The Big Picture - Top Five Animated Movies of the 21st Century and ‘The Mitchells vs. The Machines’

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

The release of ‘The Mitchells vs. The Machines’ got us thinking about the best animated movies since 2000. Rob Harvilla and Charles Holmes join Sean to talk about the medium and their favorites from the past 20 years. (0:21) Then, Sean is joined by ‘The Mitchells vs. The Machines’ director Mike Rianda to talk about his movie and the five-year journey to get it to Netflix. (1:00:08) Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Rob Harvilla and Charles Holmes; Mike Rianda Producer: Bobby Wagner Additional Production: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's music critic Rob Harvilla curates and explores 60 iconic songs from the 90s that define the decade. Rob is joined by a variety of guests to break it all down as they turn back the clock. Check out 60 songs that explain the 90s exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the movies that animate our lives. Later in the show, I'll be joined by Mike Rihanda, the director of one of the best movies of the year so far, The Mitchells vs. The Machines, about the five-year journey of making an animated film with depth, humor, and expansiveness. And speaking of animated movies, let's talk about them with two Ringer staff writers, Rob Harvilla, host of the exquisite show 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, and Charles Holmes, host of the exquisite show The 60 songs that explain the nineties and Charles Holmes, host of the exquisite show, the ringer music show.

Fellas, what up? Oh, wait. Also, you got a one half of the midnight boys. Good point. You are a midnight boy, but today you're an 11 a.m. boy here with me and Rob. Guys, thanks for being here. I don't, I know I thought of Rob because Rob is a father, and Rob and I have talked about animated movies on this podcast before. And I'm always interested when thinking about animation and the state of animation, what are parents seeing and what do

they want their kids to see? Charles, in many ways, I think of you as like a beautiful boy. You're still forming. You're still evolving your vision of the world. You also just have radically interesting taste to me. So, and I know you're a fan of animation, but like maybe you can tell me about your relationship to it before we dig into this episode. Yeah, so I'm also known as like the captain of the hot takes here at The Ringer, you know? And Sean is going to kill me for this take,

but like my number one movie of all time, not my number one animated movie, my number one movie of all time is The Lion King. That was like, like I broke the VHS as a kid. That was how much like animation meant to me. And I think because I come from like a very large extended family, there were so many kids. I think my grandparents, I think had like seven kids and all of those like kids had like four or five kids so i think the whole thing was like uncles and aunts and cousins were always putting on cartoon movies to keep us all entertained and that's like just something i'd never let go of so i still to this day watching

a cartoon is like oh yeah this is like me and my cousins the people like shut up just this is thanksgiving just shut up go in there and watch disney movie i ride for the for the original lion king what what did you make of the the cgi remake though terrible it broke my heart it broke my heart i i love donald glover uh as a figure and i love beyonce but like they should be in prison for 60 seconds for what they did okay prison rob that's funny because I know that the 2019 Lion King was your favorite movie of that year. Is that right? Absolutely. I adored it. I wore out the VHS tape of the 2019 Lion King.

Absolutely. What did you guys think of The Mitchells vs. The Machines? Because I think it kind of caught me by surprise. I knew it was a Lord and Miller production and they have come to be a very trusted brand in the animated space. But the movie had changed titles. It was a Sony movie. It was called Connected at a certain point. And then it got acquired by Netflix as so many Sony movies have recently. And then it just felt like it kind of crept up on me and dropped. I wasn't really planning an episode about it. And then it just seemed like it boomed very quickly. Rob, did you respond to it? Did you show it to

your kids? My kids wanted to watch it. We watched it and it was a great experience. I think it was that core thing of like, the parents enjoy it, but the kids also enjoy it. The parents aren't on their phone the whole time during the movie, which is sort of the baseline. And of course, what I like about that, what I like about Mitchell vs. the Machines is that it's a movie that acknowledges

that kids, by and large, would rather watch YouTube. It's a movie about how the internet has taken over everything. I thought a Ralph breaks the internet from a few years back in that respect. It's just good movies about how movies have lost so much ground, cultural ground to the internet. And it was just very funny, you know, the voice acting,

like Maya, shout out Maya Rudolph as, you know, voice acting like my shout out maya rudolph as you know the ideal animated mom she is also she's the mother figure in a netflix movie from last year called the willoughbys like not as prestigious but it's based on a lois lowry book and like she she should play the mom in every animated movie going forward like she's she's the right combination of like motherly and wacky you know but i it But I just thought it was funny and very fresh. And my boys are 7 and 10, and the 10-year-old responded, I think, to the teenage or pre-teenage anxiety hovering. He's starting to cross over a little bit and look at these movies differently.

Another movie we watched recently that I thought of was the Dora movie, Dora and the Lost City of Gold, which is kind of about a preteen who still acts like she's in a kid show, you know, and like she's infectious and like everybody at the end is acting like they're in a kid show. But just this crossover thing that I'm feeling happening with my older son, especially where he's like, he's not, he's not a tween yet. You know, he's not totally crossing over into teenage doom, but you can feel it happening. And this is a movie Mitchell and the machines that like, I feel like acknowledges that and plays with that idea. Yeah. I feel like self-consciousness and self-awareness is a big part of a wave of new recent movies. I think the

movies that we talk about that are our favorites on the show, the first half of the decade, I think there'll be maybe more earnestness. And then the second half of the decade, there's this kind of self-referentiality that comes along with it. I thought the Mitchells versus the machines basically balanced both very neatly. It's a very earnest story about a family, but it's also a very kind of like hyper aware robot apocalypse movie that is about the terrors of the internet. Charles, you're a little bit younger than Rob and I, and you are somebody who has had the internet IV'd directly into your bloodstream probably since you were born. What'd you make of this movie? I thought I was going to hate it based on the premise because I was like,

oh, here's a 40-year-old director telling us about the perils of technology. And then when I was watching it i was like oh like he like he did a little bit of a twist on that and the the movie lands where it's like technology is not bad like uh being without technology is a bad like it was very nuanced and i think um it was it was created by the creator of gravity falls um and all these things and i think i love cartoons just like on cartoon network and disney and what i think you're starting to see is like this generation of people who grew up on classic uh cartoons being able to kind of like circumvent

our expectations it almost kind of feels like the tumblr generation where like lord and miller with like all of their produced stuff, whether it's Lego Movie or Spider-Verse, it's all pop culture. It almost has to be just as entertaining as a YouTube video. And that's what I liked about this. The movie felt as chaotic as some of the like

YouTube videos I know kids watch or I know my nieces and nephews are watching right now. Yeah, I returned to Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs last night for the first time in forever, which is also a Lord and Miller movie, which is a really fun adaptation of a book that is about this thick. I think there's a total of 14 pages in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. And they somehow turned it into a 90-minute movie. And one of the gags in the movie, this is a movie that was made 12, 13 years ago,

is in order to distract the weather girl who has invaded his space, the inventor basically shows her a YouTube cat video. So even going back all the way back then, they were kind of riffing on this idea. And I think you're right, Charles. Mike Rihanda is clearly somebody who I think is aware of the potential ethical catastrophes of big technology. But also by putting this character, Katie, this young girl who's about to go off to college at the center of the movie,

it kind of identifies that technology has allowed her to be more creative than her parents were allowed to be. She gets to be not just an aspiring filmmaker, but an actual filmmaker at the age of 16, 17 years old. And she's making memes, but she's making something, which is pretty cool. I mean, Rob, do your kids see a movie like that as potentially inspiring, do you think? I think so. I mean, she finds her people. She doesn't have any people where she is, including her family. And she finds her people on the internet. The internet isn't bad. People are bad. And my 10-year-old wants to go on YouTube. He wants to have his own YouTube channel. And it's just like, absolutely not, man. I'm just absolutely terrified at the notion of

them engaging with the internet in any way, shape, or form. But it's inevitable. It's not something I'm going to be able to fight with my 40-year-old values or whatever. We have to find a way to teach them how to be on the internet and not have the internet crush them. And Mitchell's versus the machines, yeah, I think that it really gets it balancing that, like finding the good in the internet and just avoiding the rest. What if your son, though, knows the true identity of Q? I mean, think of the old missed opportunities. Don't even talk to me about this, man. You know what my kids are into? My kids, they play Among Us, the video game.

And they have found all these videos. There's like a subculture of synth pop songs about Among Us. Like I Saw You Vents, you know, Your Suss, et cetera. It's the worst music ever made. I just, I've been on this show. The last time I was on this show was Trolls World Tour, I believe. Oh, I love Trolls World Tour love trolls yeah set it aside charles i've been totally totally typecast as the animated movie guy on this show and that's fine but like i i complained at length about the troll soundtracks

and i'm telling you the troll soundtrack is astral weeks compared to this shit compared i just so there are way worse things on the internet than like any bad movie i've ever seen with my kids rob i have a really quick question please what what pitchfork score would your would your son give this synth pop among us uh music i would say just under best new music you know like a like a 7.8, you know, just outside, you know, the PR didn't quite come through for the Among Us guys, but it's just that they're on the cusp of greatness. Do you think the big picture would get sued by Pitchfork if I started affixing best new music to certain new films? That's something I should, I feel like the brand

is strong there. I think so. Yes, we should do it. Absolutely. And you should give all the Shrek movies best reissue. Shout out to our producer, Sasha, who shared some absolutely scalding Shrek versus Pixar takes earlier. Sasha, please do not talk about those takes on this podcast. Rob,

one, I want to apologize for typecasting you. I promise you... No, it's fine. When we do our 10-part Kieslowski's The Decalogue Pod, you will be able to join us for all 10 episodes. Exactly what I was going to propose, yes. Charles, tell me about the state of animation right now. Do you think that these films, one, they seem to be a huge part of the culture.

