The Big Picture - Top Five Matt Damon Movies and James Mangold on ‘Ford v Ferrari’ | The Big Picture

Episode Date: November 15, 2019

With the release of the Christian Bale–Matt Damon racing two-hander, we look back on Damon’s best performances, including the iconic ‘Good Will Hunting’ and the lesser-known ‘Dogma’ (0:45). Then, James Mangold joins to discuss ‘Ford v Ferrari’ and the threat that a changing movie industry presents to movies like it (58:30). Host: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and James Mangold Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessy and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about fast cars and faster IP. We're celebrating the Christian Bale, Matt Damon vehicle Ford versus Ferrari today. Later in the show, I have a long and fun conversation with James Mangold. He's the director of Ford versus Ferrari and Logan and Walk the Line and many other very good movies. But first, we are going to talk about a subject near and dear to our hearts. We're going to talk about Matt Damon. And I'm joined by a couple of Matt Damon super fans, Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan. Hi, guys.

What's up, Sean? Hello, Sean. How is it going? You have the best of me on this podcast. I'm so excited about that. I, before we began recording, was thinking about what it is that I love about Matt Damon and what makes him such a wonderful movie star. And truthfully, I don't really know.

And I was hoping we could start our conversation right there by saying, why is Matt Damon so good? And why is he so frequently in good movies? Which seems obvious, but maybe you guys can help me understand. I have a cute answer based on what you just said, which is I think the fact that you don't know is part of his power. Matt Damon has made a lot in his life and in the interviews that he's tried to do of the fact that he doesn't want to be a movie star or a tabloid star that the less you know about an actor, the more powerful that actor is because they can disappear into roles. And he's done a pretty good job of it. I mean, we know that he has a wife and we know that he has three daughters

and we know that he's best friends with Ben Affleck. But otherwise, you don't see him in paparazzi shots. He is pretty great in interviews of just avoiding all questions. And he's hard to pin down as a person. And that does allow him to try on a lot of different hats or roles as the case may be. Yeah. I mean, this is honestly, so we're doing top five Matt Damon movies. And I think this is the hardest one I've done out of all the pods that we've done where we've done top fives harder than Scorsese. And I was looking through his filmography and there are 26 Matt Damon movies that I like,

like at least like. How many do you love? Like, at least a dozen. Okay. I think. That's a high percentage. Now, here's the thing. I don't always love them because Matt Damon is in them. But he happens to be in them.

And I was trying to think, like, okay, so like, you know, by comparison, I would say like, going through Tom Hanks' filmography, I liked 22 of those movies. But I was trying to think about, like, what is it?

What is it about Matt Damon? And, you know, I kept coming back to Edward Norton. because, you know, I think you did a great interview with him on The Big Pick and he's been around a lot with Motherless Brooklyn and they were in Rounders together. And if you had been taking bets when Rounders came out about who's going to have a better career, I think it would even be foolish to bet on Damon there. Like Edward Norton was probably considered the best actor of his generation in and around that time, American History X, Fight Club, even up through 25th Hour. I think

you can make the argument that he's like, man, he's just going to be like the guy. And then Damon's obviously far outpaced him. And why is that? Like, it's not like, it's not like Damon has ever become like a much better actor than Edward Norton, but he's been in much better movies and he's made much better choices. And in some ways, I wonder whether or not Damon's gift, aside from the relatability that Amanda was talking about, is his taste. And the fact that he is a movie star who doesn't mind being the fifth guy in Ocean's Eleven, or the fourth person in Contagion or the second person

in The Departed. He understands how to be in movies that bring out the best in him, even if he isn't always the best part of those movies. I also found this to be a challenging exercise, choosing the top five, because of what Chris is saying. There are a ton of great Matt Damon performances. There are also a ton of great Matt Damon stunts and cameos. On this show in the past, the three of us, Amanda and I especially, have chosen stunty objects

as stand-ins in the top fives. For Will Smith, we would choose one scene from Bad Boys or a performance on The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Matt Damon is a little bit different. He has had some TV stunt work. His appearances on Jimmy Kimmel

could count for that. But for the most part, he appears in a lot of movies. He is a very, very present figure through the last essentially 25 years of American movies. Some of them are blockbusters. Some of them are IP. Some of them are awards fair. Some of them are just as sort of like domestic dramas that we don't see as much of. And some of them are science fiction epics. Like he really is in every kind of movie. He touches every sort of thing. He's been in an HBO movie and he's been in a Christopher Nolan movie.

He's been in, you know, he's appeared in a movie for one minute and he's appeared in a movie for nonstop for two and a half hours. It's kind of an amazing versatility. And it has made this really challenging for for me I had a hard time as well and I found myself I wanted to make an interesting list versus wanting to represent like actually the best of Matt Damon and I there are a list of stunty things that I have that are under honorable mentions but he's done so many different things and so many different quadrants that it feels cheap to put like say I'm, I'm fucking Matt Damon, which you mentioned, which was a pretty interesting moment in.

I mean, that feud, as Matt Damon talked about on Bill Simmons' podcast this week, is like 10 years running now and is a source of comic fuel to them. And that's fascinating that someone can be like in on the punchline of a joke for that long. But he's also worked with pretty much every great director or every great male director at this point and tries a lot of things. And so just trying to wrap my arms around everything, all the different types of movies that he's done from like pure blockbuster to like art house 90s to all the different types of like roles that he's played it kind of becomes it's hard and it's not like the most editor interesting list that I've ever made if that makes any sense I think what I'm trying to say here is my line list is really basic, but that's okay. And maybe in some ways Matt Damon is also basic as rude. Kind of basic, but he's at the center, I guess, of the culture. Yeah. He doesn't have, and it's funny that you mentioned Tom Hanks,

Chris, because he doesn't have that Hanksy and every man quality. He got famous playing a genius. And so there is something a little bit elevated and distant from him. He reminds me a little bit more of like the Steve McQueen kind of movie star or even Denzel Washington where you're like, there's like an otherness there that I don't quite have access to.

And part of it is because of what you identified. I think we just don't know that much about him. But it's like, it kind of goes back to that Northern thing I'm thinking about

where it's like Matt Damon rarely dominates the movie that he's in. Like even in the movies that like you talk about Denzel, Denzel is like, crushes those, like he crushes Glory, he crushes Crimson Tide against Gene Hackman. He's just going toe to toe.

Matt Damon never really does that. I mean, you can see it in Ford versus Ferrari. In this movie, it is ultimately, it becomes Christian Bale's show, even though his role and what Damon does is absolutely central. It is Carol Shelby, the famous car racer and car designer, and is an interesting figure in the history of American motors.

But he takes a backseat, almost literally, to Christian Bale in the movie, and he seems comfortable doing that. He seems comfortable playing third fiddle to Clooney and Pitt. He seems comfortable popping up for five minutes in Interstellar. It's kind of a, There's just something very rare about the way that he's organized his career that I think makes this kind of a fun conversation. I'm kind of eager to share my honorable mentions and supporting Hall of Fames, but I also think we could step on each other's lists. So let's just say this is a person who's

been nominated for five Academy Awards. And I think his nominations actually speak to the variety that you find in his career. So he's been nominated twice for Best Actor for Good Will for five Academy Awards. And I think his nominations actually speak to the variety that you find in his career. So he's been nominated twice for Best Actor for Good Will Hunting and The Martian. He won for Neither.

Once for Supporting Actor for Invictus. You guys remember Invictus? I do. I imagine it's not on either of your lists. I mean, I remember seeing it. I don't remember really

what happens in it. I don't think I saw Invictus. Okay, that's amazing. It's a Clint Eastwood film about rugby. It's amazing that I didn't see Invictus? Yes.

He's also nominated and won for Best Original Screenplay, Ben Affleck for Good Will Hunting. And he was nominated for Best Picture for Manchester by the Sea. Can I say one honorable mention that I don't think will step on anyone's list, but you could put the Damon and Affleck Oscar speech

on a top five list. Absolutely. And for anyone else, I might. Because that, in terms of, that might be the greatest Oscar speech. Let's hear it right now. You know, we're just really two young guys who were fortunate enough to be involved with a lot of great people, whom

it's coming upon us to, there's no way we're doing this in less than 20 seconds, upon whom it's incumbent of us to thank Harvey Weinstein, who believed in us and made this movie, Gus Van Sant's for brilliant direction, we're doing this in less than 20 seconds. Upon whom it's incumbent of us to thank. Harvey Weinstein who believed in us and made this movie. Gus Van Sant for brilliant direction. Robin Williams who delivered to the street lines. Minnie Driver who performed his brain. Stellan Skarsgård who was great. Your brother. My brother Casey who's brilliant in the movie. Cole Hauser. Cole Hauser. My mother and Matt's mother, the most beautiful women here.

My dad right over there. Jack said hi to you. Who else? John Gordon from Miramax. Chris Moore produced the movie. Chris Moore. Patrick Weitzel, the best agent in Hollywood. Yeah, Patrick Weitzel. And Cuba Gooding for showing us how to give our acceptance speech. And all our friends and family.

And everybody back in Boston watching us tonight. And thank you so much to the city of Boston. And I know we're forgetting somebody. Whoever we forgot, we love you and we thank you. Thank tonight. Thank you so much the city of Boston and I know we're forgetting somebody. Whoever we forgot, we love you. We love you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

I think it's pretty good. It's pretty, I think what you want is youthful exuberance and that's what that speech delivers. Should we dive in? What do we need to say? Anything more

before we get further in? No, let's get into it. Amanda, why don't you kick us off? Okay. Number five. I think this will be unexpected but I'm going with The Departed at number five.

How the fuck do you know that? Where'd they put you? Hey, Frank, I gotta find myself. You're telling me, sonny boy. I gotta find the guy you got in the department. Okay, this is on my list. I, full disclosure, don't

totally understand what happens in this movie. I still don't. If I had to diagram it and someone's life depended on it, that person would die. But what I do understand is Matt Damon hitting on Vera Farmiga in an elevator. And there is something about the charisma. And he is a little bit louder in this movie. I think you were mentioning he kind of takes a backseat. He's often quite reserved or is often hiding something or kind of working on the lines between public and private or just what a character or a person would want anyone to know about them.

But this is kind of, I mean, this is definitely a duplicitous character, but that duplicity is like baked into the text. And I always love it when people are commenting on themselves. And this is not just commenting on like likable Matt Damon, but also like Matt, Boston Matt Damon. It's the fucking Boston Olympics in this movie. Yeah, exactly. And it's more charisma than usual from Matt Damon. He doesn't like to show it. He has it and can, you know, do it in a Jimmy Kimmel video or at the Oscars.

But this, he kind of gets to shine a bit. And I think it's pretty fun. It's a bunch of immensely likable actors being sort of unlikable to the point of likability in The Departed. Yeah, and he's juxtaposed with Leo and, you know, their whole mirroring of one another throughout the movie, sometimes quite literally, where Leo is somebody who's so vulnerable and is basically, even though he's undercover, quote unquote, there's no secrets with him in his fear of hormiga therapy sessions. He's just like, I just want the pills. He's so open and everything about Damon is closed off, even though he's pretending to be spit shine

Johnny perfect one day I'm going to be a congressman yeah and I think that duplicity that you're talking about is what I reacted to this is my number four on the list because going back and re-watching this movie first of all it's just one of the easiest re-watches of all time it's just it's a warm bath but the scene between him and Alec Baldwin Baldwin is hitting golf balls and they're talking about why it's good to be married yeah and he's like you know makes him makes him know that your cock works and he's like yeah it's working overtime yeah thank you working overtime and it's so transparently slimy and phony and dishonest you know there's obviously something insecure about this character. There's something, there's like an absence of masculinity,

a masculated quality to Damon's character that is so good and requires a kind of like a, like a self-awareness, a comfort with your own persona to take a part like that and to play it well.

