The Big Picture - The Top 10 Garbage Scorsese Movies and ‘The Alto Knights’

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to react to some trailer and release calendar news about ‘One Battle After Another,’ ‘Materialists,’ ‘F1,’ ‘Together,’ and ‘The Phoenician Scheme’ (2:41). Then, they discuss Barry Levinson’s new gangster movie ‘The Alto Nights,’ written by Nicholas Pileggi and starring Robert De Niro (18:58). Finally, they sketch out a new mini-genre, “Garbage Scorsese,” a list of films that are deeply indebted to the work of Martin Scorsese but not actually that good (43:45). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by Audi. The all-new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron is a huge leap forward, featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. Experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage, plus an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can kick back with a movie. Q6 e-tron is not just a new EV, it's a new way to experience driving. Learn more at AudiUSA.com. Always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. Join the high-volume trend with YSL Love Shine Plumping Lip Oil Gloss. Formulated for maximized volume and 24-hour hydration, this gloss delivers a non-sticky,

ultra-thin, glass-like additive texture in every shade, from bold berry reds and pinks to breathtaking nudes. Shine on with YSL Love Shine Plumping Lip Oil Gloss. Visit YSLBeauty.ca to elevate your lip game now. ["Dog on Fire"] I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about garbage Scorsese, trash Marty, Italiano Strazzate. On today's show, Chris Ryan joins us to discuss the new movie, The Alto Nights, which is directed

not by Martin Scorsese, but by Barry Levinson, and it stars Robert DeNiro. It certainly owes a debt to Martin Scorsese, who is a patron saint of this podcast. And with that in mind, we'll be breaking down our top 10 garbage Scorsese movies, a loving tribute to the films that are deeply indebted to, but not really on the level of Marty, I would say. Yeah. Chris, are you excited about this endeavor? I plead the fifth. I'm not going to incriminate myself.

I tend to incriminate myself. I tend to incriminate myself. Programming reminder, on Wednesday, the next installment of 25 for 25 continues. It is not the Alto Nights, I assure you. It'll be number 24. Question about the schedule. Did you not do your 25th film last week? We did do it last week.

And now the 24th film is this week. Yes, and then we'll take a little break. Oh, okay, so bi-weekly just means two times a month. Two to three times a month. Okay. We're gonna sprinkle them out. Yeah, there's 52 weeks, 25 films. We got a...

Starting in March, so I think we're down to like 30. So you guys are gonna go into 26 with this? No. We'll be done in December. Okay. In fact, maybe the We'll be done in December. Okay. In fact, maybe the last podcast you hear in December. Will be the number one film. Actually, I don't think that's true.

No, I think it would be- Because that's a pretty noisy release time. Yeah, and also the selection committee would be afterwards because we can't spoil number one. Maybe that's a New Year's Day release. Oh, maybe it should be New Year's Eve in honor of your list, you know? How wonderful. Yeah, yeah.

The Sean Fantasy tradition. That's nice. I like that. Yeah, let's do that. Okay. Let's talk about some news. A lot has happened. We double recorded and had a banked episode, the Tracy Let's Draft. People loved Tracy. They were like, bring him back all the time. I'm like, this is an acclaimed playwright living in New York

with his wife, Carrie Coon. We can't come on the pod every week, guys. I'm very sorry. I wish he could, but he can't. Trailers and schedule news. Something happened last week that is very important to this show, which is that Warner Brothers shifted some of the chess pieces on their board. One battle after another, the new Paul Thomas Anderson movie, it was announced, was moved, as we suspected, from August 8th,

only until September 26th. That's right. It stays on the 2025 calendar. And then one day later, we saw a teaser for the film. A teaser for the teaser. A teaser for the trailer. Yeah. And I watched it. Yes.

This movie features Leonardo DiCaprio, guns, a baby. I know I got a little nervous about that. Tiana Taylor. Sean Penn. Sean Penn's voice Sean Penn briefly seen the young actress from presumed innocent. Yeah, what's her name? Chase infinity is that her name? I think so. Can you look that up for me battle after another? Doing it doing it. Hold on. This is podcasting. Chase Infinity, that's right. Great job. With an I. You finished Presumedism?

I did finish it. I did not like the last episode. I thought the series through four episodes rocked. Yeah. Rocked hard. It took a really long time. It took a turn. I think I might get into Scott Turow, like the novels, this summer. That might be my read project. He didn't write One Battle After Another, just so you know.

No, he didn't. I'm gonna do Vineland and then all the novels with Scott Turow. That would probably be a nice palate cleanser. Yeah, exactly. One Battle After Another, will you watch the trailer? Cause you are a little trailer phobic these days. We just talked about this

cause there's another Andor trailer came out and we were like, should we even bother? Like we're sold, we have our money, let's go. And I don't want to get... But that was like a much more impressionistic, like, here are the themes, but not necessarily giving away any plot points. I think PTA is one of our greatest trailer cutters. And so I will be indulging in this.

I have watched this teaser 42 times. I had a text exchange with friends about this as well. It's sort of like, okay, what's your count up to on watching this? Which is a little sad, but also, and a testimony to where movies are in 2025. I definitely watched it multiple times, like, in a room with my two children. You know, and I was like, hold on, boys. Mom's gotta watch these machine guns again. It's quite a shot.

Pregnant Tiana Taylor firing a semi-automatic rifle. I'm really excited. I'm sure when the trailer comes out, we'll do something more specific about it. Will you guys do a Vineland Book Club episode or anything? I think it just needs to be a big part of the conversation of the movie, right? Because we don't know, it seems like a very loose adaptation that seems to be a modernization.

And taking a lot of the themes about power and control and government conspiracy into the 21st century. Also as discussed, Sean's having a hard time reading. I am having a hard time. Well, that book. Your post-lurit. Yeah. I mean, I read every day.

Okay, what? I read journalism, I read websites. Discourse. So yeah, I'm struggling to read fiction, but I will complete Vineland. And I'm not worried about that. And I will watch One Battle After Another trailer multiple times and the film multiple times as well.

September 26th. Mm-hmm. Would suggest that. Would suggest that it will go to a fall festival. In fact, I think the deadline report about this schedule shuffle indicated that. Now, PTA movies, I think I was sharing some of these data points with you. He has, his movies have played festivals. I don sharing some of these data points with you. His movies have played festivals. I don't know that he loves festivals in general.

Right. So there is a part of me that is wondering if he would hold it back entirely the way that Phantom Thread was held back entirely and Licorice Pizza was held back entirely from those experiences. But like The Master, I believe, played Venice. I think there will be blood was at Telluride. I think inherent vice was it. So it wasn't a can.

I can't recall where it was. Maybe New York film festival. So you're planning on Venice this year. I'm going to Telluride this year. You sure you don't want to come for a couple of days? I got to book the Airbnb soon if we want two bedrooms. So I can't go, unfortunately. I've made my plans.

I'll book my rooms. I will see Leo on the Lido. You may. I do wonder if after the disastrous premiere of Joker Folly-a-doooo at Venice last year. That Warner Brothers might be a little reluctant to put $180 million Leonardo DiCaprio movie. I feel like this might come up later. Yeah.

Yeah, it will. It will. Some more Warner Brothers conversation. In addition, Weapons, the forthcoming movie from Zack Craig, which has been described as a horror movie version of Magnolia, a multi-character arc horror story from Craig, has been described as a horror movie version of Magnolia. Oh, okay. A multi-character arc horror story from Craigor has been moved up to August 8th into that one battle after another spot. Craigor directed Barbarian, which Chris and I told you about quite vigorously a couple of years ago on the podcast.

While you had a concussion. Interesting episode of the show. Maggie Dillon... Stay with me. Maggie Dillon holds The Bride, which is a musical adaptation of Frankenstein's monster bride story, has been moved to 2026. Testing hasn't been good. All right. That's fine.

Other Craigor news, just as a little footnote, his Resident Evil project seems to have cast Austin Abrams as its star. So for all the homies who had Wolf's stock in Austin Abrams or Paper Town's stock in Austin Abrams, it's hitting. Austin Abrams also one of the stars of Weapons. So maybe that's where Craig got the idea from. Uh, other trailer news, Materialists. Celine Song's new film starring Dakota Johnson,

Chris Evans and Pedro Pascal comes to us June 13th, very soon on the show. An adult romantic comedy. What did you think about that trailer? I'm very excited for romantic comedies. And you're gonna have to apologize to Chris Evans, and that seems nice. Well, we'll see. You know, we'll see.

I'll be watching with interest. Um, romantic comedies, have you seen one? I have seen a few, yeah. Yeah, usually they're... What's your favorite? Um, John Woo's Hard Boiled. Okay. Great. I love to be few, yeah. Okay. Yeah, usually they're... What's your favorite? John Woo's Hard Boiled. Okay. Great.

I love to be among my people. No. Come on, I love broadcast news. I love romantic comics. Yeah. One of my favorite films ever made. Okay, fair enough. That's good.

Broadcast news apparently the signal inspiration for Materialist, which is a movie about a matchmaker who falls in love with two men it appears. Do you think it will be like the matchmaker's role in society in a world of Raya and hinge Will be addressed in this film. I would assume so but there are there they're like thriving just As a guy whose match has been made I was just asking a question Did you ever consider something like that? No, I never needed it. I just had a magnetism, you know Yeah, absolutely many people saying, many men are saying...

