The Big Picture - The Truth About Netflix Buying Warner Bros. Plus: Snubs and Surprises of the Golden Globe Nominations and Jafar Panahi on ‘It Was Just an Accident.’

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Sean and Amanda have an action-packed show today, and they start with the biggest piece of news: Netflix’s $82.7 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery. They talk through their initial gut reactions to the news; cover the additional information that came through over the weekend, including Paramount’s hostile bid; and hypothesize whether or not the sale will go through (1:57). Then, they react to the Golden Globe nominations and try to make sense of what they mean for the Academy Awards (1:00:11). Finally, they briefly discuss Jafar Panahi’s ‘It Was Just an Accident’ (1:20:29) before Sean is joined by Panahi himself to discuss how he casts his actors, why he prioritized balancing a humorous tone and serious drama, and why he feels that his next film has to be about war (1:26:51). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Jafar Panahi and Sheida Dayani Producer: Jack Sanders Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about the future of movies. Good morning. And life itself. We have a staggeringly loaded episode. This fine Monday morning, it's 8 a.m. We will discuss the just-announced.

Golden Globe nominations, which seem not terribly important relative to everything else we'll discuss. We will also be discussing it was just an accident, which is the new film from Jafar Panahi. It's a Palm Door winning thriller, and it examines a chilling aspect of life under the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, as you may have heard on the show last week, thanks to Adam Neiman. It is one of the great movies of the year. It was also my honor to be joined by Panahi later in this episode to talk about the film,

how and why he made it in secret, his fascinating career, and outspoken dissident. and a world-class filmmaker. We recorded our conversation with Panahi before the news came out that he was recently once again sentenced to serve one year in prison in Iran when he returns to the country. So we won't be addressing that in that conversation. But I hope you will stick around for the discussion. He is an amazing person and an amazing thinker about movies. But first, we've got to talk about some assholes and suits.

Yeah. There was a major transaction, maybe, in the world of movies. movies and television, and we will talk about it right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last-minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast-free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now.

Okay, Amanda. I should have said suit jackets, hoodies, you know? It's true. I don't really know. It's true. It's true. It's more of a metaphorical, symbolic term than an actual description of what these men are wearing. Yes.

It probably is mostly men who are participating. On Thursday afternoon, we recorded our top five movies of the year episode, which is historically one of our bigger episodes, one that we spend all year preparing for. And then, of course, three hours after we finished recording. that episode, the news came down officially that Netflix's offer to acquire Warner Brothers was accepted, $82.7 billion. We have to talk about everything we know about this, but I just want to start by saying, I'm very happy that I did not drive back to the studio on Thursday night or on Friday morning or on Friday afternoon. Jack Sanders can attest that I strongly considered coming in on Friday

afternoon, even though I had two other podcast recordings that day. Yeah. Because in the span of 72 to 96 hours, a lot has changed. Sure. So including, we should say, as of the moment, we are recording about an hour ago, Paramount launched its hostile bid to try to rest control of the ownership of Warner Brothers or the sale of Warner Brothers from Netflix. So, you know, this is primarily a podcast about mergers and acquisitions.

It is going to be now. We're really excited to get into that nitty-gritty with you as Masters of the Universe. So it is ever-changing. But I think you're talking about how emotionally you needed some time to sit with it on Friday. Informationally as well. Yes, sure. I wouldn't say I was pounding the pavement as a reporter, but I certainly talked to a lot of people in the business over the last three or four days.

And, you know, I think we're going to have to balance this conversation between as much information and context as we can provide the listener who cares mostly about movies. Right. And as much feeling as we can convey about how we feel. So I do want to start with how do you feel, you know, given everything that has transpired, but also taking into account maybe what Thursday night felt like. Right. So there's the kind of like psych 101 prompt of if you, if you. you could know the time and manner of your death, would you want to? No, but I'm like, I'm serious.

And most people would say no, right? Because we are all going to die. That is part of the human condition. But there is something about knowing how and when that changes your entire experience. And we are finding out how movies are going to not die and but change dramatically. And we have known that this is coming in many, in many, situations, it is already happening. The way that we consume movies and the way that movies are made and distributed and conceptualized and consumed has been changing dramatically for 20 years.

And we have known that it would not be the Hollywood of our, you know, of our childhood of the 90s for a long time. But we've just been kind of like, well, I wonder whether this will happen or this happen, and there is something jarring about it being written down for you. Well, so actually, it's going to be that Netflix buys it, and they will honor all the existing distribution deals, and then they will slowly cut down the windows, and then your movie theaters will be sold out. To watch it go, to have it literalized or mapped out, is bracing, if not surprising. I generally agree with you. Yeah. I think I have. I have. I had. I have. I was, the same emotional reaction that I expected to have, which it felt like a very totalizing

conclusion to that 20-year build-up that you're describing, that it felt like, well, of course it is the company that represents the effect of destroying this thing that matters to us, right? Even if they aren't solely responsible, and I have a lot of feelings about ultimately how we got here, that, you know, Netflix did a tremendous amount of work to destabilize theatrical movie going. Yes. And so them taking over, arguably the most historic existing stand-alone studio in Hollywood history and bringing it under its umbrella. And, you know, as you said, honoring its agreements all the way up until that no longer is necessary to do. It felt very sad, very frustrating.

It was useful, I think, to have even just 24 hours to kind of chew on it and think about it. You know, there was some immediate reactions to this news, which was, on one side, a lot of people felt in an enormous amount of relief because this meant, if this were to hold, that Paramount would not get control. And if Paramount doesn't get control, then maybe perhaps the entire Warner Brothers studio is not enthralled to a Trump rubber-stamped corporation that has the interests of the far right in mind. Right. And additionally, if Paramount comes on in this hostile takeover, and it'll also acquire the cable networks, So then it becomes this sort of like what feels like a state-run social media ecosystem because then you're including CNN, you're including the news apparatus, you're combining that with CBS.

In the case of Netflix, they're buying a movie studio and they're buying a streamer in HBO. And that's really it. Now, those are two huge things, but it doesn't have that Orwellian quality that some of the Paramount acquisition does. Now, I think that's a very legitimate concern. Yes. And I don't want to minimize it. It just isn't actually the focus of what we do.

And also, I will note, administrations do end. There's a very reasonable way to say, well, it'll be very easy for J.D. Vance to continue on or Trump won't leave office. And we could speculate about those things. That's not what the show does. I do think that in a five years, if we are looking at a Democrat in office for the president and Paramount owns Warner Brothers, I'm not really even sure what the political effect of that is. It's hard to gauge what the impact would be. The Netflix side of it really mostly impacts the entertainment business.

And everybody that I talked to over the weekend, who you could use the word creative to describe them, was really depressed about this. And they weren't going to be happy about Paramount because it has the same effect, which is it just takes another studio off the board, another buyer off the board. it makes it a less robust economy.

Right. But it, I mean, it is consolidation. Yes. And so you are losing jobs and you're probably just, you're losing jobs in the actual like studio sense of all the people that are employed by Paramount and Warner Brothers. But then also in the amount of movies made. And so that affects everyone who works on a film, that affects, you know, the downstream distribution, you know, theaters, which we'll get to. Um, so it, I, you know, I understand that Paramount seemed like the quote unquote worst option. And I think we were even sort of expecting it. And we were. Yeah. I was not expecting Netflix to win at all. And also, you know, as of as of this morning, like, you know, who can say in terms of how it's, it's going to turn out. But, but the Netflix of it all. Also, so just it has that emotional, as you said, they, um, have become the figurehead of. you know, quote unquote, killing movies, even if it's all of the companies together that have done it. So there is something tidy. There is something like Aaron Sorkin-esque about Netflix

being the one to get Warner Bros. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on Select Nights, now through January 3rd. Step into a Winter Wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's kindest community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide, with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at Canada's Wonderland.com. I totally agree. I think the other shoe that is dropping that we didn't know was going to drop on this Monday morning,

but on Friday night and especially on Saturday night, every person I talked to said there's a 0% chance this deal goes through. Right. Zero. Yeah. That between the antitrust organizations in Europe, the Trump administration, people thinking before Bloomberg's reporting that Ted Sarandos had spoken with Donald Trump, that he would favor Paramount. The incredible. Let's, you know, let's spotlight that, Lucas Shaw reporting for a second, which is that Ted Sarandos, you know, has been at Marilago.

He was at the White House in November. There is obviously a difference between, like, the coalition of. Saudi money and Jared Kushner money and, you know, David Ellison's and the Allison family's like demonstrated history. But like, and also this is what executives do. They cozy up to administrations. But like Sarandos and Sarandos and Trump have, quote, kept in touch. Yeah. According to Bloomberg. I mean, there's no way for a deal like this to work without any sort of relationship, especially given the way that Trump navigates these, these kinds of mergers. And so there was like a real skepticism, a real hidden skepticism.

decision because you can't support it. Like, we're just two people talking. But you can't get on a podcast or jump into a newspaper and be like, there's a 0% chance this is happening. But that is how people that I spoke to felt about this. Now that seems even more true if it can be because of the hostile bit. And there was a lot of suggestion that a hostile takeover was very much a possibility as early as Friday morning.

But now we're in this fugue state where we can look at what Netflix has done and we can say, okay, this is a fascinating strategy. On the one hand, if they win this bid and the hostile takeover fails, they get the best, you know, most prestigious TV studio in the history of TV, basically, and they get to potentially plug it right into the Netflix system. And I'm sure Chris Nandy will spend a lot of time talking about that this morning on the watch. And then they get to take Warner Brothers. Now, it's not just that they get to take the apparatus of Warner Brothers.

They get everything that is Warner Brothers. Right. So that includes Batman and Harry. Potter and Lord of the Rings and Barbie and anything else you want that has been produced there. So this isn't just the home of Christopher Nolan and Clint Eastwood and Stanley Kubrick. It is the home of all of these characters. And the one thing Netflix hasn't been able to do is develop and continue IP for the long term. So if they get all of that stuff, it's kind of game over in Hollywood, at least in this particular sense of like streaming first being the most important thing.

If Paramount gets it, it just becomes a bigger studio. And it just becomes this continuation, I think, of what has been happening in Hollywood over the last 10 years. Disney buys Fox for $71 billion. Amazon buys MGM for $8 billion. Skydance merges with Paramount for $8 billion. Those are like classical consolidations in a shrinking business. Right. This is a checkmate.

