are we just, are we a little lost? Is Fantastic Four gonna be gigantic? Is Superman gonna be a $600 million movie?

So my guesses were a little bit bigger than yours overall. Cause you seem to be playing like the, you can't go over a game, which is not a part of this. Wasn't part of my strategy. It just turned out that way. Maybe I was just in a bad mood last night. I was just like, this looks like shit. I have one movie over 400 and it's just 410. And I have a couple at the high, high- What are we afraid of?

What are we so afraid of? What about taking a chance on a Deadpool and a Wolverine, you know? Well, there's not a Deadpool and a Wolverine on the thing. There's not. You know? There's not. Do you feel like you and I will be able to heal from this? I'm gonna do my best.

I had fun. You know, even as I was putting this list together, I think I was getting mad at you because I could just imagine, this is like a classic Sean trap of you put together this list where nobody is right, but you just bring a lot of confidence and so you're just obnoxious.

And you're just like, it's going to be like this. Plus the mansplaining emails was just... I again did not utter the phrase email. So you gotta circle that square at home. That is your prison that you live in with very short sentences. It's not like emailing with you is a treat. I am unshackled.

I am free. All right, Amanda, thank you. Let's bring in Adam Naiman to talk about the Shrouds and David Cronenberg. We've got a Canadian national treasure on to discuss a Canadian national treasure. It's Adam Naiman, the Mean Pod guy. How are you, Adam? I'm doing well. How are you, Adam? I'm doing well. How are you? I'm fantastic. Before we dig into Cronenberg and the Shrouds, I wanted to ask you how you're feeling about movies in 2025. It's been a constant point of discussion

on the show this year. It's been, from my perspective, a little bit of a down first three months. And then there's been some wind in our sails in April. How are you feeling as someone who spends their time watching new movies and writing about them? Pete Slauson Well, the studio movie I enjoyed most this year got a two and a half stars from You on Letterboxd. Which is Jom Kaletsera's wonderfully expressive The Woman in the Yard.

I like what you wrote about it where I think he said something like, I don't know what he's interested in beyond the camera. And I'm like, the camera, what else is there to be interested in? He's a filmmaker. Doesn't that maybe define us in some ways? Yeah. I don't think that's been a great start to the year. And there have been some films that I was looking forward to that other,

more normal people have enjoyed more than me, you know, like a black bag and Mickey 17 are both by filmmakers I admire. They both have things in them that I admire. I would never, you know, kick those movies out of bed for eating crackers or whatever, but they're not great. And some of the things I've watched have been just abject. Taking Leah, my eight year old, to the Minecraft movie was pretty fascinating because, um, you know, we're in Canada, we're, we're more polite, but it was still a pretty rowdy, raucous, uh,

abysmal screening. And it feels like this is just going to be delayed gratification because there's some filmmakers I know you and I both like very much, you know, an obscure American filmmaker named Paul Thomas Anderson, uh, and some other heavy-ish hitters who were just going to have to kind of wait for it. I mean, I hate that idea that good movies come at the end of the year and usually I like pointing to January and February and saying, look at all the stuff that slips through, but not a lot of stuff has slipped through.

So yeah, not the best movie year so far, but also not the best year in general, right? So I think our relationship to how movies are making us feel and what we're, what sort of, um, relief or, or gratification we're getting from them. It also feels a little bit out of whack. Been watching a lot of old movies, been enjoying those. Those are good. I like those as well. I'm trying to lean on those as well.

Um, I, I, I felt a lot better in April. There's been some films that I've really enjoyed. I'm, I'm assuming that the shrouds is the best thing that's come across your transom in 2025. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Well, I got out ahead of the pack. I saw the shrouds at TIFF last year and I'm like best film of 2025.

And, uh, you know, you try not to make it sound like a bit. I mean, first of all, you know, whenever we, we talk, it's an interesting venue to talk about films. There's sort of this intermingling of like, you know, whenever we talk, it's an interesting venue to talk about films. There's sort of this intermingling of like, you talk about the business and you talk critically and you sort of see what people are saying. So obviously when you have enthusiasms, you risk being seen kind of as a cheerleader or if somehow you don't like a movie, you become kind of a killjoy. You and I are both in different ways, I think, or similar ways. I think, oh, tourists, you know, we have artists who we care about and who mean something to us.

And not just as a Canadian, but certainly as someone of a certain age who came up watching movies at a certain time. You know, David Cronenberg means the world to me. And it's good that he also keeps making great movies because when filmmakers who mean the world to you stumble, you have to try and be honest. I would honestly say, I don't know if there's a movie of his that I feel the same way about as I do the shrouds. I think it's very actually great.

And I'm looking forward to talking about it, especially because one of the reasons it's great is because it's so close to kind of not being that good. If that makes sense. I know exactly what you mean. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, it's right there. And that's kind of like a thing where there's filmmakers who seem to be risking something like with every second of the movie going by, this is the same

way I feel about Shyamalan, you know, where you're just right there where you're like, am I watching something that's uncompromised and daring and, and naked and exposed, or it's like, is this just kind of stilted? And I mean, Cronenberg's a better filmmaker for me than Shyamalan, but they both have that quality of, you have got to be on that wavelength. And that wavelength's an interesting place to be. I think there is a particular,

I guess the word I'll use is awkward. There's an awkwardness at times to the execution of the plotting of both Shyamalan and Cronenberg films that if you are uncomfortable with the tone that he pursues and explaining what the story is, it's gonna be hard to get on board. I would say the Shrouds is maybe the most specific example

of this that I've encountered in one of his movies in a while. And I also loved it. I also saw it last fall. I had a chance to revisit it last night. It's a movie about a 50-year-old man who's just lost his wife, who is formerly a maker of industrial videos. We can talk about what that means, actually,

and how it relates to Cronenberg. Vincent Cassel plays this man, Karsh. He's very clearly a stand-in for a Cronenberg-esque figure. He has quite literally Cronenberg's hairstyle in the film and hair coloring. And this kind of industrial video maker has transitioned to becoming kind of a tech magnet with an interest in graves and grave technology, and particularly this shroud technology that can cover the dead bodies of people who are buried and then use that shroud to continue to look at the

decomposing corpses and This obviously is like a heavily load-bearing metaphor Cronenberg has recently lost his wife about seven years ago and this is a film about processing some of that grief and also a film about the relationship to the body and lust and aging and all of these very heavy themes. But it is told in, I would describe as a bemused, almost arch tone, and with a heavy dose of eroticism mixed in. Not a lot of things you would imagine would be a man's grief film. And so the way that he shoots this experience through this story and these ideas, so fascinating to me. I found the movie very funny on second watch and I

know that all of his films are kind of crypto comedies in their way, but this one in particular and maybe it's because of that tone that you're talking about that, can you get on board with this style that he goes for? I laughed a lot in a movie that I don't know if it started out as a point of humor for him, but were you on that wavelength too? Yeah, he's always funny. There's a great anecdote from Cannes in 2005 when History of Violence played there. History of Violence being one of the Cronenbergs that maybe, you know,

this listenership maybe is familiar with it's not for nothing is most American movie, even though it's shot in Canada, it's sort of the one movie that tackles, you know, America as subject for a filmmaker who's pretty local. And that's when Ravigo Mortensen is this small town, you know, a diner owner who turns out to be this virtuous with violence, absolutely fucking kicks the shit out of these bad guys becomes a media figure and then people are like, why are you so good at this? And it's like, well, maybe I had a past life.

