The Big Picture - The Top 10 Garbage Cash Movies and ‘Dumb Money’

Episode Date: September 22, 2023

Sean, Amanda, and Chris review ‘Dumb Money,’ Craig Gillespie’s new movie based on the events of the 2021 Wall Street GameStop short (1:00). Then, they craft a new entrant into their running “garbage” genre series—Garbage Cash—and list the 10 most apt entrants into the genre (53:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For all your fantasy football needs, check out the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with me, Danny Kelly, along with Danny Heifetz and Craig Horlbeck. That's the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about garbage cash, a.k.a. trash cash, a.k.a. money movies, a.k.a. financial films. These are movies about the monsters who run the cash flow in this world. The richest man I know is here, Chris Ryan. Call me collateralized Chris.

How are you feeling about the markets right now? Let's just jump right in. It's a rough time, but it's also a good time if you're opportunistic. I was pretty disappointed to find out about NFTs yesterday. It's a rough time, but it's also a good time if you're opportunistic. I was pretty disappointed to find out about NFTs yesterday. You're not liquid. That was a blow. Yeah, it's tough.

How much have you lost in the NFT market? Who can say? I mean, what are we counting them as? Anime characters? What are even the figures anymore? What's the denominations? I'm glad you mentioned that because there's a critical point in the movie that we're going to be talking about today and the other movies that are related to it, Dumb Money, in which a character notes that you can lose money to infinity, that there is a way to lose

money forever and to go into a forever debt. The movie is Dumb Money. It's directed by Craig Gillespie. It is a docudrama that recreates many of the events of the GameStop investing saga. It features some real life figures and it features some inventions, some composites. It's only opening in 200 theaters this week and it will be expanding wide next week. Amanda and I have had a chance to see it. Sierra, you haven't. In solidarity with the rest of the country, the flyover states, I decided not to see this film last night. So I will be adopting a little bit more of a Jiminy Glick kind of persona

during this segment where I'm saying, tell me what this movie's about! Amanda, what was it about for you? What did you think Dumb Money was actually about? Is money stupid in this movie? This was a movie about the internet and also about the more classic people who feel excluded from the financial system making a stand and trying to get their way in and win one for the little guys. And it is told mostly from that perspective, from the perspective of Roaring Kitty? What's his name?

Roaring Kitty. Keith Gill, who was an independent investor who was working as a financial analyst at MassMutual, but was clearly a middle-class guy, played by Paul Dano in this movie. And he was a driving force on our Wall Street bets where CR was camped out for a couple of years there. I did spend a lot of time there. Yeah, I remember. And I kind of want to talk about that, like our relationship to this story versus the story that this movie is telling. Pretty star-studded cast of character actors. You've got America Ferreira, Vincent D'Onofrio as Steve Cohen, a.k.a. the owner of the New York Mets and the leader of Point72, a hedge fund.

Oh, really? I wish that you had sent me a text message with that information. Did you not know that? I knew that, but I didn't put it together while watching because I was watching with, you know, internet mind and not Mets mind. I mean, we can talk about Steve Cohen a little bit. I think he's a fascinating figure in this story. Fucking sports watching right here. But also, you know, Pete Davidson's in the movie. pete davidson's in the movie shailene

woodley is in the movie um anthony ramos it's a pretty packed cast and the film itself really ping-pongs very quickly across all of these different experiences from people who are investing in gamestop to the people who manage all of this massive fortune um at the hedge funds to you know people who work at a gam GameStop and their perspective on what's happening there. As with all Craig Gillespie movies, it's a very fast-moving and loud character piece. That is what he does. He does quick-cutting movies that have very obvious needle drops

that are often very entertaining, but that I historically find pretty shallow. I thought this movie was incredibly watchable and at times a lot of fun. And then by the end of it, I felt like I didn't really learn much and I didn't really feel very deeply aside from really liking Keith Gill, the Paul Dano character. And I think the Paul Dano is wonderful in the movie, does a great job of communicating. I think something that a lot of people in America feel, which is a sense of powerlessness

and confusion and frustration and an attempt to get yourself out of the financial hole that many people find themselves in. It's very good at that. I'm not spoiling anything by revealing that. Aside from that, I thought it was a little caricature-ish, if I'm being honest. What do you think? No, I agree with you. And part of it is just that it is a very wide cast of characters and it is moving very quickly. So no one really gets any room besides the paul

dano character um so they can really only be caricatures it's the other thing where because this is very recent history and very recent internet history when you're telling a story about the internet you just wind up using the internet And there is like, there are a lot of TikTok and YouTube clips. And this is all, if you will remember, set during COVID. I thought this was like a pretty good movie about the COVID world and just like the small details and who's wearing masks and who's not. But, you know, because it's set in a COVID movie, everyone's in a different place. So it's a lot of different pieces being jammed together, very of the internet, which it has to be.

But at some point it's like, no, I want to watch a movie instead of TikTok. That's why I'm here. Which is, I think, something we'll just have to negotiate on and on as the, you know, internet takes over our lives but i i agree that paul dano's character is the is he is the only person that gets any space and really any character development yeah i mean there are two characters in particular in the movie chris one one of your favorites mahala harold yeah you know the star of industry and her girlfriend in college who's played by the great talia riderder, two really

exciting young actors. They have these parts that are like just kind of invention characters or like standing characters for broke kids in debt in college and how they got invested in the GameStop story. You know, I understand why they're there. They're there to provide a perspective that was very relevant to this story. They're not really real people. And the only times when they get to reveal details about their lives, they're kind of in monologue format about like what their dads did and how their dads lost their job in a way that you would never talk to your friend. And so that's the inherent challenge of a movie that is overwhelmed

with information for the audience. I think it's very cleverly constructed where it's communicating what the net worth of each character is every time you meet a new character in the world. And there is something tongue-in-cheek in an amusing way about the actors who are cast as the hedge fund managers. Seth Rogen is Gabe Plotkin, the hedge fund manager who took the biggest bath in this story. And he still bought the Hornets. Is that true? Yes.

Well, his hedge fund, as far as I know, has been liquidated. So that's fascinating. That's where he moved his money. I think Plotkin bought the Hornets from Michael Jordan. And then, of course, you've got Nick Offerman as Ken Griffin, who is really an archvillain in this story, and Steve Cohen, who, you know, just this is the big picture. You know, me and Bob, we work on this show.

Steve Cohen is a big part of our lives on a day-to-day basis. I actually don't think he comes off that bad. No, he doesn't. He really doesn't. He comes off more bemused by this world than anything else, which I find to be fascinating because you can make the case that that is actually more sinister than someone like Ken Griffin, who is a cartoon villain.

Yeah, Ken Griffin's a bad hombre. Yeah. With all due respect. But Cohen is a person who is used as a portrait of the way that money protects money, the way the power protects power, which I think is that's an interesting underlying current in the film that was glossed over a little bit much for me. That some of the movies we'll talk about today I think are quite good at revealing that these structures are impenetrable and will never be destroyed because of the way that someone like Cohen operates. As a side note, do you think that you and I should individually adopt a billionaire to cape for? Oh, as he's caping for Steve Cohen?

Would you say that you're caping for him? He calls him daddy? I have such a complicated relationship. I was going to say, my reading of your parasocial relationship with Steve Cohen at this moment, it doesn't seem extremely positive. Well, the Mets are having a disastrous season.

I don't think that the fans put that at his feet, but I think he came in with a lot of bluster and bravado. It's been three years. He ain't done jack shit. But weren't you tweeting a lot

at the beginning of this season about no one's getting fired and what the hell? Tweeting a lot? Well, and also tweeting at various points over the last couple years uncle steve is here right yeah yeah i i love that he's willing to spend money yeah i think that that's amazing but that's that is you know i think it mirrors some of this story and also it's relevant because the mets owners prior to steve cohen were very cheap

and being in a major market team that generated a lot of revenue, their cheapness was a huge frustration point for a lot of fans. So his willingness to, you know, send $300 million Gabe Plotkin's way or send $300 million the way of the Mets' standing salary is appreciated. You know, I think that these two things are correlated in some ways.

That's right. He's just making content. Who does Gabe Plotkin most closely correlate to on the current Mets roster? If you're probably Max Scherzer. Okay. Who's no longer on the Mets. Who's no longer on the Mets,

but is being paid effectively by the Mets to not be on the Mets. Okay, yeah. And who failed in big spots, just as Gabe Plotkin did. And also, I hate him. I don't see... Bob, is there anything you want to say

about Steve Cohen here? I mean, in relation to this movie, which I also have not seen, I'm in the Chris boat over here with Middle America, like usual, waiting to see it with the crowds, with the people.

