The Big Picture - The Top 10 Movies Scenes of 2023 and ‘American Fiction’ With Cord Jefferson

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

Sean and Amanda open the show by talking about their five favorite scenes of the 2023 movie year (1:00), before digging into one of the most exciting directorial debuts of the year: Cord Jefferson’s ‘American Fiction’ (24:00). They talk about the state of family dramas and satires as genres and how ‘American Fiction’ succeeds as a refreshing mix of the two. Then, Sean is joined by Jefferson to talk about the expected and unexpected challenges of directing a film when you have a background as a writer, the movie’s deep and wonderful cast, what kinds of things he’s gravitating toward working on next, and more (38:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Cord Jefferson Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Galaxy lights, Coachella, lightning bolt necklaces. 2023 was the year of Scandival. On March 3rd, one cheating scandal launched a reality TV investigation that generated hundreds of conspiracy theories, thousands of podcast episodes, and millions of dollars in revenue. I'm Jodi Walker, host of An American Scandival. One retrospective story told in three salacious parts. Listen December 26th on the Ringer Reality Feed. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about the thin line between fiction and truth. Today, we will be talking about one of the more exciting directorial debuts of the year, Cord Jefferson's American Fiction. Got to know Cord a little bit socially well before he was an acclaimed filmmaker and TV writer, so it's been kind of amazing to watch the reception of this movie, to see this movie, to experience it. Cord came by the show, we talked, had a nice interesting conversation about the run-up to making this movie, making this movie.

I hope you'll stick around for my conversation with Cordy. He's a great guy. First, we're still working through our top tens of the year. We've got a good one today. Is this the best one? I think so. Our favorite movie scenes of the year. You feel ready for this? I do.

Okay. How do we start? Has it been a year of great movie scenes? Of course. I mean, it is easier to do a scene than a whole movie, you know? So sometimes if you don't get the, like the whole thing, at least you have moments of transcendence, but you know, there were also, again, in my top fives, incredible scenes that I, in my top five films of the year, incredible scenes that I did not include because, you know, I'm trying to to spread the wealth so just to

spoil your top five your number one is peaches from the super mario brothers movie as sung by jack black is that right yeah I had totally forgotten that that happened I thought that was who sang the 90s peaches song uh the presidents of the united states of america I thought that was the reference that you were going do. Do you remember their other big hit, The Presidents? No, all I remember is peaches come in a can. Keep going. They were put there by a man in a factory one day. No one's turning the pot off right now.

No one is turning it off. They're turning it up. Just keep turning it up as Amanda sings. What was the other one? It was Lump. She's lump. Oh, yeah. She's lump. She's in my head yeah wow what's up what's up to all my gen z kids what's up millennials we did it we sang the president the episode the episode where i'm a gen z mommy hasn't aired yet right no it hasn't no

no okay one week from today i love you guys this joke i love you back in in a week check out some tunes every time a photo of you is posted on the internet people just write in the comments that's mother do you like you do understand that's like a whole internet thing right yeah of course i do i don't sometimes i don't i don't know what internet you're looking at i'm so with it you can't believe how with it i am this is the coolest i've ever been right now in this exact moment you just got a haircut and the person who cuts your hair does a did a wonderful job but styles your hair differently than you do and it's really distracting for me right now because i look much worse much better no no it's just different like you have more you bang sort of

okay you know they're looser what's going on right now well It's just different. Like you have more you bang sort of. Okay. You know, they're looser. I have no idea what's going on right now. Well, it's just not it's not the swoop in the same way. It's the, you know, there's more texture. Sometimes you gotta let it all hang out.

You know? I guess so. That's what we're doing today. This is our last recording of the year even though it's not our last episode of the year and we're just letting it hang out. Yeah.

You know who let it hang out? Yeah. The director of your number five movie scene of the year. Oh, sure. Yeah. See, that's a seg out? Yeah. The director of your number five movie scene of the year. Oh, sure. Yeah. See, that's a segues. Left and right.

Go ahead. Fire me up. Thank you. A round of applause from our producer. Thank you, Robert. Can you cut in like an actual round of applause? Yeah, my number five is the Tesla scene from Sam Esmail's Leave the World Behind,

which is just a really perfect image that I have thought about many, many times since I saw it, both in relationship to the film. It is it's a great and inventive and funny creation that of the film and of its themes. And then it's also, you know, just a, a great comment on certainly Tesla's in the world and also just tech, you know, technology and idiocy and in the world at large. Yeah. Technology run amok, just great image making. Yeah.

Just the, like all the white ones all lined up together. Really funny. And it's, you know, that's as soon as you see all the Tesla's park, that very first shot, it's that like,

Oh, you know what's going to happen, but it is just like... I feel like we were nudging each other in the theater. I burst out laughing because I was like, this is perfect. This is a summary of everything that is wrong with... I don't know. Certainly Tesla's. I like that scene a lot too.

I like this movie a lot too. And I noted with interest, it's been number one on Netflix's movie chart for like 15 days. Which it kind of feels like the I mean it's just in a kind of metric perspective like Don't Look Up like when Don't Look Up came out

it was just like the number one movie on the service for like a month. And I'm sure a big part of that is Julia Roberts and Mahershala Ali and the kind of star power in the movie. But it's been a while

since there's been a Netflix original that has dominated in the way that this one has. We're obviously recording's been a netflix original that has dominated in the way that this one has we're obviously recording a little bit before maestro is officially released on the platform and i wonder if that one will take it over or not it's possible that it will not bob do you want to share your leave the world behind easter egg that you spotted after i failed to and i let sam down yeah i don't know if this was the one that sam was referring to maybe it could have been the painting which a lot of people have noticed there have been sort of reddit threads that

the painting changes in the house i did notice that from the beginning to the end but the thing that i think that i noticed is that the dead pilot on the beach is sam s male himself he's put himself in his film much like some of his influences alfred hitchcock in uh in particular he does this in the pilot of Mr. Robot, which I was watching recently and noticed him standing there because we had just recorded with him like a couple of days earlier. And I was like, that's Sam. I just saw that face. I know that face. That's weird. And it's like that strange thing of seeing a person on TV that you know. And so then my mind was kind of like switched on ready to see it. So I think he was the pilot.

I think that's what he was referring to. I haven't seen it. I don't remember that when we watched it the first time. I didn't either. Okay, my number five. It's like a five frame shot. It's like there for like half a second. So you want everyone to screenshot it and send it to at AK Dobbins, right?

That's what everyone should do who's listening to this. And Sam. Exactly. And also say, Mother, we found him. We got him, Mother. Mother.

Okay, my number five is it's the Mariah Carey sex scene from Boa's Afraid. It got him, mother. Mother. Okay, my number five is it's the Mariah Carey sex scene from Bo is Afraid. It's a great pick. This is the hardest I laughed in a movie. I was like,

I was applauding at this moment. Obviously, just I want to send my love and support to Parker Posey for her fearlessness

in this performance. I haven't heard enough about the prosthetics magician who created uh bow's balls for this scene but really just standout work on um his his oversized testicles which is of course a critical theme in this film absolutely a man who just cannot complete you know who just cannot get what he needs to. He can't finish what he needs to finish. And the one time he gets the chance to finish, set to the beautiful strains of Mariah Carey, the woman dies.

And this is just, this was like high level. This is like the Marx Brothers walked so Ari Aster could run, in my opinion. And I love this movie. Also legitimately wonderful and hilarious that Mariah Carey went to the Boas Afraid premiere. That is really good. Walked the carpet, posed with Ari Aster. Good stuff. Yes.

The queen of Long Island is in on the joke and we appreciate her. Okay. What's your number four? My number four is a scene that we talked about at length very recently um which is the the the conducting mauler some in the church in maestro which just is an absolutely transcendent like six minutes minutes of of music and movies and and acting and and sweating um and and prosthetics uh as well of a different sort tremendous stuff total cinema baby stuff. Total cinema baby. Yeah. There's nothing else you can say about it. I'm surprised this is as low as it is on your list. I left it for you.

Thank you. As I was making mine. Or maybe you left it for yourself. I don't remember who went first on this one. I went first and I took it. I don't know. These could all be mixed and matched, I think. I kind of agree. And then, like, my honorable mentions are also the best scenes of the year. I don't know. We're just tossing out things we love. We're hanging up. We're saying good scenes. Yeah.

My number four is a cheat. It's two scenes, though they do come in rapid succession in the most entertaining action movie of the year. That, of course, is John Wick 4. And the two scenes are the Dragon's Breath shootout scene, heavily inspired by first-person shooters with the overhead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of fake one. Don't, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.

This is a moment of celebration. I think that this is a little cowardly to just pick Sacrifice, you know? That was the second half of my pick. And that is one of the best scenes of the year. And that is on my short list. Do you love it because there's no guns in it and you feel that we should expel guns from that also is was like a genuine delightful comedy and inventiveness like i started laughing and cheering and it was

completely delightful as well as um no guns i just like i sure first person shooters yeah we all have video games. Great. That's cool. But that's not what makes it cool. It's how cool that gun looks when it's shooting people and lighting them on fire.

I guess so. I like the other one better. They're both good. They're both like incredible examples of the great staging and time and effort and stunt work

that goes into make these films so wonderful. And I can't wait to see what Chad Stahelski does next. And the image of Keanu Reeves, like holding his suit jacket to like block bullets is still like one of the great weird ideas in movie history. But I love it.

