The Big Picture - The Two Best Movies of 2023 So Far, and 10 More We Missed. Plus: Michelle Williams and Kelly Reichardt!

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Sean and Amanda discuss ‘How to Blow Up a Pipeline’ and Kelly Reichardt’s ‘Showing Up’ (1:00) before checking in on several 2023 releases they missed on the show this year. Then, Sean is joined by Michelle Williams and Reichardt to discuss their fourth collaboration, ‘Showing Up’ (1:07:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Michelle Williams and Kelly Reichardt Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Illy and host of What About Your Friends, a podcast dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the Ringer Dish Feed, I talk to my best friend, Stephen Othello, and your favorites from within the Ringer and beyond about friendships on TV, in movies, pop culture, and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the Ringer Dish Feed, where we try to answer the question TLC asks back in the day, what about your friends? I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about making art. Later in the show, I'll be joined by Michelle Williams and Kelly Reichert, the star and director of Showing Up. This is their fourth collaboration after Wendy and Lucy, Meek's Cutoff, and Certain Women, each of which is a fascinating portrait of class and American desperation. Showing Up is a

wonderful movie. We'll be talking about it on this episode. I hope you'll stick around for my conversation about that film. Let's talk now about movies, because there's a bunch of movies that have come out in 2023 that we haven't had a chance to discuss. One of them is the Super Mario Brothers movie. This is a conversation show about making art. Cut to the Super Mario Brothers movie. Well, there's two really, really special movies that came out this past weekend.

That are amazing. Yes, that are really, really good films that we'll talk about. You know, we won't spoil them, but we'll just celebrate them because they're expanding over the next few weeks. More people will get a chance to see them. And they're running

as a kind of counterpoint to what happened at the box office over the weekend, which is that the movie Air, which we liked with some reservations, did solid business

for an adult drama. And the Super Mario Brothers movie made $377 million worldwide, which is like, seems fake. And you, a paying consumer of American cinema. That's true. My money is represented in that total. You went to the movies and you saw that movie.

$6 of it because I saw an 1150 showing. Oh, matinee. Nice job. And also that, by the way, I charged it to Spotify. So $6 of Spotify's money. What did you think of this movie? All the children that I saw it with seemed to have a pleasant time. And as soon as I walked in, I went to see it because I have a job. And also because we were going to be talking about brand movies. And, you know, I do my job.

You want to know the landscape. Yeah. So I went and as, as I walked in, it occurred to me that I was going during spring break in Los Angeles, the school district, and also at a prime child time. And so I did get the full parents taking their kids back to the movies experience,

which has been the talking point around this. Like families have been underserved at the box office, blah, blah, blah. This is what happens when you make a movie for kids. And so I got to watch it with children. And I did also then start thinking about my own son who won't sit still for anything, but like one day, like maybe we'll go to the movies. And I thought it was a fine movie for children.

There was a child behind me yelling Goombas every once in a while. There was another child dressed as Super Mario. Only one, you know? That's not bad. It was a Wednesday. Maybe like this Super Mario convention happened on Friday. I'm not really sure. I didn't check it out. I think kids are loving this movie. Yeah. And I enjoyed my conversation with Ben Lindbergh and Charles Holmes about it in part because I think they brought a lot of context to the experience. But all three of us a lot of context to the experience. But all three of us were kind of circling the drain of the idea that like, what would be the upside of just absolutely hammering this movie? Because it's clearly made for seven-year-olds,

and seven-year-olds are loving it. And it's also coming at a time when there has been a dearth of children's entertainment at the movies. Yeah. And so it arrived at kind of a perfect time. Whether or not, I don't- And also it was, you know, the five-day weekend, the Easter holiday.

Spring break. Spring break for a lot of people. I mean, there, I was texting you during the movie, which is rude, but it was fine. The children couldn't see it. And there was a family with a child, like a six-month-old baby. And then actually, I think that was Mario um Mario

the big brother and then the younger baby and the parents were basically one was in the theater with the older child and the other was like going back and forth with like a baby and so it was like half child care half we're you know trying to entertain our kid and I was like I get it I see it but this was this was just parents trying to have something to do with their kids. I want to ask you a complicated question because you already do not spend hardly any of your personal or professional time watching what you would perceive to be children's entertainment because you already think of it as for kids. Now, obviously in the last 25 years, we've seen this cottage industry of kids' entertainment

that is also made for adults, that is revolutionized by Pixar, but now is infecting every kind of animated company. Even a lot of G and PG rated movies seem to be as much for adults as they are for kids. There's been a debate

in the aftermath of this movie's success, the Mario Brothers movie, about whether or not kids' entertainment needs to enlighten or needs to make children think more deeply or needs to have essentially something more valuable in the execution other than sheer entertainment. Thus far, any parent that I know myself included has a new, has a sincere appreciation for my child enjoyed this or this distracted my child or kind of neutralized

the afternoon. It's a long spring break and we got to fill the hours between 11 and one somehow. But you're, you know, you're a thoughtful, literate person. You know, you want your son to be engaged with the world in an intellectual way and in an emotional way. And you don't just want him to just watch dumb shit all day. Right where do you fall like when you watch the superman brothers movie do you think like this will be good for my son or it won't be it'll be good for my afternoon how do you balance that equation i didn't think that it would like enrich and enrich the interior life of my child that wasn't exactly my well you said will this be good for my son and no i thought about it in terms of i can see at some point if he ever actually does sit still.

This as an activity, as a place to go. Really, movie as amusement park. Yeah. Again, like theater as activity, theater as place for people to come together and do something with their kids. The same way that you and I like patronize every single botanical garden in the Los Angeles area they're having some free programs on Friday night meant to tell you about that can't wait maybe we should make some plans that's like but you know this is where we are so absolutely and I think that there is value in that experience to my son, to me, certainly as a parent, to any other parents. I think it would be cool if they made some movies that also like taught him something

or that if he got to a place where there was like added value, but I don't, I don't know. He's a kid. Like, what's he going gonna, like, I do understand that you just need something that they're going to enjoy that isn't totally evil. The one reservation I had is you and Ben and Charles talked about on the last episode is that this movie, and I do think it was clever how it incorporates the actual gameplay of the various Super Mario. You know, suddenly you're in like Super Mario Kart and they even have the music. And I was like, oh, I used to play that at my friend's house.

So I appreciated that. ad for video games which I feel less conflicted about in this context than I do say in air primarily because I hold my hero Ben Affleck to a higher standard um but also because I know I'm not really at risk of like going out and buying Super Mario Kart but I did think watching it oh is if my son watched this is that he then gonna to want to play super Mario cart nonstop. And then I'm, am I going to have to be dealing with that and how much of his time is going to be spent? And there,

there is, you were teasing me about my stance on video games and my child last week. And I'm, I'm sure at some point he will get a, what's it called? What's the new one? Switch. It's not new,

but it's, it's popular. You know what? What? I'm here having an earnest conversation about a video game movie with you. Like I'm giving you an honest answer. It's not new one switch it's not new but it's it's popular you know what what i'm here having an artist conversation about a video game movie with you like i'm giving you an honest answer it's not new i know but you made it you made a little look with your face because i didn't i haven't kept up with it so it it's like the it's the trade-off right i can feel you like

going through this in real time you asked me a question so i'm answering it i know i do i feel like you're negotiating how you're going to have to feel about it. Because I think that that's, where you're going is where we all are, which is where, like, this is in this slipstream of connectivity

between product, art, and they're all fitting to each other. And obviously, this has been happening forever. Like, Disney's been making movies and they have theme parks and merchandise

and none of that is new. it feels like it is just highly concentrated right now and part of the reason why i wanted to raise it to you is obviously we're we're raising kids and so we're thinking about these things more acutely than we were previously but it's an amazing contrast to this kelly reichardt movie showing up because that's it's literally the opposite idea and so i'm hoping that we can kind of unpack a little bit what that that movie is trying to say about the process and lifestyle of being an artist that is not necessarily driven by commercial intent whereas the super mario brothers movie air these are these big bold proclamations to the american marketplace

that are primarily about making money off of product. Yeah. And their products themselves. Showing up, this is Reichardt's eighth movie. For anybody who's not familiar with her, she was a guest previously on the show talking about the movie First Cow, which was one of the very best movies of 2020,

but was released literally the week before the COVID-19 pandemic lockdown hit. The last person I talked to on this podcast in person before the covid 19 pandemic lockdown hit the last person i talked to on this podcast in person before the lockdown was kelly reichardt i remember specifically she did not want to shake my hand because she was concerned about what might have been going on and that was in february yeah so she was ahead of the curve and she's she is one of the signature american independent filmmakers of the 21st century. She makes very thoughtful, poetic, wry commentary films about loneliness, about class, about emotional confusion,

about gender, certainly many films through the eyes of women. Some of these films are about activists. This new movie showing up is probably her funniest movie and her lightest movie, but also has this deep core of pain and anguish at the center of it. Yeah. It's very tightly on this one character played by Michelle Williams, who is herself an artist who comes from a family of artists and who is constantly making things, making work. But she's not swimming in dough.

