The Big Picture - Top Five Coming-of-Age Movies and ‘Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret’

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Judy Blume’s beloved 1970 classic of young adult fiction has finally hit the big screen. Sean and Amanda discuss that, along with Disney’s new ‘Peter Pan and Wendy’ live-action adaptation (1:00) before sharing their top five favorite coming-of-age films (29:00). Then, Sean is joined by writer-director Kelly Fremon Craig to discuss making ‘Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret’ (1:06:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Kelly Fremon Craig Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessy, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season. And that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends. So make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express.

Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about maturation. Later in the show, I'll have a conversation with Kelly Freeman Craig, the writer-director of Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. It's her second film, and it's an adaptation, of course, of Judy Blume's beloved 1970 classic of young adult fiction. I hope you'll stick around for the chat. But first, we do have a couple of films that capture those critical days when young characters are coming of age. We hear that word all the time. What does it mean, coming of age?

We're going to share our five favorite coming of age movies, and we're going to talk about these movies that are out now. The first of which, of course, is Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. Amanda, you were once a young woman coming of age. I have to assume Judy Blume crossed your path. Of course. What's your relationship to the book, to Judy, and then to this film? This was one of the ones that I read as a small person.

Or smaller than I am now, I guess guess because I also reread it last week well we know you can fight a kangaroo so you're not very small you've got some you've got some height my husband was like you do understand that the the center of gravity being lower is an advantage for the kangaroo right and that's like oh good grew, right? And I was like, oh, good point. I read Judy Blume at the age when you are supposed to read Judy Blume. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, in a conservative pocket of Atlanta, Georgia, and I went to a pretty conservative, a very good but extremely conservative school, and had parents who loved me very much but didn't love talking that much so this is how I learned stuff um and I really the books for me had the effect that I I think they did for everyone which is their power and why Judy Blume is Judy Blume but I remember maybe not like learning about

sex and periods and and hormones and attraction and attraction to other people and to boys from these. But it was certainly the most normal arena in which I found them. Yeah, it was the most mainstream version of that conversation, right? And unembarrassing and treating them like everyday topics and things that would be a part of your life without shame. So I remember Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. I read Dini. Those are the two that stick out for me as a young child because I was also a massive reader, obviously, instead of having friends. And then, no, that's not true.

We share that. I think we had some things in common at this time in our lives. I didn't have siblings. So that's really like what I did was just read books. Can I just share with you though? I did have siblings, but it's a big joke inside my house that on car trips, I was desperately trying to finish books in the backseat while my brother and sister were playing together and I was not playing with them.

So I can relate. Exactly. Yeah. backseat while my brother and sister were playing together and I was not playing with them so I can relate exactly yeah um and then I guess as a teenager I would have read some of the books for adults summer sisters looms really large for me which is a later Judy Blume um installment and it's it's lovely well softcore porn is unfair because I think she's writing about sex in the way, you know, that is appealing but not exploitative, I guess. But there's a lot of sex in that book. And you're at a certain age and you're trying to, like, learn about sex in a certain way. And I remember Summer Sisters being very pivotal for me.

It's interesting because your point about the accessibility of these books makes it unique. I feel like kids were encouraged to read Judy Blume books. These were not hidden or illicit materials. Well, for us at least, which we'll come back to that. Right. Well, at least in our experience. And so I find that so fascinating because, you know, Judy Blume, of course, like this is kind of her magnum opus. This is the book she's best known for, Are You There, God? And it is told through the eyes of, you know, 11. 11, okay, an 11-year-old girl. But she wrote plenty of books through the eyes of boys too. And, you know, actually I've talked with Bill Simmons about this. He was a huge Judy Blume fan growing up. I was too.

I feel like Tales of a Fourth Grade, nothing like is this whole other kind of portal. Right. And the super fudge books that a lot of young kids, I don't know if kids still read Judy Blume. I assume that there's been a bit of a fourth grade nothing like is this whole other kind of portal right and the super fudge books that a lot of young kids i don't know if they if kids still read judy bloom i assume that there's been a bit of a boom of late but she's just this incredibly um empathetic warm funny but not like haha laugh out loud but she's right and when when you're reading her work it feels like she's talking directly to you right and that's like the sign of a great writer it's a sign of a great writer of young adult and and children's fiction i'm reading so much children's fiction these days so i have a real like a regained an appreciation for the art form

and it's fascinating that she has not been kind of widely adapted in the culture like this you know she reportedly for years declined adaptations of this book in particular because it's so important to her and important to other people and maybe it didn't seem like the right project had ever come along. And so it really lived inside the minds of readers for a long, long time. It's kind of a huge task to take on something like this. It's not quite the Bible, but it's up there for 11 year old girls. It might be. And so it's so I'm happy to report that it's just absolutely wonderful movie I cried I really

cried and I cried not just because there is a real nostalgic element to like seeing this text that meant so much to you and this like really ethos and way of looking at the world is like Judy Blume's mind up there which which is really lovely. But I think

just the way it tells the story and the slight changes that it makes, particularly in the character of the mother and the grandmother, are all fully realized. And just that last moment, which is a pretty famous moment, really works not just because of like oh it's so important to see this on screen or whatever which it is just because it's really touching yeah yeah well the thing that's interesting about the film i think you nailed it so the book is largely about an 11 year old girl named judy who moves from new york city where she lives on the upper west side margaret Margaret. Sorry, why did I say Judy? It's the author of the book.

Margaret. An 11-year-old girl named Margaret who lives on the Upper West Side, Lower West Side? I can't remember where she lives. She lives in New York City. Yes. And her parents tell her that they're moving to suburban New Jersey. And she moves to this suburban paradise. And this is at the exact moment in her life where she's realizing that the world is bigger.

She's flowering. Yeah. One note, she comes back from camp and they're like, surprise, we bought a house in New Jersey and we're moving, which is one more reason you should never trust summer camp. Though in the world of Judy Blume, I think Margaret enjoys summer camp.

Your parents may betray you if you leave the house for six weeks. In addition to leaving her apartment in New York, she's also leaving her grandmother with whom she's very close. And then she builds this kind of phone relationship with her. And, you know, the book is largely centered around her point of view as she, you know, becomes attracted to men. As she thinks about getting her period. As she engages with like a friend circle and what it means to have these like intense friendships. She desperately tries to grow breasts.

Yes. Which is just a lot of the, and, and the way the book is structured is that Margaret, who is, whose mother is Christian, I guess, or was raised Christian and whose father is Jewish,

has no religion in her life. And so she's trying out talking to God. And so it, there are these interstitials where she says, you says, are you there, God? It's me, Margaret. Hi, God, it's me, Margaret. And I would say at least 30% of those conversations are her just praying for breasts. And everybody else has them. In a very famous scene, she gets a training bra and she's like, I need something to fill it with you know like it's just but it's that is also a point of fixation it's a 2023 movie that sort of feels like it's been around for 50 years as well there it's obviously it's a period piece told in the 1970s

i think very effectively told i think one of the reasons why folks like you and i are likely to relate to this movie as much as our kind of emotional relationship to Bloom's writing is that it's also maybe in some ways even more so a film for parents and a film for people entering the next phase of their life like a real genuine adulthood where they have a lot of responsibilities there are crisis points they're thinking about their own parents and what they gave to them and also how to take care of them and how they intersect with this new generation that is coming into their life very very gracefully handled i thought you know like i've mentioned this a couple of times now but the dramedy is really like a lost art and the film is funny but it's not slapsticky and it's silly when it needs to be but it's very sincere when it needs

to be really anchored by kind of an amazing rachel mcadams performance i thought she was really good i'm really hot and cold on her but when she's good, she's such a gifted, dramatic actor. I'm hot on her always. And I thought that this was the genius stroke of the movie for me. Because in the book, as you said, it's written in the first person from Margaret. She's talking to God a lot. And the adults are just kind of looming adult figures and they aren't really developed as characters, which in the book is exactly right and makes sense because when you're 11, like what are all these large people doing and like what are they talking about? And one of the books like real achievements is like not understanding the subtext of these people

and not totally understanding what it means to have adult responsibilities and even that there are other people and so and being confused so there you know there is a distance um the movie is necessarily you know told in the third person and so they give the mother character played by Rachel McAdams like a real plot line in addition to a plot line from the book that is about what religion should Margaret be and her grandparents really having a lot of feelings about that. They developed that a little bit more in terms of Rachel McAdams' character. And then they also give her a plot line that Judy Blume herself developed, apparently, and was based on her own experiences of being a mom in suburbia and doing all the things

and then kind of hating it and wanting to get back to her painting career, which, you know, I'm a 38-year-old mother entering the world of PT. I just again thank you you know as always thank you Jeannie Bloom I feel seen in things but that is really interesting they also you know just kind of flesh out the grandmother character enough played by Kathy Bates yeah right and you know like very gracefully show her, like, loneliness and her, and explain her connection with the, the, the grandchild and her, her feelings and her, her perspectives.

