The Big Picture - The Top 5 Scariest Summer Movies and ‘Talk to Me’

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Sean discusses ‘Talk to Me,’ the horror movie of the summer, and his five scariest summer movies (1:00), before being joined by the directors of the film, Danny and Michael Philippou (10:00). Then, he is joined by ‘Afire’ director Christian Petzold to discuss his new film, his career, and the shared interests of arthouse and commercial cinema (41:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey Guests: Danny and Michael Philippou, Christian Petzold Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For decades, the Vietnam War has been a Hollywood obsession. Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, First Blood. These were blockbuster films, embraced by audiences and critics alike. And for decades, they've helped us understand a painful war, and understand each other. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Raftery. And this is Do We Get to Win This Time? How Hollywood

Made the Vietnam War. Listen on the Big Picture feed. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the scariest movie of the year so far. On this episode, we have a double shot of interviews, one with Danny and Michael Filippo, the Australian directors behind the thrilling supernatural horror movie, Talk to Me, which is in theaters right now. The brothers have built up a reputation over the past decade on YouTube, where their homemade, bombastic, IP mining mini-movies garnered attention for their incredible craft zany sense of humor and the skills with low low budget so now they're making a mainstream movie that premiered

at sundance talk to them about their path to sundance and hollywood and our interview and how they made talk to me which i'll talk more about in a second really exciting movie and then later in this episode i also talked to the German writer-director Christian Petzold, who's made some of the best movies of the century, including 2013's Phoenix. It's a personal favorite. Christian's new movie, A Fire, is a quiet, riveting portrait of a grouchy, slouchy novelist and a few friends he's made at a summer home in the countryside, real summer-themed episode here. Petzold is such a funny and engaging guy. It's a great interview subject.

Even if you haven't seen A Fire, I think you'll enjoy our conversation, talking about movies, the history of movies, how he understands movies, the way that he writes his own. He's a great interview subject. Even if you haven't seen A Fire, I think you'll enjoy our conversation talking about movies, the history of movies, how he understands movies, the way that he writes his own. He's really a wonderful interview. But first, I wanted to talk about Talk To Me and summer horror movies. We think of horror movies and we think of Halloween. We think of October. Maybe we think of Christmas, but we don't think about summer that much, even though summer is probably the second most frequent time of year that we find horror movies. Talk to Me is no different. I mentioned it's directed by the Philippo brothers. It stars Sophie Wilde, Alexandra Jensen, Joe Bird, and Otis Donji. And it follows a group of friends who discover how to conjure spirits while using an embalmed

hand. It's this white ceramic hand that has all sort of scribbling on it, graffiti on it, writing on it, that looks like something you'd find in a pawn shop. But these kids become addicted to the new thrill of channeling spirits by shaking the hand of this embalmed hand. Of course, one of these spirit sessions goes too far. They open up a portal of some kind. Things go effing crazy. It's a pretty standard setup, but this movie rips. There's incredible staging. The horror sequences are chair rattling. It's really exciting. It's pretty funny. It does feature some of the storytelling hallmarks that you'll see in a lot of contemporary horror movies. There's the idea of coping with trauma, these uneasy friendships among young people, will they or won't they amongst a group

of people. But there's this intriguing aspect of social media satire and a kind of parable about addiction as a coping device in the face of tragedy that I think is really smart, really well rendered. Sophie Wilde in particular is exceptional in this movie. I think you're going to be seeing a lot more of her. Really, really talented actor. And the movie is just scary. It's just, it has that thing where when you're sitting in your seat in the theater and you know something dreadful is going to happen.

And it's very slowly unfurling. And when I'm in that situation, my happiest situation in a movie theater seat, honestly, and I can feel myself wanting to turn my head, wanting to not look at what's there, but knowing that I'm not going to turn my head, that I have to see

what's going to happen next. The Philippos, they really ratchet up the tension in those sequences. So this is a really fun movie. I saw it for a second time after catching it at a Sundance at a theater this week,

and it was a 4 p.m. screening on the Thursday of release, and it was packed. So there's good word of mouth. I hope this movie does well it does feature a a common occurrence in horror movies that you'll find the the monkey's paw horror mcguffin you know where there's an object a cursed object of some kind and everybody in the movie keeps getting stuck with the object you know think of the videotape from the Ring is a great example of this. I guess Chucky from Child's Play.

That's one I really enjoy. The Necronomicon from The Evil Dead. As I was thinking about this, I thought of the 1958 Plymouth Fury from Christine, the John Carpenter adaptation of Stephen King's story. And then I think the creepiest one of these is probably the Lament configuration from Hellraiser, which is that sort of puzzle box that opens the portal to another world. Hellraiser and Talk to Me would be a really interesting

double feature, I think. But scary summer movies, I don't know. There's like a few tropes that I think of when I think of these movies. This one, Talk to Me, is definitely the sort of, feels like a school's out summer camp kind of trope. The kids are killing time during the day. They don't seem to have much else going on in their lives aside from gathering together at 9 p.m. when their parents leave to shake hands with an embalmed hand and open the spirit world. We've also got obviously the cabin in the woods trope. We've got the road trip trope. Sometimes there's some intersection of all those ideas, but it's usually involves teenagers, usually involves horny teenagers, usually involves teenagers who are kind of ripe for the picking. There's a bunch of movies like this. It's very

easy to make a list. You know, when I was growing up, I know what you did last summer was a big sensation in the aftermath of Scream and the Kevin Williamson explosion. But you know, this extends back to movies like Friday the 13th, the classic summer camp movie, Evil Dead is a kind of like young people going on a road trip to a cabin in the woods. Cabin Fever, obviously. The Burning is a 1980s movie that occurred to me as I was thinking about these. Even movies like Sam Peckinpah's Straw Dogs, not pure horror, but very similar, sort of a country house, invaders in the country house. And then we've got these sort of more tongue-in-cheek or modernized ideas of this idea. The Cabin in the