You know what I mean? This is not Picasso. This is not Rembrandt. This is like a person who is not necessarily toiling because you can see she gains a kind of like emotional calm from doing the work, but she's living a very simple middle or lower middle-class lifestyle. And we just never see this. We never see this on screen. I don't think most people think about artists who are just making a living and getting by. I really, really, really responded to this movie in the way that it was told. What did you think of it? This is a movie about craft, which is usually when my brain turns off,

and which I think can be like the big flashing warning light of a certain type of like grandiose self-serious here is you know art trend says the purest highest calling the purest thing and and i often think when artists talk about their craft in that way it edges into the pompous and this is an amazing movie about like what it is to like quite literally physically make art and like michelle williams is a plays a ceramicist like she's making sculptures she calls them my girls but um but there is like a physical process that is so exciting to watch. And I, and I have never really seen on screen. And I think often like gets divorced even from our consideration of like fine visual art, you know. And, and so it's really cool to see that on the literal level.

That's also, I think, a metaphor for all types of art certainly filmmaking and like everything that the logistical practical physical like engineering realities of this you forget that these people are technicians and like physicists as much as they are um like people like touched by the muse or whatever greek poetry and I was so exhilarated both by just the way the, the art, the, the ceramic, the ceramics are portrayed.

Like, it's just a cool thing to watch. You don't get to see it. And, and they're beautiful. The, the artwork is, it is like really memorable,

but then also this approach to the idea of creation, which was just grounded. And I don't mean to say that it's like without emotion or meaning. The Michelle Williams character is going through a lot about like her own success, how she relates to other people, her friends that she works with, how she relates to her family. Her father is, you know, a noted ceramicist her mother yes um her mother runs like the local foundation i guess where art school where she works and the reveal that this this boss is her mother is one of the funniest parts of the whole movie it's really you know just like a small great moment I thought a lot about banshees um when watching this movie which is in a different way about the anguish of creativity and also um and relating to other people while doing it it won't surprise you to learn that I

relate more to the showing up version of this um but it does work on that deeper level, if not operatic level, while also just being a cool movie about making stuff. Yeah, it's unusual in that its stakes are very modest, but I think it acts as an incredible metaphor for basically all independent filmmaking and certainly for the world that Reichardt has occupied. She told her story at length on the WTF podcast. I would encourage people to listen to that. about this movie that I thought was resonant was that this is a reflection of making things for a very small

group of people and showing them to those same people over and over again for a long period of time and thinking about what is the value of that

and the experience of that because you know Michelle Williams' character Lizzie the film sort of culminates in her making her work

to show you know showing up for this presentation and showing up to do the work every day you know showing up for this presentation not and showing up to do the work every day those are the big ideas of the movie and you know ultimately the film ends in a kind of success but the way that that success is received is very low-key and almost downbeat and it's an interesting reflection and an interesting comparison to something like the super mario brothers movie which feels like almost parody of our society

and what we want to consume and how we receive things versus someone like this, who's living really very modestly, but satisfied and discontent at the same time. You know what I mean? Like Michelle Williams often plays these characters in Riker movies where she seems simultaneously like fierce and smart and together, but also kind of depressed and destroyed.

You know, Wendy and Lucy is like one of them. To me, there's only a movie of hers that I revisited before I watched this and talked to them. But that was the one where I was like, this is kind of the movie of the first half of the 21st century. It talks so much about people kind of drifting through America after it has been kind of like ripped apart during the 2000s. This felt like a slightly more like wistful, like sweet follow-up to that movie. You know, like this movie has like a weirdly sort of a happy ending, which is uncommon in white card movies, you know?

It had like a contrasting of a happy ending which is uncommon in in the white card movies you know it had like a it had like a contrasting note i thought to the end of the fablemans in terms of like what you see in the final sequence probably no spoilers but i thought of casablanca oh interesting yeah even though you know the way the the the last shot and the camera pulls totally um there's a there's another interesting thread going in this that speaks both to how to be an artist and how to be a person in terms of selflessness versus not really selflessness ever. I don't think that that is part of any artist experience. But like, who are you doing it for? And the selfishness. And are you doing it for your own satisfaction, as you said?

Are you doing it to be gratified by other people? Are you doing this because you have to do it for yourself? Are you doing this because other people are going to respond to it? What does it cost you to do it? And what do you ask other people? What do you give up? What do other people give up? What are you willing to give to other people? There's, there's a bird who sort of literalizes a lot of that um and also meets a no spoilers happy it's like the bird doesn't die i you know sorry what what what comes before you basically yeah exactly what's more important when you're a working artist which obviously can apply to art i think you know, there is a little bit about, you know, that loneliness

and just like how to be a person in the world that I think is cool, but it's not heavy handed. Mm-hmm. Um, but still like packs a punch and I think has like

a very nice ending as well. And that's, that's an amazing movie. It's a really, really good film. It's probably my favorite movie that I've seen.

Maybe not the favorite movie I've seen this year, but my favorite movie that's out so far this year. And it'll be interesting. I mean, you know, I think this originally played at Cannes last year and has been held by A24 for almost a year now. And I don't think it's necessarily got, like,

a box office sensation written all over it. But we will get to a point where the bigger culture at large will catch up with Kelly Riker. Like there are not a lot of female filmmakers, certainly, who are kind of working at her level. Thematically, she's always been a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of where our country stands. And I liked her kind of arriving at a personal moment of what felt like, even if she was still working through something as a writer, as a filmmaker, I should say co-writer with John Raymond, who's the author who she's written many of her films with. I felt like she was at a moment of like personal satisfaction to make a movie like this. Like if you've seen Meek's Cutoff or if you've seen Certain Women, like those are grave, difficult movies with challenging endings and there's a world of intensity inside of them.

This is a movie that certainly has pain and it features mental illness and struggle, but it has a sweetness and a lightness to it that is uncommon. So I was kind of like, oh, it seems like Kelly's doing okay. You know, it's a movie. And you walk out feeling like on that wave of just like, oh, okay, we'll figure this out. You know? So Riker made a movie in 2013 called Night Moves, which I liked quite a bit, which was this sort of activist drama starring Jesse Eisenberg about a few young people who were ecological activists who attempt to get notice for their beliefs and things go terribly awry and someone dies. And this movie has been cited quite frequently because there's a new movie in theaters that

opened this weekend called How to Blow Up a Pipeline. And I think that they're interesting to pose against each other in part because that movie came under some fire from ecological activists because it showed kind of like only the downsides of direct action. And How to Blow Up a Pipeline is an even more spirited leftist text, but it's also a very, very entertaining thriller. And if showing up isn't my favorite movie of the year, this is my favorite movie of the year. I really, really like this movie a lot.

It's directed by Daniel Goldhaber. It's co-written by Goldhaber and Ariella Barrera, who's the star of the movie. I talked to both of them last week. That'll be on the show later this week. Another movie that I don't

want to spoil too much, but I do really want to celebrate and encourage people to check out as it opens in more theaters. This is the rare movie that is based on a non-fiction

academic text written by Andreas Malm in 2021. And it is like a rhetorical attack on the system and it is an encouragement to action, but it is by no means- A how-to book or a novel.

Both. It's neither of those things. It's non-narrative and it doesn't really tell you how to blow up a pipeline. Right. So it's a fascinating inspiration for a movie. And yet the movie itself is a weirdly Amanda and Sean movie. I mean, it's kind of Ocean's Eleven, but with like... But not fun.

Not fun. Well, no, it's not at all fun. But it is riveting. And you are engaged with seeing how the story plays out in a very specific way. My biggest endorsement of this film is that i i did need to pee at some point and i i was like i can't leave and i didn't i just i was like i cannot miss a moment of this it is so i think tightly constructed and um well structured and told that you're just like well i i want to know what happens and i don't totally know how it's going to go

and i i need to know i need every piece of information that's in this film. And so I can't time when I'm going to leave. And part of the reason that the film works so well is because I think that there are so few examples of this like kind of political agitprop that sticks to its beliefs, you know, that doesn't say, well, actually there are consequences to this kind of action. You know, if there are consequences, well, actually there are consequences to this kind of action. You know, if there are consequences, like it is clear right about those consequences. And then the film is also very, very mechanically minded. Like we are sitting next to the actors, you know, as their characters make their plan and execute their plan. It is a real TikTok that uses a very similar flashback style to like the Notions 11 movie.