And he plays it so well in this movie. It's one of the, I don't often think of him as a great actor, even though he routinely is a great actor, but this is a really great

acting performance by him. I think it's his best performance. Oh, I took that one. No, but I think exactly what you're saying. I couldn't resist saying it is his best pure performance, I think, in a lot of ways. He inhabits a role in a way. So that's good to know.

We'll let you vamp on it even more as we go later on down the list. Chris, what's your number five? My number five is Courage Under Fire. She was probably killed by small arms before napalm ever hit. Either way, she never could have survived that stomach wound. You think that matters? No. Which is a movie that he was in in

1996. It stars Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan. It is absolutely the kind of movie they don't really make anymore. It's basically a legal thriller slash military thriller where, you know, I guess we're doing spoilers for all these movies, right? Yeah, I think a 23-year-old drama directed by Ed Zwick.

Okay. Meg Ryan plays a character who dies in combat in the Iraq War, and they're basically going to posthumously award her the Congressional Medal of Honor, but Denzel Washington is investigating whether or not she, in fact, deserves it. There's a lot of confusion about what happened during

this conflict that she was in, this battle that she was in. And Matt Damon plays the medic who is assigned to work with her and he gives, initially, he gives a regular she was great, she totally deserves it statement

in the beginning and then you know as the mystery kind of unravels we find out that his character is a heroin addict who is like live like reclusively off in the woods somewhere and denzel washington finally tracks him down and they have this scene where we find damon is completely emaciated it's one of like the great physical transformation roles that he's ever gone through but it's like the physical transformation is kind of aside from the emotional performance that he gives. And he does this incredible scene with Denzel and talk about going toe-to-toe with people.

Washington completely seeds the scene to him. And it's this beautiful kind of revelatory moment. And I really love this movie. And it's a really interesting what- of Matt Damon character actor because he was among these guys like Affleck and Leo and and Wahlberg and and Edward Norton who were all going for the same kind of roles at the same time I think Norton talked to Bill about going for Rainmaker and losing that to Damon you know all these guys going for the same roles and you don't know how it would have broken in any other kind of way and there's a world in which Damon is just kind of like

chipping away at these like small character parts for the next 10, 20 years. So I really, I always loved this movie. I love that movie too. I'm afraid to stomp on anybody's list by suggesting that he has other great supporting roles like this. I mean, I had, I almost did all a bunch of supporting roles at number five and then that seemed like cheating, I mean, I almost did a bunch of supporting roles at number five and then that seemed like cheating. But yes, he does. No one has true grit here, right?

I mean, he's so good in true grit. And it's a similar thing. He plays Labeef, which is one of them. And he's hilarious. And he is transformative. He doesn't look like Matt Damon. He doesn't sound like Matt Damon.

He does have kind of that like shit-eating grin on his face that you can recognize. But it's in the same vein of he'll kind of pop up and transform in a way that you were not expecting in movies. And he does that once every five to 10 years, which I appreciate. Yeah. Was anyone brave enough to put Margaret on the list?

I do have it in my supporting. You have it. OK, all right. I mean, that's exactly. And it's haunting. I almost did it. And part of it is because he shows up and it's definitely Matt Damon, but it's also a Matt Damon that you never want to see. Yes, exactly.

And it's horrifying. And that's because he's very good. Yeah. Great movie. Upsetting movie. My number five might be a Matt Damon that no one else wants to see, but I still like it. And it's a movie called Dogma. Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of fear of some intangible parent figure who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says do it

and I'll fucking spank you. Which is a Kevin Smith movie. Punch it in. The eschewverse. The view esaskewniverse is alive and well here on the big picture. Here's the plot of Dogma.

Ben Affleck and Matt Damon play two fallen angels who are trying to exploit a loophole to get back into heaven. Yeah. That's the plot of this movie

starring a lot of movie stars. It was made at the height of Miramax's power that is essentially an assault on modern concepts of religion that is also like a pot comedy. In which Alanis Morissette plays God. She does. Not necessarily the best movie, not necessarily holding up well, but it is the underrated Ben and Matt duo performance. It's the movie in which

they get to talk more than any other movie they made, including Good Will Hunting. And I feel like we've been longing for a Ben and Matt movie for a long time. What's the burger cup? Is it Moo Burger? Mubi Burger?

Mubi Burger, yeah. Yeah, when they go and they address like the board of directors about their sins. Yeah, and then they murder all of them. Yeah, it's just a wild, bizarre movie. The movie opens with a great conversation between their two characters these two angels and it happens inside of an

airport and they're the the film opens with matt damon convincing a uh a nun to give up her faith by exploiting all of her insecurities about religion. And then Ben and Matt's characters observe humanity in this airport. And they explain how it's the only place in the world where we see purity of emotion. It's the only place in the world where people can be authentically happy to see each other when they're reunited. Now, this is a pre-9-11 movie. And so that's not what airports are anymore. But it was a reminder of a different kind of America, a different kind of airport in this country delivered to me by Matt Damon.

And this is list making at its finest, Dogma number five. Thank you for bringing airports back, Dogma. Appreciate you. Can I tell a very quick anecdote about Dogma? Yeah. So 1997 is Good Will Hunting and also Titanic. And if you were a teenage girl in America in 1997 and you were interested in men, then you really had to. It was an identity test.

Were you going to pick Leo and Titanic or are you going to pick Matt Damon and Good Will Hunting? And most people went with Leo. And I, like young adversarial Amanda, went with Matt Damon and felt really strongly about it. And I was just like, Matt Damon is the one. Screw this. Can you break down, like, did you have, like, a lot of interactions about this? Did you have, like, fights with friends about this? I mean, I wouldn't say they were, like, fights, but definitely discussions.

I mean, this is the era when people my age were going to see Titanic, like, eight times in theaters. Like, that definitely happened. And it was kind of, you were staking out. I mean, it's just like now where who you like is a claim to who you are. So there was some fighting about it. And I was like,

no, no, no, Matt Damon and also Ben Affleck, they really got it. And then like Dogma comes out and I'm like, you're going to see. Here it is. And then being a teenage girl

going to see Dogma and being like, this is our guy. It's not what you want. It's not what you want. Sean and I don't know anything about that because we were just

hanging out at airports. Crushing a movie burger. Yeah. Hanging out. I did. You know, talking about Catholicism. It's weird. But in high school, my friends and I, we were like sometimes when we were because you're

looking for stuff to do because you can't go to bars yet. We would go to the airport. Just like walk around. Because you could still. Yeah. What would you do at the airport? We'd get like a burger we'd like

like just like because they would kind of weird at the Philly airport yeah alright yeah

I can't tell if you're fucking with me or not I'm really not did you like watch the planes was it like you'd go play mini golf like how many times can you go to mini golf or the mall

so like sometimes you'd mix it up and go to the airport I gotta say I didn't see this one coming are you like going into the special lounges or are you watching a plane?

You could do whatever you wanted because it would be like kind of late at night and there was no rules. Like you could just go up to the gates. And then what happened? It's just like, you just kind of were like, isn't this weird? We're in this like, you know, public space,

but like going through adolescence. Did you ever accidentally wake up like in Austria one day? Somehow I found myself on a plane. They still had like the ticketing process. So it wasn't like you could just hop flights. Gotcha. Okay.

Interesting. Well, as usual, Kevin Smith, seer of seers. Prognosticator of prognosticators. Okay, so departed, courage under fire, dogma. Yes.

Number four, Amanda. Okay. Born identity. So I can see me in our spouse. No, I don't. Your papyrus. I don't have any papers.

I lost my papyrus. I lost my papers. I lost them. Okay. This has got to be on Chris's list. This is on my list. Yeah. I'm sorry that I'm flipping the thing. No, let's do it together.

No, this is what it's all about. It's all about Amanda Vulture and Chris's top two. Yeah, I know. I feel bad. I think there are very few other people that could play this role. And have you actually, A, empathize with the character, B, believe it when he's just like confused and I don't know what's going on. Matt Damon is definitely borrowing on all of his like American boy next door charm, even as he is doing all of the physical stuff that indicates that he's a serious assassin. And pretty much anyone else would figure it out.

But he is so bewildered and kind of reserved, as we've been talking about, like not in touch with what's happening, that you believe it. It's also, the whole romantic plot is awesome. And also really does not work unless it's someone as hot and likable as Matt Damon. He's like, can I cut your hair? Yeah. And you're just like, yes. Honestly, if Matt Damon and Bored Identity came in today and was like, I need you to drive me to wherever the hell we're going.

And it's very clear. Temecula. And we've just been in an embassy. Yeah. And it's very, and it's been on lockdown and there's some legal altercations. Like I would do it today. Yeah. And it's very, and it's been on lockdown and there's some legal altercations. Like, I would do it today. Yeah. Like, with everything

in my life, as it is organized now, I'd just be like, see you guys later. I'm sorry to my husband. I will drive that Matt Damon across the country. And that's powerful.

Would you let him cut your hair? Yes. It's a true testament to love. I'm also going to say, Matt Damon has... That is like one

of the hottest scenes. Yeah, and he does not always have believable romantic interests. I think it's not a coincidence that I've chosen to part it in Bored Identity because those are the two times where you're like, yo, Matt Damon. Yeah. So, yeah, I would. I would recreate that. What about you?

Would you let him cut your hair? Whatever there's left to cut, for sure. I mean, I think that it's worth noting a couple of things. One is how shocking Born Identity was when it came out. So not only in terms of the Matt Damon trajectory where he had had a couple of years of being like, it may not happen for him as a movie star, like All the Pretty Horses was like a sort of historic disaster,

which I think he's often talked about being the one that got away and like the Billy Bob Thornton original version of that movie would have been his favorite movie that you've ever been in. And he'd done Ocean's 11 where he'd been a supporting actor, but like the majestic, I think he's just got a cameo in. He does Jerry, which is,

you know, not a big movie by any means. And then he's just kind of like waiting around in there. And then born comes out and born was a new kind of action movie. It felt incredibly fresh and of the moment. It was the first real blockbuster I saw since The Matrix at that point, where I was like, this has something new to say within this genre of movie, in this kind of action espionage genre.

And the choices that they made to make it with somebody who was not a traditional Keanu-looking action star, and to cast Franco Patente as the romantic lead. And they were very clear about it has to be a European actress that nobody knows or it won't be believable. It's one of my favorite

Damon performances easily. I think it's number three for me. I don't have a big relationship with the Bourne franchise. And I can't say I understand why I don't, but I don't. Do you like Bond movies? I like them.

Yeah, but you're, Chris, that's another thing that Chris and I share. Yeah, yeah. I think, I honestly can't put my finger on it. I think I probably like the Bourne legacy more than I like a lot of the other ones

because of the feel and the filmmaking I never quite, the Paul Greengrass, Matt Damon connection. Right. I assume no one here has Green Zone on their list. No. Which is kind of an interesting movie. Maybe hasn't aged that well in light of everything that we've learned,

not on like Zero Dark Thirty, but that style of filmmaking, for whatever reason, just never clicked with me mentally. So it does not appear on my list. And it's also worth noting is the same way that it saves his career in some ways, it easily sets up the next 20 years because he makes three of these movies they're gigantic hits and he's essentially allowed to go do whatever he wants for the rest of his life because of these it does set him up in an

interesting way as a just an action figure you know he goes on to make movies like green like green zone like elysium like he does i don't think he would have he certainly wouldn't wouldn't have had that kind of opportunity to be a sort of like physical movie star, which I guess every great movie star ultimately has that kind of versatility. What is your number four, Chris? My number four is Contagion. Mr. Amoff, I'm sorry. Your wife is dead. I mean, I just I just saw her. We were just at home. Is there somebody that we can call?

