The Big Picture - ‘Thunderbolts*’ Is Marvel’s Return to Form. Is It Too Late?

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by their superhero correspondent, Mallory Rubin, to cover the latest installment of the Marvel Cinematic Universe with Jake Schreier’s, ‘Thunderbolts*’ (2:04). They praise the strong performances from Florence Pugh and Sebastian Stan, and dive deep into some spoilers to project which key characters could play a critical part going forward (18:15). Lastly, they have a big-picture conversation about the MCU and debate whether this return to form is too late to course-correct the state of Marvel (1:17:09). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Mallory Rubin Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts, 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J-Lo, Kanye, sure. And now this show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s.

Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 Songs That Explain the 90s colon the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 songs that explain the 90s colon the 2000s, preferably on Spotify. ["The Big Picture," by Sean Finnesse and Amanda Dobbins plays.] I'm Sean Finnesse. I'm Amanda Dobbin. And this is the Big Picture conversation show about Thunderbolts. Mallory Rubin is here.

Long awaited return. What was the last time you were here? Hmmmm. Complete unknown? Dylan? Yeah, I think so. But the last time the three of us were together was Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones and the Battle of Destiny.

Wow. Is that the last time we've potted together? I believe so. Whoa, that's the summer of 2023? That's a long time ago. Too long, I would say. I think so. Well, you know, Mallory and I took you to task

for some of your opinions, so it seems like you didn't wanna revisit that. What opinions? We did the same for his takes on quantum mania, which the three of us also shared together, cause Sean was very pro. I was mid-pro. Very pro.

I was like open to it. I guess Quantumania is more recent, right? Oh, no. I think that was a similar time. They're in the same era. It is an elegant segue, though, because Quantumania, which was... Quantumania was February of 2023.

Yeah, a film that was more or less rejected, despite being framed as a significant and important part of the Marvel story. I thought it was just fine, but most people didn't like it. Most people haven't liked Marvel movies in quite a while. Obviously, Mal, a lot of what you do on House of R is tracking the progress or lack thereof of Marvel storytelling.

It's been a rocky road last couple of years. Thunderbolts comes to us with, I think, modest anticipation, but a sort of buoyant optimism, I would say. Does that seem accurate? At least I've been projecting that towards you on this show. Yes, and I would say that the community at large

seems optimistic for Thunderbolts and then downright ravenous for Fantastic Four, which is another Marvel sort of... What phase are we in now? Well, this is the conclusion of phase five. Thunderbolts is the last film of phase five, and we will be heading into phase six. But we're in the multiverse saga. Right, and we're at like...

Things are changing, right? You know, we're on the precipice, and these are two important films, both for, you know, we're on the precipice and these are two important films both for Marvel's business propositions and also, as I gather, for the Marvel fandom and the story and the future of the many humans in the many multiverses. I had it. I had it.

I honestly though, she nailed it. I was there. She nailed it. And then I was like, oh. You weren't making any faces or being weird and then all of a sudden you just, your brain stops. One multiverse and lots of universes inside of one multiverse. I find myself here on this podcast talking so sincerely about this.

I would like to ask Amanda a question. Okay. How many MCU movies do you think there have been? What number was Thunderbolts? Okay. 32? Really close. Pretty close. 36.

Okay, oh, interesting. Wow. It's a lot. Okay. We've been doing this together for a while. I have seen almost all of them. You've probably seen all of them. No, I haven't seen the Doctor Strange movies. I don't know.

I missed the first one. I just, I don't know what happened. You would have so many takes on the sling ring. You have got to watch. And then I saw a I missed the first one. I just, I don't know what happened. You would have so many takes on the sling ring. You have got to watch. And then I saw a preview for the second one. And I learned that Rachel McAdams was in it, which was pretty exciting. But I was on leave for the second one.

Cause I think I saw the preview at Spider-Man No Way Home. Was that the good one? I think all the Spider-Man ones are great. But yes, yes, yes. Spider-Man No Way Home, which we saw together,? I think all the Spider-Man ones are great. But yes, yes, yes. Spider-Man, No Way Home, which we saw together, remember? We also potted on that together. One of my favorite Big Pick memories, because Sean and I were honestly talking for quite a while

about Matt Murdock, and you said to us, what the fuck is wrong with you? There are three Spider-Men in this movie. You did bury that lead. We're just trying to make a podcast. Sure, but I think I did that with it. That was a sensation of a movie, made a lot of money. We all three enjoyed it.

And I think what we liked about it was that all the Spider-Men were there together and having nostalgia. And then you guys were talking about some guy who's a lawyer. He's a lawyer and a superhero who's actually in the news in 2025 because Daredevil is back on Disney Plus and you know this conversation may seem like a side road to Thunderbolts but in fact, I think what it is is like

Ten years of friendship in Los Angeles going to see Marvel movies. We've seen a lot of these movies together over the years I've certainly gone through quite a journey with my fandom of Marvel and this kind of storytelling. Yeah. And I would love to love these movies, you know? That's really where my heart is, even when they're absolutely terrible. I'm not happy that they're terrible, but I think you got to call a spade a spade. And the last five or six, I just don't think have been very strong. And I'm not going to get on this podcast and tell you that Thunderbolts is the best movie of the year because I don't think that it is. But it's in the right direction. That was my take on it. So,

the movie is directed by Jake Schreier, who has not really directed anything quite like this. The most recent big project he was associated with was Beef, the award-winning series on Netflix, which is a great show. It's written by Eric Pearson and Joanna Callow, who is also one of the co-showrunners of The Bear. It's cinematography by Andrew Draws Palermo. I'm saying these names because all of these names are not names you typically hear when you see a Marvel movie. This is something that you're doing the A24. I mean, they did set us up for this.

They leaned into the fact that, you know, the guy who edited this movie edited Minari. That's not something you might expect. I'm not saying that this movie is like that, but we'll get into it. In addition to that, the cast is full of some familiar faces, but also some, I guess, more respected names than you necessarily see at the front of some of these movies, in particular, Florence Pugh and recent Academy Award nominee Sebastian Stan, Wyatt Russell is in this film, Olga Kirilenko, Lewis Pullman, Geraldine Viswanathan, David Harbour, Hannah John-Kamen, and Julie Louis-Dreyfus.

Thunderbolts, who are the Thunderbolts? What is this crew relative to the canon that you know and understand better than anybody? And who are they in these movies? Because they are a little bit different. Yeah, I would say that was one of my big questions heading into this actually was how pertinent would the comics canon be? Because in addition to, hey, look at all of these people associated

with your favorite like letterbox film bro classics who are making this movie, it's gonna be different. Like come cinephiles and rejoice. It had an asterisk at the end of the title the entire time. And so there was, when are we doing spoilers? Not yet. Okay, I will like not get into that, but I will say there was like pretty rampant speculation

the entire time about what that might signal, what that might mean. Is that an indication that this is like not necessarily the Baron Zemo forge? Like it was never gonna be that at this point in the MCU. Though Zemo's like, you know, he's out there, he's kicking. Daniel Bruehl's character. Oh. Baron Zemo.

Where, from what film? Captain America, The Winter Soldier. Civil War. Civil War. And then more recently, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier television show. Yes. Which is one of the properties that has the-

Good for Daniel Bruhl's TV work. Good for Daniel Bruhl. You probably saw the clip of him dancing. No, but that's okay. You didn't see that series. I'm with you. That's also the origins of the Wyatt Russell character in this film.

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of things that are important to have seen before this, but in some ways, I would say The Falcon and The Winter Soldier and Black Widow are like the most important prior Marvel MCU canon, which is interesting. So what you need to know, honestly, in terms of the comics history, you know, the group forges to fill the space

that the Avengers have left, right? There are many different leaders and many different formations, as is often the case with the comics canon team up. I would say really the only thing you need to know though is what you head into the movie knowing and then very quickly have reinforced, which is this is like a ragtag group of rejects who have not found their place,

either because it has actively been, they have been deprived of that fellowship with other people, maybe they have actively lost somebody, like Yelena has lost Natasha, Yelena also rejected the Red Room and broke free of the Black Widow mind control. Everybody has their version of that, we'll obviously talk about the characters more as we go.

And so that's the question the film is based on, is like, can people who have no fellowship find it with each other? Can the thing they have in common be their loneliness? And the answer is yes, and I thought it was beautiful. I really liked the movie. It was fun. I was so, I had really high hopes for the movie, but I was really pleasantly surprised.

I thought they pulled it off, and it was exactly what I wanted. This kind of movie with this group of characters at this time in the MCU to be. I thought it was a real breath of fresh air, tonally. And I'm excited to see how these characters function in the wider multiversal saga moving forward. Okay, so the exuberant super fan.

Yeah, loved it. The longtime, but increasingly cynical fan. Yeah, it. The long time but increasingly cynical fan. Yeah. And the general skeptic. But I have not been high on a lot of recent MCU movies so that's part of why I'm so relieved. Skeptic and also the ignorant participant in this. So willfully ignorant. Mal loved it, I liked it. What did you think? I didn't dislike it. I think- Okay, that's progress. Pretty good, that's pretty good.

Honestly, I did dislike it. I heard you chuckle a few times. Well, so that is one thing I would say, it took almost an hour. And I would say that the first 45 minutes felt very, very creaky in terms of exposition and the number of threads that they have to pull together. Setting the table for the story.

Yeah, and to their credit, I have not seen Falcon and Winter Soldier, and I did follow what was going on. They did, you know, kind of through brute force or like brute exposition, make it clear to me. And another thing I'll say for this movie is that I often go into these films and I'm just like, I literally I didn't know what happened. I didn't know what was happening when it started.

And I have no idea what's happening when it finished. And this was this was coherent. Like this explained to me who these people were, the stakes of the story, the powers of everyone, like beginning, middle and end. Who am I rooting for? Are they going to figure it out together? Are they going to find chemistry, which kind of rocky for the first of everyone, like beginning, middle, and end. Who am I rooting for? Are they gonna figure it out together? Are they gonna find chemistry, which kind of rocky for the first 45 minutes,

but then David Harbour shows up. But in a way that's incorporated into the text of the story, right? Totally, and so it makes sense. I have to say, like, I thought it looked genuinely good. Yeah. Which, you know. The void effect was awesome.