Uh... Uh... F1. Yeah. We got an extended look at the new Brad Pitt F1 racing movie. Uh, the first film from your boy from Top Gun Maverick, Joseph Kaczynski, since Spider-Head. Yeah, which I did watch,

because you guys made a whole big deal out of it. Spider-Head I enjoyed. Yeah. F1, here's what I had clocked in F1. Obviously a lot of cars going very fast. Obviously a lot of, is he over the hill? I'm too old for this shit from Brad Pitt. And then a lot of pushing people in hallways.

Yeah. I think there were three scenes where someone was pushed in a hallway. Could all be happening in the same scene. We don't know. Well, at one point it was Brad Pitt and Carrie Condon slamming each other against a wall. That's the Top Gun Kiss. While making out. Yeah.

Yeah. My intent is up about this one. Okay. A little concerned by the rote framework of this story. Might not matter, ultimately, if the action is great. Kaczynski visually does not miss, but just holding my breath. I'm in the show me the movie zone with this one. Don't need to see another trailer.

Agree. I did not watch this one because I was like, I don't want it to be... You know, if I'm going to see them slam into a hallway multiple times, let it be during the film or during the 45,000 times I rewatch it with my son. Seems healthy. Will you watch the sex scenes together? Um, no, we won't. You gotta think about that. This is coming up.

Yeah, I know. It is true that as soon as we get to, we don't usually make it to the, to the, quote unquote. That's the best part of Top Gun Maverick, is you can watch it with any age, because there's no intercourse. Right, but as soon as Tom Cruise goes in our house, he's like, I'm just turning this off. That's what he wants. Max is like, I'm not interested in this. We'll have to teach him about Jennifer Connelly one day, won't we?

No, he likes that. The boat scene is very important. You know, you're in the Navy now. Okay. Did you watch the trailer for Together? This is the new Alison Brie, Dave Franco movie, which was a sensation at Sundance. Oh, no, I actually didn't because it's twisty high concept, right? And so I was just like, this seems like I'm in and I'll just watch it.

It doesn't really give away anything that isn't in the log line, but it's a really, really- I haven't even read the log line. Okay. I won't spoil anything about it for you other than just to say it's a very well-made trailer for a movie that has a lot of heat on it. Yeah. Alison Brie, Dave Franco, married in real life, of course.

And gosh, how to not spoil it for you guys. It's kind of at the start of you taking some time off from the show, I think. So this might be a CR and Sean affair. Just putting that out there for you. Anyway, it's also on my birthday. Oh, happy birthday. Thanks.

It's your birthday movie. Yeah. Well, you should read about what it's about. It could be an interesting movie for you and Zach to spend some time with. I was hoping that we would have a Phoenician scheme trailer by the time we recorded this episode, because Chris and I are headed to Boston, but alas, no. Reportedly, Wes Anderson's new movie, which is out in two months.

Maybe we can go live on Instagram. From the streets of Boston. Have you considered doing that about content? I haven't found a piece of content that would rise to the level of, it's time to go live Can I give you a pro tip? Make sure that you have your passwords and log logins nailed down before you want to go live Because that got in the way of me being able to go live today like it makes you re verify your

yeah, but I was also good I was gonna do it from the big pic count and What were you gonna do it about? The red carpet. I don't know. I was just, you know, I was vibing. We had like 30 minutes between when we did this and when the show, the Oscar started. But then I couldn't log in. There was a Odyssey night shoot outside of a fort that I was going to maybe jump on about.

Yeah, like a fortification. There was like a battle outside of a fort in Greece. Did you just use the full term for fort? Fortification? Fort. Like Fort Sumter? No, like whatever. What would you call? Like an ancient fort. Yeah. What would you call that?

Like the remains of one? A palace, I guess. Like a city palace. I don't know why. Walls of the city. Again, I don't know why I'm being asked questions about the Odyssey R. When it's all there for you. You are the expert. I'm just saying I considered going live because I thought it would be cool if I was like in the lower part of the screen with the microphone being like as you can see Christopher Nolan shooting the night up here. Yeah.

And you know, typically we don't refer to Greek cities as forts, but in a lot of ways it's a fortification. Okay. Why don't we? Why don't I do that? No, why don't we refer to them as forts? I don't know. I mean, I, cause, cause he blinked when I said it. It wasn't, cause it was like, Oh, you mean fort Ticonderoga. And it's like, no, I mean fucking, you know, Hester's out there.

He's trying to get in, you know? I'm wait, I'm, I'm still waiting for the Odyssey art to launch. Okay. Well, I feel like it shouldn't even be on Ringer movies. It should be your own channel. You're trying to divest me from the Ringer. No, I think you have a greater chance of success individually. The Phoenician scheme.

Wes Anderson's spy film. Yes. I mean, that's another one where it's like, that would be great if they released a trailer, but I don't need a trailer. Just show me the movie. I agree. I think I've said this a couple of times in auctions and stuff

But Michael Cera is the most logical person to be in a Wes Anderson movie Who's never been in a Wes Anderson movie? It's a great point and I agree with you completely and I look forward to it I think there's a it's a star-studded cast as well as Benicio's back a number of other Scar Joe back for this one as well I believe so. So yeah, very much looking forward to that. I don't think I've seen even a still from the movie yet, too, which is interesting. And it's coming out very, very, very soon. Two months. Last piece of news, Chris added this.

We also texted vigorously about it over the weekend. What is this news? I have the headline here, Leatherface, but he fucks. Because JT Molnar, director director of Strange Darling and Glenn Powell are apparently in pole position, no F1, to launch a Texas Chainsaw Massacre reboot remake reimagining. Now Glenn Powell would apparently be appearing in the film and producing, so he will be hands on. And the question here is, is this Leather Face's origin story? Is he a hot young Texan?

And then he gets corrupted by leather and faces? Or is he gonna switch it up and Glen Powell's the final girl? JT Muldner, obviously, like, if you see segments from Strange Darling, they're not, I would say they lovingly pay homage to the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre in a great way. So he is a perfect director for this. If we are going to just recycle this stuff, I can't wait for this movie. I'm very excited. I'm a little bit dubious about Texas Chainsaw as IP. Yeah, they've tried it. They tried to be like the larger leather face family. I'm a little bit dubious about Texas Chainsaw as IP. Yeah. They've tried it.

They tried to be like the larger leather face family. We've tried to go back as a group of influencers to start the town again, right? Yeah. I did a huge episode about it with Alex Ross Perry during COVID, where there was recently a Netflix movie about three years ago that was like that influencer version that you're describing.

Not good at all. And most of the sequels, not good at all. And most of the sequels are not good. I think the two Tobe Hooper movies are really good. Some people have some love for Leatherface, which is I think 1990. I don't know if the story ports over. The first film is so singular.

Is there a Platinum Dune's version of it? There was, yeah. It's not very good. I think Alexandra D'Addario is the star, I want to say. You seen any of these? Sometimes it's like, what are you guys talking about? But then it's like you can't remember meaningful conversations that we had in European locations. Sounds like I'm redefining meaningful.

What is meaningful? Is it Alexandra Daddario's work in the Texas Chainsaw? I'm happy. I like Strange Darling, despite myself, and which is a tribute to JT Molnar. And I root for Glenn Powell. I don't mean to waste your time by belaboring this point. But can I ask you as a star watcher,

Glenn Powell currently, honestly, among other things, best known for being in Top Gun Maverick. Right. As well as the Sidney Sweeney movie and all the other stuff. Hitman and Twister. Top Gun Maverick, Twisters, the upcoming Running Man reboot. Hitman. And now Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Those four, like all reviving other properties rather than forging his own way.

Right. Any concern on your part, or is that just the way things go in 2025? At least it's not superhero. There you go. You know? It's kind of like too past if you want to operate at his level or at the level that he wants to be. Yeah.

And... You can either remake stuff or you can put on a kid. I think he's doing the playbook. The other movie that you didn't mention is John Patton Ford's Huntington, which is an A24 drama. No, no, I'm not saying he's not making other good movies. I'm just saying he has got multiple reboot properties going.

The Running Man, which I think we're going to learn a lot about at CinemaCon next week, I have very high hopes for it. Not just because it's an Edgar Wright movie, but it's the perfect kind of movie to be remade, because the original is just not that great, and the story, the King story is such a good story and a good idea for a movie. I've got some doubts about Texas Chainsaw. I really like J.T. Molnar as a director, but again, it's not my favorite. Twisters, I enjoyed. A lot of fun. I think he needed a movie like that.

That was you. That was your problem. We were good on Twisters. I enjoyed Twisters. I just think he needed something really mainstream where he was the guy... He was the action hero lead. You did like it? I thought it was fine. No, yeah, he didn't like it. My heart blew away with Kirin Shipka in the beginning of that film.

Yeah, spoiler, but that was dramatic. If you haven't seen Twisters. Sorry. How do I make a hard shift into The Alto Nights? We'll talk about rebooting stuff. Ayo! Thank you for your service. Yeah. The Alto Nights, as I said, is this new film from Barry Levinson,

who's one of the most accomplished directors in Hollywood. And it's been some time since he's made a great movie. This movie did not break that streak. It's written by Nicholas Pileggi, who, of course, is a famed New York journalist and screenwriter, whose book Wise Guy was the basis of Goodfellas. He's written many screenplays over the years, was married to Nora Efron. He reportedly is close friends with David Zaslav,

who runs Warner Brothers, which is one of the reasons why this movie exists. I did not know that. Are you being serious? No. OK. The movie stars Robert De Niro in a dual role. First time? Him doing that?

I believe so. Though don't quote me on that. A lot. He plays a pair of 1950s mob bosses, Vito Genovese and Frank Costello. This movie also features Deborah Messing, Amanda's favorite actress, Cosmo Jarvis. My favorite actor. Cosmo. Well, I want to talk to you about Cosmo. Catherine Narducci, you may recall, is Artie Bucco's wife from The Sopranos.

