The Big Picture - Top Five Movie Twists and Bill Simmons on ‘Those Who Wish Me Dead’

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

Sean and Amanda break down a handful of new releases because, well, vaccination rates are growing, theaters are open, and movies are being released (0:25). They discuss HBO Max’s ‘Those Who Wish Me Dead’ with Bill Simmons (4:10); break down Netflix’s new Amy Adams thriller, ‘The Woman in the Window’ (38:57); and then share their top five favorite movie twists (59:18).  Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Bill Simmons Producer: Bobby Wagner Additional Production: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Charles Holmes and co-host Grace Spellman present the most notorious new podcast in the industry, The Ringer Music Show. Every Tuesday, they'll bring you the latest news, the hottest takes, and the deepest reporting about the wild world of music and the chaotic industry that creates it. Check out The Ringer Music Show exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about twists, turns, and holy shit moments. On today's show, we'll be talking about a handful of new releases because, well, vaccination rates are growing, theaters are open, and movies are being released.

We'll be discussing Those Who Wish Me Dead with Bill Simmons, The Woman in the Window, and then Amanda and I will share our favorite movie twists ever. Amanda, does it feel like movies are back to you? It does to me. Yes. I think it's going to get a lot realer for you and me in a literal sense this week and then as the weeks start going. But in the sense that you and I had text exchanges with multiple people about films that were released as opposed to other stuff. Yes, movies are back. It's so exciting. So, Spiral the Book of Saw opened in theaters on Friday in 2,800 screens.

That movie made a decent amount of money. The weekend before that, we had The Wrath of Man. That's the most recent Guy Ritchie movie. And then this all kind of seems to be an appetizer for a couple of movies that we'll be seeing in the very near future, perhaps on the big screen, talking about A Quiet Place Part Two and Cruella. Are you anticipating those films? I am. I am going to see both of them. I only recently remembered this weekend that Emma Thompson is in Cruella. I mean, this is a two hour plus origin story about Cruella DeVille starring Academy Award winners, Emma Stone and Emma Thompson, two of my favorite Emmas and two of my favorite people. I have no idea who it's for. I have no idea why it's 134 minutes long,

but I'm anticipating it. Yeah, I am too. I'm anticipating A Quiet Place Part 2. I'm anticipating going to a movie theater very soon, very soon to see that film. I have not been in a movie theater for a long time. We'll do a big episode about A Quiet Place Part 2 after that movie is released. We'll do a big episode about Cruella pretty quickly after it's released because that film, in addition to being available in theaters, will also be available on Disney Plus Premiere. You know, I don't want to talk yet about the gigantic WarnerMedia Discovery Plus combo story. Have you been following that story? Of course I have. Trying to understand what was going on. Yeah. How could we do a fun episode about two giant corporate mergers? Is that possible for us? Historically, no. Historically, people have been like, could you please stop whining? And it's still a little bit unclear what it's going to look like and specifically

what's going to happen to CEO Jason Kilar and thus what's going to happen to Warner Media and how Warner Media is going to be valued in all of it. No one's talking about theaters in any of these write-ups. So no one's talking about movies really in any of these write-ups, which is understandable, but also depressing for this show. It is a little bit depressing, but hopefully things will turn out well. I'm, I don't know. I'm carelessly optimistic, I would say. Not carefully, but carelessly. You just love it when two big corporations join together on a Monday morning. You love the Zoom press conference. You love tax structures. You're just like, what's going to be great is when a cell phone company sells off one of the great historical

movie libraries to a guy who lives in the Hamptons next to Jeff Zucker and makes HGTV. Like that future of movies are in perfect hands. They're in perfect hands with us. Okay. That's all I'm going to say because speaking of Warner Media, Warner Media granted us a new movie this weekend on a streaming service. It opened in theaters, but it also hit HBO Max this weekend. It's a movie called Those Who Wish Me Dead. Amanda and I had planned to talk about this movie, just the two of us, but then we heard from Bill Simmons and he wanted to weigh in on that. So let's bring Bill onto the show. Okay, Bill. So you wanted to talk Those Who Wish Me Dead. Did you have a high awareness of this movie? Was this like Friday night first thing? I'm checking out the new Jolie movie. I had no awareness of it until Chris Ryan

texted me a picture of Littlefinger and I'm like, what's that? And he said, new Angelina Jolie movie? I had no awareness of it until Chris Ryan texted me a picture of Littlefinger. And I'm like, what's that? And he said, new Angelina Jolie movie. I'm like, where? Is it video on demand? So these things just come fast and furious now between VOD and streaming. Usually I just Google on Friday night to see what the new ones are. There's always articles on Decider or wherever. And they'll have like the five, six things that are coming out. This one was like, all right, I'm in. Little fingers in this. Angelina Jolie, hadn't thought about her in a movie in a couple of years.

There's a fire. And my guy, my guy from The Walking Dead. Jon Bernthal. The most underrated actor in Hollywood. And no one is ever unhappy to see Jon Bernthal. So this is a really weird movie. I've heard it compared a lot to the classic 90s action thriller that we're kind of missing for movies these days. And it does have a lot of the hallmarks. It is about smokejumpers.

It is about kidnappers and a shadowy conspiracy featuring maybe the CIA and the federal government. It features a weirdly star-studded cast of guys and that guys. You mentioned Angelina, of course, and Aiden Gillen, who plays Littlefinger on Game of Thrones and Nicholas Holt and John Bernthal and Amanda's boy, Tyler Perry.

Amanda, were you looking forward to this movie and did it pay off for you? I was surprised by how much I enjoyed this movie because I think that I had focused in on the Angelina Jolie playing like another character in search of redemption in an action movie written by Taylor Sheridan, like in the woods. I thought I was going to be getting more Yellowstone than I did. And I think it was the right combo of Yellowstone and then extra dumb Pelican Brief, which is one of my favorite

movies of all time. Just like a touch of conspiracy thriller, you know, just to keep you moving, even though none of it makes sense. As Bill noted, a lot of plot holes that we can discuss. And I don't really understand any of the character motivations, but it doesn't matter because it moves so quickly. And I was genuinely surprised by some of the things that happened. It was a great home viewing experience for me. Bill, where are you at on Angelina Jolie these days? Once one of the biggest stars of our lifetime. And now what is Angelina? So I have this theory. I texted you too that I wanted to talk about this because I think it's a really important moment in her career and it's not great for her. Too much has happened in her personal life and we have too much awareness of the celebrity Angelina

to take her seriously as an actress anymore. I cannot separate the human being and the celebrity from the acting. And this has happened a few times over the years. I think the most famous example is probably Elizabeth Taylor, who was probably the most famous actress of the late 50s into the 60s and the biggest A-plus list female celebrity we had and just kept getting married and divorced and got involved with Richard Burton. And that became the most scandalous relationship of the 60s, basically. And then by the time she got to the late 60s, you can go look at her IMDb. It's over. I think the last one was Virginia Woolf, and then it just dies. And I think the reason it died was because the celebrity of her overpowered our ability to watch her as an actress. And I think if you think about the greatest actresses

of the past 40 years, we don't really know a lot about them off the screen. Like Meryl Streep is married, I guess. She has a couple of kids, I guess. She goes on talk shows. She's not very forthcoming, but is weirdly likable. But I couldn't tell you five things about Meryl Streep. Frances McDormand, she's married to one of the Coen brothers. I don't even know which one.

I don't really know. She gives weird award speeches. All right. She's married to Joel. She gives weird award speeches that are kind of strangely endearing. Other than that, I don't know anything about her. And I think Angelina passed this point of no return a few years ago. And it's frustrating and it's sad. Sorry for the long monologue, but I really think she was one of the most talented actresses we had of the past 35 years. If you go back to the mid-late 90s and Gia and Playing by Heart, I think, which I really liked Playing by Heart. I like those movies when it's all the different characters and then they all meet at the end. It's like, oh, look at that. She was just really good.

And she was the one, if you're buying rookie cards, you would have bought the rookie cards of her. And the Brad Pitt thing really sidetracked it to the point now where when I see her in a movie, I don't feel like she's a character. This character, it's like, hey, we're going to make her damaged. She's got PTSD. She's got a death wish.

They just try to kind of half-heartedly establish that for 10 minutes. And I wasn't buying it. And I just, she's almost too famous now to be in a movie like this. I thought weirdly, it was by far the most underwritten part in the movie in a way. Like I think if Jason Statham had played that part, you could have said the same thing.