And you don't think so? No. I mean, it is, of course. I, you know, I did find, like, the hand ringing over, like, the sanctity of, you know, the DC universes, like, franchising and, like, you know, whatever. What are we going to do with Harry Potter? Well, Warner Brothers is already making another TV show. Listen, and also Universal owns those rights. Like, there are amusement parks. I do, I understand that the IP means, like, money and merchandising and growth potential for Netflix in avenues that it doesn't have now, which then powers whatever else it wants to do, which is keep you watching Netflix on your streaming, on your phone instead of going to movie theaters or watching YouTube. But, you know, again, that's like, what will happen to Batman is not like, it's going to be okay. To me, that's more just thought that's like the noose tightening. moment because the one thing the Netflix couldn't really get over the line was they don't even

have enough properties to consider opening a theme park. Right. And now if they want to open the Netflix theme park that has Batman and Barbie rides on it, they probably, I mean, I guess Batman is licensed right now to Six Flags or whatever, but over time, that is something that they'll be able to do. And then that allows them to become, I guess, like, Disney and 1970s Paramount and 1980s Fox all at the same time. And that's really powerful. Yes. And, and And to, like, a fascinating and somewhat crippling degree for everything else around it. Like, Disney is still Disney. Mm-hmm.

Universal is significantly wounded in the streaming wars, but is still one of the most successful, consistently successful studios in Hollywood and seems to be on fine ground. Sony Lionsgate and Paramount are much smaller now. Much smaller. Sony's had a particularly tricky couple. of years. Lionsgate has fallen way back from the Hunger Games era. Paramount, we'll see. They're going to spend no matter what, but it's going to be a little bit like a ripple in an ocean relative to what it could have been if they are able to come

back and hostily take over this company. And so it's going to feel like Netflix and Disney run everything. And then I guess to a lesser extent, Amazon and Apple as these companies that are participating, but maybe it's not essential or ultimately consequential to their businesses, whether they have success in this realm? That was the case for Sony and Lionsgate, no matter what. You know, no matter who buys Warner Brothers, Lionsgate has been limping along,

and Sony has been relying on its Netflix first deal in order to publish that, you know, it's had some theatrical hits and also gave away K-pop Demon Hunters to Netflix, So, you know, it's bad, but I don't think that this deal, this deal is like reflecting the state of what's going on as opposed to the cause of some of it. I think that's right on the money. Let's talk about theatrical. This is the thing that most meaningfully affects me.

Yeah. And you as well. Well, no, there's one more, actually, that more meaningfully affects you. I have a lot of thoughts about physical media. I do know. I've done my homework on that. We'll talk about it. Well, you've done some of your homework.

I have some questions for you. Okay. Theatrical. Yeah. That was the first thing that Ted Sarandos was pressed on on Friday morning

during a conference call with investors and he had some thoughts. He said, my pushback has been mostly in the fact of the long exclusive windows which we don't really think

are that consumer-friendly. He's referring, of course, to the fact that when films open in theaters, they usually run for Warner Brothers 30, 40 days. 15 years ago, they ran 70, 80,

100 days. 40 years ago, they ran nine months. Okay. Okay, grandpa. They're shrinking. They're shrinking. My point is they're shrinking. They're shrinking.

When I was alive in 1987, a film could play for seven years. And now, 12 days, and then on to Netflix. And, you know, his comments indicate that over time, that is what would happen. It's not confirming the fact that. So this has a very obvious effect, right? Yeah. The effect of this is, if you start making the way, Windows 14 days. So you open a film, you open Batman 2. Matt Reeves is Batman 2.

And it plays for two. My most anticipated probably, he finally finished the script, you know? That's right. Maybe it won't be that film. Maybe it'll be another film in a few years. That movie plays for two weeks. The diehards, of course, go. They go. They see it in Dolby. They see it in IMAX. They see it on 70mm. They see it in 40X. You know, the large premium formats are rolling. But Joe, and Jane moviegoer are like two weeks and then on Netflix. Yeah. The same way they did with Frankenstein, you know, the same way that they did, the same way they are doing with Knives Out, the same way that they are maybe not even doing

with Jay Kelly. And they get in the habit of saying, I'm good, I'll wait, because it's logical to wait. It's logical to not spend $118. Yeah. Carve out a whole night. So Matt Reeves is the Batman, too. an interesting example because this also happened to Matt Reeves

as the Batman 1 and that was because of Project Popcorn and COVID but I, you know, you could see the Batman very soon after it was, you know. It was not day and date. It wasn't day and date, but it was more quickly. It was, you know,

the window was closed and it was more of an experiment in trying to get things to people because of the way that COVID and theaters changed availability. So I know, I don't want to be, I don't agree with Ted Sarandos, but I do think that like, oh, we must protect the windows. The windows are the most important thing.

It's like a lost cause. And I don't think it's productive to pretend like movie theaters are in a good spot and the business is working. and that the customer should bear the responsibility of fixing it. Because it's just like things have changed. And it is so expensive. And it's so often not a good experience. And like the cat is out of the bag. So I do think that Netflix cutting down the window will exacerbate and speed up something

that was already going to happen. And I think it also, my main concern is that it then, if you're making films and deciding what films to make based on the fact that they will have a limited theatrical reaction and then be on Netflix, it changes the type of film that you make. And it changes. How so do you think? We have seen that. Well, you know, I think it changes the type of filmmakers that you give a huge budget to to do a big. act, you know, like a big theatrical run. It's got to have, quote unquote, like event potential, whether it is, you know, Batman and IP or whether it's. A movie that can open really big.

Like a big spectacle, which again, that is already the trend across the studios that we're seeing in films because that is the only way, as we understand that you can get the average person to the movie theater. But I think you just get more polarity, right? We're going to see a test run of this with Greta Gerwig's Narnia film. That will be actually the first proper test because that will have an exclusive limited IMAX theatrical run. And that will indicate maybe somewhat

what the appetite is for that kind of experience, even though you know in three or four weeks it will hit the service. Yeah. And that's also like, we've talked about this a bunch. Like, why is Greta Gourwig making a Narnia movie? I mean, she wants to. And if she wants to, that's great.

And she makes a lot of money. But that is... You know my theory about why. Why? Is that she is consistently exploring her youth and adolescence and her fascinations in those times, which I think is very common for many great filmmakers. Yeah, I do also, but that is, that's quote unquote IP, right? That is, and so that is a filmmaker who I have responded to more, listen, I loved Barbie, but my rankings

are still Lady Bird number one, Little Women number two, by a smidgen, and then Barbie, and then, so you already see, like, beloved independent generational filmmakers moving towards IP, in order to get, like, the big Netflix release as opposed to their smaller budget stuff. Now, that's not to say that the next one, you know, Netflix does have a history of letting filmmakers we really love make their, you know, blank check movies.

Yes. Sometimes those blank check movies aren't as good as the other movies, which is another issue. You know, I thought about this recently. I delivered a tribute to the mid-level studio executive some years ago, not the top studio executive,

The mid-level development executive. Okay. The person who works specifically on movies with filmmakers. Now, these figures are historically maligned. They are people who get in the way of creative people. Don't let them do the things that they want to do. They tend to be surrogates for the audience and what the audience will respond to.

And sometimes they're wrong. And sometimes they're right. And sometimes the friction in that work creates good films. And one thing that you see at Netflix is in a tremendous amount of creative freedom for filmmakers when they're working on these projects. you're describing so much so that I find that sometimes those

films lose their way. There's a lot of discussion like, what were the best Netflix movies over the last seven or eight or nine years? You know, marriage story. There are... Roma. There are good films. There are more good films than that. But... Triple Frontier. But it's not as many

as you would imagine given this carte blanche attitude that they give to artists. Yeah, there's a bunch. There's a bunch. That's four. I got four. Almost one full hit. Just this year, they've made a bunch of good movies. That's true. Or they acquired them in the case of train dreams. Let's say notes are good.

We love notes. Yeah. Within within reason. I mean, I think boundaries historically are good in the movie business. You know, this isn't painting. Like, it is a commercial art form. So. I don't think that we need to be, like, defending executives on this podcast.

I just would like to. I personally would like to distance myself for that. It's another potential outcome, though, of if this, in fact, transpires, that you continue to, like, lose another part of the business that even if it wasn't the most glamorous or interesting or even defensible part of the business did exist and made movies the way that they were for so long. And it's one of the reasons why movies are not the same as they were. So that's one impact.

The other thing about the theatrical aspect of it is is that, you know, Sarandos has had this interesting stretch of kind of contradicting himself, you know, and I don't think it's purposeful. I think there's like an evolution in the business that they're pursuing. For years, they said they wouldn't do live. For years, they said they wouldn't do sports. Yeah. You know, for years they said they wouldn't, they would only do binge drops and they wouldn't

change their release model. For years, they said they wouldn't put anything in theaters. For years, they said they wouldn't do things like IMAX. They do all that stuff now. That's all happening now. So, as I said when we talked about this on the sentimental value episode, it wouldn't stun me if in a year Netflix bought Regal. You know, like that isn't, if the laws were able to change and studios could own it,

there's so much business and money to be made in another Barbie movie, in a Batman movie, there's a lot of money to be made in that business still, even though things have changed and they're not as good as they used to be. Look at Zootopia 2 right now. I mean, $900 million in two weekends. Right. That's incredibly powerful. So there's a world where he once again contradicts himself.

As recently as 2024, he said that he thought that Barbie and Oppenheimer would be as big a phenomenon if they went straight to streaming. That's just a crazy thing to say out loud. You know that you can't trust anything that an executive says at all times in the industry. They are like getting paid more than you to lie to you. Like, that's fine. That's the job. He's paid more than I have.

That's not fair. That's okay. I think that you're right that they have consistently updated their business, you know. And I have wondered, you know, the thing. that we have not really said in this is that movie theaters are not really Netflix's rival at this point. It's YouTube. That's right. And they are just trying to get as many people as possible to look at their streaming service instead of YouTube. Otherwise, their stock goes down and they can't pay back all of the people that invested billions of dollars in them. So

I am beginning to wonder whether, like, there's got to be a ceiling on the number of subscribers that they can reasonably expect. And so once they hit that, they have to keep adding new revenue streams. Yes. So maybe this isn't, you know, a way for them to like start making money, whether it's through amusement parks or through the theatrical. And they just need additional sources of income because they aren't going to be able to keep growing subscriber-wise. In a quiet moment of positivity over the weekend, that is the exact thought that I had, which is it's going to be impossible to go from 300 million subscribers, which they currently have. In addition to tacking on whatever modest incremental bump you're going to get from adding

HBO is 130 million, most of which already have the service. You're not going to get to 700 million subscribers. Like, that's not something that's going to happen. So inevitably, there is a ceiling. There is a plateau moment. And in the past, they've been told that they've plateaued, and then they've gone up again. They've added new items, new offerings. this is like one of the shrewdest entertainment companies

in the history of the human life. Like they truly consistently are like, we have another thing that will help us continue to grow. And this is maybe the biggest step yet. But you're right that they're going to have to find other ways to make money. And movie theaters, at least for now, could be that. I don't think it's like the long-term solution

to the point that you were making before. Like we have been watching this slowly, if not die off, just evolve into a different kind of and much smaller business. I think back to May 2024. I did my like solo into camera thing post Furiosa box office weekend, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was trying to not freak out in that, in that essay.