You just saw Killers of the Flower Moon yesterday, so you can no longer say shit like that, Bobby. I want to say that when I went yesterday to see Dumb Money, I met a big picture listener. So, you know, some people are out there doing the work, not our producer, Bobby, or the sometimes third chair, Chris Ryan. Seriously, two guys who live in New York and LA. But our listeners, when they can, are there. I think Steve Cohen has brought a Wall Street mentality to baseball for better or for worse. And because of how successful he is in his Wall Street life depicted in this movie, he them like Yankees Dodgers-esque. Okay. That I, based on how you guys are describing it, it seems like he's just kind of like here for the, along for the ride in a way that I think is maybe slightly poisoning the game

of baseball, but also it's okay. I think it's more like, you sound like you're in a hostage video right now. He's positioned in this movie the way I think he hopes to position his baseball team, which is like, he's been in finance for 40 years. So he and he's worth 20 billion dollars. He's the richest owner in professional sports. In sports, though, he hasn't really had any success yet. So he's going to take some shots from the likes of me.

The movie itself is pretty good. You know, it's not it's it's not not bad. It's entertaining. I don't know if it was like deeply informative. It's a story that was widely covered. Yes. And when the story was, just as it was sort of wrapping up,

there were many, many creators who said that they were going to cover this story, you know, make something out of this story. Podcast, TV series, miniseries, films. This is really the only one that has emerged. There's been a couple of docs, but nothing. And I wonder if like, do we need anything else about this? Well, the whole thing

was so on the surface and on reddit and so like deeply covered and also most of us were like at home or just on a screen with nothing else to do except to consume this that there are larger themes this movie like kind of like hints at with the paul dano character and i guess like the the college students i i'd like to give a shout out to america ferreira aka stonk mom um which is just she's a stand-in for amanda was that character based on you she didn't name her favorite billionaire not yet okay i'm but um america ferreira like doing the lord's work again this year and like in a small supporting role as a mom just with just trying to make it work uh yeah well maybe being typecast at this point um it's just a woman who's really working hard i

thought she was good i was worried about her account balance everyone else i was like you know good luck to you but that was the only time where and we're going to talk about these movies and i i do feel like a hallmark of garbage cash is like at some point you need to be like really nervous that someone's going to lose like all of their money and it needs you need to have that feeling in the pit of your stomach and i i had that for her. I wanted her to sell. She didn't. She held the line diamond hands, which I actually did not know about until I wasn't like on Wall Street bets or whatever it was. Chris gave me updates. It was a hugely important thing in my life for 48 hours. You know, like among many things in during COVID where like one night i had my phone propped up

next to my laptop drunk crying watching rizza and dj premiere do a versus competition and i was like this is how i'm gonna spend the rest of my life talking to my friends on text message because i can't see them and then i was over it and i haven't thought about versus since then and the same thing kind of with wall street bets for 48 hours i was like it's important haven't thought about versus since then and the same thing kind of with Wall Street Bets for 48 hours I was like it's important that Mickey Down and Conrad K from industry join us on the pod to discuss Wall Street Bets and GameStop

and then like I literally have not given I mean I think about finance but not in this kind of passionate way no you think about it a lot my favorite part of any watch podcast is when you're like well money used to be cheap and it's not anymore I do I do say that a lot who first told you of any watch podcast is when you're like, well, money used to be cheap and it's not anymore. I do. I do say

that a lot. Who first told you that? Where'd you glean that from? Charlie Munger. I do like watching Warren Buffett videos on YouTube. Okay. Because? Is he your favorite billionaire? No, George Soros is my favorite billionaire.

Oh, boy. That's good. are you ready to give your billionaire yet no i guess let me google billionaires my thing about murdoch retired today yeah you know about munger is like which one so lachlan is the kendall no there's kendall is a combination of james and lachlan okay but lachlan is like james is the of James and Lachlan. Okay, but Lachlan is like... James was the rap guy and Lachlan is like, I'm going to start my own media company. But he may be... Lachlan is the eldest. Yeah, he may not redirect Fox's energies

the way some were hoping. James? Lachlan will, but James intends to. James intends to. Yeah, James' plan. I'm into the arc... He has the job, but he doesn't have the power because the power will be divided

amongst all four equally. And in all likelihood, they can vote Lachlan out of that position of power at Fox News if Elizabeth and James want to reposition the company as more left-leaning,

which is something that they have suggested they would do when their father passes on. Right, right, right, right. Okay. Mackenzie Scott, you know. You're looking at billionaires?

Yeah, no, I'm looking at the Forbes list of billionaires. Is that Jeff Bezos' ex? Yeah. Okay. Who's just given away all of his money and also found love again. So that's like, that's a pretty good. Who's her paramour? I don't know, but I did note that she already, maybe she found love and already got divorced

again. I'm not actually sure, but you know what? It happens. It happens. The Arnaud family seems like they're into some things that I'm interested in. So, just putting that out there. Okay, I'm holding tight to Steve Cohen. Did they just buy CAA?

No, no, no, That's the Pinos. So the Pino is Salma Hayek, Pino's husband, and they own Kering, which does own a lot of fashion brands, but the Arnos are the Louis Vuitton conglomerate. Have we confirmed that Pino saw Magic Mike 3? No, we haven't. I mean, it is clearly about him directly. Yeah. Would you be able to come back from that? I think he's like, I'm married to Salma Hayek, so it's all good.

Yeah. And I'm a billionaire. So I've got $7 billion. Yeah. And now I own CAA. Would you want to own CAA? I think it would be hilarious. I think it would be an incredible bit, but I don't know that I would have really the wherewithal.

I don't have the time. I'm on all these pods. Yeah. Well, you're here. I just want you guys to know that the Murdochs are 99 right now on this list of billionaires. They're almost not in the top 100. Okay.

Well, I don't know. Well, how are they ranked? By hotness? No, by how much money they have. Okay. Where's Cohen? Tough times. I'm searching.

94. This seems to be like updating like pretty live updates. Live updates? Yeah, like there's a There's a person whose entire job is just moving people up and down on the billionaire trail?

I'm sure there are multiple people. Like I'm sure this is driving Forbes' entire business. The people just searching billionaires. Are you looking at like farc.com? No, I'm looking at Forbes.com slash billionaires. Look at this.

You want to talk about special builds? Forbes is on it. That's kind of the QB rankings. Who's the Stephen Ruiz of billionaires? I'm sure that there's someone who works

very hard on this. Okay, interesting. Anyway, before billionaires, I was supposed to, I was going to say something, but what was it? How in the hell would we know the

answer to that's a good question oh i was just saying watching dumb money while knowing that we were going to do a garbage cash episode was exactly the right way to see i think garbage cash is a great invention for this type of this type of movie which which is like fine, watchable, scratches, you know, the itch of this type of movie, which I like. And then I went on with my day. It is a perfect fit in the subgenre. Exactly. Perfect. Because it's not too good. And whether or not a movie can be too good for this, you know, historically, Chris, we've done many episodes now about crime movies, spy movies, movies that take place in airplanes, a lot of different sub-genres that we like. Underlying those films is often

a kind of mediocrity that we really enjoy. Yeah. Whether that be by dint of budget or by dint of writing or whatever is holding it back from being Academy-worthy or a billion-dollar film. They're middle-of-the-road movies

that are a lot of fun. This category is a little bit different to me. I think a lot of these movies may stand in the shadow of a more popular achievement, but are not necessarily in any way less than. You know what I mean? So I think often what we'll talk about

with the garbage movies is like it's almost a copy of, like it's a certified copy of hunt for October. It's a copy of, uh, I don't know. Yeah. He right.

Like that's the dead of thieves is like the sort of archetypal garbage movie where you're just like without heat, this movie could not be made, but in some ways it's pleasures are equal. I wouldn't say that, but like, they're like, they're incredible pleasures from watching dead of thieves.

These movies, like for, I think some of them are, like, some of my favorite films from the last 20 or 30 years. But, like, often are compared to something that either popularity-wise, like, just outshines it or artistically kind of, like, sets the tone for it. Amanda made an interesting point, you know, like, with Dumb Money, part of the trickiness, really, of any contemporary story is that the internet kind of dominates our lives. And so

to render that is kind of dull visually, cinematically. But money is not necessarily cinematically interesting either. And yet these movies have an incredible kind of propulsiveness. They're very involving. They feel very high stakes. Like obviously we can tell the difference between having a TikTok account and having a million dollars. Having a million dollars is very involving. They feel very high stakes. Like, obviously, we can tell the difference between having a TikTok account and having a million dollars. Having a million dollars is more exciting and more important and higher stakes. But still, visually, it's not the greatest thing. So why do these work? Well, what money can buy is and how money is spent in these worlds is can be very visually specific and either, you know, alluring or just tacky and spectacularly visual ways.