Like it doesn't work at all and yet it works perfectly. So that's my number four. Okay, number three. My number three is another entrant in the just fucking shit up in europe uh category i mentioned it on like a mailbag recently but it's so it's the the rome kind of like car chase stunt experience from mission impossible dead reckoning part one which is another example of like screwball action like comedy paired with incredible step work really really funny really

exciting actually filmed in in the place where it's set to the best of my as best i could tell um so i love it stuff you could have picked a couple of other scenes from this i know the train just the whole train sequence especially the last five minutes of the train sequence that's really good the cj is not quite there but otherwise it's really good yeah yeah what else

there's another one that I'm forgetting oh I loved I see I loved the kind of the fight on the bridge oh yeah beautiful

and then the fight in the alleyway yeah Venice you know that part is wonderful too Tom Cruise running emotional

my number three is a film is a also a scene we talked about at length on our Anatomy of a Fall episode

I'm reluctant to say too much if you haven't seen this movie yet, but there is a fight between a couple who is at the center of a crime in the film. And that fight is being presented in a courtroom and it has been recorded. And so the audio is shared with the courtroom, but we see this fight transpire, uh, in almost in,

you know, the recreation of it between the two actors who are having that fight. And it is riveting and incredibly well written and amazingly performed uh very upsetting and pivotal i think to the understanding of the movie or your interpretation of the movie which is of course what makes the movie so great is that it it can hold the weight of many interpretations if you've not seen anatomy of a fall Fall, highly, highly, highly recommend it. Check it out. It's one of the best of the year.

Okay, number two. My number two is the Trinity Test in Oppenheimer. Wow, good for you. Yeah, wow. Interesting, interesting choice. I read it Oppenheimer yesterday. You rented it? I rented it, yeah.

Did you go to the library? Where'd you get it? From the internet, you know, on my TV. You didn't purchase it? No, I didn't. Little okay you know on my tv you didn't you didn't purchase it no i did it little did you know you could have come to my home and borrowed my 4k right but yet you didn't curious will you will my dvd player play your 4k um i highly doubt it because you probably got your dvd player in 1997 i don't know number one it's zach's so i can't speak to he brought that to the marriage i guess i guess it's shared property now um i think he there was one stipulation in the prenup that zach would retain ownership of the dvd player no matter what happens between you two so when you record a fight and it's presented in

the courtroom okay i will i will testify that the dvd player Zach. Anyway. The longest running saga in the big picture's history is Amanda not knowing whether or not she can play Blu-rays. I think I can. And then she's like, then Zach got rid of his gaming console, so we can't play it on that. You know, like that's... Can those play Blu-rays?

Could Zach's 10-year-old PlayStation play a Blu-ray? If it's a PlayStation 4. It costs like $39 to get a Blu-ray player. Like, honestly, shame on you. You rented Oppenheimer. I rented Oppenheimer and I fast-forwarded it a while and I just watched the,

I watched the Trinity scene, which I'm counting because I, you know, in many ways, the first two hours could be the Trinity test, but I'm starting it. It's right,

right after another very good scene when Killian Murphy and Matt Damon are just kind of having coffee and talking and, and Killian Murphy, I guess Oppenheimer's like, there's a non-zero chance that we could light the atmosphere. And Matt Damon's like, I would, you know, zero would be nice. And then you cut to like getting the gang together and it is like a you know very exciting lots of cuts between all of the different characters my guy Josh Hartnett looking just like absolutely like a movie star just staring off into the distance um how are they going to get it together how's everyone getting ready where's everyone's emotions like it's like very people focused for a while and it's like an amazing score and then they finally you know they do the thing that christopher nolan has been promising for several years and it looks good and also the choice of cutting out the sound is just like

exhilarating um very very effective probably the best in-theater moment of the year. The best, like, in the movie theater experience of 2023. Yeah. Is the lead-up to and the execution of that moment. So, great pick. I was amused that you selected it before me. My number two is... If you have not seen this movie, I'm reluctant to say too much about this as well, but it is from our collective number one movie of the year, which is Killers of the Flower Moon.

It is the staging of the final scene of the movie, or I guess maybe the second to last scene of the movie, technically speaking. But it is a kind of epilogue to the tale, and who delivers the epilogue is profound and a very bold artistic choice and um beautifully i mean this this is it but we've talked a lot about killers of the flower moon so again i just you know and i haven't gotten to share my appreciation for oppenheimer enough so um i want to thank you for your service anytime my guy just let me you know anytime just just give me a call and we'll talk about what you did good. What will Gen Z mommy do when she's roasted publicly by the interstellar 26-year-olds? I think an important part of motherhood that I'm learning in my real life and also in my Gen Z mommy life is letting the kids do their own thing

and discover their own passions. They don't have to be 1,000% aligned with me. And if they need to roast me in order to create that independence and space for themselves, they should feel free. Yeah, this is a woman letting go of her ego. I feel differently about the film Interstellar.

I think we should be treating that as contraband. We should not let young people watch that film because it is poisoning their brains. I think it's like two hours and 20 minutes of excellence. And then like 20 minutes of dog. What happened? What happened to you? You used to be beautiful. It's just real Samuel Jackson and Jackie Brown stuff.

Okay. So that's my number two. Yeah. So you're number one. Yeah. The opening feast and really like the opening preparation for the feast and the taste of things, which is one of your favorite films of this year. And mine too.

I'm excited for more people to get a chance to see it. I mean, this is, it's, it's characters preparing a meal, but the, the way that they are cooking and the way that it is shot is like a completely exhilarating action sequence it is the mission impossible of food it is balletic it is like it is so exciting and and it has that thing of as you're sitting there watching it in real time you're like wow i've never seen someone i've never seen this on the screen before and i you know i wonder how they did this and it looks it's just you know i have like a lot of questions about copper pans that i would like to ask so um but it is also beautiful and communicates like food as as art yeah and as love and as love that's true i one thing i like about that scene a lot and we'll talk about a lot more when i think the movie's coming on february 9th in the u.s um more widely and hopefully we'll have

tron on hunghung and maybe maybe maybe one or two of the stars on the show which would be exciting but there's nothing explained in the scene it just sort of starts in media res

they're just preparing and you're just thrust into the story the way you would be in a John Wick chapter 4 so I think that action comparison is apt beautiful pick

beautiful movie my number one is I guess what I'm calling the Uber from Past Lives the closing sequences of Past Lives. Again, a film, if you have not seen it, I'm reluctant to spoil it for you. Interesting that we've chosen many endings

from films on our list here. This is, to me, the best ending of the year. Talked about it at length with both you and Celine Song on the show. I think many people will be discovering it more and more as the Oscar race heats up. I really hope this film competes well and so that more people will get a chance to see it. A very simple but brilliant use of cinematic language.

Like a very well-written scene, a well-acted scene, but a scene that is like fully intentional in terms of the direction that characters are moving, where the camera's going, and how Greta Lee and Teo Yu are performing in the scene. Don't want to say anything else beyond that. Wonderful scene. Any honorable mentions you want to say? Yeah. Well, you know, both the past life scene and the Killers of the Flower Moon scene were certainly on my list. Also, the afterlife scene from Killers of the Flower Moon. But those are in my top five.

Other movies that were in my top five include barbie so that i'm just ken dream ballet is the one that stays with me you see that they mark ronson and ryan gosling have released like several new versions of i'm just ken they're just like broing out now interesting okay and campaigning and i love it thank you so much merry christmas to all um the makeup lesson in May, December. I like this pic. But also, I mean, it's hard to pick a scene in May, December because also the dress scene with the double mirrors in May, December. And Sacre Curve from John McFort would be on my list as well. I had a few. Austerlitz from Napoleon. Yeah. Hearing very mixed things

about Napoleon out in the world, people need to have more fun. Just have a little bit of fun. That is what I said to you throughout the episode. So... Yeah, yeah, I guess. You know.

I liked it. I liked it. Just have more fun, you know? We haven't talked very much about poor things, but there's a scene that is teased in the trailer that is a big dance sequence

in Poor Things. It is very funny. It is beautifully choreographed. And that is teased in the trailer that is a big dance sequence in poor things is very funny that is beautifully choreographed and that is a real one of many going for it moments from emma stone she's marvelous in that movie uh if it sounds stupid saying it like this but the canon event chase sequence and spider-man across the spider-verse which is sort of like the big climactic chase where all the spider-men are all kind of racing after Miles Morales. And they're sort of revealing this world upon world upon world of Spider-Man. But it's basically just like one big gag sequence. It's like felt very Lego movie to me in a good way.

It's like kind of Lord Miller's style at its very best. And also beautifully animated and critical to the telling of the story. It's rare that you can do both the like, ha ha, get it thing while also pushing the story forward. So I love that scene. The skinny dipping beach fight in No Hard Feelings is like

the bravest thing I've seen from a young female or male actor in like a long time. And I'm still trying to figure out like what happened to that movie, which is not like an all-time film. I think it was finally streaming on Netflix a few months ago and has done very well there.

It did very well there. Yeah, I know. It's so annoying. I hate that. What are you going to do? I don't want to forget about Matt Damon's performance in Air. Yeah. I haven't forgotten about it in Air.

The big pitch at the end is great Matt Damon. Yes, of course. And really, really great writing. And I wonder, do you think if that movie was released in November, we'd be thinking differently about it? Because I was looking at Gold Derby yesterday, and I was noting with interest that many of the editors at Gold Derby have air in their top 10 for Best Picture. Yeah, because those… And obviously, these people do this for a living. Yeah.

