The Big Picture - The Top Five Movies of 2020

Episode Date: December 8, 2020

This has been a strange year for movies, most of which were seen at home. But we didn't struggle to find some that lit up our imagination and reflected the times. Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan and Adam Nayman to pick their top five films of 2020. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Adam Nayman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the greatest movies of the past 365 days. It's been a terribly strange and often difficult 2020, but there has been much to recommend from the world of movies. So joining us to capture the story of the year, our Big Picture All-Stars Chris Ryan and Adam Naiman. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. picture. Chris, Adam, welcome to both of you. Thank you for being here and sharing your thoughts and feelings. Sean, has it been a difficult year for you? Because I just feel like I'm living in Lake Havasu. I've seen Tenet 12 times in the theaters.

I'm immune to everything. What's going on with you? You have been out in the streets with the CR Army sharing COVID together, which is unfortunate for you. Me, Adam, and Amanda have been staying safe and watching a lot of films. And we're going to talk about the films we've been watching this year, which I'm really excited to do with all of you guys. But I thought we should open with some emotional and honest reflections

on what this year in movies was, because I certainly have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I still don't totally know how I feel about it. Amanda, does this feel like it's a reasonable episode for us to even be doing, given what's been going on in the world of movies the last nine, ten months? Yes, because we have to make do, as the movie industry has, and we'll continue to have to make do. Listen, we can only be in 2020 and talking about what's happening. And we did watch a lot of movies. I do think that 2020, despite the very dark circumstances for a

lot of the industry, allowed some different types of movies to shine. It allowed us to think about movies in a slightly different way. I found, I like my list a lot. I'm just going to go ahead and say that right now. I think this is a great Amanda list. And I, I reflecting on how I put it together, I did have a lot of different experiences than we normally would. And I think say last year, I also liked my list, but it was a lot more movies that were released in the last three months of the year vying for Oscars from filmmakers that you had heard of. I got a little bit of that on here, but there is more room and different types of filmmakers and different types of films. And it would be nice

if we could keep that part of 2020 movie going as we hopefully transition back into a slightly more normal world. And Amanda, you had so many different experiences too because there was the one movie you watched in your living room and then there was the movie you watched in your bedroom. But then there was the other one you watched in your living room. That one was great. That's true. Yeah. It's very sad. Adam, you've been making top 10 lists for years now. You're no newcomer to this strategy. Did this feel any different given how movies have rolled out to us this year? Well, the big structuring absence for me living in Toronto was the Toronto

International Film Festival, which I wrote about for the site and wrote about how, and it's not about being subpar or inadequate. It's just profoundly different as a showcase as a launching pad as a social space and as a like landmark within the year i mean i'm not someone who believes in recency bias i mean if a movie is released on christmas it can suck and that's what you know we have to all remember in terms of stuff coming out later but tiff really has that reset quality for where it's like okay now we're going to start thinking about what good is coming out and measure it against, I guess, what was good that came before. And I was actually looking back at something, Sean, that you and I wrote halfway through the year, which was the best films of 2020 so far. And I think the first half of this year was

a lot stronger, which is just the vagaries of distribution and coincidences of distribution. There's nothing zeitgeisty about that. But that list of 25 movies, some of which are on my final list and some of which aren't, was actually really, really good. And so when people say on Twitter or wherever, oh, I don't even think I've seen 10 movies from this year. I'm like, that may be true. And that's fine and fair. There's a lot of good stuff that came out. Whether it means anything that it came out during COVID, I don't think so. But if we're just like, what are some movies you saw that arbitrarily came out in 2020? It's a good year, not a bad year or a non-year. Yeah, it's interesting because it's not even a question of access. As I was putting together a longer list of the best movies of the year, almost everything that is making my top 20 is available to be streamed or rented right

now. The amount of access that people are having is unprecedented. Chris, I know you had the Tom and Jerry adaptation earmarked as number one, and then it was unfortunately pushed for you to HBO Max in 2021. So what did you do? How did you go about making a list? We'll see about that. We have some legal actions in place. Jenna Ellis is helping me make sure that we can see Tom and Jerry in theaters where it belongs. Well, how did you feel making a list? Because you're always the wild card, I feel like, in these conversations. Did this feel normal for you? Yeah. Well, this is probably the shortest long list I've ever had. So I would say there are

past years where if I make a list of everything I've seen that. So I would say, you know, there are past years where like, if I make a list of everything I've seen that comes out from that year, it's, it's a fifth between 50 and 60 movies. And this was probably closer to like 20 to 25, um, of films from this year. And this year, I guess for everybody, you know, it was really about survival. It was about that for humanity. It was about that for the movie industry. And I think that the movies that I chose as my favorites were ones that helped me along the way with that in some ways, in different ways. But ultimately, that was the theme I kept returning to. Should we just dive right in? I feel like we should just start sharing and talking about our

films. Adam, why don't you start us off what's your number five my number five film is Garrett Bradley's time which I think one of one of one of you other a lot picked that film but it's a documentary it won the best director prize at Sundance and it's a really interesting example of mixed authorship because the the filmmaker Garrett Bradley is well known, you know, not long established, but documentary filmmaker, installation artist, short films. And she's coming across the story of a woman who was incarcerated for three years as part of a bank robbery, but whose husband I think was sentenced to 60. And this was sort of, in addition to her experiences being in jail, it was about trying to help her husband get out while trying to also raise and develop a really interesting choice to take these contemporary home videos and sap them of color so that they had this monochrome black and white feel, which places

them pretty explicitly and stylistically in the past. So you have this movie that is about someone that is also kind of by that person. And the home movies serve as evidence, as flashbacks, and also just as time passing. This is the time that her husband, who's been incarcerated, has lost, and you can access the videos and see them, both in real time and afterwards and watching the movie. But it's like a life that he's not experiencing, a life that goes on in his absence.

His absence is felt in all of these images. And I just think that as a piece of construction and editing and integrating, again, a movie about a subject with that subject's own footage, which amazingly I learned was only done after a cut was complete. When you watch Time, you could not imagine the movie without the home video footage, but it actually was supposed to just sort of be made as not conventional, but as a more sort of normal documentary.

And then this choice was made later on. And I think it just makes the film extraordinary. Amanda, this is your number two movie of the year. Why is it so high on your list? And I honestly, I think it could have tied with my number one. And there are some thematic or kind of timely aspects, speaking to the 2020 of it all, that kind of tie them together. I'm not going to spoil my number one. But this is, I did not see time at Sundance, though I was there. I saw it in my home, in the living room, as Chris mentioned. And it is an incredibly intimate experience about a mass system, the system of

mass incarceration. And the home videos that Naaman was describing are used so artfully. And it does, you know, this is a well-crafted documentary, but there was something about watching it at home and watching someone's personal life and personal footage in my own personal space in a very tumultuous year that was so moving and effective. And I just think that this movie does so much about a system and about mass incarceration and about the history of Black Americans, but it's also a family diary and it is a reflection on families and relationships. And as Adam said, like the, the time, the time spent and the time lost and how life is an accumulation of moments. I think it's absolutely extraordinary. There's also one scene that I believe is part of the footage that

was shot by Garrett Bradley. It's in the more present-ish day and it's featuring Fox Rich, who is the woman in question, and who has a tremendous presence as well. And an interesting part of this story is you watch her life and what she has been doing over these 20 years. And she becomes like a prison abolitionist and gives a lot of speeches in addition to working on behalf of her husband. But there's one scene where she's just calling to check in on the case. And there's the moment where she is speaking politely on the phone to whoever it is on the other end of the phone. You don't see that person. And then you catch the moment of her reaction and her private feelings spilling out.

And it's heartbreaking and does more in two minutes to encapsulate kind of what a person in a system loses. Extraordinary stuff. I couldn't recommend it more. Yeah. The only other thing, what I just wanted to say based on what Amanda said, she made me think of, I mean, I know the scene that she's referring to, and you talk about that politeness, which is a form of performance, right? And it's different performances in different contexts. What do I have to say to get this person to listen to me versus this person? What can I say to the camera?

What do I say to myself? And with nonfiction cinema, people don't often talk about this idea of performance. It's like, well, if it's not fly on the wall observational, or if it's not objective, it's not documentary. But we all act, you know, all the time in different contexts, different people, different interactions. And there's so many wonderful examples of performance within time, and even the way the children perform for the camera. Kids love being filmed and documented and sometimes it's candid, but sometimes it's like really sticky and really sort of interactional like that. And again, it's the images of these children, the images of this

family that I think things being specific enough that people can relate to them. And this is a really, I think, a really potent example of that. Yeah, to my point about the accessibility, a film like this, I feel like 10 or 15 years ago, you would hear about it playing festivals and it might play in a few small theaters, some independent chains, and then you just have to wait for it

to come hopefully to your video store. And this was a case where this movie is co-produced by the new york times and amazon prime and it is available to watch on amazon prime and there is something almost perverse about watching a movie that as amanda said is so intimate and so specific about this very particular family's life and what they've had to go through on this massive conglomeration streaming video service. But that is really like a testament to where movies are now. And I think, Chris, in a strange way, your number five pairs with this,

at least structurally, if not thematically. Yeah, my number five movie is Host. It's a film that's available on Shudder, the streaming horror service, and it's directed by Rob Savage. What was that? It's a film that's available on Shudder, the streaming horror service, and it's directed by Rob Savage. What was that? Annie, was that you?

