The Big Picture - Top Five Mark Wahlberg Movies: Say Hi to Your Mother for Us | The Big Picture

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Mark Wahlberg is one of the most unlikely movie stars of the century, mixing serious drama, comedy, action, and highbrow films across his long career. Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to talk about his peculiar acting style, what makes him such a persistent figure in Hollywood, and his best roles over the years (1:23). Then, Sean is joined by writer-director Kelly Reichardt to talk about her new film, 'First Cow,' one of the very best of 2020 so far (55:28). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan and Kelly Reichardt Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? This is Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Recently on the Winging It podcast, Vince Carter and Annie Finberg sat down with NBA All-Star Kyle Lowry and recording artist Rotimi. This week, 2017 first overall pick Markel Fultz joins the show to talk about living up to expectations and working his way back from injury in the NBA. Make sure to check out Winging It on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Bet she's tired from fucking my father. Do you have a job, Tom? I'm a firefighter. Oh, God bless you. A hero.

I'm not a hero. We'd all be here as if we quit using petroleum, though. Excuse me? You say you're Christians... You're throwing a lot of fucking money around. What is it you do for this guy? If you take away nothing else from my class, from this experience, let it be this.

If you're not a genius, don't bother. All right? The world needs plenty of electricians're not a genius, don't bother. All right? The world needs plenty of electricians, and a lot of them are happy. These movies we make, they can be better. They can help. They really can. I mean that. We can always do better.

I'm going to keep trying if you guys keep trying. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Mark Wahlberg? This episode may break the all-time record for big picture dissonance. Later in the show, I have an interview with Kelly Riker, the writer and director behind independent film classics like Old Joy, Meek's cutoff in the new film First Cow, which might be the best movie of 2020 so far. I hope you'll stick around for that.

But first, we're joined by the Frog Sheriff, Chris Ryan. I heard that Mark Wahlberg actually dropped out of First Cow. He was going to play the cow. Oh, wow. But you're already doing animal humor here on The Big Picture. Survivor 2 is, you know, calling. Chris, you're here because you're a fan of Mark Wahlberg's work. He's the star of a new movie that is hitting Netflix this Friday called Spencer Confidential.

I think it's his fifth film with Peter Berg, the actor turned director of such films as Lone Survivor and Deepwater Horizon. This is a very strange movie, but I think it's going to be a very watched movie because the coronavirus is scaring America into staying inside their house. And so I think that there's a potential for a lot of viewership of this movie. So we're talking about Mark Wahlberg, one of the most resilient and persistent movie stars, I guess, of the past 25 years.

So let's just start with who is Mark Wahlberg. How did this happen that Mark Wahlberg became one of the signature figures of movies in the 21st century? I would not say I'm a fan of Mark Wahlberg. As a, like, you know, I'm agnostic. As a citizen? Yeah, I would say that I am very interested in the way that he has conducted his career, which is kind of a weird throwback to a studio system style where he makes three to four

movies every 18 months somehow and just releases them at like a hugely prolific rate. And I'm fascinated by all the little pockets of his career that he has created where he repeats, you know, he goes back to these little micro genres that he and he works a lot of the same people over and over again. But the way he kind of has conducted his career to me is almost unique among Hollywood movie stars anymore. I mean, most of the time when people achieve a certain level of success, they just are like, see you in three years for my next blockbuster or award fodder. And he's just like, nope, I'm grinding out family movie, violent action film, and then every once in a while, raunchy comedy. And it's just like pretty, pretty like unique among all Hollywood stars. So I'm fascinated. What do you make of him, Amanda? I was fascinated when going back to remember how many great directors he's worked with and how many actually excellent movies he's been in. Chris was asking me how much rewatching I had to do for this podcast.

And the answer is a lot because I wouldn't say that Mark Wahlberg stays with me besides certain shots that will certainly be discussed on this podcast. But he, especially, I guess, in the first decade of this century, just goes on a tremendous run, you know, really from Boogie Nights On and works with it, does a lot of really great movies, and then kind of decides to just become, like, the Peter Berg comedy guy in the second decade of this century. And it's a really interesting shift. He just kind of decides, no, I'm going to do this now. And it's very fascinating to me. That can't really make sense of. I also, as Chris was talking about his efficiency, just pulled up his daily schedule. Do you guys remember the daily schedule? Oh, he wakes up at like four

o'clock in the morning. Yeah. He on his own instagram typical daily schedule 2 30 a.m wake up what 2 45 prayer time 3 15 a.m breakfast there's a lot of work work he's golfing from 7 30 to 8 which as the golf people and there's a cryo chamber recovery at 9 30 that takes more time than golf uh workout number two lunch is an hour so are meetings work calls also an hour and he goes to bed at 7 30 p.m. and which in Los Angeles for I'd say six at least six months of the year that is still broad daylight yeah yeah so it there is real efficiency baked into this he's clearly a very deliberate guy. He's making choices. And I think that pertains to his daily life and also his career.

There is clearly thought going into this. It's not a type of thought I can access. I still don't know why you would wake up at 2.30 and I don't know why you would do like five deep water horizons. You know, there's a rumor that he has a routine. I think he, I'm speculating here, but I think he's a member of Wilshire Country Club here in Los Angeles. Yeah, my husband told me this last night. And he likes to play alone and he likes to play fast. And that's why he's

playing so early in the morning. And he's trying to get in like a quick nine or a quick 18, I don't know, five days a week, which who among us wouldn't love to do that? If I could wake up before 5 a.m., I would do it. I'll tell you, I would not love to do that. And I'll tell you something else. I find golf to be social and I get crippled. Like when I play by myself, I'm like, oh, the neurosis is creeping in. Like, should I take another shot? Is it really playing golf if you're not playing with anyone? Can I just tell you, he's got three snacks on this schedule, including one that takes an hour and a half from 8 to 9.30 a.m. is snack after 7.30 to 8 a.m. is golf. That's probably a euphemism. Oh, okay. So you think his sessions are 90 minutes?

Is that what you're saying? Well, I just to jump off something Amanda said, you know who he reminds me of in a bizarre way? Cruise, where it's like that run where Cruise is like, I'll just work with Barry Levinson and Stanley Kubrick and Steven Spielberg and every great director. of in a bizarre way, Cruise. Where it's like that run where Cruise is like, I'll just work with Barry Levinson and Stanley Kubrick and Steven Spielberg and every great director and it seems like

I'm just the most important actor in the whole world. And then one day he wakes up and says, I'm going to make action movies for the rest of my life. It's very unlikely though. I mean,

his origins are very strange. He's obviously a member of this very well-known family. He's from Massachusetts. He starts out as a rap artist and ultimately becomes a Calvin Klein model. An MC.

An MC. Yes. Truly. Have you guys rewatched the Good Vibrations video recently? I did for this podcast. Did you do it for this podcast? I did not. Almost put that on here.

Didn't make my top five. Too busy watching Miles 22. Okay. What'd you make of Good Vibrations? And how did you feel about the Funky Bunch all these years later? It's just really bizarre that this was a thing that we lived through. Who was the Funky Bunch? I still don't know.

Who's in it? Were you in it, Chris? I thought it was the backup dancers. I mean, yes, that's who they were. But like, do you know anything about them and where they are now? I was pretty authentic back then. So I was already listening to deep, deep New York rap. I love talking about the early 90s with you. Can we talk about the Calvin Klein ads for a second? Certainly. Really important. Sure. Almost put these on my list. And it's in my honorable mentions. He wore boxer briefs, right?

Yeah. I was still a boxers guy back then, so it didn't really sway me. So that was the obstacle for you? Not interested in the product. Would you just tear the ads out of the magazine and crumple them up and throw them in the garbage? Yes. I think that those are the signature moment in his career. I think without the advertising campaign, he would not have become weirdly sub-Tom Cruise. But he soared to a level of fame on that ad campaign. They're also just extremely important 90s imagery. Obviously, Kate Moss is also in them.

And that's where the whole Kate Moss thing starts. Them hating each other. Great early celebrity feud. They're very important. That's all. And also, he looks great. I mean, his image was of basically like a tough guy with a bad attitude, whether that was true or not. He obviously got into some altercations and his personal history is pretty complicated. We're

not going to spend too much time talking about it on this show, but I think that he basically leveraged his complicated persona in the public into a movie career. And if you look at the first two movies that he makes, where he plays these kind of like weird, intimidating, undeveloped young men, you know, in the Basketball Diaries and in Ryan Rosillo's favorite movie, Fear. And even in Boogie Nights, there's something like violently adolescent about his persona, which is very different from the kind of actor and movie star that he is right now. So a lot of times I think that we could, you could write like a series of essays about how much actors of his generation have attempted to mimic the kind of like rough and tumble blue collar upbringing

that Wahlberg apparently had. But like how often like DiCaprio or Damon or these guys have tried to be like, no, I'm Jim Carroll. And he's just like, fuck Jim Carroll. Like, I'm the real thing. But it's weird. Like, even in his authenticity, if you want to call it that, he still kind of lacks like any kind of emotional intelligence or psychological depth to in portraying those things.

And you could write all these essays, but you could just watch The Departed because that's what this is about. Yes, exactly. Does that, but you could just watch The Departed because that's what this is about. Yes, exactly. Do you need that from an actor? Do you need to feel like this person is in control and has that depth that Chris is talking about? I think I do, ultimately. I think that there is a reason that I gravitate to Matt Damon instead of Wahlberg. And I think that not just because of The Departed and The Boston, though, we'll talk about that a lot as a comparison.