You would have just been like, I don't know, like PTSD, kids died in a fire. What is this part? But your point about Angelina in general is very well taken. Amanda and I did an episode about a movie called Maleficent, Mistress of Evil. Bill, I assume you have not seen

Maleficent 2. I remember my kids watched the first one. I don't know if any of us have seen the second one here at the Simmons House. They made a second one. It was pretty insane. I think it was meant to be like an allegory for Donald Trump's America, honestly. Remember that, Amanda? Yes, I do. So that was insane. But in the last 10 years, here are the movies Angelina Jolie has appeared in, just as an actress, not as a voice actress, but appearing in the film physically. She was in Maleficent in 2014,

By the Sea with her former partner Brad Pitt in 2015. Horrible. Maleficent, Mistress of Evil, and that's it. Until today. Until Those Who Wish Me Dead. So it's just just not only has she obviously had a lot of personal baggage, and I think you're right that I think a lot of famous people have to contend with this these days, but she doesn't do that much. She just hasn't

been working that much. And so this is kind of a weird return, like a non-franchise, non-Disney movie return for one of the most significant people. I don't know, Amanda, what do you think happened? What do you think of Bill's theory? I agree with Bill. I mean, and I do think starting in 2005, just the Brangelina of it all becomes so big that you can't separate it from her on-screen presence, which again with Bill, I agree is fascinating. I'm always just like completely mesmerized by her. I think that she really does have some sort of presence that never really got transferred to the movies. I mean, I was going to ask you both, what are the movies from 2005 to 2015 starring Angelina Jolie that you really love? I'll ride for Mr. And Mrs. Smith,

which I think is like a fascinating movie about Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie that you really love. I'll ride for Mr. and Mrs. Smith, which I think is like a fascinating movie about Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, which has value. And also it's like kind of a funny movie about marriage. And like, Salt's not bad, but also it is bad, but it's bad in a way that's good. But it's not like she has been picking good movies

or that any movie has known what to do with her. Like really since I would say Girl Interrupted and she won the Oscar, which is 20 years ago now. So I think some of it is celebrity and some of it is either the movies that she gravitates towards or the movies that get made about women her age just don't fit with what is appealing about her. And it's just gotten worse as the tabloid of it all continues. Sean, the biggest problem here for her, the first 10 years of her career,

is she was actually too beautiful. It was unrealistic to see her in certain parts. You know, like you almost like, what do you do with it? She's overpowering anyone she's with. If it's a scene, you can't put in a rom-com where she's, you know, like she's this career oriented woman who just needs to find a guy and she needs a date for a wedding. And she's got to pick this dude in her office. Like, no, she can get any man she wants. Like, that's just a fact. So I think she, it's, she graduated, gravitated toward these spy

type movies and these action things and things like that. But Scarlett had a little bit of the same problem, but she was also really smart with some of the choices she made. And she, you know, like Scarlett, like Angelina never had, um, I'm blanking the Bill Murray lost in translation. She never had that movie. She never had just like the really cool indie movie where she got to act and use all the pieces of her. It was always like, I am now making a thriller and I'm going to be Thriller Angelina.

I'm now making a sexy movie with Antonio Banderas. I'm now making a family movie where I'm this damaged person and playing by heart. Anyway, I don't know if there is a normal Angelina Jolie and maybe there isn't. And maybe that's why we never saw her in a movie. Yeah, that's the thing is that she really just seems more interested in doing the action movies and being like the, you know, the next Sigourney Weaver or whatever. And like a female action star,

I don't think she ever wanted to do something like normal. And again, I don't know how much of that is her instincts. I think some of it is and how much of that is like her being positioned against Jennifer Aniston and what we expect from like the star of Friends versus what we start of Angelina Jolie, which has been kind of in our heads for 15 years now, which is crazy to say. But she mostly seems to like playing these types of movies where she doesn't have to do much emotional work besides like bonding with a kid for five minutes. And otherwise, she's just running around. Well, I think to Bill's point, even more so than the fact that we know a lot about the details of her personal life, I think she has the opposite challenge of say Meryl Streep, or even like I thought of a bunch of people, Cate Blanchett, Julianne Moore, all these actresses that you think of from her generation or maybe a little bit older. Well, you're right, Bill. People don't really know very much about their personal lives at all.

We do know a lot about what's happened with Angelina, but as an actress, she's kind of the opposite. She's kind of mysterious. When you watch Meryl Streep in a movie, you immediately know who she is and you understand the character that she's playing. That's her gift, is you feel clicked into whatever the character is.

With Angelina, she's always playing this kind of shaded person who is afraid to reveal their motivations. She's, like you said, always appearing in spy movies or these very serious dramas where she can't totally reveal how she feels about things. She also only makes big movies. She doesn't make anything that seems small. I think basically Girl Interrupted is the last time she was in anything that could reasonably be called mid to low budget. And everything since then, she's at the center of the movie and it's a big noisy thing. It's a big noisy Clint Eastwood movie. It's a big noisy Oliver Stone movie. Robert De Niro directed

The Good Shepherd. She's in Beowulf with Robert Zemeckis. She works with good people, but often on their not best projects. And that's another challenge is sometimes you get unlucky. Sometimes you pick poorly. But Those Who Wish Me dead is weird because I think I loved almost everything about it that didn't have anything to do with Angelina Jolie. Like I kind of just wish the movie was about these two crazy assassins hunting for this sheriff character played by Bernthal. Bill, you know, like even Jennifer Lawrence, who I think has had a pretty disappointing last eight, nine years, if we're going to be honest, but at least she had like David O. Russell go, Hey, there's something here. Let's, let's try some things. And with Angelina, I don't, I don't really know what there was to try. She's so famous. And you know, let's be honest, like she had a lot of baggage. If you're a movie studio or director and you're like, all right, I'm going to hire Angelina. I'm getting, she's got seven

kids. She's in the spotlight all the time. There's going to be this incredible amount of attention on this movie we're making. I think that's going to steer you away and steer you to another actress because you don't kind of want to deal with it. Like she's, she's kind of like the Kyrie Irving of Hollywood, Sean, where it's like, there's a lot of talent here, but there's also a lot of baggage. Do I want to deal with it? But I also think the other part with her

that's really important is she's this seductress, right? She's just smoldering sexual energy. That's why she burst on the scene. We'd never seen anybody like her on a movie screen. Most beautiful mouth probably ever in a movie. And you just, you'd see her on a 50 foot screen and be like, my God, once she had the love triangle with Jennifer Aniston, it's hard to play that card in a movie. Like you were basically the home wrecker in real life. And then it's like, how do you tap into that in a movie

where it's like, I am the best looking person in this movie. I can take anybody I want. You know, the ultimate movie for her would have been basic instinct, right? She did. That's like the best looking person in this movie. I can take anybody I want. You know, the ultimate movie for her would have been basic instinct, right? She did. That's like the best possible part for her. This is, is she a good person? Is she a bad person? Is she killer? Is she not, she can get anyone she wants. She's just going to fuck with Michael Douglas. Like she actually probably should have been making more movies like that. But I feel like the Aniston thing took that off the table. She was never in a movie like that again. It seems like she's self-consciously stopped doing that kind of a role.

I mean, she hasn't done anything even close to that since, I guess, like maybe Alexander, there's a little bit of it in an original scene in the Antonio Banderas movie that you're talking about.

Would you have wanted to see her in Nomadland, Amanda? Like, could you have taken her seriously in that movie? No, because she's not, like you said, she's not Frances McDormand,

so she can't disappear into that part and you're immediately being like, okay, well, she's not Frances McDormand, so she can't disappear into that part. And you're immediately being like, okay, well, this character is real, but this character is made up. And you're interrogating the structure of the movie too much. I think you're right. She brings a lot with her. I do think also that someone could have made a basic instinct or something, like leaning into the persona and they just have not made those types of movies in the last few years or maybe she hasn't wanted to i like i i

do think there's some wasted potential but no she can't be in nomadland she's not an indie movie person did scarlet market correct her a little bit like she could have been in under the skin right angelina that's like the perfect angelina part and scarlet made like five of those that would have been great Angelina parts. The only difference is that Angelina, or Scarlett Johansson can do Marriage Story credibly. You know, and it's not that Scarlett was like stripped down or like ugly or something in Marriage Story.

She actually plays an actress in that movie and a famous actress and a beautiful person. But there is a different sense of relatability, I think, to Scarlett. Not that she's the most relatable person in the world but she she's just much more flexible and the kind of parts that she plays and she always has been honestly because she's always played serious dramas she's always played comedy she's always played action movies scar joe probably has the most well-rounded sheet of any actress of her generation the thing about angelina jolie though is like let's think of her slightly differently i I think her winning an Oscar at a very early age kind of confused us as to what

kind of a star she was going to be or even wanted to be. She wants to be Tom Cruise. You know, she doesn't want to be Meryl Streep. She doesn't want to be Frances McDormand. And you can tell by looking at the movies that she picked, Salt and The Tourist and Beowulf and all these movies. I mean, these are like big mainstream action and adventure and thriller and drama movies. They're not, she's not going to be making Florence Foster Jenkins. You know what I mean? Like that's not her style.

