The Big Picture - Top 10 Stage-to-Screen Movies and ‘One Night in Miami’

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Inspired by Regina King's directorial debut 'One Night in Miami,' Amanda and Sean share their top 10 stage-to-screen adaptations: five musicals and five plays each (0:45). Then, Sean is joined by Kingsley Ben-Adir, one of the stars of 'One Night in Miami,' to talk about portraying Malcolm X and the actor's quick rise to fame (1:07:30). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Kingsley Ben-Adir Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about moving from stage to screen. Later in this show, I will be joined by Kingsley Ben-Adir, one of the stars of Regina King's adaptation of the play One Night in Miami, which you can watch on Amazon Prime right now. But first, Amanda and I will talk about some exciting new movies announced this week. And inspired by One Night in Miami, we our top 10 stage-to-screen adaptations.

We're talking musicals and plays. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. Amanda, it's been a few days since we last spoke about the world of movies. And in that time, a bunch of new movies have been announced. Now, in the pandemic, I will say I probably am more excited about the announcement of new movies than I am even to watch new movies. And I don't know what that says about me. Maybe that's just a testament to the fact that I know I'm not getting into a theater anytime soon, but the anticipation that a new movie announcement can build inside of me is somehow stronger and bigger. Does that make me sound crazy? No, I think that makes sense. I mean, nothing's gone wrong yet. It's all promise and hope and anticipation and big ideas or terrible ideas that we get to judge without really hurting anyone's feelings. Even if you're like, this seems like a terrible idea,

you're not judging anyone's actual work. I do also think you're underestimating how excited you got about film announcements before the pandemic. I know it's very hard to remember that time, but you would just be really psyched about a mention of anything. Just love movie news. Just one of those guys, show me some news about a mention of anything. Just love movie news. You know, just one of those guys. Show me some news about a movie.

I'm bound to click on it. I'd like to read the details. I'd like to have a fast-formed opinion. Let's do some fast-formed opinions. We've got a few movies here that I think are going to be notable to this podcast, assuming we're all alive in the next 12 months. First one, I have subtitled this announcement, Aaron, you've got some explaining to do.

That's as close as I will ever get to Desi Arnaz's voice because it has been announced that Aaron Sorkin is making a Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz biopic starring Nicole Kidman and Javier Bardem. I guess this is amazing, but also it seems kind of terrible as ideas go. What was your reaction to this news? My first reaction is I'm just glad that Nicole Kidman gets to have a little bit of fun. Just the tiniest bit of fun.

Did you ever happen to catch The Prom, which was the Ryan Murphy film version of a Broadway musical? Speaking of things we'll be discussing later on this podcast. I sure did. And I was not a fan. Nor was I. The only thing that I could say is like when they let Nicole Kidman do something, which was very rare in this, she seemed to be having the time of her life. And she was like, I don't have to have a breakdown like on a courtroom stand and talk about like really grim things while being filmed for once and I'm flying free.

And so, you know, I assume this is, I think this project in one form or another, I think Aaron Sorkin has been trying to do this for a while. Um, if you Google it, there are kind of like mentions of this project bopping around. And I think it's about their marriage and working relationship. Presumably there were ups and downs in it because it's a marriage. So I, you know, I don't think it'll all be sunshine and roses for her, but at least she'll get to do comedy. Yeah, I think that's right. On the one hand, we have seen her do comedy

a few times in the past, perhaps most notoriously in Bewitched, your icon Nora Ephron's kind of interesting, but kind of bungled, but kind of notable movie. What were you going to say? Not everything works in life. Not everything works, that's right. You know, just not everything works.

I'll say, you know, next week, we're going to talk about WandaVision. And I think the Bewitched conversation and the idea of using Bewitched as a satirical vehicle into another story is new again. So, you know, as usual, Nora Ephron ahead of the curve there. Nevertheless, Nicole Kidman, is she a Nora Ephron ahead of the curve there. Nevertheless,

Nicole Kidman, is she a gifted comic actress? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't have to be for this. Obviously, Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, their story as showbiz pioneers is not just a comic story. There's a lot of high drama that took place there. The other thing I thought of when I read this news was that one of Aaron Sorkin's only non-adapted works to screen is something called the Farnsworth Invention, which is about essentially the creation of the TV by Philo Farnsworth. And we know that the origins of television and the origins of entertainment are quite important to Aaron Sorkin and to the kinds of stories he tells. He's often telling stories about people at the forefront of a new life-changing kind of technology or culture. We've seen it with Steve Jobs.

We've seen it with Moneyball. We've seen it with the social network. He loves to find pioneers and tell their stories. And there's no doubt that Desi and Lucy were major pioneers in TV. So, you know, of course we're going to watch it and devote six to 12 episodes about this on our show. And I'm sure it'll be good slash not good.

It feels rude that we really didn't talk about Javier Bardem at all. I just want to say, Javier Bardem, I'm a huge fan of you. And I look forward to any project that you're in. Good point. He doesn't look like Desi Arnaz to me um but i guess that doesn't matter i guess nicole kidman doesn't look like lucille ball either so i imagine there's going to be some prosthetics and some hair dye and some all kinds of makeup going on here right yeah it's a movie okay thank you for your insights as always i don't know what are you gonna say yeah

there's gonna be a costume department, Sean. They'll figure it out. Speaking of costumes and prosthetics, that leads us very elegantly to our next film, which is Darren Aronofsky's The Whale. For the purposes of this podcast, I'm going to read to you the log line for the forthcoming film, The Whale. The Whale is the story of a reclusive English teacher suffering from severe obesity who attempts to reconnect with his estranged teenage daughter for one last chance at redemption. This is based on the acclaimed play by Samuel D. Hunter. So severe obesity in the logline here has been clarified to be 600 pounds. And the person who will be portraying what I presume is the titular whale is Brendan Fraser. Brendan Fraser,

great actor, a figure of some controversy over the years in fact your husband wrote a brilliant profile of Brendan Fraser a few years ago and there has been a kind of quiet brandonissance going on the last couple years he appeared on that FX series Trust he's been in some some films of late this feels a little bit different than that putting him in the center of a big a24 produced indie movie by notorious auteur Darren Aronofsky. Or will you be checking out The Whale? I mean, I'm friends with you and I do this podcast. So yes, I will say I learned about The Whale.

And then I learned about Darren Aronofsky's, the Andrew Yang campaign video directed by Darren Aronofsky within the span of like 15 minutes yesterday also late at night because I'm off social media again so I'm just getting updated when people are just like here's some unusual stuff that's happening um so it's just interesting choices by everybody and we'll see are you in the Yang gang? I just watched the video. He wants to save the Knicks. So are you in the Yang gang? I haven't watched that video. I only watch films.

There's a joke about the Knicks. Why is there always a joke about the Knicks? We just went through this with Seoul. Why does it have to be this way? I think because they're bad. Okay. They've been mediocre this year, actually. I don't know if you know that.

I do. I have actually a lot of thoughts about the NBA season and some of the jersey choices for a different podcast. Okay. Well, maybe we'll launch our NBA pod soon. Okay. On the Ringer Podcast Network, we just launched Ringer University with Kevin O'Connor, Jonathan Charks, and J. Kyle Mann. So if you were going to have an NBA pod, what would it be called? Would it be called like, like, like NBA post-grad? I think it would be called no answer. And it would be all of the texts that I send to Chris Ryan about the NBA and that he does not answer or he actually does. He's really nice about it. He's just like, ha ha. Good point. I love you, Chris.

That sounds right. Okay. Well, uh, speaking of a 24,24 um the movie of my dreams was also announced this wasn't this week this was last week but i'm just gonna i need you to hear me say the words out loud about this movie a movie called men was announced it's going to be written and directed by alex garland and it's going to star jesse buckley this movie is going to be about a woman who goes on a solo vacation to the english countryside after the death of her ex-husband let's go let's let's go with men um alex you're gonna say let's vacation to the English countryside after the death of her ex-husband. Let's go. Let's go with men. I thought you were going to say,

let's go to the English countryside, which like, wouldn't that be lovely? I'm inviting Jesse Buckley to go with me. Okay, fair enough. I think that would be nice. We could take a car ride, much like the one in I'm Thinking of Ending Things, in which we discuss Pauline Kael and the great works of art.

How does that sound? Okay, that's your journey and good luck. Okay. things in which we discuss Pauline Kael and the great works of art. How does that sound? Okay. That's your journey and good luck. Okay. A couple more. I'm proud to announce that I have the power to incept movies. A few months ago on this podcast during a mailbag, we were asked, I think, for what literary adaptation we most would want to see on the big screen? What was your answer? I forget. Was it the Secret History? I don't remember, but I think it was the Secret History. Yes.

So you wanted Donna Tartt's The Secret History. I said I had long wanted White Noise by Don DeLillo to be adapted, while understanding that White Noise is more or less unadaptable. And lo and behold, it was announced, I guess inadvertently, because this appeared in a production weekly newsletter that identified that a movie was going into production as opposed to a formal announcement by a studio. But that Noel Baumbach is, in fact, adapting Don DeLillo's novel White Noise, and the film is going to star Adam Driver. And returning to the big screen for the first time in six years, Greta Gerwig. How are you feeling? Number one, release the corrections pilot.