But I, like I said, I don't really remember a lot of Wahlberg performances, even though he's been given a lot of great ones. And I think that's because they have a, I don't want to say surface level. That's unfair. There are actually a lot of depths, but they aren't the emotional depths. And I think I just, I personally don't hang on to those. I think I'm always wondering how in command of the arc of his career he is, because you pointed out he makes, I mean, he's just been in a lot of great movies, a lot of movies that are going to stand the test of time. And it always seems like he's being cast the way that a lot of young actresses are

cast, as kind of the naif, you know, as the like, the naive and sort of innocent who gets corrupted when put into a system. And like, did someone in a room say that to him? Like, this is your lane man? Well, early on. You're a jerk diggler? Like, you think so?

Well, I just don't think that he, I think he's largely in charge of the movies that he makes now. Now, early on. You're a jerk diggler. Like, you think so? Well, I just don't think that he... I think he's largely in charge of the movies that he makes now. Now, for sure. So I think he's... Like, I think that the movies that we see are the movies that Mark Wahlberg once made, for the most part. And my suspicion is the reason he made that transition

that Amanda was referencing about just mostly doing action and comedy movies now is because those movies are more fun and easier to make for him. They're either, like, a physical challenge or they're, like, a nice day on the set. Whereas making Boogie Nights is... That's hard. Yeah, working with David Russell is hard. Whereas making Boogie Nights is, that's hard. I mean, that's a taxing shoot. Yeah, working with David Russell is hard.

Yeah. I think that he is both like thinking very strategically as the schedule would suggest, and also like not overthinking it. That's the vibe I get from him at the end of the day. He's going and like, it very much is what it is. He is a very surface level or just immediate actor. That's what you're getting. And so I think once he gets to produce the movies himself and make the decisions, he's just kind of like, yeah, I'll do action comedy.

And he's like, I don't want to make the Joker. Yeah, I don't really care. Before we get into our top fives, and I think we should figure out what we mean when we say top fives, if it's top five performances or his top five movies, because there's some complexity there. He's a very strange celebrity. The 9-11 thing is...

You're staring right at me. It's just hanging over my head as I think about him as a public person. So in 2012, Wahlberg was quoted in a magazine interview regarding what would have happened if he had flown aboard American Airlines Flight 11 on September 11th, 2001. He'd been booked on a flight on Flight 11, but his plans changed the day before the scheduled flight and he canceled his reservation. Wahlberg received public criticism for stating, quote, if I was on that plane with my kids, it wouldn't have went down like it did. And there would have been a lot of blood in that first class cabin. And then me saying, okay,

we're going to land somewhere safely. Don't worry. Wahlberg apologized for those statements, but they're actually the sort of thing that kind of inform his public persona. And when we watch him in an action movie, we think that he's the kind of guy who's like, I would have kicked some ass on 9-11, which I don't know if it like complicates the quality of the films that he makes, but I can't get stuff like that out of my head once I've read it or heard about it. And I feel like we've referred back to it even in a joking fashion over the years, right? Yeah, it is definitely one of the top three things that I think about when someone says Mark Wahlberg. His schedule. Yeah. 9-11. Yeah. And the last scene of Boogie Nights, which I know is, I understand it's a prosthetic, but like, you know, I'm a human being. It's vivid. It's the point of the movie. The whole movie is

leading to that. Yeah. So yeah, I agree. It's funny. He is both, I think, very funny as a comedic actor and like entirely humorless. And it's maybe that some things he's in on the joke on and some things he's just kind of being like, no, I would have saved, I would have stopped 9-11, which is just a ridiculous thing to say. And that's the joke of Andy Samberg's Say Hi to Your Mother for me. Yeah. You know, portrayal of him is this, it's like, he's kind of a total rube, but also not. There's something very elusive about whatever's going on with him. It's the entourage thing. It's like, do you watch Entourage because you think it's, it's like completely ridiculous? Or do you watch Entourage because you think it's like a sick, awesome representative drama?

And I dare to say that Mark Wahlberg is like, yep, that's how it went. Probably. I think you're right. It is based on his life. Entourage is like when Ari comes on and it's really like, whoa! But he's like, that's accurate. Vince is very

much living my experience. He's like, that's accurate. Vince is very much living my experience. He's like, we should make a show about it. I think that you guys are right. Do you think that this should be top five performances or top five movies? How did you choose? I don't know. I don't know where I landed.

I think I did. I tried to be interesting here, but I wouldn't say that any of these performances leap out at me except for my number one and number two as like excellent performances. They're just more like movies I really like. Has he ever given a truly great performance? Yes.

I think there's one and a half great performances on this list. Is it all in the same movie and it's just the half is the end of Boogie Nights? No, no, it's not. Well, that might be the case, but no, there's another movie. I still did performances, but I think they are a little bit also an award for the movie knowing how best to use him. Right. Okay. Well, then let's get into it. Let's go into our top five Mark Wahlberg performances slash movies. Number five. Amanda, why don't you start us off? This one goes out to Bill Simmons and apparently to Ryan Russillo, who I still have never met. But hello, Ryan.

I'm going with Fear. Oh, my God. Why not? Wow. Did you revisit Fear? Excuse me? Yes, I did. Okay.

Okay. Number one. What's your favorite scene? The credits. Yes. Great font. Great font. Great font. This is a really creepy, scary performance from him. I mean, obviously the rollercoaster scene is very important.

Also, this is important because of early Reese Witherspoon. Just all my interests. Also, we have to be ourselves. When I was rewatching, I was like, oh, this is Mark Wahlberg's talented Mr. Ripley. And I mean that in terms of the quality of careers also, even though I do think Mark Wahlberg has been in a lot of movies. But, you know, Damon's talented Mr. Ripley is like a really nuanced psychological drama directed by Anthony Minghella, like set in the Mediterranean, really beautiful. Mark Wahl Horse is just like,

I'm a really messed up kid who's killing people in a completely unsubtle movie, but I look really scary. But he is really scary and also really hot. You know, it sums up a lot of his choices going down the road. I feel it is also extremely memorable.

I imagine if we ever do the rewatchables fear, what's age the worst is going to be a long talking point. Everything? Depends on who's on the pod. How do you feel about fear? I don't think I've seen fear since 1996. I haven't seen fear since I was in high school or something or since I was right out of high school.

He is really menacing in it, in a not over the top way. And when I was rewatching like a lot of things, he gets to aggro. But also like you can see the effort on him really quickly. There are a lot of movies where it's like, oh, you're doing a character of yourself or you're just screaming. And there is something I don't want to say nuanced because this movie is a mess. But there is something like authentically creepy about him. And it kind of keeps in that tonal line. It's upsetting and also just a terrible movie, but important movie.

It's, I mean, it's not made by, it's made by a lot of very successful and talented people, you know, like James Foley, who made Glengarry Glen Ross and a bunch of other pretty solid films made it. It's like Carter Burwell did the score to this movie. But even at the time, I remember thinking like as a 14 year old, I was like, this seems kind of problematic.

Like that was well before we were saying that movies were problematic. Strong choice by you. You're really kicking us off in an aggressive fashion. We're doing a podcast about Mark Wahlberg. What else is he supposed to do? Chris, what about you? Number five. Contraband. Okay. This is a 2000. By the doing a podcast about Mark Wahlberg. What else was I supposed to do? Chris, what about you? Number five. Contraband.

Okay. This is a 2000. By the way, you chose to do this. I'm not going to spend too much time. You invited both of us on this podcast. You said we will do an entire podcast about Mark Wahlberg. I think I picked five very respectable normal movies that people like.

You guys picked Fear and Contraband. Contraband 2012 is my favorite one of all of the Mark Wahlberg sincere B movies. He's been making these since 2007 starting with Shooter. Among other titles,

they include Two Guns, Broken City, Contraband, the aforementioned. Spencer, I guess I would put in this category.

What else? Mile 22, which is quite an amazing film. Absolutely terrible movie. It's like, it is one of the true, like, how did this get made? Like, absolute lunacy. Contraband features all of my favorite actors. Let's go through them really quickly.

Mark Wahlberg. Kate Beckinsale. Yeah. Love her. I do too. I also really recommend Kate Beckinsale's Instagram. Keep going. Ben Foster.

Giovanni Ribisi, Lucas Haas, J.K. Simmons, and Diego Luna. There's all like nervy, weird guys who yell a lot. It's about shipping. It's a film. Shane Carruth wanted to make a movie about shipping. It's too bad because they already made Contraband. No, it's about a guy who thinks he's out

and they pull him back in because his brother gets caught up in some smuggling shit. And he has to rescue Caleb Landry Jones, who is Kate Beckinsale's brother, I think. Sure. And Ribisi is the heavy. And it's great. It's just a great... He plays Chris Faraday, set in New Orleans.

