The Big Picture - The Top 10 Garbage Revenge Movies and ‘Rebel Ridge,’ With Jeremy Saulnier!

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Sean is joined by Chris Ryan to review some news items out of the fall film festival circuit (1:00) before discussing one of their favorite genre movies of 2024, Jeremy Saulnier’s revenge thriller ���Rebel Ridge’ (17:00). They discuss their delight at having Saulnier back in the director’s chair and Aaron Pierre’s breakout performance, before minting a new subgenre: Garbage Revenge, a.k.a. Trash Justice (49:00). Then, Sean is joined by Saulnier to discuss the production of the movie, what type of writer he is, how exacting type of filmmaking, and what he hopes to do next (1:22:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Chris Ryan and Jeremy Saulnier Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about garbage revenge, trash justice, vagabond vigilantes, and payback junk. Chris Ryan is here. Hi, Chris. What's up, man? How are you? I'm doing okay. We are surviving an epic heat wave here in Los Angeles. Do you want to share your trauma?

No, I don't. I just shared it with you off mic and I won't be revisiting it. But maybe we can talk about taking revenge on this city with this podcast. Taking revenge on Mother Nature. That would be a good movie. That is, well, yeah. One might say that it's been taking its revenge on us for several years now today on the show inspired by jeremy saunier's brawny gripping new action thriller rebel ridge we're defining the latest subgenre in our garbage series this is the seventh eighth ninth time we've done this i think so i think seventh yeah are these going well sometimes i think we have like a very clear idea of the parameters we're working with, and sometimes it's a little bit more free jazz.

And I actually think this one's a little bit more of the former. I think we have some rules here we need to talk about. Okay, I'm excited about that. I also talked to Sonia, one of our favorite directors. He also directed Blue Ruin, Green Room. This is his first movie in six years. This is Hold the Dark. Hold the Dark.

This movie, very complicated production process that we'll talk about, but he's obviously a great filmmaker, very smart guy, great guest on the show. Stick around for the chat, especially if you like Red Bull Ridge, which it seems like a lot of people do. Before that, you want to talk some festival news with me? I would love to, man. I was going to prompt you with a question at the beginning of this. Okay. You're now in a... The chrysalis has cracked. Mm-hmm. And the awards moth that is Sean Fennessey is flapping its wings. Yeah, I am.

Do you ever have like... So like when you're in the middle of summer and it's blockbusters and everything is like, did this perform up to expectations? Was the tracking right on this? And now you've pivoted to it's Marianne Jean-Baptiste's time, right? Like, do you have like a preference for what part of the year is the most enjoyable for you?

Or is it like, do you have a focus? Do you have like a thing that makes, do you have one side of the year that makes you happier? I think I tend to end up liking the movies released in the fall more than the summer. Yeah. And I think that will be true for this year as well. Although, I, and I'm the victim of my own crime here.

The award season is just too long. Summer movie season is three months. Award season is six months. Yeah. So, you know, by talking through the festivals in September as designed by the festival creators, it means that we now go from last week until March. That's not ideal. Yeah. I don't love that.

But you know what? If I get to say the words Mike Lee to you, that's amazing. Yeah. That's incredible. You know, if I get to say the words Brady Corbett to you, what do you think? I get excited. So let's talk about Venice quickly. The Room Next Door, which is Pedro Almodovar's new film,

which got, I would say, mixed positive reviews out of Venice, won the Golden Lion at the film festival. Maybe that puts it back in Oscar convention. Is that a home game for Pedro, though? Like, not technically? Well, he's not from Italy. But, like, is it European film festivals for him is like that's like

Boca Juniors playing at the Bombonera you know what I mean like it's just we're we have an 80% win percentage here it could be

I think it's really more a testament to the fact that the Venice slate was ultimately pretty mediocre and that a lot of these slates seem to be fairly mediocre

through the film festivals not mediocre apparently is Brady Corbett, actor-turned-filmmaker, The Brutalist. I mentioned this movie on the pod with Amanda last week, and she acted as though I uttered Satan's name. She's not seen the film. I've not seen the film. But it is a three-and-a-half-hour epic story about, I think, America in power. Yeah. And which part of that did she object to? I think she objected to the tweets from the bros who were comparing it to There Will Be Blood.

Now, am I going to say that I won't be having one of those tweets after I see it? I'm not going to say that. I might. Yeah. I might feel that way. I really don't know. You reserved the right to tweet what you please. Did you see Vox Lux?

I did, yeah. What'd you think of that movie? I'm a big fan of his. I think he's got a pretty, like, great eye. CR! Come on! CR is back! Did you see Childhood of a Leader? Yeah, of course I did, yeah. What'd you think of that movie? I'm a big fan of his. I think he's got a pretty great eye. CR! Come on! CR is back. Did you see Childhood of a Leader?

Yeah, of course I did. Childhood of a Leader was pretty cool. Vox Lux, I found somewhat insufferable, personally. That being said, both of his movies look great. I like directors who go for it. I also like directors who go for it when they're still in their 40s. We don't have to wait until their last film, their 88, and their self-financing stuff.

I could definitely sense over the weekend both the hype cycle and the backlash happening three times over the course of four days if you were looking at film Twitter. But I wonder whether or not we can get...

Do you think... I don't think this will get Oppenheimer big, but do or not we can get like do you think I don't think this will get like Oppenheimer big but do you think we could get the like you absolutely must see this movie it is a masterpiece like pushing this into like a real realm of not popularity but like kind of like more mass audiences rather than just festivals and awards heads I think it's plausible the movie was acquired by a24 over the weekend which is there are some dominoes related to that acquisition, reportedly for $10 million. Here's the thing that's going on. I don't see on the slate, and I have not seen yet this year, a five-star movie. A movie that everyone hails as a true masterpiece. Other than what? Night Swim? Right. There's Night Swim, which I guess was January, so I'd forgotten. I'm hoping it gets re-released for the awards push. Yeah, I'm

waiting my 4K right now, which I'll be showing on my 95-inch television screen very soon. I think that there's a space for here was our great film this year. Here was our agreed-upon critical sensation. I don't think it's a very... It doesn't sound

like a very commercial movie. It's a period piece that's three and a half hours with an intermission. That's awesome. I mean, it's cool. For me and you, that's great. For the movie going public, I think there are some challenges there.

I think it could have a long award season run. It's possible. You know, it's Adrian Brody, Guy Pearce, and Felicity Jones are the stars of the movie. And Joe, yeah, so you're Alwin stock up. It's fucking back, man. That's great. How is your Birdeam home stock doing?

It's on like a little bit of a burner in the back. There's just like a little bit of a match. It's nice. But I don't know. You know, my pilot light went out this weekend. I got to tell you, that's how it feels in the Mahomes household lately. A24 quickly. Their awards contenders this year are as follows

Sing Sing which came out in some cities but not all cities and you disagree with the release process for this I was just confused by it a movie that I liked

quite a bit it feels like that movie has been backburnered a little bit in terms of priority if the Brutalist is going to be released so the idea with Sing Sing

was like it was like limited release increase increase it should then go wide-ish. And instead it decreased, decreased. Is that going to go on Apple? Does A24 still have this like distribution?

It's possible that they wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, and then re-release it in theaters. So they can get closer into award season. I'm not really quite sure what they're going to do. They typically have a longer window before their movies go to max, I believe, is their output. They also have a few other movies. They have We Live live in time which just premiered at the toronto film festival the andrew garfield and florence pew movie they have baby girl uh nicole kidman just won best actress for baby girl at the venice film festival doesn't seem like a best picture play but it could be a best actress play and they have queer which they also just acquired which is luca guadagnino's second

movie of 2024 starring daniel craig very divisive sounds like a little bit too much of a head trip to be a serious awards movie though it does sound like the kind of thing i'm interested in an adaptation of william s burroughs novel so the brutalist thing i don't i don't i it may be months and months before we see this movie but it feels like they're circling it as a serious contender in what I would describe as a soft year. Now, you don't pay as much attention to this stuff. Not until it's like go time, not until playoffs. So, I mean, based on what you've seen this year, like what even is a best picture contender in your head? I have no idea.

Because like the movies that I've liked the most, of which I will spoil the second half of this spot and say Rebel Ridge is one of them, are all genre movies that would have no shot. Like, Civil War is not going to get nominated. So, with the exception of Dune 2, which I think they have to, like, sharpie in as we have to get people to watch this show, right? So we have to put this up. And we've talked a little bit before about Dune

3. I don't I think it's going to be quite weird, and I don't know if that's going to have the return of the king. It's the third one. Denis did it. Let's just give this 10 Oscars. I think it might be Dune 2 that gets a lot of that buzz or push. But yeah, I mean, there's obviously a hole for this.

And also, it's kind of rad that we're even talking about this, and it's not directed by Paul Thomas Anderson, and it's not directed by Christopher about this and it's not directed by Paul Thomas Anderson and it's not directed by Christopher Nolan and it's not directed by Martin Scorsese it's like a guy that I don't think

people are very familiar with but has pulled something pretty magical off which is to come out of like left field revive Brody who's obviously

been having a lot of success as a character actor over the last couple of years especially on television as a leading man in a movie, and kind of has this religious response so far. I'm trying to think of when is the last time an American epic won Best Picture from a non-canonical filmmaker?

You know what I'm saying? Those parameters that you described. I don't think it's an epic. I mean, it's a a great film and it is close to the example that you're describing an independent production obviously a very important and meaningful movie but from someone that we have not really heard from before like a true sensation like this i'm'm not, I mean, is this unprecedented? I was thinking about how cool it would be if Nickel Boys and, uh, Brutalist were like the two big awards contenders. And I know that you said that Nickel Boys is probably too avant-garde to

really get that kind of acceptance. It's very audacious. But it would remind me almost of Moonlight and La La Land. That would. Two new filmmakers like we're here. That would be There's like two new filmmakers, like we're here. That would be exciting. I mean, honestly, I think the last time something like this happened was Dances with Wolves. And Kevin Costner was a famous movie star, but not a famous director.

So that's a long time since a true epic from a filmmaker with a very small track record came through and won Best Picture. That's if he wins. I mean, Brutalist, who knows? The people that I've talked to who saw it loved it. And they're basically like, this is Sean porn. So if he wins. I mean, Brutalist, who knows? The people that I've talked to who saw it loved it and they're basically like, this is Sean porn. So that's exciting.

I'm intrigued though. I'm really intrigued. Did they have a release for this yet? Is there no trailer? No, I mean, it was just picked up. It was just picked up. So we shall see. TIFF is happening right now.

We'll have a full TIFF report from Adam Neiman next week. I thought it was interesting. The Night Bitch trailer is one of the worst trailers I've ever seen in my life. Seems like the movie is maybe not as bad as that trailer

based on the early response you also have been holding the Amy Adams stock how are you feeling? I actually am holding Amy Adams stock I think the company wide

aggression towards her will not stand I'm a fan but I don't plan on seeing Night Bitch you won't see the film unless I'm professionally obligated to

is it because it's a movie about a woman? I'm a cat guy. You're a cat guy? Yeah, I like cats. Okay. Cool. Alright, good. If it was called Night Cat, I think that would be pretty chill. What is Night Cat about? A woman who turns into a cat. At night because she...

I think this is about a woman who's had a baby who's been made to be kind of a feral animal. I see. So why couldn't that be like an alley cat? It could, but what did she birth? Did she birth like a gremlin? Like not a baby.