She's also, much like Amanda, very expensive life. I mean, you got to take these big picture movies to pay for your lifestyle. Like Amanda, she likes to be treated like a princess and she's got to make some financial decisions. Amanda is potting from Malta right now. She's been in Malta for 14 months. You guys finally found me out. Listen, I, she doesn't seem to want to be vulnerable. And I mean, that's the other thing about the, the marriage story and Scarlett Johansson seems to at least be willing to take roles that

admit some sort of like weakness i guess and i think the tom vulnerability yeah and the tom cruise comparison is a good one where like now his mission impossible characters like the entire script has to be rewritten to talk about like what a great person his Mission Impossible character is the whole time. And Angelina just wants to, seems to want to be doing that simultaneously of just like kind of shoring up her public image, Bill, but also kind of creating a distance from the public in these kind of impenetrable roles. But Sean, somehow it didn't hurt Brad Pitt.

And that's a really interesting fork here because they were in the same relationship with the same amount of celebrity and pressure, but Brad Pitt was able to kind of ease into these different parts where, you know, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is a great example. He became the guy

and you somehow didn't have the Brad Pitt baggage with him. Whereas Angelina, this movie, she made this Taylor Sheridan movie, basically a Rosario Dawson part. Let's be honest. Yeah. She's, Angelina is way overqualified to be in this movie.

She doesn't really have a lot to do. They have to give her this backstory of she's damaged, but whatever. She parachutes off the back of a car at one point. It's like, whoa, oh man, what's she going through?

And it's just like, why are you, why are you even in this movie? Like she clearly probably just liked Yellowstone and was like, cool. I want to work with that guy. And that was really it. Yeah. I mean, there's two reasons for that, right? One, obviously Hollywood is sexist. So they're going to give Brad Pitt a pass where they're not going to give Angelina Jolie a pass. There are not a lot of parts for women who are approaching their fifties in Hollywood. There never have been frankly. So that that's one part of it. Two, honestly, Brad Pitt just has way better taste and always has been.

I mean, he has always been a much better picker of projects. This is before he was with Angelina. This is after he was with Angelina. He just has, and you can tell by the movies he produces too, he has some of the best taste in Hollywood. And it's one of the reasons why no matter what the kind of, I don't know, the kind of like tabloid circumstances of his life, he usually is able to remain somewhat Teflon to all that stuff. And we've talked about that a bunch on the show. Are we sure he's not a better actor? Like maybe we're just overrating Angelina as an actor because she was so good at a young age. Like, I don't think she's a very good actress anymore. I really don't. I can't remember the last time I watched her in a movie. I'm like, man,

she crushed it in this one. It's been 15 years. But when's the last time she had a real part to sink her teeth into? That's like if she was, if she had something, if she did Girl Interrupted 2, James Mangold came back and he was like, I want to know where this character is 20 years later. You don't think she could do it? Yeah, but if you can only play damaged people and like elite spies, are you a good actress? I think she has a certain presence and a certain athleticism. I went back and watched hell or high water because I was in the Taylor Sheridan zone and a great movie.

Chris Pine's a wonderful actor. There's a scene where he has to beat somebody up and you can just watch Chris Pine, like thinking through every punch and it's not natural to him and he's like really concentrating so hard and god bless but Angelina does have like the physical ability to jump off of these towers and run and make that look visible and I am believable and I do also think like I still can't look away from her on the screen. Like, she's beautiful, but she also has that thing where she changes the light. And she's better in this movie than I think a lot of people, both male and female, would be once you get to the kid.

I thought she was nice with the kid also. They had some nice chemistry, in my opinion. I kept waiting for her to adopt the kid halfway through the movie just because she already has eight. That was the real life blurring, right? I was like, oh, she likes the kid halfway through the movie just because she already has eight. That was the real life blurring, right? I was like, oh, she likes the kids. At the end, she's like, we'll do it together. Yeah, meet my other eight kids. Yeah, oh my God.

I thought of that too when I was watching. I don't know if that was meant to be subliminal or purposeful. There's a scene early in the movie where there's an initiation of new smokejumpers and the veteran smokejumpers are sitting in the back kind of causing trouble. And there's about eight or nine guys,

like roughneck guys, tough guys, burly guys. They're all bearded and tough. And Angelina is sitting there and she looks immaculate. She is, the sun is beaming down her. It's ridiculous. She's wearing $500 sunglasses. Her hair is blowing in the wind. And it's like, this is just not, this is not only not believable, it's actually like frustrating to

try to convince us that this person belongs at this table. I'm going the other way. I thought it was hilarious. I actually like laughed out loud. I was like, are they fucking kidding? I thought it was in on the joke. And I was like, oh, lol, Angelina has written herself into this movie and we're just going to go with it. I was amused. Also, all those guys are hitting on her nonstop. There's no way they've ever run into any woman who looks like that in any circle of their life at any point. And there is a little bit of like the Angelina Jolie,

the talking points, like she doesn't have any female friends. She's not that relatable female rom-com character. You don't like, women don't like her, which is, you know, a gross stereotype that i'm sorry for even like repeating but that's always been like she was a homewrecker well i yeah but you know it's like i don't like repeating the talking points but it does seem that opening scene is just like playing into that right it's like okay you don't want me to be in a women's

movie they're just like here i am with just eight guys having the time of my life in a terrible wig let's just can we say she looks great except for the wig, which is just not, I don't accept it. It's just horrible. And she looked, it reminded me of the Costner Ashton Kutcher movie. Were they, were they lifeguards or deep, deep, deep water lifeguards? Yeah. Is it like the rescue or the. Yeah. It was like something like that. And it kind of was good on paper, but it wasn't, this movie was better than that. But it was the same thing where they bring you in this world.

It's like, these people are smoke jumpers. We barely see them jump into smoke ever. I was so waiting for more smoke jumping. It just, once the movie started, that was it. But they try to bring us in this world. And honestly, it would probably have been a better TV show. I love Littlefinger. That's why the movie worked for me. I thought Littlefinger was amazing.

I'm ready to see him in Die Hard 6, like trying to take down a building. I really thought he had some Hans Gruber chops. And when he died, I was surprised. I thought he would be the last person to die. They actually killed him a little bit early. Spoiler alert. So, okay. You're going in a million directions, all of which are good. If you want to watch a better Smokejumper movie, I think Only the Brave, that's a really good fire movie. It's much sadder, but it's very overlooked, I thought.

Has a fire movie ever totally worked? Like even Backdraft, which they put so many resources behind and such a huge cast, and you left and you're like, eh, I don't know if there's ever been like an awesome one. Towering Inferno?

Oh, Fred Astaire, Oscar nomination over seven people from Godfather 2. That's not ideal. That's definitely not ideal. So is he for you, Bill, officially Littlefinger and no longer Karketty? Is he not Mayor Karketty? That's a tough one. What do you think, Amanda? He's Littlefinger. Yeah, I call him Littlefinger just because it's easier to say than Karketty, but it's weirdly he's not Aiden Gillen yet.

I still feel like you just, it's like, oh my God, it's Littlefinger. My wife and I were watching it on Friday and she was like, who is that? I don't, that's someone I know. And I was like, it's Karketty. And she's never seen The Wire. And she was like, what are you talking about? What is that? And then I said, it's Littlefinger.

And she had a moment of realization. So I guess he's Littlefinger now. He's also bringing the Littlefinger associations to this movie. Totally. Like whether by intention or not, you're just kind of like, I don't trust you because you're Littlefinger and this is going to go badly. Awesome plot hole though. There's reasons why this is a bad movie, even though I really enjoyed it. But they basically, they kill this dude who has all this information, but his son's in the car.

They know the son's not in the car and they just decide, oh yeah, we're good. The car rolled down the hill. I'm sure the son's dead too. They don't check. And then like 10 minutes later, like, hey, what happened to that kid? It's like, he could have gone down the hill and seen if he was in the car

like it was 10 minutes ago so that's like the genesis of the last half of this movie basically is that they got to find this kid and it's like they could have just gone down the hill and shot him can we have a quick conversation about Nicholas Holt who is the other half of the Aiden Gillen

yeah where's he from so he's been in a lot of stuff, obviously. Many years ago, he broke out as a little kid in About a Boy. And since then, he dated Jennifer Lawrence for a while. He's been in a lot of movies. He's in the X-Men movies. Most recently, this is a very handsome guy. He seems to be taking on strictly villain parts.