They seem to be a huge solution. When we talk about where movies are going and even some of the anxiety that's inside of the Mitchells and the machines, there seems to be obviously a concern from jerks like me that movies are not as important as they used to be. And in some cases, that's true. There's superhero movies, there's horror movies,

and I think there's animated movies. That's kind of the holy trilogy of genres that can draw an audience. But do you think that these movies are as good or potentially even better than they were, say, when you were growing up? Oh, yeah. I think Lord and Miller specifically, I think they've just kind of jump-started animation in a certain way. We're getting to a point where it's like, LeBron's going to be in a Space Jam movie that's damn near just the Lego movie. They have kind of this outsized cultural impact.

And what I think, you know, what you're seeing in animation is that you have the Pixar generation. That's what I would call like Rob and you, Sean, where it's just like, Pixar is kind of just making adult movies now. Like, I don't know how like much kids are like, yeah, I want to watch rewatch soul five times. And then you have kind of like i think the the more kiddie side of it with the disney animations where you have like moana and frozen where you have very young kids who are like we are going to like break the streaming services watching this every day and i think what you're now getting with sony is you're kind of getting this middle ground where it's like i can enjoy like i still enjoy pix. I still enjoy Disney animation, but me as like, you know, I'm 28 right now. I can enjoy Into the Spider-Verse. I can enjoy

Mitchell versus the machines. And I could see like teenagers kind of being like, oh, like I get this. Like they can see themselves in like a Miles Morales. They can see themselves. And what's the, what's the main character, Katie's name? Her name's Katie, right? Katie Mitchell. Yeah. Katie Mitchell. They can, I think teenagers or even me at 28, I could see myself in Katie. I was in college not that long ago. So I think Sony especially is carving out this preteen teenage 20-year-old market. But maybe I'm wrong. What do you think, Rob? Are they getting better? You're wrong, Charles. That's the takeaway here. What I was going to say, I was thinking about Disney Plus

and the effects even the structure of Disney Plus is going to have on a generation of kids, because it teaches kids to think in franchise. It's like, here's every Star Wars movie. Here's every Marvel movie. And Pixar is the third. Pixar is sort of the foundational animation for my kids, at least. Obviously, pandemic, we've been locked down. We've been watching tons of movies like this, and they wanted to watch every Pixar movie. Those movies are as important to them as the Lion King era Disney movies were to me as a kid. Is that a good thing that those Pixar movies are that? Yes, I think so. I've talked on this podcast and written a lot about when my kids were younger, I would watch Pixar

movies and feel like I was watching a different movie from them. And I was watching this really intense, emotionally devastating depiction of childhood and childhood's end. And they were just watching like cartoon characters yelling at each other and i feel now that as my kids are getting a little older they're seven and ten now you know it's there's not this upstairs downstairs shift a split between what i'm watching and what they're watching they can watch onward onward is explicitly a movie about mourning your dead father soul is explicitly a movie about like being dead and like finding out what to live for you know it's it's it's not that they're not getting something that I'm getting anymore. And maybe I was wrong about that the whole time, but I think Pixar is a fantastic foundation, you know, for kids and

animation. And from there, like, you know, when HBO max did studio Ghibli at all those movies, like that was a huge moment. And we went on a huge run there. Wolfwalkers even. There's a trilogy of Irish folk animation that's beautiful and is head and shoulders for me above a lot of animation now. And it never occurred to me to watch Fantastic Mr. Fox with them. I totally forgot that that was PG. It's like playing them a Wes Anderson movie was like playing Captain Beefheart for them in my mind for a long time. But it's like, no, that'd be a fantastic movie to watch with them. Like Isle of Dogs is probably PG. You can build from there. But I think that Pixar makes a great foundation

for my kids, at least. So it's tricky, right? Because your kids are also about to be in that preteen zone that Charles has identified too. And I wonder, will, will your kids, will kids who grew up closely with Pixar hold onto it the way that we held onto Aladdin and the Lion King? And, and, and, you know, I talked about this when we talked about, um, Toy Story on the rewatchables about how, you know, that was, you got, you had a season past every Pixar movie. If you got that movie at the right time, if you got that movie and you were in your, you know, anywhere from three to 14 years old, you were probably like, I guess I have to see every single thing that this studio makes now. And I'm still feeling that way, but I do agree with you, Charles, that Pixar seems to have moved into this really fascinating state where like every movie is like some sort of

emotional reckoning for its middle-aged filmmaker. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I thought soul was absolutely beautiful and fascinating and incredibly creative, but it does strike. It's a, it's a movie that is very similar to inside out in that it is like a little bit hard to cope with. It's a little bit, it's not fun. It's, it's deep movie that is very similar to inside out in that it is like a little bit hard to cope with. It's a little bit, it's not fun. It's, it's deep and strong and powerful, but it, and there are funny parts of it.

There's a talking cat. That's hilarious. But there's a sense of emotional complexity and depth and spirituality to that movie that is really profound. And I wonder, like I think, I think about this when I think about what is adult animation as well. Like,

what does it mean to, to, to have movies that are specifically made for adults that are in this format and medium? Because we'll talk about some of our favorites. I think for the most part, most of our favorites are movies that, even if they have adult themes, are very much made to entertain children first and foremost. Do you guys like movies animated movies and i don't mean like the fritz the cat style like more lurid stories but like animated films that are made specifically for adults charles what about you oh i have uh yeah i would say pixar has lost me recently and it's not that i don't like the movies i think that like i love miyazaki and the thing that like i when i'm like stressed i just watch miyazaki documentaries and what i love that he's. And the thing that like I, when I'm like stressed, I just watch Miyazaki documentaries.

And what I love that he's always saying is he's like, I make movie for like movies for children. My logic, everything in this follows childlike logic. It does not need to make sense for adults. It has to be entertaining for children. And sometimes when you have like adult, like adults trying to like go through like a catharsis through the animation.

Sometimes I'm like, this is like a good movie. I like this as a story. I don't know if it's entertaining. Like I don't like, there is something about like Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse where I'm like, oh, I, I get this, but it's also entertaining. Like this is an adult, adults can watch this, but I'm still like on the ride where soul i can watch soul like once and i'm like okay like this was deep i teared up and i never want to watch it again and that's where i kind of great on like later stage pixar because i grew up on toy story i grew up on ratatouille and those to me still felt like oh kids movies i could see like going to the disney store people like i want a remi doll i want to buzz lightyear i don't know like what toy somebody from soul wants besides like the cat like coco

maybe but like what toys was coco selling you know what i mean what um what about movies like um waking life or waltz with basheer or anomalisa you know like films that are specifically made for adult like kids should not watch anomalisa in fact if you show anomalisa, you know, like films that are specifically made for adults. Like kids should not watch Anomalisa. In fact, if you show Anomalisa to your children, you should be put in jail. But do you like, Rob, do you respond to that? Do you seek out movies like that? I saw Waltz with Bashir in the theater and I really liked it. You know, I have this memory of them using the song Enola Gay as there's a bunch of soldiers on a ship. That image has stayed with me. I was

trying to think of animated movies that I saw in a theater before I had kids. And that's WALL-E. That's fantastic, Mr. Fox. That's Toy Story 3, I believe. That movie, The Triplets of Belleville, back in 2003, that's a great movie. Parts of that soundtrack

are still stuck in my head. That's on great movie. Parts of that soundtrack are still stuck in my head. And that's on the list now to play my kids that I think that my kids will respond to. But yeah, Waking Life, I haven't watched in a very long time. But as just sort of a stoned experiment, I really respected the hell out of it. That's another Captain Beefheart thing of like, I'm going to play my kids Waking Life and're going to become a little philosophers, you know, it's like, that's not fucking happening, you know? And so I, I was trying to think of what my taste in animated movies was before I had kids. And I think it was pretty similar to what it is now. You know, the, what I responded to was like the early Aardman stuff. Like I loved Sean, the sheep

chicken run, like that kind of thing before myman stuff. Like I loved Sean, the sheep chicken run, like that kind of thing before my kids on their own fell into Sean, the sheep. And like, I have a vivid memory of seeing early man, you know, the, the soccer one with my, with my son, you know, back in 2018. And that's a great memory. I it's, I think that my kids and I have similar taste in movies, but again, what I see happening as they get a little older is they're drifting away from movies. They most respond to movies that are talking specifically about the internet and the primacy, the increasing dominance of the internet. And they're into memes. And they want to be YouTube stars themselves.

They want to get on Twitch. I'm trying to think. that sounds like a nightmare it is it is a nightmare charles and so i i was i was so honored to be on this podcast sean and i was like what is the nicest thing i can do for sean to thank him and so i sat down with my children last night and i watched this movie called rango hell yeah familiar 2011 it's gorbinski is it's i was mistaken it's not a frog sheriff he's a gecko uh my god right he is he's not a frog sheriff i hope chris ryan is listening that fucking bastard my my my kids watched very respectively the movie ended this is my seven-year-old's reaction verbatim to Rango. You ready? I'm ready. Eh.