You know, I think it's like a... Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah. Night bitch, yeah. Mike Flanagan's The Life of Chuck. Have you read about this at all? I have. I have.

The kinder, gentler Stephen King movie. What's your state of mind regarding Mike Flanagan? A filmmaker you and I have talked about quite a bit over the years. I'm very interested. And I think that his stuff actually has legs beyond the instantaneous moment that it gets released.

So I found a lot of his Netflix series to be challenging in a good way. So pace-wise are often very methodically plotted and very like slowly paced and kind of glacial, but have really big payoffs. But I was thinking about Dr. Sleep the other day. And I was like,

that's, it's rare that you get a big movie like that, a big blockbuster movie that fails at the box office, but like is intended to be a big blockbuster. And then it has like these kinds of new lives over the course of its head. fails at the box office but is intended to be a big blockbuster. And then it has these kinds of new lives over the course of it. It had the director's cut. I feel like it comes up

frequently where it's like, oh, check out this shot. And we didn't know what we had when this came out. So I'm excited to see him back doing a feature. I get a little bit of... I get a little defensive

when a movie is being pitched to me as something that's about like the sort of greatness of the human heart you know I'm like I'll be the judge of that but is that because you think a film like that is not possible? no it's not

I think I don't like it when it's a selling point I don't mind going and seeing Field of Dreams and just being like in tears but I kind of want to get walloped by it I don't want going and seeing Field of Dreams and just being like in tears. Yeah. But I kind of want to get walloped by it.

I don't want to be told this is what your emotional reaction is going to be once you see them. You needed to see for yourself that Driving Miss Daisy was an important film. Yeah, because I thought

it was just about you know, gas efficiency. Yeah. Saudi Chris. You mentioned Marianne Jean-Baptiste. Yeah. Mike Lee's Hard Truths

is a film that's coming out yeah in January I think is its wide release and is it 30 years since Secrets and Lies I believe it is 30 years

because we just did a draft and I think maybe Secrets and Lies is 96 but it's fairly close Mike Lee a filmmaker we've not had the opportunity to talk about

on this show I don't think ever is Peter Liu Mike Lee's last movie yes that's a long time ago that is certainly filmmaker we've not had the opportunity to talk about on this show i don't think ever is peter liu mike lee's last movie yes that's a long time ago that is certainly a pre-pandemic movie it's been a long time obviously one of the great living directors a filmmaker whose tv work in britain i am still catching up on and there's so many films do they have any like box sets for that or uh i'm i think in england they do so maybe next time we're in England we can try to cop those they will pop up

on the Criterion channel from time to time but just his feature film work is amazing obviously Naked Secrets and Lies a whole host of amazing movies Mr. Turner

yeah I am looking forward to this looks like a movie about a really unhappy person does he tend to get more recognized for awards for his period pieces

I think so Vera Drake Mr. Turner. Peter Liu was kind of ignored. Very sad movie. Very intense movie. He's so good. What was the Sally Hawkins film that he made, though? Happy Go Lucky?

Yeah. That was recognized? That's right. I don't know. Just an amazing director. Hopefully, we'll have an opportunity to talk about him more on the show as the year goes by. I don't know if this is like a Best Picture contender. The one last thing that happened

this morning is Friendship aired. Friendship is the new comedy starring Paul Rudd and Tim Robinson of I Think You Should Leave fame. Aired where? TIFF. Okay. And I got a direct message

from Adam Neiman. And he said, this movie is incredibly funny. As you know, Adam Neiman, tough critic. You know? He does not uh he does not Brooke bullshit and is this a dramedy like does

it have I think it's a pure comedy oh great fantastic that's all I know about it a friend of mine produced it which is great but that's all I know awesome um Tiff we'll see we'll have the

full wrap-up later next week shall we talk about Rebel Ridge I had one more award season question shoot of the performers because you were talking about i haven't seen a five-star movie yet have you seen a five-star performance have you seen one that's like we will be having multiple round tables that this person is featured in and they will be nominated for best actor or best actress That's a really good question. I'm going to pull up my spreadsheet.

Sure. As I do. I'm going to say I don't think so off the top of my head. I mean, Martha Stewart in the Martha documentary, that deserves awards. She's particularly good. You know, I don't think you're really going to respond to Amelia Perez that well, but I think you will respond

to Zoe Saldana very well. Yeah. There's parts of that story that are tailor-made for you. I heard you guys talking about it. You didn't talk about Lioness. I know. You were like,

where's she been? I thought of this. Try not to acknowledge television if we can avoid it on this show, but I know that you've been saving space for her. Yeah. Which is really exciting.

I don't think I've seen a, I mean, there are a few things that are obviously very good. Ralph Fiennes at Conc which is really exciting. I don't think I've seen I mean there are a few things that are obviously very good. Ralph Fiennes at Conclave is very good. Daniel Deadweiler

in The Piano Lesson is very good. But nothing that rises to the level of like I can't believe this happened. This is so extraordinary. And that may still come. You know there's still

a lot of movies yet to be seen. Have you? Willa Fitzgerald's Strange Darling? I mean an incredible discovery. You know, a person that I don't know if I had seen before.

She was on a TV, what TV show was she on? She was on Reacher. Reacher. First season of Reacher. You haven't had a chance to talk about Strange Darling. I haven't,

but I think it's going to come up in Rebel Ridge. Okay. Well, let's talk about Rebel Ridge. So this is Sonia's fourth movie. Been waiting a long time

for this one. He wrote and directed it as he usually does. Stars Aaron Pierre. He also edited it. Interesting. Has he edited his other films? I think he did Been waiting a long time for this one. He wrote and directed it, as he usually does. Stars Aaron Pierre. He also edited it. Interesting. Has he edited his other films?

I think he did Blue Ruin, but I can't remember. Okay. That obviously would be made on a shoestring budget. This is a little bit of a bigger production. A Netflix movie. It's available on Netflix right now. Aaron Pierre is the star. Don Johnson, Anna Sophia Robb, David Denman of The Office fame. Your boy, Emery Cohen.

Absolutely. Like barbecue cooking, letting the brisket smoke for so long. The premise of this movie is a former Marine confronts corruption in a small town when local law enforcement unjustly seizes the bag of cash he needs to post his cousin's bail. The movie is entirely explained in the opening seven minute sequence in which Aaron Pierre, who is a very large black guy riding on a bicycle, listening on his headphones to metal,

does not hear a police cruiser maiden, right? Yes. He's listening to iron maiden. A police cruiser is chasing him for what the officer says was two miles and attempts to pull him over. And when they, he does not pull over,

they clip the bike and he skids out and falls off and then they cuff him interrogate him and eventually seize his cash the movie itself is obviously a portrait of civil asset forfeiture which is a practice that some people may or may not be familiar with that where law enforcement can take items that are on any person during any routine investigation and never give them back essentially yeah and that there is this very uh incredible new yorker feature from 2013 maybe a little sarah stoneman wrote it and reading this if you watch rebel ridge and you're like really it's It's real. And you should read this feature because it's just like people who are driving to go look at a pumpkin patch and then they

get arrested, have their car and all their cash seized. And it's like because we think you might be using this for a crime either now or in the future. We've decided to seize this. It essentially funds either greedy or dilapidated police departments,

largely in rural America. And it's almost too crazy to believe, but it is true. The feature story in The New Yorker and the film itself are both wildly infuriating. In the story, it's in an intense emotional disturbing way in the movie it is a strong idea and also an incredible way to get you rooting for a character yeah and you know aaron pierre's character the marine is just like an extraordinary find an incredible he's he's an exceptional character in a lot of ways we'll talk about why this movie is like there's a lot of different kinds of movies in one, but it is the kind of movie that is less common now

than it used to be. Hence thinking of the garbage revenge thing where you've basically got one guy who spends two hours working to seek vengeance on those who did him wrong. So you really like this movie. I love this movie. This is like, this is really like,

honestly, it was like a revitalization where i saw a bunch of stuff because it was so so hot and i've really been like in a groove watching stuff recently so i saw strange darling and i saw his three daughters and blink twice and just really had like a fun weekend of watching this was definitely like the highlight i wish i could have seen it on a big screen. But I thought this was excellent. This is like the kind of B-plus genre movie that gets me up out of bed in the morning. And I loved

how procedural it was. So even in the opening scene that Sean's describing, and if you've you know, hopefully you've seen it already if you're listening to us. Everything about it, even though it has overtones of racial bias and uh oppressive like institutional like police like over overstepping their bounds

everything about it is like the cops have an answer for everything every time Aaron Pierce Terry character is like wait a second I'm not doing that wait a second why are you doing this why did you put me in cuffs like why are you doing this they have like some weird get out of jail free loophole that they're using and you know there is like a slight difference between the way the David Denman character and the Emery Cohen character are approaching it but they're both pretty nuanced characters like they're fully fleshed out all of the characters in the movie are very fully fleshed out even though none of them are ever like, the reason why I'm like this is this.

It's like, there is not a lot of personal baggage that comes along with this movie. There's a lot of information, a lot of exposition. But I just thought it was such a lean, mean fighting machine, except for a little bit of fat in the middle. It's a little draggy in the middle. That is my one criticism as well. And there is a lot of procedural exposition, but but it's essentially necessary because in addition to being an action

thriller and a movie that is loaded with ideas it's a kind of explanation of process you know what i mean like the the actual investigation the mystery aspect of it of you know how why is this possible how can i get this money back and how can i then free my cousin yeah is you know it why is this possible? How can I get this money back? And how can I then free my cousin? Is, you know, it's a bit of a detective story as well. This is why I love movies that are, like genre movies like this. Because Sean and I just, I mean, Sean just explained the opening of the film

and it sounds very, very contemporary. Don't need to know any of that. It's a Western. It's about a guy who arrives in a corrupt town and tries to set it straight, which is the plot of 70% of Westerns made in this country for close to 100 years. And the reason why I love analyzing movies like this is because you can not only draw these through lines through genres, but you can draw through lines through eras of American history and see how little things have

changed. You know, these ideas that we had about the 1870s are still true in the 2020s. It's like, it's what, why I kind of really enjoy these films aside from incredible fight choreography and like problem solving. In certain quarters of the world, we live in a moment where opinions about the police are pretty hard lined. They're very black and white, you know a moment where opinions about the police are pretty um hard-lined they're very black and white you know a cab and fuck the police and that is a very predominant point of view especially here from people who live our kinds of lives in major cities this movie at times it feels very much in line with that line of thinking and at other times and if you listen to sonye talk there's something else going on underneath the surface.

I think he seems a little bit reluctant to maybe publicly decry all police officers. But even more so, I think he is highlighting something that you noted with the civil asset forfeiture practice, which is basically these are poor communities that also have broke police departments that are effectively being incurred upon by either state police or federal organizations. And so they're doing things that they normally would not do to survive. And so the movie has this like. It's not a preachy movie I guess is my point. Is that there is a kind of nuance. And there is like villainy for sure. And Don Johnson plays a fairly uncomplicated villain in this movie.