Anyway, when that film played at Ken, a lot of people wrote about that screening, people were laughing. And this European critic yelled in the middle of the Palais, he was like, can't you critics shut up and take this seriously? And I think word of that anecdote got back to Cronenberg. Certainly journalists wrote about it. I think Cronenberg's response was like, well, but it's funny. I mean, it's both, you know, it plays both ways. And that's not a cop out where you sort of go, well, I guess if you find it funny, it's funny. It's that there's something absurd. And as you, I love the word you used, absurd and bemused.

That's just built into this material. I mean, the first scene of this film is a callback to the fly, which is also a first date between an adventurer and an interested party, except this first date doesn't go as well because Vincent Cassell is like, yeah, you know, I'm grieving my wife and I have all this money and I own this restaurant here in Toronto and she's like, that's all very attractive. And he's like, I also own the cemetery where my wife is buried. She's like, that's nuts. He's like, Hey, you want to go like watch a video feed of her, you's all very attractive. And he's like, I also own the cemetery where my wife is buried. She's like, that's nuts.

He's like, Hey, you want to go like watch a video feed of her, you know, out back. And it's very funny premise. I mean, this is ridiculous. He's like poking you in the eye. She's getting really turned on. She's like, Oh, you own the restaurant. He's like, I own the whole thing. And you know, you've been made very rich.

She's like, yes, I have. And then he shows her this closed circuit. Ultra HD. I think it's a great joke that in the movie they're trying to upscale to 8K. You know, they're like trying to get it up there. And, uh, you know, he's just keeping tabs on his wife. And I mean, again, to, to, to, to invoke another great Canadian, you know, it's like a Nathan for you episode, you know, the plan, you know, have people comfort

in their grief by watching their, their loved ones' bodies decompose. But it is a great metaphor, but it's also not a metaphor because this is what life is now is screens. And trying to sublimate all of our fear and anxiety about the future or sadness about what we don't have, or if you not even have to make a big stretch, you know, our 401ks or our kids' Instagram,

you're just kind of on these screens as a way of not dealing with the physical. And Cronenberg is very interested in the physical. So no matter how much he watches his wife on this screen, his dentist is still telling him like, your teeth are rotting from grief, which is also funny. And so I think that dealing with how funny this all is and also how relatable it is, this is where the movie is sort of amazing because he makes, I'm not trying to be glib, but like, you know, he makes reality feel both more and less than. No filmmaker has ever made reality feel

both more and less than real at the same time. And some of that is just a really assured kind of filmmaking that is right on the edge of being, as you say, stilted. There's an interesting aspect of this story, which is that there is a plot that sort of matters. The set up is much more important to the plot, but the plot, you know, that this, this grave site with this new technology that we've just described is sort of

pillaged at a certain point and destroyed. And there becomes this quest to discover who is responsible for this act of vandalism and it's sort of a whodumit with a sort of meaningless pursuit of the truth and I love the meaninglessness of the plot in so many ways because it speaks to This paranoia that we have about all experiences that we have now that is informed, at least in part by this technology that you're talking about. Cronenberg, basically since the very beginning of his career, has had a keen eye towards, if not technophobia, like a real suspicion and anxiety about the way that technology has sort of like intercepted our humanity. And this movie feels like it is taking it to its logical conclusion of death. Like in the past, it has been about where it has taken us while we are still alive. And this is kind of the final act of how there is a dividing line between those

screens that you're talking about and these, you know, these like what is perceived to be like tracking devices early on in the film and this idea that you're being watched all the time. Well, yeah, cause there's the dual conspiracy narrative and Cronenberg at Cannes got a little snippy. I think he has the right because he's one of the greatest living filmmakers with critics who were like why is this about conspiracy? You know, these conspiracy plots are strange and Cronenberg and David was like, well, you know, conspiracy theories tend to occur to people when they're upset about things. And he's gesturing broadly here at every aspect of our current reality, you know,

without, without putting too fine a point on it. So not just the question of who vandalizes the graves, but the question of who seemingly has put tracking devices on his dead wife's body within the grave and whether these two things are connected, or if these strange growths, these post-mortem growths on her body that the camera picks up, are they connected to the vandalism at all? And of course, it doesn't just perturb Karsh that this is happening. It's quite like a turn-on for him, especially because he's discussing these conspiracy theories with his dead wife's twin sister, also played by Diane Kruger. So immediately you're into this Cronenberg arena of doppelgangers and, you know, quite literally dead ringers and this kind of perverse sibling relationship.

But when you talk about those screens and the eroticism of it, I mean, if people have seen Videodrome and if you haven't seen Videodrome, I think it's on Criterion channel now, it's great. The first line of that movie is Civic TV, the one you take to bed with you. You know, I mean, there aren't cell phones yet, but that's a movie where James Woods kind of wakes up and there's a girl on a screen being like, by the way, I'm your sexy girl Friday. Here's all the stuff you need to do today.

Which happens again in the shrouds, except it's a personal assistant, an AI avatar who for maximum perversity looks exactly like his dead wife and his living sister-in-law and is played again by Diane Kruger, who's playing three parts the same way Miranda Richardson played three parts in Spider. I mean, this is like deep down the oturist rabbit hole. And I've interviewed Cronenberg enough times to know he does two things that are very funny. He says, it's not like I have a checklist where I put all this stuff in my movies. But he always says it's also not like I have a checklist.

So it's like the other item on the checklist is to remind people he doesn't have the checklist, you know, but he couldn't not make movies about these things, even if he tried. And I think the fact that he is so willing to put these things on display, these preoccupations and anxieties and fetishes and things he's fascinated with. I mean, it's what an artist does. And this is why he seems so hard for him to find financing or to get his movies

made, which I think is another subtext to this film, because without calling anyone out for not being an artist, I'm not going to be mean and say, here's all the people I think who are making movies in his shadow who aren't actually that good. Um, he is that good and he does not compromise or bend for anything sometimes to his industrial disadvantage, you know? Yeah, I, I totally agree. Of course, I think what he might have been accused of if he had not made that compelling pivot in the two thousands to a history of violence, Eastern promises,

a most dangerous method. Like, you know, he obviously he kind of transitioned tonally and Crimes of the Future was hailed as like kind of a return to body horror form, whatever that might mean for Cronenberg. I think now the film is almost resistant to some of those criticisms because it's just a perfect act of late style. You know, it's just sort of like, these are the things that interest him most. These are the ideas that he is the best at borrowing into

and helping us better understand. So the one thing I did wanna ask you about that I think is interesting about him and interesting about a lot of our shared preoccupations as filmmakers is this line between auto fiction and that checklist that you talk about and entertainment. And can you watch a movie like The Shrouds, as a lot of listeners of this show will,

but maybe have not seen Videodrome or maybe haven't seen even more specifically some of the brood or scanners or some of the more like totemic, if you're a cinephile, films that Cronenberg has made, but maybe not as mainstream movies. Can you enjoy this movie to its fullest extent if you don't have this reservoir of Cronenberg admiration or at least knowledge? I'm sure the film's a very intrepid distributor sideshow would like the answer to that to be of course and you know as people who like the film you do want to say yes but it's a smart question because it is so bound up in the mythos and not the idea of like a Cronenberg cinematic universe. He's not cute like that. It's not the Tarantino thing where

it's like, oh, this guy's this character's brother or something. But it really is this hall of, I don't want to say mirrors, but this hall of reflections and resonances and signifiers that do accrue the more you know about him. On the other hand, anybody who's lost anybody might watch this film. And depending on how certain moments or scenes hit them, uh, find it devastating. I have a friend who I saw this movie with at, at, at TIF. I won't say too much about her, but she's someone who had suffered a terrible loss and she couldn't make it through the first 10 or 15 minutes of the movie. And that's even with the rhinos and the archness and the strangeness,

because I think that when what this movie is saying about the finality of that loss and that the only way to hold on to someone after they're gone is to what? Keep tabs on their corpse, the futility of that and the comfort of that, especially when you think about people corpse, you know, the futility of that and the comfort of that, especially when you think about people looking through photo albums or looking through Instagram, you know, memorials or whatever else. If it hits you that way, I don't think it matters if you've seen a Cronenberg movie or not. I don't think it matters if you like him or not.