So she doesn't really, like, seem like the stereotypical, like, pushy Jewish grandmother either. It's really lovely. And then I think they also managed to like create like an actual relationship between Margaret and the mom character and the grandmother, which is just lovely. It's very moving. Very simple, but very deep movie. Yeah. And unusual at this time in our history. And, you know, of course, Kelly Freeman Craig, her first film was Edge of 17, which was another film about young women at this time in our history and you know of course uh kelly freeman craig her first film was edge of 17 which was another film about young women at this critical stage of their life and she had a really deft touch with that movie very similar kind of tone like kind of funny but very um sincere and deep and she's got a real knack for this kind of thing and you know she

kind of trained at the altar of james. Brooks, who is a producer of this movie and who also evinced an incredible knack for human relationships and the complexity of human relationships in very intimate settings. And, you know, in terms of Endearment and broadcast news and on down the line, almost all the films that he made

were so simple and yet felt like there was a huge world inside of every character. That's very hard to pull off. So I think that this is just a really good movie and it's kind of a relief. I am quite curious how kids react to it and I don't really know enough

about how kids feel about Judy Blume in 2023. There was recently an Amazon documentary about Blume as well. There was a big feature in The New Yorker this week about her. You know, she's having a bit of a revival of press around her work because of this movie. And I assume that she still is kind of a signature voice among young people, but I'm not sure if that necessarily gets kids into movie theaters.

Kids are not trained to see simple stories that reflect their lives. They're trained to see something a little bit different at the movies these days, whether it be animated or more super heroic. So I'm kind of fascinated. I hope it does well. I think it's a really great kind of a film for kids to see. Bobby, did you read Judy Blume? I read Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing.

Okay. And otherwise known as Sheila the Great. Yeah, so it's still around. It's in the mix with you guys. My relationship, yeah, my relationship to Judy Blume was like remembering that it was a book that my teachers and librarians were proud to see me carrying around reading like an elementary and middle school you know it's like intergenerational connectivity of her work because the themes of it are so just like timeless about being a kid and being alive and some of the stuff

that you guys have already named which also bodes well in the sense of you still have to have a parent drive you to the movie theater for this one you know so hopefully there are parents of you know from bobby's age to our age and beyond who are like oh okay like i'll take my 11 year old i think it would be a great movie to see with your child like as a it's pro parent which is really nice and a lot and many of them we're going to talk about are coming of age films and many of the movies are not pro-parent which that's okay you know you got to go through that phase too um but great artists have complicated relationships but um but this this is a point of connection which i think is very sweet uh parents will not have to drive their children to see the other film we'll be discussing because it is streaming on Disney Plus this Friday.

That film is Peter Pan and Wendy, which comes to us from David Lowery, who's really one of my favorite directors. He's been on this show a couple of times. And this is a live action adaptation, as Disney has been pumping him out for the last 10 or so years. This one is of the 1953 animated film Peter Pan. It's based on Peter Pan or The Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J.M. Barrie. Peter Pan has been adapted many, many times on the big screen. This one, like I said, not necessarily going to the big screen. It's Lowry's second Disney movie after 2016's Pete's Dragon,

which many believe is the, if not the best, one of the best live-action adaptations. And that movie changes the story quite a bit from the original film. This film really does not. And I found it to be significantly less successful. Well, it adds some backstory, which we'll talk about. It flourishes, but there were a lot of beats from the original movie. Excuse me. Like Captain Hook's origin story is now part of this movie?

And that's his origin story? My final note in the outline for this conversation was, is Captain Hook misunderstood? Okay. So let me just say right now, this sucks. This is a really, really not good live action adaptation of a film that probably i mean you know this is complicated the original peter pan comes with like an extended content warning now on disney plus i re-watched some of it because i watched the original all very culturally insensitive yeah all the time but hugely culturally insensitive so i to the point you know i sat there re-watching it

the the music you know brought up some like primal memories for me. And then I was also like, oh, I can't show my son this. Like this is just, you know, this is not okay. It's not. Like so many entertainments for children or for adults. Right. Whatever the cultural mores of the time were. Right.

Are just not appropriate now. Exactly. So on the one hand great give us an update of sorts but this is faithful it culturally updates things the lost boys are uh now you know of all genders and races and honestly the one thing i'll say incredibly cute children yeah in the lost boys like really good casting yeah well except for whatever i'm not going to take shots of children yeah no no annihilate an 11 year old's career please no all of them all of the lost boys uh were wonderful um and it does i guess it gets

rid of like the obvious insensitivities but like otherwise it's just flat and boring it adds in weird backstory for captain hook which is spoiler alert i guess if you don't want to know captain hook's origin story fire away i mean he was once a lost boy and then was kicked out of Neverland by Peter Pan and grew up and now Peter Pan hates him and so Peter Pan apologizes to him at some point for his treatment which I didn't know that what we needed to update in Peter Pan was the insensitive treatment of Captain Hook yeah it's it's not very good it kind of breaks my heart how not very good it is. There's a variety of reasons why. Some of it is the story. Some of it is the performances.

To me, it has the same problem that so many of these movies have, which is that they look terrible. Dark, ugly animation. It's awful. The digital animation is not good. There's a kind of awkward conversion happening here. The handful of moments when they go to Never Never Land, where I don't know where they shot.

It looks like Scotland. Those handful of moments when they go to Never Neverland, where they're, I don't know where they shot, you know, it looks like Scotland. Those handful of moments when they're on a real location and you can see real geography. It's so beautiful. It's beautiful. And it's in such stark contrast to 80% of the rest of the film, which is like either on a set or on green screen and looks awful. And these poor kids have to act in front of green screen, which is really challenging. I think this is a huge part of the challenge of movies for kids now is asking not very experienced actors to perform in a way that adults have figured out how to perform in. I think this is a really critical thing. And the other thing is just like, you're right that the Peter Pan original Disney version is not really well suited to be shown contemporarily, but it's just not that different from the film.

And so like so many of these live action Disney movies, maybe they changed 12 to 18 jokes. Maybe they added a character or they recast to be more thoughtful about our society, but you just don't need it. It's duplicative of so much that we already have. And so it just feels, I can't help, but feel so cynical about the cash grab nature of these projects.

There's not really anything super creative about what's going on there, even though you've got tons of talented people working on this movie. Can I ask a related question? Sure. What are we supposed to learn from Peter Pan? What's the takeaway? I rewatched the old one to be like, what was I supposed to learn from this? Growing up, good, good bad not sure i i think that growing up is essential that wendy and and and her brothers return to their home eventually but to never lose that sense of wonder that sense of imagination that sense of adventure

okay that never never land and peter right encourages and the lost boys encourage even i do think that's even when the girl becomes the mother which is the only option for her, which is somehow still included in the 2023 live action version. Yeah, the flash forward to her future as a grandmother laying on a bed reading a book. We could have done a little better. It's very strange. It's just also like if the Lost Boys need someone to tell them a story, any number of people could tell them stories, not just moms. You're right. It's a very valid criticism. This is my one note about Raffi as well. Us boys need someone to tell them a story. Any number of people could tell them stories, not just moms. You know? You're right.

It's a very valid criticism. This is my one note about Rafi as well. I've been meaning to tell you about this. He excludes dads. It's always moms taking us to the zoo. Mom made me a sandwich. Well, again, his origins as an artist. I know.

They're in a different time. Rafi's still recording. That's true. He can update it. You think he should do dual income household songs? Yeah. Why not? Listen, there's a wide world of parents and grandparents out there.

I want a song for dads called You Can Have It All. You can have your career. You can have your time spent with your child. You can feel like a fulfilled man living in our society, reading Jordan Peterson blogs. You can have vivid knowledge of the 2023 New York Mets 40-man roster. And I do Jimmy Yacobonus thank you for your service sir

back down to AAA tough tough tough film tough not really what you want these movies are not stopping anytime soon you know CinemaCon is taking place right now in Las Vegas and as we are recording on Wednesday Disney is making their big presentation they've started

rolling out the character posters for the rest of their films coming out this year. And what did I see? Character posters from The Little Mermaid, which comes to us in, nay, two months. And that film also doesn't look terribly good. We'll see. I don't want to prejudge too harshly, but the trailer did not look strong, in my opinion. It was also presented without any sort of ad warning during the Academy Awards.

So I'm still mad about that. That is a fact. You will carry that axe all the way into the screening room. Then next year, we got two more of these. We've got Mark Webb's Snow White. Mark Webb, who was last seen, I think, making Spider-Man movies in the 2010s and who made 500 Days of Summer. And then Barry Jenkins' Mufasa film film also coming in the summer of 2024. Yeah.

I don't know what to think about that. I feel like I've been reading about it for 10 years. That's like Richard III, so, you know, that's fine. You think he's making Richard III? Yes, because Lion King is Hamlet and then the story about the villain, but you're trying to sympathize for him. The Shakespearean comp would be Richard III.