Someone who you think should be here with you? So I wanted to celebrate his collaboration with Steven Soderbergh. He's made eight movies with him, I think. Is that true? Yeah, but you kind of wouldn't know because sometimes he's... He pops up. He's informant and he's in every shot and sometimes he's just in a few scenes.

I really always loved what Soderbergh had to say about Damon's performance in Contagion. For those who don't know, it's about a pandemic virus outbreak and it's very much in the style of other Steven Soderbergh, Scott Burns collaborations where it's kind of like almost like a season of TV in one movie. It's kind of an ensemble that globetrotts and tells the story from a bunch of different perspectives. But Damon plays this guy, Mitch, whose wife is played by Gwyneth Paltrow,

who dies, I think, in like the second or third scene of the movie. Fantastic death scene. Yeah, exactly. And his whole thing, and when we talk about this sort of the relatability of Matt Damon, the every-manness of him is in this movie. And Soderbergh's always said, like, it never felt like he was aware that the cameras were on.

Like, he was doing this part where, and obviously he just wanted to be in a Steven Soderbergh movie. He said he read the script and just wanted to, like, take any part he could. But his reaction to Gwyneth Paltrow's death is some of the best acting he's done. It completely, it's just like this warped thing where you're like, this movie's breaking all the rules.

Like, Gwyneth Paltrow's not supposed to die. She's not supposed to have cheated on the Matt Damon character. He's not supposed to kind of be grappling with this feelings of like, I'm obviously not glad my wife's dead, but it's complicated now that I know she was cheating on me and all this stuff.

And his reaction to her death and his performance throughout the movie is fantastic. That's a really good one. What's your favorite Soderbergh-Damon combo? So I was going to say, and I was very self-conscious about this, I don't have a single Soderbergh performance on my top five. And I mean, spoiler, sorry. I don't either. And I love Steven Soderbergh, one of my favorite working directors. And I was trying to think about that. I had Ocean's Twelve on at one point because, as we all know, Ocean's Twelve, delightful movie. And that is when Matt Damon gets to do the most. And he has the scene with Julia Roberts. And he's like, I, I wasn't in Four Weddings and a Funeral, which delights me.

But again, he's the fourth, fifth person in that movie. And he's being really funny and definitely playing into the idea of Matt Damon, but it's subtle. And, you know, but I rewatched it and didn't put it on the list. I rewatched The Informant and didn't put it on the list. I think The Informant is like his biggest or most like capital I important Soderbergh collaboration.

And I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anybody's list by talking about that one. I think there is something about, you know, Sean and I talk and all three of us talk a lot about Soderbergh. And what I like about him is how he makes it look so easy. He is so relaxed. But there's something about Soderbergh taking not even taking a backseat, but making it be very chill that when combined with Matt Damon's inherent backseat chillness, it just doesn't become as essential to me somehow, even though

I really enjoy it. No, that makes sense. I mean, he's definitely caught Soderbergh at a specifically experimental phase of his career. I mean, he appears in Che, Part 2, a bunch of other movies, obviously. I don't want to say say any that that Sean picked but yeah I didn't pick any

I mean I I love The Informant it is in my it's definitely in my top 5 not behind the Cadillabra either but not behind the Cadillabra either

which is great and probably deserving of a rewatch I haven't seen it since it first aired and I remember loving it and Damon is similarly to the

performances you're describing like he's just hilarious in Behind the Cadillabra it's a great comic performance with dramatic strokes. But I don't know. Maybe, once again, maybe just taking Soderbergh for granted. Maybe just not giving him the credit he deserves.

Eight performances together is a lot. That's fascinating. My number four was The Departed. So we can go on to Amanda's number three. My number three is The Martian. Mark Watney, astronaut. I'm entering this log for the record in case I don't make it. It is 0653 on Sol 19 and I'm alive. Okay. This is some movie star shit.

I mean, that's what it is. And we all said it at the time. And we were talking a little bit before the podcast about the various phases of Matt Damon's career. And this comes after a quieter phase is maybe the kindest way to put it. Parallels with Born in some ways. Yes. And it's also in a lot of ways, this is his Tom Hanks movie. I mean, obviously, like a guy stuck in space or, you know, stuck on an island and kind of carrying the movie.

It is, to me, his most everyman, likable, just like rooting for him type of. It's his broadest performance, I guess, on my list. And it's still, even though he is definitely like a hero in this movie, there is a little sarcasm. There is a little punchiness to it that I think is an underrated aspect of Matt Damon. As I was doing prep for this, I realized he gets compared to Jimmy Stewart a lot. And with all respect to Matt Damon, who seems like a really lovely good person he's got a little more edge than Jimmy Stewart I completely I don't think people give him enough credit for it and I think you can this is a great balance of that wholesomeness and and also the slight

arrogance yeah that that makes his performances work for me this is essentially a 100 million dollar vlog this movie and you can really easily go through this movie and just like, who else could have done this? Really? Like who, like, I don't think DiCaprio could do the potato scene. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure he could.

But like the idea is essentially that despite all the other stuff that's happening with like what's going on down on the ground and like there's great special effects and the panoramic shots of what's supposed to be Mars. It's essentially just like a two-hour movie where you're like watching this guy try to farm and not get too addicted to opiates when he's like sprinkling them onto his potatoes. So it's like a complete and pure test of his charm. Yeah, I think that you both have put your fingers on something, which is that he has a unique combination, unique really to any movie actor that I can think of,

of friendliness coupled with overconfidence. And that is kind of suffused in a lot of his movies. You know, Tom Hanks is effortlessly friendly. You know, Christian Bale is hugely stormy. Denzel is a sort of powerful and distinctive. Matt Damon is like kind of a shithead, but kind of your best friend in every movie

and that's such a that's such a unique ability. Chris, what about you? What's your number three? So three was born. Three was number born. My number three I assume someone's

going to have this is the talented Mr. Ripley. You're so white. Did you ever see a guy so white, Marge? Gray, actually. It's just an undercoat. Say again?

You know, a primer. That's funny. Margie likes that, because she's so white. Yes, I do, and you're not funny. Well, you should come and have lunch with us before you go. Yes, thank you. Sure, any time. Well, you should come and have lunch with us before you go. Yes, thank you. Sure, anytime. Well, coincidence.

That's my number one. I had a strong feeling about that. That's fine. Speaking of evil fuckers, you know? Speaking of shaded and complex and dark and interesting decision making in a career. You know, to choose this part at this time to subvert our expectations of the kinds of movies, to un-Jimmy Stewart yourself in this way by taking on this project, by working with someone like Anthony Minghella, by letting yourself be pitched with that alabaster skin and those, you know know those cheeky glasses against that golden god jude law in the movie you know like really an amazing choice for an actor of his caliber one that i think most would really not take they wouldn't let themselves be this sort of retiring

malevolent sort of freakish figure like ripley but ripley is is a freak and obviously a murderous freak and so he's just it's such a it's such a almost like perfect movie and he's so captivating throughout that it would be impossible for me to not put the movie on the list yeah to me it's his fullest transformation because as you were just talking about he does have an overconfidence and there is certainly an overconfidence to aspects of that character. But it does hinge on an insecurity that you can't really find anywhere else in Matt Damon. That is that's not an insecure man and more credit to him. But it's really the only thing that that performance has in common with any of his other performances is that it's an intelligent character. And Matt Damon is very smart and projects being very smart in almost any of his other performances is that it's an intelligent character. And Matt

Damon is very smart and projects being very smart in almost all of his movies. But otherwise, it's just like someone else took the stage. And I think it's pretty impressive. He's incredible. No Ripley love for you? It's just not on my top. I mean, I love that movie, but it just didn't make top five. Should we go to number two? Sure. What's your number two? Well, as I said, Talented Miss Ripley is number one, so Good Will Hunting will be number two.

My number two as well. Didn't make my list. You ever think about getting remarried? My wife's dead. Hence the word remarried. She's dead. Yeah. Well, I think that's a super philosophy, Sean.

I mean, that way you could actually go through the rest of your life without ever really knowing anybody what the well I'm trying to be interesting I know yeah see I I went in the other direction I was like I'm not going to be interested I have a I have a reason for that though okay but you you should see you you're doing good now so say say what you were going to say yeah I. I mean, this is the quintessential Matt Damon performance. I was trying to be interesting by not putting it number one. And I think there's probably, it will be the performance for all time.

And it obviously introduces him into the consciousness. It is, there's the intelligence. There is the total prick-headed, you know, dick-headedness. There is the emotional release at the end it's definitely someone who is hiding a lot there is there is duplicity in it and then finally at the end you get like the big cathartic release um looks quite handsome which i really think matt damon's handsomeness has been underrated for the past 30 years and I and it all and it just sets the rest of the career and also every performance you watch after Good Will Hunting you're comparing to Good Will Hunting and

to who you think Matt Damon is and the type of roles you expect him to take and the type of roles you don't expect him to take the fact that he's even been able to transcend this the fact that he's able to have like a useful career after this because it's such an iconic role that people probably still there's a huge sw role that people probably still, there's a huge swath of people probably think his name is Will. It's still, you know, like is a testament to his abilities. Yeah, and I think he

even though The Martian is a great film and The Bourne movies are probably his biggest hits, I think he works best as a counterpart. Like, I think in The Departed, having someone like Leo and to a lesser extent, Vera Farmiga, even in movies like Dogma, in Ripley with Jude Law,

and in this movie with Robin Williams. And I feel like that's a very sliding doors moment if it's not Robin Williams and there's like a lot of casting what-ifs around who that part could have been and who was interested in playing it over the years. You know, I love picking out which scene i would choose as the most emblematic of the performance when we do these top five and would it be in those scenes would you have picked damon in the scene in the goodwill hunting yeah like when you're thinking about emblematic goodwill

hunting scenes are they because of damon or are they because of mini driver robin williams or ben affleck it's got to be both i I think the great stars allow other people to succeed while they're in reserve. The scene that I picked is the perfect for each other scene where Will and Sean are talking in his office. And he's like, I went on a date last night. And he's like, you need to see her again? And they kind of go back and forth about that. And you can sense that it's really more of a Robin Williams scene. It's really more, not because it's some big, loud, noisy mon monologue but because he is getting under his skin he's interrogating him he's

figuring out who he is and it's how we learn who sean is by letting him get underneath will skin and that's like the sign of a great movie star actor is somebody who knows how to punch and then be punched you know and he gets punched a lot in Good Will Hunting. And that's part of what makes it so good. I love it. I'm not ashamed to be basic about loving Good Will Hunting. It's just a great movie. It's just a really great movie. And it doesn't really work without him. Do you guys think that you would appreciate it as much? We would admire it as much if he hadn't written it or we didn't know that he was sort of like the engine behind the movie just as a pure performance you know the reason why he's a movie star is because of the origin story you know what I mean like I think that there were a lot of guys from that time period who kind of look like him kind of made some similar movies and he just had the he just

had the story man and he knew exactly how hard to sell it. I don't mean this in any way as a critique. I just mean that's one of the four or five indelible Hollywood myths you've ever heard is these guys just in their stupid Hollywood apartment with this script, workshopping it, and Rob Reiner not doing it. And this whole making of that movie is so, so iconic. He can't be Matt Damon without Ben Affleck. And I think he also, this movie doesn't work with Affleck as Chucky as well. As you said, it's two people together within the context of the movie

and also in the origin story. Yeah. Who do you think has had a better career? Affleck or Damon? Damon. Yeah. I mean, movies-wise, if you want to bring in

directing and producing and all that stuff. Just career full stop. I mean, it's hard to say anything other than Matt Damon at this particular moment. Matt Damon's batting

average is way higher. He does not make the turkeys that Affleck really does. Yeah, though, I haven't gotten in my We Bought a Zoo joke yet, but like...