Or like going all the way back to Stanley Kubrick's The Killing where like you see the characters going forward towards their plan. But then the story takes you to the past to show you why these people are executing on this plan to, you know, to attempt to blow up a pipeline. It is what it says on the label here. Yeah. reveals scattered throughout the various flashbacks where you you know you're putting the puzzle together as the movie goes along and it doesn't come together until the very end goldhaber is a really interesting filmmaker he made a movie in 2018 called cam which is about a sort of like um only fan style like sex cam you know performance world that was kind of lurid kind of funny um didn't totally work for me, but you could tell, curious mind, clever guy.

And I love the idea of adapting a book like this into a movie and then focusing on making sure that it's entertaining and finding an amazing cast. Like half of these people I'd seen before, the other half I had not. I thought Forrest Goodluck in particular was my favorite part of the film. He was absolutely riveting.

You know, Ariella Barrera, who I mentioned is a star, is really, really strong as well. And some of these people, like, you know, you've seen Sasha Lane before. Yeah. And, you know, Ariella Barrera, she was in, like, The Runaways, the Hulu Marvel show. It's just bizarre to see her in a film like this that is, you know, whose politics is so clear and so defiant. And when I talked to them, I think I was asking basically dumb questions. It was like, were you guys nervous making a movie like this?

Like this is a very, it's unusual for a film like this to open in dozens or hundreds or thousands of movie theaters, you know, because of its politics. And they were kind of like, you're a lame old loser. No, I know. My instinct was a little bit, Bobby, have you seen this movie? Yeah, I saw it on opening night. you like it i loved it yeah i mean for a lot of the reasons that you guys are talking about but also like that i felt specifically so targeted by like just

the all of it being in the name like i saw it alamo in brooklyn which was like the most how to blow up a pipeline possible crowd to see this movie in um and yeah I did totally I did feel a little I felt old yeah watching these people but in like a good way in the sense of like the kids are all right and like this is a movie about like an uh an ideology that is only possible in youth. And it was really exhilarating and very cool. So I'm pleased that they made you feel really old. I think it's amazing that so many,

it had to pass through a lot of old people before it made it to theaters. Well, I mean, I talked with Goldhaber about that a little bit. And I think his strategy was very smart, which is that they only used a small number of producers and financiers on the movie. And then they showed the film at TIFF

and then the film was acquired out of TIFF by Neon. That being said, for us, it arrives at a fascinating time. I'm pretty well-informed on leftist texts. I've read a lot of this stuff. My ideology was very clear from basically ages 20 through 30. And then like all people, not like all people, like many people, you get older and you get older and

you get confronted by compromise over and over and over again in your life. And so to read a work of art like this and see it be released in a mainstream way in the medium that is so personal and emotional to me, to see an American movie or a Canadian film made for a mainstream audience with these ideas in it it and weirdly made me nostalgic for a person that I'm not anymore and so it's it's a really interesting um it's an interesting text I don't know if I Bobby I feel like we're always like posing these questions to you as the avatar even though you're you're you're pushing 30 we were making plans for your 30th yeah wow this push in 30 is close that's a little strong that's a little strong. That's a little strong.

I'm still at like my 27. You're Mike Trout. You're peaking. Like that's a great age for your baseball reference. Like I'm still, I got a couple years left. Okay. I just, I think it's interesting because there of course have been radical films in the past.

Like, you know, the Battle of Algiers feels like a very obvious comparison point for this movie. But those films are often about revolutions inside you know opposing um fascism and fascism in the face of uh you know massive nations this is a really small story about like what people could do if they wanted to if they put their mind to it um do you do you think that there's like a a wave of movies like this coming from from your cohort bobby i don't know if there's a wave of movies that are like as explicit like in the text of the film like right down to the title but i do feel like one thing in this movie that to me felt like it was made by people specifically in like my

generation or even younger in ariela barrera's case who's like three or four years younger than me at this point that's crazy that's crazy. Which is insane. Is that the different sort of like community and coalition building that it felt like this, this movie did a really good job of communicating is something that is like

really important to people who are like this politically inclined or just people who are around my age. Like all these people were very different. They came to this story

for different reasons and like even if it's not a movie that's maybe as politically motivated like this that feels like something that is a keystone of like younger storytelling is like making it make sense for why all of these different communities should come together for a story like this while also making the form fit the theme of the movie, I think is why it felt so effective. I think it's very well said. Yeah. I mean,

what's it, and what's so clever about the film is what you identified Bobby is done in that, like getting the crew together oceans way, but you know, we can have both. Yeah. It's like the,

it's not fun in the traditional word Vegas sense, but it's like, here is why this all would, would work. So it has, if not traditional storytelling elements, but it's, it's, why this all would work. So it has, if not traditional storytelling elements, but it's a really smart movie. It is. It's really smart. It's really compelling. I encourage people to check it out. I think it's expanding this week. Whether a movie

like that can be successful is also an interesting test, you know? And not just because of its ideas. I think that, you know, I raised the rage against the machine specter last week when we were talking about air. I feel like this is a very similar proposition. It's like, sure, the ideas are radical, but also it's really entertaining. And that's a way to get people, that's a way to incept concepts. Like a lot of great filmmakers do it very subtly. This movie is a lot less subtle, but it's very effective. I also, I mean, the structure structure of it like right down the score from

the very beginning was like pulsing it felt like this like a hand had just reached into my chest and was like pulling me through this story so even if you don't like care necessarily about the politics you don't agree necessarily about the politics of the movie it's really interesting when like a filmmaker can express the character's feelings like that so clearly with like the style of the movie making it because it's like it's climate anxiety that these characters feel and you feel anxious when you're in the theater i know that's not always like the cleanest sell but like movies are there to make you feel something and they intentionally wanted you to feel that way yeah and when i say oceans 11 don't

mistake that for gliding dolly shots moving through a casino. Like this is frantic, handheld camera, really up close, POV shots. It's in West Texas in the middle of nowhere. You can feel the heat on the characters. It's a really visceral movie in addition to being a really gripping movie. This is a good one. We've missed a lot this year. Why do you think we've missed so much?

Because there are small movies that didn't make $367 million worldwide. What do you think about this strategy of covering big movies that we're kind of mixed on? Should we just punt on that? People seem mad that we just keep talking about movies that we're like, it was okay. Well, I'm going to talk about every Ben Affleck movie at great lengths forever. And you can find another podcast if you don't want to listen to that. Beyond it, I don't know.

It's an interesting question because i think the expectation that you can only talk about things from the perspective of like a really adamant fan advocacy is like is is messed up internet brain and so people got to chill out a little bit on that i feel like i have i have understood this from both perspectives. I got feedback from people about the Super Mario Brothers episode. They were like, why didn't you say this movie was absolute dog shit? I was like, because I didn't think it was. The same way I thought Air was very, very good that had some flaw. But what we have had, with the exception of the two movies that we just discussed,

it's been a series of like, okay stuff. You know, like it was fun to celebrate Megan in January. Cause we were like, maybe this will be a good movie year, but Megan is still, it's okay. You know, it wasn't, it was not a lot of fun. It was, it was fun, but it was fine. And I'm not revisiting Megan anytime soon. And it does feel like we have had three full months of that was fine. You know, that that wasn't great and we're starting to get some exciting movies but even these films that we'll talk about now they're all pretty good but nothing's really breaking through yet and i'm not even i don't i'm not i'm not even concerned

trolling myself it's just notable that you can only say two and a half to three stars so many times before you get a little bored with that conversation. I mean, that's life. That's making art. That's watching things. Not everything is going to be showing up or how to blow up a pipeline or tar or Top Gun Maverick or something that we're excited about. It would be boring.

It would reduce the response if everything were just like awesome. And you and i are not people who walk in and are just like i'm only going to talk about things i'm only going to come at this from a perspective of enjoyment and fandom that we're not right we're not so i've never been in less in that phase of my life actually so sometimes So sometimes things are going to be, I had a good time. And sometimes things are going to be, I didn't have a good time. And let me say that I also think that there is great value in making something that people enjoy.