And Michael Rispoli, who you may recall, did not get the role of Tony Soprano in The Sopranos. Plays Albert Anastasia in this movie. Yes. This movie is about the power struggle between Vito and Frank, who were friends turned frenemies. Um, top bosses of the mafia. There becomes a huge conflict between them when Vito orders a hit on Frank. And then this movie attempts to chart this kind of uneasy survival of the New

York mafia from the 1950s to the 1970s and these two powerhouse figures. Amanda, I'll start with you. What did you think of this movie? I was so bored. Amanda, I'll start with you. What did you think of this movie? I was so bored. I was unbelievably bored by this film and not to be rude or ageist, but spent a lot of time being like, who are these old people on the screen and why won't they stop talking?

I guess it should be something of interest to us and that the DNA that you just listed would appeal to us, but they did not pull it off in any way, shape, or form. Chris, what'd you think? As bored as I could possibly be with a subject matter that I'm incredibly interested in. So never like detached from Earth's atmosphere and floated away while I was watching this, but obviously

a movie that decided to be all things rather than one thing to its own, probably. What do you mean by that? Well, I think every time it kind of started to touch on a subject that would have been interesting, whether it was Vito and Frank's lifelong relationship and their origins or the movement of the mafia towards bringing heroin into the country and being like distributors of heroin in the late 50s to any number of other subplots that happen. If you could have grabbed onto any one of those things, I think it would have been excellent.

But instead, it tried to tell 50 different stories and also tell it in such a way that I think almost bordered on Netflix true crime doc rather than like a narrative film. So he has a lot of direct to camera exposition dumps, a lot of use of like broadcast TV for expo, a lot of use of voiceover, which we'll get to as we talk about Garbage Scorsese. So just a lot of like tricks that I think were about, let's do a Wikipedia history dump rather than tell a story. Well, swing music plays, yeah. I agree. This is not very good at all.

It feels like it has the bones of a movie that would have mattered quite a bit 30 years ago, but we're so far past the desire. Wait, it was originally written, wasn't it? I think so, yeah. Um, and it is a movie that is absolutely has a huge relationship to Goodfellas and Casino and those Scorsese films and a number of other New York crime stories, um, about the sort of rise and sustainability and ultimate downfall of the mafia in the United States.

Levinson is an odd choice for a movie like this. I don't know that he necessarily has a style. He rose to fame in the, you know, first as a writer and then as a filmmaker in the 80s with movies like Diner, Personal Favorite of Yours, The Natural, Tin Men, Good Morning Vietnam, very talkie dramedies was kind of his stock and trade. Reaches the absolute pinnacle of Hollywood with Rain Man. Another talkie dramedy, very character focused. And then kind of goes on this like pretty extended

mid to downfall period of like a lot of really mediocre movies with big stars over a long period of time. There's not a lot of history of like crime movies here on this list. Well, OK, so we could say that this is as the image behind us suggests from the hitmakers of Goodfellas, The Irishman and Bugsy. So Bugsy would be the most obvious like brother film for this in Levenson's filmography. He's done some crime stuff with homicide, I guess. And then the time period is his singular obsession

or one of his great obsessions, obviously. Right, 1950s America and sort of the lie underneath the sheen of the 1950s is something that he is very focused on, but he's usually focused on ordinary people, very regular people. He seems to be a middle class guy from Baltimore. It seems to be what he most kind of drives his interest in this time period.

I mean, Bugsy to me is a big failure of a movie. It's a movie that kind of has all of the component parts. You've got Beatty and Keitel and you've got this Tobac script and it's Oscar nominated and all this stuff. And then you watch it. It's just kind of like a slog. And it reminds me a lot of this movie, which has like no juice. No energy. There's no like the pacing of the script is very strange Doesn't really feel like I don't I couldn't tell if all of that hyper focusing on archival photos and De Niro delivering

25 years after the conclusion of the story into camera as he does Sort of Kodachrome K codex slideshow of his life, basically. Yeah. Which I think also if you don't know the story of Genovese and Costello, then it kind of is like, so Costello lives, you know, like it kind of just gives away the game immediately. You're like, so why are they, why did they frame the movie like this? Yeah. Because if you watch Goodfellas for the first time, you may know that it's based on the

life of Henry Hill, but you probably didn't know how it concluded unless you were reading the New York Post every day back then. So, I think that's a very odd choice structurally. And let's talk about De Niro. Um, I think this is actually not bad, what he does in the movie. I think he's too old for this part.

The, you put this in the notes and I completely agree with it. It clearly seems like the veto part was written for Joe Pesci or Joe Pesci-esque figure. And he's doing a kind of Joe Pesci. I don't think badly. No, but that, I think the depiction of Vito is, while exciting, you know, because he's just got this hair trigger temper and like anything anyone says, he can be like, nah, I don't think so. Fuck you. Like, you know, like he has a kind of like energy to him. It's it's a little under baked in terms of like,

I know that Barry Levinson has talked about how this was originally thought of as a Frank Costello piece. It was supposed to be a movie about Frank Costello. And then over the course of development, De Niro was like, I want to play both parts. It's going to be like these two sides of like... Of a mom's... Yeah. And I think that was probably to the film's detriment. Although weirdly, De Niro does look like both of these guys.

The makeup job is really good. And I will say to the film's credit, like Dante Spannati shot it, who's a wonderful cinematographer. It does have like a warmth to it that at times is enjoyable. The production design is pretty top notch. Like it looks cool in places and the makeup is obviously like very, very well done where he looks pretty much like the photos of these two guys. If that matters to you.

I know that when you're going into something like this, you're like, how photorealistic is it? I mean, it was a nice camel coat in the, in that park scene where he's doing his interview. Nice Central Park West apartment. Was that you conducting the interview? Um, yeah, that was me because I didn't know anything about what was happening except, I guess, that Frank Costello lives.

Yes. If this stunt casting is meant to show, like, two sides of one person or what like they have a lot in common, but also that, you know, you can make decisions and turn out this way or you can make our decisions and meet this fate. I would agree with Chris that the script and maybe even the performance doesn't really, you know, pay out on that experiment. And it mostly just is Robert De Niro doing a Joe Pesci impression. The movie needs some of that life. It needs...

Well, because the Costello side of it is essentially a guy watching TV. I don't really understand making Costello the center of this story. Because Costello is Ace Rothstein from Casino without Vegas. I mean, he is like a kind of diplomat leader, you know? He's somebody who is willing to put himself before Congress, who's sort of like the gentleman chap of the mafia. Yeah, and he's installed in the, I believe in the history of the mafia. I think the movie kind of makes it sound like he took it from Vito, but in fact, like he

was installed when Lucky Luciano fled to Italy. Yes, and Vito had gone to prison. So Vito did a stint in prison, which is the sort of like engine of the movie, is that Vito disappears for a while and when he returns he wants his quarterback, so to speak, and he doesn't get it. The movie, I think, is like a fun little portal into a period of history that I don't know how much of this you've read about or care about. We've read about it a lot growing up in New York, especially the sort of latter stages of this story, particularly leading to Vinny Chin, the Cosmo Jarvis character who went on to become an iconic staple of New York tabloids because he was, as they very briefly mentioned at the end of this movie, pretending to be crazy for like 15 years on the streets of New York wearing a bathrobe and muttering to himself to avoid being arrested for being the head of the New York mafia.

Like how many hours a day do you have to commit to that performance? Well you don't have like 24-7. He was in the post every day. He was on the cover like eight times a year. Okay like it's 11, like I got to put the bathrobe on. And then you go back in. Can I ask you something? Me?

Yeah, sure. Because I don't know as much about this, the history of the mafia. Or, you know, I haven't done my independent research. Yeah. What is it that leads both of you to spend hours at a time doing independent? Like what is it?

It's really interesting. I mean, crime in general is really interesting, especially crime that has kind of like ornate construction and the mafia has all these codes and these conceits and these this way that they live by. And I got into it because of movies. I got into it. And then the sopranos like the movies show you these things. Also, I've told this story before. I think I told it on the Goodfellas podcast, but I grew up across the street from a really, really kind guy named Dominic Natale. He was our across the street neighbor and his wife, Angela, and, um, their daughter married Nick Pelleggi's uncle.

So, or excuse me, Nick married Nick Pelleggi's nephew. So I met Nick Pelleggi when I was a kid. I was surrounded by Italian American culture. I was Dom and Angela babysat me until I was 10 years old. And so like the kind of like Mambo Italiano, you know, good fellas Scorsese culture was just kind of a part of my life when I was a young kid. And my dad, of course, was a cop. So my dad would go over to Dom's house and they would start talking about this stuff. And Dom was like

a real Italian guy and my dad was a real Irish cop and I could feel like the friction between those two experiences and so it naturally like makes you curious about things. The problem with like this is the ultimate like could have been an email movie though you know like we don't really like there's no there's no dramatic dynamic. Just to answer your question like I also like grew up when the Mafia was still somewhat present in South Philadelphia. And it had, you know, if you watch Irishmen, you'll see a lot of Philadelphia stuff. I guess it's just like an Atlanta thing.

There was always rumors of the mayor of... Why are you not more interested in, you know, GZ and Big Meach and the trap? You know? One of the problems with this film though though is that it is essentially covering the ground that some of the greatest American films ever made has already covered. So the Kfava hearings are dramatized in Godfather 2. You know, like the Appalachian meeting is referenced in Goodfellas. It's nice to see it on screen here.