Woods, the sort of satire of these movies is one of my favorites from the 2010s. Even Jordan Peele's Us is, I think, fits the mold here. Amanda and I just talked about The Blackening on this show recently. It's another kind of horror satire comedy that came out earlier this year that similarly uses Juneteenth as the setting for a Cabin in the Woods movie. I'll give you my favorite of the summer horror movies very, very quickly. I just kind of rattled these off in the top of my head. But number five, I think is Midsommar, Ari Aster's incredible journey to Sweden and the pagan rituals of a small community in Sweden. Probably the single brightest horror movie ever made. A movie that takes place almost entirely in the sunshine, which is highly unusual in these kinds of stories and

is an interesting contrast to Ari's first movie, Hereditary, which transpires almost entirely in the dark. Number four is a movie that I think I've proselytized for in the past on the show. It's called Sleepaway Camp. I don't want to say too much about Sleepaway Camp if you haven't seen it before. Sleepaway Camp is very well known for a shocking ending. This movie is now 40 years old. I think you can watch it for free on Freeview right now on Amazon. Highly recommend you check out Sleepaway Camp. Number three is The Hills Have Eyes, which is one of Wes Craven's first movies and is a family road trip movie that turns terribly awry and i'll just say maybe has some interesting um oppenheimer vibes the hills have eyes bob would you agree with that i do agree with that it's like it's such it comes as such a

fascinating time of like american reckoning on what we have done to the earth and ourselves um so maybe if you want to if you have a couple hours after you have the three-hour oppenheimer experience maybe you want to fire up the hills have eyes and see the coda yeah you might think oh no is that what happened to benny safty's character i hope not um pretty pretty incredible that's what happened to all the people living in new mexico that's right um number two is it follows which is is another kind of parable movie, a stand-in. David Robert Mitchell's incredible story of sexually transmitted disease and terror and kind of an exploration of our conservative ideas around sex and teenagers and what happens to them in horror movies and in our society now

that is also just downright scary and has three or four moments that are truly chilling. And then number one, obviously, is Texas Chainsaw Massacre. One of the most important movies ever made. One of my favorite movies ever made. Probably the ultimate teenagers on a road trip

stopping off at the very last wrong location you could possibly imagine. Most horror is riffing on Texas Chainsaw in some ways. We've seen probably more than a dozen remakes, sequels, prequels, legacy stories around Texas Chainsaw, but there's nothing like the original. It is truly upsetting, truly visionary, truly fun. And it's a summer movie. So if you're looking for some additional viewing in the aftermath of checking out Talk To Me, I highly recommend any of those movies.

Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Danny and Michael Filippo to talk about Talk To Me. Very excited to be here with Danny and Michael Filippo, directors of their debut feature, Talk To Me. Although you guys have made so many damn videos over the last 10 years. When did the YouTube channel start? 2014, I think, or like right at the end of 2013. So you became renowned for that channel. You've got millions and millions of views on those videos.

When you started making those videos, was the intention always to be feature filmmakers? Yes. So the, the, we made stuff way before YouTube. Like we started when we were eight, nine years old with friends and we made our own TV shows and movies, you know, that got seen by nobody. We didn't upload them or anything. We were just making them for, you know, our friend's sister, Nellie and ourselves, you know, uh, the YouTube stuff we kind of just fell into because we wanted to be filmmakers and do features. Uh, that was the feature films and TV shows. That was our dream always has been, uh, the YouTube stuff we just fell into by accident. So, and we got swept up

in the world cause it's so, um, you know, you, you, you get, uh, uh, reactions and response quickly. You see growth quickly, you know, up film something, you upload it, you get comments, subscribers, views, and there's like a growth there. And we kind of got stuck in that world because it was so much fun. Yeah, yeah. It was like we had this series that we were doing when we were like 13. We started it called Tamuffy, and we did 10 seasons of the show. We had six movies on it, and like we're going to do the sixth

and final film of this like series. But everyone that we grew up doing it with were outgrowing it. They were like, you know, getting girlfriends and like starting jobs and stuff. They're like,

why are we still doing this? And I was like, God, so fun, the final movie. But like no one was into it. So it was like, I had to start being creative somewhere else. So like we started just doing

some like little videos online and then automatically they were going viral. So it became our jobs. When they were going viral, were you making a lot of money on them? Did it feel like that was your new career? No, because we refused to monetize them for the beginning. Like, so, because we, we weren't doing it for money.

So we were like, people were putting, there was this big thing about ads and we're like, we don't want to put ads on it because we're not making this to make money. We're making this because we like, love making, you know, videos and filmmaking in general. That's why we're doing this. So we had this hard stance against it, which we thought our audience would like, but we did a behind the scenes video and they're like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. It still makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah. So we waited until we got to a million subscribers and then we started monetizing, which allowed us to,

you know, do bigger and better stuff. Yeah. But, but like once we'd monetized everything, like every dollar we ever made went back into the videos. So it was like, we were constantly just like, it was always for the content.

We were always broke. You guys have this amazing ability to make something seem very, um, low tech and grounded and also pretty impressive from a visual effects perspective. All the videos over time are unique. They're often riffing on things that we know and even IP that we know, but you are able to give it a kind of homemade feel too. I assume that that was part of the conception of a lot of that most popular stuff that you were doing. Can you maybe tell me a little bit about that and then maybe how that teaches you about how to become filmmakers?

Well, it was always just like what we had around us, like the resources that we had. And so I was always shooting everything on my little GH2 or GH3. And so like whenever big things would happen, we would still just do it on our small, like handy cam. So like people would be very surprised when something big happens when it's shot so low fire. So I think that was like part of the magic of it. Like it felt, well, it was really, it was super backyard, but backyard but we were able to you know have like crews do bigger things for us yeah like so when we got say we got funding for something we'd never put that towards the camera and like let's get a better like a camera and have you know we always kept it that kind of

same look you know and it's got like a distinct style about it. You know, we kept using that. So when people see it for the first time and like these big explosion or big stunts, you know, you don't expect it because of what it looks like, you know. So yeah, I think it was like a thing we used to catch some people off guard with. Forgive the simpleness of this, but how did you learn how to do stunt work VFX? I mean, it seems like pretty sophisticated stuff you're doing in these handmade enterprises it's just been doing it since we were little kids you know and we just learned with everything we made and um we could never rely

on anyone else to do things so we'd end up just doing it you know editing ourselves or doing the sound ourselves and the music ourselves like like putting, like layering that in. Um, and the, yeah, same with visual effects and color. It's just like out of necessity, uh,

doing everything yourself. So, um, but like that gave us the ability to like really sharpen our skills for on every aspect. So like we were really like, we just learned so much about VFX, learned so much about editing and sound design.