I wish, but also they just like, they like filmed sequences outside in real life. They used more practical effects. Like I have some notes for Florence Pugh's stunt doubles wig, but like if that's, it was tough, but like if that's the level of note I have as opposed to why does this look like, you know, video game vomit for 60% of the movie, then that makes a huge difference. And I like, you know, I feel cringy giving that note given the A24 trailer, you know,

because I'm like, oh, that's what they want me to say. They set us up for that. Yeah, it's annoying, but like, it does, it looks so much better. The storytelling is much clearer and more straightforward. Florence Pugh can act. So like suddenly she's crying on the street. She and David Harbour have a few scenes

where I'm like, I don't know why you got to do this in a Marvel movie, but I'm also not mad. It's a real movie scene. They're actually mad. They're really, really good. I totally agree. So I would say it's maybe not my flavor for the first hour, but as everyone say, or any of these movies are flavor,

and like, except for when the Spider-Man's pointed at each other or Andrew Garfield saves the day. Like, not really. So I think it's pretty good. It's way better than the last 15 Marvel movies I've seen. Yeah, I mean, we're now 13 movies removed from Spider-Man No Way Home. So that's a long time.

It's been five and a half years, basically, since that movie. And there have been some that I have liked. Like it's interesting that Black Widow is relevant to this conversation, because Black Widow I think is not that bad. And if we had seen Black Widow on a big screen, knowing what was coming, you'd say like this movie reminds me of that movie.

In that that movie was very competently made. It felt like it was a part of the history of Marvel in a clear way. It felt like it was shot in the real world. It had a dose of humor. It had some new characters that you were introduced to and got connected to. Incredibly strong performers,

Rachel Weisz and Florence Pugh, and people who are overqualified for this kind of work, so to speak. So, but there's been a lot of bad stuff, and Brave New World is extremely flawed and messy. The thing is, this movie isn't messy. You don't really feel the scenes in the storytelling the way that you have in the last few years.

So I'm more or less with you. I struggled with the first 45 minutes myself. I thought the actually humor was actually very weak and forced and then weirdly somehow in the middle of the movie, they kind of like, maybe it is just David Harbour showed up. It is, like for me it was when they're in the car and he's like,

spoilers, I guess, but he's retelling a story about Yelena's childhood. And I didn't laugh at the story the first time. But then when he told it again, I just started laughing. The girl poofed. It was very funny. He's just very funny in these movies. He's the best. But it does, like the Wyatt Russell character kind of snaps in.

And I understand to Mallory, as Mallory said, they are supposed to be at odds and they're not supposed to click, but you know, they're fighting and their allergy to each other was not funny to me for a little while and then Harbor shows up and they become a team. And then I chuckled from time to time. Yeah, I think we're on the same page about that. I'm not sure how much further we can go before we start getting into spoilers. I will say I think I was higher on the maybe like tonal vibe and just sensibility of the first stretch than you guys were. And I think some of that is assessing

the energy among the cast in a vacuum, and some of it is just, again, that larger. Like, hearing what you're saying about how do we consider a Marvel movie inside of a larger tapestry of Marvel movies, and I think the Black Widow is a very different movie, but I think the comparisons you're drawing are really interesting because, like, that's the first movie of Phase Four, which means it's the first movie of this new era.

Now, of course, Far From Home is technically after Endgame, right? There was another movie, but like, the Infinity Saga ends, we move on to this new thing. And for the beginning of phase four, for much of phase four, we're in this era of like, we're filling in like the world, what's the blip? How are we passing the mantles?

But that movie took place earlier in the timeline. Natasha was gone, and then we went backwards, and I think people are like, wait, but what's next? What's next? And now if you just rewatch that movie without being in that very kind of urgent what is the future of the MCU after Endgame headspace, it's like, this is a pretty fun movie to watch.

We might have even talked about it how if they had just released that movie in 2016, it would have just been another one of those just solid B Marvel movies where you're like, I'm movie in 2016, it would have just been another one of those solid B Marvel movies, where you're like, I'm glad I went, it was good. Onto the next one. And like, a lot of what I love about that movie is present here. I think the Yelena-Alexi relationship is just genuinely magical. Like, Florence Pugh and David Harbour are great together.

One of my single favorite things in any Marvel movie ever, I swear, is when they sing American Pie together. It's obviously, like, beautiful and incredibly moving, but also, Yelena is, like, you know, a witty but kind of, like, a little bit of a dickhead, a little bit of an asshole, you know, she's got that line for Natasha about, like, you're a total poser. Why do you always do the pose? And then you see her do the pose.

And you see her do the pose in this movie. So I think I'm inclined, especially in Yelena's, with Yelena's character to like that energy. And like, she, I think just works so well with everyone around her. I thought for like, John Walker, easing him into the rhythm of a zippy zinger trading and swapping was like a little bit tougher.

And like, I just, the question for me heading in was like, am I gonna care about a character like Ghost returning? Okay, taskmaster they say is in the movie, but is in basically no individual marketing material. Like, are we going to have any real taskmaster? Should I care, et cetera? So I was just like, oh, right away, the, the sequence with like, shit, I needed that face, you know, like this is pretty amusing. I'm entertained and I wanna see how they work their way forward together. Yeah, even that sequence, because I liked Black Widow and another, since I don't care what happens

after Avengers Endgame in the same way that you do, I just came to it and I was like, well, this is sort of like- Yeah, I liked it at the time as well. A kitschy, you know, spy thriller, right? And starring people. And I also thought that Florence Pugh just absolutely stole that movie from Scarlett Johansson, which is just kind of funny to watch. But even there, it's because she's playing in opposition to Scarlett Johansson.

And until David Harbour shows up in this movie, she is kind of a loner, which is a major theme of the movie, as we will discuss. But she doesn't have anyone to bounce off of. And so that opening scene where she's just talking to herself and the, like the one-liners even fall a little flat because there's no other energy. Yeah. I think that it takes a long time to bring these people together because we know that a critical figure in the story, of course, is Valentina Allegra de

Fontaine. You got to get the D in there. She's going to, she's a real stickler for it. Who is a contestant and also the director of the CIA. Correct. And she is undergoing an inquiry from the Senate about her activities as the director of the CIA. And this is what has led to her being forced

to clean up all the loose ends for her time running this shadowy organization. And so that leads to all of these operatives that have loose ends for her time running this shadowy organization. And so that leads to all of these operatives that have been working for her being drawn together and with the intent of being killed. And this is the thing that obviously ultimately unites them. I think going forward from in terms of the conversation, if you haven't seen Thunderbolts and you want to see Thunderbolts, we will be spoiling the movie Thunderbolts henceforth.

I wouldn't say this is on the level of an end game in terms of things that happen and the dramatic consequences. So you definitely could listen to this conversation and not feel like your entire next five years of Marvel has been destroyed for you. But there is an introduction of a character that I'm curious about his significance long-term. And there's an interesting sliding doors

related to this character. So once they find themselves in the middle of this vault that they have been drawn into by Val, who's played by Julie Louis-Dreyfus. We see Ghost is there, we see Taskmaster is there, we see Yelena is there, we see US Agent is there. They're all brought together and they've been all sort of assigned to kill one another.

And so we see this pretty cool, I thought, action set piece battle where we see them kind of like all using their powers and Ghost in particular, who's like a character I have no relationship to whatsoever, just visually is very cool. And I think the way that character is deployed is really neat. And then a guy like falls out of a crate and it's Lewis Pullman and he's wearing some hospital scrubs and he's like, how did I get here? I don't even, where is this, where was this bunker located? That they found themselves in? It's at the bottom of a, topographically it was a little confusing

how they presented it, but it looks like the American West. Yeah. The American West, okay. Right, and it's in a canyon that they describe as the bottom of something. This is like Val's area 51, basically. You know, her private experiments.

Incredibly beautiful, again, thank you. Well, it was lovely, no? It was a real place. They clearly showed, and when they're driving in the desert, they're in a real place. Yes, I totally agree. There's no more green screen, no more fucking volume. Like, please, thank you. Well, it was lovely. It was a real place. Yeah. They clearly shot, and when they're driving in the desert, they're in a real place. Exactly. Yes, I totally agree.

No more green screen, no more fucking volume. Please stop making movies like that. Please, I'm begging you. Bob falls out. If you knew, I don't know how much you knew about the marketing. I knew Bob was the Sentry. Oh yeah.

And... Before he was recast, it was very apparent that the Sentry was gonna be in this movie. Yes, it was literally apparent that Century was going to be in this movie. Yes, it was literally announced. It was originally Steven Yeun. Steven Yeun. Oh, I remember that he did drop out. Who would have been fantastic. It puts an interesting flavor on this movie because he would have been so good because he is so much turmoil as an actor that maybe I actually thought Lewis Pullman was quite good

in this movie. I agree. I thought he was great. But he brings a different energy than Steven Yeun. So anyway, it was announced that Steven Yeun was gonna play the Sentry, who's a very famous character, complicated character. And that just got my engagement up, introducing him into the movie, because the whole time now I felt myself feeling like, okay, what are they gonna do with him?

What are they gonna do with him? Not everyone will have that feeling if you don't know who this character is or why they're necessarily important to the story. Century with an S. Yes. I was hearing Century all, all movie. How about when they kept showing the belt buckle with the giant S on it? Well, I thought that was a G and a C.

So, and I don't know what the G was for. Totally fair. But, uh, I thought like, sorry, maybe they gotta work on that logo some more. It's a good note. It is a good note. Um. I think he's golden, so I think I thought it was golden Century. It's a good note. It is a good note. I thought he's golden, so I think I thought it was golden century. It's a good note for the marketing department, honestly.