So there is a lot that you can do with the culture of the thing. And there is, you know, especially if you're talking about like finance specifically, everyone dresses a certain way. You know, there's like, there is a whole world within it that has its own rules and rigors and is fascinating and still not accessible to most people. So it is like a peek behind the curtain, right, of how you imagine all of these, you know, these Wall Street weirdos and legends behave. How do you know you're watching a garbage cash movie? Well, money being the motivating factor behind most human behavior these days it makes it um the acquisition of and the keeping of riches is

essentially like what the movie has to be about doesn't necessarily have to be a movie about finance it doesn't have to be a movie about the stock market or banking or anything like that but i think that being the scent like money being the central preoccupation of the characters is when you know you're watching something like this. What do you think of when you think of these movies? I think of usually someone either lower in on the system or someone from outside some sort of system is like, these guys have a lot and we're going to try to have some too.

And here's how we're going to make this work for us. And so I guess that outsider, like the little guy against the big guy mentality. And then also like actual, like money. Yeah, money's a language. So like, just like crime is language, espionage is language, space travel's a language so like just like crime is language espionage is language space travel is a language like to be convincing and telling these stories you have to like speak this language and like the jargon is is very heavy as they are in most of these garbage genres

and artfully kind of conveying basic human behavior through these incredibly complex terms and ideas of modern financers, actually. The big magic trick these movies pull. So for me as a viewer, when someone looks into the camera and explains collateralized debt obligations, that's intoxicating. I don't know that that's true for everybody. But when something like that is happening in a movie, I don't know why.

I don't really have an intellectual understanding of what a CDO is or even why it's fun for me to watch an actor explain it. But I like it. And I'm not in finance and I'm not really that interested in the world of finance, if I'm being totally honest. I don't spend a lot of time reading the financial page. But it's because as America Ferreira's character in Dumb Money says, it's like, but it's because as america ferreira's character in dumb money says it's like because it's all made up and so and they they make it you know you're being let in on a secret you're being let inside the club they're like this is how it works and if you know this then you're one of us instead of one of them but so like that doesn't really apply

to my my my personal life as much i've been trying to figure out why that is. I don't spend a lot of time looking at my portfolio. Right. I don't want to better understand some of these things. In fact, frankly, they bore me. So why is it that in a movie, I realize this is a me problem. Sure. Well, in a movie, why is it so exciting? Because it's pure drama.

Because you can watch Barge and Call and you can watch Jeremy Irons walk around the room and be like, I am going to get rid of all this toxic debt that's on the books of this company and kill Wall Street. This is it. Yeah. And you do not know,

they literally have rocket scientists in the room trying to explain this. And all you get is the idea that this is fucked up and important and whatever happens, everything is going to be different tomorrow. And it's riveting. It's absolutely riveting.

Yeah. I think that's why margin call, especially looms very large in recent years of this because it is kind of a summation of those dramatic stakes that you're describing and it's a much less glib version of what big short does you know yes so in some ways instead you could make the argument that big short is the garbage version of margin call well i wanted to ask you like what flavor of these movies you like do you like one that plays it more

straight and more serious or do you like one that plays it more winking and more satirical i like them all okay i mean i don't you know they have different you could probably do sub genres within the sub genre but i guess if you're asking me to choose between big short and margin call i like the big short a little bit more but that's just because of like you know the the cast like the elevated nature of it also like i don't when was the last time you guys saw Margin Call, but Kevin Spacey being the emotional linchpin at the end, it's not really... Hasn't aged the best.

Yeah, I was like, oh, okay. Something happened with Kevin Spacey. And also, it just takes a really long time, and it's like the dog, and I'm just like, what are we doing here? That's right. See, this is why I watch Margin Call mostly on YouTube. Yeah.

The first half and through Jeremy Irons is amazing and then it's just like Kevin Spacey Spacey is good when he's like this is what a fire sale

looks like. It's pretty good. His performance is very good in the film despite the fact that he clearly has done monstrous things. I think that that's

an interesting aspect of these movies. Before we started recording I just said to Bob I need you that that's an interesting aspect of these movies. Before we started recording, I just said to Bob, I need you to find places to put speeches from these movies because they have these great individual scenes. You know, they have these great monologues. They have these great explanations of the situations that are just like their YouTube moments.

And even the movies that we've talked about in other garbage sub-genres, I feel like they don't quite have the same experience. I watch scenes from Margin Call like this. I watch Ben Affleck's speech from Boiler Room, which is the Life Advice theme song, basically. I watch Jared Van Ness' opening presentation to Steve, Gosling's presentation to Steve Carell from Big Short,

like over and over again, whenever I'm like, I have 10 minutes, I'm bored, I want to see, like Jeremy Strong go, that's a nice shirt, do they make it for men?

To Ryan Gosling. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about this, but 25th Hour similarly has a very similar sequence, you know, with Barry Pepper's character. Your tie is giving me a fucking... It's an optical illusion.

You look like an optical illusion. Some of that is that there's also something funny about aggro men insulting each other in rooms. And that is a feature of these films. Not strictly. And then there are much more sober examinations, I think, of the world. And then also, I guess we posed a couple of questions about whether some movies are and are not garbage cash and so i feel like a lot of our conversation should be like you somebody put down michael clayton like is michael clayton a garbage i

would posit that it is instead garbage suit because it's about corporate conspiracy. You did it. Wow. Yeah. You unlocked it. And so is the insider. Okay. Which has that YouTube moment of the, you know, your incompetent little fingers. Christopher Plummer is so good in the insider, but that's even though the corporate.

Try Mr. Wallace. Yeah. Even though the corporations want money, you know, and money is ultimately animating both Michael Clayton and Insider. Like,

what's at stake there is, is corporate intrigue. And so I think, like, We're slicing the garlic very thin here. I don't think so,

but that's, it's not about money. Like, they are not actually doing, here is what, like, a leveraged buyout is and not,

like, here's, like, XYZ. Right, they're not doing finance, but Brown and Williamson or whatever the cigarette company is,

is trying to protect their bottom line. It's an agribusiness. Right. Yeah. In Michael Clayton, by the way, in The Insider.

Right, right, right, right. But so, and that's interesting to kind of explore though because Chris saying that money

is what motivates most people, that is what is underlining all movies that operate in a corporate sphere. Dumb Money is a corporate movie for sure. Not just about GameStop as a corporation, but the way that these hedge funds are constructed to be corporate apparatuses that navigate our country. If you want to go big, money is animating basically every single American movie that we love. Yeah, The Wizard of Oz.

You know, Citizen Kane. That road is fucking gold. Yeah, right. So that's like a tough— Is Citizenain garbage cash right I don't I don't think it is the other thing that I would say

to you is that like we need to we need more podcasts you know so like why don't we just like you're going to reverse rewatch well I'm just like running out of movies garbage

suits yeah you know can like be its own it's like if you wouldn't make a movie you wouldn't do a pod garbage men and just go through all men in movies and do a seven-hour podcast. Amanda does it every week.

To Amanda's point about Michael Clayton and Insider, traditionally. Two of the great movies. Historically. Of the last 30 years. As good as they get. Garbage versions of those would be like arbitrage. Yeah. Right?

Like the, it's not quite Michael Clayton. That's pretty good that's the thing people are sitting at home and they're hearing us say the insider michael clayton the wolf of wall street right he's just some of the best movies of the last 25 years the like they're on the list but it's the best yeah but it is tough because as soon as you said garbage cash i was like i don't know how you leave wolf of Wall Street off that list, even though Wolf of Wall Street is one of the best movies of the last 20 years. One of my favorite Scorsese movies, full stop, like amazing movie. But it's so like, I guess it encapsulates like this, like the spirit of the thing of just like a truly garbage guy trying to like make a lot of money.

And then that going wrong. the thing of just like a truly garbage guy trying to like make a lot of money. Um, and then that going wrong. And then is also like the most visually like engaging version of it. I don't know. I guess garbage is meaning two things. What does it mean? Well, like the,

the Leo character in Wolf of Wall Street is a garbage person in search of cash. So it can be a garbage cash. I like what you're doing here. Well, I'm just, you know. That's useful. We hadn't quite thought about the moral character of the spies and the astronauts. Are there any movies about money that are about good people?