I was trying to say, let's just keep our head downs and like go see movies. It's a little harder to send that message now to just be like, just keep your head down and just keep, just keep supporting films, keep watching movies. Right. Well, to this audience, to people who have listened this far into a podcast and who care about. films and going to see movies and who are cinephiles, they're not, we're not going to like single-handedly save the business because we're the niche market.

And money can be made off of us, but yeah. Seth Rogen in the studio meme, you know, I'm single-handedly saving movies. But I do think if you care about movies and you like going to movies, sure, keep going to movies. I don't think that's terribly bad advice. What else would you? you save to the aspiring cinephile to help fight, you know, the M&A Raiders?

I mean, you will not win, so don't worry about winning. I think just support the things that you like is obviously the best thing to do. This did have me thinking a little bit sociologically and anthropologically, though, about what Netflix is and how they have gotten to this place. Yeah. And I do think that that's worth exploring a little bit. Because to me, it is really about this soft exploitation of convenience. And the theatrical experience is connected to that.

Because originally, when this company came around, I was very excited because the idea of getting three DVDs of a vast library of films at my home in the mail without having to leave my home and I can keep them for as long as I want, that was an amazing service. It did kill video stores, which is something I cared about, but they were already dying. And this just sped up that process. Likewise, binge watching 12 hours of your favorite show all at once in one night. And you can watch it. And before I had a child, I would comfortably watch six hours of television in a row. I will never do that again. But that was a fascinating thing to get.

I think we're all kind of burnt out on that model now. And Netflix even seems to be a little bit burnt out on that model. But that was another convenience that was extraordinary. I don't have to have not only do I not have commercials, but I don't have to wait. Like, I can just click through to the next episode. And that was convenience. That was an exploitation of something that we didn't even really know we wanted or could have. And they found it.

Yeah. I mean, I think that that is putting a little bit too much responsibility, again, on us as. I think humans are weak, man. I'm weak. Sure, but I think corporations suck. Like, I would still like to blame the corporation rather the human being. Like, what you described for TV. I'm using the word exploitation.

We don't care about, I personally don't care about the art of television. Like, I enjoy it, but it's not, you know, cinema is the art to me. So to me, they just, like, made it a better experience until they didn't, you know? It's like, if they made a good show that was easier to watch, I was like, great. That sounds really. The Crown, loving it, you know, at least the first five seasons. Don't know what happened in season six. Okay.

I mean, it just, it was really, they caught up with the modern times. I'll never know. But they just, they made the customer experience better. Like, and I think that trying to, I think ignoring that does not, is part of the problem. It's not going to help us get people back to what we want. I think it's reasonable to ask the question, do they make the customer, experience for movies better, though, because they did, they dramatically increase the convenience of movie delivery for new films. And, you know, like, Ava DuVaroni talked about this a lot

in the first half of the huge Netflix rise. She talked a lot about how in a lot of communities in America, they're just are not movie theaters. Or there's not a convenient way to get to a movie theater or an affordable way to get to a movie theater. And so a studio like Netflix that prizes coming to streaming first for, you know, you know, X dollars per month, is a way to just deliver more art more cheaply and more easily to a lot more people. I think we have a lot of listeners who feel that way. Yeah.

That, and it's not because they prefer watching a movie at home. It's because it's a lot harder to see a lot of these titles. You know, smaller things, train dreams is a great example, which would be like a very small windowed, limited release if it were Sony Pictures class. and instead is available to everyone. It's true. The knock on effect of that is that you, sure, you didn't drive to the movie theater and pay $72, plus parking, plus get a sitter, plus your craft cocktail and your caramel popcorn to check out what you hope is not a shitty Ryan Reynolds movie. Yeah.

But then you just get to watch the shitty Ryan Reynolds movie on Netflix at home. but the lack of experience and the sedentary quality of watching things at home. Yeah. It minimizes its emotional impact. You just yada yadaed like $150 to $200, though, which is like an incredibly material part of this. Like it is wildly expensive to go to the movies. I cannot believe how much a bucket of popcorn costs. But this is not like a public trust.

It's a hobby. Like if you want to participate in the hobby, it costs money. Like it's as simple as that. Yeah, but it costs $20. $25 for a Netflix subscription versus $200 a pop? Yeah, you're making my point. This is the soft exploitation of convenience. That's what it is.

It's also just, it's economics. People don't have $200 to go to it. It's so, it's crazy how expensive it is. I totally understand. And the more, like, the more convenient or the more affordable Netflix got, like the more expensive movies have gotten. Like, what kind of business is that? Like here, now your water is $12.

Like, it's, you know, I understand. There are a lot of things at play, but it's really, really. really, really expensive. And so are groceries and so are a lot of other things. And it's just like, it is a bad business. They can't get out of like their leases. Like they can't get out of their lot of stuff. But you really cannot discount it. It is fucking expensive. I agree. I'm not disagree. You're making my point for me. I'm not disagreeing with you. But like, I don't think that's like exploiting convenience. I think that's just like a reality of, you know. Of course it is. What do you mean? I think that's condescending. I think that

that's because people, like, don't have that much money. I think you're misunderstanding how systems work then. Like, to me, this is what every smart business does, is that they come in and they look at what people don't have and they try to give them what they want for less money than they think. The thing is, if a deal like this goes through, let's check in on what a Netflix subscription costs in five years. Sure. Because it won't be what it costs right now.

And over time, they will continue to shift the financials to make this like cable television was 10, 20 years ago when you would wake up one day and open up your cable TV bill and it was $250. And I remember that being incredibly bracing for my parents and they were like,

when did this happen and how did this happen? And all of a sudden it became, well, you have the standard package and you have the movie package and all you need broadband Wi-Fi and also we have this additional channel that you might want and there's an upsell there for $1299.

This is what will happen. This is the way that they like essentially reconnect the revenue stream over time. That's true. And that's true of every single Silicon Valley business model where they give you something very cheaply and then they ratchet the price of overtime. I just don't think that you can like the movie theaters have not responded in any meaningful way. And I like it's not defensible to ask people to spend $200 to go to go. Like it's just that's fine. It can be a hobby for some people, but that's not viable. I agree with you. I'm not, I'm not disagree. I mean, the thing is that there are still a lot of people who are willing to go. It's just that they're not willing to go 30 times a year. They're willing to go five. times a year. And so I don't know if there's a way where the business itself can kind of reorient where that is allowable, you know, like we're... Yeah, yeah, yeah. To your point about like leases and this like established economy of multiplexes. Right. That thing that grew over time from

1985 through 2005, that is not manageable. And so I do think you'll see like a knock on effect over time if Netflix goes through. If Paramount doesn't go through, it's kind of interesting, like what happens to theatrical because Paramount will start making, even though they'll make fewer movies when they were two separate studios. Right. Their focus is going to be on theatrical. You know, that's, that, you know, pumping up Paramount Plus and making theatrical work is kind of a core part of the business.

It is the core part of the business. Yeah. Whether or not they can be successful at that, like maybe that actually augurs even more failure in the theatrical business if their movies don't work. We don't know. There's not a ton of history of Skydance having great taste beyond Tom Cruise movies. That's true. And even those are it's really, you know, Top Gun Maverick, they sat on it.

They would not release it during the pandemic. They were right in that one. And then every single mission and Impossible Sense has been sort of soft and has lost its IMAX screens pretty quickly to another big name director. Yeah. So you could make the case that if Netflix is true to their word, which is that they're going to keep Warner Brothers Film Studio as a separate and distinct business and release their movies in theaters for, let's say 10 years. I'm not saying they're going to do that, but let's just say for the sake of conversation. that that could be a better outcome. There's a case that that's a better outcome from a pure film-going experience.

Sure. But then the world's on fire in many other ways because what it means of who owns both movie studios and then CNN and everything else. So in the hostile takeover bid, David Ellison and family corralled the Saudis, the Qataris, Emirates, and Jared Kushner's. hedge fund to chip in money for over $100 billion hostile takeover bid. Getting a strong thumbs down. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to distract you. I was just going to go to thumbs down. So who have you called to raise money?

To be a part of the hostel bid or for my own? You're independent on bid. Do you feel that you are more of a merger or an acquisition? Just, you know. A merger or an acquisition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just spiritually. I think we'd all like to be an acquisition and we are all a merger, you know, unless you really can be an acquirer, then you're a merger.

I called business, Chris Ryan, and we're just going to start our own network and live stream movie studio where we release the new Geese albums and then analyze what's going on with the various funds on a real-time basis. Okay, that sounds like a good show. Yeah. But it'll also be in IMAX. Yeah. I don't, I. The ideal outcome remains what we said a few weeks ago, which is some person emerges from the shadows, some sent a billionaire. Sure.

And says, I have made my billions in shipping. And I love film. And I want film to continue on in just the way it did. And I don't think that it should be subject to tariffs at the ports. Yeah, that's a whole other story. And that person needs to be cozied up to the Trump administration, but also very agreeable to us politically. So this magical, impossible person will come along, and that's just not going to happen. Okay.

I don't know. Can you run it out until no, this deal has to close before 2028, right? It does because there is, well, there is a $5 billion penalty for Netflix if after two and a half years plus six months the deal doesn't close, which is right up to the nose. I think there's like a six-month waiting period that's. indicated in the deal offer from Netflix. But, you know, $5 billion is an insane penalty. But I actually think that Netflix is really smart. And the reason why I said it was a win-win earlier is because, yeah, sure, maybe they

get this. Maybe they get this. And they end the streaming wars officially, right? They rise to victory. They slowly take over the movie watching experience in America. Or maybe they don't. Maybe they do end up paying the penalty, but two and a half to three years go by. And Warner Brothers exist in this.

Kind of amber. Yeah, where they're making their movies and everything that's been greenlit and everything that's franchised and safe is going forward. But Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi are not authorized to fund one battle after another. And maybe they can't make a deal that Ryan Coogler has an ownership stake in sinners after 25 years because there's going to be an acquisition. And that goes against a precedent that's expected for their future owner. Maybe they don't look to acquire or merge with another company.