I heard it. I heard something. It's maybe not the best movie of 2020, but everybody was kind of still at home and still doing these sort of Zoom calls to maintain the simulacrum of a social life and uh the film is about a group of women who participate in a zoom seance that goes terribly wrong as you might imagine as since it's part of the horror genre and it is only 56 minutes long which is about as long as a free zoom call was back in july and uh not only is it just fucking terrifying which which it legitimately is, it builds off a lot of the ways in which Unfriended told a story using just the computer screen as the sort of interface from which people were learning information. And kind of really maximizes our ability to see a clock up in the right-hand corner and see people's names in little boxes. And then also there's like a chat window and there's also this, and there's also Google going at all times. But it also really captured the social anxiety and the class consciousness that I think was present in a lot of people getting this peek into people's

apartments that may or may not have been cleaned up for the Zoom call. Or the lighting might have been different in different people's places for different reasons. Or some people might be doing much better than you thought they were because they're staying with their family or they're staying with their significant other in a country home or something and uh this film captures all of that as well as just girl there's a ghost behind you you know amanda have you had a chance to see host yet? No but I've heard Chris talk about it several times and it seems like he had a great time and I feel like you know you've got a ghost behind you

I know what I need to know I also just think it's great it's a testament to horror's ability to be the most reflective genre of the society in which it's made and I think we remark upon it we talk about horror a lot on this pod, but it never ceases to amaze me that a horror movie is able to capture the anxieties and the

sort of, I don't know, like the feeling in the air better than almost any genre of movies. Chris, since we're all here and talking about Zoom, do you care to address why you've stopped inviting me to Zoom hangs socially? Is there any reason why you don't want to gather anymore? That's because you and I do so many road trips to Flagstaff, man. For our weekend in the theater,

in the multiplex. Amanda, what's your number five? I picked two because Sean Fennessey encouraged me to be idiosyncratic and let my light shine. And so here I am. My, they're tied or really they're of a piece.

It's two little films called Palm Springs and Happiest Season. It's all meaningless, right? I mean, I hope it's not all meaningless. And so I am running for movie czar in 2021, and my platform will just be make rom-coms good and quality again, and this will be the evidence. Now, these two are very interesting because they are both films that were intended to be released in theaters.

Palm Springs was sold in a very large deal at Sundance and to neon and Hulu and was going to kind of be a joint venture, but they were both theater bound. And then instead they went straight to Hulu and became sensations because you know what happens when you put something that is enjoyable to watch and is made with actual movie stars and a reasonable budget and some script, a script that took more than two days to put together is that people lose their minds and people watch this stuff. And all we want is something enjoyable to watch on a Saturday night when you don't want to think too hard and then to yell about who Kristen Stewart should have ended up with

for like four weeks later, which the debate is still raging on. And I'm not going to get into it. I'm just going to say that I enjoyed that film very much. And I enjoyed Palm Springs very much. And we talk a lot about what we're going to lose if movies all go to streaming. And we worry a lot about quality and how things will be put together. And I certainly worry a lot about all of the terrible romantic comedies that I have watched on streaming services. And I certainly worry a lot about all of the terrible romantic comedies that I have watched on streaming services. And I know that these were meant for theaters,

but it's possible and it's worth the investment. And please just give us good rom-coms. Thank you. An impassioned speech. Thank you. These were two of the movies that felt the most like, and I was going to say felt the most like movies to me,

but I mean that in a very specific way in that there was anticipation for when these films were coming out. And I feel like lots of people I knew organized their Friday or Saturday nights around, and then we're going to sit down and watch Palm Springs or Happiest Season. And then when you've looked online after that,

there was all this Harper versus Riley debate. And what a time. Chris, please weigh in. Harper versus Riley. Who would you have selected as a cisgender male? Yeah. This feels like a trap question, but it's very obviously Riley,

but I just feel like there's another shoe to drop in your question here, Sean. I'm not going to give an answer because I think it's, it's to each person, they should, you know, choose their own adventure. But I will say that the Riley character is part of a grand tradition of the, the other person in romantic comedies being totally dreamy and the person that you wish the wish the main character would choose and feel bad for. I'm thinking of James Marsden in The Notebook

and Patrick Dempsey in Sweet Home Alabama. And there are many more. And this, again, just shows me that this movie really put a lot of care and craft into the genre. And I believe that more movies should do this. Thank you. I'm just speaking in platform speeches. Speaking of platform, both of those movies are available on Hulu.

The movie that I've chosen for number five is not available really to be seen unless you have a virtual cinema pass of which there are a few. Hopefully the world will get a chance to see. I tried to do this yesterday for this. Did it not work? Well, I didn't understand that you... You can say the name of the movie, but I didn't understand that you needed to be online at a very specific time to get the virtual cinema pass.

Yes, it's almost like going to the cinema, Chris. You have to show up when the movie starts. Interesting how that worked out. The movie I'm talking about is Nomadland. It's directed by Chloe Zhao. It's clearly one of my favorite movies of the year. I saw it actually with Amanda at a drive-in screening as part of the Film Festival.

Separate cars. Absolutely. We were distanced. And one of the only movie going experiences that I had after February of 2020. And a beautiful one. A fascinating one. This is a film, for those of you who are not familiar with Chloe Zhao, she directed a film called The Rider a few years ago, which was a big festival hit. She's also the director of a forthcoming MCU movie called Eternals, which becomes a stranger thing to say out loud by the day, especially having seen

Nomadland now. But this is a movie that is based on Jessica Bruder's nonfiction book, Nomadland, Surviving America in the 21st Century. And it's about a kind of transient culture, people living out of trailers and vans and sort of not quite homeless, but not quite owning anything beyond their vehicles and what that means for life in America across the middle of the country, across the Southwest. And the film stars Francis McDormand in an amazing performance. I suspect that if you are listening to this show, you're going to hear a lot more about this movie over the next few months because it is both one of the best movies of the year and also a movie that has got its sights on the awards game. I think Chloe Zhao is a really interesting and unlikely person to enter into mainstream filmmaking and teaming up with someone like Francis McDormand, who is essentially an iconic American actress at this point. I think it's a very savvy move. It's a very savvy transitional move. She'd been best known

previously for working with non-professional or non-full-time actors and putting her and people like David Strathairn in the middle of this movie alongside people who are part of the community that they're that she's she's portraying is an interesting choice and creates a movie that it's a little hard to talk about because i don't want to spoil it for anybody even though it's not necessarily the most plot centric film ever made but it is uh for lack of a better phrase it is vibe and uh it's vibe connected with me at a time when i think we're all trying to figure out what the future is going to look like and where we're all headed together and that seems to be one of the themes at the top of its mind so that's my number five um adam is nomadland part of the mcu extended canon like would you say is that why you don't want to spoil it it's because yeah it's

in the doctor strange wing so um it's it is a multiverse of madness of its own kind uh so it's in the Doctor Strange wing. So it is a multiverse of madness of its own kind. So it's exciting for all you MCU fans out there. Adam, I just watched your number four last night. Why don't you fire away? Well, speaking of vibe, you know, Nomadland, a film of surpassing and for me, not quite convincing kindness is your vibe. You got a kind vibe. And Tim Heidecker, An Evening with Tim Heidecker, a stand- your vibe. You got a kind vibe. And the Tim Heidecker, an evening with Tim Heidecker stand-up special

does not have a kind vibe. It's what is misanthropic and nasty as anything I've seen this year. And it's cathartic and wonderful and brilliant. And if I had a best actor ballot, Tim Heidecker would go on it. And I should say that I'm not a Tim Heidecker aficionado. It doesn't mean I don't like him but I've

only seen a little bit of Decker and I find the on cinema universe to be a mixed bag that's not because it makes fun of film critics more things should make fun of film critics I love Jay Sherman making fun of film critics is a great uh honorable thing I just don't always laugh at it it's one of those things that I think is funny Without always actually laughing It's more like the inner haha But this stand-up comedy special is like about anti-comedy Right? Tim Heidecker is playing a version of Tim Heidecker

And this was shot a long time ago too Or a while ago So it's not a COVID era product It's like these people went out to see Tim Heidecker do stand-up And he's like I'm going to be the worst version of myself possible I'm going to give you dangerous comedy which sucks and the ways in which it sucks are so smart and so brilliantly intricate as a performance and piece of writing to make comedy that sucks in this particular way it's not like Andy Kaufman it's like this is just like the way that a shitty entitled person whose life and marriage and worldview are falling apart in Trump's America would try and present himself as a truth teller.