The older he's getting, the closer and closer he gets to the universal. And in some ways, like there is a lot of metaphor in this movie, but it's not even like the fly where you have to do the undergrad thing of being like, he's turning into a fly. So that's about cancer, which it was. Right. In this movie, you're just like, Sky lost his wife and he's dreaming about her and he can't get rid

of her because she's just in his face all the time. She's in the grave and he can see her. She's on his screens because that's his weird virtual assistant and his ex and his, his, his sister-in-law is there and like, what's he going to do? So I do think people can watch this movie and appreciate it.

On the other hand, it's interesting to me what you're saying about, uh, you know, late style and whatever else, where I think for people who need a certain amount of continuity or plausibility or fluidity to storytelling. It's a bit of a challenge, but so too is it in a lot of these late filmmakers, like Abel Ferrara or, you know, De Palma's Domino, which are movies that they're pretty close to seeming terrible, you know? And maybe people kind of have to train, not train themselves or be trained, but

they kind of have to accept that this is a very different experience then. And I'm not trying to like, I keep resisting naming younger filmmakers because I'm not trying to be mean, but there are filmmakers who are definitely influenced by Cronenberg and I think they, in a way, dilute him or distill him or take the surfaces of what he's doing without the actual content. For instance, I don't really hate the substance or anything, but people comparing that movie to Cronenberg is the most superficial thing in the world. But also, yeah, maybe an easier watch for a certain generation of cinephile now than

like late-style Cronenberg. Yeah. I want to come back to that. I think it's notable to me that really since the end of the, when he made Existence, he really had not made what you could define as a classical Cronenberg movie. The films that he made since then are Spider, which is one of the first movies I ever reviewed for my college newspaper, which I absolutely loved. A History of Violence, Eastern Promises, A Dangerous Method, Cosmopolis, Maps to the

Stars, which I think is now wildly underrated and is such a similarly so hilarious and dark film. And then Crimes of the Future and the Shrouds is this return to form that I mentioned and he's in his 70s now and I wonder if there is a very purposeful, intentional kind of reclamation of his throne, for lack of a better phrase. And so the substance was this, I think, interesting follow-up to Julia Ducarno's celebration over the previous five years with Raw and Tatan, and she has a new film, It Can't Actually, coming this year, Alpha.

And her being kind of hailed as a successor, I know there's a very strong line of criticism of the substance and that its connectivity to Cronenberg is maybe only in the kind of like physical manifestation of the idea and that everything else is like there's something much more manic I would say about the substance that doesn't really exist in any Cronenberg movie. But I do find it fascinating that most of the quote-unquote practitioners are the people who say they're most inspired by him are women. And a lot of his successors, for lack of a better phrase, are not men.

They're not, you know, a lot of dudes went on to make horror movies who really like Cronenberg, but they don't really do these existential examinations of our relationship to the body and the outside world's technology in the same way that these women do? And I'm curious how you feel about that setting aside, even whether you like DuCourneau or Farzah's movies. I think Titane comes by its Cronenberg shout outs honestly. And it's a movie that, you know, we all have movies where we kind of react one way and then with time, that's actually a film that I have, I have a little more time for than when it first came out. I think when that came out and won it can, I was frustrated that,

you know, when Claire Denis brought trouble every day to Cannes in 2001, they were like, get out of here. And when Cronenberg brought crash to Cannes, they're like, we have to make up an award for you because we hate this so much. And then she wins the Palm door. And instead of feeling like this is about laying the groundwork, you kind of feel like this is like carpet bagging, you know, it's like these Johnny come lathees get, you know, praise for the things that the older guard did. And I'm never going to be okay with the fact that the John Carpenters and Cronenbergs and Verhoevens and Breatz of the world have, I don't think reinvented themselves as art filmmakers because they've always been artists, but like that's the distribution sphere that they have to kind of enter into and the eight 24s and neons of the world.

I mean, they've dipped their, they did a little bit in crimes of the future. I thought was quite mishandled as a piece of distribution because they tried to sell it like a William Castle movie. They're like, you'll, you'll throw up. And it's like, that's not the movie. I think the shrouds being marketed very well, but I love your point about a lot of his inheritors being a female filmmakers filmmakers or I would add to that queer filmmakers because Cronenberg has never cast particularly macho shadow. Just by virtue of being a filmmaker

who's about sex and sexuality, he doesn't fit the macho horror template because he's not afraid of sex. He's not a filmmaker who's like the second someone has to have sex in his movies, they have to die. He's not a slasher filmmaker. And I think he's also hard to put in a political box because if you look at the writing on his movies early in his career in Canada, people kind of couldn't decide if the problem was that he was an anarchist or that he was a kind of staunch conservative. I mean, I don't know how deep a dive we're going to do into like Cronenberg lore, but listeners should know that controversy with him didn't get invented with Crash. I mean, I don't know how deep a dive we're going to do into like Cronenberg lore, but listeners should know that controversy with him didn't get invented with crash.

I mean, this is a guy who was debated in the halls of Canadian parliament for spending taxpayer money. We have a government filmmaking system here in Canada. And what pissed them off the most in the seventies was that his movies made money. You know, he, he actually repaid his government loans because he found stuff that people wanted to see. There was a critic named Robert Fulford who wrote under a pseudonym, Marshall Delaney, in Saturday Night, which is the big Canadian cultural magazine at the time.

He's basically like, this is pornography and the government shouldn't subsidize it. Cronenberg got evicted from his apartment. His landlady thought that he was a pornographer, that they came to his house looking for, you know, pornographic film materials. And he had an amazing line, David, he wrote in the Globe and Mail at the time. He said, I told the guy he could come in and look around. He wouldn't know what he's looking for. Which is his reaction to censors in general. Not by which he means I have the stuff hidden really well, but that people

who want to censor art are idiots. And I think one of the most endearing things about him is how he's carried that through line about censorship and liberty and the, the, the need to transgress in art, he has never backed down from it an inch and I find it deeply, deeply moving. I think he's also a bit of a, a jester, a bit of a Cheshire cat with some of those things. Like one of the reasons why is because he cast Marilyn Chambers in one of his first films, which is a sort of like dare.

It's a sort of challenge in Rabid to say, is this pornography? You know, and I think that obviously like an unsophisticated critic or a conservative leaning critic would willingly just take the bait and pick the fight and happily pick the fight to draw attention to oneself or whatever, or to stand up for their supposed morals. But I think his willingness to stick with it. One of the things that moves me about the shrouds that I've heard him talk about that I really like is I've lost people in my life, but I've not lost a partner or a spouse. And he said, the one thing with a partner and a spouse is that you build a relationship, not just to the person and their soul and the way that you love them, but a physical relationship to their body, that you are connected to their body.