The reason that that character- Before they put the merch out. Really piqued my interest, aside from him just being a cool superhero character, is that the director of this movie, Jake Schreier, is really good at complicated, sad, depressive people. That's what Robot and Frank and Paper Towns and Beef, these are stories about people who are like, basically deeply depressed

and don't know how to confront their depression. And I assume that's why he was hired to make this movie, so that when the actors are talking to each other, he can make those scenes work effectively. And I pretty much from that point on, from the moment that they escape the vault, I was pretty much in. And pretty much along for the ride the whole way.

It's revealed, I think that the film had maybe even a little bit more depth than I was expecting thematically and it does something that I'd not totally seen before. Is Sentry like a meaningful character to you? Oh yeah. I was thrilled that Sentry was finally joining the MCU. I think if you polled a lot of MCU fans

and said like which character, it's just like the decade and a half long absence of inexplicable to you at this point, Sentry would be high on a lot of lists. And I think in part because of what we see in the movie, which is you're getting two characters for the price of one. You're getting Robert Reynolds, you're getting Bob Bobby, but you're getting the Sentry and you're getting two characters for the price of one, right? You're getting, oh, I mean, you're getting Robert Reynolds, you're getting Bob, Bobby,

but you're getting the Sentry and you're getting the Void. You're getting a superhero and a super villain in one person. And not only does that give you a lot of thematic richness to mine, the duality inside of us all, it gives you a lot to work with from a plot perspective inside of the movie. Now, I think one of the questions from the, because the Void is very clearly present in the marketing.

I would say it was less clear actually how much Sentry we were gonna see. There's a big set piece moment with Sentry that I was like, this is a superhero movie. This is a good superhero movie. When he's in the costume. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of all the sins that Val commits,

let's just get this out of the way now. And she commits a lot. Yeah. Of all the sins that Val commits, let's just get this out of the way now. She commits a lot. Her ledger is dripping and soaked with red to borrow something that Yelena and Natasha have heard a lot over the years. Do you use people and then try to kill them? Yes. Do you conduct secret programs and experiments to make your own super weapon?

Yes. You buy Avengers Tower, you buy Stark Tower, and then you make it the Watchtower for your heinous acts. No. Why is that so problematic to you? Because it's the home of the Avengers. When she's standing there at the bar, I'm like, this is where Tony Stark stood? Like, how dare she?

This offends you? I don't know. It's kind of natural. I actually know, it's great, right? I love it. It's like, she is so obviously trying to fill this vacuum in the way that suits her best, and to simultaneously like paper over

and rebrand the space that like people associate with something so sacred, both inside of the universe, and then for us at home as viewers, I thought was like really smart. Can I ask some real estate questions? So I did recognize the building. She mentions at some point that construction is only like 60% done because they shut it down.

Was that renovation? They just put that drywall up. A lot of talk about the drywall. Yeah, yeah. A lot of talk about the drywall. That joke fell flat for me because there were also a lot of armed guards. Much like the drywall then fell flat onto the citizens of New York. Yes.

So was that like a renovation or was a vendors tower? A lot of destruction in New York, you know, throughout the MCU. Oh, right. So they had to rebuild. There's a little reference to the Chitauri at the Vowels presentation. A lot of Chitauri Easter eggs throughout the movie. Don't know what that is. Sure you do. The invasion and Avengers. Why would I remember the names of the aliens?

Chitauri, it's a memorable name. I agree. It's one of the most successful films of all time. Sure. In fact, you and I saw it on the same day. I know. And we hung out afterwards. Remember that? It's part of the origin story on the big picture.

Oh, The Avengers, not Endgame. Oh, sorry. Okay. I mean, guys, that was like 15 years ago. Literally 15 years ago. There's a kebab scene in there? Shwarma. Sure. Okay. Well, there you go. I remember that. Close.

Okay. What were we talking about? Sentry, sorry. Yeah. We switched to real estate talking about? Century, sorry. Yeah, we switched to real estate corner on your century. Well, Stark Tower is interesting because obviously this film in many ways is about the creation of a new super team that will play a significant role. In theory, I'm not actually sure if this is going to end up being a signature team in Marvel.

We could talk about that at the end of the pod. But Valentina realizes at a certain point that she needs to have more control over the world, and one of the only ways to do that is to have a superhero of her own, and that there's this huge vacuum. She literally says this before Congress, and Wendell Pierce, who is a congressman, one of two significant former cast members of The Wire who appear in this film, in addition to Chris Bauer in a very thankless role as... Yeah.

What is his name? Holt? Yeah, I believe it's Holt. Holt, a military man. But I'm prepped for lethal. Who meets an absolutely grisly end as he crashes in a helicopter. Well, does he? I guess we can talk about the Voids' powers later.

Oh, okay. Good point. Right. Huh. See? Look who's paying attention now. But then if you're restored and the vessel you were in had it like exploded. Well, I put a pin in it. Science corner is a common.

I know science corner. Science corner is a common. Um, anyhow, she needs, she knows she needs to harness a superpower. She doesn't realize that she's harnessing an uncontrollable superpower by making the sentry. She also doesn't realize that she did harnessing an uncontrollable superpower by making the sentry. She also doesn't realize that she did it. Yeah, it was a failed project. Throughout the trash.

What do you think about her lack of attention to detail and reliance on Geraldine Viswanathan's character throughout this film? I did feel like I know that we girl bosses are supposed to outsource, you know? We're supposed to delegate and let people support us. I love to promote women. Great iconic moment in the movie.

Contestants really can't have it all, including an assistant who does their job for them. I did think that she was outsourcing maybe a little too many kill switches. Some high level work. And also just leaving a paper trail or a digital trail that I had some real questions about. Yes, Elena was able to scoop up a lot of key documents

with relative ease. I will say two things. One, Val not paying attention to the details to the point that she doesn't even realize her experiment Project Century has been successful is to me like that tracks perfectly, right? And is I think very much in keeping with the hubris that we see across other governing bodies through the long history of the MCU, SHIELD or otherwise people are...

Or in America. Yeah, exactly. People are pursuing some sort of nefarious ends, the grip on power above all, and they don't really care how that happens, who it hurts or what even it looks like. The thing I felt much more keenly was that Mel was pulled to the light out of a void of a different sort by just Bucky Barnes being hot. And I would like to say, who among us? It was palpable.

And God blessed them for allowing some sexual tension into one of these movies when they show up in front of the Avengers sign or whatever at the museum. They were just like, oh, we're doing this now, great. My God, the hair length, the beard, washing the vibranium arm and the dishwasher, the chili getting everywhere. Take the tank top off too while we're at it, you know?

It's really the only thing they let him do. So the note that I made about Sebastian Stan's performance in this film is that he's barely even trying, but blowing almost everybody else off the screen Because somewhere along the way Sebastian Stan just got the Kwan like I don't even know what happened here. Like obviously he had a great 2024 He was in two really interesting films Academy Award nominated Yeah And some of it is just the erosion of star power throughout the MCU that he has risen above

But this is the second MCU movie in a row now where when he shows up, you're like, oh, it's James Dean. Which it didn't use to feel that way when he showed up in films. He was always a fan favorite and he's great. He's been in a lot of really good movies. But this is a cut above. Obviously he and Florence Pugh are on equal footing in terms of their star power

and what they bring to a movie. But I was impressed by how little he even has to do in this movie and how much he still is able to kind of like get your applause moments, get your like, whoa sequences. You know, he gets... Well, he gets one that is very effective and very funny, but also definitely felt like edited in, like, hey, we need like a Bucky moment.

You mean the driving sequence? Yeah, I mean the Mad Max sequence, which is like, and you know, and some of it is like, they're using that landscape, which like, again, thank God, but it's, you almost expect like the guy on the guitar to come out and be like, yeah, exactly. It's really sick. And it's cool. But it, and I mean, it's important that he shows up at some point, but it doesn't, it's not really necessary other than they're like, I guess we got to do something with this guy. So I have, I guess, a slightly different take on it, which is like, I thought this was actually quite deft

and deliberate and a really smart deployment of a character who has become and a performer who has become one of the single greatest through lines in the entire MCU. It's true. Like, Bucky Barnes debuts in The First Avenger, which came out in 2011. He has been in so many movies. He's been the co-star of a standalone television series.

Like, he is one of the heartbeats of the story to this point, and people are deeply, deeply invested in him. Now, that could be true of a lot of characters in a lot of movies, but it's a, I would say, even though there is a, I would say, even though there is like, I think quickly forged and very sincere, deep and abiding affection for Yelena. I think people love Yelena.

I think Red Guardian has a lot of fans. These are really new characters. Like Bucky is just a different thing from the rest of the characters who have been, you know, ghosts, you know, Ant-Man and the Wasp. Like that movie's pretty old at this point. That was a while ago, but like- US agent's never been in any of the characters who have been, you know, ghosts, you know, Ant-Man and the Wasp. Like, that movie's pretty old at this point. That was a while ago, but like... The US agent's never been in any of the movies, right?

No, he debuted in Falcon and the Winter Soldier as well. And like, so did Val. Val was in Black Widow, but the, you know, Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Black Widow were similar timelines, and then Wakanda forever. But like, again, those are all very recent. We're talking about the last few years. So...

You're right, he's got the longest legacy. Yeah, and so he's not only like... He is suddenly the elder statesman. That's just like a wild thing for the guy who used to be the sidekick to Captain America. Like, it's an incredible... And you know, I think especially for a character where a lot of the connection that fans have to him

and of course his relationship with Steve is like, I'm with you till the end of the line. That's like what Bucky represents in the MCU. So for him to feel a little bit apart and outside of the rest of the group, I think is intentional and actually necessary because it's a meaningful thing for him to decide to do it again with different people. Right. That's a good point. He's also an elected official and also former Soviet asset.

He's a high-dress super soldier who is now in the House of Representatives, which like actually I guess that tracks completely, but like... It's a good point. Come from the inside. So, in Red Hulk, what was that movie actually called? It was not called Red Hulk. Why not? What was it called? It was called Captain America Brave New World. Okay, great.

He was campaigning, right? And he took some time from the campaign trail to give... He did. And a desperate act of reshooting by the Marvel Corporation to wedge Bucky into the film. And that was the best scene of the movie? Of course. Same example I'm talking about. I was just trying to track his political progress. So in the...