Is that actually what you think he's going to do? No, but I just... Because that's what everyone says is happening on Succession right now, right? That's the Kendall arc. I know, well, that's what Kendall... That's what Jeremy Strong said.

Dramaturgically, this really resembles Richard III. Yes, exactly. So, you know, I just like to make you talk about Shakespeare and how you don't think

Lion King is good. It has some flaws. Maya, I spent a few weeks ago, I spent some time with my nephew, Jack, and he knows, like, all the characters' names

and always wants to say them. And so, you know, we'll be like, let's go. Oh, wait, Mufasa, though, is the dad. Yeah, Mufasa is the father. It's about Mufasa.

It's not about Scar. Well, I assume Scar will be a figure. Right, okay, but then it's not Richard III. Okay. All right, so what Shakespeare is the father. So it's about Mufasa. It's not about Scar. Well, I assume Scar will be a figure. Right, okay, but then it's not Richard III. Okay. All right, so what Shakespeare is it going to be? Wouldn't it be great if it was just Twelfth Night? It would, actually.

That would be very funny. If all along Mufasa was dressed up as a male lion. I mean, if it's the middle-aged one, then it's probably Macbeth, right? I don't know. I genuinely don't. No, I thought... Oh, you know, you're right. You're right. It could be Macbeth. Okay. right? I don't, I genuinely don't. No, I thought, oh, you know,

you're right, you're right, you're right. Could be Macbeth. Okay. Gosh, I don't know. They should make a Scar movie.

I don't think Disney these days is like, let's get back into Shakespeare. I don't think that they're thinking about those texts when they create these new stories. I would agree with that. Like, is Moana based on Shakespeare? I don't know, but apparently Moana is very powerful with the children,

so. Just you wait. How long until Moana is in your life? I don't know. We've been thinking about it. You wait until two usually to start really exposing screens. So we're getting close. I don't know.

We'll see what she likes. Moana, is that better or worse for you than Elmo? Sesame Street is very educational, which I really appreciate. Okay. I sound like an absolute moron saying that, but it's really amazing what they're trying to do with, like communicate to children to this day, 50 years later. I have so much respect for what they do. It's incredible. I do too. So I guess Elmo, I don't know. I've seen Moana once and I didn't like it. And I know that must be blasphemy, but I'm sure I'm now cursed to 5,000 screenings of the film. I do think I will be logging the films every time I watch them with my kid

as a bit on Letterboxd. I'm thinking about doing that. Like every time we run Frozen 2 in the house, I will log it. Do you have to watch the whole thing for it to be logged? Let's say, let's do a 20 minute. Okay.

If I get through 20 minutes, then I will log it. Okay. What do you think about that? I think that's funny. Kind of a funny bit. Yeah. Not much else to say.

I don't think about Peter Pan and Wendy, but these are really two, a contrast of terms, these two films and kind of what we expect our children to enjoy. I don't really feel like any of the films that I picked are actually for kids on my top five coming of age movies. How'd you think about this? What do you think of when you think of these movies? That every single movie I love, could qualify. So, you know, and I picked movies by some of my favorite directors, but it's, like, most of their filmography could be included. So I picked what I thought would be the most representative one. I tried to also, within that, not pick movies,

or not pick all movies that we've talked about a thousand times. Me too. Because, you know, there were, Ferris Bueller's Day Off is not on my list. We actually don't have a John Hughes movie on our list,

which did you think I was going to do it? I mean, speaking of somebody who's, you know, portrayal of adolescence has kind of come under fire in the last few years about what his vision

of the world is versus what's right. I still love the John Hughes films. I felt similarly though. I mean, I have a couple of like stone cold classics that are in my life forever and then I also tried to think of a few other kinds of movies. You switched yours. Oh, I like it. Okay. Well, I, and, and good. You put, I thought it was weird

when you just did this and not the other. We'll talk about it. Yeah. Okay. We can talk about it. I mean, I, it's hard because a lot of these movies that I put on my list came out when I was coming of age, but I probably didn't realize their power until I was 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. And it's because you don't really have a sense of self when you're 13. You might recognize something that you feel emotionally attached to, but you can't intellectualize it or really make sense of it. But these are all movies that I have returned to a few times. And there's one in particular that I only just saw a few years ago that I think is an amazing portrait of this. But, you know, coming of age can mean a lot of different things. I think in the Judy Blume sense of the word, it's like becoming a woman,

you know, that scientific thing that happens for all women that signals the next phase of their life. And for men, it's something different. Sometimes it's hitting a home run in a baseball game. Sometimes it's your first kiss. Sometimes it's getting into a fistfight with a friend. You know, like there are always these kind of stages of life that people are going through. It's just the richest text. It's the richest playground for movie storytelling. As long as you have good young actors, which as I was indicating earlier is challenging. If you don't have the right actors, the whole movie can go down. And so it's tricky finding the right version because you can have a filmmaker with a great script a great idea and if the people aren't there then it's not going to work um do you

want to start anything else you want to say about coming of age movies before we start going through our films no i didn't pick the movies that i watched as a child i would you said that the same thing but you know like now and then is another kind of like classic example that number one we've talked about, I think, during like, I can't remember what podcast, but we did talk about it. I like that movie too. I like that movie a lot. And I watched that movie a lot growing up.

That's a great example of what, like I was saying, was missing. Yeah. Which is like a funny ensemble film about, what are they, 12 in that movie? Yes. And that's exactly what I'm thinking of thank you for of course so i really like that movie i've talked about it before i also think that the movies on my list are just like better as movies and at some point i just picked movie movies because this is i mean in its most fundamental definition it's someone going going through a stage of life, like a milestone in some way, and learning something about themselves and the world,

which is one of the four movie plots. It can really encompass a lot of things. I was trying to think of a favorite musical that fits in this. Many of my beloved romantic comedies could also go in this bucket in some way so and some people might argue that one of my choices is in the romantic comedy bucket but i think it's more about the young woman in question so it it really can like it can be as broad as you want it to be. I tried to keep it, I guess I just went idiosyncratic ultimately, like the movies that like stick in my mind in some, like emotionally in some way. Yeah, I think that's right.

I think that that's what I was thinking of too. The films were when I was watching them, I was like, ah, this hits it. This like, this touches this very particular place in my chest that there's a sense of identification, the same identification you have reading Judy Blume. Right. Where like she gets it, she gets me. And that's very powerful. So why don't you start? Okay.

What was your first film? My first film is An Education, which is a 2009 film directed by Lone Turfig and based on a real story by a real British journalist named Lynn Barber. And it is about a young woman in the 60s in London. And she's about to graduate high school. And she's on the straight and narrow and she's doing well in school and she's going to apply to Oxford. Yes. Big Amanda vibes. Yes yes of course yeah um it helps also that she's played by carrie mulligan in her breakout role which you know if if that could be me i would be thrilled uh and as she is kind of

nearing the finish line of the high achieving life that has been plotted out for her. She meets a man who introduces her to a different side of the world, a more glamorous side of the world. And she is, any young woman would, is drawn into that. And it's sort of a rebellion and sort of just like a window into a different life. And, you know, then that turns out to not be what it seems. So, but, and in, not in, that makes it sound like a horror movie. And it's not quite that. You could make a version of this that is a horror movie. But what's, what's nice about this movie is that she has some experiences.

She learns some lessons, and then, spoiler alert, she just gets her shit back together and then, like, goes on. And there is something that doesn't make the experiences any less deeply felt. And in some ways, like, what she learns on her adventures do seem to inflect the rest of her life but like at the end it's okay you know she she went through this test she took some chances and then she just gets on with it and i find that really charming it's also um a tremendous carrie mulligan performance just like really oscar nominated, I think. Yeah. And this is like the... This is when we all learn who Carey Mulligan is.

So if you haven't seen it, it's really... And it's a really like delightful, easy, assured watch. So check it out. Wonderful movie. Lone Sure Fig hasn't made as many... It hasn't quite had the career

I expected after this movie. This is one of my wife's absolute favorite films of all time. I like it quite a bit too. My number five is Hoop Dreams. I think that the documentary format, form, can be really powerful with stories like this, but require an incredible amount of sensitivity. Hoop Dreams, I think many people believe, might be the greatest documentary film ever made. It's 1994.

It's directed by Steve James, who has since gone on to become one of the masters of the documentary form and is kind of a saint in the nonfiction space now. But this was a huge breakthrough film in a lot of ways, widely celebrated at the time, although also kind of ensnared in some controversy around recognition at the Academy Awards, which we can talk about in a second. But it follows two young men in Illinois, William Gates and Arthur Agee, who are attempting to launch into a life of success by way of basketball.

They're both attending kind of critically important schools that will then help them get into college that will then help them get into the NBA and there's a lot of promise but they both come from very complicated backgrounds there's a lot of violence in the neighborhoods that they live in their families and their relationships to their son's success is really complex this is a really sprawling kind of epic tragedy in many ways it's a three-hour film but it is but it is sitting in the lap of these people as they're going through these various stages. And the themes are big, but the moments are very small and nuanced.

