The Big Picture - Top 10 Movie Musicals and ‘In the Heights’

Episode Date: June 11, 2021

Sean and Amanda discuss one of the year's most anticipated movies, 'In the Heights,' a movie adaptation of the Tony-Winning Lin-Manuel Miranda musical that is now in theaters and available on HBO Max (0:30). Then they discuss what makes a great movie musical and share their 10 favorites (45:00). Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head into the Ringerverse to stay up to date with all things superheroes and nerd culture entertainment. Hosted by a rotating lineup of superfans at the Ringer, including Mallory Rubin and Van Lathan, shows will provide instant reactions to blockbuster releases, insightful backstories on canon, and mind-bending theories, as well as fresh takes on the latest news and rumors. Check out the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about what we do with 96,000.

Today on the show, we are discussing In the Heights, a movie adaptation of the Tony-winning Lin-Manuel Miranda musical, which is now in theaters and on HBO Max. We will also be sharing our top five favorite movie musicals, and Amanda will be singing every word of this episode. Here you go, Amanda. Take it away. You think that by joking, you'll get me not to do it, but it's just I got numbers for every single musical on this list. The real issue is that I also have some dance moves that I'd like to communicate to people, but this is not a visual medium. So just imagine a lot of jazz hands just throughout this podcast because I'm having a great time. The Amanda groove, the sort of like the body shimmy

shake move that you do. No, people can't see that, but I would say it happens like once every two to three episodes. So maybe we need like a word that indicates that Amanda is mid-dance. What should that word be? I don't know, dance break? Okay, dance break. Going forward, we will use dance breaks. To be in the theme of the episode? Let's talk about In the Heights.

This is a huge movie this year. It's one of the most anticipated movies of the year. It's been tabbed as an Oscar contender. It is, of course, based on a very successful musical that ultimately led to Hamilton. This is a of course, based on a very successful musical that ultimately led to Hamilton. This is a show that Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote with Chiara Alegria-Judez before Hamilton. I saw this show on Broadway, and I want to talk about that experience. But let's talk more specifically about the movie first. John M. Chu directed this movie. This is his first film since

Crazy Rich Asians. It's a portrait of one hot summer on a block in Washington Heights. It's about the Cuban and Dominican and Puerto Rican and black residents of this neighborhood. And it's about heritage and generational division and young love, ambition. What'd you think of In the Heights? I had a great time. We can talk about the aspects of the movie and what works and some things that don't work. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but in the sense of the energy and being back in theaters, and there is, as you said, a community aspect to this and a bit of a party aspect to this, and it's big and it's spectacle. And I did get swept away, especially in the big numbers.

And I love these kinds of movies. We'll talk about that as well at great length. But I think it really does successfully communicate the energy of these characters and of this Washington Heights community and the musical itself. Yeah, it's a very challenging format. You know, we don't get a lot of great movie musicals these days. We still do get a lot. In fact, this year we're getting quite a few, but it's hard to pull off a big top mainstream movie musical right now. And I think we'll probably figure out why we think that's currently the case. This is the closest I've felt to getting swept up in the way that I have historically, especially in the 1950s musicals, which I love so much. It really is. It feels very indebted to

those films, those kind of technicolor films, while also obviously modernizing them in a big way. There are a couple of showstopping numbers in this show that are undeniable. I do think the movie as a whole is a pretty mixed bag. I think there are some aspects of it that are incredibly involving, and then there are others that really dragged for me. I think there are some aspects of it that are incredibly involving, and then there are others that really dragged for me. I think that's true of most studio-produced musicals, honestly. As I went back this month and I looked at a lot of these movies, almost all of them are two and a half hours. And the oversized movie musical is what is largely attributed to the introduction of the new Hollywood. It's those bloated, aspirationally prestigious, ripped straight from Broadway movies in the late 60s

that led to this incredible outgrowth of 70s filmmaking. But when the show is hitting, I think particularly when the Anthony Ramos character and the Melissa Barrera characters are together, I was like, this is as good as some of the most classic stuff. So, I mean, let's talk about the movie itself. So it's a movie that is effectively about four key characters in this neighborhood.

It was Navi, who is a shopkeeper, essentially runs a bodega, who's desperate to return to the Dominican Republic, where his family is from, where he was born, where he wants to open a sort of beachside market. Vanessa, who is the love interest of Usnavi, who wants to move away from her job at a local salon and move downtown to be a New York City designer. There's Nina, who is a student at Stanford, who has left Washington Heights, whose father runs a livery and taxi service service who really wants great things for her daughter. And then there's her love interest, who is Benny, who really wants Nina to be with him, but wants to preserve the neighborhood, but seems a little bit different from seeing the music alive for me. The Usnavi and Vanessa story, I thought, worked beautifully. And I did not think that the Nina and Benny story worked terribly well

and felt very tacked on at times. Did you feel like a sense of balance between the two? No. I mean, this is the Anthony Ramos show, first of all. He is so good in this movie. And he has the presence and the verve and just makes it all seem natural and exciting. And I think kind of one of the underrated aspects of a musical performance is the ability

to make what is just admittedly, it's a sentimental, how about that, art form. I was going to say corny and they're like corny. You have to give your feelings over to it, but someone who can make you feel completely normal and not ashamed of giving the feelings over to it and be like, this is, this is great. Let's just like put it all out there. And he absolutely does. And so when he's on screen, it's like, you know, good luck to everybody else. And that's not fair actually, because I think he also in like the, the large, the group numbers, the ensemble numbers really does bring everybody with him to

the energy, but he is absolutely leading the show. So yeah, I guess they were shoved to the side. I did not see the stage musical. So this was my first in the Heights experience. And I guess because I wasn't comparing it as much, I was like, okay, well I get what I get from these people. Um, I was honestly just like, is that Corey Hawkins? Yes, that is Corey Hawkins. I didn't know that he was like a musical and he was singing and dancing. I was like, great for him. So it's a little bit kind of what, you know, and like what they give to you, you know, this is a portrait of like of a neighborhood and people on a block. So you learn what you learn about them and you learn very

quickly who the star of the show is. Yeah, I completely agree. It's a major star making performance for Ramos who, you know, people have seen in, of course, Hamilton and The Star is Born and a handful of other films. But this is a, you know, above above the title this guy is now someone that we hopefully will be seeing in a lot more movies going forward he has a um a very casual charisma i would say too very natural very um the thing with musicals is there's an effortfulness that you can see in someone who can't quite communicate that corniness and his is is, it does feel effortless in a lot of ways. And so I really liked him. I thought both Corey Hawkins, who plays Benny,

and Leslie Grace, who plays Nina, were both very good in the film. I just think that a lot of times their story kind of bagged the film down a little bit. On the other hand, I do think that the supporting performances are really, really good. I think Daphne Rubin-Vega as Daniela is fabulous fabulous as the salon owner she has like kind of a big centerpiece performance and then kicks off kind of the closing major number um and then jimmy smith's my beloved jimmy smith's who i just i i

have i've never seen jimmy smith's in anything and thought anything other than this guy is just a man he is just a big open heart of manhood um and he plays Kevin Rosario, who is Nina's father, who is the livery and taxi service company owner, who is kind of a... He and Olga Merides are the sort of generational figures who are indicating the two previous generations who had emigrated to this country and tried to build lives for themselves, build families for themselves. And we kind of see the world through their eyes and through the eyes of their children. And both he and Olga are so terrific in this movie. I found myself wanting just a little bit more of them, honestly, and a little bit less of Benny and Nina. What did you think about the other members of the cast?

Just when Jimmy Smits shows up and he doesn't quite totally sing, right? He's sort of doing like a talk singing in the first number, but you're there and you're like, oh my God, it's Jimmy Smiths. And he's like singing and he's a part of this. It's really delightful. And there is also, we'll talk about the specific numbers, but Olga Meredith has kind of has like the number, certainly the emotional heart of In the Heights. And it is interesting that it is like the elder generation who gets that moment. But I think it's very funny in our outline. You listed all the performances and then you just wrote Oscar question mark next to her, which is like I do think a good point.