But this essentially functions as a prequel to the Irishman. Something that happens in between moments of Henry Hill's youth and adulthood in Goodfellas. That's right. It's kind of the parts they skip in Goodfellas. And is essentially Godfather 2. You know, Vito, Don Bartini in Godfather is based on Vito. Frank Costello is one of the inspirations for Vito Corleone. Like, we got it. Like, you can't, and it's not like,

oh, man, maybe Godfather 2 and Goodfellas and Irishmen left some meat on the bone here. And one of the things that I found a little bit melancholy about watching this movie is I remember all of the Irishmen stuff being like, we wanted to tell this story one more time with the wisdom of age. And I got Joe Pesci, De Niro gets Joe Pesci to do Irishmen.

Joe Pesci's like, we've done this, we've done this, I don't want to do the mafia thing again. He's like, yeah, but like, this is about these guys looking back on the end of their lives and thinking about the violence and the destruction. Was it all worth it? What was it for? And it's kind of like the, it's like, oh, and then you just did it again, you know, because you could or because you had bills to pay

or whatever, and it's a little bit tough. The Irishman is the signature old man mafia movie. Most of these movies that are great tend to end with people in middle age either getting shot or sent to witness protection. And also, crucially, directed by... Martin Scorsese. Or Francis Ford Coppola, yeah.

So it's a tough balance there. Barry Levinson, as far as I know, is also not Italian American. Not that that really necessarily matters. You didn't have to be Italian American to make this movie great, but it's just kind of a... It's just a footnote movie and a story of a studio to me. That's really what it amounts to,

is we're in this period with Warner Brothers, where they're taking some big chances on high-level auteurs like Paul Thomas Anderson, like Bong Joon-Ho, like Maggie Gyllenhaal. And they're also, you know, this has been described in reports as kind of a favor to the studio chief for his friends. I don't know, you know... I don't want to be ageist, but I'm going to just talk about this very quickly. So Barry Levinson is 82. De Niro is also in his 80s. Dante Spanotti

is in his 80s. Nicholas Pledgy, I think is 94. These are wildly accomplished legends of movies. They are huge, huge figures. Dante Spanaghi shot in Man Hunter. You know what I mean? Nick Pledger wrote Fucking Goodfellas. Like they're in the hall of fame forever. I don't, this is not what I'd be doing in my 80s if I did that.

I just wouldn't be doing this. I don't know what I'd be doing. Not working that hard. This question like looms over this podcast of what you will be doing. You know? And you always say this, you know? That at some point, you believe you will reach a place. Wine country zone.

Yeah, like an emotional, mental state where you're like, I'm out and I'm going to wine country. And I think, I wonder if that's true. So, okay, let me pose this to you both. We don't have to make this a psychological examination, because I want to know genuinely what you two think. I think you do things like, to a much lesser extent, podcasting, but make art, make this work for Hollywood.

Because you like money? Mm-hmm. And you particularly like sort of acclaim and attention, and the energy that comes with a new project. Right? Is that fair to say? Is there anything else that you get out of it? Exactly why I think they did this. And is that what it is?

Because that's not something I'm addicted to. Like, particularly when I'm like, when I'm 60, I'm good. I'll be completely candid that there are elements of this movie that make me feel like a professional group of people maybe took it over to just finish it and get, here's what we shot and here's what I did. And now we're just gonna stitch it together. A lot of the like, here's archival footage of a big band performance.

And you're just like, why is this happening? Like, they're not watching a big band. There's no characters taking part in this. It's just an interstitial moment that like feels like it was stapled into the movie. Because they're like, well, here's, we have this part and this part and this part. And I, with all due respect to the incredible achievements of these guys, I don't really feel like this has a lot of authorship obviously attached to it.

So I do think it's what you said, which is like these, I think it's very addictive and very difficult to be like, what I want is to fade into obscurity and not- You fast forwarded past money. I didn't, I said that thing that's... I know, but it's like money and... But I, you know. I think the third option is obviously like, a creative act is energizing in and of itself.

Yeah, there's people out there who know we're working. They're working to stay alive. Like, I get it. I'm not trying to judge. I think when it's iterative, it feels a little strange. Where it's like, for Robert De Niro, the signature mafia actor of his time, to go back to the well at this stage, even though it does put him on the poster in a big movie

that gets a wide release from a major studio, just kind of feels like a waste of time. And we know him to be a very adventurous actor, although I know he likes money too. So I guess I'm just kind of turning it over in my head because as I'm watching the movie, I was like, it is reflected in the story. Like when we see Frank Costello at the end,

when we have these characters who are thinking back on like, why did I do this? What was it worth? It's much more penetrating in The Irishman, those big questions, but it's a part of the Alto Knights too. Yeah. Can I, so I asked my dad, the number one Barry Levinson fan on this earth, to go see this film, which he did.

And he was disappointed. He sent me an email with his thoughts, but this is the last sentence of his email. He said, for an older viewer... My dad is younger than any of the people we've discussed. Is your dad retired? And he is retired. But this is his perspective for an older viewer. This is the way the world ends experience. This actor starred in Mean Streets,

and this director put homicide together, question mark, and now we're doing this. So that's pretty depressing. Yeah, it is depressing. But at the same time, I don't know. I really want to, I'm personally really resistant to doing a sky's falling thing, but it is hard to not acknowledge that like,

this is what we're cashing in political capital to make and this is the thing you're forcing someone to like green light. And I mean, it was put out like with hardly any fanfare it was it died on the vine. Why don't you share your viewing experience? God awful 11 a.m. a man I think facetimed the entire film to his friend and it was me and just one other guy and we were in like deep seats so it's like I don't like bothering me but every once in a while I would hear on the phone someone be like, -"Damn!"

-♪ Bzzz! -♪ Bzzz! I saw it at 3.30 p.m. at an AMC, and it was me and four other singles. Yeah. Four men and myself in the Prime Theater at the Americana, right next to the IMAX Theater. To watch listeners. Yeah. Um...

A lot of single men interested in crime and storytelling. at the Americana, right next to the IMAX theater. So watch listeners. Yeah. Um... A lot of single men interested in crime and storytelling. Uh... It was quiet. There was no FaceTiming in the room, but it was... There was no energy. Six or seven people in mine, which was noon on a Friday. And there might have been another woman.

Uh... I do think that she... So two women have seen this movie. Really understandably checked her phone at some point, but, you know, who among us? And I wouldn't say that, like, the audience was really involved in what was going on on screen. You know, there wasn't, like, a lot of energy surging towards the screen, if you will. Sure. Yeah.

This is a depressing movie. I don't want to draw too many conclusions about what you're describing, because on the flip side, Warner Bros. Yeah, this is a depressing movie. I don't want to draw too many conclusions about what you're describing, because on the flip side, Warner Bros. is making the PTA movie, did make Mickey 17, it is doing all this other stuff that is going to be considered very risky, and then it's going to come out and not be financially successful, and people are going to stroke their chins and be like,

I told you so, and then we're never going to get any good movies. So, if this is the price to pay for five or four... Is this the price to pay? Have we just arrived at this? This is the economic. In Hollywood, it used to be this. It used to be I'll give one for my buddy so that the other person can have a shot. Now it's you have to make five IP driven projects and maybe we'll make one cool movie. So to me, this actually does feel like an old fashioned version. I mean, even adjusted for inflation, the way that budgets seem to be expanding right now,

which is why I think there's so much pocket watching of Warner Brothers is that if it's like just if one battle after another is a $70 million movie or a $60 million movie, everybody's just like, what a great, what a great thing. Right. Like, are we just not adjusting for triple digit budgets being what we need to like attach to any film now? I try to not spend too much time talking about budgets on the show because they're all, none of them are honest. Yeah. And then the marketing and the, yeah, like how much money is allocated to each film. Exactly. And so sometimes you'll see a movie and it'll say it was a $30 million movie, but like, Anora's awards campaign's been more on the movie.

So, and like whatever PTA gets to spend, I don't care. It's like he's been making movies on smaller budgets his entire career, so it doesn't mean a lot to me. The idea of like somebody like Bong or Ryan Coogler getting big budgets, I think is just straight up good. Just like you're talking about filmmakers in the prime of their career who've earned the right by dint of their success, to get to do more.

And whether they work or not is up for debate, obviously. This one just feels like... closing business at the end of a run. Yeah. Like this is maybe the last movie that Levinson will make. It's probably not the last thing De Niro will do. He's on a fucking streaming show on Netflix this year too. But...

Oh yeah, how'd that pan out? Did you finish it? Not great. You want me to spoil it? Yeah. Spoilers for zero day. He is an ex-president who is now investigating the cyber attack on the country, and it turns out that the cyber attack was partially orchestrated by his daughter, a very AOC-coded congresswoman

played by Lizzie Kaplan. And it was to shake America out of its stupor. Oh, OK. Wow. So what is what's Bobby going to do with that info? I can't remember the exact code of the film. But I think Angela Bassett remains in office. OK.

I mean, this is just, you know. President Angela Bassett. President Angela Bassett and Lizzie Kaplan is the daughter of a former president? Yeah, Lizzie Kaplan and Matthew Modine orchestrate a cyber attack. Wow. Okay. This does not make me excited about aging. That's just kind of...

Is there anything that does make you excited about aging? I don't know. When you talk about the life of, you know, when I'm done and I can just like hit Napa or whatever... Late 50s in wine country is where I'm headed. Yeah, that sounds great, but if like just, like, hit Napa or whatever. Late 50s in wine country is where I'm headed. Yeah, that sounds great. But if, like, as, you know... Never stop making content. If this is how the world ends, as my dad put it, I don't know.