But not like a Django villain. No. No. He's kind of a desperate guy trying to hold everything together, but he's been completely turned by that desperation. But the guys who work for him, the women who work for him,

it's a little bit more shaded. And so I appreciate that the movie was not, while it is very clear that civil asset forfeiture is evil and some of the people who practice it are evil, that it isn't this like

simple blank, you're're good you're bad that's the end of everything i find that fascinating too in a movie like this especially a contemporary streaming movie where you're just like expected to be spoon-fed how to think about something and this movie doesn't do that so i don't know if you use this comparison for you as well but i've seen sonia describe this movie as first blood meets michael clayton that is what he said to me. I said to him, this is a Steven Seagal movie with a New Yorker subscription. And he said, actually,

sir, this is Michael Clayton meets First Blood. With a long reed suit. I think that that sort of equation is what's at the heart of this movie, which is like a very intellectual way

of looking at an action film, a very present tense way of looking at a fucked up situation where it's very, several times, I was like, I hope he kills all these cops. Yes, totally. Totally.

You are literally rooting for him to mow down 30 cops standing in a line. Because there's a turn in the middle of the film and for a while you're like oh it's kind of cool how this Terry character is going right up to the very edge of doing something that could be considered assault or right

up to the edge of something that you know obviously it would be by these cops but you could see him being like I'm not going to do. I'm just going to disarm you. But then something happens in the middle of the film and you're like, oh, now he's going to tear somebody's trachea out. This is going to be incredible. And it never goes there. And I was curious whether I associate, I think probably because of Hold the Dark and Green Room, Saul Nia with like a little bit of a bloodlust, which I also have when I'm watching movies. But you have to get used to the fact that this is more like, it's more like Batman. It's more like, I don't kill people. You know, I just disarm them.

That is part of the magic of the movie is that it's a movie that is visceral, but not ultimately violent. It's not cathartic in that way. Definitely not. And the movie does not pay off at the end either in the same way that you might expect a movie like this would. The way that Hold the Dark did, which ended in a brew shootout.

This movie ends completely differently. But even the first series of interactions that the Terry Richmond character played by Aaron Pierre has with law enforcement, he's extremely still. He's polite. And you watch his character code switch throughout the entire movie in fascinating ways.

His character is written really well. And he is very, he also is kind of procedural. Like he knows the right moves to make to not escalate. We learn at a critical juncture in the movie, about 35 minutes in, in a hilarious bit of exposition not only is he a former Marine

who though he did not serve overseas is an expert in Jiu Jitsu and close combat close combat

yeah martial arts close combat so we see a lot we see a particular showdown with he and the Don Johnson character in which

he disarms him and then disarms the Emery Cohen character it's so fucking exciting and no bullets are fired and actually several times a gun is disassembled

and I'm like this is just thrilling to watch a man take this gun apart and it's a it's a testimony I think to a very slick

sleek well considered style of film action filmmaking that is rarer and rarer. Yeah. Where the composition and what you see and what you don't see. When you first see Terry's hand, reach down and grab Don Johnson's hand where he's holding his gun.

When you first see him, remove the barrel of the gun. When you first see him basically like chokeslam Emery Cohn's character, disarm him. It's just beautifully cut. If you've watched a thousand movies you might not think very hard about it in the moment but as somebody who watches a lot of contemporary movies they very rarely feel this clear i felt like the entire time i was like this is the perfect marriage of a story with the current uh expectations production expectations of movie making where it's like this is shot in louisiana

which a lot of people shoot movies in louisiana or georgia or wherever because of tax incentives but then they'll say like this is dc or this is supposed to be you know new york or this is supposed to be like fresno or whatever you know i always laugh about den of thieves being set in like gardenia but it's shot in atlanta this is like no this is louisiana this is referring to parishes this is talking about the state police these towns are incorporated like they have very there's a marshlands yeah and they have really like real economic and political concerns that are specific to that part of the country there's also 15 people in this movie a big bugaboo i have with a lot of contemporary filmmaking is that they feel very empty

because I feel like they're cutting costs on extras and they're cutting costs on the amount of people they're filling out. Scenes where there normally would be crowds, restaurants, bars,

like walking down the street. It's like, why is nobody here? This film, you get that because it's a ghost town. Small town. Yeah.

And it's basically got a courthouse, a bar, a couple of dilapidated houses. But the cops are kind of using this whole place as an ATM and also have to pay off their own debts, both moral and economic. So it's just everything about where it is, it gets down to that scene that we're talking about. It's outside of this police department where they have torn down the jail that they have. And they're sending their guys to state because they're going to build a new jail,

probably to house more people so that they can do more civil force pictures so that they can bang people up for more 90-day misdemeanors and stuff like that and then just let them go. But in the meantime, this this vicious circle that they have and there's a bunch of guys who are like working on the the new jail construction workers they all have guns uh there are three cops the terry character very wisely is like i know there's

a third cop here because here's the board scheduling it everything about it is like ah shit he thought shit, he thought about this. He thought about the fact that there wouldn't be any road traffic for this. There's not a lot of action going on in this town. It's probably summer, it's high. Everything about it is considered and everything about that scene, that's where the Michael Clayton part comes in because the conversation between the Don Johnson character and the Aaron Pierre character is is so electric because Don Johnson is doing this whole scene being like I got this motherfucker like and and now like I've pulled out of this deal that we made and he's gonna I'm just

gonna like end this guy's day and the whole time he's just like here's here's what you don't understand is that i'm running out of letters which is one of my favorite lines of the year so far and he goes through this acronym called pace where he's like you can apply it to anything but it's essentially like primary alternative contingency and now we're at e and he's like you wait you're waiting to find out what e is and they cut back inside and em Emery Cohen has finally got his Wi-Fi going. And finds out that Terry's on the fucking Jiu-Jitsu Wikipedia page. And you get this dance.

It's an incredibly choreographed scene. You're right. I got so buzzed off of that. So Terry is apparently one of the key practitioners, maybe even one of the creators of MCMAP, which I assume is Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. And throughout the movie, we see him essentially

getting cops into various chokeholds and destroying them, which is just a really fun idea for an action movie set aside everything else that is baked into it. There are a handful of other really, really exciting moments.

You know, Sonia is a good combination, I think, of a filmmaker with a lot of craft and also a lot of other really, really exciting moments. You know, Sonia is like a good combination, I think, of a filmmaker with a lot of craft and also a lot of explosiveness, which is a very hard combination to find these days. One in particular that I really like is the pulled over car showdown where Emery Cohn pulls him over. Yeah, and tries to be like, gun. Tries to murder him, essentially. He's a bunch.

What other sequences did you like a couple of the more quiet scenes especially um i thought that the scene where they dropped terry off at the hospital and uh he's in cuffs in the back seat so basically um terry's cousin mike is in jail he needs to get out of jail because he has a witness like he was a cooperating witness on a murder case. And this gang is going to get him if he's in jail for too long. He goes to the general population in the state jail. And he gets moved to state jail.

And Terry's like, I have to get him out today. Like in hours. So a couple of things happen. And David Denman's character, who's one of the cops, and Don Johnson drive Terry to to this prison and he doesn't know where he's going he doesn't know why he's in cops he doesn't know what's going to happen don johnson does this monologue essentially about why they're doing what they're doing with the civil forfeiture stuff which is to your point interesting and uh i don't want to say it like absolves him but it certainly explains him a little bit it clarifies why there's doing what they're doing.

There's a great line where there's this thing about how they've been using the civil forfeiture money and had a margarita party with it, or has a frozen margarita machine. And he's like, well, we got to have our fun doing this too. They get to the hospital. It's a hospital they've been going to. And there's just such a sad line where he's like,

I have to uncuff you because you need to be uncuffed when you hear this and they tell him that mike has been killed in prison and they uncuff him because they they assume he might attack them yes and if they're gonna kill him they can't have him in cuffs and i was like this is such a fucked up country. And this is such an amazing portrait of that. It's a very sharply researched and observed script. He makes a lot of really good choices like that. That scene is heartbreaking. Yeah. And one tear.

Yes. When Aaron Pierre turns and he's like, I fucking told you to David Denman where he explains, it sort of clarifies the first 10 minutes of the movie. So that scene which you're expecting like, okay, he's gonna crack this guy's skull right now. He doesn't. He just cries and he's like,

I give up, basically. And it's like a really, really brave thing to do because every person in the audience is like, fuck these cops up. Yeah, shoot them in the face. Yeah, exactly. And they don't do that. And the movie is restrained in that way

despite all the choke slams I'm talking about. It is seriously restrained. There are a couple of other really, really compelling moments. The one that sticks out to me that is unlike anything else in any Sonia movie is the chasing down the bus, which happens a little bit earlier

than the sequence of the film. That's like 80s, like, we got it. Uplifting, almost like a sports movie. It seems like I'm breaking away. Yeah, totally. Where he's riding on his bicycle and he's riding alongside his cousin's bus

which is transporting him to the state jail and he's explaining to him like I'm gonna get you I'm gonna get you I'm gonna get the money back I'm gonna get you out and he triumphantly

like keeps up the pace with the bus all the way up to the driver all of the men on the bus are cheering him along and it's this like big swell and uplift and it's the kind of scene you would see at the end of a movie yeah not at the end of the bus are cheering him along and it's this like big swell and uplift and it's the kind of scene

you would see at the end of a movie not at the end of the first act of a movie but again like a different kind of slightly different twist on

the kinds of movies that he usually makes the kind of storytelling that he usually does but it's really effective one other thing I wanted to shout out and we could kind of

transition into maybe some of the issues we might have but this is like a four out of five for me, so it's really, my issues are minor.

There's a scene kind of like two-thirds of the way into the film where Anna-Sophia Robb's character named Summer finally goes to this mysterious Chinese restaurant, which has been in the background

of a lot of dialogue and, of course, in the movie, where it's this place that Terry has cashed out his investment in this Chinese restaurant a couple of dialogue and of course in the movie where it's this place that Terry has cashed out his investment in this Chinese restaurant a couple of towns over. And we don't really know. He keeps calling.

There's code switching going on with the Chinese restaurant host like when he picks up the phone. But there's like a mysterious Mr. Liu who works there. We get a little bit of insight into this world that's kind of outside of this town We get a little bit of insight into this world that's kind of outside of this town

and maybe a little bit of his background and his history. I would never say we should get a Rebel Ridge 2, but there was a little bit of like Terry's like military past going on there. And the courage to kind of have a whole side world that you only get to see for like eight minutes, but plays a part in the film itself, I thought was so awesome.

And that scene between Anna Sophia Robb and Mr. Liu, where he's like, he was in Korea. He's like a field medic in Korea. And she's like, thank you for your service. And he was like, he's Chinese. He was on the other side. And she's like, well, it's great. We can all work together. Yeah, that scene is really, he's Chinese. He was on the other side. And she's like, well, it's great. We can all work together.

Yeah, that scene is really, really good too. I think to me, it's not a failure of story. It's just a failure of length. The notes that I have. Yes. Where we move a little bit too slowly through the discovery of what's actually happening. Where it's pretty clear, actually,

if you're watching the first 40 minutes closely, what's already going going on but then there's a sort of detour to a judge played by judge james cromwell who sort of like is literally strapped to a chair explaining why things are happening yes there's a sidebar where steve zistis's character from your beloved togetherness he's very good in this movie um Who is a clerk at the local courthouse. Explains why certain things may be happening as well. In a cool way though. I liked how a lot of the movie is taking things up to the edge of legality. Or like what would be simple assault versus what would be like aggravated assault. Yes.