To, you know, go back to the Super Mario thing. But it's not easy to make something that people do enjoy and i think that there can be a form of art in that as well and i don't think that i had a good time is a dismissal of a movie it's just there are different ways to make art so we're in the stretch of the calendar year where people are you know making things that you go see and you're like huh cool or huh i don't know let's talk about a few of the pretty good things that we've seen yeah um coming out of sundance i mentioned rye lane to you yeah which is currently on hulu this one this is probably the best of the ones that we'll talk about here this is right in that second tier really fun movie it's about two people who've recently broken up with their partners

they meet cute in a bathroom then they basically spend the day together. They walk through London and just talk about their lives, talk about their relationships. It stars David Johnson and Vivian Apara. And I thought of you while I was watching it. No, it was delightful. Some really great rom-com set pieces, including a reunion with an ex and a benign breaking and entering.

You know, some great movie theater and also a dream flashback that reminded me a lot of worst person in the world. And I mean that in a positive way, just kind of of reinventing the visual language of how, you know, how you render these conversations and these feelings of two people like trying to get together, which is, you know, one of the oldest formulas in cinema and still one of my favorites. Great chemistry, really charming, really great to be in London and wandering around London. I'm around London. I'm pro-London. I think one of the exciting emerging stars from the show industry is David Johnson

and I know you were thinking of restarting on the industry. I started this weekend again. I'm in and then I started it before I watched Rylane

and I was like, oh, hey! Yeah, he's very, very good. He's very, very good in this movie too. It's directed by Rain Allen Miller. This is her first movie

and I'm excited. This is one first movie. And I'm excited. This is one of those, like, I can't wait to see what you do next sort of movies. Great production design. Incredible color. The costuming is wonderful. Like, it's a movie that pops. It's obviously a small film.

But feels like someone who could make something really beautiful. I sort of was like, where's this person's musical as I was watching it? Because of the way that it's staged. The boat scene also. Oh, that's another great one. as this person's musical as I was watching it because of the way that it's staged. The boat scene also, oh, that's another great one. Yeah. It really,

it makes use for a movie that is primarily two people talking. It is, it really gets out in the world. But also, you know, like post-COVID and post-everyone

just filming on backlots is really exhilarating. So this is, that's Rylane. It's on Hulu right now. Check that out. I saw a movie a couple of weeks ago called The Five Devils,

which is in theaters, but it's going to be on Mubi on May 12th. You know, Mubi's making some moves. Did you know that? They're acquiring more films. They're releasing more films. Decision to Leave. That was Mubi. I'm pro-Mubi.

They sent me a wonderful- I'm a Mubi subscriber. I am as well, of course. One thing that they did send me was the storyboard book for Decision to Leave. Oh, cool. So it was every single sketch for how Park Chan-wook crafted the film. It's an amazing piece of work. Anyway, The Five Devils is Lea Miceas,

who is the co-writer of some recent really good French films and has directed a couple herself. This film stars Adele Exarchopoulos, My Heart, and Sally Dremé and Swala Amati. And it's a very odd, kind of mystical, kind of fantastical, but also very grounded, haunted drama. It's about a young girl who has a magical sense of smell. The movie does not like spell out specifically these things I'm about to say to you. Okay.

But I'm going to explain them. It's more like Petit Maman level of fantasy than... Perfectly put, yes. It is a scarier and more intense version of that film, but it has that very similar essence. So that's a good comparison point. And this young girl uses her powerful sense of smell to sort of unpack this complicated relationship

between her mother, her father, and her father's sister who has just been released from prison. And through a series of flashbacks and through a series of sort of like time-traveling moves, the young girl sees

how these relationships have become complicated over the years. Really, really interesting movie. Not, doesn't totally stick the landing, but I thought amazing performance from Adele X. Archopoulos, who I love, who I talked about is in Passages,

which is coming out later this year. And she's really, she's really back. She's really, I mean, she's been working for 10 years since Blue is the Warmest Color, but it's nice to see her. So when that hits movie, I think people should check that out.

What did you think of Boston Strangler, which is on Hulu right now? We'll need to talk about kira knightley playing a boston woman from the 60s she does to me she just does the same american accent which is like flat affectation yes and it kind of like siphons off such a so much of her charm because she has such an amazing natural accent yes and it's tough the boston strangler is based on a true case which apparently is not uh totally what's portrayed in the movie which i'd like to talk about in a second did some wikipedia afterwards um but so it's geographically located in boston so she has to to play this role which it is Zodiac for Girls.

Sorry, I'd, you know, I'm allowed to say it. She has to do a Boston accent, and it's tough. You know, the Boston you can tell when people are putting it on. It's also, so it's about Keira Knightley plays a

reporter in a Boston newspaper in the 60s. She's stuck on the lifestyle desk because it's a 60s woman. And then she starts investigating a serial killer and, you know, threats and murder ensue. Carrie Coon is another investigative reporter who joins her. And, you know, basically they make some breakthroughs in the case. And then also everyone tells them that they're women and they need to go back to the kitchen, including Keira Knightley's wife. Watched this with my husband. And for the first 20 minutes, I was like, who would you like to play you in the movie adaptation of my life?

Like, who will you cast in this role, Zach? And then by the end, he was like, I'm not. The husband turns and he's like, you will not be putting me in your movie in this way. Just so you know. Well, the husband is tremendously patient through the first seven eighths of this movie and then and then he just like goes to new york and leaves her and the children in boston while a serial killer is calling and making threatening calls and also the police department has turned against her that is not safe that is that like i was just like what is our plan here everyone the movie has some flaws i i i enjoyed it as like a high-toned programmer you

know it it felt once again like maybe some of the performers were overqualified for this level of material i mean it's kira knightley carrie coon chris cooper and bill camp right these are the stars of this movie yeah those are four of the better living actors for like a cumulative five minutes but whatever where is his where's the other footage that he participated in? We need to use Bill Camp more is something I feel strongly about. Chris Cooper too, who basically is just like, you know, agitatedly removing his glasses frequently in this film. Like that's sort of what the role is as the frustrated editor. Put the headline in bigger tape.

It's kind of a parody, but it is oddly well made. You know, there's a very strong creative decision to not portray the actual like exploration of the women who were killed in this movie,

you know, because it's trying to move away from some of the more exploitative aspects of that. There was a 1968 version of The Boston Strangler that Richard Fleischer directed, which is a very odd movie,

is a fascinating artifact because it was made in 68 and The Boston Strangler that Richard Fleischer directed, which is a very odd movie, is a fascinating artifact because it was made in 68 and the Boston Strangler murders were not fully solved at that point. And so the film makes a lot of assumptions. Are you aware that they're not fully solved now? Well, I am in the aftermath of seeing this movie. And the theory that the movie puts forth is, I'm not really sure that that's actually the theory.

It's tenuous. Yeah, that's okay. I watched to the end of it and enjoyed it. It was like a, it was a Friday night movie that my husband and I watched together. Was it, it's frustrating when the something but girls movie is a much lower quality than the something. And it is hard to live up to Zodiac,

but it's not Ziac it's it's it's definitely not zodiac but again i would like to see what mad ruskin does next the writer and director you know there's definitely there's a there's a you know there's a veneer of quality to something that you know that i just maybe pick a different story because this story was a little too close to a story we really care about. Just two very quick recommendations. This is mean that you put this on the... I'm just going to say, I don't want to spend too much time on it. Yeah, but it's rude.

Well, I texted you on Friday and I was like, I'm very frustrated that One Fine Morning, the most recent film by Mia Hansen Love, is not available on VOD until Tuesday, which is the day this podcast is coming out. Because I would like to see it and include it on this roundup. And you were like, okay, tough break, and then just put it on the lineup, and are now going to do a little mini review. I won't even do a mini review. I'll just say it's the new film from Mia Hansen Love, whose last film, Bergman Island, was one of my favorite movies of 2021. She was on the pod talking about that film. I didn't love this film as much as I

loved that film. I think I saw this back at Telluride, which is why I had kind of lost touch with when it was coming out. But it is on VOD today. Maybe you can watch it and we can discuss it on the show. It stars Lea Seydoux, who is, of course, a magical performer. This is a blue is the warmest color reunion pod, you know, with all this Adele and Lea Seydoux. Let's keep it moving. So I had been aware of this film, Passive Fiction, and I had missed it through three different film festivals I attended in 2022.

It had screened at a series of festivals. It premiered at Cannes. It's directed by Albert Serra, Spanish filmmaker, one of the more renowned European filmmakers in the last 10 or 15 years. He did The Death of Louis XVI. He did Liberté.