Like we just were like building ourselves up. And all of that training helped us when we did our feature film. We were already trained up in those areas. How did you know it was the right time to make a feature? When it was talked to me, the first thing you tried your hand at, were there many other projects? How did this come about?

Yeah, there was another film that we were almost going to do called Concrete Kings, which was based loosely on how we grew up. But we were so in the rack-er racker online thing that we never really gave it the love and the attention that it needed so that that project sort of fell over and then YouTube was like demonetizing our videos because we have a lot of violent content in our videos. So like a lot of our videos were getting removed and like we were losing, like,

yeah, we just weren't able to monetize them. So that's when I just started writing again, which was, I was doing way before the YouTube stuff like I was so obsessed of it and I sort of stopped doing it I was sharpening my skills in the physical production side but once I'd gone back to it it was like it was heaven and like I found I could be really really personal and I could really really express myself whereas on the YouTube stuff I was sort of scared to do that I was scared of my audience in a weird way because they came to expect a certain thing. And we're sort of like playing like heightened characters of ourselves. Like we're like really rough in this sort of thing.

So like really difficult to allow myself to be vulnerable on that platform. Well, it's also that the movies that we liked watching were very different to the stuff we made. Like we made stuff that was fun to make. Crazy fight scenes and blood effects and things like that whereas our favorite movies are like you know Korean drama and and things like that like yeah a good a good foreign drama film like yeah like something with like that's that is a strong characters and story and plot like that's the stuff that we liked and we appreciated it's not the stuff that we liked and we appreciated. It's not the stuff like you would imagine based off watching our YouTube videos, you know.

So that's really interesting to me because obviously you're responding to feedback that you're getting both in terms of the amount of people that are watching your work and also literally like comments. I'm sure you're looking at how everyone is responding, but then that's influencing what you feel you should make, as you said, and also what you're going to make as you make feature films. So you've got this kind of like series of influences on you that are from the external world that like filmmakers 20, 30, 40 years ago would not have had to consider.

Like you're not getting feedback on what is effectively like your student films. But because of that, like, does that, do you think that talk to me is radically different than if you had tried to make a movie like this 10 years ago because of what you know about what people want well that was like we didn't go into talk to me like trying to do what people want that was like literally on like a personal expressive level like uh just being therapeutic on the page uh and and it was just like knowing that it would exist outside of raca raca allowed me to have that freedom whereas like the raca raca stuff like said, like it was always tailored towards a very specific audience. It was a very specific thing. Whereas like this was able to exist outside of it,

which was so exciting and exhilarating because we hadn't done it for ages. Like the last thing that we'd shot outside of Raka Raka was a short film called Deluge, which was about a father and son in a suicide cult. And that was a short film. And then Racka Racka took off. I had this short film. I'm like, oh, let's upload it to Racka Racka. And then I found that I was scared to do that. Like I was scared to show that part of our creativity because it felt not right for that platform that we'd created or that audience that we had.

So you're a coward. Yes. Yes, I was a coward. I'm always interested in the division of labor between partners who are directors, and especially when they're related to each other. So like, what do you do, Danny? What do you do, Michael?

How do you guys split up your responsibilities? Well, for the videos, it's kind of like down the line with, you know, how would you say we split up? Well, yeah, yeah. So like, usually I would write the thing or like, I'd be shooting it. I'd be writing it. Michael's in front of the camera doing stunts and all the practical stuff. And then I would do like a rough cut.

He'd do a fine cut. I'd focus on color grade and VFX and he would focus on sound effects and music. It's how we did the rack-a-rack-a labor. And then for the film, it was sort of the same sort of thing, like heading those departments or talking to those departments. Like I was not doing the composing stuff as hands-on Michael was and he was not in the like the VFX like going through those with me like yeah we well and then also on set like Danny was the main voice we didn't

want to have like uh you know me give someone a direction and Danny giving a different one so I'd communicate with Danny you know if I had a different idea of where it could go we talk about it first and he would speak to the actors about it. And then, like, I know that the main action would be, it allowed me also to look, you know, everything else that's going on outside of the main action as well. So it allowed us to kind of, yeah, like that peripheral, like what are the other characters doing here? Because there's some scenes with a lot of people in it,

you know, a lot of actors and, yeah, a lot of performance, a lot happening. It's like, yeah, having Danny being the main one and then I could focus on things outside as well. So it kind of, I feel bad. I feel like someone who's like partner directors that do have like a combined vision, it's such a bit of a cheat code. Like I couldn't imagine him being like Ari Astar or like say Jordan Peele

when you're heading it all yourself. Man, that would be tough. It already is tough and it's two of us. Doing it one is such an admiration for people that do it solo. It's crazy. Where did the idea for Talk To Me come from? Yeah, it was inspired by so many things, but one of the big kickoff points was these neighbors that we helped babysit and watched them grow up.

There were three boys, and then one of them was experimenting with drugs for the first time, and his friends were filming it, and he was having a really negative reaction to the drug. He was on the floor, and he was convulsing, and everyone that he was with weren't helping him. They were just filming him and laughing at it. I remember seeing that clip, that really scaring me and like really freaked me out. It was like a really interesting footage. So that was like a, um,

a big inspiration point. There was a guy that we, uh, that were friends with him, daily Pearson, who had written like a short film about like a party drug horror thing. And so like I had that short film, I did a pass and I just couldn't stop writing.

And I just kept writing, kept writing, kept writing. Uh, yeah. So that was one of the main kickoff points. And then it was always just like, based on all the things that would scare me the most, everything that was fearful to me, like I'd incorporate into that script. Was horror always going to be the genre that you guys were going to jump into or could it have been anything? Could have been anything. Like, like we're working on so much different stuff right now. Like we're really, we really love it. Like we're still open down to do an action film

and all this sort of stuff. Like we're open to those things, but this story just felt natural to horror. It felt like a fusion of a lot of the skills that you guys had crafted on the, on the Raka Raka channel, where there's something in the filmmaking style that is unlike anything I've ever seen in a horror movie. It is like so physical and hard and fast moving at times that you can't help but be affected by it. I assume that just came from figuring out how to design some of like the action set pieces of your videos. But maybe you could talk too about how you made it