And you've had, you know, he had 40 years with his wife's body. And so the whole movie is really premised upon this idea of his wife losing aspects of her body in real time while she's alive and then ultimately dying and him quite literally walking through the psychological phases of physical loss and not just emotional sentimental loss or these ideas of things we talk about when someone you know quote-unquote passes on like this is a physical confrontation with losing something that you're used to touching every day. And I've never really seen that in a film before. I thought that was so sophisticated. No, it is sophisticated. The idea that a person becomes like a phantom limb to you, you know,

and it's sophisticated and it's mature. And it's the sort of thing that I'm not saying young people can't make sophisticated movies about loss and aging. I mean, they can, and not every old filmmaker is a sage, you know, but there is a lived in quality to this movie. That I think is a little bit at odds with, let's say this kind of grand eloquent formalism and a lot of the young genre and genre adjacent filmmakers where it really is about creating a mood and creating a composition and how cool you can make things look and leaning on old myths or old sort of genre, you know, on old genre tropes

and sort of showing mastery and control. Kronenberg shows control in a different way, which is he makes it as spare and lean and down to the bone as possible. And that's where he hangs this stuff that I don't think is really, you know, conducive to screen grab culture or one perfect shot culture, but that, you know, that, that, that drills down even deeper, you know? And one thing that I would say about him, I mean, you try not to use too much hyperbole. I don't know how you'd feel about this. Cause when I go through it in my head, I'm hard pressed.

I cannot think of a better director of actors in a way. You know, I'm talking, James Woods in Videodrome, Jeff Goldblum in The Fly, Peter Weller in Naked Lunch, Vigo in everything, you know, and even Vincent Cassell and no shade on Vincent Cassell, but like Vincent Cassell is not typically thought of, I think, as a particularly resourceful or soulful actor. Soulful is the word I was, he's not very soulful.

No, but he's brilliant in this. He is. You know, and not just as an impersonation of Cronenberg, but like getting inside this weird mix of like arrogance and superiority and also like deep vulnerability and curiosity. You know, actors trust him implicitly. I've interviewed Vigo a couple of times about this and he says that working with Cronenberg is like nothing else in terms of the,

in terms of the level of trust that he kind of cultivates and that he gets. If I were to judge Mortenson on the three or four movies he's made with Cronenberg, he's one of the greatest actors I've ever seen. And I'm not saying that makes him bad and other things. I'm just like, man, he works with some actors and Cassell is another one. Cause Cassell is great in Eastern promises and in a, in dangerous method. And I think that there's no chance in hell of Cassell getting an Oscar nomination for this movie.

I mean, we know it's not going to happen, but to me, it's one of the most interesting performances I've seen in a me, it's one of the most interesting performances I've seen in a while, and also one of the best costume designs I've seen in a while, because this movie is partially financed by Saint Laurent. And Vincent Cassel was a drip god in the shrouds. My god. Those clothes are incredible. I don't usually associate Cronenberg with being one of the most stylish men in the universe.

That is an interesting elevation of the character. Sometimes we see ourselves slightly more beautiful than we actually are. Uh, you know, he's always, he's always cleaned up, cleaned up okay. You know, he's used to being on red carpets, right? That's true. Um, can I ask you? Yeah, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Well, one last thing sort of on like the legacy tip that is interesting to me, because I've talked to his son a couple of times and I like, I like Brandon's movies too. And I think that they're obviously wildly informed by his father, but they're not replications. And one thing that he shares that I think some of those female filmmakers were talking about share is this kind of lean in the direction of the psychotronic, you know, that there's

something like hallucinogenic almost when you're watching those movies, which I think, I guess you could say when you're watching the movies, which I think I guess you could say When you're watching the sort of handgun sequence in Videodrome, for example, that there it does feel like you're in a like a dream state But it doesn't have that convulsive aggressive quality that I think so many of the filmmakers that are carrying his torch carry on and I'm kind Of wondering like why that is is that a product of these times and the fact that in order to make these ideas make sense Everything has to feel more crazy and a little bit less sustained. What do you think about that? Uh, it's a great question because he has a site, David has a psychotronic impulse.

It's in Videodrome. It's in naked lunch. Although a naked lunch, he does it entirely through analog means because he makes it a period piece, right? So you have like people ripping outer bodies away and head trips and hallucinations, but they're rendered, you know, quite literally. Or a film like Existence, you know, as you say, has virtual reality, but it's always rooted in something very physical, like, you know, the hand gun or the body

ports. My example for this would be one of his underrated films. I mean, if you start calling everyone's films underrated, you sound like a shill, but a lot of them are underrated, including by me. I should say on the record, I wrote at the time, I don't like Existence, I don't think Cosmopolitan is very good, I don't think Maps to the Stars is good. And then I always feel stupid, because six months later I'm like,

no, these movies have expanded like a bullet in my brain. You know, those bullet, what are the Full Metal Jacket bullets that get bigger? Can I just say, just because I just that one of this guy's movies, to me, it's the same thing with Wes Anderson, which Wes Anderson and David Cronenberg could not be more different. But every time I watch a Wes Anderson movie a second time, I have my mind expanded by the movie and Cronenberg.

Oh, you just saw, you just saw one of this guy's movies. Could it have been a movie about a scheme? It could be a movie about a scheme. Yeah. And so when I saw that scheme, I was like, I need to see this again soon so that I can expand my understanding of the movie. But in Cosmopolis, there's a scene where Robert Pattinson, great in Cosmopolis, by the way, Cronenberg got to him first. That was the first sign that we were excited about Robert Pattinson. Yes, exactly.

Except for the movie where at the end Robert Pattinson dies in 9-11, I guess that was before Cosmopolis. Oh yeah, that was my number one movie of that year, whatever it's called. The number one film. Yeah. My God. Um, but there's a scene in Cosmopolis where Robert Pattinson goes to see Sarah Gadden at a play and

they're outside the theater and the poster just says stage play, but it's the same way that in Existence, in the Existence world, I think Vince, Willem De Fowler said a filling station. It just says like gas station. And that's him being funny. It's sort of him saying, you know, rather than try and, uh, heighten this level of, um, of, of saying, of Simulacra trying, trying, trying, trying to really kind of,

you know, fill the screen with surreal details. It's like, let's just strip away. Do you remember Willem Dafoe's character's name from existence? Is it gas? It's gas. Yeah, it's gas. Yeah. It runs a gas station.

So, I mean, again, it's a form of, it's a form of surreality, right? And I do think that it, it shows a certain amount of confidence. And I also think that he's also a real master of a little goes a long way. That's why the fly is kind of deceptive. On the one hand, I love the fly. And if I had to pick a best Cronenberg, it's right there for me with crash and the shrouds, but that's the movie. I think that gave people a bit of a miss miscalibrated idea of him.

Cause it really is kind of a gore fest and it's such a great mid eighties gore fest that you could be like, Oh, David Cronenberg, he's that guy. You know, he's the guy with turned the baboon inside out and Jeff Goldblum, you know, vomits on John gets his legs and then they melt. And there's a little bit of that in the dead zone too, which has a couple moments of just show stopping gore. Like when the deputy, you know, cuts his mouth open with the scissors and stuff. But elsewhere he's pretty judicious.

Like I always think of a Dead Ringers as a movie that's two hours with no gore. And then there's the one dream scene in the middle where John B. Abujal bites the two Jeremy Irons apart, that growth. And you know, a little goes a long way. It does. Um, if you had to recommend people, essentially a starter pack for Cronenberg. Yeah. It's not a ranking, but for people who don't know his work.