And if you called it, you called it now. But yeah. I think she will compete. I think she will definitely compete for an Oscar. She does. She gets to perform Paciencia y Fe, which is kind of, like you said, one of the biggest, one of the,

and also one of the numbers that I think is the most, that necessitates filmmaking. You know, it's a performance in a sequence that kind of transports you through time. Literally, she's on the subway at a certain point when she's delivering it it is the most cinematic i think of that and the pool sequence which is uh where 96 000 is performed which is sort of like this busby berkeley musical number that she has organized that is really fun and really exciting and incorporates basically the whole cast into the film when those kinds of sequences are happening i feel like this movie is fantastic, completely

involving and completely worthy of the big screen. You know, it's like, yeah, this is a real like if you can go to a movie theater to check it out, I would encourage people to do it because it will be way better than just sitting on your couch and kind of picking up your phone every 10 minutes because it's bright. It's beautiful. The production design, the costumes are incredible. Everybody's hair is incredible in this movie. There's something much more, it feels touchable in a way that a lot of other movies don't.

What else? Were there any other shows or songs that you dug? A few more. So Nomadiga, which is the salon number and is sort of the traditional, all the women getting ready. There's one of these in every musical which I really enjoy but this was like a particularly fun one in a large part because of Daphne Rubenvega as as you mentioned and also there are little flourishes throughout the movie they use animation but um in this particular case they just make all the wigs in the salon dance like a backup from

time to time it's just little notes like that where they're having fun. And also just like a lot of people all together. It is a great post-quarantine movie in that sense, right? It's just, it is about people in the streets all dancing simultaneously. You know, there's the choreographed. It's so, I really enjoyed that one. Let's see. You mentioned the pool number. Oh yeah, the Carnival del Barrio, which is like the sort of big street number in the second half. I'm sorry also if I'm not getting all the musical like sequence references right.

Because I haven't seen the original musical, but it's towards the end and it reminds everyone like the power of the community and brings all of the different people together and is really fun. And it's just's towards the end and it reminds everyone like the power of the community and brings all of the different people together and is really fun and it's just like a party um yeah i think um 96 000 paciencia fey and carnival del barrio look bigger and feel bigger than they did on stage um in the heights is was not a show that i liked very much if i'm being honest and i don't i think a little bit of it was the way that it was presented to me, which was this was well before Hamilton.

And so when people were explaining Lin-Manuel Miranda as somebody who brought hip hop to the musical format, I think that was not... I wish I had not heard that before I saw the show, because it created an expectation in my mind. And actually, I think my sort of mild reaction to In the Heights set me up well to sit down in Hamilton and kind of be a little skeptical about it. And then to be completely blown away,

we talked about that when we talked about the Hamilton, you know, movie adaptation that was on Disney Plus last year. But this show is, I think it's just a little bit hit and miss. Some of the numbers are incredible. Some of them are a little flabby. I think when the sun goes down in particular, the sort of like singing on the side of the buildings,

when we start to see like the skyscrapers tilt is attempting to create a kind of like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers moment in this movie that really did not work. And I was like- You're just really anti-Benny and Nina. You're just like not having it at all. I just didn't- I thought that was charming. I was like, oh, you're just really anti Benny and Nina. You're just like not having it at all. I just didn't.

That was charming. I was like, oh, you're trying it. It's nice. Young love. That to me was not necessarily, it wasn't about their performances.

It was just like, this is kind of where the filmmaking failed them a little bit where it doesn't work as well as some of the other big set piece numbers. And also, you know, it arrives around like the one hour and 55 minute mark. And I was like, can we,

let's just get on with this big romance here. You know, when is this going to wrap up? Cause the movie is, it feels a little long to me. Listen, too many ballads, too many ballads. I just, there are too many like ballads and then sort of mid tempo. Let me tell you what's going on with me in a musical form that will be recognizable to anyone who has seen Hamilton, which was interesting for me, right? I had never seen In the Heights, but very familiar with Hamilton as all culture consuming individuals are. And you can hear where he's figuring out the things that will become like a Schuyler

sisters song. You can hear some of the rhythms. You can hear the practice versions. And that's rude to say because, listen, I can't write a song at all as previously discussed on this podcast, but I, Hamilton is like the great achievement. And so sometimes in the down moments or in like yet another ballad, the other thing is just the energy of the ensemble scenes is so big that I just like want another, I don't want a down moment. I'm just like, keep going, keep going, keep going, which is I guess my internet generation, just like,

give me another set piece, give me another set piece. But yeah, it's, it's a little shaggy, but I, I don't know. I liked it when they danced on the side of the building. I think one of the things that's fun about it is it is a little bit of like a, um, it's not a sequel necessarily, but it's a, it's, but it's a relative of Hamilton in a few other ways, which is obviously Lin-Manuel Miranda originated the role of Usnavi. He's in this movie as Piroguero, the Pirogua guy who sells, you know, the sort of the icies on the street. He has a funny showdown with Mr. Softy at a certain point. You know, if you lived in New York at any time, which you and I did, it's just a very knowable, tangible version of New York

that we've occupied. I've been to Washington Heights many times. I wouldn't say it looks exactly like Washington Heights. That's not the point. It's a movie musical. It's meant to be a kind of elevated

and more colorful version of that lifestyle. Christopher Jackson, who played George Washington in Hamilton, actually plays Mr. Softy in this show. So there are these little dashes

of connectivity to Hamilton, which make it more fun. What did you make of the kind of dramatic tension of the movie? Did you feel like the story worked beyond the kind of glamorous and beautifully designed musical numbers? Because we get these big scenes with Jimmy Smits and Nino. We get this big scene with Usnavi and Mark Anthony, who plays his uncle, I believe. How did you feel about the more high-tension, emotional elements of the movie? Fine. It's a musical. It's a soap opera. I knew that that's what I was getting. That doesn't bother me at all. It is a little bit, as you said, the B romance, which I liked very much, for the record. I thought

it was very sweet when they turned the thing sideways and they're having a nice moment. But yeah, I don't want to say thin, but they don't spend like a huge amount of time on character development or it's very broad strokes. But that's fine with me. I still got a sense of who all these people were. I was rooting for them. I knew exactly what was going to happen before it happened. I'd never seen this musical. I knew what was coming after Passenger Faye, but like, that's okay.

I was still moved by it. Like it's, it's fine. It is. It's, it's broad strokes as many musicals are. I think it's a, it's,

it's generally speaking a successful movie. I think we would both recommend it. It's the, the first really in what feels like a pretty major year for musicals. So, you know, we know about West Side Story, Steven Spielberg's forthcoming re-adaptation. We've got Dear Evan Hansen and everybody's talking about Jamie. And speaking of Lin-Manuel Miranda, his directorial debut, Tick, Tick, Boom, the trailer for which just premiered this week. Why is it a year for musicals? Aside from the pandemic,

like movies rolling over to 2021, what do you think happened here that we're getting five or six mainstream studio produced musicals? Hamilton. Yeah. In one word, Hamilton. It was extremely successful. People made a ton of money off of Hamilton and it proved that with the right marketing, there can be a lot of attention in this form again. I think that really misunderstands basically everything that makes Hamilton what Hamilton is. And I am including just like talent and vision and inventiveness from Len Manuel Miranda, first and foremost. But so we'll see about everything else. But you know, this is how Hollywood works. One thing works and then they just Xerox 4000 of them.

Yeah. What do you make about of In the Heights as an Oscar contender in general this year? It was it was tabbed early on. Obviously, John Chu, there was some buzz similarly for Crazy Rich Asians before that film was released. Similarly, a summer movie, a crowd pleaser. This is going to be a major crowd pleaser. Crazy Rich Asians ultimately did not get very much Oscar love. Do you think this movie has a chance? They still don't do very well at summer movies and summer crowd pleasers. There's something snooty about it but if you release it at christmas then everyone's like oh sure what you know what a it's recency bias so we'll see on the flip side we're not good at predicting anything about the oscars anymore so who knows yeah it did it did have me thinking given that they just announced the march 27th oscar date that that is it's far far away from

now that is eight nine months from now. So we'll see. Let's talk about musicals more generally. Movie musicals more generally. Yeah. It occurred to me last night. I miss the theater. You know, not to sound like a complete clown,

but it's been a long time since I've been in the theater. Not a movie theater, but the theater. Right. Living in New York, you get very spoiled. It's at your fingertips all the time. It's very expensive. But when you go to see a great musical or a great play, it is a singular experience. And you come to take it for granted when you live in New York. I haven't lived in New York for nine years now. And I miss that part of it. I miss being able to go, no, there's theater

here. It's not quite the same. It's usually second run cast for hit musicals. Usually it's smaller plays that actors are working on in between their big tentpole projects. Movie musicals are different. Totally different. So in your mind, what's the difference? What doesn't translate necessarily to a movie musical? Frankly, the pacing and the visual aspect of it because a theater and a musical in a theater is bound by one space and and also the time limits and how the shows are constructed and you're just in a theater i guess you are more willing to sit there and just like have people

sing at you for three hours but like which they Lord, do they sing at you? But a movie musical has to be adapted to usually two, but usually two and a half and three with my beloved sound of music, which is fine. I think it's wonderful. We'll talk about it. But to the time, but also the space and the screen, and you have more space because you don't have to keep it on one stage. And if you do, it can be pretty flat. You know, Sean loves filmed plays, but the rest of us do not. But then also being able to communicate like the movement and specifically the choreography. And for me, the dancing and the choreography and how it's filmed is the key thing. As I was preparing for this, I realized that basically movie musicals are my animated movies.