I would not call it an authentic New Orleans experience, but watch Treme if you want to. Contraband. Can't say you really made a strong case for this movie at all. I have no idea why you chose this. I like the fact that he is like a weird like latter day like exploitation actor where he's just like

I just still grind out like three pretty decent thrillers a year. Can I also just remind you we picked performances and not movies. Yeah, I'm not like you want me to say Huckabee

six times? Like let's get interesting. What's your fifth one? Well, let me just say that the thing about Spencer that is in keeping with what you're describing is it is basically him being like, I'm Charles Bronson or I'm Burt Reynolds, or there's a certain kind of 70s tough guy movie, Joe Don Baker, you know, all of those guys. And I think Mark Wahlberg is like, this kind of movie still makes sense and I will continue

to make it. And I guess in some cases they've been very successful in some cases, not mile 22 famously, like a huge bomb. I wonder if Mark Wahlberg transitioning to Netflix also says something about the direction of his career, not necessarily negative, but just I'd rather not have to deal with the vagaries of the box office. My number five is the yards, which I think is a good performance in a great movie. This is a James Gray movie from the late 90s. It's probably best known

for really strong performances by Joaquin Phoenix and Charlize Theron in the early stages of their career as serious actors. But I think it kind of sums up what Wahlberg is best at, which is kind of playing the rube,

playing like the soft-headed lead character who gets pivoted around by all the characters in the frame. So James Caan's in the movie, Faye Dunaway's in the movie, all these amazing powerhouse, scenery-chewing actors. And he is our avatar who's like kind of surprised

every time something bad happens to him. Dirk Diggler is very much the same way, and we'll definitely talk about Dirk Diggler. But that to me is like the best version of him. It's not the comedy actor. It's not the comedy actor. It's not the action movie star. It's the guy who we're just sort of along for the ride with. You know, The Yards is a fairly like standard upscale psychological crime movie. It's the Tony version of

Contraband. Yeah, it's the same way with We Own the Night a couple years later, which is Joaquin Phoenix and Mark Wahlberg and Robert Duvall and even Mendez in a James Gray movie. And I actually love that movie. And it's one of those movies that it's kind of hard to figure out like why he wanted to work with James Gray. Or did James Gray seek him out because he thought he could open his movie overseas with Mark Wahlberg? How much money

would you pay to like just be in a room with Mark Wahlberg and James Gray for an hour? I can't even imagine what that's like. They made two movies together. I know. I know. What the fuck do Mark Wahlberg and James Gray for an hour. I can't even imagine what that's like. They made two movies together. I know, I know. What the fuck do Mark Wahlberg and David O. Russell talk about? I don't know,

but it's an interesting thing where both of those filmmakers who we know to be incredibly intellectual and stimulating conversationalists, perhaps in an aggressive fashion on David O. Russell's count, they both like him

and they both return to working with him over and over again. They worked with him multiple times. It's a great question. We'll never know the answer. Let's go to number four. Chris, why don't you start us off? Oh, okay. My number four movie is The Other Guys.

Okay. Nobody else has The Other Guys? It was honorable mention. Okay. It's honorable mention for me too. That's my favorite Mark Wahlberg comedy. I think it's really funny with Will Ferrell. This is one of those movies that has gotten funnier over the years because i've watched stepbrothers too many times so i i can't keep watching the same five

comedies so i need like one more and other guys is the is the the one and it's like kind of becoming the lost mckay gem you know also that's the movie that really officially kicks off adam and k has some big ideas about the economy oh yeah you know like that's the movie that really officially kicks off. Adam McKay has some big ideas about the economy. Oh, yeah. You know, like that's the whole subtext of Steve Coogan character, who I think is a evil billionaire that presages Mike Bloomberg and where our political conversation is going right now. I like it.

I haven't seen it in a while. It's really funny to watch Wahlberg try to go like line for line with Will Ferrell and improv with those guys. Well, so that was the thing. I rewatched it thinking that it would be in my top five. And then he, number one, I forgot how many hilarious people are in that movie. And he kind of gets blown off the screen by, I mean, certainly by Will Ferrell, which everyone gets blown off the screen by Will Ferrell. But ultimately I was like, oh, you can't quite hang with the big boys. Yeah. I think that's probably what was holding.

The bloopers for this movie are really funny because there's lots of times where everyone else is cracking up and Wahlberg's just kind of like, I have a schedule to keep. I need to get to the Wilshire Country Club in an hour. I think also the very best bit in the movie happens 20 minutes in when Sam Jackson and The Rock jump off the building and die. And I really, I kind of just wanted the Sam Jackson and The Rock movie.

The best bit of the movie is Will Ferrell and Eva Mendes being married. Yes, long history. That is funny when Wahlberg is just like, bye Sheila, bye Sheila, like a million times. And Will Ferrell's like, I don't think he can hear me. Eva Mendes is very good in that scene. Amanda, what about you?

Number four. My number four is The Fighter. Okay, speaking of David O. Russell. Yes, speaking of David O. Russell and speaking of Mark Wahlberg kind of being the center where all the interesting people go nuts around him, which is certainly the case in this movie. I had forgotten about the sisters. Remember the sisters in The Fighter?

Yes. Tremendous stuff. Did you know that one of them is Conan O'Brien's brother? Yes, I did. I do remember that. That was really good early film blog fodder back in 2010. We were so innocent then. We were. But what I like about this is that, you know, as I said, I don't really find that Wahlberg is always a hugely emotional person, actor. And I think often when he tries to do emotional stuff, it doesn't go super well. You don't really buy it. And this actually is like a

quiet, emotional performance from him. He definitely has chemistry with Amy Adams, who is tremendous in this movie, and affection for Christian Bale and the sisters. And you actually do feel him relating to all the other people in the movie while also giving like a very physical performance, which is another hallmark of his. I think it's the best version of a lot of those things also just I like this movie I agree I think he's at his best when he's doing exactly what you're saying which is like using his brute force as part of the storytelling in the movie and that's part of why my number four is Three Kings also a David O. Russell movie also a movie where he has to run around a lot and seem panicked and carry a gun and in a lot of ways he shows us a little bit of the sensitivity. Like my favorite scene is when he calls his wife on the phone with the burner when he goes inside the tunnel. And, you know, it seems like it's going to be a very sweet conversation and you realize that he's about to be very panicked. But he has to do a lot of anguish stuff. And he really is the king, I think think that we spend the most time with even though it's

quote-unquote a George Clooney movie and Ice Cube is in the movie and there's an all-time Spike Jonze performance in the movie Mark Wahlberg is like the empathy center of the story and Russell like returns to him for that role over and over again and that's just a really great movie I think we talked about it last year during one of the 99 pods. And I would encourage people to check it out. Number three. Chris. The Perfect Storm. So I think probably the most rewatchable Mark Wahlberg movie.

If I had to go out on a limb. Up there with The Departed. The most rewatchable? Yeah. Are you on drugs? Are you guys on like Perfect Storm? I have not rewatched it so could you please do

Diane Lane in the Perfect Storm for us now? This is the note that Diane Lane leaves for Mark Wahlberg when he goes out to sea. Hi Bobby.

You're somewhere out there on the deep blue goddamn sea and I'm writing this on a box two semi-down pillows that I secretly bought for us at Penny's and I'm smiling at on a box two semi-down pillows that I secretly bought for us at Penny's

and I'm smiling at myself because I got a surprise for you I'm talking removal from our dungeons in the crow's nest to our own place it's no great shakes but you gotta begin with the baby shake right forever love Bobby

I'm in this for the long run why is it totally as Ted Kennedy you made her sound is she like reading Diane Lane in Perfect Storm top 5 all time it's amazing that you just

did that entire reading as Ted Kennedy and then are like top 5 all time I just want you to know that about yourself. Top five performances by an actor on screen. No, I love Perfect Storm. It's a Wolfgang Peterson movie from 2000 and it's like when they say

they don't make them like they used to, they're usually referring to classic Hollywood movies, but I kind of am referring to these really, really well made, somewhat action-y, but somewhat heartfelt, kind of like, you know, spectacle, Hollywood spectacles. And this is Clooney, Wahlberg. Wahlberg is like the authentically Boston guy on a boat full of people doing terrible Massachusetts accents

like John C. Reilly and John Hawks and Clooney and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Michael Ironside. But it's just like a really amazing Apollo 13, but with a sad ending type movie. I love you, literally, but this is weird. You think this is weird? Also, knowing what else is going to be on your list, you're just really going for it right now.

This is the most rewatchable Mark Wahlberg movie? As opposed to, I guess you're going to say Boogie Nights, right? I mean, we don't even have to... Like, you've already named a movie that's more rewatchable than thisights, right? I mean, we don't even have to, like, you've already named a movie that's more rewatchable than this movie. Okay. I mean, you guys are getting

really pedantic here. God damn it, Chris! Sometimes in podcasts, you just say something. You didn't know I was going to be part of, like, you read it back to me like a stenographer.

Yeah, I like The Perfect Storm. And I don't care who knows it. Okay, does he die at the end of this? Yeah, everybody dies. They all die? Yeah. Does Diane Lane die? No, she's fucking sitting in her apartment.

She's like, I put up some curtains, Bobby. You and me. Fava. The accent is all over the place. What are you doing? This is good stuff. Amanda, I pray to God your number three is not the perfect storm. What are you doing? This is good stuff. Amanda, I pray to God your number three is not the perfect storm. It's not the perfect storm, which Chris just spoiled for me 20 years later.

It's I Heart Huckabees. This is my number two. Yeah. This is tremendous. Maybe it should be higher if I had the courage of my convictions, it would be higher. Come on over. I find him to be

hilarious in this movie, and it is also him being in on the joke and actually being able to use the comedy and the ridiculousness, and it makes the entire movie work. By the way, this movie is so weird. When I rewatched it, I hadn't seen it in a few years.