That could be a better situation six to 12 months from now because they're in this holding pattern of evaluation by the government and other corporations. So it kind of just kneecaps WB for a while. Yeah. I mean, WB has already kneecapped itself. But look at what it did at the movies this year, you know? I do understand that they're doing, yeah.

They were able to at least take risks because they were independent. Right. And say what you want about David Zazlov. I don't think he's done a very good job at all. He's the, you know, the high commander of the Christmas adventurers himself, Southwest Division. Very much so. And but, but he did hire Mike and Pam and they did make those movies, you know, and like, and he, he kept Casey Blois in his job and HBO continues to be great.

Like, they continue to be HBO, despite everything that's fucking happened over the last 20 years, it's still like, yeah, we got task, we got chair company. We still are making the coolest shows. That's true. Creatively, the output has been positive, but then he has driven. the financials that make the creative possible off a cliff while paying himself a tremendous amount of money. A lot of the advantage has been pivoted in his direction. There's some speculation over the last few days, specifically, that he has been lobbying

for a role in whatever new company takes on his business, and that that could be a factor. That is just something that I have heard and can either confirm nor deny. The HBO part very quickly, since we are neither experts nor are we the TV podcast. But it is interesting because I don't really. understand the idea of keeping those businesses separate? And we've heard that as well, that HBO would be its own entity. Right. So, so, why would you want to bounce around from one streaming service to another? Would HBO just become a tile inside of Netflix? I think there's been a lot of discussion recently about how Amazon uses the tiles for all the other streaming services.

Yeah. And that's been a boon to their business. Okay. And, you know, another revenue stream. Like, how many. So it would be an add-on? I think so. Yeah. I get you more money to the point I was making about, you know, the bump and subscription rate. But I wonder, do you think it will tilt Netflix's programming strategy towards more like basic cable style? Like more reality, more sports, more TV? Well, it's already tilted that way.

It is, but like, do you need adolescence on Netflix if you have HBO? Because you're not, those two companies are no longer bidding against each other for the property. So, well, anything that is quote unquote good. Will Department Q go on Netflix? Or will it? I think, I mean, I do wonder whether HBO gets like slightly more breadth. I mean, their mandate. And remember when they were also in charge of making the Max shows,

tech slides of college girls, never forget, had a great time. Pauline Chalemay. Sure, but so their breadth of programming has shifted depending on who's in charge and what they're programming for. And I, you know, I believe in Casey Boyce's ability to maneuver appropriately. I do as well. More podcasts on the, on the platform, you think? I don't even get me started.

Let's talk about physical media. I'd love to. Um, okay. Okay. I'm fine. Good. I'm fine. Okay.

I'm going to lay it out for you. Yes. Netflix does not have a physical media operation. I'm aware. They have licensed a select handful of titles to the Criterion Collection. Okay. That's it. Okay.

That's it. This flies completely in the face of their primary business model. Right. Which is streaming. Right. So. Well, their current primary business model, because once upon a time, their business model, as you noted, was letting you keep three DVDs in your house for as long as possible. Yes.

Distributing but not producing physical media. Five years ago, a company was formed called Studio Distribution Services. Are you familiar with this company? I read your outline. Okay. Okay. So it's an American home entertainment company that's co-owned 50-50 between Universal and Warner Brothers. Okay. This is the company that produces all the discs and distributes all the discs for those two studios.

In recent years, they've also brought on other partners. Sony now works with SDS. Neon now works with SDS. Shout Factory, which is one of the very best American distributors. Your beautiful bringing on 4K was made by Shout Factory. Did Shout Factory also do the five hours of trailers? No. Oh, who is that?

That's Fun City Editions. Oh, okay. That's a much smaller company, but also very good. Anyway, the Shout Factory also just completely, they close their own website, and they now use the distribution services website groove.com that SDS owns. A lot of the American production of major studio, Blu-ray, and 4Ks is going to SDS. 50% of it is owned by Warner Brothers. So the question here is, will that continue? Warner Brothers and Universal has a 10-year agreement to do this.

together. When does it expire? In 2030. Okay. So you can make the case that maybe they just run it out until the completion of this deal. Yeah. You can make the case that this is a new business model for Netflix as well. I have thought about that. As I said to you when this was first announced and you said, oh no, what about my Blu-rays? You know, they do have a history of merchandising in other areas. Megan Markle has a jam and homewares company that is underwritten entirely by Netflix. When you order the jam, it says produced by, and then it's the literal, it's the sunset boulevard address of Netflix.

Like, they are making these. There are stranger things, you know, sweatshirts and Furbys and whatever. At the Egyptian next door, the Egyptian theater in Los Angeles, there is a Netflix store where you can buy their gear. Exactly. So they are making things too. be sold. So there's no reason to say that if it

could be a financial boon to them, that they would like be against it. And I do think that they are in need of money. I agree with you. But it does undercut,

I know. They just, they want you on your phone. It's not just that, though. There's one other component of this that I think isn't notable in terms

of what this deal means. Part of the reason why Netflix doesn't like theaters or want theaters is because they have to share money with theaters. The Warner Brothers deal is a way to continue to centralize and kind of like significantly close the loop on who gets to participate in the revenue generated by Netflix. Warner Brothers has to split 50-50 or 60-40 on most movies that go into movie theaters. If you

don't go to a movie theaters, you keep all the profits for yourself in terms of the revenue generated by the memberships and subscriptions. Blue Rays, likewise, if this is a company that has owned 50-50, I don't know what the dynamics are between who gets what money from what Blu-ray production, but this is another partner. They're closing all deals on partners. They're no longer going to be licensing any of the content from Warner Brothers because they're going to own it. Like, over time, they're not going to need to license very much at all if they have Warner

Brothers. So it does make me a little bit skeptical. Though they may then keep licensing out, the Warner Brothers stuff. That's been in discussion. Right? Yes, that's an open question whether or not they would then license their content to other companies. they've never done that before

you can't watch a Netflix show on any other service right now as far as I know and so that would be a change as well we're talking about a world where like a lot of changes if no changes happen if it's just like

everything's going under Netflix and there's no more movies going into movie theaters I'm going to freak out I actually am going to freak out sure I like I will too it will be in a different way

but you know that would suck yeah I will go walk into the desert That would really suck. I mean, my question for you about physical media is less about your ability to have steel books in your garage and more about what those smaller labels do in terms of preservation and things that have historically been buried in libraries and archives being available and how that works long terms. Like, you can't, to your point, you can't get a Netflix movie. anywhere like for many other service you also like can't rent it from the library right well i'll use an example it's not they're not on canopy i'll use an example from the the unboxing boy

video that it came out over the weekend one of the one of the items that um eileen got for me was a new leaf and like a beautiful edition of a lane may's a new leaf it's a 4k of the movie which had not previously been available in that format it was released by a company called cinematograph which is a subsidiary of vinegar syndrome which is one of the biggest independent distributors of blu-rays A New Leaf was licensed from Paramount. Let's say a New Leaf was a Warner Brothers movie. Right. My gut tells me, Cinematograph would not have rights to license that title.

And I don't know who is responsible for restoring and now preserving the 4K upgrade of the movie. But is Netflix going to care about that? Is that the kind of work that they're going to do? Warner Brothers in particular has Warner Archive, which is arguably the best just kind of like historical churn-em-out system that we have They'll just like look at the list of films that they've made, the hundreds and hundreds of movies that they've made over the last hundred years. And they'll be like, what about this cowboy movie from 1939? This is kind of, this is of note. People will want to own this and they'll produce a version of it.

Maybe they only sell 500 copies, but there are, just go to Warner Archive.com and look at everything that they've made. Related, except for Steelbooks, Warner Brothers also has Turner Classic movies. Yes. Which, according to Deadline, is going to be a part of the Warner Brothers Netflix. That I Google this morning. Is that the sole channel that would be moving over? As opposed to the discovery. So that's another tile, essentially, on Netflix.

I guess so. But, you know, that is currently a television network and, you know, festival and program that does a lot of surfacing of the amazing Warner Brothers catalog and history and programming. that will now be under the control of Netflix. So how and what will they do? What is their commitment to, you know, preservation and historical programming? Yeah. It's funny. That experience actually always, I think, made more sense to people on television.

Like Paul Thomas Sanders, Paul talks about how it's always on in his house that you just go into his house. It's just TCM all the time. Whereas, like, it's actually hard to get people to press play on an old movie. Like a black and white movie on streaming. I mean, it's the old saw about you're just clicking through Netflix for 20 minutes because you can't pick what to actually watch. But TCM just press play for you. And I was like, no, check this out.

What about this old cowboy movie from the something? What about, you know, X, Y, Z? Yeah. So. The truth is is that we just don't know with physical media. And I don't want to. There is an optimistic look at it. There is a way to say, well, this company exists.

They're not going to disband it because of this agreement that they have. the work that they're doing right now is pretty cool like stuff is on sale all the time on groove.com like it's not it's actually more affordable than going to a movie it's like F1 is like 1199 to own on 4K forever that's part of my point of this is like if like a if a plane hits a server somewhere and knocks out everything that's backed up

on Netflix like you we might lose stuff like we might lose stuff in perpetuity I get it I like it In the larger, like, Library of Alexandria sense, I get it. Again, like your ability to buy plastic is, like, they're... I'm not buying plastic. I'm buying movies. They're connected.

They're connected, but, you know, that I... And I understand that you drive the market that then enables film preservation long term. Like, I do, sure, but you are also just, like, doing your own version of ethical consumption over capitalism. And it's fine. Yeah. I like buying stuff, too, you know? Yeah, but what I am doing contributes to artists and has emotional utility. Okay, that's great.

I also contribute to artists. They're just, you know. Such as teacup makers. No one has gotten me that teacup yet. Okay, let's do like a brass tax closing on this discussion because this has been robust. Okay. Do you think this is actually going to happen? Do you think Netflix is going to buy Warner Brothers Discovery?

I have no idea. Okay. What do you want to make a call? I mean, I guess not. Okay. They've tried a lot of, they've tried to buy a lot of different things over the years. You know, I'd heard they wanted to be the kings of video games or whatever. Yes.

They try to get me to play a game every time I open that app. That didn't really work. So far, struck out. So I think both from like a historical, they've tried a lot of things. It's obviously pretty legally tricky. No one, but David Zazloff and Ted Sarandos seem excited about this. And I guess Ted Sarandos is lieutenants. Yeah.

Um, so you then have to wonder, will, would people want to even work there? Not in the employee sense, but filmmakers. I have thought about that a little bit. It's really hard to say, because there's going to be only a couple of games in town at this point. Yeah. So, and Netflix, too, its credit, by dint of that freedom and budget, has been able to draw in the best filmmakers alive. Like, they've really had very little trouble.