Just do it, you cowards. Let us see it. It's been a long year. It's going to be another long year. Let me just see the corrections pilot. And also, you know, I bring that up because that is another book to movie, or in this case, TV show adaptation by Noah Baumbach of something that seemed possibly unfilmable. And in this case, HBO deemed that the corrections was quote,

unfilmable or that it wasn't working, but no one believes them again, released the pilot. And otherwise I'm, I love Adam driver. I love Greta Gerwig. I love Noah Baumbach. It's good when people take chances. Okay. So that will be amazing or not, but I hope it's amazing. And then the last thing is we just got a little bit of information

about Joel Cohen's The Tragedy of Macbeth, which is starring Denzel Washington and Frances McDormand. And this movie was shot in black and white, also to be released by A24. What a time for them announcing movies that are hopefully going to be coming out at some point in the next 24 months.

This movie is a no-brainer. We're obviously fired up about it. 100%. So there's a lot to look forward to. In the immediate future, we have One Night in Miami, which you and I discussed briefly in the aftermath of its premiere

at the Toronto International Film Festival last fall. It finally arrives on Amazon Prime. This is an interesting piece of work. We cited that this is the directorial debut by Regina King, the Academy Award winning actress, really one of the great actresses of our time. It's written by Kemp Powers, who we talked about just a bit on the Soul episode because he was the co-director of that movie and also contributed to the screenplay. Kemp was a journalist and is now clearly a force in the world of movies. And the movie portrays a long night

amongst four friends in 1964 after a heavyweight fight. And those four friends are Malcolm X. Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, and Sam Cooke. So before we get into the details of the story and whether we thought the movie worked or not, what'd you think? I enjoyed it. I will say I've seen it twice now.

It works for me more the first time than the second time. We have framed the latter part of this conversation as about plays and musicals that are turned into films. And that is purposeful because this is a play that's turned into a film. And sometimes that really works for it. And then sometimes I do feel a little bit the limitations of the medium, which is not to say that it's not an enjoyable experience, but it's interesting to talk about how you adapt something like this, something that is part thought experiment and part biopic and it really

is both of those things yeah i think it's it's complicated right because part of the impetus for the general conversation around this was can you make a stage play into a compelling piece of cinema and i think under the under the restrictions basically that you have here regina king has done something interesting because really what's at the center of this movie is super performance focused super ideologically focused what are what is the what is at the center of the conversation that these four men would have and we should say this is an imagined conversation amongst these four men and how much can they effectively interpret the characters that they're playing and the the characters that they're playing.

And the four people that they're playing are like some of the most iconic figures we have in the 20th century, probably in American history. And I guess we should just go person by person here. And I would also point out, in addition to being just kind of titanic historical figures, they're all people who you are very familiar with on the screen. You know, it's like there are some historical figures where you would imagine what they look like or like how they speak or kind of what their charisma and performance is like. And these are people who were like public figures. We have a record of all of them that inevitably you're going to be comparing

these performances to. Yeah. So let's start there with Kingsley Ben-Adir. I spoke to him on this show and I asked him about this actually, because of course there is this, I don't know, this undeniable rock in the center of his performance, which is Denzel Washington's work as Malcolm X in Spike Lee's film. That's one of the really more celebrated and remembered movie performances of the last 35 years. And so you can't really get around that. And Denzel's performance is famously impassioned and intense and locked in. And we see Malcolm X as that public figure that you're talking about, speechifying a lot. We see him evolving over Malcolm X as that public figure that you're talking about speechifying a lot we see him kind of evolving over time that's a movie

that takes place over the course of decades and this is one night and Benadir is much more internal in this and much more feels he's at this critical moment of his life where he is on the verge of

leaving the nation of Islam and he is thinking about the next chapter of his his i guess his spiritual life and so he seems a bit torn and sort of internally agonized and yet is also trying to channel that that natural charisma and that ability to kind of compel people to see his point of view as he gets engaged in these friendly debates that turn quite intense over the course of the night particularly with sam cook what do you think of um of benedir it is really hard to go after denzel washington uh in the role of malcolm x again it's just two hugely hugely uh

like iconic and like well-known performances, like both the actual person and the performance, you know, I, the, the way the character is written is that he's at a remove from the other three, like ideologically. And so that informs a little bit of the, the demeanor, I think, you know, he's kind of searching within the room as well as searching within his life and I you know I think also it you wouldn't want to do you don't ever want to do an impression of a historical figure and you also like don't want to do an impression of Denzel so to to find a different note um I like I think is very smart and and like works for the most part it certainly is like separate as a performance and also does help kind of delineate some of the ideas that are developed as the as the film goes

on yeah he's kind of the the instigator the activating agent for i think a lot of the story because you know the other characters and we should talk about them too eli gory for example is playing muhammad ali and it's Ali at this, really at the Cassius Clay phase of his life before he publicly announces his conversion to Islam and before he becomes a significantly more socially conscious and activist professional athlete. And you can see that he's also in the midst of,

he's kind of on the verge of this public transformation from you know this sort of beautiful powerful elegant fighter into something that you know standing for something even bigger than that and he has this relationship with malcolm x but eli gory i think has the hardest task while malcolm x is there is already an iconic portrayal of him on screen, there's already the Muhammad Ali movie, but Muhammad Ali himself was a movie star. He starred in a movie about himself called The Greatest. He is probably the most captured person, the most understood person in the public consciousness out of these four guys. We see him over and over again.

There's tons of documentaries. There's tons of footage of him. His story has been told a million times. And he's so public. I mean, you can hear his cadence. You can hear like, you know, the interviews and the kind of self-presentation and mythology are kind of like just ingrained in the public consciousness. So it's hard. You know, I don't think he's doing an impression, but when he is doing some of the i'm so pretty stuff you can't not think of uh of all of the interviews and clips that you have seen yeah and so then i think that unfortunately for him and i don't know if anybody could have gotten around this it feels the most like impersonation impression than like embodiment and i wouldn't say that um ali in this film

is he's probably the least psychologically examined, I would say, of the four of them. He feels like the youngest guy. I don't know if that's actually right. If he was the youngest guy out of the four of them, I think he was. And I think Aldous Hodge as Jim Brown, even though that's a much less showy role, Jim Brown, what Jim Brown stands for as a professional athlete in contrast to Ali and what kind of figure he is and who he became and lot of ways to cool him down and to talk him up and to talk some sense into him without necessarily defying him the way that Malcolm X does throughout the film. And the last time I saw Aldous Hodge,

he was in the invisible man. Yeah. Every time I see him, I'm like, this guy's really, really good. He deserves more. He's had a couple of big roles over the years,

but very rarely in something like this um what did you think of him i was very struck by him in in this movie and and agree with you every time i see him there's there's a presence um and in and in this movie he is kind of on the internal quadrant of the four you know you could like make a matrix of the four individuals and chaotic good chaotic evil yeah you know and like you know internal external like economic you know versus like social like and and their alliance has changed throughout the the movie and the play which is like you know what i think is exciting about it and it's also what is very like theater play about it um but so i I do think like the guys who are internal and don't have to reckon with like

the actual impression stuff as much as, you know, if you're playing Muhammad Ali or if you're playing Sam Cooke, which we'll get to you, there is a there is a record. People know a lot what those people sound like. So it's a bit easier to be internal. And I think that helps. But I thought it was great. Yeah. So the way that this race has been organized, I think I have this right. And if I have it wrong, I apologize. But I believe that Kingsley Ben-Adir will be running in best actor. And the other three performers will be running in best supporting actor for the Oscars and perhaps for the Golden Globes. And I, you know, I think in terms of screen time and presence and who

deserves to be the quote-unquote lead, I think the reason they're doing that is because Kingsley Ben-Adir is most likely to be nominated in Best Actor, and that's why they've organized it this way. But the actor who is most likely to be nominated in Best Supporting Actor is Leslie Odom Jr., who plays Sam Cooke. Leslie Odom Jr., of course, from

Hamilton, among other things. This is really hard. I am a huge Sam Cooke fan. And so, as most good thinking humans are. I just made a face like, who isn't? Like, yes, 100%. One of the great singers of the modern recorded era. Yes, and I don't,

I certainly don't mean to pretend as if that's an interesting opinion because it's not. Um, but I love Sam Cooke just as many other people love Sam Cooke. I have a very clear vision of Sam Cooke as a, as a musician in my mind, but not as a man. Um, I,

I've, I've certainly read about his life and obviously he, he died in the year 1964, um, tragically. And so there is that freeisson in the story here. But he is, in some ways, kind of the, he's on the defensive throughout this film

because Malcolm X is kind of challenging him throughout to make sense of his, the way that he's living his life and the way that he's pursuing his art and making money and maybe making change or not making change in the way that he sees fit. So I guess to start, what did you think of Leslie Odom's portrait of Sam Cooke? I always think it's brave when people are willing to sing in these situations. Because as we just discussed, and as everyone agrees, Sam Cooke, just one of the great voices and everyone, you know, you,

it's another thing you can hear it in your mind. You've, you've heard it before. So I, I commend anyone who shows up and is like, sure, I'll try. And he, he's a wonderful singer, you know, also a professional singer. And it's like, it's better in terms of impression is unfair, but people doing Sam Cooke, then I think most anyone would achieve. I, you know, it's not Sam Cooke. And I think in terms of the performance and really the sparring with the Malcolm X character. He's great. And that to me, that kind of center argument about an hour in, I would say maybe a little bit later

and the very big idea is when the movie does come alive. Yeah, and the Cook character is at an interesting stage of his life in 1964. By this point, he's in his early 30s and he's already been a gospel star. He's already been a member of a group. He's already come up through the American South and forged a career for himself and is now at a place where he is a nationally known, essentially pop icon who's had

a lot of success at this stage. And so the position that it puts him in relative to the other figures in the story is fascinating. And the Malcolm X character, of course, interrogates throughout the film, really, how he's what he's doing with all this power, with all this wealth, with all this opportunity, with all this exposure to, you know, all of America, but really white America. And what message he's sending with the music that he makes and with what he says when he's in public. And of course, that's a very relevant conversation. Right now. As people. As anybody who makes anything. That goes out into the world knows.