I will be following Robert De Niro's lead, where if necessary, I will podcast with another man played by me in full makeup. And I will... And I will just argue about Severin season four, which will probably have come out by the time I'm 80. Twenty-eight years from now. I was wondering if you were gonna make me really belly laugh.

I just did. Um, CR... Who would be the best person to wear CR old man makeup? No, that's me. No, but like what other actor is... I'm gonna have Jack shoot. We're gonna shoot this side of me, and then I'm gonna shoot that side of me. Um, I don't need any. You don't think AI can do that? And then you're in the corner just being like, so what's happening here? Chris Reynolds shooting a knight here? Honest question. Yeah. I could not ask Chris a more honest question. This is direct. If you could replace Andy Greenwald on the watch with AI Chris Ryan so that you could talk to yourself

I would never do it. It's why I love potting with you guys love potting with Andy It's it's it's the chemistry with you guys. It's not replicable, you know, I'll probably quit when you guys are done Yeah, you'll quit when we're done. Yeah, I'm not gonna just start up again with like a bunch of other people, right? You mean you got to bring in a bunch of 26 year olds to fluff you, play K-Ear Ego. Garbage Scorsese. This is interesting. You know, Martin Scorsese is really in the news right now in a couple of ways. One, he makes, I'm sure people have seen it,

if they've seen the trailer, a very funny cameo. Very funny cameo in the studio. The new Apple TV Plus series from Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg that comes out on Wednesday. I would say his single greatest acting performance. He's so funny in the show. You haven't had a chance to see this yet, right? No, I'm very excited. Perhaps Taxi Driver, but he's, you know.

He's good in a lot of movies, honestly, but he's very good in this one. This is a TV show. And then also, you know, very quietly, the movie magazine Dreams was released over the weekend. I don't, you guys haven't had a chance to see it, right? I haven't. So I saw it at Sundance two years ago, maybe released over the weekend. I don't, you guys haven't had a chance to see it. I haven't. No. So I saw it at Sundance two years ago, maybe even more than that.

I can't recall. This is a new movie from, uh, starring Jonathan Majors, but directed by Elijah Bynum, who will come up again in this conversation. And after Jonathan Majors, uh, got into some trouble and was eventually convicted of, uh, domestic violence charges, the movie very much went away. But when it came out at Sundance, I saw it, I think I gave it a pretty negative review on the podcast, but he is, his performance is amazing in the movie. But the movie is just straight up what if taxi driver, but a bodybuilder. It's about like a sort of deeply unbalanced violent individual

who's motivated by this one goal who can't see the world around him and goes to crazy ends. The movie is hard to watch, no fun, you know, ripping off stuff that we've seen before, but like, it is a prime example, I think, of not just the mafia being a part of what does it mean to be garbage-score Sazzy. You know, that certainly Goodfellas is probably the movie that looms largest over a generation of film directors who saw it and sought to bring that energy. Right. And if you just take a movie with like a bunch of young, cool guys and you put a couple of needle drops from the fifties and the seventies and say, go, then you're doing Garbage Scorcese. But then there's other versions of it, you know, that Raging Bull, Taxi Driver

and King of Comedy for sure. And, you know, The Dep there's other versions of it. You know, that Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, and... King of Comedy. King of Comedy for sure. And you know, The Departed and all the way through are huge influences and not just the crime stuff specifically, but the tonality, I think, of his movies. Right. The like, sick sense of humor, the slickness through which he tells it, and then the... The self-loathing.

Yes, a lot of inner hatred, a lot of like rejection of where you come from, but an inescapability of that identity. There are some Scorsese movies that I think don't really apply, you know, I don't see a lot of Age of Innocence, Silence. Their loss. Agreed, more people should be watching Silence to this day. Do you think Little Women is the garbage Scorsese of Age of Innocence?

Eh... I don't... I don't know, there's not a lot of... garbage Scorsese of Age of Innocence? I don't, I don't know. There's not a lot of self-loathing in that. Also, you know, that movie does feature more women than your average Scorsese movie, which is not a shot at Scorsese. And he has written some, you know, he has directed some great women parts and performances, but like that's still about a man, you know, not... I think he's directed more women to Oscars than men. Yeah, I mean, it's just the womanness and again, there's not as much

self-hatred in Little Women. What else do you think of when you think of this kind of a movie? And again, there's not as much self-hatred in Little Women. What else do you think of when you think of this kind of a movie? Well, I think for garbage genre pods that we do, it's useful probably to relate the film that you're talking about, the garbage movie that you're talking about, to one of the original texts. So that was sort of my operating philosophy and my selections. I did want to ask you guys whether or not you had any trouble picking movies

because you couldn't tell where garbage Scorsese ended and garbage Tarantino began. I'm glad you asked. Interesting. I made a long list and there is bunched in the long list from 92 through 99, there's a lot of, is this Pulp Fiction or is this Goodfellas? Yeah.

And there is a smashing together. You know, like they're kind of like faux Tarantinos, the like things to do in Denver when you're deads also have a ton of Scorsese in them. Yeah. I think the scripts are usually very Tarantino and the filmmaking style is usually very Scorsese. So I think there is maybe more crossover. Right. Than I would have realized. Maybe like there's more like pop culture references and there's more like guys sitting around

a table like kind of discussing their version of the Like A Virgin lyrics or whatever. Exactly. But I think that, I mean it goes back to the 80s. That's how I know that it's not just the Tarantino thing. I would say that a lot of, I would say I leaned more contemporary films. So I have my selections, but I'm happy to jump in wherever. A lot of the 80s stuff that I wrote down are mostly good movies that bear a very strong Scorsese influence. So, I mean, Scarface is, you know, obviously a huge... owes a debt to Scorsese and Coppola in many ways,

even though it's made by one of their friends and it's a Cuban Miami tale and not an Italian tale. Um, but just like the energy, the violence, the quick cutting, the use of pop music and the score. Um, and then like the Pope of Greenwich village, Pritzky's honor. Um, Michael Sumino's year of the dragon. Mona Lisa, um, Wall Street, the Oliver Stone movie is very sports-a-sy, you know, very different from Platoon.

Um, you know, Married to the Mob, Black Rain. These are all movies that are like slick crime focused movies that have some laughs, have some extravagant violence. But a lot of those movies are really good. So like they're not garbage, you know, they're just influenced by Martin Scorsese stuff. It's also interesting that Scorsese's style has evolved over the years.

I mean, he still obviously has a style that he uses, I think more for films like Silence, that's a little bit more contemplative. But even The Wolf of Wall Street, Killers of the Flower Moon, Irishman, even Departed, I would even say, he started messing around with this, where it's taking elements of, like,

what we associate with, like, Scorsese's style, and tweaking it to the point where it's almost avant-garde, starting scenes, restarting scenes Yes, like DJ effect. He's experimenting with himself. Yeah, like the music using pop needle drops as an almost disorienting kind of like we're gonna run it backwards and then start it later in the song and then start it from the beginning and He's kind of always Messing around with what we expect even though he delivers very reliable thrills.

But I found that that whole thing, that the fact that he has evolved so much in the last 15 years, changed how I looked at, like... Yeah. And that is what makes him one of the greats and has been so rewarding about the last 15 years, is that he is very much engaging with... the types of movies that he makes and the idea of

what a Scorsese is. And I do feel like when we are, when we make our garbage Scorsese list, it will be referencing the same movies that he has basically been referencing in the last 15 years of work, which is, you know, kind of ends with Goodfellas, I guess Casino, but like, you know, here's the question, like, is Casino eligible? You know, is the departed eligible? Yeah, yeah. Because in a way they are like,

there's like Scorsese plays himself, but they are... And I think, and it's like unfair, because both of those movies are good, and I think that there is something interesting about Scorsese, like, working with his own genre conventions or whatever, but like, it's kind of what we mean. No, Casino is the more interesting example to me. The Departed is like, that's a script that is an adaptation of an Asian film that has

gone through like many different iterations and he kind of brought his very, that style that Chris is talking about where he's just like chopping up his own shit. It feels like a little, it's Boston, you know, it's like a little bit different. Casino is like, these are kind of the same characters in a lot of ways. It's the same arc. It's the same, you know, the other thing that a lot of garbage-scorching movies have is narration, bad narration historically. So, I think that's kind of an inspired call. I think there are some movies that predate Casino,

but even when Casino was released, I remember this as a teenager, they were like, -"This again? He's going back to this well?" Which I think is a little silly, you'd be like, John Carpenter made another scary thriller? Like, this is sometimes what you do. You basically needed five years to kind of separate the two pieces and be able to appreciate Casino on its own merits rather than as an extension of...

And in the same way now, you can kind of look back at... But for the record, no one will ever be able to appreciate your thoughts about Casino because they were not properly recorded. Well, you know, that was really tough. I was working with Brian Wilson that day, and he just decided not to mic me up. It was really tough. I was working with Brian Wilson that day and he just decided not to mic me up. But you can look back at Goodfellas, Casino, and Irishman as his Godfather trilogy, you know?