Do you have opinions on his political platform? Well, I didn't know that he was a... I forgot he was a super soldier. Damn Republican. I mean, he's representing Brooklyn, obviously. So presumably he's blue. Yeah. Hmm. Not so sure. Independent? Red like Red Skull? Uh, I... No, come on. He's standing next to AOC, casting votes. Okay, I hope so. That's actually an interesting question. If they could, if they would of course never be so bold

as to reveal the political affiliations of any of their superheroes. Let's talk a little bit more about Florence Pugh. Okay, please. This is a weird time for her to be coming one of the centerpieces of the MCU, because the MCU has gotten a lot less cool. It's become a lot more clear in the public eye that it's maybe not as a there's not as much approval for the like well I just got to do this to kind of elevate you know my status and make movies that make a lot of money and make a lot of money myself like the bloom is kind of off the rose on this methodology she got involved in

this five or six years ago probably when she signed on to do Black Widow and she has been now I think wisely pivoted into one of the key forward facing parts in this world. And she really carries this movie on her shoulders. She's fantastic. She's excellent. Yelena is a great character. Yeah. I think a lot of her scenes are very well written and her, as you said, her and David Harbour have terrific chemistry and they're very funny and they're very touching. And honestly, there's like a girl dad moment in this movie where I was like, this is real.

Like this is real, which is so stupid to say. But it's very effective. Even just the fact that he has the soccer picture from their fake life in Ohio is like so sweet because it was real to them guys, the bond. And so it really plays to her strength of like she's often a flinty young woman who's defiant and independent, but has this deep reservoir of pain

and whatever she's pushing down. We see this, you've not seen the film We Live in Time, but I would say she is using a very similar skill set in this movie that she uses in We Live in Time, which was a kind of a modest hit last fall. For A24. It is a little bit hard to imagine 10 years of Yelena and Florence Pugh in the MCU now. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing,

but when I look at every other project that she's ever done, it feels pretty far afield from what she's interested in. You think it's hard to imagine that, like, Like her being Robert Downey Jr. now? Because of her being interested in it for that long, or the character making sense in the MCU for that long, or all of the above. We don't get a lot of like under 35 young women

who are like, that's the future of movies to me, you know? Right. And so I'm not, and this movie is pretty good, as I said, but for her to be kind of dragooned into Yelena through phase nine, just makes me a little queasy. Interesting. I think to... So even... I'm going to assume you did not watch the Disney Plus television series Hawkeye.

No, Hailey Steinfeld. Correct. And this is why I bring it up. And listen, I guess I got to go back now because I'm buying in on Hailey. She's back. She should just be her character from Sinners in the MCU, though. That would be... Some of that show was actually quite good. There's a great dog in it. His name's Lucky. Lucky, I thought it was okay. As usual, they lost it.

It was like episode five of six. Six episodes too long, but yeah. It was only six episodes, so that means you thought it should have been zero episodes. But the reason I bring it up is because when Yelena shows up, spoilers for Hawkeye, midway through, she's there on an assignment from Val pursuing Clint, kind of like, again, as Val tends to do with these assets, falsely led on a revenge tour,

she's seeking to take people and recycle them for her purposes. But the scenes between Yelena and Kate Bishop, the Haley Steinfeld character, the new Hawkeye, are incredible, electric. And one of the questions for MCU fans coming out of Hawkeye was, is this the beating heart of the young Avengers? And I think it's really interesting that Yelena has been pulled out of that.

Clearly, Yelena is not going to the young Avengers. That's happening with Kamala Khan and Kate Bishop and a different set of characters. And Yelena has been in the Avengers. Aren't Kate, are they really Steinfeld and Florence Puey like the same age though? That's why it's interesting. It's like I think some of it is about the character, right? And who the character makes sense with maybe in some of these different permutations. But like, I don't know. That's obviously not going to be, it doesn't mean that Yelena won't appear in any Young Avengers properties.

And who the fuck knows if they're even doing Young Avengers? I mean, they keep teasing it. Obviously, we got some tantalizing stingers. But being the star of Thunderbolts, and then having the Thunderbolts rebranded as New Avengers with a Z, great stuff. And then having the post credits be just a setup for Doomsday, which obviously, like, Yelena is gonna be a

meaningful part of? Seems like she's gonna be a really good character. Yeah, it's really notable. It is. I'm mixed on it. It's not that she can't make other movies in the meantime. She certainly can, but this really dragged down Chris Evans's career for 10 years. And I liked him as Captain America and I liked when he was in those movies, but I was like, you kind of just frittered away like a long part of your career. So it's cool that she's having this moment and it's cool that they're making, they maybe, I don't know if they realized that she should be

a centerpiece of these movies at a certain point and they repositioned her into this slot, but it does then take us away from some other Florence Pew parts. It was okay for ScarJo. She made it work. She did, she did. And she still worked with interesting people but it does then take us away from some other Florence Pew parts. It was okay for ScarJo. She made it work. She did, she did.

And she still worked with interesting people and made good movies and had Oscar nominations and you know, now she's just in a different giant franchise because everybody needs money. She's hunting dinosaurs. Yeah. Are you excited about Rebirth? Not as excited as C.R. is,

but his passion is my passion, so I think I'll absorb some of the Vivia osmosis, you know? I do want to shift back to the void in a minute, but before we do that, can I just make a note? I don't really think Julie Louis-Dreyfus is good in these movies, and I think she's a little miscast as Val. Tell us why.

I think this is a hot, genuinely hot take. I mean, she looks like Valentina, but this is unkind, but she's a TV actor. And it feels like you're watching a TV show when you're watching her. It doesn't feel like you're watching a movie. What do you mean? Her comic timing.

Well that is extremely rude to the Nicole Holliff Center film, Enough Said. So take it back. I'm a huge fan of that film. I'm also a fan of You Hurt My Feelings, which came out a couple of years ago. But I wouldn't describe Julie Louis-Dreyfus as a great film actor.

I think she has a sensibility that is very quippy and very quick, that is all about repartee. Now that is obviously a component of Marvel, but this is a movie, I think with a big dynamic emotional story in it, and she's a part of that story, and whenever she's participating in it, I feel like she's in the sitcom version of the movie.

And a lot of the other actors are in the real version of the movie. And it kind of threw me off my game. She's doing Veep. And like, I mean, it's hard. She's dressed beautifully, by the way. I liked the suits very much. I've had no beef with Julie Lou Dreyfus at large

as a long time Seinfeld fan. But you know, it is like professional woman, like professional ambitious woman playing ambition and all of these tropes like for laughs. And it's like different kinds of laughs and slightly less sophisticated, but I know what you're saying. Yeah.

I thought that was more about the kind of tonal divisions of the movie because it's very quippy and that it is also about depression. So, and like recreates everyone's depression at at for extended periods of time So she's just in like the funny half. I think she does a good job at the funny half, but I The mishmash doesn't totally add up. I guess you could make the case that we do get this so

I guess you could make the case that we do get this. So Bob's character has this ability when he makes human, when he makes physical contact with a character to draw them back to a traumatic moment in their life, to a critical moment in their life that informs a lot of the pain that they feel all the time. Almost every character in the movie gets to have a moment like this with Bob where we see something critical to their life. She gets one of these moments.

Yeah. And so we see something that is how we see that her father has been murdered when she was a young girl. We get a little bit of context around maybe why she seeks to control power the way that she does. But then you cut back to Julie Louis-Dreyfus and she's kind of like making a face and darting out of the room the moment she has to deal with this.

And I'm like, they're not even giving us any opportunity to get invested in whatever this character is supposed to be about. So, I responded to it the opposite way, which is like, I'm like, Val's not a character. That glimpse into her trauma didn't resonate with me because I don't think the movie is sincerely interested in informing us about her motivation. It's like she is where she is

and she behaves the way she does. And it's not a study in actually her path to that. It's a study in like the manifestation then of her intention. And so I think her being like a glib, myopic, a void of a different sort, somebody who is seeking to absorb and suck and subsume everybody into her orbit because the thing that she desires is control.

I think the way that she's engaged in conversation and certainly the performance is like, this is how I deflect and how I make my way through the world and I'm smarter than you and I see something more clearly than you and like, I'm gonna make sure that you understand the only thing of value you provide to my life

is this cup of coffee. I really like that and I think at least the projects that she's been in so far, maybe with the exception of Wakanda Forever, where while I was genuinely interested in the romantic history between JLD and... Martin Freeman. Martin Freeman's Ever At Ross, one of the

just great reveals in the history of cinema. You're sort of like, wait, what is this doing in this movie? But when she comes in and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, she's like, John Walker, you were Captain America for a minute and you were disgraced. And I'm going to use your pain with a couple quick one-liners and then my own agenda. Like it works and the fact that she's like using humor in that classic JLD way, I think allows you to understand

how she moves through halls of power. So I've really liked the way that she's been used in the MCU. I think that if she were in like, I don't know, any number of other MCU properties, like it probably wouldn't make any sense. But the ones that she's been in so far, like it actually has worked. I mean, you could see her in like the Guardians movies, you could see her in a Deadpool movie, you could see her in Ragnarok. I think it's because of her theoretical emotional importance to the movie. Like she is the agent of power, literally.

She is the true villain of the movie. And we don't really know why. I'm okay with that. Like, you know, the finality of power and the, and if anything, I, you know, I don't need to know about her trauma, respectfully. And so like the flashback of it being like, well, that was upsetting, and I thought all of those flashbacks

were pretty restrained and effective. And her face recoils for a second, but I didn't need to know anymore. I think I'm maybe not asking for a one hour exploration of Val's pain. I think it'm maybe not asking for like a one hour exploration of Val's pain. I think it's more just because of the performance. Like some actors can pull this off without having to have that scene.

And I don't want to disparage. What is Thanos' pain? Thanos' pain? Thanos' pain. Sorry, yeah. Sorry for giving it to you. Destruction of the home world. The transatlantic.

Yeah, this planet has been destroyed. Yeah, the pursuit of balance. Oh, OK. The impartial balance. Overpopulation as an anxiety. Yeah. But so his home planet. It's kind of as OCD a little bit too.

