The Big Picture - Top Five Gen X Director Debuts, the Fate of ‘Black Widow,’ and a Potential Oscars Disaster

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Sean and Amanda dive into the news about the new release strategy for Disney’s long-awaited ‘Black Widow’ and what it means for movie theaters (0:16). Then, they look at the results of the WGA and PGA awards, and the complications of the forthcoming in-person Oscars ceremony. Finally, Sean is joined by Brian Koppelman—cocreator of ‘Billions’ and cowriter of ‘Rounders,’ ‘The Girlfriend Experience,’ and ‘Ocean’s 13’—to discuss the top five directorial debuts of filmmakers born between 1960 and 1980 (27:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Brian Koppelman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join Justin Charity and Micah Peters in Sound Only as they discuss their deepest, darkest thoughts about the millennial lifestyle, rap music, video games, anime, YouTube, social media, and their underlying themes. Check out Sound Only on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about beginnings and endings. Later in this show, I'll be joined by my old friend, Brian Koppelman,

the co-creator of Billions and the co-writer of movies like Rounders, The Girlfriend Experience, and Oceans 13, among others. I asked Brian if he could do any top five in the world, what he would pick, and Brian landed on a nifty idea. Top five directorial debuts

for filmmakers born between 1960 and 1980. So essentially the best introductions to Generation X directors. I hope you'll stick around for that. But up top, Amanda and I are looking at the results of the Producers Guild and the Writers Guild Awards, how they might impact the Academy Awards, which is now just four weeks away. We're in the home stretch. But first, Amanda, let's talk about the big announcement from Disney this week. We had been, or at least I had been, anticipating the film Black Widow.

Had you been anticipating Black Widow? Listen, I will watch it and try to enjoy it when I am able to. Like, I'm not against. I wouldn't say I'm vociferously pro either. I just, it's this world that I live in. So we're going to be living in a Black Widow world, not until July 9th, because that's the new date for this film. However, the film is not going directly to movie theaters, as we suspected.

It's going to Disney Plus Premier Access, which means it probably will cost $29.95 to watch at home. It'll also open in movie theaters. But this is a pretty radical decision. Obviously, the MCU is the surest bet in theatrical movie going. So there was some outcry about this. There were some other also announcements around the Disney movie slate in the coming year. A bunch of movies got pushed back. We also saw that Cruella is additionally arriving on May 28th on Disney Plus in this same premier access approach. What do you make of this Disney shift? I feel for the theaters and especially the smaller theaters who I think were hanging their entire financial futures on these movies exclusively coming back to to theaters and I think it changes their their

outlook though maybe it confirms their outlook you know I don't really know I think that industry-wise, that's the big consequence. I'm curious to hear what you think it means for the MCU. I mean, my first instinct was like, oh, is Black Widow bad? And I don't think it is. I think they just have figured they have something going with WandaVision and now Falcon and Winter Soldier, which all of the fans seem really jazzed about because it's like mainstream MCU is what it seems like. And they just want to keep that going and they can't wait anymore. But perhaps you as someone who, you know, stays up at night reading message boards about this stuff, have a different

interpretation. For me, I'm like, cool, I'll just watch it at home. Seems easier. Yeah. Generally, I feel that way. There was an interesting piece in the Washington Post that Steven Zajcik wrote where he spoke to some theater owners about this decision. And I thought one quote in particular spoke to the concern that you're citing about theater owners and the folks who work in theaters. And this man, William Barstow, who runs a movie theater in Omaha, Nebraska, said, I honestly feel kneecapped. Disney is our lifeblood. We couldn't be any more committed to this Black Widow thing happening. How can you do that? It just feels unfortunate. And that's the thing is because of the way that the movie going experience has evolved, some might say for worse, some might say for better, the MCU drives a lot of business.

Event movies drive primarily almost all of the business to multiplexes and even to these independent theater houses. So it's obviously very upsetting for them. I think it's all about, as Disney has said in several earnings calls, kind of meeting the customer where they are. And that's something you've talked about a lot on the show over the years when we talk about Netflix. And so this is going to be meeting the customer where they are. And that's something you've talked about a lot on the show over the years when we talk about Netflix. And so this is going to be meeting the customer where they are. As far as what it means for the MCU, it just seems like they couldn't wait anymore. You know, they couldn't sit on this movie. July 9th will be almost exactly two years. I think it'll be two years and a week since the previous MCU movie was released. That wasn't even a Disney film. It was Sony's Spider-Man movie. But they've been waiting a long time to continue to tell this story, so much so that they had

to start their two television shows before they got to put this movie out in the world. And because of this serialization and the way that they tell these stories, they kind of eventually just have to get this stuff out into the world. I'm looking forward to Black Widow. I don't think it necessarily indicates that Black Widow is bad. I think it just means that we're potentially in a new reality. Now, a handful of other films got pushed as well. And it sounds like we're now going to have four MCU movies in the span of about six months, which is pretty intense.

Obviously, that pileup was inevitable given what's been happening with the pandemic. But most of those movies are now pegged not for Disney+, but for strict theatrical moviegoing. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens with the vaccines. We'll see what happens with whether audiences are excited about returning to movie theaters. I'm desperate to get back into a movie theater, honestly. I'm desperate to get vaccinated, and I'm also desperate to get back into a movie theater. So we shall see.

You think this will be the last time we see a Marvel movie on Disney Plus Premier Access? No. I mean, that's the thing is that I do think that this is both a really specific adjustment because of the strangeness of the world in 2020 and 2021 and vaccines and COVID and everything that you just mentioned. And I think also it's a confirmation of what the world will look like in one year or two years or five years. I was surprised that they made this particular change because it did seem like they were using Black Widow as a transition back into theaters. And honestly, like as a lifeline for, you know, some of the theaters, like the theater owner, you whose quote you read, which is just like, I mean, that's devastating. That's a that, that's devastating. That's tough. And so that they

kind of backed away from that short-term strategy was surprising to me, but long-term, I mean, we will be watching movies in our homes. Yeah. It seems like what's going on right now is there is a reluctance from all of the studios to be the first one to come out with the movie that will open theaters again. Now, theaters are open in most cities in America right now at small capacity, and some movies are going to theaters. For example, it's a bit of an issue for us on this show. The movie Nobody, the new Bob Odenkirk revenge thriller, this transformational Bob Odenkirk movie that's very much in the spirit of Death Wish, is a pretty fun movie. I saw it. I'd like to cover it on this show.

I think you might find some of it fun and some of it a little bit upsetting. It's, it's ostensibly a perfect movie for us to talk about on the big picture, but I just don't get the sense that a lot of people are gonna be able to see this movie. So I'm like, well, let's just wait until it comes to VOD.

Cause that's the new viewing pattern. And that's the way that the release schedule works and movies like fast nine or the new James Bond film or top gun or, you know, pattern and that's the way that the release schedule works and movies like fast nine or the new james bond film or top gun or you know black widow these movies are not coming out the studios are reluctant to put those movies directly into movie theaters as the primary viewing space so we'll just have to wait and see who blinks and presumably this is black widow's going to stick now because they have an at-home experience set up. Shall we talk about the Oscars and where award season is headed?

Sure. How are you feeling? Are you optimistic? Are you buoyant about award season? We've got four weeks left. You and I are going to have to make a choice. And I think listeners of this show are going to have to make a choice as well. Because you and I are about to share some facts. Let's be real it's it's not a positive

outlook on the way the Oscars show is gonna go and the the stakes and the level of interest it's not you know every year Sean you um get very nervous about the ratings and you're just like what if we nominated five MCU movies for Oscars? And then people like would care again. Yeah. You know, that's true. It's an exaggeration, but, um, this like desperate need for the Oscars to be at the center of all conversation, um, for them to matter, which like, actually that's how the world works. They do need to, people need to pay attention for them in order for them to command attention and be meaningful. And I think they're going to get less attention this year.