He was one of the wild boys in mad max fury road he spent 2020 appearing as peter the third in that hulu show the great and very good and he was also in the favorite and he was in the favorite stealing in the favorite he was good in the favorite and now he's in this movie um and i this is like he's way overqualified for this part but also his heart was not in this i kept waiting for him to turn because i thought he was not enough committed to hunting down all of these people in a little finger way that i thought that he was going to develop some sort of conscience and or that he was going to make up for the plot hole that bill identified which is very obvious that was a real make up for the plot hole that bill identified which is

very obvious that was a real like screaming at the camera at the screen like hey you should have checked on the the kid even though i was rooting for the kid he's he sucked in this movie this movie had a lot of pieces of other movies that i've liked one of my favorites is we've got to find this person we got to get a guide let's take them like cliffhanger had that. What was that Sidney Poitier movie? Shoot to kill. Yeah. Where it's like,

Hey, you're fucking taking us or we're going to shoot you. And the guy's like, yeah, just shoot me. I'm not taking it. He was like, um,

well, we're not going to shoot you. We're going to shoot everybody you've ever loved one at a time. It was like, Oh, all right now I guess I'll take you. But, uh,

that always works. I was like, when they have to bring the, uh, discouraged guide discouraged guide who you know is going to try to turn on them at one point. In this case, our guy, Jon Bernthal, who just put him in better stuff. I actually think he's doing it exactly right. There's no risk of overexposure here. Every time he shows up, this is literally what I say to myself, fuck yeah. Every time he shows up, this is literally what I say to myself. Fuck yeah. Like every time he shows up in a movie, you know, he's just, he's going to look really burly. He's going to be like 10% sensitive, but 90% I'll smash your face in.

And I don't know. I never done wrong for me. Did you watch walking dead Amanda? No, I've seen clips, but I'm not a zombie person. They killed him off in the first season. And it was the biggest mistake they made on that show, other than killing Steve Yoon, who was, you know, they basically got rid of the two best actors who had ever been on the show. I think it was the second season. I think Shane made it to the second season. But they basically stopped watching the show,

and they killed his character off. Yeah, it was tough. But yeah, that guy, maybe Sean's right. Maybe he knows what he's doing. Maybe he's slow paying it, waiting for a Michael Mann movie. Whenever he pops up, even as Lee Iacocca in Ford vs. Safari, which never forget that that happened. That was the strangest but best cameo. And again, I was like, oh, sure. I'm glad you're here. Another person where, oh, sure. I'm glad you're here. Tyler Perry. See also, Gone Girl.

One or two great scenes where he knows everything, is explaining it to everyone else, and then disappears. I could use more of this. Sean, that's the career I would have as an A-list actor. I would just pop up in movies for like one or two scenes and people would be like, why is Simmons in this? I didn't realize he was playing the detective. Are we going to see him again? No?

This is so weird. Phil, it's not too late, man. It's not too late. If you want to pivot in your 50s. So, Bernthal's got two movies coming up and he's doing exactly what you're describing. He's in The Many Saints of Newark, which is The Sopranos prequel, and he's playing Johnny Soprano. Oh, yeah. And then he's in King

Richard, one of Amanda's most anticipated movies, playing Rick Maki, the tennis coach who trains Venus and Serena. So Bernthal season is upon us in 2021. I've had the stock for a while. I've had Jason Momoa stock forever, as both of you know. I hope you cashed out after Aquaman. Well, and I have stock in just action movies like this, because I think in the last five years, I watched, my dad was here two weekends ago and it was like, oh, the Marksman's

Bond. I know this is going to be bad. We immediately bought it. Like no hesitation at all. It's a C minus. It's fine. I enjoyed it. I got what I wanted. I honestly enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. It's Liam Neeson. He's, you know, he can shoot people. I just feel like these movies have come back. They kind of died in the late 2000s. Because I remember Carolla and I went to see Shooter once with Ryan Felipe. No, not Ryan Felipe. Wallberg. Yeah, Wallberg.

And Ryan Felipe was in the TV show. But it was like, they just should make more of these movies. This is fun. I'm glad they did this. And I think there was some sort of price point where it became not worth it for them to make it anymore. It was basically, yeah, we can make a couple million dollars if we do it this way. Now it doesn't matter in the streaming VOD era. You spend, I don't know, 20 to 50 million and Netflix doesn't care. HBO Max doesn't care. They got a movie that we all watched this weekend. Well, so let's wrap on this.

Taylor Sheridan, really interesting decision by him, I think, to make this movie because of course he is the showrunner, the creator, the auteur behind kind of the biggest drama on TV right now. I mean, Yellowstone seemingly is the most popular show. He obviously has written a lot of great movies. Amanda mentioned Hell or High Water. He wrote Sicario. He directed a movie called Wind

River, which this does have a lot in common with, honestly, very similar where he writes a quote unquote strong woman and she's paired with a guy and they're on a chase, they're on a run trying to figure out what's going on. He is really like the last living practitioner of these kinds of movies. But there's something like a little bit elevated or at least like faux elevated about what he's doing. Like, I think we're meant to take these movies a little bit more seriously. This one just did not have there was no like meaning behind it. There was no idea. There was no like we have to protect the native lands and be mindful of the heritage of this country.

We have to think about what banks did to people in hell or high water and how they kind of tore people's lives apart. This movie is just about like fire, like don't set fire to the forest. Like I, is there, was there anything deeper than that? We learned what to do in a situation though, how to go under the water and just bob your head up. I never knew that. Now I know. So to me, it was a worthwhile experience. Creeks lead to rivers. Rivers lead to towns. Didn't know that. I'm ready for any sort of wood survival that I have to do now. Okay. Top five camping movies coming soon, Linda. We do recasting couch in the rewatchables. To me, the most obvious recasting of all time for this movie would be J-Law in the Jolie part. I think it's a much better movie.

I think it makes much more sense that that character's in it. Angelina just seems too old. She's too old and too beautiful, and it's just hard to fathom why she's in this movie, why she still has this job. Bill, what if it was Chastain? No. Jennifer Lawrence is 30.

I mean, is she old enough to be a veteran smokejumper? Don't you think she's like at the prime of her smokejumping age? I mean, to Bill's point, how long in your life can you really be a competitive smokejumper? Like Sean Fennessey, do you think like right now is a good time for you to be out there in the woods solo? What do you think I was doing this weekend? Okay. Also, wouldn't she have met some rich guy at some... Where was this movie located? I can't remember. Montana. Montana. She would have met some rich Montana guy at some point in the 15 years before this whole thing happens where she's just like, hey guys, I'm out of smoke jumping. I'm going to go marry this tech billionaire and we're going to live about 15 miles away. We'll

see you later. She loves jumping smoke. What's she going to do marry this tech billionaire and we're going to live about 15 miles away. We'll see you later. She loves jumping smoke. What's she going to do? She has a passion. You know, just like you have a passion for movies like this. She has a passion for smoke. Why didn't they have her jump smoke in the last half hour? It's a great question. For love of the game with Costner, like, I'm going to get the same pitch in the last half hour.

It's a baseball movie. Well, she's running through fire, right? She kind of has, there's that big escape sequence where we know that her sense of the fire in the forest helps elude or, you know, get away from the bad guy. I have an idea for your show. I think it's a spinoff of Casting Couch. It's like almost like roulette or merry-go-round

because Angelina and Marriage Story is a really, really, really, really cool idea. I don't know if it works. It don't work. She might be, she might be too famous.

It doesn't work, but I know I'd watch it, but I think it's like you spin the merry-go-round and it's kind of like a, what if like you put her in that, you put Scarlett in this movie and you spin a couple other people. And you know what I mean? Scarlett in this movie. I spin a couple other people and you know what I mean? A true Scarlett in this movie. I just, I don't buy it.

I buy Angelina Jolie at her age in the woods with all of these people before I buy fancy New York City, Scarlett Johansson in Montana, smoke jumping. I just, again, I know too much about her. This movie rips off cliffhanger in a couple of different ways. And I'm just going to leave you guys on that. Okay. I think Sheridan probably thought it was enough time that we weren't going to remember Cliffhanger.

It was 28 years ago. But I saw what you did a couple of times here, Taylor. Bill, I was going to ask you to come on this show later this month, or I guess in June, to do a Sly Stone Hall of Fame episode. But you're kind of stepping on it now with Cliffhanger Takes. There's supposed to be a Sly movie in June. Will you do a Hall of Fame episode with us? I would love to.

