The Big Picture - The Superman Movie Rankings

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Sean is joined by Van Lathan and Rob Mahoney to recap the opening weekend reaction to James Gunn’s ‘Superman.’ They share their final thoughts on the film, analyze the first weekend box office numbers, highlight why it performed significantly worse internationally than domestically, and hypothesize what the DCU could look like going forward (1:30). Then, they talk through every Superman movie ever made and rank them (32:40). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Van Lathan and Rob Mahoney Producer: Jack Sanders THIS EPISODE IS SPONSORED BY THE STARBUCKS COFFEE COMPANY. ORDER NOW | STARBUCKS.COM/MENU Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Available now for a limited time only. Your Strato Frappuccino blended beverage is ready at Starbucks. I'm Sean Fennessy and this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Superman again, joining me today. Let's talk about James Gunn's Superman and to rank all the Superman movies, it's Rob Mahoney and Van Lathan. Couple programming things. Last week on the show, Amanda and I broke down the movie in full, as did Van and the Midnight Boys on the Ringerverse, as did Van and I on the House of R., if you want to know what we think about the movie,

you've heard it. There's roughly 14 hours of me and Van potting about it. But Rob Mahoney, I think you're the last living ringer podcaster... This is true. ...who has not had a chance to weigh in on this film. So, before we start getting into the box office and where this movie sits in the hierarchy of power in the Superman universe. You saw the movie Superman.

I did. What did you think? Did you like it? I just think it's really affirming when you see characters that are really important to you represented well on screen. And it's been a while, but they finally got Big Head Green Baby.

Just right. They fucking nailed it. They aced it. Wow, it's amazing that James Gunn knew exactly what you were looking for and he delivered. Do you care about Superman? Is he a character for you growing up in the movies? What's your relationship to him?

He is a guy in the mix for me. So I grew up as part of the Lewis and Clark generation, the Smallville generation as I was a teenager, like the DC animated stuff. That was kind of my entry point, you know, like Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, those kinds of things, more so than eventually finding the Reeve movies a little bit later.

But I would say I'm definitively more of a Batman guy. But Superman can hang out. We can do World's Finest. We can do, I guess, Batman v Superman, Dawn of Justice. And through that, I'm finding all these other entry points to some pretty good Superman stories here and there. You know what's interesting about that? Is I think that he was,

all of those things that he's describing, all of those properties, it was a part of people's willingness or their want for Superman to not culturally expire. Because when the Reeve movies are coming along and when we're growing up in the 80s, Superman is still a very strong cultural force. Like a really strong cultural force.

Then, you know, Batman's there, he's huge, big deal, but Tim Burton's Batman comes, that changes things. And that reorients DC, and also reorients people's connection to those characters. And then it's kind of Batman first, and it's Batman led for a long time. Superman comes back to TV, then Smallville comes, and then a whole new generation of people kind of get into the Superman lore. But we might have been the last actual Superman generation

to where our fathers, that was the biggest deal in the world for them and then they talked us into it. Well, there's a funny conversation that we could have that we are not prepared for, but I think is relevant to what we're discussing today, which is, you know, we've talked about the championship belt a lot over the years. Bill kind of developed this concept many years ago

that like only one person can be holding the belt as the very best at a certain thing. He was often talking about the NBA, Shea Serrano's done this a lot, Chris and Andy do it about TV shows on the watch. What's the number one show right now in the consciousness overall? The superhero belt in terms of decades

is really interesting, because like in the 50s you do have a Superman TV show, but then in the 60s you have a Batman TV show. And then in the 70s you finally get a Superman movie, and then in the 80s Superman reigns, and then in the 90s Batman TV show. And then in the 70s, you finally get a Superman movie. And then in the 80s, Superman reigns. And then in the 90s, Batman takes over. And then in the 2000s, I think it's Spider-Man. And then you get maybe X-Men, Iron Man's not until 2008.

Well, in the 2000s, it's Spider-Man, but then you get Batman Begins and The Darkness. Right. And then obviously in the 21st century, we have this wave of superhero movies and properties, so it's a little bit harder to sort out that period of time. But I agree with what Van is saying, that when I was a kid, Superman was like Clorox,

or like Kleenex. Like it was just like a part of the fabric of day-to-day life. In the 90s, my experience with Superman is basically entirely through Jerry Seinfeld. And Jerry Seinfeld. An adult man obsessed with Superman. He loved Superman. He had routines about Superman in his stand-up act and he often talked about him on the show

Seinfeld. Yeah. And Superman kind of went away with the exception of Lois and Clark. It's interesting that you were exposed to Lois and Clark. Oh yeah. Probably a little too young, but I'm here for the Superman antics and my parents are there for the Lois and Clark. Right, right. That was a show that I watched with my parents too, which is really interesting. The Superman stuff probably doesn't look very good these days if you go back and look at that show.

Have you gone back and looked at that show? The Lois and Clark stuff? The Dean Cain stuff doesn't look very good, but what can you do? Well, that's a whole other conversation as well. Dean Cain aged against Superman. If you, people are pulling up all of the clips from that show where they're treating Superman like an illegal alien and Superman is talking about the rights of people and he's talking

about what he's standing up for. Oh, you think that being on that show, Black Pill Dean Cain? No, no, no, no, no. I'm thinking. That would be an incredible take. That would be, but no, that's all I'm saying. What I'm saying is, I don't think Dean Cain remembers

the portrayal of Superman. That would be, but no, that's all I'm saying. What I'm saying is, I don't think Dean Cain remembers the portrayal of Superman. Like, Lewis and Clark were some coastal elites, or not coastal elites, coastal liberals that really looked at the world. Members of the media. Members of the media. And so people keep reminding him about this,

and it's just funny to see. Oh yeah. Well, in fairness, if you did a pod 30 years ago, would you remember a single take that you had on that pod? It's probably gonna be the same stuff Just recycle it kind of I use different lenses to funnel in the kind of I am kind of really I'm kind of hitting an endpoint I think in terms of like stuff. I got to share with you guys I'm rounding into like my second decade of this and You there's only so much material. That's true

But I mean I find that you're having existential crises on this show all the time. That's true. So you're hitting new depths to explore. Honestly, I think we're hitting new depths with Superman too. One thing I'm fascinated by, as we're talking about the timeline of when Superman was popular, when was he not,

during my formative years, Superman was very lame. He was straight boy scout. I want the edge of Batman. I want the cool of X-Men. I want all that stuff. This movie supposes and implies and suggests what if this is cool? What if this version of emoting and caring

and this kind of expression of power is cool for today? And if you're a teenager, especially if you're a tween into teenager right now, I would love to know what their relationship is to the Superman movie. Is this a cool movie or is this still a Boy Scout like story? I've been thinking about that a little bit too because you know my perception of this Superman is very kind of pop-punk, post-emo, very sensitive, very thoughtful, very engaged with the world, very engaged with humanity.

But that is also still not present-day teenagers. You know that is actually maybe more speaking to somebody that's your age or even a little bit younger. Yeah, it's a direct hit, unfortunately. Like they, now the superhero movies that are being made by 60 year olds are not being made for me in van anymore. They're now being made for you. How do you feel about that?

It's fine. You know, I'm good with it. I can also tap back into how I felt when I was 30 or 15 pretty easily, I think. But I find it fascinating, because it's a really good point. Do teens like this movie? Which is kind of important for the DCU

to really proliferate in the next 10 years. I don't know if you have anything else you want to say about the movie before we talk a little box office stuff. For sure. I mean, I think it is fun and bold and genuinely moving, which is something that to me is very important for a Superman movie. And it has all the elements of a Superman story that I want

and a lot of things I didn't know you could do with a Superman story. So you're able to pack all that stuff in and we can talk about the varying degrees to which they're successful or not. I know you guys already have talked about a lot of that. But I have incredible admiration for the fact that they tried so much. That James Gunn tried so much.

So much is packed in here as far as the messaging and the themes and the characters and introductions of world building. Like, it all kind of worked for me. Give or take a proton river or two. I think most of the stuff in this movie really, really works. Did you like Corn Sweat? I really loved him. I think they nailed kind of like the big three casting

with Clark and Lois and Lex Luthor. Like, all three of those I think are knocked out of the park. Has not historically been the case for most Superman movies. I would say most of them get maybe two. Sometimes one, sometimes zero to be honest with you as far as those three go. So the fact that all three were hitting at a really high level right off the bat. I understand what the relationships of these characters are. I'm understanding this articulation of Lex Luthor in a very specific and important way where he's like, and this is the thing about the Gene Hackman Luthor too, where he's just kind of like a weird terrorist living underground.

I want the Nicholas Holt's untouchable quality to Lex Luthor, where he is the guy in the high tower. Superman needs to walk up to him and he needs to want to to Lex Luthor, where he is the guy in the high tower. Superman needs to walk up to him, and he needs to want to punch Lex Luthor, and we need to want him to punch Lex Luthor, and he's not gonna do it. It's like the restraint is such an important part of this story, and I feel like a lot of Superman stuff

misses out on that, but this movie certainly did not. It's a good point. It is. I think our relationship to guys like Lex has changed. And it actually evolved over the course of Lex's comic run. Obviously, Lex starts off as this really brilliant corporate captain of industry who hated Superman and used all of his money and wealth and genius to do that. But you know what's funny when I go back and watch movies from like past eras?

Captains of industry, Titans, like really wealthy guys, were pretty much celebrated. Like they were, it was always thought what type of exceptional person you would have to be to get to that perch, right? And it was kind of celebrated in movies. Of course, there was like the asshole rich guy in movies that existed,

but I think about movies like The Edge with Anthony Hopkins where he's this billionaire and he knows everything and he's completely in control of all of these situations and all of this stuff. It's actually not till Superman 3 that there's like just somebody's complete corporate greed that kind of gets litigated. And then over time, Lex Luthor himself

becomes the president in the comics. And it's like, that's the kind of guy that becomes the president. So now this version of Lex that you're talking about. That would never happen in the real world though, just in comics. Exactly, just in comics. That's just a comic story.

Now this version of Lex that you're talking about, I think is freer for examination than it's ever been. And it makes that character a little bit easier because even as I was doing my rewatch, Kevin Spacey's Luther, like kind of a fast talking loser. Yeah. Right? Like a fast talking loser. A con man. A con man. Bright, brilliant, but takes advantage of an old lady and all of that. It was really the Smallville re-sort of centering of that character that kind of got us to the point that we are at now.

It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda, natural flavors. So, what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. I think part of that, obviously there's a lot that has happened in the world in terms of the industry that he captains that I think makes him, in theory, more vulnerable to some of those criticisms

in the way that we're framing him. Like him being a tech billionaire specifically, that's a very loaded phrase in our modern time. More specifically though, the like real, the matching sensitivity of Lex and Superman. That in a movie, they both are like kind of frail emotionally. Like they're kind of, they're very unsure of themselves and they're kind of, I don't think Superman overcompensates in this movie. Lex is really overcompensating in this new movie.

But Superman is almost having to convince himself of certain things at times, which is just like maybe a slightly different emotional valence than we expect from these movies, where square-jawed Chris Reeve is... So confident in his goodness. Yeah, yes. So confident in his goodness. Like so confident in his goodness

that he nearly lets Lois die because he promised somebody that he was going to, he promised Tess Mocker that he was going to save her mom in New Jersey first. Like so confident. And this Superman isn't really confident at anything as much as I say, but it's also because he's continuously being questioned, which they never do for past Superman.

I'm very curious to see what the reception is of this movie over time. Like, not just will it continue to do well at the box office, but will it be warmly accepted? There's two components to judge that. One is the box office and the other is the DCU movie. So let's just talk about that very quickly. So this movie came in at $217 million worldwide,

which I think is a little low. It did very well domestically. It made $122 million domestically. That puts it roughly where we expect a Superman movie to live in America. It's above Man of Steel slightly 12 years later, and it's lower than Batman versus Superman, even though that was a huge event movie that we'd all been waiting to see for decades but

then had a precipitous drop in the second week. So I think for like Warner Brothers it did pretty well here. I thought it was gonna go to 150 I thought people were gonna go crazy maybe just because of my own personal bias of really liking the movie. Didn't quite get there. Probably a variety of reasons for that. I think there you know there's a Jurassic movie that're you know, there's a Jurassic movie. That's still doing well There's an f1 movie that's still doing well And also I think like, you know the right kind of like jumped on this movie and said don't go see it Yes, yeah, and there's some politics to it that people are probably keeping some people away. Yeah, I

Think this is a good outcome for the movie now overseas There's two ways to look at it. It was light man It was light, man. It was light in a lot of places that they thought they would do better. Very light. Europe, extremely light. Now, what America represents in 2025,

and the American ideal is very different than in 1978 or even in 2013. So, this movie's gonna struggle to get to some of those like 600, $700 million thresholds. Sure. Yeah. And I guess that matters to what is and is not made over time. The next two movies that are confirmed for the DCU are Supergirl and Clayface.