Okay. But that's the inciting incident, like his home planet blew up. Well. Did he blow it up? There's a, do you recall the showdown where Peter gets very upset and then everything, when they're trying to take the gauntlet off, everything kind of goes to shit. No, but that's okay.

I was gonna bring up the setting and then what we see the destruction, but it's not a, yeah. That's right before the snap. Correct. Yeah, okay, so there we go. Should revisit it. I don't think those movies are good.

They're great, yeah. Okay, let's go back to Lewis Pullman. Yeah, he was great. I agree. You liked to Lewis Pullman. So... He was great. I agree. You liked him. Oh, yeah. I thought he was fantastic. This is Bill Pullman's son. He went from being someone I'd never heard of...

He looks exactly like him. He does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good use case for, like, here's what it was like in the 90s where a guy like this could be for at least six years the most important person in the movie. So, like, he was the president and he was marrying Sandra Bullock. And also like Bill Pullman,

so Lewis Pullman and then Jack Quaid, son of, is like, and who does look like Dennis Quaid but also looks so much like Meg Ryan. And so all they're just, you know, the nineties are back and the facial expressions and the emotions. And I do feel like some of his emotions and some of the... Like the... His acting, looking so much like Bill Pullman,

definitely affected me because I was thinking about Sleepless in Seattle or While You Were Sleeping or Independence Day as he was saying, like, sometimes I have a hard time in Southeast Asia. For our parents to watch Michael Douglas get insanely famous in the 70s and 80s, and having known Kirk Douglas before that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, but he looks exactly like him. Yeah. Like, it is shocking. He has a different energy, though, I think. He has a different vibe, especially Bob. But the middle part of his face is, like, it's uncanny. I saw Phil Pullman in person at a Gladiator 2 screening earlier this year, and it was thrilling for me.

It was like he is my childhood in many ways. He looked great. Very handsome, though. I find him quite dreamy. I believe he owns a winery now. and it was thrilling for me. It was like he is my childhood in many ways. You look great. Very handsome. I find him quite dreamy. I believe he owns a winery now. Ah, thanks God. A vineyard.

That sounds great. It seems like he's doing it right. Anyway, his son is a really good actor. And it's hard to take parts like this and imbue them with any sense of emotionality. This is a complicated part. Bob was a drug addict and a lost person who found his way to Malaysia,

looking to disconnect from the world and finds himself the subject of this scientific test. And I guess he's injected with some sort of serum. Is that the idea? Yes, exactly. And it transforms him into an all powerful person. He doesn't quite realize the extent of his powers. We know he's gonna have them,

but he has that very cool moment where he sort of explodes into the sky after drawing attention away from the other Thunderbolts in the first half of the film. Very quickly, I think maybe just like a little too quickly, he goes from being a guy trying to figure it out to the most powerful superhero in the universe. Yeah. Don't you feel like that was a little bit of a leap there?

Yeah, that was fast. When you get to the sentry sequence. Yeah. I guess we're meant to believe time has passed or something. Well, you've already watched him, you know, face off against like the entire, Val's entire army and, you know, be shot like 80,000 times and then like ascend, you know, into the sky. Like he's so powerful. I think the thing that felt fast was the control. The mastery of all of his different abilities

because shooting, yeah, the hail of bullets falling, helpfully removing the lower part of his. Yeah, I've revealed his abs for you. I did, I also clocked those and I was like, oh, I see, Kyogre. Well placed, bullets, very helpful. Yeah, from then I shoot up and I shoot down and I crash and they collect me in a box,

so holy shit, I can make like a glass of water heat up and explode into I can, with calm and confidence and complete poise, handle every single one of you and anything you might do was like a matter of a scene and a half. Yeah, he was like the Otani of superheroes very quickly. I was like, we've never seen this before. And there was time for some hair dye as well. What did you think of the blonde?

I thought they did a great job of talking about the hair in the movie. Yeah, it was funny. I liked it. God, what is the name of the lead villain in The Boys? He's giving that energy. Homelander. There's a lot of Homelander in this section.

He didn't drink any breast milk though. Is that something Homelander does? Oh yeah. Okay. Not caught up on The Boys. It is. Is it, how's he sourcing it? All sorts of ways. Okay. Not caught up on the voice. It is. Is it, how's he sourcing it? All sorts of ways.

Fresh, from the teat when he can. Primarily? Also in a private store, a refrigeration unit full of bottles, any way he can get it. So is he like, well, what's the mechanism of stealing it? Like, is he stealing the supply? Is he attacking people? Does he have a dairy somewhere? A number of different providers over the course of stealing it? Like is he stealing the supply? Is he attacking people? Like does he have a dairy somewhere?

He had a number of different providers over the the course of the five now seasons of the boys. I fell off after season two. Although I like that show. I have nothing bad to say about it. So he's not just like sneaking into people's freezers at night and grabbing that, okay. He is like a Superman level power though. Like similar to the centuryry where you're like, this is the most powerful person on this planet. But he's also an absolute demon, like a horrendous person. Bad guy, Homelander, bad guy. Sentry realizes his incredible powers. We have this great fight sequence in the middle of the movie

where all five Thunderbolts get their asses handed to them in a very tight and tidy way. And then it becomes clear that Bob realizes he's stronger than he knows and Val realizes he's too powerful and too self-aware. The kill switch is engaged by Mel after he nearly kills Val. He dies and is reborn as the void, the darkness that lives inside of Bob. So here's what I wrote down, because this is the reason that this movie ultimately works for me. There's a big obvious metaphor at the center of the film that is also its core theme, that is also its villain. And I don't know if I've ever seen that before. Now obviously it's a comic

book movie and so the bounds of our imagination can go anywhere, but using all three of those things in one package to tell your story at a time when people are more aware of and confronting their own general depression than ever before, this is just something that people talk about every day now. And the entire character is oriented around this idea of not slipping into this feeling. I don't know if it's sophisticated, but it is deeper

than I think a lot of what these movies are about, or at least can like thematically reach. Like I'm listening know if it's sophisticated, but it is deeper than I think a lot of what these movies are about, or at least can like thematically reach. Like I listen to you all the time. You have an amazing ability to locate what the story represents and what it's trying to do. I don't always agree necessarily with like, I'm not in agreement with how it gets to that place or if it gets to that place, but you are so good on theme. This was a rare case where I was like, the theme is very strong and clear and clearly communicated and it didn't feel phony.

And I'm so sick of trauma as the basis for so many horror movies. This was a rare case where I thought, I don't know if earned is the right word, but it worked. It developed it. Yeah. And like, I agree with you. And as a person who didn't know anything

about this character or the exposition, so had to have all of the pieces in place explained to me so that I could understand the central theme, but you get it. It is straightforward, but also not too heavy-handed. Even they are doing like the villain's, you know, the villain's trauma, her origin story, but it's quick.

And if like, you don't really care about it, it's gone in two seconds. So, there's something about it just being so like dead on where they're not trying to hide it in that many other things, because the void just is depression. That is the character, so they just go with it. And I think that's-

It's really not trying to make you think. It's like, this is what it is. Right. But they don't try to overcomplicate it. And I think that is smart, and that makes it more effective. Yeah, I think the movie's very self-assured in what it's trying to examine and convey, you know? And so, like, I think you guys are right

that it is there in a clear and palpable way, but not then in a heavy-handed alienating one, which is like actually quite a difficult balance to pull off. I think, again, a character like Valentina, part of the reason that she is in opposition to our heroes and our anti-heroes, whatever we want to call them, is not just because she's seeking to use them, but because she is uninterested,

ultimately, in looking inward in a way that all of the other characters eventually work themselves to a place of being able to do, and have, crucially, of course, in a team-up movie, in a found family movie, helping each other do. Like, guys, the climax of the movie is literally a group hug. Honestly, like for real, like they all go

and wrap their arms around Bob and like pull him back. Which is a great little inversion of them climbing up the tower. Yeah, and there is a version of this movie where that is like so corny and so like, eye roll inducing and it just wasn't. I was like, wow, this is actually like quite touching. And I am invested in these, these people as individuals,

but also now as a group and that happened quite quickly. I mean, I think in this, inside of the film, like, just not a lot of time passes and you have to believe that that bond could forge. I think it's helpful when some of the characters already have history with each other, like Bucky and John do, or like Yelena and Alexi do, because you can have that conversation, like the one that Alexi and Yelena have,

and you know there's more like, depth of shared experience and awareness. But ultimately I thought the pairing that crackled the most and that kind of you have to opt into and give a shit about is Yelena and Bob. Like that's what the movie hinges on, is you caring that they are going to decide to care more about each other than the things around them. It only works, I think, because of that conversation between Alexi and Yelena outside after they've

been defeated by the Sentry. And she's talking about this sense of like aloneness and purposelessness. And I think a feeling many people can relate to, which is sort of like, some days are good, a lot of days are bad. And when the day is bad, totally, right. What is the point of everything? And that's the same thing that Bob is dealing with.

And when Lexi talks to her about it, makes her feel more whole. Like the light, you're dim, you're brighter. Here's the little girl I knew. I was like, damn, this isn't good writing. Yeah, it is. Why you wanna be goalie? The goalie part was great.

She did the Star-Lord, we're losers. Like people who have lost things. You know, speech from Guardians. That's like such a tried and true recipe. But to do it in a way that still felt fresh here, or maybe less fresh and more just like specific to these characters I thought was impressive. Quick shout out while we're talking about that sequence

on the street for the passerby, the woman who just like... It's like what's going on with these people? She walked by and that was hysterical. That is what would happen in New York. I loved that. That was a great little touch. I thought that was really, really funny. Did you guys feel that the actual maze of trauma traps was like, did you want more? I thought the Bucky coming in and being like, well, yeah, you know, I've had a calm, chill, cool, normal life. So like, it was fine for me. It was great. And we don't need to see Bucky's memories because we know what they are. But did you wish we saw more? I think I'm glad we didn't spend too much time in that because this is the most Nolan inflected MCU movie

I can think of. And that was very inception, that final sequence. And as you guys know, I have some issues with inception. I think it was just psychological enough to not have to worry about the logic of it. And if I start spending a little bit too much time thinking about like what they did or how Alexi found his way to work, you know what I mean? Like the mechanics of it were kind of iffy, but it

was done well enough that I understood what they were trying to do, which is basically get us to that lab so that we could, Bob and Yelena could meet and she could make him whole again. She could say it's not your fault, basically. Right. I think I was so relieved that the climactic, you know, like, final battle, dream, whatever, sequence in a Marvel movie was once, like, somewhat grounded in the real world and, you know, filmed on sets, at least, as opposed to on green screens, and was, you know, recognizable things.