It's like, what if Bill Hicks was worse than Bill Hicks actually was? Because I don't like Bill Hicks. And it's amazing. It's so uncomfortable. The hour feels like it lasts for like, what, a week? Like, it's very tough to take, especially that opening bit with the microphone. But I'm just in awe of the writing and performing ability of a naturally funny person and a naturally political person to do this kind of performance art. And we're so inundated with lousy streaming specials.

I kind of like one that's lousy on purpose. I think it's brilliant. Yeah, this is directed by Ben Berman, who is on this show. One of the most entertaining conversations I've ever had on this show. He's the director of the Amazing Jonathan documentary, a interesting kind of surreal and unreal kind of film. And this is kind of an unreal comedy special. It is. I know exactly what you mean by the inner haha.

Chris, you're not a big cringe comedy person. I feel like in the past you've said you don't really respond to that, but I would like to, I'd like to see a camera on you while you watch this for the first time. As I've gotten older, I've gotten more, my appetite has developed more. Amanda, that's not really, this is not really your métier as well. No, not at all. Not cringe comedy, not deconstructions of the art of comedy, not being really uncomfortable for an hour on purpose. But there is something for everyone in this world. Amanda's got a big tent.

She's really like the czar. It welcomes all across ideology. Sean, did you laugh inward or outward laugh or neither because i did both i was kind of like very much taking it apart in my head while watching it being like that's funny that's my rational voice in my head going that's funny i laughed a lot too i think it's i think i think it's quite a it's it's quite an amazing feat of delivery to me. I have a very similar relationship to Tim Heidecker that you do, which is that I admire a lot of the things that I've seen that he does. I'm not a super fan by any means.

I did interview him a couple of years ago and he was absolutely the nicest, most generous interview I think I've had in years. And I've talked to a lot of really nice people and surpassing kindness, as you say, is something that I'm interested in. And I think it has kind of fucked with my ability to enjoy his comedy because he seems very decent and he seems to be shining a light on the indecent or the absurd. And sometimes your personal experiences can color how you feel about things. Speaking of personal experiences, I had a chance to interview the director of your number four, Chris. Do you want to talk about your number four film?

Yeah. So my number four movie is Shithouse, which was written and directed by this guy. I almost want to say kid, Cooper Rafe, who's obviously a very young guy who would, I believe if I remember correctly, Sean, like this was a short that he then sent to the Duplass brothers who helped him develop it into a feature. And this is going to be a little bit of a stretch to understand this. But when I was in late high school and then early college, I was super into indie rock, but also Chicago post-rock, like Don Caballero and Tortoise. It was very out there. It was not a performance of my personality, but it was very... Where is this going? What is going on right now? Okay. So I was super into this very obtuse kind of music. And then I started listening to these bands like Promise Ring and Brave List Emo music that was very, very arresting in its vulnerability

and its insincerity and its emotional honesty, which obviously it's called Emo. I kind of felt that way about this movie. I felt like I had had obviously a very, like this year's developed, I've developed a lot of scar tissue from this year as I'm sure everybody else has. And I watched this movie

and I was like almost kind of knocked back out of my seat by how vulnerable it was and how upfront it was about the emotional content of what it was about. And it having a really tough time at school. He's thinking a lot about his mom and his sister who lives behind him in Texas. And he's not clicking with people at school. And it just tracks his first year at school and the ups and downs of it and the people that he meets and the people that he quasi falls in love with. And I just found it to be a beautiful little movie. And I hope this guy makes a lot more.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know whether or not it's kind of maintained its initial buzz that it had when it first came out, but I still really, really treasure the time I saw it. It is a really nice movie. Amanda and I have talked about it on the show. I think we're excited about Cooper in the future too.

And it does seem like, it seems like seem like an homage to a small version of late 90s talky independent cinema that is not as present as you would think it would be. Very before sunrise. Kicking and screaming.

Except we're all really old now. That was the trip of it to me is that it did have those feelings, except I'm used to watching these movies with the people being 10 and 15 years older than me. And I'm looking forward to what life is going to be like. And this made me feel like the kids are all right. And I appreciated that. Speaking of being all right, Amanda, what's your number four? My number four is David Byrne's American Utopia, which is the filmed version of the Broadway production. And it was filmed by none other than Spike Lee. And I have to say this

was probably my most rapturous and emotional movie watching experience of the year. I again, watched it in my living room at like 2 PM on a Thursday by myself and was completely overwhelmed. And a lot of that is because of the genius of David Byrne. And I think the genius of this production and my relationship to his music over time, you know, some nostalgia and some reflecting on that voice and, you know, Stop Making Sense and my relationship with all of that certainly inflects this choice. But I also think that this as a piece of filmed art is incredible. And I think what Spike Lee does in terms of communicating the staging and the movement and particularly the choreography by Annie P. Parsons is electric. And I found myself just having like a really elemental response to like capital A art. And I was like, it's amazing what you can do with music and movement and people and the way cameras work in order to create a performance all its own on my screen. I do think it helped that

this is a film and a production about community and joining together and being all in the same place at the same time. I certainly needed some of that in 2020, but I think it's extraordinary. I don't think we're talking enough about it and I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it it's a great recommendation I love it I would recommend it to anybody as well number four for me is soul that's two movies in a row I've chosen now that very few people have had a chance to see I think a lot of people are going to get a chance to see this movie because it is premiering on Disney plus on Christmas Day. And frankly, I'm fascinated by that decision, not because of the business strategy, but because of the fact that this movie was made at all and what it means and how children are going to respond to it.

Because this is one of the bleakest existential explorations that I have seen in a long time. And it's a movie that is literally about where do our souls come from? How do they manifest in the world? And how do they influence what we choose to do with our lives? That seems a bit absurd for a Pixar movie, but this comes to us from Pete doctor, who I think is probably the most existentialist of all of the Pixar auteurs. Um, he is the person responsible for inside out. He's the person responsible for up and he has hit on something and it's clear that he hit on it when he after wrote he wrote a screenplay for this film and seemed to be having some struggles with the main character and so he widened the aperture and reached out to kemp powers who's

a playwright to help fix the story that he couldn't get to work right and kemp powers came in they changed the lead character, it sounds like, from an actor to a high school jazz music teacher and aspiring jazz musician. And that clearly unlocked the story and it unlocked its perceptions of creativity and where creativity comes from. And while this is a very accessible and entertaining and goofy animated movie that stars the voice of Tina Fey, it's also just an extraordinarily deep movie. And I know that as animation doubters, Chris and Amanda, you guys are not as interested in hearing me say I can't believe how thoughtful and exploratory a movie like this can be. but I'm consistently amazed by what P doctor is able to do in terms of tapping into big ideas, because frankly, most movies are not this curious and not this interested in trying to have

these conversations. Um, and so I was just knocked out by it. I think it's not, it, I don't think it's a plus plus plus tier Pixar for whatever that means, but I was really, really,

um, what's a plus plus tier toy story. Certainly. Um, I think it's A++ tier? Toy Story, certainly. I think it's not quite as good as Inside Out. I'm very fond of Ratatouille. Very fond of Finding Nemo. Don't mock, Chris. I saw Ratatouille.

That guy mixes it up. He was a rat who was a chef. Adam, does your daughter like Pixar films? She does, although the great discovery of the year was showing her my neighbor totoro on netflix animated filming which literally nothing happens like they eat cucumbers at one point and she's like this is great so i think that she's going to be a big fan of slow cinema uh like her dad her favorite pixar movie is the one i know there's only one where where there's a big chase that takes seven hours. I don't know if Soul has one of those too.

That's up, I think, right? Yeah, lots of chases. Yeah, no, she likes My Neighbor Totoro and everyone should watch My Neighbor Totoro. Your daughter's tweets about Mank have been just savage. I've never predicted that she would be such a well's head.

On the one hand hand she understands the film connects to Fincher's eternal interest in loneliness but she also knows that when they're talking about Dracula and the Wolfman that's hugely anachronistic. Yeah. I thought she crossed the line on that particular

Jeremiah but I hear what you're saying. Yeah, I mean she's my favorite person to talk to about my four-year-old daughter Leah yeah I love her well you've completely um mitigated the need to talk about Mank later in the pod because you summed up all my feelings which is yeah this course is worthy of a four-year-old um okay what's what let's go to your number three Adam well my number three I was joking about My Neighbor Totoro being slow cinema, but for my number three,

I'm going to hold it down for a movie that I think we've either talked about, Sean, you and I. I know in person, certainly in print, because it was on our list. I forget if we talked about it on the pod, but I'm going to insist that it's here, which is the Vitalina Varela by Pedro Costa, who's a Portuguese director.