There's a handful of people. Now, we did hear that the DGA issued a note. about their concern over this. And I have seen people speculate like if Christopher Nolan kind of rallied the troops and they really dug their heels on the ground,

which is not something that DGA historically does. But if they did, that would be interesting to watch the outcome of that because Chris Nolan does not want to be on Netflix. No, absolutely not.

That's not something he wants. De Niedon Neville does not want to be on Netflix. Like there are filmmakers. I think he's got to be real mad about... Well, he's making James Bond. Sure. For Amazon. He's off to elsewhere.

Sure. They'll go on Netflix eventually, but they don't want to be on Netflix to start. And that feels, that's not going to change the deal, but it's going to change what you're describing, which is like a certain band of artists. We'll be like, we don't work with those guys. Sure.

We'll see. Sure. And on the other hand, or maybe on the same hand, to quote one of our favorite films, like, never underestimate a motivated, angry rich person or a motivated angry, you know, son of a rich person. I, it, they seem. That's what I think's going to happen. They came ready to play. I think it's going to be paramount.

Yeah. I think it's going to take two and a half to three years, but I do think it's going to be paramount. Okay, great. Well, I think we'll have a lovely time. Yeah. They can afford to wait it out. It's going to be messy. Yeah.

I promise to not make this show a weekly update on this story. I promise. That sounds great. I did think that this conversation was necessary. I'm actually going back to business school so that I can do like my weekly case studies here. That'll be my homework, direct to camera. Yeah. I think no matter what Netflix has done something very smart for them.

Yeah. You know, that this move, whether it handicaps Warner Brothers in some way or puts Paramount in a state of tremendous disrepair and puts them in thrall to all of their partners in a way, which is a whole other domino effect that we can talk about down the road. It keeps them in pole position in a fascinating way. And I guess we'll continue following the story. Can I close with my strong take about this? Yeah, which I agree with what?

I do, and I'm going to go further, but you start. Yeah. Even though I would not be happy with the Netflix outcome, this isn't really Netflix's fault. This is the fault of every major studio over the last 25 years that has thrown itself in with globalization in the movie business. And roughly mid-90s, late 90s, when there was this. dawning realization that international box office could be more profitable and more valuable to the company at large, largely corporately held, than domestic box office, you saw a dramatic shift in the kinds of movies that were being made and the focus. And over that 30-year period,

more franchises or recognizable IP, more figures who could play overseas, more films that are less dependent on people and more dependent on concept. And so we have witnessed the ultimate consequence of chasing more dollars in favor of the stability of what movie making is meant to represent. Now, you could make the case that that's just the evolution of any art form in any business, but there was an alternative path here. I mean, I agree. And I would just go further and say, you know, we live in hell.

And the rapacious need for growth in every industry, unrelenting forever and ever, is decimating all of our institutions and our way of life. Yes. I hope this is not perceived as an ethnocentric take that American movies should stay American. That isn't my point. My point is that only certain kinds of movies will play all over the world

and generate several billion dollars in revenue and that that changed what movies were. So whenever we whinge about what happened to comedies, what happened to mid-tier dramas, why aren't there movies for adults, all that stuff? That shit doesn't play overseas. That's why they don't get made. The reason why rom-coms work on Netflix is because Netflix has filled that gap in terms of consumption.

People still want those movies. They just don't want them around the world in the exact same way. And that is the thing that desecrated the moviegoing experience. It's not the money. It's not how much it costs. It's not even the convenience machine that Netflix built that we're talking about here. It was the desire to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow for 30-plus years and essentially spiking in its own end zone. And to have to keep growing.

even now. Part of this is happening because Netflix has grown and grown and grown and grown. And so is YouTube. And so is Amazon and so is TikTok. And they just have to keep getting more, more, more, more, more. And it's not going to end. And there's no one who's going to come in and say like, hey, guys, too much growth. That doesn't exist. That's not. There's no case for that. There's no logical world in which someone would have the power. Then you're talking about government regulation around something like that. And we don't really do that in our country. No. and your roots better with Ancestry DNA. Want to know where your family comes from in northern France? Maybe you'd like to see how your genes influence certain traits like diet, fitness, and allergies. There's so much of you and your heritage to discover.

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Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. So that's our thrilling conclusion to that discussion. Yeah, I'll look great. I'm really excited for the world we're handing to our children. which is a great segue to the leader of the Golden Globes nominations. That's right. Look at me. Thank you. Thanks so much.

Well done. Thank you. It's going to be one battle after another this award season, literally and figuratively. Let's talk briefly or maybe not so briefly about the Golden Globe nominations. So the Golden Globes are pointless. They have nominated all of the cool and good movies. Yeah. And none of the bad and lame movies.

True. And they are looking more and more like the Academy Awards has looked in recent years. They're increasingly international. Yeah. They're identifying great works by O'Tours. They've kind of rung out a lot of the cronyism in their organization over time. There's a new form of cronyism perhaps in place, but the old HFPA is gone. The HFPA that nominated Deadpool in Best Comedy or Musical is no longer around.

This is a very different organization. Yeah. Since their remake and their relaunch, they have just been clinging to the coattails of every single awards block and just trying not to ruffle any feathers. Yes, exactly. And there is like, you know, every once in a while it kicks in with like, we really got to have Kate Hudson here at the end. And I'm happy for Kate Hudson. She's been doing karaoke. in order to promote a film that I can't remember the name of.

Song, song, sung blue. Sure. Have you seen it? Not yet. Okay. That's exciting. And I think I have to go see Anaconda, so I can't, I will have to wait on that one. Why not both? Because I have a job and children.

But, yeah, it's predictable. And just an excuse to get people in a room two months early. And it's sort of, it's like, it's just like a welcome party. Well, I mean, some of this is the cynical what's good for show content stuff. And some of it is what is the purpose of this show. And I think that both things, both of those quagmires are true for us, where the Golden Globes are ridiculous. They've always been historically ridiculous. You know, it's a shadowy group of people whose names we don't really know.

We don't really know like what they're really affiliated with and what they do every day. And they make these choices about what they think are their favorite movies. You know, the same could probably be said for the Los Angeles Film Critics Association, which just voted over the weekend or the Big Pictures top five episodes of the year or even the Academy Awards, you know. I think everyone knows what I do all day, but that's fine. They do. You buy teacups. Still, part of what made it fun was that they would be like, yeah, Jared Leto and the little things, we think you deserve to be honored. That was a good idea.

And we don't get that anymore. We get this like very respectable collection of nominees. Let's talk about the nominees to this point, okay? So you mentioned one battle after another. It received nine nominations. It's nominated in every major category that it was eligible in. That's true. The only snub you could argue is Regina Hall, which I don't even think is a snub at this point.

Well, sure, but they've got six spots in supporting actress. Yes. But no room for Regina Hall. No. But picture, director, screenplay, actor, two people in supporting actor, supporting actress. For Tiana Taylor, yes. Yeah. Score.

Like on down the line. This has been the movie of the season. It will continue to be the movie of the season. It is dominant here. The second most dominant movie in terms of the number of nominations was sentimental value. Were you surprised by this? I was. Though I guess they're embracing international.

As you noted, it's a very international mix. Five non-English language features represented in the 12 total best picture nominees among drama and comedy or musical. Right, which I was surprised by it. I think even a few weeks ago, even maybe on our last best picture power rankings, it had not felt that the international features, there wasn't a pop favorite, like Anatomy of a Fall, say, however many years ago, or Parasite. And I think that's changing a little bit as we, as the releases widen. And I think it was just an accident has really had its moment, both through all the awards bodies and wide release and Jafar Pannahi's sentencing. so, you know, I think that, like, it's starting. And maybe we were just a little, or I was a little too soon on that.

But sentimental value, it had been waning. And that's not just me talking. I wonder if this is going to be impactful or not, because four acting nominations, Yil Kim Trier has two nominations here, including in Best Director, where he pushed out some other people who were competing. And I don't know if this movie is win competitive, again, against, you know, a hamlet or a sinners, but we'll see. So in addition to the six nominees in every category, which, as you've written in the document, is weak, you know, make choices.

It's pathetic. Right. We're also, we have two categories. We have best drama and then best musical or comedy. And I am not one to care about category fraud, and I don't think there any is such thing. at the Golden Globes, but this is, it's confusing right now. One battle is running in comedy, but Sinners, which has many musical elements, is running in drama. They should be flipped.

Yeah, and, I mean, there are other, it's, so Sinners is up against Hamnet, sentimental value is also in drama. Something else is in comedy, that, or musical, that to me seems. I mean, Newville Vogue is in musical or comedy. Well, sure, but that's just, you know, I'm happy for Richard. Linklater? I am too. Blue Moon and New Valvag? Wonderful. I couldn't think of another time

where a filmmaker was nominated twice in the same best picture category at the Golden Globes. I'm sure it's happened but I couldn't think of an example. Was Aaron Brockovich in traffic?

But I think Brockovich was probably comedy. That's obviously also the only one that we can think of. What a time for Stephen. Yeah. That's really interesting. I'm very happy for Richard Linklater. I'm very happy for Ethan Hawke for Blue Moon.

I think that those are wonderful nominations. The new Velvog went through me for a loop a little bit. I did not see that coming. Also, at the expense of Jay Kelly, which was not in Best Musical or Comedy. Very notable. George Clooney and Adam Sandler did get nominations. They did. Well, you could make the case that this was really at the expense of Wicked for Good.

Well, yeah, sure. And Wicked for Good is not in Best Musical or Comedy. That's big news. Yeah. We talked about it. We took it out of our last power rankings. I thought that it would get one of the two extra spots in musical or comedy. and it did not.

So that's... You saw it's been sinking like a stone at the box office too. Yeah, of course. People are not feeling it. They're not really enjoying that movie. But Gonia gets a big boost.

Sure. Three nominations. It gets in comedy. It gets Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone. That's another one where like, yes, technically. I mean, it is very funny. I laughed a lot, but... Yes.

Debatable how funny or painful it is. Both House of Dynamite and Wake Up Dead Man completely shut out. Right. And as you mentioned, No J. Kelly in Best Comedy. Hammett's got six nominations. Sure.

Which is pretty much exactly what it needs to do. Yeah. Turn it along. Thursday. We're going to talk about it. I am going to see it in an hour and 20 minutes. That's an 11 a.m. Monday, Hamid screening. Very, very cool.

After Golden Globe nominations and the death of cinema. Okay. Well, not according to you and Chloe Zhao, who was also nominated for Best Director for her work on that film, as were Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskell and Max Richter for his. score. Avatar Fire and Ash. Yeah. It received a achievement in cinematic and box office and cinematic achievement?