And a little bit because of that's just what I... Listen, I watched all the Disney movies. Like, don't... My parents didn't deny me. But I also watched specifically the 50s and 60s musicals as a kid. But it's bright colors and songs and things moving in like fantastical organized ways across the screen that they wouldn't in real life. But you're in kind of this suspended fantastical reality and everything usually works out okay, which is again, I know

reductive of the great art of animation, but you see where I'm going. Like there are a lot of visual comparisons. And the other thing is just when I watch some of these dance sequences, I just grin. This is like, this is pure joy for me. This is for whatever reason, just where I'm happiest. So I completely agree with you that the choreography and the visual execution is obviously the key distinction between the two.

I'll give you an example. I went back and looked at, at least started, a bunch of classic musicals, quote-unquote classic musicals, that I had never seen before. Some of them were wonderful. I watched Funny Girl for the first time last night. I'd never seen it before. Barbra Streisand's first film.

Holy shit. What a great movie. Like, what an amazing... It got me thinking about what are the all-time best movie star debuts? Because imagine, I mean, she had been on Broadway in that show before, but she just shows up and she is unreal. It's crazy how charismatic and powerful she is. On the other hand, I watched Oklahoma for the first time. I'd never seen Oklahoma. And I like the musical Oklahoma. They did Oklahoma in my high school when I was growing up,

and I had never seen the movie. I really liked the songs from Oklahoma quite a bit. So Fred Zinneman made Oklahoma, and this is the director of High Noon, From Here to Eternity, like a heavyweight in the 40s and 50s. And I thought it was pretty bad. And one of the reasons I thought it was pretty bad

is because I didn't think it did a great job of what you were just describing, which is it was not a very cinematic movie. You get these beautiful vistas in Oklahoma, but the dancing and the choreography, I mean, the first 25 minutes of the movie is completely inert. There's not a single dance sequence. In fact, the camera is just like sitting on actors' faces as they sing, which is not a movie. You know, like it doesn't, it weirdly didn't justify itself cinematically. And so as I was thinking about what I like about these movies, I had the same thought.

You know, like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is not on my list. I don't think it's on yours either. But even if the songs and the story of that film are not as good, you can't take your eyes off it because every sequence is this extraordinary choreographic orgy, really. I mean, it's just so high level. It's all of these people at the peak of their powers doing these great numbers together. So is very very different there's something so different

about being in a in a theater versus being seeing a film the songs thing is tricky because they obviously have to be good but i do think what's great in a theater versus what makes sense on the screen music wise is like slightly different in general you're just like I said more willing to watch someone like stand alone in the stage in the middle of the theater and like really sing at you and if they really got it they really got it and that's such a like a communal experience right of being there having someone be that vulnerable to you which you know normally I hate but when they can make it work there's's nothing like it. And you can have that on the screen as well. And there are some really transcendent, um, moments, you know, I think you shared the Judy Garland, um, the, the man that got away or the

one that got away, whichever it is. Um, I, I, I literally was just rendered speechless. Like, what do you say about those four minutes? It's nothing like that. But it is harder. Not everyone's Judy Garland, as we have learned time and time and time again. See also Renee Zellweger. And so you want something that will hold people's attention on the screen. And you also, like, if the songs are too good, then you feel compelled to just shove them all in. And, like, the songs kind of get in the way because you, like for the most part,

straight sung, you know, like recitative musicals on film, like don't totally work for me. I have one on my list and there's a very specific reason for it. We'll get to that

when we talk about it. But like that's a specific filmmaking decision. Like they're doing that thing for a reason. Yeah, I mean, that's really more opera, operetta, you know, the idea of just kind of singing through. I think for the most part, that doesn't work. Cinematically, I think the difference,

the other key distinction, and this is related to the songs and the choreography that we're talking about, is performance. The performance, you know, movie performance and theater performance are vastly different. Now, there are some famous movie stars, movie actors like Judy Garland who just go for broke, who are just, I mean, she in that sequence in A Star is Born, which is one of the most

amazing sequences in the history of movies to me, where she goes from this little tiny mouse to this extraordinary lion in the span of four minutes is crazy. But you don't always have to go to a lion to make a musical performance work in a movie. You can be more subtle. Not everything has to be sung at the absolute top of your register. And so that's not as true on Broadway. On Broadway, there is an expectation that you are literally singing for the back of the theater, that you need everyone to hear you. And the smaller, more reserved, more subtle moments, I think, are really important to making a musical successful when you're watching it in a movie format. Anything else? What else makes a great movie musical, I guess? Is there anything, are there any hallmarks? So yes, a few. One that I noticed is that almost all of the musicals

that I picked for my list have some sort of built-in nostalgia. They're made in whatever decade they're made, but they're about a time that's earlier. And there's just something in that that acknowledges like, this is not, you know, this is a nostalgic format, right? This is something that like we used to do and you can give it like a, just, there's a bit more sentimentality. You're willing to kind of go with it a bit because there's that

distance in like, this is not people like right now breaking out and kind of song to you. So it's like hard to sell. So I guess some of it is just adding to the fantastical element of it. I did notice also that a lot of my musicals are show within a show or meta in some way are about performing as much as they are performing themselves. I'm trying to think, what are some of yours? That's really interesting. I guess the kind of show within a show thing

is pretty consistent in mine too it does feel like even as I look at my list almost all these movies are about people who want to perform or do perform for a living so you know and they're all kind of commentaries in a way I don't know I think you also need I think this is a case where you need a filmmaker with a vision I know that's a little where you need a filmmaker with a vision. I know that's a little bit of a cliche thing for me to say,

but the big difference between the great musicals and the great musicals adapted for film is usually the director, is usually the person who says, I see not just the thematic core of this story, but I see how to translate it to this format. And so most of the movies that I picked have masters of their craft behind them. It's actually kind of an interesting contrast.

I think most of yours are the same way with a couple of exceptions. And I think why and when we saw these movies is the other key aspect to this. It's like- Yes, of course. If you saw a musical between the ages of 6 and 13 it probably imprinted on you in a big way and you almost can't see the

specific choices that are being made you can't even really see it through clear objective eyes you know you have to you're you're evaluating it only through the the way that a musical you know the wizard of oz of, is on my list. One of my favorite movies of all time. I don't even know how to watch that movie anymore. I watch that movie the same way that I listen to The Beatles, where I'm just like, this is just safe. This just makes me feel comfortable.

And that reminds me, neither of us put any of The Beatles movies on our list. Well, I was pretty strict about how I put my list together. And there are just so many movies that aren't on my list that I feel really bad about. And I also knew that Sean would put, like Wizard of Oz isn't on my list. Guys, Wizard of Oz is one of the greatest movie musicals

ever made. Like, please don't hold this against me. I just knew that Sean would put it on his list. And so I wanted to do something different. But in terms of how I put my list together, it pretty much, you had to have song and dance numbers. You had to have a little of that razzmatazz. So just like a musical film or a film with a lot of music or a film about musicians who I love once again, thank you musicians for all that you do. But, and like A Hard Day's Night actually does have, like the way that they move together,

they are choreographed and there are some set pieces. But it's like, it's a fake autobiography, it's a fake biography about the Beatles. So it's a slightly different thing. That would be a very loose definition of a movie musical. I rewatched A Hard Day's Night this week too.

And- It rules? It just doesn't feel like a musical. You you know especially like in the final 30 minutes all of the musical performances are basically just that you know it's like them on a version of ed sullivan at the end of the film and like it's amazing it's the beatles in 1964 so it's electrifying but it's just them on stage playing songs and and young people freaking out in the audience so it's missing some of a lot of the details, I think, that we're talking about here so far. And I was looking, obviously, at a bunch of lists to try to put mine together. And movies like, well, obviously, like all the A Star Is Born.