just feel different from something we'd seen before. Yeah, I think it's like a style that we've, you know, yeah, like created, I guess, over so many years of doing it and and so many years of like because YouTube's so quick right you have to get people's attention straight away and keep them watching you know they'll click out any second you have three seconds to get someone's attention um and that's even getting shorter now like uh it was really fast like oh look like you know keep things moving and action it's like we know that it's a feature film and it has to of course it's it's slower than that it's like a longer we have we have characters and and arcs that we want to

you know that we're trying to capture but we still wanted to have like a pace that that kept moving it didn't feel like it was lingering you know so there is of course scenes that are slow and things like that are slower but we always wanted to keep the energy moving. And that was something like through the edits, like we did through the editing process. The original cut was hour 53 or hour 55 or something, and then we got it down to whatever it is in the end, like 90 minutes or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. And then also we do a lot of editing while we're shooting as well. So we're shooting and putting the pieces together on our heads while we're shooting it. So I think that helped with the energy and the feel of it too. Like Michael was so hands-on with certain parts of the edit. There's like a montage sequence in the film that Michael just obsessed over and like had the music in his head and was playing it, knew the song, knew that we were going to hit certain beats at certain parts.

So it's like the sequence is designed to certain music as well. Like I think maybe. Yeah, and just going in with like a strong plan of the camera movement and its motivation we had a great cinematographer Aaron McCliskey who's so talented you know and anything you uh you just give him okay it's a close-up he'll make it look amazing working with him and like creating like uh shots and and ways to cover things was like so exciting. Like every day is shot listing and looking at different films and trying to find out the visual style was so much fun.

It was a lot of fun like doing that. And there's so many lessons that we learnt from every aspect in this that we look forward to carrying over to another movie if we get. Yeah, and finding people that we're comfortable with and being able to joke and stuff on set because we're like a bit high energy and we need someone that we're comfortable with going oh not your best work is it mate like if like a certain shot of stuff like we need people that we're comfortable with that able to do that sort of thing like work like that what was it like trying to raise money for this was it easy was it hard i know screen australia is involved and that's something that

is amazing in your country, that you have that. Yeah, they're incredible. But in general, is independent film challenged right now in Australia? Was it easy to get this off the ground before getting out to Sundance? Yeah, well, we initially shopped the film in Los Angeles to all the companies here, and pretty much everyone said no. And then... What did they say when they said no?

They said, stop messaging me. Who are you? Yeah, they just, I don't know. They just passed. Like there was just a lot of passes. There wasn't a lot of feedback. It was just a lot of passes, a lot of passes. And then there was one studio that was really going to pick it up. And then, but once they're like, they started having these creative notes and it was like,

oh man, they're taking it into a really stereotypical direction. And it felt like they were turning it into every horror film ever. So like, it was a really hard thing. Whereas like we turned down a way bigger budget bigger budget just to have some creative freedom. So that was a challenge. I know that casting Sophie Wilde, our lead actor, was a challenge. We lost a million out of the budget casting her because she wasn't a name and stuff. But we were so confident.

We were casting her for so long. We were trying to find people that were authentic to the roles, and she was just perfect. So that was another challenge that we had. Another challenge was COVID as well. Or even having like a shooting in Australia with Australian accents was a thing. Cause you know, we get told Australian movies don't make money. So why are you going to shoot it?

You know, Australian, but it just felt like our channel was never, we're Australian. And we had like kind of Australian humor a bit in the channel as well. And that was international. Our biggest countries, our biggest demographic isn't Australia. It's like outside of Australia. Of course we had the massive pop culture, pop culture, you know, culture things, you know, like massive IPs and stuff that we were playing with. But even outside of that, like it was Australian. But also like we didn't make it, to us it didn't matter what the accent was. It's like it doesn't matter if it's Australian.

Like we want to make something that's worldwide and it's not going to be tied down by the accent. So it was like something I guess we were trying to like, I guess prove to ourselves that we could do it as well. It was, thank God we had an awesome producer, Samantha Jennings uh causeway films who believed 100 in the vision was with us every step of the way you know reinvested her fees just like we did into the project like uh and put a reputation on the line as well to do this with us

uh it really helped like bring out the best like yeah it's just the crew and cast in general like was the dream team, I felt. Yeah, yeah. Everyone was so supportive. And I think there was like, once the funding had got announced, I remember there was some comments that were like, you're giving it to these YouTube people? Like not really, like, yeah.

Thinking that it was stupid that they gave film financing to a YouTuber because we make YouTube videos. But yeah, she believed in us like 100% of the way and like supported our vision, which was awesome. I was going to ask you if there was a stigma that was following you guys that maybe was stopping you from getting what you needed to make something like this. Yeah, but like Screen Australia, they've supported us every step of the way. They've been so incredible.

They've even helped fund some Raka Raka stuff. Are you trying to continue to make films in Australia? What's your thinking now that this film has been acquired by A24? Incredible reviews out of Sundance. I do want to hear a little bit about that experience, but will you continue to try to make movies with Australian accents and Australian stories? I'd love to keep bringing all of our projects, even if they aren't Australian accents. Like I'd love to shoot everything in Australia.

I think that we've got this amazing rebate there, like a tax incentive. We also have the USD to AUD conversion. And then also it's our hometown and like the people that we love are there so it's like to be able to like work with the crew that we do everything with is like yeah i want to do that with all our projects or it's the crew like so we started off with crew as well like crewing on films um just in you know like grip or production runner uh production assistant i do all these jobs for free on films like oh let me just get experience and it was people i met through there like from every single part of crew even unit runner, production assistant, I do all these jobs for free on films like, oh, let me just get experience.

And it was people I met through there, like from every single part of crew, even unit, you know, and gaffers and all people that I met on set that like, oh, these are cool people that want to be here and want to make something cool. I remember them and bring them for the film as well. So 80%, 85% of the crew is like people that we had like worked with before um from way back when so uh there was like a comfortability uh with that and like i just felt like if you have a bad crew you're gonna have a bad experience because it's already tough making a movie having it with uh you know people that don't necessarily want to be there or just there for a paycheck and

not not there yeah passionately and want to help and kind of stand in the way. I get in the way unknowingly or not. It makes it just extra tough. So I would love to continue shooting in Australia. Tell me about Sundance. I'm quite curious. Because you guys did something that very few people do, which is you effectively chronicled your premiering the film by shooting it and then posting it to your YouTube channel. So I have some sense of what it was like, but it must've been pretty mind blowing. It was like the whole entire Sundance experience was the most

overwhelming thing ever. Like we spent the whole time just crying because it was so, we can't believe the things that were happening and the people that were reaching out and the response that we were getting. It was literally like the dream come true. Like it was serious. Like even now thinking back on it, it's so surreal. And even the fact that A24 picked it up is so surreal. The fact we're in this room right now talking about it, it's so surreal. It's like we uploaded a video that sort of captured like our experience a little bit.