That was it. What the hell is that? Just like that. Eh. I would seriously consider putting that kid up for adoption. I'm just going to say that. Just a long boarding school excursion in Switzerland, Siberia, something. I think they liked the movie

and I think they could tell, you know, it's not like they were like, boy, the cinematography of Roger Deakins really elevates this movie or whatever. Oh, the man with no name. That's a great, like, but they, they understand quality. I do think they respond to seeing something that's beautiful. That's objectively beautiful on screen the way they did with Wolfwalkers. Like they get it to some degree. There's not like some profoundness that they're not getting that I'm totally getting, but I still don't know if it's connecting with them as thoroughly as, as the among us, you know, blogosphere situation. These are my type of critics, Rob. These are my type of critics.

You can have them. That's an interesting, I think, kind of crux to the question I'm asking you both. Rango is a movie that is ostensibly made for children, but is really a movie made for cinephiles. It's really a movie that just flatters people's sensibilities about identifying the movie references. And in some ways, The Mitchells and the Machines is the same way. The Mitchells and the Machines is absolutely spring-loaded with hundreds of references to other movies and TV shows and internet memes. And so, we're in this really interesting, it's kind of an uncanny valley, forgive the phrase, between a movie that is about what it's meant to be about and a movie that is just about the experience of watching other movies. Rango, one of the reasons why I respond to it, aside from it being beautiful and kind of beautifully acted and just like utterly unafraid to be weird.

It's just a very weird movie. And I liked that it doesn't pull punches in that respect. But, you know, it was a movie when I saw it. I was probably in my early 30s and I was like, wow, they made a super weird gecko movie for me, you know, and I do kind of wonder about the ongoing state of animation that as more and more movies seem to be made for the people who are making them as opposed to for children. Will they lose more and more viewers as they are starting to lose your kids, Rob? It seems possible. I don't know. What do you think, Charles? I mean, I think the funny thing is, is like, are we even getting to a self-referential point where like kids even understand, like, if you look at like Into the

Spider-Verse, even Mitchell's in the Machines, if you look at the animation of it, I think all of us are like, oh, we remember when there was 2D animation and now they're doing this hybrid where it's like, I'm assuming kids who grew up on like Pixar and 2D animation and now they're doing this hybrid where it's like, I'm assuming kids who grew up on like Pixar and like Disney animation stuff, they're just like, we've always been in this world. Like we have never known a world

where 2D was the dominant force. So I think we're getting to a point with like movies and television where it's just like, it's super, like there's so much about Michelle's and the Machines and all these movies where I'm like,

can kids enjoy it on a full level when it's not necessarily speaking directly to them? Like it's a kid's movie, but it's really not. It's like kids and a parent's movie. And I, I guess, but then again, I look at something like TV and we just got off a Renaissancenaissance where you had like Adventure Time and Regular Show and Steven Universe. So like these are complex things for kids. Kids love them. They sold a lot of toys. Teens, I love them. Adults. So I don't know if, I don't know. I think

kids are always going to like cartoons. I more so think there's just so many more of them than ever. And cartoons are just one thing. It's like, all right, I'm going to watch a cartoon for half an hour and then I'm going to go on YouTube for three hours. And then I might watch a movie again with my parents if I have to. So I think that's the difference where it's like Lion King was my whole life. I don't know if like Mitchell's in the machines is going to be a kid's entire life. It's a really good point. One of my objects of fascination is the, at the late stage career animated movie from a well-known cinema master. Like just in the last 10 years,

Steven Spielberg has made the adventures of Tintin and the BFG. And I got to say, I have no clue why he made either of those movies. And I think both of them have things that are interesting about them and things to recommend them. But like, I don't even, I don't know what he figured out about himself or about the filmmaking process even that was fascinating to him. Um, I think

of obviously what Robert Zemeckis has been doing for the last 20 years with the, the kind of motion capture work and like Beowulf and the Polar Express and those films. I mean, those are technically animated movies of a kind. And I genuinely do not know who the Beowulf movie is for. I don't know that Beowulf himself would sit for the Beowulf film. And so I do think that the genre at times is trying to kind of contort itself to determine if it should no longer be made for children. I thought one of the more interesting kind of big hits, frankly, big comedy hits of the last five or 10 years is Sausage Party, which is an animated movie from Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg that is explicitly for adults.

Again, not because it's this story of existential crisis, but because it's just a really dirty movie. Rob, I wonder if your kids are just a few years away from discovering Sausage Party 2. They probably have already watched it and are just careful not to tell me. The whole thing, they watched a bootleg on YouTube. And I got to go back in my search history and see if that's already happened because that's probably already happened. Being a parent right now seems very stressful, Rob. It's awesome. It's fantastic. But do we also think that... I look at, honestly, animation a lot of times, It's awesome. It's fantastic. and I'm not going to do that. So if you're like, I can do a superhero movie where I could do an animated movie and I can like push the boundaries of technology

without maybe having to ask like a streaming service for like a boatload of money, I could see why they're kind of like that to them would be really, really enticing because a lot of my picks or at least one of my picks like was so experimental

that it ended up like inspiring like Christopher Nolan. I do think animation is still one of those mediums where it's just kind of like because people are like this is just for kids you can get some old directors being like we're about to like totally fuck some shit up on no one's looking you're you're totally right about that although one of the things that uh that mike rienda and i talked about is just how long it takes to make these movies i mean he he kind of announced that he was going to make this movie for Sony in 2016. We are four years and 10 months later and the movie finally came out. I mean, that's a long

time. Four years and 10 months ago, I don't even know what the hell I was doing with my life. You know, that's- You were starting a website, if I remember correctly. That is exactly correct. Coming up on that five-year anniversary, actually. Yikes. But anyhow, I'll also say say like if you are an older filmmaker you know if you're gonna throw four years of your life into an animated film that film better work you know there's and there's it's hard to figure out how to make it work and that's something else that mike and i talked about is just like the amount of revision that goes into a movie like this as opposed to shooting a film and you're like well this is what we got on film. These are the performances we got. This is what the explosion looks like. There's no going

back from this. We'll put it out the way that we can. With an animated movie, you can kind of work and work and work. And sometimes I think that's why some of these movies feel so worked over, you know, so revised, so overloaded with jokes and commentary. The simplicity of some of those, especially those 90s Disney movies, which were felt very streamlined, you know, a movie like Beauty and the Beast feels very streamlined. It's very clear what the goal of that movie is, who the key characters are, what the set pieces are. I do feel like we're in a moment where some of this stuff is frantic. Yes. You know what I mean? It's like all those, the Disney Renaissance, like I've been watching some of those movies.

It's very funny how like linear the story is. It's like point A, point B, point C. Mitchell's versus Sheed's is like, they go every which way. Sometimes I'm like, are they still on the track of the story? And it's like, it's like a vibe. It's weirdly kind of like listening

to like a nice playlist. You're like, I don't, I just kind of want to know where they're taking me when the Furby shows up, the big Furby shows up. I'm like, I don't know what this is, it's Zabdin, but I'm here. I'm like, I don't, I just kind of want to know where they're taking me when the Furby shows up, the big Furby shows up. I'm like, I don't know what this is, but I'm here. I'm like, let's go. Yeah. And maybe that speaks to what Rob is saying about the kind of the way that you consume things on the internet, which is you're just clicking around and you're waiting for the

next thing to load. And every consumption pattern is five minutes or less. And so maybe that's kind of what the pace of movies is accurately reflecting right now. I think the way I would put it is we played the original Aladdin, the 1992 Aladdin for the kids. And that's another one that's fairly streamlined and fairly calm almost with the exception of Robin Williams, which is so fantastic. And he pops and he's doing like 10,000 different things at all times. And one way to look at it as a movie like Mitchell's versus the machines, everyone is now Robin Williams. Like it's, it's every, it's that manic intensity, but now it's everywhere. It's every character. It's every frame.

I think that's a good point. Let's, um, let's, let's talk about our lists. Um, we'll, we'll do the round Robin thing. Now we have a lot of crossover here. Cause I think that there are a handful of movies that are understood to not just be the best animated movies, but frankly, the best movies of the last 20 years. So when we get it to someone's film that a number of us have on the list, we'll talk about it all in that one shot. But Charles, why don't we start with you? Why don't we start with your number five? My number five is Paprika, made in 2006, directed by Satoshi Kan. I remember I watched this on cable at my grandparents' house when I still had to watch things on cable,

and I was just completely blown away. I'm like, what is this? This anime? They're in dreams. This is insanity, and the colors are assaulting you. There's so many ideas. It's one of the rare

movies or TV shows that actually feels the way dreams are i think the the common knock against christopher nolan's inception is is this what christopher nolan thinks a dream is like this is just real life and i think like paprika to me was like it showed that something that animation can do that you, in the real world we can't is we can very much simulate the craziness that happens when your head hits that pillow. And that's why it's my number five. I love this movie. Delighted to see this one on your list. This is a great movie if people haven't had a chance to check it out. Rob, what's your number five? My number five is Moana, which was 2016, which is classic Disney or like regular Disney. I don't know.