I don't have any of the A Star Is Born on my list, even though they're just absolutely iconic movies. You do. You put. I did a last minute swap. You did a last minute swap. OK, well, that's good because I did feel like a little bad about it but you know the more recent one again it's like about a musician people would also put things like that thing you do on which is like not a movie musical but it's a movie about musicians and also i love and like at some point i'm gonna get that thing

you do on this podcast just not today okay let me, let me ask you this. So I just saw, I saw the movie Respect, the Aretha Franklin movie. Right. I'm not allowed to talk about whether that movie is any good or not at the moment, but there are obviously musical sequences in the movie in which we see the artist writing and performing songs. Right.

You know, there are other examples of this. Bohemian Rhapsody, Rocketman. Dream Girls. Well, but Dream Girls was a stage play. Dream Girls is a stage play. But I'm thinking more of the music biopic that transforms into a kind of musical. Like, do you consider, like Ray,

do you consider things like that eligible for this conversation? Walk the Line, maybe? So Walk the Line, no. Again, a movie that I really love, but all of the musical numbers are either kind of songwriting or concert numbers

within a story about two musicians who gave a lot of concerts. So I consider it music biography. I honestly haven't seen Ray in however many years, so I don't know how much of it is kind of concert versus big stage numbers. The thing, the distinction is maybe like an unnatural song, music and dance numbers. It's not like when people

would normally just start singing and dancing and like suddenly there are 55 people dancing in front of you. And like, why are you doing this? I have one exception to that on my list and i do as well i will explain my why i have it on my list yeah i think that's a good rule yes the exception makes the rule absolutely um what's your favorite era of these movies 50s or 60s and it's like kind of 50s into early 60s i mean i have a real soft spot for all of the movies that everyone in the 60s hated just so much that they had to go out and make Bonnie and Clyde, but that's fine. Like, I was five. So I wasn't five. I wasn't born then. And then I was shown all these movies at five. Like, here is the movie that is the most important to me that's not on my list. Mary Poppins. Mary

Poppins is not on my list. And I'm betraying my three-year-old self. But as previously discussed on this podcast, I'm an adult now and not three anymore. So I'm allowed to make these distinctions. But I really did, like, I just got put in front of Mary Poppins and Sound of Music and Wizard of Oz and like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and all of those slightly more kid-friendly musicals. So I have a real soft spot for them. And then as I got a little bit older, like the 50s,

like the golden era, essentially, is really golden to me as well. Yeah, that's my favorite era by far. There are a lot of really cool kind of reinventions of musicals in the 70s. And there are a lot of really radical people making movies. You know, you have people like Ken Russell

who made like four or five musicals in that time but that vincent minnelli stanley donnan gene kelly george cucor era of movie making is and i i didn't come to those movies at an extremely young age i saw a lot of those 60s movies you're talking about when I was very young and some of the 70s movies too. I specifically remember, well, I'll save this for when we get to our list because I want to talk about seeing some of these things

for the first time. Yeah. I think it's really interesting where the genre sits right now. It really does move in almost decade-like fashion. You can kind of identify what is happening in Hollywood

based on the musicals that you're getting every 10 years. It's been a long, long time for me personally since a musical came along that I authentically loved. Even in the Heights, which I think is really good, would not come close to a list like this for me. So what has been going on in the last 15 years with movie musicals, I guess is my question. they're usually the good ones are based on musicals with some notable exceptions which we'll talk about no spoilers and i do think a new modern musical is really hard in part for what i said earlier about this idea that in our minds and the way we grew up watching these, it's kind of, it's a nostalgic old school art form. And I think when you can update it,

especially like Len Manuel Miranda has and new styles of music and new people. And, you know, in the musicals, like my, my list is full of white people. I'm just going to be,

you know, it's, it's old Hollywood, but to, to be able to renovate it and to, um, to find new ways to tell stories and new and people to tell stories about is great, but it's really hard. And most people fail at it. Most people are not as talented as Lin-Manuel Miranda. So I, I think that also, you know,

it's just weird when someone starts singing like a pop song in the middle of a conversation like we're just there's something about it that you need to remove in order for the form to work so a modern musical is really hard and then if you don't have the modern musical then the modern movie musical doesn't even make a lot of sense like la la land for example a recent movie musical that i do think works but it's not on my list because the movies that it is just like you know totally copying which i also love are the movies that are on my list yeah and i think some it's interesting you point out that there's just a lot of white people and a lot of the classics um obviously there are a variety of reasons for

that over the last hundred years of hollywood i did try to i i gave this some thought you know and there are a handful of semi-iconic black led musicals you know the whiz is probably one of them spike lee school days probably one of them i looked at sparkle again for the first time in a long time which is movie um directed by sam ostein that is really good uh i guess five heartbeats carmen jones There's a few that would be worthy of this. You mentioned Dreamgirls, which is a movie I never really loved, honestly. I think it has some great things in it, but I think it's also a little bit of a mixed bag.

Tremendous set pieces and performances and really does have the second hour, the bloat of just like, oh, okay, we're singing some more. Yeah. So I think that if we did this list 10 years from now, given everything that's been going on in Hollywood, it would look a little bit different.

Obviously, In the Heights is a story about largely Latino culture, which is not something that we've seen on movie screens very much in the last 75 years. So I guess that's a reasonable caveat to share before we dig into our list. So normally we do top fives on the big picture. There's too many good movie musicals

i couldn't i couldn't do a thing where i had three movies tied for fifth fourth third second and first right feel okay about it so i asked us to extend to 10 we'll go quickly through 10 through six did you have a hard time organizing your your ranking and your picks yes and there are so many that i didn't include and i started i i tried to do a little bit of like one for the list, one for me, while also making sure I hit all the like, making sure I had a Judy Garland, making sure you know, I had all like a Gene Kelly, etc, etc, 70s, 50s, 60s. So it's, it's a weird weird list it more represents my enthusiasms and some things i think that i think are great as opposed to like a complete you know definitive assessment of this genre because like i just said i knew sean would put wizard of oz on his list so it's not on mine

which is like what am i doing like what am i doing well i mean you know this is an this is an act of um of balance i think anytime we do these. While you're trying to anticipate what I'm going to do, I'm trying to anticipate what you're going to do. And also, I think I was trying to do something very similar, which is represent a number of different decades, a few different movie types, movie musical types. And try to get as many different kinds of filmmakers in there as I possibly could with one notable repeat, which I can't help myself. So let's- I mean, I did the same thing with literally the same filmmaker. So-

Different films, similar era. Let's go. Number 10, what do you got? I'm going for it. Moulin Rouge. Baz Luhrmann, 2001. This is the latest film on my list. I needed to have something.

Listen, in terms of the jukebox musical, which is a thing now, both, you know, I mean, it's always been a thing, but has really been the probably dominant form of modern musical and movie musical. I think it's the most creative and certainly the most cinematic they're doing a lot. And as my father said, when it was released in defense of this film, which is not something that I ever would have expected my father to do, he does not suffer silliness. He's like, you gotta respect any movie

that goes out of its way to build its climactic scene around Roxanne. Like that's just funny when the tango of Roxanne happens. I mean, it's not funny. It's like very serious in the context of the characters. I don't want to make light of it,

but it's like pretty funny once they start playing Roxanne. I had a lot of times jamming out in my car to Elephant Love Song and this was a phenomenon. So I salute Baz Luhrmann for making something completely fantastical set in like turn of the century Paris, which no one cares about, featuring weird songs that made as much money and touched as many lives as it did. Do you like most jukebox musicals?

Real, real mixed bag. Mamma Mia is not on my list. Though once again, let's just like take a moment to honor a film that includes Meryl Streep just absolutely wailing the winner takes it all at Pierce Brosnan like on a beautiful Greek island. That is the funniest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. It rules. I love that they did that. I do love movies that are like, what if we just all got to go to Greece for the summer and sing ABBA songs? Like, sure. That's what I want to.

That's what I would do if I were Meryl Streep. But it depends if you like the songs or not. They aren't usually cinematic. They're pretty like throwaway experiences, like fun and then I'll move on. And I think Moulin Rouge is at least thinking about what it is. Yeah, I feel like we're in a little bit of a hot moment for the jukebox musical on Broadway you know my my mom loved jukebox musicals she saw so many you know not just like your classics like Jersey Boys sure but she like was there a Billy Joel musical was that moving out with Twyla Tharp she was like

this is the shit there was a Carole King tapestry musical. She was like, this is incredible. I've always been a little lukewarm on them too. Like, across the universe, ostensibly, should be one of my favorite things. It does not work.