And I think this is going to be- You've never ranked movies on this podcast. I've never, I wouldn't, I would never because art is not a subjective or objective practice. It's an emotional practice. And so- No numbers. There's no hierarchy, obviously. No one should win awards and, um, they won an emotional practice. And so there's no numbers, there's no hierarchy. Obviously no one should win awards and they won't win awards starter pack starter

pack. This is a starter pack in case you are going to begin watching Cronenberg. If you just listen to us talk for 40 minutes about the shrouds and you've never seen a Cronenberg movie, I'd like to say thank you. Um, yeah, but what, where, where should they start? Um, I think you and I would, would both say the brood is pretty important. Yeah. But where should they start? I think you and I would both say the brood is pretty important. Yes. What might be my favorite? Yeah. It's a bit of a late start because there are movies before it.

And I think the lore, the low budget Canadian tax shelter lore of stuff like Rabbit and Shivers is essential. I mean, I think they're all essential, but I don't suggest people start with like, you know, the original crimes of the future or stereo, cause that's some tough going. Those are hard sets. Hard sets. You know, the, the brood, which is his version, he said of Kramer versus Kramer, the movie that came after his divorce, a movie about a custody battle and the

way that the, the rage within this family becomes internalized and then externalized. I won't spoil it, but suffice it to say it's an evil kid movie, sort of. Really a fun comparison to something like Rosemary's Baby or The Exorcist at that time, because the horror is totally biological and scientific. It's not supernatural. And I think the part of the substance that is Cronenberg-y is he does love scenes where people are sitting in an audience and something disgusting happens, like in Brood or in Scanners. I mean, that's very Cronenberg-y at the end of

the substance, you know, where it's like, we all came to see this thing. I hope nothing bad happens. That's a great observation. Explodes. I think the Brood is essential. I think Videodrome is essential as a movie about the internet before the internet was invented. is essential as a movie about the internet

before the internet was invented. And as an absolute masterpiece of Toronto pettiness because, uh, Cronenberg had a grudge with Moses Neimer, who was the creator of City TV, a forerunner to MTV, a kind of hip urban TV station. Neimer had sort of big time Cronenberg at some party in LA. So in the civic TV scene, civic TV being a parody of city TV, when James Woods kills a bunch of people, at one point you hear me like, Hey, Moses. And the guy's head gets blown off.

So, you know, we stan a petty, a petty Toronto king, um, yeah, rude video drone. Uh, I love the fly. I defy anybody to not be moved by that film and by Goldblum's performance. You know, that's the urge of Goldblum performance. We don't have Jurassic park, Jeff Goldblum without Cronenberg, Jeff Goldblum, and that's just a fact, you know, and then, I don't know, I don't want to skip anything, but we're, we're trying to be precise here. Yeah.

Give me two more. Crash is, crash is incredible. Um, I saw that movie during COVID at a drive-in, bad movie to watch at a drive-in, but also perfect movie to watch at a drive-in. Very amusing programming during COVID. Yeah. Yeah. It was great COVID, uh, it was programming and actually there was like a club that

was open, an open air club down the streets. You could hear weekend songs drifting over. And I was like, two great Canadian Toronto pain fetishists, David Cronenberg and Abel, you know, together at last. And then I kind of cited the Vigo films as all good. I mean, I just, I love a history of island, you know, I really do. And that was the, that was the film. I think that, um, convinced people, you know, we like using this terminology of, you know, we're back, but he was back with that cause spider did not exactly set the world on fire commercially history of all it's actually got some Oscar nominations.

It got the wrong ones. It was dominated for its script, which he mostly rewrote I've heard. And, uh, for Will and William, instead of, you know, Maria Bello or, or, um, Mortenson who are both incredible. But yeah, what a, what a, what a film. Yeah. That William Hurt nomination is fascinating. I do love those scenes between the two of them, but that's

a really weird nomination. It's a really weird nomination and he's funny, but the performance is only funny and counterpoint to what Vigo's doing. Fans of like post Tarantino, like hitman slapstick, history of violence has some of that. It has maybe the funniest dropped gun I've ever seen. And actually that's cute credit to William Hurt. His reaction to this dropped gun is just, uh, and that movie is a little way typical for Cronenberg too, which is why he brings it back to him.

The same way that Eastern promises, I don't think started as a very Cronenbergian project, but by the time Vigo's, you know, being stabbed in the Turkish bath naked and, you know, ripping people's eye sockets out and stuff, it's like, yeah, he, he brought it back to him. What about you? I think you hit on the five classics. I, um, I have been meaning to return to The Dead Zone, which is a movie that is probably the first

of his movies that I saw and probably maybe didn't fully understand as a very young person seeing it. I've seen it a few times since then, but has left an impression on me and feels in some ways like an outlier in his movies because it's such a studio film and it's such a, you know, it's an adaptation, it's not an original. And, but I really quite like it. And I think that idea of a great director of actors

that you identified is particularly true with Walken in that movie, who never lets like the Walken-ness overwhelm the character, which can sometimes happen in his movies, as you know. And so I really love that. You know, Dead Ringers has never been a favorite of mine. I feel like always a better idea than a film in some ways, but I'm gonna give that one another spin too.

And the other one that's I think been somewhat reclaimed in recent years is Butterfly, which I think was somewhat similarly like ignored slash overlooked because it didn't have some of his hallmarks as Spider. But I think the five that you named are rock solid. I think Scanners has like a punk rock fandom, you know, because it's got, it's the one movie that has been sort of memed, you know, it has the exploding head that you cited and the Michael Ironside energy is just off the charts

in that movie, but I like the five that you cited and the Michael Ironside energy is just off the charts in that movie. But I like the five that you chose. One more plug. A 10 to viewers may have noticed over my shoulder this large purple book that's been sitting here the entire time. It's a new book by Violet Luca on David Cronenberg called David Cronenberg Clinical Trials. It's really good and it's just out. I know that they're doing some screening events with it here or there. So that is why it is deftly, deftly over my shoulder. Very cool. I will, uh, I will check that out.

I did not know that that, that, that was released. Um, Adam, always a joy. So nice to see you. Where, where, what are you writing on? Where can we see you? Writing on the shrouds elsewhere. Okay. Because I covered it for the ringer in our, in the TIF dispatch, but it'll,

spoiler, it will probably end up on year end 10 best list. And then, uh, you know, I just, uh, I just exist here in Toronto. You know, you can always read me on, on, on, on the site and always happy to, to, to, to come on here to talk about great, great filmmakers with you. This is the first time since the Brutalist, right? It is. Yeah. It is.

And how did you find everything shook out with the Brutalist? Did it work out? With the movie? Yeah. Well, you know, I got, I got my profit participation. It was fine. Yeah. The Brutalist.

It, I do think that, you know, Brady Courbet is now in this category of like, what, what will he do next? You know, he has the center of gravity of what is the next. I made a similar observation that the pursuit of cult of personality was achieved. Here, here's a, here's a, here's a live reaction from you on air. Do you like the little trailer tidbits for the Zack Krieger surveillance horror movie thing? Do you see in these?

Uh, for weapons? I, unfortunately, I already saw, well, fortunately for me, I already saw the full trailer when I was at Cinemacon in Vegas, so I already know what's, what, what it's going to look like, but I suspect that they're going to, they're going to play the long legs marketing game with this movie, cause there's a couple of images that are in the trailer that are fucked up and in the way that I think you and I tend to enjoy.