And it's not that I want to rush through it. I mean, I don't. And as a movie, it's the opposite of rush. It's stately, meditative, slow. It weighs on you. These are not bugs. These are features. This is what Costa's cinema is. I think he's one of the great living filmmakers and a singular talent, even though he connects to a tradition that he himself would invoke a filmmaker like John Ford, even though his film is not remotely Fordian, it's about home and community. And so, you know, he's a big, big, big name in a particular strand or arena of film watching. And I don't, it's not about not believing in the division between high and low, but it's

like, you know, you take this film seriously and you take soul seriously and you take Mank seriously. I mean, people should talk about what they like. So in a way this film is a bit of an outlier and I don't mean for the ringer or for this pod, but I mean, for almost anything, except for the film community where this isn't an outlier, this is the center of what people care about. And I try and occupy these different rings, honestly. Right. I love Pedro Costa.

I love this film, which is about a woman who is coming to collect her husband's effect. She gets there just too late after he's died. He's been away for 25 years. Be an interesting double bill with time, actually, about a couple that are separated, although it's not incarceration, it's work. She arrives from Cape Verde to Lisbon. She's just a bit too late, and she kind of is picking through the figurative and literal wreckage of his home and his life and his absence. She is playing herself

the way Costa's actors often do, as these kind of stylized versions of themselves. The movies have a documentary aspect, but they're also like looking at Caravaggio paintings, like they're just portraiture. And it puts me in mind of seeing the film at TIFF last year in a pitch black, silent room where you could hear a pin drop. This film forcing you to meet it, not halfway, but like 10 miles down the road in its direction. And I love that about it. And I don't mean for that to play as a reversal of that where people are like, God, that sounds mean it's not it's thrilling it is what it is and if you said like what is the most beautiful piece of filmmaking you've seen this year probably this so if anyone's listening and they want to find it it's being distributed by grasshopper i think it's available on grasshopper streaming platform and it's relatively easy to find and uh I can't praise or recommend it highly enough. One tip for anybody who wants to watch this movie, make sure it's dark when you're watching it.

Because this is a contrasty exercise in shadows, as all Costa movies are. And this one in particular, if you can't see your television, and I have heard people as elevated as Manola Dargis complain about the fact that if you live in particular, if you can't see your television, and I have heard people as elevated as Manola Dargis complain about the fact that if you live in California, for example, the sun is everywhere. And it's hard to watch movies and to appreciate what the movies are trying to accomplish. And probably none more than this one, because the first time I tried to watch this movie

way back in March, I was like, I should not be watching this at 3 p.m. on a Saturday. That is not the right time to do this. So wait until 10 p.m. strikes, close the shutters, close the blinds, and then fire it up. Okay. Chris, Vitalina Varela is also your number three. Is that right?

I've not had the pleasure of seeing that yet. No, but Chris likes no time too old to die young, and it's basically the same thing. Oh, in. The way that reference show, just like time doesn't happen. Same, same,

same deal. CR, what's your number three? So this was probably the surprise for, I surprised myself by, by this movie, but it, I, I really,

really love it. It's called the nest. Uh, and it is directed by Sean Durkin who last, his last feature was Martha Marcy, may Marlene. You're embarrassing. and you're exhausting. I paid our rent.

I paid for Ben's school. I bought you a car. I bought you a horse. I paid for construction on your barn. You're delusional. I'll make money for it. And this is a movie that stars Jude Law and Carrie Coon. It's set in the mid 80s.

It starts in America. And Jude Law comes to his wife played by Carrie Coon and says he's a stockbroker banker and he says you know it's kind of dried up for me here I want to move back to London there's a lot of opportunity there for us and they move to this really lovely manor in Surrey

and their lives fall apart and highly recommend to people who enjoyed the fight scenes in Phantom Thread. This is a portrait of a marriage just dissolving right in front of your face. But Durkin was very influenced by late 70s horror movies and also early 80s Alan Parker dramas like Shoot the Moon. And I think that in a year, if I'd seen 50 movies from this year, or if there was just like a huge field, this would be a real like, hey, this is really underrated.

Not enough people are talking about how good The Nest is. And this year, it's just, it's straight up just one of the best movies I saw this year. Carrie Coon gives my favorite performance of the year as this woman, Alison. And the thing I loved about it most is obviously for The Watch, I have to watch it. I choose to, and I have to watch it I I choose to and I have to watch a ton of television and uh one of the conversations that uh that we have a lot on the watch and even in the crossover episode that we did is just like what constitutes a movie now

and what constitutes a television show and the thing I loved so much about the nest was it's uh a closed loop it is, every choice that is made in this movie is the right one. There is no excess fat and it is a complete story. There is no like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we had like six more episodes of that? It's like, no, it is just like Sean Durkin found like the perfect story to tell. It told in the perfect way it's shot. It kind of really reminds me of like Gordon Willis photography from some of those late 70s American dramas that we love so much. And I just can't speak highly enough about it. It's definitely stuck with me more than almost any movie I saw this year. Amanda, I don't think you and I talked about The Nest one time on this podcast.

I confess I haven't seen it, which is really embarrassing as the regional president of the Jew Law Fan Club. Amanda, you will love this movie. I know, I know. As soon as you said country, it's, it's one of those things where I believe it was at Sundance and it was on my Sundance list and I never made it at Sundance and I just kind of kept forgetting and then you didn't text me about it. So, um, I'm, I'm, I'm going to watch it this week. I didn't love it at Sundance, but I would be willing to watch it again and see how we feel. If that's something you want to do before the year is out. Um, Chris, great pick. Okay. Amanda. Um, I think we should skip you and save the save. You're number three for the big finale. It's nothing personal.

It is entirely personal, but continue. You're right. It is, but I'm hosting today. So it is what it is. Number three boys state for me um we did an entire episode about this show or excuse me about this film speaking of sundance which i saw at sundance directed by jesse moss and amanda mcbain i feel as though this movie has gone not under the radar because amongst the i don't know the film criticism film culture writing literati it has been covered ad nauseum but the film can only be seen on Apple TV+, I believe. And because of that, I don't think a lot of people have watched it. And it's a very interesting thing.

And it's a very interesting thing in the imagination of a post-Trump America, because it's a portrait of Boy State, which is this state-by-state program in which young men between the ages of, I don't know, this seems like 14 to 17, participate in essentially a summer camp of American politics where they learn how governments organize, how elections are formed and are run, and how iconography is made for better and worse in our American political system. And this is a system that's a program that's supported by the American Legion. And Jesse Moss and Amanda McBain go inside of one of these congregations over the course of a week in Texas. And what they find is something that is, you know, I think arguably maybe a too

neat allegory for how we get the politics that we have in our country. But I think an immensely entertaining and funny and insightful and touching portrait of a bunch of young men. And I think one of the most interesting things about it without spoiling things, if you haven't seen this movie is what all of the young men who were featured in this film have said about who they are now, having seen themselves on screen. And I wonder if you could get in the cold light of day, a grown American politician to reflect on themselves with as much candor as a few of the young men have in this movie. Nevertheless, it's a zippy and very entertaining piece of

verite filmmaking, extremely well edited. And most of these films, I think, are in the casting, and they've just landed on four unforgettable kids. So that's Boys State. I would recommend it. Say hello to Tim Selects, Tim's everyday value menu. Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax.

Try one or try our full Tim Selleck's lineup. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada. It's time for Tim's. Okay. Number two. Adam, I think you and I share a number two. Well, we sort of share them.

What is your number two? Well, I think when you're alluding to sort of share, I think you picked two films from the Small Axe series. I cheated. And I think on the Google Doc I respected the rule of law and chose one. Didn't Richard Brody do like four on his top 20?

Richard did a top 36 list that included Mank. I think at number 34. you know, for... Legend. Legend. But for me, I mean, I put down Mangrove. I'm just as happy to talk about Lovers Rock,

which I'm assuming you also picked. And because you have surpassing kindness, and I mean, I'll start mine off by being negative, which is that I'm not hugely fond of the films of Steve McQueen while considering him a major filmmaker. You know, he's one of those guys I think that for me, I've respected and been somewhat frustrated by his talent because he has a brilliant compositional sense. And he's daring and he's provocative and he wants to make movies seriously. And I've always felt that there was something very self-applauding about that in his work. There's times where I think he confuses

the power of what he's doing and the impact that it's going to have, you know, with the actual subject of his film. I think sometimes his talent is the subject of his work and it's frustrating to me. And I think that in different ways, Mangrove and Lover's Rock, they're deeply serious. Mangrove more obviously than Lover's Rock.