And I'll give them credit. One of the memories was an abusive dad and a bad childhood and then one was... Meth chicken. Right, meth chicken, which was like, they weren't too corny, they were recognizable and they didn't dwell on them. So, but just the actual execution of this being like not CGI slop for like, you know, and a bunch of ants was a huge release.

She loves the ants and she brings them up a lot. Mentioned them multiple times. It's not even the first time this week that she has mentioned the ants. No idea that it's all happening in the quantum realm, but she knows that there were ants. I did until I saw this movie think that the void was the quantum realm. You know what, we worked through it together. Something you're saying right now makes me think of another thing

that I think the movie does very well. Let's use Zulina's trip into the void as an example. You actually could understand everything important about that character if you never saw Black Widow. Agreed. And I think the MCU, when it struggles, really struggles with that specifically, is how much homework did somebody have to do before they...

Now I'm like a completionist, I want people to watch all of this, but I don't think they should be expected to have to watch all of it. And if you didn't see Black Widow and you didn't see Hawkeye, you would understand that Yelena was turned into a child assassin and forced to commit atrocities against other people.

It's because you've got a lot of characters who don't know each other, so they have to introduce each other. At a certain point, Red Guardian is sitting in the passenger seat of a car and he's talking to Bucky and he's like, you and I are the same, we're both super soldiers. I got the knockoff Soviet serum. Like he's literally explaining his origin story, but in a humorous way that moves quickly.

And you don't, it's not this overweening mythology. It is just, I'm a guy, here's what I do. I'm a lady, here's what I do. You also crucially learn not to drink what's in the Big Gulp. Also important. It's pretty gross. Yes.

Are we sure that's what it was? What do you think it is, juice? Yeah. It's a big, big, big gulp. It's true. This is not the rewatchables for Jesus Christ. Yes. Are we sure that's what it was? What do you think it is? Juice? Yeah. Some big, big pills. A big gulp. That's true. This is not the rewatchables for Jesus Christ.

You asked the question. I did. So... That was my second guess too. So what did you think we were going to say? Let's talk about the void, the character. I thought this might be a good time for Science Corner. I assume you have some questions.

I have been waiting all week. That's the Science Corner do do do do do do do do do do do do do do. That's the Science Corner music. So, but I hope we play the real one. Welcome to Amanda Dobbins' Science Corner. So is he disappearing people or is he... What happens to their physical matter is the question that I would have once you get voided. Because we see, and I actually, again,

I really liked the execution in the movie, which was, you know, it was computer, but instead of, it just, things, it kind of got like stamped out. Like shadowed out. Yeah, shadowed out. And that was something that you could do fairly easily and elegantly within the spectrum of the visuals.

And I think also visually it fit the metaphor. Yes, exactly. Which is like the encroaching darkness of life blots you out. Yes. And then they also, when the Sentry becomes the Void and like shows up over the city of New York, it's like, he is just Dark Superman, which is what you're supposed to understand.

And even I, you know, a superhero dummy got, like it was effectively visually communicated to me. What happens if Superman was super depressed? Right. Well, which like, isn't he though? Because don't you think being Superman? Because it's unfulfilled. Yeah.

Right? We're going to find out. July 11. Great. Can't wait. I can't wait. There's, you know, a dog in that movie. That was a sarcastic can't wait and a sincere can't wait.

Simultaneous. A dog in that movie. Not a dog in this movie. Where was Watchdog? Alpha and Omega of my podcasting life right here. I love it. Mallory. In Vegas, James Gunn talked for,

I am not kidding, 20 minutes about his dog and what his dog did, including eating an $8,000 laptop, which he thought would be a relatable anecdote. And then how this dog inspired the other dog that's in the movie. Crypto, yeah. I was wearing heels and I had gone to the bathroom and I had to run back because I didn't want to miss Superman

because I know everyone cares about it. Yeah. And so I was just like standing waiting for him to stop talking about his dog and my feet started hurting and it was just, it was interminable, Mallory. I think it sounds great. It was interminable. I'm not sure if you were aware how much of James Gunn's Instagram content is about his cat. But I find it...

riveting to follow. I believe the hashtag he uses is Emily Monster, or something like that for the cat. Who is named Emily and I believe behaves... monstrously. Okay, anyway, the void turns things black. And so, but, so when he's the void, he's still, he has like Bob or Lewis Pullman,

like, out, like, silhouette, right? You know, he is Bob Pullman shaped. But he's the, Bob Pullman. Lewis Pullman. Lewis Pullman, Bob. Bob Pullman is his grandfather. Right, okay. Bob's also is his grandfather. Right, okay. Bob's also his Top Gun Maverick character, so it's pretty stressful for me and exciting.

But he is... Okay, so the void is Bob shaped. Yes. It's like sitting with Carl Sagan when you get into one of these sequences. It's just amazing. But when he disses, I'm gonna keep going. It's like sitting with Carl Sagan when you get into one of these sequences. It's just amazing. But... When he disappears... I'm gonna keep going.

Yep. Like, Kim's gone. Keep going. Don't stop. Keep going. He disappears, everyone, including the little girl, which was the one, like, gasp. Genuine gasp. Yeah, everyone.

And I was like... Fabulous scene. But so, these people are just gone. What was once matter is no longer matter. Yeah. Okay. It is snap reminiscent. And there is darkness there,

but the darkness does not take the shape of the people. It's not even really three-dimensional, I would say. Right. It's like a brushstroke through your life. Right. And so then when the void goes away, I would say. Right. It's like a brush stroke through your life. Right. And so then when the void goes away, they're all returned to their places. But Mallory asks an important point about Holt on the helicopter because he's there

and then he gets voided and the helicopter keeps flying. Now I think the MCU invites us to ask this question, because this is... I don't think we can overstate how much time people have spent talking about it, asking about it, and then the MCU answering it with what happened when you, after the snap, if you were part of the blip and you came back, well, what if someone had moved into your apartment?

Or what if the thing that you were sitting in or standing in wasn't there anymore? What if you were having sex? This is why. Yeah. This is why. This is not pseudoscience, Cornelia. the thing that you were sitting in or standing in wasn't there anymore. What if you're having sex? This is why. You know? This is why. This is not pseudo science corner. She's the real one. This is science corner.

Well, what is the canonical answer to that? Well, if the person you were fucking, if Thanos had also snapped that person, you would both go back to the same moment. Okay, but- Could be great. Be a little jarring. I mean, sure. But also it's like- Not as jarring as it would be in the person you were fucking

Are you going back to the same moment in time because like what if you're like in a public place or present day? But does the erection hold? Well, so this is part of what they've well, they haven't answered that but like Right kevin feige if you're watching, if I was snapped mid-coitus, and I was gone for how many years were they gone? Five. Five years. And I returned, would my erection hold? I challenge you, Kevin Feige.

Well, and so this is also... Jack, can you just clip Sean saying, would my erection hold, and make sure we have that for Instagram and TikTok? Thanks. But there was a lot of explanation about how Hulk, when he was bringing people back, like, had an incredible amount of control over... So I think part of what you'd have to confront

is that Bruce Banner was, like, thinking about your dick. Could be worse, I guess. I don't know. Worst things I've heard. Wait, why? Because he's like, should Sean come back? Like, at full mast. Oh, because he's in charge of all of it. A lot of calculations to do there.

Yeah. Interesting. He's largely responsible for bringing us all back. Oh, he was. And so he could decide. Would you prefer you had been snapped or exist inside of a world where there was a snap? Definitely snapped. Yeah, of course.

That's an easy one. Are you kidding? You want to spend five years? I mean, I guess the answer... If you get to share a peanut butter sandwich with Steve Rogers and Natasha, and talk about your grief, talk about how much you miss the Mets.

Yeah, sure. Which happened. As we know, Joe Russo did that once upon a time. It's tough, right? Because, but I mean, what happens to the kids? You know, that's like the real... Well, yeah. If my family was snapped, I would want to be snapped. Right? You know, that's like the real, like, I mean, I- If my family was snapped, I would want to be snapped.

Right, exactly. If my family was not snapped, we could hang out, figure it out. But the world is broken. But, yeah. Yeah. What if you got snapped out mid pod? Okay, okay.

You guys are like, do I keep going? Do I finish with my thoughts? We didn't go back to it so you get voided. Yeah. Which I do like pretty much every episode at some point, you know? It's like you start talking about Chick and Jocky and I'm just like fuck. Can we add those effects in, Che? How do we get that shadow effect in?

Can we like call ILM and just get your shadowed out? You know how I wanted a buzzer? Like anytime things go really bad, I'll just hit the buzzer and then shadowed out. They'd mottled on. You know how I void a buzzer? Like anytime things go really bad, I just hit the buzzer and then I void out. And then I can come back once you stop your bullshit. Okay, so you get voided. And then you come back, but do you return to the, is it snap rules or are there?

Who are you asking? I mean, that kid was like just there on the sidewalk. return to the, is it snap rules or are there... Who are you asking? I mean, that kid was like just there on the sidewalk. Yeah. So whole, like, I guess there's no helicopter to go back into because that was actually destroyed. So does he just go into the middle of the sky and then fall?

I mean, I guess we have to hope so. Now it didn't get very far. Like we cover Manhattan, we blanket Manhattan. That's a lot of people, but this isn't like half of the universe, like with Thanos. So it's a little bit more controlled. It's like a thousand people. I guess it's ultimately a million people when the whole city goes black.