So hopefully it works out. It terrifies me to think that someone's finally made a movie about children running around my house at night. This is basically what I live with anyway. Like my younger one got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and I was like, don't you realize that this is the fear that's

capturing America this summer, what you're doing right now? Maybe a secret sequel to the brood, you know, it's, it's in play. And then she, and then she's like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going back to bed. That, um, cool. Um, this was, it was great, great, great to talk with the shrouds, which is, which is opening and I hope people, I hope people see it. I hope so too.

Good to see you, Adam. Yeah, you too. Thank you to Adam. Okay. Now let's go to my conversation with the great David Cronenberg. It's an honor to have David Cronenberg here in studio on the show. David, we spoke for Crimes of the Future. And I think I asked you if that would be your last film during that conversation.

And I think you were a little circumspect. You said you had ideas. Was there ever a time when you would have been comfortable with that being your last film? Oh, I really thought Cosmopolis would be my last film. And then I thought Maps to the Stars would be my last film. And when my wife died in 2017, I really thought that that might be the end of it, just because of the emotional

despair and this change, shift emotionally in my life and so on. So I thought, I didn't think that I would stop being creative because I had written a novel and I thought, well, I'll probably write another novel, but I don't know if I could go through the very complex process of filmmaking, which involves a lot of other people and financing and so on. So in each case, but I'm not, it's not like Stephen Soderbergh, who I think has ended his filmmaking career five or six times and still is making films, thankfully. On the other hand, there's Manuel de Oliveira, who's a Portuguese filmmaker, and he was still directing

when he was 103. And I'm thinking, yeah, okay, maybe his films were a little static at that point, but he was still making them, you know. So I'm thinking, it's just, you just don't know. You just don't know. I mean, filmmaking is changing a lot because of the combination of COVID and Netflix, I think, has really completely altered the cinema landscape. So it's a strange time for movies right now, strange time. I do want to ask you about Netflix, because I know they were potentially a part of this story, but I'm curious, you know, because the film is so personal,

I think I've heard you say that it's your most personal movie. Was there any part of you that was even having made 20 plus films nervous during this process of trying the process? No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, it's interesting though, you know, I'm 82 now. From 2017 to whatever, five years I hadn't made a film. I was taking care of my wife and this and that.

So I was wondering whether I would have the focus and the stamina because it's a very physical act, filmmaking, for a director. You need a lot of intensity and you need a lot of stamina. So I wondered about that. Would I have it? Would I not? Would it change? Would I be halfway through the movie and

directing the movie and say, you know, I can't do it anymore? You know, all of those things are possible. But I found that it was, you know, the classic like riding a bicycle kind of thing. I could still do it. So I feel, yeah, I could keep going until I mean, you know, you think of John Huston directing a quite good movie, actually was called The Dead, while he was in a wheelchair with oxygen mask on his face. So it's like, okay, these are kind of strange models to have, but I guess I have them. All the way at the end of the process, you know, I know you've said that making the film isn't necessarily cathartic, that it's energizing to be making art. But what about when the movie comes out and it's received?

Does it make you feel better or worse about the endeavor, the reception, the box office, all of those things? It's a curious thing. You're interested in the audience reaction, of course, because you've made it for an audience. And then, of course, if you get a bad review, you get defensive. And then if you get a good review that's very sensitive, it's very, it's terrific. Will you still read them? Will you look at the reviews?

Up to a point. And then at a certain point, and it's quite a delicious point, really, you say, actually, I don't care what you think. I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm finished with it. And you'll find that a lot of filmmakers don't look at their old movies. I mean, I barely remember Crimes of the Future, which was my last movie before The Shrouds. I don't remember the movie. I don't remember the responses, more or less,

you know. And you want that because you want to go forward. You don't want to keep living in the past, which is why I'm usually reluctant to do, let's say, interviews that want to go forward, you know, you don't want to keep living in the past, which is why I'm usually reluctant to do, let's say, interviews that want to talk about my career and my life's work. And it's boring to me, I just don't really want to do it. I've been telling the same stories that I told 50 years ago when I was actually making those movies. So talking about the shrouds is exciting still to me. And I do, it's actually quite possible to discover new things about the movie while you're talking about it. And that's,

you live for those moments, you know, because you're not just saying the same thing over and over again, you are discovering some interesting things. Well, let me ask you one thing about it and its conception. I found this to be possibly your funniest movie as well, despite the subject matter. No, I think all my movies are really quite hilarious. They are all quite funny, but I thought this one was particularly... At least I thought it quite bemused by its own absurdity, which I really enjoyed. Yeah. I mean, it does have a particular flavor of comedy,

but I think some of the other ones are maybe more slapstick. Okay, that's true, that is true. Yeah, yeah, I think I don't know how you could live without a sense of humor about yourself and about the absurdity of life and so on. I really do think we have evolved a sense of humor as a sort of survival strategy really because our minds are so active and so anticipatory

and so sometimes so deadly. How can you survive without a sense of humor? You have to have one. And so in that sense, the movies that I make are full reflection of many aspects of myself and my life. And therefore, they have to have humor in them. Adam Fossum Do you find that when you're conceiving a story, you're thinking hard about tone? Because there's always a lot of sort of moving pieces and you're creating worlds often in your films. You're creating creating worlds often in your films, you're creating new technologies often in your films.

But are you thinking specifically about how that sense of humor will infiltrate or is it the sort of thing that just comes naturally? No, it just comes naturally. I really, I'm not really in control, you know? It's not like I have it planned carefully. Yeah, it's just instinctive and natural, really. The relationship to biotech in your films is obviously quite extensive.

This one feels like sort of the endpoint of that conversation in some ways, almost the literal endpoint of that conversation. But going back, many people are always pointing out to you your prescience for all of these issues in particular. But it seems like some of them are accidental and some of them are purposeful. In this film, despite the absurdity of the framework, do you feel like there is a world where we are going in a direction where observance of death is like possibly this literalized? Dr. Michael O'Brien It's, you know, I don't really think of art as prophecy, and I don't really think for

sure of me as a prophet either. It's just, I've noticed some reviews are talking about the deadly presence of, you know, disarming tech and identity and falseness and disinformation and stuff. And that I was making a statement about it. But actually, I was just, this is the way people live. And the number of times people are on their phone is just the way people are doing it these days. And the number of times people are on their laptops

and are making international phone calls on their phone without thinking twice about it. To me, I was just being observing the way things are. And if people are finding that to be sinister, so be it. Maybe for them it is. For me, it was just, as I say, observing. This lead character, Karsh, is a high-tech entrepreneur. He's very familiar with tech.

And in fact, that's his bailiwick. That's his creative outlet is tech. And so all of those things are just natural. And yes, he drives a Tesla, which has resonances now that it didn't have when I was shooting the movie, but I drive a Tesla. And I have to say that I have a very intimate personal relationship with my Tesla that has nothing to do with Elon Musk. So I'm not selling the Tesla if people want to egg it or, you know, break its windows,

okay, whatever. But it's just natural. And I felt that Karsh, as this tech guy, would of course he'd drive a Tesla because that actually is a groundbreaking vehicle, very important in the history of cars and electric vehicles and stuff. So he would of course want to experience that. There's this ongoing dialogue among movie fans that a lot of the great filmmakers who are getting older are not making nearly as many contemporary pieces because the inclusion of the cell phone is a difficult storytelling issue. But this film is, the cell phone is essential to the

story that you're telling. Absolutely. I mean, if you're watching, you know, streaming series, you know, half the time people are on the phone and that's accurate. That's the way people are now. And the way I found the way in this movie that the cell phone usage is, the way it's shot, the way it looks, feels the way that it would feel, as opposed to, I find in contemporary set stories, it doesn't quite capture the same addiction and the sort of extension of ourself that the phone often is. How did you think about how to frame a cell phone and how it related to Karsh's life?