Well, dumb money is trying. Yeah. Dumb money is that rare case where it is centering someone. Do you think if Martin Scorsese had made dumb money that the characters in dumb money is trying yeah dumb money is that rare case where it is centering someone do you think if martin scorsese had made dumb money that the characters and dumb money would be heroes at all there would be any heroes in it i don't because i think he has a kind of inherent cynicism about this structure you could make the case that that's kind of dumb money's flaw right is that by making it a movie that is meant to be uplifting it misunderstands the fact that like nothing has really changed since all this happened but so i'm looking at this wonderful list of like the greatest movies ever made that sean put together

i would say aaron brockovich to me is another garbage suits okay you know but that's a good person so maybe garbage suits are about good people and garbage cash is about bad people. I think you're on to something with the corporate corruption being a subgenre of a subgenre. It's something that is related, but then that takes a lot of movies off the list. What's the Clive Owen, the Tony Gilroy movie about duplicity? I was thinking about that in terms of like, is that a garbage cash? That's a garbage garbage suit but that is but that is like a true garbage suit where it's like not the wolf of wall street or any you know or it's it's not

when harry met sally because it's trying to be a rom-com but it's uh really enjoyable and uh they it just doesn't make any sense would you say that that Jason Reitman's Thank You for Smoking is also a garbage suit movie? Probably, yeah. Okay. And like Up in the Air is, I guess, a garbage suit because that's about, I don't like that movie. It's about layoffs. Yeah. What about American Psycho?

That's garbage cash, but great garbage cash. Yeah, I'd put that in there. I mean, most people would probably put that as a serial killer movie. Well, why can't we be both? It can be both. Yeah. I mean, you can make the case that all movies about people working finance are serial killer movies. In a world in which, and I actually was surprised by how few bad movies or just okay movies about money, money money like about trading money and getting that were sort of at my fingertips.

There are a lot of movies that are like actually quite quite well regarded that are about that but like these tend to I think it's like one of those things that like

if Martin Scorsese is going to make a movie about money it's going to be pretty fucking good. You know if like Adam McKay is going to make a movie about money it's going to be pretty good.. You know, if like Adam McKay is going to make a movie about money, it's going to be pretty good.

The best example that I can give of something that's just like, is just okay, but like I secretly like it a lot, the way I do Den of Thieves or whatever, is like Wall Street 2. I think Money Never Sleeps is probably the urr garbage cash movie.

That and Boiler Room, I think, are the two. Right, Boiler Room. Well, we probably need to spend some time on Boiler Room. Did you revisit Boiler Room, I think, are the two. Right, Boiler Room. Well, we probably need to spend some time on Boiler Room. Did you revisit Boiler Room? I did. Okay, so all three of us

revisited Boiler Room. I don't know if Boiler Room will ever be on the rewatchables, but let's say for the sake of this conversation, it won't. It's one of the most important movies of the last 50 years.

Doesn't mean it's one of the best movies of the last 50 years. It makes me think of you a lot. It is very, it is a very familiar landscape, I would say. The men who occupy that movie.

This is Ben Younger's directorial debut. He's only made three movies in 25 years. And it's kind of a post-Glengarry Glen Ross portrait. I mean, literally, it quotes Always Be Closing. To its credit, it's aware of the influence and paying homage. Very admiring of Glenn Ross and would not exist without it. With a young cast of interesting young Hollywood stars who are working at a chop shop selling shit stocks to unsuspecting customers by cold calling. In fact, it's an interesting movie to watch alongside The Wolf of Wall Street because

another movie set in large part on Long Island full of dipshits trying to get rich by bankrupting people. Obviously, The Wolf of Wall Street is a massive work of art about the corrosive nature of this part of the world. Boiler Room is less artful and is definitely written by

guys just like super into the Not notorious B.I.G. Which like, you know, who can relate? But it's weird how it lingers. It's a movie that hasn't gone away. And it was a dorm room movie for a long time and now it's like a lot of the dorm room guys are in their 40s and they're like, I still like Boiler Room.

And I'm kind of one of those guys. And I have a podcast. The funny thing about Boiler Room is like there's a scene in that movie where I believe they're watching Wall Street, right? And they're taking the wrong lessons from Wall Street. They're like basically lionizing Gekko. And they're like, oh my God, this guy, watch him like take this dude apart and make this sale or whatever. Are those the wrong lessons from Wall Street? Well, I think now in retrospect, people maybe those the wrong lessons from wall street well i think now in the in retrospect people maybe take the wrong lessons from boiler room where

they're like the coolest thing about this and it is the coolest thing about boiler room is ben affleck being like i am liquid i have you know i have a ferrari there's the keys and doing his speech i have a sick house on the South Fork. I do think that there is an entire generation of traders who watched these movies, internalized them, took no moral lesson and believed that they are a lifestyle. And they were like, that seems awesome.

It is. Just as Scarface is for drug dealers, this movie is for people who work on Wall Street. And a number of other movies too. And the best, most moral movies obviously are always distorted and misunderstood

by mass audiences. But, you know, the end of Boiler Room was really struck me. I hadn't seen it in a long time. And it is so abrupt and so absent true reckoning that it's understandable

that people took the wrong message like giovanni rubisi is just like i got full immunity and i bounced and then the cop showed up and then the movie just ends and you're like what the fuck is going on here um and so it's kind of persuasive in in a bad way yeah because those guys are doing awful things and they're just like i i racked 200k this month look at how look at how good i It's unusual though, because you're right, that there are not a lot of movies like it. Why are there not more mid-tier movies that are portals for aspiring stars?

Is it just because it's such an unlikable cohort in our culture? It's also, these are like very talky movies about concepts, you know? And and we all the three people here really enjoy them and many people do like dudes yelling at each other in rooms but like that's not what makes the box office go around right you know so i think it just went the way of every other drama featuring dialogue which is we'll try it sometimes but it's not how we make our money. Do you like movies like this that are seen through the prism of like the government,

like too big to fail or something like that? No, I like the Cowboys. Yeah. You like the Cowboys? Yeah. I don't really care about like this guy from the IRS has got to like, you know, take a little bit back. I like watching like bad people trade money around. I guess I should burn my script about an IRS agent who nobly pursues poor family. Is Moneyball garbage cash? I don't think so. It's one of our favorite movies.

And it has the spirit of. And it's not garbage suits. I think it's explicitly a sports movie yeah i think it's garbage ball as well the other thing is ball yeah you were asking just i hate to be this person but you were like what why don't they make more movies like that and it's like because they make succession in industry now yeah and billions yeah i guess yeah billions in particular lives in this space very clearly the first season of tons Trillium. Tons of lingo. You know, the energy between the traders on the floor.

Yeah, yeah. The styling. The absolute depravity at the core of these characters. And yet our fascination with them. What about... So there's a lot of movies like this that use this world. Money Monster is a movie that uses this world. That's a movie that is like loosely set on the set of a jim cramer-esque tv show and then it is a movie similar to what you're talking about

somebody who is less than yeah jack o'connell character is taking someone hostage live on television right i mean that's like right that's yeah it's definitely an outsider but you know it's right but he's not buying Disney stuff, hoping to make it all work. He has his different strategy. I think that's definitely Garbage Cash. I just don't know whether I would put that in the Garbage Cash Hall of Fame, even though it does star George Clooney and Julia Roberts. Well, it's not a good film. Right, exactly. And that's a real challenge here. They really like working together. Yes, and they have great chemistry, you know? Have they made a film that meets that chemistry?

That's as good as their chemistry. Besides Ocean's Eleven. No, but they have Ocean's Eleven and Ocean's Twelve. That's true. I mean, but like... Did you check out Ticket to Paradise? I did. I watched it on a plane. How'd that go?

It was fine. I thought it was enjoyable. Yeah. What'd you think of that scene with Clooney reflecting on his life at the bar? I thought it was good. Yeah? Yeah. I know that that was a favorite of your guys. Yeah. Yeah. What about the film,

The Accountant? I think you're being a little literal. Okay. That's about an assassin. So someone shared with me on social media that they believe that this is the true triangulation of all of the garbage categories, that there is no movie that would more adequately reflect our missions here in exploring these categories. Okay. Subgenres. So it's garbage, cash,

garbage, crime, crime, definitely garbage crime. I think there is a garbage espionage aspect to this story aspect to it. Um, garbage. Well,

Bernthal's in it. JK Simmons is in it. Obviously. It could be garbage suits sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Simmons is in it. Obviously, It could be garbage suits, sort of. Yeah, it definitely could be. Okay.

But if you're at the center of the Venn diagram, I guess the definition of a Venn diagram is that you are eligible for garbage cash. But I would agree, I think it's in the

Venn diagram section that has everything except garbage cash. What about garbage math? Sure. Yeah. What else would be in that? The beautiful mind.

Yeah. Would you put Bobby Fisher in that? Cause he's like gaming it out. Yeah, absolutely. War games. What else? Hidden figures.

Perfect. Yeah. Great. I'm just trying to think of anything where they're writing, like they're solving that i mean oppenheimer absolutely yeah none of these movies are truly garbage this is the real problem is we may be expanding the widening the aperture too wide okay so they it's not like the other genres that we've done in this because they don't just have like a steady stream of b movies from

this world like most of these movies become cult favorites among people like us because they are talky, because they do have this kind of hidden world, and because the stakes are kind of hidden by this jargon. But there's not a ton

of shit movies about money. That's true. When you go back and research this, it's just like the movies that it's actually more common to be like, oh, I can't get this on the list because it's too good

or it's too noble. I was going to make a case for The Laundromat. It's like, is The Laundromat too noble to be on this list? Probably. And it's all about shell corporations and fraud and... I think Laundromat is a good garbage cache. Would you sooner put Laundromat on this list or Logan Lucky? Or is Logan Lucky too much of a heist? It's a heist.