One piece of advice I can give anybody who's thinking of having kids is when you get to the point of your kids are watching movies, you got to pick movies with tolerable soundtracks. You know what I'm saying? Lest you end up in a Trolls World Tour, K-Hole, lest you end up with the whole Among Us situation, which I'm not going to bring up again, but the soundtrack to Moana is impressively durable. Lin-Manuel Miranda, of course, you got The Rock doing Your Welcome. You got Jemaine Clement as like a David Bowie crab villain type. The rest of the songs are like empowerment, but not hashtag empowerment. It rewards replay as both a movie and as a soundtrack, because if a movie hits kids of a certain age right, you're in for three months of hearing the soundtrack over and over again.

And that's what I think makes Frozen and Frozen 2 also so beloved and so durable. You can hear them over and over and over and still have some affection for it. Almost an accumulation of affection. And that's always been true with Moana for me. That's a real generation bridger too, because Ron Clements, one of the directors of that movie also directed Aladdin and The Little Mermaid and Hercules and Treasure Planet. And he has been a part of that extended Disney family for a long time. Moana, I don't remember honestly having much of a reaction at all to Moana. That felt like a movie that for a weird 30 something sitting alone in a movie

theater on a Thursday, like I was like, why did I do this? Well, it wasn't made for you, Sean. That's probably the answer. I know Rob. Should I have sought out one of my many nephews or nieces to bring to that movie? Probably. I should stop seeming like a serial killer in animated movies. Were you like the only like grown person alone watching Moana? Oh, I've been in that situation so many times, Charles. Like the sadness of my life of going to movies at 11 a.m. on Saturdays and finding myself in a movie theater with 300 children.

It's happened many times. My brother was on a work trip and he went to see Zootopia once and he was the only adult, childless adult. And he was like, that was a really weird situation. It's like, why did you do that to yourself? Another great movie that's basically about movies, by the way.

Basically a Bogart movie. I love Zootopia, but it did not make my list because we are in a weird place with the police. You know what I'm saying? Hashtag Black Lives Matter. Stand up. So I had to strike the Zootopia from the list. Zootopia from Zootopia being copaganda did not see that coming on this harsh but you know what I understand I I respect

it uh my number five is Rango I already talked about Rango I've been talking about Rango every goddamn day um love this movie it's not it's not at the top uh for a variety of reasons there's a handful of movies that are I feel ultimately achieve more Rango in many ways feels like a Lark for most of the people involved. Um, and it feels like a movie that Verbinski got to make because he made three pirates of the Caribbean movies and just supplied an endless amount of capital to the Disney corporation. Um, and so he got to experiment, he got to try some things he always wanted to do, but it's a movie that is um like i said before is just completely unafraid to be itself you know i think a lot of kids movies feel like desperate for approval and rango is not really looking for anybody's approval except for like a bunch of bloggers

and it got it frankly i blogged the shit out of rango so uh if you haven't seen that movie i recommend you check it out that is super wild for a director to be like, to get a blank check. And they're like, I'm making my animated movie now. I'm like, no, no, no, don't waste this blank check. I mean, it wouldn't be the last time if you guys have never seen a cure for wellness, which is a movie that Verbinski made three or four years ago. Also, just a deeply disturbing and bizarre and incredible blank check kind of a movie. Okay, let's go to Charles,

your number four, which is also on my list. What is your number four? My number four. I got to go. I think there's the only, there's the only Pixar on my list, but 2007's Ratatouille by Brad Bird.

Oh man. Who knew when I watched this, who knew when I was a kid that I would go down the road of a critic. Okay. I like, and I'm looking, ever since I watched this movie the road of a critic. Okay. I like, and I'm looking, I, ever since I watched this movie and I became a critic in the world,

I'm looking for my own metaphorical rat to come and to, to, to delight me, to show me that I can love art again. This movie was incredible. It was incredible. Like what more can I say? Like the way they animated food in this movie,

the lessons that you learn about following your dreams. this might be pixar's peak honestly after this it was downhill from there it was downhill for me sorry guys right at tuli first of all the kid cuddy shot can't go uh unacknowledged that i don't know if you heard that charles but he just rob just slid that in under you you know what did you said while i was on my oh i was uh on my kanye ranting what did i say i said that kid cuddy was your uh food making rat no it would be bryson tiller to be honest with you okay now you know you know yourself i'll yeah or tyler the creator yeah sorry rob we're firmly in Save It for the Ringer Music Show pod territory here. Ratatouille is my number two movie. I wanted to just choose one representative movie from the Pixar canon. Obviously, Rob, you and I have talked about this a bunch on this show in

the past. Love these movies. I think Inside Out or WALL-E or Toy Story 3 or any number of movies that have been released from them in the last 20 years could slide into this spot. But, and again, I was in a slightly different position than you were, Charles, when I saw this, which is to say I was an active critic. I was literally writing about music for a living when I saw Anton Ego on screen. And I was like, holy shit, this movie is actually paying attention to something that is interesting to me, that feels meaningful to me. And some might say that was just the sop to critics to get them to like this movie just a little bit more and maybe a savvy move by Brad Bird. On the other hand, I think the movie is really about passion, right? It's really about following your dreams. It's really about connecting

with something and saying, I want to devote my life to this. I want to make my passion, my work and my work, my passion. And I mean, how could look at the three of us doing this incredibly weird podcast? How can we not relate to that? This is pure passion. So, um, that's number two for me, Rob, why don't we go to your number four? Anton Ego is such a good character name for that character. That really is fantastic. Uh, my number four is Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse. I, we had my kids, we had sort of a false start with Marvel, right? Like the kids at school were talking Black Panther and they got really interested in Marvel. And it's like, what Marvel movie do we play for them?

When you decided on Thor Ragnarok, don't ask me how we arrived there. And they seem to enjoy it. But then my son periodically will remind me of the time Cate Blanchett stabbed a dude in Thor Ragnarok. Like it freaked them out. Like we went in too hot, I guess.

And so Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse is like the superhero movie that we all watched in theaters and that my son liked enough to want to have a Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse themed birthday party. I believe he was eight. He was eight or he was nine.

We got a bunch of flavored popcorn. We put like 12 kids in the basement and projected Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse and the walls. And they were, they were like climbing the walls physically, these children while the parents all huddled upstairs. It was a fantastic experience, obviously,

but I, I, yeah, it's the other thing about that movie that I appreciated as that Jake Johnson made for a great sort of schlub Spider-Man. Perfect casting. That's one of my favorite voice castings. And that's also important.

The Hotel Transylvania movies, for example, are not art on the Rango tier. But I can sit and listen to Adam Sandler vamp for an hour and a half and really enjoy myself. And so the voice acting, I think, is an underrated part of what makes Spider-Verse so durable for me. So this is my number one.

And this is Charles's number two. So this is obviously a movie and maybe a little bit of recency bias on our parts. But honestly, I felt like this movie, it blew my mind when I saw it. I think I had no expectations. I just did not think I was getting something like this that was going to basically shatter the template of what an animated movie could look and feel like. But it really did do that. Rihanna actually talked about it too, and we discussed it. And he was just like, this is one of the game changers of all game changers.

Obviously, it's a superhero movie, Rob, like you say, and it's a movie about young people, and it's a movie with great vocal performances. But from a purely technical perspective, you can see that Lord and Miller, and obviously the other, the directors of the film as well, who are Bob Parashketty and Peter Ramsey and Rodney Rothman, they just like, they didn't break the mold. They like threw out the idea of a mold altogether. You know, the movie really does not follow any conventions whatsoever, narratively, the way that it sounds, the way that it looks. Certainly, it's using familiar characters that are exciting for us. I'm sure for Charles and I in particular, if you grew up caring about Spider-Man, watching the way that it toys with the mythology of Spider-Man and pulls at its elasticity was really exciting

to see. But just from a pure visual movie nerd perspective, I don't think there's been a movie that has taken my breath away quite the way that this one has. Charles, what is it about it for you? I think it's twofold. I think because I'm a fan of animation, you can point to certain movies and you're like, this movie changed everything. When we talk about the anime movie Akira, you're like, to this day, music, movies, TV, people are still aping Akira. Toy Story, that is a movie that fundamentally just changed an entire, like Lion King, all of these things. And I think visually, when you watch Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse, they are doing so many different things with animation

that almost, when you listen to like the animators and directors almost broke everybody's brains they're like we don't know if we can pull it off like that is we got so many comic book movies but they were still movies and spider-man into the spider-verse is like the first movie that to me is like truly like what it is to read a comic book as a kid and it feels like. It has this experience to it. And I saw this movie, I think, two or three times in theaters, and I cried every single time

at the same moment when Miles Morales finally puts on the suit, flips off the building, and you realize he can be Spider-Man. I don't know what it was emotionally about this, but there are very few times I cry as a grown man now, but like watching Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse and realizing like this little boy can do anything.

And like hearing, hearing Spider-Man Parker in his head, like you can do this miles. Oh man, it's, it's the peak. It's the peak of animated cinema. It's so wonderful.

Different kind of a peak or maybe sort of an emotional nadir for me is my number four which is it's a movie called it's such a beautiful day which i've talked about a couple of times on this show i don't know if you guys have ever had a chance to see this i think if you are in a particularly vulnerable point in your lives don't watch it uh it's directed by a man named don hertz, who's probably the single most celebrated independent animation force in the world right now. Um, he does not work for Disney. He does not work for, uh, Fox or, or DreamWorks or any of these companies.