That's a question you have to ask yourself. What is the ultimate purpose of this? Is it helping? Is it selfish? Are we able to make money. And also make good change at the same time. I think, you know,

the movie is very direct and, and plain spoken in a way that I find it hard to believe these men actually were in the conversation. I think there's a lot of literalization of a lot of understood, but rarely debated ideas here. But I, I mean, I,

I, and I asked Kingsley Benadier, like where he falls on this in this question ultimately like what should you do if you're in this position and even he was like I don't totally know you

know like it's there's not there's no one definitive answer but I thought the film like interestingly toggled with what it means to be militant in your beliefs what it means

to be moderate in your beliefs and whether or not you can have your cake and eat it too. What did you think about the question at the center of the movie? Yeah, I agree with you. And I think it's most engaging when they're really arguing about it and when they're showing the different sides. And I'm a massive Sam Cooke fan, but I did not know everything about his business structure and owning his masters and investing in other black artists and everything that he explains. So on the one hand, that's interesting and they're showing different sides of it and I'm learning something. On the other hand, it is interesting

because as someone who doesn't know everything, I'm going to take it as fact. And you do have to remember also that you're dealing with real figures and like a real night, an event, they were all four together, but we don't know that this is what they said. And we don't know that these were the arguments that were made. And I want to point people to what I thought

was a good piece in Slate by Jack Hamilton that was about how Sam Cook is portrayed in this movie. And it's like, he gets a little shortchanged in terms of the way that he relates to activism and to his music and even the way that they use blowing in the wind, which was by all accounts, very influential to him in writing. A change is going to come, which I want to talk about in a second. But it's like, it's not because Malcolm X just like carried blowing in the wind around and just like played him a recording of it.

He was on his own journey and was like thinking about things in different ways. So it's, you know, it's a double-edged sword there. I, can we talk about how this movie ends? Of course. It's a double-edged sword there. Can we talk about how this movie ends? Of course. Well, if you don't want to hear it, just fast forward about 90 seconds, I would say, if you don't want to hear how the film ends.

Although this is not necessarily a plot-centric movie. Well, it'll probably be more than 90 seconds. So, you know, like fast forward. And also, like, I don't know if this can be a spoiler, though I will say, to the extent that it can be a spoiler, I spoiled this movie for myself. And I don't I don't really think that means anything. But you and I both both watched this as a part of the Toronto Film Festival. But we were at home and it was sort of like one of the first Iumblings of the um the conflict between Malcolm X and Sam

Cook start I think they're still on the roof they haven't gotten really into the heart of the argument but I just kind of like without thinking idly picked up my phone and googled a change is going to come release date and because I was just like you know again not super educated about all of the particulars of Sam Cook's life but a, but a huge fan of Sam Cooke. And I do know A Change is Going to Come, which is one of the most significant pieces of art and protest art, like, of the 20th century. And so A Change is Going to Come was, like, essentially recorded in January of 1964 and performed for the first time within a few days of when this movie is supposed to be set. It was performed on the Today Show, which you can see at the end of this film in February of 1964. So I was like, oh, so this will end by him like writing and performing A

Change Is Gonna Come. And that's like not, of course it does because it's a movie and because it's Sam Cooke. And because again, a change is going to come. It's like a tremendous accomplishment and also kind of not, this is complicated, but in a ways it's like an easy solution to the complicated issues that they're discussing in this film because it is a piece of art and also like a protest anthem and it was um ultimately released as a single after his death and extraordinarily like commercially successful as well so everything kind of like aligns and we all know that that's not true for everyone all of the time um so i don't even remember what I was saying about this. I, oh, I do.

I, is that I found these arguments more intellectually engaging in the complication. And I was moved by the end because I love a change is going to come, but it does feel like the movie ending, um, as opposed to the intellectual ending, even though it's also true history. So I don't really know what to say about that. I mean, okay. So what's profound here? And the reason that Ken Powers obviously has drawn all of these circumstances together is in February of 1964, we are within the next year, Malcolm X will no longer be alive. Sam Cooke will no longer be alive. Jim Brown will be about

a year or so out from abruptly retiring from the NFL after nine seasons while being clearly the best player in the NFL and maybe the best player who's ever played football. And Muhammad Ali basically goes on to become the most important

sports figure probably of the next two decades. So, and also this character, this character is still going as Cassius Clay. So he also, you know, becomes Muhammad Ali.

He let the transition that he is contemplating and on the brink of in this movie, like comes to fruition. Yes. This, this night is the night that he becomes the world heavyweight champion that he beats Sonny Liston that is portrayed. And then that triggers all of these issues.

I, there clearly is some fudging of the facts with when it changes going to come came out. I thought it came out like a month before this movie is actually portraying when it came out or something like that. I, I, again, and this is also one of these things where it's like your, it's Wikipedia of record releases from like 50 years ago,

but as best I can understand it, like came on the album and he performed it. And then it was released as a single after his death. But he did only perform it once in his life. Got it. I mean, ultimately, I feel about this the same way I feel about most true-to-life

films, which is like, it's okay to change some of the details. I don't really, it doesn't bother me if the performances and the themes are powerful and meaningful. And I think in this case, they are, I think that a movie like this has natural constraints,

which is that, you know, it's, it's, it's confined, it's, it's confined to a fairly modest setting. It's confined to a certain kind of,

it has limitations cinematically. And I, I think Regina King does a lot with what she has, but it can only be so much there can only be you know and frankly at a different time in history in Hollywood a movie like this might have 75 million dollars and there

might be an extraordinary fight sequence in which we see Ali and Liston going toe to toe for five minutes at the beginning of the film that is like bigger than what we get in this movie maybe we see a slightly different picture of how Sam cook wrote this song and what his career was like at that time but for for what this is i think it's very very effective and definitely worth watching i would agree with that and and to some extent i i don't know what a 75 million dollar budget

would do because this is like it's really it is a it is a play and it's a play that's turned pretty well into a film but at the end of the day it's about four guys in a room having like a intellectual philosophical political economic like argument I guess like discussion and so you you're going to film that it and they're going to be in a room or they're not going to be in a room so I like it's it there are some in some ways I felt like the limitations when they did do some of the biopic stuff because it like reminds me, you know, there's a scene kind of three-fourths of the way when the Malcolm X character is recalling seeing Sam Cooke play in Boston. And they flash back to the concert. And then Leslie Odom Jr. is on stage as Sam Cooke. And you're kind of getting like a Sam Cooke performance in the middle of what is otherwise, you know, this play. And that's really fun because like I'm a movie person who has been trained to go to a biopic

and like watch people sing a song and be like, oh my God, they're doing it. They're singing the song. And it's, you know, and it like, and it hits that kind of dope receptor, but then it tears you kind of towards biopic land when I think your headspace should really be like, this is a play. This is a thought exercise. I think that's smart. I think that's insightful. I think there is like a distinction here that I'd like to draw that we can probably use this as an opportunity to share our list because um we just what we decided to do is we were thinking a lot about stage to screen just over the course of the last 12 months because this has been fairly common for two reasons one

obviously plays and musicals are consistently being adapted into movies that's been happening since the dawn of movies but 2020 in particular was a big year for that. You mentioned The Prom, which came out on Netflix in December, which I did not think was very successful. There was, of course, David Byrne's American Utopia, which was an actual filmed performance or maybe a number of performances by Spike Lee of that David Byrne show, which is phenomenal. We talked about Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, which is a film that not just thematically, but also structurally has a lot in common with One Night in Miami. And then Hamilton, of course, which is probably the musical sensation of the 21st century. And you can find that on Disney Plus right now. So this stuff's happening a lot. And part of it is because of the pandemic. And these are easy things to deliver to

audiences if they've already been filmed. But part of it is because plays and musicals to a lesser extent but still true are manageable from a budget perspective in a way that many other mid-tier movies are not. You may have noticed that the musical is still pretty active in the Hollywood experience in a way that the erotic thriller

is not. And that being said, I don't have a ton of movies from the 2000s on either of my lists, but I thought what we would do is we would essentially split these, that you would choose five plays, I would choose five plays that have been converted to movies, you would choose five musicals, and I would choose five musicals. Is this a definitive, the greatest musicals of all time list? Not exactly, though in some cases I think that's true. The lists are more obvious, I think, than we usually do while also having some quirks.