Those are much more modest propositions on a worldwide scale. So it would be kind of fascinating if we had a comic book universe that was more like singles doubles in the occasional home run with very few desires to hit grand slams. I feel like the MCU set this precedent

and the DCEU kind of followed the precedent of like, yeah, we could just throw off a billion dollar movie. I feel like when that happens, you don't get this kind of messaging. Like frankly, this is the cost of doing this type of business. You want to make a Superman movie that's overtly about immigration and Gaza, this is what happens.

Like there's going to be a cost in certain markets, as you say, there's a projection of Americanism in Superman that is distinct among every superhero. Like I would say Superman is more American than Captain America is. It is truth, justice in the American way, it's baked into the character. He interacts with the American government

in this movie and all these movies more than basically any other superhero does. They all have like fake dummy governments that represent whatever place that they're from, but this is like an American story. And if it's an American story at a particularly turbulent American time dealing with incredibly complex world issues, I think there's just gonna be

some people who aren't gonna see it. As long as it creeps over the line of let's make more interesting things, I'm totally fine with it. I don't need the Grand Slams, frankly. And if we wanna play double baseball all day, I'm cool with that as long as you get runs on the board. Yeah. What do you think?

Well, it depends on their approach to the movies that follow. If the movies that follow go, you know what, We need to make sure that these are the most four quadrant things that could possibly exist. Let's snatch a little bit of this stuff out, the real world critiques out. I would be disappointed. I'll be disappointed because the DCU has the opportunity to actually tell these stories

the way they're told in comic books. And there are very few stories that are told in comic books that are not directly influenced by the world that we live in. Like, you see world leaders show up in these books sometimes. So I thought that the movie was pretty on the nose with some of the stuff that it was talking about, and I was surprised,

but I also felt like it gave the movie some weight. Yeah, totally agree. It grounded it a little bit, and I was happy about that. I was too. I wouldn't ask for less of that. Gun in particular is... I say this as a compliment, a very strident filmmaker. It's very comfortable saying, this is what this movie's about.

Yeah. And I will make you understand in clear terms what it's about. And even in the press sometimes, I'll tell you what the themes are. Yeah. I interview a lot of filmmakers. Many of them are very reluctant to do that. He always goes the opposite way. This is sometimes the downside of that.

122 million in the US is a huge success. I'm not criticizing that, but it's not, we are far away from the $357 million opening of Endgame. I don't know if we're ever coming back to that. I'm sorry to the ringer verse for that, but that just, that feels like 50 years ago now. No, it's over. But it's also over because I think sometimes we underplay or under discuss just how impressive

the filmmaking experiment that the MCU was to lead people throughout all those different episodes of the MCU, which is essentially what those movies are, to this grandiose final act where every single character, for the most part, gets their ending. There are a couple of new beginnings that we all were like, it's not gonna work. Even when we're in the movies, we're like, I don't know where they're gonna go with that. But it was just very special. Very special. And it kind of spoiled us a little bit.

It went almost perfectly. And I don't know if like Secret Wars at this point, Doomsday at this point, they're just saying, hey, we're gonna throw everybody in a movie and expect kind of the same results, but it wasn't the same leader. Yeah, they haven't built us up to something

in the same way, obviously. So I do wanna do some quick accounting on Warner Brothers, which at the beginning of the year was the punching bag of the punditry about how they're going to fail this year, and they are in fact currently the most successful movie studio. Maybe not from a pure dollars perspective,

but in terms of the swings that they're taking and the fortune that they're reaping from exciting movies. So Minecraft movie, $955 million worldwide so far. Sinners, $366 million worldwide. That's crazy. Maybe even crazier, Final Destination Bloodlines, $285 million. That's bananas. F1, $393 million and counting.

Now they just distributed that movie. They didn't produce it. Apple produced it, but still that's a win for them. And now Superman 217 in one week. Only a couple more movies for them for the rest of the year. There's Weapons, very excited about that on this show. The Conjuring Last Rites,

apparently the last Conjuring movie. Then there's One Battle After Another. Probably do an episode or two about it. I can imagine. Seems important. I don't know if it's gonna make $285 million like Final Destination Bloodlines, but we'll see. What makes you say that?

You never know. You never know. If it does, we're eating good. You throw a lawn mower and some class. We're going to Roos Chris on this podcast. We are getting filet. I love Roos Chris. Roos Chris is fantastic.

I'm scared of weapons, guys. I don't know if I can do it. Weapons is freaking me out, man. I keep telling you this. It's terrifying. Weapons is freaking me out, man. I keep telling you this. Weapons is freaking me out. I don't even know what weapons is about. But weapons, you know what weapons reminds me of? Just real quick, 30 seconds.

Big pick audience, I'm sorry, I'm doing a van thing. Don't self-actualize, just do it. So remember that movie, The Ring? Sure, yes. All right, man. There was a show that came on BET called BET Uncut. I know it. You know it very well.

All right, Rob, you know BET Uncut? I don't, fill me in. It was exactly what it sounds like. It sounds like a lot of things. BET videos. After hours. Got you. After hours.

Okay. So I would watch BET Uncut, obviously. And the commercial for the ring came on. Who was going that was like two short video? Like who was really in the rotation? This was, so this might have, I don't think this was Tip Drill era, this was the tell me what that thing smell like era. I'm gonna kick it tonight, oh, tell me what that thing smell like. That was the song.

I promise you, Rob, that was the record. That was the record. And, you know, it's late. And so the commercial for The Ring came on and that was a freaky commercial. The little girl, she's crawling, the ring. I'm like, and a lot of times you're high, I'm like, yo, what the fuck is going on?

I've never seen The Ring. I can't make myself watch the movie. You couldn't get there. I couldn't get there with the movie. So you never saw it? I never saw The Ring. It's very good. My guy, Gore Verbinski.

I never saw The Ring. This show sounds like great content waiting to be made. Man watches The Ring, watch along. Never saw it, never saw it. And for some reason, Weapons is doing the same thing to me. Like Weapons is freaky, it's kids, it's all of these really talented actors, which tells you that the script is good.

If all of them are in it, normally that means it's a good, scary script. You know who was supposed to be in it instead of Josh Brolin? Who? It was supposed to be Pedro Pascal, which would have been a lot of Pedro Pascal this summer. Yeah. And he dropped out. Not mad at that switch have been a lot of Pedro Pascal this summer. Yeah.

And he dropped out. Not mad at that switch, to be honest with me either. Relax. Weapons, we're very hopeful here on the big picture. And then the last movie that WB has is Mortal Kombat 2. Oh, sure. I'll do it. I thought the first one was not great, but I weirdly think the second one will be great. Why do I feel that way? I don't know. I'm an idiot. I just have vibes. Johnny Cage.

You gotta have Johnny Cage. There's... I thought you were saying Sean is a Johnny Cage type. A Mortal Kombat movie? The first Mortal Kombat movie was... It's got a special place in my heart because... The original. The Paul W.S. Anderson one. No. That one is legitimately good. Okay? No, it's not. But okay. It's fun. That's legitimately good. Okay.

But the one that came out a couple years ago, it's not, but okay. Okay, well, it's fun. That's a little generally good, okay. But the one that came out a couple years ago, it just, it was in the pandemic, and I was ready for it, and it was so stupid. But it just has a special place in my heart. They're selling the new one on Johnny Cage so hard. Carl Urban will be Johnny Cage in this movie. Look at this poster. It looks like the name of the movie is Uncaged Fury.

What's going on here? This doesn't even say Mortal Kombat 2. Absolutely not. Not interested. They teased Johnny Cage at the end. I'm waiting for Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3. Until we get to the proper installment. I'm not fucking around.

Understood. Future of the DCU, aside from Supergirl and Clayface, you know, technically the Batman 2, they turned us, Matt Reeves turned to script in. Yeah. You know, I think the first time we convened this panel, was it the first time or was it the Nicholas Cage Hall of Fame the first time? It was one of the two.

So one of the two during the pandemic, we talked about the Batman and we ranked Batman movies. And so I thought it was right for us to come back together to do that. What form Batman is going to take is interesting. I heard a rumor slash sourced rumor. Okay. Aggregate this.

That I cannot share. That was very exciting to me. Okay. I'll tell you off mic. Okay. I'm very sorry to the audience for that but I just cannot share it. Great podcasting right there, Sean.

That's called holding the information. I'm holding it for a later date. But I think what they decided to do with Batman is obviously pretty important with all this. Whether they can actually make characters like Lobo matter to movie going audiences we shall see. Is there anything you'd really want to see? Did you talk about this on your Midnight Boys episode?

You didn't, right? Like what is the DCU movie you really want? I think I more so want to see characters than I'll want to see specific movies. I was really actually excited for the authority movie, which it doesn't seem like is going to happen now. They were always really cool. Even though the engineers in this film,

it doesn't seem like she is coming back as part of the authority. She did survive the movie. She did survive the movie. She did survive the movie, which I thought that maybe there might be a turn for her at the end. But she was a little bit skeptical of Lex. She was, seemed like it.

I think they set us up for that. A little bit, right? But I'm interested in Lobo. Clayface will tell me whether or not the DCU works. That's the movie to me, they'll tell you whether or not it works. This one, the fact that James Gunn can make a fucking awesome Superman movie, I always knew that. But if...

Did you? I did. I remember you being so scared. I was scared once I saw the trailer. Before that it seemed like it made sense. Before that it's like, oh, you need an earnest, sweet movie with a lot of spectacle. James Gunn. But now, Clayface, it's with a lot of spectacle, James Gunn.

But now, Clayface, it's such a swing, and it's such a distinct and interesting project to even take on. That tells me whether or not their world has form and shape. Yeah. Honestly, I'm really looking forward to the Damon Lindelof lanterns show. Oh wow, yeah.

Green Lantern, a character that, again, is kind of like in the mix for me, but not like one of my guys distinctly. So I'm very curious to see what they do with a variety of lanterns in that context. Obviously, we get one here in Superman, too. Actually, I was really pleasantly surprised and heartened to see Hawker Girl in this movie. A character who I know, again, mostly through the Justice League animated show. And is a really cool character in the context of that show.

And I just assumed like would never really be on screen in a meaningful way in a movie. And so the fact that she can be done well in a movie, I think is it bodes very strongly for what they could do with some of these minor characters. Now can they hold their own movie in the way that like I'm sure they hope that Clayface will and hope that a Lobo will? We'll see about that. But incorporating some of these world building elements, I think so far has gone more smoothly

than I would have imagined. I'm very curious to see if they market Clayface as a hard DCU movie or as just a movie along the lines of The Conjuring. It's directed by James Watkins, it's written by Mike Flanagan. These are horror filmmakers. And they might just position the movie in like a DCU dark.

Like there might be a kind of like sub universe in which they can make 50 to $75 million movies that don't have to make $800 million to justify themselves. I would love that. I was asking for that from the MCU a long time ago while understanding that they were building towards these epic events.

That's part of the fun of comic books is like not every comic book needs to be, you know, the infinity crisis or whatever. Like, they don't have to be these like lead ups to something. Anyway, do you remember how we ranked the Batman movies? Do you want to hear how we did it some years ago? I would love to hear it. There were 14 Batman films at that time.

I think there are still only 14 Batman films if you don't include those animated films that you're talking about. Other than... I remember we did Mask of the Phantasm. That one's a theatrical. It's fucking fantastic. Anything related to Batman the animated series that was theatrical, we would do.

So, 14... Well, first of all, three of these movies will come up again today in our rankings. Batman and Robin was 14. RIP Joel Schumacher. Justice League, directed by Joss Whedon was 13 Batman the Superman Dawn of Justice was 12 The Snyder Cut was 11 the

1966 Batman movie. Oh, yeah was 10 a movie. I really liked good The Lego Batman movie was nine. Too high. Batman Forever was eight. Mal would kill you if she heard you say that. That's just not a funny movie. You don't think he's funny? I think we talked about it. It just didn't work for me.

And so if you've got it. He might be sitting at nine because of you. I think it probably was. If you've got a joke a minute movie and the jokes aren't landing, I just feel like I'm being pummeled at a certain point. Watching Batman eat lobster Thermidor, it's like unreal.

He's hysterical to me. Number seven is The Dark Knight Rises. Very silly movie. Maybe funnier than the Lego Batman movie. Number six is Batman Begins. Number five is Mask of the Phantasm. Number four was The Batman. Number three was Batman Returns. Number two was Batman.