And a lot of people are understandably very nervous about that for a lot of different reasons and motivations. But you and I, as people who watch this stuff and who are interested in it, we have a choice to make. Are we going to be really negative and be like, this sucks, but we're talking about it anyway. Or are we going to be like, well, let's see, you know, here we are and we're going to make the best of it. And we're not usually people who are like, let's make the best of it. But I am a little bit like, if they don't matter, then why are we talking about them? So let's, let's decide that they matter much like the theme of the Oscars, which is stories matter, which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard with all respect to my one true person, Steven Soderbergh. Yeah. Well, you're right. We do have

a choice to make and, and, and I choose darkness. I always choose darkness if I happen to make a choice between the two. No, I listen. I think that there's a lot of good stuff that's going to come out of this Oscars and this award season. We saw the WGAs and the PGAs gave out their awards over the weekend and then last night, Wednesday night. And I would say that the results were not surprising. For the WGAs, original screenplay went to Promising Young Woman and Emerald Fennel, and adapted screenplay went to Promising Young Woman and Emerald Fennel and adapted screenplay went to Borat's subsequent movie film. You might be saying to yourself, why didn't Nomadland win one of these awards or maybe Minari? Neither of those movies were eligible because the WGA has some somewhat arcane rules. So those were not shocking and perhaps indicate the direction that the screenplay awards are going to be going. And then at the PGAs, we got the least surprising outcome, which is that Nomadland won. And the PGAs have predicted

15 of the past 20 Best Picture winners. And it sure feels like we are rowing straight into a Nomadland sweep across the board at the Oscars. And so there's very little intrigue right now around Best Picture. That's not the worst thing in the world. I'm a huge fan of Nomadland. I've been talking about it on this podcast for nine months. I feel very happy that a lot of people are seeing it. I think Chloe Zhao is a great director. And I think it's telling a story that's meaningful about real people and also creative people.

And so I don't want to splash cold water on the accomplishments of the people who worked hard on their films. And I don't want to make this a boring podcast about two people complaining. That's not really my goal here. But it's important to draw attention to your show. It doesn't matter what kind of show you're making. It doesn't matter if you're making a podcast. It doesn't matter if you're on TikTok. It doesn't matter if you are programming a network in 1974. If it's an award show, it doesn't matter. You have to draw attention to it. You have to find creative ways to do that. Now, it's going to be very hard to do that through the races because most of the races seem highly decided. And this has been an elongated season. So it's been decided not just for 12 months, but for 16 months. So that's a huge issue. In addition to that, there's an interesting complexity with the show itself this year.

What have we learned about the way that this show is going to be organized in Los Angeles on April 25th? So last week, I believe while you and I were watching the Snyder Cut for the first and only time that we watched the Snyder Cut, the Oscars producers,

who are Steven Soderbergh, Stacey Scherr, and Jesse Collins, sent out a letter announcing the rules for the new show. Here are the main takeaways. Number one will be mostly held at LA's Union Station, which had been rumored, but that was confirmed, and that Zoom acceptance speeches would not be allowed. No Zoom whatsoever. And here is their reasoning. We are going to great lengths to provide a safe and enjoyable, in caps, evening for all of you in person, as well as for the millions of film fans around the world. And we feel the virtual thing will diminish those efforts.

You know what? That's true, because you and I sat through the Golden Globes, and I sat through the Emmys, and we've sat through some other things. And I think the prospect of a lot of weird Zoom rooms and technical difficulties fills everyone with intense dread. So I like that they're taking a big swing. I think you have to have vision. You have to do something interesting or else people really won't care.

And we've seen what works and doesn't work. And also people are just kind of like in her to zoom at this point. But obviously that creates some real logistical difficulties because the world is not solved. We did, we didn't fix everything. Things are possibly looking better. And I, you know, hope everyone listening, I hope you're healthy. I hope your family's healthy. And like, I hope everyone can get a vaccine very soon. But we're not there yet. And we're especially not

there internationally. And as we mentioned over and over on this podcast, the Academy is an increasingly international organization. And many of the nominees are not here in the United States and thus would have to circumvent international travel regulations in order to attend the ceremony in person. And that's a tricky one. It's going to be a real challenge. I don't know how they're going to necessarily pull that part of it off. There seemed to be, I guess, something of a backlash to this. I will say on friday after we finished our marathon recording of the snyder cut pod also just great engagement on that pod

thanks everybody out there for listening thanks for listening to all four hours and five minutes you guys are the true heroes you're the true supermen the true batmen the true wonder women anyhow um a handful of people who follow this stuff closely emailed me and were like this is wild that they're doing this this is not going to go over well. There's a lot of persnickety people out in the world who want to be able to do things the way that they want to do them. Hollywood is a very sensitive and illustrious and privileged group of people. And so they don't like the idea of being told that they have to do something in a specific way. And then in some cases, I think you're right.

I think there are some filmmakers, you know, Emerald Fennell and Thomas Vinterberg don't live in America. They live in Europe. And so they have to find their way into America and quarantine in order to make this happen. And they both were asked about this decision and they talked about it. And, you know, of course, they would love to be at the Oscars. They're both first-time nominees. It's a huge deal. And I think it will be better for the show to see humans together. I thought that was an effective part of the Grammys. What little I saw of the Grammys, I was like, that is Jay-Z and Beyonce sitting at a table. They're wearing masks. That's weird.

But still, they're sitting at a table prepared to receive their awards. And that certainly improves the quality of the show. I'm not sure that this is like a genuine solve for the problem of award shows, though. Because to me, award shows before this already had a lot of problems it wasn't just who's there and whether or not there's a zoom and so the thing that i've been turning over in my mind and i expect nothing less from steven soderbergh but the thing i've been turning over in my mind is this should be the weird oscars this should be the oscars where they try stuff they never would have tried before where they expand the possibility

of what this show can be and not just stick to the we're going to do in three hours and 11 minutes hand out 23 awards let four people sing tell nine bad jokes and then move on with our lives i want to see something crazy and by crazy i mean a three hour and 11 minute montage of great films what do you think well i was going to say let's write down the date and time that you said that I don't want to see all of the awards handed out at the Oscars. That's not what I meant.

We'll play it back. We'll play it back and I'm going to use it against you for the rest of time. But no, I don't disagree with you. And can we just go back to Stories Matter for a second? Sure, they do.

They matter. I just, listen, my affection and devotion to Steven Soderbergh is well documented and like possibly bordering on inappropriate, but that's okay.

I think he's a visionary and I love pretty much everything he does. And I just can't sit through like a PowerPoint deck presentation of an Oscar show, which is what Stories Matter is. Like that is meaningless.

It was meaningless when it was part of the bad Game of Thrones finale, when Peter Dinklage had to give a speech about like the power of storytelling. And it's meaningless in every meeting that we all have to sit in now being like, here is the power of storytelling to bring people together.

And you know what? Stories are powerful and I really like them and I wish that I could just watch them and not have to hear people tell me that they matter all of the time. But I just, it seems like the corporate bad old Oscars energy attached to this. And I have faith in Soderbergh

and I like that they're trying things, but that's the thing that makes me nervous. You know, just last week on this show, you were talking about the power of Greek myths and what they taught you. And now you're turning your back on stories. I'm not. I like the stories themselves. Again, I've been trying to talk to you and Chris about Dallaire's book of Greek myths, like an important childhood book for me for like a week, and no one cares. No one cares about the actual stories and our connections to them. They just want to sell you some shit. And that's fine because

you and I are selling people some shit right now. But I just, I don't want to see a single person be like, let me tell you about what happens when we tell each other our stories. Like I just, I can't do it. I have to do it every day on the internet. Please don't make me do it at the Oscars. What would you prefer that they do? What should be the approach? Because that's the thing that I can't quite figure out.

I want them to try some things. And we've pitched ideas in the past. We've said, let's do a crazy reveal where there's a countdown for which film wins best picture. We've said, let's add new categories. Over the years, we have come up with hundreds of ideas, candidly. So what could be done in this year, in 2021? Well, I do think you're underselling the appeal of having people in a room,

which is a novel thing now at 2021, that all of these people could be there and be there safely. And the rules, which are also making industry people mad, is that nominees and one guest are allowed and presenters, and that's it. And so, for example, publicists, personal publicists, not allowed at the Oscars. Do you think they're happy about that? No, they're not. Are they giving quotes about how they're unhappy? Yes, they are. But if you think about it, okay, nominees plus one guest plus presenters, that's like the A-list. That is like the cool people, the people you want to see, the people who have made stuff,

and then none of the other, like all respect to everyone who gets to go to the Oscars. But, you know, you want the famous people. So making a little more of that, I understand the emphasis on it. That still has appeal to me beyond that I can't believe I'm going to say this but you just said you don't want them them to hand out all of the awards so I can that's not what I said I can but so I can take a a one year exception step back on one of my long-held beliefs and say like make some weird montages i like i agree with you that this is the year for some for like pre-taped well-produced well-conceptualized stuff and then you flash back to all of the most famous people in the world in a room together yeah you know

there are things there are montages that are not just images cut together of north by northwest and field of dreams and braveheart i'm thinking more specifically of like you know in the past the the academy hired errol morris to make uh short documentaries and in those documentaries he asked people what are their favorite movies or what's their favorite movie going experience and from that came that very famous Donald Trump interview where he completely misreads Citizen Kane and misunderstands it and then kind of sort of predicts his own future

in some respects. And that became something that people pointed to when Donald Trump was elected president. And of course, Errol Morris, a genius, love him. We talk about him on the show all the time. But I think the Academy identifying some people like that who can create, forgive me, stories that live inside of this award show and create a new value proposition around it. I honestly am so upset with you for doing that. You're like, I agree with your idea, but don't put stories in the sentence.