That's a rule I have here is that these are not heist movies. Like they cannot have a heist. Even if it is just a corporate heist, that doesn't really qualify for what we're doing here. I think that there's also like the Wizard of Lies is the Robert De Niro, Barry Levinson, Bernie Madoff HBO movie. That, to me,

is kind of pure garbage cash. Yeah. Where there's a lot of lingo, there's high stakes, there's unseemly characters. It's not even the 100th best movie of that year, though.

You know what I mean? Like, the quality is very middling, but, not on, like, dumb money. You put it on, and I'm like, I'm not year, though. You know what I mean? Like, the quality is very middling, but not on, like, dumb money. You put it on, and I'm like, I'm not turning this off. You know, it's Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert De Niro

in a movie that Barry Levinson directed. Like, it's pretty good. It's pretty watchable. It's pretty good. So you have one later entry on here, Hustlers, which I felt was a very clever addition. I mean, obviously,

just because of Wall Street, there are not a lot of movies about women on this list. And one of the features of Garbage Cash is just like a bunch of, you know, lunkheads in a room yelling at each other. Like, I enjoy it too. But like, Hustlers does recreate that, but with women. And a lot of the same motivations. There is a lot. I mean, it is cash focused. Isn't Hustlers during the credit crisis? No.

Or like, or yes, it is because it's like they were having a great year and then it crashes. And then they're not making money because the Wall Street guys aren't paying them. No, I think it absolutely qualifies. Yeah. I think that that's the other thing is just that 2008 now looms really large over this entire storytelling. Yeah, there's a whole sub-genre of this that could be Tarpcore movies in and around the credit crisis. And I love those movies. That would be Margin Call.

That would be Big Short. That would be Hustlers. I think I failed. Did I put The Other Guys on here? The Other Guys is a great one because that's a you know it seems like a conventional adam mckay comedy with will ferrell and mark walberg but steve coogan's character the villain of the movie is just another bullshit wall street hedge fund asshole and that was like the first indication that adam mckay really kind of had something

bigger on his mind and he kind of pivoted his career shortly thereafter, including to the big short. But 08 is very important to these movies. Would you put Trading Places in this list? I would. I would as well. I feel like that might be the first time I saw the stock market. Among other things. I mean, yeah, it evolved me in so many ways

I would say I learned a lot I'm a big fan of that movie would you put Working Girl on I did but I don't know you're the arbiter no I'm going back and forth on this because on the one hand

it's about a good person and you're rooting for her. But she is an outsider trying to get in against Sigourney Weaver and all the people. It is about acquisitions and mergers and business people. I think when people think about... It's like an iconic movie in the like going to work thing but it doesn't have lots of people yelling at each other you know okay it doesn't have that sort of people in a room jargoning it has sigourney weaver and melanie griffith like passive aggressively like fighting

each other about like, you know, canapes, but, which is its own form of corporate warfare. So I don't know. I mean, it's my favorite, it's one of my favorite movies.

I think there are more literal versions of it. Yeah. Like a somewhat contemporaneous movie, which is kind of a comedy, but also directed by Norman Jewiston

as Other People's Money. The Danny DeVito movie with Gregory Peck, where, you know know he is literally a corporate reader and a lot of the a lot of the things you

hear about in that movie where big companies you know the Carl Icans of the world came in and like disrupted smaller mom-and-pop businesses I probably learned about a lot of those ideas from

watching a movie like Other People's Money. I think corporate readers were introduced to us by by Other People's money and Wall Street. Yeah. And Barbarians at the Gate and those kind of docudramas of things that had happened at that time. You know what I haven't seen, but I really want to see is The Boost. Have you seen The Boost? No.

It's a Harold Becker movie from 1988, James Woods and Sean Young. And it's about a guy who moves to California to find his fortune in tax shelter investments. When the federal government changes the law, the man finds himself $700,000 in debt with nowhere to turn. And his friend introduces him to cocaine to give Lenny that needed boost. It's kind of Limitless before Limitless. Oh, yeah. I think I remember this movie. I haven't seen it.

I didn't see it, but I think I remember seeing like previews for it on VHS tapes and stuff. Felt like it had the same energy. And so... You weren't fast forwarding? As a child? No, you have to get up and go press the button. And we didn't have... I was pre-remotes in some ways.

Yeah. So you were pre-remotes. I don't think VCRs came with remotes when they first came out. Did they? I honestly don't know. That's like... That is the oldest thing that you've ever

said on a podcast i have a youthful energy to myself we know you recorded a pod yesterday and and bill unsurprisingly but chris somewhat surprisingly said he was more gen no he was more boomer no you said millennial oh from your vantage point of gen x uh i think you are because you're like true gen X but then you're more boomer. I think that is true. I'm late period Gen X. You said you related

more deeply to boomer than you did millennial. It was recorded. Okay. Yeah, but that's I mean that's true for all you're not like

you're always relating to the people who are older than you who you think are But you guys are millennials, right? Yeah, we're millennials but like i basically mock gen x at all times but i think i'm like have a lot of gen x influence because everything that i thought was cool are like gen x people you know like this age yeah like you yeah totally it's less complicated for

us because gen x is considered less problematic now as we get older. Yeah. I think Baby Boomer is considered archaic, hence, you know, Jan Wenner. Yeah. Wow. Have you, do you stand with him? With Jan? With Jan's takes?

I don't have a joke. Okay. Other garbage cash movies. There are a lot of other movies set in this world. Bonfire of the Vanities. Right, but that's just garbage. Hudsucker Proxy. It is just garbage.

Good point. What else? Did you guys revisit Money Never Sleeps for this pod? I didn't. Should I have? Did you? I revisited some of Josh Brolin and Shia LaBeouf talking about day trading to get ready to be in this and how they would just essentially derail promo opportunities for the film

to just trumpet the fact that they were trading at one point like 17 million dollars you know uh i now also look back on that and wonder if shia labeouf was totally telling the truth i i recall josh brolin being magnificent in this movie he's incredible he's really good I actually think part of the problem with this film is Oliver Stone has lost his mind by this point. Yeah.

Like there's a whole scene where Shia LaBeouf is trying to sell a Chinese corporation on laser fission and Oliver Stone is like, I have to explain

laser fission with like animations and shots of the sea cresting against the shore and it doesn't really do the job. But Brolin's really good.

Carey Mulligan. How about that? Yeah. Carey Mulligan. You know, I'm Wallach, isn't that film? Yeah. I didn't revisit Money Never Sleeps, but when you said garbage cash,

I was like, oh, okay, so Wall Street is just cash and Money Never Sleeps is garbage cash. That is the equation. That is the delineation for sure. That's the best way to describe this. I saw that you put Pretty Woman up for consideration. Thank you.

You know, I feel seen. It's a world of like a corporate high finance guy. Sure, and he is a corporate raider. And, you know, he learns to, he wants to buy Ralph Bellamy's company and then just like make ships or whatever. But that's like set in the world rather than about. So I would say that it is not garbage cash.

What about Brewster's Millions? In some ways, yeah. That's more like what Amanda was talking about, about outsiders being like trying to get their piece of the pie kind of thing. Do you know, have you seen Brewster's Millions? No. Richard Pryor movie. So the premise is that an aging minor league baseball player stands to inherit $300 million

if he can successfully spend $30 million in 30 days without anything to show for it and without telling anyone what he's up to. Okay. So tease out without anything. And to your point about what money can buy you, it's a movie where you're constantly thinking about that. Without anything to show for it, can you expand on that for me in the context of the movie? I mean, it's kind of an exploration of the valuelessness of material things and how quickly can you burn through what everybody wants.

Right. But like, I'm sorry that I just was immediately like, hmm, how would I do this? And I feel that I- That's why it's a great movie. Right.

I could do it. But like, are you allowed to have material goods at the end of it? No, you have nothing to show for it. Okay. So it's just like

renting all the- Because you could just buy a house for $30 million. Right, right, right. So it's like just yachts and renting, like renting yachts and- It would have to also be like a lot of experiences. Right, right. right. So it's like just yachts and running, like running yachts. It would have to also be like a lot of experiences, like hang gliding.

I don't like hang gliding. Have you tried it? No, that's a good point. I haven't tried it. I have parasailed. Have you? Yeah, when I was like 12 in the Florida Keys. Really? Yeah. Listen, I told you that I was raised as a parenthood. And here we are. Rest in peace, Jimmy Buffett.