And number one was The Dark Knight. Are you guys ready to admit that Batman Returns is better than Batman 84 yet? Are you ready to put the proverbial bird in your mouth a la Catwoman and just swallow it down? You weren't there. You don't know. I know which movie is better. I remember arguing about it. I still am quite upset. I feel like residual frustration in my chest with the two of you I don't want to generationally other you but I will and you weren't there stuff. It's it's it's not better But for some reason it's not better. It's not better. But because my Nicholson, bro Like it's it's it's not better Prince. Yeah, sure. Yeah, man

It's not Jack Nicholson participated in Batman Jack Nicholson participated eight minutes He was fucking cooking in that movie. It's true, but it is he got paid so much money to do that Really? What do you get like 10% of the gross or something and first dollar? Yeah over a top dollar yeah over bit, but it I will say that Batman Returns is The more contemporary story of the two oh, it's bit. But I will say that Batman Returns is the more contemporary story of the two. Oh, it's Trump. It's Oswald Cobblebot. Batman Returns is the more contemporary story of the two. Preciate.

Yeah, the first one is a better, it's a better movie to me, but when I watch, I can connect more to Batman Returns watching it right now than the original Batman. I appreciate that Olive Branch fan thing. Yeah, yeah, just keep it around. I offer you nothing.

Um, Superman rankings. I'm gonna list the movies that we're gonna rank today, and I think we should talk about each of them with some care. Can we go, before we leave, you know what's, before we leave Batman real quick, before we leave Batman, leave Crime Alley, there is a discussion to be had about,

I think the nerds will back me up, about the Dark Knight Rises versus Matt Reeves the Batman. Now we did do this ranking in the immediate aftermath of the Batman. Right. The Dark Knight Rises is very silly. Okay. It has cool stuff in it. Yeah.

We did, we were- Ridiculously cool stuff. Like shit that's so fucking cool that, Bane's interest into that movie is so fucking cool. It's like shit that's so cool that you go, okay, I'm a pilot. But like, it, it, it, it, but there's like fucking cool. It's like shit that's so cool that you go, okay, I'm a pilot. But like, it, it, it, but it's like really cool shit. I think there's an argument there.

I still would have Reeves Batman a little bit over it. Charles would not. He loves the Dark Knight Rises. I think the Dark Knight Rises is, it's got some momentum with the people right now. Interesting. Are they familiar with the back half of that movie? They are, and they like it.

Which is... It's a pretty terrible third act, in my opinion. Quite bad. Look, all I'm saying is there are a lot of people who are looking at Bane, they're looking at Batman's arc. I'm looking at Catwoman. I was about to say. Looking at Catwoman. Which is something all of us were looking at, I think, in that movie. She's fantastic in it movie. I'm looking at Catwoman. I was about to say. Looking at Catwoman.

Which is something all of us were looking at, I think, in that movie. She's fantastic in it. I just think the movie was, it was... Glenn Powell as a stockbroker. Sure. Concussion. It was received, to me, in a fair way,

which is, this is a movie that like, doesn't really work towards the end, but still the Robin thing is stupid and all that. I actually liked the like set up and reveal, but it was annoying knowing this would never happen. Like even watching the movie in real time, I was like, this guy will never be back. Like no one's never making another one of these movies.

They're not gonna continue this universe. And they didn't. Right, but I think that the movie's aging really well and people are reexamining it. I don't know why, maybe because it's on cable so much. Maybe. It's very rewatchable. Yes.

In an idle, like, I can just walk out of the room for 20 minutes during the back half, like that genre of movie, I think it's quite successful. I agree, we did a watch along on this show of the movie, because it's just a fun to watch. Whether it's good or not is debatable. I think also how the Batman 2 is and what Reeves does in the future

will probably help determine some of these rankings in the future. Certainly. But we're not doing Batman right now. We're doing Superman. There have been a lot of Superman movies. Probably not too many yet. I think it'll be interesting to see how many movies either James Gunn or the DCU decides to focus on Superman.

When we were kids, there were four straight Superman stand-alone movies. And I don't know if it was Zack Snyder or Warners or whatever kind of blinked in that era. And immediately it was like, not another Superman movie. It's got to be Superman and other stuff. Yeah. And that's quite fascinating and even different from what the MCU has largely done. So you've got technically five, but literally four Superman movies from the Reeve era. We will be talking about the Donner cut

here on this episode. One Brandon Routh movie from 2006, directed by Bryan Singer. Then the Henry Cavill era, there is Man of Steel, Batman versus Superman, Dawn of Justice, Justice League, and Zack Snyder's Justice League.

We will not be addressing the ultimate cut of Batman v Superman, which has an additional 30 minutes of footage that I have not watched in preparation for this episode and will not watch probably ever. And then now we have David Cornsweat era, James Gunn Superman. Right. How many movies is that? Eleven. Eleven movies.

Okay. You've talked a lot about the Christopher Reaver. Mm-hmm. The first two films are directed by Richard Donner. One of the signature Hollywood directors of the 70s and 80s, you know, responsible for the Lethal Weapon franchise. The Omen. The Omen. Yeah. A number of really good movies. Inside Moves, big Bill Simmons movie that Chris Ryan refuses to watch for the rewatchables. Conspiracy Theory, he directed that movie. I remember that. Julie Roberts, Mel Gibson, have you seen it Rob?

Have not. It's about 4chan. So is Superman it turns out, you know, there's a lot of posting happening. There's a lot of posting. So you came to the Reeve movies later? A little later. Like I would say I watched the first two in my later teenage years,

and I had heard the third and fourth ones were so bad. Like don't even bother watching them. Came to those a little later in life. I have differing opinions on them to some extent. But yeah, the first two I was not as locked in as I was on Batman, but early enough to kind of have it be a semi-formative part of the experience.

So for me, the first Superman movie, and this is not a criticism, is at the very top of the second tier of 70s blockbusters. Okay. The first tier is very clearly Jaws, Star Wars. There's a handful of movies that are so totemic, that are so impactful in my life. That Superman doesn't get over those, but it's right below those.

Because I watched it all the time from four to 12. Reeve is Superman to me. Will always be Superman to me. And the movie did something that I think was very smart that other filmmakers have tried to do, but have struggled to do with this character, which is that they cast a lot of really, really good actors to elevate the material.

Zack Snyder tried to do this too, and it didn't work quite as well. But when you look back on those movies now and you see Marlon Brando's face, and he's kind of terrible in Superman, but it doesn't matter because he has so much gravitas that you're just convinced that even though he's, pronouncing the word Krypton instead of Krypton,

you still kind of buy it. He has that like, Alec Guinness in Star Wars effects, where it's like, credibility. Immediately right off the bat, like he's so, or featured so early in the movie and then like robbed out of the second one, but like he does bring a sort of, like a sense of legitimacy and grounding to it for sure. And he was the father of acting for that time. He was everybody's dad.

He and so seeing him he was legitimately the father of the greatest film that's ever been made. So him going from Vito Corleone. Island of Dr. Moreau you're talking about? It's a Van classic. I bet it is. It's a Van classic. I'm worried about you, Van. It's a Van classic. To him being Superman's dad, it just made sense.

You know who didn't really respect it is Christopher Reeve. He fucking killed him. He really did not like him and talked about it publicly about how he did not work hard on this movie. Yeah. When I saw that for the first time, it made me respect Reeve so much more. He did that on David Letterman.

Yeah. Just ripped Brando a new one. That is something that would never happen now. Like never. And it didn't seem uncomfortable for anyone, he was just talking his shit. And I'm like, he must really have had an odd or bad time. I think I had seen that before,

but seeing it in the recent Christopher Reeve doc that came out last year, it's bracing. And Reeve, that's an interesting portrait of him as a man and kind of the positives and the struggles that he had and the way that he got a little big for his britches too when he was Superman and like his relationship to his family. Very interesting movie. But he's not really portrayed as like a braggadocious A-list movie star.

He actually seems relatively humble about his work. So for him to have done that, he must have really hated Brenda. Yeah. Superman holds a very special place for me. Do you agree with that A-tier thing, or is this movie over those others too? No, I have to agree with it.

And it's funny because in the research, they wanted Spielberg maybe to have a shot to direct this movie, but after Jaws, they couldn't get him. So they just, they thought he was out of reach. So it showed that there were tears to it. Donner was obviously a big director and a big gift for them. The movie and the production of it is almost itself deserves a documentary or a film made about that. But no, it's certainly under those movies, but it is unique in that it is proof of concept to big budget superhero storytelling in a very direct way.

It's legitimately the father of all the other films. It is like Patient Zero. It's the thing that kicked every, I think it is really the thing that kicked everything off. Like without this movie, we're not in this place right now. Superman 2, I think the Lester cut is fine and it's what I grew up watching. The Donner cut is like roughly 15 minutes shorter, tighter. It's a little bit hard to evaluate because there's ADR and there's some like special effects stuff

that's not as sharp as you would want it to be and you would expect if he remained on the film but he was fired from it and replaced by Lester, who I think to that point was probably best known for like the Three Musketeers movies, and then before that, the Beatles films, Hard Day's Night, Help, and stuff like that. I unequivocally love this movie. So I don't... even the two cuts, like it's not even like a problem area for me.

It's not... we were discussing the idea of like the... which cut is better than the other history on House of R earlier. And it's gonna be hard to move past these two in these rankings. It's kind of interesting that they're almost 40 years old and they still feel like maybe the purest conception of the character.

Superman 2 is fucking amazing, man. It's fucking amazing. The first movie is proof of concept to the fact that you can make a man fly. The second movie is proof of concept that you can make people care about not super, but man. By overwhelming him with forces, by making him contend with the legacy of his family and the past of his planet, depowering him, repowering him, it's just a really fucking good movie. There's a surprising choice that is made in the first movie

of inserting Terrence Stamp, Zod, and sending those three figures from Krypton to the Phantom Zone, and then paying that off in the next movie, which is that the first kind of purposeful, not even Easter egg. That's the first Thanos, I'll do it myself. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, and it's not a stinger,

it's a pre-stinger, you know? It's a little amuse-bouche before the meal of Superman 2, which is kind of a fascinating, I mean, I'm sure they thought Superman would be successful, so it's a good idea to set something like that up, but in 1978, that was pretty bold. And it was kind of a double production, but also kind of not,

I would say if you're gonna pick any nit with the first Superman, it's that it takes like an hour for Christopher Reeve to show up. And the second he does, that movie takes off. And so it's like, do you need the Zod preamble and the Kryptonian justice system up top? Maybe you don't, but I admire that they were trying to see that stuff so early. So the thing, first of all, I was going to ask you this about the double production of movies. Had that happened before?

Because now we see it on a film that undertaking, them knowing that we are getting into a franchise here. That this is a franchise. Like we're getting into a franchise. I can't think of one off the top of my head. I'm sure there must have been some version of this, but. The thing that works about Superman 1 in terms of the beginning to me,

the Krypton stuff is like, you watch it and you go, oh shit, alien. Like, I'm on another planet. Yeah. And I think to myself, for all of Man of Steel's problems, which it has a lot, the Krypton stuff in the movie is really well done to me. It tastes pretty good. It's really well done. We'll come back to that.

But when you watch that stuff and like the it's glowing and it's and you're like, oh. He's riding a fucking dragon all of a sudden. No, I'm talking about the original Super Mario. Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about the original. It's kind of the same thing, but like when you watch that first movie and it's like, oh shit, and it's like the little baby that's walking through the thing, you're like, Jesus Christ, this is where he's from,

and it's such a contrast to the world that we live in, that I think it was probably deeply, deeply curiosity inspiring for a lot of people who watch the movie. Okay, Superman 3, trust me, I got a lot of manna still takes. Superman 3, Richard L I got a lot of man still takes Superman 3 Richard Lester stays on this project I hadn't seen this movie in some time and

I think it's very silly and yet I liked it. I Didn't love it. Yeah, it's a it's a little long. It's a little long and It definitely wants to be Silver Streak instead of a Superman movie. It's a good call. You know, like it wants to be a zany Richard Pryor movie and it kind of like won't let itself be a Superman movie for long stretches of time. Yeah. But I didn't hate it. I'll also say, Annetto Tool is very important to me. Yeah. Very pretty. And I don't love the side lining of Lois. We understand some of the reasons why

Margo Kidder having some struggles. This affects both of the next two Superman movies. But I was happy to be with Lana quite a bit. And I got maybe a little bit too much Robert Vaughn and Pamela Stevenson. Superman got a lot of Pamela Stevenson in that movie. He did. He basically like did a BP oil spill

just so he could get with Pamela Stevenson. Yeah. Wow. The original thirst trap was Lord Lai. Yeah. These are some low-key like super horny movies. Like every woman in the Reeves Superman is like trying to get with Superman all the time.