It doesn't work. You and I are like such snobs about the Beatles. We're like, just let the Beatles be the Beatles. Stop trying to make other people be the Beatles because there's only four Beatles.

I don't know. Across the universe is Julie Tamar, right? I know. That's what I'm saying. It should be so good. Well, stick to stage is what I don't know. Across the universe is Julie Tamar, right? I know. That's what I'm saying. It should be so good. Well, I stick to stage is what I have to say. Wow.

Damn. Stick to sports, but for stages. Rock of Ages also not a fan of that. Oh my God. I forgot that that happened. That was really funny though. The thing about jukebox musicals is that really famous people

seem to just be willing to completely embarrass themselves and do ridiculous things. It's like the closest that you'll get to going to karaoke with Tom Cruise or Meryl Streep. And I like that feeling. It's funny, but I'm as guilty of this as anybody. It's the thing where when you do karaoke and you're like, I'm a good singer. People should hear me sing. And then you hear yourself sing five minutes later and you're like, no one should ever hear me sing and then you you hear yourself sing five minutes later and you're like no one should ever hear me sing this is a huge mistake but people i guess if you're tom cruise you have the gumption to go ahead and do it mulan which is probably the only movie in

your list that i'm like kind of mad on i never really clicked with me it's like i just i had to go for it i also really had to do something after 2000 i don't have anything yeah recent i only have one as well we'll get to that in a minute. My number 10 is probably the least known of the 20 films that we'll talk about, but is one of the best without question. I've just rewatched it for the first time in many years. It's called It's Always Fair Weather. It's a post singing in the rain, Stanley Donnan and Gene Kelly collaboration. It's about three guys who come back from the war in New York City and who meet up at a bar and agree to meet again 10 years from now and see where they are in their lives. And the movie kind of unfolds from there. Fascinating, bright, technicolor, massive story that is also one of the most cynical, wounded, alienating pictures of post-war

masculinity ever made. That makes it sound a little bit more severe and maybe me parody than it actually is it it has all the hallmarks of singing in the rain but also um seems to be trying to dig into something uh a little bit more psychological honestly um it's also got some incredible showstoppers and one of the two or three best sid sharice performances you're ever going to see. We don't need superhero movies because we have Sid Charisse movies. The stuff that she does in this movie, especially there's a big set piece in the middle where she performs in a boxing ring with like 15 boxers. Holy shit. She's so great. There's a really, really,

really great musical right in the heart of the golden era of musicals that is a little bit underseen. It got a little bit of a boost when La La Land came out because Damien Chazelle went around and sung its praises and talked about it. And I think if you see some of the ennui in that Ryan Gosling character, that sort of like lost hope and aspiration that his character has, that's a big part of It's Always Fair Weather. If people haven't seen it, it's on HBO Max. It's an absolute jam. Number nine. I was going to make fun of you for post-war masculinity, but I don't want to say

anything negative in the Stanley Donnan and Gene Kelly space. I have too much respect. It's such a good movie, though. That's just me overreading it. It's also really, really fun and exciting

and also has like acid burn satire on the television industry. It was when movies were like, fuck TV. And they started making movies about how TV sucks and movies are the real shit so a lot of reasons to love it there's a really good uh like lit copy post like post-war masculinity joke in bridget jones diary that you know i won't repeat to you now but that's just what i was thinking about the whole time

it's really funny okay my number nine meet me in Meet Me in St. Louis. Directed by Vincent Minnelli, father of This Is the Movie, Where Vincent Minnelli and Judy Garland Meet. And I think this is my kind of classic 40s, always on TCM, kind of small scale, but very charming musical. It's about a family and Judy Garland pining for the boy next door. And one of like the famous songs. And as I've mentioned many times also where, um, have yourself a merry little Christmas is debuted by Judy Garland. So it does have a fair number of just Judy Garland,

like just singing her heart out alone on a screen in the family home. But there's the trolley song, which is very famous and, you know, people together in a street sort of, even though it's not, it's on a soundstage. And I think kind of the best case of like the comforting Rodgers and Hammerstein-y, even though it's not Rodgers and Hammerstein style. I don't know, just like a people, two people hoping to find love and a family and like a small

but comforting musical, I guess. Yeah, I think it's a really good one. But definitely one of the most beautiful movies that Vincent Minnelli ever directed. And that's saying something because he is

one of the masters of color. He really knows how to make films pop. And also amazing costumes in this movie too. Keeping it with Judy Garland, my number nine, I switched to Last Minute to A Star Is Born, the 1954 version directed by George Cukor starring Garland and James Mason.

And all because of the man that got away. We've been talking about A Star Is Born many times over the last three years. You're pretty familiar with the story of a successful musician who meets a young ingenue and brings her along and helps develop her career only to become insanely jealous and then create terror and anxiety and fear and frustration and sadness. You know, Judy Garland is, speaking of superheroes, you know, she just is the absolute

top of the pops. She's the best that's ever done it. 1954 is a really interesting year. This is the year that this movie was released along with a number of other incredible musicals. Brigadoon, which I've talked about on the show before. I just mentioned Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. White Christmas, speaking of Christmas classics the Glenn Miller story there's no business like show business and the aforementioned Carmen Jones that's all in one year so the mid-50s as the suburbs are starting to blossom as you know wealth is starting to run throughout this country it's clear what kind of entertainments people wanted. They wanted to go smile at the big screen and see people singing their hearts out. A Star is Born is actually quite a crushing film. It's three hours. It's incredibly melodramatic,

and it's beautiful to look at, but it's quite sad, but also just one of the best movies ever made. That's number nine. What's number eight? Bye Bye Birdie. In 1963. And I think, I guess maybe this is a personal pick. It's, I don't know how widely beloved it is because it's so beloved in my, I don't know, psyche. Directed by George Sidney and famously starring Anne Margaret. And this is like, if you want to talk about like debut film performances,

I don't know what to say. This does have the big set piece numbers. Like got a lot of living to do is just like a lot of teens dancing, even though none of these people look like teenagers at all. I think the telephone song, you know, is a great adaptation of a stage number to the screen and what what you can do on the screen that that you can't really in a theater but you also only just need and margaret in front

of a blue screen for three minutes or whatever sing bye-bye birdie it's it's electric this is i i don't even know what to say i'm completely mesmerized by and margaret i realized i probably like thought that that's what women were supposed to be for way too long. It's taught me a lot. Also taught me about Elvis. I realized like I definitely didn't know about Elvis before. Bye bye, Bertie.

But, you know, this is like a classic teen romcom, except I think it's a lot smarter than the types of teen musicals or entertainment that get made today. For example, like you compare this with high school musical, a lot more questionable ethics and a lot more sex and a lot more like a slyness and a winking aspect to it. It's a commentary on being a teen as much as a teen musical itself, but great stuff. Yeah, it is. It is satire and it is a satire of television.

Again, it's another movie that is looking at TV and the way that TV creates idolatry amongst musicians. I mean, this was a movie that was shown to me at a very young age, I think in school. I think I was in like a music literacy course or something like that and they showed it to me. You know, I think like we, my middle school did Bye Bye Birdie. And like, that's kind of how I knew about it. So I guess people think that it is like appropriate for teens, even though it's definitely making fun of teens and teen culture. It cuts both ways, right? It's like so much kind of generational bridge content that it, it speaks to young people and it also speaks to adults um good movie great movie my number eight is a little shop of horrors so similar another

movie that i saw at a very young age i think is a is a bit of a boy musical because if it's kind of phantasmagoric monster movie aspect it is a musicalized remake of a Roger Corman movie from the 1960s, which famously featured Jack Nicholson in a very early performance. I earned a new appreciation for this movie after I saw a documentary about the composer of the musical, Howard Ashman, who was a playwright and who participated in a lot of Disney films in the 90s, who died tragically in 1991. He kind of created Little Shop of Horrors from from stem to stick literally because it's about a giant man-eating plant and it also features like some of the best particularly Ellen Green who stars a is the star of the movie some of the best on-screen singing that you'll ever see in your

life I think the songs are really fun in this movie it also has like a little bit of a cheat code because the plant is voiced by uh levi stubbs who of course was the lead singer for the four tops for many years and has one of the like deepest most indelible voices in the history of pop music um it's just a really creative, exciting, weird movie. It's a really, really weird movie. Directed by Frank Oz, no stranger to puppets, hence him making this giant singing plant seem scary to 10-year-olds.