Here's the thing. We Bought a Zoo! I think that, like, We Bought a Zoo joke yet, but like... Here's the thing. We bought a zoo! I think that like We Bought a Zoo and Promised Land, those movies have like a higher floor than the utter, like the shittiest Affleck movies, though. That's true. I would lob Elysium your way or... Monuments Men?

Not his fault? Not his fault, yeah. It's not your fault. I mean, the Brothers Grimm's grim you know what do you guys think of his performance in Eurotrip as the punk rock singer Donnie he's just such good cameos man yeah his cameos rule maybe that's what ultimately puts him over Affleck Affleck has a best picture winner under his belt yeah fairly notable so your number one was the talented Mr. Ripley yes you said what you feel you need to say about that. Good Will Hunting was two and Ripley's one.

Good Will Hunting is two and Talon is, yeah, and Ripley's number one. I think so. I just, in terms of, it's the outlier

on the list and I think it's the outlier in his entire career. I think there's also something, rewatching it, I was struck by, again, it's one of those

who else could play it, but his decision to not immediately show the hands and show his hand and the way he descends over the course of the movie. And also there's an argument that the talented Mr. Ripley character, not even an argument, probably like definitely unstable. So there are some mental issues. If you were making this movie in 2019, you would have to diagram the mental health very differently.

I know they're remaking. they're turning it into a series. I'm curious to see how they do it. But Damon clearly sees him as someone who is just kind of making impulse decisions and who is swayed by the power of other people. And it just kind of tumbles in from each other. And the character discovers his power as he goes along. And I think that's so fascinating. And that's the hardest thing to do is to pace the performance across two and a half, almost two and a half hours. Really long movie. A lot of fucked up things happen in that movie, by the way.

That last hour, yikes. Really, really, really tough. It's quite intense and severe also features uh just truly hilarious philip seymour hoffman performance amazing philip seymour hoffman intro we're we're far afield here but when he pulls the the sports car right into the cafe oh my god it's just good stuff don't you just want to fuck every woman once that's i believe that's his signature line um Chris, number two? Rounders.

I hesitate for like two seconds. I'll re-raise. And he makes a move toward his checks and he looks at me. And then he looks at his cards and he looks at me again. And he mucked it. I took it down. Did you have it? I'm sorry, John.

I don't remember. Yeah, this is my number one. Yeah, so this to me is like the kind of the same argument about Good Will Hunting I would make about Rounders, which is like there is no earthly reason that he shouldn't get fucking rolled in every scene he is in. He's in either Edward Norton, John Turturro, Martin Landau, you know, Gretchen Maul,

Gretchen Maul, Fonka Jansen, all the heavy hitters. But he is in, he is in every shot, almost, I think, of this movie,

and he is the voice of the movie, sometimes to a point where you're like, wow, this is just mostly a Matt Damon podcast, like when you're watching it.

The thing that I always have loved about rounders, aside from the fact that it's just like one of the most watchable movies, it's about something I'm very interested in. All that stuff is you can see while Damon's in this movie, how much fucking fun he has in movies. Like he's in, he's playing scenes with,

with Norton where he can tell there is almost like a light in his eyes where he's like, I can't believe I get to be in a scene like this. This is awesome. And I know that that probably shouldn't go in his pro column, but I do identify with it. I identify with his joy at making a certain kind of movie. And I think that that really comes across here.

But more than that, you've watched this movie the first hundred times and you're just like, oh, Malkovich, the fucking Oreos, this is amazing. And then like the hundred first time you're like, dude, Damon's actually incredible in this scene. Damon's incredible

in that scene. Damon's incredible in that scene. And you realize that like all this flash going off, but one of the reasons why you keep going back is because of Mike McD.

Yes. I think that the movie gets a lot of credit for kickstarting the poker boom in addition to the 2001 World Series, maybe 2003 World Series of poker. And I think that that's fair. But I think the reason that it kickstarted the poker boom is because Matt Damon is this is his rare actual everyman performance. It is his it is as close to Jimmy Stewart as he. Where you're like, I could be a law student. I'm kind of broke. My girlfriend

kind of hates me. I have a dirtbag friend. I have the professor that I look up to who gives me wisdom, who maybe I have to borrow money from. There is a lot of relatability in the Mike McD character and also a lot of aspiration. You know, sitting down with Johnny Chan and taking a hand down from the best

player in the world is something that people daydream about. When I say people, I mean me. He's the Chucky character in this movie. He's the guy who's like, you got a fucking sign hanging on your back and Norton is Will. Norton is the guy who's throwing it all away. And it kind of works for Damon to be that. It's true. So Edward Norton recently appeared on Brian Koppelman's podcast, The Moment. And he told the story of how he got involved in this movie. And he almost didn't do it. He tells this long-winded story about how Warner Brothers really wanted him to do Runaway Jury, the John Grisham adaptation.

Yeah, John Cusack did that, right? John Cusack did it. He signed on because Joel Schumacher signed on, but then Joel Schumacher's Batman movie bombed. So Joel Schumacher was like, I can't just keep doing Batman, Grisham, Batman, Grisham, because he had done The Client earlier. So Joel Schumacher pulls out, and Edward Norton has signed a pay-to-play deal to perform in The Runaway Jury. And he was like, I wasn't really that into it.

My agent was really trying to talk me into it. And I kept looking for a project to get me out of it. And that sort of relationship slash competition that you mentioned earlier with Damon and Norton having both going up for a different John Grisham movie, The Rainmaker, and not getting it is part of what drew him to Rounders. He wanted to be in a movie like this

with a guy like that making a movie like this. And it goes back to that punch-counterpunch thing that Damon does so well. Like, he can really hang and even even he can overwhelm everybody in this movie i think except for for malkovich malkovich is is playing a different instrument he's playing he's playing the tuba everybody else is playing the violin and he's playing the tuba and it's it works it's a beautiful sounding tuba but uh damon just he he's just in the pocket the whole time. There's never a false note from him in the movie.

There's no false notes in Rounders full stop, just so you know. Just need to make it clear to you. Why are you looking at me as you're saying that? I need to affirm my love for that movie. We're all aware. This is a safe space. But it is in some ways more movie star making

than a movie like Good Will Hunting which felt like a confluence of events there was like a whole like a history behind it and Rounders was a slow burn

a lot of people discovered it over a long period of time and it affirms like how someone like Damon gets stuck in your consciousness so that's my number one

Chris your number one was The Departed we've shared all of our top fives. My number two is Good Will Hunting. Okay. Just like Amanda. There's so many more things that he's done. Mm-hmm.

He doesn't have that, like, I don't know, that snooty, I wouldn't show up for this kind of attitude about anything. Like, he is hilarious in Thor Ragnarok. Mm-hmm. He makes a cameo in Deadpool 2. He makes a cameo in Deadpool 2. He makes a cameo in Unsane. He makes a legendary cameo, I would say, in Interstellar. Legendary.

Which I think is really good. To go, you don't know he's in it, he pops out of that pod, and then he's an asshole. It's kind of like a real shock in that movie when you get that far into it, and you're like, is Matt Damon going to find God out here?

Like, what is going to happen? And he's a prick. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. One of the supporting performances I had a hard time not adding, which I think is very good in a movie that is not necessarily great,

is Syriana. So George Clooney won the Oscar for Syriana, but you could make the case that it was Damon who should have won for this because it's sort of him doing the departed figure. Do you know who his wife is in that movie? Who is it? Amanda Peete.

Is it really? My wife, Amanda Peete. My wife, Amanda Peete. I have seen Syriana. All I seem to remember now is George Clooney's wearing a fat suit in it. Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah.

I think he gained the weight because he throws back out because of it. Not that I'm like George Clooney, you know. He's a true artist. And Matt Damon is not. What are some other ones that were hard for you to leave off the list? Ocean's 12,

which just has a special place in my heart. What about Ocean's 13? What about the nose place? When he wears the nose, you know. The Brody. Come on.

I wouldn't say it's my favorite. I just think Ocean's Twelve is really good. And Bill and Matt Damon were talking about how no one liked it at the time and it's misunderstood and people are angry. And I was like, not by me. I understood. Whatever. I had The Informant on the shortlist, which as soon as you were talking about the voiceover, I mean, this is the vocal performance.

The narration by Matt Damon in that movie is fascinating. He really should do podcasts. Margaret, very upsetting. We'll never forget it. Saving Private Ryan. I didn't list this, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a short list.

Again, cocky asshole. Yeah. 30 Rock. Oh, yeah. Just a great. It's a pilot. Yeah. Carol, I think think and he dates

Tina Fey for like four episodes I have I'm fucking Mac Damon on the list I have the Oscar speech on the list

just gonna go ahead and put the Bill Simmons podcast parts one and two on the list I'm not getting paid to say that just a really delightful podcast

and he just starts talking about Boston sports with we you know and there's no fucking guys. Shameful.

I know, but this podcast is canceled. Actually, the stereotype of that. It's great in terms of every man performance. You can't really get

better than that. I would say those, but I left off like 15. There are a bunch more. Anything else you want to spotlight school ties? Yeah, he's great in school ties.

Yeah, he apparently evil prick. Yeah. Yeah. He's apparently in the stands at Fenway in Field of Dreams. In that shot. I did not know that until doing research on this. And we wouldn't be the same without him. I mean we don't know. You know what I mean?

Butterfly effect. And I think that's it. I think that that's pretty much it. I just wanted to shout out 13 for the nose. Okay. And the Ellen Barkin stuff. Should I make a bid to defend downsizing?

I honestly thought you were going to put it on your list. And I'm impressed by your restraint. I mean, I did put dogma on my list like a fucking asshole. But that was a good look. Thanks. I like that. I appreciate you. You've always had my back with the Kevin Smith takes.

You guys were of an age at a time. It's not him having your back. You're a product of your generation. One time, me and my girlfriend in my freshman year of college. Oh, boy. Ever at the airport? No, I visited her at her college. And we went and saw Mallrats twice.

I heard this story. You've told this story on like nine podcasts. Have I? Yeah. Yeah. And in your personal life as well. Man, am I getting old? Am I just forgetting?

no it's just Kevin Smith is really important he's just an important guy downsizing is good that's my that's my take I think people were like it's time for us to cancel this movie

and that was wrong I think they're not everything about it works I don't think that was the problem I think nobody saw it no well that was that was a problem but people took a huge issue

with the Hong Chao performance oh yeah except Hong Chao except Hong Chao was like I was doing Except Hong Chao was like, I was doing this on purpose. This was the character I created. Nevertheless, Matt Damon, as you said, has worked with so many great filmmakers over the years. And this was his chance to get a shot with Alexander Payne,

who I think up until Downsizing, you could look at every movie he made and be like, somewhere maybe just barely south of a masterpiece. Like, he had a pretty unblemished record. And this is the first movie he made where people were like, actually, no. And part of that was the marketing. Part of it was it might have been too high concept. It might have been too cute.

I have another explanation. You know what I'm going to say. Kristen Wiig in that movie. And he's not, again, and I think part of it is the marketing. I think he even said on the podcast recently that people went in thinking it was going to be like a Saturday Night Live. Honey, I shrunk the kids. I shrunk the kids in part because that's what you associated with Kristen Wiig. And instead, she's supposed to be part of like a high concept dramedy.

No, thank you. Yeah, but I just I did think that it was in keeping with a lot of what Payne does, which is this like searching existential drama with great jokes. And that's what all of his movies are. And the movie is making an honest effort to talk about like what happens when you get into your 40s? What is it like to be a lower middle class person in America? What is climate change

really going to do to our society? Like most studio comedies are not even interested in one half of one thing. That movie is interested in like five things. It speaks to like the kind, what his taste is. Because obviously even the bad movies

that he's made, like we bought a zoo or promise land, which he's very instrumental. Like he co-wrote promise land. And I, you know, obviously it was like, uh,

you know, he does, we bought a zoo and, and it's like, you can see the idea that they thought was good there somewhere where they were like, this is going to be like really heartfelt family drama. And it just gets fucked up somewhere along the way.