Yes, it is. Yes, cinematic and box office. It's cinematic first, but then also the box office, which we should know, Wicked for Good also did. They're relegated to the blockbuster country. My beloved F1. Sure. And K-pop Demon Hunters.

Yeah, yeah. Which is how you know that cinematic is first before box office. Yes, cinema is back. Yeah. Thanks to K-pop Demon Hunters. Yeah, the acting... So let's talk about the song just briefly, which is like Wicked.

The two new Wicked songs got nominated and only Golden. Shameful. Justice for Soda Pop. To me, it would be what it sounds like. Okay. That is my daughter's favorite song. That's the song I'm most familiar with.

I think there's a case for takedown, for strategy. There's a lot of jams. Free. Yeah. You know, a lot of bangers on K-pop Demon Hunters. Right. Popperino is one best animated feature at the New York Film Critics Circle. Isn't that amazing?

It's wonderful. So strange. Okay. I was sort of surprised it didn't make it into Best Musical or Comedy, if they really wanted to throw some, you know. They're not really interested in appealing to the pop sensibility here. Like, it's just not that this, this is the worst. Well, they are in cinematic and box office achievement. I know.

Just junk that. It's just such a waste of time. Nobody cares. Let's talk about the kind of broad picture of acting nominees. I think the leading contenders are stuff. the leading contenders, right? You're Chalemays and Leos, you're Jesse Buckley's. Like, those people, nothing has really changed there.

No shocking surprises. But because you've got 12 lead nominees in actor and actress, you've got like Jeremy Allen White, Julia Roberts, Oscar Isaac, Tessa Thompson. I don't really think these people are very nomination competitive at the Academy Awards, but they're going to be nominated here. Yeah. I'm happy for Tessa Thompson. Nina Haas was not recognized in supporting.

I was just doing my best performances of the year list. Yeah, and it's, but that's because you get, you only get, um, one supporting category for both drama and musical comedy. Tesla Thompson was in HEDA, which we have not discussed on this show, but probably will come up before the years over. Is that coming out sometime soon? HEDA, it's on Amazon Prime right now. Okay. Yeah.

And you both have seen it? We have, yeah. Five words or less. An interesting adaptation that doesn't quite get there. Okay. Nina Haas was good. You mentioned Emily Blunt Is in supporting actress

That's, you know Glove's got a globe Every once in a while, you know She was in the smashing machine Which so many people have seen The supporting nominations There's only six total For actor and actress

Those feel to me very close To where we're going to end up With the Oscars Not a single sinner's supporting nominee Which to me is the one And, you know, oversight is probably the most generous term that I could give for it. But also, you know, you do wonder whether a Delroy Lindo or a Winemusaka will, who have been showing up at some of the other awards situations. Yeah, I think that they're going to campaign very hard as well.

So it'll be interesting to see what shakes out there. I mentioned that Ethan Hawke is in for Blue Moon for Best Actor, which is wonderful. Yeah, Blue Moon also in Best Comedy or Musical, which is lovely. Yes, it's great. Roseburn also now like Kind of in pole position Yeah Is that the right use of the term pole position

That would make her in first place I would still say Jesse Buckley is very much In pole position Sure But she's she hasn't won any She's won like one awards You know one like critics association This is kind of like an elevated critics prize now

You know it's a critics prize with a proper telecast And so I don't know Let's talk about the studio breakdown Okay I thought this was interesting Neon has four nominations. Sure.

Well, international. No, they have all four of the major can contenders. Netflix has two. Warner Brothers has two. Focus has two. A-24 has one. Marty Supreme. Are you going to the drop today in Los Angeles?

Is there a drop? Yeah, it's on Western Avenue at 4 p.m. Clearly, I'm not going to the drop. You are going to the drop? I have a preschool parent-teacher conference, so I'm not able. Very cool. A different kind of drop. Right.

Yeah. An information drop. Sure. No, I'm not going. I saw Marty Supreme for a second time last night. I'm very jealous, but not at the Ben Affleck screening. I know. Who did not invite me to the Ben Affleck hosted Marty Supreme? Yes. What do I had to do?

Did he interview Josh Saffty and Ronald Bronstein? Was that what it was? I saw a picture of Ben and Josh. Oh, nice. And I saw a quote that said Ben Affleck described it as the best movie ever made. Really? That's according to my friend's Instagram. So, you know, but I trust.

I mean, it is an amazing movie. Second time was better. We'll get into that. I mean, I really, I'm really sorry that I can't go be with the guy. Jack, you're going to go to the drop this afternoon? I just. I do have a pitch. That's exciting.

I have a pitch, though, for, you know, because they've been doing the jacket campaign, like the greats. Yeah. You know, and it's been like Misty Copeland, Tom Brady, which I know you have feelings about, Bill and I, the science guy. Fucking Tom Brady. Michael Phelps. But so then imagine me. Anybody not washed? As the greatest mommy.

And it'll be me in the jacket and my Velcro rollers doing magnetiles with my kids because you can have it all in the world of Marty Supreme. I just want them to think about it. My version of that will be a live capture of my Blu-ray shelves while I'm wearing the jacket. And I'll just be rearranging and be like, oh, actually, no, the fury comes after the Palma's obsessions. So I got to make sure that those are in chronological order. And then I will be the greatest at organizing Blu-Rays. You'll be the greatest archivist and not be the greatest mommy. That's great.

Okay. Other good surprises. Yeah. Li Biong, Hun, from no other choice getting in. No other choice getting in at Best Musical or Comedy. I'm excited. That's crazy. It is very funny.

I guess it is technically in a draft. We would allow it as a comedy. Oh, it's definitely a comedy. Yeah, it is a comedy. It's a satirical comedy. Yeah, but, you know, it is also very violent and dramatic. Yeah, and I think that's actually, even though I agree with you about the sinners in one battle thing and that there's something dishonest maybe about how they've been navigated around one another. It's the Golden Globes.

It is the Golden Globes. But a movie like that, I mean, you know, I just put it on my top five list. And I did it in part because I was like, I feel like this is, it's falling away a little bit. And, you know, the park super fans will get into it and they'll love it, but it's not going to really be contending. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. You know, if Wicked for Good

and Avatar are actually out at the Academy Awards, it could get in. That'd be great. Okay. Ava Victor, nominated for Best Actress. Never would have predicted that.

I mean, fascinating. Yeah, love that movie. That movie is definitely still competing for Best Original Screenplay at the Academy Awards. I don't know if Ava Victor is competing for Best Actress

at the Academy Awards. It is an expanded field at the Golden Globes. But, I mean, screenplays the coolest award, so. It is the coolest award. especially original screenplay That's where you don't want to win Kong Ding Ray was nominated for best score for Sarat

Have you seen Sarat? No, and it's getting spoiled. I have it on DVD or Blu-ray at home. Oh, really? Yeah, because I got the neon box over the weekend where they very kindly send to critics, some critics, a box set of every film that they've released.

I borrowed it from you for many years. Okay, well, I'll borrow it. Sarat, fascinating movie. I'd love to be able to talk with you about it. I don't... I just, It was a very limited qualifying run in LA at the Burbank 16, which I love,

but I just couldn't get there. I don't know when it'll come to streaming, but I recommend it with some with some reservations. Okay. I mean, I'm, knowing what I know I'm ready. Okay. So the score, the score that's nominated. Yeah.

I mean, I don't even know where this came from. This is a real, this is the, by far, to me, the most outlandish pick. So the film is set in, in a desert landscape, in rave culture Yeah And the music is the score is

Primarily Electronic rave music And it's really good and effective in the film Like it really gives the film a heartbeat Yeah And an energy But I don't This over Marty Supreme is crazy to me

Like crazy I again I haven't seen Surrap But yes Marty Supreme is Maybe the score of the year It's incredible Yeah Having just seen it again last night Listen, yeah

If it doesn't get in at the Oscars I'm going to be baffled Yeah, well they didn't do challengers last year So it's a very good point But to be honest The Surrott score is more like challengers Too little too late What other snubs?

No Billy Cruttop Yeah, we're talking about Jay Kelly later this week Yeah There had been a lot of like Hey actually what if it's crud up over Sandler But Sandler got in Crudup did not

No train dreams in drama Yeah What does that mean? But Joel Edgerton, yes Well, I just They allotted two Netflix spots And they went to Newvel Vogue and

Frankenstein As opposed to Jay Kelly and train dreams Yeah Who can say? Five nominations for Frankenstein Including Lordy Oscar Isaac And Best Director for Guillermo del Toro but not best screenplay

Notable Yes I think Del Toro today I'm asking you today Is getting into Best Director at the Academy Awards People love him You know

Yes or no Well Yes Okay If that happens I think what has happened here Will also happen Which is that Josh

Thafty was not In Best Director here And that would be the case I'm I think I think people I was at a sag screening From Marty Supreme

West Lane And people were like fucking A, man. This is it. It's incredible. So I think that there's going to be a strong wave. But, you know, Josh Safdi was at a DGA screening with Ben Affleck, who is also famously not nominated for Best Director when he won Best Picture.

Is Marty going to Argo? I will. That would be great. It's not going to happen. Yeah. I don't. This is just like a, this show is just a starter kit for the Oscars now. Yeah.

It's just, this is for Normies to check out. Hey, here's what you should. stream in the next two months as you wait for the Academy Award nominations is that do we need that maybe i mean i don't think listeners of this show need it because you and i do that they are on our turf somewhat but like that's okay if we if we want more people engaging with the culture of movies see the first hour and a half of this podcast then sure as many you know glitzy ceremonies being like hey look over here watch it was just an accident as we can get i agree i i i mean i I like the idea of celebrating the artists, obviously.

I'm for that. And if it means more exposure and money for them, I'm for that. It's silly. It's also this. I don't know. White Lotus also got a lot of nominees. So a bunch of people will tune in for that. And then maybe they'll learn about a film, which is great.

So leveraging, you know, TV brain for the purposes of teaching people about movies. Yeah. What about podcast brain? Yeah. Amy Polar. Good Hang with Amy Poehler nominated one of the five nominees. Congratulations to Amy. Yeah.

The greatest. I'm very happy for her, very happy for that show. That show is great, and it is a ringer show and a Spotify show. Yeah, I'm very grateful for all of the work that Amy has done in terms of advocating for cameras that look good on people. Got it. Thank you, Amy. That's, I, yes, thank you, Amy. Look better, I guess we should say.