Really very pragmatic, you know. I mean, I just felt when a character would be on the phone, they'll be on the phone. And I have to figure it out. Of course, in writing the screenplay, I wasn't thinking about how I'm going to cover it. Is it going to be a close-up? Is it going to be a medium shot? Are we going to do it live or are we going to use CG to put stuff on the phone? I don't do storyboards, so when I'm shooting it, it's just instinctive and very natural.

It wasn't really meant to be a... I had no agenda in terms of commenting on tech. These were characters who would be very comfortable with tech and they wouldn't think twice about it because it was their environment. And that's the way I approached it. Aaron Ross Powell One of the other things that it has a fascinating relationship to is the AI assistant in the film. And that is an extension of Diane Kruger's character.

Yeah. I was wondering what your relationship is to cell phones and AI assistance and the like. You already mentioned you drive a Tesla. Like, are these things a part of your life? Do you feel like you are addicted to your phone? Do you use these tools? Absolutely. I mean, if you lose your phone, you are really, you're dead. I mean, you don't exist anymore. And I often say I have outsourced my memory to my phone because often just like that guy who was in that film that was about that thing, let me just look it up.

And that's where we are. So I felt that the film was totally realistic in terms of tech. Even Gravetech, this thing that the lead character, Kars, played by Vincent Cassel, comes up with, is technically totally feasible now. I mean, if you, I liked it when I was doing, you know, talking to audiences and stuff, I would playfully say, I'm selling franchises for this cemetery. Maybe you could just have one grave in your backyard

to start with, but then you could expand, you know, so if you want a franchise, I'm willing to talk to you. It's totally possible. I mean, it's basically cameras in the grave with some lighting and you have an app that controls it and that's all. I mean, I am, for example, talking to you. I have hearing aids that are controlled by my phone through Bluetooth. I've had cataract eye surgery, so I'm looking at you through plastic lenses that replace my natural lenses.

So I'm totally bionic, you know. And I'm not the only one. It's amazing the number of people I get into discussions about hearing aids with. You'll be surprised. So all natural. And I think, yeah, I mean, my career as a filmmaker would have ended maybe five movies ago if it weren't for hearing aids. Because my hearing, you know, it's genetic. My mother was a musician with hearing aids. My uncle, her brother, was a violinist, also

hearing aids. You know, so I welcome that tech, I mean, of course. And I don't think twice about it. I mean, it's just natural. It's fascinating that your career and your family's careers, their life's work, you know, hearing is a necessity and that something is sort of taken away from you biologically and that we need to find something to help aid us when I feel like a lot of your films are sort of cautioning us against so many of these things. It's a fascinating contrast. Of course, conflict is the essence of drama, said George Bernard Shaw. So you don't want

a movie where everybody's happy about tech and just happy about with each other and happy about the world. That's a boring movie. So there has to be some conflict. There have to be some difficulties. And of course there can be. I mean, to be some conflict, there have to be some difficulties, and of course there can be. I mean, obviously, you know, your hearing aids can be hacked. That's an interesting thing, what's going to happen with that. And also, I have to remember, it's playful. I mean, for however serious movies are in terms of money and time and time pressures and stardom and casting and producing and releasing the films and publicity. Beneath it all, we are children playing.

We're putting on funny mustaches. We're in a sandbox. We're putting on mustaches. We're pretending that we're people that we aren't, doing funny voices. And the playfulness is important, you know, it's really the essence of that kind of creativity. Adamen You mentioned Vincent Cassel, the star of the movie who you'd worked with before. In my mind's eye, I don't think I would have thought of him for a movie about this kind of vulnerability in the face of grief.

That's not really his on-screen persona historically. So what made you think of him for a movie about this kind of vulnerability in the face of grief. That's not really his on-screen persona historically. So what made you think of him for this? It's hard. I thought of other actors, of course, and eventually, you know, talking to my French co-producer, and of course, I had worked with Vincent twice before. I just thought it would be interesting. I really like leading actors who are really more like character actors. They're not sort of smoothly, perfectly beautiful. Vincent has lots of rough edges and he normally plays criminal types and he speaks very quickly and curtly, a very street type character. And this is really a big challenge for him.

And it's interesting for me and interesting for him. I mean, this is the most dialogue he told me that he's ever spoken in one movie. Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating. And so, and of course, it's in English, which is not his first language. So it was interesting. And then the fact that he's French and I knew he would still have a bit of an accent, it's very much Toronto. I mean, there

was, I think a French critic was saying, you know, you say this is a Toronto movie, but you have a French actor, a German actress, an Australian actor. And I said, but that is Toronto. I mean, it's a very diverse city. And you hear all those voices and all those accents and so that really fits. Adamen Johnson One other thing that struck a chord with me in the film is this strain of conspiracy theorizing in the face of trauma and grief and sadness that often you sort of like go searching for answers where there are none.

I find most people who have maybe not experienced a loss, maybe don't necessarily, are not on the wavelength of this concept. But if you have, I found it to be really, really resonant. Maybe you could just talk about that. Oh, I'm glad. Because some critics have sort of felt that the movie gets derailed because it goes off into the conspiracy world. And I'm thinking, well, you know, in fact, in my experience at the age of 82, a

lot of people have died. And I find that it's, you know, the death of a loved one is meaningless. If you're an atheist like me, an existentialist, you have to accept the absurdity of human existence and you have to accept that death is in some way meaningless. But we, once again, in terms of evolution, I'm definitely a Darwinian, we have evolved to look for meaning everywhere and it's made us a very powerful and dangerous species. But, so, somebody dies and you say to each other, this is impossible. This person cannot be dead. This person cannot be gone. How is that possible?

And then you start to think, well, maybe it's not so random. Maybe the doctors weren't taking enough care, or maybe she was with the wrong doctors, and maybe the doctors had an agenda, maybe he or she should have been in another clinic, and maybe, and there's a guilt thing as well. It's sort of survivor guilt. Like maybe if I had paid more attention and we found some better place

for this treatment to happen, so it can very easily spin into quite elaborate conspiracy coming out of, as I say, guilt and confusion and the search for meaning. Adamen Johnson Another strand that I like that is related to that, especially in the third act of the film, is the way that that conspiracy and desire to kind of better understand the inexplicable is really interwoven with desire and sex. And, you know, I'm interested to hear you talk about that too, because the film is extremely frank, as frank as any of your other films about basically what we, when we lose something,

what we lose, but then also how we sort of replace that feeling. Yes, yes. Well, there's a, you know, in this case, Karsh has a very sexual affair with the sister of his dead wife. And you feel there that it is an attempt by both of them to kind of resurrect the sister in sort of the affair together, that it is another version of trying to deal with grief and to try to minimize the sense of desolation because of the loss. Adamus I know the film originally started out as a series and that ultimately didn't work out at Netflix. A series is very different from making a film.

Dr. Peter Hickman Yeah, I was quite interested, intrigued by the, you know, of course, it's a combination of COVID and Netflix, everybody suddenly staying home and watching streaming series. And I thought that this is, it's definitely cinema. It's a movie making, but it's a very different kind of movie making. It's not exactly TV as we used to know it. And I thought it would be pretty interesting to do. I mean, and since then, I've talked to Steve Zalien, who did a series called Ripley, which I thought was really be pretty interesting to do. I mean, and since then I've talked to Steve Zalien, who did a series called Ripley, which I thought was really quite a beautiful series.