And like, I was weirdly rewatched like a bunch of Promised Land and I was just like, I can't believe this movie got made. Like this Gus Van Sant movie, right? I think he directed it, right? It's Gus Van Sant from a script

that Krasinski and Damon wrote. Krasinski and Damon did about like fracking and small farms in Iowa, I think. And it's just like, I can't believe Jason Bourne was like, it's important I make this movie. Yeah. And made it in a way where she was like,

this should be a big hit, right? It's also like a weird puzzle box con man movie too. It also, I think, suffered a similar fate to Downsizing where people thought it was going to be one thing. They thought it was actually going to be like a Bruce Springsteen song come to life. And it's not quite that.

It's a little bit more bait and switch than that. And that's maybe the weight that he has to carry as a as an everyman quote unquote movie star is people think that every movie is going to be the same, which might be why he keeps making like Elysium and The Great Wall just to keep people on their toes. Yeah. The other thing that promised land and downsizing, as you described, have in common is that they're both just kind of a downer. I don't really think people, I mean, people will accept really screwed up circumstances for Matt Damon, as I have evidenced by my list

that features The Departed and Talented Mr. Ripley. But just like a bummer, a depressing movie, Matt Damon down and out without any sort of comeback. I think that's why the Jason Bourne movie didn't do as well

because it was just ultimately like pretty kind of a downer movie. I mean, it didn't have any of like the romance that the first three did. Yeah,

he has actually been since The Martian, he's, it's been a little bit challenging. It's The Great Wall, Downsizing, and Suburbicon, which we have not mentioned,

which is just a I think that was purposeful. hugely unsuccessful movie. Wasn't that also Clooney? Clooney directed it. And, you know, Ford versus Ferrari is the first starring role that he's had since then. And I think it, what did you make of it? Did you, did it scratch some of your Matt Damon pleasure centers or was it a little bit too abstract in terms of what he's asked to do in the movie? He, as you noted, he is not the shining star in the movie. It's Christian Bale, but he is

kind of actively leaning into not being the shining star. I thought he was very charming. I thought when Christian Bale and Matt Damon were on screen together. Dynamite. Dynamite. As you noted, he does play well off someone. And also sometimes you just want to watch two movie stars hang out. The movie doesn't do as much of that. But it is it's an old fashioned movie star, beautifully made race car movie. I mean, I'm fascinated to talk to you about cars and whether you like cars that much. And, you know, I'm curious how many people in America care about cars. I don't know.

It's funny that you mentioned that when I spoke to James Mangold. He was like, I don't care about cars? I don't know. It's funny that you mentioned that when I spoke to James Mangold. He was like, I don't care about cars. And it's fascinating to spend two years of your life making a movie like this and not really caring about cars because it is under the hood. Yeah, but he might not care about cars, but it definitely,

you can tell that he cares about filming the cars and the athleticism and the technical ability that comes into that. And it's beautifully done. All of those shots are great, but I'm like,

oh, okay, this is a lot of, it kind of felt like the opening of somewhere, you know, when he's just driving the car around for forever. I was like, oh,

great. I love this movie. Le Mans is a very long, long race. I have a question about Ford Ferrari, but no, no spoilers. No spoilers.

How swole Iacocca? Amazing. Tremendous. Yeah. It's a deeply revisionist portrait of a beautiful auto executive. But he's tremendous.

Was he beautiful? No, John Bernthal is a beautiful Iacocca man. Lee Iacocca, you can look at the cover of his memoir. It was not a beautiful man.

And I appreciate the poetic license that Mangold took with that. Yeah, there's a lot of candy in the movie. It's very fun to look at. You know who to root for. You know what's going to happen for the most part. But that's OK. It's very comforting and still exciting. I loved it. I think it's really fun. It is definitely an evaluation of a lost masculinity and also an evaluation of the dying embers

of the movie business. There's no question to me that it's an operating metaphor around that. Chris, there's two 2019 Matt Damon movies. Which of these two

do you think will be best remembered? The first is obviously Ford vs. Ferrari. The other is Jay and Silent Bob Reboot. I mean, I know which one

you and I are going to go see opening night. Trench Coats. Great. You know? Snoochie boochies. Great stuff. Please get me out of this narrative.

We'd love to see it. Snick, snick. Let's go. I'm really unhappy. Thank you so much, Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan. This has been a Top 5 Matt Damon Performances conversation. Now let's go to my interview with the writer-director James Mangold. Delighted to be joined by James Mangold. James, thanks for having me in your office.

No problem, Sean. Welcome. So I'm looking around and I see all of these beautiful physical objects and I'm reminded a bit of the movie that you've made, which is very much a physical objects kind of film. And I was thinking about your career the movie that you've made, which is very much a physical objects kind of film. And I was thinking about your career and where you've come from and the films that you've made recently. A lot of filmmakers are moving towards IP. You were a little bit ahead of the game on that. And you were doing something now that is very classical. I'm wondering when this movie came to you and what your reaction was when you saw the script.

Well, when I first saw the script, it was in a different form being made by a different filmmaker. And it was something I just started tracking in a way, hoping that it wouldn't happen in the configuration it was in and that I'd get a chance at it. And that was back in 2011, I believe. And I just found the story really interesting. I'm not a big motorsports guy. That's not how I connected with it.

But I think that the characters in Carroll Shelby, Ken Miles, Henry Ford II, Enzo Ferrari, Lee Iacocca, on and on. These are all really interesting characters at a moment when the world was still flexible to passion. I mean, I feel, I fear one of the part of the romance of that period is that it's kind of the last gasp of Maverick's innovation, a kind of ability to take risk that has been boiled away in kind of modern corporate culture. I mean, obviously risks and good things still happen, but you have to push your way through this kind of labyrinth, this gauntlet of market testing and kind of business science that now exists around the idea of what sells and what people want. And there was a time, certainly when this country, the United States became a great innovator, um, where, um, and, and, uh, so many of the great inventions of our modern era

come from this country. And so much of that innovation was, was a kind of maverick entrepreneurial spirit. Um, in many ways I view this same time, kind of the fifties to the sixties as kind of the death of that, that pure spirit. And in the same way that the Western is a, is a kind of, um, mythical universe about the death of the kind of open range and pioneer spirit, if you will, that there's these different historical periods that capture these things. Anyway, for me, it was that. The idea of making an adult-themed grown-up movie with dynamic action, with heroes that were flawed, interesting um didn't speak in two

couplets and then you're on to the next 12 minutes of action that there was a kind of that i'd be asking the audience to live through both a drama and an action film uh and that that's what turned me on what i saw in it the script was huge and epic and went in places that we i ended up trying not to go trying to focus more on shelby and miles particularly but also the reason the script didn't get made i mean the 2011 you're talking about and it certainly was getting developed earlier than that that's just the first time i saw it um the reason the movie didn't get made is is what you were discussing which is that it wasn't an ip project yet it was was very expensive. And so you have the

challenge of, uh, and the fear, the challenge of convincing a studio to make a movie with an, a story idea that is essentially a kind of unproven story arena. And that all ties back around into the world of the movie. And another way I connect to it, which is in so many ways, the characters in the film are trying to convince Ford or other kinds of corporate committees to, to take a risk on something that they don't understand completely to just have faith in people as opposed to having the whole pathway mapped out. And I think that's such an important part, certainly for me, in my experience, coming up as an independent filmmaker and entering the world of studio movies. A big thing for me has been recognizing how important it is to establish a level of trust or faith in the corporate entities you're working with, or else you can't innovate at all or do

anything interesting. Did you self-identify immediately with that concept? There's a very important scene in the film between Henry Ford II and Carroll Shelby that concept there's a very important scene in the film between henry ford ii and and carol shelby where there's a kind of convincing that goes on did that was that reflective yes i really i worked on writing that scene and i really um i mean we did a lot of work writing on the movie but the that scene is huge for me the red folder scene yes and um it was my idea to do this thing with a red folder to try and almost make visual what what Shelby was trying to explain. And what I love about that scene is it is about just human energy, meaning that it's a man walking in. For those of you who haven't seen the movie, I apologize, but it's a I'll try and set it up without spoiling the movie it's it's a scene in which carol shelby matt damon's character is called in henry ford ii's office essentially to be fired because they've lost a major race and um and that was exactly what ford hired that is exactly what ford didn't hire shelby to do which was embarrass the company and shelby ends up turning the moment through a singular piece of kind of verbal Tai Chi into a kind of moment where he has Ford on the defensive and has secured his job for the next year as

opposed to fighting for his job ends up in a more secure job place than he ever has by essentially turning the tables on Henry Ford the second and kind of illustrating for him how their failure is in many ways a symptom of the failure of Ford to adapt or be flexible to reality or to believe in someone, to believe in a person as opposed to what I think business had rallied around at that point, which is the supremacy of the idea, the well-tested idea. So you mentioned that, you know, you needed to scale back this story. And also it seems like you had to convince the powers that be to, to make this film. So what happens after the opportunity arises to actually make the movie? What's the first thing that you

do? Right. I get together with, um, jazz and John Henry Butterworth and we get to work on trying to shape the movie more. Um, one of the things I'm after is a reducing some of the scale of the movie and be the movie had a lot of races in it. And, and I think there's kind of a cliche of sports movies where you kind of have these like 30 second montages of, of a game or a race.

And then you go to the next one and you have a little music and you cut to the scoreboard and the game's over and you're kind of watching this team or or athlete advance or move through a series of quote historic races and one of the things i really wanted to do and part of this comes from my ambivalence about motorsports is that i wanted to really try to put the audience in a race, a sustained race, where you felt the ups, downs, strategy, tactics, fears in the race. And that to me meant doing less races, but longer ones. And culminating, as this film does, with an almost 50-minute race, in which, um,

I would say to the crew very often, I think we're doing saving private Ryan in reverse, you know, that there's, it's like, like that movie movie opens with this masterful tour de force action piece of the storming of Normandy. And I think that for me,

the idea was we're going to build to this race and Lamont, and I wanted it to be not just kind of a series of flashy vignettes of the race, but that you feel what Le Mans is, which is essentially a 24-hour race, which is something I still think audiences have a hard time conceiving what that means. That means the car is running and racing from 4 p.m. on one day till 4 p.m. the next day. It's driving the distance from Los Angeles to New York in 24 hours at high speed with cars exploding, revving, trying to knock you off the road on highly twisting, turning country roads. And as Matt's character carol shelby says in the movie that means night that means 12 hours of the race is in blackness um and that um driving continuously and you're talking about it at speeds well in excess of 150 miles an hour um approaching two or more and and that to me seems like a battle in and of itself, which you could only understand if you somehow live in it.

And, and I kind of analyzed my own ambivalence because I do like sports. Why do I not care so much about motor sports? And I felt like most of it is because I feel like you're just watching these specs go in circles and on TV relationship to it. Yes. And, and I thought about it and I thought about how, you know, most often, so you have these panning shots of cars going around and then an aerial shot, and then a cut to some quick ban and then another aerial shot.