He's not made a Marvel movie. He's basically made his own projects. He, the one mainstream thing he did is he created one title sequence for one episode of the Simpsons, which is an extremely phantasmagoric and fascinating title sequence. It's such a beautiful day. It's certainly the most simplistic animation of all the films on our list. It's basically about a one stick man,

a stick drawing named bill who gets a difficult diagnosis from the doctor at the beginning of this tale, and then repels into existential despair. And it is a truly traumatic, but also kind of thrilling movie. Hertzfeld kind of collides the simplicity of the

animation with all of these kind of like overlays, sense of atmosphere, and doom, and color, and then also this classical music of these kind of like overlays sense of atmosphere and doom and color and then also this classical music these sort of um 15 16 17 century uh classical compositions to give the movie this incredible operatic breath and it's a movie that is um very rewarding if you give it the time it deserves rob do not again do not sit with your children for this one. But if you want to watch someone really trying to grapple with what it means to be alive, this is, I think, one of the truest and most honest portrayals of that that I've ever seen in a movie.

And it's the kind of thing that really could only be done in an animated movie. You couldn't have an actor do the things and live inside of the kind of world that the character that Hertzfeld creates here does do. And so I just, I think it's like one of the signature accomplishments, not just in the genre, but in all movie making. I'm sitting here planning my son's 11th birthday party, which will be, it's such a beautiful day themed. We're just going to put that in the basement and just lock 12 kids in there and just have a drink and see what happens. Just see what existential crises arise. I would not even recommend it for his 79th birthday. I'm never going to watch that movie. It's a lovely, lovely

touting of it. And yeah, forget it. Thanks, Rob. Charles, let's go to your number three. What do you got? Something a little different than it's such a beautiful day. Yeah, you know. Thanks, Rob. You got it. Charles, let's go to your number three. What do you got? Something a little different than It's Such a Beautiful Day. Yeah, you know. Every time, every time everybody asks me for a list, I'm throwing a little something to throw people off, you know? At the Midnight Boys corner, they're still mad at me about my age of Ultron takes, you know? The music people are still mad at me for saying

Fall Out Boy has one of the best podcasts of all time. Ridiculous list. And for this, this is my sneak choice. My number three lilo and stitch 2002 directed by chris sanders and uh dean de blois uh man man lilo and stitch what can i say it was the end of an era watching it movie theaters because i knew even in my little like my little preteen brain i'm like we're not getting any more 2d movies man this ship has sailed and if we could get one last one lilo and stitch is a great one to go off stitch is so cute he's a demon monster

and it was like this you could tell it's almost kind of like the emperor's new groove in a way where you can tell like disney and the execs had kind of let their hand off the wheel for a bit and like all of the animators are like we're to get like a little kind of dirty and we're going to make some characters that you don't actually really like that much. And like Stitch is not like for the first couple, like, you know, at least the first hour, he's not very likable. He's an asshole. And he's just going around destroying everything. And you had never really seen that in a Disney movie. They all had to kind of be redeemable and sell plushes and all these things. And I think you got like this movie that is just like, Disney characters can be, can be bad and then they can be good. You're blowing my mind, man. So I'm going to go watch Lilo and Stitch.

It is great. And I also think it's like probably the perfect example of a movie Sean and Rob are way too old to watch. They're just like, what are you talking about? I have never seen this movie. Um, it is an important movie though. In the recent animated canon, I guess, because Chris Anderson, Dean de Blois did go on to make how to train your dragon,

which is one kind of franchise that we haven't really talked about here, but that I know has a lot of hardcore fans. And speaking of Deacons, that is a movie that he has also advised on. Um, and that trilogy of movies, I think is among the more celebrated non Pixar, non Disney division. And I don't really know what happened with Sanders and de Blois,

why they didn't kind of stay in the Disney family. But I wonder if it's what you're suggesting, Charles, which is like they were breaking some rules while nobody was looking and they kind of maybe got shuttled out for being not quite as tender hearted as some of the stories need to be to kind of pass muster over there. Um, maybe I'll watch Lilo and Stitch on Disney plus this weekend. Hey, I'll watch Rango. There we go. There we go. Love to share. That's beautiful. This is delightful. Rob, why don't you share your number three? My number three is Wolf walkers uh which i think is one of the best uh movie

watching experiences i've had with my kids uh in covid lockdown you know my wife used to work at an animation studio that worked on space jam and then yeah yes yes get out of here rob i'm saying and i it pivoted i think that's how that's this studio made'm saying. And it pivoted. I think that's how this studio made its fortune. And then it pivoted mostly to Disney sequels like Little Mermaid 2 and 101 Dalmatians 2, which was a bad title. Married to royalty. There's still a ton of craft involved in those movies,

but my wife still reacts to something like Wolfwalkers. It's something so beautiful and hand-drawn. That scene of just the wolf mother with the red hair around her and then the wolves all surrounding her, that's still sort of imprinted on my brain. And that's another one like Rango where my kids didn't articulate it as such, but you can tell that it was different and they could tell that it was different and there was a different perspective and a little more quality brought to it. And so that's it. And again, I want to go back to the other two movies that Tom Moore has made. I think those are all on Apple TV now, but it's, that's, that was one of the revelations of, of our last year of movie watching for me. Absolutely.

That's a really good one. Um, I haven't been able to get Amanda to watch Wolfwalkers. So we, we, we haven't had a chance get amanda to watch wolfwalkers so really we haven't had a chance to really spotlight it on this show but um how long did spider verse take though that was like a year and a half campaign that yeah and there was like some maybe under the table bribery involved there appreciate that film but nevertheless um so my number three is a movie that we're all going to talk about in a minute. So I want to hold it. Um, so why don't we go to, uh, your, so, and Charles, your number two is Spider-Man.

It's the Spider-Verse. So Rob, why don't we go directly to your number two? My number two is Coco. You know, I wanted one Pixar, just like you guys, just one representative Pixar. And this is the one for me. And that's probably down to just remember me, probably just the end of the movie. You know, that's the most emotional reaction I've had, I think, to a movie in the last five years.

And again, I think that my kids responded to it as well. The Pixar movies that have aged the best for me and for us, like WALL-E, I think a lot about. I think, you know, the kids loved Up, which they hadn't seen. Like, I think we've seen all the Pixar movies now and I'm sort of curious, I'm trying to figure out what their favorites are. And I think they might tilt toward Cars a little bit, you know, like they're not necessarily going for the direct midlife crisis type movies yet, as you said. But I think Coco is a good middle ground where it's sort of this madcap adventure story

and it's so colorful, you know, and it's so musical and it's so bright, but there's a real emotional depth to it, you know? And that's a movie where I can be sitting next to my kids and sort of crying and not feel like I'm watching a different movie than they were watching. So Coco, of course is wonderful. And Coco feels very much in keeping with the last movie that we'll all talk

about here. I, so my number two was Ratatouille. So we don't need to talk about that either. Um, and my number three is, is both of your number ones. It's a spirited away.

Hey, Miyazaki is just out now masterpiece uh and and when i was re-watching it i did think of coco a lot because that is another movie that essentially takes place in the spirit world you know and that i think is is able to kind of um explicate some of the cultural differences in a way that I think made it very legible to American audiences. You know, the fact that there's this kind of tradition in Japanese culture, this is sort of folkloric tradition of spirit cultures

that the film takes pains to kind of illuminate, but also expand upon and kind of redefine. Likewise, Coco does the same for Mexican culture. But the thing with Spirited Away for me is it's very similar to a lot of my other favorites, which is like, this is a movie that is totally unbound. Like it is just totalizing vision. It is one person obviously collaborating with his team who sees the world in a completely different way and is able to literally put that down on paper and make you see it the way that he sees it. And Miyazaki's vision of the world through

this little girl's eyes as she is experiencing this basically traumatic episode, this separation from her parents, and then this journey from childhood into adulthood is one of the most amazing pictures of adolescence that I've ever seen in a movie. In addition to being beautiful and funny and incredibly strange at times. Charlesles what is it about spirited away that clicks with you um it's just obviously it's the beauty of the animation but i think the thing that i love about miyazaki is that he is he is an old man who like his best movies whether it's like kiki's delivery service or totoro or whatever is like the thing that the kids are missing in this generation is hard work and that like like every one of his movies is like the thing that the kids are missing in this generation is hard work and that like every one of his movies is like little girl goes to a town and realizes she has to work hard to see her

parents again and i'm just like you you crazy kook and i just i love spirited away because it is it is kind of like the perfect ideal of a miazaki movie. It doesn't necessarily make sense if you just look at the script. It doesn't make sense if you just look at the animation. But if you take the animation, you take the script, you take the music, and you just let it wash over you, you're like, oh, finally, I get something new about life. And watching the movie, I realized that it also weirdly encapsulates this moment. I'm still very young, but I remember the first time I really understood my parents as adults was when I had like a job. My first job was like I had a janitor at my old middle school during the summers.