The thing is, it's been happening a lot this year, but also this has happened all the time throughout all movies. Like in every era, people are just like, let's film that great play because it has great dialogue and then we'll, you know, and it's a good idea and then we'll add some more film bells and whistles to it it's very common a lot to choose from well let's start with plays because what i was going to say relative to the point you were making about one night miami is i tried to choose films that that that became filmic or you know plays that became filmic when

they when they were captured here that there was a reason in a way to kind of put them on screen even though i i am a sucker for two people sit in a room and talk at each other like i do love movies like that i wanted to make selections that almost justified the conversion does that make sense it does we both like outsmarted ourselves on this because i like this is this is just classic sean and amanda because i am the queen of like i a play is a play and a movie is a movie you gotta you know you gotta adapt i believe in the word adapt um but i picked like at least two really classic people in a room just you know yelling at each other type experiences like i guess to show my range we're completely on the opposite page here where you have ranked your picks and I have

just done them in chronological order. So how do you want to start? Oh, we can do them in chronological order. I just thought yours were ranked when I first looked. It changed also. So then I thought you were like really spending a lot of time on the ranking. And I was like, oh my God, now I got to rank mine. Just rooting around in the outline at midnight you know just my usual way okay I we could do do you want to do chronological that's fine with me yeah sure okay um well I thought we we sort of loosely agreed to one Shakespeare adaptation because you could probably just overload these with Shakespearean adaptations the adaptation I'm going to recommend that is on my list is one of the best ever. It's

Laurence Olivier's Henry V from 1944, which I think actually justifies itself, like I said, by being this beautiful technicolor cinema scope extravaganza you know very colorful and and wide scale kind of film especially for 1944 um but also with a kind of production design that if you like wes anderson movies you might like this movie it has that kind of costuming and that kind of framing and it also features one of the great uh saint crispin, performances of all time. Olivier's version of it is unbelievable. I was going to say, it's just like Olivier doing St. Crispin for the historical record.

We're all lucky to be able to see it. It's really, really good. That's just a really good movie, and if you haven't seen it, I think you would enjoy it. Henry V is one of my favorites. There have been a lot of Shakespearean adaptations I like. I like the reinterpretations. I like the modern comedies. We talked about them over the years here.

But that's my Shakespeare. So what's your Shakespeare? Should I do my Shakespeare? Yeah. It will surprise no one to learn that my Shakespeare is Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. Great movie. Yes! Great movie.

Adaptation. While also using every single bit of the dialogue, they do the Shakespeare while just snazzing it up in other ways, can't express to you how formative this was in 1996 to Amanda Dobbins and her entire generation. One of the great Leonardo DiCaprio performances, in my mind, a great Claire Danes performance. I can never look at a fish tank the same way again. Uh, and, but you know, it's, it, it uses place. It uses staging. It is like a very, very visually stimulating while also, um, you know, giving some teens their Shakespeare. I love it. I think it's great. Great Leguizamo performance. Yeah, great soundtrack. Great soundtrack. Great Harold Perrineau performance.

Mm-hmm. Dash Mihook. Just a great... Sure. Paul Rudd. Oh, yeah, that's right. Pete Postulate. Mm-hmm.

Who else? Who am I forgetting? Just a bang-up collection of humans in this. Diane Venora, is she in this? I don't know. Now you're just like brian dennehy i'm not even looking i'm just going off the dome that's right that's right vondie curtis hall right wow i'm just in the zone right now i like this movie a lot i've seen it a

lot of times good pick okay my next pick is a film that came out one year after olivier's henry the fifth and is basically the polar opposite it It is Brief Encounter, directed by the legendary David Lean, written by Noel Coward, based on Noel Coward's one-act play, possibly the most romantic movie ever made. This movie, I think, quote-unquote, justifies itself as a movie because much of it is set

at a train station between this will-there-won't-they couple who sort of fall in love and have a somewhat illicit affair. And the setting of the train station and the train coming in is both a wonderful sexual metaphor. It's also a wonderful metaphor for departure and for loss. And it's beautiful. This is the same person who made Lawrence of Olivier.

So you know David Lee knows how to stage a sequence in addition to just featuring amazing performances. So I can't imagine seeing Brief Encounter as a one-act play in like 1938. Seems like it would, seems like one, it would be very short. Two, it also seems like it would be kind of slight and really sad.

So I, like, I don't even know what the proposition is like you you gotta go see this but on film it's so effective it's also one of my wife's favorite movies so we've watched it many times in my house that's a good pick there are a lot of like classic films wait did you take you took the first page off of yours front page no i took it off front page i'm sorry you took front page off because and obviously then front page is remade as like his girl friday there's like you know bobby fyi casablanca was originally a play it was never staged which is why it's not on my list but i just want you to know you're you're not turning your video on but i'm looking at you buddy um and then i guess i'll do my other um classic which is a it's a part I picked two movies I picked two Catherine Hepburn performances one of them is the Philadelphia story which was

originally a play starring Catherine Hepburn and this was kind of in her um box office poison phase after bringing up baby and then Philadelphia story play and movie is what turns it around for my queen, Catherine Hepburn. And then the other film, she's literally playing a queen and it is the lion and winter, which is just one of my favorite films of all time. It is, um, screenplay and play by James Goldman brother of, and it's about line and winter. In addition to Catherine Hepburn stars, Peter O'Toole and Kathy and Anthony Hopkins and Timothy Dalton. And they're playing Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine in 1183. And it's, I realized because I watched it in the last couple weeks.

It's a Christmas movie because they all gather for Christmas. Yeah, it's like a family all gathering for Christmas and then just yelling at each other about really who's going to be literally who's going to come King, but you know what they owe to each other as fathers and sons and brothers and mothers and, um, a very classic people screaming in different rooms. And it's delightful. It's a great pick.

My next pick is a movie I haven't seen in a while, but that I felt like is worth recommending to people. It's called Sleuth. It is an adaptation of a famed stage play, of course, starring Michael Caine and Laurence Olivier. And it's written by Anthony Schaefer based on his hit play. And it's the last movie directed by Joseph L. Mankiewicz of All About Eve and many other great films, including one of the characters in the film, Mank. And it's a really cool kind of house of cards whodunit movie where you've got two brilliant people saying brilliant things to each other for two and a half hours almost. It's a very long film. It's got extraordinary dialogue. It's hours almost. It's a very long film. It's got extraordinary dialogue. It's very clever. It's very entertaining. It's a cat and mouse movie and it features two of

the best to ever do it. So check out Sleuth if you haven't. Have you seen Sleuth? I have, but not in a really long time. And as you were describing it, I was like, why haven't I seen this movie recently? It's cool. It's weird because like 10 years later Michael Caine made another movie called Death Trap with Sidney Lumet and Christopher Reeve that is very similar but he takes on the Olivier part and so it's a little bit confusing about which is sleuth and which is actually sleuth was remade

in 2007 with Jude Law I can't recall who his counterpart was in the movie but I always thought that was really strange because Sleuth is one of those like, it's perfect. You don't have to fuck with this. We don't have to do this again. Maybe Kenneth Branagh? Did he do that? That sounds like something he would do.

That sounds right. That sounds right. Anyhow, that's Sleuth. What's next? I am jumping around chronologically, but I finally, Dial M for Murder makes it onto a top five for hours. I feel like we've done so many you know we did hitchcock i think we did murder mysteries like a lot of things and dial-m has

always like mentioned at the end like we really love this movie but for whatever reason um i know it's also a favorite of your wife's it is uh this was originally a play and then it became a great movie and it is it's you know one room the geography of the room becomes very important and so you're invested in it but I think they should really I could get more into the theater you know once everything is back and everything can be safe I like plays but I would really be into more murder mystery plays, like not enough murder mystery plays for me personally. I had a very formative experience. I was lucky enough as like a kid to see the mousetrap in London. And I became a huge Agatha Christie fan as a result,

but just solve a crime, you know, constraints are really good for murder mysteries. So it's one room who did it. It's a great call. I think, I think it would have been nice to have seen some of these things on the stage too that's really part of what is what is sad about a couple of these um i i've got two picks for 1984 my real pick is amadeus um which is the ultimate This is so much better as a movie pick,

even though I've never seen Amadeus staged as a play. Obviously, Milos Forman's extravagant vision of this story about Mozart and Salieri at this massive three-hour film is so worthy of moviedom. You know, it is like, it's really one of the great movies of the 1980s. And if you haven't seen it,

I highly recommend you check it out. It stars Tom Holson, F. Murray, Abraham. But I also rewatched Secret Honor and I just wanted to make a note about Secret Honor because there were a lot of Secret Honor jokes in the film internet bloodstream in the last days of Donald Trump because Secret Honor

is about Richard Nixon essentially locked up, having one long night, a love affair with his tape recorder, telling tales of everything that he had done and all of his motivations for all of the misdeeds and the psychological warfare that he waged and was waged against him. Features an amazing performance by Philip Baker Hall,

who went on to become one of the signature figures in the Paul Thomas Anderson universe of movies. And Secret Honor is one of PTA's favorite movies. It's a Robert Altman movie and it's truly a staged play. It is one set shot over a handful of days with this rip-roaring performance from Hall who basically has to memorize

a what must have been 200-page monologue rolling into the night, clutching a handgun drinking cognac just completely losing his marbles um and while it is a very and there was a period for altman where he was kind of only making plays come back to the five and dime jimmy dean is also like this where there are these very sort of modest productions because they were the only things he could get made. But they also reveal how creative and how clever you can be within some of those confines. So just wanted to give a shout out to Secret Honor. Okay. What's next? I just want to let you know that Amadeus would be on my list, but for once I got to make my list first and I left a couple of

classics on the board for Sean because I'm a generous person. Let's do an Amadeus pod someday. Okay. I would love to. That was part of my, my parents showed that to me really early, I think because they thought it would inspire me in my performing arts career. And I was like, so you just want me to be like a competitive psychopath? But whatever. Great film.