But Lover's Rock is not an unserious movie in terms of what it's dramatizing. But I find that he's relaxed. And I think that if you compare the way he makes a courtroom drama in Mangrove versus, oh, let's pick a movie out of a hat, The Trial of the Chicago 7 by Aaron Sorkin, as two courtroom dramas made in the same year. It's just really interesting to see him working in a conventional format and not actually exploding it, but just poeticizing it. And making it actually about something. This is a movie that's about the aftermath of a riot in 1970 after a number of police raids on a restaurant that had done them the indignity of existing as a community hub. They projected all kinds of abuse of power and projected white on black racism onto this space. And then it was litigated in court. And the court case is actually not incidental to the movie. It's extremely interesting, but it's not the sole thing that the movie is about.

And it contains the single most powerful moment I've seen in a movie this year, which is as the protest is coming together and people are marching and shouting and declaiming and confronting the police, there's a man carrying his small daughter along with the crowd in the first rank of the crowd. And then as it turns the corner, he leaves. And it's not an evacuation of political principle. It's like, I don't want my kid to get hurt. And that's a moment that is like a short story or a novel in two seconds. And I give it up to Steve McQueen because that's filmmaking, that's staging. It's remarkable. So there's a lot more to say about the movie. And I forget if you guys have talked about it on the podcast, there's a lot to say about performance and about political content

and how closely it hews to the historical record instead of literally inventing an ending like Trial of the Chicago 7 does. I mean, it's like a very interesting contrast. But that moment is enough for me to make it a film of the year. For sure. For so long it's a shame That I've got no time To pay your saving It's a fascinating bit of business across the board because Amanda and I mostly talked about it

as a delivery vehicle, which is this kind of five-part series of films of varying length delivered to people episodically week by week, which is just so unusual. I've been having a hard time thinking of a comparison. And I interviewed Steve last week, who, unlike you, I'm kind of a blind... I'm extremely faithful to him i i think he is like one of the signature artists of the 21st century and i it started out it sounds like as a a tv series a mini series that was connected with the shared characters across all five episodes and that ultimately it just seemed like that didn't make sense and that didn't do well enough by the total picture that he wanted to portray of black life of west indian life in london in the

60s the 70s the 80s and the 90s and so these films all attempted to do that and do that mostly successfully i would say um mangrove and lovers rock are the first two installments those i think are the two best of the five films that he's put together. And not unlike Host Chris, which you're talking about, which is only 56 minutes, Lover's Rock, by contrast to Mangrove, which is this two-plus-hour classical historical courtroom drama, Lover's Rock is something I don't,

I've never seen anything like it in my life. I actually don't know if there's ever been another film that is quite like this. It's a hangout movie. It's an all-in-one-night movie. It's a orgasmic soundtrack movie. It's a movie that is as much about movement as it is character.

It's riveting. Well, the analog for the whole project that some people have proposed is the Decalogue, right? The ten short films by Kieslowski, which are all based on the Ten Commandments that have self-contained stories and a kind of overall unity you know but i love trying to reconcile as you say something as in a way conventional and i say conventional as a compliment for mangrove

with something like lover's rock which someone else said is like what if one of clare denise musical sequences was a whole movie right like what if the dance scene in 35 Shots of Rum was 65 minutes long which I think sounds sublime and the best parts of Lover's Rock are like that man there's some incredible bits of physical choreography in that movie and camera work moving through bodies in space and you kind of find yourself asking something I don't ask anymore with CGI action scenes. I find myself asking, how do you do that? Completely. So I was thinking about this when Amanda was talking about the intimacy of time. Lovers Rock is, it recalls something that honestly

in our personal lives, me, Amanda and Chris have talked about, which is that feeling when you go out one night, you have a few drinks and then you go to a club and you dance. And that there is really nothing like that. And that we are months and months away from recapturing that. Now, I'm pushing 40. And so I may never experience that again as an old man. But the way that McQueen captures that specific feeling of two bodies interacting in that way at a party is so incredible. And the sincerity of that moment and the sincerity of the musical choices, I think I've asked Bobby to make Silly Games the theme to this week's episode because that sequence and the way we hear that song at the beginning of the film when the women are singing it in the kitchen as they're preparing the food and then that ecstatic

extended sequence when they're all singing it and dancing on the dance floor in the kitchen as they're preparing the food. And then that ecstatic extended sequence when they're all singing it and dancing on the dance floor in the middle of the film. It's just amazing. I mean, I really, I love McQueen and I'm not surprised that I love these movies, but I don't know that I was expecting anything like this. So once again, if you would like to watch this, it is available on Amazon prime, which is just so strange that Steve McQueen made five movies and just they're putting them up on Amazon Prime for you to check out it's it's really a testament to where things are right now so that's some mangrove number two

for Adam mangrove and lovers rock number two for me Chris let's go to your number two my number two is with you and Amanda yeah oh so we'll hold your number two then okay Amanda I'm good and I your number two is also time.

That's yeah. Which we got to talk about a great length. So also on Amazon prime. Okay. So we're shooting right ahead. Thank you, Jeff. You can,

you can send us my guy. Okay. All right. You can send him a letter. Um, Adam, what's your number one? The 11th consecutive year. The best film of the year is labor day directed by letter. Adam, what's your number one? The 11th consecutive year,

the best film of the year is Labor Day, directed by Jason Reilly. No, I'm going to mention a film that, in a weird way, doesn't feel over-discussed, because she's such a modest filmmaker, but this is Kelly Reichert's First Cow, which we've talked about. I've talked about it at least once on a podcast.

You guys have talked about it. It feels like ancient history because this was like one of the first casualties of theatrical. And then it was like, is A24 going to put this thing out? And then it kind of came out when it looked like things were easing up. And, you know, now all these other movies have come out and it kind of resumes its rightful place as a movie people kind of forget because because that's the thing about Kelly Riker. She makes films that are so small and self-contained and true that when we get to this end of the year time, people kind of forget them.

She's never gotten her due in terms of awards. And that to me is a badge of honor, but it's kind of funny that at the end of the year for me, people like, Oh, I don't mean this particular podcast, but we're like, let's talk about movie X. I'm like movie X isn't as good as first cow i know first cow played at the new york film festival last year i know it's old news it's still the most emotionally engaging thing i've seen all year i think about that opening and closing image which i won't spoil but will allude to of let's say two people who time forgot kind of being remembered.

And the way that this movie visualizes and dramatizes friendship and solidarity in a country that is not kind to these things, in a country that even before there's a line in the film where they say history hasn't gotten here yet. And even if that's true, the cruelty of history is well in place and it's not fair. And I think that Rt is just the great filmmaker of American failure. And it's not about picking fights between directors because I think Nomadland is okay and I think Frances McDormand is very good.

But I think a comparison between, you know, Chloe Zhao and Chloe Reichardt is inevitable, which is why people kept making it in reviews of both movies. And I think that in dramatizing the past, Reichardt has equally, let's say, I'll be nice and say equally good, equally interesting things to say about America in 2019, 20 Trump era America, as Chloe Zhao does by addressing it directly. Some of the people listening to the show have probably seen First Cow already, but you guys have a big tent. It's

not just Amanda who has a big tent. The know, the big picture is a big tent. If you haven't seen First Cow yet, and if you've laughed at the title, which is the second easiest title to make fun of of the year after Manc, and some idiot made a First Manc tweet the other day, and I was just like, I want to die because this is what we do now. But if you're listening to the show and you haven't seen First Cow, watch it because it's sublimely beautiful and Kelly Reichardt forever. I interviewed Kelly in February and she wouldn't shake my hand because she was concerned about COVID-19. And she was the first person who

wouldn't shake my hand. And I'll never forget that when I talked to her because she was not being rude by any stretch. She was just trying to be safe. And I think I first saw this movie, a tell your ride in 2019. So it has now been 15 months since the movie first struck, but you're the cow brother, truly. Um, but I I'm with you. I think one of the fun things about all the lists that you guys have made

thus far is like, I probably could have grabbed any one of these films and put it in my top five. Um, and despite the circumstances, there was a lot to choose from. Chris, why don't you give us your number one now?

Oh, sure. My number one movie is the best time I had watching a movie this year. It's called the vast of night and it's directed by Andrew Patterson. What's going on? 718 here at WOTW. We got a sound we'd like to play that seems to be bouncing around the valley tonight

one of the things I love about coming on big picture is that we get to talk about not only the movies that we love but like why we love movies and what movies mean to us and I felt myself I felt like a kid watching this movie I felt like not only a kid just blown away by like seeing E.T. or Jaws or Star Wars for the first time,

but I felt like the teenager who first fell in love with the art of movies. And this is essentially an avant-garde Amblin movie. It is a movie set in the 1950s in New Mexico. And it's basically a two-hander between a teenage girl who's a telephone operator and a young guy who is a radio DJ in this town of 500 people in New Mexico. And they start getting calls in over the switchboard that there is something strange happening in the sky at night, which is obviously a UFO, given New Mexico is the location.