Well, I think also those guys are like really starting the campaign again. That's what I mean. There's a lot of star power. Right. To end the FYC events. And it's like rolling out Matt Damon and Viola Davis in front of people. Right. And Ben Affleck.

Ben, obviously. He's doing director on director. We haven't... We've been kind of dismissing it as we've been discussing it. But I think there's a chance. Okay. You don't think so? Well, once again

i think that we are being too american in our projections and i i understand the power of nike and certainly the power of mount matt damon giving inspirational sports speeches about sports movies that don't feature sports but like we get that but but the Academy is increasingly international and we've got Zone of Interest coming. We've got Anatomy of a Fall. We'll see. We'll see. Was it nominated for Golden Globe, musical or comedy? I believe so.

Okay. We have the ability to Google that right now. Why don't you do it? Let's do it. Golden Globes, 2024 nominations. Always good to say the words you're Googling. People love that. Do you feel like you're a good Googler?

I do. I do. I think I'm very efficient. Zach thinks I'm a really bad Googler. It was nominated for Best Picture, Musical, or Comedy. Yeah. I think it's competing. Okay.

I think it's Amazon. I mean, you know, Amazon's got, they've got power. They've got money. Sure. But they're also putting their money behind a comedy that we are going to talk about in the second half of this episode. They are. Well, let's start that second half now, don't you think? I do.

Segues. That's how we do it here. Yeah. Another round of applause for Amanda this time. Thank you so much. Okay, let's talk about American Fiction, which is a film that has been hotly tipped since the Toronto International Film Festival, where it premiered in September and won the Audience Award, which of course is a major predictor of the Academy Awards. And this movie has been doing pretty well.

It's on the AFI list, nominated, got a few nominations at the Golden Globes. Cord, who has written on The Good Place and Succession and a lot of your favorite shows, like a lot of the most acclaimed shows of the last five to seven years. Gord Jefferson has been on the writing staff of those shows and has trained under some really, really smart people. I think most especially Mike Schur.

And if you actually look at this movie through the lens of the Mike Schur project, I think it actually makes a lot more sense. Yes, very perceptive. And it's based on a 2001 novel by Purcell Everett, which Gord said he read during the pandemic and just immediately was like, I need to adapt this. This story speaks to me.

There's so many things in the, in the, in the book that I'm interested in. Uh, it follows a frustrated writer and academic named Monk, who was played by Jeffrey Wright in the film. He was kind of fed up with the establishment. He's fed up with the publishing industry. He's fed up with academia. He's fed up with what the world and in many respects, the white world wants from black artists.

And he starts to see the rise of a certain kind of black fiction in the world that he finds offensive or frustrating about the way that black people are portrayed. And so in a fit of kind of drunken frustration, writes a kind of thumbyour-eye parody of what that kind of fiction is. And lo and behold, that parody that he kind of hates, he shares with his agent, and his agent is able to sell very quickly. And not just sell, but sell for a great sum of money. Now, that is one half of the movie. And that alone is enough for a really interesting kind of movie.

There have been movies like this before. The Hollywood Shuffle by Robert Townsend is one that Court has cited. Spike Lee's Bamboozled has come up as a comparison point. And then, in addition to that, there's this whole other film that is about a man going to spend time with his sister and then ultimately his extended family and his mother who is starting to be, who is ailing, and sort out kind of their past and figure out how to take care of their future. And it's just a very intimate, quiet, thoughtful family drama.

And so this is hard to do, to balance these two stories. I think he did it pretty well. I laughed a lot at this movie. I was wondering what half of the movie is more effective for you. For me, it was the emotional, the family half, but that's only because this movie is, I think, who am I to judge marketing?

But this, rightly, it is being sold on the satire half. Yes, it is. And so I was not expecting, frankly, like the level of feeling in the family drama. And I was like very moved by it. The performances are excellent. All of the actors have a connection that, you know, there are some surprising elements to this story and how they use certain actors,

which I didn't expect and was also moved by. So yeah, it like, it really works. And that tone is really hard to get right and also balances out the... I think the satire half does a good job of never getting too in your face. It takes some bold... It has a few really bold choices. One is this sort of recreation of what's happening in his mind as he's creating the characters, which I think really works. Absolutely.

And then there's one at the end, which I think your mileage may vary on, where he sort of is showing us variations on his own story and the story he's writing. Yeah, which is an incredible cameo performance by Adam Brody is all I'll say about that. Very, very funny guy. We did talk a little bit about this character. It was really good. A lot of the... I've been asking every producer friend of mine

who is a white guy who thinks he's, like, down for the cause, or do you feel indicted by this character? And they've all said no, but they all should be because they are, like,

are all kind of guilty of a little... a scintilla of what Adam Brody is bringing to this movie. He's very, very funny. It's also just like beautifully cast. Everybody in the movie, you know, Hollywood legend,

Leslie Uggams as Monk's mother. You mentioned Sterling K. Brown in our performances episode. Hilarious and a very different kind of performance from him in this movie. Tracee Ellis Ross as his sister, Lisa. Issa Rae as Centaur Golden, the writer who kind of drives him crazy as he sees her being celebrated by white people at a white people book festival. Eric Alexander, who I loved growing up on Living Single. Where has she been? She's so

warm, so great. Yeah, and they have, you know, instant chemistry. They're perfect together. Yeah. So really, really wonderful cast. Very fun movie. A little broad at times. You know, it's like a little tricky to do this kind of satire. Like you'll see the word biting attached to satire

anytime it's described. And there are times when it is very biting and then there are other times where it is like the biggest easy target in the world is like the dumb,

well-meaning people who work at the publishing company. Sure. They're like, what if we did this on Juneteenth, you know? Yeah, right. But they're a thing, an in-joke.

And I don't even know whether it was intentional, but one of the marketing people at the book is played by Miriam Shore. Yes, having quite a year. Who's having quite a year. But also, are you familiar with her role on Younger? It was pointed out to me when I watched this film with my wife. So she, Miriam Shore, as did I. with her role on Younger. It was pointed out to me when I watched this film with my wife. So she, Miriam Shore,

as did I, and Younger is about a book publishing company and Miriam Shore plays the marketing chief on Younger. So that's like a very funny joke within the joke if you're following along.

Yeah, she was also in Maestro this year in a small role and very good in that, particularly that sequence near the end. She was on in Just Like That this year.

I noticed she's been in a bunch of stuff this year. So she's like a very seasoned Broadway performer. And that's like smart movies do things like this. They put very, very talented people in little tiny parts and let them just nail their parts. So it's a pretty exciting movie. For a first time out,

you mentioned the Amazon aspect of it. It's really more of an MGM movie, but of course MGM is owned by Amazon these days. And I don't know if it's like the little movie that could necessarily, but I would not have guessed when I read the headline that Jeffrey Wright was starring in Kord's first movie that like, well, let's pave the way to the Academy Awards here. But it kind of feels like that's happening. It absolutely does.

I mean, I think it will, I do think it will get a Best Picture nominee. I think, like, instead of air, you know, not instead of, but I think if, like, the Amazon money gets one spot, it's going to American Fiction. I think that Kord will certainly be nominated for Adapted Screenplay.

Might win. It's possible. It's possible. I don't know. Did you pick that in? I can't remember. I think that you did. And I think you also picked Jeffrey Wright to win in Best Actor.

I think he'll certainly be nominated, which is really exciting. Yeah. I mean, an actor that is funny. When we turned the movie on last night, my wife and I, to watch it for the second time, she was like, like oh you love him which like I do I have always loved Jeffrey Wright

I think he's like magnificent in Asteroid City this year too and it's just one of those actors who makes everything he's in better very rarely has the opportunity to lead a project

and gets to play two very different tones two very different experiences of life in this movie and very relatable you know that sort

of like willful empathy that you have to bring to experiences with your family where you cannot and even if you're kind of like a slightly embittered cynical person which of course I am when you're in those experiences you cannot bring that energy to family because it fucks with everything like it's a much too delicate ecosystem. But in life, to be dubious of everyone, and there's a scene in particular that stuck out to me the second time where Centara and Monk are judging a book prize together

along with a handful of other authors. Right. And it's kind of a conclusive intellectual moment where he really tries to penetrate how she can do the work that she does and feel good about it. And she has a rejoinder about serving the marketplace and they're both very cynical and they're both very sincere at the same time and neither one is right and the movie

doesn't like insist that one idea is better than the other and you can certainly read into whoever you think is correct in this way i haven't read either of their writing because they're fictional characters but uh i like a movie that is willing to kind of like jab at your brain that way to say like who do you who do we think because you know she's centaur is a little younger than monk she's a little bit more pragmatic about the concept of success she's clearly not interested in this like increasingly ancient concept of selling out. Right. But also his

the things that he says to her feel really like he has really thought through that what identity means to the public at large and especially to the white public. And

you know, this is like you can feel Kord arguing with himself between these two characters. which is really, really good writing. I don't know how much of that comes out of from the novel or not. But I think letting Jeffrey Wright do that in the movie and people still and people not being mad at him is a gift that Wright has. Like he is, we're willing to stay with him despite the fact that he is so kind of grouchy and so ungenerous to those who are not him yeah as a character so really one of my favorite actors and i really love him this willie win best actor uh you know it's like bradley cooper and uh killian murphy

are in like a death war right now okay but that's like that's the race of the year but what about giamatti well so that this is what I was going to say. Now, there are two prevailing theories in the awards universe, which is like, is there some sort of weird, I don't care about these hyper-serious psychos fighting for this race? What I liked was the holdovers. Right. Or what I liked was American fiction. I think the Giamatti theory is a better one. And I think if campaigned correctly,

he could win because everybody likes Paul Giamatti. Yeah. And he's out here. I just, you know, received the update that he'll be in Palm Springs like everybody else getting the honorary award. I have been proposing this since the beginning. Well, you just want to stay in Palm Springs for 14 days. Yeah. But will you attend Paul Giamatti's celebration? Of all of the celebrations, that'll definitely be the most convivial, right? Paul Giamatti just loves being out with Santa Barbara. Surrounded by 78-year-old men. Yeah, sure. He's been like, hello. Thank you for everything you've given us. This is why I do the work. Yeah. I still love Pinot Noir. We're not going to go to go to that I don't think I do think he could win

what about Santa Barbara what about it the Santa Barbara film festival I'd like to buy a home in Santa Barbara will someone buy a home for me can Kevin Costner buy me a house

in Santa Barbara that would be nice I think it depends on how Horizon does so maybe he'll be able to great point you think he wants to be giving out homes

well he sunk all of his money into it. Over under right now, $150 million worldwide for Horizon. Under. Under. Under. Yeah. Under.