So you do see it, but the whole thing was just, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's just, I guess it's kind of an imposter syndrome it's like you would never think we would never think our movie would get into like a festival like sundance or berlin which was the other one that we got into and we never would have imagined it going like being recognized on that level i just wouldn't have imagined it you know and we didn't make a film trying to to get that or reach that we don't know. We'll just make it kind of like we just wanted to make a movie, a cool movie that we thought was cool.

And if it was bad, it's like, well, there's nothing to blame. We can't blame it on anything. We got it exactly how we wanted it. So for it to have that response when they said, oh, you got in, it's like it felt like, oh, my God, we're going to go to the snow, to the Egyptian theater, like, you know, and there's going to be critics and there's going to be reviews. It's going to be on Rotten Tomatoes, you know, like that.

And then people were reaching out to us, like agents and managers and we're getting all these emails, like what is going on here? It was like this big, and I had this hype about it. Like when we went there, it was like a kind of like a frenzy about the film and no one had even seen it like man I hope it lives up to this expectation everyone's like building it up I like I was like it would be better for not to have hype so you go we're not expecting too much but um people liked it and the reviews were amazing and and yeah the response was

amazing which is overwhelming and then sitting in the room with a 24 and they're saying, you know, we want to be the ones that, and we're just like, oh, my God. Like that's, I would never dare to dream of being approached by A24. You just wouldn't think it's possible, but it happened. Yeah, and then another thing as well, like on the Sundance thing, is we're making our short films as kids for our, yeah, our friend's older sister, Nellie, who as a kid told us

about Sundance. It's like, that's where all the big filmmakers go. Like Sundance is like this premium film festival. So as a kid, she taught us what it was. And when we were 19, she moved away from Australia and she moved over to Salt Lake City. We hadn't seen her in 10 years. And then the first time that we got to see her again was at the premiere at Sundance. And it was like, yeah, it was like yeah it was yeah the whole thing

was so surreal so you guys are at this incredible moment now where you've had a Sundance hit it's broken out it's been acquired by a cool studio everyone says they have an amazing filmmaking style you've already been through the studio experience sort of where they saw what you wanted to do and the strictures of Hollywood seemed too encroaching upon what you wanted to accomplish but they're probably going to try to get you to do more stuff now so how do you take on a franchise or IP or even just a big budget project assuming that's something you want to do and try to retain control and do the things the way that you want to do them like that's a critical moment for filmmakers so i'm curious how you guys are thinking about that like we definitely want to keep doing our original projects like like we really like first and foremost so we've got so much stuff

that we're working on outside of any franchise stuff but there is one that we're interested in we're like in talks of right now and i think that it'll just be taking it one step at a time and not diving right into the deep end it's like maybe work in the development process and feel it out and see if we are going to be as creatively free as people say we will be able to be. Yeah. Cause the whole reason we didn't do it with the Hollywood studio for talk to me was that same fear, you know, like we're so connected to the material or anything that we, uh, agreed to doing, we're going to pursue a hundred percent passionately.

And that means, you know, know uh having like the idea of having something taken away from you creatively is terrifying and i wouldn't respond well to that you know so like yeah either of us wouldn't you know so it's like of course you want to be um working alongside with people but you don't want everything changed and your vision changed and things like that so it's kind of going step by step and saying up front, like we want to be, we don't want it to be taken away from us. There has to be agreements put in place for that. Or we'll just keep making stuff regardless.

You know, we can do it with these bigger things, but there's got to be some trust in us to deliver our version of it, you know? Yeah, and that's why A24 feel like such a cool studio because everything that I've heard from all the filmmakers they work with that they are really director first. Like they really let you do your vision and they're not going to sit there and like change things around.

Whereas like, yeah, yeah. I don't know how I would respond to that either. It's like everyone changing it too much. Well, that's the thing is like we were speaking to Ari Aster, which how crazy we have to call him a friend. Like we're such big fans of his, but he was talking to me. He's like, they don't get, they don't, they do not encroach on the creative process at all.

Like he's able to make whatever he wants, you know, and they're supportive of that. And it shows like, you can see like the respect that they hold and carry with them. Everyone loves them. Like everyone thanks them at the, at the, at the Academy Awards. They won all the awards and they're getting thanked by people. Like who thanks the distributor, the company?

It's like, wow. They have got this different way of working that for me, like when you talk about the fears and stuff, it's like if you put A24 in front of that, that doesn't even feel like a fear to me. It's like you just know that they, and speaking to the people there, everyone's so awesome and passionate that there's no fear there of that I just know that we can trust them to to help us deliver our vision. What becomes of the YouTube channel now? I think that like even for this film project we had someone come and film all the behind the scenes

So we've got every single day of production shot. We're gonna edit it down into five videos, which is the five weeks of production So I think we still will be uploading every now and then to YouTube, but it won't be our, you know, it won't be, we won't be on it full time like we used to be. Yeah. It's tough because we have such a, you know, we have this like weird, this following, like really strong fan base of like core fan base that constantly look, even if our videos get suppressed or things that will actively search for them. So we have these, this amazing fan base. We, we love love our fans so much like the comments on the last video were just so

overwhelmingly you know positive um and we do disappear for like long times like you know sometimes like a year and then come back and uh it sucks because you do want to uh put content out for them and you know show that we appreciate the fans and that. But also this other stuff just takes time. And also our style isn't what YouTube is looking for. So we will still upload, um, but we want to be focusing on film and television. Um, but there's always, there's like four videos that we've filmed right now that we're still editing. That's like just finding the time, delegating time.

That's the big thing now is splitting up the time, right. You know, for all these things that we want to do, because we have crazy ADHD and we're, we're, we're working on 13 different films at the same time writing. And it's like, what one, where, where do you focus your time? You know, that's, that's the tough thing. There's not enough hours in the day. There's not a lot of examples of what you guys are accomplishing. Like not many people have been able to elevate out of that space. There are a couple of people who got their start making YouTube videos, but I think that there is some suspicion about the approach

or the tone necessarily that you might take if that's where you come from. So I think it will, at a minimum, be very inspiring for a lot of people seeing the film. I mean, it hasn't been released yet, so you don't know, but it seems like it's going to do quite well. I can't speak for all YouTubers, but there's some YouTubers that never wanted to get into film or never had that as their big ambition. And then they're given this opportunity where people just try to capitalize on what they've built online and they try to transfer it weirdly into a film thing.