It's so strange. I think it's a few years. It's so strange. I think it's a total miracle. It's so strange. The dinner scene with Schwartzman and Wahlberg and Richard Jenkins and Gene Smart. And just like talking about socialism. It's the best scene in the movie. And I think you could make the case

that even though I put it at number two and you put it at number three, it might be the pinnacle of Mark Wahlberg's acting career. You guys are making me feel bad, but okay. Because I feel like I didn't take this... I mean, I'm doing a lot of undiscovered... No, it's important to talk about contraband, you know? We just got to get the word out about contraband

here on the pod. I agree. It feels like maybe the only time in his career that he's in on the joke. And, you know, it's like he's funny in Ted and he's funny in the other guys. But this is weirdly a comedy that is about the most,

the deepest psychological problems that we all deal with. And it's also about 9-11. And it's also about identity, family, like all of these big, big ideas. The script is incredible in this movie. It's so strange, you're right. But I really think it's like a massive achievement. My relationship to David O. Russell kind of ends with this movie.

I think that Mark Wahlberg is great in The Fighter, but The Fighter and Silver Linings and American Hustle and Joy, I feel like David O. Russell lost something. I feel like in some ways this movie might have broken him and his fearlessness that you saw in Spanking the Monkey and Three Kings and this wild approach to moviemaking ends. And I almost don't know what to say about the movie. I love that movie very much. And I feel like it doesn't work without Mark Wahlberg. Absolutely not. The line reading, the timing is not something that I knew he had and that is not something that he has really shown since.

Do you think he likes to be challenged like an athlete? Because we know David O. Russell can be a very challenging director. I bet he digs it. Yeah. I mean, he's worked with him three times. And even I feel like a lot of the Peter Berg stuff is around like Lone Survivor. I don't think it's going to be on any of it's on your list, Chris. No, I have a lot of admiration for Lone Survivor.

I thought it was really effective movie, but I could see Mark Wahlberg being like, I can bite into this, and I can spend six months of my life challenging myself to excel in this movie. And this is the slightly more emotional version of that, where he has to think a little bit harder and focus a little bit more and use his funny brain and use his serious brain.

And I don't know. We should just play that clip of the dinner sequence in full because it's just really wonderful. I do also like that his first scene when I guess it's when his wife and child are leaving and then he's just yelling about petroleum and like throwing shit around. And he still does get to be really physical. Like David O. Russell clearly understands something on him. David O. Russell understands angry men and is, I mean, I don't, I've never met David O. Russell, but men and is, I mean, I've never met David O. Russell, but I think maybe it takes one to know one from what I've read, and really likes putting them in his movies. See also Bradley Cooper, but he really lets all of the facets

of Mark Wahlberg shine. You're not really leaning into angry Mark. No, I'm not. So I Heard Huckabees is my number two. What's your number two? Departed. He's angry in this movie. This is my number three. That's my number one. Okay. So, let's have our Departed conversation. I mean, basically, he's a force of nature in this movie. And these two guys who are pretending to be, essentially, each other in various points

and are sort of representing two sides of a psyche. He's the one who's just like, you're both full of shit, you know, and is the destroyer of worlds and is the truth teller and is, he's playing such an amazing role in this movie. And I almost feel like it radiates off of him how pissed off he is that he is third build.

Yes. And how ridiculous he thinks these two guys are. Yes. And I think that makes this movie fucking electrifying. Yeah. It's Wahlberg, like, boiled down to an essential element or whatever. Like, if you were, you know, finding a naturally occurring Wahlberg, it's this.

It's, like, him screaming about the mushrooms and the feds and whatever. Yeah. And it is also such a summary of his career. I mean, he is always, I mean, he's angry Boston guy. Like that is, that's what he does. It's kind of the first time you really did that though, right? Yeah. But like a lot of people are trying to do versions of that working class, tough Boston guy. And a lot of people are trying to do versions of that working class, tough Boston guy. And a lot of people have built very successful careers on them. Many of those people are also in this movie with him. But he is doing the pure version of it. And he seems, for lack of a better word, just slightly more authentic.

He plays a lot of soldiers and cops and firemen. He's a very blue collarcollar avatar at the movies, which is one of the reasons why I think he's so successful. The difference here is that this is a slightly, this is certainly a more elevated movie. And he gets all the best lines, you know?

Like, he really gets to, he steals the movie in the classical sense. And it's also a role that we don't usually see him in. He never plays the villain. And he never, almost never plays a supporting part in movies anymore. He's always the lead. And I believe he was nominated for an Oscar for this.

Yes. Probably should have won. He totally walks away with the movie whenever he's in the sequence, even if he's just naturally occurring, as you said. I wouldn't go so far as to say the movie doesn't work without him. But if you don't have this major irritant through the first two thirds of the movie, it doesn't have the same energy. And it's also really funny. It's that similar case of like,

I think he knows in this case that he's being funny. He knows that he's got the best lines. He knows that he's chewing on, like him and Baldwin together going back and forth. You know, I was busy with, you know, my father's

fucking my mother. You think he could was busy with, you know, my father's fucking my mother. You think he could have played the Damon or Leo role and the movie would have not suffered? I mean, I don't want to have a whole other conversation about how Leo shouldn't be in this movie,

which I know is like heretical to say. And I know Sean just had his thing. But it is very funny when you talk about The Departed, you talk about everybody but Leo. That's all. Oh, I don't. Okay, well, that's you guys.

You think like Damon and Wahlberg and Martin Sheen and yes I mean I don't think that I don't think that Wahlberg can play the Leo role because I don't think he has enough you know emotional he's not really operating on like any of the levels that you need to to play that. He is better when he just gets to say all the funny lines. But I think he could have played like every other supporting part

in this movie. You know, it would be funny to see like that that scene of Baldwin and Damon and Wahlberg in the

like the conference room but Wahlberg just doing all of them. Like you can imagine it. How about this? Wahlberg in the Vera Farmiga part. That's right. Who Farmiga part that's right

who says no that's right that would be pretty good The Departed is a great movie it's it's weird because I think it really reminds me of the fact that

no matter what happens he still is B-team to Damon and Leo though it's almost like an evocation of what Chris was saying where he's like acting

in a way that shows that he's like if only I could get to a place where he's like acting in a way that shows that he's like if only I could get to a place where I could be a part of a movie like this at the top of the poster and

even though he's made a lot of respectable movies The Departed is I mean I don't know is it the biggest movie that he's been a part of just not just

from the box office perspective or the critical perspective but kind of taken all into account I bet this this and probably the other movie that you guys are going to talk about would be the consensus yeah you know the consensus one it's the peak for us because we're looking for like a complicated

layered performance right i think there are a lot of people who just want who want uncomplicated they want mile 22 or whatever i mean i guess they didn't want mile 22 because no one saw it, but they just want someone who is sincere and, you know, yelling when you need to yell and saving people when you need to be saved. And I don't have to worry too much about it. And I think we consider Damon and Leo to be much greater actors. Do you think like if you just did a popularity contest? Would Wahlberg win? Damon versus Wahlberg? Like just a straw poll of like. Yeah. You want to see a Damon movie? You want to see a Wahlberg movie? Like I don't I don't know. And a good question. And I know where we three stand and probably most of the people listening to this. But I think that Wahlberg is

just like the uncomplicated movie star for the last 20 years. I think Damon's... Even though he's quite complicated, but in his performances and in the type of movies that he's making. I think Damon has made more massive hits, but also taken more odd chances. And Wahlberg has been almost like metronomic in his career. He's always in mainstream movies.

You know, even in I Heart Huckabees, that's still like a, that was released by a studio. Which is bizarre. You know, like Damon was in Jerry. Yeah.

Damon's done some odd stuff. He like co-wrote Promised Land. Sure. So, I don't know. It's a, it's a,

it's a good question that we'll never know the answer to unless we ask people on Twitter. So Departed was your number one? Yeah. And Departed was your number two? The Departed was my number three.

I Heart All Companies was my number two. Amanda has to tell us her number two right now. My number two is Boogie Nights. This is my number one. Boogie Nights didn't make my list. That's why you're here. Well, I just still find him one of the least interesting parts of Boogie Nights. Is that not the point?

I'm sure it is. I'm not going to put it in my top five Mark Wahlberg because of that. What turned you off? Was it the scene where he was asked to furiously masturbate in a truck? Did that turn you off? I wish we were on camera now. There's nothing about Boogie Nights that makes me uncomfortable. Okay.

Oh, that's like your comfort zone. Great. Good job. Why Boogie Nights? It's obviously so essential to the myth of Mark Wahlberg and is obviously a great movie. And we don't really have to talk about their prosthetic. But I do think in rewatching it, he is really natural, even in the scenes where he's supposed to be performing and being unnatural or inauthentic. He never looks like he's trying. And I watched a lot of Mark Wahlberg movies where it looks like he's trying.

And you can tell, and it's always a little uncomfortable. So there is just something very impressive about what PTA was able to get out of him in this performance. It definitely feels like a choice that Paul Thomas Anderson made to almost underline some of the things

that we think about Mark Wahlberg. We think he's like a handsome, undeveloped physical specimen. We think that he might be a little bit dim and also he's a little self-conscious about being dim. You know, I think some of his best stuff in the movie is like him flipping out at his mom and I'm not stupid or him flipping out on Jack and getting into a fight with him outside the pool. Like, let's go, Jack. You know, I'm ready to fuck like flipping out on Jack and getting into a fight with him outside the pool. Like, let's go, Jack. You know, I'm ready to fuck. Like that whole sequence.