It is again the Clayton stuff. And he's like I cannot aid and abet you. But like maybe I can tell you whether you're asking the right questions. And they're still like you're a fucking coward but like it's an interesting execution of that exposition scene but in that you know one hour to one hour and 40 minute mark we have a lot of like Anna Sophia Robin Aaron Pierre go here and if you're Robin Aaron Pierre go there so they have to set fire elaborate way to tell us that she used to have a heroin problem yes put it that way yeah and she also you know sort of has

the b-plot of the movie where she's in recovery. She's fighting for custody of her child. I think fairly sensitively drawn. I, you know, I hadn't really seen her in a whole lot. No, it's interesting. And she wasn't originally supposed to be this character. No, she was supposed to be Erin Doherty,

who's the Princess Anne to Josh O'Connor's... In The Crown. You know, Prince Charles in The Crown that season. She's awesome. I would have... I mean, this is an interesting first cast and it's a great second cast. Yeah, so let's talk about that a little bit. Prince Charles and the Crown that season. She's awesome. This is an interesting first cast and it's a great second cast. Let's talk about that a little bit. One fascinating thing about the movie, which I talked to a little bit with Jeremy,

but not too much, was that this movie started filming five years ago and it originally starred John Boyega. It's been reported that Boyega, at a certain point during the production of the movie, which sounds like it was a difficult production in Louisiana in the heat with all this physical activity certain point during the production of the movie, which sounds like it was a difficult production in Louisiana, in the heat with all this physical activity,

he left the production. He cited family matters that were the reason that he left. There's been some reporting that suggests otherwise. But when he left, the movie stopped. Yeah. The movie went away. There was another shutdown during production after they found another actor as well for this movie.

So there were two different shutdowns over the course of four found another actor as well for this movie. So there were two different shutdowns over the course of four plus years he's been making this movie. What's fascinating about that is two things. One, that he's got such a coherent, tight movie. It's insane. It's weird that he made this very sharp movie. I was like, did you shoot this in 14 days?

This is crazy. It does not feel like a movie that has been absolutely mangled. And then the other thing is just that he got Aaron Pierre. Yeah. Who is... Hit the lottery. This just unbelievable, fully formed action star.

Yeah. Who has, you know, appeared in a few things. He was in the Underground Railroad, the Barry Jenkins series. He was in Foe, the Saoirse Ronan, Paul Mesk movie that came out last year. Yeah, he's the guy who comes and visits them and tries to get them to sign up. He is actually the standout of that movie. Yeah. But man, he's just like a locked and loaded,

forgive the pun, action star in this movie. Loaded away. He's so good. Yeah, and you mentioned, I think that he is someone who, he's British, he's playing an American Marine, ex-Marine. He does a really good job of how he talks.

He's going to use this voice when he's talking to a cop who's got like how he talks like he's like gonna use this voice when he's talking to a cop who's got him in cuffs he's gonna use this voice when he's shouting to his cousin on the bus he uses this voice

when he's talking to Mr. Liu to the summer character to Mr. Liu it's a really really interesting detailed nuanced performance it's so physically controlled

it's actually quite beautiful to watch how he holds his body. He often has like his two hands kind of like in front of him. So he's like at a position of readiness, but also trying to communicate like, I won't do anything if you don't do anything, you know? He does this thing with Don Johnson in the scene that we kind of broke down in detail outside of the police station where he collapses the space in between them by like walking up very close to him

so he can't do any like, but it's like, he's not fighting him yet. He's just making it so that Don Johnson can't pull his weapon. And you hear Emery Cohen say, put some space between the two of you. Great performance.

I had loved, you know, in Underground Railroad, he's incredible. Another very physical performance of a different kind. But, is he playing Malcolm X soon in some movie?

Is that true? I don't know. I know he's on The Morning Show coming up. Are you serious? Jesus Christ. Well, so is Marion Cotillard. I mean,

I think it's like, that's like the investment plan is you just do an Apple show for four episodes. I get it and I hope he makes a lot of money but i i want great things for him yeah he's a really really exciting screen presence and he's very very good in this film um emory cohen just racking up great credits between this

and bike riders he's now like he's just a great guy to have in your movie he's one of the the ace slime balls of the 2010s and 2020s, which is pretty remarkable. I would not have guessed that's where he would turn out. But if you look at the Gambler and you look at Brooklyn, these are the two sides of Emery Cohen to me. And Place Beyond the Pines, right? He's like a sad kid in that movie, right? But in the Gambler, he's a tennis pro sleazebag.

He's a tennis pro who's also a weed dealer, I think. And in Brooklyn, he's like the sweet Jewish kid from around the corner. Yeah. And he's really leaned

more gambler in recent times. Sure. He's also, he's carrying some weight on him. Yeah, but he looks really good in this movie.

Like, he's always got the vest on. He's always holding the collar of the bulletproof vest. I saw just this morning Paul Walter Hauser. there was a tweet about how emory cohen is coming for paul walter hauser's corner which that was very funny and paul walter hauser retweeted it and he said i passed on emory's part in the bike riders but i went hard for his part in rebel ridge and emory

earned it he's amazing this movie is amazing. And I was like, I love the extended universe. That's pretty candid. Yeah, it is. That's awesome. It is. This is a really good movie. You had an interesting prompt here

at the end of this conversation about this movie. So it's funny that I saw this at the Among Strange Darling and Blink Twice, which I will effort not to spoil for people who are just listening

to this part of the podcast. But I would say that the three films all subvert contemporary cinematic expectations, by which I mean, I think we have kind of fallen into a little bit of a part here where you can kind of see the concerns of maybe studio executives or producers being like,

this needs to work out in this way, right? Like this person is, is the universe has told us that this person needs to be a good guy. This person needs to be a villain or whatever. And I get that. And I also think that these three films that I saw, including Rebel Ridge,

do a little bit of sly, like we're not doing that this time. Now, these three films are very, very different and do different things with their endings, but I thought that the Jess character in Rebel Ridge, it's an interesting twist where you're expecting this black woman cop to be the inside man for them and help them

and kind of does at the end end of the film but there is a very like bracing like oh shit she's on the side of the cops moment i was curious what you thought of that or if it jumped out at you at all i think it's kind of a relief yeah you know i think it's a relief that the telegraphed expectations of movie making are starting to come unglued a little bit i don't know if you can like chalk it up to any meaningful trend. I don't necessarily think so, but it's interesting to see people take swings like that. Well, I think part of what's good about it is very simple.

Strange Darling, Blink Twice, and Rebel Ridge, which I would say exist on a continuum of quality to me, are all original movies from relatively young filmmakers yep and god it's like the only thing i want in this world it's the only thing i want and when you're making a movie starring dr strange it's much harder to do what you just described it's much harder to be like ah actually he's not gonna do that yeah because there's a certain level of expectation that viewers have for their heroes especially their understood heroes or ch Chris Pratt in a Jurassic Park movie or you know what I mean? Like you just can't play as much with the boundaries of expectation. So it's a good

observation. It's been kind of a, it's been a pretty cool year for this sort of thing. So as much as I might gripe about the lack of a five-star masterpiece or a five-star acting performance masterpiece or whatever, all this other bullshit that is made up anyway. When you look down the list of, you know, you mentioned Civil War earlier, Love Lies Bleeding, Long Legs. Like, there's been a bunch of movies like this that are new stories, most of which are not based on anything. Yeah. And filmmakers have been allowed to cook. I don't know what why that is the case I don't know

why there isn't a surprising glut I don't like middle tier things that we whined about for 10 years I mean obviously like the each each one of these three films has a much

different story like you know Jeremy Saulnier is a pretty accomplished director although I think that you know it it's really cool that it's really cool that this movie wound up being as good as it is

given the production history of it, given the fact that his previous experience was doing two episodes of this third season of True Detective, two awesome episodes, and leaving that show. So I was like, oh man, I hope this guy's career works out. In the case of J.T. Molnar or Zoe Kravitz, I think that people are really using genre in really wise ways right now and it's kind of I I'm I'm I think you

and I bemoaned a little bit horror slipping into this monster is actually like a reflection of the grief you feel over the loss of your mother you know yep and we're kind of getting into a little bit more provocative fucked up places which is And we're kind of getting into a little bit more provocative, fucked up places, which is, I think where we want to live a little bit, or at least have both. If I could split hairs,

I feel like thrillers are doing better than horror movies this year. And that's a weird thing because thrillers in particular were a surefire thing in the movie, at the movie theater in the nineties. And they slipped out of fashion in a big way. Yeah. And then it felt like maybe they had moved to prestige television and that this wasn't

the kind of storytelling you could do. But these movies, they have elements of horror, sure, but they're mostly just thrillers. They're actually pretty grounded stories about real people doing terrible things, extravagantly bad things, but not supernatural. You know, not part of some extended mythos. So I like that a lot.

And that's a great segue to garbage revenge. Let's do it. We've done, we've done garbage crime. We've done, uh, space junk. We've done sky trash.

We've done, uh, garbage money. We've done, uh, what did we, what was underwater called? Garbage fish.

Garbage fish. You're forgetting, um, garbage lads. Garbage,? Garbage Fish. You're forgetting Garbage Lads. Oh, Garbage Lads. We also did Trash Special Ops. Oh, that was one of my favorite ones. That was a good one. Yeah, that one was good.

I think that's everything. That's it? So, seven. So, this is the eighth in this long-running series. Now, revenge movies are unto themselves a very important sub-sub-genre of movies, both American movies and international movies.

In Asian cinema, there's a long history of revenge storytelling, for example. Garbage revenge, you know, a garbage movie has to be different. A garbage movie can't be just like, you know, the man with no name movies. Like, it can't just be the good, the bad, and the ugly. And also, I would like to throw out the caveat that we can talk about prestige revenge movies, but that I am disqualifying

historical revenge movies in terms of, like, this is about a guy whose family was killed by an invading army or the Nazis or whatever and is now going to lead an army back against them.

It can't be like a mass amount of people. To me, garbage revenge is like one or two people going after, against crazy odds, going after other people. A vigilante story.

Yes. What else? What defines this? Because what i was thinking here is like there's lean and mean programmers like rebel ridge and then there's like i don't know carrie or park chan work movie where oh boy yeah yes like those are those are great american or international classics yeah they're not tony scott's 13th best movie you know is that what you're saying

about Man of Fire maybe or maybe that's what I'm saying about the movie Revenge yeah okay you know what I mean okay so it can still be

kind of classed up Hollywood productions but there's something like a little bit what is it like a little bit grimy a little bit mediocre

is it expectations that is dark which is that like audiences like watching these movies and they probably have daydreams about scenarios like this. And it really does get to the,

like when movies are able to dramatize like audience psychology in a kind of interesting fucked up way. So, I mean, we have some films on here. There's a whole sub genre of these movies that are rape revenge that are very much obviously out of fashion but it's like a thriving genre for like decades because i think it taps into an incredibly like dark place in the human psyche absolutely i mean promising young woman was just a few years ago that was a contemporary riff on a long history of rape revenge movies um the same goes for like lady snowblood is a rape revenge movie you know what

i mean there's i spit on your grave as a rape revenge movie there's also like prison revenge movies you know there's uh obviously the westerns that you're citing there's movies where like a crime has gone wrong and then the one outcast from the group needs to seek revenge on all of his other co-conspirators. There's movies about people getting revenge on society, you know, and the world around them and not understanding.

And, you know, these movies are not necessarily the most safely morally coded movies. They're often the opposite. They're really transgressive. They're also obviously really, really violent. Picking them is hard i mean we you know usually when we do this we name like 50 movies and then we're like you choose the 10 that you like and then it was like why didn't you pick the 10 but only you know the fun of the

exercise i think is locating a bunch of cool movies yeah and then saying whether you're not i think it's worthy of the title or not uh i have a question about these and this ties into sonia because one of the great contemporary revenge movies is his first film, or his first feature that was widely watched, Blue Ruin, which is also about the hollowness of revenge, how complicated revenge is, how it's not always as simple as you did wrong by me, and now I will do wrong by you.