Whereas like someone that's not passionate about film gets an opportunity to make a film where they're not completely leading it. And it's this weird morph of like a studio giving them money. And it's not an actual creative output, if that makes sense. It's just them trying to turn their YouTube stuff into a film. I think that's when it starts to look a bit, like there's so much negative examples of that, that it scared the studios off of any YouTube-led film, is my theory about what happened.

Yeah, but we were talking to, oh man, why is his name escaping me? Mad Max. George Mad Max George Miller George Miller why did I forget that so George Miller you're a countryman I know what's going on

so we met him once and he did like we were chatting to him and he was saying if I was your age I would be doing YouTube too I went my route

because there was no other way to get your stuff out you have to make a short film and get into festivals and things like that. Those Mad Max movies remind me of what your YouTube videos are like,

where it's just like, this is just some guys in the desert doing the best with what they have, you know, and the creativity shines through. It's really cool. Yeah, exactly. And he was saying like, if it was now, like that's what I'd be doing YouTube, because that's the way to get your stuff seen.

He's like, it was, so it being looked down upon, I can see why, but I don't understand. And another line, I just don't understand and another line i just don't understand that either because that's the way that to make a star and be seen make some cool stuff on youtube of course there's so many people uploading to youtube now and like kids now they want to be youtubers that's the thing but if you're making stuff that's unique and different i feel like you can really stand out with the youtube crowd well you guys are great film fans we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers,

what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you got, now it could be anything. It could be a movie. It could be a TV show. It could be something you saw on YouTube. But what is the last great thing you've seen? I'd have to check my letterbox. Feel free.

Yeah, let me check. We encourage that here on the show. Okay, wait, let me check my. Let me see what I want. Maybe I'll check my letterbox. Letterbox on the show. Okay, wait, let me check my... Let me see what I... Maybe I'll check my Letterboxd. Letterboxd is the best. Come on, it's so useful. Okay, well, it's an action film called Project A with Jackie Chan. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, talk about it. What did you like about it? Well, it still overwhelms me seeing how those action sequences are put together and how physical and how committed those performers are to those stunts. There's nothing like that in the studio system. Those films are so rogue. It's so incredible. And the way they move, the choreography, how dangerous the stunts are.

It's so raw. Yeah, I was in love with just the way that those films are put put together and those sequences put together that's a great one yeah there's a scene i have downloaded and i keep watching from uh beasts of no nation where they they walk into battle singing and they have this amazing music and it's sad because they're using like child soldiers and things like that but the the leader's so charismatic and uh you really get swept up in that moment. I just love that sequence because it's working on so many different layers, you know, performance and then also the music, the sound design,

and then what the characters are doing is amazing film, really, really good movie, and I just love that. I really love that scene because they march into battle singing. There's something about it that I was like that I really, it amps me up. It just pumps me up. I just love watching it. There's a few scenes like that in movies that are like,

oh, they're so well made that it just sticks with you. Even if it's a movie that's not that great, there's always these moments. I feel like every movie has something that's like, oh, wow. There's something wow about everything, even the worst movies. There's always a moment. So, yeah, that's the latest one that I watched recently. Yeah, and it's not even moments, but there could be a specific element

to a bad film that is good, like the costume design or the lighting for a certain scene or the way that they covered something. Always go into a film looking at it as a whole as opposed to just being like, so it's like not looking at it as a whole and like looking at all the different pieces of it is always exciting because there's always something

that's exciting or inspiring. Those are great recommendations. Danny, Michael, thanks for doing the show. Congrats on Talk To Me. Thank you. Thank you. get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express shop online for super prices and super savings try it today and get up to 75 in pc optimum points visit superstore.ca to get started Thanks to Danny and Michael. Great chat. Let's dive right into my conversation now with Christian Petzold.

Christian, thank you so much for being here. Very excited to speak with you. I wanted to start with this. Where do you start with a new film? Is it a character, an idea, a setting, maybe an actor? What comes first? First, COVID was the first thing that happened. It was in March 2020. I infected myself in Paris together with a main actress, Paula Baer. And I had written a script about a dystopia novel. And during Lying in Bed, I'm not interested in dystopia novel and during lying in bed i'm not interested in dystopia anymore i think i have to do something about life and not about the end of living and this time i have seen and watched many of eric romer movies because it was a gift by the production company in par. It's a production company of Eric Romare and all his summer movies.

And it was like a vaccine for me to lay down in bed and watch all these old movies, which are very great and very present. And I can watch all the things what happened between people in the summertime and all these years. And I have a desire for to make a summer movie by my own something against all these dystopia movies i can see in all these streaming streaming things like netflix amazon and so on i'm not interested in dystopia movies anymore because i think they're a little bit fascist they want a tabula rasa to the world. They want to clean up the world. They want to fight the weak and the complexity. And on the other side, the Eric Rommel movies, they like complexity.

They like weakness. It's a research in human conditions, and this I prefer. Tell me about the summer movie. I've heard you mention that before. I'm so interested in that concept. What defines a summer movie for you? It was, there was a summer movie in 1930 in,

in made in Berlin by Billy Wilder and Fred Zinnemann and Edgar Ulmer and Robert Sealdmeck, all directors later worked in Hollywood and it was 1930. It was a silent movie. It's's the the title of the movie was People on Sunday it's about a Sunday of people from the working class young people at a lake dancing kissing seducing and it was a movie you haven't seen before it was free the bodies are free it was something totally against studio movies and and it was a big success in germany in 1930 and three years later the the fascists the nazis destroy everything on movies like this and all these directors had to leave germany

and when they came back in the 50s, like Billy Wilder, Robert Seward, they can't find this kind of movies again. This kind of movies are gone, they are destroyed. And also I thought in my theory in the COVID bed, that also the summer was destroyed in Germany. We have summer movies in France, like these movies by Eric Romer. We have summer movies in Sweden, in Mark Bergman, My Summer with Monica. We have summer movies in the USA, or the horror movies, for example, which from young people in cars, with shortcuts through the forest and cabin in the woods and people with sexual problems and chainsaws, but these are summer movies. And we haven't got summer movies in Germany. I think it's something to do with the damage of this kind of movies from Nazi power, which began 1933. Your last few films have had these sort of archetypal genre elements