And, and there's some little video Chiron telling you who's in the lead and who's in second. And the color analysts are kind of explaining why yellow cars in the pits or blue cars pulling ahead, but you don't know. And they don't know because no one knows what's going on inside the car. And so I felt like the whole secret to making a race in an elongated fashion,

really exciting would be to do the same thing we, they did in, you know, 1940s world war two cockpit movies, or certainly even in star Wars movies or anything else, which is to put you behind the wheel behind um uh the windshield and feel what it's like to race this car and um and understand every tactic every fear every mechanical malfunction or problem from the point of view of the driver or

the other heroes that are in the pits but but at ground level, not where an audience sits. And that became kind of the other focus in writing was, you know, even though you're writing with images and sounds and not something that you can necessarily solve with dialogue per se, but we were writing what we thought could be an act and it is an accurate depiction of the events that transpired in that 1966 race. I'm so interested in that concept of being ambivalent about motorsports. So what's most appealing aside from the themes? Is it the physical challenge of trying to achieve a movie like this? Well, I'm a practitioner.

I like to think of myself as a practitioner of cinema. So to have a world with its own unique rules, like every movie to me is science fiction. You know, sometimes, you know, when I make movies that are more like certainly an X-Men picture or I consider doing movies in other, quote, universes or people are always, we'll use this term when they do meetings, like, or they'll talk to my agent or someone and they go, they're looking for someone who knows how to build a world. Right. And for whatever reason, I'm now on that list of, quote, world builders, right? But every fucking time you make a movie, you build a world. If you're making a movie about Johnny Cash and Memphis in the 1950s, you have to build the world.

The audience knows nothing. They know nothing of what the country music scene was at that moment. They know nothing about who was in Memphis and what did it mean and what did Elvis look like when he was only 24 and when did he hit and when did Johnny hit and what does he come from and where did he grow up? And the mythology of those characters is just as requiring of world building as making a movie in some kind of IP universe. And even more so because too many people think it doesn't. So they skip over what I call setting the table or allowing an audience to come into a story with a sense of time and place. And most interestingly, what makes it different than now? Why are the rules different in life then? Obviously there's obvious ones, like when you're making period films that

women are subjugated, that people of color are subjugated, that even among white people, working class people are very separated. That the cell phone, the ability to call for help, the ways our lives have changed with technology don't exist. And in a way, you need to almost make that clear to an audience over again, because we've come become so used to that. So when you get to it, when you're asking what turned me on, if not motor sports, well, I don't think the movie is about motor sports. I think any more than I think Rocky is about boxing. Like, and I don't think walk the line is about country music, meaning that, that those are worlds and they are backdrops, but that Walk the Line is about falling in love with a woman who you can't be with except on stage and about this unique contradiction of what do you do when the person you love most in the world you can only be with

at 30-minute intervals in front of 10,000 people. And obviously the movie is about a world of other things about kind of family pain and the loss of a brother. And, but all those things are much more what that movie is about, for instance, then quote country music, which isn't even a topic. It's just a,

a bin at tower records. It's not a, it's not a theme. It's just a place. And similarly, motor sports is just a backdrop, just like a Western is a backdrop. It's why this is the worldview, by the way, that has me moving from one genre to another without thinking about it very much. Because I think we spend so much time separating our art and our people, frankly, just kind of playing identity politics, even with our art in which,

well, why is a Western Western isn't really all that different than noir picture. If you think about the mechanics and neither of them are that different than samurai pictures. So why are they all in separate bins? Why are they, well, maybe it makes sense for audiences in the rental, in the DVD rental store or wherever, or online. But from my point of view, the mechanics, like as if I were a car mechanic, what I have to do, how I have to wire the engine, how I have to make this car run is no different for a Western or a movie like

Logan or, or a noir picture. And, and that dramatic film like girl interrupted, it has more in common with Ford versus Ferrari that for me, because I'm as interested in the kind of intimate moments between these characters as I am in the action. So it's never as simple as that.

But what I did as an opportunist and an artist is I did look at the world of racing and go, those cars are beautiful. The speed is high. The stakes are life and death. These are good places to make a story about friendship, about holding together, about love, about funky characters trying to survive in this conforming of most conforming of all worlds with the added storytelling octane, if you will, of the racing. And, and that cause too often, again, we segregate our dramatic films from our action pictures in which our action picture pictures become movies aimed for 12 or 13 year olds, hopefully with a few grownup jokes that make us feel attended to. And then the dramatic films become $11 million movies that play for two weeks and go to streaming. And, um, and that the idea, and I'm not putting myself in the same

league, but the idea of what Friedkin and David Lean and Michael Curtiz and I could go on and on. There were grown-up movies with scope and action that also were adult pictures. And where are those? And we can't say, and that's nothing against it, but Marvel movies are many things, but they're not Lawrence of Arabia. So the reality is, and so much of the consternation and finger pointing that's come up in the recent media blogosphere about those things with the Marty and the Francis and all that stuff is really just starving people lashing out at each other. Meaning there's not enough movies getting made. So the people who get to make movies start fighting with each other. But the reality is that what it's really about in the same way, our politics in our country, we have so many people

fighting with each other, but what really has happened is all the resources have been taken by a few and have been left for, for the masses to fight over what's left. And that very similarly in movies, there's just fewer and fewer motion pictures being made. So people are getting pissed off and they're pointing at each other in frustration. And that to me is really interesting. And all of it makes me think about how can I make an original movie and the assets of racing and the dynamism, and I know how that will attract an audience and help with marketing allows me in the same way, no different than I thought of Logan as a kind of

Trojan horse, to be able to do a kind of dramatic picture that you don't get to make anymore with the kind of shield if you will marketing shield of a known character in this case it's a known um a known template which is the sports film and racing which is in a sense my limited ip on this one which is that i have i still have a chance of attracting a core audience of race fans. That's a really interesting concept. I wonder if, have you gotten significantly more conscientious about that with making movies than say when you were making Heavy or Girl Interrupted that you knew that this had to be for an audience and that to make a movie like this is more of a privilege now and that when you're designing the movie, there has to be an aspect that is going to

excite people. It's an interesting question. I have to tell you, even when I made heavy, I was aware that I had to, I was aware what was happening. I mean, you have two things you balance. I think when you're trying to figure out what movie you're making, one is just what you're, you know, I wrote heavy, I wrote cop land. These are just what came out of me. So they are functions of girl interrupted to their functions of where you're interested in going at that moment in your life. But if you talk about the moment I made my first feature back in the middle 90s, I was really acutely aware that I was out of step with what was breaking. and kind of the kind of postmodern, brilliantly crafted, fourth wall breaking kind of very cool, cinema cool, kind of elevated B cinema. And I realized, however much I admired those movies, and I love them still, it wasn't my gig.

It just wasn't what I wanted to do. And I didn't think more importantly, if I tried to do it, I'd be bad at it. Meaning I didn't feel like it came naturally to me because what drives me to make movies is the quest to move you or, or a quest to kind of put intimacy on the screen, which is almost the opposite of that whole cinema movement. It's about being clever. It's in a way about attracting attention to the director and the kind of movie quotations.

It's very referential to movies as opposed to the characters themselves. The characters are kind of archetypes. Again, all of it's awesome, but not my deal. And that the, you you know growing up like i loved elvis costello and i love bruce springsteen but they're completely different the earnest and the arch yes and but also elvis is very aware he's writing lyrics that are very showy bruce is the opposite he's writing lyrics that are almost to the point of, you know, I met a little girl and I

settled down at a little house out on the edge of town. We got married and swore we'd never part, but little by little, we drifted from each other's hearts. The word little is six times in his first stanza. He is not trying to be flowery. He's using preschool words to write. And I'm much more attracted to the economy and emotion of, if you would a springsteen aesthetic in movies which was not in favor in the 90s which gets to when i made heavy it was an effort to make like my own version of the last picture show um bogdanovich's great movie and the about growing up in upstate new york in my case, his was about Texas. But, and I was very aware then that I was running 100% against the grain

of what was happening. My movie was, if anything, overly earnest, very slow paced, like almost literally drawing its inspiration from Ozu movies. And, but I was also aware that running 180 degrees against the grain might be commercially viable, at least on the smallest scale that success is measured for independent films,

that I saw much more detritus on the edge of the road for the filmmakers who were trying to emulate quentin and failing and kind of making these kind of b-level quentin movies that kind of everyone's smoking clove cigarettes and driving a dead dodge daytona down a highway and there's cool music playing and they're smoking but it's not the same they don't have his gift for that. And so in that way, Heavy found a place in the world somehow. And Copland was tougher for me because it again was when it was now with Miramax, think was that i would make a quentin like movie and i didn't um and wasn't interested in it meaning i was more interested in trying to make a movie by my heroes like sydney lamette or or martin scorsese or um and i will admit i mean

i was 30 when i made it it's like i was at an amazing amount of riches in the cast and um very larry little money to shoot the movie with but the but i was not interested in doing something like jazzy or kind of um that there was kind of a dirge or an ode a kind of western set in new jersey and um which again and very earnest and. And I think a little... And direct, no quotation marks in that movie either. No, it's not. I mean, it's not... People saw the Western influence,

but not in kind of homage shots. It was just in the architecture of the script. This is High Noon. He's all by himself. He's against the people. Yeah, absolutely. And he's outnumbered. And that was interesting

to me thematically but i was trying not to make it kind of archly framed and i didn't want to pull you out of the story and this is in a sense i mean i don't know how interesting this is to you or your audience but in a way i'm trying i'm hoping you see i'm good at what I do, or I'm hoping you're pleased with what I do, but I'm trying not to, when I direct a film, attract attention to myself. Meaning that I do think that there's become a modern idea about film direction that the best directors are the ones who point at themselves the most during their film. I mean, I think it's where the one-er has become an absolute like fucking obsession now. And there's some filmmakers who are great at shooting movies and one-ers, but like when I teach every young filmmaker wants to do every moment, every film in a never ending shot. And I'm like, and what is this thing you're showing off when you do this?

Because the scene is 10. What is so sad about a cut what what is um dw griffith did them like what is in fact cinema was invented when they began to cut the the the non-cut film was just an emulation of the theatrical experience the stage experience what so our eyes cut when our when our when our irises flick from one thing to another, our brains erase the swish pan. We live in cuts. But what is really driving everyone is they're trying to figure out how to brand themselves, how to get attention as a director, how to get noticed, and that any kind of overt athleticism with the camera becomes a way and a successful way in most cases, critics and everyone respond to, even though it's also a cheat, they're gluing shots together with CG technology, the showiness of it becomes its own reward.

I don't think that's, for me, what I love about movie directing. directing is trying to understand um story and trying to use the moving image to tell a story in blocks in carefully wrought sentences in um and also in the quest to find something unique with my actors that i couldn't have planned before in a never-ending storyboard or previs of wonders or anything that that that part of what the, what's going on on that set on that day emotionally with those actors, because I think that's the ultimate special effect in a way is, um, is, is those moments you find with actors. So it's interesting that you mentioned the, the wonder concept, because I think a lot of filmmakers use that in an effort to not just draw attention to themselves, but to indicate it's hard to make movies and look at how smart I am that I figured

this out. Yeah. And all that said, there's some great wonder movies. I mean, there's some, there's, and great directors at it when it first appeared like 10, 15 years ago. And this new generation started, there's a couple of filmmakers I'm thinking of in particular that I thought were doing flamboyantly brilliant stuff. But like most things that are huge events in art, there are a lot of imitators. And what I'm trying to always draw students' attention to is in the case of those filmmakers who do it so well, notice how well they're doing it. Notice how they've edited their movie in the camera, that they aren't starting on some boring shot of an alarm clock, and then a hand hits it, and then a slow pen to find the person rolling over. The scene's happening from the moment,

because they know they will not be able to cut the scene. So they're having to, as they block and stage edit in their minds, they need the most aggressive. There's no up, up cutting of this scene, but I do think, I don't know quite why, but I think you're very much on it. I think it's, but I don't think it's, I don't want to put people on the defensive, meaning I don't think it's bad to want people to see you in your art i just think sometimes in this age of branding where careers are made so quickly um you know i mean billy wilder made 16 movies before he made some like it hot um and the the reality is that that a lot of filmmakers now feel the need to become a, quote, genius or somebody and branded in their first movie or second movie. And the media are only too happy to go, the arrival, the successor to Spielberg, the new Hitchcock. And like someone's made one and a half movies and you're talking about replacing a guy who made 99 movies that changed cinema.