I respect it. Kind of makes sense. What did you think about Superman 3? I like how weird it is. And honestly, if you're gonna make me pick between the flawed Superman movies as we will, give me the one that's like a little funnier and lighter on its feet.

And then I'm trying to, I'm like constantly trying to figure out like what is this movie? In a way that I don't mind. What do you think of it? So contemporary superhero comedy, which they kind of hadn't tried to do that, right? Everything is a first is almost first. But like when you watch the film,

what I didn't remember about watching the movie before was the beginning sequence, which. Which the Richard Pryor at the unemployment office or the like five minute Mr. Magoo sequence that sets up various Superman saves. That, the credit scene, which is super, it's almost as if Lester went, you know what? I came in and I did the Donner movie.

And even though it became my movie, because he reshot tons of stuff, it was Richard Lester's movie to the degree that it could be. If I was making the Superman movie, this is how I would make it. This is what I think we should do. There should be a lot of comedy. There should be Richard Pryor.

All of this stuff. It's like, because it's totally so different than what we just saw. Yes. Like completely different. The beginning scene annoyed the shit out of me because I didn't remember it as much. And I was like, let's get to the shit.

But there's some good stuff in there, man. There's the, we fucked up the kryptonite and it really just turned Superman antisocial rather than it kills him. The synthetic kryptonite doesn't hit the same. Doesn't hit the same. It's a cool idea that leads to arguably the best Reeve performance

because he's playing opposite of each other and so he gets to do something a little different than kind of dopey bumbling Clark opposite the majestic Superman. He gets to play like a lot of colors. From like a storytelling logic perspective, Superman like splitting in two, I'm not sure I fully get the math on that one.

I mean, I think it's a metaphor. I could be wrong. I mean, it is a metaphor, but in a very literal move. Yes, incredibly literal. See, during those scenes, you can tell that Reeve is having so much fun. He likes it. He does. Even when he's just a little bad, right?

And he starts trying to hit on Lana. And he goes, I always get there on time. Sit down. Have a little time, let's have a little talk. Superman's trying to holler at us. Whoever did the eyeliner in that movie went crazy. Crazy. And then Superman starts getting the five o'clock shadow

coming in. Oh, it's so good. Huh? What are you looking at? What are you looking at, huh? Get out of here! I really like that scene early on when he has just received the altered kryptonite, where he's in Lana's house and she gets a phone call that there's like a bridge coming

out. That's what I was just talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what he's saying. Because he's just a little bad right now. And he's looking at her like, what's up with you? You's what I'm saying. Because he's just a little bad right now. Okay, yeah. And he's looking at her like, what's up with you?

You know what I'm saying? It's Superman. What's the deal, baby? Superman 4. You know, it's a movie. It's, let me put it this way. It's not as bad as I remembered. Okay.

I kind of speak on it. What spoke to you this time? Well, so the film rights go to Golan and Globus from canon films. Famous, kind of like Schlockmeisters, who made a lot of movies in the 70s and 80s that were very genre-focused. They're kind of like spiritual, but not creative successors to Roger Corman. And they made a lot of movies in that time that are not great but are fun. If you were a kid in the 80s

and the Golden Globus thing came on before a movie, you just knew that the movie was about to have a lot of action and it was probably a good hang. And probably some babes. That was the other thing, that they were very interesting babes. And this movie is not as lewd as some of their movies and not as violent as some of their movies,

but it is as silly as a lot of their movies. I had forgotten how much I remembered about Nuclear Man. Yeah. When Nuclear Man shows up in this movie, I was like, oh yeah, I watched this a lot. I'm very familiar with this very strange actor and his kind of growling voice that has been 80 yard by Gene Hackman.

Yes. Well, what's going on with the Gene Hackman voice? Do we know? Did you know that? That Gene Hackman is doing nuclear man's voice? Isn't that bizarre? It is, but nuclear man has part of Lex's DNA. I get it. And also part of Superman's DNA, right? Well, it's most of Superman's DNA, but it's the hair. The hair. We didn't talk about this, but...

This is straight up in the new movie. The fact that- There was something else, to be honest with you. He pulls a couple of things, James Gunn, from this movie. Yep. The fact that this is an inspiration for the new Superman is really interesting, and I didn't clock it at all until I rewatched this.

He pulls a couple of, he literally redoes like a couple of scenes from past Superman movies just to go, this is my version of this. Yeah. This is my version of this. This is my version of this. But I'm sorry I stepped on you, Ralph. Oh, no, I was gonna say, I was thinking starting

with the fact that both are movies of advocacy. Like this movie gets made because Christopher Reeve wants to make a movie about nuclear proliferation. Like that was his cause in the making of Superman 4. And so if you want to take the lineage of these Superman movies and how they influence the new one, it's all over the place in terms of this really direct connection with a quest for peace of all things.

It's at least a really easy watch because it's 90 minutes. Reportedly, there is a two and a half hour cut that features many long Christopher Reeve monologues about nuclear warheads that the producers and studio cut. Tough beat for Reeve. We already talked about on another podcast my fear of nuclear war era of my life. You talked about it on the Ryan Rosillo podcast, one of the craziest and most entertaining. I texted you both right away when I was listening to it.

I was like, this is insane. I love this. So imagine that kid obsessed with comic books, right? And then Superman comes out and saves the world from nuclear war. I cannot in any way be objective about the movie. I fucking love it. It's not very good. I get it, guys. I get it. There's so much. There's Lenny Luther. It's like a really goofy, weird John Cryer performance in there. I don't know what's going on with the accent. Like the voice he's doing. I don't know what's going on with the accent like the voice he's doing. I don't know what it is bizarre

It's who is Lex's sibling. I have no had that birthed John Cryer took great question Yeah, we never meet that character Maryl Hemingway in the movie beautiful beautiful like the whole nine pretty good performance I feel like she's really game for the tone that they're trying to do even heartening that you know a Magnate who buys a newspaper could appoint their daughter, a nepo baby, to run it, and she could understand through time and experience the value of good journalism. It's a really good point. Even the part, when I was rewatching it,

I was like, Jesus Christ, I love this. When Lex sends out the signal, and only Superman can hear it and the whole thing. The dog whistle, yeah. I just remember so much of that. It's one of those, The dog whistle, yeah. I just remember so much of that. It's one of those, everybody has one, guys. Everybody has one, a movie that is whatever from your past,

and you just can't judge it with straight eyes, that's Superman. I kind of agree with you in that I would rather watch this than Superman 3, personally. Now, it doesn't mean that it's better from an aesthetic perspective, but for example, the scene where Clark and Superman need to entertain Lois and Maryl Hemingway's character simultaneously, that's just really fun. That part is great.

But also, why would he ever agree to that double date? Why would he think that that's a thing? And then it's a good point. Flawed screenwriting and yet brilliant. You know, Van, you raised your specific fears with nuclear war. I have a very specific fear about Superman 4 that I need to share with you, which is I think Lois's brain at this point is just mush. Like, her brain has been wiped by Superman so many times at this point. But she does remember certain things.

Kinds. Over time, right? What's the one thing she remembers, she calls out to Superman about that she's Callelle that your name is Callelle. It starts coming back to her. Yes, but like she has been like men in black mindwiped Several times in this movie and in the previous two movies that she's in like I just I'm concerned about the state of her Is that a canon power that Superman has? Well, certainly not the kissing mindwiped one I don't remember it. That one is questionable. But it became something that I was always waiting

for him to do to everyone. Fly in, just kiss everybody, I don't even remember you're there. Yeah, can't do that post-MeToo. Can't do that post-MeToo. But they all wanna kiss you in these movies. That's true. It seems pretty consensual in the first four Supermen.

By the way, and these movies are so male. You guys have already talked about it. The only thing that's stopping Superman from being a weapon, like a complete enemy of female lady advancement is the fact that he's such a nice guy. Cause he gets fond over, he does whatever he wants. He dictates, he looks at Lois' panties. Even though she asked for her consent. What color? She did ask him to look. She asked, she asked, and then he wants. He dictates, he looks at Lois's panties, even though she asked for her consent.

What color? She did ask him to look. She asked, she asked, and then he looked. But he is so swinging his super dick around. Like, not even trying to. But every single one, think about the colon to a diamond thing from Three. Why are you gonna overwhelm Lana like that?

That's a lot. She ain't never seen nothing like that. She ain't never seen nothing like that. She ain't never seen nothing like that before. He just, that's some real, come on, bro. You know, that's like Drake buying the girl the $10,000 Chanel bag. Yeah, it's the same thing. She ain't never seen nothing like that, bro.

You gonna get her up there in Toronto and she gonna hang with Drake for the whole week and then she's gonna call her family back in Tallahassee and be like, yo, I think I'm in love. And he crushes the big ass diamond. She ain't never seen nothing. And literally gets down on one knee to give it to her. Right!

What is a woman supposed to think? Look, he didn't invent gaslighting, but he certainly protected it. But yeah! No, no, come on, Clark. He took care of Lana in the end. At the end of that movie, they were together. And he was gonna be a father to that child.

But canonically, then he apparently just like left the fucking plane. Golan and Globus were like, fuck that. Four is really fun. It's stupid, but it's fun. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive? By creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size. Whether you're taking over your parents' basement or moving to campus, IKEA has hundreds of design ideas and affordable options to complement any budget. After all, you're in your small space era. It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca.

No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Let's talk about Superman Returns. I had not seen this movie since it came out. I don't know why. Maybe I do know why now that I revisited it but 2006 this is a

canonical sequel to Superman 2 now the movie dispenses with the events of Superman 3 and Superman 4 and Something that maybe didn't lock into my mind in 2006 But makes a lot of sense now is that Bryan Singer who had been directing X-Men movies at this stage of his career, those movies were produced by Lauren Shuler Donner, who was Richard Donner's wife and a very successful producer. They ran the Donner Company together. So in their mind, who better to continue the legacy of the Donner Superman movies than Bryan Singer? Knowing what we know now, we know that was not the best idea for a variety of reasons, obviously some very serious ones, and also the fact that Singer is a messy director who makes messy movies,

some of which reach great heights, some of which are bewildering. This movie is kind of neither. It's just like a stale piece of bread. It's like a crazy, inert, dull slog of a movie you know, crazy inert, dull, slug of a movie with none of the verve and oddity of the first four movies, but also none of the, at least the kind of like, committed upon intensity and anger of Man of Steel,

which I despise, but could at least defend as an artistic choice. I've totally forgot what a nothing this movie is. Can I posit a reason why that's the case? It's really clear that this movie owes a lot to the Donner movies. Like there are so many direct references to them, down to like Clark following Lois too fast

into the revolving door, and like all these little callbacks to the original movies that feel like cosplay to the point that I just, I'm losing the earnestness. There's so much winking happening. But also it feels like a movie that loves those movies and holds them so tightly, but is so ashamed to want to be them.

And the way that honestly, like X-Men and X-Two managed to overcome this a little bit, those are ashamed to be X-Men movies. They don't wanna put anybody in spandex. Like they don't want the bright colors. And so picking Bryan Singer, of all people, for all reasons, to be the director of this movie, which was like such a bad call.

And I think muted it into just an absolute like snooze fest of a movie. It's so drab. So did you, how many times have you seen this movie? I'm not sure. I don't remember when the last time I had seen it prior to this rewatch, it was by far the least fun part of me rewatching all of these. It's direct. It's like terrible. It's the worst part of

superhero storytelling. It's unambitious. It's derivative. It plays loose and fast with the canon of the character. It introduces things like a super son that it can't possibly in any way come to terms with. It just kind of dangles it out there and leaves it there. The leads have no chemistry. Now crazy how off they both are. I mean honestly, like Spacey is fine, I would say, but I would say they go 0 for 3 in the end,

or maybe 1 for 3. I think Brant Rowe... He gets one Spacey scene that if you liked him as an actor at the time before all the allegations, he was doing the thing that he was great at, which was like that heavy hyper-intelligence smarm. You know, the John Doe, the Kaiser Soze at the end, the kind of like, I will explain to you why I'm the best.

Like he had a knack for that kind of thing. So he made a lot of sense as Lex at that time, but he really only gets to do that one scene on the boat with Lois. And even the rest of the movie, like they kind of redefine what kind of character he is because he goes to prison and then he gets out. So he has to be kind of like more of a con artist

instead of a genius. Yeah, he's dressed up and using Southern accents and doing all that stuff like that. It's like that's stuff for Lex Luthor's minions to do. I'm sure there's a little bit of that for Lex, but it's like, it's not... The movie just, it's made, it's nostalgia porn by someone who so loves the character that they're hugging Superman so tight that they're squeezing all of the life out of it and it just does not work in any way shape or form. Not a bit.