you know you've had fantasy, you've had thriller you've had sort of spy seeming stories this movie is much more grounded in terms of its characters and its shape I thought you could talk about why you made that decision too. It's also a little bit a genre movie. I thought when I saw it on the editing table and I think

it's something to do. It's not that I like genre movies that i can make a quotations or a retro thing out of it i like that when i make a movie i have a neighborhood i don't want to make an original movie i want to have a have a neighborhood i want to have of fathers and mothers and sisters and the street for me a movie is part of a city and the summer movie i made now with the fire i think there is also a neighborhood like i told you the the swedish phones and use a summer movies for example and this was something that gives me it's to make a movie it's a lonely job And to have a neighborhood, the loneliness is not so irritating anymore.

You're such a cinephile and scholar of movies. Do you watch films before you embark on something like a fire? Yeah, I watch movies. And also, three months before shooting, I make a three-day weekend seminar with all the actors all of these not just the main characters and actors all of them also the supporters and in this rehearsals we have one day of a cold reading and a long monologue by me they have to to hear it because they are paid for it to hear me and um it's also something against loneliness. And then on the second day, I have a program of movies

to see them together with the actors. It's not that the movies are at the same subject, but it's something to do. It's this metaphor of a city. We are not making a lonely movie. We are surrounded by other movies. And we had seen the first movie I think we have seen was What's Up Dog by Peter Bogdanovich. I think it's something to do with Barbra Streisand and Ryan O'Neill, that Ryan O'Neill is also a man without a body a man who's who can't see the world he's a scientist he's he doesn't see anything he has no sensibility for to the world and there's barbara streisand

who opens his body and opens his mind and i think it's something to do with the story of a fire who is also about a guy perhaps you can call him a douchebag or asshole but he needs someone who will open him and so I think these movies have something to do with each other and I think it's something with this comedy style which in the fire it's in the first hour I think it's something to do that the actors had seen the Bogdanovich movie. The other movie we had seen was Some Came Running and Shining, I think,

because of a writer and he's also in his mind. And I think that this tennis ball sequence where Leon, played by Thomas Schubert, is throwing the tennis ball against the house. I think there's also a scene with Jack Nicholson in Shining. I'm really sure.

There definitely is. That's very funny. I did think of that as I watched Thomas Schubert throw the ball. That character, I want to ask you about, Leon, because he strikes me as an unusual protagonist for certainly one of your films in the last 10 or 15 years. A sort of pathetic figure, somebody who doesn't seem to be participating in the world in any meaningful way kind of inside of himself and very judgmental where did he come from yeah you know i think mostly most of my movies we uh there are female protagonists in the middle and they're a little bit like in an exile they're very lonely they're they're in the german democratic republic or in post-war germany and i was i want

to see a male subject again yes after many many years after watching female subjects and i want to see male subject and i think this means i want to see myself a little bit because i'm also an artist i'm also i was also an asshole i was also someone who you can call a douchebag too when i was a young cinema cine cineast nerd and make my one two my third movies my first three movies and um i think i want to make a, I remember the first sentence I had written down in my treatment was a portrait of an artist as a young asshole. I remember. And when I read three, four days ago, a critic in the New York Times, there was this term, a portrait of an artist as a young douchebag. And so I noticed she understands, the writer of this article, of this critic, understands everything what I'm thinking about.

And so this comedy thing is also something which relieved me in a way. I feel like many film critics are in a sad way identifying with Leon as well. I don't know if you've noticed that, that it's not just filmmakers and artists, but he has kind of the shape of a film critic as well. I don't know if that occurred to you. It's like this. I think I have eight Q&As in the USA and have many Q&As in Germany too. And very often that after the screening, after the Q&A, when I'm on the street to smoke a cigarette or so, these guys, these critics, like I was a critic too when I was 25, they came to me and said, it's a portrayal of me,

but they're not angry about it. They're also relieved. So I hope that all these nerds who are sitting there never want to go into the water, never go out of their clothes, always thinking they're really ugly and they're thinking about beautiful women,

but they never can reach them, that they will have a relief with the help of this movie. Everyone wants to be seen. That's the takeaway in some form or fashion. You know, I was revisiting Barbara last night and it occurred to me that characters are always withholding or obscuring information about themselves in your films. That's sort of a critical tactic that you use to tell stories. And in this case, Paula's character, again, we learned something about her a little later into the film that Leon doesn't totally understand. How conscious are you of kind of returning to some of these strategies when you're telling your stories? People who are telling stories. I hate movies where people are telling

informations yeah like why are you so pale i was in jail for 24 years i remember you killed your wife with a with an axe now but i'm innocent i remember there was a scandal and so on these are information things but i like people who can tell stories. Perhaps it has something to do with the Western movies. The Western movies are mostly very silent. People are not talking much. They are riding.

They are looking for water. But at night, when they are around a campfire, they are starting to tell stories. This is something that has to do with cinema around a campfire they're starting to telling stories and this is something has to do with cinema yeah the campfire and the screening it's something to do with so i like people like in barbara for example when he's when he's telling the story why he is in a form of exile in this hospital at the outskirts the story is is, he has to, it's not an information,

it's something he's given, he's given something to the other, like a gift, he's opened himself. And in a fire, there are also stories. There's this really bad joke I like very much, but it's a bad joke about a dwarf arabian dwarf who sprayed people gay but it's also a gift to the to the group to open themselves and this i like in movies i also love the idea of uh club sandwich the sort of the lousy follow-up to the debut it's just such a beautiful little concept for the le character. Is that something that comes from your experience as a filmmaker?

Yeah, but I didn't know that. So these actors, Paula and Thomas and Langston and Enno and Matthias, they are really, really intelligent. And when I have written down three pages of this novel for the script to Club Sandwich, I was a little bit proud after when I have written it. I printed it out and sat in the Berlin Cafe and read the three pages I worked on and said to myself, it has to be a bad novel, but I'm proud and it's not so bad. And when we have our rehearsals, all the actors start laughing about these three pages. And I was hurt.