Because all of the Sheridan boys will just wait to watch it at home, respectfully. Wow. Shame on Chris. That's really, really sad. Well, Chris waits to watch things all the time. The most chilling moment of 2023 bro division was when you guys shared that you spent your night out

like planning coverage for Kevin Costner's Horizon movie event. Oh, when me and the boys had dinner? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We just, we respect men

who have a strong vision. Do you know he's dating Jewel now? Jewel? Yeah, Kevin Costner's dating Jewel. The singer-songwriter Jewel? Yes. Who will save your soul, Jewel?

Yeah, like as of today of this recording, according to page six, like, you know, who can know what's going on in his post-divorce life, but. Do you remember when Kurt Loder on MTV destroyed Jewel's grammar in her poetry book by pointing out that she misused the word casualty? Yes, I do. That was the meanest thing I've ever seen and honestly, I loved it. You guys have never sounded older

than right now. I think that was like 1997. Do you know any of the music of Jewel, Bobby? Maybe if you played it, but could not name a song. You don't know

who will save your soul? No. If you weren't there when You Were Me for Me hit, you're fucking sleeping. Like you were meant for me. Foolish games. I probably actually was swaddled asleep as a baby. Probably, Bobby, someone sang it to you to lull you to sleep because Jewel, you know, had sort of had a falsetto and was very soothing tones.

Yeah. My mom was much more of a Clapton head, though. I don't think she was bumping Jewel. The narrative around Jewel was great. It was that, one, she's from Alaska. Two, she was a trained yodeler. Three, I think she was homeless. She grew up in a house with no running water and then was homeless for a while.

I do remember that. Wrote the songs and then sold. I think that album sold like 8 million copies. Of course it did. It was a huge album. It was insane, yeah. yeah did she do you're a trained yodeler too sean right uh i i am and let's pause now while i yodel for five minutes here we go i'm not gonna do that uh didn't she she dated someone else pretty nuts now i'm just reading jules wikipedia page personal life accolades this is this is why this is the premier film podcast in the country we are doing the work uh i'm trying to think i'm trying to see no i can't tell if she dated anyone else i enjoyed she married a pro rodeo cowboy yeah in 2008 that 2008. That's definitely her energy.

I applaud her. I applaud her for all of her great works. Sean Penn. Sean Penn. She dated Sean Penn. Now that checks out. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That absolutely checks out.

Anything else you want to say about American fiction? Or Jewel? Or Kevin Costner? Or Kevin Costner? Great movie. See it over the holidays this this seems like also very good like family all generations but i mean it is a family drama a lot of ways and and very moving check it out i'm sure we'll be talking more about it in 2024 i completely agree now let's go to my

conversation with core jefferson is here cord we haven't seen each other in a number of years yes last time we did you were still dwelling in the hell of digital media um and now you are a successful writer i mean dwelling in the hell of Hollywood. Yeah, I want to hear about that. So in that interim time, you've worked on a number of TV shows as a writer. Some of the best shows, frankly, of the last decade. Thanks.

Good Place, Watchmen, Succession, a number of others. When you were doing that work, was filmmaking always your goal? No, no. Because when you're writing for tv people uh you know the the sort of wisdom of tv writers is that tv is the writer's medium and that film is the director's medium and so that it's actually people sort of tell you these horror stories of like you know if you write a movie be careful because some director is going to come and take it and sort of like ruin your vision. And so I would be skeptical of that.

So I just basically devoted all of my free time when I wasn't working on other people's shows to write TV series, sort of like my own, develop my own stuff and try to get that made. And I just failed at it over and over and over again. I had several things in development over the years and, uh, sometimes it was killed early. Sometimes it was killed very late. Um, but it eventually was just killed. And so right before I found the novel that I adapted to direct this film, um, I had had a TV show that, that was the closest i'd ever come to getting a tv show on the air it was so close that people started telling me like the address we were going to open up the production offices in brooklyn when we started shooting like it was like that's how confident everybody was that we were going to make this and then at the last minute it got killed and

i was sort of really really devastated and so you, I was kind of feeling creatively adrift. It was a couple months later, it was December of 2020, which was a bad year for everybody. And so I was feeling creatively adrift, a very emotionally adrift, what's Erasure. And I'd never heard of Erasure before. And I went and read a synopsis, felt like this will be a book that I'll read over Christmas, just sort of like to busy myself. And I just fell in love with it immediately. And by the time I was like 50 pages into it, I was like, I think I want to write a screenplay for this. By the time I was 100 pages in, I was like, I think I might want to direct this. Um, and when I was done, I just sort of pursued it immediately. The thing about the thing that made me think I wanted to direct it. So

going back a little bit in 2016, I worked on master of none and Aziz, uh, on that show, we were talking about, you know, who's going to direct the episodes and he wasn't offering me an episode, but he said, have you ever thought about directing? And I said, you know, I don't, I've never been to film school. I don't know anything about lenses or lighting. And he said, you don't need to know that stuff. All you need to do is have a vision and be able to articulate that vision. Like you've been on sets before, you know, what goes on. Um, you can just hire a great DP and sort of like a great grips and great electric, like people who know these technical aspects of the job that you don't know. Um, and so he kind of planted the seed, but I didn't want to try to direct

until I found something that I really knew in my bones. And when I found this book, I felt like I know this story and these characters as well, if not better than anybody else in the world. Like I really felt I knew it on a foundational level. And so that's what gave me the courage to finally take the leap into directing was that it felt like, even if I go to set every day and I'm like, I don't know what lenses we're shooting on that day, or I don't know about the lighting that we're going to use in this room. Even if I don't know those things, I know the story that we're trying to tell. Like I know the story in these characters so closely that that will be my roadmap and help me make all the technical decisions that I need to make, um, sort of outside of just the,

the character study stuff. So, uh, that was, that was what really gave me the courage. But when I started TV, no, it was not, it was not at all, no, it was not at all sort of a dream of mine. In fact, it was something that I thought that I page 100 and you're like, I want to direct, you know, it's not easy, even though you've had success as a writer to say, one, I want to adapt a book to, I want to be the writer director and I have a strong vision. And I also want this to be like, even though it's an independent production, I want stars. I want Jeffrey Wright to be my lead. Like what actually happens in the time between, like, do you just sit down, write the screenplay,

send it to your representation and then the movie's being made? Like what happens? No. So, so the, in the, the first big hurdle was getting the author on board, Percival Everett.

Uh, and so when I was done, I reached out to my manager who reached out to his agent and said, can we set up a call for these guys? Or, personally even interested in entertaining this idea? And, um, that was a nervous moment for me because the thing that my, my manager came back and told me was, uh, he's willing to have a conversation, but he has said no in the past like Percival is a I love Percival he's become a good friend but you know not but and one of the things about Percival is that you know I've never met a guy who like cares less about like money or acclaim or attention um Percival told me one time

that he he has a dream one day of writing a book that everybody hates like he's like that is he's like that's a goal i've been trying to reach is just make something that everybody dislikes and so um you can see a little bit of that in monk as well yeah exactly exactly and so uh when i reached out to him i knew that i i was like very it was like approaching a deer in the forest that's how i looked at it as like, don't move too fast. Just be casual. Don't seem too eager. And we had just had a phone call for about half an hour where he asked me why I was passionate about the book. What, what my vision was, who I wanted to cast.

I already knew that I wanted to cast Jeffrey Wright. And so after about a half an hour, he said, okay, that sounds good. Let me get back to you. And later that day, I found out through his agent that he had said he was going to give me the rights for free for six months to write a script. And if I finished a script and sold it, then I could pay him once I got that money. And that is so rare. Sometimes these rights conversations can take months, if not years, and I will be forever indebted to him for, for his sort of willingness to do that. And so I went and wrote a script. I'm a very slow

writer. So it took me about four months to write a script. And once we were done, uh, I sent it to my manager and we sent it out to producers that's sort of like what the the in-between time it was you know this was the first thing that i ever just wrote because i was passionate about it i'd never written you know it had always been like somebody came to me with a novel do you want to try to adapt this book we got the rights for it and we're looking for a writer or we want uh you know we're looking for a story about a black family on you know in Martha's Vineyard like it was all kind of writing assignments this was the first thing that I'd ever found that I just felt passionately about

and wanted to put into the world so how many how many drafts do you have to write before the film is saleable? Or is it, you have your draft and then you're sending it out and then they're saying, okay, this is good, but, or like, what influence happens in that period?