The really like emotional and difficult stuff that he does in the movie, I think is some of the best stuff he's ever done and asks a lot of him in the same way that the David O. Russell movies

ask a lot of him. But also, through a lot of the movie, he is doing that similar kind of coasting along as he does in the yards as this you know naive doe walking through the forest of iniquity you know like that's really what boogie nights is like what happens when an innocent is shepherded into like the most

sinful experience you could possibly have this is to me the dramatic version of the other guys that you were talking about where it's just like I just watched this movie and I'm like you're getting absolutely crop dusted by Hoffman, Moore, Cheadle like everybody like it's one of the great casts

ever assembled so I just never ever really think about his performance in it what about when he sings The Heat that's cool one thing I do like about it though is that it is a movie

in a way it's about Mark thing i do like about it though is that it is a movie in a way it's about mark walberg being a star and it both is examining everything that came before it with the marky mark and the calvin klein of it all but we've spent a lot of this podcast trying to be like why is mark walberg a famous movie star and how does this happen and and what forces need to conspire and this is a very dark version of that but it is definitely in exploring the different parts of his personality whether it is that kind of lunkhead charm or the anger and it also understands how unlikely it is yeah so i do find that interesting so you don't find this movie that rewatchable? No, I just said that he, if we're doing

great Paul Thomas Anderson movies or great movies from like a certain obviously Boogie Nights is going to be on there. It's just specifically for him. He is not this is not in my top five. So most rewatchable Mark Wahlberg movies according to Chris Ryan. Mile 22 Contraband

The Perfect Storm. Mile 22 didn't make my list. Ted 2, The Other Guys maybe running 18th or 19th as Boogie Nights well no we still have to do your number one yes we do is it The Happening?

no M. Night Shyamalan's Masterpiece if you're not gonna say what I think you're gonna say then you're a coward no you know what I'm gonna say the number one Mark Wahlberg movie

is The Gambler yes time to go Chris do your thing I'm not this is not a bit you need to explain to people is The Gambler. Yes. Time to go, Chris. Do your thing. I'm not, this is not a bit. You need to explain to people what The Gambler is. In 2014, a film was released called The Gambler.

And it is a remake of a 70s James Caan movie. It is directed, this new version was directed by Rupert Wyatt. I think he did a Planet of the Apes movie. Doesn't matter. Mark Wahlberg is in it. Mark Wahlberg plays an English professor at a school who is the scion of a very moneyed LA family who is in crippling debt

to multiple gangsters across Los Angeles. And this film involves him giving very long monologues about the authenticity of Shakespeare's authorship of his plays, talking about the nature of tennis with Emery Cohen, engaging in a long romance with Brie Larson, who is his student, and then ultimately some very illogical blackjack games. It is one of the most bizarre, literary, philosophical, and self-immolating movies I've ever seen Hollywood manage to produce in this century. And we talk about like, oh, Mark Wahlberg, he had it. He was really interested in making good movies. I think he thinks this was going to be the move. He was like, this is my

Oscar movie. He made this movie with William Monaghan, who wrote The Departed, and Wahlberg would later appear in Mojave, which is a just doomed William Monaghan movie wrote The Departed and Wahlberg would later appear in Mojave, which is a just doomed William Monaghan movie that came out a couple of years later. And I think it's kind of unique and it's just got is a movie with such a dark, rotten soul. I at times think that Mark Wahlberg is doing his lines phonetically. Like, I don't think he understands the words he is saying. It's almost like when you watch The Happening and he's like, the wind! It might be in the trees!

And you're just like, is somebody, is like a person from like the North Pole wiring in the lines into an earpiece while he says these lines. But he and the gambler,

he's talking about like Sartre and he's talking about like existentialism and he's just like, talking about like Sartre and he's talking about like existentialism and he's just like talking about like this character's like how he thought of something about Sartre and that's why he's teaching. And it's just like, you have to see this movie to believe it. The blackjack scenes are fucking incredible because mathematically, even they don't track, like even in just like, how did this happen with you? You had 16 and you hit, you know?

But it's easily my favorite Mark Wahlberg movie and one of my favorite movies of the last, like, 10 years. Can I ask you something? Where do you think that Mark Wahlberg stands on the Shakespeare authorship theory? Not the character Mark Wahlberg. He says in this movie.

I said not the character. I said Mark Wahlberg. Mark Wahlberg. I mean, I think he wonders about Marlo just like all of us, you know? It's something that keeps him up at night if he ever went to sleep at night. So it keeps him up during the day.

Okay. I wouldn't normally do this, but I actually would just provide you an additional 90 to 180 seconds to keep talking about The Gambler if you want to. There's a scene in this movie where John Goodman, who is cleanly shaven, very bald, and is in a steam bath, but Mark Wahlberg's in the steam bath with him wearing a full suit. And John Goodman literally explains all you need to know about how to get over in America,

where it's just like you got to own your house and get a good roof with a 20 year mortgage. You buy yourself an economical car and that's fuck you. I believe he describes it as a Japanese indestructible shit box. That's the kind of car he suggests you buy. Michael K. Williams is in this movie.

He's pretty good. You're really grasping for straws now. No, I can't. It's just like it is a weird miracle of a movie. It is a weird miracle of a movie. Jessica Lange plays his mother. The opening 45 minutes to an hour are magical. I think that the end of it kind of falls apart a little bit.

Can we talk about his haircut? Is it a haircut? Is it a wig? I don't know. I mean, he's doing like the literary, like liberal arts college floppy hair. Is your fantasy just like, let it go? No, I don't think Sean's hair would do that because your hair is a bit coarser somehow. It wouldn't flop in the same way. That's a good thing.

I grew up with like a lot of like hair floppy boys in Atlanta, Georgia. It's not something that you want to be a part of. Can't relate. Yeah. I think the back half of my life will be about pursuing that hair and questions of Shakespeare's authorship. I think I got to get to the bottom of that. This movie does have one of the all-time great taglines,

which is the only way out is all in. Okay. That's how you got to live your life. Yeah. That's how we pod. Your list is insane. I know that you're doing this in a slightly performative fashion

I think that these are more fun when we have some like just a little bit of like Dave Chang salt on it a little tingly salt but I tried to bring up Rango on a podcast and you guys were like eat shit you fucking corn dog

yes and then you were like it's the gambler and the perfect story if the gambler if somebody drew the gambler, I wouldn't be into it. If the gambler was a frog and he's like,

I like blackjack, hit me. Or like, how would he get his, you know, like that? I'm doing a frog leg. Okay.

Yeah. How do you make frogs work? This is a podcast. They're like, okay. There's no cameras on you. Sure. I guess I'm kind of doing a T-Rex. No one can understand what you're doing.

Yeah, you're doing a T-Rex. Like a raptor playing cards. And you think that that's how the frog's leg works. If I was drawing the frog, I think, yeah. Oh, all right. If there are any industrious listeners of this show who have made it this far into this hellscape of a podcast

and you could recreate the dogs playing poker painting with five rangos playing poker, please send it to me. I'll pay you for it. You guys want to talk about runners-up? Chris, maybe you shouldn't talk anymore, Chris. Amanda, do you have any runners-up? Well, I already mentioned the

Calvin Klein ads and we talked about the other guys. What's your favorite Pete Berg, Mark Wahlberg movie? Do you have one? Patriot's Day? It's not Patriot's Day. I'm not sure. That's not a bad movie. No, I know.

I have to be honest. I can't really tell them apart in my head at this point. Patriot's Day is about the Boston Marathon bombing. Oh, God, I forgot about that. Deepwater Horizon is about the Deepwater Horizon tragedy. Yeah, no, I remember. Kind of right there in the title. And Lone Survivor, he's in Afghanistan.

Okay. And it doesn't go well. No. Do any of them go well? No. Yeah, I have seen those movies and I couldn't tell you. I think they all exist to me and kind of like Mark Wahlberg is doing Mark Wahlberg things.

And good luck to him. Yeah, I like Pain and Gain. I feel like that's also a time when somebody was like, I need to get a pump in. That's the real Mark Wahlberg, you know, where he really is just like kind of a muscle,

lunkhead charm, I think Amanda said. I think that's exploiting that. I wanted to walk out of Pain and gain, and I wasn't allowed to. What about The Italian Job? It's good. I like The Italian Job, but I don't know if he is the shining star of The Italian Job. Sure. Should we talk about Ted?

I've never seen it. That's interesting. Wow. You really, really don't like animals that talk. It's probably the single biggest hit that he's made. It's really on his shoulders and I guess Seth MacFarlane's shoulders. And people love this movie. We get asked to do this movie on the rewatchables frequently.

I wouldn't say that I love it. I don't hate it. I just, I thought it was pretty funny the first time I saw it. I said to you guys, I guess last week week that I remembered thinking Ted was very funny. And then I went back to watch clips ready to put it on my list and be provocative or whatever. And I didn't find it as funny the second time around. And I don't know whether I'm going to be very honest. I tried.