Are you fucking crazy? I'll admit I've been guilty of that. It's because we're desperate to have our version of it. Right. We're desperate to own it and to be the first to call it, which is online our own way of doing the one-er. You're trying to be there first so you can point back three years from now. You're right. Yeah.

But it's all ego. And I don't think there's anything in you. We all have ego. But I think the good thing is to try and – I'm always questioning whether I'm putting myself in front of the story. And because my parents are both painters. And my mom taught for a long time um at the school of visual arts in new york so did my dad and um and i remember her when i was a kid coming home being frustrated with um with uh students because they were already painting for their first gallery show and they

didn't want to learn anything meaning they were already out of high school but they were preparing to be famous which is like the k like the Kardashianization of our culture that, that, that no one really wants to get better at their craft because they can see all so many people who are shitty at their craft are millionaires already. So, so, but what I always try and relay to students is,

is, well, do you care about your medium or you just care about getting wealthy? Because we care about your medium. You know, if you care about furniture and you're a carpenter, then you don't build your first chair and then bring it to market in New York. And then the guy or woman buying chairs goes, do you have more of them? You go, no, this is my only chair. It's my first chair. Anyone normal would go, go back home and build more chairs. It's like, why are you here at

marketing? You know, it's like you've built one bloody chair and, and that now someone writes a screenplay and they're like, why is no one making my script? Well, may, maybe it's not good. B, maybe you need to write another one or C like earn it because, or are you really happy that shitty filmmakers and shitty screenplays and shitty music is churned out like a factory in our culture? And do you want to be part of that by expecting to make it the first time you shit on a piece of newspaper? And it's like the, so my point anyway, I can't remember where I was getting is that believing in the patients that people will recognize you and your work. And this gets to what my mom would tell her students is

that you don't have to put who you are in your art, who you are is naturally in your art. What stories you choose to tell, where you, in my case, put the camera, where you put the brush, what colors you're choosing, how you're painting. You don't have to intellectually brand yourself because you are spiritually branding yourself. Your work, my work is different than another filmmaker's work. Not because of the shit in my brain where I'm trying to brand or do, do with the man gold way, but that it's naturally just like the way I talk is different than someone else talking. So that if everyone eased up a little, I think, and I'm a big believer in this,

that your natural voice would come through as opposed to a pretense or an angle or a strategy on how to make it. And which is a wholly different and unnatural. And in my sense, in my own judgment, unorganic way of trying to be an artist it's interesting that you phrase it that way though because i see your films and this isn't true of every film but over the course of i guess what 25 years now you've got films that kind of arrive at the right

time for the genre or the moment there was it was the right time for a film about johnny cash done in that way it was the right time for logan it was it's it's, it was the right time for a film about Johnny Cash done in that way. It was the right time for Logan. It's, it's in many ways, the right time in the way that we're understanding Ford versus Ferrari, which is, this is an adult drama with movie stars, which we don't get enough of anymore. And it's easy for me to say to my parents or to my little sister, here's why this movie is cool. And here's why it's a little bit different from whatever else is at the movies. Is that not strategy for you? Is that just,'s why it's a little bit different from whatever else is at the movies. Is that not strategy for you?

Is that just, well, it's not strategy in the sense. I think it's more gut. Like, like I was telling you with heavy, I did, I couldn't do what they were doing.

So I did something else. I actually couldn't make, um, a Wolverine was as close as I could come to making a kind of IP movie in the mold of what they wanted. And what drove me was what most of the first half of that movie was the idea of kind of making a Tokyo Noir picture and trying to use the opportunity of the picture setting to allow me to make a kind of Japanese fever dream film. But the process was ultimately not satisfying because I wanted,

I mean, I love the movie and I'm happy with it, but it was different than what, when, when they turned to me again and Hugh came to me again to make another one. I, it's just about,

it's, it isn't about money anymore. It's about what you want to live through. And I was like, I'll do this, but not that again. It felt like you were fixing something. Well,

I was, I was trying to make it more than just on the Wolverine series. I was trying to, I just, I find, like, I find all the gear and the merchandising and And what I feel out of, out of the world of, of, of fantasy entertainment right now, more than anything in general is merchandising. So the, the,

to me, I'm like, story has to be King. The merchandising can follow George Lucas. Didn't make star Wars to make something to be merchandisable. It's even debatable whether he really knew how many films would come from that first film, no matter how much retroactive claims are made. And that the reality to me is that you should make the movie to be a single standalone

piece of art. And then in that case, I found Logan so fascinating when I was making Wolverine and I kept imagining the story. I would love what I found would love to tell what I found so fascinating was his immortality, his reluctance, his, which is why so many fans are like, why aren't you dressing him up in that bumblebee-colored outfit? First of all, he would look awful in it. But second of all, the idea to me, it ran counter to character, and character is king. They may have gotten away with it in comic because you didn't ask those questions, but I have to make it live in flesh and blood on the screen and the reality like in terms of uniform is why would a character who dislikes being a superhero who dislikes self-aggrandizement who hates the narcissism and self-love of other superheroes or super villains why would he dress up in a spandex outfit with his trademark blazoned across his chest it wouldn't make any fucking sense it's

just to please a fan it's a it's a it's a merchandising transaction instead of a true storytelling transaction and someone would argue well it's in the comic books they go well that was a merchandising transaction of the comic book because the character was happiest when he wasn't dressed like he was a fucking mouse keteer why would any guy with the character of wolverine put on a matching rockettes outfit with other and be like thunderbirds are go why would they do that that isn't him yeah and and everyone's like well they did it because they drew it and it's like well it's a lie or it's it doesn't work on screen for me. And someone else can make that movie where Logan, you know, to me, it's like, would Han Solo put on the kind of rebel fighter outfit? No, he's always going to be dressed as Han Solo, meaning there's characters who are rebellious and who don't want to be part of any club that will have them.

And that's part of who they are and the idea of making a movie like that the idea not so much quote killing logan but the idea also that came to me early in research i was doing of making the movie about what scared him personally the most, which was love. And, um, and in many ways, also something many people recognize, I think the way that movie makes them feel, but may not recognize architecturally, there is no real villain in the movie that the movie is built like a character piece in the sense that the real struggle in the movie is between a father,

Charles Xavier, a son, Logan, and a daughter, um, X 24, Laura and the drama, what drives the movie?

Yes, there's, there's some bad guys in pursuit and, but what the engine that drives that movie is a character piece engine in which it's about who loves who, who is taking ownership of who, who is giving's hurting who and that it's the transactions and the kind of quote plot movements have more in common with kramer versus kramer or or than they do with a kind of marvel plot because and and it's why the movie feels so different is that inherently it was built as a character piece more more than an action piece and and and that's i'm always looking for

those contradictions and i'm always looking and i'm always assuming that there's a a possible commercial benefit or market for something that's different as long as it's aware of the audience i mean i think i where filmmakers get in trouble going against the grain completely as i use this expression do you want to hit the audience in the head with a hammer no one's going to pay 14 plus popcorn and travel to get hit in the head with a hammer brutally meaning yes life sucks but they don't you know milo Forman, who was a teacher of mine, he had a great expression where he'd say, don't tell me two and two is four. I know two and two is four. Why would you spend three years, five years, eight years making a movie

that tells me two and two is four? Tell me two and two is five. The audience will, the very beginning of your movie, say two and two is five. And then the audience will go no it isn't and then the storyteller says yes it is and i will show you why meaning show the audience something new take them someplace new with the story that the same story and that's the other thing to get back to ford ferrari that attracted me to this so much is that again without giving away too much it everyone sees the posters and the campaigns for the movie i think they have assumptions about how the movie unwinds and i think the movie unwinds in a different way than many expect at least those who haven't researched the

actual historical events and that that was also really attractive to me because i you know the movie doesn't end when the race ends and the, the movie doesn't end when the race ends. And the reason the movie doesn't end when the race ends is because it is essentially a character story and not a race movie. And we're also programmed with these genre assumptions that we think if there's a race and then the race ends, the movie is supposed to fade out. And that that's so much a function of, again, the way we've been programmed, we're dying and complaining for entertainment that breaks the bounds of familiar structures. But then we're also sometimes ourselves as audience challenged when something does that at the same time. Let me ask you a question about another one of your teachers. You mentioned Milos.

When I saw the film IntelliRide, you talked a little bit about Alexander McKendrick. I walk into your office, big sweet smell of success poster on the wall. These are all Sandy's by the way. Those are his, these are all his behind me are about 18, 20 rules that Sandy wrote. These were in the, in his office, in his CalArts. Yeah. Okay. I won't read them out loud too. So it's not to spoil them personally, but they're, you're welcome to take a picture of them and, and, and, um, the, but they're amazing. And I, they live with me every day and sandy had an office sandy mckendrick at cal rc was my teacher and also i last two years i was

there i worked for him as his assistant with classes so i got to take all his classes over again running a at that time mimeograph machine and the early xerox machines um printing um printing out all his handouts which became the book the oh yeah these are these are in the book as well yeah they're in the book and the these are literally what was was in his office but the all this is from his book and his he had these great handouts that about dramatic structure film direction but sandy director of sweet smell success the man in the white suit lady killers uh um the maggie whiskey aka whiskey galore um did i say what am i missing i don't know i'm there's so many mandy um tight little island

oh that's whiskey galore the boy 10 feet tall terrific um kind of early version of empire of the sun um he's a great movie director um felled in his 50s and early 60s by um emphysema and lost a lung and became a teacher is that why he stopped making films well i think he would have he got into a point when the films weren't working okay he got um not many people know this but he was directing on the guns of navarone and was fired um fired about a week in to shooting the movie, I believe. And so all the designs, script, that whole movie was his. But Sandy was difficult and he was demanding. And I think he had a hard time.

It wasn't the first time he was fired. He was a very imperious character, very gentle at heart, but very demanding of his students as well. Kind of reminded me of the actor john hausman in the paper chase um the kind of very intimidating character and i think um intellectual british fellow yes and uh and had seen a lot of history and seen you know he had shot he was a documentarian who shot mussolini's hanging um was there. I mean, he had been through everything and, but I think his career had gotten more difficult. He was directing,

I think episodes of the defenders at that point in, in LA and, and the, as Disney was building Cal arts, they offered him to run the film school there. And he took that position. I think then later kind of stepped back from running the film school to being a great teacher, but he was an incredible teacher there. And he took that position. I think then later kind of stepped back from running the film school to being a great teacher,

but he was an incredible teacher there. And, um, uh, I would be nothing without him. I mean, I think that he, he took a,

uh, I arrived there at 17 years of age, hardcore super eight film geek, um, who had been making movies since 12. And I was very adept technically um i shot my movies i i edited my movies i i mixed recorded i would write scores for my movies um but um but the idea of what storytelling was um and trying to dive into that was something that

sandy really took me through and he also gave me another great that was something that Sandy really took me through. And he also gave me another great gift was two years in, he told me to join the theater school at Cal arts. And, um, as an actor, he said, you know, they give all these classes for directors and how to direct actors, but they don't, he goes, they're worthless because he felt they were worthless because the, no one's the acting and everyone's movies wasn't getting any better. And he felt like I was kind of a natural performer as a character. And I was an actor in high school doing lots of plays and puppet shows.