Like it just it even at the end when Brandon Routh who this is no diss to him it's like one of his very early movie roles. I'm sure that, you know, I read a story that says he sits down with a Bryan Singer and the coffee being over on Sunset and Bryan, he stands up and Bryan Singer goes, oh my God, he just kept going up and up and up and up. This is my Superman.

This guy probably calls home and everything is the, the time of his life, the, of a lifetime, the role of a lifetime. So I'm not trying to get at a young guy that was doing that, but like the end of the movie, he flies, he's flying, right? And he does the Christopher Reeve, look left, look right. Yeah. And then look at the camera. Don't do that.

That's not, you can't do that. Fuck, I'm just being for real. Like you, you, that, we don't want to see that from you. But that's what he was cast to do. You know, like, it's- You're right. It's so clear they're putting him in that costume, and even Spacey in the Hackman costume, I think, to a degree.

And it's not, the movie just in no way was fun. It didn't tell me anything new about Superman. There's a couple of things between Superman and Lois where I go, oh man, how hurt must she have been when he's off in space for five years? But even that doesn't make sense. I get that nobody fucking knows that Superman is Clark Kent because of the hypno glasses,

but if Superman is gone for five years and Clark Kent is gone for five years, Superman is Clark Kent. It just doesn't make, the whole fucking thing doesn't make any sense. Yeah Sorry That's the largest problem with the movie is that it's completely like unsustainable from a very basic plot premise In addition to being boring, which is a sin in a Superman movie. Kate Bosworth

Is could not be more wrong. She was young. Could not be more wrong for the part. 22 years old. I mean, it also just doesn't have it, and certainly doesn't have Lois. Like, just no Lois energy whatsoever in Camp Osworth. This will be an interesting showdown to me between that movie and the next movie we're going to talk about. Man of Steel. I shared this with you on the House of R episode. I really hate this movie. But I think I might respect it more than I respect Superman Returns.

So, Chris Ryan and I saw this movie together. We were working at Granland at the time. We went to a Saturday matinee. And we were like, sure. I liked 300. I'm ready for a new Superman. I don't really remember having any feelings toward Superman Returns. This movie is produced by Christopher Nolan. So we definitely were huge fans of The Dark Knight and thought that that portended something exciting. And I was angry at the end of this movie. And I don't, there are not a lot of movies that have made me angry in my life. Maybe vexed, you pointed to my existential crises over the years.

Sure. But the, like, profound misunderstanding of the character that I thought was elemental to this telling made me mad. So, I know that I... that was a stronger reaction than some people had. The movie was ultimately considered a disappointment, both creatively and box office wise, but not like a fiasco or anything like that. They made sequels to this movie.

Where do you stand on Man of Steel? It's bad. I mean, it's just like a weird moody cover of a pop song of a movie. Totally. I don't like it. I agree. I don't think Zack Snyder gets Superman

on a fundamental level to a point that really bums me out to watch it. All that said, I think there's stuff in the first hour that's pretty good. I actually do like the Krypton stuff, like the reinvention of that world and what we see there. I think some of the Costner, like, familial ties, like what you inherit from whom stuff

that a lot of Superman stories deal with, I think it does it fairly well. Maybe like Jonathan Kent being a sociopath aside and being like, don't save that bus full of drowning kids. All that just gets completely washed out once we get into very Snyder territory, which is like, there's a codex that's going to reinvent the Kryptonian race. Zod shows up and the movie just grinds to a complete fucking halt and gets really gross and really unwatchable. And I'm just like so bored watching these two dudes

pump, like punch each other as they're flying through buildings. So it's a Superman for a cynical world. And the thing that Gunn did better than a lot of Superman filmmakers have done recently is he put Superman in his world. He built a world around Superman where Superman makes a ton of sense

and where we can litigate that world with Superman and not litigate Superman in our world. Because that doesn't work. But I would say the gun world is adjacent enough to ours that there's a lot of recognizable qualities. It is different, but there's something there. It is, but any world that James, you're right. Any world that James Gunn creates is a world that is,

he creates the world of comic books to where there are forces like that that we see represented in our world, but also people are willing to believe, people are a little willing, and they are very, the human beings in James Gunn's Superman are almost precocious. They're almost kid-like. And Superman, are you an alien?

You brought here the rest, Lex Luthor's the only one that had the idea of, even the rest of the people in the fucking Pentagon are like, hey, everybody likes this guy. We have no reason to really have the beef with him. Yeah. Right? This one is different. Those people in the Pentagon are the ones that are saying,

we don't trust you. We don't believe you. We're handing you over to Zod. It's legitimately the way it would happen. Just doesn't work, right? Just, it doesn't work in any way, shape or form. If your Superman movie, the best thing in it is Jor-El, you didn't make a good movie.

And by far the best thing in this movie is Russell Crowe as Jor-El because he gets it. He gets it. She's flirting with the version of Lois Lane I can get behind, but it doesn't. I think that character is very badly written. Oh, I don't get it at all. I think she's badly written,

but in the performance of Lois, I kind of get her being an intrepid reporter. It never looks like they've ever had sex or touched each other ever even once. I would say they have like anti-chemist. Two performers I really like and they just have zero chemistry to them. Anti-chemistry.

I liked Michael Shannon and Zod, and I think the movie at least, at least justifies the time. It's a justifiable miss to me. I... It's a justifiable miss. It's a movie where I go, hmm, they don't get it, but there's cool shit happening. Yeah.

And so I can at least justify the miss. So, it's interesting to hear you say that you... And it seems like you also like the Krypton stuff at the beginning justify the miss. So it's interesting to hear you say that you, and it seems like you also like the Krypton stuff at the beginning of the movie. What that has revealed to me, especially his last two movies that he's made, is that he wanted to make a Star Wars movie.

He did not want to make a Superman movie. Oh, this is an alien invasion movie. It is clearly a science fiction film in his eyes. And science fiction is a huge element of Superman, but it's not the essence of Superman. And I find the last hour borderline sociopathic. The idea, because there's something interesting in Superman Returns

where they wanted to make it a 9-11 parable. And there is a moment where Superman falls from the sky that looks like the falling man from 9-11. I feel that that is a purposeful choice. Well, they turn it from subtext to text in Batman V Superman. I'm getting there. Okay.

The idea of destroying Metropolis through a punch fest at the end of this movie is insane material that like no truly thoughtful person would pursue in my opinion. Like I really do not understand how he thought that this is something that would make sense for this character. It kind of just destroys anything else around it that I enjoy a little bit.

I think this is genuinely one of the last great Kevin Costner performances. It's clear to me that he completely rewrote all of this stuff because that conversation that you cited where they're sitting on the back of the truck and teenage Clark is trying to reconcile what he's learning about himself. And his father is trying to guide him away

from sharing the truth. Yeah. Is way more nuanced and thematically deep than anything else in the movie. Now, you could say that Clark is a sociopath because of the way that he is trying to guide his son. But it's at least something. It's at least like something that makes you consider

the character from a different perspective. Everything else, it makes me want to have a punch fest. I think a lot of people focus on like the ending with Zod and specifically like snapping his neck as Zod is trying to laserize this like family or whatever. Getting to that point would be a different conversation if Superman had just single-handedly killed, I don't know, a million people on his own.

Like just by throwing Zod through various buildings and shit. Like, you just miss me with the emotionality of a movie like this and it starts to feel super hollow when all of these people die. All of this unspeakable tragedy happens. All of this destruction. Superman does not care. He is so divorced from the reality of that moment.

And then at the end end I'm supposed to believe that he's so distraught about the decision to kill one Kryptonian or sacrifice this family. Contrasting that with the gun Superman, where this dude is trying to save not just every squirrel and every person in every building, but every Kaiju, that feels like Superman to me. So go back to Superman 2,

when Zod and Ursa and all of them, they're in Manhattan and they're fucking shit up. Throw somebody off, they're doing, and what does Superman scream at Zod? No, like he's like desperate. Yeah. He screams, no, you can't, the people. He's desperate.

Like he doesn't come out of his body a lot, but he is like, you can't hurt people He's like and this Superman I give a fuck right like I don't give a fuck about none of it punch punch punch throw you then he kills out Snaps his neck right from the fucking that is snap snaps the shit. Yeah, fucks this shit up Snaps his neck right in front of the fucking head. He just snaps his shit, fucks his shit up. And we got to the point where I was like,

look, Man of Steel doesn't work, man. I'm saying there was some shit in Man of Steel that was cool to look at. And I think Zack overreacted to what happened in Superman Returns and the fact that Kevin Smith said, you can't have a Superman movie where Superman doesn't punch one thing. And that went everywhere and everybody laughed

because Kevin Smith has a way of analyzing and critiquing these movies that is so sticky with everybody who watches them. Because he's like- Well, he knows the characters inside and out. He's kind of the king of us in a way. But he's also written comics. Right.

So he knows that there are certain kind of like, not rules, but bylaws that you have to understand. And so whenever one transgresses, I mean he's also very positive about movies that I don't think are good, but when one transgresses he's very sharp about identifying how it does that. Right. And so like, Zack went, okay, he's gonna punch everything. They're like, punch, punch everything. I thought Zod was an interesting character. I just think it's because Michael Shannon is so gifted. Yeah, I think I thought Zod was an interesting character in that Zod

didn't see himself as a villain and Michael Shannon during the press run of the movie was like He was very adamant that Zod is not a villain. At the end of the day though It just doesn't work. I think we've identified kind of the two types of Superman villains. You either have the ones he has to punch. The Zods, I guess if you... Like maybe if they had made it to Darkseid and Doomsday and all that. Or you have people like Lex, who put him in situations in which he feels trapped

and can't punch his way out of, right? If it's like you're fighting public opinion, a punch is not going to help you. And it's like those are the two genres that kind of work. And ideally you want some of both. You want Superman to feel trapped within the conflict where he's trying to fight his way out of it physically, but even that has its limits.

And this movie does none of that. You know what? To that point, you know what you want more than anything? You want Superman to care about the damage that he's doing. Totally. He's super fucking powerful. Superior. The top, right?

So even when he's beating the shit out of somebody, or even when he's fighting the Kaiju, he has got to care about the squirrel. Yes. He has to care about the squirrel. And this Superman, at least at the beginning, I do have a take, at least at the beginning, just didn't care about the squirrels or the people.

There's a funny thing that happens in this movie. We're spending a lot of time on Man of Steel. I also hadn't seen this since it, no, I think maybe I watched it before the Snyder cut. But I haven't seen this movie very much. But the seasons needle drop, the Chris Cornell song, when he's emerging from the Fisherman's Wharf, which is a very...

Superman does care about two things. Punching Zod and the greatest catch of crap. And grunge music. And this is the Gen X Superman. This is the only Gen X Superman that we're ever gonna get. Even though James Gunn and Zack Snyder are very similar in age. Zack Snyder is basically making, or James Gunn is basically making like the 1959 Superman. A much more optimistic Superman.

And this is one that is bumping the single soundtrack. And that's just a weird choice for Superman. Okay, the next movie in this story is Batman vs Superman, Dawn of Justice. Now, I think this movie is not as bad as Man of Steel, has a laughable conclusion, but there are elements of it that I enjoy, in part because I think Ben Affleck is actually quite well cast as Batman. Yeah.

And he's actually one of the better Batmans that we've had. And I, God, I wish he had a different filmmaker. Maybe himself making a Batman movie. Yeah. Cause his like combination of the perception of perfection, but the kind of like corrosive insecurity that is definitional to the Affleck movie star persona is so right for Bruce Wayne.

And he gets there sometimes, and then other times, this becomes a movie about, like, kryptonite spears and whatnot, and it loses me completely. What do you think about this one? I think it's pretty embarrassing. Like, I think it's a pretty embarrassing movie. And frankly, in terms of what's more embarrassing, the Martha versus Superman did 9-11.

Like, that's a heavyweight bout Was a great way into getting Batman into this movie though was that like having Bruce like look around the destruction I was like, okay Yeah, that kind of this kind of makes sense to pit them against each other So I gotta say that cuz when I went back and watched it I only watched the ultimate cut of this movie and I'm gonna talk about the ultimate cut a little bit. But when you go back, if you want to make Batman hate Superman, then watching him watch his family die again,

like all of the people with you, obviously, like says that, all of the people that work at Wayne Metropolis or whatever, watching him have to watch them die again and like die in his arms, that is an incredible story choice. I guess first follow up, does Bruce Wayne or Batman ever give a shit about a Wayne tech employee who's not Lucius Fox?