Do you want to be confronted with such complicated emotions when you're watching a revenge movie? I think another example of this might be Unforgiven, which isn't obviously like, you want to see Clint fucking kill a bunch of people, but also gets into like, is this essentially like an empty hollow pursuit that destroys the exact derivative of revenge

as much as the people who were avenged? I thought maybe we could have this discussion by pairing two movies together. that destroys the exact derivative of revenge as much as the people who were avenged. I thought maybe we could have this discussion by pairing two movies together. Sure. So one movie that you have on your must-include list is Rolling Thunder. Another movie I'd like to talk about is Falling Down. Now, Rolling Thunder and Falling Down

also exist on a kind of continuum. Rolling Thunder, which is a movie that I assume we were made aware of by Quentin Tarantino, i was uh you know originally written by paul schrader but the script has changed it's about a vietnam vet who comes home from the war and it has a clear case of ptsd and um has been fully traumatized by the events happening in his hometown and is forced the conclusion of the film to go on a true revenge spree. The lead character is played by William Devane. You never watching the movie,

even if you are with William Devane and rooting for him, think he's going to be okay. No. There's never a time where you're like, this is going to work out. Falling Down is kind of similar.

Falling Down is a bit of a 90s curio about a man in Los Angeles who is stuck in traffic one morning and in a fit of convulsive discontent gets out of his car, leaves his car in the middle of the street, and goes on a series of encounters,

almost samurai-like encounters in which he seeks out violence and retribution. You never think that guy's going to be okay either. These are like the darkest possible films ever made that are also entertaining. You know what I mean? They're also like basically conventional. You're right.

Yeah, right. Do you want to feel more like that when you're watching a movie like this? Or do you want to feel more like, and honestly, First Blood is like this too. First Blood, which is a movie that is a little bit misunderstood because we think of Rambo 2 and Rambo Blood is like this too. First Blood which is a movie that is a little bit misunderstood

because we think of Rambo 2 and Rambo 3 and Rambo 4 but First Blood is a movie about a person with PTSD living alone in the woods trying to survive.

Just do my thing. Yeah. Yes. And people won't let him do his thing. Who's confronted by society and all of its problems. Or do you want to have something that's like

because this is what Blue Ruin is. Blue Ruin is a movie about like the messiness and the unsolvability yeah maybe my better question is is this the

the core idea of garbage revenge is whether or not we can leave the like misgivings we have about the revenge behind or like is it better if it's

out for justice if it's Steven Seagal and he is seeking retribution but he's cool calm and collected and he is oh no i like i like having people be i think that like john wick's a really good example of of something where it's like you fucking pushed him too far and now it's on you know and obviously like each one of these films usually has some revelation in it about whether it's the manner in which this person is going to exact revenge or the extremity or specificity of the crime that was committed

against them. So that would obviously be like rape revenge movies would go under that category. But yeah, I think I don't mind if the Avenger is brought down in the process of getting their revenge I think it's interesting but I think that like for the most part I like my crime committed midway through the first act or at the end of the first act to be like okay you did this to this person and then the next two acts are this person usually rebuilding themselves in the second act and then going ape shit in the third act right um and i like to have like a little bit of a purity of purpose so to me like falling down

is a little bit more of a societal commentary and kind of like a travel log i kind of you know what i mean like seeing the sights of southern California. Yeah, I think there's something about like point blank, you know, which is just like they fucked this guy up during a crime gone wrong and he spends the next two acts

just getting after everybody. So point blank, John Borman movie from the late 60s, which is one of the movies that sort of introduces the new Hollywood because of the unusual,

more artistic exploration of the character's psyche. Is that movie too classy to be in this? I think in retrospect, I think it's done so well that yes, it's not like- It's Donald Westlake adaptation? Yeah.

It's Parker, right? It's like, yeah. I'm trying to think of one that would be right on the line. Like Rolling Thunder to me is somewhere between prestigious and programmer. You know? Yeah. Probably has now gotten

like a more outsized reputation because of Quentin's support of it. It's a great movie, but obviously like... But it's pretty grindy. Yeah.

What about... What about the limey? Yeah, I think it's... I think that's a high-toned filmmaker downshifting to a programmer

which is you know ultimately like my favorite thing like basically if you are a genius but you're like what I want is a gnarly

little movie I don't know if there's anything better in the world than that that Steven Soderbergh directing Terrence Stamp yes blood on his face

screaming I'm fucking coming yeah that's I think it definitely fits the bill because also if you think about where he was in his career at that time and the movies he would then go on to make in the aftermath, it's kind of fascinating that he would make a garbage revenge movie,

but it almost is like he's taking revenge on Hollywood and the way his creativity was mistreated. What about, see, I feel like Death Wish is kind of a critical text and it is effectively a cheap genre movie. You know, it's a Charles Bronson movie. Charles Bronson made 25 movies between 1965 and 1985, most of which have these ideas in them, most of which are a hard-bitten cop

on the hunt for a serial killer or a lonely man who's been wronged in some way. Who goes beyond the law to get his, get his revenge. Yes. Death Wish isn't the only revenge classic in his career. Asked a friend for some recommendations. He said the very best revenge movie of all time is Once Upon a Time in the West,

Sergio Leone movie. But Death Wish, you know, it's still used as a framework for describing a movie it's death wish but do you like that movie does it fit the bill i do i think i prefer from that era ish i probably prefer the eastwood western revenge movies and honestly probably harry callahan as the dirty harry character if you call those revenge movies in the probably Harry Callahan as the Dirty Harry character if you call those revenge movies

in the beginning I think that they're a little bit more like murder mysteries and then they kind of expand to this cop going like ham on people but I think I prefer Outlaw Josie Wales and High Plains Drifter and those kinds of movies from that era to the Bronson cop movies

or Bronson Angry movies. Or Bronson Angry Man movies. What about the John Woo movies? I think of those as more as like crime films. It's the same reason why I think of like Braveheart. Hard-Boiled? Hard-Boiled kind of a revenge movie. Yeah, but like is Braveheart a revenge movie? And I think of that as like a war movie.

Even though it is basically an act of vengeance. Yes, I don't think there's anything garbage-y about Braveheart. No. What about the Northmen though? Boy, it's very an act of vengeance. Yes. I don't think there's anything garbagey about Braveheart. No. What about the Northmen, though? Boy, it's very high-toned. It's mystical. There's like a Pegasus in that movie.

You know? Can a Pegasus be in a garbage movie? I don't know. Well, we could do garbage fantasy. That's true. That's something we should consider exploring. Yeah. There's a lot of upside there.

On one hand, there's a Pegasus, but on the other hand, he's like, look at my muscles as I rip through these men with my bare hands. Yeah, he's like, I'm a bear man. And he's also always stating the stakes. He's like, I will avenge you, father. I will avenge you, mother. I will kill you. Yeah.

It's funny. Eggers is a tricky one because he has such extraordinary production design in his movies that immediately makes me think this is too good for garbage. Sure. Whereas like the Equalizer movies,

they're amazing. Yeah. I love them. The third one may be more than the first two, but they're like, this is a fucking program. Yeah.

This movie comes out on September 8th. It's for your dad. You'll enjoy it too. What does Bill call it? A sixer? Like going to the six o'clock screening

on Friday or the five o'clock screening? Yeah. I think some people call them nooners, but he calls them like a sixer. Yeah.

Can a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie be Garbage Revenge? I usually think of those as action. Commando? I mean, it's very much

like, do you consider undoing a kidnapping to be revenge? Because that's the same thing with Taken, right? That's a very good question. It's an interesting question for two men in their 40s to contemplate, is if you are liberating your daughter from either a cartel or a Balkan gang, is that technically revenge or are you just being a good dad that's just a family drama then at that yeah isn't it is basically

Kramer versus Kramer you know it's like we need to do garbage dads that's in our future where you out on four brothers the John's been a while since I've seen that film okay and they And they're brothers, right? That's what it says in the title, yeah. What else?

What are some of your favorites? Some of my favorites, we've talked about Point Blank and Rolling Thunder. Josie Wales, it's about a Confederate soldier taking revenge on Union soldiers. And you are with the Confederate soldier in that story. Me and Brittany Moems are going to be

hosting a rewatchable for Outlaw Jersey Wales. That's great. I have the limey. Okay. Just to be different, instead of Oldboy, I have Lady Vengeance, which is part of the Vengeance trilogy, but is an incredible... You've been really into Park lately.

Yeah, he's my guy. He's one of my guys. How is the sympathizer? Didn't see it. He doesn't direct all of it. And, you know, much like Jeremy Saulnier's experience on True Detective, I'm wondering whether or not the directors are like, you know what, man?

We can't direct seven or ten episodes of television. This is too many different cooks in the kitchen, and also this is not effective use of our time. Who's the last person to do that successfully? Is it Mike White? Yeah. He did direct every episode of The White Lotus, right? Yes.

And I think we've seen often people who are like, and this will be directed by this person. Like, Cary Fukunaga's going to direct Masters of the Air and then they're gone after four episodes or they're gone after three episodes. It's going to become more and more common to see the director do the pilot be an executive producer and then move on from those things

so i have lady vengeance i have john wick first one specifically because there's not as much mythology it's a very very very basic setup i think this is an important it's why i'm reluctant on the northman because it's like too much mythology. There's a lot of mythology there. Let's talk about Man on Fire. Okay. Let's talk about John Creasy.

I've always been a little bit more down on this movie than you. That being said, I think it is perhaps the patron saint of this genre. Yes.

You agree with that? Certainly of the last of this century. Yeah, I think so. Why do you think with the exception of maybe century. Yeah, I think so. Why do you think... With the exception of maybe Wick. Why haven't more big-time movie stars pursued this kind of movie?

And subsequently The Equalizer, because those are basically shadow Man on Fire sequels. I think a lot of this stuff moved into doing military stories. So I wonder whether Man on Fire is essentially the Chris Pratt show terminal list where he's like, you killed my buddies in a forward deployment and now I'm going to go down my list of defense contractors who are responsible for this. So I think it's getting pulled more into like very, you know, a global military action world rather than just being like, here's just a guy. He meets a girl. He's protecting her.

She gets kidnapped. He fucking tears Mexico apart looking for her. I guess Tom Cruise's version of this is Jack Reacher. Yeah, but he's more trying to solve a crime, right? He is more of a detective. Yeah. He's a little bit of a Terry Richmond in a way, but he also similarly is not trying to blow people's heads off.

He's trying to disarm them in a somewhat similar way. What about when the whole family is seeking revenge? You know, like Cape Fear. I mean, there's a world in which Cape Fear, Max just, it's Max's revenge movie. Oh, you're pro-Max. He was let down. You're in on Max Cady?

No, I'm just kidding. If Max Cady was down ballot running for state senate, would you vote for him? What do you think his platform would be? Libertarian? More tattoo parlors Yeah, more tattoo parlors Bring back smoking and movie theaters

Yeah, we need more cigar bars in this city What about Ingmar Bergman's The Virgin Spring? Did not make my long list Is there vengeance in that movie? I don't know if I've seen that one Yeah, definitely Have you seen Jackson County Jail? No I wanted you to tell me about this is there vengeance in that movie? I don't know if I've seen that one. Definitely. Have you seen Jackson County Jail? No.