I just was thinking about how I could like jump out this window. I know. Do you think we would get more engagement on this show if we rebranded Stories Matter? If we just nixed the big picture completely and just went Stories Matter? I think that would work. Because the thing is, is that people love these stories. You know, they want to hear about them. They want to hear about your story, Amanda.

Who are you? Where did you come from? What do you believe? They've proven that they do not care at all if i made you like a one of one stories matter like an nft no i'm not no well i'm sure if we want to because like why don't we just make money off of it but i'm just gonna make you a gift you know like your own personal stories matter big picture merch It says Stories Matter on the front. It's a purple sweatshirt and on the back it says

monetize me daddy. Would you do that? Would some industrious listener make that? That was a genuine laugh that you got there. Good joke. Oh my gosh.

Thank you for not fake laughing. Okay, but I aside from Stories Matter you want people to like make actual like compelling short films or montages or things within the

the show that people are like are interested in yeah the possibilities are limitless you know like let's have um let's have mads mickelson get increasingly drunk throughout this telecast you know like what's the downside we've already seen what an artful drunk he can be. Let's just do something that isn't just the same thing, but in a slightly safer pandemic era moment. And obviously, we got really excited when we heard about Soderbergh taking on the producer mantle because he is consistently one of the most creative and inventive filmmakers around. And so he's going to do something. And I don't totally know what it is i just want to make sure that because the award seems so drab this year and i think with the exception of

so the supporting actress race which is genuinely unpredictable right now most of the other awards seem kind of sort of set and so that part of the show i mean think back to the parasite moment which was you know 13 months ago now that That was, we came out of our skin. That was unbelievable. And maybe we can get it this year, but I don't really see it. But maybe I'm overestimating. Well, I was going to say, should we end on a note of intrigue? Because listen, number one, I don't know how to gamble.

And I honestly have to text my friend Katie every time I want to look at odds. And I'm like, where do I look at odds? So that's my way of saying, like, please don't put any money on anything I'm about to say. Like, do not put any money on this because I value your money and your investments. But last year was the first time in a long time where the PGAs did not accurately predict

best picture winners. They went with 1917 and then Parasite won. And so there is a very small opening here for something other than Nomadland. I don't think that it's going to happen, but it could. We do have another four weeks and that would at least be interesting.

It's possible. What do you think is sliding into the Parasite spoiler role? Minari. Yeah. I suppose that's possible. I think, again, it's a movie that was released a lot later. And obviously, it wasn't eligible at Golden Globes. And for nonsense reasons, by the way, just good luck to...

Actually, not good luck to the Golden Globes and everything that they are not trying to do to fix anything. But... I don't care about that. No luck at all or no best wishes to them but i i think that minari was really well received people are really loving it it it has um that sort of like that personal connection and warmth that i think could propel it. And once again, the Academy is a really... That's an American story, but I think that that is an American story that a large and possibly

international audience can understand as American. So we'll see. You raise a very interesting possibility there, because that would be A24 versus Searchlight searchlight of course is incredible at this work they run the best campaigns they are consistently the the the most efficient intelligent thoughtful uh studio that is that pushes films during award season and

they have an incredible track record um a24 of course like broke through with moonlight and minari has been compared in many ways to moonlight for a variety of reasons um the the scope of that film the the style of filmmaking that it employs so we'll see i think that would be exciting i i like both of those movies to me if there's no there's no lesser of two evils here which is which is a nice thing about it but everything just seems a little bit nice this year you know there's not a lot of it'd be more exciting to me if something like judas and the black messiah started making a little bit more noise i don't really see that happening at this point but i'm i'm i'm willing to be surprised i'm willing to yell on at at 9 p.m pacific on april 25. I'd love to get the chance to do that. I would just also go back

to the beginning of this conversation where we can make a choice to say, okay, a lot of films that we like are being recognized at this show. And maybe Nomadland will win and maybe Minari will win. And either way, that's a good thing. Or we can just like

complain about the fact that a lot of movies we like are being recognized without suspense. So it's how you want to spend the next four weeks. I don't know. It would be nice if some of these movies won Oscars. I'm just trying to bring a little positivity to the world, Sean. I appreciate that, Amanda. I make a choice to continue to cover this Oscars, no matter how I feel about it. And the listeners can make a choice now about whether they want to stick around and listen to me and Brian Koppelman or not.

If so, here we go. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I can't believe this has never happened before, but Brian Koppelman is on the big picture for the first time. Brian, how are you? Dude, so happy to be here with you. Really thrilled to do this.

So Brian, I hit you up a few weeks ago and I said, come on The Big Picture. Come talk to me about something you care about. You're a movie expert. You're a screenwriter. You're a showrunner. You're a director. You've done it all in this space. And you threw some ideas at me. And what that revealed was that you don't listen to the show because we had done a couple of the episodes you wanted to do. You want to talk about Marty. You want to talk about Spike. You want to talk about the Coen brothers. We've done episodes dedicated to those guys. But we tried to come up with a concept that would allow us to speak to some of your favorite filmmakers and some of my favorite filmmakers.

So what'd you pitch at me? What was the idea? Well, I said, yeah, as we went back and forth and, you know, had you asked me on, I'm sure I would have been listening to the show and maybe I listened in the beginning and then I never got the invite. So I was like, well, there are 17 ringer shows that like ask me and I'll just listen. I'll listen to, I'll listen to the masked man. So I'll listen to shoemaker talk anytime because you know what I mean? We're always going back and forth and I'll, I'll listen to you when you're on, uh, rewatchables

where I'm an honorary fucking guest co-host. First of all, dude, I'm thrilled. You know forever I've loved talking to you about all this stuff. And this is exactly, I mean, this is what Levine and I do all day long is think about this stuff and talk about it and argue about it and have these lists. We've had them going since we were kids, you know? And no and no, I thought it would be really fun way to talk about this is the best first movie by someone born in the sixties or seventies. You know, we talk so much about the women and men who were making movies in the sixties and seventies, but what about the offspring? You know, what about the people who are going to be looked at by,

by young filmmakers now as the people who inspired them in the way that I was inspired by, you know, people like the cones and Marty and Spike Lee. And, and, and this has been a great exercise for me to look at these films and also to see how many of these first movies by people I love.

I don't know. Like, I don't know. It's any know Denis Villeneuve's first film, August 32nd, On Earth. He's a great filmmaker. I didn't get a chance to watch it in this week. these people because this has inspired me to want to go and watch so many films. And I'm sure you haven't. There are a bunch that you haven't seen as well, I would imagine, even though there are so many that both of us have seen. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff here I haven't seen necessarily, or there's a lot of stuff. The debut isn't always the skeleton key into their great work.

Sometimes you can see some filmmakers are still working it out. And 60 to 80 is such an interesting time horizon for filmmakers. Obviously, you were coming up alongside some of these people that we'll talk about as a filmmaker and as a writer. And some of them became big stars in the early 90s or in the mid 90s. And some of them had to wait 10, 12, 14 get their shot so i'll be curious to see what years we pick for these first feature debut directorial efforts not necessarily screenplay or anything like that right this is the first film that these artists wrote and either wrote and directed or just uh directed you know and i, there are so many that are incredible on this list. It was so

much fun for me going through, because even though there are some films that I haven't seen, man, there are some that, you know, I know neither of us are going to pick, but, but you look at them and man, they're excellent, you know, and, and it speaks really well to this generation of filmmakers. Like, you know, I don't think you're going to pick Brick. It's on my honorable mention. Yeah, sure. It's an honorable mention film. And you could pick it.