And the movie itself was made for about $700,000 in Texas by this guy, Andrew Patterson, who I've never heard of, who apparently raised the money while also making commercials for the Thunder, for the Oklahoma City Thunder, and making short films

for the NBA team. And is basically the making of this film to me is as important as the movie itself, but it's hardly the reason to see it. It's just really cool that people still try and do stuff like this. That people still try and go off and make a movie their way,

make the story that they want to tell for a very small budget comparatively to other budgets and make something that feels completely fresh and original. The dialogue in this movie is probably the selling point. And it's not cool.

The dialogue in this movie isn't even really discernible. It's cranked up at this unbelievable speed. Most of it happening, overlapping so that there are three or four different speakers speaking almost all in this monotone, cool cat, 1950s vernacular.

And you almost kind of need closed captioning on to even understand anything of what's happening. But it takes place over the course of one night in this small New Mexico town with this basically a UFO incident. And it took my breath away. There are shots in this movie that are among the most jaw-dropping things you'll see this year, where I guess he put a kid in a go-kart to drive around this small town that they basically rented out in Texas to be one-ers. There's also just these moments of incredible, like beautiful humanity in it. And it's the only movie this year with the exception, I guess of Mank that I,

I basically started over again as soon as it was done. And that is almost the most 2020 thing about it is that now that we have all these movies on these streaming services, one cool thing that like nobody else else in the history of moviegoing really was able to ever do this is to just re-watch a movie, a brand new movie, immediately. And Vast of Night is something that really rewards multiple viewings. You notice really cool little flourishes that it has,

but also just the layers of dialogue in this movie are the kind of thing that you need to kind of experience more than once. And yeah, so it was just, this was my favorite movie of the year. I know that Adam and I are both admirers of this movie, but I must say, Chris,

while you were talking, Amanda had Chris's talking about shots again, face the whole time. No, that's not true for the record. I started zoning out when it was like the fifties, like fat cat dialogue or whatever. No, Chris, I knew that you were going to pick this movie.

And that's great. I have not seen this movie, obviously, because I don't watch horror movies or things that Chris drones on about a great length. But it does have brand recognition at this point as it feels like one of the signature like 2020 watch at home movies and yeah that's because of you and your speechifying thank you can i say something quickly about vast thing which is a lovely movie i think we did a half year podcast where i was talking about andrew patterson who i don't know and still don't know i still don't know you andrew patterson have not talked i was like don't rush off and level up immediately because this is the kind of movie that gets you paid. Right. This is like you see this and it's like, go make something else.

Just one of those wonderful cases in recent American movie history in the last 30 years where whether it's a Sam Raimi or Christopher Nolan or even James Cameron making The Terminator, it's like the ingenuity has to do with the lack of resource. And it doesn't mean that I don't want to see what a filmmaker like this will do with something else. And I, if it ends up being a Marvel movie, that'll be very good for future generations of Andrew Patterson's like, that's great. But the leveling up is the debut, you know, the filmmaking in this is phenomenally good. And I wonder if more resources will improve that, or as sometimes happened with these other young tyro you know directors if that's going to take something away from it i love watching someone inventing ways to show you

something and to have you hear something people compare it to spielberg because of the ufo and the alien in the small town and it's one of the few times people have done that with a young american genre film where i'm not rolling my eyes i I'm kind of like, it's not about being a next Spielberg. There's no such thing. But this comparison's not stupid in terms of how well this guy understands how to put a movie together. It's brilliantly made.

Just straight up brilliantly put together. It's also, I mean, it is borderline acknowledging of that fact. I mean, it essentially kicks off like an episode of The Twilight Zone. It's no mistake that Spielberg got his start shooting episodes of that fact. I mean, it essentially kicks off like an episode of The Twilight Zone. It's no mistake that Spielberg got his start shooting episodes of Night Gallery. You know, like there's connectivity

among all these things. If you haven't seen The Vast of Night, once again, I guess thank you to Jeff Bezos because that movie is available on Amazon Prime. I'm sensing a trend here. Amanda, why don't you share with us your number one? Okay, so I'm doing my number one now and my number three later.

I just want to say for the listeners that I actually did put my list in some kind of order. You know, I believe in pacing, even if this podcast doesn't. No, that's fine. My number one is a film that we have discussed before on this podcast and that I have talked about before. But guess what? Buckle up. I'm going to talk about it again. It's Eliza Hittman's Never Rarely, Sometimes Always. Another movie that came out in theaters what feels like several lifetimes ago,

but was in fact in 2020. I, for no particular reason, have spent a fair amount of this year thinking about the relationship between government and healthcare. And also for my personal reasons, I have spent part of this year and really, I guess, a large part of my life thinking about the politicization and in a lot of ways, the marginalization of women's healthcare. And that marginalization can and does look different because there are a lot of us. And in the case of Never Rarely, Sometimes Always, it takes the form of a 17-year-old who is trying to get an abortion. And she lives in the state of Pennsylvania. And so she has to travel to New York in order to get it.

And that is the movie. And so it is a movie about an abortion, but it is not what we think of, or at least what I think of and what I think I've been trained to think of as like a Hollywood abortion movie. It's not about a decision. The decision's been made. It's not about how did we get here. It's about what do we do now. And Eliza Hittman has talked a lot about wanting to emphasize the bureaucracy involved. And this movie is very much about a process and it's, you know, a geographical and financial and kind of bureaucratic odyssey that she goes on.

But it really is bit by bit of what happens next and how do we get to this end goal? And I think, you know, I mentioned that it has something in common with time just in the fact that it's peep about a person lost in a process but um this movie explains the process itself in a way that i think is um fascinating and really effective and really infuriating and the other thing about it that um it is also about a person and there is a wonderful 17 year old um well a well, a character named Autumn played by Sidney Flanagan in the middle of it. extraordinary encapsulation of kind of both the extreme I guess existential pressure and also the total mundanity of being a young woman and how you're trying to reconcile both of those things at the same time and you can both overthink something or have so many things projected on you and sometimes it is unbearable. And it is the stuff of life.

And sometimes it's just something you're trying not to deal with. Or you're trying to deal with so you can get on. And it's confusing. And it is sometimes boring. And it is often really scary. And it's all happening at once. And you can see that in this character's face. And it's extraordinary.

And I think it's an amazing achievement of filmmaking. And I think it's also just an essential piece of art that I hope everyone will seek out if you've not seen it already. It's the movie that I felt was most set in the real world this year, sadly. And it reminded me, obviously, of great Sidney Lumet movies from the 70s. It was a New York that I recognized. It's a world that, unfortunately, we all recognize. The bus station, the places that they go, the choices that they have to make. It's the most realistic film I feel like I saw this year.

Loved it. We were having a good time on an episode last week, Amanda, talking about movies in which the title of the movie is uttered. This is the rare case where the title of the movie sequence is one of the most brutal and real seeming and weighted moments really that I saw in a movie this year. It's a great pick. I spoke to Eliza also earlier this year in straight up the absolute weirdest non-COVID day of my year in which Kobe Bryant died and also Eliza Hittman visited our very

weird apartment that we were staying in for a conversation about her very sensitive and thoughtfully portrayed film. It was highly confusing but nevertheless. I believe Bill and I were recording the Kobe Bryant podcast as Eliza Hittman was coming in. very very awkward she was a total pro though right wonderful filmmaker really nice person

okay Amanda's number three film of the year my Chris's number two film of the year and my number one film of the year is Mank now I've talked to all of you sort of about mank and adam you joined us for about 10 minutes last week to talk a little bit about mank amanda you and i did 90 minutes on mank last week i don't know how much more i have to say that is useful are you are you manked out already no no no well first of all chris i want you to be able to talk about it because you had not seen it last and so I'm excited to hear you talk about what you admired about it. And then I really

just, I want to disassemble the Mank discourse. I think there's actually a lot to be learned from this. And I know Adam has thoughts, but Chris, why don't you start us off with what you liked and why it made your list? Oh, I just loved it. I watched it twice this weekend. The first time through, very similar to the way you described it, Sean, was a little bit of a feeling around in the dark for what is this movie about? And it's crazy. I mean, it's about Mank. They said it was about Mank in the title. And I was like, wait a second, is this about Mank? Or I thought maybe I was going to get more Thalberg. No. But that first act is a little bit like, damn maybe I was going to get more Thalberg. No, I mean, that first act is a little bit like, damn, is he going to just read the script

to Citizen Kane in this bed? That's the movie? And then it obviously just like frees itself up and starts moving around. And I think that the second time through, and Andy and I were just talking about this, about whether you can say something is great if you're like, but you got to watch it twice,

really soon after you watch it the first time when you know okay like i know i need to know about like i know the sinclair stuff is coming and i know that um i know that uh shelly is like an important part and he's not just the seventh guy in this room the the level of appreciation i had for it probably doubled um i mean i thought it was great the first time through, but it's actually a movie where it's more rewarding when you actually know what's coming and you get excited for,