He just doesn't care about the people who work for him. He never shows up. He doesn't even show up to the meetings. Like, well, does he even know these people? So maybe that Bruce Wayne, this Bruce Wayne maybe he's a little bit more on top of things. I mean, he took a helicopter to Metropolis

just to be in the middle of the shit. He didn't bring none of his tech with him. He didn't bring the Batmobile. Yeah, just wearing that three piece suit. Yeah, I know he wasn't quite Batman. He becomes Batman again because this happens. So he hasn't been being Batman, but he doesn't bring anything with him that could have actually helped.

He just goes in there to get to people. What's your perspective? This is kind of a bigger conversation, probably something you guys have talked about over the years on this show too, but evolution versus canon breaking. Like I find the Zack Snyder movies to be very much these like rejections of clear understandings of how these characters operate.

I'm not in theory against that. I think if they're done a little bit more creatively, I could get on board with it. Some movies evolve the characters. To me, the gun version is an evolution of how we understand Superman. You're smirking like you have a dangerous secret you're about to reveal. This is my last Jedi thing. Oh yeah. Here we go.

This is it. You brought this upon us. Yeah I did. Okay. You teased us with this over the weekend. So I think Man of Steel and The Last Jedi are kind of like the same movie. Uh huh. First of all, fuck you.

When I say the last Man of man of steel, I mean, Snyder's version of this stuff, right? So to me, Superman snapping Zod's neck is essentially Luke throwing his lightsaber. It's something to where you go, we're fucking with a new Luke. We're fucking with a, this is different. fucking with a new Luke. This is different. There is a difference to me though.

Give it to me. That's the eighth Star Wars film. Okay. Maybe the ninth Star Wars film. Right. This is the first Superman movie. Well no, it's the first, it's the point taken, it's the first Zack Snyder Superman movie. But it's the first movie starring this Kal-El.

I get it, but it is something. It's not a character's evolution or change. It is the first time we see them. Well, the reason why I would come I would still defend this is because we don't watch Skywalker change. True. So when he does that, we're just like, oh shit. And then for the rest of the movie what I was asking for which Last Jedi people, by the way, I're just like, oh shit. And then for the rest of the movie, what I was asking for, which Last Jedi people, by the way, I like Last Jedi, I just don't like Luke Skywalker in Last Jedi. Don't at me. But what the people that are Luke Piers wanted was them to explain that move and the way

he's looking at things. And to me, they never get there. I don't give a fuck what nobody says. We don't go from, the Luke Skywalker that exists in a world where I'm willing to put the safety and security of the galaxy on the line to save my friends to my... I mean, yeah, like Obi-Wan would never do that. Yoda would never do that.

The people who taught him would never do something like that. All I'm saying is that... All I'm saying is... Forget about them. All I'm saying is that he's willing to do that, right? And then his sister is in trouble, and he's somewhere on an island not even caring. So here's an interesting question for you

in the aftermath of that theory. Is there a perfect overlap, 100% to 100% of last Jedi haters and Man of Steel defenders? Probably. And what does that tell you? That I'm on the wrong side of history. But this is what I'll say about this Superman. This Superman was an attempt to me to rebuild the character in a world that is rejecting him.

Yeah. And that doesn't work. Like that doesn't work. Like that doesn't work. Why in the midst of the Obama era was that the Zack Snyder movie? Isn't that a, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody who will fire back with some political rhetoric about why that was the case, but seems odd.

To be honest, there was one Zack Snyder movie. Like the guy's got one move. He is, Mikhail bridges off the dribble, taking a pull up jumper. It's the same thing every single time. So why would we expect something different from him I think is the question. You please not slander Mikhail Bridges. For God's sake. We just went to the Eastern Conference finals. Easy score. I'm still waiting for him to take a layup.

Just take the shackles off of...let them cook. Okay look, it doesn't work for Superman. Let's just do it right here on the pod. Mikhail Bridges, Mitchell Robinson for LeBron. For LeBron, I'll do it. Yes or no, you'll do it. I'll take it. Okay, and will you do it? I'm not involved.

But as, is Adam Silver, I will sign the paper. So it doesn't work for Superman, but it works for Batman to me. Does it? It doesn't work for Superman, but it works for Batman. It's more interesting to me. It works for Batman, it works for Batman. It's more interesting to me. It works for Batman. It works for Batman.

Batman being somebody that is hyper cynical, Batman being someone that admits to Alfred, look, we're criminals. The shit that we're doing, the shit that we've already done. The shit that we've already done is criminal, so you can't really moralize with me. Batman using all of these different sort of extrajudicial ways to get to something that he

believes to be true, right? To me, all of that works. And he understands the way Batman fucking fights. I'm sorry, that scene is breathtaking. He gets the way Batman would be. Except it's the fact that Batman kills a bunch of people. I kind of sort of agree with that. The one thing that I'll say is, I think we have a little bit more flexibility in terms of how we understand a portrayal of Batman now, because we've had six movie Batmans. This was the third Superman. Fair point. And so Superman was more ingrained expectation wise

in terms of what he stood for and what he stands for. And maybe it's because he's also kind of a character of absolutes and Batman's a vigilante. And so our perception of vigilantism is different than truth, justice, and the American way. I will say it because I don't wanna, the fact that Batman is using guns, like, you know, and killing people,

is a huge departure for the character. So I don't wanna underscore that. There are similarities there, but I just feel like Ben Affleck really worked. Do you think Ben Affleck watched B.E.T. uncut? Probably. He was locked in? Probably did.

He probably did. From what I know about him, he probably liked that type of shit. But look, I will say this. This movie doesn't make any sense at all, unless you watch the ultimate cut. The ultimate cut is 30 minutes longer, and I would say maybe worse, just because it's 30 minutes.

I'm just trying. Like, the worst thing a bad movie can be is longer. No, but like, Rob, you're about to piss me off. I tried, man, it's so bad. The ultimate cut actually has a story that makes sense. What happens in this movie, the one that was released, doesn't even make narrative sense. There's not a this happened and this happened.

They cut so much out of the film. Why did they do that? I'm not sure. Just too long. Like they cut so much, because the ultimate cuts like three hours. They cut so much out of the film that from a story standpoint,

the things that are happening don't make sense. So I prefer the ultimate cut. The Martha conclusion is heinous. It is terrible. It is abominable. From a story standpoint, the things that are happening don't make sense. So I prefer the ultimate cut. The Martha conclusion is heinous. It is terrible. It is abominable. Justice League. Now this is a movie that Zack Snyder had to step away from and that Joss Whedon completed.

And then some years later, I believe four years later, Zack Snyder returned to and reshot a lot of new material, created a lot of CGI mess, and we experienced that movie during the pandemic. It was nominally known as the Snyder Cut online, but is actually officially called Zack Snyder's Justice League. So this is two movies in one conversation, not dissimilar from Superman 2,

which we didn't really get in the weeds too much of the differentiation between Superman 2 and the Donner Cut. There's a big difference between the Justice League movie and Zack Snyder's Justice League. I've only seen Zack Snyder's Justice League one time. I did not revisit it for this podcast. And when I was watching it, it was on a live watch along on this podcast, which is an insane thing we did during COVID.

For all four hours. For all four hours. What the fuck I'm talking about? I think, I want to say Amanda was pregnant when we were doing it. So that was- That's a war crime to do to a pregnant person. I'm sorry.

There were no hazard pay involved. And I actually thought it was kind of fun. Very stupid and fun. Justice League, atrocious. Yeah. I mean, look, the Snyder Cut's much better. It's still a lot of watching a CGI monstrosity go around collecting boxes

and then having Zoom calls with a wall. And I'm just not intrigued by that part of the story. And that's an hour of it. That's one of four hours. So. Kieran Hines did a lot of voice work for this film. He really tried.

They called him back. I'm sure he was in the booth for a really long time. Like the first one I would argue is maybe, I don't know, like in the running for the worst movie of its scale ever made. Like the original Weed and Cut Justice League is so bad. Incoherent. The Snyder Cut is significantly better,

but I don't know that it rises to the level of like good for me per se. The Snyder Cut is way better. The original movie was legitimately, it legitimately thrust me into a mini depression, like in the theaters. I was like bummed out. I was like, man, you mean to tell me

they didn't put Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman together in a movie and I can't like it? Like what am I doing? Like what is going on? This fucking sucks. And then I got my hopes up for the Snyder Cut, and it is better, and it is better. I wonder, because I've watched it twice.

I watched it when it came out, and then I watched it again, in totality twice. I've watched different parts of it at different times. I wonder if part of the fact that I liked the Snyder Cut so much better, if I've like tricked myself into that. If I've tricked myself into believing, hey, this is a market step up from the other one. Or if it's just the fact that it, you know, if the movie just really is not doing too

much more. I think it's an interesting, the one thing that is interesting to me about it, and again I haven't revisited, but it's basically high fantasy inside of a superhero movie, which is very, you know, only really Thor does that in Marvel, and it's a hard thing to pull off. And I do think it is kind of, the CGI is kind of ugly, but I kind of liked what he was trying to do, which is like, this is more like the Ridley Scott movie legend than it is a Justice League movie.

And then you have that crazy coda of like Batman's nightmare, which is another thing that I was like, if this was a whole movie, this would have been interesting. And he had some ideas that he was trying to get out before he got out of this whole superhero complex. It doesn't really totally work, but I like it a lot more than what he had done previously in the series. Well, you mentioned him wanting to make Man of Steel

into a Star Wars movie or a sci-fi movie. He just straight up made this into Lord of the Rings. It was like the humans and the Atlanteans and the Amazons all have one box. It's like straight rings of power, like repurposed in a way that is not the worst idea I've ever heard. And I have to admit, the Nightmare Shift does work on me. Me too, I liked it.

I am predisposed to a like post-apocalyptic alternate timeline in which half the heroes died kind of storytelling. Like that really speaks to me for some reason. And so which half the heroes died kind of storytelling. That really speaks to me for some reason. And so I thought that stuff was kind of good. He should have just made it in the Justice movie. They should have had somebody make a classic Superman, right? And Zack Snyder should have, and maybe still should,

have a complete injustice universe. I am for, right now, Guns DCU, taking Superman where it is right now, but Snyder getting the chance to explore his evil Superman in a whole injustice Superman arc, right? Cause that stuff was really, really fun. Kalika loves it. She calls him Batman in a trench coat.

Like, when it like, when it like. I think what I'm saying, Batman the Flasher, like, he's just straight up ready to go. I think there's two versions of the phrase what is going on here while watching a Zack Snyder movie. One of them is, this is abominable and should be destroyed. What is going on here? And then the other one is what is going on here?

I remember watching 300 for the first time and thinking, what is going on here. And then the other one is, what is going on here? I remember watching 300 for the first time and thinking, what is going on? I've not quite seen a Swords and Sandals epic that looks and feels like this. And that movie is not perfect by any means, but it's kind of cool. And it felt very novel at the time. And the last 20 minutes of this movie also has a like,

huh, so you could have done this. Right, which completely fits your sensibility. Yeah. Which completely fits the high testosterone way that you like to tell movies. You get to take Superman, Lois wouldn't be in it, because she would be dead. Yeah.

But you get to- Post-apocalyptic Justice League. Right, you get to do your entire deal. And we just never got there. And maybe, you know, Jared Leto's Joker gets to cook a little bit more. He's in there. You would love that. I didn't mind it.

And then, of course, there's the David Corn sweat era from 2025. It's the most recent Superman, which we've seen and we all like. Yeah. It feels roundly liked. Unusual to have a movie like this where most people, non-Ben Shapiro class are like, I like it. He is Superman. Guns, one job was to make us believe

that Superman is Superman, and that guy is Superman. That world is Metropolis. That's Lex Luthor. That's one of the best. Of all the people who nearly get to the original Superman levels of portraying their character, Rachel Brosnahan, she might be able to snatch Lois Lane. I think she might.

Given enough time, I think she might. She might be able to snatch Lois Lane. Time will tell. Margot Kidder in one is unreal. I get it. Even in two as well. I get it, but like, Rachel is doing something with Lois that is,

she's sexy, she's inquisitive, she's inquisitive, she's strong, she's resolute, she gets her hands dirty a little bit. She, the more I watch the movie, and I've seen it like three times, the more I watch the movie, she might be able to snatch the crown. I think she, watching all these movies in such close succession makes you really appreciate some of like the architectural stuff that's happening in

the new Superman movie. One of which is that, that like Lois is challenging Clark and Superman. And also like even the things in the movie that you may not love as much, like the Justice Gang, I think your mileage will vary, their presence in the movie not only gives you a way to resolve some of the final conflict stuff in the third act, but gets you the levity of the gun style of humor, but Superman doesn't have to crack the jokes.