What changed? Well, you can't really reheat comedy, you know. So some of it was just kind of like okay i guess i've seen this the bear he's talking he's very foul um i actually do find the bear funnier than mark walberg in this i don't really know what to say about that makes sense and so that was another reason to not put it on this list um you know if we did a rewatchables the what hasn't aged the best would be the comedies are always longer and what hasn't aged the best. But this one is, I don't know.

Is there a number one thing that hasn't aged the best in Ted? All of all of the jokes are just kind of like gross, predatory sex stuff for like jizz everywhere. You know, that's pretty much it. Between this and Dirk, this has been a very jizz-centric podcast. I thought that, honestly, we were very respectful, all things considered. For sure. Can I just cite a couple of things in the Mark Wahlberg what the fuck zone before we wrap this up? Am I allowed to keep talking?

I would love for you to keep talking. Okay. I just needed you to chill for a minute. In 2015, Wahlberg recruited Sean Combs and billionaire Ronald Burkle to join him in investing in Aquahydrate, a bottled water brand that Wahlberg discovered. Yes, that was a great phrase on the Wikipedia page. Discovered. No, I don't think he like tapped a source.

No, I don't think that. I think he was just kind of like, I like this. Okay. And then, you know, everybody wants to make money off water. Aquahydrate, kind of a redundant title. Water, I think. Have you guys seen Aquahydrate, kind of a redundant title. Water, I think. Have you guys seen Aquahydrate out there in the stores? No.

Never seen it in my life. That's one of those things that like then gets sold to like Coca-Cola for like $80 million though, right? Perhaps. One year later, Wahlberg, together with former GNC executive Tom Dowd, co-founded Performance Inspired, a sports nutrition company. I've seen some of those YouTube videos. You really love those YouTube videos. Tom Dowd co-founded Performance Inspired, a sports nutrition company. I've seen some of those YouTube videos. You really love those YouTube videos.

Do you consume protein powder? No. It doesn't look like I consume protein powder. I don't know what could be happening with you at home. Oh, no. Okay. Got more for you. In February 2017, Wahlberg was one of the investors who took part in a $6 million funding round for StockX,

a sneaker resale marketplace that is pretty meaningful to some of the people that work here at The Ringer. Is that one of the good sneaker resales? Yeah, it's like that. It is. One of the signatures. Okay. On July 20th, 2018, Wahlberg and his business partner Jay Feldman announced the purchase of Bobby Lehman Chevrolet in Columbus, Ohio. The dealership was renamed Mark Wahlberg Chevrolet. In March 2019, Wahlberg bought a stake in the F45 fitness franchise. He's just sprinkling his cash around. Yeah. He's diversifying in a fascinating way. And then, of course, the Wahlbergers franchise, which is, I guess, owned by multiple members of his family? According to the Wahlburgers Wikipedia page,

it is owned by chef Paul Wahlberg and his brothers, actors Donnie Wahlberg and Mark Wahlberg. Are those guys all getting along these days? I haven't seen that show. I haven't really caught up. I bet. Maybe we'll do a sequel to this pod, the top five Wahlburgers episodes.

Top five Wahlburgers menu items. Have you ever eaten at a Wahlburgers? No. No. What do they serve there? Okay. All right. Has this been a useful exercise, guys?

Have we learned anything about Mark Wahlberg? What a strange career. What a strange presence in Hollywood. Yeah. I would say that at the end of this, I know what I like about Mark Wahlberg. And I also, there is something unreachable about him

to me personally. And that might be the appeal. That honestly might be why Mark Wahlberg has made like billions of dollars off of movies and weird fitness investments. And aqua hydrate. Yeah. Well, I'm going to go look for some aqua hydrate now. Chris Ryan, Amanda Dobbins, thank you guys for doing this. Please stick around.

Here's my conversation with the filmmaker Kelly Reichert. I'm honored to be joined by one of the best living filmmakers in the world. Kelly Reichert, how are you? I'm well, thank you. Too much? Too strong? That was a lot of introduction. One of my favorites, at least. I'm glad you're here.

Thanks for having me. I was really happy to see that you and John Raymond were getting back together on a project. Obviously, you guys are longtime friends and you've co-written films together. It's interesting that First Cow is essentially an adaptation of his first novel. It is. Why did this movie come about after, I mean, the book was published a long time ago and you've done other work since then. Well, the Half-Life, the novel spans four decades and there's a, they get on a ship and they go to China and somehow for my then $30,000 budgets, I just couldn't pull it off. So we did Old Joy instead. Um, yeah, we just, we've been thinking about it forever, but just not really seeing the way into doing it.

And, you know, because I really like getting into a short story or novella or something like that where you can expand and extend and there's room to create new stuff. And this just seemed like it would just be extracting and extracting. But somehow we broke the code. The novel swings back and forth between 1980 and the 1800s. And we settled on, like, we created a sort of prologue and then settled into the 1800s part of the story. And John fused two characters together to make King Lou. And then somehow we came up with the vehicle of the cow, which doesn't exist in the novel. And then that sort of led us, once we had our sort of heist that happens,

we could just, then I i could just we could work off that and get in there and there was room to sort of expand and add and those sorts of things and still have the themes of the novel uh through the b the um could come in using the beaver trade the fur trade as a as a means to get to the same things John's talking about in the novel. You predicted my next question, which is how did you figure out how to completely redefine the book? I mean, it's very different from the book in a lot of ways. It's kind of like I'm on John Raymond's book tour right now while he is, what, in New York seeing art, flying home, be with his kids.

Well, it's good. Yeah. No, it's how it should be. It's a work, obviously, too. Yeah. How do you guys collaborate? I mean, I'm always interested when people co-write a movie together what that actually means. Yeah, what does it mean?

I always ask if people are back-to-back in a room, you know, banging away at a laptop together. No. Well, you know, actually uh it's different for every film i will say that i am not i don't deal with the blank page uh you know uh even when i worked when i worked with miley malloy she just sort of gave me let me have my way with her work and she was she didn't want to be involved. Um, but John and I, you know, we're, we talk on the phone all day, like we're deep in each other's lives. So, um, it's an ongoing conversation and sometimes it starts with, uh, something it has. Some of them

have started with things he had already written. Some of them started from ideas we had and we went and looked at a location and wrote an outline and then he did a first pass and then kicked it back to me. I mean, almost John does the first pass and gets the voices down and the main theme points and his magic of being able to talk about bigger things through small ways. And then I get in and sort of add what we call the surface funk to steal a phrase from Manny Farber. And there's room to, you know, it's so based in time than how a novel or a short story works. And also sometimes John's writing for the internal and then, you know, I'll be figuring how to physicalize something. But I would say the depth of things and the overall, it's kind of a privileged place from my point of view, because someone gives you something really fabulous and then you kind of can have your way with it and get in there and do your thing. And he, you know, I don't know, he,

we're close. So, you know, he likes looking at casting tapes and stuff like that. And then we might, and I'll be out location scouting and all those things might inform you know start to inform the script and um and yeah it's like a long process but even before that happens before you decided to make this your next movie let's say you finish certain women do you are you actively charting a course where you say i know i want to do this kind of movie you say i know i want to do this kind of movie next or i know i want to do this next or is it how does it happen it's just uh more that when i'm doing this part i before i go out and do this part of uh talking about a movie i do like waking

up and having a project to work on and um if uh like when that phone rang, that was John calling to talk about the other thing. You know, it's nice to, you know, like first cows done and now there's nothing to do but talk about it. So just to have something that's more actual to be made in your mind is nice. So we started doing some scouting just to do some preliminary research work, for example, for the thing we're thinking about now. Um, it's usually soon after I'm done editing,

like I'll go back to Portland and we'll start, um, uh, you know, the drop after, for me, it's been a long ride cause I'm shooting the film and editing the film. And by the time I'm done with it, I want to step on.

I don't want a complete drop into nothingness. I want to have something to wake up and think about. So we start, I don't know, we took some trips and looked at some stuff and started to have some ideas. Yeah. One of the things I like about First Cow, and it's consistent with a lot of your other films, is it's really a story about kind of like unspoken friendship. And as you talk about the way that you and John collaborate too and the way that you guys are talking all the time, it seems like there's a real through line there

between this sort of understanding between two people. Obviously, this film opens with the William Blake quote. Yeah. You know, I assume that's something that you guys are talking through a lot over the years during the making of these films. There's a lot of talking. Yeah, and then there's, I mean, first, Cal was nice because, well, Neil Kopp and Johnny have made six films with them. The producers who really are the guys that go out and have to figure out how these films on these budgets can, you know, they're usually not the easiest to reach places.

And so they, you know, like it's an ongoing relationship with them. And then and they get involved really early. And, um, Chris Blauvelt, who, you know, I've been working with Chris Blauvelt, the cinematographer since Meek's cutoff. And also I've been working with Chris Carroll, assistant director since Meek's cutoff. And so that little triangle of the two Chrises and myself near the camera, that's a good, you know, like I really felt sort of the payoff for the investment in these relationships on this film, and so physically difficult, so cold and such long days. And it was just like when we were done with it, we were all like, you know, sort of like, OK, this is all great. Let's all go do something else. Take a break.