As an example, like one of the first things that Brewster does when he sets out on this is he gets a suite at the Plaza Hotel. Oh, okay. Because at the end of that. Right. There's nothing to show for it. You could throw a lot of parties, I guess. Yeah. He runs for mayor.

And he dumps a lot of money into his mayoral campaign. Oh, okay. So it's about... All right, this is clever. It's a cool movie. It's a good movie. Walter Hill movie, underrated. Yeah, okay. What else?

Any other movies jump out to you from this subgenre before we consecrate 10 that we think are appropriate? Can I give you guys one? Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of them. Is Killing Them Softly, which is of course a crime movie.

It's an amazing movie about capitalism, but I don't know if it's a garbage cash movie. Is Killing Them Softly, which is of course a crime movie. It's an amazing movie about capitalism, but I don't know if it's a garbage cash movie. If you accept, though, that the metaphor is entire, you could completely

remake the film and set it in a boardroom and make it, you could make it Margin Call without the murder, but the murder. Right.

Well, so, I am newer to garbage genres. Thanks for including me. Thank you for being here. I've been listening at home enthusiastically for some time. What are you doing? Are you silently pumping your fists saying, yes.

No, I'm. They said plain. No, I'm texting you and being like, here are my thoughts. Okay. My understanding is that like metaphor is not often a major feature of the garbage movie you know like it's the the metaphor version is the good movie and then the garbage movie is just the movie this is the land of the literal yeah you're saying well i just i'm just putting it out there yeah because it's like greed is a different beast than cash like in, I think, like, Treasure of Sierra Madre

is in some ways like a garbage cash movie. I mean, it's also one of the greatest movies ever made. But that is more about how, you know, this dust in our hands will still drive us mad if we ascribe value to it, right? Right, right. That's a movie about the desire for money is not the same as a garbage cash movie.

Right. Okay. Yeah, because then it would be every... So are we saying to begin this sort of Hall of Fame, Margin Call, which is this beautiful, refined film of nuance and...

From the director of Craven the Hunter. Yes. J.C. Shandor. He shall always be known. Is that a garbage cash movie? Here's what I'm going to say. Yeah. We are removing the concerns of prestige.

Okay. These are the best. Yeah. Because I loved what you said. Your point of view was great, which is that if we include the moral character, we put a new shade around garbage. Now I'm the person that's like, we need to make moral judgments of all the characters.

I didn't mean that. No, no, no. No, it's just definitional. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. So margin call goes in.

Well, sir, if those assets decrease by just 25% and remain on our books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of this entire company. I think it's a pretty classic example. It also was like, didn't do any business at the box office, wasn't nominated for any awards. Like, it's a movie that...

It's like, listen, it's really good. Jeremy Irons in particular, just A-plus stuff, but it's not like... Bettany is out of his mind. Oh, Bettany is absolutely out of his mind. Bettany driving a Ferrari and smoking

and being like, if I take one finger off the scale, all this goes away. Poof. It's good, but it has garbage undertones. Yes, absolutely. Okay? In the best way.

They should have just made... I mean, Penn Badgley's in this movie. Yes. You know? I think the question we have to ask ourselves is, are Wall Street and Glen Gary Glen Ross in the best way i i they i they should have just made i mean pen badgley's in this movie yes you know i think the question we have to ask ourselves is are wall street and glengarry glen ross not eligible yeah they're not specifically because they are referenced explicitly and exist in future garbage cash movies okay yeah all right i like that well then i i i'm putting boiler room forward as sure yeah an essential text margin call and boiler room are in anybody tells you money's the Alright, I like that. Well then I'm putting Boiler Room forward. Sure. Margin calling Boiler Room, Ryan.

Anybody tells you money's the root of all evil? Doesn't fucking have any. They say money can't buy happiness? Look at the fucking smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby. You want details? Fine. I drive a Ferrari. $355 Cabriolet. What's up?

Those feel like no-brainers. Absolutely. So now we get into... I think the big short... This is the big question. Is a movie like this, which is nominated for Best Picture and Screenplay... Sure. But you said we're taking prestige out of it. Okay, yeah. And it is referencing in its own way that entire genre it is has incredibly memorable but in many ways

a lot going on um and has the essential i mean it is it is the text it is about wall street it is about the crash and it is also about dudes just saying aggro things to each other in rooms and on phones and at like everywhere all the time speaking to a very specific audience that does not quite understand what they're watching which is kind of interesting a lot of movies don't take that step but all the cutaways the bourdain and the margot robbie stuff and the like does that work straight to camera in this iteration yes one time around the block i like it uh and i would say in after in subsequent watchings of big short i don't like pause on the the anthony bourdain scene to like really savor it i'm just but you do pause when

margot robbie is in the no i pause and and savor ryan gos being like, I'm jacked to the tits. So you're offering us a chance to short this pile of blocks. How? With something called a credit default swap. It's like insurance on the bond. And if it goes bust, you can make 10 to 1, even 20 to 1 return. And it's already slowly going bust. 10 to 1, 20 to 1? No way. already slowly going bust. 10 to 1 20 to 1 no way.

And no one's paying attention. How did Brian Gosling get his hair to look that color? I don't know. Or that texture. Hair dye.

But it's like a It could be a wig. Oh. Yeah. I mean that that's part of the movie making process.

I don't know if I've ever seen what Jared Vanette looks like in person like in real life. I think't know if I've ever seen what Jared Vanette looks like in person, like in real life. I think about fashion friends like every day. You know? That's really funny. Do you wish you had fashion friends? I do have

fashion friends. Okay. And I think about them and I'm like, well those are my, you know. But when you're with me and Sean are you like, you guys aren't my real friends, I have fashion friends? No, no, no, no, no. I don't think about it that way. I just, I have friends who are like my fashion friends. What does that mean? They work in the fashion industry.

As designers? No. Okay. Well, they're in the media. I mean, nothing against the media. I'm in the media. It's okay. It's not, you know, Giorgio Armani isn't like

taking you up to go to Whole Foods. But they'll talk with me about fashion stuff also. Like, they know what's going on. It's like you got Mets friends. Yeah. I have like hardcore friends, I guess. Yeah, and I have fashion friends.

Hardcore porn friends? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys just watch porn together. We're just tape guys, yeah. All those VHS trailers you were talking about earlier. Okay, so I'm with you. The're just tape guys. All those VHS trailers you were talking about earlier. Okay. So I'm with you. The Big Short is in.

Margin Call, Boiler Room, The Big Short. Let us continue. What else? The Wolf of Wall Street. I think yes. Even though it's one of... Again, we took prestige out of the equation, so we can say it's just an absolute masterpiece

that also is about dudes doing drugs and being garbage. I guess this is more the Money Hall of Fame now that we're getting to it, right? Well, that's what I'm saying is, can a masterpiece be garbage? I don't know. We've never put a masterpiece be garbage i don't know we've never put a masterpiece in garbage but they're all masterpieces right yeah once we consecrate them yeah i say i i say yes i say yes as always on these exercises it's our list that's right that's true

you know what i'm not leaving i'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. I'm not fucking leaving! Do both Wall Streets go on? No, I think that just Wall Street 2 goes on. I believe so. Wall Street Money Never Sleeps is in.

And now I kind of want to rewatch it. I hope more people at home will rewatch it. Will you tweet out some of the clips of Brolin and Shia talking about their day trading? Yeah. I remember the Shia thing where he was just like, it's just incredible. At one point I was managing this much. And he was like, I was working with the guy at Schwab. So you're not day trading you Chris Ryan I do not know and have you ever no and okay D D have you sought out individual stocks and acquired them uh I have acquired shares do I really have to talk about my financial life I have a financial advisor like no I just you haven't been a financial advisor I have a financial advisor. No, I just, you know. You have a financial advisor. I have a financial advisor.

I just. I am in the market, but like I do not have like my hands on my stocks where I'm like, this is going to go, this is going to pop, short this, like that kind of shit. I don't do that. I wasn't asking you to share like your financial planning.

My social security number. My dad is also just like has a day trading app and just, you know. Oh yeah. I feel like that could be something I feel that way. I feel the way about day trading as I do about sports gambling, which is like, I have a somewhat addictive personality. I think it's a slippery slope. I wouldn't want to start playing and losing money really bothers me.