Another movie that I probably saw in that same class where they showed me Bye Bye Birdie. It's just a great time. And even though it was made in 1986, it still has not aged weirdly to me. It still has a wondrous sensibility. I didn't see Little Shop until college after I was taken to the college production of Little Shop. And I just have to tell you, my college had many strengths, but I don't think it was known for its theater department and you know when you see a shall we say community theater level production

of something it kind of there's no coming back from that even if you want to appreciate it's tough where do you get the plant you know you got to make that plant look cool that plant is literally singing that is fly trap um yeah it's uh it's also a movie that kind of has a little bit in common within the heights you know like i thought of down on Skid Row a couple of times while watching in the Heights. Cause there's a similar kind of energy to the story that it's telling. Um, okay. Number seven.

What do you got? Funny face directed by the King Stanley Donnan starring Fred Astaire, Audrey Hepburn and Kay Thompson, who also wrote Eloise. Just, yeah. Just shout that out. Yeah. Fred Astaire, Audrey Hepburn, and Kate Thompson just dancing around Paris, literally in Paris. And also this movie being about fashion

and the fashion world and having makeovers. Yes, yes, thank you. This was really, this is all of my interests in one thing. It is really cheerfully done. It obviously has that really famous Audrey Hepburn, like solo, like bohemian dance scene. That is sort of when I think of Audrey Hepburn, I think of her in like the full, the full black and the ponytail just doing weird poses. I guess this is my first dance break right now, but you know what I mean? And just a delight, a completely delightful 50s era movie starring some of the best people to ever do it. This is also my only Fred Astaire inclusion and my only Audrey Hepburn inclusion, which I do feel bad about, but I just, you know, My Fair Lady, really great.

Not for me. Not for me. but I just, you know, My Fair Lady, really great. And just- Not for me. It's, but what is it? What is it? Because it's really good. I've seen it a bunch of times. Songs are really good. Songs are still live in my head.

I don't know. It never clicked for me. It never, I liked Rex Harrison quite a bit. You know, of course I like Audrey Hepburn. I'm not a monster. Costumes are great. It's again, it's a little bit of that

like bloated 1960s Hollywood profundity thing that I just, that feels different from these Donnan movies. I mean, these Donnan movies, basically, you know, Singing in the Rain,

Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, So Is Fairweather, Funny Face Pajama Game, Indiscreet Damn damn yankees those all come in six years you know and they're all under two hours basically yeah and and they also they move and not just because he so often works with gene kelly and understands but yeah i guess there is like the dancing element to this which my fair lady they're they're more state it's stater yes that's true um i don't i just i've never been a huge fan of that one uh speaking not of state my uh number seven is hedwig and the angry inch which of course is the rock musical um from john cameron mitchell which is my only entry from the 2000s. This is a fascinating story about a genderqueer East German

rock singer. And it's one of the few movies that is purely performance oriented. Very few of the songs are in settings other than Hedwig on stage and singing. But in addition to it being a touching and fascinatingly defiant story and an independent movie very different from a lot of the other movies we're talking about here not necessarily funded by a major studio with a singular vision from from from john cameron mitchell um it's also a movie that integrates a lot of different filmmaking techniques there's a lot of animation in this movie there's a lot of unusual cinematography in this movie it looks different than a lot of the films that we're talking. It looks different than a lot of the films

that we're talking about here. That's not a reason alone to make it worthy. I think what makes it worthy ultimately is John Cameron Mitchell just being a house on fire throughout the movie with the performances that he's giving. But it's a fun movie. It's a fascinating movie. It's obviously the kind of story

that we're not seeing very much in musical theater, at least not on the big screen. It's also, I was thinking about John Cameron Mitchell and like, did he live up to the promise of what this movie presented? Which is tough, right? Because on the one hand, if you only made Hedwig and the Angry Inch

and you died the next day, you're a legend forever. But then I look at his films and I'm like, is this a Hollywood thing? Why is he not given more opportunities? Like, is he best known now as like the guy who showed up on Girls a couple of times? He made a few movies. He made Short Bus.

He made Rabbit Hole. He made a movie in 2017 called How to Talk to Girls at Parties that wasn't great. But I would have guessed he would have had a slightly different career. I don't know if you followed his career at all in the last 20 years. I'd forgotten about the Girls thing until you said it. Do you remember when he was on Girls? He just showed up on an art for Girls? God. Girls was... I mean mean we can never revisit that time no one should try but like what a time that

that was for for you guys thought the internet you think it's well now um yeah i i mean it does also seem like sometimes people just make their singular thing um and what makes something so special like hedwig is also what makes something so special, like Hedwig, is also what makes it so hard to replicate. Right. Yes. I think that's right.

You know? Yes. And especially in a system that doesn't like to take a lot of chances. That's exactly right. Singular achievement, Hedwig and the Angry Inch. If you haven't seen it,

check it out. Number six for you. Muppets Take Manhattan. Speaking of Frank Oz. I went back and forth on which Muppet to do. I've been thinking a lot about Great Muppet Caper because of Charles Grodin.

But this because, I mean, it's a show within a show because they're trying to mount a stage. This is where Kermit has amnesia? That's this one? He has new friends that are like yuppie frogs in the city. And then they have to knock him out of the amnesia to get the show on at the end. Isn't that what this one is? Like crazy.

I don't remember. I mean, there is definitely the sequence where Miss Piggy is like, no, we love each other. And they do the Muppet Babies. And then he's like, oh, right. We love each other and we got to make the show. So maybe they're yuppie friends. I mean, he's separated from them for a while. Right, right.

Yeah. I don't know if I remember the amnesia. I think he forgets about them. Yeah. Anyhow, sorry to interrupt you. But and he does go to Sardi's and has a great time at Sardi's. But they're like the theater world trappings of this one, as well as like the musical numbers and the,

the making fun of these types of movies while also making a delightful movie. And just the number of musical sequences, like when they're pitching the show, do you remember this? And it's, they have like a lot of famous people doing a lot of cameos and the all the muppets just go and like dance for every single person and it's just like all the muppets going back to back and forth which is both like a parody of these types of movies and also makes me laugh it's a great musical number every time it's really great this is a great one i probably would have gone with caper um yeah i

think i like the caper songs just a little bit more they're all great though the muppet movie the songs are great yeah muppet christmas carol the songs are great oh great the muppets rule um should we do a muppets episode sure didn't they get canceled though can't like canceled canceled no like but you know they're like or something no fuck that it's okay i don't acknowledge that um okay my number six this is my one big rule breaker but not really it counts it counts number six is nashville robert altman's classic of 1975 maybe it'll come up on the 1975 movie draft the thing i like about this movie among many things is that robert altman asked the cast to write their own songs for the film many of the figures

in the film are country singers it takes place at a time when the world of country music is is supporting essentially um a political party convention that is happening in in nashville it's all all over across this weekend. And we see a number of different people sing and perform the songs that they've written. Performances are beautiful. It's not a true musical insofar as people don't just burst into song while crossing the street. Most of the singing takes place on stage in performance venues. But the songs are touching.

And I love the kind of creation myth behind it. And it's just from a pure movie perspective, is one of the most interesting transformational movies that's ever been made. I think it really did change the way that movies would be considered in terms of like the ambient sound that you hear multiple conversations happening at the same time, the sense of the flow of real life set against a musical atmosphere which is usually so staged and prim and proper and colliding those two things i always thought was such a fascinating choice by all of them i'm not trying to taunt you i'm actually trying to ask this seriously but like how do you feel about putting nashville one of the great

movies at number six on any list. Is there any cognitive dissonance for you? And there is for me. This is a ranking within the context of movie musicals, and all lists are different. But do you get nervous about that? Because it's pretty funny that Nashville's only at six on your list. Well, I feel the same way that you feel about not putting The Wizard of Oz on, which is, which is like, of course this is ridiculous and completely constructed and fake, but also I wanted to give a chance to shout out a slightly different kind of a musical. If we were listing my favorite movies of the seventies,

Nashville might rank higher than number six. So of course this is perverse, but I feel okay about it. I'm glad if people haven't heard of Nashville, that's like fucking watch it, man. Check it out. Yes.

Banger. Okay. Number five. Grease. I mean, that's like fucking watch it man check it out yes banger okay number five grease i mean i had to i had to honor you know the the women of my generation who watched this movie 4 000 times once again not kid appropriate but definitely watched it like at age six. I remember my friend Trisha's house went over. She was like, you know about Grease? I was like, I don't know what Grease is. Watched it 4,000 times. We're poodle skirts for Halloween.