I wouldn't think you were wrong to pick it. But I don't think you're going to pick it. But like, it showed you what the future. I remember seeing Ryan's second film, which is a more flawed film, but I freaking, I remember calling, um, uh, warning, you know, I'm not, uh, uh, I'm not name dropping. And this is like, uh, the world that I live in just cause this is what I do for a living. So I, I remember watching Ryan's second movie and calling Soderbergh and saying, I can find the email somewhere. I was like, I just saw this movie. There are things about it, but you have to see the way this guy

puts together shots. You have to see the mezzanine. You have to see what this person does. He's going to be a man. And I knew Ryan. Ryan and I have been friendly for a long time, but I was like, this shows me what he's... Even that movie, you couldn't say is perfect the one with adrian brody but it's like holy shit is this brother's bloom you're saying yeah brother's bloom that's like holy shit and that's been a really fun part of thinking through like looking at the pieces of of how and then some of these people like i'm not picking virgin suicides but like you look at sofia and she was a fully formed artist out of the gate, out of the gate. She makes this incredible film as a fully formed artist. And, um, and you can see all her films from that film, like where, where she was going. So this has been

great. Did you enjoy going through this and thinking about this? I loved it. I mean, these are obviously some of my objects of obsession, people I'm fascinated by. And there's an interesting distance. You mentioned Soderbergh. Soderbergh just misses the list here, but he's somebody who we've been living with for a really long time as a filmmaker. And Ryan is someone who I feel like Ryan Johnson is just getting started. You know, he's been making movies for 15 years. Steven has been making movies for 35 years almost. Steven makes the list, man. He was born in 63. Does he? Did I miss count? Sex, life, and videotape has to make the list because

did i did i not add steven it was steven on my list it's on my list hold on brian you can't we can't do this we can't do this list without sex lies in videotape how are you gonna make this list without sex i already fucked up see this is the difficulty of this i got it i'll have it in my i mean i don't want to spoil my five but but obviously that movie's going to be in my five movies. That's for the best. It would have been on mine if I had not realized that it was supposed to be here.

Anyhow. So Steven is a good example though, right? Because Sex, Lies, and Videotape, it came out, it felt what felt like it was in a completely different generation than Brick. You know, this is 17, 18 years later.

Totally. Oh, yeah. I mean, he, yes. And what I said to you at the beginning of this is there's no first film of someone around this generation that influenced me more than She's Gotta Have It. And that Spike is three years too old for this list or whatever. He's born in the fifties, which was a drag to me. And, and, and same, you know, the cones, even Ethan who's younger was born, I think the same year as spike 57. So they don't make the list, but and you're, you're right, Sean, the you know, it's arbitrary in a way 60, but, but Steven is certainly much closer to them in all this stuff than to Sarah Polly, you know, and in terms of just age or, you know, spirit of this stuff or Neil Blomkamp, you know, but he was born in the 60s. And so he's included in this group.

I was, it's funny. I was looking up like, it's wild to me that Jarmusch is now an elder statesman filmmaker because in the 80s, when I was in college, like seeing a Jim Jarmusch movie or John Sayles film, it was like, that's independent cinema. You know, that's the beginning of this thing. But they're now inspirations to these generations of filmmakers so i wanted to ask you about that actually because i think of somebody like soderbergh and he cut his teeth you know working on music video stuff and concert films yeah yeah the yes concert film was the first thing that he edited and shot yeah

and a lot of these guys a lot of the people that i love that i talk about on this show all the time they started out in music videos and they start out in commercial work. And that's how they got their bearings in this space. And that got them their ticket to make a movie. And it does feel like that has changed over time and that a lot of the work that they did in establishing themselves either in Hollywood or in independent cinema created like a different kind of Hollywood system for filmmakers. So now the people that you find coming into the game, they make one small movie, and then they're jet streamed right up into the big time in a lot of cases, right up into the blockbuster cinema.

Just from your vantage point, was this the best possible time to enter as a young filmmaker, this, if you were born between 60 and 80? Or was it better if you were born in the 40s, better if you were born in the 20s? What do you think is the best era to have been born into? Well, in terms of being able to make exactly what you want to make in some way, I mean, it's hard to beat people who were born in the late 90s probably in terms of being able to have the means of production be so

inexpensive to get you to be able to start. I mean, it was really hard to have the means of production be so inexpensive to get you to be able to start. I mean, it was really hard to gather the resources to make an indie film now, and you can just make indie films now. You can make them if you want to. But yeah, I mean, it's hard to beat the freedom that the, well, okay, we have to really do this the right way. If you were a white man born where you came of age as a filmmaker in the late 60s and early 70s, you got to do whatever you wanted. And if you were in the cool group, then you had an incredibly wide berth of people who'd have your back, who'd get you third chances, who'd help you raise money, you had actors who'd throw in with you. But if you were a black filmmaker, or if you were a woman, or if you were transgendered and couldn't even express that, I think it was all terrible until

really kind of recently. I mean, even if I think about when PTA and Wes broke, yeah, Alison Anders kind of broke at the same time and Nicole around the same time. But I've thought a lot about why Nicole isn't considered by the masses of film geeks to be in the same conversation as PTA and Wes. And a lot of it. Yeah. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that she's a woman making, you know, in her first movie was had romance in it in a certain way, but you know, Wes's first movie has is, you know, is about these goofy teens, um, uh, who are older than, you know, and, and look, it's perfect first movie and and everything. But no, I think the best shot people have is now. And yes, if you were born in the 60s, 70s again, it's better. It was a lot better. There are a lot more women getting shots. You had Spike born in the 50s. You had Singleton. You had some people who were able to find a way by being so exceptionally great to break through. But I think this is the best time for a variety of stories to be able to be told. There's probably people making films now, young people making films now. Okay. So what were your hardest cuts here?

What were the films that you were like, I i really really want to put this on my list but it just can't crack my top five yeah right i mean i'm you know i'm staring at my top five right now and i'm staring at these films around it and um did you make a big mistake you can change it in real time this is really change it no it's that it's that yeah there are a few films that i don't know. Like, okay, I know you're going to count Reservoir Dogs, but in fairness, I'm not because it was Quentin's second feature and he made a feature before that. I think it can, I can understand why it counts. But he talks about making that first movie all the time. And so I don't know if it's, is it available? I don't know if it's available to be seen. It's never been properly distributed, which is part of the reason why I wouldn't count it. Also, he's basically, I don't know if he's disowned it, but he's disowned it as a formal part of his filmography. And that's obviously something he cares about. The number of movies he makes is something he tracks closely. Yes, absolutely. And Reservoir Dogs is first, then it got released.

So for that reason, if we counted, obviously that would be one or two on my list, but it's not on my list. Being John Malkovich is not on my list. Even though Spike Jonze, it's perfect. It's a perfect,

when we talk about, sometimes people, my friends and I will argue about the difference between a great album, a sublime album, and a perfect album. And a perfect album is one in my mind that fully achieves what the artist set out to do without any sort of holes in it at all. And there could be a perfect album that's not your very favorite album that you acknowledge. Well, they did. That's nailed. And Being John

Malkovich is nailed. You couldn't do better than that. But for me as a favorite movie, it doesn't quite get there. District 9, I couldn't argue with anybody who'd have District 9 as one of their five favorite first movies by a filmmaker. That's a towering achievement, and it's so crucially important, I think. And then I'd say Bound. Ooh, I hadn't thought of Bound. That's a good call. Bound's perfect, too. I remember sitting there in the movie theater watching Bound by the Wachowskis, and I had

to move. This is true. Did you see it in the theater, Sean? I did not. I was 14 at the time, as I recall. Right. So how old are you? I'm 39. Right. So I'm 15 years older than you. So yeah, you're 14. I'm like 29. And I go to the movies,

and it's probably right before, it is right before I start making movies. But I'm obsessively going to the movies as a fan. And I had to stand in the back of the movie. It was so tense. And if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Bound, I won't spoil anything about it, but the way that they, with very few resources and no special effects or anything, the way those filmmakers ratchet up the tension and drama. I remember looking at Amy, my wife, and just be like, I can't, I can't, I can't, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta leave. And she's like, what do you mean you gotta, I can't sit here. I can't, I can't. And I remember going to the back of the theater and just standing against the wall in the back of the theater and just like holding

the wall with my, like my fingers, like white knuckling the end of the movie. And that's like impossible to achieve. And so for its sort of like form, like the way that they achieve the effect they wanted, I find that film incredible. I'll just do a couple more because I have a very small list of the ones that I really wanted to include. Go for it. Away From Her, I think, is perfect. It's just not, it's too sad to watch over and over again. That's Sarah Polly's first film. Sarah Polly's a genius, a true genius.

Her third movie, which was the Quasar documentary, is another one of these. Stories We Tell, everybody watches Stories We Tell and nobody tell anyone what it's about. Sarah Polly's a genius. Incredible film as well. Away From Her was made so young, I can't even understand how she did it. I know Bottle Rocket's on your list.

It's not on mine, but I was okay with that. Not on my list. It's on my honorable mentions. Fine. I knew Bottle Rocket would be in the world. I'm a Rushmore guy.