It seems like First Cow would also not be easy to do. It's so many exteriors. Yeah, there are all a lot of exteriors, but it wasn't the level. Certain women was the level of cold there is no dressing for if you're going to be standing outside for 18 hours a day. And we were shooting film because of the altitude and the coldness or some issues with the lenses. And also, I didn't realize how, I underestimated how hard it would be to, it was like making three different films. Like as soon as you were done with a film, a new cast was coming. And it was, I mean, I remember early on in prep of certain women,

I was like, well, I'm not going to get all stressed out this time. I'm going to like, I think I got this. And then, you know, I was like, yeah, sure. Right. And, um, but then, you know, we all sort of, um, we figured out a lot of things about, you know, like nothing stays static and it's a ever evolving thing of how to like um keep working together and um all of us and uh you know sort of be able to have these adventures with each other but first cow was it was the first time i ever shot five day weeks it was which was amazing the difference between shooting five days and just shooting every day. Is that a more money thing?

Yeah, it was a more money thing. And it pushed us into, it was like a full union. So there wasn't, there was no option for shooting a 20-hour day. Like you had to go home. Right. And it was like, oh, I'm going home. That was wonderful. And I was living in Portland.

I could go to my, it was the first time i ever went home at night uh for most of the film like some of it was on location but most of it i was going home at night and having just the days in between to think was so huge and or go to the location with the two chrises and they would play out the parts of cookie and king lou for me what can like set my shots and all, and just feeling really, because like some, when you're shooting outside,

like locations keep changing, you know, you're like going to shoot on a shoreline and the shoreline disappears because the water got rate, like, you know, natural things happen that keep you constantly having to swap things up. And so it was just nice to have those days to, and hours at night to think, you know, where I wasn't, you know, in certain women,

I'd be like, if I eat this potato, that's an hour, that's less sleep. That's going to be 10 minutes less sleep than I can have. So, you know, it wasn't, I found it, it was 30 degrees. 30 degrees and raining is completely manageable. That's fine. I could take that. Do you think the inverse was true during Wendy and Lucy or Old Joy where shooting every day and feeling maybe more desperate to complete something could have helped. That's a romantic view that I, you know, how to make what you don't have work for you. And, you know, and those were films about scarcity.

And somehow, whatever you're making a film about, you end up living like, you know, you end up in the desert with crazy Bruce Greenwald or, you know, Greenwood. Hopefully you don't end up in the desert with crazy bruce greenwald or you know greenwood and hopefully you don't end up in the desert with him hopefully yeah but you know but you know like you end up living like john you know he kept being like he'd be nice you'd be like i'm gonna write a love story so you can live through something else besides and i'm like yeah but i don't like that you know so whatever but this was great because this was a story about friendship and somehow it was um I think what the film was about did help but I also think having a little bit more of a budget helped um a lot to just be honest about it it was in it I mean it's obviously still a small budget film but

it was just uh yeah um yeah the scarcity and the other other, you know, like in Wendy and Lucy, like she doesn't have a net to operate and neither did we. You just constantly every day felt like the whole thing could fall apart. And Meek's cutoff, that was certainly true. Just like, oh, my God, is this, can we ever, can this film, are we ever, you know, can we make this film and no one will die and we'll all go home? Will that happen? It was just, you know, we were stretched too thin to a point of things being just too dangerous, really. I just,

I would never do that film again. You've talked a lot about that gap between River of Grass and Old Joy over the years. And is it, is it significantly easier for you to get a film made now? Yes. What's that like? How does it feel? It feels like age has trumped being a woman. I mean, almost, you know, I mean, small. I mean, I still have to, you know, I got to stay in my zone. But I, in fairness, you know, I am making films about, you know, I made, I just made a film with like not very well-known actors about someone stealing milk from a cow. Like anybody is letting me make that film, you know, whoever you are, that's a lucky thing. And I think what happened was,

um, in the nineties, not, uh, the nineties, not being particularly welcome place for, um, women in the indie film world, uh, made me have to like, well, A, it gave me a decade to keep studying film, which is probably good. But it also made me have to think of new ways to work. And so this sort of system of making films that I'm doing now, you know, grew out of having a two-person crew and shooting on Super 8 and then a four-person crew and shooting 16 with Old Joy or two actors, four crew, and then 13 people on Wendy and Lucy. And it's been a very gradual, like from the outside kind of world, which has ended up being very pleasing and put me in this world of, you know, I don't know what it would have been like if someone would have thrown a bunch of

money at me in the 90s. I really feel like I'm suited for these stories that I'm telling that are of more allow a person to get into the minutia of things in the small moments. And, and also it led to me teaching at, which has actually been really helpful for my filmmaking in that community where I teach at Bard college. This film is dedicated to Peter Hutton, who I taught with for 10 years there and who was just kind of a mentor to all

of us and just an overall interesting person to talk about film with. And I just, yeah, it all kind of led to nice places, you know, that are, that, yeah, it's been a really lucky decade for me for making films and being able to teach with a group of people I really like working with. Do you see yourself now looking at body of work and sort of what you're how you're because you teach and yeah so much of teaching filmmaking and film history is about the arc of certain filmmakers careers and the arc of I don't know what decades represent. I don't teach that I'm not teaching I'm teaching production so we're and it's kind of a funky film program. It's like I'm I'm like the big sellout in that program. You know, it's a it's a you know, it's a really. Yeah, it's I mean, it's pretty avant garde still. It's really kind of dinosaur and, you know, people shooting on bolexes. And I'm more in the, we're more talking about the frame and things like that in my classes. And to me, teaching is a way to step outside of my own filmmaking and

be in other, you know, it's not like, it's not like I'm making my class watch my films, for crying out loud. You know, we don't do that. So, you know, it's a way. Nah, someone else can do it. No, it's, you know, you're looking at their work and showing them things that might not have been turned on to. And, but we're, yeah, it's less, I'm not teaching the classes

where you're looking at the expanse of a, you know, like you're talking about, like it's more like, how does the camera move why what's the frame do the students refer to your work and ask you about that stuff in the classroom interesting why do you think that is they're intimidated no i just think it's just not the thing like i'm probably not sending out the signal that i uh i, I don't think they, I mean, you know, uh, who wants a, someone teaching their class that's just talking about their own stuff. That seems like a total

drag. Bad professor I've ever had though. They're so self-regarding. You're obviously being very modest. I feel like you're being celebrated. No, yeah. Oh no, but I don't, I don't, um, I mean, I'm sharing my ideas of how I think about the frame and when, how I want to, and when I want to move a camera and I'm sharing, uh, everything, uh, as far as, uh, believe me, I'm like pounding all my opinions on them, but I'm not, uh, um, yeah, I mean, there's, I mean, really the films we look at in my classes are really not at all like my films, you know. Just going back to First Cow, you mentioned you made the film with two fairly unknown actors. I'm wondering how you landed on John Magaro and Orion Lee as your leads.

Gail Keller, the very fabulous casting person who was so heroic in this movie. magaro uh was sort of on everyone's radar a little bit uh uh he had been he was in carol and so um uh and ruden had done a lot of plays with him ruden works with him a lot and is a big fan of his but when i saw him like in the sort of lineup of faces and things you're getting um and i started skyping with him and also i was just like oh my god this i was really into him he's just uh uh he just seems so cookie to me as far as uh he's pretty cookie he's got like a um what a he likes to cook but also he just um he seemed not what you would would find in a western he's not you know um he has really uh he looks like a corbe painting he looks like corbe himself he looks like you know you uh um and so i thought it would be you

know but he was an easy when i called scott him and Eli, they were just, they were totally into it. It was like not a, I mean, yeah, it's like, okay, you're going to, it's going to be this size film then, you know, if you're okay with that. Yeah, sure. So, and then Orion, it was a really hard, long search. You know, I saw hundreds of people. And Orion probably did about four readings, and he just kept, you know, when we began, we didn't have, he was in London, and we were Sky culture a lot of cultural references to land on he you know he's watches movies that are you know really different than i would uh or you know i'm and he certainly didn't know my films and we didn't you know it wasn't like uh we could just breeze into uh so it was more of a process is he watching like chinese cinema or like fast and the furious movies the latter okay yeah he i forget what his first example of a buddy movie was uh

dude where's my car something you could ask him i can't remember but it's like he'll be like shrek said and i'm like okay you know but he um he he kept doing readings that were really interesting and he was just so uh yeah he was just so present and um he just kept making impression and it just kept sort of he just kept never being off the I just kept going back to his readings all the time and but I didn't really you know see them together until they were in Oregon. Because I don't really have time to have people hang around for a long time. So they came and we put them right into April Napier, the costume designer's little machine, time machine. And they came out in their costumes,

and we sent them off in the woods together with this survivalist friend of Neil Kopp's, our producer, who happened to be someone who had studied the Chinook Wawa jargon, which is what Orion's speaking. At the end there. When he takes the canoe down the river, and Lily Gladstone and Gary Farmer all speaking that. And so we sent them off with the survivalist who had some like frozen squirrels in his freezer and they learned how to skin a squirrel and make a trap and start a fire without matches and all that good stuff and lived out in the rain for a few days. And so we did that in lieu of

rehearsing and um yeah is that common you don't usually rehearse no is there has ever been a moment when two actors showed up in costume on set for the first time and you were like oh no this isn't gonna work uh say who no um not gonna work for reasons of like maybe like this person is not understanding what they're getting into by being in this movie kind of work. Like this isn't the movie they, you know, I felt that in Meeks, I felt like that there was, you know, the thing of like what a Western is and when the person who has all the lines in the movie isn't really getting the close up and the close ups going to the person who's listening, then depending on who you are as the director, people just think like she doesn't know what she obviously doesn't know what she's doing, you know, and that's not how Westerns are done.