What is the Sly Stallone movie? It's called Samaritan. I have not seen a single trailer for this movie, but it says June 4th. It says it's happening. How are you feeling about Sly? Are you excited? You look really sad all of a sudden, Bill. I think sometimes you should just ride into the sunset.

Wow. As an actor. Wow. He hasn't gotten his Oscar. When's he getting his Oscar? It's not happening. Oh, my God. If it didn't happen, Creed was his best chance.

Who beat him for Creed? Mark Rylance in Bridge of Spies, I believe. Yeah, that was fucking terrible. Yeah. That wasn't good. God. I'm a fan of both men.

Amanda, do you still, do you still think the Oscars telecast was good or did we have the T-Talks program? I had a nice time. I had a nice time. It's Billy. You can't tell me what I enjoy

and don't enjoy that's the magic of our relationship all these years later I was having a fun time and then I didn't because there were some choices made

at the end that didn't pan out my guy took a risk wasn't a good risk you know yeah okay it's one way to put it

Bill thank you so much for coming on the There's one way to put it. Bill, thank you so much for coming on The Big Picture. Always good to see you. It was great seeing you both. Okay. From the ridiculous to the even more ridiculous,

another new movie was released over the weekend featuring another beloved and well-known and oft-celebrated actress. I'm talking about The Woman in the Window. The Woman in the Window, a few years ago, probably among the most anticipated movies of the last few years. It is an absolutely stacked operation featuring some of the most talented people of their generation, including director Joe Wright and a huge Amanda favorite and a favorite of mine as well. Amy Adams, of course, Gary Oldman, Julianne Moore. The screenplay was written by the great Tracy Letts. It was produced by Scott Rudin, features also folks like Wyatt Russell and Jennifer Jason Leigh. And wow, this

movie is absolutely terrible. Amanda, what'd you think? Yeah, I think we're going to have to qualify my Joe Wright fandom, which is that there were a couple of great movies there. And then for the last 10 years, it's been pretty much close to a disaster. And I would say that this is the worst of the bunch. This just doesn't come together. And this is one of those movies that is kind of a head scratcher because the people involved from Joe Wright to Tracy Letts to the cast that you mentioned are all extremely talented. It is a best-selling book, though I do think we should speak briefly about the source material. And it looked like this should work or it's not a bad idea. And it just absolutely does not come together. Yeah.

So this is a movie that was produced for Fox 2000, which was a kind of a subsidiary of 20th century Fox, 21st century Fox that was shuttered after the Disney acquisition. And so I think this is one of the last movies that is going to come from that generation. The movie during the pandemic was sold off to Netflix and distributed via Netflix. I get the impression that a lot of people saw this movie and it's an interesting example of what movies can and are becoming to people, which is increasingly

wallpaper. People are going to be more willing to try a movie like this, but also they'll probably bail on it if they know that it's not working out or if in the case of a movie like this, but also they'll probably bail on it if they know that it's not working out. Or if in the case of a movie like this, which is ostensibly a kind of a mystery thriller, eager to see how it resolves itself, get kind of mad about having invested the one hour and 35 minutes and then never think about it again. We of course are hosting a movie podcast. So we are thinking about it once again. Can you talk a little bit about Dan Mallory and the origins of this book? Yeah, I just reread this piece. So this book, The Woman in the Window, which was published under the name A.J. Finn, but that is a pen name for Dan Mallory, who was the subject of a New Yorker profile by Ian Parker that is absolutely more interesting than the book that he wrote. And in fact, is so interesting that it is being made into a TV show starring Jake Gyllenhaal as Dan Mallory,

which should give you a sense of what's going on in Dan Mallory's life. If you know the kind of roles that Jake Gyllenhaal pursues. I mean, he's like a wannabe Patricia Highsmith character. And he has fashioned himself as an Oxford professor and PhD candidate. And then as a book editor, gave himself and most of his family members terminal illnesses that he then miraculously recovered from. And it is like a talented Mr. Ripley story of someone working his way through the publishing industry, both in London and in the U.S. And culminates in him writing this book that is fantastically successful and was number one on the New York Times bestseller list. I believe that he got a $2 million two book deal, which is a lot of money in the publishing

industry and, you know, was supposed to be made into this major Hollywood adaptation starring all of your favorite movie figures. And I guess the reception of the movie, the result and reception of the movie also sort of reflects what's going on in Dan Mallory's life, which was he was the subject of this New Yorker piece. And he denies most of it within the New Yorker piece, but it's quite well reported and a great read if you haven't sought it out. But that quickly overcame like anything about the book. I know many people who know a lot about the Dan Mallory story, but never read the book. And I think in some ways added to the intrigue of this project, of like, there's just an extra layer of mystery and, you know, psychodrama and nonsense and,

oh, this must be really good. And unfortunately, it overlooks the fact that it was adapted from the book and not the Ian Parker New Yorker piece. And the book just ain't good. I read it before the New Yorker piece came out because I read all of these trashy novels. You know, it's in the school of Gone Girl, which I do think is a good book. And then The Girl on the Train, which is another bestseller book about an unreliable female narrator that got adapted into a movie starring Emily Blunt that you and I saw together. And that was also a disaster. Terrible film. That book is not as good.

And I do think sometimes that the source material, I mean, I always think the source material matters, but there's a fundamental flaw here, which is that it's just, it's a bad twist. And if you're going to make a really twisty psychological thriller, you got to have a satisfying twist and it was never going to get off the ground with what they were working with. You nailed it. And we will talk a little bit more about twists shortly. There's a lot to unpack also inside the movie. I don't know if this was also true of the book, but the movie is very movie conscious. And sometimes I love a movie that is movie conscious. We talked about the Mitchells versus the machines last week on the show. That's a movie that is obsessed with movies. This movie is obsessed with movies to the point of exhaustion and self-defeat, I think, by continuously showing us 40s and 50s noir films, by insisting upon drawing allusions to Hitchcock's Rear Window, all I could do was think of other movies that did this so much better.

And it made me wonder what was even the purpose of this film and the purpose of trying to tell this story when, you know, even if you don't want pure Hitchcock, we already have lived through Brian De Palma paying homage to Hitchcock for 30 years. So it's like, it's a, it's a Xerox of a Xerox. And that in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing if it's fun or if you have incredible performances or there's something, there's a new spin on it. And I, I just didn't really feel like any kind of a spin whatsoever. I couldn't believe how inert and how kind of dull this movie was. Obviously, it's well understood that this movie went through a lot of reshoots, that they did some test screenings and the film didn't come together. And then they reworked it

and tried to salvage it. And even still, it feels completely disjointed and kind of boring. What else do you think went wrong aside from the province of the story? Well, and this is a little bit the province of the story because the book is someone without a lot of original ideas trying to make Rear Window into a novel that women who liked Gone Girl would buy. Which, you know, everybody's got to make their money somehow. And also, I bought it. So, I bought it. So I guess it worked. But if you're trying to make a movie out of a book that is making a book out of Rear Window, like you're just you're already in trouble. You know, like one thing that you shouldn't do is try to remake Rear Window, but less

good. And I don't know what else to say. That's once you're starting from that point, there's not a lot that, that you can do. And also if you don't have the Hitchcock touch, I mean, it is, the story is a woman who's agoraphobic. And so you're just stuck in one place and that's, you've got, you've got one room or a series of rooms and a lot of confusing things that are happening outside possibly, but you don't go outside. And it is also playing a little bit with perspective and reliable or unreliable narrators,

but that's all in someone's head. So there's nothing to do on the screen, I guess, except show old movies in an attempt to fill some space. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough. Speaking of tough, let's talk about Amy Adams. Amy Adams, is she one of our favorites? tough yeah it's tough speaking of tough let's talk about amy adams amy adams is amy adams is she one of our favorites is she one is she one of the one of the stars of the big picture she's

maybe for you she's definitely the star of one of your weirdest jokes which you like continued to put into an outline about how much chris ryan loves amy adams and chris ryan loves amy adams i don't know what you're talking it It's not a joke. He keeps sending me Tex Avery cartoons of wolves with tongues hanging out of their mouth. But Chris isn't on this podcast. You know what I mean? So it's like, we're just like continuing this weird joke and an outline that Chris will never see. Chris lives in my heart. What can I say? You know, might as well. But is he your, is she your favorite? Because I feel really neutral about Amy Adams.

You know, once upon a time, I was a really big fan of hers as an actress. I do think, obviously, she's immensely talented. Sure. I think Junebug, when she kind of quote-unquote debuted, I think that's when a lot of people saw her for the first time, I had a very strong reaction to her. I was like, oh, wow.