He's done like a real art house european filmmaker and i pacifiction was on my list i was like i'm definitely gonna check it out i'm not sure when i'm gonna see it and then there was a story after the cesar awards the french oscars um where david fincher speaking of zodiac was being honored and second, through the star of this movie, there was a report that David Fincher's favorite film in years was passive fiction. And the reason that he watched this film is because it was nominated for one of the best picture for the Cesar Awards. It didn't win, but this very strange 165-minute simmering drama about effectively a government attache, a guy who basically makes meetings with people to get them to do what he wants on behalf of the government in Tahiti. That seems like one of the slowest and most boring kind of procedural governmental dramas

until it hits like a second gear about an hour in. And then the final hour, the final 40 minutes of the movie goes to a place of like anxiety and borderline apocalypse the likes of which I've never seen. It's an amazingly unusual movie. It demands extraordinary patience, but it's not surprising that a David Fincher would respond to a movie like this. And it's interesting because his reputation as a film consumer is that he is very hard on movies. He very rarely talks about

new releases that he thinks are good. In fact, he didn't officially go on the record to praise this movie. This is all secondhand, But it got my attention to watch this movie. I have liked Sarah's movies, but they exist in a kind of bubble of cinephilia that very rarely breaks through. This movie was released in theaters for a short period of time by Grasshopper. I think it will be on streaming services

probably pretty soon, VOD pretty soon. It does feature an you know an incredible performance by Benoit Majamel who's the the leading figure the high commissioner de Rolaire um hard movie to recommend because you know that only 10% of the people that you're recommending it to will click with it but those 10% might then make it one of their four favorite films on Letterboxd you know what I mean like it's that kind of a movie that okay it has like we've entered that territory it is in this film is in that territory Letterboxd. You know what I mean? Like, it's that kind of a movie that it has like a kind of... We've entered that territory. It is in...

This film is in that territory. You think Fincher likes Letterboxd? I think he has no idea what it is. Okay. I think he's like a much better... He's not that old. I bet... No, no, no.

I don't mean... I just think he's like... I'm spending my time curating my fourth home. He's not on it. Yes. He knows what it is. Don't make him sound like he's a Luddite. I don't think he's a Luddite.

I don't think he's quit society. No, I don't think so. I think he's just more interesting or more interested in things that are interesting like i i'm i love letterbox but i'm i hate myself you know i hate that i'm spending all this time there just wanted to be clear i i agree with everything you've just said i don't think david fincher i think he has true self-esteem okay you know not not not performative self-esteem. Okay. Yeah. Not performative self-esteem. And in order to have that, he has to be not online. And I respect that. I think you should watch Pacificion so that we can talk about it more in the future. Even though I think through the first hour, you will send me a text that's

like, why did you make me do this? Just going to put that out there. Okay. You've stopped responding to the texts that I send you during films. It's always at a time when I'm like, I have a child in my arm. Okay. You know, like I'm trying to eat a fork full of pasta, you know, and I just can't get through it. But I promise I'm thinking of you. Okay. Did you watch any of these other movies? No, because you didn't text me.

I watched all the movies that are in the films that are bad category. Okay. Oh, interesting. You want to talk about that? Well, let me just say three movies that I thought were like solid. You should have texted me about Sharper. Why didn't you? I wanted to like it

so much more. It's directed by Benjamin Caron who directed a lot of episodes of The Crown. And Andor. Julianne Moore. Yes. Sebastian Stan.

And there's a, it's a con artist taking on Manhattan billionaires. I'm just reading your description here. Such a good premise. Such an okay execution. Okay, well.

And it's just such a B-movie that, again, in a very similar vein to Boston Strangler, if you're looking to kill time one night, you want to see a new movie, you want to see Julianne Moore in a movie, John Lithgow in a movie, this is a movie that will do it. It's okay. It's just, it could have been a little bit better. And if it was a little bit better, it would have been a lot better. You know what I mean when I say that? I do.

I felt similarly about Tori and Lokita, which is the new movie from the Darden brothers. This film also premiered at Cannes. It felt a little bit like a film I had seen before from the Dardens. They're these Belgian filmmakers who have this, you know, massive career of making stories about underrepresented people or people, you know, kind of living on the poverty line or who have been, you know, disillusioned or disaffected by society. This is about two African immigrants, an 11-year-old and a 16-year-old who are kind of just trying to survive living in a Belgian city. And the movie has like some really traumatic aspects to its storytelling. It's really well made in this very intimate, almost documentary style that the Dardens have mastered.

But it just felt like I've, it's not, you've seen one, you've seen them all, but I've seen a bunch of Dardens. We don't talk about them ever on the show. I don't know why that is. Maybe I just have lost kind of interest in their filmmaking. But that film is out right now. The other, another film that's on VOD

that I think is good is Missing, which is a kind of spiritual anthological sequel to Searching which came out in 2019. This one stars Storm Reid, Nia Long, and Ken Leung also from Industry. And it's about a woman

like a young girl who's attempting to save her mother who's gone on a vacation with what seems like a suspicious boyfriend but of course just like Searching. The whole movie basically takes place on screens.

Yeah. So it is similar to the horror movie Unfriended. Did you see that you haven't seen this one yet? No, I haven't. Okay. This movie's pretty good. These movies are hard to make.

And so I'm more interested in the craft of how they make these movies necessarily than in whether the stories ultimately pay off. Did you think Murder Mystery 2 paid off? I couldn't be honest. One of the texts that I didn't send you, but almost sent, is like, why is Melanie Laurent in this movie?

But I was really excited when she showed up. You were one of three of our friends who sent me a text message about why is Melanie Laurent in this movie. You know what? Melanie Laurent deserves Netflix money, too. She deserves a beach house. Yeah. I agree. I hope.

I'm sure it's beautiful. The first half of this movie takes place at an Indian wedding. And so it does involve a scene where Adam Sandler is asked to do one of the choreographed dances at the wedding, but didn't learn the choreography ahead of time. That's, I chuckled. I'll be honest. I laughed a few times. Yeah. I even laughed at Jennifer Aniston, who is, as I've said not really my particular flavor yeah um but this was not good and the sandman is in my heart forever i love that guy i hope he

creates wealth for all of his friends forever i just i it's they filmed it it's the first half is set on like a private island i believe it was somewhere filmed somewhere in Hawaii but also on screens. And then the second half is in Paris but only at night which like what's the point? You know? Half the movie looks like

it was shot on green screen. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. At least the original Murder Mystery had some lovely scenery. It was on a boat, right? Yeah.

It was primarily on a boat and so yeah. I know why this movie was made. The first film was extremely successful and it seems like this one Had some lovely scenery. It was on a boat, right? Yeah. It was primarily on a boat. And so, yeah, I felt, yeah. I know why this movie was made. The first film was extremely successful. And it seems like this one has been extremely successful. The Sandler Netflix movies really work. They're kind of representative, I think, of what our broader thoughts are about the Netflix movie.

You know, that there is something kind of easy and wallpaper-y about them. You're with people that you like. Low-stakes story. A kind of goofiness, but it kind of vanishes, it dissolves upon completion. And looks increasingly garbage-y. Yeah, it's not great.

Tell me about a good person, because I haven't seen this one. Whew, okay. Written and directed by Zach Braff, starring his then-partner, Florence Pugh. So they were together when the film was made.

They were no longer together by the time of film promotion. I honestly thought they did a very mature and professional job. Two pros. Yeah. This is a movie about a Florence Pugh is a woman from New Jersey living in New Jersey. As all Zach Braff characters are. And then she is a part of a truly tragic accident car accident and then as a result uh becomes like a dependent on pain medication opioids and so it is about her

trying to get her life back in the in the wake of all. So it is a bit of an opioid addiction story. It's a family drama because she is involved with all of the people who were affected by the accident. And it also stars Morgan Freeman. And the scenes featuring Florence Pugh and Morgan Freeman together, or the scenes when Florence Pugh and Morgan Freeman are talking about their recovery process, are pretty remarkable because it's Florence Pugh and Morgan Freeman. to say and participate in some truly operatic like nonsense scenes um that i at one point i was like what is going on here there's a party scene if you see this movie you'll also know what's going on so and it's it's not really plausible uh really anything that's happening in it but florence pew and morgan freeman are good actors uh that is the single reason why I want to see this movie yeah is to see them interacting can I just share a maybe a solitary opinion sure I like the movie Garden State okay kind of unreservedly good and I don't know if

that's contrarian at this point I don't think it's contrarian i think it's a honest acceptance not of like of who you are in the world you know like you were that age when that movie came out yes and that's a that's certainly a factor interested in if not like the particular references and and output of that movie then like then the style of expression yeah i and i it's is not without flaw yeah i and i recognize the flaw but i think it's okay i think that there's a little bit of a dearth of sincerity. And I think Braff is sincere to a fault, but is trying to do something that reminds me a little bit of what Lawrence Kasdan did and what Ron Howard did. There's a kind of like American melodrama that is really hard to do well.