I mean, you know, we can talk about that another time. Maybe like a top five wonderkins episode or something maybe not top five jealous impresario episode yeah okay that would be good okay um my next is a little film called who's afraid of virginia wolf directed by mike nichols and this this is the one right this is like the this is the most play play in that it is four people in a room you know they go to a separate location but like they're in they're in one place and they're just yelling at each other and things devolve and alliances change and it gets like incredibly messy and they're like personal revelations at the end of it and I

feel like who's afraid of Virginia Wool has become, which is an excellent film has become a shorthand, both for, you know, plays turned into films and also nights gone like incredibly wrong. It has like a real place in the consciousness. So great movie. Also, I think that was given to me way too young in life. Like I think someone had, it's based on the play by Edward Albee. And I think someone gave me like in middle school or high school, like a well-meaning teacher was like, you should read this Edward Albee play. I don't know. I had a weird education. Explains a lot, Amanda. I guess so. You think about that relationship between Liz Taylor and Richard Burton's characters. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. George and Martha. Is that their names? Liz Taylor and Richard Burton's characters. Yeah.

I don't know. George and Martha. Is that their names? George and Martha, right? Correct. Yeah. That's a great one. That's a great film.

Yeah. Wasn't Mike Nichols like 28 when he made that? 26? Something absurd. Yeah. Okay. My last one is probably

no surprise to anyone who knows me well or maybe even listens to this show. It's David Mamet's Glen Gary, Glen Ross directed by James Foley released in 1992 a classic just the one the one always be closing always be closing more great speeches more great interplay more absurd hyper masculinized slash dying animal behavior you won't find any better example of that than in glenn gary glenn

ross i love this movie. And, uh, that's it. What's the last one? You got the last one. Yeah. Can you guess what it is? Can everyone at home can guess what it is? Everyone.

A few good men, baby. That's right. Aaron Sorkin. How many top fives can a few good men top for you? That's a good, it's a great question. Just like, what else are we supposed to do?

It's one of my favorite movies. It was a play. Then it turned into a movie. Like, it's eligible. It's eligible. Let's do musicals. Okay. I want to do, like,

more of a deep musicals episode at some point of this show. And frankly, as more of these spring movie releases get pushed back, R.I.P. No Time to Die's April 2nd release date, I guess, by the way.

This is supposed to be a nice podcast. We're supposed to have nice things right now. Don't bring it up. It seems like they're going to move. So what we had to do here is we had to pick five musicals that were on Broadway or in the theater as opposed to musicals that were created for Hollywood.

I'm pretty sure we both did that, right? We both stuck to that rule? Yes, I tried my best. I did the research Yes, I made a... I tried my best. I did the research. Did I do that? I think I did. Let me just look at mine. We share one.

Thank you, dude. And we can start with the shared one because I think that's... No, that's the best one. You want to go last with that one? Yeah, that's absolutely number one. Are you kidding? You can...

Can I just say also... No, can you start with what is positioned as number one on your list because i thought that this was your number one pick and i was like wow sean um there's some recency bias in my selection um i think i might have talked about this at the time but i i talked to ryan coogler a couple of years ago about um Black Panther. And he told me this story about how he went to Francis Ford Coppola for advice before he started making the film. And the advice that Francis Ford Coppola gave him was, this story in your film reminds me a lot of Brigadoon, the Vincent Minnelli musical, because it's about a kind of hidden world. It's about a place that no one else can see,

but the chosen few and those who get exposure to it are shown a world of wonder. And that's really, that is the story of Brigadoon in many ways, which is a 1950s musical that is pretty hokey, is pretty much in that classical MGM font. I love Singing in the Rain. I love Gene Kelly, just as you do. A lot of the Gene Kelly classics, not all of them, but a lot of them are not necessarily on Broadway first. Like Singing in the Rain is a kind of a jukebox musical compendium of a bunch of songs

that are stitched together about the history of Hollywood. So it wouldn't be eligible here. So this is kind of a stand-in. Gene Kelly, Van Johnson, and Sid Charisse, also notable from singing in the rain um are in brigadoon should i should i explain what this movie is about sure do people hey bobby just do you know what brigadoon is about no

because i would have said it is like a cultural reference point like a you know like there's a the brigadoon the idea as well as the musical but i guess not uh in short brigadoon is about two hunters who go on a trip to scotland and they get lost and while they're lost they come upon this village and the village is called brigadoon and it rises out of the mists every hundred years for one day and these men are exposed to this magical land for one day what happens they fall in love they get into some trouble some hijinks ensue they learn a lot about themselves and while they're doing it they sing beautiful songs um it's an alan j learner script it's you know it's it's classic hollywood up and down it's an Alan J. Lerner script. It's, you know, it's, it's classic Hollywood up and down. It's very corny, but I, I'm a huge fan.

That's me talking about Brigadoon for three minutes. How about that? I just imagine, like, I thought that Brigadoon was going to be your number one musical. And I was like, wow, I am about to learn so much about Sean. This is amazing. Um, not, not my number one musical. I like it though. Okay.

All right. Um, what's's your what's your first one i guess i'll do chronologically except for the first one um except for the number one the best one of all that we share uh which is uh bye bye birdie which i had this was a last minute addition because i had forgotten just like the intense love affair that I had with this movie as a small child. I think that my middle school did like the play version of Bye Bye Birdie. I think that was judged to be an appropriate thing for middle schoolers in Atlanta to do, which after having watched the Anne Margaret A Lot of living to do performance, I was like, Hmm, I wonder whether teenagers did this the same way. But that also, that song could have been added. They did add some songs for the film,

including the opening number with that iconic and Margaret, you know, that, I mean, that's like one of the best, what, two minutes of movies ever. And it's just her in front of a screen singing. But she really makes it work for her. But I just think that this is really delightful. And also because it's about teens and it's a bit lighter, you can kind of go along with some of the silliness of it.

But just a classic Ann-Margaret performance. I think it's a gateway drug movie. It's a movie that you usually, I saw it as a young kid before I saw even some of the classic Hollywood musicals because it's like, you know, just a little bit rock and roll, basically. And it's very charming.

It's very fun. I haven't seen it in a long time, but it's got some very good songs. Yeah. Bye Bye Birdie, of course, the title track. I'm trying to think, what is the one that jumps out to me? Oh, We Love You, Conrad. That's like that's like oh yeah that's always in my head and also the the telephone song did you hear about him yeah i can't remember the words but telephone

hour yeah going steady for a good going steady yeah there you go uh my next pick since i'm skipping one so we can talk about it together is cabaret which is based on the candor and ebb musical from 1966 this is a 1972 film directed by bob fossey starring liza manelli just bang on one of the greatest movies ever made uh it's set essentially in Weimar Germany but is meant to be a stand-in for a lot of other uh American anxieties and it's an interesting movie in the story of Bob Fosse in the aftermath of basically like the failure of his big shot at directing a Hollywood movie Sweet Charity which was also a Broadway musical um he took a pretty big fat risk on this very strange movie, which doesn't not really look like any other movie musical that had come before it and is quite provocative and fascinating. It has a style all of its own.

You saw some of the making of this movie if you watch the show Fosse-Verdon and you saw the kind of attention to detail and the kind of the way that Fosse challenged the style of moviemaking in that mini series. But this is just a terrific film. One best picture at the Oscars. It's one of the most acclaimed movies of all time, but it's got great songs. It's got great performances. It looks dazzling to this day. So yeah, check out Cabaret if you haven't seen it. One of the absolute classics. That was another one that just had to be on the list. So then I let you have it. Okay. My next is also pretty, it's pretty much a classic. There's not a lot of variety in my list, but whatever. My Fair Lady, directed by George Cukor, based on a musical by Lerner and Lowe, and also of course Pygmalion, starring Audrey Hepburn,

voiced by Marnie Noxon, who is going to come back up later in this podcast. No spoilers. This is another one that you know all of the songs, or I know all of the songs. It's just, this is how I learned the story of Pygmalion. I think this was probably first Audrey Hepburn experience and still definitely one of the most iconic Audrey Hepburns for me,

even though I don't really think it's her best performance, nor did the Academy. Fun fact about this, Julie Andrews played Eliza Doolittle in the stage version of My Fair Lady, and then she was not cast. Audrey Hepburn was cast. And then they had to dub her voice. And then Julie Andrews instead went to do Mary Poppins and won the Best Actress Oscar this year for Mary Poppins instead of Audrey Hepburn. Interesting. Very interesting. So do you want to talk about Julie Andrews now? I can let you do that right now if you'd like. Well, I mean, I have to do it by myself because you've still never seen the movie.