And a kid getting injured or a kid showing up late to practice or a kid not passing a class or getting kicked out of a school, these are earth-shattering moments in a person's life. Very rarely, I mean, having worked a school. These are earth-shattering moments in a person's life, like very rarely. I mean, having worked a little bit in documentary, you really gain an appreciation for like the absolute,

the astonishing level of like access and thoughtful storytelling that goes into this movie. And the other thing is like, it's a film that if you're a teenager, you can relate to it, but also it's a completely different, for somebody like me, grew up in the suburbs of Long Island, completely different experience. Well, I think opens your world up to other people's

experiences in a way that just frankly like a fictionalized film can't it just cannot make you understand someone's real life better and so it's just a really powerful movie there was a lot of talk about it when um when mining the gap came out about four or five years ago because bing lu is sort of a an acolyte of Steve James and Kortemkin, which is this documentary company helped produce Minding the Gap. And Minding the Gap feels in many ways like a spiritual successor about these young men growing up

and kind of moving in different directions in their life. You know, I guess you could say Hoop Dreams is a great sports movie, but it's obviously a lot more than that too. I assume everybody who's listening to this show has heard of Hoop Dreams. I assume most have seen it. If you've not seen it, it is deeply worth your time. It's really one of the most special movies of the 1990s. I was jealous that you got a documentary on this list. And I was

trying to think of any documentary about young girls that isn't like they're fucked, you know? And I don't, yeah. There's a wave of like competition films like spellbound yeah jesus camp you know those are like they're not they're not the same and there is much about the cultural you know environment around those they are if you know of a great documentary that is about this please let me know i i also like a lot of ways judy bloom forever which is the documentary that we saw at sundance and is now on Amazon Prime. It's about her in those ways. I would check that out. What's your number four? Reality Bites. I like this. I wouldn't have thought of this, but you're right. Yeah. And this is what I was thinking of when some people may think of this as a romantic comedy. This is a 1994 movie directed by Ben Stiller. Yes, that Ben

Stiller who also stars in it with Wynonna Ryder and Ethan Hawke. And it is definitely a love triangle between those three people. But it is primarily about Wynonna Ryder graduating from college and trying to figure out what to do with her life. And who she should date and how she should live and what her work should be. And she goes through all the phases of trying to be an artist and then selling out and dating the rich guy and then, you know, ultimately dating the person that she is meant to be with. As her soulmate. At the age of 24, which, you know, like,

I think the next movie of them breaking up would also be a coming-of-age drama part two, you know? I would love to watch the 30 years later sequel to this film. Yeah, absolutely. I would watch the five years later because I don't really think they make it that much longer. Troy was not made for commitment. Yeah, but so this movie also, since it came out in 1994, I would have seen it as a teenager. And this, like, taught me about the 90s.

This is like what taught me about this era of not just, you know, what it means to graduate and try to figure out your life, but like what that means in Gen X terms and what is cool and what is not cool and the references. So this was sort of like a model for me in a lot of ways of how to how to what i should think is cool um this also has the the trick that i think is a like it's um an indicator of a lot of these movies where for many years you watch it one way and identify or root for one character or one choice and then you get to a certain age. And you're like. Oh no. The other choice is the better choice. Because you're. You're old.

And you've sold out. It was just in a. Uh. Work meeting. Where we were having the debate. About Ben Stiller's character. Versus Ethan Hawke's character. And uh. You know.

The older you get. The more. Ben Stiller may have bad taste. But he's not a bad person. Right. And um. He makes some mistakes. But he probably won't

ruin your life yeah troy might ruin your life yeah complicated movie i mean the answer is neither right yes you know yes but is it to be independent or is it to still seek love right that's we they don't the film doesn't answer that question exactly uh maybe at 24 it is to be independent that's something we're learning more and more in our culture. We're not rushing into marriage. I also do think the lesson in this film of if you only have a gas card, sell gas for cash is just something that stayed with me for a long time. Some great stuff. I love Reality Bites. Now I want to see that sequel. My number four is, I'm cheating, because when I thought of this prompt, I thought of Paper Moon, which is one of my favorite movies.

I'm sure some people listening are aware of Paper Moon. It's Peter Bogdanovich's third film. It's an adaptation of the book Addie Prey by Joe David Brown. And it's about, you know, it stars Ryan O'Neill and his real-life daughter Tatum O'Neill as he plays a con man. She plays a young woman who sort of comes into his life. She may or may not be his daughter. The film sort of, you know, suggests that at the beginning, but we're not sure. And then we learn pretty early on that she has a knack for his con game.

And they go on this sort of trip through the South, running cons, building their relationship, and kind of learning to understand each other while getting into hijinks. Shot in black and white. Beautiful film. Funny, weird, incredible madeline khan performance tatum o'neill won an academy award for her performance madeline khan was nominated this is when bogdanovich was the toast of the town he's coming off of the last picture show which is the other film that i kind of want to pair this with and and what's up doc and when i was thinking about it, I was like, why did I not think of The Last Picture Show? Because that is even more so this sort of tableau, you know, of many different people

going through this exact moment in their lives from like 16 to 18. When you live in a small town and the only thing that seems to matter is whatever's going on in your high school or the girl you're dating or the boy you're dating. And then you have to go out into the real world and confront what's really happening how do i make a living how do i how do i engage with all the challenges facing me notable thing about this and i'm a massive bogdanovich acolyte super fan i worship his movies he's really at his best when he's adapting somebody else's work and addy prey being the source text but then being revised somewhat for Paper Moon and then The Last Picture Show,

basically being a McMurtry novel that his then wife, Polly Platt, pulled off a rack and handed to him and said, read this. Kind of tells you everything you need to know because Bogdanovich, while he was a soulful artist, is an adapter.

He's like an iterator. He's somebody who looks at the history of movies and then says, what's my spin on the movies? And he has a real identification with these kind of like innocent, I really wish I was cool, but I'm not that cool people. That's his whole persona. He's a good looking guy, but he's a big dork.

And he really has a knack for helping, say, Jeff Bridges tap into that, or Timothy Bottoms tap into that in Last Picture Show in this small Texas town, or Tatum O'Neill in Paper Moon, who sort of like has to perform in front of her father to kind of get his approval and to get one over and to survive. So I love these movies so much. You know, one of my personal favorite movies of all time is this movie called Alice in the Cities, which is a Wim Wenders movie about a German journalist and photographer. It was made at the exact same time as Paper Moon and features a very similar structure. And I was originally going to put it

on this list, but I would encourage people to seek that one out too, because this writer falls into a kind of relationship with an eight-year-old girl who sort of like joins him on a journey. Like the films are eerily similar to the point where when vendors heard about paper moon being in production he canceled the movie and then had a change of heart and decided to get like re-raise the money and ultimately make the film but there's an era in the 1970s where like the relationship between children and adults in films was really at the forefront. Because I think you had a lot of really young filmmakers, like 25, 26, 27-year-olds, getting blank checks to go do whatever they wanted.

And they didn't have a lot of experience. So they're kind of immediately jumping back to 17, 18 years old. So anyway, those are the Bogdanovich double feature. I'm glad you put Last Picture Show on. When you originally made your list, it was just Paper Moon. And I was like, huh, you're not going to do Last Picture Show instead? Anyway.

How many times can you say The Last Picture Show on the pod? We haven't said it that much. Yeah, it's a great film. I mean, I think everybody, I think most people obviously know it. I think probably few and fewer people have seen it as we go on.

I mean, it's 52 years old now, which is staggering, but it's a wonderful movie. Okay, number three. Number three for me is The Virgin Suicides, which is my Sofia Coppola pick. You could make an argument for at least like the great four Sofia movies in this category. Lost in Translation, in a way. Absolutely. Marie Antoinette, in a way. How old was Marie Antoinette at that? That's the thing. She was like 18. Yeah, that's what I thought. She know, she's like 16 when they bring her to France.

And the idea of that movie is that this was a teenager. You know, she didn't know shit for good and for bad. Really for bad. So it didn't work out. What happened to her? You know, I just got to Louis XVI in the Age of Napoleon podcast. They kind of fast forward over what happened there. I guess they're going to get to it.

A lot of violence. Yeah. And then Somewhere could be a coming of age movie for both characters. Yeah, absolutely. It's Elle Fanning right she's the young girl yes yeah yeah yeah wonderful in that film um anyway Sofia Coppola is obviously one of my favorite directors I picked Virgins with Sides a little bit because I don't feel like we we don't talk about that one as much as I make you talk about the other movies on this podcast

and also because I mean it is probably the most traditional it's adapted from the Jeffrey Eugenides novel and it is about a group of sisters um who are in high school and they have some real problems and but it's told through the lens of the local boys in the neighborhood so it captures some of like that angst. I mean, not some of a very heightened version of that angst and that chafing against the strictures of being a teenager and particularly being a know, of that age look at girls and like kind of like the mystery and the, um, just the way that teenagers don't like quite understand each other. Objectifying but helpless, I think is how many boys see, um, at least Kirsten Dunst, if they went to high school with her. Right, exactly. So, and, and then it does also this interesting thing where it has a lot of the hallmarks of a traditional coming-of-age movie or teen movie.