Okay. Like I, when I hear Bill and Sal podcast, like I get slightly nauseous of imagining, like, the amounts of money that are being thrown around. In a cool way. Like, in a tantalizing way. But still, like, I'm like,

the idea that, like, Sal's live betting parlays of two teams that are down 20 points and I don't know how many dollars he's putting on that, but, like, that's intense. Do you know what they say about scared money no it doesn't make it

it don't make none right okay so just keep that in mind okay what about you what about you I'm in the market

sure no one asked whether you're in the market what about me I just he just asked me he just said what about you

what was the question you're not but you're not day trading does Eileen oversee does Eileen day trade no never that's the opposite of our strategy

yeah just it's a 30 year plan right slow and steady hopefully longer than that Does Eileen oversee Does Eileen day trade? No never That's the opposite Of our strategy Yeah It's a 30 year plan Right Slow and steady Hopefully longer than that I'd like to make it past 70 No but that might be Part of why these movies

Are appealing Like I think this is Really relevant Because it is a little bit Of a foreign experience For me too I think people who are Who are day trading

Probably look at these movies The same way that you know we might look at a movie about a podcaster you know where you're like that's not really how it works or that's not how it feels. But do you guys

because I was just thinking I am not I'm not day trading. My dad you know watches Bloomberg and does his stuff. My husband does not

but I was just thinking idly and I was like if my husband he's going to listen to this and be mad but whatever but if my husband he's going to listen to this and be mad but whatever but if my husband put all the time and energy

that he puts into following the Eagles into day trading I actually think it would be worse. Yeah I don't think it would be bad. I think that there's like

the streets are full of people who are like I really like I'm putting a lot of time into this and lose all of their money. Yeah.

This is probably sharing too much but I will say like I've learned a tremendous amount about all of this from my father-in-law, who's just a very, very smart guy. He's a math professor and he has coached me in a very defined way about this, which is to say, don't spend too much time, like trying to figure out who the defensive coordinator of,

you know, pharma company X is in order to invest in the company. He's like, what you need to look at is the bigger picture and not trend lines over days, but trend lines over years and understand them in that way. The way that we follow sports, Zach, me, Chris, every day I'm like, is the Mets hitting coach fired yet? And that's no way to do it. As far as I understand it. All right. That's good. That's good financial advice. I just wanted to take a vacation. I'm just trying to get to Mexico. Okay.

We have to keep adding movies. Trading places. Yeah. Trading places. Yes. Trading places. We could throw the laundromat in. I like the laundromat and I like hustlers. Okay.

The laundromat, hustlers. That leaves us with, I think, three spots. Two, four, six, eight. Two spots left. See, it's tricky, right? Because the Hudsucker proxy is not really

this is not garbage cash. Okay. That's a movie about making a hula hoop. Yeah. That's a movie about the ridiculousness of the corporate ladder.

You know what? It's on this letterbox. We haven't discussed it at all and it is a heist movie but I kind of do like Inside Man as garbage cash discussed it at all and it is a heist movie but i kind of i kind of do like inside man as as garbage cash so why because it is about the outsiders trying to take down little bank takes big bank it is literally a heist of a bank yes and it is about holding a bank accountable for its trespasses to build its wealth.

Hmm. But there aren't any like financial devices. No. Safety deposit boxes are about as old as they get when it comes to financial devices. There's not a lot of jargon. Okay.

There's not. I mean, there's a lot of like dudes yelling at each other, but it's like about the president of Albania, not about like, I mean, which is amazing. It's really, really funny. yelling at each other, but it's like about the president of Albania, not about like, I mean, which is amazing. That whole fucking sequence.

It's really, really funny. I think it's missing a couple of things. I love that movie, but I don't know if... I think Brewster's Million should go in, Sean. Sounds great.

I'm going to watch it. Great. It's going in. I feel like Arbitrage is really the last piece of the puzzle. Yeah. I do as well.

Because it's very similar to Margin Call. It's extremely specific about that world. There's high stakes. It's about a guy trying to get out as opposed to trying to get in. It doesn't have that little guy formulation, but there are people who are kind of nipping at his heels in a post-Occupy Wall Street, post-08 universe. Big star performance.

We haven't talked about the fact that these movies need big star performances, and if you don't have them, you can't have a good movie like this. And that there's certain actors who seem to be very adept at handling this kind of world and language and Richard Gere and Michael Douglas are two of the best. So some of these movies are docudramas and some of them are clearly inspired by real

stories. You guys have a preference of the two? Inspired by. Yeah. And not beat for beat. What happened? Yeah, because then you tend to get a little tied down i'd rather read there's not enough distance yeah i'd rather watch a movie that's inspired like a madoff-esque figure rather than this is what bringing me off did did you ever consider working in finance no no not even a little bit no i i can't begin to explain how bad my math skills are with your high level level education, did you ever consider it?

That's rude. For like two seconds. And then I was like, oh, I don't, I can't pay attention. You know how sometimes when you start talking to me about a sci-fi movie, and I'm like, I stopped listening. I am also sort of that way. Were you like that when you were like 19? Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, I try my best. Business Amanda tries to read the Wall Street Journal. And sometimes I find myself like halfway through an article and I like don't know what I've been reading. You know, like I just can't take in the information. So I decided to not make a lot of money. I worked in the world of finance. You did?

Yeah. For 40 days. When I graduated from college, I tried desperately. Chris has heard this story, I'm sure. I tried desperately to find a job in a magazine. Applied to 50 magazines. No response. A couple months went by. I was living in New York with my soon-to-be wife and not making any money. Got a call from my dad one day and he was like, you got to get a dude and uh i was like i don't know how how do i do that i have i have a very defined skill set it's i can write about um backpack rappers and uh he was like you call your uncle and you're gonna get a job at your aunt's sister's financial firm,

which was called UBS. It had just changed from Payne Weber to UBS. And so I went in and I interviewed, and I wore a suit. I studied this not at all. I was entirely in the liberal arts. I took not a single math class in college. And this is really what's wrong with this country. And I sat down, and I spoke to this woman, what's wrong with this country. And I sat down and I

spoke to this woman who's a wonderful, very nice woman. And she was like, I think I can help you out. We have an opening in our compliance department in money laundering. Are you interested in working in anti-money laundering? And I did. I took the job and I paid $55,000 a year, which I was completely unqualified for. It was quite a nice sum of money in 2004 and did that job. And I think did it pretty well, if I'm being honest, based a year, which I was completely unqualified for. It was quite a nice sum of money in 2004 and did that job. And I think did it pretty well, if I'm being honest, based on how I was trained.

So you basically read traders' emails and shit? I looked at transactions all day. Look at you already just being like you fucking narc. I looked at trade. It was more like people moving money from one account to another. Curious financial transactions. A little Paul Pelosi action.

And then you would raise a red flag and say, can you clarify the nature of this transaction? Now, I wasn't contacting anyone. I was just literally looking at the data all day long, which of course I'm well-suited to. You are. And about 30 days into that job, I got a phone call from Complex Magazine

and they were like, we'd like you to come in and make $20,000 a year as a staff writer, which was a significant cut in pay, but was of course what I wanted to do with my life. And so I quit, badly burned a family bridge. That was a huge error on my part. I was going to say, how'd your dad take that? Didn't go well at all. But I did spend a very small period of time in this orbit. Yeah. And honestly, the people were nice. They were doing their best. But I did spend a very small period of time in this orbit. And honestly, the people were nice. They were doing their best.

I have one last wild card. Did we fill out our list? Yeah, we have 10 movies. All right. What about Uncut Gems? Wow. Interesting. I was thinking about this because I was thinking about nominating telemarketers,

which is the Safdie Brothers produced docuseries that's on HBO right now. And it's about telemarketing and fraternal orders of police and their involvement with these telemarketing firms. Can I just say that the second episode of telemarketers is my favorite thing that's come out this year? I can see this very much. It's cut. If you like Safdie Brothers movies, if you like the work of Danny McBride, like you will really be into this. Incredible characters. Is there anything more garbage and more obsessed with cash than Uncut Gems? Well, it's diamonds.

Eric Boghossian in Uncut Gems is garbage. Like, yeah, but like just the loans, the bags of money. We got to ask Josh and Benny about this if they would feel comfortable being delineated into this space. Because on the one hand, it's a true money movie.

But it's not a heist movie. But there's no market. But the market, I guess, is the diamond market. I mean, it's a gambling movie. We have a pretty narrowly defined market here in the Hall of Fame. It is a Wall Street list. Right.

You need to be able to talk about derivatives and trading stocks. Okay. I think. I like how you're thinking. And I telemarketers in some ways

not only killing them softly is like using these other chess pieces to play the same game. You know? Telemarketers is closer than uncut gems in my opinion

because they're just trying to it's the same as Boiler Room. Yeah. What they're doing is boiler room. They're just, it's a chop shop where they're convincing people to give them money for something that doesn't really exist. Um, so man, well, telemarketers is a doc series. just like literally selling worthless stickers to margin call. And they're like, you know, Kevin Spacey is like, you will, you are selling people something that has no value. And he's just like,

I'm selling it for the market price. Right. Right. Well, I love the scams in boiler room where, you know, is it Taylor Nichols? His character at a certain point is sold a stock for a pharma company that is

developing a drug for premature born babies that helps them grow, which is like the greatest fake idea to make somebody feel good about buying a stock.