And I was a backyard magician. And I auditioned for the theater school at CalArts in the acting program, as well as kind of in the periphery of the film program. And Don Cheadle was in my acting studio of eight to ten students, among many other talented people. And I was in dozens of plays and movement training and voice training and scene um, uh, scene work and diction work and, um, Tai Chi. And it was an incredible, um, experience, um, because I let go of all the kind of anal retentive film geekdom for a couple of years and just made, you know, what acting is, is making art with your body and your feelings. And, and, and that was incredibly instructive on how to get to the place where I, at, to that point, I'm approaching my 20th year. I had not gotten in any movies, which is, I was

trying to find a point. The movies I loved are the movies that make me, that are moving to me. The movies I love are the movies that I feel my heart pinched or lifted, or there's just something deeply indescribable in the picture beyond the style, beyond the photography, beyond indescribably powerful about the moments captured human moments captured in the film and that was not something i had the tools yet to accomplish for myself at 19 or 20 and the but i felt more able to at least begin the pursuit after those couple of years acting, because I understood to me how much the technology of film and the kind of characters it attracts, like me, we can get lost reading Cinefx magazine and super eight filmmaker and American cinematographer and talking about the new Alexa versus 70 millimeter on Panavision lenses. We get lost in our gear.

And that's, if you want to be a DP, that's great. But on another level, the real job, and I really didn't learn this until after CalArts, I started working and I got many breaks and met many other great filmmakers. Mike Nichols also I ran into and and many filmmakers who gave me advice, and I could see what they're really gifted at, is making something human happen for a moment in front of a lens, something indescribable. In the same way that a special effect used to make us go, how did they do that? That there's an emotional moment or a kind of indescribable cinematic moment

where you understand human thought or feeling without the words even that someone achieves in a movie that makes the movie transcendent and live forever. And that the movies that live forever are not the most expensive movies. They are not the cheapest movies. They are the most heartfelt. They're the movies that move you. And that was my goal. That was where I wanted to get.

I ask about McKendrick and Sweet Smell of Success because I think some of your best films are about duos or twosomes that have a kind of perilous relationship. So, you know, Walk the Line has a lot of that. 310 to Yuma has a lot of that. You even talked about Kramer versus Kramer with Logan. This movie, Ford versus Ferrari, very much in that tradition of the complex relationship

between two people and how it- Well, I think, isn't that the, like, what baffles me is how would you make movies any other way? I see, I don't know anything else, but just a bunch of people getting along, trading smart remarks. I mean, it's like the Sonny and Cher show. I don't understand how to even make that because it's not what i experience in life right i mean even with the people we love most it is an endless negotiation of what we want what they want what what how we understand what you said i said we're bumping in the dark as as human beings all

the time trying to figure each other out and and this kind of i understand the appeal of snappy repartee or whatever but that's what i even love i mean you know star wars is so beautiful because it's so messy i mean what makes that first film uh so glorious is just how messy and raw and american graffiti like it is at the same time as it's got all that incredible groundbreaking effects work and dynamism. And that, that to me is, is, is what I'm always after is that kind of X factor, that human factor, that kind of thing that as a director, I almost have to guard the ability for the movie to fail in order to protect the chance for the movie to succeed. Meaning that it's a kind of, you know, when everyone was making Walk the Line, everyone had asked, can Joaquin sing?

Like in the studio, it's like, have you heard him yet? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, he sounds amazing. And he didn't at first. He really ultimately never sounded amazing. But the point was that to make a movie about a guy whose voice isn't Pavarotti's, it's that it's about it's connected to him, his soul. It's who he is. To make a movie where every time the actor playing him opens his mouth, this disembodied voice comes out his mouth seemed to me just utterly wrong. And so I was protecting the movie's ability to fail i had people even quit they were so frightened that joaquin couldn't pull it off and then about

10 days before we left for memphis joaquin's voice just dropped to an octave and we had learned with his band all the songs playing them up a step so that he could sing them. And suddenly they had to relearn them, playing them in the original chords, because he could now hit Johnny's notes. And what happened? To me, what happened was we just had that same kind of faith that Shelby is asking Ford for. And it's kind of a madness on my end where I have to protect the ability for the, for the people to come through. I'm gambling on Joaquin and, and I'm putting my faith in him, pulling it fucking out. And it's not an inappropriate gamble because he's brilliant, but it's still as scary for people because no one ever, no one wants to depend on everyone, anyone. They want it to be a given.

They want a life to be a guarantee and so much of what being a movie director is to me is actually assembling the best people you can and then just praying they all do their best work and exhorting them to but that and some days they will and some days they won't but that the general flow pushes against what anyone's expectations of what this project might have been if you can keep the environment open or electric on the set, meaning if people are excited to come to work each day, because they're not just here shooting a storyboard, but they're here making something happen in this moment that they may succeed or fail. I don't want to eat too much more of your time, but because of the way that the movie is being,

I think, pitched to people like me, which is, as I said, adult drama, kind of a sports movie, but movie star laden and a very accomplished filmmaker. Do you feel a burden that this movie has to be successful because it represents something that we just don't have as much of? I feel it. I mean, when my agent, when they greenlit this movie, my agent said to me, half jokingly, but enjoy making this movie. It's the last one of these you're going to get to make. And what he meant, what he meant was a theatrically released non IP, non trademark character motion picture that was large in scale. Meaning also, you you know i could probably always get a 20 million dollar movie made um but the reality is to make a 90 million dollar movie a period picture with the expense and all the craft hollywood craft required to recreate these moments it's something that studios are very nervous doesn't exist anymore um uh an audience for this doesn't exist anymore i mean in a way i'm proud of the movie

so i feel like i did what i could it's like running for president or something it's like i did everything i could so it's up to the voters now and uh and and why that i mean the audience is showing up and i think that for adults that complain that there aren't enough films for them there is a legitimate argument to make with them that you don't go to the movies enough meaning that the the reason studios aren't making movies for people over 25 is because people over 25 rarely go to the movies and that um no one's going to open a restaurant for people that don't go out to eat anymore. Does that bum you out? It bums me out, but I feel like it's a good fight.

And I feel like the world, I also feel like the, you know, I don't want to be one of those people. Like there were people complaining when rock and roll arrived that it was the death of music. I don't want to be one of those people. You know, in many ways, people complained when the DVD arrived and the Blu-ray arrived, and this is the death of movies, but technology is going to come. Streaming is going to come. And I certainly think there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone to just improve their work. Theater owners can improve their work. Why are they charging like Dolby Vision and IMAX are essentially just laser projectors with better sound systems, right?

So why are they charging a double cost premium for you to go to see a movie in the best version they can show it? So that means the rest of the screens in America and around the world are just shitty half price screens with dim projectors and shittier sound. Why? If you're worried about people not going to the movies anymore, put the best fucking food out on the table you can, or else they're not coming back because their home screens are getting better and better. Their home sound systems are getting better and better. And that idea of the big giant screen and the shared communal experience will die. I don't feel like one movie can save or lose that, but I do feel like I hope we don't make the case further for the retreat of that movie. I think that would be the short answer.

I hope we lift the needle as opposed to send it backward. I don't think one way or another. There's many other movies that are coming out this fall which fall under the same category i think because we're got an action and we got some big stars there's a lot of expectation about this but we'll see we'll see what happens well i think the movie is completely brilliant two quick ones for you sure as a you're not a motorsports person but if you could drive a ferrari or drive a gt40 which would you would you drive Ferrari okay so that's sort of the secret underlying tension of the film is that oh everyone thinks from the campaign that the movie is some kind of rah-rah America thing if anything I mean the

antagonist of the movie is not Ferrari it's Ford and I mean it'll be interesting when people see the picture and react to it but I think that that's to me the battle is not is not who they're opposed i think in many ways enzo is a hero and more like the hero our heroes shelby and miles in the movie because enzo ferrari is a maverick who created his own company and was making cars and going bankrupt in his pursuit of perfection meaning he was more of an artist and less of a businessman and um and i miss that romance and i certainly don't want to criticize that romance and so in a way the movie kind of lures you into this kind of idea that it might be this kind of nationalistic battle of titans but it's really um more about can these guys survive their own company yeah i like the uk title just a

little bit more. I feel like it's a little more representative of actually what the movie is. Yeah. Yeah. I think the trick was that I think the studio felt that no one in America knows what Lamont is. Of course. Yeah.

But we'll see. So we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? You've seen many films lately. You're showing a film in your office right now. Yeah. The last great movie I've seen, I'm trying to think, theatrically or in? Anything you like.

Could be old or new. Really up to you. I've stumped you. No, it's just I've been so lost on the media circuit of my movie that I have not been watching movies in that way. Well, first of all, I love James Gray's Ad Astra. I saw that recently with my son and really, really loved it. But the, and loved, I love James. I've known him a long time.

I do too. He's the best. Oh, he's the best. And he's a great talker. You can imagine with the two of us in the same room, it would be impossible. Maybe we can do that one day on the show. But I... What did you respond to in that astro uh james's poetry his patience um that that that he's that he's trying to slow us down a little um that he's

also a very good director of actors and and scenes and all the craft is, is at a master level, obviously, but that, that, um, we do, we, we have gotten ad and video culture and YouTube culture has put so much pressure on movies to be upcut to the point where, um, it's like a permanent ADD culture and that, um, some of what's beautiful in cinema is getting lost. It's okay if your mind even wanders a moment or you think about your life and come back to the movie. That's part of the beauty of it. The assumption that a movie is supposed to be 100% immersive to the point of losing yourself, it's kind of sad. It's kind of a matrixy expectation for art. It's like, I don't want to lose myself watching the movie. I want to find myself. So the, the, that the,

I don't want to escape. Um, I understand what the escape movie is, but I don't want to. And I think in that way, James certainly succeeded at that too, but I don't want to just eat breakfast cereal three meals a day. I do love the, and I think James is another hero doing that. I think there's so many movies I'm excited to see that I wish, oh, I thought Us was amazing. I saw it late after I was finished. I thought it was, I think, I mean, Jordan's just on fire. I mean, I think the kind of storytelling prowess, the confidence that he exhibited in that,

in the previous film, the kind of sense of innate style. There's a couple I've been, I've been, I can't remember the titles of them cause I'm watching them in Japanese, but I've just, there's this new, there's this, um, there's this new channel on direct TV that runs nothing but Japanese films in

Japanese. And there's this whole world of movies, um, that I'm getting exposed to. Um, I'm watching them, not understanding them for the most part, no subtitles,

no subtitles. It's a Japanese language channel for Japanese people, but the movies on this channel are just phenomenal and never been seen here before. And they are one of the great tragedies. I'm a huge Japanese cinema fan. Obviously you can name all the Kurosawa, Ozu, um, it's a Gucci on and on and on. But the, um, one of the tragedies to me in modern era is the French still make movies. The Italians a little bit less, but still make movies.

But the Japanese don't make very many original, really very few. They're almost all animation now. The original film business in Japan has died. And they were one of the, for an Island that small for a country that small, they were one of the most gigantic voices in cinema. I mean, unbelievable gigantic voice in cinema. If you consider from the B level of the Ultraman and the Godzilla's to the

exalted of Kurosawa and Ozu and on and on, it's like, it's a country smaller than California that was making, um, movies worldwide appreciated that were redefining the medium. Um, and, um,

just seeing kind of, they running black and white fifties films, um, uh, that are so beautiful. Um, that's an amazing recommendation that you don't know the name of the film and you can't necessarily fully understand them.

Yeah. Neko is the name of the channel on, um, on direct TV. Neko. I think it means cat in japan and uh and it's a um it was just it's 24 hours they're running amazing uh epics slice of life movies post-war movies um uh incredible black and white incredible anamorphic photography um and to me also i love discovering things where it isn't you feel like you found something unique like somewhat treasure and there's things to learn from it where it's not been beaten to death with analysis anyway there's a few things those

are brilliant james thanks so much for doing this. My pleasure, Sean.