I don't know if you and I have gotten to good, but she looks great. I'll never get to good. CR's campaign for Ben Shapiro shut down, denied. tough, tough break for him. He'd been going door to door to all of the... Is it even the Hollywood Foreign Press Association? What is the name of the organization now?

I think they are just the Golden Globes. Like that's the name of the organization. Like I'm Jim Golden Globe? Yeah. Okay. All right, cool. Let's briefly talk about it was just an accident. Okay.

Through the less said until you've seen it, the better. I agree. I just want to maybe highlight a couple of things that I really like about this movie before throwing to our conversation with Jafarani. So, written directed by him, the cast includes Vahid Mubaseri, Meriam Ashfari, and Ibrahim Azizi. Most of these actors are relatively unknown. This film was shot largely in secret, in part because of the experience that Panahi has been going through,

which is slightly confusing where he served time in prison. He had a period of time in which he was under house arrest. He had a long travel ban, a 20-year travel ban. he has been able to kind of navigate and negotiate around some of those things over that time during the period in which he was under house arrest. He made a film called This Is Not a Film. He made a film in 2015 called Taxi in which he just mounted a camera in a taxi and had a series of exchanges that may or may not be what really happened.

He's an incredibly experimental filmmaker, but also a very traditional filmmaker. And this movie is much more traditional than what he has been making over the last 10 or 15 years because of the circumstances that he's been under in the regime. What did you think of? It was just an accident. So I went in knowing almost nothing except that it was a thriller and that it won the palm door. And I loved it. I mean, I was, like, very stressed out, and it does that essential, like, thriller audience-pleasing thing of there is a central question.

And, like, I didn't know. And I went back and forth throughout. the film of where I think the various characters I understood their motivations, but are they right, are they wrong? How is this going to pan out? I don't know. And it does manage to keep wrong footing you

as it adds people and complications to the process. There's also one extended, I mean, there are a number of very tense set pieces, but there's one in a hospital that I have thought about with nausea. If I had legs, I'd kick you was the most nauseous I've been in a theater, this is a close second. And that's a companion for part of the same reason. Yeah, I mean, the framework of the movie is that a man drive, a man and his family drive into a mechanics office after they've gotten into an accident.

And one of the men working in the mechanics notices that the man who has pulled in with his family may or may not be. be a significant and terrifying figure from his past, someone who is responsible for tremendous pain that he has caused him and caused other people that he knows closely. And he sets out to figure out if this man is in fact his torture, the person who is responsible for all these terrible acts.

And it becomes this kind of like Hitchcockian road comedy where you're really nervous and unsure of what is real and like what is true and what is not true and whether or not they will be able to ascertain the truth but as you said they keep adding more and more characters and figures into this world into this caravan that is traveling around Tehran and it's like such a fascinating blend of tone because and I you know I come to it with a lot of this knowledge of Panahi's films and his filmmaking style and some of his movies have attention in them but they're usually much more sort of like intellectually

rigorous and exploring like what makes a movie and this is a real movie it is a narrative story and like I was asking him questions when we were talking about like convention and you know how do you think about like plotting and he was like I don't really think about it that way

what matters is the idea that I'm really driving at but that it isn't that kind of movie like if people are concerned about checking this out because they're like an Iranian film and you know in a foreign language that is a world that I don't understand and what do I have to know about the director? Like, you don't.

You don't. You really, in order to click with it. And you learn a lot about the world. Yes. And really, there are, you know, it's incredibly, like, well-observed. And the, you know, the tap to pay comes up several times.

And I've thought about that a lot. Also, when you were, when we were fighting about who can dig a hole, that's immediately what I thought of. So there's a lot that stays with you. But it is, you just want to find out what happens and the way in which we find out the way in which it's like it is

one of, we've been talking about what are the great endings of the movie endings of the year, you know, Marty Supriene, one of the great endings. What was the other movie you said that you thought was like absolutely dynamite? You know, if I had like I said, kick you has an incredible ending. One battle after another has an incredible ending. Like no other choice has an incredible ending.

There are a series of movies this year where you walk out going like, wow, nice. Yeah. And this is not quite as uplifting, I would say, But it is incredibly impactful and really delivers on the paranoia that is steeped deep inside of this movie. So, yeah, this is a wonderful film? And, you know, we've been saying, like, is there, like, an anatomy of a fall this year? I think this is it.

Yeah, it's starting. Yeah. You know, people are really responding to it. And obviously, they're very, I think, savilely locating what Panahi represents in the world at large. And how, you know, if you live under fascism or you live under a controlling theocratic state, what does it mean to try to be an artist and express yourself? And he is doing that in fascinating ways. I don't know what's going to happen to him in the long term.

He talked a little bit about his time in prison before this when we spoke. But that aspect of things is very scary and very sad, but I hope that he is here through the duration of at least his campaign. But he's also, you know, his heart and his life and his family is in Iran. So he naturally wants to go back to his home. So it's a very complicated story. What an episode. Yeah, it's not done.

It's not done. Let's go now to my conversation with Jafar Panahi. It is an honor to be joined by Jafar Panahi and his interpreter, Shaded Ayani. Thank you both for being here. So I wanted to start with this. It's fascinating to see your point of view and your filmmaking skill put towards a classical thriller, a traditional thriller style. Did you have any cinematic examples

that you thought of while you were working on this film? I don't know where you have reached that you call it a thriller. Mammualen, the film of tarsnake, and my wife watching thrillers at home. And every time he wants to watch them, I run away.

And whenever she wants to watch them, I run away. Ascent, ta'amol. Because I can't really tolerate thrillers. That's so surprising to hear because I was very taught throughout this movie. I don't know, I'm, I'm afraid to him. For me, there is no fear in it. Because what my wife watches is full of blood and murder and murder, and I don't associate with that. Because what my wife watches is full of killing and blood and murder, and I don't associate with that.

That's what I call a thriller. It's funny to hear you say that, though, because it does conjure the idea of revenge, which is something you see in lots and lots of American films. Does that word feel appropriate to you for this film? You know, I think I'm, think I'm endangam, backshish. These are just in the state of the work on, and they're doing it, they're going to beckxed. I really think that themes such as, revenge and forgiveness are only on the surface.

And they're there to move the plot forward. I mean, be on the end of it, if you're going to be in turn. Just in the same way to be able to stay. Such themes will not take you deep down into the film. They will only remain on the surface and they will move you maybe just through the story. Deghagher of my issue was not that. My issue was that now needs of a

community, like our society. My issue was raising other questions that are the need of our society. What can we do? Are you this chark of chushionate, to end up

every way, to a takeer and again. The question is, is the cycle of violence going to continue? As before and keep repeating itself? Or not, it's a way to decide to get it, or is there a point where we decide to end it?

So those themes of revenge and forgiveness are just introductions and preambles to get to this one question. The film takes this interesting approach of a dialectic among five characters who all seem to represent different. points of view on what you just described. Can you talk about finding a way to craft real characters while also representing all

of these different ideas that the film is exploring? I think it's very rare, because these nomenoesha, it's really easy, because you can find examples of those characters both within the society, and I also saw them. when I was in prison. When a jamae, in a state-and-dazzi has been, they're in-of-with-wit

when a society is shitting, these characters automatically will rise. And if you think it's how to the result of the final

question. This is very much, You can come across such encounters on virtual spaces, on the society itself, very easily. So, it's right to any other men, they're in the film name of the gauzeh, and now we're not with dialogue. So you can easily select them, put them in the script, and now you just have to find the dialogues between them. And the other thoughts of different

that has, the thoughts of different things in this personality, it's not going to be able to. And the different viewpoints of the characters, different thoughts of the characters, are also helping with moving the story forward. Because some of the tazard they're with them,

they're ham-so-mish. Because sometimes they're in contradiction and sometimes they're in line. What does this story want? These are exactly what moves the story forward. What about finding the right actors? I recognized a couple of the actors from previous work, but working in secret, casting must be challenging.

How do you do that? Yes, but That's what I'm In the first of me In fact of the first Every one of the One of the first thing that Now, the person who might

Tohashbosk Fisic is that man Yes, but what matters to me initially is the Actors' physical appearances to match the characters Theamashogar at first With the first thing that

the first thing that the audience sees is the physical characteristics of an actor. And that's how much in the last day of the time of the time of the time. And the question is, how much those physical characteristics can bring the audience along in the first moments? Well, for example, Fasconn't

that Waheed Umade, a problem made, a shocky has made to make

to someone and he's help. For instance, Vahid has a problem, he goes to

someone and he asks for help. And that man who's in Ketah Fulushy and

Gouiab Changadad a lot more more And the character who is at the bookstore and seems to be a few steps forward introduces another person. And you're from there's from there for you, behind me do. And gives the audience an idea about the coming character. Whatever she says, listen to her.

So you think you, well, the man who wants to go to him, a charisma So the audience has it in their mind that the character whom Vahid is going to has certain charisma and can be influential. You mean as

a pish-a-pitch to be a leadery meaning you see a leader in advance. Well, now when we're the first picture that from Shiaa So the first shot that we see of Shiva, we have to see that character and personality in her face. No way barrage that makes, the way she conducts herself, the way she walks, the way she looks.

They all make a difference. Well, when these are in your zheenet, everything is, look, look, look at all make a difference. When you have all these in your mind, then you look and ask, whom can you trust? I mean, I, man, in one of the films that I had come back of my friends'am, there's something good. I remembered that when I was helping a friend of mine

on the set of his film, I met his assistant and I realized that she could be a good fit. And that film, I'm like the film of your hostess. By the spirit of the same way, it's made. Now, by that man, I can't believe in. And because that film was made in the style of my films underground, I knew that I could trust that actor. Most of them or

do you have basing not or in the film in chenny boss of my actors either had not acted before or they had acted in clandestinely made films. I wanted to ask about Shiva.

At first I was surprised that there was not a film-making component to the movie and then it occurred to me that she's a photographer. Is there a significance in Shiva being a photographer? I don't know in the film We don't mean, but

this man with arous in fact that I don't explain this in the film, but in fact Shiva and the character of the bride were both journalists. Wahid, he again, he said that I've got a report. Vahid says at some point that he had read

the report. And he makes a ruse him and he makes a reference to the bride. Well, I thought, well, these are when they're a question of, a koss

was a khavernaguer. I thought that when they wrote that report, there must have been a journalist and a photojournalist. Now, by this that's why she came into the story. And the kind of these are left, Zendan, and Mamnolkar shored. And the context is that they would have gone to prison.

They would have been banned from working in journalism. And now she's out and she's doing just photography. Can you talk a little bit about balancing tone? Is this struck me as perhaps ironically one of your funniest movies? And the subject matter is obviously incredibly intense. seems difficult to balance tone. How do you think about doing that when you're making a film?