It's just amazing stuff. What would your fake stock be? We didn't have time to prepare for this. I feel like you at the beginning of every rewatch,

Bill. That was really funny when Bill was like, I let Van know ahead of time. Fucking bullshit. What? Years of enduring that. You were so stressed out.

What would my fake stock be? It would be something in, just because you have a great knowledge of this, but like maybe something that you could sell as like in an Instagram ad. I was thinking

a regenerative beauty product. Yeah, or like magic mushrooms. Yeah, but those are all real, you know? Now that you're in the pocket of your big beauty products. Can you imagine her calling you? She's like, Sean, this is Amanda. Can I call you Sean? I don't know if you're like me, but you wake up,

you look in the mirror and you're just like, those bags under my eyes are getting a little bigger. You know, what if there was something out there, a cream of liniment? Zach came in yesterday and was like, should I use an exfoliator? And it was like, Amanda logged on. He read like one blog post. And then I was like, okay, so let's talk about ingredients, you know? And then I legit, I went to the Grove to see a movie and I was like, I'm's talk about ingredients you know and then I legit I went to

the Grove to see a movie and I was like I'm gonna go to Sephora for you I'm gonna get you some like sample products we're gonna make a whole thing do you know what Zach was doing while she was doing this though watching lioness because he's my brother that's one of us yeah also are you guys exfoliating because you should I exfoliate every. It is the only thing that is in my beauty regimen. Every day? Every day. Okay. You're not supposed to do that, I know.

What are you using? Just like a Nivea product. Okay. Is it like, I mean, how abrasive is the exfoliant? Abrasive. You're not supposed to do that every day. I know, but look at my face. Once again, you're not supposed to do that every day.

You have lovely skin. It's literally the only thing I do thank you so much I spend far too much money on it and it is also a hobby I learned at the feet

of the master who is my yeah are you exfoliating no Bob your cameras come on you exfoliating oh I

I do but not every day but that's not what I turn my camera on I turn my camera on to tell Chris I watched five episodes of Lioness

and One Night the other night when I was at my parents house real ones Bob and Zach build your team with them start with them two shutdown Tell Chris I watched five episodes of Lioness in one night the other night when I was at my parents' house. Real ones. Just wanted to update you on that. Bobby and Zach. Build your team with them.

Start with them. I would. Two shut down quarters. That's the fucking franchise players right there. Those are the cornerstones. Absolutely. That's Steph and Clay. How is that Clay contract aging?

Keep that in mind. What's your fake stock? God, that's a good question, Sean. I think I would do something, like, I think I could sell them. Honestly, unfortunately, I do think that I am something of a bullshit artist.

And I think that I would do, one thing that we used to do when I was a kid was sell sponsorships of little league baseball teams. So we would go into local businesses and we would just be like, excuse me, sir.

And like, you sir and like you know like really oliver twist yeah really like get the limp going um i i still think that when our children are old enough to play organized sports that we should sponsor a team that the big picture should yeah you guys should have an aau team the big picture cinephiles and then it'll find we'll finally have some merch and it'll be like the tiny soccer jerseys. Can't comment on that. Okay.

For fear of retribution from my corporate overlords. I think that what I want to do is become a major force in youth soccer as like a tactical wizard, but actually have Eileen do all the coaching. And I'll be like, you know, like the motivational speeches, the post-game press conferences, I will stand on the sideline and throw my hands up at a ref

and just be like, you know, you're blind. But you know what happens. You're just describing Nick Sirianni. That's what you are. I was going to say, like, when you're Kyle Shanahan and you have Mike McDaniel, eventually Mike McDaniel leaves.

Yeah. So Eileen may want to find a team of her own. Okay. Just going to put that out there. I don't know. I don't really know if

Eileen knows a lot about tactics. No. Got to check. Got to check in on that. She more of just like an effort merchant. Honestly yes.

I think that was really her style. She was really strong. Two footed. And really fast. There's an amazing video I got to share with you from the Honduran League

of a guy fucking slide tackling two-footed takes out two guys on the opposition it is unreal and like the video starts actually with two men rolling around holding their shins and these guys speaking his Spanish should just be like oh my god this is fucking awful yeah uh okay What's your stock? New York Mets. Okay. Yeah. Good job.

I've got a story to tell you about a once proud franchise that will rise again. Regenerative Beauty, Little League sponsorships. That is telemarketers, is me walking around just being like, these kids, they can't get shirts unless you put 50 bucks into this, you know? And you would do the Mets, the failing New York Mets. What happens if Steve, if Steve divests? What do you mean divests?

Would you want it to become like a cooperative? You know, like the Packers? Would I want that? Yeah. Would you want to- The insane people

of New York City owning the Mets? You and all the bald guys. Have you listened to WFAN? I don't. No, we can't have that. No, we need Steve to hold the team.

He's the wealthiest owner in sports. It's a good thing. He spends the money. It's great. He just needs to WFAN. No, we can't have that. No, we need Steve to hold the team. He's the wealthiest owner in sports. It's a good thing. He spends the money. It's great. He just needs to have good management. He's hired a new president of baseball operations. David Stearns, who was raised a Mets fan. Things are looking up.

Right? Can I ask one more other thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is really, you can cut this if you want. But it kind of like tangentially has to do with money. Okay. Do you know how many times we've just completely cut you out of episodes we've recorded with you? No.

Like you've hardly appeared on any episodes of this show. First of all, that's not true. Because sometimes to amuse myself, I listen back to these. Mostly to chart your nervous breakdowns. And just be like, where was he like that week? Oh, that was the Thanos week. Anyway, there's this video from First Take the other day. Okay. That you got gotta see where i don't

know if bobby's you see this is it steven it's chris russo talking about getting hammered at noon and taking a gummy and betting ten thousand dollars on colorado buffalo's football that was a great video yeah truly special stuff i thought it was so ste Stephen A. Smith's not first take. He's in the video. I saw that he was just like screaming about spending $20,000 taking his children to the Eras tour. And I was like, oh, I should see that video.

Not that I've been to the Eras tour or have $20,000 to spend on it. Do you want to come see the Eras movie with us, Chris? I was listening to you guys talk about this. It sounds like you have a complicated relationship to both this film and Taylor Swift's music. Me? Yeah. I don't. I don't really have a relationship to her music.

But the prospect of putting on friendship bracelets seemed to terrify you like you saw the Babadook. It was something I was not aware of. It was a trend that I found a little concerning. In Sean's defense, as I was thinking through it, I was being like, well, will you trade a friendship bracelet with the 10-year-old girl you don't know? And I think Sean's answer to that was rightfully no.

I think that's right. Yeah. There was an update about this. AMC said that they're going to be handing them out, I think, at the screenings. So you'll get one anyway, Sean. Like if Amanda and I were to trade friendship bracelets, that's reasonable. Okay. We're peers.

I just don't know if it's great. And I'm not making an explicit connection here. But like when we get to the end of the year and it's like, yeah, Barbie and Oppenheimer, but like the two success stories of this year were the Errors Tour movie and Sound of Freedom. Those are the independent successes. Yeah, it's going to be dark.

Yeah. Well, it says a lot about independence. As us nerds like, oh, Hal Hartley's on the Criterion Channel. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I don't,

the Heiress Tour movie being successful doesn't say a lot in either direction other than that she's just really fucking huge. But Chris, you don't want to come with us

or you do? I do. Yeah, I do. Okay, I invited your wife last night as well. She's excited for the movie. So she already has tickets with her fashion friends, but maybe she'll have come with us as well. I'd be happy to join you guys.

Great. Last night, I booked a ticket to see a rep screening of Boogie Nights that ends 45 minutes before I'm going to see Taylor Swift, The Heiress Tour. So it could be just like the most Bobby day of all time. Bob, you're getting big picture pill, dog. You don't have to watch seven hours of movies a day. Yes, I'm not doing it out of necessity. I'm doing it out of desire.

The passion grows ever stronger. Film will never die. Bob, thanks so much for your work on this episode. You're a producer. Sean, you engineered it though I did engineer it I am the engineer of this podcast

yeah what are we what are we doing next aren't I on again soon you are yeah you guys are doing sci-fi have you seen

the creators we're seeing it tonight oh that's cute me and Femrock going to Burbank with Mal yeah oh that's nice I've seen the trailer

like five times now before the various movies it's a very effective trailer they're pushing it hard I would say I'm excited yeah I'm really ready

to see it I hope it's good so Chris will come back and we'll do that next week but then also we're talking about Stop Making Sense and our favorite

concert films with Rob Harvilla which should be a very fun episode and we'll see you then.