That was my entry point really with Wes. And then I really had to battle out whether Walking and Talking makes my top five or not. And I think it's number six. If I'm just being fully rigorously honest, I think that Nicole's later movies were better. But I think Walking and Talking is an incredibly auspicious start to a career. And lastly, I would say this movie is just too recent for me to know, but Ex Machina might in the end be sort of like considered as good a first film as anybody can make. Also on my list, and there are a handful of people

that are, it's on my long list, my honorable mentions, the Alex Garland movie. And there are a handful of movies that are like this, guys who started out as screenwriters or in television and then got their shot. Actually, a version of this that I thought of was Anchorman. Anchorman, weirdly, is a great directorial debut. You don't necessarily think of it in the same tones as we think of quentin or we think of sofia but very similar um i also thought of kiss kiss bang bang as another version of this you know a well-known screenwriter who didn't necessarily direct a film for the first 10 or

15 years of his career but those are a little for some reason i guess we don't hold them in as high esteem for some reason you're screen you started screenwriter. Why do you think that is? Well, but I would separate Ex Machina because I would say I have nothing against those. I mean, the Anger Man question is about comedies in general and what we think of that type of comedy. But obviously, he's a great filmmaker, great writer, great producer, and that movie kicks ass. But Ex Machina to me is something else, right? Ex Machina for me, I don't know, man, it's a movie that I think about all the time and it's a movie that got the world right, understood where the world was headed, features. Anytime someone makes someone a movie star in a movie and that's it, their life is forever different, which he did in that movie, I think sets it up.

Basically, the Coen brothers had Oscar Isaac in a film, and he was announced in that film, and he became, that's how he, whatever. But he didn't become a movie star where you could just, he just jumped to the top of the A-list in terms of getting movies green lit off ex machina and that's an amazing thing that um uh garland did i don't know why it doesn't crack my top five like it's kind of amazing film do you do you disagree no he's been on the show a couple of times i love alex's work i can't wait for him to make another film. I think he's like a very unique film artist too. And that's part of, as for Ex Machina, it's the

actual, it's the filmmaking that is so staggering given that he had not made anything like that before. Which is where whereas Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is Shane Black's thing. Yes. It's his thing. And then, yeah, he directed the movie Degradure, but it's his thing. That's different. Alex Garland, for being a novelist

first of all. So he's a novelist who's only working in the imagination and on the page. And then yeah, writes a movie that Leo's in, whatever. But then suddenly fully formed, like when they talk about Joni, when Joni went and made an album, I always equate this stuff to music, you know, cause it's not what I do, but it's like the other thing that I care so much about. And, you know, Ex Machina, Garland also, like Oscar Isaac, Garland announces himself as like a titanic fucking filmmaker. Like he does. So that just misses for me an eternal sunshine. But like, because I don't love it.

Basically, if someone said that, I couldn't argue with them, that movie. I mean, again, but I can't own it as like my favorite film. What are some of your honorable mentions? Well, so you named a bunch of them. You know, you mentioned Sarah Pauly. She was on my long list.

You mentioned Rian Johnson. You mentioned Alex Garland. You mentioned Wes. You mentioned, you know, I don't have, I don't have PTA's first film on my long list. You mentioned Rian Johnson. You mentioned Alex Garland. You mentioned Wes. You mentioned, you know, I don't have PTA's first film on my list. I'm, I'm,

Don't worry. We're gonna, we're gonna get there. Okay. I had a feeling that that was part of the reason my thinking, listeners of the show

know how I feel about PTA, which is that I worship at his altar. The only other one I wanted to mention, well, I also, Albert Allen Hughes,

I think is a, had a really great one too. And Affleck. I feel like Affleck had the rare actor, is this going to be a Vanity Project debut that turned out to be a really, really good film. And he turned out to be a really, really good filmmaker. And that was much like Ex Machina came much later

into his existence and experience. Yeah, I mean, he'd already been an Academy Award winning screenwriter. Um, but, and I love that movie. God may be gone. It's great.

Also Sutton theater. But to me then, you know, he made his best work two pictures later. And, and that's, that movie's incredible. And you take Argo over the town.

Yeah. I think Argo's, I mean, the town's kick ass. Great. I've no, I got no problem with the town. Also, you know,go's, I mean, the town's kick-ass great. I've no, I got no problem with the town. Also, you know, that's my man.

I have no problem with that. But yeah, I think Argo is amazing. Great movie. I mean, they're, I listen, Ben's an ex, a superb filmmaker. I mean, there's just no doubt about it. But, but I feel like these five films that I have on this list, I mean, like I said, I think one is really going to surprise you, but I really stand by it. But they are, I mean, they're noted that it's a perfect movie. I agree it's a perfect movie. It's a movie that really spoke to me. The kind of movie that,

if you're 17 or 18 years old and that movie comes out, expands your mind into what a movie can be. I think it's one of those rule breakers that changes the form. And the only sadness I have about this movie and about Spike is that he's only made four movies. And I don't know if there's a filmmaker who I wish made more films than Spike Jonze because he's so unique. Now he's done a lot

of other stuff. He's been very productive in that time, but I care about movies. And so I wish I had more Spike Jonze movies. He's like the living John Cazale of directors. That's right. It's a short list. He's not even at five yet. No, it's true. Yeah. I know where I was. That's the thing. I have a very strange memory. I remember where I was when I saw most of these movies. I know exactly the movie theater I was in when I saw Being John Malkovich. I was making a film in Canada and I saw it in a theater in Canada. And leading up, I was working with Malkovich who I made two movies with and he did six episodes, six or seven episodes of Billions with us. And after I'd made two movies

with him and I remember working with him and he was telling me all these stories about making this film and I couldn't quite understand the whole thing. He was saying, oh, Spike would come up to me sometimes and he'd say, John Malkovich wouldn't do it that way. And I go, John, how did that make you feel? He goes, no, yeah, yeah, that made sense because he's John Malkovich. And it was great hearing him explain why Spike was right that John Malkovich wouldn't do something. And then I remember going to the theater and seeing it and just being pretty blown away by seeing Orson Bean. Every little detail is so right. I guess it doesn't make my list also because if we were doing a thing about screenwriters, the moment a screenwriter broke

into the world, like Charlie Kaufman's screenplay as the star, you got to credit Spike for recognizing it and actualizing it. And getting to use the expression Malcatraz in your life in a legitimate way, which I have, is one of the rare treats in the whole world. Like just the rarest of thrills. Yeah. Well, I see them as two artists who really needed each other. You know, Spike really was able to visualize and literalize a lot of Charlie's ideas,

which are so abstract. And that's a huge accomplishment to me. You know, Charlie's first movie is also honor roll worthy. Is his first movie Synecdoche? No, that's his second movie, man. His first movie is the one with Nick Cage about Susan Orlean. Adaptation?

No, that's Spike, right? Oh, I believe you. Okay, is that Spike's movie? Yeah. But Charlie wrote it. Charlie wrote that one also. Okay, fine. Yes, good.

That's the thing. Because then I was like, Charlie wasn't on our list. So, okay, fine. No, although maybe he should have been. I don't even know what year Charlie was. Well, Synecdoche is amazing. Crazy movie. Yes.

Incredible film. Okay. So that's my number five. That's being John Malkovich. What's your number five? My number five, I'm happy to say, is Heartache. Yeah, let's talk about it.

I mean, I, you know, which if we're going to do it for this list, we have to call it Sydney, right? I mean, we have to do the right thing here and call it Sydney. That's the title that Paul wanted it to be called. And the way he was able to defend keeping his cut of the movie was by agreeing to use their title. And he was like, if you insist on using your title, Paul, we're going to recut your movie and make it something you don't recognize. And so he took the bitter pill and took their title. I find this movie to be so great. It's a film that I want to watch all the time. And I don't

watch it every time I want to, because I want to keep the surprises in it, the little surprises in it for myself, the little joys. That opening sequence, the way the camera takes us into the diner, the initial conversation between these two men, just the way the diner is framed, the diner that he found. I get emotional talking about it and thinking about it. It's such a beautiful dawning of an artist's thing. And to me, although PTA talks about Mammoth's influence, for me, he casts off Mammoth's influence much more easily than say I do or Dave and I do. To me, he is immediately, because it's filtered through California, and it's just totally, it's different.