So I'm a very, very, I sort of, the reason I'm a slow writer is because, uh, sort of the reason i'm a slow writer is because uh i do not move on with the scene until i feel like it's halfway decent so i have friends who really they do what you know one of them calls it vomit draft where he's just like throws everything on the page and writes things like you know joke here uh you know joke tk, like that kind of draft where it's just,

you spit it out. And I've never done that. I sort of, I make sure that like, instead of writing joke here, I write a joke and it may be one that I improve upon later, but I just want to make sure that things hold together in sort of like a very real way. And so by the time I was done with the draft, it was pretty much the draft that we ended up sending out to producers. There was, there was some, my manager gave me like a couple notes here and there and sort of said, I think you should maybe work on this a little bit. But for the most part, when we were done with the draft, that was a draft we sent to producers. And once we chose a production company which is t street ryan johnson's and ron bergman's uh company once we chose them then there we went through sort of you

know a couple more iterations but again the vast majority of the of the uh of the script that i wrote at the beginning became which the movie that you see Did you have your defenses up after your experience with the TV show? As it was going through that process, were you like, this could be taken away from me at any moment? No, because the thing that I said was, the thing that I made very clear was I was like, this is a package deal. If you don't want to entertain me as a director, then don't read the script. Because I was just so, because I had been burned so badly in tv so many times I just I was just like I was so ready for somebody to be like we love this script let's see what Barry Jenkins is doing you know what I mean like and I was like so so wary of that yeah so I just made it clear at the

outset like if you like the script then it has to come with me. Is there a lesson in that? Or is that just good fortune? Or like, what, like, what do you make of that? That you stuck to that frame, frame of mind? I will say that the lesson isn't necessarily, well, a lesson always is to advocate for yourself, right? Because nobody's going to advocate for you. Um, or nobody's going to advocate for you in the way that you want. You know, I've got, I've got agents and managers and they will advocate for me, but they don't, you know, at the end of the day, Mike shared, my old boss gave me a great piece of advice one time when he, when I first set out to sort of show run my TV show, he said, the thing that you need to remember is that nobody cares about it as much as you.

He's like, that's just the reality. Like you're going to hire a writer's room and they're going to care about it a little bit because they want to make something good, but they're not going to care about it as much as you. And so that I really took that lesson to heart is like, you know, my managers and agents advocate for me, but they don't care about it as much as I do. And so I really needed to make sure that I sort of like stepped up and said, this is, this is sort of like a line in the sand.

And so, um, the real lesson though, in this process for me was that this was the first thing that I ever wrote out of pure passion. As I said, it wasn't, it wasn't an assignment. It wasn't somebody coming to me and saying, try to crack this. We got this book. It was like, I found something that I loved and that I wanted to see in the world. And it was the first time I'd ever done that in film and television. And it's the only time I've ever gotten something made. You know, that is what I think is sort of a lesson there. It's like, it's the first thing that I ever was like, I love this and I'm not doing it

because somebody's telling me to do it. I'm just doing it because I love it. And I hope that somebody out there might love it too. And fortunately, I found some people who loved it too. And fortunately I found some people who were, who loved it, who loved it too. So the movie has two halves, almost like it's almost like a brain.

It's this very sincere and thoughtful family drama. And it's also this kind of biting satire. Making those two things fit together is really hard. I was trying to think of people who do this regularly. I've heard you talk about Robert Townsend a bit, but there's no family drama in hollywood shuffle right like so it's like there's a little bit but not a lot a little bit you're right you're right um but it's like it's jim brooks albert brooks spike occasionally yeah like it's a very short list of people who were able to pull that off yeah uh were you daunted by that? Did you think, did you have like a consciousness about that? No, because the thing that I've always felt is that, you know, I love, uh, you know, I

love all the, all the directors you, you just mentioned. Um, one that I would throw in there that I think is, you know, a huge influence on me is, is Nicole Holofcener. And I wouldn't say Nicole Holofcener necessarily does satire, but I think that what she does really well is sort of, you know, I think friends with money is my favorite of her films. And I think it's this,

it's this very interesting look at kind of class politics and class dynamics in this comedy of manners, but also these like intimate character studies of human beings as well. And so I think that for me, when I sat down to do this, it was, I don't know, like I have a, I think that sometimes ignorance is, is, is great in this industry. And that like, you know, in my TV career, my ignorance helped me in that when I, when I started writing for TV, I was like, oh, uh, you know, I thought everybody just wrote for

comedy and drama. I came in thinking that like, once you're a TV writer, you just write both. You just go to a show that interests you. It wasn't until I'd been working in it for a while that I realized like, oh, there are people who are just like, I'm a comedy writer. I do half hours. And there's other people who say, I'm a drama writer. And they don't sort of like go back and forth. And so people were like, wait a minute, you're going to go from Master of None to Watchmen? Like, what do you like?

Or The Good Place to Succession succession like what what is that and so it you were on like such funny dramas and such serious comedies though too yeah which is that there was a very five-year period where that seemed more legible totally achievable so maybe that contributed totally and i just think that to me when i when i set out to write this, it was like, you know, my personal life doesn't stop because my professional life is in chaos and vice versa. You know, it just, I wanted the movie to feel like life. That is what I intended to do. And to me, you know, it would be, it's not as if the tones shift drastically because even the family stuff is funny. You know, it's not like the family stuff is just all hyper dramatic and sad and self-serious and that you get sort of like bits of humor here, here and there when he's, when he's doing the satirical stuff. It's like, I think all, I think the tone remains the same throughout.

It's just kind of, you know, it's just kind of like all of a sudden you're, you're not in his professional life anymore. And it's like, yeah, but that's how life is you know your life isn't entirely your job just as your life isn't entirely you know most people your life isn't entirely your personal life but and i think that that's what i loved about the book that i wanted to achieve in the film was you know it is this juxtaposition of a guy who is frustrated that the world as he says like flattens our lives flattens black life it is reductive and and diminishing as to as to sort of like who we are as real human beings and the juxtaposition of that is with a black family that's not being flat sort of like you are seeing the dimensions and the complexity and the nuance of it and so to me it made perfect sense to sort of pair those and put them side by side because you're it's allowing you to see like here's the kind of stories you could be telling you know

it's saying like think of all here's like one of the many other stories that you could be telling about black people if you weren't so focused on slavery and civil rights uh stories and uh inner city poverty stories like if you if you didn't just keep making those over and over and over uh here's the other world that you could here's one of the other worlds that you could be dabbling in you know the book was written some years ago right it was published in 2001 so a lot has transpired since then, especially with regard to the satire in the story. And especially in the last five to seven years,

I wouldn't say that Hollywood has become self-aware. I wouldn't even say that it's necessarily progressed like immensely, but it's at least trying to pretend like it has progressed. And so I'm, you know, I imagine that you found yourself in the position that say Monk and

Santara have find themselves in the movie where it's sort of like, you're not tokenized, but you're not really empowered. Like there's this very, this kind of limbo state where it's like, you get to do some stuff, but you don't get to do everything that you want to do. Like how, how much did you think about evolving the way, the way that kind of Hollywood and creativity is portrayed in the book to present day i think that i i think that the so for instance in the book the uh the hollywood producer is um i would say much more like shark like he's like predatory like it's like it's like

this is i see this guy this is going to be great like you're a gangster this is this is cool like you're you're a black guy we're gonna we're gonna sort of like just it's very exploitative he's just very directly exploitative and so you know the book is darker in many ways that's not uh you know this is i don't actually i should hesitate i won't say anything but the book is darker in many ways uh compared to the film and that's one of the ways it was darker and so i knew that in order to kind of update the sort of what kind of producer hollywood producer would come after this book you know it is somebody whose heart is in the right place or at least they think their heart is in the right place or at least they think their heart is

in the right place which is like this guy's saying like i really do want to tell more black stories like i think that that is we are you guys your voices are underrepresented and i want to tell black stories um and it's it's far less in his mind exploitative it's not just like i see an opportunity here it's like no i really want to bring. It's not just like, I see an opportunity here. It's like, no, I really want to bring you in from the margins, man. And I think that that's sort of like, and,

and, you know, the, the publisher, like, you know, the, the something that kills me always is like, I had a vision for,

like, this is the, is, you know, the, the pan out to see the RBG poster on the wall of the, on the wall of like the publisher's office you know i think that i think that we are in a world now in which people have the vocabulary like they're talking

about microaggressions they're talking about um they're talking about an ally yeah he's trying to be an ally exactly and you and you know you have her saying like i've been reading a lot about the prison abolition movement like these are people who like are more thoughtful about this stuff and sort of are thinking in ways that that are more progressive than they were 30 years ago um but they still have blind spots you know they're still like like like you know i had a three months before i found this novel in 2020 i was working on a script and i got a i got a a note from a producer uh or note from an executive that said they wanted to make a care that they asked me to make a character blacker in the script. And, you know, I, they sent that note through an emissary, of course. And, and I told the emissary, I'd be willing to indulge that note.

If this person gets on the phone with me or sits in front of me and tells me what it means to be blacker. Like I will talk about that, but I want to hear what they think it means to be black and of course that that note went away because that person probably knew that they were going to commit a civil rights violation if they actually had that conversation and and you know and a couple years ago i have a really a really close friend a black woman who is a journalist and is slowly making her way into film and television. And she came out to Hollywood for some meetings and she went to this producer's office and they said, um, you know, what are you interested in writing? And she said, you know, I'm a child of the nineties. I would really love to write an erotic thriller. That's exciting to

me. And, uh, I'm interested in writing rom-coms and they said, okay, interesting. Give us a, give us some time and we'll get back to you with some ideas. And then she left their offices and they called her about three hours later and they said, we've got a great idea for you. Um, the working title right now is blind Tom. And it's a, it's a story about a blind slave who thanks to a wealthy white benefactor learns to play the piano and becomes this piano prodigy. And it's a true story and it's amazing. And it's like so powerful. And she was like, oh, okay. That, uh, it sounds like a strange erotic thriller. I hope we can get it there.