But isn't it like eight million? Right. But where does that matter go, is another important question. Into the void. Where does it go? Where do we think? Into the void. I mean, Marvel is just a collection of various different dimensions

and pocket universes at the end of the day. Well put. So part of the journey of this one was moving into your own memory and then each other's. Is the void a villain or another dimension? Well. Why not both? Well, I'm asking the questions here.

Yeah, I mean, the void as a character as a person is part of Bob's essence, and also is bringing people into these trauma prisons. You know? And then our characters on their journey to found family moved through their own individual pain into each other's pain, because that was the message of the movie. That only together could they pull themselves out of that. Beautiful. Beautiful stuff. Do you think the kid who took a shit in the middle of the field,

I mean that was Ohio, so she probably, she didn't enter the void, but if she had, what would her trauma vision have been? Would it have been when she had diarrhea in the middle of a soccer game? Well, see that's the thing. Was it an accident? Yeah, I think so. Do you think she intentionally took a shit? Like in protest? They make it sound that way.

Well, I don't know about in protest. Oh, like just like drop trowel and was like, fuck this, we haven't won a game. I'm taking a shit in the middle of the field. Like we're closer to potty training, you know? But it's just like someone you gotta poop, you gotta poop. Oh, I see.

I thought this was like, I got the sense that this was like, you know, a pregame chili dog gone awry in the middle of the match. No, I haven't given it a lot of thought. But I think also, like the way the way that they do the joke, I did think there was like a dropping trial aspect in her instead of an accident, you know, which and if you getting, if you're dropping trial, then there's intentionality.

As we've learned from the toddlers in our lives. Circle us back to Valentina's press conference at the end of the film. That was great when she walked in, she just come right through here. They walked through the curtain. I need to let you guys know that, so I Googled Valentina's watch, you know,

cause I had some questions. This was your number one question. So she was wearing a Cartier pen there, but I googled Valentina's watch, you know, because I had some questions. Oh yeah, this was your number one question. So she was wearing a Cartier pen there, but I was like, I haven't really seen it in rose gold that often. It obviously is available, but now I have it up and like Cartier has been just like the AI chat bots have been messaging me for 30 minutes being like, would you like to buy this $40,000 watch? How many have you bought during the recording of this podcast? Yes. Uh, Valentina very deftly introduces these characters as the new Avengers at the end of this movie.

And then there's a great moment when Yelena steps up and whispers in her ear, we own you now. Uh, which is what I whisper to Amanda after every episode. And uh, you know, this crew has taken the place seemingly of the Avengers, but I feel like actually of Guardians of the Galaxy. Like my take on this is that they are like still kind of the second or third team, but they're a really likable team.

Yes, hands raised. At some point there was speculation. Why did you raise your hand? We're on a podcast. You have a microphone. At some point, I just, I didn't want you to get too far away from the naming and the reveal because there was a lot of speculation.

Yeah. Am I, am I misremembering that the speculation was that they would be the dark Avengers? Well, I picked that up from you guys. That was, that was, that was definitely out there. But I think I was Avengers was also very, I was mad because I thought it was, I thought it was a dark Avengers lock and I was like new Avengers. That seems lame. That's like new Coke.

I think there is a little bit of truth to that and that is revealed once we get into the Stingers, the first mid-credit Stinger. That's why I think it works. We'll see how they handle it in the future. One of the challenges I think of this movie is that it is very delicately on this tightrope between arch post-Wedon quippery

and sincere, at times even thoughtful drama. And I'm not sure what these other movies that are coming are gonna be. And that's a very complicated thing, whether or not they're gonna be able to meet that. And the new Avengers post-credit stinger, which is actually like a real stinger of consequence. That's the other thing is like,

I just feel like every stinger for the last five years, this has not been about or meant anything to where the story is going. This one actually does. It literally is connecting to the next film. It skips ahead 14 months. We learn by Yelena complaining that Sam Wilson has trademarked the name Avengers.

Great stuff. Yeah. And so they need to find a way to counteract this trademark infringement that they are engaged in, even though they are working out of Stark Tower and that they are ostensibly the real Avengers. And then they get like some sort of signal that there's a ship, an extra dimensional ship entering their atmosphere. Fantastic Four.

We see the Fantastic Four. We see the Fantastic Four rocket ship. Mm-hmm. Did you care about this? I did that the whole drive home and Adam was like, please stop. I was like, not until July 25th. It set us up quite nicely for the next two and a half months.

I mean, it felt very, you know, brand integrated in a way. They also, we saw this movie in IMAX, which was great. And they had a special IMAX countdown that was a Fantastic Four IMAX countdown. I had a minute where I was like, are we about to see like a special preview of Fantastic Four, which was not what happened. And, you know, it was a little-

Little suspicious. Yeah, it was a little- Little suspicious. Yeah, it was like a lot of synergy and like PowerPoint-y, you know, brand activation to me. I did appreciate that it was not, here's a character you may or may not meet in the next 12 years. It was like, this is the next movie. So, it actually, just from a timeline perspective,

I was like, all right, 14 months, that's the time when the Fantastic Four in whatever universe they're in, when they find their way to our universe or the universe of this movie, that's when it's going to be. So it was like not nothing? I thought the mid credits with the Wheaties box at the grocery store with Alexei was just very charming and funny and I love him and I just think David Harper should be in everything. That's pretty much my take. He's really your type.

Oh my fastball down the middle. Oh my God. I mean Hopper in Stranger Things I think is like one of like the sexiest characters in the history of television. When your husband resembles David Harper. The bigger the belly, the better, you know? I just love him.

The melding of a few things of consequence in the post credits. One, Alexi coming out in like basically an F1 racing suit with the Z, like I got around the copyright by putting a Z at the end of Avengers and also just the little touch of all of the sponsors on this like an Xbox, this is very funny. We learned something important,

which is like Bob is powered down. That is, I think a crucial and again, like an Xbox, like this is very funny. We learned something important, which is like Bob is powered down. Right. That is, I think a crucial and again, to your point, very like not in a bad way, but you do, you understand the formula of the MCU. They have to explain that a character who has been clearly established as unbelievably powerful, when Doom comes into the mix,

will not be using those powers, right? So that will be a part of the story. Is like, how do we power Sentry up? Of course. That he won't be using those powers? No, but that'll be part of it, is like, how do we power him up? We need you, bud. We need you to face Doom. It's just a great idea for the most powerful hero

to also be the most powerful villain. Exactly. So that I thought was great. And then, like, showing us the Fantastic Four ship, wonderful. I think the timeline point you make is interesting. Like, anecdotally, I think a thing I have heard, even amid the Fantastic Four excitement, from a lot of people who are superhero movie fans, is like...

Well, we know. Like, we know they got to make it into their continuity, and we know we're doing Doomsday, we know we're doing Secret Wars. So like, does it take anything away from Fantastic Four first steps to just assume that they're exiting at the end? I don't really feel that way about it, but I wonder if this,

I do wonder if actually anyone will bump on that aspect of the stinger. To me, it was just like euphoria and I think a much better example of how to give us more detailed specificity and like clarity about a thing we know, which is like all of these continuities are melding, incursions are coming, we know what we're headed toward.

The stinger in Brave New World, which was the leader being like multiverse, as you know, I thought was just actively like insulting. It's like we're two phases into the multiverse saga, like yeah. This was really fun. It was an exciting end note for the movie. It's an exciting way into the next one. And it's much more like in keeping actually with showing us Thor's hammer before Thor. It's like this is actually the next thing and also then the bigger thing.

It's not only like a little wink to the next individual story, but also the larger team up to come. So I thought that was great. Yeah. And it's one more reason why I was like, this is kind of a 2013 Marvel movie, which was a time when I was at totally at peace with 2.3 of them coming out per year and enjoying them sometimes, but very rarely being angered by them. So as I said, 13 movies since Spider-Man Far From Home

and since frankly, since COVID. Yeah. This is the second best one or the best one? Maybe the third best one? Not a Guardians 3 fan over here. I love No Way Home and Guardians 3. Those would be the two that I think are- No Way Home is, I think, better, in my opinion.

It has higher highs as a movie on the whole. I think Thunderbolt is more consistent, especially through the final hour, but the excitement of No Way Home is kind of unmatched. Yeah, I mean, incredible. Those are the top three for me in phases four and five. I'll probably have to see Thunderbolt a second time before setting my order there.

I really love No Way Home, and I really love Guardians 3. I just, I mean, the rocket stuff in Guardians 3. I just like, I could cry right now thinking about it. I loved it. It was great. Could you cry right in Amanda's face while you... I mean, I'm glad that he's okay. I don't believe in animal cruelty.

So that's not... Brave take. Wow. Interesting. Didn't want to hear James Gunn talk about his dog, but draws the line at active animal cruelty. Yeah, basically, you guys do do your thing. And I'll do mine. you guys do your thing. Yeah.

And I'll do my. Thank you for your service. Yeah. My somewhat tongue in cheek, but also not question in the title of this episode is, is it too late? That the feeling that I mentioned of the bloom being off the rows, that these movies are now only for super fans, that the normal movie fan

who likes to go to blockbusters but who has lost a sense of the continuity, hasn't watched the TV shows, movie fans not going back two, three, four times to see these movies. Is it too late? Can this be completely revived and taken us back to a place that more looks like 2014, 15, 16? What do you think? I don't think so, but I don't think that... Well, I'm sure Disney shareholders won't be pleased with the new adjustment, but I think it can get to a new medium ground where the people who are fans of this, which is really sizable because that's the other thing. An entire generation of kids, including your sister, Sean, grew up being obsessed with these movies,

learned to go to the movies because of these movies. I think movies, non-Marvel movies, are now experiencing the downstream effect of kids being trained to go, at least for a big event movie. So they'll keep going, and that's a sizable amount of people. I don't know if it's going to be the most important thing culturally. Like in the same way, with respect, that like House of Dragon,

which has like tons of viewers and is like a really big deal is still, it's not really a Game of Thrones level, just like in terms of cultural import, but like it's doing great and everybody but me watches it. And, you know, and... I think that's a very good comparison. So, and like, I think that that's a good outcome for basically everyone except for, you know, capitalism and the corporate interests involved in this. It's a smaller piece of the pie for Disney.