That's correct. I've rewatched The Sound of Music on ABC this year, as I do every year. And I even texted Sean about it. And I let him know that it was going to be on TV that Sunday night. And he didn't watch it. And I spent the whole time just being like, this movie is so good. This movie is so good. This is also probably like,

I was shown this movie at three years old. I was shown Mary Poppins. And then I was shown the sound of music. And then I was just like, cool. I watch movies now. This is my thing. I have every beat of it memorized.

It's obviously it's directed by Robert Wise starring Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer. I like based on the Rogers and Hammerstein musical. Tremendous stuff tremendous stuff and you know I think not familiar yeah you're not familiar with about it one thing because we've been talking about kind of stage to screen and this is really kind of maximize the screen it's all shot or a lot of it is shot on location in Austria that you see the hills that are alive in The Sound of Music, which is a famous quote from the film, Sean. She goes to the hills and then she sings.

Because, yeah, she's moved by The Sound of Music. But there's a very famous Do, Re, Mi sequence when they're just all through Salzburg and you really get a sense of place and it feels like the opposite of Coupden and a stage musical experience. Like you're just like out in the world. Very un-quar.

Yeah, very un-quar. Then some other really unfortunate out in the world things happen, but I don't want to spoil it for you. Do you know what happens? Does Thanos show up what happens no nazis show up uh it becomes a world war ii situation yeah it's pre-world war ii i should check this movie out huh sounds important yeah it's fine whatever i'll look into it i'll look into it sean watches the sound of music is a whole episode during quarantine so

we'll figure out what we're gonna do i tried to make it happen a month ago because it's not a christmas movie it doesn't happen at christmas but i do watch it every christmas christmas on broadcast tv it's like a tradition to me it needs to be a decision i make on my own that's just the truth of it okay i'll talk about two movies very quickly. First one, 1986, Little Shop of Horrors. Interesting bit of material. Little Shop of Horrors was a movie in the 1960s produced by Roger Corman. It might've been directed by Roger Corman, one of the earliest appearances of Jack Nicholson. It is of course about a man-eating plant. It was then adapted into a Broadway musical by Alan Menken and the late Howard Ashman.

There was an interesting documentary on Disney Plus that went up last year about Howard Ashman called Howard, who was a pretty famous and beloved lyricist who worked on a lot of Disney projects. Little Shop of Horrors is my favorite thing that he's done. And the movie itself, I think, is really fun. Another movie that is kind of etched into my childhood directed by the great Frank Oz. He of Miss Piggy and Yoda

and many great directorial feats fame and will be a guest on this podcast next week talking about this film in and of itself that he directed with the performer and magician Derek DelGaudio. Little Shop of Horror is just a lot of fun. It's just a lot of fun. It's both a retro kitsch

and black comedy satire portrayal of consumerism greed lust and also just really fun songs and songwriting so if you haven't seen it Rick Moranis Ellen Green in the lead roles as well as Audrey 2 the giant

plant that still actually is really entertaining 35 years later. The next one, I just rewatched last night for the first time, probably since it was released. Really one of the better movies of the late 90s and not necessarily underrated, but maybe a little bit overlooked, and that's Topsy Turvy.

This is not really a musical, but it is. It is a backstage drama about the creation and the launch of the production of Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado. So you and I are a couple of huge fans of Aaron Sorkin and Gilbert and Sullivan is brought up all the time in Aaron Sorkin TV shows and movies, HMS Penafore, The Pirates of Penzance. This is the librettist and the composer who put on these operettas in England in the late 19th century. And this movie is such a cool movie because one, it shows the portrayal of how difficult it is to create anything, how hard it is to write, especially when you have a partner. You and I, we are partners on this podcast. We do a pretty good job. Sometimes we don't agree. Gilbert and Sullivan did not always agree. It was very hard for them to get to the place where they could create the Mikado together. And then once

they did it, once the music was written and the lyrics were written and they were ready to stage it, they have to work with actors. They have to work with directors. They have to work with people behind the scenes. They have to work with the incredible peculiarities and particulars of making something as a group i have so much admiration for people who do that the payoff at the end of this movie is they more or less perform the mikado in the movie and you hear these incredible songs and you see mike lee the famed english filmmaker staging essentially his version of the mikado so just if you haven't seen this movie it's available via the criterion collection it's

absolutely terrific it's very long but it's beautiful and funny and weird and has one one of the great jim broadbent performances right at the center of it so highly recommend topsy turvy okay we have reached the end of our list and there's one movie no i have two more i'll go very fast oh i cut you off i don't know why i doubled up it's fine no it's fine it's fine my the other remaining besides the big one is greece. Perhaps you guys have heard of it or seen it. This is another one where this was just served to me at age eight or nine, which in retrospect, I'm not sure the lessons that I was learning from Greece, but this was like the peak sleepover movie seated a thousand times done, you know, karaoke versions of Summer Nights and Grease.

Yes, very successful. And has launched a cottage industry of its own, obviously, Grease 2. And then there are the Grease TV shows and the Grease Live, which was one of the better live musicals, I thought, when they did those a couple of years ago. Grease. No braider. To close the list, got to be West Side Story. We both have West Side Story on our list.

The number one, astonishing. I rewatched it a few weeks ago, just like in a down moment. Electric. And the thing that it does so well in addition to just being, I mean, okay, listen, this is obviously based on the musical

by book by Arthur Lawrence, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Stephen Sondheim, directed and choreographed by Jerome Robbins. The film is directed by Robert Wise and Jerome Robbins. And the thing that it does in addition to being like brilliant musically and the Rita Moreno performance is astonishing. The choreography, which was like, is so essential and is so hard to communicate on film. And, you know, someone like Gene Kelly, who is a dancer and was involved in the directors, like he was able to figure that out in his, his movie musicals. But so often, like the movement gets lost, even though you have a camera that can move. And this movie just completely figures it out.

And it's so exciting. And it's so rare that you get to be excited about dance on the screen. But I just, dance, it's magical. I don't have much more to add. I think it's a perfect example really of just why movies matter so much. This is something that was successful on the stage

and obviously has indelible songs and great great dance performances and you know is burned into the minds of the many people who saw it on stage but on film and if you get a chance to see this movie in theaters you really should it's it's majestic it's beautiful to look at it's fascinating um and it's going to be remade by steven spiel. And it's coming out into movie theaters on its 60th anniversary, which is kind of amazing. But also, do we need that? I'm not sure if we need that. We shall see. We'll see.

I have a lot of trust and faith in Steven Spielberg. So hopefully we get a wonderful new version of West Side Story and we can put a cap on this conversation at the end of this year. That does it for me and Amanda. Amanda, thanks for hanging out. I'll see you next week when we're chatting about WandaVision. Are you fired up for WandaVision? Sure. Great. I'm fired up to have you hear my conversation with Kingsley Ben-Adir. Kingsley, thanks for coming to the show, man.

My pleasure. Kingsley, a year ago, I was not terribly familiar with your work, but in that span, you have appeared in several high-profile films and TV shows. Why did all of this happen in such a short period of time for you? Do you know? I don't know. That's a good question. I think it's just part of the fluke of acting sometimes. You know, just being available and so many things that are out of your control have to kind of come together. And I guess October, November, December, January, February of the last year,

lots of things just kind of kicked off. Does it feel like a lot has been happening for you? Because obviously you've been working for years, but does it feel like things are, because we're in this very weird weird time in history normally if you'd be out on the street every day people might be recognizing you and you might feel this increased level of attention but do things feel differently any now because of how things are in the world right now i think i think people in london are a pretty reserved um being in new york when the oa came out was kind of trippy because everyone's just a little bit more forward and a little bit more sort of characterful and pretty bold and

you know just being quite open about telling you how they feel about what they've seen or whatever um but yeah it does feel kind of strange eli gray from uh One Night in Miami sent me some some shots of uh some of the billboard posters from Times Square and uh on Sunset Boulevard yesterday which I hadn't seen it was kind of hilarious and I was like there's no one there to see him you know but you know I've been a short people are still driving around like how's it going over where are you are you in New York? I'm in Los Angeles. Yeah.