I must say I was hurt. And I said, it's not so bad. Why are you laughing? And so then they know that something's triggering me. And then an interrogation starts. They interrogate me with questions like, do you have, do you have problems with your second movie when you are as a director? And I said, yeah, I have problems. And so, and I told them about my problems about that. I have a six, I was at a succeed with the first movie and received money for second one.

And I want to show the world that I'm a big cineast and I know so much and I make a movie. And in this movie, there are many, many quotations from other movies. And it was a film noir with with the detectives and mafia and guns and and half naked women and so on. And so they've asked me, what was the problem? I said, I have always the feeling that I'm playing a director. I'm not directing a movie. I'm playing a director who's directing a movie.

And this is something very bad. And actors know everything about to pretend something. And this is not very good for acting. And then they asked me, what was the title of the second movie? And I said to them, it was not Club Sandwich. It was Cuba Libre. And then they start laughing really loud. Really loud.

Because then Enno Treps, the guy who's telling the story with an Arab dwarf, he writes down the word Cuba Libre and he writes down the term club sandwich. And both are really similar. And this opens my eyes that the whole movie i think it's about me that is simply fascinating this is your third film with paula and you know you know you're famous for this collaboration with nina haas over the years and now it feels like you have one with paula i'm interested in that too how do you develop a relationship with a performer and say like we're going to now work together on several consecutive projects yes i met paula for for transit because i was working

on the german dialogues in france francois osama's france and i liked the ozone very very very well and he's a great director and a good good guy and so i met paula bear who have the same casting agent fr François Ouzon and me. And for me, it was something very new. You can say like this, I have always the feeling that she's independent. You know, there's some people, some critics say, oh, this actress, she loves the camera. She's playing with the camera. I have always the feeling that Paula doesn't loves the camera. She's playing with the camera.

I have always the feeling that Paula doesn't need the camera. She's by herself. And this is a view and this is a position. For me, it's very fantastic. For example, in a fire, I have always the feeling that I never have to show her

in silk underwear, in a fantastic light, to seduce the audience like my protagonist Leon is seduced by her. But she's so independent that you are interested and curious of her. And this is something she's bringing by herself into our work and this I like very much Interesting. Do you intend to conclude the Elements Trilogy? Is that your next project? You know

it was a little lie with the trilogies I must say you know I'm a Protestant I can only work and when I have no work I have problems and when something is very good and I must say this work, Undine and the second work, A Fire, these two productions, they're really happy, happy productions. And a protest is mistrust everything which is happy. A work which doesn't suffer, let you suffer, something is not right with this world.

And so I always said there must be a third movie, a trilogy, where I can really suffer and then the world is finished. And this is a big problem of my mental condition. And so I try to, because I'm relieved by this last movie, A Fire, I don't have to do a third one. What has it been like for you to have such increasing success as an older filmmaker now? You've been making movies for many, many years, but it did feel like with Phoenix and Transit, at least stateside in America, your profile really grew significantly as an international filmmaker. I assume you're aware of that.

You're here in the States right now presenting films. What has it been like to have that a little bit later on in your career? For example, half an hour before our interview, the production company here in New York said I need a headset. and i said i have no headset i'm a little bit they ask me if i have a smartphone and i have a smartphone but i'm a really old old school guy i have turntables at home i have my boarding is always printed yeah so i'm i'm a little bit um uh on the at the out on the

outskirts i don't know if this is the right word but but i like it there yeah and so i'm i'm i'm not such a modern guy my my kids are very very modern and they make jokes about me and sometimes they call me idiot but But they help me. Perhaps this, I need help. I wanted to ask you about the state of film in Germany right now because in the United States, myself included,

we're always kind of whinging about the box office and things are complicated and people are streaming at home. You've been mentioned of that at the beginning of our conversation. Is the film industry, is filmmaking healthy in in germany in your perspective and we haven't got a film industry because it doesn't exist it needs the subvention by money by state and we have a big television uh public, this television gives money to movies.

There's not such a capitalistic structure. It doesn't work. We have no market. We need, like in France, we need the money by state, the money by the society. This is sometimes very good because it's not so stressful, but sometimes very bad. You can do what you want and it doesn't need that some audience would see the movie. And you have also to love the audience and you have to work with the audience. And this you can learn in American movies because they are watching the audience.

But sometimes it's not good to think too much about the audience. And I've seen, for example, a movie in the plane with my favorite actors, Julia Roberts and George Clooney. It's a comedy about a parent and her daughter. She falls in love with a guy who makes seaweed in Bali or something like that.

Ticket to Paradise, the film is called. Yeah, this is such a bad movie, I must say. I agree with you. Yeah, but it has, I think it has a success because in the plane,

everybody's watching it. Yep. And so I was, so sometimes it's not good to have a ticket to paradise. And sometimes it's also not good to have a German movie directly financed

by by state do you feel like creatively things are are strong in in germany and in european filmmaking right now it's like a little bit like this i have some friends where we are a small group we are talking with each other this is this is fantastic to have this and we but but um we we are so separated i i remember when my my mother told me about the 60s when she was going to the movies that in that you can see in one movie in one week in ingmar bergman movie and the next week she can see something with John Paul Bermondo and then she has something from the USA, a fantastic Bonnie and Clyde, for example. So it was not separated, everything was together. And we have this problem in Germany that we have a mainstream cinema and an art house

cinema and they are not combined anymore and but cinema like in the 30s 40s until the 70s they were together and I think cinema deserves this cinema it's a common. It's like a marketplace in a city. It's like a park in the city where people meet. And if separation starts and a mixture of society is closed, then we have problems. It's very well put. We have the same issue in the United States. The art house and the mainstream

are very much separate and distinct right now. And it's not great for movies. It's been wonderful talking to you, Christian. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. It sounds like Ticket to Paradise was maybe not so great. Was there anything else you've seen that was good? I've seen a movie from Ireland. It was also, I think, for the Oscars, A Quiet Girl.

It was a fantastic movie, I must say. I was totally surprised. I didn't know anything about the story, the director, the actors, and it's a really fantastic movie. And I hope it will be seen in mainstream cinemas and in outdoor cinemas too.

It's a great recommendation. Christian, thank you so much. Congrats on a fire, which is terrific. Thank you very much. Thanks to Danny and Michael Filippo and to Christian Petzold. And thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode.

Later this week, it's finally time. Garbage fish. We'll see you then.