You know, the hardtrab walking down the hallway. Is that a losing virginity scene or is that just a sex in the car scene? Either way, sex in a car scene. First dance, all these sorts of iconic movie tropes told in a different way with it with a very different spin so it's a it's very unsettling this is not a real melancholy a kind of like mysterious awkwardness and like impending doom yes you know is a huge part of this film i love that you love it it's a real it's a It's a good bridge for us, a movie like this, because it does have a lot of the tone that I like in films, but it's told through the eyes

of young women, which most movies like that are usually told through the eyes of 45-year-old men. Yeah, exactly. So it's a beautiful movie if people haven't seen The Virgin Suicides. Is it some sort of anniversary for that? What year is that movie? 1999 or 2000, depending on whether you're doing the festival release or the wide release. I forgot. We have debated this in the past. Okay. But I think Lost in Translation is 20 years this year, which is...

Oh, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Yeah, Lost in Translation is 2003. Maybe you should ask Bill to do that on the rewatchables. He doesn't take requests, as you know. I do know that. My number three is a movie that I only saw a few years ago that I discovered in the aftermath of Portrait of a Lady on Fire.

This is Celine Sciamma's debut feature film. It's called Water Lilies. It also stars Adele Hanel who is one of the stars of Portrait of a Lady on Fire.

Certainly one of the best movies I've seen in the last five years. It was released in 2007. And it's a French film about a young girl who desperately wants to join the synchronized swimming team. At first, it seems in part because she wants to belong, which is something that I think all young people can understand. They want to be a part of a friend group. They want to be a part of a social circle. They want

to be on a team. They want to find a portal to kind of make friends and build relationships. The desperation that you feel the first day of middle school, the first day of high school, it's a profound feeling. It's a movie that taps into that. It also taps into a complex emotional sexual desire

that is very rarely rendered on screen and in the wrong hands could be tremendously creepy given the age of some of the characters of this film. But in this film, it is mysterious and thoughtful, all similarly very deep um and complicated and it's set against this like this kind of visual cue of synchronized swimming which is this very kind of mechanized rehearsed

structural experience against the met the pure messiness of navigating young life. Incredibly, it's one of those movies where I didn't see it in 2007, but if I did, I would have just said, this person will make 10 great films. It's all there right away. It's incredible. And all of Sciamma's films are great. You talked about Petit Maman last year,

which is another film that is about a young person kind of having some recognition of the arc of life and like relationship to parents. And, you know, Sciamma is a really sophisticated filmmaker. I spent some time being like, is Portrait of a Lady a coming of age movie? It's certainly about, you know, discovering the wider world. I think those characters are younger than you might guess too exactly well then i had a whole thing of like basically every costume drama in some ways could be i almost put a room with a view on this that would have been a

good one um which is absolutely a coming of age drama um but i don't know that there are many other buckets so i like like your number two. Yeah. Because I feel I'm sensing a theme. Oh, really? Yeah, amongst your films. Well, so my number two is The Graduate, which is one of the great films. 1967, Mike Nichols.

Another of my favorite directors. This is the one that was shown to me in high school. And I give my high school a really hard time. And I think it was like really uptight and conservative and close-minded in a lot of ways. But they showed me the graduate in high school, which is pretty baller. That's weird. Yeah. That's cool. It's great.

I mean, you know, there were, shout out to all my teachers who were wonderful. You know, they were trying their best. Right. who are wonderful you know they were they were trying their best um right but so i remember watching this and being like huh never thought about it that way and the and somehow i was of that age where then like plastics and the floating underwater and like all of the actual visual cues that this movie like brings in to communicate like feeling at sea and not really having any direction and not knowing what's going on. And also thinking like everyone around you is saying total bullshit. Just like hit me at the right moment. So it's the first thing.

I mean, I still kind of think in those images when I'm thinking about this stuff. Yeah. All of your films are largely about people between the ages of like 17 and 22, which I find interesting. And I wonder how much of that is reflective of like your sense of like rejection, confusion, like freedom you've talked before about going to college and getting into a new experience. I mean, that is probably when my coming of age happened, which was between 17 and 22, as opposed to like 12 and 17. That's really interesting. I mean, The Graduate is one of those movies where, I guess, did you not maybe know of its kind of cultural import when you sat down to see it in

high school? It's 16 or 17? No, I don't think so. Yeah, by then I probably was kind of big. You'd done the AFI list? Yeah, well, just kind of big into knowing like the connective tissue, at least on things. So then when you watch it, you watch it with a little bit, it has a bigger burden when you're watching it. You're not watching it as fresh you might even know i might have actually watched the afi special and seen the clips of mrs robinson and known like lines of dialogue from the film before seeing it um it's a it's a wildly interesting movie though even to this day i mean deeply acidic and ambivalent and hard a really hard movie um obviously very intelligent and nichols is a genius and it's the incredible buck henry screenplay but uh it's not it's not like how fun

no it's it's kind of scary yeah also speaking of seeing the seeing a film from like the perspective of different characters the day you watch that movie and they're like, Mrs. Robinson is like really going through it. And I feel for her is like, it's a tough day, but that day has already come for yours. Truly. So similar to the, are you there?

God, it's me, Margaret, Rachel McAdams thing, you know, or it's like, Oh gosh, she is a person,

you know, mom is a person. Look at how beautiful she is. This is really, I mean, Oh, smoking hot. Yeah.

Yeah. And Bancroft. Yeah. Yeah. Super hot. I mean, that's the other thing is they were only like seven years apart. I love that little tidbit.

She's like 36. I Googled this. It's ridiculous. We are older than Anne Bancroft. Yeah. Yeah, super hot. I mean, that's the other thing is they were only like seven years apart. I love that little tidbit. She's like 36. I Googled this. It's ridiculous. We are older than Anne Bancroft. It's really tough. My number two is Boys in the Hood. One of my favorite movies

of all time. John Singleton debut. Speaking of incredible young filmmakers, he was in his early 20s when he made this movie, which is just tremendously sophisticated about life

in Compton, in South Central, in Los Angeles at the turn of the decade. You know, a story about kids moving in different directions that also is a tremendous movie about being a parent. You know, Furious Styles and Lawrence Fishburne's performance as Cuba Gooding Jr.'s character's father is one of the greats. It's a movie that kind of makes more and more sense the older you get in some ways and you think about you start moving out of the shoes of the young characters and into the shoes of the older characters again a movie that like shows showed me a world that i was not exposed to previously but also just from a pure filmmaking perspective like wildly powerful like grip you by the throat. And when you watch the end of that movie, it's like a true blue elevated Hollywood melodrama where you just cannot help. But I mean, I was

in tears the first time I saw this movie because I felt so connected to the characters and so interested in their futures. And it's just a testimony to the fact that for at least for some people, life is about choices and how you get to make those choices and those choices are not either become the president of the united states or be poor you know it's not much more nuanced than that and that small moments define everything um masterful movie i assume people have seen boys in the hood you know there's a great there was a great boys in the hood exhibit at the academy museum um over the last few months i'm not sure if it's still there but lots of artifacts from the film,

lots of backstory about the making of a film, you know, made in Los Angeles, you know, made for a studio, which took a chance on a young filmmaker. Just a,

just a, kind of a miracle of a movie. Can we do an Academy Museum field trip episode? Yes, but how would we capture that? I don't know. Bobby, Bobby can go to the Casablanca room now because he's seen Casablanca,

so he can think about it. I believe in you, Bob. Robert, when are you coming to Los Angeles? June. The end of June and beginning of July. Okay. I can follow you guys around with like a big boom mic, you know,

just share some takes as you walk through the Academy Museum. And we would probably need to film it for it to make sense. Would the Academy let us do that? That's a different conversation that we can have off mic. Right. What's your number one film?

It's a film called Lady Bird. Written and directed by Greta Gerwig, my hero. I mean, well, she is my hero. You didn't fly to CinemaCon to see the Barbie spread. No, I didn't. That's surprising. I watched all of the clips and pictures. How is your Kennergy these days?

It's absent. It's absent? Well, Brian Gosling is right. No one cares about Ken. No one plays with Ken. I applaud him for, you know, finding that source. How would you say my Kennergy is? Not present at all.

God damn it, Amanda. Well, first of all, you haven't seen the sun in a while. Ever. And the hair is slicked back. It's not spiked up. So do you know how to surf? I have surfed. Yeah?

Yeah. But you don't like the beach. I do not. Right. Why does Ken have to be defined by the beach? Well. Why can't he be defined by the forest? I love the forest.