That's Tommy Lee Jones movie. I wanted you to tell me about this. I can't explain it in great detail. I would say it's worth seeking out. What about the Abel Ferrara rape revenge movies? Like Miss 45. They're pretty effective.

Yeah. Would you want to do you want to talk a little bit about rape revenge? Spit on your grave would go in I don't know are we building

a hall of fame? Do you want to have 10 that we're walking away with here? No I mean you've cited most of your favorites and we can reiterate

them right before we wrap but I don't think rape revenge can be garbage revenge because they are an entirely different kind of study.

Do you consider westerns to be like a separate genre from garbage revenge? More or less. Okay. You know, I think if you were like, if you wanted to locate those two signature Eastwood movies, I think Outlaw Josie Wales and High Plains Drifter very closely align with what we're describing here.

Once you start getting into like High Noon is like, is High Noon, you know, that's not a really revenge movie. It's certainly not garbage. A friend recommended Hanny Calder, which is the very rare

Western rape revenge movie. Okay. Which I think stars Raquel Welch. I've never seen that movie. Me neither. I'm intrigued to check it out after this. Give me five. Give me your five all timers. Okay. I'm going to check it out after this. Give me five. Give me your five all-timers.

Okay, I'm going to go Point Blank, Rolling Thunder, The Limey. Okay. John Wick, Man on Fire, and if I can throw on a sixth of more recent vintage, Wrath of Man. Nice. The Guy Ritchie film that,

and I would honestly just put Statham into a garbage revenge patron saint role because beekeeper is essentially a revenge movie um but wrath of man is a really good kind of in the point blank vibe of job gone wrong and then this guy who got screwed is going around writing all the like sort of injustices i like like that. And that was also the beginning of the Hartnett Renaissance. Oh. Wrath of Man. Good point. Guy Ritchie is the one who saved him. We got to remember that. You saw Trap, didn't like it, thought it was the worst movie you've seen this year. I didn't think it was that. I told you I liked the first half a lot. I thought the second

half was quite silly. The way Trap is getting talked about on film Twitter is probably going to send me off of that where people are like, you don't know, like, look at this beautiful man. Look at these cuts. Look at these framing. Like,

and I just don't understand. You're zagging. I'm not zagging. I just think it's almost like, I can't tell if it's a social experiment to take this movie that was like quite, quite strange and be like look at citizen kane like it's it's not it's not that right it's not gonna be in your top 10 it won't

no i thought it was fun i stand by what i said it was a fun movie it it strains credulity i don't think its purpose is credulity i'm not like the plot needs to make sense but i don't think there was a plot in the second half of the movie it's just like there's a series of tunnels throughout suburban Philadelphia that this guy is exploiting to constantly evade SWAT teams that have been following him. Speaking of M. Night, we completely forgot to mention

Aaron Pierre's other significant role, which is as mid-sized sedan in the film Old. Yeah. Totally forgot about that. That's a very funny name. That's the the thing M. Night is just fucking with you yeah do you think he really thinks

a rapper's name would be Midsized Sedan no I don't come on have a laugh go to the movies do you think Midsized Sedan and Kid Cudi's character

from Trap need to make a movie together they have a whole album they have like a best of both worlds situation what about James Wan's Death Sentence

have you seen that film Kevin Bacon his entire family's killed and he's like fuck this I don't think I have it's an early James Wan movie it's somewhere between

atrocious and genuinely amazing did Kevin Bacon respond to you being like Kevin Bacon come on the big picture when Kevin Bacon did a big picture episode

I had a mutual friend contact him on my behalf that's really cool and he said I know Kevin. I'm going to get Kevin on the pod.

So stay tuned. But if you have Kevin on the pod, you just have to have him do third chair. You can't be like, I know you're promoting something.

You have to be like, Kevin, we saw Strange Darling this week. What'd you think? And he'll just tell us what he thought. I only want to talk to him about JFK.

Okay. Yeah. That's his best performance. Or Wild Things. So I said Point Blank, Rolling Thunder, The Limey, John Wick, and Man on Fire

with a shout out to Wrath of Man. What are yours? Well, I wanted to hold space for Blue Ruin. I feel like that's an important one and a more contemporary one.

In terms of super trashy, a movie that I really like that I think is a little overlooked is a late period Walter Hill movie called Bullets to the Head which we saw together starring Sylvester Stallone

it was incredibly stupid and incredibly good in my opinion you could look at a number of Walter Hill movies yeah Extreme Prejudice has some revenge it does

but it's also like more of like what I was talking about where it's like all this like military stuff going on yeah it's a bit more ornate Bullets to the Head is very very effective Sam Raimi's Darkman like all this like military stuff going on. Yeah, it's a bit more ornate.

Bull to the Head is very, very effective. Sam Raimi's Darkman is kind of an all-time revenge movie and an all-time like kind of down and dirty. And it's kind of a superhero movie, but not really. Speaking of also precursor to Taken, Liam Neeson being in a part like that. I mean, First Blood, you knowhmm. You know, First Blood, which is a movie that is based on a novel

but was not supposed to be some high-toned movie. It was supposed to be an action vehicle that Sylvester Stallone, I think, elevated pretty significantly. Would you consider

Deliverance a revenge movie? Rape revenge. Right? Mm-hmm. Has to be. What about... The revenge only happens in, like, one scene. Yes, that's true. And to be. What about... The revenge only happens in like one scene.

Yes, that's true. And the rest of it's kind of a survival list. How many times have you seen it? Five or six times, probably. Do you revisit any scenes? There's one other

rape revenge movie... I revisit Dueling Banjos sometimes. You do? Yeah. Just to see the plucking style? I feel like some college football team,

they've gone too far with anthems. Like with Texas A&M came out to Eminence Front. People come out to like Seven Nation Army. If I was the head coach of a college football team, I would have them come out dueling banjos. I think it would throw people off. I think the opposing team would be like,

what the fuck is happening? And you could have one side of the stadium go like and then the other half goes that would be sick so the implication there is we're about to rape you on the football field it's just to throw people off a little bit okay they'd all be shazamming like what's this song i don't know i'm so glad you're here and then they would you know we have three full months of this you know when when Amanda leaves. Just you coming up with ideas for college football teams. Did you watch a lot of college football this weekend?

I watched some. I watched Oregon. I watched a little bit of Colorado, Nebraska. Heard that didn't go well. Didn't go well for Colorado. And then Shadur Sanders was like, my offensive line sucks in his press conference. Very not ideal. How are you feeling

about the Philadelphia Eagles? I want us to play on Friday night every night. It's great to go into the weekend and be like, I'm already done. Oh, interesting. And football is pleasant.

And all I have to do is look at how I overinvested in rookie wide receivers for my fantasy team. Not the best move by me. Did you have any? Don't put me in charge of anything.

I have Roma Genze and Marvin Harrison. I was just going to ask you if you had Marvin Harrison. Didn't he have one catch for four yards? It was wide open seven times. It's not ideal. Kyler Murray can't see over the line. I have a whole thing where I think quarterback play is down. I think it's bad. You have a whole thing? Tell us more, Todd

McShay. I have been noticing that I think when we were growing up, guys knew when there was no play and they were just like, I'm like when we, when we were growing up, guys knew when there was no play and they were just like, I'm just getting rid of the ball. And now everybody's like, I'm a fucking electric playmaker.

I'm off schedule. You make it sound like you were rooting for Y.A. Tittle. And when things collapse, no, but like Romo used to do that. Just like, ah, shit. Just kind of like. Yeah. Or he would throw a back-breaking interception.

He was Tony Romo. Or an Eagles player would crack his back. That's right. But okay, so like Brady, Manning, that kind of stuff. It's like, oh, it's not happening. Get rid of the ball. Let's punt, get field position. So who were you watching that you felt like this isn't going well?

A lot of the young guys where I was just like, where the fuck are you going? The rookies didn't play well. Jaden, Caleb. They were just like, Will Levis was like, I'm going to do a fucking like behind the back pass you know what's been really tough

the Bryce Young experience I haven't really checked the Panthers for a while I uh tell you a quick little story here about unsafe driving uh

needed to get a little nap for my daughter yesterday and uh the car's been the best place to get it were you watching

Red Zone while driving and I put Red Zone on my phone and just cruised in the right lane of a very small highway in the northern part of Los Angeles. Were you on the two? I was on the two. Because I was on the five watching Red Zone. I wasn't watching.

I wasn't watching. I wasn't watching. I was using the audio feed. I'll tell you what I did. I put it on just so I could listen to it. That's what I did. And I tried to park and watch it while she was sleeping. And then as soon as I parked,

there was literally a park and ride in like Kinaloa Mesa, like super way the fuck out there. And as soon as I pressed, I braked and stopped and put it in park, she woke up and I was like, fuck, I just had to pull back out. But I left Red Zone Rockin' for like an hour and 10 minutes on the phone.

It was great. It's kind of a weird audio experience an hour and 10 minutes on the phone. It was great. It's kind of a weird audio experience because they never say what the score is. It's a good point. I also, Scott Hansen needs to pivot more quickly to the action that is happening and stop focusing on the thing that just happened. That's my note for him. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of like recapping the play that we just saw

and then not moving quickly enough back to the other play. For dads who are driving while listening to Red Zone. You know, I command performance for me. You know, I'm the audience. You guys ever think about how dudes just used to like call each other on the phone and then one guy would like describe the play happening to the other guy?

You basically were doing Red Zone. Sports radio was that for every Sunday. It would be like a guy on a payphone at the Bills Stadium being like,

it's 7-3! And they'd be like, now we go off to Indianapolis. That's true. There would be the reporter who would be on the sideline

who would tell you what had happened. just gave up another third down in completion. Was that better? Do I need to know how Bryce Young is playing?

That's the thing. If you watch Red Zone all day, do you feel like you've watched anything? Do you come away with any observations or any meaningful

conclusions? I'll tell you what. It's a very good question. More or less, I feel like what I have is a working ability to have conversations with my guys about what's going on in the NFL which I do value the same way like watching like

a highlight reel like shouldn't we just watch SportsCenter at the end of the night but okay here's the flip side of the point that you're making I did watch Lions Rams last night and then immediately after Lions Rams I was an episode behind on industry and I watched the Rishi episode of industry and you want to talk about that very. I do want to talk about it with you. So I watched Lions Rams and I was like, I feel nothing. This is, this is, I've just wasted my life. That's how I actually, yeah. And then I watched the Rishi episode and I was like, art is true.

This will solve, this will solve world hunger. This, this episode of television. This is exactly what we need in our society. And I love football, but there are a lot of times when I watch an entire game and it was ostensibly an exciting game. And I was like, who cares? This is meaningless to me. So Red Zone actually disallows that because I'm getting the hits, the endorphin hits over and over again. We forgot to mention that if you didn't watch Red Zone, if you were watching any of these games in full and watching advertisements, you may have seen an ad for Modelo about a guy who's the recruiter

who stands in the stadium and identifies people that he thinks are like good fans. And I guess gives them Modelo. They deserve Modelo. But it takes like decades for them to achieve good fandom. This commercial is directed by Jeremy Saulnier. He's like Santa Claus for beer drinkers. Yeah. I want, if I could have any career, it would be the Glazer Saulnier. Like I make a movie every five years. It's exactly the way I want it.