Right. I think the comp ultimately to like people liking this, it doing well, and most crucially of all people being like characters I didn't think I gave a shit about, I've come to care about both in a way that will lead me to the theater to see it and then to invest in what they do moving forward. The comps are much more like Guardians or Ant-Man or honestly even like something like Ragnarok, though Thor was very established by that point, then the Spider-Man movies

or obviously any of the Avengers movies. It's just Thunderbolts was never gonna be that despite being the hammer film at the end of a phase and despite being a big team up movie. It's just like, that's not the tier that this film's playing in. So to your core question, the test for that is still, I think, this isn't the test for that.

I think that if Thunderbolts generates enthusiasm, that's just a win. The test is gonna is still, I think, this isn't the test for that. I think that if Thunderbolts generates enthusiasm, that's just a win. The test is gonna be Fantastic Four. The test is gonna be Doomsday and Secret Wars. And of course, the test, ultimately, is X-Men, for as it's sustainable beyond this. But see, to me, X-Men, they can't, they won't, it won't get screwed up.

I think that they still have a chance to, even if they fuck up the Avengers doomsday. So the X-Men will come again after the Avengers. Probably at the end of Secret Wars would be my guess. Right, cause they had the chairs. Yeah, I think that'll just be like the focus of the next phase. But I mean, yeah, we've got a lot of X-Men presence already,

obviously at this point, but yes. I think we'll probably see all of the Fox X-Men blipped out in some way in Doomsday, and whoever some of the new X-Men will be in Secret Wars would be my guess, but I, people, you know, I'm gonna be like 50 years old when that movie comes out and I'm still gonna be like, I wonder who the new X-Men are,

which characters did they choose, what era, you know? Like I just, I care, like I'm just invested. Chris and I have talked about this, like we're getting old and we're still like, X-Men is still the only thing that matters ultimately, so, and Kevin Feige knows that. And he knows that he can prey upon that. And also the fact that when you're nine and you meet the X-Men for the first time, you're like, this is fucking cool, man.

This is great stuff. So even if the next three or four years are not ultimately that successful, this is a good sign. It is a smaller movie. It's tracking for $70 million right now. I would say that's an under. Okay. Perfume suggestion. To me it feels more like 85, 95, maybe even 100. Yeah.

Which would be a big success. Yeah. I think if it underperforms 70, flashing red light. Yeah, but this should have such strong word of mouth, right? I think we'll have good not great. The reviews are gonna be good. We're in a different time with word of mouth. Don't you think, I feel like even just my

anecdotal word of mouth today.'t you think, I feel like even just my anecdotal word of mouth today. Positive. Yeah, but like. My critic friends are like, this movie's good. Yeah, but like, it's not bad. Yeah, certainly not. Yeah.

It's not bad. It's not a disaster. And even parts of it were acceptable. The other thing that we were not even counting on a few months ago, but that has obviously happened, is you've got the two biggest movies of the year are in theaters right now. So people are more likely to be in theaters.

Well, the three biggest movies of the year are in theaters right now. Thank you. You must be, are you just high on the hog right now with that? I mean, as you know, it's one of the most important movies in my life. As you also-

But you didn't go. I couldn't go last weekend. I was honestly despondent, but as I told you and Chris last night and have mentioned on RingerPPods before, it is the movie. Titanic is second, just to restore our bond before I say the thing I'm gonna say next. It is the movie I have seen in theaters

more than any other movie in my entire life. How many times? Can we ever trust our own memory? Who knows? My recollection is that I saw Revenge of the Sith seven times in movie theaters. Like at its initial release. When it came out Revenge of the Sith seven times in movie theaters. Like at its initial release. Same movie theater or different movie theaters?

Different theaters. But I couldn't get enough. I couldn't get enough and I still can't. I rewatched it this week. I don't know if there's time. You have a chosen one! I love that final sequence. It's great.

So much of it is so bad. I mean, you know, it's Star Wars people. Anytime Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are in a scene together, it is abominable. It is one of some of the worst writing of all time. I'll invite you to revisit clones. That's worse? Yeah. Attack of the Clones, that stuff is also bad.

And yet, there are some fights that I really enjoy. Sure, pretty cool kids, you know? It's a really good part in the accountancy where Ben Affleck's character is playing with the lightsaber. Was listening to Chris and Andy talk about this driving in. I was listening to Chris and Andy driving in today talking about this because they were talking about Star Wars, Starfighter and like how that's actually kind of an inspired name for a movie and Chris was like,

they should just call one Star Wars, lightsaber. Or actually Andy said that and then Chris was like, I would go. And then they talked about the account. Do you think Starfighter is a good title? No. The word star is already in Star Wars. This is like a show I really love,

is Rings of Power as you know, but the Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power is too many repeating words for me. We learned at the feet of great journalists and editors that like titling is critical. So it's Star Wars colon Starfighter? Yes. Who's the Starfighter?

Ryan Gosling. Oh, that movie is going to be Star Wars Starfighter? He's just going to be in space. He's going to be in space for the next few years because he's also doing Project Hail Mary. Wonderful. Oh my god. I just, I can't tell you how excited I was.

You're going to like Project Hail Mary. No, I know. Dude, like they cold opened with it after, and it was, I'd had several cocktails, and then suddenly there was Ryan Gosling, and I was just like, oh! I sent him so many texts about it, and you had to actually at one point say to me, this movie doesn't come out for two years. Like, please, the implication was, please stop texting me.

It's January 2026, not 2027, right? It is? No, January 2026. 26. 26. Is it January or summer? I think it's just. It is? No, January 2026. 26. 26. Is it January or summer? I think it's just.

I would have said it was like March, but Project Hail Mary movie. This is great podcasting. March. March 20, yeah, I was right. One year, one year away. I can't fucking wait. It was unusual in the presentation at CinemaCon

to open your presentation with a movie that's. They had several movies, this is Amazon, that don't come out till next year. And then one movie that we all thought was totally made up about Hugh Jackman and sheep. Oh, exciting. Yeah, you can imagine what happens in that movie. He solves a crime. Um...

Any, uh... What did you think happened? What did you think I meant? No, I answered your big gulp question. I won't be making the same mistake again. Any closing thoughts on Thunderbolts? You liked it? I had a lot of fun. I just, I don't know. I'm like... It's refreshing to not be mad about a Marvel movie. Yeah, I care about the MCU deeply,

and I love comic book movies, and I love the characters, and I love the story, and I'm so invested in this connected universe at this point in my life. But like, the thing I love the MCU deeply and I love comic book movies and I love the characters and I love the story and I'm so invested in this connected universe at this point in my life. But like the thing I love most about it is sharing it with my friends, genuinely not to be too corny about it. So it's like, it is actually exciting to have a Marvel movie that people are like

not actively dreading discussing with each other. That's really just a wonderful thing. Six months ago I was like, I know I want Mal to be on the Thunderbolts episode, and it worked out just as I envisioned. I was like, let's not have an angry hand wringing, like, oh, this again. Like, I don't, you know, I'm so sick of doing those pods, even though they got to do it when the movie isn't good.

Yeah. How do you feel? You feel good? It felt nice to go home and be asked how the movie was and be like, not bad, you know? Which, and I say that about Marvel movies and also just like about our movie going here. Not bad, and here's a link to a watch I would like for Christmas this year.

No, I'm a tank girl. I'm just, yeah, I can't do, listen, yeah. As I said, I thought it was a little too on trend for that character. That's okay, I liked the suit. We know Val is very presentational, you know? It was a rough Q1, you know? For movies and for life.

We've fully come out of it. Exactly, but it's like you and I were sitting there in Vegas on April 1st just being like, we're struggling. I was distraught. So I feel uplifted. I was like, what happened to my beautiful movies? This sucks. And now I feel good. I don't know if I feel great, but I feel good.

All right, great. Well, now thank you. Where can we find you? Hey, check out House of R. We're doing deep dives I feel great, but I feel good. Yeah. All right, great. Well, now thank you. Thank you. Where can we find you? Hey, check out House of R. We're doing deep dives right now on two of the best television shows that exist. Okay.

The Last of Us and Andor. We're covering them at the same time. Gotta catch up on Andor. And that's a thrill. Well, they're airing three episodes a week, so you are rapidly behind. As of tonight, you will be six hours behind. That's fucked up.

It's their hour long? Their an hour long. Were they shorter last season? They were a little bit shorter. There were some more episodes last year that were in the 40s. I got to finish the last season, but I can't cause I gotta watch 45 Palm Newman movies.

Cannot recommend it highly enough. I love the first season. Great television show. I really liked what I saw and then I had big pick work to do and then Zach went ahead. So now I'm just like really, it's fine. To move it up your list, I'm going to send you a link to a video the title of which is One Hour of Mon Mothma Dancing.

Okay. I'm going to send that to you. It will spoil something. I'll watch it. I'm open to it. Tony Gilroy for life, you know. Spark your enthusiasm. Yeah, Gilroy. What a time to be the watch. Thank you for being you. Thanks for being you.

Thanks for being on the pod. Thanks to Jack Sanders for being him, the producer of this episode. Thanks to Amanda for all of your wonderful insights. Science Corner was great today. We will be back next week on the show. What are we doing? Oh my gosh. 35 over 35. 35 over 35.

Oh, I love that. That's one of my favorite episodes of the year. We have not done a movie star ranking for people older than 35 in two years. 35 over 35. Oh, I love that. That's one of my favorite episodes of the year. Oh, thank you. One of my favorites. We have not done a movie star ranking for people older than 35 in two years. So the national research group has done whatever the fuck they do and given us yet another bit of data. Charles Holmes and I also did this. Did you?

We did a summer movie star preview on Jam Session. Oh, very cool. Yeah, I'm going to be honest. Not a lot of movie stars in the firmament, but that's okay. Not ideal. Nevertheless, we will be doing it here on Tuesday. We'll see you then.