And it has its own prequel with Mean Streets, you know? It's great. Marty. Where do you start this? Because I like what Amanda said, Casino is an amusing wrinkle to the list. I'll start with my most, should I just throw one out there? Yeah. I can start with my most recent selection. Bike riders. Also on mine. Undeniably. Yeah. A chock full of needle drops, somewhat ironically detached narration. Right. Spanning a decades or at least several years of a subculture, featuring some very obvious

main character being pulled in two different directions by his domestic life and his criminal life. Just a lot of the hallmarks of it. I, Jeff Nichols based this film off of a book of photographs, but filled it in with basically what if Goodfellas on bikes. And I mean that as a compliment, I did enjoy bike riders. You think we should work backwards in time so that we get to the early 90s? If you'd like to. Sure. Would you like to nominate one? Well, Bike Riders was on my list. I don't, I mean, then I have to, I have a 2019 nominee. Does that count? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, of course. And this was, this was on your long list,

but I do think Hustlers fits, you know, an underworld in this case of a group of strippers in New York who are working together to, you know, illegally obtain some, you know, money, but also like there's some righteousness on their side. Like, weird framing device that doesn't like totally work, but it's not like quite narration. Is it like the interview with the police department? Yes, it's an... No, no, no. Is it like the interview with the police department? Yes, it's an... No, no, no. It's Jessica Pressler,

the New York magazine journalist who wrote the... Julia Stiles. Yeah. Is like doing the interview. That's right. Yeah. So it's not quite narration, but again, like someone after the fact, the main person who gets swept up in the case. And needle drops of a kind.

Oh, yeah. And like, of a type of place. Sure. And like, you know, and a period piece of sorts. Yeah. Fun movie. That's a good one. There's some obvious ones that I don't want to...

Like, we could do Joker. Because Joker is like such an overt homage. I have one for you that sort of riffs off of Joker a little bit. I have two films from 2017. OK. One is You Were Never Really Here, which is Lynn Ramsay's, I would say, variation on Taxi Driver. In fact, it is what if the overhead slow-mo shot

in Taxi Driver was an entire film? Uh-huh. Psychologically, emotionally, Joaquin Phoenix plays this avenging angel assassin who is essentially going out trying to free people from child trafficking until he finds himself at the center of a political conspiracy. And it's actually like a pretty disturbing film and a very prescient one of where fever dreams were going in American culture. But it doesn't necessarily feature the frenetic Scorsese that we're talking about, but it's certainly the Paul Schrader side of Scorsese, I would say. Yeah, that's an interesting one. I saw that cited in a lot of places as a sort of like Scorsese-esque because of that taxi driver construction.

Really interesting movie. I think Lynn Ramsey, I don't think she's made a movie since this movie. She's got one coming. But she has one coming, Die My Love with Robert Pattinson and Jennifer Lawrence later this year. I will nominate Hot Summer Nights,

which is a 2017 movie as well, directed by Elijah Bynum, who made magazine Dreams. You and I saw this movie at South by Southwest, Chris. And have you ever seen this movie? No. This is one of the earliest films starring Timothy Chalamet. He plays a young man spending his summer at Cape Cod and getting into trouble. It's a little bit of like, it's Cape Cod Goodfellas in a lot of ways.

First half of Goodfellas,age kid starting to deal drugs, starting to get in too deep, falls in love with a girl played by Michael Monroe. Thomas Jane and Emory Cohen as high-level dirtbags. I don't think this movie is good at all but... Did we say that when we walked out? We were like I damn I think I know I don't think so. I don't think it was the... No, but you know what it was? I think it was like...

It wasn't the long shot effect. When we first saw this movie, I think we both walked out. It's like three hours long. It's pretty long. I don't know what the final cut is, because I haven't seen it since we saw it. We walked out of this movie, we were like, it's almost uncomfortable how much, like, of the stuff that we are into is in that movie.

Well, that's definitely true. I think it's very much like Guy who watched boogie nights, but didn't realize Paul Thomas Anderson was ripping off Martin Scorsese. Mm-hmm that's kind of how it feels, you know, like snap zooms and tracking shots and bad narration and all these kind of signatures and like a young guy who's kind of innocent but kind of a Dirtbag, but like you're rooting for him, but he's not doing the right thing. And if only he could just get his shit together. But it's interesting to watch Timmy, if people haven't seen this, at this stage of his career, without like a really strong guiding hand, because his performance is like a little all over the place, but it is exactly what I'm thinking

of when I say garbage, scourge, and disease. Okay, let's do some more. What do you got? Oh, me again? Yeah. Well, okay, I don't want to like, now that we've introduced the chronological element, I'm like, Oh, am I gonna go too far back? Okay, it's fine. You lose. You know, this one is sort of obvious because there are many directors we love who are just like, well, now I'm going to do my gangster like like my movies.

I love Larry Levinson. Yeah. Yeah. So Ridley Scott has tried it several times, but American Gangster seems pretty like dead on in terms of you've got Denzel, you've got Russell Crowe as like, as the cop, you know, they're like circling each other throughout the movie. And also like our anticipation for like, we really did think it was going gonna be Ridley Scott like finally made, you know, his version of Martin Scorsese movie and then it was the garbage version.

Yeah, very affectionate about this movie. I completely agree with you. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not, we like all of the, it's very, I mean, it's a fucked up movie, so it's not cozy, but like... It is comforting that it hits all of the beats. Yeah. The worst part of this movie is the best part of the movie, which is the final ten minutes when Kro and Denzel go toe to toe

after Denzel's been arrested and they're spending time together and interacting, and you're like, why is the movie not these two guys interacting? There's like the heavyweight movie stars of their time. And so they like tease you out with that. Like, it's meant to be like a heat kind of like, wait for it, wait for it. But following Frank Lucas and following this kind of... 07? What was this?

Yeah, 07. Is it 07? I thought it was older. Because I feel like this was this and no country where the Brolin sons... Brolin is fantastic. Yeah, newer than that. Because I feel like this was this Indo-country, where the Brolin sons. Brolin is fantastic. Brolin is incredible. Brolin's death scene is incredible with the blood splattering on the shade. The only thing better is Idris. Yeah, what are you gonna do, Fred?

Yeah. That's become one of the great memes. Okay, Chris, you got another one? Uh, yeah, how about I'll throw a kind of out of... This is the one I was thinking of where I was like, I can't tell where Marty ends and Quentin begins, is Observe and Report. Which is a little bit of the crime Scorsese with the deluded clown Scorsese of King of Comedy,

but Seth Rogen plays a mall cop basically, who has big dreams of being a police officer. It's very uncomfortable, but very wild movie. Jodie Hill, who's obviously in the Danny McBride, David Gordon Green school, made this. This was... Is this the last feature he made? No, he made the... I think the Way of the White-Tailed Deer.

Oh, that's right, with Brolin. Yeah. Which I also saw at South by Southwest. Yeah. Yeah. So... This is one that I was thinking of because it combined a couple of different kinds of Scorsese gestures, and also has a lot of needle drops and fun filmmaking stuff very funny on a Ferris performance in that movie Hmm I think the I Think the one of the there's two I'm gonna take two there's two big dogs

I can talk about them if you've seen both of these movies one is blow which is Ted Demme's 2001 film starring Johnny Depp about a drug trafficker who gets in way over his head. That is the most like, give me shelter, needle drop, rip off attempt. Ted Demme, director I like, late great director, co-creator of UMTV raps, among other things. Um, and then Alpha Dog, which is one that occurred to me late, directed by Nick Cassavetes, John Cassavetes' son, um, that is about like some young kids who get in over their heads with a drug dealer and terrible things happen. I think notable is maybe the first Justin Timberlake movie.

I was going to say that's the one with Justin Timberlake. That's Emile Hirsch in this? It's Emile Hirsch. Um, Ben Foster plays an absolutely crazy guy in this movie. Bruce Willis is in it, Amanda Seyfried, JT, Harry Dean Stanton, like, pretty sick cast. But one of those movies that, like, both of these movies, I know people love Blow,

because they saw it when they were nine or whatever, but it's like, it's not good. I'm sorry to tell you guys. Um, Alpha Dog was announced as like a big event. And I remember sitting in theaters and being like, what? What is happening? Why is this? Why do people love this? Um, but same thing. Like a lot of set up, a lot of like groups of guys

where like the trust starts to dissipate and things go wrong. And the energy seems really high until it all falls apart. Doesn't totally work. Alpha Dog, no. You must have been there as a JT fan. Yeah, of course. I was just more doing the math than how old Bobby was when he would have seen Blow and he was not old enough to... You weren't nine when it came out. So that's tough. What year did it come out? 2001. I was five. Yeah.

Five years old. You see it in theaters at five? Maybe, but it probably blocked it out, I think. Five-year-old me wasn't ready for that. Can we put Casino on? Yeah. Casino is a good call. Thank you. 90s.

I have, well I had two more 2000s. Fire away. Still 21st century ones. One is Guillaume Canet's Blood Ties. Wow. I've seen it. Clive Owen and Billy Crudup, Mila Koulis. Co-written by James Gray.

And it was co-written by James Gray. Does it steal from any specific Scorsese film? Not necessarily, as much as it feels like it is taking place in the neighborhood over from Mean Streets. It's set in 1974 in New York. And it's very James Gray. It's brothers and dads and lovers and, you know, religion and whether or not we can lead just lives or whatever. But vibe wise, the filmmaking and the sort of the scenery of it is just like, we should just make more Mean Streets. Like there should just be more movies that are like adjacent to Mean Streets.

So I had that. It's a fascinating movie. I've never talked to James about this one. It's definitely like, what if a French guy made Mean Streets? Including with French actors at times. Marion Cotillard's in it. Yeah, Marion Cotillard like trying real hard to not be Marion Cotillard. And it's like, hmm, doesn't totally come off.

You know, Matthias Schoenart's also who's been known to play like a Brooklyn tough, who's definitely just from Denmark, you know, doing his best to not be from Scandinavia. What's the one that he's in the Gandalfini with? The drop, right? Yeah, the drop on this long list as well. Yeah, Blood Ties is fun. Blood Ties has an incredible soundtrack. Awesome.