Terrible lessons for women. Pretty campy movie. Is it even good? I don't know. But it is like, I mean, obviously it is. The songs are great and the performances are like ridiculous, but in keeping with the high school tone, it's another high school movie that is slightly satirizing high school, though possibly not with as like sharp of a wit as

Bye Bye Birdie is. Definitely the first time I experienced John Travolta. So, you know thank you to that and it like an interesting this is 1978 so like a weird time in in movies and certainly a weird time in movie musicals and i think was just made for sleepovers and it just really worked out for us. Yeah. This movie comes from Robert Stigwood, who's a producer, who's a very important figure

in the history of movies. His movie prior to this was Saturday Night Fever. And he had a keen eye for grease and a keen eye for integrating pop music into movies and making those two things fit together. I told Eileen that you put this on your list and she said, thank God. Yeah. Because this is one of Eileen that you put this on your list and she said, thank God. Yeah. Because this is one of Eileen's favorites of all time. Just like.

Eileen and I have definitely watched this together when you were out of town. That's beautiful. And then we watched sex in the city. So just to give you a sense of what we were consuming. Do you, who do you relate to in Greece the most? Well,

you just the day that you grow up and you're like wait so at the end of greece sandy just completely renovates herself and gives up all of her principles to be like the bad girl and be accepted by like the quote bad crew and just like wears full on skin tight leather and then everyone does the hand jive and it's like happy times and like that is that's what the musical is that's upsetting that's not what it should be that's that's bad i was taught bad things okay and i internalized them so you're saying you're more of a rizzo then yeah sure i had no idea what she was singing about for the first like 20 years of my life that's the other thing when you realize oh she's pregnant

definitely took me at least 80 viewings before i was like oh now i understand but you know that's a rite of passage I like Greece it's pretty good it's fun has a has a few showstoppers like yeah of the most like stop what you're doing and watch this moment unfold um I still cannot tell if it's meant to be like an homage or parody of the time that it's portraying but you're right that it is similar in a lot of the movies we're picking that they're like movies about an older time um my number five is not about an older time it's about another world it's called the nightmare before christmas this is my one animated choice i vacillated on this i was like should i do like a beauty and the beast or an al Aladdin or one of those kind of classic 90s Disney movies that we all love

that are musicals, really. They are, the characters just burst into song in the middle of the telling of the story. The Nightmare Before Christmas was top of mind because I just listened to Danny Elfman on WTF. Danny Elfman, lead singer of Oingo Boingo, of course, one of the most legendary composers in films for the last 40

years or so. His signature collaboration has been with Tim Burton over the years. The Nightmare Before Christmas is produced by Burton, directed by Henry Selick, the legendary stop-motion animation filmmaker. And Elfman wrote all the songs and composed all the themes to this story, which is

about essentially like a Halloween world attempting to infest Christmas, take over Christmas. It's a ridiculous story. It's obviously a story for kids, but it's also wildly creative and beautiful to look at. And the songs are jamming. Eileen and I were jamming out to What's This Last Night, which is one of the best Jack Skellington songs on the playlist. I imagine this didn't appeal to you very much when you were a kid. Did you care about this one? No, I do think I saw it, but it just kind of didn't stay with me. I mean, I did watch all of those Disney movies that you referenced. I was just thinking I didn't

put any on my list because, as I said, I realized halfway through that movie musicals kind of were my animation. But I think I would do Beauty and movie musicals kind of were my animation but I think I would do Beauty and the Beast out of all of those I mean because it does also like Be Our Guest is the you know the candelabra is like dancing around it is sort of a set piece in that fun way um so I do also love the Lion King and I unlike Sean think the Lion King is a good but you were like hamlet i don't get it um but yeah it's you know the that animated movie run was very important for a lot of people pretty incredible uh okay what's your number four cabaret so this is my exception in in pretty much way, even though it's definitely a musical that involves a lot of dancing and is directed by Bob Fosse, who is perhaps one of the great choreographers and directors of movement, both human and camera, of all time. And the way that those two work together is what makes this transcendent but you know it

is also it is about a cabaret performer and so it's just Liza Minnelli like on stage in it's not quite a concert but again it's also like a little bit as you know a show within a show and is a very cynical view about a lot of things but also also about performing and being a star and an aspiration. But I think kind of visually what this does, certainly in terms of the choreography and, like a leg and a hip thrust, but I just have like very specific mental images of Liza Minnelli with a chair and her leg a certain way and the camera from up above and people's pelvises just going to and fro. And it reminds you about bodies and sex for sure. There's a lot of sex in this. But just how much movement matters in these types of musicals and also that there is like a new way to communicate that movement um also you know maybe this time she's she's judy

garland's daughter for a reason yeah i guess this is a fairly tilted list so far given all the vince and manelli lies and manelli judy garland we've done but hey we are who we are this isn't the last time we'll talk about Bob Fosse. I got another one coming up soon. He is the lord of the thrust. He loves to have his dancers thrusting on stage. My number four is the only sung through film. The style we mentioned, the operetta style film.

It's also the only foreign language film on this list. It's The Umbrellas of Cherbourg from Jacques Demy in 1964. Probably top five most beautiful movies ever made. on this list. It's The Umbrellas of Cherbourg from Jacques Demy in 1964. Probably top five most beautiful movies ever made. Probably one of the most influential movies ever made because of the depth and scope of its production design. Every single

image, wallpaper, furniture, cars, clothes, hair, makeup is a pastel or an explosive primary color or the color of fruit. It's amazing the way that Demi, and this is not post-production color correction like we have now. This is not CGI.

It is every person designed every piece of fiber in this movie so in addition to it starring Catherine Deneuve at the apex of her extraordinary beauty and it being you know a very sweet melodramatic tale about a young couple who are forced apart and have to figure out what their lives are when they're not together that is very like effective but that's not ultimately the the thrust of the movie um it's just a it's a bounty you know it's an amazing thing to look at an amazing thing to hear and feel um and i mentioned la la land earlier this is also probably the number one uh influence on la la land when you see that similar approach to to color and and set design and um it's not the last musical it's not the only musical that demi's not the only musical that Demi made,

but I think it's his best. You know, some people might pick some of the others. But again, another movie that if people have not seen, I think it's on the criterion channel right now. You won't regret it. Number three.

The sound of music. And am I betraying myself by putting it number three in a way? Yes. And in a way I'm, you know, acknowledging the multitude of experiences that one can have at the movies. Listen, I was shown this at a very young age. And it opened the world of movies to me and singing and dancing. And I wanted to be one of the Von Trapp children because, once again, didn't really understand

the real world consequences of this movie for a very long time, but also I was an only child. And I was like, oh, all of these kids running around and doesn't it look like fun? And this set pieces in this movie, I think were extraordinary. This is directed by Robert Wise and like almost entirely, well, much of it on location, but they are running through Salzburg and she is running around the mountains or the hills. I'm sorry. How dare I? And all of these, these fantastical things happening in real places was somehow so electrifying to, to my tiny mind. And it is like really, really sentimental. It's long.

It is the writers and Hammerstein thing where they just keep doing all of the songs. But I love all of the songs. So I even love it, Climb Every Mountain, which is just someone singing a ballad two hours in and you're like, we got to keep this moving. But like, to me, it's like church. You got to stand up for that one. So thank you to The Sound of Music and to Julie Andrews.

I will not say anything rude about The Sound of Music here on this podcast. My number three is The Wizard of Oz. I feel almost exactly the same about The Wizard of Oz as you feel about The Sound of Music. It is one of the greatest movies ever made. It is the movie that made me fall in love with movies. It is the movie that was on repeat in my household from the ages of zero to 10. It's magical. It's truly magical.