These characters speak in Paul's language. And every scene in that movie is rich with emotion. At the same time, it's hilarious. At the same time, it's scary. And it's really hard to have one thing done successfully in a scene in a movie. But that opening sequence is dark and depressing and fucking hilarious. I mean, you're with this guy, Sidney, and in real life, Sidney would make you either frightened or sad. You fall in love with him, and then you get the surreal moment of the pocket, and suddenly you realize you're in the hands of a

young master. The pocket thing happens, and you just can't even believe what you're watching, and it carries through. I mean, it carries through to the performance he gets out of Gwyneth. I watched the commentary many, many, many times when I was starting to make movies. And the way he talked about directing the sequences with John C. Reilly and Gwyneth, how he limited the amount of time she could go to the cigarette because he didn't want her using props and John C. Reilly too. And Gwyneth's courage to play, you know, Gwyneth's great when she plays someone very smart because obviously Gwyneth's working with a super, super, super high IQ in real life. But for her to play

somebody not as smart as she was, very brave in that spot in her career. And she does it with no ego. You know, people forget because she's so famous how great she is. It's very easy to forget that she's a great artist, but she's a great artist but she's a great artist and proof is in that movie uh and sam jackson is note perfect and of course you know philip seymour hoff is probably my favorite actor who ever lived and certainly the one i i never got to work with me as well and i wish i did and and uh i met him once tried very hard to convince him to be in a movie he wouldn't do it before he was super famous on an airplane, and I couldn't get him. What was the movie? Can you tell us?

But I got to knock on guys. I really just didn't want to do a gang. He just didn't want to do a gangster film at that time in his life. He wanted to do something else. I really tried hard, hard. But everything magical about Philip Seymour Hoffman is in this one-minute sequence. Because you see all the obnoxiousness, but Sean, don't you think you see in him the end of that sequence, what happens on that role,

that look in his eyes, man. Frailty, vulnerability. He's not, he's not, that character is not a sociopath. He's just a guy who get out over his skis and then he sees the human consequences and it's in his eyes and I see how you're smiling right now, man. And it's like just so gorgeously beautiful. And for me, the whole movie is like that.

And I just think it announced the beginning of, you know, one of our masters. And I look, for me, Phantom Thread pays off all the promise of, like. Paul did these bravura sort of

earned over the top, but he went very far afield. And then he came back and the next time he made just a hyper-disciplined piece was Phantom Thread. And I find that also to be, again, if the commercials were off-putting to you as someone, if the trailer, if you're listening to this and like, oh man, that seems like a bummer. It's like that movie is a glorious joy and you got to watch it, right? Don't you think? Yeah, I think it's so funny the way that you put it. I mean, the only other filmmaker I think of when I think of what he's pulling from, you mentioned Mamet and the writing and the crispness is obviously the Demi thing. You know, that like, that into-camera close-up

that he's doing in the diner in the first sequence where you're looking into Riley's eyes, you're looking into Philip Baker Hall's eyes and you're like, okay, this is very iterative, but it's also to his style and his taste. It's like if Scorsese and Demi made something together in a lot of ways. Well, it's iterative and it's like Demi, except, it's like Demi in something together in a lot of ways. Well, it's iterative.

It's like Demi and Silence of the Lambs when he did that. Except when the cigarette goes. Now, this is the thing. I haven't watched this movie in three years. But that moment when the camera starts moving, the cigarette goes to the ashtray. And the camera moves down. And then we're moving. And it breaks that thing.

And that's as important. Because you're sitting in that thing. And then the cigarette goes. And it's like, boom. We're off on a fucking adventure, man. And Altman as important because you're sitting in that thing and then the cigarette goes and it's like, boom, we're off on a fucking adventure, man. And Altman, right? Altman also, you gotta, if you're talking about him,

you gotta talk about Altman, I think too. But what made it not quite breach your top five? Thank you for asking. There's no scientific answer. I love that movie. I rewatched it during quarantine. I have a big relationship to it. I didn't, I didn't see it first. It was a harder movie to see if you were a teenager, you know, it was a, it was a festival phenomenon and Boogie Nights

obviously was a major smash announcement of a filmmaker. So I saw it after Boogie Nights is a little bit of a like first album, second album thing where the first album got bigger distro after the second album took off. Also, if you see that young heartache, it requires more patience. And Boogie Nights was like, oh, my gosh, holy shit. And heartache is also a bummer. Like there's a bummer aspect. It's an older person movie, too. You know, it's not Boogie Nights is about being young and heartache is about getting older and the decisions and the consequences of the choices that you make. So it's a different kind of vibe.

And imagine being in your 20s and making that movie and making Heartache and writing that Sydney character. It's incredible. Well, the short, you know, writing the short and then writing that

and knowing you're going to get Philip Baker. But even taking the whole story out of it, I just find it's, you know, so great. All right. What's number four for you number

four for me is a person who came up alongside some of these music video filmmakers that i was talking about who got his chance a little bit later it's jonathan glazer with sexy beast this is i think an absolutely incredible film very similar to garland in so far as the amount of control and style and the way that he sees the future of filmmaking and uses the tools that he acquired in the music video and commercial making days to apply to what is in some ways a very

conventional kind of gangster movie story that he extrapolates and ratchets tension much like you were talking about with Bound and has an artist's eye, but has the ability to create a propulsive movie and also gets one of the great performances of the 21st century out of Ben Kingsley, which I think took that movie from an interesting indie arthouse movie into something significantly bigger and more exciting. And he's another guy who I just

wish made more movies. And so maybe I have a little bit more admiration and kind of wonder about these filmmakers who have these short CVs because they don't have as many misses. They didn't swing and miss too often. And so you look back, you mentioned Alison Anders earlier, who debuted around a lot of those guys at the same time as part of that Sundance generation. And then she didn't get as many shots. She didn't make as many films. And then she starts to fall away in the memory. And when we start building out lists like this, we don't talk about somebody like that as much. Glazer is making another movie and it's coming out, I think either later this year or next year, which is exciting, but it's only made a handful. Now I've liked all of them, but I don't know if I've liked them as much as I like

Sexy Beast. So that's my number four. Cool. It's not a film that means anything to me at all. And I understand why you dig it. And I think he's great. It's just not a film that it just, it's taste. And that film just misses me completely. I'm surprised. I have no problem with it. Well, it could also be that's the part of this where being a filmmaker might make a certain kind of genre piece not catch my eye.

In the way that The Brothers Bloom, which is a twist on a genre, does. I just realized a film neither of us talked about. And if it's on your list, because this filmmaker was not on your master list, I don't think. Oh, I'm sure I've missed some stuff. What did I miss? No, and I forgot this until right now. But like, we have to at least mention this film because it touches this thing you were saying about someone who used to be a screenwriter, but even more so, which is Tom Ford. Oh, see, I'm a little bit lukewarm on his films.

You love his films? I am not lukewarm on his films. And for me, like the first film, I mean, the single man is, you know, I think just worth mentioning. Because I was gonna say, that's an example of something that I don't even understand how someone went and made that picture. Sort of

like the way I think about Todd Haynes, which is now all Todd Haynes' best movies, because Safe was second, I think. I'm pretty sure Safe was first. Superstar was first. Poison is second. Poison is second, right. Poison is second, because Safe would be is second right yeah poison is second because safe would be

you know as one or two on my list if that were like that's the thing there were some people who were easy to eliminate because you were like oh their first film was good

but it's not nearly as good as their second or third film and so they didn't even come up for me but I guess like to me it's like when I watch something that someone

like Todd Haynes does I kind of can't understand it. As someone who endeavors to do this, I can't understand it. I can understand what Jonathan Glazer does better in Sexy Beast in a way that it's like not as, it just doesn't inspire. He's great. I have no problem with that guy. If he wants to come direct Billions, that'd be, come on and hang out. He's great.

But he's just not my guy, if that makes sense to you. I don't think he's going to come direct an episode now that you've said this on the show. Just put it out there. So what's your number four? I'm wondering now if this might be really higher on your list.

And that'll be fun if we have some that are the same. That's okay. I think that's good if they cross over. Number four on my list is Pi. Not on my list. Wow. Not even in your honorable mentions. No, I mean, I admire it. And I really like Aronofsky and a lot of stuff he went on to do um i find i find it also very hard

to revisit it's a tough sit it's a tough sit but it is uh you know it's one of those things that when i saw it it had me up talking about it all, and it had me trying to figure it out for days and days and days. And when a movie affects me like that, especially a first movie, because he went into these... If you think about the central question in that film, it's like fucking 20 years ahead of its time. I mean, it's about an algorithmic approach to solving the stock market. And it's about how somebody trying to get at that would go crazy. And it's about numerology, and it's about

the Kabbalah, and it's about sectarian beliefs and a kind of mysticism. And he made it for nothing in black and white with his friends and nobody famous. I mean, the most famous guy in it is the guy that Tony Montana kills. And that's why Tony Montana gets killed. The most famous guy in it is the guy who was the assassin for Sosa, who Tony Montana didn't let assassinate the family. And that dude who I know his name, but I can't even remember it right now. He plays Go at the end of it. Yeah, Mark Margolis, who was also on Breaking Bad. Yeah. He's the most famous dude in the whole thing.