And I came home and I was sweaty. People were mean to me. And I was just like, oh, this is why my parents aren't always nice all the time. This is why my parents aren't like the all the time this is why my parents aren't like the ideal of what i want them to be all the time because life is suffering and you have to work and then you have work friends and you pal around because you're all miserable and then if you're miserable enough you understand something fundamentally about your parents and i've watched this twice during the pandemic and And each time I'm like,

capitalism is suffering. I love Miyazaki. I love Spirited Away. I can't talk about this movie. That is, I mean, that is a core theme of the movie though. It's obviously a reflection of this like 80s and 90s industrialism that was happening in Japan, much like it was happening in the United States, this kind of like go, go, go wealth culture. And it's totally reflecting on that in an overt way, I think. I think that's not an overread at all. Rob, what about for you? What do you like about Spirited Away? You guys are my work friends, you know, and there's no misery to this process at all. I just want to make that clear. This is another movie like the best of Pixar, where I really wish I could crawl into my kids' heads and like see it the way they're seeing it and get out of

it what they're getting out of it. Just her on the train, right? That image that you've seen on Twitter 50,000 times. And there's just such a soulful, sad, beautiful quality to it. And I want to experience exactly how that's washing over my kids. Far and away, this is the best, single best movie going experience I've had of, of not going to movies of, of, of COVID lockdown. You know, right before COVID lockdown, we had, we went and saw Howl's Moving Castle at like a boutique theater. Oh, cool. And that was their first, that was their first Miyazaki. And, and that they, they responded

to it well enough that we went on a many run, you know, when it hit HBO Max, we did Ponyo, we did Toto we did totoro which is still my favorite like my personality is based on totoro you know that's that's aspirationally at least like i just i just want to just lie around and have like a giant disconcerting smile and sort of bounce from place to place and like not be around a whole lot you know that's this is what i'm going for as a person. Seeing a concert with you, Rob is a lot like standing beside. Yes.

With the umbrella. Yes, exactly. Yes. Wait, how tall are you, Rob? Six,

four, six, four. Wow. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's just under the weird bar.

Any taller, it would be weird, but it's totally normal. Thank you. That's the nicest thing you could ever say about it. This is why you're my work friend, Charles. You know me so well. Yeah, it's just, it's unbound is exactly the way to describe it.

And I just, it was just wild to just watch my kids. You know, my wife is wrapped by it, of course. And I love that. But just my kids being bombarded by pure imagination, you know, it's just a very cool, you know, it's not a tangible feeling, but it's a feeling nonetheless. And I didn't scare them as a kid.

I would have surprised, like there are a couple of moments. I'm just like, this is so existential. And it's about like this small girl who's like afraid and on a train. Like I'd be right. That is a good question. Cause you know,

I've avoided, for example, like Coraline, which a lot of people talk about are like the nightmare before christmas and it's like i haven't watched those movies in years and so i couldn't say whether that's going to scare them especially after they sort of dropped out of marvel you know sort of rattled by it and so i was wondering that but the answer is no you know i i do think that they were emotionally reacting and were sort of a little frightened in those moments but like we didn't have to turn it off the way we had to turn off you know i i do think that they were emotionally reacting and were sort of a little frightened

in those moments but like we didn't have to turn it off the way we had to turn off black panther oh interesting that was too much i it's just the fighting like it's even marvel style fighting like any kind of shooting or slashing at all it is really weird like they were into it and then they backslid you know and i respect that and like you know five years from now i'm gonna never want to watch another one of those movies again but it is very odd like we thought about guardians of the galaxy is the first one and then didn't do that and maybe we should have like maybe we onboarded poorly but yeah we're just we're not there and that's fine with me uh do you guys have any honorable mentions? You know, Rob, you just mentioned Coraline.

We haven't talked about Laika Studios and the incredible stop motion animation. I think Kubo and the Two Strings was like right on the outside of my list as well. Those two movies I think are the best from that studio. I like Paranorman too as a horror movie fan. We've talked through some of the ones that I really like a lot that were just on the outside. Fantastic Mr. Fox, for example, or Anomalisa, or

Chicken Run, or Inside Out. Charles, anything that you want to shout out before we close? The one I want to shout out, I actually want to get Rob Sun, his critic brain on this. What was his thoughts, his music critic thoughts on the Ponyo song? Ponyo, Ponyo, Ponyo, Ponyo

by Lizzy. I love that song. Can you sing a little more of it? Please do not sing anymore. Did that get a best new music in the house? I love that song. They absolutely 8.8 for Ponyo. That's what I like to see. Ponyo did seem to be like one of the more kid centered ones.

Like that was the one we did after Totoro. Like that felt like the right progression and then end with Spirited Away. The sort of mini run we had. I wish I could visit the Heartville household. Like this sounds so much fun. You're welcome here. You're welcome here anytime. Double features.

Miyazaki. Come on. We can watch the terrible movie Sean talked about. The existential crisis one. You know, that we can cook up some popcorn and just all cry, you know, together. Sounds fantastic. 8.8 is actually in wolf Parade territory, I would say. I feel like Wolf Parade would be a great Miyazaki movie. You should consider that. Right. Wolf Walkers, Wolf Parade crossover.

You're onto something here. Absolutely. Thanks, Rob. Rob, Charles, thank you so much for doing this. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate you guys sharing your spirits and mocking my choices as always. You can hear Rob on 60 Songs Explained in the 90s. You can hear Charles on The Ringer Music Show and on The Midnight Boys on The Ringerverse. See you guys soon. Now let's go to my conversation by Mike Rihanna.

Mike, how are you? I'm wonderful. Thank you for having me. I love this podcast. That's really cool, man. I loved your movie, The Mitchells vs. The Machines. It's such an interesting project because it feels at once completely movie-obsessed, like we are on this show and also very personal and

intimate and you know it what jumped out to me when i was re-watching it last night is one of the first things that katie says is movies were always there for me and i i assume that that's coming straight from your heart maybe you could tell me a little bit about kind of how you fell in love with movies in the first place yeah no it was it that is really close to i think all of us that worked on the movie uh it's like you know how the the the teenage mutant ninja turtles were created with mutagen yes i think the mutagen that creates animators is like childhood loneliness so i spent a lot of days with nobody around um And it was like, and just like, you know, the Simpsons and Ren and Stimpy and like later,

like Wes Anderson movies. Like I watched Bottle Rocket one summer. I watched Bottle Rocket every night. And I told Mark Mothersbaugh about that. And he was like horrified. He's like, he's like, I like that movie, but don't watch it every night. So, you know, cause I really do feel like, I like that movie, but don't watch it every night. Um, so, you know, cause it, I really do feel like, you know, I I'm really sort of dewy eyed and idealistic about the power

of, you know, movies and art to sort of a corny extent. Um, and because it really has, like, I remember watching, I watched the movie that, uh, Mike, uh, the movie that Mike, the movie beginners. And, and it's like, I immediately started calling my grandma and like, Oh my God, you know, this is important. And I've just watched a lot of things over the course of my life that I really feel like changed my life. And I'm like, if it changed my life, you can change other people's lives. So I'm, I'm, I'm really sort of excited about the ability to, to be able to make people like feel less alone with movies um because because they certainly did that for me when i was a kid can you tell me about getting into animation and how you actually make that leap because it feels like it's more challenging

in some ways than the typical especially now the sort of like just pick up a camera and go make something with your friends yeah it's i mean it's's wild. It's one of the reasons, because I've been asked in interviews and stuff like, oh, this movie is kind of pro-tech, but kind of anti-tech. And it couldn't be anything but pro-technology, because it's like, that is how I discovered my passion in life. You know, I would go on like Ren and Stimpy chat rooms, which sounds horrible today. There's some problematic elements of that. But at the time, it was very normal. Or it wasn't normal, but it was really

engaging. And there were actual cartoonists that were in there that would deign to answer my questions. And I was like, this guy is real. He's a real person and he's doing it. Maybe I can do it. And, and I sort of found, and I really did sort of like find my people online, these like, you know, cartoon loving lunatics like me, um, and sort of like, and I downloaded, you know, flash, um, and I was just so like excited about the possibilities of it. And it all came from sort of, came from sort of being online. And, and, and, and also being online was a place where I found out about the history of animation. And I was like, Oh, these great Bob clamp it, you know,

Warner brother shorts and these text, every shorts that I love. And, and there's this really obscure Fleischer brothers thing, you know? So, and I had a, this is the darkest thing in the world. I had a Rod Scribner tribute sites on like members.zoom.com or whatever. And, and it was like, you know, and I interviewed cartoonists through, you know, the internet and stuff like that. So, so it really was like through the internet that I sort of that I was able to see this as a viable

career path, even though my mom was like, don't use your real name. Don't let those cartoon weirdos know who you are. She might have been right to be skeptical, but they all seem nice. I've actually talked to some of them since in the school, the Lake Reckoning.