And so the sort of like this, the idea is like these people are like, oh, we love black characters. We love black stories. This is great. We just like, I love, like we want to center black characters. It's just like, well, but why isn't he blacker?

You know? Like, I love a black character, like, but, but he's not black enough. Like, what is it?

Why this isn't a black character. It's like, I would love to, for you, this black woman to write a movie, but like, eh, why would we get a rom-com from you?

Like you do, you, you do the slave stuff. Like, I just think that that is, that is the, what I needed to update was just, you know, was like, make it less just like,

we're like, I'm just after you as a money grab and more kind of like, I'm an ally and I'm trying to, I'm helping you and I'm helping center you. And this is, this is good. You know, what I'm doing is right in the world. I, the Adam Brody character is a little chilling for a person like me who like worked at rap magazines. It just like, I'm like a good guy. I have the right perspective on this. But, you know, I also know what I don't know, sort of. Yeah. That being said, I was wondering if when you were writing it, because you said you read it in 2020.

I imagine you were writing it into 2021. Did you feel like maybe the world was moving a little too fast for what you were trying to accomplish? Like, one of the reasons we don't get satire anymore is because the world is so absurd. And so I love satire and I love this movie. And I, but I was wondering if you had any anxiety about like maybe our culture, at least pretending to evolve while before you could get the movie into the world. Yeah, no, I think that of course that's all like, I come from a background from the journalism background. And I think that one of the things that I always sit down to think about before I start writing is like, comes from my journalist brain, which is like, why should this exist in the world

right now? You know, it's like every journalist has been asked like, well, what, why today? Like, why should this story go on the cover of the paper today, as opposed to the millions of other things we could publish? And so you really have to think about your nut graph basically, right? Like, what is the intention behind this? Why should this be alive? And so to me, you know, post George Floyd, we saw the black squares on Instagram and

everybody buying like the stamped from the beginning and all these sort of anti-racism books. Um, and so, yeah, when I was writing, I was like, oh, maybe, maybe something's going to happen in culture that like will make this movie seem like out of date or something, or will feel less timely by the time it exists in the world. Fortunately, we were able to make the movie really fast. And then, but also fortunately is like, you know, America never fails to disappoint, which is like, I remember reading an article. I remember reading an article at some point, like in 2021 about like how many, like about how many, or maybe it was toward the end of 2020. I can't remember, but about like how many bookstores, uh, like we're seeing like returns of like these like anti-racism books that all these people, that all these people had

bought. And like, there was like all these returns on these, like on Stanford from the beginning and stuff. And just kind of like, eh, you know what? I don't know if I served my time as an ally yeah we're all good here yeah there's not enough room on my shelf and then you start seeing like all these companies like purge their DEI employees and stuff so it's just like you know it is the great thing of you know when people when Watchmen came out people were like oh my god did you guys have like it seems so prescient like how did you guys know this and it's like in america you don't need a crystal ball when

you're making this stuff you just need history books and you just realize that this stuff is cyclical like this is i sort of i i was like maybe this is going to change but then i you know i started reading articles and i was like oh of course it's not going to change you know it's going to maybe move forward incrementally and you'll have some people who like actually change but there's going to be a lot of backsliding. There's going to be a lot of the same old bullshit. And I think that the thing that also made me confident that the movie would be relevant is the fact that the book was published in 2001. These are issues that Percival was thinking about decades ago. This is, this is a movie that shares some DNA with Hollywood shuffle.

That movie came out in 87, you know, like, like, so these are one of the actresses we auditioned for, for one of the parts was in her seventies. And, uh, before the audition, they said, um, do you, do you want to ask the director any questions? And she said, no, I just want to say something. And I said, what's that? And she said, I want to tell you that I can't believe they're letting you make this movie. And I said, why is that? And she said, because I've been working in this

industry for over half a century. She said for more than 50 years. And we've been talking about this stuff for more than 50 years and you're just putting it all in a movie and putting it out there. And I can't believe that they're giving you money to make this. And so that just, there was just signposts along the way that like, yeah, this is history repeats itself in this country. History repeats itself everywhere, you know? And so, um, despite sort of like the, the change that we all thought we were seeing in, in 2020 post George Floyd, it's like, yeah, of course we didn't get as far as we thought we were going to get, you know? Yeah. Even on streamers, you can almost feel the slow cancellation of all the shows. They rushed to green light in 2021. Exactly. They're like, ah, it's actually, the show isn't getting a second or third season has been very notable in the culture. Exactly.

One thing that is not necessarily related to race, though, maybe it is, um, that I really like about the movie. And I don't know if you've been asked about this, alcohol as a figure, as a character in the story. Yeah. There's a lot of drinking in a very relatable way in this story. Yeah, absolutely.

Obviously, some people are coping with loss, with trauma, with very complicated moments in their lives, but also what alcohol does to creative people and what they use it for. Like, Monk is often holding a drink in this movie. Other characters are holding glasses of wine. Like, I hadn't seen it used quite so effectively in a movie without, like, announcing itself

repeatedly. I was wondering if you could just talk about that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. You know, firstly, it just comes from having been a writer like, like, and, and, you know, when I was, you know, I don't know if people really understand, at least when, when we were coming up, you know, I hope I can include you in this is that like, you know, it's just like the bottle of whiskey and like, sort of like the bottom desk drawer was just a thing that just happened at journalism offices. You know what I mean? It was just, we would, you leave the office and just go get drunk with your, with your colleagues. Like it is a, it is a high pressure job. Um, you know, when I was working, I was working with a bunch of young people. And so it was like, well, we're all going out drinking after this, you know? And, and that was just really part of the culture. You know, the, my last journalism job was a out drinking after this, you know? And that was just really part of the culture, you know? My last journalism job was at Gawker. And, you know, the animating premise

of Gawker, Nick Denton used to say, was that the best stories are the ones people tell, the journalists talk to each other about at the bar after they're done for the day, you know? And that was just part of the culture is you go out and get drinks and talk with other journalists and like hang out all night. And so that's part of it. Secondly, I was raised in a house with a lot of alcohol. I was raised, I was raised in a house with a lot of drinking. My not actually, that's not true. My mother never drank.

She was basically a teetotaler, but my dad drank a lot. And, uh, he, he's a Vietnam veteran with a lot of PTSD. I think a lot of it was self-medication, but I just grew up in a house with a lot of alcohol. And I think that this is, to me, you know, there's a lot of me in this movie. And that to me was sort of one of the things that I put in there. And I think that also it is, you know, we're talking about an upper middle-class family.

And I think that alcohol very much is like the, especially wine is like a go-to for a lot of upper, upper middle class people in America. It's like, you know, it's like, well, I'm not, I don't do drugs. I don't, I don't, I don't do crack or anything or smoke, smoke marijuana or, or do cocaine. Those are illicit. Exactly.

Alcohol is not. Exactly. Like, like it's like, I, I'm a drinker and I think that, you know, that's why you see like upper middle, like, like you go to these places, you go to like, go to the Harvard clubs of the world and go to these kinds of sort of like Tony or places. And you'll see like these, these, these people are like getting fucked up. And so I just think that like this monks in academia, he's a writer. He grew up with a father who probably drank a lot

was in was my estimation and as you said he's going through a lot of tragedy and he's not figuring he's he's not handling any of it well and so i think that i usually always used to think that this is a guy who like just turns to the bottle because they probably saw their father turn to the bottle you know i think that is, and it is civilized. It's the civilized way of sort of like escaping your problems or running away from stuff. Was there anything in the directing that you were afraid to do or didn't think you could do?

Because I know you said the lenses and the lighting and the technical stuff, but what, like running the set and being in charge and having to execute on the vision, anything that worried you? The pedigree of the actors i was very terrified at how good the actors we were getting were i sort of jeffrey was i started thinking about jeffrey as i was reading the novel that's how early i started thinking of jeffrey for the part and that's dangerous because if you just get dead set on somebody and then they pass then

you sort of like are really crestfallen and so when we got jeffrey i was like oh my god so that was the first terrifying thing because i was like oh now all of a sudden i have to direct this tony winner and sort of like he's in bond he's in uh he's like on speed dial for wes anderson like he's in the biggest projects in the world also a guy who many like movie fans were like why doesn't isn't he the lead of a movie so if you're gonna make the movie where he's the lead you got to make the good movie exactly exactly exactly because a lot of people i've been longing for it forever and so that was already intimidating and then but i thought when we got jeffrey like our luck had run out i was like well we got i got my first choice i'm not gonna get anybody else that we really want and then it was like sterling k brown's in

isa ray's in tracy ellis ross is in eric alexander's in like and i was like Sterling K. Brown's in, Issa Rae's in, Tracy Ellis Ross is in, Eric Alexander's in. And I was like, oh my, John Ortiz is in, Adam Brody. Like, we just, Leslie Ugnams. Like, it really just started becoming this murderer's row of actors in a way that that was the most terrifying thing to me. Was that I was going to get there and they were going to immediately sort of like sniff out that I was out of my depth. And we're going to like just uh basically sort of um take over the set and just say like well I'm doing what I want to do and like I don't give a shit um but the thing that I quickly learned uh was that these people are tremendous like