Because that's not how. Who goes to the forest? Is it like Steve? Is there another male avatar of the world of Barbie? What you're doing right now is like in Barbie, the movie. It is? Okay, probably. I haven't seen Barbie, the movie, but I bet that it also qualifies

as a coming-of-age movie of sorts. I'm going to put this out there. Amanda and I are available to write Barbie 2. We will do it. Barbie goes to the forest. Can happen. Ken has to stay at the beach

with his shirt off. Yeah. Who decided that? Who made that call? Legitimate question, Tucker. Legitimate question. Maybeucker will get into that on his podcast has a brother um greta gerwig is another one who i think every movie like could have qualified for this little women certainly could qualify for this and and so could the 1994 version

and i thought about that in the now and then vein like that is another movie that I watched a lot in that kind of preteen era and meant a lot to me. I think Greta's adaptation is better and you know Lady Bird is just more on the nose. Frances Ha

also really qualifies for this which is co-written by Greta Gerwig and Noah Baumbach. Kind of a spiritual sequel to Reality Bites in some ways. Yeah. Similar woman at a phase of her life. Right.

And one of our favorite movies of all time. And then I was thinking, well, like Kicking and Screaming also, which is the Noah Baumbach debut film, again, about people leaving college and not really having it together, could also qualify one of my favorite movies.

So, but I went with Lady Bird which to me was just a revelation I think some of it has to do with the fact that it is set in 2002 so the Lady Bird character is one year younger than I was and all of the cultural references the Dave Matthews everything just like actually do speak to my own experience of being a senior in high school and not having it really uh figure it out though in very different ways you know as as previously discussed and mocked I was a little more type a than Lady Bird and I was not doing theater at this point in my life. But just- Not like now, where it's all a performance.

Right, and my relationship with my mother is different. But I think that Greta just understands this thing of young women not really having it together, but they will figure it out. And in the meantime, they do kind of embarrassing things that are very significant but also not catastrophic. And feel like the most important thing in the world. And maybe are in the moment. But then it's all going to be okay.

It's going to be figured out. There is this goodwill coursing through all of them that like you'll you'll get there that I find very generous and lovely and I'm like still kind of moved by so I think I mean you know this is also like a very funny movie incredibly well acted like all of the checks all the boxes in terms of execution but I to me it is perfect. Where are you at on Dave Matthews these days I mean Dave Matthews was so important in my middle school

and high school like I I'm never going to turn my back on Dave Matthews am I gonna listen to the music or go to a show

no I'm not but does it evoke a emotional response in me absolutely you will not listen to the music

that's what you said i'm not gonna like pull it up i'm not gonna like be like hey nox you want to listen to some dave matthews ants marching you know why not uh that's a great question i guess i could put it on i think that my husband would then throw me out of the house yeah i don't think zach was a dave guy yeah Yeah, no, he was already looking down on it, but that's okay. That's the other thing. I like that these are not cool characters, you know, but they're not also embarrassing losers either. They're just people, which is very affecting. It's a great insight. It's a very simple but nuanced film about deeply relatable in that way. I think that this is sort of true for my number one too,

you know, dazed and confused is my number one, certainly my favorite high school movie ever made. Certainly one of my favorite movies ever made, widely canonized, did an entire episode about this. I've interviewed Linklater multiple times on the show. My love for the movie,

I was on a rewatchables episode about it. It's, it's well understood, but it would be silly to make a list like this and not identify it. Um, 1993 in the aftermath of slacker. It's a film that he makes about in part, his experience growing up in Texas in the 1970s.

And from the perspective of both the coolest kid in the high school and the least cool kid in the high school, um, you know, it is a kind of kaleidoscopic vision of boys and girls, men and women, people at different phases of their adolescence. You know, both Mitch and Pink Floyd are very different, but very similar. And it's like a snapshot of a kid who wants to be cool

and a snapshot of a kid who is cool, but doesn't care. And it's a beautiful movie. You know, like, it's very funny, obviously, because of, like, the Ben Affleck-style characters and there's a lot of hijinks. It's deeply episodic,

largely taking place over the course of one night, like a party night at the end of a school year. But really, as with all Linklater films, it seemed very simple on the surface

but really sophisticated about things that don't seem as obvious in real time as with all Linklater films that seem very simple on the surface but are really sophisticated about things that don't seem as obvious in real time as they are upon reflection where like

why didn't I just have this conversation with this person or why didn't I pursue this or why did I pursue this why did I waste my time doing this thing you know

the Pink Floyd character in particular is thinking about like why he's spending all this time playing football and surrounding himself with a group of guys that he loves but also that he kind of knows that there's something is thinking about like why he's spending all this time playing football and surrounding himself with

a group of guys that he loves but also that he kind of knows that there's something kind of fleeting about this experience and he wouldn't trade it for the world but also he's like I only have one life to live and that's a deep idea for a high school movie that is in the vein of a kind of a John Hughes movie I love this movie obviously the music is extraordinary it's a snapshot movie it's a movie that you can put on like at any of the day, at any scene, and just slide right into it. But Linklater has kind of shown over and over again, he is always returning back to this. You pointed out how Sofia Coppola, you could pick any number of movies. Boyhood, of course, is a movie that fits in this. School of Rock is a movie that fits in this. Linklater is kind of obsessed with turning points in people's lives and the passage of time. Those are the key themes of his movies. Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, you know, it's very similar. Like Before Sunrise would be right in the, would fit comfortably on your list. Yeah. I do think it counts.

Most definitely. I mean, how old are those people? 22? Maybe. So, yeah. I mean, it's just a masterful movie. I think, most of these movies would be interesting pairings with are you there god it's me margaret you know because that's like phase one and a lot of these movies are kind of phase two or even phase three yeah um i think the other reason that some of my your insight that it's because my coming of age was more towards college is correct. But I do think that there is also a slight delineation. A high school movie and a true teen movie is different than a coming of age movie.

They share a lot. But, for example, Mean Girls is a movie that is bandied around a lot. And I do think Katie, the main character, learned something about how to be a person in that. But that is more portraiture of an entire social system. I re-watched The Breakfast Club. Or some of it, anyway. Which was another movie, actually, that my high school showed me. That was shown in my high school yeah yeah um because i think it is you know considered a coming-of-age classic and it is kind of strange that we don't have any john hughes on our on our list given our own age um but

to me breakfast club is in that same vein of like this is how high school works and this is how all of these people fit together and maybe they don't have to fit that way and they can do something different but um i do think that like teen high school collective movies are slightly different from the coming of age is a very personal experience is what i'm trying to say yeah i mean most of the movies that we've picked are ensemble movies but they do have like one kind of primary character. You know, The Breakfast Club, like not to kind of break down The Breakfast Club too deeply here at the end of this podcast conversation, but by design, it's like deeply schematic. Yeah. And it's kind of theme, it's idea is like, don't judge a book by its cover.

This person who is a jock might actually be emotionally complicated underneath the surface, which of course we've come to accept as a trope at the time it was a little bit more radical the thing is is like i don't really relate to any of the characters in the breakfast club personally i'm not real i wasn't any of those people in high school i was kind of i felt like i was one piece of all of the characters now you could make the case that that is the ultimate success of the movie but when you're 12 and you see a movie as much as you like it you're looking for yourself looking for yourself yeah and the same is true for pretty in pink 16 candles um certainly ferris bueller i've talked ad nauseum about cameron being the star of that movie for me you know and that is a coming of age movie for cameron right it's i mean and not for ferris who like doesn't really

go through any change yeah who's just thriving and who thriving and who we all want to be sort of. And you learn that maybe it's not like Ferris isn't. Yeah, it's Fight Club. He's fucking Tyler Durden and Cameron is Edward Norton. You don't have to bring Fight Club into it. It's a fact. That's fine. It's a prequel to Fight Club.

We love Ferris Bueller. We do. And we've talked about it a lot. You don't like Fight Club? I was going to say, I was thinking about Knox's Halloween costume this year. Tyler Durden? And part of me was like, he could be Ferris and you can, but don't worry, I've checked Etsy. I'll go as Cameron.

No, I was going to go as Cameron. Get out of the way. Does that mean Zach would be Mia Serra's character? He'll wear the fringe vest. I don't think Knox will be old enough to understand Halloween this year So I can put him in another costume for a year Where's he at on animals? I mean, he loves animals But I still don't think he would understand

Like, here's a dog costume for you to wear He wants to interact with the dog, not be the dog I see, I see Yeah, that was a wild moment when we put Allison in dog costumes She was very cute And she was like, am I a dog? That's deeply confusing anyhow very normal podcast

as always Amanda thank you you're welcome let's go to my conversation now with Kelly Freeman Craig delighted to be joined by Kelly Freeman Craig, one of my favorite directors. You've got two films in a row now that I really, really like. So thanks for being here.

Oh, thank you so much. So you've adapted quite a totemic piece of work that a lot of people have a huge relationship with. I do want to know what your relationship is to Judy Blume and if this felt a bit like adapting the Bible to you. Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. She's, I mean, she's the first person way she could capture exactly how I felt, you know?