Was it hard to crack in, though, to actually get into this as a professional? It was brutally hard. Like, it's really difficult. And also, it's just like, it's really competitive. And, you know, I went to CalArts, which is like where all the great Pixar guys went. And it's a really wonderful school, but I got rejected the first time I applied and I was just like broken

because I was so like, give me the cartoon jobs world. And they were like, no, you're terrible. So I got rejected from that. I sort of had to like work extra hard. And I feel like that element of Katie is very much like me of just like sort of being relentlessly creative because you feel like you're not quite as talented or something. So you're like, how do I really gin things up? You know? And just with the movie in general too, it's, it's sort of like, I feel like it's the product of somebody who was like,

at one point I was, we were making the movie and one of my friends watched it like it's the product of somebody who's like at one at one point i was we were making the movie and one of my friends watched it he's like mike you can calm down like you don't need to like prove you're funny every 30 seconds because at certain points there were like no it was just joke on joke on joke and the emotional stuff was sort of not as well-tuned um you know and we sort of were able to tweak that and stuff even though that was always important to the movie it it sometimes got lost in like a manic desire to prove that we're funny or something it's funny i was thinking about something that you posted five years ago on on your tumblr when you were telling me about being

on message boards as a kid growing up you On June 26, 2016, you wrote... Ooh, that's a date. I'm excited. You wrote, here's a preview of my next project. I'm writing and directing an animated movie in development at Sony Pictures Animation. It's a sci-fi comedy road movie that's based on my own crazy, delightful family, etc., etc. We're trying really hard to make a different kind of animated movie that's new and fresh and hilarious and crazy and great. That's almost five years ago. Yes. So that's something that,

you know, some filmmakers can make one movie, maybe even two movies a year. If you're someone like Steven Soderbergh, but this movie took almost five years to make. Can you like, maybe talk me through what some of that experience was like over time? Well,

we're no Soderbergh. No, it was, it was it was I mean a big part of it was just the like pitching and development developing process because I mean you know god bless Sony for believing in the movie um you know my boss Christine Bellson who runs Sony Animation always loved the movie and was always like trying to lead the charge. But it was like, we really had to prove ourselves in a way that if we were, if we had a superhero in the movie, we wouldn't, it would just, you know, those movies just like on the track you go, you know, release it in under two years. Um, and because we were this like scrappy group of maniacal film students,

we had to just like fight the whole time. And for example, like, you know, if a movie is being, you know, if a movie is like, you know, on the sort of like a Marvel track or something, it's sort of like they just green light it and then do the script. We had to like have a polished, beautiful script

before they would even let us hire an artist. You know, and then once we did that, we had to, once we had the polished, beautiful script before they would even let us hire an artist you know and then once we did that we had to once we had the polished beautiful script we had to make an animatic that was like 10 out of 10 great that played for an audience like we had to do a test screening before they would even consider making the movie um and that was actually when chris and phil saw it chris miller and phil saw it. And who are like my, you know, cartoon heroes.

And they were like, like the fact that they watched it, I was like, Hey, we're done. Pack it up. They watched it. I think they liked it.

And then they were like, what was it that they watched though? Like what did they, what were they actually seeing? They were, they watched it. It's just an early version of the movie. And it,

interestingly, I rewatched it and it's, it's the exact same beats it's just not as good like it's it's like the same structure but we just made it better since then um and a lot of the same jokes like the furby was in there you know like a lot of the same moves are in there but they just weren't as refined you know because i think chris and phil sort of saw us you know the the me and jeff pro who's my co-director and co-writer um who's amazing um he's they sort of saw us as like oh these kids they know how to tell a joke they know how to do emotions like this seems this seems good like we can only help them um because they were like can we executive produce your movie and i was like like, yeah, Chris Miller, that would be fine. No problem. Um, so, uh,

so that, that was really wonderful. And they, and then when they came on for a while, they were working on spider verse and Lego movie too. And they were like our cool uncles that we're trying to get to come to our like little league game. Like maybe they'll come this week, you know, and they'd go by and there's Spider-Verse Ferrari, like, Oh yes, we added new jokes to scene 300. They're like, we'll watch them next week. But, but, but really when they, when they actually, when they actually like engaged, when those projects were kind of wrapping, they really engaged in a way that was really cool and they really helped us.

It was like going to cartoon grad school or something. They really helped us bring the movie up because it was like, I feel like we were stuck at a certain place and then they were really able to give us some moves. And most of them ended up being, you know, I come from TV and I sort of had this disease.

I don't know. But it was like not like feature. I would hold on to anything that worked. I was like, can't touch it. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. We could beat it. Let's try this. Try this.

Try this. Try this. And then as soon as we got in that attitude, things started getting better because it was like you just have to let some things die to, you know, to make them be better. Do you have to be unusually patient in this line of work? Because I think about what I was doing five years ago, and it's pretty darn different than what I'm doing right now. And you've been living with this, and it's been like a, you know,

I assume the single most important professional thing you've ever been a part of, but it's taken years. Yes. No, it's like I was working weekends, 15 hour days for the entire time, but maniacally. And that's actually one of the reasons why I made it about my family is I

know how hard these movies are. So I was like, I will never stop. There's like a furnace of love burning for my insane family in my chest. And I was like, I will never stop. There's like a furnace of love burning for my insane family in my chest. And I was like, that will never go out. So like in the times when it's hard, I will be able to like draw on that. Because you do have to be incredibly patient because every decision in the movie is under a microscope. There was a long time where this sort of like eye of the studio like you

know the eyesore on or something like that's that's mean because the studio is really great they let us do all the stuff we wanted to do um but that where the studio is sort of looking at other things and we were just kind of this ragtag you know bad news bears group of people who had never done a movie before and just sort of off in the corner making our thing and then but then when when the studio sort of engaged, you know, because they put a lot of money into these things, you know, they, every moment is looked at. So there's a lot of the job that's also just kind of being a salesman,

you know, and sort of being like, we're doing this because of that. And, you know, I know it seems crazy that there's a Furby shouting, you know, Balrog sounds from Lord of the Rings, but we think it's funny. And, and you sort of have to just sell, sell that stuff to everyone. So it is exhausting, but it was, it was wonderful. That was another cool thing about Chris and Phil is like, you know, movie producers are supposed to kind of be like jail wardens or something, you know, they're like supposed to like

kind of keep the artists in check and make sure the budgets don't go crazy. And they were like crooked wardens that were like, hey, here's the keys, go nuts. And because they sort of, they loved all the weird stuff that we're bringing to it and sort of gave us permission to do that stuff. Whereas the studio would sort of,

I think on their own might be a little more skeptical without those guys giving up. I read that they helped you. They basically indicated that the animation should feel more like drawing than like this uncanny Valley animation, which is obviously so like, what is that? Can you explain that and kind of like clarify what that means to kind of

change the look of the film? Yeah, no, I mean, because it's like all of, you know, like I think people are used to what animated movies look like and they're beautiful,

but they're like, yeah, yeah, that's what people look like. That's what they look like. Whatever. Um, and it was funny.

Uh, the, one of the guys who worked on spider verse was this like very intense European man. And he's like, he's like, forget these anime. I don't know if you could swear,

but it's like, forget these animated films. I want the world to look like it's on fire and i was like i like this guy how do we get more of that energy into the movie um because we that you know i had a check box on the wall that was as dumb as that that was like make the movie look visually stunning and use animation in new ways and then i would just show that to the artists, like, how are we going to do it? And the team was really amazing. And so we basically, our production designer, Lindsay Oliveras was, is brilliant and did these really wonderful illustrations that, that had so much detail in them and were so observed. And they felt like when you looked at the house that she drew,

it's like, oh, that's like my cousin's house growing up. Or I went there, you know, I could imagine being in that house and I know what the carpet smells like. And we love that quality of like observation. And it's kind of a quality that you could only get in a drawing because it's a human is making all those decisions. It's what is a what does a chair feel like and they're sort of drawing all that stuff and we were just trying not to lose all that sort of all that in the movie because the movie's about humans and about their flaws and we wanted that like humanity like reflected on every frame of the screen um so we and luckily amazingly it was like we inherited like the 95 bulls because we got the spider-verse team and it's just like hey you have uh jordan rodman and pip and go nuts and they're and like they're all beaked up from doing spider-verse and they're and i was like

well we want the movie to look like an illustration and then mike glasper our bfx supervisor like great what else he got you know punches a hole in the wall um he's like so fired up um and and we i was like could not be more excited to have that team and then they just sort of you know are wizards and figured out a way to take these illustrations that we did and match them one to one in cg and it was very difficult and i can only try to begin to describe how they did it. I was wondering, one of the other things I really like about it is it's blending like tropes and media from the internet into the film. And I've never really seen that done specifically in an animated movie in this way. Was that something that you had written into the script or something that as you were kind of like refining and moving along,

when did that idea come into play? I mean, it was actually from the beginning. It was like, that was like one of those beaked up conversations early on in the movie, like they're letting us make a movie. We could have writing on the screen and we can have like drawings and stuff and it'll be mixed media. And I don't know how yet, you know, and it was just like sort of an idea that we got excited about and then but it didn't really actually make sense for the movie for a long time because the movie was just like in the beginning the movie just didn't work and it took a long time you know two years or something to just get the movie to a place where it's like all right we feel like all the beats work and the characters work and all this stuff and it's like it's getting laughs and that's that sort of thing. And then once it was working, we're like, okay, now we can actually, we have a little bit of time to try to experiment with this stuff and see if it actually has a place in the movie. able to justify it and be like oh it's kind of like she's editing the film and then we realized

when it when the when that mixed media stuff was like reflecting her character it actually made the movie come alive and it made her come alive more as a character um and we tried other stuff that was just like hot dogging and doing dumb stuff for to do dumb stuff and it kind of fell out of the movie because it wasn't like attached to a character um so it was like so to answer your question in the longest humanly way possible it was like three years in wow okay when you say something doesn't work and you've said that a couple of times now especially in the first two years the movie doesn't work what like what's an example of that what's something that wasn't working that you unlocked? Yeah, totally. That's a great question. It's like, for example, like the beginning of the movie, I would say in the early phases of the movie, the beginning of the movie didn't work.