the reason they're so good at their jobs the reason they are they've been so successful is because they come to the set and are just immediately so collaborative and open-hearted and open-minded and that just put me at ease right away that was the because that was the most terrifying the most terrifying thing was the first day i almost passed out on set i was so afraid i had to i had to like excuse myself to go to the bathroom and like do some breathing exercises because I really felt like I was going to black out and I was like that won't be that won't inspire the confidence yeah if you're first day on set you black out in front of everybody and so I went did some breathing exercise it came out and uh that was a rough we had a rough first day we had a really rough first day because I was very afraid of Jeffrey. I was intimidated by him. And I really thought like, who am I to tell Jeffrey Wright how to act, you know? And the thing

that I learned quickly though, was that Jeffrey wanted to collaborate. You know, he didn't, he didn't want me to sort of sit on the sidelines and let him do his thing. You know, he wanted me to come in and talk about the scene with him and sort of like tell him what I liked, what I didn't like. All of a sudden I was like, oh, he's craving this. He's craving me to direct him. Like he wants that. He doesn't want to just sort of like feel like he's adrift and out there and sort of, and just doing, going through the motions and nobody's paying attention. He wants to, he wants to know that I'm focusing on what he's doing. And so once that snapped into place by the end of day one, it was like, I got better and I got better and I got better. And so once that snapped into place by the end of day one, it was like, I got better

and I got better and I got better. And after the first week, I felt like I really hit my stride. And that, you know, that first day, it's funny that the

only one scene that we shot on that first day made it in the movie. I was going to ask if anything made it in. Everything else got cut. Yeah. We got one scene.

It's the very first scene of the movie, which I think is good and works. But everything else that we shot that day got cut out of the film. You hear this from first-time filmmakers that there's a day you have to junk entirely. Totally. And that was my first day.

That's interesting. This isn't a question, but I just feel like I've been waiting like 25 years for Eric Alexander to have a part like this too. Or like, why is she not a thing? Me too. And I think that that is, you know, she was on, she was at the top of my list when I started putting together names for cool. When we were kids, I was like,

this is gonna be a famous person. Totally, totally. And she deserves to be a famous person. And I think that, you know, people ask me, how did you get this murderer's row of actors for your first film?

And I tell them like, look at what happens when you write real roles for black actors, you know, like, so look at what, look at, look at how people will come out to support something and be in something when you write them a real role. When it's not just, you know, when you're not just there as sort of like window dressing or to come out to say some expository dialogue that sort of then like helps the white lead save the day and then you disappear, you're killed. Like, this is what you can get and so erica was one of those people where i was like oh my i could not

believe that we got her and just was wonderful like so wonderful is just one of the most warm gregarious smart she's just such a wonderful person and just really good at her job that, uh, you know, when she got nominated, we got nominated for a bunch of independent spirit awards and, and I feel very honored by all of them. I think the one that I was most excited about was, was Erica's just because it's like, man, like she is so good. And I just, I'm, I'm just so proud of her. I'm proud of everybody, and I'm so proud of her.

She just came in and knocked it out of the park, and I'm so happy she was willing to sign on. She keeps the movie on the ground. Really great performance. Totally, totally. I have a few through-the-looking-glass questions for you. Of course. I was listening to an interview with you on Fresh Air.

Congrats on that. That's wild. for you. Of course. I was listening to an interview with you on Fresh Air. Congrats on that. That's wild. Thank you. And you were very comfortable identifying yourself as an artist. And it felt almost as if you had said to yourself, it's okay for me to say this out loud, despite whatever accusations of pretension that may bring. Because obviously you are an artist. Yeah. But you're also working in a very commercial space, movies and television. Absolutely. This is not fine art. This is commercial space. Movies and television. Absolutely. This is not fine art. This is not painting. So how much do you think about your work and what you want to say versus what will be appealing to people to go see?

Like when you are writing something or directing, are you like, will audiences love this? Has that entered the equation creatively? Yes. Because I, well, particularly with this film and I'll say that, I'll say that like it entered the equation for this film, but not because I was like, I want to make something that makes the most money. Right. And so this film is not the kind of film that you make that you're saying like, this is

going to make the most money. You know, I knew that this film was going to be off putting for some people. I knew that it's not going to be everybody's cup of tea. You know, it deals with some serious issues and some subjects and that people feel uncomfortable with and that people are going to disagree with me about. And that's, that's fine. Um, but the thing that I wanted to do was to make it as big tent as possible to invite people in, to have these conversations and to think about these things. To me, it wasn't like, we're going to make a bunch of money with this. To me, it was like, I think that we can make a movie that's about race and identity and sexuality

and these kinds of third rail issues that will be appealing to people outside of New York and LA. That to me was really what I set out to do. I sort of, I think that we've really, you know, one of the things that, one of the problems that I think we're, I don't think that I'm saying anything new here, but the world is more polarized than it's ever been in my lifetime. And I don't think just the United States, I mean, the world is more polarized than it's ever been in our lifetime. And the thing that I'm realizing is that we have all just retreated to our separate corners.

It's like, it's like Fox news is no longer conservative enough for the conservatives. They have OAN and Newsmax now. It's like everybody just exists in their own little fiefdoms and like. Tribes. Yeah, exactly. They consume their own news and they consume their own movies and they sort of like consume their own books and they never sort of like

there's no there's not really a lot of overlap anymore there is no like idea of like a monoculture right like this idea of like MASH where a hundred million people in America tuned in to watch the same TV show

like that doesn't happen anymore right there's like because the conservatives are like well I don't I don't watch that liberal trash and then like liberals are like well i don't you know i'm not going to go see the i forget what that conservative movie was that came out earlier sound of freedom yeah

saddam freedom so like it's like well we're not going to see that and it's just everybody has their own media and i felt like we are not going to get past our division if that's sort of like if we just lean into that if we lean into that idea and lean into that instinct of just like well i'm going to make something for the people who agree with me you know and i wanted to make something that felt like listen this is like kind of a scary subject i know you're this makes you nervous uh but i promise you there's going to be something in here that you can laugh at and enjoy yourself and sort of like will resonate with you and that,

and that you can leave thinking about things. You know, I think that, uh, I was just watching, um, I was, was listening to this radio interview with,

uh, Norman Lear. Um, they, they played it after his death and, and he said this thing that, that I think is true, which is, he said, you know, satire, I don't think can change people's minds. I don't think that satire can change the world.

And I agree with that. I'm sort of too old to believe that a movie can change the world, but I do think that it can cause, he said, he said, but it can cause people to think it can sort of like give people an opportunity to think about their perspective in the way that they think about the world and so i wanted to do something that felt like that like there's this cultural middle ground i think there's something really nice it's like you know these kinds of things are like the last things that bring people together you know i, I think that like, you know, I think that there's,

there's something, um, you know, there's something impressive about Barbie that Barbie can appeal to like millions of disparate types of people around the world. You know, that, that,

that's something that's like impressive about that. It's like, you know, this is bringing in all different kinds of people. And I think that the politicians aren't doing it, man. We are at a point where the politicians certainly aren't trying to mend the divisions. They're trying to exploit the divisions. And it's like, we're kind of just, who's going to do it if not artists?

I think it's kind of up to artists to say, well, let's try to make something that is inviting. That sort of brings you in and allows you to think differently. And that to me has been the most delightful thing about the movie was that, is that, you know, it seems like, it seems like we achieved the goal that we set out to do because we've now shown the movie, you know, movie premiered in Canada at the Toronto film festival. We've shown it at Morehouse college.

We've shown it to predominantly white audiences. We've shown it at the hamptons film festival we've shown it the mill valley film festival we've shown it in england and france uh and you know every kind of person has come out of a screening and said uh said that they've that something has resonated with them they've sort of like every, like old, young, black, white, like every kind of person has come out and said that they found something that, that they enjoyed. You know, I had a screening in England and this woman came up to me afterward, this black woman. And she said, you know, I came here alone tonight. And that woman, and she pointed across the room and there was a white woman. She said, and that woman came alone tonight.

And I turned to her on the way out of the theater and I said, do you want to, do you want to talk about what we just saw? Like I came here alone. And she said, the woman was like, yeah, let's do it. And so she said, they just went and sat in a corner and had a conversation for an half hour. And she said, I'd never do that. Like I never, I've never done that at one of these screenings. I think it was like a BAFTA screening. And that was very sort of, uh, moving to me and sort of it was powerful and i think that that that is what i think that i wanted the movie to do and so i did set out thinking what is going to be appealing to the broadest possible audience but not because of money because I feel like it's important to have these conversations that are inviting to everybody. Like, like, look, I think that slavery movies

are more important than ever, especially in a country that is actively, you know, you have so many pockets of the country that are actively working to eradicate sort of like the slavery education as we know it. Right. And sort of like a slavery education as we know it right and sort of like are banning children's books about this stuff like i think that those movies are important but the thing that i ask myself is is anybody leaving a slavery movie that's come out in 2023 going like you know what i changed my mind about that you know what i mean like you know what i'm like it's like it's like you know what i thought that we should ban the slavery books but now that i've seen this movie it's like you know what? I thought that we should ban the slavery books, but now that I've seen this movie, it's like,

you know what? I don't think we should ban the slavery books anymore. Like this, this changed my perspective. Like, I don't think that that's happening, you know? And so I'm not saying that those movies,

I think we should keep making those films because they deserve to, we deserve to remember that history. Yeah. Can't be just, they just can't be the only ones. Exactly. But it's like, but it's like,

I don't know that it's like actually having an influence on the national dialogue. Does that make sense? It does. I think that people are like, I'm going to see that movie and I'm like, yeah,

it's bad. It was bad. I was right. Like I came in knowing that it was bad and it's just as bad as I thought, you know?