And in the meantime, I make fucking Dodge Ram commercials. That's the sickest career. Give me like two minutes on Rishi all right um first of all industry is unbelievable an unbelievable heater right now uh obviously you are you were the first responder and on on this island this industry island i give you all your props but it's been exceptional i was with a friend at telluride and he said he watched the first episode he had screeners and he was like fuck and then he watched all the episodes in one night oh my god I can't imagine he said it was

his favorite uh season of tv since Mad Men was on yeah and the third episode is just an amazing amazing amazing character study um it was it was rounders too yeah I was like this is exactly what I want I can't I can't ask for anything more. I, it's, it's really strange to be watching something that isn't like lost or 24. That isn't like a genre thing. And kind of be like crash Davis where you're just like talking about nukes

pitching. You're like, I don't know where it's going to go. Like, I just don't know what is going to happen. Right. It all on industry. And I get shot in the head right now?

I'm like obsessed with industry, but I'm like, you could tell me that Eric was going to go on a silent retreat and it was going to be a 60 minute shot of him meditating. I'd be like, all right, I guess. It's very exciting.

I really like what they're doing. Yeah. Any closing thoughts here? Do you want a garbage revenge episode of industry? Oh my God. Well, who would be our... I think we're watching

Harper take her revenge all season. I think you're right, but I think what I want is Rob. I want to see Rob break bad. So agree.

I said this phrase verbatim last night. I'm like, when is this dude going to break bad? I feel like we're building towards... They're really hollowing him out.

I don't know what they're going to do with him. God, it's very, very special. Yaz, I don't think she could pull it off. Okay. Harper, obviously, she's doing it right now. Who else is on the docket?

Eric, I feel like he might die at the end of this season. I'm a little concerned. Ken Long's giving an insane performance. Yeah, he's so fucking good. So good. Last Night's is fantastic. I can't wait till you see i'm gonna watch it tonight cr thank you thank you for having me uh let's go to my conversation now with jeremy

sonye in 100 meters turn right right. Actually, no. Turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one.

Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing, too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax.

At participating McDonald's restaurants. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. Very happy to be here with Jeremy Saunier. New film, Rebel Ridge. I have been jokingly telling friends that this movie is a Steven Seagal movie with a New Yorker subscription. So I'm curious, like, where did this idea start for you? When did the concept first hit you? That's exactly the concept is First Blood with a little bit of Michael Clayton in there.

I think, you know, it's always hard to pinpoint the origin of anything. It's like, I was in the shower, I was taking a jog. But I think it was at a crossroads for me. And to boil it down, I think I needed a hero. I think a lot of my films, and I still gravitate towards this something else with a competent protagonist someone who has a skill set and write a traditional movie hero role just for fun I needed a break from my own sort of filmography which is quite brutal and I think I did that by putting a traditional movie hero and drop them into a bureaucracy and not just like go straight to the uh the the mountainside finale just like get into like how how can i do that thing where i

have a fish out of water but with um as my friend put it like competence porn yeah yeah i mean there's something incredibly satisfying about watching Aaron Pierre's character succeed or not succeed and then succeed at times. I couldn't help but immediately think, though, of that Sarah Stillman story about civil asset forfeiture. I don't know if you ever read that story in The New Yorker like 10 years ago, but that was the first time I'd ever come across that concept. I also was lucky enough to see your movie without seeing any materials. Like I saw no trailer, no poster, no nothing. So the first 10 minutes of the film i was like oh no like this when i read that story i had the same feeling as watching the character go through that experience you know how do you like research a concept like that how do you decide to plug your character into this

kind of a world it happened organically but also it was engineered for this movie in that I'd heard about the practice actually through a Rolling Stone article. A colleague had come to me for development. It was an article on the police side of it, and that never ended up happening. Years go by, and I would get newsletters from the SPLC or read articles about it, and it's infuriating. And I thought, wow, this is the best possible thing, because not only was it infuriating and would sort of get an audience behind our protagonist as a victim of asset forfeiture, but it was one of the few things I was seeing, and 2018 is when I wrote this, that united the entire country, left and right. It made everyone furious. And it's just this very unjust practice with, you know, it was intended to be a tool when you see this person in Miami with a Lamborghini and a yacht and a mansion and zero proof of any sort of income, and you know they're a dealer, it gave law enforcement this tool to seize their property

and make them prove where the income is from, knowing they're a drug dealer or suspecting it. And then as that sort of practice evolved, it was adapted. Even seminars were given to local law enforcement to apply to everyday citizens. They're not tied to criminal charges. It became this horrendous thing where law enforcement can just take your property and not tie it to a charge. There's no conviction necessary. It's used to threaten people who don't have the resources to fight it. And every time it came up, it incensed the left and the right.

I said, this is a way to sort of unify people behind our protagonists from the very get-go. It's really, really effective. You know, you have a reputation for being quite exacting. And I'm curious when you're writing a screenplay, especially because I know that Macon, your friend and longtime partner partner adapted a novel for the last film so you wrote this story when you're writing like what goes into how long does it take what kind of a writer are you

yeah i have an idea and i research as long as i possibly can before I just get the bug and I got to start writing. I know where I want it to go generally, but I like to have natural zigs and zags in the screenplay. And I do that by not knowing everything. So I like to go in, set the premise and write myself into a corner, put my protagonist against the wall and then see if I can figure ways out. And I have a lot of fun doing it. You know, I never thought of myself as a writer initially. I was a director looking for work and just really tough to get handed like the silver platter with an amazing screenplay when you're entry level into the business. So I started hustling and writing just to have something to shoot. And I've grown to, it's now my favorite part of the process because you have total control and you have the creative fulfillment, but also there's a mathematical fulfillment, like that sort of the Tetris of it all and breaking a plot.

So I kind of let myself wander and then give it to Macon for notes, you know, let my wife read it, keep it pretty tight and then just, you know, make it. So you made your last film with Netflix and you made this film with Netflix too. Was there a reason why you stuck with them? Had you made some sort of larger deal with them? Like what led to them being the studio for Rebel Ridge? Yeah. Hold It Dark, my previous film, it's really about casting. It's the freedom to cast, for for me the best actor around and that is very difficult to do within a studio structure at a certain budget tier you know there's lots of friendly studios that you can get away with anything under x million dollars but whenever i i i'm precious about who's going to lead the movie it means everything and netflix allowed me in both instances to end up with the best

possible actor regardless of you know perceived market value that's it gets to be creepy when you're when you're talking about humans and and uh and and talent like that you know and but and i get it as part of like the foreign sales model of filmmaking but netflix doesn't need that, doesn't have that. You can just do it and they will find a path for it. I don't know if I've ever heard it quite explained that way. I've talked to probably dozens of filmmakers who made movies for Netflix, but that is a different incentive for a creative person than you typically hear. Sometimes it's, they give me the most money or I would want my movie to play in movie theaters or whatever the reasons may be. So that's really fascinating. So this is your fifth film. It's your first in six years. I want to hear in your own

words, like what was the production life cycle of this movie? Because there's been a lot of reports about what transpired with the movie. So from your perspective, like just what happened? I mean, it started out being the fastest production I've ever gotten off the ground. How soon after Hold the Dark did you start? I was writing the first act at Toronto 2018 at the premiere for Hold the Dark and very excited about it. Had momentum. I finished a draft, sold it in record time, and we were like ready to shoot it within

months. we were like ready to shoot it within months so in 2020 like a lot of people you're very close to production and uh you know covet 19 was a thing and we were still talking about possibly shooting and that when the reality struck i think it was the third friday the 13th i flew back in march march 13th had my had a little rap here. Nobody really flew in from the talent side. We were kind of three weeks from shooting. But it felt fine because there was far more important things happening than our film. It was all about safety and just taking shelter. Just from your perspective at that time, were you like, we'll be back in a week?

We'll be back in six months? Did you have an expectation? Because when you're getting ready to mount a movie it's a it's a huge deal right yeah well we had some intel actually one of our crew members was talking to someone in wuhan before press was coming down with the reality of it and it was dire so i think the gravity of it all bizarrely on our set we knew before most Americans. Because they were texting back and forth, do you want to see a video? Hell no.

Get on a plane. Go home. And honestly, I've been sprinting for home with my family, we utilized that situation as like, let's regroup. And we were okay up in the hills and very lucky. And so I just relished that time with my family and didn't think twice. Because again, like you could just tell there's just more important things going on. So really, bizarrely, it was totally fine to shut down because everyone was doing it and it felt like the thing to do.

And I was very weirdly proud of what we had assembled, what we had sort of lined up to be shot and just was at peace with it. You know, I'm definitely a control freak from writing to directing whatever but when things are out of my control i'm very laid back and this was certainly not something i could really pull levers on i was you thinking talking about that time i interviewed david lowry about the green knight and he talked about how he was similarly about to start a movie i think right around the same time, start that movie. And they had to pause.

And then he went back and rewrote the whole movie. And it completely changed the complexion of the story that he told. Did you think about that? Did you think, like, maybe I should get back in there and rework it? Well, so we went back for a year or two. And that's where very minor script changes went. Just to kind of like, studio came back with some notes and just wanted to make sure that we could really reach an audience. And I was pushing back and very natural back and forth and ended up improving the script.

But again, just little, I mean, like taking, because still Asset of Fortress actually became much more of a thing. I could remove some dialogue. I was sort of teaching the audience what it was. Take out the exposition. Yeah. There's enough of that that remains. But it was a good process. Again, we were all sort of locked down,

and I actually started writing a different script. So instead of digging in and reworking my movie, I think, you know, and David is an amazing filmmaker. I protected this movie from my own brain by not adding more scrutiny for fear of introducing doubt. You know, I do things with a certain momentum. And I wanted to make sure that that level of pride and energy that I had right before we shut down could continue upon us resuming production. So I just totally did the opposite. I did something else and put it out of my mind. And then when we came back um you know the second year it wasn't the right path for us it just it didn't work out um as we had hoped and for everyone's benefit we we decided not to move forward with that version of the movie um and we had to come back a third year can you tell me about

the period between the second year and the third year where you're like, this movie is going to go away forever? That's always the fear. But again, we had gotten far enough into it that I thought it was some of my best work yet. So I was extremely confident, but knew that we had we were shutting down year two led to a revelation. And that is Aaron Pierre, who, again, for the Netflix model, who knows he was coming off a lot of heat from the Underground Railroad. But is he a studio pick for at that time, that level of film with that many zeros behind it, you know, um, I, I needed a guy and I got on a zoom with him and it was just incredible. Like I knew that he was Terry Richmond within a few minutes of the zoom. I try to play it cool, you know, and just like,

let this thing play out. But, um, I saw in him this amazing potential. Not that I was the first. I was certainly like, my wife had seen him actually in Underground Railroad, you know, Barry Jenkins' limited series. I watched one half episode just like, and I said, oh, this guy has like legit chops. His physicality was actually not what I was looking for. He has that that super superhero physique and i wanted something you know more unassuming but his his demeanor

uh sort of offset that he's he's um he's very quiet he's very thoughtful um has this sort of zen quality that was like oh it'll still be a surprise when we reveal who this guy is because of his demeanor and his presence. So actually, between two and three, I was even more energized because when that clicked, it was all about preserving the energy again. And I confessed to Netflix after we wrapped the movie. No, actually, after I completed the editorial on it, I didn't read the script again. I never went back, didn't rewrite.