I have not seen any billboards. Oh, you're in LA? Not really leaving my house. Okay, cool. Because everyone's sort of locked away. Yeah. Tell me about portraying a real person because you've now done so in two consecutive projects in the Comey Rule and in One Night in Miami. And it's a big responsibility, obviously, especially for two figures as well-known and beloved and complex as Barack Obama and Malcolm X. So what do you do when

you're taking on a role for a character who is a real person? That's a good question. I thought, you know, I was thinking about today, I was like, it was, it was, I think it was a first for all of us on one night in Miami playing real people. Um, my, because Barack sort of came first and I started having conversations with Billy Ray, the director about, you know, being a part of that show. And I guess because it was in the politest possible way, a small part, you know, like a, a very small piece of the puzzle the puzzle I thought and I'm really not the right age to be playing him but I did feel like from a selfish acting point of view it was an awesome

challenge and a challenge that I hadn't had up until this point just to sort of try and nail the essence of someone so famous and so well known. And, you know, particularly in the, in the dialect, I feel like Barack Obama is someone who you could play almost anywhere in the

world and people would, would know who he was. And I was like, I wonder how far I can sort of push this without doing a caricature, but trying to keep the essence. So it was really just an acting challenge for me and I guess I started really cost me November so I was just sort of gently working away at you know watching videos and doing my research and then Regina came along with Malcolm and then it all kind of got a little bit complicated because they were both going

to shoot at the same time in a very short space of time in terms of in terms of preparation because it was such a whirlwind I was kind of doing a million different things all at the same time I think in an ideal world if it hadn't have been such a rush I would have set out a few months to do reading and I would have read things once or twice. And at the same time, I would have been sort of watching videos and then trying to ingest the text and working out. But because of the time pressure that we were under, I was kind of doing it all at once. And I don't really remember in what order or what was the most it was just a bit of a deep dive in to just try to figure out and learn as much as possible

about both the men and then on some level like working out who they were and what their places were within the stories and you know and then the hopes and fears and dreams and I don't know and then the hopes and fears and dreams and

I don't know and then just coming in and playing I guess I didn't really there wasn't really time to feel the pressure I guess is what I'm trying to say I'm just rambling but I feel like because it was all last minute there's so much of the the pressure was around like getting the job and then once Regina cast me it was like right i have to just sort of make this work um so i was just yeah i just i just i just i just took a deep dive into it and uh and it came out on the other side and didn't really know what happened you know i read i read that read that Regina saw you as Cassius originally and not as Malcolm. Is that true? Well, I found out recently that it was actually my agents who thought that I would make a good Cassius.

And they were pushing me on Kim and Regina and Kim the casting director and then they sent me the material and I didn't feel like I was the right fit but for a long time I thought it was casting coming up with me but it was actually my agency. Tell me you mentioned you were reluctant to make sure Obama didn't seem like a caricature. And I'm sure that that's something that you have to think about, that line between impersonation and embodiment and interpretation. And how do you figure out when there's someone who we have visual and historical evidence of, how do you avoid slipping into those things when you're portraying somebody like Malcolm or President Obama? I guess hope. I guess sometimes maybe I did. And I had two really great directors

who could help guide and shape. That's a really good question. And I don't know the answer to it. I feel like it should always be whatever you're doing, whether it's a real life character or or not it's always sort of coming through you you know it's always your characters are just an extension of you i'm not trying i'm not pretending to be malcolm i'm doing my version of malcolm through

me and i don't know i don't know i just i just sort of play it play it in my own way and and and hope for the best I don't know how I I guess really trying to root Malcolm in the emotional world I guess one night in Miami when when I read it for the first time, Malcolm was the character that jumped off the page for me. And there was something about the debate between him and Sam that really popped and stayed with me. And that was the character that I always, I hoped would become available and I'd be able to audition for and i think that was to do with reading it it's just very clear that in a very unique way the the emotional undercurrent or the interior world of malcolm really is such a huge part of the arc of this story and how like his vulnerability all of their vulnerability and vulnerabilities and honesty and friendship and love between the men

is the thing that this story is relying on. And so if you're going to, you need a group of actors who are not going to be doing cliches and caricatures. I don't think it would work. So I think Regina knew what she was doing when she cast us. And I think that all of the conversations that we had early on before I was cast were definitely about Regina wanted to make sure that I am, that we were both agreed on needing to show Malcolm as,

you know, a husband and a friend and a father and a human being before just trying to show him in a different light, a light that maybe we haven't seen before. So there needs to be this understanding, this acceptance that the four men in One Night in Miami are, in addition to being iconic figures in our minds, that they're friends, that they have a relationship. So I don't know if you knew the other actors beforehand how did you guys bond to get to know each other build rapport given that you know it's pretty short shooting schedule and these things move very quickly what

did you do ahead of time we didn't really we didn't have any time at all we like flew into new orleans on the 2nd of jan January and we were shooting on the 4th. Wow. So we kind of sat down one evening and read through the script at like 9pm. We came in to see the set and it was like, yeah, we're going to come in on Monday and just start this. So we were really rehearsing in the mornings that we were shooting and we were getting really getting to know each other as as we were going um and we and we started the schedule meant that we we started right in the middle

so we we started and we started on the scene where they all come back from the roof where Malcolm's really sort of like going that's um just really right in the the heat of the start that big scene in the room um so it it did feel kind of strange because I was just berating and and and really sort of like going in on those boys for the first two or three days and that was the first stuff that we really did and i think there was maybe a slight sense of confusion because when you're filming you're you're repeating those beats over and over again from all the different angles and i was just laying into sound. So that was an interesting first couple of days, shooting that scene. And yeah, we'd started just having conversations

between takes and just around the days. It was just an ongoing conversation and investigation from the first day we got there all the way until the end. I think there was actually... I think there was something about the time pressure and not rehearsing and not really knowing each other and feeling really pressed to get everything done but also that there was how just for shooting something else I was shooting something else Leslie was sort of had still had some obligations for some tour dates and Eli for personal

reasons had to so making the schedule work for all of us was like really complicated I don't know how the producers managed to make it work, but we were shooting those scenes in, in the room in such a, a mixed up and out of sequence order. So like staying on top of the emotional through line became such a, that became the real like concentration and just remembering what you've done in the beat earlier in the scene and connecting it to later in the scene and that's where regina really came

in and steered the ship in such a brilliant way yeah that seems so difficult because it's a stage piece originally too and so you'd think that you would shoot chronologically just for almost the sake of the mental aspect of making the picture. Absolutely. I know. And we didn't. But I did sort of understand before Christmas when Regina cost me was that I need to come in and know this thing like a play, you know, and be able to jump in and jump out of any moment on any day at any minute and and I'm glad that I did prepare in that way because there were weather problems and we had to jump from the roof back into the room and we were we were actually doing that we were constantly jumping between moments and we come in in the

morning and we said we're not doing that scene we're doing this scene and these are like 14 15 page scenes where Malcolm's doing a lot of the heavy lifting and a lot of the speaking. So it was really in, in, in such a massive way, it was so important to, to, to know the piece back to front,

you know, and, and, but still stay open and nimble to change and suggestions from Regina and stuff. And, and, and loose in the sense that you need to,

we need, we needed to be playing with each other you know like we needed to be riffing off of each other and seeing what we seeing what everyone else was doing but i definitely came in with a strong idea about where malcolm was emotionally at each moment you know know, throughout the film. And then, you know, it was just a discussion in and around that on depending on what scene, where we were on what particular day. You mentioned that sort of debate, that back and forth that you and Sam Cooke, Sam Cooke's

character, Leslie's character are having. And it's this, you it's this ethical and intellectual conversation about what it means to meaningfully contribute to the betterment of society and your cause and what you're devoted to. And Sam Cooke's character is on one side and Malcolm's is on the other side. Obviously, that's the film and that debate and that conversation is very timely. And that's one of the reasons why the movie is resonating so much but i'm curious just from your point of view you're you are a performer and an entertainer but you're embodying somebody who's on the other side of that conversation at least at that time in history you know where do you fall in in that conversation in the film who do you empathize with who do you

feel like you understand more in that sequence i feel like yeah of course there's a there's a bit of sam cook in in all of us and i think think that's why Malcolm's words in the piece hit so hard because he's sort of forcing us all to look at the hypocrisy of what we're doing and question how much we are doing and whether or not we're doing enough, whether what we're doing is the right thing. It's hard because you don't want to be too judgmental sometimes we'd be playing the scene i'd be like damn sam's getting

a real hard time here you know like it's pretty it's pretty rough but like i think because of the the imaginative stakes but actually the stakes that really Malcolm, I feel like at this time, there were such huge changes going on for him. And his relationship with the nation of Islam was really like coming to an end. And his relationship with Elijah Muhammad was crumbling. And there was a sense that he was being pushed out. And I feel like a lot of the heat that happens in that conversation is, I think, coming from a place in Malcolm where he is under a lot of stress rather than, you know.

And I think by the time we get to the end, they will make up and it does sort of end on a feeling of love. But I do, yeah, that's the debate that pops out. the end they will make up and it does sort of it ends on a feeling of love but i i do yeah that was the that's the debate that pops out it's interesting and um i don't know i feel like my responsibility is to just you know be grateful for what i have and and put you know a hundred percent of myself into everything that I do and just try and be kind and decent and listen, you know? So I don't know how Malcolm would feel about that one.

We often hear about the difference between film acting and stage acting and you have experience doing both, but because this is, because when I night in Miami is is a was a play originally i was wondering like were there conversations about how to modulate or did you have to like would this have been significantly different if you four and regina had staged this for a live audience as opposed to the way that you were shooting sequences in the film in terms of your performances i came in pretty hard and heavy on the first day. Like I was,

I was sort of, yeah, the stage, stage acting versus screen acting thing. Yeah. It would be completely different. I think, I think the one thing that I'm learning about filmmaking or the camera,

and to be fair, I haven't been on stage in six or seven years now, but one night in Miami was really the first time. I haven't been on stage in six or seven years now, but one night in Miami was really the first time for me as an actor in front of a camera where so many of the technical things really fell into place. It was the first time that I'd really tried to marry my work

with the camera and continuity and understanding where we were shooting from and the order in the sequence and when we were doing a wide and sort of the progression of the day and I was really paying a lot of attention to that in a way that I I haven't before and it was it was really quite freeing in a way that I haven't before. And it was really quite freeing in a way, understanding what those limitations were, when you were being helpful to Regina and Tammy and when you weren't and why. And it's taken a long time for that stuff to sink in.