I think that's what, part of what people are responding to with the film is the sense that maybe we haven't quite seen this kind of story told before. Or if it's been told, it's been told in like a rom-com. It's like, sure, The Best Man Holiday features a similar kind of like upper middle class black family story.

Yeah. But very rarely something that is like as probing as this movie is. And so there's something to it that hopefully it inspires someone else. I have a trivia question for you. Yes, sir. I'm going to throw some names at you. Okay. Orson Welles, Sidney Lumet, Lawrence Olivier, Robert Redford, Mike Nichols, Jordan Peele,

Bradley Cooper. What do they have in common? Ooh, no idea. No idea. They're each one of 37 people whose directorial debut is nominated for best picture. Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. You're on the campaign trail. Yes, sir. You're also promoting is nominated for best picture. Oh, wow. Okay. Wow.

Uh, you're on the campaign trail. Yes, sir. You're also promoting the release of the movie. Yes, sir. Um,

how does it feel to be like thrust into all this? Wild, you know, really wild. It feels overwhelming. If I'm being honest, it feels, uh,

it is, um, it is beyond my wildest dream it is i remember when we submitted the film to tiff one of the producers that i was working with um said like look temporary expectations because this is a very competitive year and it is it's like for whatever reason this is the year that every single famous director in the world decided it's like Scorsese and David Fincher and Bradley Cooper and Greta Gerwig and Martin Scorsese.

Like it was just like, it is an insane murderers row, Alexander Payne. Like it's people who are just like, Oh yeah, these are the names that are going to be, that are going to be the big, bold names for this year's films.

And so they said like, it's no guarantee that you're going to get into TIFF. And so I thought, okay, um, we'll see. And so we submitted it. And, uh, when I found out we got in, I was like, literally jumping up for joy, jumping up and down for joy in my house because I was, I was thinking that there's a chance that we wouldn't even get in. And so I didn't even allow myself to think of winning the audience award. You know, like I did, it was like that. Well, that's not going to happen. You know, it's got Miyazaki and Alexander Payne and all these other people are having

movies here. So that won't happen for me. And then we won. And then we started winning audience awards, other places. And then now we're in conversations for Oscars and stuff. And it's, you know, we made this movie for, I know for a fact we made this movie for much less than almost every other movie that's sort of like in this conversation. And so you realize in this industry that, you know, money really does have an influence on sort of like how successful movies become. So I was like, we don't have a lot of money.

So I don't know if there's going to be success. And the thing that, the thing that I think has been really nice about the film is seeing that it's been word of mouth, you know, it's largely people who are like leaving the theater and saying, whoa, this is really good. I'm going to tell my friends about to go see this and what, you know, obviously we have a great, we have a great campaign and we have got great marketing like they're they're all doing a wonderful job but a lot of it is just the nice thing about winning the audience award was at tiff was that like you know it wasn't like an impaneled jury it wasn't sort of like you know secret ballots from

like five other filmmakers or something it was like just people who came to the movies, who just wanted to see movies. That was, that was, uh, really nice about the, about the entire thing. And so, you know, I didn't even allow myself, I didn't even allow myself to think of, to think of this happening because I thought there's no way it's, it, we were making this movie on a limited budget. We shot in 26 days. Uh, and look, I, i uh i love all the actors in my movie i think they're all tremendous actors they're all wonderful people but it's not like it's like we've got leonardo dicaprio and you know robert downey jr and sort of like these like massive massive like household names i think that that this is in many ways, I think like the little movie that could,

it was that that's what it's become to me is just like, okay, I wasn't expecting this, but, but you know, at the same time, I'm also over the moon. I have to admit,

like, I'm very, I'm very proud of the film. I really like it. I'm very proud of everybody who's really like it i'm very proud of everybody who's in it all the all the wonderful actors and and the crew and everybody who worked on it on our marketing team like i love it and i'm so happy that all these people are getting the acclaim that they deserve um and there is you know it is it honor, you know, it's an honor to be dude, to be on the, that AFI 10 best films list with like people who are literally heroes of mine since I was a child, like literally like people I've looked up to for basically my entire life.

That is, you know, you can't help but feel like a little twinge of a thrill there and sort of like a feeling of just pure excitement. That is, that is, uh, so yes, mostly overwhelmed, but also just incredibly excited and honored. Conversely, you at least you used to live online. I don't know if you're still feel like you're a person that's online these days, but are you prepared for the backlash and or criticism that always comes when movies enter this cycle? Yeah. I mean, I,

uh, I've signed out of Twitter, so I can't look at Twitter. Um, because I just knew that I didn't trust myself to not like find the worst things that people are saying about me and sort of like stew on them. So I don't look at Twitter anymore twitter anymore um that's not entirely true sometimes i'll like sometimes break your rule well well the only person who knows the password now is my assistant

and sometimes i'm like you have to you have to log me in i say like log me in but don't tell me the password so she'll like log me in for a second to like let me tweet something about the movie and then and then i'll do a quick search but then i'm just like i realize like this is bad don't do this this is this is madness so this is a new thing though like people who are coming up like yourself who grew up with the internet are now gonna have to learn how to control themselves because of the exposure to this i've seen well i've seen like i have worked with people like damon lindelof famously quit twitter after lost the lost finale right and like i've talked to him about that and he was just like he said i said the lost finale like broke me i couldn't do it it was just it was

too poisonous and i got like and he's like and damon and i share similar anxieties we're very similar in that way um and so like i just knew going into this, I was like, I have to log out. Cause I'll do that. I'll just sort of like, look at the shittiest thing that somebody said about me or the film and then just get incredibly angry. I have a, I have a friend who won't, who won't, who will go unnamed. I think you probably, he's probably one of your friends too. But he told me that, um, he told me that me that he released a book and he said that he said that um i was like you know should

i log off twitter he's like he was like yeah he's like i released my book and it got like pretty poisonous he's like it got pretty toxic i was he said i was like googling like who these people were like finding he was like i was like finding friends that we had in common and then reaching out to those friends and saying like is this person happy do you think this person is unhappy like i want to know about their personal life like are they miserable like why would they can't do that i was like yeah man there's no way so i was like i cannot do this and so i don't i will allow myself every once in a while to look at the Rotten Tomatoes score but I will not read reviews I will not um I will not you know I

will see headline people will send me reviews and say like you have to read this and I'll look at the headline and and feel very pleased but I but I just can't bring myself to read them because I think that there's a, uh, a sort of artistic hero of mine is John Waters. And I was, I was reading interviews with him recently. And cause he'd had the, he had the, he has that retrospective up at the Academy Academy. Yeah. And in one of the interviews that I read with him, as he said, he said the, he said, if you give credence to the good ones, you have to give credence to the bad ones too. Like if you, if so, if you lean into the good ones, you're like my god this is great then it's like when the bad

one comes you gotta believe that one too and so he said the best thing is just to just ignore them all and just sort of like make what you want to make and what you think is good and i think that that has been that has been helpful for me it's just like i just shut it all out. And I, um, when people send me nice reviews, I'll, I'll look at the headline and maybe sort of like tweet that or something. But, but for the most part, I can't, I can't allow myself to lean too far into that because I have such thin skin. That's always been, I mean, but that's always been the case. Even when I was working at on the internet and like, everybody would say, don't read the comments. Like this is comments like this is essentially don't read the comments but on a sort of like just a bit larger scale it's like just don't read the comments like just you you wrote what you wanted to write and

you don't need to sort of like get into the get into that uh uh sort of like swirling you know swirling sort of like a pool of opinion i think that it's better to just stay focused on on what I can control and I can't control that anymore it's great advice cord we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen have you seen anything can you watch stuff now with your I haven't watched it's like it's like I haven't really I sort of I haven't watched anything new yet. There's like so many movies. Like I want to see the holdovers. I haven't seen the holdovers.

Like there's all this new stuff that I want to watch that I haven't seen. But I would say that a movie that I saw very recently that I loved that I had never seen before. And I came to mind because you mentioned Mike Nichols' Carnal Knowledge. I'd never seen carnal knowledge. And I watched that a couple of weeks ago and it like blew my socks off, man. Like I loved that movie so much. It's so good.

Art Garfunkel. Like it was, it's like, you're, you're like art Garfunkel. Come on. Uh, but he's great in it.

Jack Nicholson as usual is always great. Uh, and it's just, it's a really, really good triptych of like, of, of, you know, just different stages of development and people in men's sexual lives. And I think that it is, it's so, um, well drawn and sort of like, I think really accurate as to, as to sort of like young men and their sexual pursuits and sort of like what their sexuality means to them and sort of like what women mean to them.

Uh, I just, I loved it. And it's really funny too. It's like, it's really hilarious and great. So carnal knowledge. I would highly recommend that.

Tremendous recommendation. Cord, uh, it's just been like really cool watching this happen for you and inspiring and exciting. So I wish you well in the next few months and congrats on the movie. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate it. Thanks to Cord. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Next week, CR returns. We're talking about Ferrari, our favorite Michael Mann movies. Let's go. producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. Next week, CR returns. We're talking about Ferrari, our favorite Michael Mann movies.

Let's go. See you then.