Fantastic, yeah. And he wrote and directed all the episodes. So that's like making a 10 hour movie. That's, and also Alfonso Cuaron with this clamor, I talked, I asked him if he would ever do that again. He said, he wasn't sure because it's so all-consuming it maybe three or four years of your life doing that Was that your intention though with this or which I wasn't sure whether I would end up doing what has been done several times To direct maybe the first two episodes and then just oversee as an executive producer the the other episode

Mm-hmm, or whether I thought I really could write and direct all the episodes. I was interested to see how it would work out. And I got to write two episodes before Netflix decided that they didn't want to continue. But at that point, and I had made many notes about where the series could go. But I liked what I had written enough that I didn't want to just abandon it just because Netflix didn't want to go ahead with it. And so I thought, you know, it could be a movie. It could definitely be a movie instead.

Adam Lashford On the trail for this film, you've been talking a little bit about how, you know, your relationship to celluloid has changed, your relationship to the movie going experience has changed, which is amongst the young cinephiles, very out of fashion, you know, I think you're kind of rejecting like a new young orthodoxy around movie fans. Yes, there is that. But I mean, this is not totally new because of course Spielberg was always insistent on trying to shoot everything on film and you now find some young filmmakers like Brady Corbett, I was talking about.

He not only is doing film, but he's resurrected VistaVision and VistaVision lenses. Of course, this is a very old widescreen format. I find it kind of sweet. They have this nostalgia, you know, but film is horrible to work with. I would never go back to working with film. We have affection and nostalgia for the actual material of film because of the great movies that have been shot on film. But honestly, it's time to move on, I say to the young filmmakers, you know, it's so much more flexible, you have so much more control. And I was just talking to my director of photography who shot my last two movies, Doug Koh, and

he said that there was a demonstration recently for cinematographers and assistant cameramen and stuff, where they compared 35 millimeter Kodak film stock, which was one of the classics, and the latest version of digital. And they were identical, he said. They could not tell. There was all kinds of lighting situations, nighttime, daytime, interiors, exteriors. And you can absolutely, if you want the look of film, you can absolutely have it. If you want grain, you can have Kodak grain or Fujifilm grain, whatever you want. So there's really, even aesthetically, there is no reason to shoot on film.

It's so difficult now and there's so few labs that really process film anymore. So it's an added expense. It's more expensive, more awkward, more clumsy. I couldn't wait to get rid of film, honestly. What about the idea of movie going? I know you've said that sometimes going to the movies is just not as fun as it used to be because it's not as peaceful as maybe it used to be. Do you feel like there's something long-term lost if people get out of that habit and get only into the habit of the Netflix approach? Well, it's, you know, I remember being at the Venice Film Festival on a panel with Spike

Lee and he was talking about like the cathedral of cinema and the way the community of the film thing is. And I said, you know, Spike, I'm watching Lawrence of Arabia on my Apple watch and there are a thousand camels there and I can see every one of them. You know, of course I was exaggerating. But what I was saying is that, yeah, there are some moments in my past where there was that communal feeling in a theater, a comedy, an action thing. But I think it's overblown. I think it's nostalgia has made it be more

a complete experience than perhaps it normally was. So I don't really, it's an experience that's different, but I don't think it's a lesser experience to watch at home on your very good, high-quality TV set. And you can invite your friends over. I mean, a lot of kids watch together, and also it's not like there's no communal experience of film.

So I really, it's different. And I think there will be fewer and fewer cinemas and I think they'll be very specialized. And as it turns out, they end up usually showing very, very sort of middle of the road, Marvel movies and stuff like that, which is to me not very interesting as a filmmaker anyway. I wanted to ask you about your relationship with Howard Shore, who scored this new film and has scored almost all of your films. Yes. And you've been working together for almost 50 years.

That's frighteningly true. That's just an amazing career-long collaboration. And even in this film, the final kind of sonic musical cue just felt very classically Howard Shore, David Cronenberg to me, that sort of synth wave that you hear at the end of the film. Can you just talk about how you work together maybe and kind of if it has changed over time? Well, I was recently in London for about a week where a group called the London Soundtrack was doing an homage to Howard. And Howard was there and they were showing the films that he had scored. He and I have done 17

films together. We started out in Toronto together. He's a Toronto boy as well. And some moments they had the London Philharmonic actually there playing. This was music that he did for Lord of the Rings and won Oscars for. There were a chorus of 80 singers and the London Philharmonic doing music from Lord of the Rings through a huge audience. And it was really quite thrilling and exciting and it was great. And Howard and I did Q&As and stuff. And I did talk about, we did talk about that. Early on in our career, we thought about what does movie music do? Why is there music? Why couldn't there be no music?

And we felt that traditionally, the music just supports what's already there. You know, it's an action scene, so you have action music. It's a scary scene, so you have scary music. And it's almost like the failure of trust by the director and the producers that the scene is really working. You have to accentuate it with music. So Howard and I thought music could do something else. It could add an element to the scene

that was not just the same as what you're seeing visually. It could be almost like another character. It could add an emotional level that is not obvious. And I think you see that in the music that he did for the Shrouds, because Karsh is, he's suffering, but he's very sort of confident, he's very cool, he's very restrained, and he's talking about grief, but he's not really expressing it, except for certain very specific

scenes in the movie. But the music tells you that underneath that is absolute desolation at the loss of his wife, that there's grief, there's agony, and it's the music that carries that. So, and that's, as I say, just an example of what we always try to do is that music as another character, in a way. It's really effective in this movie in particular. Kind of constantly had me asking, is what I'm watching really happening? And in which way is it supposed to be happening? So you guys have done great work together.

Should I ask you again if this will be your last film? I hope it's not going to be my last film. I am talking to the producer Robert Lantos, who we've worked together many times before, about doing a movie based on my one novel that I wrote called Consumed. And that's interesting because I wrote it 15 years ago, I guess, or maybe 10, 15 years ago. And for me to write a screenplay based on my own novel would be a novel experience, I must say,

because I've adapted many other novels like Cosmopolis, for example. But I have never done that to my own novel. So it'll be an adventure. The thing is these days, you don't know if you're gonna be able to raise the money. I mean, that's really more a question from the producer but If you're doing any film that is anywhere off the middle ground

You don't know if you're gonna get financing You don't know if it's gonna be able to be shown in theaters or will it be totally streaming instead It's it's strange somewhat perilous, but also interesting times, as they say, in the movie world right now. David, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing that they have seen. Have you seen anything good recently? Well, I saw a movie by a Danish filmmaker, I think his name is Magnus von Horn, called The Girl with the Needle. Yes, beautiful.

And that's a beautiful, very tough, very difficult movie. And I thought it was really quite beautiful, very special. The cinematography in that film is unbelievable. Fantastic. It's beautiful and horrifying at the same time. That's a great recommendation. So I thought it was a great film. David Cronenberg, thank you for the films.

Thank you for the time. Oh, thank you. Thank you to David Cronenberg. Thanks to Adam Naiman. Thanks to Amanda, of course. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Amanda teased it. We'll be back next week to break down a quartet, maybe a quintet

of action films. We'll have The Accountant 2, A Working Man, The Amateur, the Gareth Evans Netflix film Havoc, which is now out this weekend, and maybe G20, if you get around to it. Maybe I'll fire it up. I'll at least, you know, take a gander. Okay. Well, we'll see you then.