And Ben Shankman, I guess. Well, Ben, I was going to say, you work with Ben. You know Ben is... I love Ben Shankman. Ben's a guy now. But when I first saw that film, nobody who ben shankman was you know and um it fucking blew my mind the filmmaking control the concept the way it ends the dialogue the performances the look at kabbalah shankman you knew that's another like PTA. You knew watching that movie that you were seeing someone who is going to be one of the

most important filmmakers of his generation. And it might be my favorite one of his. No, that's not true. The ballet movies is best. Black Swan's his best movie. But but that Black Swan and the Wrestler for me are my three favorite of Darren's films. And I think Darren's some masterful film.

I don't want to go down to mother rabbit hole, but did you respond positively to mother? I'm such a huge Darren fan. Okay. It's a crazy movie. It's a very fun movie to talk about. I, I,

I wish that there was a movie like mother coming out this year. Honestly, not enough conversation like that going on these days. Uh, I, I wish that there was a movie like mother coming out this year. Honestly, not enough conversation like that going on these days. Uh, okay. So I'll go to my number three. It's Sofia Coppola. We already mentioned her,

uh, virgin suicides. Um, just obviously an incredible entrance for a filmmaker, somebody who had been surrounded by moviemaking her whole life, who also had just a perfectly defined style from jump. And you can see, I think, is it like the stars or short jump. And you can see, I think as it licked the stars,

her short film, and you can see in her short film that she's basically like honing the approach that she's going to take to the Jeffrey Genides novel. But she is very patient, very careful with the characters, very care, clearly very careful with the actors, unafraid of the quiet space,

which is something that very few young filmmakers, especially young filmmakers of this generation, are not good at. They're talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And she's not worried about that. She's not worried about over-explaining her protagonists. She's not worried about

over-explaining the theme of the film. It's a very careful, thoughtful, interesting, darkly comic movie too. I think funny in a way that maybe it doesn't get credit for as well, even though it's incredibly tragic what happens. It's just a beautiful and interesting movie. Also, she was in an impossible situation. And if you think about where she was in her life, it would break most people. And it's hard to explain just how under fire she was. I mean, she was considered to be the person who ruined the most important film franchise in history and had every reason to

just go home and do something else with her life. And instead, she found a way to dig that deep and do the thing that she did and uh that's just fucking kick-ass man so yeah it's it's not lost in translation for me is you know just as good as a movie can be and i think virgin suicide is actually perfectly executed movie it just doesn't quite make my top five but i think i can i support that being in your top five okay so what's your what's your number three yeah these these top three here are really difficult my number three which is the one that's going to surprise you actually okay because it's definitely not on your list uh is margin call oh. Oh, I love that pick, though. I mean, this is in your realm right now, though. So I'm fascinated to hear you talk about this.

I think J.C. Shander made the best, I think it's the best film ever made about business. And I think it leaves Wall Street. I love Wall Street. I know Wall Street by heart. Wall Street changed my life. You know, Oliver Stone's big influence. You guys did an episode of the rewatch of this.

Yeah, I mean, Oliver Stone's big an influence on the way that I write dialogue as anybody but Mamet. You know, towering, you can't say enough about Oliver Stone. But I guess the thing is,

and the truth is, those are the two best movies, right? Wall Street and Margin Call are the two best movies about this. On a given day, I could think either one's better.

But for what they had, I mean, every, that is a film that you, I I know almost every word to that film. I can just put it on and the central questions in it are endlessly fascinating. That movie wastes no time. Every performance in it is staggering. Every moment in it has human detail. Every moment in it has the politics of power on display, gender power dynamics, age power

dynamics, financial power dynamics. And it just completely reflects the world that we were living in. So soon after the events that it depicts, yet it feels like it was made yesterday to me. It's a completely alive film. And J.C. Shandor does not get the credit he deserves as a filmmaker. He just does not get the credit he deserves. Like he's an ignored, ignored great filmmaker. I mean, he goes and makes that Robert Redford film. It's fucking great. It's impossible. Another impossible thing to do. Just a guy on a boat with no dialogue and it's riveting. And then Most Violent Year is riveting. And just an excellent reframing of a certain kind of gangster pick without all

the huge it's actually like a cousin to heart eight in a certain way and uh but margin call the dialogue is perfect i wouldn't rewrite a word of it we shot in like 11 days and um and when we talk about a debut like that's someone who just like scratched it together, found a way, and it's got one of the great Stanley. There are, there is a performance from Stanley Tucci in the center of that film. That's good as anything you can see. And, you know, there's just that stuff's throughout, uh, uh, just throughout the movie. And I would throw out here another movie that was on my potential list, which is Station Agent was in my like thing, because in terms of performances and the tone and the thing,

there's something related Tom McCarthy's movie to it. But, but for me, Margin Call is, I don't know, I just think it's fucking great. And, and it gets everything right. It's a fantastic pick. If I'm ever having a quiet day, I just fire up the scene where Jeremy Iron shows up in the boardroom. This is like one of the great scenes the last 10 years. It's 10 year anniversary this year of Margin Call.

If you have not seen Margin Call, you gotta see it. It's a terrific movie. And it's staggering how many people showed up for that movie because the cast is gold plated. It's unreal. And Zach Kinto produced it

and is in it. And I mean, his performance in it is perfect too. And he says, you know, why did you do this? And he says,

well, it's more lucrative. I mean, it's just a great answer. You know, why'd you stop being a rocket scientist? And he said,

well, it's more lucrative. Which is in the middle of that boardroom. It's just classic. Classic film. Brilliant response to a moment in time too.

Yes. It's hard to make a movie like that that's reflecting on recent history and he does a great job uh okay my number two i'm i'll be shocked if this is not on your list is john singleton boys in the hood you got it on your list what'd you put it at number two it's my number two oh love it okay perfect um what can you say the late great john singleton obviously arrived on the scene at i mean how old was he when he made this film he was not yet 2024 that's extraordinary and this is a movie that in

many ways i think changed the way that hollywood looks at the world and announced somebody who had a very special sensitive keen eye but also really dynamic filmmaker um and the stories that he told, I can say for me, a lot of these I've been talking about, seeing them as a teenager, but seeing this movie as a teenager has a profound effect on your life

and the way that you see the world and you see the kind of movies that can and should be made. And a lot of that conversation that you were talking about, about the kinds of filmmakers who are getting opportunities now, would just would not have those opportunities

if not for a movie like Boys in the Hood. So John directed episode seven of season two of Billions. And getting to work with him is a highlight of my whole life. And David Levine, my creative partner, says the same thing. Hearing John talk about making this movie, the movie's impact on me is complete. It ruined me. I saw it like three nights in a row in the theater. And I picked the moment when I showed it to my kids. The thing is, there are a lot of movies that have a message. There are a lot of movies that try to make a point.

The thing is, Singleton knew he had to make a movie. That was an incredible rollercoaster ride of a film. He had to make you love these characters. He had to make you love this world. He had to make you love this father and son. He had to make you want to ride with these guys in the car in order to show you the nihilistic lives they were forced to live, the emptiness. And there are things in that film that I think about constantly

as a person and then also as a filmmaker. I cannot think of a better performance than Larry Fishburne gives in that movie. How Larry Fishburne doesn't have an Oscar from that movie is a crime against like nature. When he is playing with those uh gold balls in his hand what do you call

those things whatever those things are called ball bearings like those ball but they're big ball bear they're like big ball bearings yeah when he's like playing with those as he's waiting for that night to come to come down and when his son gets out of the car. And I mean, just everything is built perfectly. John, 24, right? So John writes the part for Ice Cube. I'm sure he's told this publicly, but he actually just told it to me. It was Ice Cube, who's as important a figure at the time as you could have in the community.

He writes the part for Cube and Cube comes in and blows the audition. He makes him read and he blows it. And John's a kid and Ice Cube is Ice Cube. He hadn't really acted before other than in the videos, but he's made America's Most Wanted. He's made all the NWA albums. Right before Death Certificate.

And he has ice cube come in and he says you blew this i wrote this movie for you and you blew it but this is my one shot so you have to go home now and you have to prepare you have to this is what the scenes are about there's a real thing go the fuck home and start you better say to the ice cube go the fuck home and study. Imagine staying at the Ice Cube. Go the fuck home and study and come back tomorrow. And then Cube came back and did the thing. And he got him in. Have that presence of mind. And I'll say John Singleton's the most prepared director I ever worked with.