Like, he gets to be earnest about what he wants and how important saving people is to him. Everyone else gets to make the jokes. Everyone else gets to challenge him. And I think Superman kind of works best as a character in contrast. Like you need those opposition points. There's a reason why Batman and Superman historically work so well together.

And this movie kind of gets that. Like it doesn't, in doing so, it holds back a little bit of Superman where you could, I think you can fairly argue he should just be in it more. I also am fine coming out of a Superman movie being like, I want more of that Superman. I want to see David Corman on screen as Superman again.

Superman is the ultimate straight man. He's the ultimate straight man. Everybody else has to, he reacts to sexiness. That's why I was so uncomfortable seeing him be sexy to Lana Lane. Like, we have to see Superman react to sexiness. We have to see him react to it. We see Superman react to these things

and we see how strident he is. We see that interact with the world. I mean, if Eneto Tull in 1984 appeared before you, what would you do? Who among us? Yeah, he ate dog food for her. He enjoyed it. That's how he was trying to get to it.

He quite liked it. I forgot about it. He was going back for more. Yeah, he dug in. Yeah, a lot of protein in there. I one presumes. I don't eat dog food. I was about to say Sean. Thanks for putting that down. I was like, what was happening? Please don't clip that Jack. What was happening pre-Grandland? How bad were things? It was a struggle. I will admit. We never got that bad. Alright, we gotta rank these movies. You guys did a lot of work preparing for this episode and I want to say I appreciate you.

I know it's not that hard to watch a Superman movie, but some of these movies suck. They're more bad ones than good ones. Unfortunately so. Let's work backwards. What is the worst one? I think it's the original Justice League. I would tend to agree. Really? Yeah.

What's your argument? I got Superman Returns. Ooh. I would watch the original Justice League, like any day of the week over Superman Returns. I never want to watch Superman Returns again. I don't know why, the movie just, there's one cool scene where he gets shot in the eye.

And then that's pretty much it, dawg. Superman Returns is like eating a bland cracker to me, which is not terrible. I could go so many ways right there, go ahead. Don't play that game with me, sir, on my show. Don't race me, Van Lee. I think I did that in college one time, but. You race- on my show. Don't race me, Van Lee. I think I did that in college one time, but... You...

Jesus Christ. You ate a Superman? You ate a... Oh, you ate a... I see. A bland cracker. Alright. Experimenting. We're going to pivot right out of that one. Back into... To me, like Justice League, and to some extent...

Like Man of Steel is like taking a bite out of poison ivy Okay, or like the body would reject it and I would be ill for weeks. Okay Justice League is like eating what I usually call black licorice something that just like mmm like get that out of my mouth I don't like that taste so Some for some people it's cilantro. You know, that's a thing that you're like, ah, it's soapy. I can't yeah, I don't want it Oh, okay, you're mad because the licorice is black and not red, is that what you're saying? What are you reflecting on?

Just say it. We're all friends here. No, no, no. So you guys want, you think Justice League is the worst one? I do. I hate Man of Steel the most, Justice League is unwatchable to me. Okay.

All right, I want it to be Superman Returns, I like, yes. Superman Returns can go in the next slot. Perfect. At 10. Okay. Um, all right. I want it to be Superman returns. I like, yes. I'll, I'll Superman returns can go in the next slot. Perfect. At 10. Perfect. Perfect. Okay, cool. I don't mind it. Now to me, there's a, there's a, there's an interesting conversation here among man of steel, Batman versus Superman, Superman four. There's a lot of sentimentality for Superman four here on this podcast.

So it is widely considered bad. Just let you know, in my list, I have Superman 4 ranked second to last, even though you do. Yeah. Why? You love this movie. Because I'm being objective. You're not, though. That's not what this is. Then the movie would be like third.

So I can't make the argument. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because it's like, you know, You're not though. That's not what this is. It then the movie would be like there Cuz it's like, you know, there have been guys that have been Saints that I've really liked our guys that have played for LSU There was a guy a DB for LSU named Demetrius hook fin and he couldn't fucking cover But I defended Demetrius hook fin for the entire time Yeah, tiger cuz I used like the fact that he would blow somebody up. Yeah, like a nuclear man. Like, yeah. So I can watch this movie and say that I really... It speaks to me. But when you're looking at it, it's... The scenes are bursting out of the film.

But I only want to know what speaks to you. Look, if you let me be me... What are we doing here if not letting Van be Van? If you let me be me in some of these movies, I'll make arguments for all kinds of stuff, but I'm trying... We're on the big picture here. Okay. Alright? Indeed.

We're on the big picture here, so I'm trying to say... The Superman of movie podcasts. I'm looking at this... Talk your shit. That's what I like to hear. But I'm looking at this and going, yeah, it's probably in the lower third for sure of Superman movies if I'm just looking at it from quality and all that stuff. Anyway.

Where are you at on Marques Colston, Pride of Hofstra? Love him. He was great, right? He was the man. He was the man. He was the man, big possession receiver when we were kind of getting back to it. I was looking at his Wikipedia just now

thinking of Saints players, I always remember Marques because he went to Hofstra, which is near where I grew up. And it said he was widely considered one of, if not the greatest NFL players to never be selected to a Pro Bowl or an All-Pro team. How about that? It is kind of interesting. Anyway, moving on. I would say... I would say Man of Steel 9 Super, no.

You're not letting Man of Steel go into the second tier. I'm just putting that out there. Oh, it's right here with these next movies. I have it in the middle. Okay, no, we're not disallowing that. I have it in the middle. On what grounds? I have it in the middle.

No, I think it's nine. I think Batman v Superman is eight. And I think- Wait, what's at 10? We said Justice League? Oh, sorry, we got to do 10. Superman Returns. Superman Returns.

Oh, Superman Returns. You want to do Superman Returns? Yeah, we'll do Superman Returns. So we'll do Justice League, then Superman Returns, then Man of Steel. Okay. Then Batman vs Superman, because of Batfleck. Then Superman 4. I think. So if you give me that, I'll take, I will take the victory of Superman 4 being that

high up. I will take that victory. I'm letting you know, you guys are going to get fucking crushed for the Man of Steel thing. I don't give a shit. It's a bad movie. I don't really don't care. First of all, I was hating on crypto on House of R. Yeah, you can't do that. And they just came for me. First of all, Jomi just like cut that and was like,

we're putting it on the internet immediately. That's, that's bad. I see you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's him getting his shit. You got your head. I clocked that immediately too. That's him, Joe Mead, getting his revenge. And I don't give a damn about the Man of Steel people. I really don't. I've clearly proven correct if you look at the state of Zack Snyder's filmography right now.

Okay. Shit. He's a talented filmmaker. I wish he was making different movies. Yeah, Army of the Devil, okay. Okay, so where are we at? So where are we at then? Justice League, Superman Returns, Man of Steel,

Batman v Superman, Superman 4. Is Superman 4 or Zack Snyder's Justice League? What's going in the sixth spot? Zack Snyder's Justice League, the Snyder cut's better than Superman 4. I'm willing to give it to Zack Snyder's Justice League. On ambition, on scale, it is reaching for something that I think is cool.

I don't think it gets there. I'm a little allergic to just his style of action filmmaking, to be honest with you. But I admire what he's trying for. In a way that I'm not sure Superman 4's trying for a lot other than Christopher Reeve trying to get the word out about disarmament. Is James Gunn's Superman a superior film to Superman 3?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So Superman 3 would be next. Yeah. You guys all getting this at home? Thumbs up. This is where it gets, this is where it gets crazy.

I have an argument for, so we're at number five or number four? Number four is the Donner Cut. Interesting. So you think Superman 2 is superior to the Donner Cut? I do. Can you make the case? One, it's an actual movie. I would say like there are a lot of good component parts to the Donner Cut.

It's not. It wasn't made as a movie, it doesn't stand as a movie as a result. It's just not as cohesive. Two, I think the Lois and Clark stuff in the Lester Cut is actually a lot better. And that's not just like nobody's pointing a gun at anybody or nobody's jumping out of a window per se. It's funnier, it's sharper.

I think their scenes together are stronger. And I'm here for that chemistry. The Reeve-Kitter chemistry is really important to me. Interesting take. I think it's so much lighter on its feet and Christopher Reeve is so funny in these movies when they let him be funny. And I think the Donner version cuts into a self-seriousness

that is almost Zack Snyder-y. The scene where he's in the Fortress of Solitude doing the, like, haven't I done enough for humanity speech? My guy, you've been Superman for like four days. Like straight up, you just became Superman. And he's like, haven't I done enough doing one thing and this and really like the ultimate sin. He did save the entire state of California.

He did. And that was pretty impressive. And he did it by winding back time by flying around the world. And guess what? He did it again. Again, at the end of Superman, in the Donner Cut. At the end of Superman 2, the Donner Cut. That's the biggest thing on the Donner Cut. It's inexcusable to just recycle the ending. And the ending of the Lester Cut is not good either,

but it's not that. So let's- Strong case. I say so. Let's compare the exact scenes to one another, okay? In the Lester cut, Lois finds out about Superman being Superman because he burns his hand in the whatever. And he's not burned.

In the Donner cut, you have the scene of Superman, they're dressed up and she shoots him. Yeah. Or with the blanks. With the blanks. Which scene is more effective to you? I actually like the Lester Cut version of like there's a part of Clark that wants to tell her.

And he's like, he trips over a fucking pink bear rug, but he doesn't trip over a bear rug. There's just a part of him that wants to have that conversation. I have to disagree. I think the Donner Cut version is magic. I think the Donner Cut, I think that version works better. I love that. I think that-

The gunshot is so exciting. Yeah. It is exciting. There are a lot of like, whoa moments in the Donner Cut. And I think overall, like, so Lois as a character in the Donner Cut is just so much sharper. Like she is on it from the jump. They're like, this dude is Superman.

I just drew the glasses in my newspaper. Why are we even arguing about this? Niagara Falls, the whole thing. And I respect like how that character is portrayed in the Donner Cut, but as a result, their scenes together are so much more adversarial in a way that I don't think it's always that effective, because I think it's rejiggered. If he had been able to shoot the whole movie as he intended from the start,

I think it would probably be the better movie. But he didn't. The one scene that the lesser cut has over the Donner cut is the way Zod says my favorite line. It's like why, like why would you, you know, like why would you say this to me when I know you I will kill you for it? If you watch the Donner cut, the lesser cut he goes, why would you say this to me when you know I will kill you for it? He's kind of incredulous and it's more comedic. In the lesser,, in the Donner Cut, he goes, why would you say this to me when you know

I will kill you for it? It is not as funny. The scenes are, he actually delivers the line differently. That's the only thing that to me, the Lester Cut, I just want an excuse to put those two scenes in the show. There's a part of the Lester's odd that's like kind of bored and annoyed that I like. Right, he's very, very to the thing.

And the other guy is like. A rage monster, honestly. He's very... That I like. Right, he's very, very to the thing. And the other guy is like... A rage monster, honestly. He's very mad. I personally prefer the Zod and the Donner cut, and I also think... But you're also a rage monster. As we are seeing here on this episode today. Terrence, what Terrence Stamp brings to Superman

to either cut is... He's the man. Is unbelievable to me. Maybe you could say, certainly Michael Shannon played the character again and brought something very specific, but that fine grain combination of British upscale arrogance, a kind of very entrancing, bizarre beauty. You know, he's a historically like a very handsome, like attractive swinging sixties actor,

but getting into his forties and fifties, that's a very, we don't see that look too often now. The like, the full beard and mustache that is manicured in such a way to make him seem like an evil magician. He looks Kryptonian. He looks like a guy from, a evil guy from another realm.

He's fantastic. He holds those moviesian. He looks like a guy from a evil guy from another realm. He's he's fantastic. He holds those movies together in so many ways. Uh, I I think you made a strong enough case. I don't really agree with it, but I also we're giving each other things here. I appreciate it. Thank you. I know what you have to say. Now, do you think that.

So the Donner cut would go forward. Do you think that the Lester cut is superior to James Gunn's Superman? This one is like a tie for me. And this is where I would open up the negotiation a little bit. I think it says a lot that this new movie is already in this pantheon. I don't think it's as good as Superman 2. It's not. That's fine.

So it's not. But that's no knock to this movie. Yeah. I never was going to put it at two. Superman the movie is, Superman the movie is gonna be at number one for me, it is. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of debate on that. Superman two is probably better.

Better than the original? Then what are we making it number one then? Okay, so let me tell you. Now, as a... you guys have to understand what I'm doing here. Okay. Please focus. We're ranking the movies. I'm not ranking the movies strictly...