I feel like movies have been waiting for a person like this, an actress like this. It felt like, in some ways, she feel like movies have been waiting for a person like this, an actress like this. It felt like in some ways, like she could be, gosh, what's the best way to put this? She felt like a perfect fusion of Goldie Hawn and Meryl Streep to me. I was like, this is a person who can play light comedy and serious drama.

And there's not a lot of people who can do that. And so I think she's had a really interesting career. She's obviously been in a ton of great movies, movies we talk about on this show all the time. She's on a hell of a cold streak right now, at least from my vantage point. Obviously, Hillbilly Elegy was a complete non-starter, arguably a bigger catastrophe even than this movie.

And I was not a big Sharp Objects person. I know more people liked Sharp Objects, but that similarly seemed like it was from a Gillian Flynn novel who wrote Gone Girl. And that was just an HBO series that didn't really work for me at all. And I thought her performance was really over the top, or at least to the point where I didn't think that John Mark Vallee put her in a position to succeed in that series. And so she's now taken on these three very heavy roles about women who've

experienced very specific trauma, who are kind of coping with addiction in a certain way. They're all kind of samey. The performances are all kind of samey and all three projects are not very good. And so where is Amy Adams? I guess she was in the Snyder Cut. That was not awesome. Oh my God.

Force majeure. It's funny because as you were speaking, I was thinking about Bill's Angelina Jolie theory. And in a lot of ways, Amy Adams is like the complete opposite of Angelina Jolie. I don't know a ton about Amy Adams's life. Absolutely. Outside of, and I know that she's like a great actress and she takes on a lot of roles, but I have no real association or relationship to her or even to the type of performance that she really seeks out. She just

shows up in movies that are supposed to be good because Amy Adams is in them. And that worked for a while. But also, if you pick the wrong movies, her strategy doesn't really seem to be panning out right now either. I guess the other thing I know about her is that she still hasn't won an Oscar. And that's tough. And that does seem to be influencing some of the choices or maybe we're reading into it. Like why else would you do Hillbilly Elegy except to try to win an Oscar? If there's another answer, I don't want to know it.

It seems that way. I mean, I think since 2010, she was on a very impressive streak in the first half of that decade. She did The Fighter and then The Master and then Her, American then her american hustle big eyes and arrival and there is good yeah there were a couple of superman movies sprinkled in there but aside from that that's a very impressive sheet and then nocturnal animals which your mileage may

vary on that one i was not a big fan but she was trying something new. And then Justice League. And then Vice, which she was Oscar nominated, as I recall, for her work as Lynn Chaney. I feel like that's already kind of a forgotten performance for her, though. I don't see a lot of people in the timeline repping the Lynn Chaney gifs. I mean, no.

I mean, that was sort of the whole problem with Vice, which is not a problem with the movie, but the reception. There was no one advocating for it, even though you and I kind of liked it. Yeah, I kind of liked it. Next year is Dear Evan Hansen, which is the third of the three big musicals coming out this year. We have In the Heights, and we have West Side Story, and then we have Dear Evan Hansen. I've never seen Dear Evan Hansen, the stage show. I haven't either, but I just...

It's a lot of musicals. It's a lot of musicals. This is a more modern musical. It's from Stephen Chbosky, who directed The Perks of Being a Wallflower and the movie Wonder with Julia Roberts a few years ago. So we'll see what Amy Adams does there. And then she's appearing in Disenchanted after that,

which is the new Disney sequel to Enchanted. Is it a sequel or a prequel? I don't actually know. I just know it's related. I can't also believe that I said out of everything we just discussed that I am excited for the Disney sequel or prequel to Enchanted. I mean, Amy Adams, I don't know what to say.

It's been a tough couple of years. You're our resident Disney princess on this podcast. Oh my God, how did I suddenly, in the span of one episode, become a princess? What did I do? I just came to work this morning. I don't know. Okay, well, let's talk about twists.

You mentioned that the twist in The Woman in the Window, and I guess there are two twists. There's like the reveal, there's the reveal of the killer, and then there's also the reveal of kind of her character's backstory, her right i was going to ask you which do you consider to be the twist in this movie because i knew all of them and they're positioned slightly differently in the movie so i think that the first reveal is thought to be like this profound revelation.

And then the second reveal is just like, let's wrap the movie up. That was my interpretation of how they wanted to tell the story. I thought that kind of just should have been inverted in terms of the power. I think if they had done that, the movie might've worked a little bit better because the first reveal is kind of obvious.

Like it's kind of obvious through the first hour of the movie if you're just watching it. I didn't read the book and I was like, oh, okay. So I don't want to spoil it if anybody wants to watch this poor film but um it it it was not a revelation to me and it did not make the movie make any more sense so that's the very last thing that you learn in the book uh see okay okay yeah and and and the

book because it's first person or you know close person, I can't remember, or close third person, I should say, can, like, has a little more control over what you know and what you don't know. And so that that is a bit more of a surprise. But because it comes at the end after everything else has happened, it's less the twist. It's more just kind of like the explanation of how this happened to this person. I see. Which is more or less satisfying. It's the other twist that really bums me out. The reveal of the killer. Yeah.

Which you just did not think was effective. That's one of my least favorite twists and or kind of like murder mystery solutions because i guess we'll just dance around it but it undercuts everything that happens in the in the in the movie or the book before it's just kind of like you wasted 300 pages because something else totally different that is kind of like operating at a different universe was happening and i never really liked that twist i i there are a lot of novels i think over over time where i've gotten to page 300 and then they just like completely pivot the solution of the book that does not feel correlated to the first 300 pages you read and you're like so you just do this you just fuck with me for 300 pages and then just change the script on me. And the movie does have that.

And a lot of movies have that. I mean, honestly, most murder mysteries do that because they're trying to get you to not guess who the killer is. Sure. But at least many of them have some sort of motivation that is grounded in the way that you spent the last two hours. And this is sort of like a deus ex machina. Surprise. This is what was happening. So what makes a good twist for you?

I think something that you can go back afterwards and see all the clues and see how they put it together. And you're like, oh my God, I should have seen it, but I haven't seen it. I mean, I do like, it's almost that like Soderbergh Ocean's 11 reveal where they tell you and then they go back and show you exactly how everything happened. And you're just like,

because as has been established, I'm a pretty dumb movie watcher. Like I don't actually pick up on the clues. I'm trying to just go along for the ride and I'm not really trying to solve everything because I think it's so fun when I'm surprised. So that moment of, of being like, oh yeah. And that they had laid all the groundwork for me is the major. And also that it adds something to the story, right? Yes. Would you call yourself a fan of things with a twist? Do you like M. Night Shyamalan movies? Do you like the Twilight Zone? Do you like things that

are self-consciously twisty? Because you murder mysteries yeah but no I don't like anything that is hugely self-consciously twists when it's like trying because as soon as they're like and another twist and another twist I just I I'm like okay you're just trying to get me to create a reddit page and I'm not gonna do that so like you know even we're watching Mare of Easttown, which is not really twisty, but they're definitely doing the thing in every episode where they're like trying to a red herring. Like this person is under suspicion and this bottle of Rolling Rock is like really the smoking gun. And you're like, oh, but there was a twist. Loving Mare of Easttown. Me too. really the smoking gun and you're like but um there was a twist in the loving mary's town there was a real twist in the most recent episode incredible episode deeply upset by because i i

cared about the characters involved in the twist and i'm aghast and also just didn't expect it so there was really an element of surprise too, right? Yes, it was shock. What happened in the episode was shocking and that you want both things. You want the sense that, I thought you put it very well, the sense that if you go back and you trace the steps, you can see the clues,

you can see the way that the story is told in a way that is sort of very delicately insinuating something that could be true, but you have to pay close attention. And then also you still have to have your breath taken away. You still have to feel like, oh my God, they did that. I can't believe they did that. I love that feeling of, I can't believe they did that. Or I never saw that coming. That's one of the

purest emotions that we can have when we're watching an entertainment. So I love twists. I do love self-consciously twisty things too. I'm still, you know, to use a Bill Parlance, like I'm still holding a lot of M. Night Shyamalan stock. Every other M. Night Shyamalan movie, I'm like, my guy's still got it. And then he makes the next movie and it sucks. And I'm like,

God damn it, man. Like, you're on a streak and then you broke your streak of one. Well, the M. Night Shyamalan thing is like the first time that it happens for you, exhilarating.