And obviously that's completely different to when you're working on stage because you don't have any of those things to think about or worry about. You just need to make sure you're heard and understood in the back. Differences. Would it have been different if we were on stage?

I think it would also be completely different depending on what stage you were on, depending on how big the stage was or the auditorium was and how many people you're performing to and basically where you have to reach where vocally you have to reach sort of determines uh your performances on stage i think anyway i don't know it's been a while like um you know president obama and alchemx are quintessentially american figures and there's

been this ongoing conversation about whether non-americans should portray figures like this when we're making art um i i assume that at least crossed your mind as you were determining whether you should participate in these projects when you were asked about them you know where do you how do you feel about the idea of someone who is not from a country portraying a significant historical you know it really wasn't on my mind when i was going in phoenix castings at all i didn't i didn't think about it i uh the the auditions and the opportunity came my way and I threw my hat in the ring. It was only when waiting to hear back from Regina about who she was going to cast as Malcolm that I really started to understand that there was something going on.

There was an extra difficulty in her decision that I wasn't aware of. And then by the time I was cast, I didn't really have time to think about anything else. I had 12 days to prepare. It's a tricky conversation because I feel like this is something that is, it's still unpacking in a very big way as we speak.

And, you know, and also depending on, I think a lot of people don't like, each casting process is different. So each project has its own very specific process of casting. And, you know, and I can only really speak for, you know, I'm only really an expert in the casting process that I had with Regina. And all I can say is that they were under a lot of pressure to find their Malcolm and not a lot of time. And, you know, and quite a prominent,

you know, well-known African-American actor dropped out very, very last minute. And, you know, and they,rican-american actor dropped out very very last minute and you know and they and and i you know i was coming from a regina wanted 15 20 pages on tape you know for this this wasn't my first rodeo you know i've been here a number of times, and I knew how to handle that. I knew how to handle the text for this in a way that made it very, very difficult for Regina not to give me the job. And that was to do with, I think, just having a little bit more experience than the other couple of guys who were also being considered at the later stage.

But, you know, as an actor, I feel like, and maybe this is naive of me to say, but I feel like I'm interested in playing anyone and everyone, you know. But yeah, as I said, the conversation about who should be playing who is a conversation that's sort of underway. And, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just doing my thing over here. There's already a very iconic performance of Malcolm X on screen. And I did not think of it one time while watching you, which obviously is a compliment to the work that you did and that you guys did in making the film. But I was wondering if you felt any pressure

knowing that there is this sort of, this frankly legendary Denzel Washington performance looming in some respects. You know what? Because obviously, this is not the first time I've been asked this question. And I think as some sort of weird defense mechanism I've said no, I wasn't nervous at all. I actually found it quite exciting and I actually found it quite exhilarating.

But you're not going to bullshit me. Yeah, I'm actually wondering how true that actually is and whether sometimes when we're really scared our defense mechanisms can turn into denial and we're we actually you know i i do i do think though like as a working actor as a jobbing actor you know there's there is definitely something about the audition process and waiting to find out whether you've got a job that you really want that is the most horrendous part of not horrendous i mean there's a lot worse things in the world but it's it's the part where you can feel kind of on edge in the waiting to find out and it's the decisions out of your control and sometimes it can drag on for a long time and most of the time you just don't

find out you know you're just you you know you just you're in this like you're in this this this this sort of this low-level state of anxiety waiting to know what you're going to be doing for the next four months of your life and then and then no one tells you and then you just find out someone else got it on google or something so i i feel like the the two weeks between me taping and all of the conversations going back between me and Regina that we were having about Malcolm and who he was before she cast me, the waiting to find out was the most excruciating part. kind of nervous time but i just think when when i got the job because there was only 12 days to get ready i just was like i don't think i thought about them at once the whole time you know and and also i feel like when i've read the script it's very very clear that this is a this is a a very very different malcolm um and that's part of what was so exciting about it.

I was like, oh, this is actually a whole different side to the guy. You know, like, I think anyway, just in the sense that it's all in a room, it's on one particular night, and he's with his friends, and they're having a very, very specific conversation. And also, so much of this story is to do with all of their vulnerabilities, but Malcolm's in particular, I think, and the stress that he must have been under at that time. And I came across this really beautiful article, an interview of Dickregory who turns out i didn't know was a dear friend of malcolm's um and he just said the most incredible things that about how how sweet malcolm was and what a kind and and uh and a bashful human being he was and how good humored he was and how funny he was and how loving and caring he was and that the the the lacerate and demagogue that we all know is

really a uh a character that malcolm slipped in and out of you know and the way he understood and leveraged the media was you know kind of genius in a way, like he knew what he was doing. But there's another side to him, the private side to Malcolm that I thought really made this project such an interesting prospect. And I get a little bit nervous going like, oh, I wonder if people are going to accept this side of Malcolm you know he's such a hero for so many people and he he this sort of figure of fearlessness you know and talk about someone who put the fucking fear of God in white America and like and just demanded respect didn't ask for it demanded it and like sort of metaphorically was just you know he took his space and he didn't give a fuck you know uh so to show him in

a way where maybe he might have been scared or he you know he may have felt alone he must have felt so alone and actually there was another wonderful quote. I think it was, I think this was Malcolm, Malcolm saying this to Dick Gregory, that this particular time, as he was being pushed out of the nation, as he was in this film that on the,

on the fight night, he was actually on a two, a two or three week ban, I think a four week ban. But I think Malcolm understood that people were trying to push him out and that his time was up there. But sorry, sorry, I'm getting back to my point. Malcolm said at this time that he felt weak and he felt hollow and no one knew the torments that he went through.

And that just kind of blew my mind. And I was like, if ever there was a, a bit of research or a bit of evidence in this article that sort of gave us permission or the full freedom to explore that vulnerability, then, then that was it.

It was the conversation between him and Dick. Sorry, the interview with Dick Gregory. It's perhaps ironic that the fear and the concern about waiting to find out if you got the chance to play this part, you might not have that as much in the aftermath of this because a lot of people are going to know who you are.

This is a huge moment, I presume, in your career and you must be feeling that uh i feel like i did a pretty good job of deluding myself into things that deluding myself pretending things aren't happening when they are happening just to sort of like cope emotionally and like and i also understand because i'm i feel like i'm a little bit older now that um the work like understanding narratives and characters and connecting psychology and behavior to story and like the real work more and more as I'm getting older is the thing that's interesting me a lot. And I find that the other stuff kind of like, I can get really distracted by it and,

and sort of lose focus on, on what the, you know, the important part of it is. But what I will say is that like, I'm definitely over the last couple of months read some of the best material that I've ever read. That doesn't mean that I've definitely, over the last couple of months, read some of the best material that I've ever read. That doesn't mean that I've got the jobs at all.

But also, we're in this really strange time where the whole world's kind of shut down. So I just think overall, it's hard to know because I'm just stuck at home and just reading scripts and doing meetings on Zoom. I'm sure if the pandemic wasn't happening, I imagine there'd be a lot of kind of flying around at the moment and going to all the festivals and Santa Barbara this and the Venice this and whatnot. But it's been kind of nice being at home and being able to do some of this stuff in your pajamas when no one can see the bottom half of your body. I can relate to that. If not the getting famous during a curious time in history part that you're experiencing. Kingsley, Kingsley, we end every episode of the show by asking guests, what's the last great thing they've seen? So since you're at home, have you been watching stuff? Yeah, I watched 21 Grams last night and I was watching Babel this morning. Oh, you're on an Inuit kick.

Yeah, I'm having a little bit of a binge and a catch up with lots of films that I haven't seen in maybe seven or eight years. And I remember yeah, I'm having a little bit of a binge and a catch up with lots of films that, uh, I haven't seen in maybe seven or eight years. And I remember watching 21 grams boy when I was 18 or 19, like a long time, like when it not long after it came out and I watched it last night and I definitely was like, boy, I wasn't ready for this when I watched it,

you know, like I was really too young and I didn't understand like the levels. But I was up. I was up at like till three, four in the morning, wide awake. I mean, that that movie had my attention in a very, very serious way. And it's kind of dealing with such profound loss and the way that the three interconnected stories, but they're all kind of dealing with their own version of, of grief and guilt.

And I mean, just a real masterstroke. Like I woke up today and I was still thinking about it and just how, how tragic, but how hopeful, how hopeful it still is at the end you know and uh yeah kind of just it it made me although it was like really really sad profoundly sad and moving that it did leave you kind of with a feeling like god just be just be grateful for the days that you do have and the moments

where you are healthy and the family and friends that you do have around and really nurture those relationships and try and enjoy yourself in this moment. So somehow that really makes that film make me think about just trying as much as possible to remain in a state of gratitude so i'll say 21 grams just because it's fresh it's like right at the forefront of my mind um uh did you say one film that's one one film yes one film is great so we'll say 21 grams i probably haven't seen that since i was 18 either so it's a great recommendation kingsley congrats on just an amazing year and one night in Miami especially. And thanks for doing the show. I appreciate talking to you.

Thank you, bro. My pleasure. Thank you to Kingsley Benadir. Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. Thank you to Bobby Wagner. Please tune into The Big Picture next week when we will be chatting about Tiger Park 2 and of course the premiere of wandavision