I don't, what else can you say? It is completely magical. What's your number two? West Side Story. Also directed by Robert Wise. So I didn't put this on my list hoping that you would. So I'm glad that you did. This is very similar, I think,

to a lot of the other movies that we're talking about where it's like, let's just keep trading some of these back and forth. But this no list is right without this film. For me, this is the greatest filming of choreography and the dancing. And you can, if you haven't seen West Side Story, you've probably encountered like a gif of the snapping, which I just started doing another dance break or you know of the jets or the sharks like doing their pirouettes in full air um it you know just like one shot that explains like the power of movie musicals and the way that they're able to to film the jerome robbins choreography and actually show it on the big screen like not everybody knows how to do that and it is you know also

the choreography it's like it's really it's ballet um they are it is more like pirouettes and jetés and some of the things that you don't necessarily associate with with musicals or you know that it is maybe like fancier than people want to see, but kind of brought that into the mainstream and made it so exciting and really serves the story and the wonderful music. Um, you know, all time Rita Moreno performance. I don't, I don't know what else to say about that. And just, it, it gets a little bit shaggy at the end. I can't say that the Natalie Wood performance is the best thing that I've ever seen on screen at all. Also, obviously Natalie Wood being cast to play

a Puerto Rican woman is something that we would examine. And I believe that the Steven Spielberg update is examining. So that's a good thing. But this spectacle and the set pieces, I think, are like the high standard. I agree with you. It is a weirdly flawed movie that transcends its flaws. You know, there are, there are some curiosities in it, but there is also the core text,

the songs and the choreography are unreal. So beautiful movie. My number two movie is also a Bob Fosse movie. It is the kind of the flip side of cabaret in many ways. It is also a little bit self-product for me to choose all that jazz. Um, if Chris Ryan were here, he'd be thrilled.

This is one of his favorite movies of all time. You better stop. You better change. You better stop. You better change. This is a, a-time self-analysis this is bob fossy doing memoir as musical it's a story about a hard charging hard drinking hard womanizing broadway film and film director who pushes himself too far and goes to the brink and then in a state of

physical disrepair has visions of his life before him it's a little bit of a ghost of christmas past thing a little bit of a if you pop too many pills this is what your mind will do and it incorporates the musical numbers really interestingly you know bob fossey had worked on classic musicals and musical movies over the years. He directed Sweet Charity. That was his first film. You may have seen some of this stuff portrayed in Fosse-Verdon, which is the show that was on in 2019. This is simply put one of the best movies to ever come out of Hollywood.

It is, of course, incredibly self-indulgent, but in a way that is worthy, I think. Like, I think it's the story that it's telling about this man, the way that this man doesn't appreciate and respect himself or the women around him who support him and keep him going every day. It's like, it's so fascinating to turn the camera on yourself that way and to exploit your own flaws so aggressively.

It doesn't necessarily excuse the way that Bob Fosse acted. It sounded like he acted like a real asshole sometimes. But there is a level of self-awareness, self-regard, and incredible vision colliding together along with all of the things that he

does in Cabaret, along with the way that he stages those numbers, along with the way that the songs are performed. That creates one of the only thing this is this could only be a movie this could only be in a movie it could only work in a movie so you know we were talking about justifying itself this is the ultimate justifying itself movie musical to me this is one where you did all that jazz and i i did cabaret and we're like cobbling it together and we're're still like, we're missing so many things before we reveal our number one, which we share,

which is really cute. And everyone can guess what it is. And we didn't plan that. No, but I think in our hearts we planned it, you know, but there are so many, I didn't even make a list of all the honorable mentions,

which feels stupid now, but I guess there are so many that I know I didn't include. And then so many more that like we'll forget you want you want to share any is there any the one movie that I cut that I had originally on here was Yankee Doodle Dandy which I just think is similarly like kind of sets the stage for some of that choreography that we've been talking about and you know Jimmy Cagney who heretofore had been considered like one of the great gangster actors does this amazing song and dance man performance I don't know anything else jump out at you you know my fair lady which we talked about an american in paris which is is

pretty impressive trying to think what else we don't have like annie on this because annie wasn't like a huge touchstone for me but personally as a kid but also like that movie gigantic, everyone watched. I mean like just a huge phenomenon and, and pretty great. And then we don't have rent on the list, which I know means a lot to a lot of people. I've just never really got on the rent train.

I think I was like a little too young and it didn't transfer for me, but I know that means a lot to a lot of people. I'm sure there are like a, what else am I forgetting? All the Judy Garland movies, except for the ones that we have. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned that you have a Fred Astaire film,

but all of the Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers movies, you know, Top Hat and Shall We Dance and all those films, we didn't mention any of those. I mean, there are some quirkier ones. We didn't mention Purple Rain, I guess. That's a pretty big one. That is just a concert-ish thing.

Yes, that's why. I probably would have put it on if it was not just that because that's a similar thing where when the concert footage is happening, when Prince is on stage, some of the most electrifying shit ever, but it doesn't totally fit the bill. Let's just do our number one.

Okay. What is it? Singing in the Rain. A perfect movie. Like an absolutely perfect movie. You can do what I did last night, which is a treat after watching all the things I need to do. I just fast forwarded through to all of the songs that I wanted to watch and just like felt really happy. It was like my lullaby before I went to bed.

But the nice thing about it is that also just the like the interstitial story and the chemistry between the actors is also great you can watch it as a delightful kind of like screwballish 50s movie and then it also just has some of the best i'm not some of us what am i talking about all of the best dance sequences of all time i was about to do gotta dance for you i did it i was nervous i like should i just like when we're back in the office, should I just get like that yellow blazer and the weird glasses and just be like, gotta dance with jazz hands like every time I see you? Will that go well?

You have to do that now that you've suggested you could do it. This is the first musical I ever saw in which I consciously knew I was going in to watch a musical. When you're a kid and you see Wizard of Oz or you see The Great Muppet Caper, no one's like, okay, let's sit down and watch a musical together. With Singing in the Rain, I remember this vividly. I was 11 years old. I went to Disneyland with my parents.

We were in one of the shops in Disneyland. You know when you get off of a ride at Disneyland and then you like exit into a shop? Yeah, yeah. So I don't remember what the... Disney's so evil. They're very smart. So I get off of one of these rides. I don't remember which one it is.

And in one of the shops, there is a classic movies section. And they were selling a VHS of Singing in the Rain there. I have no idea why I demanded that someone buy this for me, a film I had never seen that I only knew was a quote unquote classic Hollywood musical. But my mom bought it for me. Went back to the hotel room that night. We watched it. That's so cute. You watched it at Disneyland?

It was amazing. Oh, that's a nice story. Took my breath away. I didn't understand any of the satire or any of the Hollywood mythologizing slash demythologizing happening in the story. I was just like, Gene Kelly, Donald O'Connor, Debbie Reynolds. These people are superhuman. What they're able to do is magical.

I thought the movie was pretty funny as a kid. I think it's even funnier now. It's winking. Again, it's like show within a show. It's a satire. It is also made in the 50s, but set set in the twenties, you know, all the things we were talking about. Um, it's just a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant movie.

It's, um, it, it will, it will lift your spirits. If you are down. The Debbie Reynolds performance is so good. She is so young and trying to keep up with Gene Kelly and Donald O'Connor and you know, the behind the scenes stories are that it was quite hard and that Gene Kelly was exacting, which you would expect. But like she does. And I find that when she's on the screen,

she's like the only person that I can watch. And there is that like little bit of, am I doing it? Am I getting it right? This like confetti streamer is in my face, but I'm going to keep going aspect of it. That is, it's still like really earnest. She's trying so hard, but that you can, that you're like rooting for her just makes it so transcendent. I didn't, I don't think I saw this all at once. First, as you know, I was subjected to a lot of performing arts classes. And so I think that like in my like dance, like training journey, like I was shown good morning and shown

like Moses, let me be very clear. It was cannot do either of those things or anything close to it, but you know, sometimes they show you some tape. So like just for motivation. And I think those two sequences in particular, like are the what 10 best minutes of filmmaking that I've like, if I could only watch 10 minutes of movies ever again, it would probably be those two things. And I'd be really happy. But then it's really exciting when you go back and watch the rest of your movie and you're like, oh, this is a real movie holds together. Good for them. It absolutely does. That's what makes it number one for me. It is a great movie and it is a great series of musical performances and they make sense together. They fit together.

Great way to end it. Yeah. Singing in the Rain. Amanda, our lists are great. They are perfect actually, now that I think about it. There's never been a better list made on this show than the two lists we made here.

I'm proud of you. Any final thoughts on movie musicals? I just really like them. I'm going to watch some more of them. Also, a really nice thing is how many of these are available between Criterion and Turner Classic Movies on HBO Max. So if you are looking for some joy in your life, seek one out.

Absolutely. Thank you to you, Amanda. Thank you to our producers, Isaac Lee, filling in today and Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. Next week on The Big Picture, Amanda and I are going to try to build the perfect streaming service which um just all movie musicals please hope you tune in for that we'll see you then Thank you.