So yeah, adapting it was, I mean, it was a process just like releasing the pressure that I put on myself to, you know, to not screw it up. How did you come to it? Was it your idea? Did someone say you should think about doing this? Like what were the origins of the project? Yeah. After I made the Edge of 17, I was thinking about what to do next. And it was sort of that moment where when you have a film that's well-received, you're

sort of, you're sent a bunch of stuff. But nothing was quite something where I felt like I need to write this, which is kind of what I realized I have to have that feeling in order to direct something. Because directing it, you take it on and it's just like, it's years of your life and it's a leave of absence from your personal life in a lot of ways. So I have to really, really love it. So I was thinking about the authors that I loved most of all. Um, and literally the first person who came to my mind was Judy Blume. So I started to reread her work. Um, and when I got to this, when I got to right there, got it to me, Margaret, I just was like, oh, I, I, it just, I, it just got inside me in a way that I, I remembered, I remembered it hit me as a kid, but it hit me in all new ways as an adult. And I just felt like I had to make it. So I reached out to her. Was that the first time you picked it up in a couple of decades?

Yes. I hadn't read it since I was 11 what was that like what did it did it feel the same did it feel radically different well what was weird was I expected to feel all the all the nostalgia around being that age and I felt all of that but what I didn't expect is that now I was relating to the mom and the grandma you know I mean the characters that I like I had no idea even existed when I read it the first time I feel like the adults in like it when you're when you're a kid the adults are like furniture you just don't even you don't care that they're there um and so I you know so I saw it in this whole new way and started to think about their lives and their journeys within the story. And I was also really struck by her spiritual curiosity and that search. I found it to be profound in a lot of

ways. And I think profound in its sort of like childlike simplicity, you know what I mean? She's just searching for something to have faith in, you know, which I, which was resonating to me. Yeah. Her, her books are so sophisticated, but so simple. It's really pretty, pretty wild to think about. I mean, I have a young daughter now and I'm like, I can't wait for her to be reading this work because it is, and it, and it it holds like it's surprising that it hasn't been adapted into a feature film in this way maybe you can tell me a little bit about like

why you think that is and then what your conversations with judy were like about making it a film yeah i mean i think she just had such a she just has such a wonderful way of telling the truth. It's like, she's just, she writes with such honesty and freedom. And I think that's why her work is so lasting. You know what I mean? I think when you write the truth, it's the truth. It doesn't matter what decade it is. It still feels like the truth, you know? And so when we were talking about adapting it, first of all, she was so generous and permission giving, you know, I mean, she really was wonderful in terms of saying, like, you know, it's, this one's yours, run with it. But I was also, you know, also really wanted

her to be involved in the whole process. And she was, you know, she read drafts and she, and she came to the set and, and when there were things that, you know, that I was debating, I would bring her in and say, I'm looking for something like this. Do you have any ideas? And, you know, and we'd all roll up our sleeves together. And it was, it was really, it was great to creatively wrestle with someone that i admire so much you know and watch her process you know as a relatively new feature filmmaker i wanted to ask you since we're living in the the age of ip if it was like fundamental for you to for the next thing to be something that had a kind of recognizability and if you've kind of felt that crunch because

obviously this is not a superhero movie at all but there is like a there's a story to tell around the story that you're telling and i'm wondering if you felt like you had to do something like that oh that's a really good question you know i i actually i think i would be more cognizant of that now than i was even you know right after i after I had made The Edge of Seventeen, because now it feels like there's so, there's such a bigger question about, like, is it theatrical or is it streaming? And I'm like, it's not theatrical unless it has IP behind it. There's a lot of those questions. But at the time, I honestly was just looking for something that just resonated in such a deep way that I felt like I had to write it, you know? And I just

wasn't finding that, um, in, in the stuff that I was being sent. Um, can you tell me how you found your Margaret? Yeah. Um, well, if you're something like this, it's like, you see everybody under the sun, you know what I mean? It was just like a parade of girls that age. But nobody, nobody was it for, you know, for a while. And then, and then Abby walked through the door and she was just, she was just Margaret. She was just it. I mean, she has such a, she has such a soulfulness and sort of this vulnerability and also she's really funny. But mostly I just felt like I looked at her face and I just rooted for her. Like I just wanted her to be okay. I don't, you know what I mean?

It just, and she's, you know, and she's wonderful. And she's quick on her feet too. Like that's really important to me, especially with kid actors is I'm, I'm always improvising with them. I'm always saying, okay, there's your, I know that's your monologue, but now, uh, forget it completely. And, and just say it in your own words, you know, how did you learn how to direct young people then? Cause I, you know, obviously you worked with teenage girls on your first film and this isn't even younger set and directing children. There are some people who warn you against it. There are some people who say it can be the most meaningful experience.

Like, how do you do it? Yeah, I am always looking for sort of like a messy reality. I like things to feel really off the top of everyone's head. So honestly, a lot of what I'm doing is like encouraging them to color outside the lines and play around, you know, and that's the way I like to work with kids because I don't I think especially kids like they can get into that kind of like cadence that sort of like memorization cadence where it has that you know what I'm just always trying to have them forget what's on the page and just understand who they are as a character and play from there. And obviously we get the script, but then I get all sorts of other stuff and then pull it together in the edit. Like I'm looking for little gems that feel like, Ooh, that feels real or special or original in some way. And then, and then I'm like, um, threading it together in the edit. That makes me think about something I was wondering about the making of this movie, which is kind of like nailing the tone because it is a little bit of a neither fish nor fowl thing. And if it went too far in one direction, it could be like a Disney channel kind of a movie. And if it went too far in another, it could be like a kind of like lump

in period piece and it's light on its feet, but it's very serious. So I was wondering if you could talk to me about like writing and maintaining that during the production. Oh, I think that's such a good question because I think like, I always think tone is everything. And, and especially when you're trying to, to do this specific tone, which is, I guess, you know, what you could call sort of a dramedy tone. You know, I always feel myself on a high wire when I'm doing it because I do think it's like, you can,

you can only push the comedy so far before you sort of fall off a cliff and you can't, you can't get back to a place of like, of sincerity and drama, you know what I mean? And, and, and the other thing is true too, like if you sort of go too far the other direction, so it's very, you know, I, I, I, I feel myself on a tight rope while I'm doing it, you know, um, uh, both while we're on set, but especially in the edit. I mean, that's where, that's why I get a lot of choices because I like to find like where the outer limits are. And so, you know, so on set, I do a lot of takes. I love to try and play and, you know, and encourage people to, the actors to do things that are, you know, that are crazy and

that are bad ideas. I love being like, do you have, you know, uh, that are crazy and that are bad ideas. I love being like, do you have, you know, do you have any idea? Let's do it. I don't care. Like, I don't care how crazy it is. I'm going to have bad ideas. Let's all just like, uh, create with that kind of freedom. Um, I, I like, I like to be, um, I like to be given that sort of, that sort of freedom when I'm working. so i like to give other people that and then and then we and then we find it in the edit i feel like the dramedy is a little bit of a lost art do you do you feel like it's hard to get people to understand what you want to do when you're trying to make some of these films because edge of 17 lives in a somewhat

similar place yeah yeah i uh i do i mean i i have to say I think like anytime somebody asks me like oh you know what are you working on and I have to describe it in like two sentences I'm always like oh because I hear those two sentences out loud and I'm like oh god it doesn't capture it at all I don't know how I don't know you know um I think when you're in like I think when you're in like, I think when you're in a more, I don't know, like when you're in a genre, it's like easy. It's almost easier to just like do your elevator pitch. Whereas this, I always struggle.

And I'm like, oh God, I get nervous too. I start sweating. I'm like, ah, let's not talk about it. Just read it. Can you tell me how you nabbed Hans Zimmer for the score of your film? That's a name I did not expect to see in the credits. I know, totally. Yeah, well, first of all, I feel so lucky to have him aboard.

And part of that is because he has a longstanding relationship with Jim Brooks. But even so, I was like, look, you know what? If this is not something that's for you, I totally get it. But he really, really, really wanted to do it. And I think it was so interesting because having conversations with him about the score, it's so enriching. I have to say, he talks about character in a way that just inspires me. And I feel like it's also wonderful because I don't know anything about how music is created. Like, honestly, it feels like magic to me when I watch it happen. And so I would

sort of like just reach for words to, you know, to describe sort of what I was hoping for. And, um, and, and we would just have a conversation about what it's about and what it's saying about life. And then, and then he would go off and he would, he would write something and I go, how the hell did you do that? How, how did you put this conversation that we had into a sound that makes me feel what we were talking about? I don't understand. I don't know. So that was a really, really wonderful process. It's pretty amazing. He's such a cool guy too. He was on the show a couple of years ago and I agree hearing him talk about his artistry in an unpretentious but very sophisticated way is really cool. It really is.

It really is. And I think he's the most quotable man on earth too. Like he just comes out with these, the way he strings words together. I'm like, he's a writer in a way, you know, anyway.

Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, you saying you identified in part with the, the mother and the grandmother of the film is a huge reason why the movie works so well i felt like rachel mcadams and and benny as well benny safty are so perfect in this film and they're wonderful again in another way like you could these could have been overqualified actors for a lesser movie but in there they fit really well can you tell me about

like why they were the people that you chose for this? Yeah. Well, you know, it was really important to me in adaptation to expand all the adult characters. So they're like seeds of their journeys in the book. But it was really important to me to give them to step out of Margaret's perspective and actually see, especially the women kind of in their own life transitions in tandem with Margaret. And particularly when it came to Rachel, I just think she has this incredible ability to convey so many different layers of emotions and often without saying a word. And I don't know. I mean, I just I don't know how she does that. But I have to say, like, I think motherhood, I'm a mom, is very layered emotionally. I have so many different feelings about being a mom. Like I love my kid

with all of my heart and I have so much maternal guilt over like the, the time I, cause I work a lot. You know what I mean? In the time that, that I times that I'm not home with him enough. Um, I like, I'm constantly wondering if I'm doing it right. I'm, I'm trying really hard. I like, I'm constantly wondering if I'm doing it right. I'm trying really hard. I don't know. And I think she's able to, I think she just captures that in such a beautiful and truthful way. And I saw elements of that in all of her work. And so she just, she knocked me flat again and again in this film.

That was the word I was thinking about with her performance is especially, you know, be sitting next to my wife as she goes through some of those exact same feelings. I was like, this is a very true portrayal of the confusion, second guessing, you know,

the like needing to have all the answers, but knowing you don't know the answers for your kids is such a crazy. I thought you did such an amazing job with that whole conceit. Oh my God. I, I like, I swear, I feel like as a mom, the stakes feel so high to me. Like I did, I, I feel as if I'm like a brain surgeon with, with, with someone's head open on my table. And if I make one wrong move, move i'm gonna screw them up for life and it's like that i i never i never stop feeling those stakes you know what i mean and so i think you know yeah yeah so do you have i have a daughter yeah i have a daughter okay okay yes yeah she's she's young but uh the don't do anything wrong ever.

Don't set the wrong example ever. Don't say a word you shouldn't say. But I mean, I could feel you channeling that in the character. And I think it's part of the reason why adults will probably click with this film. And you've kind of made a movie that, you know, you hear this about like Pixar movies a lot, right? It's like a movie that parents like to take their kids to because parents like those movies too. But this is a really good example of a live action version of a film like that where you could see parents and kids relating simultaneously. And that also feels kind of rare. You know, I don't, I can't think of a ton of examples in the last 10 years that that is true.

Oh, thank you. Cause that, that is exactly what I hoped for. Like, I hoped that it would be something where you, you know, you would go expecting to, you know, remember what it was like to be Margaret, but then hopefully have this more, you know, immediate relating to, to, to Barbara, you know, especially those of us who, who grew up with the book. Yeah. And also just to say, just to go back to Benny Softy, I, I just like, I'm so, I'm such a fan of his, I'm a fan of his as a director. I love, I love, love, love their films. And also just as an actor, he's so, he has such a naturalism and such like a seamlessness that I like I I just um it was such it was just a thrill to watch him work you know yeah he's he's a great guy so it was funny to see him in a film that is not psychotic for a change yeah I love also that people are like Benny Safdie isn't are

you there gotta be Margaret like people are their minds are blown i sort of love that i love that part too you mentioned the um the theatrical versus streaming conundrum that is presented to i i imagine a filmmaker that's in your position kind of regularly obviously are you there got it to me margaret is going to be a theatrical film as you go forward now do you find yourself having to make hard decisions based on the way that you want your movies to be seen? Yeah. I mean, I,

it bums me out that like theatrical has become this, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's become something that's like tent poles and all, you know, but I don't,

but then I sort of, I keep hearing maybe it's swinging back the other way, you know, like maybe we've reached the peak on that. And, and now, um, we're going to start seeing more of these kinds of like mid, mid range films. Um, yeah, I, I don't know. I have this conversation with myself a lot and I, um, I don't, I, there are certain films I actually like love watching at home. Um,

so I think that there's like a place for that. And I think I may, you know, There are certain films I actually love watching at home. So I think that there's a place for that. And I think I may, you know, I think it will sort of depend on the project, whether it feels like this is something I think is meant to be intimately viewed at home or should be viewed collectively. It was very clear to me that this one, I felt like I really wanted it to be viewed collectively. I wanted it to be something that like inspired people to tell their own stories and like walk out of a theater and laugh about their own stuff and go to dinner and, you know, and, um, and reminisce. Um, like I wanted it to be connecting, but I think other films, you know, um, it's okay to watch it on your computer with your headphones and just sort of have like

a moment with yourself, you know? Do you know what you're doing next? So I have, there are a couple of things that I'm circling and I'm thinking about, but I haven't committed yet. And part of it is because like, I really feel like as a creative person, I feel like I need to go be a human being for a second. Like I have to just go stop being on output and be on input for a while and just get inspired and connect with people. You know what I mean? Like I need that for a second. So I'm going to try to give myself that before I decide. Did you do that after I did 17? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. I did that for, um, you know, yeah. Cause it wasn't, I think it took me a year to commit to, to this, to,

to Margaret, but now it's been several years because there was a, you know, between the pandemic and, you know, and a whole, and other stuff. It just, you know, it took a while, but, um, but yeah, that was also a strange experience. Cause I sort of went from like nobody, I went from complete obscurity to suddenly, you know, being offered all these different things. And so I felt like sort of the first few months I was just like, my full-time job was just like reading incoming material, which I, which in hindsight, I don't think was probably like

a good use of my time. I probably should have just been spending it thinking about like what do I really want to write you know what do I really want to say um and so that's I think what I'll be doing this time more I like I trying to kind of um navigate this next period in a in a way that feels that feels like more it feels like it makes more sense to me. Yeah, I'm always curious about a filmmaker's ambition and some filmmakers are very schematic and goal-oriented and some are just like,

I'm just, it's one movie at a time and I can't really think beyond that. And so it sounds like you're more in the one movie at a time mind state. I am. And I always like admire the people who have like 10 plates spinning and they're like, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, I like, I'm like, wow, how do you do that? My brain doesn't quite, my brain doesn't work like that. Yeah. I feel like I'm like, I have to dive into something and then, and then I become obsessed about it. You know what I mean?

And I'm like, I, it's, it's, I eat, sleep and breathe it, you know, until it's done. Do you have any angst about like losing momentum or anything like that? Cause that's the other thing that you hear is people are like, if I take my foot off the wheel or my foot off the gas, I should say, or my hand off the wheel, then I won't have another opportunity. You know? I think that's a, I think that's like a real thing that people worry about. And, um, you know, I am more worried about doing something that I don't think I'm really the right person to do and making a shitty movie. And then no one gives me a shot. And then I'm like, why did I do this? I did it out of pressure. I did it because I felt like if I don't make something, they'll

forget about me. Like I would rather just take my time and like find the thing and, you know, and then, and roll the dice that way. And I'm also kind of like, I've really, you know, maybe this is crazy and I'm the only person who like feels this way in this business, but I'm also kind of like I really you know maybe this is crazy and I'm the only person who like feels this way in this business but I'm really like if I'm meant to make another one and like there's something that I really need to say um you know I'll hopefully it comes together and I'll be able to do it but like I don't know if it gets down the line and everyone forgets and no one wants to make it then I'll go do something else like I feel like I'm a writer through and through I'll always write I'll probably I'll write in some other capacity um yeah I just I want to I want to make things

that I care about like that's that to me is like the ultimate um that's that's where my joy is you know what I mean and I know that like the work is too hard to do something I don't care about. You are way too humble and ethical and normal, I think, for the business. That's how you see things. I don't know how. Yeah, I know. I don't know how long I'll last, to be honest. I like the idea of you being a real killer. But in this interview, you're just like, yeah, you know, we'll see what happens. But in the boardroom, you're really slashing throats. Kelly, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen?

Have you seen anything good lately? Oh, my God. Yes. I just saw. Well, I saw the third episode of Succession. I haven't seen the fourth. So don't tell me anything. But that was just perfection on every level. Both seasons of The White Lotus, I thought were mind-blowingly beautiful and perfect and so inspiring to me. I mean, so I, I love when that happens. I love when I watch something and it just makes me desperately want to sit down and write. And that's what happened to me with, with both of those. Are you going to betray me and make TV instead of movies?

You know, I'm, I'm, I, that's one of the things that I'm thinking about is a limited series for an idea that I have. Yeah. Well, that breaks my heart, but also I totally understand. Kelly, thanks so much for doing the show and congrats on the film. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks.

Thank you to Kelly Freeman Craig and thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Next week on The Big Picture, we will talk about a new genre invention from me and Chris Ryan. Let's just say Guy Ritchie is involved.

We'll see you then.