Oh, God. And then you kind of know the playbook and so you are kind of charting and you can't help but be like, oh, well, I bet it's going to be this and then this person is going to do the XYZ. Christopher Nolan a bit too, right? I think maybe part of the tepid response to Tenet is just that people know that there are so many hijinks that then he has to put in more hijinks. And then suddenly you

and Chris are like lecturing me about like space time and how Robert Pattinson is actually the which I still don't understand. And you made it worse for me. I recall you lecturing me about like space time and how Robert Pattinson is actually the set, which I still don't understand. And you made it worse for me. I recall you lecturing me about space time. No, I did. I knew a lot about the theory of time and I came in really hot at the beginning. And like by the end, I just, I don't, I still don't understand what happened in Tenet. Like you made me understand Tenet less. And I guess that was your point, but I like things to make sense. I like the twist to add up. Let me tell you, you're not the first person to tell me that I've allowed you to understand Tenet less than after you listened to the podcast. I'm very sorry to the listeners out

there for confusing them about Tenet. I don't get Tenet. I think I do, but I kind of don't. Let's talk about our twists. Okay. There is a lot of twists historically that we could talk about on this episode. These are our favorites. We'll miss some. There'll be some that you love out there that we are not aware of or we didn't decide not to list, but this is just the ones that we love.

Why don't we just start with Amy Adams and your list? Yes. This is kind of a surprise one, but my number five is Arrival arrival a movie that i just really love as has been much discussed on this podcast but it took me a second to realize that it does revolve around a twist and that um spoiler alert i guess spoiler alert for everything that's about to come yes if you haven't seen some of these most of these movies are iconic not all of them if you haven't seen arrival just skip ahead 30 seconds um but that the kind of flashbacks

that we thought we were seeing of her life with her her daughter and um the the death of her daughter and her relationships and and also kind of how she saves the world to be quite honest um are not in the past and are things that haven't happened yet. And so what the aliens have taught her is to go back to a different understanding of time and that time can be seen and felt in a more circular or holistic way as opposed to the linear way that we and Christopher Nolan really understand it. And what's amazing about this twist is like how moving it is. All of the other twists on my list are like a real gasp, like, oh my God, can you believe it? But this like brought tears to

my eyes. It really brings like a lot of the sort of spiritual, for lack of better words, like, but definitely motivational character aspects of arrival home while also being science fiction. And I guess because I don't have this type of brain, I don't often associate sci-fi and certainly twists with like really fulfilling, moving experiences, but arrival is a twist that is actually is really gratifying. It is definitely a twist. It's and it sees it's fun. It's very,

another fun film that another film that is fun to unpack, you know, to kind of like look back through the events of the film and try and make the pieces fit together. And, you know, frankly, Amy Adams,

his daughter in the films named Hannah. And that of course is a palindrome. Oh my God. Get out, get know, frankly, Amy Adams' daughter in the film is named Hannah. And that, of course, is a palindrome. Oh, my God. Get out. Get out of my positive movie experience. I liked a sci-fi movie. I liked a movie with aliens. And I bring it up all the time.

And I talk about what it meant to me. Can you just accept it and not palindrome it into whatever? All I'm saying is that Christopher Nolan owes Denis Villeneuve some money. He does. That's fine. My number five is a movie called Primal Fear. Boy, Primal Fear, what a fun time. This was right at the

absolute fever pitch of holy shit, who is this Edward Norton guy? Edward Norton plays a boy who is I believe living and working in a church kind of rectory circumstance. He's a person who had a difficult upbringing and has been accused

of murdering a priest. Who is there to defend him? Hot shot attorney Richard Gere. This is also Richard Gere in the prime of his Richard Gere-dom. True silver fox in this movie. Extraordinary supporting cast in this movie, Francis McDormand, Andre Brouwer, Laura Linney,

everybody at the peak of their powers doing crime thriller stuff. The character that Edward Norton plays is named Aaron Stampler. He seems like a very innocent boy from Kentucky and it's baffling as to how he could have committed such a heinous crime. And we learned throughout the film

that he may be struggling with a dissociative personality disorder of some kind. Francis McDormand plays a psychiatrist who interviews him throughout the film. And then the film has a shocking turn after the conclusion of the trial. And I was 14 when this movie came out. And I remember my reaction was, I did not know you could do that. Now, obviously, this movie is riffing on a lot of other movies that came before it. It's not the first time there's ever been a, oh, who is the true killer? And what is the nature of multiple personalities? Obviously, this is a movie that has a movie like Psycho in the back of its mind, of course, which is kind of the granddaddy, I think, of this kind of a twist ending.

But Norton was such an absolute prodigy. And it was so exciting to see him. And this is also around the time of some of the great twisty 90s movies. This became kind of a thing, I think around the same time that the sort of Tarantino generation of filmmakers came along. A lot of that like shocking ending or moment with 30 minutes to go that you didn't see coming. The Usual Suspects, probably the most famous version of this, the sort of verbal Kint Kaiser Soze reveal with Kevin Spacey's character, the limp

disappearing. But I always preferred Primal Fear. I always thought this was the one that was the best fusion of story and performance. And even though it's kind of like a junkie throwaway 90s thriller movie, I felt like this was the movie that really set up Norton for 25 years

of greatness. And I believe he was Oscar nominated for this part, which is unusual for someone who's so young. He was pretty fresh out of Yale Theater Drama School with this performance. So just love this movie. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. You love a courtroom drama, as do I.

Sure do. I do also like the... This has a couple of things I like, because even though it is sort of like the personality you know disorder thing that's baked into the whole movie of who's telling the truth and and and what is reliability and what is guilt and what is innocence i do also just really like the legal thrillers where you think the person is innocent the whole time and then surprise they're not that's it's just like a very good one or it's

someone else who you didn't expect it's that's always a good one what's your number four uh my number four is get out which i mean it is an instant classic all-time twist and i the the the moment that i've identified is when rose um the allison williams character declines to give him the keys. Where are those keys, Rose? You know I can't give you the keys, right, babe? And kind of everything that he has suspected and felt like slightly paranoid about, but also not paranoid because things are very weird. And all of this sort of the casual like the casual or the incidental racism

becomes like really crystallized and all of the subtext becomes like really aggressive meta text, not meta text, but just text. And the way they shoot it and that Alison Williams is like having a good time, possibly too good of a time in that particular moment, but it is really chilling. And it was that moment in theaters of just like the gasp, you know, and you can't,

there's nothing like that when a movie really lands flat because you're totally invested. It's a great one. It's also a movie that has five or six twists, which is part of what makes Get Out so fun. You know, obviously it's this brilliant analysis of racial relationships, but it's also just pure fun, carpenter-esque thriller with tons of twists and turns. But you're right. That is definitely the one. If I had to choose one, I would pick that one. My number four is your number three. So let's just talk about it.

Parasite. There's a man in the basement! So there are other twists in this movie as well. You know, I think the reveal of the scams, the return of the family late at night after they've been kind of the the the the the protagonists have been camped out in the park's home and kind of chewing on all their snacks. Oh, right. Yeah. But the real twist, I think, is the man in the basement and then what becomes of the man in the basement. And it's one of those great twists where it's both a thrilling storytelling device and an idea at the same time. It's an active metaphor that also pushes the story forward, which is very hard to do.

A lot of times when you're trying to sell an idea, it feels like it stops the movie in its tracks. This is the opposite. This is a movie that sets the movie off into a kind of frenzy. And, um, it's, it's, I don't know if I've ever seen anything like it.

It's genuinely, uh, genuinely original story. And a lot of these other films that we'll talk about are very iterative and parasite is not that iterative. It's inspired, inspired by Hitchcock. You know,

it's inspired by De Palma. It's inspired by maybe, um, Fincher or a few others, but it is totally unto itself in a way. So what do you like about it? Yeah, I mean, it's the fulcrum of the movie, right? It's when, and things are already, quote,

not what they seem, or people have a lot of different motivations and you're kind of understanding all of these different agendas together, but it literalizes a lot of what's going on and introduces like a new lurking element that, you know, could also be kind of the one sentence summary of the whole movie and what it's about on a, on a literal plot level, but also a thematic level. And I just, again, I, you don't see it coming or I didn't

and it changes everything that comes afterward but also makes a ton of sense like when you go back you see that they've been laying the groundwork and so it is both thrilling and makes sense

within the context of the movie it's not out of nowhere Parasite what a wonderful movie yeah really good stuff I'll do my number three my number three is speaking of Gillian Flynn Gone Girl of the movie. It's not out of nowhere. Parasite. What a wonderful movie. Yeah. Really good stuff. I'll do my number three. My number three is speaking of Gillian Flynn, Gone Girl. Yeah. Now you read this book and you read it before you saw the movie, so you couldn't do it. No. I did not read the book. And let me tell you. Smart.