You know, every event that in the thing that's any of the end of sometimes I'm in there. You know, anything that happens in the daily life, actually at the end of the day,

you have some smiles going on too. That's the, that we're all right we're going to. First, share we're all righting. In this very interesting, view that we're doing now. At the beginning we tried to smile even if we were faking it, but we tried to make some

laugh. Just so we can't bring the audience along. Speak for yourself. I'm not faking. For you, I'm not faking. Now, this matter, this matter, in itself, in

it's in a reality, it's So this tone of laughter, smiles, humor has been combined into the film itself. And this makes it in the genre of realism. And it makes it believable. Well, how would we not expect it to not be in the film? It's how would we expect it to not be in the film? It also makes the subject matter.

more tolerable. Especially I really I wanted to 20theghi after this especially because I really did want

this to be in the film, this tone of laughter, to be in the film until the very last 20 minutes of the film.

I wanted to be the first time to affect was a second after. I wanted

the last 20 minutes to be very influential. That's when the time. to the point that when the audience leaves the theater, they would still be thinking

about the film. So I had to make a difference in a difference in tones in film, so I had to make some kind of a difference in tones in film and so that the film would not be monotonous. Now, let's imagine that those parts that have, this tans to not do, this laugh, laugh, dotho. Imagine

those parts that had humor, without humor, without smiles. And that way the film would be monotonous until the last, also in the last 20 minutes, and it wouldn't have the impact that it does now. Because there was no difference in tone. I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about the difference between fact and fiction and our sense of what is really happening and whatnot. Your last few films are exploring the balance.

between what's real and not real, this film that's also part of the character's pursuit. Did the work on those movies inform writing this movie? Mousalaman in theory of course they did help. You know, in fact, you're in front of film, no way the reality of life is. No film is pure reality. You're only inculcating reality.

You know, you come out of the realities, you'll get it, and then to think of your own own yourself, you'll bring it, and then bring it back again to reality. A filmmaker gets inspired by realities, then the filmmaker brings those inspirations into their imagination, develops it in their imagination,

and then brings it back into another form of reality. And in this ballie that makes it, And in this game, you try to inculcate reality. In fact, this story never happened. But in your tachyoling of your imagination. It just happens in your imagination. But based on what? Based on real references. Or by the assas of the actual preferences?

Or based on imagination that you have had. before. And based on, you're over the wall, show you're having a

hand, a lot of chocker, now one he's behind your and he and asks

and you know, or soal you know and based on experiences that you have

had before such as you're being blindfolded in the prison, someone

walking behind you and you're hearing their sound of footsteps and them giving you you a pen and a paper and asking you questions.

And you just the rest of sheenawait more things. And now it's just your auditory sense that is working at its peak. And as to this sound, do you think you, think, you know, this is how it's how many years? You're only reconstructing reality based on the sounds you hear. You're thinking, how old is this person behind me?

What does he look like? If I see him outside, would I recognize him or not? If I see him outside, would I recognize him? So this game has already started. And when you want to go ahead, in order of this matter of this, D.A. in the same issue, then when you write about the same issue, then this game becomes increased and highlighted. When you were in prison, did you take...

Very specific notes so that you could find a way to reproduce or reimagine these experiences in your work? Asan, that moment, be thinking of film making films in prison. I really was not even in my mind that I would one day make a film. But, I just wanted the time to pass. We were talking about our lives. We were talking with one another. We were talking with one another.

We were having empathy for each other. We were talking about our experiences as past time. And this, that's the end up the end of the endang was that you think you, you know, this is, this kept continuing and it was only outside prison that you kept thinking you have to do something.

And that was because of the that time of a lot of a lot of a lot of people, and now can't forget them. And that was because of the fact that I had lived with a number of people for some time in prison and I could not forget them. A gusha of zheny disqualed and, hey, you want to, or hey, you know, out of, bring you.

They had occupied somewhere in my mind and I just wanted to let go of those experiences. Or a big bar of stunginny to doshed that may want to a very heavy burden that was on my shoulders. And it was the burden of thinking that I am outside and my friends are still in prison. And I realized I have to do something.

And because car just film You know, I'm going to give them to film and because I knew nothing other than filmmaking when I thought I'm going to make a film about them. One scene that really resonates for me is the moment when they're on the roof and approached by security and the security guard or the officer

pulls out a credit card machine which is incredibly specific. I'm wondering if you could talk about where that sequence comes from. The mosthackess of a few of the governments that do not have done, is that to us, by fissade, to everything, be brish-davonded. The one characteristic of regimes that don't have a specific clear structure is that corruption has run its roots in everything.

Like, like, that we were in the Zendom were in, like, I remember a few hundred people had died, that we were three, many people, all of us were city-eighth were in prison. We were in a group of about 300, maybe, I don't remember

300 prisoners. It was only 30 or 40 of us who were political prisoners. And the other, like, money, and others had sentences for financial crime. Yeah, every

or a place where you may you, you have to a recheway or the fact that any office that you go to, anywhere you go to,

you have to somehow bribe people. Now, this, the lehne of adabhanes, you know, a name

Zorakhi. The polite way of saying it is that you have to tip people or you are forced to tip people.

Now, this matter of the, what we're very much. A lot of, a matter of But this is of those

etifahs, and the massile of the gundee that is, of course, a minute detail compared to

the bigger corruption charges that are happening. I mean, I mean, that from a way I'd

go from a, a, a, chart-way, and, and, I remember, that was the same time one or two of these

boys of the car were coming through an intersection and when there was a red light, one or two of these children of labor came to my car. They wanted to shishar to tamise conan, and they had to awabham ricked, that tamisholed and they wanted to clean my windshield and they even started pouring water on it to start cleaning it. Shishabry, and I came, and I said, I said, my son, please don't touch the car, please don't do this. I kept doing what he wanted to do.

I said to him, I said to him, nobody carries cash around and I don't have any cash to give you. He said to him, nobody carries cash around and I don't have any cash to give you. He said, it's okay, I have a credit card machine. Well, this also, this is a kind of experience. We have to have made up to the fact of the film of our minedished. Well, this also, myself and friends who collaborated with me on writing this script have had similar experiences and they somehow made their way into the film. During that sequence and a few others, I thought of your friend Abbas Kyrsami a bit while watching the movie.

I wonder, was he on your mind while you were working on this? What do you think you would make of this movie? I don't know. He's no longer with us. I don't know if he would like the film or not. Do you hope that he would? I don't know. I mean, everyone's the film is good. Naturally, you want everyone.

to like your film. You've said in the past that you felt you couldn't make a film outside of Iran because you don't know the culture outside of your home country. You've been traveling this past year? Are your ideas changing about that at all?

But this is not traveling. I'm either on the plane. Or I'm in a room like this. Where is to my world? Where am I in contact with people? It's a lot of my hotel for me get, a place that's really a place of chalbatt and these things are.

Sometimes they get my hotels in very, in neighborhoods that are not crowded or not among people. Yeah, it's good. This is good. This is a lot of shiq. It's a very luxurious, fancy hotel. I say this is nice. It's a very luxurious fancy hotel.

But I really want to be among people, I want to be in the crowds. Let's want to be in the crowds. Let's want to be a lot of the hotel for me a job to be able to be able to beckar, be it, to beckon, be there. Please get my hotel in areas where if I have 10 minutes or one hour, I could just meet people. But our friends, they're all right now doing. But our friends, because they're very kind to me. the other neighborhoods. If anyone could make an interesting movie

about promoting a movie, though, given taxi, given this is not a film, I think that you could do that. I don't know what that means. I don't know. I don't know how to make that. Have you figured out what you are doing next? I don't know that I have to make a film I just know that I have to make a film about war.

There was a time I'm 15 years, 20 years before, five years done for a tarry, do I did. There was a time about 15 years ago that I tried really hard for five years to make a project, to make a film project. That's, because by the sort of Zizabeth, it didn't work, because of the opportunities of good, it would be a big production. It was not a film that I could make underground because it is a, or it was a big production. I had written the initial script.

But I couldn't make it. But I couldn't make it. But now, the other than the world is going to be up to, it's a lot of course of tears. But with everything going on in the world, it really scares me. And now, I've got, I'm in about this matter of war, a film of insodny. And it tells me that I have to make a humanistic film about war. Not to make a film

I'm, but a film issue of a show not to make a war movie but to make a socially

engaged movie with the subject matter of war. Like a case of I'm saying this film

is a political, I'm a film is a community with a

music just like it was just an accident I do not consider it a political

film. I consider it a social film with a political subject matter. Sometimes I get a time I'm in this safarer and these hotels

doofed that are going to get, sometimes I get a chance to be sitting a little bit of one to establish sometimes I get a chance on these trips and in these far away hotels that they book for me to sit down and work on my scripts

about the war. Would a film like that have to be made differently than what you've been doing in recent years? No, exactly. A film I said, film is a film of eachamai is,

by a motion jangy. No, as I said, it's going to be a socially engaged film with the subject of war. I think I'm not going to

be a big production. No, no. Ascent, no, it's not, it's not. It cannot be made clandestinely. Absolutely not.

Again, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

um, It needs a big production, a lot of budget, and a lot of resources. Does the success of this movie make that more possible for you? I never think of this way to think of this. I really don't look at making films as such. I always say that this film to him, I always say to myself, I believe in this film. I always say to myself, I believe in this film. and I have to make it.

And I have to just find a solution for it. And I don't know when that solution will come, how, and at what time. To far, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what is the last great thing they have seen. I know you've been traveling and staying in hotels, but have you seen anything great lately? The last film I thought I've seen, the film, I mean, it was a film

Irani was that termim should be. And it was that I'm about it's harf I saw. The last film I saw was an Iranian film that had been reconstructed. The car of Ustad Bezai was, a film of Bashu,

a little bitcheek. It is by Bahram Bezai, Maestro Bezai. And it is called Basu, a little stranger. And in fact, that too, is about war. That's a great recommendation. Thank you very much.

Okay, thank you to Jafar Panahi. Thank you to his interpreter. Thank you to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this epic episode. We'll be back on Wednesday to talk about Noah Baumbach's new film, J. Kelly. What else? What else is going on with you? You've got to go to a parent-teacher conference. I do.

Yeah. I'm trying to go see Hamnet again. Yeah. You got a lot of movies to watch. Yeah? And a lot of podcasting with you. And going to meet Santa at some point. Just you.

Just so low. You're going to sit on his lap? Uh-huh. And I'm trying to lock down that jacket. You know, greatest mommy. You're getting online now. Okay. We'll see you on Wednesday.

You know,