here comes the shot of them walking through San Simeon together. Here comes Marion and Mank doing their long walk and talk. So I adored it. I suppose we could get into the discourse that would probably be just as easy a way of talking about what we liked about it or what we think it's about. But yeah, the tweets

are tweeting right now. Adam, did you get a chance to see it a second time since we've spoken? Yeah, I have. Did you hate it? No. I mean, I wrote about it for the site and I've had some really good offline

conversations about the movie about things that other people have written about it things that are thinking about it I've been having some great online conversations about it I've found I've become a Manc reply guy so what I want to say which is not so much about the movie,

is just about reception. And maybe this will give you guys some stuff to play with. Because I think the 2020-ness of this all is really important. Here you have a film that is instantaneously available, not even with a festival rollout. And I'm not advocating for a festival rollout because that's the latest. It's not like critics should see the movie and then people should have to wait but this was a case of like everyone's seeing it at the same time everyone is trapped at home everyone is tetchy everyone is pissed off david fincher is making

incursions on turf that does not belong to him not that it belongs to anybody but this is old hollywood and old hollywood history is a very real thing. That is a historical discipline that matters. He's shooting because he's successful and he's singular and he's talented. He's kind of annoying. I've spent a year and a half thinking about him for reasons that I'm not going to quite get into, but are kind of predictable. And so he's been very, very much on my mind. This reception is fascinating because my impression is that people hate this movie, that a lot of the people who I respect a lot think it's dreadful. And yet it's 88% on Rotten Tomatoes and it's probably going to win seven Oscars. It inverts a lot of evaluative metrics.

And that's because it's something to fight about. But I also think it's a hugely imperfect movie. So I think that there are things to grab onto and gnaw at and pick at and fight at in this movie. And that's kind of on the movie. So I think that there are things to grab onto and gnaw at and pick at and fight at in this movie. And that's kind of on the movie, but I'll also say this. And then, you know, I think about Fincher a lot. When you think about how many of his movies are about loneliness and about people who kind of want to be heard and get attention and push people away in the process of looking for that attention i think it's for better or worse an auteur film i'm much less interested in the wellsness of it or the mankness of it than the fincherness of it but that's that's just me yeah i i think amanda

i think you and i agree about that this is is a portal into David Fincher's psyche. It is not a retrial of the authorship of Citizen Kane or really even of old Hollywood in many ways. But what do you think? What's been your reaction to the discourse, Amanda? I mean, I didn't participate in it except for when I asked you to text me highlights of it. And then I was like, are you joking? Did you make that up?

I feel pretty uncomplicated about this. I enjoyed the film. I enjoyed it the first time I watched it. I don't know whether that just makes me a nerd or whatever, or maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. I agree with Chris that it deepens on rewatch. Happily, I'm trapped in my home for the next three to six to nine months with nothing else to do, so I've got time. I don't view watching Citizen Kane or re-watching Citizen Kane as a chore. In fact, it's one of the great delights. So doing that and just being part of a cinematic experience was to me part of the appeal. I have felt cut off from that this year. But yeah, it's,

I just am reading it for like a psychological understanding of David Fincher and what he thinks about directing and what he thinks about writers and what he thinks about his relationship with his father and art and how much he is telling about himself. And I think that's fascinating. I love doing that. And if that's going to be in the context of a pretty zippy ode to 30s Hollywood, that is also, you know, quite cynical and making fun of everyone, which is pretty much my MO all of the time. All the better. Thank you, David Fincher. Please do more. Chris, I need you to do some cosplay for me because I've been trying to understand the mentality of a kind of person that I am typically very attracted to intellectually,

but that I have found myself repelled by over the course of the last few days. Oh, so you want me to play the Meg canceler? Yes, yes. I need to understand all of these big babies who really, really, really need to publicly defend Orson Welles and defend his

honor. A man who is amongst the most celebrated and historic and accomplished and worthy filmmakers of all time. He comes off fine in this movie. Who's leaving Mank being like Orson Welles was a cuck? That guy seems pretty cool in Mank. What are you talking about?

So you won't become a Mank cancer? I would only think that the people who would be mad are like the nine Frank Marion stans out there who are just like, that guy should have been president or something. Who is mad at me? Louis B. Mayer? Okay. I was just going to say, in terms of the Orson Welles of it all, I don't understand these people and also haven't really read their tweets. But to the extent that people are mad that this is not a realistic interpretation of or a factual interpretation of of what orson

wells contributed to citizen kane which was by the way directing it and making it congratulations to him one of the most celebrated filmmakers of all time but i mean we're just through the looking glass netflix and is going through a similar thing with the crown in terms of like why don't you add like a fiction disclaimer on top of this obviously fictional show? I mean, I need some personal responsibility from people at home. Okay. Like you need to understand that artistic license exists and that you're watching a fictional thing. That's what I have to say. I mean, I was going to take a, take a risk of putting on the main canceler hat. I don't like canceling anything. And least of all, you know, am I interested in canceling David Fincher, who has a big piece of mental real estate for me right now and who I think is a really brilliant

filmmaker? I think the Mank canceling should be separated from the Mank criticism, and criticism is not canceling. I mean, the anachronisms and inaccuracies in the movie are leveraged against the filmmakers' claims that they tried not to have any. And we went through the script and we made sure the research was solid the power of the movie is supposedly bound up in how it puts these historical hollywood figures in conversation with each other and in some cases if you're going to misrepresent people then don't call them those people if you're going to have a movie but like this was this person's agenda this was this person's relationship i think that if you handle it somewhat sloppily, and there's sloppiness in this movie from such a perfectionist filmmaker,

which I think is interesting, and I'm not going to psychoanalyze David Fincher, but his dad wrote it. And I think his love is for his dad and for his dad's script and trying to honor his dad's view of this period. I'm just interested in him as a Gen X filmmaker. I don't know how many thoughts he's ever had about old Hollywood Or how much he cares And that doesn't make me begrudge the many people Including film scholars and filmmakers Who really care about that period There's nothing wrong with caring about that period

When all eyes are on a movie That's going to dramatize and allegorize that period I think people feel like he's kind of trying to have it both ways The way sometimes people who make period pieces do it Where they say, well, it's an invention and it's artistic license. It doesn't matter. But also look at all this authenticity. I think it's a good movie and I like aspects of it an awful lot. But when we talk about the discourse, there's tweets, but there's also some really well-written, smart, negative reviews about it.

And in terms of pylons this is a 60 million dollar david fincher movie i mean that's kind of what happens when you're that guy you know and just wait for this for the oscars because if this ends up winning oscars all of fincher's claims which are real claims over his career to being a bit of a brat you know like that line in fight club i'd like to thank the academy which is a complete joke in the face of ever getting Oscar nominations. That's going to make this movie look even more establishment and make this movie even more conducive to criticism. The Manc Wars haven't started, guys. They have not begun. So I think you have put your finger on something that I find fascinating, which is that David Fincher fancies himself a countercultural figure operating inside of a big system. In the past, it was easier for scholars and critics and

fans to associate themselves with someone like that. And now this feels like some sort of establishmentarian move that is an awards play and seems to, maybe an ode to something. I don't really see it as an ode to anything other than his own, um, sense of the creator. But the thing that you described earlier, which is like these, these bids for authenticity and the, um, the choices to make the film feel or look like a film from the 1940s and whether or not there's inaccuracy in the story, like I'll be perfectly frank with you. I do not care if the film is inaccurate. It is utterly meaningless to me. There is a wealth of inaccuracy in the social network. And in fact, you could make the case that those inaccuracies make it a better film. And that does not mean that it is journalism. It's in fact,

as far from journalism as you can possibly get. And if you want journalism, read journalism, it's in fact as far from journalism as you can possibly get. And if you want journalism, read journalism, watch journalism, watch documentary maybe even. But that is not the purpose. And so I find there's two strands of the discourse. You're right. There is very thoughtful critique. And people are, of course, entitled to dislike the movie. I think as Chris was noting, and I even pointed it out on the pod last week the first time around I was like I don't I don't really know

about this this is a seems like a really self indulgent and somewhat a stray movie through the first half and it has I have deepened my appreciation for it but I don't totally understand

the like culture of mockery around it and I wonder if the movie was just called Citizen and not Mank, if that would not be the case. Yeah, or American or whatever, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

In terms of social network, we mentioned Richard Brody earlier. And Brody's review in the New Yorker of Mank, I don't know if you guys have read it. It's really good. He makes a claim that I think can be developed, which is the thing about the social network is it ends before you get a sense

of the consequences of what happened. So isn't it interesting that a decade after the social network, Fincher makes a movie about media disfiguring political discourse, right? And the guilt someone feels in connecting to that. And that's where I start getting feelings for Mank again, because I think it's a really good subject. And I think that Fincher's usually, as a political filmmaker, it's more just been about history and texture. Like, this is how things really look. Like, these are the shirts Mark Zuckerberg wore. You ever read the interviews with Zuckerberg

where he's like, those were all my actual shirts. I don't know where they found them, but I wore that shirt. How did they do that? Like, that's usually what Fincher means by authenticity. And here, if he sacrifices some of that authenticity, I think there's a topicality and an urgency to it that's not superficial that's not simple and that's pretty good and it's weird

to think that i'm kind of defending fincher as like a kind of political filmmaker instead of as a stylist but i think that for me is the better part of bank and the part that's going to tie it to this year for sure i think the thing that that has happened is that there's nothing that film critics and film scholars know more about than film history. And this is a movie that is ostensibly about film history. And so it has ignited a feeling, a passion, a specificity, a desire to be right in people. And I certainly understand that desire. But it's been interestingly misguided to me and is amusing in the face of a very odd movie year where I feel like this is something that is rewarding over time relative to a lot of other films that we've had a chance to see. But I don't know. What else is unsaid about this whole non-controversy? Can I ask a question about the quote discourse? Is it just the Orson Welles people and the historians, which I think Adam does a great job of noting that we should separate the people on Twitter from, you know, actual historians and critics and people who are thinking. We should do that for all things. But what is the rest of that?