This is like melodrama, but to your point about sincerity, which I would replace with sentimentality. This literally opens with Morgan Freeman doing a monologue about model trains. And then model trains become a major plot point. Just like in The Fablemans. Okay. Sounds great. All right. I mean, of course you're right like critically

speaking zach braff is is not the most subtle or deft artist and i'm sure that this movie is treacly as hell just like all the other two films that he's directed are really it's not just that it's treacly though it's just kind of like i don't believe you i don't believe any of the situations um that you've put these characters in which then undermines even the emotions that they're expressing. Speaking of not knowing where it needs to go, I did watch Shazam Fury of the Gods. Did you see this film? I couldn't. I didn't because the Mia Hansen love text exchange on Friday started with you texting me that it was finally available on VOD on Friday.

So I could never get myself to actually make time to go to a theater to see this movie. I thought about it a lot, couldn't do it. And then this weekend, I opted to spend time with my family. I don't blame you. There was no upside to watching this. So a little bit of backstory. I really enjoyed the first Shazam movie.

I remember. So much so that I had David Sandberg, the director of the movie, on the podcast. Or maybe I had him on for Annabelle Creation. I can't remember. But he directed two horror movies, Annabelle Creation and Lights Out, I think his first film, which was based on a short film that he had made with his wife and his producing partner. And so he made this big DC movie,

but it was also, part of its charm was that it was like a modest teen comedy that had superhero elements. And then this new Shazam movie, which is kind of like the residue of an old administration of DC movies. They just turned this charming teen comedy into just

a full-blown superhero movie with Helen Mirren and Lucy Liu as the villains and this team of superheroes who were all of Billy Batson's friends who were teenagers who at the end of the first film got transformed into Shazam-esque heroes. And then this film goes way deep into the mythology of Shazam. And man, I thought it was just awful. Like just awful. And had none of the charm, none of the cleverness. I thought it looked terrible.

I thought the CGI was abominable. And, you know, we use this film as like a pivot point a couple of weeks ago for saying like, is this it for superhero movies? Are they cooked? Since we had that conversation, James Gunn has publicly said like, America it for superhero movies? Are they cooked? Since we had that conversation James Gunn has publicly said

like America is experiencing superhero fatigue. It does feel like there has been this I'm experiencing James Gunn fatigue but Brace yourself. I know.

I mean I had to watch the Guardians trailer before Super Mario Brothers. I mean Guardians 3 is coming soon and then James Gunn's next movie

is a Superman movie. So he's not going anywhere anytime soon. You know this one isn't his fault obviously although his his partner peter saffron in running dc now was the lead producer on this movie and it was it's just really poor and i don't want to draw too strong a conclusion about where our culture is heading long term but it's fascinating the movie like this is on VOD in like 20 days. You know, it says a lot, I think, about what the studio thinks of this movie, which is that they needed to really cut bait. Because movie theaters don't even want to keep it in their theaters. Because no one's going to see it.

Also, Zachary Levi, who I thought it was like clever casting. For him, it's like a wide-eyed. It was a version of Big. You know, it was like, what if was a version of big you know it was like what if a teenager became an adult um and he just sucked in this one and i'm sure some of that was informed by how annoying he seems publicly but also he just was way over playing the character and he's also in the character of shazam more time than he's not you know than than than the younger actor yeah yeah and again that balance was just

way off so god damn it all right i just i can't believe i watched this this weekend i can't either what time of day did you watch it uh saturday night from 9 p.m to 11 p.m eileen fell asleep and i was just like sure okay and and at no point it's like 10 o'clock and you're like i could do something else with my time now. I feel that way every day when I'm watching something. I know. I mean, it's like succession and pacifiction are the only times when I feel like I'm making a good choice. Okay.

And every other time, I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Okay. All right. I felt similarly when I watched Tetris. I added this. I know, I see. Because I did watch all of it. Because at some point, it became, for me, an exercise in being like, is this all this is? Are they going to figure out something else to do with this?

So Tetris is about the supposedly true backstory of the game Tetris, which was a game I like a lot. Who doesn't? And have been singing the theme song nonstop. Feel free to fire away. And I will say one nice thing about the film is that it uses the Tetris theme song well, and in that it has been stuck in my head since I saw it. Tetris was invented in the late 80s in the Soviet Union.

And so then apparently there were some geopolitical issues about rights and how Tetris would be exported from the Soviet Union to the world at large. And the movie sells itself as like a spy thriller. Like I thought I was sitting down to Bridge of Spies, but Tetris. And I was like, cool, cool. And instead I was sitting down to just the scenes between Matt Damon and Chris Messina in air, but on fun with people just yelling, I need handheld rights for like eight hours.

Taryn Edgerton plays the video game salesman who is trying to bring the rights from the Soviet Union to the U.S. and is one of the worst negotiators I've ever seen. Just walks into rooms and is like, but what about the rights for the Game Boy that you didn't even know existed? And then they just yell about deals some more. They just, it's just people yelling handheld rights in rooms in like bad Soviet suits for two hours.

I have nothing to add. I didn't think it was good. But like, what? I don't know why this was made. It's one of those things when you're editing a piece of writing, everyone, at some point, this is just like some free writing tips at the end of this podcast. You want to check for like word repetition, right? You don't want to just be saying the same thing the same way over and over again.

You don't want to rely too much on the source either, but you just need to vary your language. So one thing that you can do is control F handheld writes and see how many times it's said in a script. And if it's more than 200, maybe you should throw in some other detail. Just a suggestion. You should do, you know,

Stephen King's on writing a memoir of the craft. You should do one of those, but for movies. And it should just be a series of chapters about Control-F and the power of Control-F. I'm just saying. Control-X and Control-V are so powerful in my life. They're just a huge part of my life. But on the flip side, don't use that thesaurus, especially not the one in Microsoft Word or Google Docs. No, I mean,

I just want people, that's not, you need to change the whole sentence structure so you can, you know, have like something feel fresh. I want more. Come on. Editor Amanda, give me more tips. I'm just trying to. Keep feeding me. If you use the thesaurus, you're just going to sound like a silly person who was just studying for the SATs. Okay. You know? What about that scene in Jason Isbell, Running With Our Eyes Closed, where he and his wife were debating present participle? It was wonderful.

It was so good. I really related to it. Real quality. Amanda Shires throughout that movie just really does the Amanda name proud, is what I have to say. Few people do at this point. So we take any good Amanda we can get. What else are we doing

coming up on this show? Oh, we have a very special episode coming up later this week, actually. We've been getting a lot of Bobby on the pod. We're getting a whole lot more because on Friday

we're going to have our first three-way movie swap. And some good creativity involved in this one. It's about time for Bob to finally watch casablanca are you excited i probably would have watched it like two years ago if i wasn't banned from watching it for in favor of content we will be giving you the completion of that content so

amanda is pitching casablanca to bobby obviously bobby what movie are you pitching to us? I'm pitching the Robert Rodriguez spy thriller Spy Kids. So, completing the spy theme, the subtle spy theme. That's right. I'll be pitching 1979's The In-Laws, one of the funniest movies of the 70s. And we'll talk about

generational spyhood. I can't wait. Are you excited i i really am i set a date with my wife tonight to re-watch casablanca oh that's i can't remember the last time bobby yet are you gonna watch it solo or no i think phoebe wants to watch it too okay great we're gonna watch that's really nice yeah okay she hasn't seen it we did watch we watched spy kids no she's seen it i think it's her dad's favorite movie. So I think she's seen it maybe like a hundred times. Which is insane that I haven't seen it yet.