One of the great... What's the song that they used in the trailer? Oh my God, dude. It's so good. Well, Bad Girl by Lee Moses is the one that goes so hard. But there's Sam Cooke, Ace Freely, Tommy James and the Shondells, Janis Ian. This is like Martin Scorsese roulette on this one. It's a good call.

You want to do another one or no? Oh, I was just going to say American hustle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super garbagey emphasis on the garbage. Really garbage.

I just disliked this movie so much that, but yeah, but yes. About people trying to come up in the world through ill-gotten means and ill-gotten ways and... Big cocaine energy. A lot of cocaine energy. It feels kind of like 80s Scorsese right before and right after kind of getting clean. Kind of has a little bit of, I guess it's before Wolf of Wall Street, but that's the same kind of Texas. It's a little New York to New York, where it's like way too slow, but way too fast at

the same time. And a lot of VO lots of yeah voiceover that feels like it's stitching together Fractured parts of a script again. I stand by I love Amy Adams in that movie I think that's one of her best performances everybody else feels like they're like just a little bit Oh a Cooper is it very entertaining when Cooper like flips? Yeah. Yeah, it's fun Gosh, there's a lot. I thought of running scared, not the eighties version, but the 2006 version starring the late Paul Walker. Oh yeah.

Oh wow. Which is a really cool movie, um, with Vera Farmiga. Um, Christopher McQuarrie's Way of the Gun. Oh. Which is his, I think his directorial debut after winning an Academy Award for the usual suspects. Ryan Philippi and Benicio del Toro. Yeah. Which is his, I think his directorial debut after winning an Academy Award for the usual suspects, Ryan Phillippe and Benicio del Toro. Yeah.

Which is very... I feel like we could just Google Ryan Phillippe's, like, screen credits and then they all just get ported directly onto the list. There's a lot of Dharam Scorsese, for sure. Um, I mean, the first two movies from Guy Ritchie are undeniably a part of this. Yeah.

Yeah, Lock, Stock and Snatch are both deeply... You think that those are more Scorsese than Tarantino. It's almost like... I think they're both. Just like Way of the Gun, I think is both. I think Usual Suspects in its way is both. But the two that stick out to me the most, I don't know if you've seen these. I know you've seen at least one of them, maybe probably both of them. When I was... I'll tell the story. I played baseball in high school. Yeah.

And... You didn't ump yourself though. No, that was for the little leakers. Yeah. When I was a teenager, I was on the baseball team. Our coach was Rob Graziano. Yeah. You can imagine a Rob Graziano.

Yeah, sure. Huge, huge fan of the films of Martin Scorsese. And, you know, he's a great coach, mentor to me, wonderful guy. And he put me onto a movie called Amongst Friends, which was made in 1993 and was directed by a guy named Rob Weiss. Here's the log line for the movie. Andy, Billy and Trevor are three friends living the life of privilege on Long Island. Out of boredom, the inseparable trio are drawn into the action

of the gangster criminal underworld inhabited by Andy's bookie grandfather. My coach, Graz, Mr. Graziano, was like, this is probably the best movie since Goodfellas. In 1993. In 1993. Okay, so I mean, that's like three years, but whatever. Not as long as you might think, but it's discussed at length in John Pearson's Spike, Mike Slackers and Dykes, and it was a part of this like wave of small crime movies that were

made in the aftermath of not just Goodfellas, but like Reservoir Dogs and all the early 90s movies. And so I saw it and I was like, this movie's incredible. You know, I was like 11 when it came out. You finally felt seen. I did. I was like, I too can be a piece of shit in the criminal underworld

as a child of privilege on Long Island. And I'm looking at it on Letterboxx right now and it's only been watched by one mutual. OK. Dave Weigel, the Semaphore reporter. Oh, yeah. Who is a bit of a cinephile himself, if you follow him on Letterboxx. And he's given it one star.

Wow. That's the only person who's seen this movie. I've seen it. I just didn't log out. Do we have to go retroactively log every movie we've ever seen? Almost every day I get somebody on social media being like, the feeling when I log a movie that Sean

Fantasy has never seen. And it's like... It's like Roman Holiday or something. And I'm like, sir, I've seen Roman Holiday. On social media, so like somebody will at you and then... Yeah. Like screenshot their letterbox, like, you haven't seen this, bro? And I'm like, come on, guys. Like, I didn't... I logged every movie I've ever seen.

Who has time for that? Not me. You're not responding to them. Except for right now, in this video. I brought it up, which shame on me. But... So Amongst Friends is one of those. brought it up, which is a shame on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Amongst Friends is one of those, and then the other one is Laws of Gravity. Which is, I know is a CR classic.

Just talked about this with Richard Price. That's right. So, speak on it now. Well, I just, so Nick Gomez was this up-and-coming indie filmmaker in the 90s and was very much kind of like the other side of what Sean is talking about, which is like person with the camera, gets their friends together, makes a little crime movie for 50,000 bucks and gets it in festivals.

And he went on to have a really cool career. He directed New Jersey Drive after this and worked in on Homicide Life on the Street. So it was like a very cool interview at the time. And when he made Laws of Gravity, which is basically like early, early, incredibly attractive, Edie Falco, I just have to say. Peter Green as like the wild cat, like I just got out of jail energy and then I can't Adam, I can't remember the guy's name is the sort of straight friend

who's trying to keep it up. Yeah, trying to keep it together. Nick Gomez made this and then like all the interviews, what are you going to do next? What are you gonna do next? And he's like, well, I'd love to do Clockers. I'd love to do Richard Price's Clockers, but I think Clockers is gonna be like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro, which is what it was originally gonna be, and then it wound up being Spike Lee and Harvey Keitel and Spike Lee rewrote

Richard Price's script. Yes, Clockers. And Richard Price, like, he saw a lot of things in it that I did not, and he was very gentlemanly about it. Clockhurst is also on my long list, as is Nick Gomez's New Jersey Drive. You know, in the 90s, this is a real boom time. I had Donnie Brasco. Donnie Brasco is a huge one.

Donnie Brasco directed by the Brit Mike Newell. Sure, yeah. The Brit! Like, in between... It's four weddings and a funeral, right? Right. Uh, yes, and then also Notting Hill. So, that's like what he was... He did do fourdings and a Funeral, right? Right. Yes, and then also Notting Hill. So that's like what he was... Right.

He did do Four Weddings and a Funeral, right? I think so. Richard Curtis didn't do... He wrote it. Yeah, but he doesn't start... Yes. And then there's a bunch of more sort of more mainstream studio movies that I think weigh a huge debt.

You mentioned Clockers, Get Shorty, which is an Elmore Leonard adaptation, but is very, like... movie made for people who've seen all the Scorsese movies. Right. Paul Thomas Anderson's Heart Eight, is undeniably influenced by a lot of these films. Like a blend of an Altman and Scorsese movie. The Wachowskis Bound, which we just mentioned

on a future episode of this show. Spoiler. Or just a good tease. Okay. Suicide a good tease. Okay. Suicide Kings. Yeah. Remember that movie? Seemed like a very important movie at the time.

That's the other thing with the garbage Scorsese movies. When they hit, you're like... Yeah, this is gonna be... A new voice. And then it's not. Would you call Bronx Tale a Scorsese, garbage Scorsese? Yeah. Old Chaz. But it's, I mean...

Because that's De Niro. One of only two movies directed by Robert De Niro. Can you name the other one? The Good Shepherd. That's right. Well, Chris knows because he's been reading the CIA files on John F. Kennedy's assassination. Did you know that The Good Shepherd, this was recently pointed out by Alex Ross Perry to me,

is entirely made up? It's not based on anything. Yeah, I know he's basically a fictional character that goes through all the like sort of major eras of CIA. So when you wrote it, why did you write it that way? Did Steve's alien write that? Who wrote that? I think so. I think that's correct.

I didn't have any more older films. The last one that I had, the last one I had was Good Time, Safdie Brothers. Oh, yeah. More contemporary. Sure. It's a great example. Is it garbagey?

No, I think it's great. But I just wanted to throw it out there as like it has the kinetic energy of Mean Streets. What about Smoke and Mises? Good Shepherd, just to save you guys from the notes, was not written by Steve Zalien. It was written by Eric Roth. Gotcha. Okay. One of the other master's The other gray beard of screenwriting genius smoking aces

Sure, see that Ryan Reynolds. Yeah, Andy Garcia Chris Pine Ray Liotta Common common Alicia Keys. Yeah, Alicia Keys plays a sniper in that movie, right? Definitely. Yeah. Joe Carnahan is directing RIPP. RIPP.

Which is the new film starring... RIPP was Jeff Bridges and somebody else. That's RIPD. Yeah. RIPD, very different from RIPP, which is a Ben Affleck, Matt Damon movie coming soon. Yeah. Joe Carnahan, excited about that?

Of course I am. That's also Apple TV, correct? Apple TV Plus. Yeah. Don't forget the plus. So, yeah. You don't have the plus. You have the 399 subscription. They just show me ads for AirPods every five minutes.

Do you think, do you think Garbage Scorcese movies are good? Yeah. They are some of my favorites. Do you think they're good? Some of them. They're comforting. You know, there's nothing wrong with, I mean, I guess there can be a lot wrong with reheating the work at Cinematic Master just to watch people shooting each other.