And we haven't even shot at sunset once, you know, and that's not how Westerns are done. And we haven't even shot at sunset once, you know, so, so I've thought like, this person thinks they're in a different movie than I think they're in before. But is that something that's not on the page? Like literalize that wasn't in the page? Like that was not Michelle Williams's face instead of? Yeah, that wasn't on the page. And I probably could have been, you know, I probably should have been more up front with that in the beginning. But also, you know, you have ideas of like, I'm going to tell this from this perspective. And you're not like with the actors until you're there and you're not, you know, I could sit out in the desert with my viewfinder, which I did forever, but then I don't have an oxen and a wagon until the day I have an oxen and a wagon. So, you know, you're finding some things out as you go. But yeah, I probably could

have articulated all that a little better in hindsight from the start instead of it being like a big surprise to everybody. It's interesting that you were mentioning when you talked to Scott and Eli about going with John and then the conversation being, well, this is going to be a movie at this size ultimately instead of that. And your last, I don't know, three, four, five movies have been with pretty big movie stars, even if they're still on a small scale. Does that change anything creatively for you then when they're like, okay, this is now a little maybe smaller than you expected really honestly this was my biggest budget which is you know a small budget to most people but it was my

biggest budget but yeah they were not these name actors i mean michelle williams is in wendy and lucy she's like sitting on the side of the curb all day long with no, not like she had a trailer or something. So it's weird the way that's worked out. No, they just mean more that, I mean, the thing about making movies this size is you have a lot of freedom. Nobody's like, nobody comes to set to look at what we're doing. Nobody's, I'm like, I'm in the editing room by myself or my editing assistant and bringing some friends in to look at cuts. But it's not like anybody's

really, it's just your, your hands are really free. It's not, you know, it's not worth any, you know, not that people don't care, but nobody's like hanging over my, um, there aren't these, it doesn't have to meet these goals or certain standards of anything. Um, just means accepting that this is, you know, in this part of it that I'm in now, that it's going to have this kind of a release versus some other kind of release. But I don't know, A24 is out there with the movie and it's all been good. So yeah, I haven't felt some sacrifice for it i i i loved working with these guys and um yeah it was it was never not interesting like from the moment we started it was just like wow this is really these guys are interesting together so i have a couple more filmmaking

questions for you i noticed i re-watched meeks before watching first cow again and you shoot in the dark a lot yes and that's like kind of a no-no for quote-unquote mainstream filmmaking and I like how you're kind of fearless about it and it's like you're just not going to be able to see anything maybe the face um is that difficult to do just it shouldn't just be you just see the face problem with that is like there is like there are some versions of night moves out there on the uh dvd or something where you just literally can see the you know that's because i find clearer right okay then first cow maybe just because of the period of time when they're taking place

no it's just you know what it is it's like usually maybe a director will be like let's go darker and then you have your dp who goes like well we're not in the zone we can't go any darker but me and chris blauvelt are both like let's go darker and like we don't there's neither of us that like toes the line of like we and so you go in the color timing the guy goes like well you're way under the standard of uh so i like the darkness darkness where there's a lot of dark scenes. So, yeah, we have to pull each other back a little bit from the darkness. This is not a criticism. I like it. No, I know. I like darkness too, but the floating faces, that I'm not into.

I like there to be some depth in the darkness. Intellectually, is it just sort of in keeping with the naturalism that you're going for in the performances, in the setting of the films? Yeah. Naturalism is such a weird word because, yeah, I don't always feel like everything's so, you know, I don't, I mean, in the performances, yeah, there is more of a naturalism. But I, yeah, anyway, not to go down that rabbit hole, but it's, yeah, I mean, darkness. There's people creeping around at night and the nighttime. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, like in Meeks, the idea was like there would be these incredibly bright days and then the darkness would come and it would just be like the days are loud because of the wagons and bright. And then you'd have this like complete darkness and, uh,

you know, just candlelight and firelight and real silence. And so that contrast seemed important. Um, but, uh, and of course, night moves,

they're sneaking around. They got to do that at night. So, um, yeah, there's just happens to be a lot of, uh, night scenes. So, yeah, there just happens to be a lot of night scenes in these films that sometimes I don't even really realize until we're breaking it down. And Chris Carroll, the assistant director I work with all the time, is like showing me the breakdown, like, you know, three's almost like a cat burglar movie set in the 1820s. I really like it. Likewise, like the, I mentioned the exteriors earlier and being outside all the time and that being a recurrent theme in a lot of your films too. Like, is there a specific reason that you find yourself continuing to tell stories that are taking place not in rooms with people talking right yeah well i'm not interested in shooting people talking for sure um but uh uh you know in the beginning you know things that started out in the beginning were like when i first wrote john raymond said do you have any short stories i was all like they could take

place outside because i knew i didn't have any crew or lights um and and, I would start it. I edited the films because we couldn't afford a editor. And so, and then it just became, I got used to shooting outside. And I remember in Night Moves, there's like a kitchen scene. It was like, I hadn't shot inside for a really long time. It was just like four walls. I was so stumped. It was a panic. I was just like, I don't know how to shoot inside. I how to block it. Yeah. I just couldn't figure out how to make that room work. And I was really thrown by it. And so for certain women, I was actively like, I got to get inside sometimes and figure this out and deal with some interiors. And then on First Cal, this was the first time that I was able, with Tony Gasparro, the production designer, to plot out my shots and then build the hutches according to sort of what I wanted, which I know people do that all the time, but I had never has to do with this, you know, everything goes back to these stories we're telling that, you know, a lot of them do have to do with, you know, like in First Cow, sort of this seeds of capitalism versus the natural world and this question of these things coexisting.

And so, so, yeah, a lot of the, we're outside a lot. It's not like my crew wants to go inside, but they would definitely like to go to a warmer climate, I think. Understandable. With that in mind, and I guess since this is the biggest film that you've made, do you aspire to do something bigger, even if it's outside of the kind of typical Hollywood expectations that come around that? Like, is there a bigger version of your kind of film? Bigger how? Like, this is like pretty – this is like talking about capitalism and the beginning of time and just what happened to a region. These are big topics.

I don't mean thematically. I think maybe just in terms of – because you mentioned in John's book, it takes place over a vast period of time. There's potentially like set pieces. Time is something. You know, well, I really – time is like the question. Like could I make a film that spans years? I don't know if I – it's not like really what I'm drawn to. The thing we're working on now, again, it's like, okay, here's these two weeks.

You know, because you can really get in deep and um i like the little stuff i like the um you know like how many chores can you show someone doing if you have to like tell their whole life story you know um uh so i don't know you know never say i'm all up for having more money to spend. Sure. You know, but I'm not. I don't want to sacrifice. Yeah.

But you have to. Yeah. You have to. It's hard to tell personal stories in. You know, it always seems like a sinking ship and this is the end but somehow it keeps chugging along that these you know not mine exclusively like that personal stories do get out but it's a um you know when i always say like when i walk down the aisle of the airplane and i look at what everyone's looking at i'm just like oh my god how do we ever get to make any of these films at all is kind of a miracle but uh yeah so it it's cool why it lasts yeah who knows um but i don't have a uh i mean usually when things come that are bigger it's like they're coming

they're like here's a thing that comes with you know this is attached and this it's already at a certain stage as opposed to um and you've never really done that i've never done that i've never i i can't imagine yeah i haven't i've always worked from the very beginning and uh until the end and not i've never like come on something that's already developed in a way or already a total idea and so yeah it's not, I like the early stages. So. Is it because you serve fewer masters in those circumstances? Well, yeah, there's already people. Well, also it's just like how you figure out, like I like, like how you figure out what you're making and what you want to make and you just discovering

a world and how you're going to get at it and all those things would already be decided for you. And, um, and it's true. There would already be like voices, like, I don't know. It's just, um, it's just a different process that I haven't yet tried. It's a good segue where you're saying about looking at the movies and when you're in the aisle on the air on the airplane, um, We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. Oh, you know, I saw this film when I was just lost in New York a little while ago that I was really just trying, it was pouring down rain and I went into film form and there was this film Midnight Traveler playing.

It's a documentary, right? It's a documentary. It's shot on cell phones. I was like, well, last at this for 10 minutes, I'll just sit here until the rain stops. And I got so taken with it. And then I thought,

Oh, I hope everyone sees this movie. Um, it's a, it's about, uh, a husband and wife and who are both filmmakers and the Taliban has put a hit out on them.

And they're, um, sort of on the run with their two kids and they're filming their life, uh, in and out of camps and trying to get some kind of asylum and, uh, in Australia or the U S and you're just, um, you're just on this incredible journey with them. But the filmmaking is so lyrical and has in beautiful moments, you're just a married couple and their kids and what it's like to be a kid and just growing up with no stability, how you, you know, there's a scene of the daughter just listening to her iPhone and some camp

dancing to Michael Jackson song. You're just like, wow, you know, like pop culture sneaks in and just completely unexpected all Michael Jackson's song. You're just like, wow. You know, like pop culture sneaks in and just completely unexpected all the time to me and really gracefully shot. I think Oscilloscope has it. And I just, yeah, I really, I really dug it. It's a great recommendation. Kelly, thank you for doing this.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks again to Kelly Reichardt. And thanks, of course, to Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan. Next week on The Big Picture, we'll be talking about the new Pixar release, Onward. See you then.