I think there were some notes, and I maybe have added an extra scene just in case to maybe use in the edit or not but by and large i had to put it in a drawer and shut it and trick myself because you know three years of one movie it's a lot yeah it's usually the the time it takes to start writing and complete a movie here i was doing it a third time but honestly you know this is not just like retroactively convincing myself that this is the case, but it was the best and only path for the movie. And I couldn't be more happy with it. He is amazing in this movie.

I think it actually works in your favor if you haven't seen him in anything before. I think it makes the movie more impactful. Yeah. Experiencing it. I had seen the Underground Railroad but I don't think I it had clicked when I was watching that it was the same actor and it does give you that like I don't know I don't want to make a comparisons and I made the Steven Seagal joke but there's a little bit of like Bruce Lee Charles Bronson like man comes to town thing that is so powerful and And I was wondering how much of the physicality of the role was like, did he have to train?

Did he have to learn how to do certain things in order to get to the place where he could be that character? Yeah, in record time. He was coming off of foe. Like he flew in and had to just cram. And we had this amazing stunt team. And luckily, Aaron had actually met and really sort of bonded with Keith Willard, who's our stunt coordinator on Underground Railroad. So he already called Keith uncle.

And there's real love there. And I was just happy to witness it and sort of- Serendipity. Horn my way into it. Like this relationship was there. The trust was there from day one. And they definitely, because the stunts in the film, it's not a lot of wire work or crazy spectacular stuff,

but it's really Aaron lifting a real weight in the Louisiana sun. And it was super intense. Luckily he could take it, but I mean, we put him through the wringer for sure. It was, it was rough. So you have this amazing knack for portraying a certain kind of violence. That's like usually very visceral, but often in close quarters, this movie is really, so I was wondering as a, as a writer and even, you know, when you're thinking about the filmmaking, are you, how are you choreographing that at the writing stage are you storyboarding these sequences like how do you visualize and execute on something like that especially like for example that first encounter with outside of the station is where

the tension is super high and you need to know like every move how do you how do you do that i certainly do a ton of research i'm'm an MMA fan, so I watch. Even to prepare for this movie, I rolled jujitsu for like one day and got my ass handed to me by my friend Gerald. Thank you. Because I wanted to get on the mat and see what it's like. Because the whole thesis was we're not going to do killing 38 people in a minute um everything is precious as far as grounding it in a certain amount of realism and to me it's like the small scale violence of a taxi driver this is not that horrendous but those finales leave my jaw sorry leave my jaw on the floor and

some of the bigger sort of spectacle films i just don't feel much so i just i just like tying in character and raw emotion with with the action so i did a ton of research but then you know you and i wrote in every little move but then you have to filter that through the experts and again this amazing team and so you'll kind of guide them through narratively what needs to happen like in more about like broad strokes of technique i want shirts ripping i want mostly when i was researching the the um tried and true martial arts forms forms as they are actually sort of practiced on again this is like youtube videos and and surveillance cameras it's mostly grappling and wrestling and sloppy shit uh you can have a problem guy expert come in and disarm somebody it's just like tossing them around grabbing a

knife whatever it is so i wanted i wanted to uh that route. Like, let's not compete with John Wick, which I really enjoy. Let's try and carve a new path for us. And it was all about infusing my love of hyper-realism and that texture, but having military advisors and martial arts experts help me through that. And there was some points where I fell prey to movie fighting and ended up doing this really cool choreography that was probably the most spectacular fighting of the movie.

And I had to cut it because it didn't feel real. Because it was basically a bad guy got the upper hand, and it felt like the narrative, like there has to be a moment where all is lost. But with Aaron's physicality versus this actor, I was like, bullshit. I've seen this before. There's no way that guy gets top control.

Aaron just goes right to the elbows and that's it. And it worked better. And that's the movie. It's like I had to cut out some amazing choreography just to keep it truthful. All of your films feature wrong characters battling a force that they cannot understand. They're kind of revenge movies, kind of.

But you keep coming back to this theme over and over again. Have you thought about what animates that idea for you and it being such a big part of the stories that you're telling? Better Off Dead. I want my $2. A justice seeker. Yeah want my $2. Justice seeker. And we all have our sort of workplace gripes. And I think just me being thrust into the industry, it's not like I have all this animosity. It's just like you just look at systems, corporations, productions, or, you know, I've had many jobs. I was tapping into the everyday angst that people experience. And I've likened it to a doom loop on a customer service call,

that kind of thing. And that's why initially I thrust Terry, you know, not into combat, but bureaucracy and the stifling sort of back and forth, trying to do the right thing, trying to abide and jump through hoops and leap hurdles and failing and flailing like every one of us. And that was sort of the inroad into how we earn the finale. Yeah, related to that, I think about this all the time. We talk about this with various movies and TV shows and various creative people who are getting older and succeeding in their industries. Like I know you were a hardcore kid, you were a punk rock kid. And a lot of the themes of your stories are about untangling systems, trying to reflect the humanity that is happening inside of those systems but you're doing

it for a big corporation maybe the biggest game in town yeah like how do you think about the cognitive dissonance of that experience i don't because it's it's not my job i cannot get into that as a filmmaker and in my my instinct is to protect the nest like the film is the art and sure like i want certain things out of a distributor but i i do not control that i cannot control that now maybe down the line i have it's a certain fork in the road but i do fall back this is why i went to netflix for hold the dark was that it's actually set up somewhere else first but you know it was like 15 million dollars Jeffrey Wright and Netflix is like we're in

and that's where I go I don't look past the movie honestly and I like to when I finally drag it across the finish line I just want to go on a ride so I go where they tell me to go and it's the fun part of I just want to go on a ride. So I go where they tell me to go.

And it's the fun part of letting go of my controlled freak nature and seeing how we can get this out into the world. And again, their reach is insane. And I'm excited to kind of release this movie and see where it goes. In the, even in the lifespan of the production, I think the relationship that the world at large has with the police has evolved in some respects and the movie is i think pretty

nuanced about how people operate inside of those systems and you could say well this is just a smaller town and this is the way that things work but i think people will extrapolate ideas about the way that we think about these things. I was wondering how you think about it, what you want it to portray or not portray, because it is a story of corruption, but maybe not a whole corruption. Yeah. And I think that's the nature of corruption. It was looking at people who on many levels disavow their own role in corrupt systems. And they are well-meaning people, but they convince themselves that they're not really a part of this thing by looking the other way or filing this thing over here, whatever happens.

The challenge for me isn't to put forth my beliefs or my angry punk rock kid roots. It's just to actually research every side of things and make sure that humans are on, if there's adversaries, uh, it's only fun when you really try to advocate for both sides. That's how you get real tension. Right. So, uh, with our protagonist, I mean, Terry Richmond, again, he's the most easily likable guy I've ever written. He's cordial.

He follows the rules. He has this respect that he tries so hard to sort of, you know, wring out. And then it's like, fuck it. But on the law enforcement side, the research indicates, you know, there's a lot of issues that are plaguing law enforcement now. But there's also a lot of pressure with Don Johnson's character, Chief Byrne. It wasn't about like, how do we twize this guy and, and let him speak and let him sort of convey the plight of a small town police force, which is part of my research in the case they are in danger.

You know, they are, they are getting eaten up by state police. It's mostly funding. But again, it's my job to sort of set the tone put it put the guys in the arena and advocate for like for green room too i had to always switch sides and not advocating for the nazi skinheads of course but as punk rock kids being told to do you know nefarious shit by their boss

um just as far as like playing chess. Where would you put someone to guard this? It's how the film wrote itself. And same with Rebel Ridge. I would just take the side, make a case, and create fireworks. I think it's a little bit lost on people. You mentioned First

Blood. The reputation of that movie versus what that movie really is and how that movie versus what that movie really is and how that movie is this really tragic epic emotional story about a person going through something profound um but also has empathy in both directions i feel like a lot of your all of your movies are not they're not black and white movies they're not moralizing even in a movie with nazi skinhead punk rock murderers you're still like there are people who are stuck inside of this world who don't know how to get out and don't know

how to understand it do you you know we're in a time of misunderstanding and miscommunication and mischaracterization and if you're trying to tell stories like that do you worry about your stuff being misconstrued uh not at all because i i had to do what's right for me and certainly narratively i was threading the needle it's just like how am i going to get this guy through this gauntlet again the research informs what i do not just to put in exposition and context but actually guides the story um and and sometimes you had to pull back because what's, what's out there with research

and police corruption is sometimes hard to believe. Ha ha. Uh, and that wasn't my, my, my intent.

It was, it was just to like create this story, uh, using a, a more sort of modern retelling. Mm-hmm.

And for, you know, and First Blood, of course, which is retroactively named Rambo First Blood, it's just First Blood. And it wasn't just sort of that political context. It was the craft level.

Like when you go back and watch First Blood, the anamorphic cinematography, the groundedness, it's like a motorbike in the dirt going uphill. And he doesn't expertly weave his way all the way up. When it gets to an incline, it just gets away from him. And it's real.

He's still an expert. He has a lot of trade craft. Um, but he's clearly human and he is improvising his way through this, this scenario. And, and just the way that film looked and felt is what I was really trying to sort of recreate. I really like that.

After the six-year journey, do you know what you're doing next? Have you started on anything? Always writing in the background. I think it's part of my freelance sort of mentality of being a crew member is I don't trust my environment. I've built my career.

I'm like, if I can do one more film that's well-received, I've earned myself a stinker. Luckily, this is not a stinker. So I feel liberated and I have way more opportunities ahead of me. But I always have something that I control that I'm writing because I don't like being beholden to other people, gatekeepers, whatever it is.

So keeping my options open, but always have something in my back pocket. Sticking to features? For now, it's the way my brain works. You know, I did a couple episodes of True Detective, which was fun. It was a different culture, you know, and I really am going back to long form in a feature format just if i have i think most of my films are a common thread would be immediacy and that's hard to do in the tv format so interesting yeah jeremy we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen oh you know i'm, I'm new to LA, and I've been going to the Egyptian a lot.

It's amazing, since it reopened. Amazing. It's amazing. And I've never been a print nerd before. And I've seen amazing prints recently. I saw the Manhunter print from Michael Mann's collection was mind-blowing. But, so this is an older film and i saw it again i think it was like about a month ago but john carpenter is the thing

and the print they should so i'm now a print nerd so this is like was this part of the 70 millimeter festival or was it before that this is right before that before that okay but it was such a pristine print it was like struck yesterday it felt that way i think i'd seen like an exhumed film version of the thing like it was an old battered print from the 80s the egyptian with that print was religious i mean i i was sort of struck by what the fuck are we all doing now? This is 82. The way it looked, the texture, the camera blocking, everything just blew me away. So that was, I brought my daughter to see it. And when the chest opens up.

I knew you were going to reference that. I looked away from the screen and just looked right at her. What was her face like? It was amazing. It's crazy how well that scene still works. You could have seen it a hundred times

and you're still on the edge of your seat. The way Carpenter in that film moves the camera I think is it's again I'm not

a huge sort of learned film scholar but I don't know if I've seen anything beat that. The simplicity of it all.

It's a great recommendation Jeremy congratulations on Rebel Rich thanks for doing the show my pleasure thanks to Jeremy Sonier thanks to CR Chris Ryan thanks to Jack Sanders and thank you to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Later this week, Chris will rejoin me and Amanda to talk about a movie that you've seen the trailer for 400 million times in the last two months. It's a good movie. It's called speak no evil. We'll talk about that and our top five.

Get me the fuck out of here. Movies. We'll see you then.