I didn't pick some random. You asked for this woman's wife in marriage and you haven't seen her father's favorite film? What are you doing? Listen, I tried. But then I was banned

from watching it. So we did watch Spy Kids together and she fell asleep. So maybe an indictment of the film. I thought it was clever still. I saw that Spy Kids is a crisp 89 minutes i got excited about that just as you were talking google the in-laws to make sure there wasn't some sort of like six hours long no it's an hour and 43 minutes god bless you and it is also available on vod and make sure there wasn't some sort of like me having to drive to your house to

borrow the blu-ray the film has been issued by the criterion collection okay a rare studio comedy issued by the criterion collection I once saw saw Peter Falk at dinner in Miami is that a fact yeah my dad was I was with my dad my dad was like that's Peter Falk most excited he's ever been I mean we will talk about it when we talk about it, but Peter Falk has got my heart and has always had my heart. That should be a fun episode. Bobby looks really confused right now. Have you not heard of Peter Falk or Miami?

No, no, no, I have. I was looking to see if Casablanca was showing anywhere in theaters, and it doesn't appear to be until June. No, sadly. I've never seen it in theaters. It is showing as a part of the Turner Classic Movies Festival in Los Angeles the weekend after. This coming weekend.

This will be kind of a preview for that. Yeah. But it's in the middle of the day and I have a child, so I can't go. Let's go into my conversation now with Michelle Williams and Kelly Reichert. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. Delighted to have Kelly Reichert and Michelle Williams here on the show.

Thank you guys for being here. This is your fourth collaboration. I'm sure people are asking you about this incredible partnership that you have. Here's something I'm curious about. When you're writing with John, Kelly, are you always thinking of Michelle before you agree to make the movie? Do you call Michelle and say, I have an idea for a movie? Like, how does that work?

Well, that's, gee, all day I've been answering that question. I have to sit next to Michelle and say, no, Michelle. She wasn't thinking of me. She was trying to think of somebody else. And then she just sort of circles her way back to me. I was never thinking of another actor, but thinking of uh not that you're not real people you're real people but um it's okay thinking of real people

um no i mean thinking of uh well um artists for sculptors from different periods, thinking about people that worked at Black Mountain College, thinking about artists in our own life that we know locally and or in New York, thinking about somewhat my colleagues at Bar, just thinking about the way different people work and the way in tactile mediums that are more immediate than filmmaking. And so I wasn't, I don't really turn to thinking of Michelle until I'm at that stage of, I mean, I think when we did Meek's cutoff, we always knew that Emilyily was michelle but usually

it's just my wall is sort of filled with a mishmash of different people from different eras that will eventually be you know something i'll give to michelle and we'll uh start working from there uh but it really coming up with who the character is, is really not like you start at an end point. It's a process and it's, you know, what about the, you know, it changes all the time and it's just a million coffees and walking sessions with John Raymond. Maybe it's a little like so-and-so or a little like so-and-so. And then I kind of want to, I just had a book of women artists and that was in the first discussions were about michelle of course and um and that picture of lee bonacue was a really easy door for me to walk through with seeing michelle in the part michelle um now that kelly has insulted you for like the fifth

time today i'm one i'm curious like do you like to be thought of for a part? Do you like it when someone calls you and says, I see only you in this part? Or do you prefer to not necessarily audition, but have a little bit more open space and imagination to fill in a role that someone hasn't immediately thought of whatever it is they think you bring to a part? She's got plenty of room to fill in. There's plenty of room for michelle to the process isn't over when michelle comes into it it's just another part of the process and it's still a forming process right and i don't know she's not even talking to other directors i don't even know what you're talking about um well i'm sitting here hoping that things like that yeah you know it's funny though i never hear i never hear about like what kelly is working on while she's working on it you know i don't get little whispers of hey i

might have a thing for us or i'm you know i i don't i don't hear um i don't hear little inklings along the way i just i get that text or I get that phone call and then along comes a script. And, but Kelly's right. It's, it's the beginning of the process. I mean, she and John have put in a tremendous amount of work, obviously, but then there's more that lies ahead and then we find that uh together um and i like you know i i like to be i like to adjust myself and be be able to suit myself for all kinds of different work environments you know they each ask something different of you what a how it you have to inhabit different worlds it's a director's medium and you have to know how to you know populate these different universes that they

create so like what I might do for Kelly might be different than what I would do for somebody else so you know knowing how knowing what Kelly wants knowing what Kelly is inspired by knowing what she's like thinking about at that moment is really important to me. So I ask you a lot, you know, what to sort of like train my eye to see what you're seeing. So the act of being an artist is I think often portrayed or even considered like mystical or, and some, and I think some people can perceive it as pretentious at times, but one of the great things about the film is it is like the physical act of making something is a huge part of how you tell the story.

So, you know, Kelly, I was hoping you could talk about making that a part of the storytelling and then Michelle, basically how you prepared and executed on that, like how you, you know, did the work of being an artist on, on film. Um, how we prepare for it. I mean, I'm sort of a, uh, to, uh, much maybe to, well, whatever, whatever judgment, uh, you know, I'm, I'm very nuts and bolts person. Um, so, uh, and, uh, you know, wanted to get across the everyday work as opposed to the big show or whatever it is,

just like what it is every day to have a practice that you need to, on days you feel like it and on days you don't feel like it, that you sit down and work. and what gets in the way of that. And what are the nagging things that are, uh, in your, also in your world that call for your attention and your time and distract you, but also might be the things that feed you. Um, so balancing all those things was kind of what it, uh, was all about. And, um, I can, I experienced that with, you know, all the different stages of filmmaking and they're all different, you know, um, but, uh, yeah, just, you know, getting down to work every day is the core of it all. Michelle, what about for you? Did you spend time with other artists?

What went into becoming Lizzie? The woman whose work we use in the film is an artist, Cynthia Latsu, who lives in Portland, Oregon. And, um, Kelly's been aware of her work for a really long time and she's pretty big deal. And, and in the town, right. People, everyone knows who she is and they're aware of, you know, how, how special, how super special her work is. Um, and I, we, we got set up over zoom and Kelly, they sent me a 10 pound bag of clay. So I couldn't avoid it. I had to sit down with it and all these fun implements. And then

we zoomed and Cynthia would show me how to use these things and then watch me try to make something with my hands and give me little assignments. And then once I got to Portland, I spent a lot of time with her in her studio, watching her, watching how she works, watching her make these sculptures, watching this clay become animated and feel like it was like it was breathing and it was just like caught in this moment you know suspended in in action forever and I was so incredibly moved by how by how she made the work she's very swift when she makes she's decisive it's there's like vigor behind it you know it's not a careful tedious thing when you watch her make these sculptures, but you know how many hours of careful, tedious work have gone in, have laid the groundwork for this woman to then be able to, after all this time, create something this quickly and this assuredly. So watching that kind of spirit in her and in the room and in these sculptures was a big part of my process. I really liked just that practical part of things

and, you know, the sort of like you create, people see it, and then another season begins. And it did kind of remind me a little bit of what it must be like for folks like you making a movie, you know, or sort of like you prepare, you like for folks like you making a movie you know or sort of like you prepare you have an idea you shoot the movie you promote it it premieres and then you make another movie or tv show or whatever i mean were you thinking of that kelly and it skipped right over i'm sorry i'm sorry i know that's important i'm sorry yeah sound design it's a whole section in there yeah and then well by the time you're promoting

your a film you're uh you're working on something else you know otherwise like you would uh i mean promoting a movie it's great stuff but you're not actually making you know it's not like when you're a band you're on tour and then you play every night and you make something not really um making anything so you got to have something else to kind of um but you're participating in me making something this is as close as i come that's right that's right all right that's good yeah um uh Yes. Speaking of making, you know, the other work that's featured in the film is by the artist Michelle Segret and that Joe Hong plays her, the character of Joe, Lizzie's friend. And so spending time with Michelle was another. I mean, obviously, Hong spent time with her. But I also made a short film of her working

in her studio when we were working on the script and um and so chris blauvelt and i got to spend some time with her before just to see what just to see what it was what her practice was like and what goes into it and um and you know i was just trying to figure out how I would film this. And I, and I also spent time shooting film of Jessica Hutchins, who has the glass work in the film, who's a sculptor and whose studio is right next to the camera house in Portland. So I ended up just making a lot of, spend a lot of time at Jessica's place just because there's so much planning and film work uh

and then you go to Jessica's place and people just making stuff look what I made today I made this this afternoon I'm gonna make that you know just just just making touching it make it done so gratifying seems so gratified as what much longer process, you know, four years for this project. So it was nice seeing getting to dip into how other people get to make stuff. I also really enjoyed just when Lizzie does actually show her work. She's kind of like doesn't seem super excited about the big day. There's not a lot of joy. The biggest days, the best times of the biggest days are afterwards. My favorite part is like afterwards when you're back at the hotel or wherever, you know, just like or walking home after the event and just sort of rehashing it probably with John Raymond rehashing the, the night.