This is what it's like in the Jets' draft room every year, by the way. This is their war room, and this is why we keep fucking up. I'm not ranking the movies strictly on quality. Why not? Because I think that's, I think honestly that's too subjective. Art is subjective, Van. I know.

That's why if you're going to rank something, then you rank it across a litany of different criteria and not just the thing that you like them on. I just fundamentally disagree with this. I mean, I'm just being for real that you like them on. I just fundamentally disagree with this. I mean, I'm just being for real. In the fiber of my being disagree with this. I just, I just, you don't, because if- It's been too long since I've seen you two together like this.

You like something, I like something. You have a bunch of different inputs. Yes. I have a bunch of different inputs. I can recognize that something is the best and I don't like it as much. What's more arrogant? Thinking you have the power to see objectively

or only using your own subjective point of view to evaluate it? I would argue that subjectivity is all we got. Especially when it comes to something like a movie or a piece of music. Spoken like a real fake news journalist. This is it. So when I watch Superman 2, man, the movie has respect.

The movie has Lex is in this. Yeah. And it has the super criminals, right? It has Zod in them. There's more happening there. Lois and Superman, what's going on between them is just way, way more interesting. The first one is delightful. and it's very formative.

And it's like, oh my God, they're flying. And it's like all of that. She's in trouble. She is like another little nemesis to me. Superman loses his powers. He has to use his brain to reverse the fucking thing. There's just so much happening in Superman 2 that if I look at it as a movie,

it's better than the original. The original is, it's a more important film, it's the number one film, but the sequel is better. It's better. The original one's better. It is better. As I was watching Superman 2, I did have the thought and the Donner cut. There's one thing in particular I need Van's opinion on, which is Superman in the Lester

Cut getting together with Lois after losing his powers. Superman in the Donner Cut fully empowered Superman. How are you feeling about the Clark-Lois Superman dynamic, physiologically speaking? You know, like, what do you think is the, like, how realistic is this whole situation? I like it powered up. You do? Yeah, just be, think is the, like, how realistic is this whole situation? I like it powered up. You do? Yeah, just be, you know, he can be gentle. Like, he don't move around fast,

going crazy, doing everything else. You see him running to his mom, he know how to control it. He can control it. There is the faded, long running question of the super sperm. Sure. I mean, speaking of Kevin Smith, like, you know.

Yeah, the super sperm, I mean, I don't know if you can really control, I don't wanna get super sperm. I mean, I don't know if you can really control, I don't wanna get into the whole thing, but I don't know if you can control what happens, the actual act of it. What do you mean? Well, I don't- What happens?

Well, I don't know if you could control that part, if it's gonna, you know- Seems like an important part. If there's an exit wound or something like that. Like, I don't know if you can control that, but the other stuff, it seems like you should be able to control. It's fine. I liked it. I think it's cool. It's fine. You heard it here first, Van Lathan likes it powered up. I think that this is a fairly simple

Superman 2 Superman the movie. Okay. I'm cool with that. Your passion is beautiful. And- and- You guys back me into a corner. Superman 1 is the clear answer. Yeah, but it just- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- it- I think, you know, the point also, the idea of the way that two ends is just not very satisfactory whereas the way that one ends to me, the first time you see it, is very exciting and very, because it's heartbreaking to watch Lois Tull.

Totally. It is like, it's devastating. As a small kid, I was like, this cannot be happening. So I'm really curious to see where Superman 2025 sets five years from now. We're getting close to five years from the Batman. And here we are on this panel saying, yeah, is it a little overrated now? I think it's pretty great.

Well, I don't know that it's funny, because I said what I said earlier, with The Dark Knight Rises, because I think both movies are aging pretty well. The Batman for me, when I first watched it was like, man, this movie is long, he's walking very slowly. Like there's, you know, he is, he's taking his time, he's treating Alfred like shit.

You can't brew shit. You know what I mean? He's the world's greatest detective, not the world's greatest marathon runner. I get it, but I watch that movie a lot more now. And I think, this is gonna sound stupid, the Penguin reignited my interest in all the other things that are happening, it deepened the world,

and it greased the entry point for me in that movie. Now, man, the end of that movie, there's a lot that happens in that film. Like, that movie goes on and on and on and on. Yeah, it actually kind of has a similar Dark Knight Rises energy to the conclusion where I'm like, why is this fight happening in the rafters of this political convention where there's a flood? Like I have to revisit it.

I will say my version of returning to the movie is just watching the Paul Dano no no no meme over and over again, whenever watching sports. Whenever I'm watching a team I care about, that's what I think of. I feel we've done well. I think so as well. I think we nailed it. I'm going to recite these rankings for us. Number 11, Justice League, directed by Joss Whedon.

Number 10, Superman Returns, which I didn't think going into this exercise, we all would have been so roundly against, and I would have disliked as much as I did, but it's nice to hear that we could at least agree that it doesn't work. Number nine is Man of Steel. Number eight is Batman versus Superman Dawn of Justice. Number seven, Superman For the Quest for Peace.

Number six, Zack Snyder's Justice League, the Snyder Cut. Number five, Superman Three. Number four, Superman Two, The Donner Cut, number five Superman 3, number four Superman 2, the Donner Cut, number three Superman 2025, number two Superman 2, and number one Superman from 1978. What a showing for Superman 3. Just like by default ends up at number five? Pretty good outcome.

It's a pretty good Richard Pryor performance. It's a pretty good Richard Pryor performance. It's a pretty good Richard Pryor performance, and it has some really good moments, man. The Cyborg Sister thing is fucking ridiculous. That's so stupid, bro. It was stupid to me when I was a kid, by the way. Didn't make any sense, but Superman fighting himself. Evil, dirty Superman. Superman oil tanker Superman. Superman hitting on, it's got a lot. Evil, dirty Superman. Superman, oil tanker Superman.

Superman, hitting on, it's got a lot of cool, good stuff. I love when Superman saves Richard Pryor from a pile of rubble by dapping him up. It's like the healing power of dapps. By the way, we didn't tell you about how Pryor got in that movie, which is he just went on like the Dine & Shore show and was like, you guys see Superman?

I love that movie. And then Alexander Salkin was like, we should get Richard Pryor in this movie. It'd be nice if things worked that way still. It's good on this podcast. Van, is there any movie you want to be in? That's very funny that you would say that. Just, guys, stay tuned.

Now look. Whoa. Now that's a tease. Whoa. I'm serious, stay tuned. Now, Pryor is also, we didn't talk that much about Richard Pryor. Him with the skis, Superman's a bad mother.

He's, he is, he adds a lot to the film. Definitely, yeah. He adds a lot to the film. He's really funny. Very funny. I feel pretty good about what we've done here. Now you can find this ranking and all of the rankings on this show on our Letterboxd account,

which is at the big pick. Where's the group chat Letterboxd account, I ask you? We don't have one yet. I gotta get those guys on. Actually, Justin's pretty active on Letterbox. Well, you guys grind so much tape too. I feel like, can you log the tape? It's a great question. We should speak to Letterbox about this.

Does Hornets blazer, like, is that registerable in Letterbox? I don't know, might qualify as a TV program. Where's the, the, the midnight boys? We need a Letterbox. I got my own Letterbox. Do you? I do, I have a Letterbox. I don't think I understand I got my own letterbox. Do you? What? I do. I have a letterbox. I don't think I understand how to use letterbox though.

Did you follow anyone? Well there's no 12 point scale. You followed me? I followed you. It's a 12 point scale. The Midnight Media. That's what I'm saying. Um, explain to people the second April. All the rules of the second April? People are confused. I would say Man of Steel went over the second April.

Like whatever they paid Costner, it was a lot. Like would say Man of Steel went over the second April. Like whatever they paid Costner, it was a lot. They're not going to be able to make any one for one trades for a while. That's why they had to blow it up. Like they ultimately got stuck. I've been trying to explain this to my friends. Like my friends will be like, why are they still? I'm like, bro, nobody has any money to get the second April and all of that.

And they're like, I don't want the NBA no more, man. So, I don't know. It didn't stop the Knicks from signing Gershon Yabaseli. Yeah, huge signing, honestly. I'm pretty excited about that. Is Valetunis going overseas? Depends on if you ask him or ask the Denver Nuggets. I think he would like to go to Europe for a while. Let's see if that happens or not.

Has a take ever taken more of an L than your Jokic take from the early days on the Bill Simmons podcast? That was wrong, man. Look, I'm, look, okay, so let me put this into context real quick. Nah, because I'm probably still wrong. So let me tell you what triggered me about this. Bill said during that time that he thought

that Jokic was as good as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. That's what he said, all right? that he thought that Jokic was as good as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. That's what he said. All right? That's two, three years ago. And I'm like, you can't say that somebody is as good as Magic Johnson or Larry Bird unless they win a bunch of NBA championships, right?

You have to, that has to be a thing. And then Bill outed me for some reason. He was so pissed off that he outed me on Twitter about this whole thing and sicked all the ringer people on me, all big. We on group chats and Bill goes, yo man, Yokel's just, and look, you know what? Now it turns out that Yokel's might be as good

as those guys might be saying. But you couldn't say it then is all I was saying. It was too early. Right, but. Do you as a ball knower agree that he is in league with Magic and Bird? He's one of the best players of all time. It's just a matter of like what you prioritize as far as the titles, the individual production,

all that stuff. What do you prioritize? Yeah, see, don't do that. I'm not a. Hold on, did you see what he just did? Well, I followed up. Don't do that. What did I do?

No, I'm asking, he asked you a question about it he just did? I do don't do that. What I do know I'm asking he asked you a question About and you were like depends depends depends. Who do you think is better? I like is subjective be subjective Like who do you think is better yeah bird Here's the answer I wasn't born when they were in their prime. I'm not qualified to answer that question. Well, it's at least a bit unfair. If you want me to compare Jokic to LeBron, I can do that. Who's better? LeBron's better.

LeBron's better than Jokic? Yes. He's a better player? Yeah. If you want me to compare like Stefan Jokic, we can have that conversation, but like, I don't feel qualified to get into the Kareems and the Larrys and the Magics in incredible detail.

Way to wriggle out. This is what I'll say. Like, Jokic also. Yabu Sele is better than all of them. Yogic, Yogic, all time great, all time great. I think the question that really, that you guys should do on group chat, that really gets the people going,

is Yogic better than Shaq all time. I heard you addressing this. I do like that one. That's a good- It's a good conversation. That's a good one. Yeah. Cause that gets the group chat,

my group chat, my group chat, my friends on fire. Cause one of my boys, Ryan, our most dedicated basketball knowledge guy, he says it's over, he says, yo, cause she's better. And everybody else just goes nuts. I will say I have still never seen anything though,

like the first six years of Shaq in professional sports. Where I was like, anything could happen at any given moment. The like breaking the backboard and pulling the back, the rim down thing, when that was happening, not just shattering the backboard, which we saw a few times growing up, but him pulling the entire stanchion to the ground. Yeah.

It was like watching Superman play basketball. And then he of course was Steel. He was. Why didn't we rank Steel? We should have put Steel in there. That's a Superman movie. Yeah. I guess it is. I guess it's Superman. How did we get here through meandering at five minutes of NBA talk? We forgot about Steel. Steel would be third overall? Yeah, at least. Okay. Jack, great actor. Yeah. Great actor, dominant player. Very good. Love it. Extremely good rapper. Yeah. I saw him live.

Yokelch can only do one thing and that's basketball. That's a good point. So who's a better human being? Shaquille O'Neal or Nicola Yokelch? I would much rather be Shaq and I think a lot of people know why, but Shaq gets to it. Whatever, let's end the podcast. Yeah, let's end the podcast.

Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Listen to Rob Mahoney on a myriad of podcasts. Whatever you like, one of them. Chad, et cetera. Prestige TV, the Zach Lowe podcast. Yeah, yeah, now and again. Well, what else?

The Bill Simmons podcast from time to time. What else are you getting on these days? I'm coming for Chris's head as the third chair of the big picture. Oh, there we go. Wow. So, wow. Chris, boy, there we go. Wow. So boy There's a little talk on the streets about the CR Mahoney CR you might be what is that doc the Anthony Edwards to

CR's um, you might be the Anthony Edwards to CR's LeBron. I don't even know what that comparison might be the young pup That's pushing the old master Wow I saw some people on the streets of saying that's all I'm saying many people are saying yeah van Lee at the Midnight Boys higher learning The rhymes little podcast listen that episode. It's insane. Yeah, what else? What else prestige TV for the bear for the bears? I'm everywhere. It was like whenever You want to piss people off just put my name in the podcast and just see what they say. That's just definitively not true.

Thanks for listening, watching. Later this week, a new 25 for 25. Oh. It's a movie whose title I will not reveal. Goodbye. Thanks for watching!