But it's an homage. It's done with love for the most part. It's because we all want to feel what we felt when we first saw Goodfellas. Is it love or is it a lack of creativity? Well, it could be both, but you know, not everyone can be Martin Scorsese, you know? No. We just, we don't,

genius does not walk among us every single day. So sometimes, I know, your Chris or your AI Chris sitting across the table from him, you know? Or other Chris prosthetic nose saying, great point, Chris. So it's... But that's okay. It's like that still makes you laugh, you know? So... How come you don't do character work like that?

Me? Yeah, like in prosthetics and would you consider it? She does a lot of physical comedy. Yeah, more Pratt Falls. Right. No, I do. More the Buster Keaton of podcasting. Martin Scorsese over here. That's really how I was thinking about that.

Is it a sign that we lack a little bit of creativity as a filmmaking community that this wonderful man has inspired so many knockoffs? It's hard because I think what happens is like, I thought of War Dogs, right? The Todd Phillips movie, which is very clearly garbage Scorsese. When don't we think of War Dogs?

Another movie that on paper I'm like, this is all the pieces to the puzzle, except it's not good. Yeah, great Bradley Cooper performance. Very entertaining. I wonder what that movie would be like if Martin Scorsese was never born. You know what I mean?

Counterpoint, Martin Scorsese was never born. You know what I mean? Counterpoint. Martin Scorsese himself is something of an encyclopedia of filmmaking. You know, and that all of his films feature, you know, French New Wave, Akira Kurosawa, Alfred Hitchcock, whatever, what have you. So in truth, ripping off Scorsese is merely paying homage to the great films of all time. Yes.

Mmm, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's not. It's not. Because he's omnivorous, but also he has a very specific style that he has. I mean, part of it is just that for the first half of his career, I mean, obviously, he's made a million movies and has done all sorts of things, but through Goodfellas, or I guess through Casino, and all sorts of things, but through Goodfellas, or I guess through Casino,

there is a very specific thematic, stylistic through line that is like, they're not just ripping off Scorsese, they're ripping off just like a little mini genre that he created and everyone truly loved. I think the tricky thing of Garbage Scorsese, I think you're right, is that it's an adoption of style, but not theme and motivation. So, like, what undergirds all the great Scorsese movies

is this, like, battle between fate and consequence and faith and desire. You know, these, like, big ideas that are kind of coursing through him using broad, dramatic genre to tell stories about people in crisis. I guess War Dogs is kind of that, but it's more like Miles Teller's baby needs a crib, so he's got to become an arms dealer. You know, like, isn't that the plot of the movie?

You know, it's like a cool script, but it's not about Harvey Keitel's tortured soul and mean streets. Yeah. Or he's going to be a priest or he's going to shoot guys in the head. You know, it's different. That's why it's garbage.

You know? That's why it's garbage. That's why it's garbage, yeah. Last question, or my last question was what filmmaker, since Scorsese, and is still active, in fact, somehow has attached two projects right now. I think four. Well, there's the Hawaii Departed.

There's Marilyn Robinson's Home. There's, what are the other two? Devil in the White City is apparently still- And he's absolutely cooking on Fox Nation right now, with the Saints doc. Yeah, which you have an upcoming episode about that on the Watch. That's the first episode of me interviewing me. I think the Devil in the White City with Leo is still possible.

Right. I think also his film about Jesus Christ with Kent Jones is apparently still happening. He was attached to The Wager, the David Grant nonfiction book. Was there a Hawaii one? That was the first one. Going with The Rock. That one seems like they made a quite

a big production out of announcing that. I'm waiting to hear from Martin Scorsese about that. The Rock came out and was like, it's so great to be working with like the great Marty Scorsese. Yeah. So that made it sound like that was going to happen. Are you implying that The Rock always tells the truth? No, but I am implying that Emily Blunt, Leonardo DiCaprio, Martin Scorsese and The Rock want to go to Hawaii.

As do I. I, here's my thing about that. I subscribe to your theory that people will often make movies like this to go on extravagant vacations and to be surrounded by beauty and history. But like The Rock, he could go to a Florida goal in Hawaii. He just made Moana too. I'm pretty sure he's been to Hawaii. Also, of all the people, I don't think Marty does really want to go to Hawaii. You know what he wants to do? Watch movies. Sit in a dark room like me. Watch films.

He's running out of time. Worry about Marty on the set of The Wager. You know, a lot of water, a lot of thrown guys around and that. So I'd like him to stay put. Stick with Christ, you know? Yeah. There was a, I was looking at unmade Martin Scorsese projects, blog posts. And there was one called Jesus Christ in New York,

where it was just like modern day JC walking through. That was about me in 2006. I'm still... At a fucking dipset, mixtape listening session. I'm just, I'm really excited for Odyssey, our second season, which will be about The Wager, you know? We're looking for projects right now. Once they're done in Greece, we'll just get you in that Wager, you know? We're looking for projects right now. Once they're done in Greece,

we'll just get you in that water tank, you know? Can you, just for Alice purposes, can you just record a page by page reading of The Wager so that I can play it for her on the YOTO every night? Do you think that that would calm her? I think it might, yeah. I'll read her Anna Karenina. Well, that would certainly put her to sleep.

Hey now. Closing thoughts, you feel good? Well, we said we were gonna do a top ten, and this is like 15. We do that every time. Okay. No, we don't. You wanna do the top ten? No, I just didn't know whether you wanted some sort of... Lop off Good Time, because Good Time is actually a good movie,

and I broke the reverse chronological order. Bike riders. Hustlers. Hot summer nights. Mmm riders. Hustlers. Hot summer nights. American hustle. American gangster. Put American in your movie. Alpha dog. Blow. Donnie Brasco.

Amongst friends laws of gravity. Okay. I think it would have been better to have Casino. A lot of your choices. Casino is the most honorable mention. A lot of my choices? Yeah, the umpire and the player. That wasn't good list making, you know? I love you, but you were just like, I made some great calls here. I made the long list, came up with the idea. You did a great job. We appreciate you always. Okay, good. Make your list. Fire away. Go ahead. Big time.

Mommy deleted the long list. It's right here. It's on Letterboxd. I sent it to you. But like our... Did you know that I made it and I shared it with you, but nobody else has it? Yeah, it's private. It's only us. Oh, wow.

So only you guys have it. Yeah. That's beautiful. Will you now release it to the public? Did we have edit privileges? Not after the way that you acted towards me. Yeah. That's beautiful. Will you now release it to the public? Did we have edit privileges? Not necessarily the way that you acted towards me. Could we have edited?

I didn't do anything. Could we have added things to the list? I, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to call Jim Letterbox right now. Jim? Um, okay, great.

Well, like I said, 25 for 25 coming later this week. No tips. You guys just in the way yet? We're not doing it even. Like, I really, I want to do Disney Princess Hell with Prince's dad over here, but he's... Yeah, he's not available to... at this moment. So we'll wait for the next... I know.

The next Princess movie, we'll get in the mix. It'll be me and Sean on a duck boat talking... Talking Odyssey night shoots. Yeah, well, I'm looking for some microprocesses. So it's going to be a while before I can see Snow White. Thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner. Thank you to Jack Sanders. Sierra, what do you got cooking up?

Not much. I'm going to Boston. Yeah. What's on the watch when you're in Boston? We're recording it tomorrow. It'll be Dope Thief, The Pit, and maybe some Top Chef. Maybe some... Top Chef hasn't really...

You've really been neglecting Top Chef as someone who only knows what's happening on Top Chef when you recap it. And I appreciate that you want to honor Kaya's relationship to Top Chef and you don't want to spoil it for her. We spoil the pit every week for her. You know what? I think Kaya can catch up on Top Chef. I love you, Kaya. She does a great job on your Instagram.

Yeah, she does. She knows how to use all the stickers. She does. Yeah. Let me tell you something about The Pit. I haven't seen one minute of it. It's one of those shows that's like a show that somebody on a TV show is watching

and they're like, I love this show. And I'm like, oh, it must be fun for those characters. Like, you and Andy talking about the pit, it's like my buddies have something that I'll never have access to. Like, I just can't. I did watch Adolescents. Did you watch that?

I will never watch it. Because they, like, and I know Andy started off his recap of the first one being like, as a parent, it was OK for me. No, it's not OK for me. Won't be doing it. What's your review? I thought it was okay for me. No, it's not okay for me. Won't be doing it. Um, what's your review? I thought it was terrific.

Um, and TV is back really powerful. And, um, I thought your discussion, especially the second discussion that you guys had was excellent. Thank you. Um, I, it is terrifying to consider the real world stakes of that story. Yeah. Yeah. And very well made.

And I thought impressively unshowy given the strategy that they took to make it and wildly good performances. So I was very, very impressed. That's great to hear. I'm glad you enjoyed it so much. Thank you, Dr. Television. The pit is harrowing, But there's something about it.

It's just the most reliably satisfying thing I've watched this year. I read a headline about The Pit, which was like, how to, you know, simulate a live birth for TV. And then it was like something involving a puppet. And I was like, once again, I'm out. I will not be watching this I mean, that's cool. It's it's an extensive extensive birth scene. Yeah, that's You know, I'm how did it feel being so close to the scene? You feel energized you feel moved

That spirit yeah, you know, just wondered, you know, I guess that's the miracle of life That's as close as I'm going to get. Okay. Unless anybody wants to invite me into their- What do you mean? You're, there's about to be a second Chris Ryan that will be birthing soon on podcasts. That's going to be more like a Severance thing. You know what I mean? Like, it's a little bit of your Innie and your Audi.

Uh, okay. Well, thank you for listening to this show. We'll be back later this week with 25 for 25. See you then.