Like I really love the, I love the rehash of it all. I think more than the hash or air and you're comfortable. Yeah. Like the pressure's done. The work is done. The thing has happened. It's all said and done i really um yeah i really uh i like that a lot the film's ending like kind of reflects that beautifully actually that's a very um uh that's a definite reflection of uh john and myself after walking home from a million things uh yeah definitely that's the that's the best part so this is your i thought your your funniest film and you know like you know i said michelle you guys have made a bunch of movies together and i revisited them

before chatting with you and they're quite severe and quite quite serious at times and this one is uh you know with judd on set and andre Andre and seeing Heather Lawless and all of these folks who are so just sort of naturally their presence is so humorous. Like, was the set much different than the previous films that you'd made? Was the energy different? What was it like? And it was one day got up to 115 degrees on set. So it was, it was a summer film, which is very unusual for us. But the place where we are shooting the Oregon college of arts and crafts, which is this really fantastic school. That's now defunct. Sadly, it was a big, important place in the Pacific Northwest for ceramics and all kinds of art but um particularly ceramics um uh we got to be in this uh space it was where our production office was set up and it was also the schools we were shooting at we got to kind of take over this

whole place and make a whole skull the school was empty so we got to kind of take over this whole place and make a whole school. The school was empty. So we got to create an entire art school and people were coming in and making art that was going to be for the classrooms. So more and more people started coming in and filling up the rooms to make art. And it became, and then the actors who were going to play the students started coming around and they had to learn everything. And they were kind of stuck there because it was COVID. So it was really, you know, you had to be all in or all out. And so they were, it became virtually a school. It became a place of people making stuff all over the place. I could walk around each day and see things getting further and further along, new things getting started, new people coming in and learning how to do stuff.

And that was a really great, good vibe thing. There were hardships. There were hard things but that was uh really uh does what happened on set make it like the movie funnier i don't know i wonder about that i was that has that been the case for you michelle you know i mean this was a we've made some the first movie that we made wendy and lucy was a crew of 13 people and first movie that we made Wendy and Lucy was a crew of 13 people and then after that we went out to the desert and made Meek's Cutoff which was a real death-defying um filmmaking experience um that was the hardest and yeah and then uh well, certain women was insanely hard because it was so cold. And then Michelle was in the middle.

And when Michelle came, it went up 20 degrees to like, it was the most beautiful days of the shoot. Michelle was there, which was so easy. Those were, everyone was like, oh, it was like, it was a little, that was a little paradise. Yeah. But this was just that. By comparison to all of them, this was like very pleasant. Yes. Yes.

Well, also, you know, we shooting five day weeks now, which makes a huge difference. We used to do six weeks, but. Yeah. And I mean, everyone, we had a fantastic crew i mean super fantastic crew and the town was very generous to us um we got a lot of art in that film people were really nice to us yeah when you and john are talking about a new film is there a part of you and i felt like first cow there was a like signs of this but were you like i want to make something happier or like i don't know hopeful is the right word but something that is a different tone

not so much a downer well we always say like you end up living whatever you're making i end up living whatever we're making it just happens every time uh being in the desert with bruce greenberg being the the extreme of that um but so john is always saying to me you know we should do something um that will make you happy and i say humbug, you know, no, but First Cow was a very delightful film because it happened really fast. And it was in the fall. It was very beautiful. And so it was really easy. And this was also another film where you could go home at night and we were trying to it was really dark days when we made this movie. And we were trying to, yeah, bringing some levity to our world. It was, yes, that was, it was no time to like, bringing levity seemed appropriate for our lives. Michelle, does that factor in for you

when thinking about taking a part? Is it like, I need to work with my friends and I need to have a happy time as opposed to a more challenging or punishing kind of role or set that would be like more of a struggle? There's not, there's no lack of struggle, believe me. Like it's not, we have a great crew and there's so many lovely people but

I never but maybe it's different for you did you were you struggling I was struggling were you struggling no I wasn't you weren't struggling everyone's having a great time around me all the time I don't know I mean I like I think it takes all types and I don't know you know there's I think there is bound to be tension in a creative experience so okay if that happens and yeah if you can work with your friends and have a nice time that's uh optimal but I also think like movies are so strange because you, it's such a, it's a very short burst of time that you're actually making the movie.

So I can tolerate pretty much anything for two or three months, you know, that's okay. That's not my life. Like, and it's one, and it won't even be my entire year. It just is going to be be it's pretty livable though i have to say our situation is pretty yeah this is just particularly nice yeah portland in the summer is just it's well it's on fire now so it's not even getting i mean it's portland is literally on fire i mean poor portland it's taken a bit of a hit since COVID,

but no, it's just that, you know, I have to quit talking. Everyone's like, don't talk about Portland anymore. Nobody wants showbiz in Portland. Really? Except for people do.

Cause everyone lives off. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. Talk it up. It's a great place to live and work. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is. It's a great place to live and work. Yeah, it is.

Should we send that to the Portland Travel Advisory Board? Well, I'll tell you this. It's a good time to put it. The film commission there has been, they're super supportive they really they they are great um it is a good place to make films and there's an insanely great camera house there uh turner camera yeah there you go yeah come to portland make your movies michelle you mentioned um wendy and lucy 15 years this year for that film, which is like bizarrely prescient in many ways about I think how a lot of people are living in this country and

the idea of wealth gap becoming much more, I think, conscious in people's minds. And a lot of the ideas seem to be resonating very deeply. Just rewatching it with my wife last night night i think we were double struck by it um how do you both think about that movie at this stage of your lives thank you thanks for yeah thanks for pressing play on that one again um i don't know i watched the front line about the banks last night it's very it's not uplifting um but i'm glad wendy and lucy i mean it's sad that it holds up in that way but yeah it seemed like we were um it's funny to think of where we thought we were when we were making that movie and actually no we thought we were in the like dark days of the bush years and no those look like the good old days i mean not really but

uh the um gap hasn't closed i mean i guess that's what i would say about portland especially it's like i mean i guess it's not the way everywhere the gap is huge really high rents and an insane amount of homelessness. Yeah. But I never go back to that movie because my beloved dog, I can't even watch it. Yeah. That was, that's Lucy.

That was my Lucy. That was Kelly's Lucy. Yeah. Oh, in the film. Yeah. Oh, incredible performance,

honestly. Yeah. She's a good girl. good girl yeah um but well that's um thanks for going back and watching yeah my pleasure um are you are you gonna make another film together gee whiz i hope so i'm just trying to put some pressure on this relationship in this conversation i just uh as is andy warhol and say health is wealth i always think we're being jinxed when someone asks that question health is well we get to michelle you would though oh yeah she knows she knows the answers yeah yeah just waiting on a script not a phone call but a script um we end every episode of this show guys by asking uh filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen you guys seen anything good lately yeah but okay i saw it on criterion is that

allowed of course it could be released anytime thanks uh passionate friends. Oh yeah. Can you tell me about it? Why did you like, what did you respond to? Oh, it's incredibly shot. Yeah. The filmmaking is amazing. I guess I responded to the filmmaking.

It's beautiful. Wow. Claude Rains, who cares? You know, it's got Claude Rains in it. It's, I just didn't know it.

I mean, I have to say they do keep turning up films that I haven't seen before. Well, it's uh i just didn't know it i mean i have to say they do keep turning up films that i haven't seen before it's quite uh um but that's not going out to the movies be better to say something you saw at the movies i'm really i haven't seen any of the new films of the world um something i did see some what did i see uh oh you know what i saw that i loved but it hasn't come out yet tell me um uh the jerry lee lewis doc that ethan cohen made oh did you see it did you see it at can i mean i know you guys are a can with this movie no i saw it in a secret way but fantastic film i hope it comes out i know people mean, I'm not saying he's a great guy, but I love the way that doc is made. Beautiful doc.

That's exciting. I'm looking forward to that. Michelle, what about you? Have you seen anything you like? I haven't. I've got two babies. By the time I get two babies in bed, I'm'm right behind them I hear you I have a 20 month old um so you feel me you understand I'm with you I get it um well thank you so much to both of you congrats on showing up I thought it was wonderful thank you so much thanks for watching watching all of them yeah thank you guys Thank you to Michelle Williams and Kelly Reichert and to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode.

As we said, big time movie swap coming later this week. Casablanca, The In-Laws, and Spy Kids. We'll see you then.