Like, what are the Fincher heads? What are all my Fight Club friends? How are they doing? I mean, it's like the, you know, Letterboxd and Twitter are public spheres of criticism and there's no filter, but that doesn't mean that there aren't smart people there. And I'm going to be honest, the best pieces I've read on Mag have been on Letterboxd. They are sometimes mixed and negative reviews that are mixed in with stupid stuff. Increasingly the case about all film discourse, unfortunately.

Often so, but I will say this, there is a performative aspect to all social media discourse. And there is definitely a sense of like, take shots at Meg because it's a big Netflix Oscar contender directed by David Fincher. I halfway understand that impulse. And I halfway understand the impulse in the context of what I find to be an imperfect movie. And it's very weird to talk about a mob mentality when it's like, this is a $60 million Netflix Oscar movie. I mean, it's not like it can't be picked on. I think David Fincher is a good enough filmmaker that he can take this. You know, the chip on his shoulder, the chip on his shoulder chip on his shoulder that started with alien 3 is still there and the work speaks for itself guy made zodiac you know when i

see people in part of that discourse being like well he's always sucked or he's a hack i'm like well no you know and that's that's that's not true but if we if we respect filmmakers and think they're major filmmakers which i think fincher is in his way, they can take a partially persuaded by some of them. But you got to test yourself against that stuff and then you can still like the movie, which I do. Yeah, I think there's also just a lack of big ticket prestige movies

to go against Mank right now. That's it, Chris. It not only is going to get all the plaudits, it's going to get all the backlash because there is no other movie to backlash against. Last year, the conversation was at this time of year once upon a time in hollywood versus 1917 versus parasite versus the irishman versus uncut gems versus little women these were big mainstream noisy movie star bound films and we don't have a lot of those right now make is really the only one I think that has kind of emerged as at least a

a stalking horse of some kind. You know, I'm, I'm a little dubious of the, this film is going to win seven Oscars. Adam, I do think that there's a lot that's going to happen in January and February in terms of whatever the race looks like.

It's like, what could that even be like Wonder Woman? No, no. I think Nomadland. I think One Night in Miami. I think that Soul. I think that there's a bunch of movies that are not a part of this conversation

that we're having right now that are going to be a part of this conversation. Gerard Butler's Greenland is coming. Yeah, yeah. Amongst other things. I mean, Tom and Jerry, we talked about that, Chris. Yeah.

The Little Things, the Denzel Washington garbage crime movie, you know. I have a feeling that there's something about the old Hollywood-ness of it all and the feeling of Fincher now as a kind of master to be rewarded that I can really see this kind of winning those things. And it's just such an interesting trajectory from kind of brat to Oscar winner. I mean, you may be right. Some other things may get released. Maybe it'll be Hillbilly Elegy winning 17 Academy Awards. Who knows? It won't be.

No, but you could have said the exact same thing that you just said about Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. And that did not come true. That movie won one Oscar. I think that actually that old saw, that bit of Oscar bait that we've talked about, we may be moving on from that. And I think that the Academy is a little bit different now. We're going to find out. I just would not be surprised if this ultimately, I think, deeply cynical and

crypto quasi socialist film about the authorship of a movie and an old drunk screenwriter is not exactly in the sights of what the Academy is right now. I could be wrong. I agree. I do just also think Sean spent his weekend telling people on Twitter that they did need to watch citizen Kane right before watching that, then that would be helpful.

But the whole weekend, I didn't say that. But you know, that's true. Jesse, Jesse, Jesse Eisenberg. You need to do that thing where you like fake quit Twitter 17 times in a day. that's true Jesse Eisenberg at the end of the social network

were you like fake quit Twitter 17 times in a day I need to go outside but before I leave you will be betraying your citizenship unless you watch

Wells' early masterworks goodbye sir my rosebud is my Citizen Kane tweet that's where it all starts and that's where it all ends I'm in hell I just wanted to bring this up to point out that i think this idea that this this film is like quote difficult

or requires quote homework uh seems to have caught on a little bit i couldn't disagree more i think that that that's the thing that actually makes me extremely uh frustrated but you know once you get the tag of like i gotta sit down and really concentrate and this is this is something that requires time it you start to see the oscar chances dwindling a little bit yes i think that that's true i think one just one final thought and adam what you just said made me made this flash across my mind fincher is certainly a pessimistic cynical obsessive filmmaker but he's still pretty mainstream and when you sit down to watch seven you don't need to know anything you can just watch the movie and enjoy it and most of his fans are people that just sat down and watched panic room

or watched fight club you know I think mank to appreciate or to understand it a little bit more deeply, it doesn't require homework, as you say, Amanda, but it does require caring about context. And even if some of that context is fudged, it's better if you know it. The homework, though, actually can be a little distracting because the first time through, I think I was almost thrown off where I was like, Ben Hecht is in this movie. Holy shit. And I got really excited. And I was like, so what's the Ben Hecht subplot? And it's like, Ben Hecht is in this movie. Holy shit. And I got really excited. And I was like, so what's the Ben Hecht subplot? And it's like he's in two scenes and asks a guy if he's gotten laid.

And that's it. You don't need to know who George Kaufman is. You don't need to know who S.J. Perlman is. It's effectively broadcast within the scene that they are in, even if it is anachronistic. And yeah, I think once you go back through, it's like there's so much in this movie that I didn't know.'m happy to read about it i'm happy to educate myself about it but uh just as like a density of experience and as a um as a as a work of of cinematic art you know like

what the fuck are we talking about here like what are you gonna put up against it adam any final thoughts on mank this will be the last time you're ever asked about it. Never going to be asked about Mank again. No, I'm going to think and write more about it and hopefully feel like it's worth it. Not because I think it's exhausted as a topic or that I'm tired of it, but there is also the thing where it doesn't just attract a lot of dissent because it's the only thing to talk about, but it's also just never good when there's only one thing to talk about it. It's hard to be that kind of load-bearing cultural object of any kind. And yet at the same time, I saw a tweet, not that I believe things on Twitter, but didn't I read someone say that it's already fallen out of the top 10 on Netflix in terms of viewership? So, you know,

I was talking about the rarefied circle around Pedro Costa. The circle around David Fincher is less rarefied. The guy made seven. But we're still talking about something that is kind of a niche item. It's not like Roma moved into the top 10. The top 10 of Netflix this week is a real fucking Hall and Mirror's crazy talent.

Well, for the 75th consecutive week, it's too old to die young. They're having too old to die young parties. It's just a link to Amazon. Just a link to Amazon to watch that. Everyone is just, they're having too old to die young parties. Just a link to Amazon to watch that. No, but I mean, I think that like the exhaustion might actually be good.

People could kind of stop talking about the movie, but this is going to start up all over again. Cause I think it's going to get a kind of canonization. That's an award season type thing. And I think that's just going to make people even crazier. Although maybe by then people can go outside and not just tweet make puns, that's an award season type thing. And I think that's just going to make people even crazier. Although maybe by then people can go outside and not just tweet Mank puns, which is what people are doing.

Not me. I'll be fighting every well-zied in the street. That's what I'll be doing. Getting the vaccine and then punching scholars. Yeah, you're like Benedict Cumberbatch in 1917, but for Mank. That's right. Meet me in the foxhole where I will destroy you.

Okay. Well, this has been lively where I will destroy you. Okay. Well, this has been lively. Thank you guys for indulging my Manker. Is that it? My Mank anger? This has been the top five movies of 2020. I appreciate all of you guys

bringing such wonderful lists. It actually has been a really, really good year for movies and I hope to pod again with you soon. In the meantime, please tune in later this week to the big picture where Amanda and I will be ranking the films of Steven Soderbergh because there's a new Steven Soderbergh movie coming to a streaming service on the Thursday. We'll see you then. Thank you.