And when the beginning of the movie doesn't work, you're dead. The whole you just you're watching it and you're bored the whole time. um and the thing one thing that sort of made it work was um we needed to have a believable conflict between rick and katie because the way it used to be is they were just arguing and it was it was sort of um grading the whole time it's like it was just watching two people argue with each other and it was like truly painful to watch. And, and the thing that we sort of found out was like, you should know this as, as writers, but you sort of have to relearn it all the time. But, but it's that if you don't,

if you don't fully understand where Rick is coming from and you don't fully understand where Katie's coming from, you're either on one side or the other and and you you you're just like if you're too much on katie's side you're like get out of there run away from home this man is poison or and if you're too much on rick's side you're like this girl is being a pain in the ass just just go along with the trip and be nice to your dad um so we we had this moment where he accidentally breaks their laptop um and in in test audiences, people gasp and we're like, whoa, I guess it's working. Um, but, um, but it, it, it, and that sort of just, it fully, you fully understand how

bad the dad felt. Cause like he wasn't intent, he was trying to watch it. He's like, look, I'll watch it. It'll be fine. And then they're like having this tug of war. And you also understand how furious you would be if your dad literally shattered your laptop and how that like it creates

a real rift um that like you as an audience feel in a hot way like this needs to be fixed um and before we had that the beginning of the movie just was very dry and stale um and you you sort of were like,

you were definitely on Katie's side and you're like, or you're, I mean, you were, you definitely hated Rick, um, in a way that was like poisonous. You mentioned that you're,

you're the movie is pro tech, but do you, do you actually foster a fear of impending AI takeover? Absolutely. I feel like, I feel like the movie is like 20% ha-ha funny jokes and 80% me talking to children like, listen, kids, watch it. Watch your ass.

They're coming. Because, you know, it's... I do think, you know, because we've read a lot of books about... A lot. We've read like four books. But, you know... More than one. And we went to Caltech and, you know, cause I, we read a lot of books about a lot. We read like more than one thing. And we went to Caltech and,

and, you know, talk to people who worked in robotics and stuff. And, and I do think it's, it's, I do think it's, there are with all technology.

It's like, I don't, and we try to sort of reflect this in the movie. It's like, I don't think any of these people are, have bad intentions. I just think that like corporations and companies uh end up having bad intentions through bad incentive structures

you know where it's like oh we have to be first to market so maybe we'll cut a few corners like that's how all of the people who say there's going to be some sort of ai takeover say it will happen because the corporations will be tried. Because if you are the first to market on like really functional AI, you can like run the world. Um, and it would make sense that you would, if you're close and you wouldn't safety check it as much as you probably should, because you want to be the first one because you want to get all the money. Um, and, and and so we always try to blame corporations and not people even though you know there's some goofballs in charge of some of these companies

um i was thinking about two ways in which technology is probably immensely important for your movie specifically one obviously it seemed like you had to finish the movie during the covid19 pandemic and i i assume you guys were working mostly over Zoom to kind of like do notes and talk about how to go forward. Like, what was that experience like? Was it radically different than being in person on an animated film? Yeah. I mean, it was, we were very lucky in that we were, we were ending this giant push right before the lockdown. And we sort of like, we put a button in it, you know, we put a bow on it right before the lockdown and we sort of like we put a button in it you know we

put a bow on it right before the lockdown so we we had we had really gotten a lot of stuff done so we were like i don't know in terms of like the editing of the movie we were like 90 95 percent done in terms of the animation it was like the other departments are less done but but the editing is really the stuff that's important because that determines what they're going to animate um and editing is a nightmare over zoom you know because it's like it's very precise you know for it's like that there's like a chuck jones thing where it's like if wiley coyote falls nine frames it's not funny and if he falls six frames it's not funny but it's funny if he falls into the seventh frame or whatever and comedy is like that you know and our editor greg is really great but it's not funny but it's funny if he falls into the seventh frame or whatever and comedy is like

that you know and our editor greg is really great but it's still hard because you don't it's not as exact as you want it but i will say every other part of the process was like shockingly easy and i think that's why you know animation has done well over the pandemic even though that's there's bigger problems out there but But, but it's, I do think it's, it's that part of it was, was shockingly easy. And it also was a real reminder of like, you know, even though there's terrible things about technology, I could also call my mom. And even though the Zoom call was always in there, it felt like extra relevant because of the pandemic. The other way the technology feels important to this is this was

going to be a Sony theatrical release and then it shifted to Netflix and I mean I don't they I never get a true sense of the numbers here but it seems like the movie is a big fucking hit like a lot of people I know have seen it and loved it I assume the response you're getting is pretty crazy yeah I mean how did you feel when that was first announced and how do you feel about it now? No, I mean, when it was first announced, I was sort of like, huh, that's interesting. I mean, because the thing is, I, you know, I just want as many people to see it as humanly possible. Like, cause you know, we worked on a long time and it's like, you know, it's the nice thing about Netflix. Like everyone has Netflix, like every person I've ever met has Netflix so they could just watch it tomorrow if they want to. so that was really cool so i wasn't really that

bummed out about it and the other thing that was awesome is netflix was like hey i don't want to rough my feathers but we like the old title and i was like i like the old title uh great you know wonderful it's a it's a better title for sure i do think it's a better i would always like say like you know it's like i feel like my nephew would be reading the word connected and just fall asleep yeah it's so much more memorable and honestly so much more true to the story it's it it feels more like the movie you know um and so so you know as soon as they told me they wanted the new the old title back i was like great we're done done deal sooner um and then now i mean it's it's it's proven to be even though it is the cool thing about being in a movie theater is you get numbers like you know that are

like very tangible and you're like okay in comparison to all these other movies i know what a sense you know and and it's not like you know they tell you numbers but you also don't know what some of those mean you know you're like okay that sounds good right um so it's it's it's like but i will say that that the positive side of that of course is just like so many people have seen it and like people like my my the jeff my co-director was walking in his hometown and he saw two people in different windows watching it you know and i was like uh and was like, Jeff, knock on the window and tell me you wrote that joke or whatever. He didn't like

a coward. But it's cool that everyone can watch it and it's getting watched a lot. Mike, we usually end every episode of the show by asking a filmmaker what's the last great thing they've seen. And you can tell me a movie that you've seen recently that you like, but

really, this whole episode is about 21st century animation. So what I really want to know from you, a genuine expert and professional, is like, what are your favorite animated movies of this century? That is really tough. I mean, I wish I had thought about

it more, but I think honestly, this is sort of like a basic answer or something but it's like oh yeah oh it's it's it's spider-verse it's spider-verse yeah that's gonna be that's gonna be my number one as well which is it's funny because like I I watched that movie on a screener with bad sound in my office and like just because like it was out and it was i was like they had a screening at the studio but i was like working insane hours so then they just gave me a screener and i just watched it on my laptop and i was like blown against the wall and like my hair was on fire and i was like this is incredible um so um so i would say that and i would say that even if i

didn't know the guys involved um because it it it was truly like a bolt of inspiration that like was made me shake after i watched it i think from a lay person's perspective it's it's obvious that there was something different about that movie and that it like it obviously it resonated profoundly but from like a technical and professional perspective what was it that was so rat like such a leap forward? It was, it was just like, okay. So it's like all of the animators are very like jaded,

you know, you know, cause we're like, why don't they do an animation movies like this? Like we have lunch and we just, just bitch at each other, you know? And something you would talk about is like,

why do all animated movies look the same, you know and and why can't we bring different influences into it and it was so wild to see someone just do it and like and and and also knowing the process it's like they shattered every rule every part of the pipeline they reinvented so much of the just like process of making animation through sheer like force of will and invention. And everything about that movie looks different than, you know, cause it's like, I remember watching it with my sister-in-law who I love and is so sweet,

but she's like, huh, that's weird. You know? And I was like, no, you don't understand. This is a revolution.

But, but, you know, she's like, okay, just calm down. You're spitting on me. And I'm like, sorry, sorry. But it is. It's like, and it's also rare to see a movie that's that experimental, that is that entertaining at the same time. Normally, you know, it's like I went to film school and, you know, I think of experimental movies as being like slow movies that might have something interesting about them visually um and it was so wild to see them experiment and

have the experiments work and also tell a really human story that made me laugh and cry at the same time it was it was really like it was seen it was like seeing somebody do like a you know tony hawk do the 1080 or whatever it was like what is happening um like shouldn't they do you know it's like it felt like everyone missed a step like where was the movie that was the road to this movie they just went straight from every animated movie to this wildly different one in one go um and it was really it was really inspiring to all of us. Yeah. And I feel like your movie is just like a continuing

part of that revolution. So thanks for that. Thanks for doing the show, Mike. I really appreciate it, man. Thank you. It was a treat. Say hi to Amanda for me. I will.

Thank you to Mike Rihanna, Rob Harville, Charles Holmes, and our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode, and to Sasha Ashel for her work on this episode. Next week on The Big Picture, Amanda and I will dig into two of the biggest releases of the weekend, Netflix's The Woman in the Window starring Amy Adams and Those Who Wish Me Dead on HBO Max with Angelina Jolie. We will see you then.