He is. I miss him so much. We were slated to do a project together. And he was supposed to fly into New York to meet with Dave and me the week that he died. And I was talking to him a lot and I missed the fuck out of that guy. And I am so glad I got to tell him how much that movie meant to me and my family. And that's absolutely deserves to be number two or number one on this list. 51 years old when he passed. Just a shame. There's so many more great movies he would have made terrible

um okay number one number one number one is quentin number one is reservoir dogs i you know reservoir dogs changed my life i've talked about it on podcasts for years totally changed my relationship i probably would certainly not be doing it this podcast or really anything at the ringer if not for for reservoir dogs and quentin. And I think as much the way that the movie reorganized my brain chemistry and got me excited about a certain kind of kinetic filmmaking and a certain kind of dialogue writing, I think also the mythology that came with that movie was very impactful on me. And I think a lot of these filmmakers that we're talking about here were able to benefit in a way from the kind of narrativization of their entrance into this world.

And, you know, you and I obviously also really look up to the 60s and 70s filmmakers and the new Hollywood. And this was as close as I was going to get to that in my lifetime. And so I think being at that time and also just that film still holding up in a way, the way that it is still a propulsive

and carefully engineered movie made for a very small sum of money i think is still very inspiring to people who go back and check it out for the first time so um you know you've talked about quentin a lot over the years and the impact that he had on you too but um i don't know when's the last time you looked at Reservoir Dogs you know I you and I could reenact it now I have no it belongs number one on a list like this and it would have been number two

on my list probably would have bumped Boys in the Hood back to three if I counted as the first but I'm glad you put it there you know I think it's his fourth or fifth best film. That's an interesting list to make now in the light of day. You have different feelings about this.

You had a Twitter thread about this recently, I feel like, and you were very- I feel like Bastards is number one pretty clearly and Pulp Fiction is number two pretty clearly. I agree. The arguments are just all after those two. And I understand why someone would flip them for the import and everything, like what they did to the world. I mean, Pulp Fiction, I saw in 94 in this theater the night it came out. And that's

probably when I made the promise to myself that I would find a way to become a filmmaker. Like that movie changed me. I was just a different person, walked in, walked out totally different. Everything was different. The second that the rectangle was on the screen, everything was different for me. I can't overstate it. There's no overstating the effect that it had on me. It had as big an effect as something could have. And Reservoir Dogs, I loved, but I didn't see it in the theater. Levine saw it in the theater. He kept telling me I had to see it. I had read Quentin's Natural Born Killers script first, which I hate the movie, but I love the script, Quentin's script of Natural Born Killers, which is about the sacrament

of what these killings were, a testament to their love. And Stone has them cheating on each other. They don't cheat on each other in Quentin's thing. It's totally different. So I was a fan fan and I loved romance. I was a fan and I loved Reservoir Dogs, but it, it, it, it's not the film of Quentin's that made Quentin like, you know, someone who's so important to me, what made him so important to me was Pulp Fiction. And then, you know, in a way where he's one of those people who's always in your head.

Okay. So you've been teasing your number one. I actually don't know where you're going. Has it come up? Has your number one pick even been mentioned thus far? Sex, Lies, and Videotape. Oh, of course. Of course, it did come up.

It's Steven Soderbergh. You know Steven very well. You've worked with him a few times now. Yeah, three times. So tell me about your experience in seeing it for the first time. And also, when you have a relationship with a filmmaker like this,

how much are you asking him questions about making something like that? Ceaselessly. Ceaselessly asking him questions. Um, so I saw Sex, Lies, and Videotape. I was not in the film business. I had never been to a movie premiere. I'm trying, I was in the record business and a friend of mine handed me an invitation the day before to the Ziegfeld. I was a movie freak like you. I saw everything, but I hadn't been to a premiere of my own power, maybe some relative had taken, but I hadn't really done this. So guys like, hey, there's a movie that a friend of mine

is involved in the movie company. And I can give you a ticket if you want to take your girlfriend to the Ziegfeld, which is the best theater in New York. It's called Sex Lesson Videotape. And I remember taking this invite. I'm like, all right, well, that seems like a thing to do. Why not? I had no idea what I was going to see. So this was the first screening after Sundance in New York once it was a thing. Imagine seeing that intimate story projected like that at the Ziegfeld on that gigantic screen, those plush seats in that setting. And just 1989, right?

And I'm a year out of college, maybe not even quite a year out of college. So it's just the perfect moment to start really going down this road of understanding what an auteur filmmaker was. And I saw She's Gotta Have It in College. That's another movie I saw three times in a row. I saw Raising Arizona in college. But those were kind of like the indie movies that I cared about. And then Sex, Lies, and videotape is what sent me back to the Jim Jarmer. That's what sent me to independent movies. That is what sent me to the movie theaters. Like

that's what got me searching for other kinds of movies instead of the movies that I would just see over and over again. That's what got me wanting to watch a different kind of film and spend so much time and energy finding them and watching them and learning about them. I'm so young, 22 or something, 23, and it's like, oh, that's what I'm going to do in my free time. It's like, I'm going to go see all these movies that led to this dude making this movie. And then reading his book, which is still one of the greatest books, if you're interested in film at all, the book has the screenplay in his journal uh and um sitting on that shelf back there it's perfect it's a perfect book and it's okay it's it tells you everything you need to know really and

um it's one of those films sean when it ended you know i just remember sitting in my seat everyone's getting up and they're all talking to each other and because it's like a you know premiere suck where everybody's like just there for i remember sitting there with this girl I was dating and like not moving out of my seat really. And just sort of like letting the whole thing wash over me. The performances are the career best performance for each person. Annie McDowell, Laura San Giacomo, Spader, Gallagher, all four of them are great all the time.

Only Spader's ever touched the level of performance again that he had in that film. The writing is razor sharp. The spirit of artistic and creative risk is at a level 10. I mean, you just couldn't make a movie like that. You couldn't show that stuff. It's another movie that depicted a moment in time 30 years before the moment in time. I mean, if you watch it now, he knew everything. And that's the thing about Steven. He knows everything. And he still knows everything. He was so young to be that wise and that brilliant. I learn from that dude constantly. I would do anything for him.

But separate all that out. He's just one of the best filmmakers who ever lived. And some of these other people, when they're uneven, they've made great films. But you look at the body of Steven's work, and it's not beyond compare, but it's almost beyond compare because of the catholicity of interests and genres, because of his ambition and grasp, and because of his ambition and grasp and because of his technical ability to execute by himself whatever he wants to execute. And all of that is on display in Sex, Lies, and Videotape. And he's studying these obsessions that are going to define him for the next long period of time right in the fucking film. And, um, you know, I, Sean, I can't imagine it wouldn't have been

in your top five had you realized he was born in the sixties. It just slipped my mind. Um, yeah, again, if you, I talked to Steven for the first time, actually last year, and we did a whole episode devoted to his body of work, which frankly, like could be a 30 episode podcast. As you said, like the scope and the taste and the fearlessness and the, the work, which frankly, like could be a 30 episode podcast. As you said, like the scope and the taste and the fearlessness and the, the variance, you know, the idea of him and you, you worked on him with two different kinds. I mean, think of the girlfriend experience and think of the oceans movie. Like, could there be two more different kinds of films? And he is as comfortable and skilled and interesting in all of those formats. He does TV. He's producing the Oscars. He's a giant. He is actually underappreciated in terms of what a creative

force he's been in the last 35 years. And this is the thing that basically puts him on the map. So it's a solid choice. It's a gold-plated choice. Good, man. This has been awesome to talk through. Brian, thank you so much for doing this. Thanks coming on when it when is billions coming back man what's the deal billions is coming back uh we're shooting but i can't talk about when it's coming back yet god classic tease all right dude well good luck can't wait to see the next season and uh give me a shout if you ever want to come back you're always welcome on the big man this has been awesome yeah invite invite me on uh invite me on anytime this is a i had the best time talking. I hope I didn't talk your ear off too much, but you're asking me to enthuse. It's like my favorite

thing to do. So thanks, Sean. I love it. Thanks, Brian. Thank you to Brian Koppelman and our producer Bobby Wagner. Coming up next week on The Big Picture, we draft once more. Chris Ryan rejoins Amanda and me to draft movies from what year, Amanda? 2016. Are you excited about that? I am. I have a lot of Chris Ryan stories about seeing movies with Chris in 2016, and they're very special.

So that'll be fun. 2016 is a very important year for me, Amanda and Chris, so it should be a fun episode. We'll see you then.