Very exciting. Very exciting to see Amy is alive and that she framed Nick. Technically missing. Soon to be presumed dead. Gone. And my lazy, lying, cheating, oblivious husband will go to prison for my murder. About an hour in this movie. Again, not something that I saw coming. Obviously, it completely turns the movie on its head.

And it's another movie that I think is just greatly helped by pitch-perfect performances. A lot of times, a movie can have a twist and even if the twist is clever, if the rest of the movie is a little bit weak or a little bit

more amateurish, then it doesn't really matter. You remember the twist, but you don't think much of it. In this case, this is another movie that much like Parasite, much like Primal Fear, I was deep inside of the first time I watched it. I'm watching so many movies now. And Amanda, we talked about this with Sam last week. So many movies are just kind of not holding my attention.

And you're like, God, why is this so dull? I have vivid memory of almost every movie, of every movie on this list, first time seeing it, just feeling like absolutely locked in and Gone Girl, maybe more than any other film. And I saw it with a bunch of friends, including, I believe, Chris and his wife, Phoebe,

and Phoebe had read the book as well. And she was really ready to kind of analyze how they handled the adaptation. And I was not in that place at all. Yeah. I think I did go like, you know, to that effect when, when the reveal happens, it was very exciting. So what about when you saw it for the first time, did you feel like they handled it? Well, I know there was

some criticism of like the cool girl speech and the way that that character was positioned in the film. I don't know if, did it pay off for you? Well, listen, I really enjoy Gone Girl and I think it probably has, I enjoy it more the further, the more times I see it because that first experience, if you know the twist, no, it's not as exciting.

And I think the other thing is that Gone Girl is written from the Amy character's perspective and is more like a psychological thriller in the sense of you're trying to figure out what's going on with this like really wacky person whose mind you're in and when it twists you're like oh my god and there is something about I think Rosamund Pike's performance is just different than the way that I read the book and it is more distant you're not in her mind in the same way and so it was just a different twist and it wasn't as completely exciting as reading the book was but then when you watch it as a movie about ben affleck it's just

it's perfect so um i don't like i don't think my reaction is fair. And I think, again, just knowing what's coming ruins everything. It's not as fun as the first time you see these things or the first time you learn the twist. That's the beauty of it. I do see this movie as part of the lineage of the Fincher twist, too. The Fincher twist, Seven, Fight Club, The Game. He made it a habit, frankly, in his first few films to insert a kind of strategy like this, where you would be shocked by the revelation in the final 30 minutes. This kind of changes the timeline a little bit in terms of the revelation, still incredibly effective. What's your number two? I see dead people.

I see dead people. And my top one, Here we are. This rocked my mind. I was 15 years old. I saw this in theaters. I had no idea. And I'm just going to say it. If you haven't seen The Sixth Sense, hit whatever, because I'm absolutely going to ruin the whole thing for you. Bruce Willis is dead. He's dead.

And I had no idea. Even though when you watch it, knowing the twist, it's all right there. How they do it is like, it's not the most complicated. Like it actually, did you know, did like, did smart adults know before the twist? I think I've, I think I've told this on a podcast before, but I'm going to share it again. I didn't see this movie immediately when it came out. And there was a segment on the daily show in which a car, a correspondent reviewed movies and talked about movies and talked about the Oscar race and things like that. And the character,

the figure on daily show, I'm not going to use this person's name, spoiled the movie on television, literally explained the Bruce Willis character, literally did the whole, I see dead people thing and ruined the movie. And I think that other people also saw this and were like, how can you do this? This is an act of cruelty for people who love movies. So much like you went into Gone Girl knowing where the story was going, I went into The Sixth Sense for the first

time knowing where it was going. Should I have seen the movie on opening night as a 16-year-old? Sure. Yes, probably. Did I? I didn't, you know, I was busy. I was busy getting into trouble, meeting my wife. You know what I mean? I mean, that's great. And that's good. And that's, that's congratulations to you on all of those things. This is another thing where I, at least, but I think we as a society, like didn't know, like that M night Shyamalan meant your mind is about to be totally messed up and there is some twist in this after the sixth sense everyone knew this and like and you just knew if you were going to one of his films that things were not going to be what they seemed and you

were waiting for some twist and inevitably they don't live up to the to the first twist but this is a pretty good twist and they do do the thing I love at the end when once he realizes that he's dead, you go back and you realize that he never talks to anyone, that they're just kind of sitting next to each other. It's fun to rewatch knowing the twist. They're pretty clever with it. Great kid performance from Haley Joel Osment.

One of, I mean, and again, I see dead people as like just a one sentence encapsulation. Everyone knows what that is. Everyone knows what that means. That is, you know, in a lot of ways, with the exception of one film, which we are going to discuss like shorthand for there's a movie twist. It's really good stuff. And again, I just can't tell you how stunned I was as a teenager. I have liked most of his twists.

I especially like the village. I did predict the village about five minutes into the village, but I also felt like a huge payoff when it happened. You know, that's the other... That's the flip side of this conversation. It's like, when you call it, the sense of like gratitude... That's some new shit. No, that's you.

And that's like... I guess so, but... And I agree. I definitely am trying to solve Mare of Easttown, like on a text chain with our friends. We've got some great theories. Why am I not on this chain? What's going on here? I'll add you. I can add you. It's pretty good. Jesus Christ. I'm never on these chains. Yeah, I know. Um, it's because you never respond. But like, but so I, you know, I can do like, and it's always sunny board with the best of them.

I'm not above it, but it's like not nearly as fun as when you have no idea. And I'm surprised it's just, it's not. And, and at some extent I'm kind of like hesitant to always put on the hat and do the guessing game. Cause I'm like, I'm going to ruin this for myself. And I actually don't want to overthink this. I just want to let someone completely surprise me. But I am glad that you got some satisfaction in terms of guessing a movie and spoiling your own entertainment. Well, it's just the same because you don't know for sure until you get

it. And then there is, well, let's move on. Yeah, but it's way better when something just randomly explodes and you're like, oh my God, why did that happen? So, okay, I'll give you a corollary to that with my number two. Now, Planet of the Apes, the original Planet of the Apes is my number two. Now, this is a kind of honorarium because I definitely knew the ending of Planet of the Apes before I saw the original. Obviously, it was released, you know released 15 years before I was born. And there is a very famous episode of The Simpsons in which this film is kind of adapted as a musical in Springfield on the show and kind of parodied in a very funny way. It's one of the great episodes of The Simpsons of

all time. And in that episode, they basically reveal the Statue of Liberty and the, you know, you bastards, you know the the sort of the sense that this is actually Earth and that the Charlton Heston character has time traveled. He is not actually on another planet. And it's it seems a bit over the top and ridiculous now because it has become such a part of the cultural lexicon. But to watch it play out one, the first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe how good the movie was. I actually thought the movie was way better than I expected. I thought it was going to be this kitschy artifact of late 60s paranoia. And in fact, I thought it was brilliantly made. Two, sometimes it's not just

the twist surprising you, it's it actually paying off. It's it actually feeling like earned, even if you have an awareness of it. And this is a story, and of course, the script is written by Rod Serling, the master of the twist, the creator of The Twilight Zone. And it's a movie that still really works. Now, obviously, Planet of the Apes has become almost this like parodic piece of popular culture because it's been remade so many times.

And, you know, it's been so iterated upon. There was the first five movies in the original. And then Tim Burton's absolutely abysmal remake. And then the more recent films that have been quite good. So it has this odd sense of like ip in our movie understanding with the original it's still really really good and a couple of the 70s ones are really good too i would highly recommend people check out conquest of the planet

of the apes that's a good one but yeah this is a this is a great one and it's like a time when it felt like you could make a statement in a movie like this that is an otherwise very silly kind of science fiction fantasy movie that also kind of had a point, which is like, take care of the world that you're living in. We share a number one. And I frankly, I'm surprised that we do. Well, but there's only one. And again, like part of my mission on this is like, don't overthink it. Like, don't actually spend too much time trying to be clever and you know doing all your threads like at some point doing all your threads like i don't

i don't know people spend too much time on threads but like at the end of the day the the simplicity of and the surprise of these twists is like what makes them work and there's absolutely like the number one all time is luke i am your father even though that's not actually the actual quote uh but but that is the shorthand um from the empire strikes back yes the oft misquoted no i am your father that's the line reading from james old j No. I am your father. I think anybody who was born between 1960 and 2021 could say if they were shown this movie at the right age,

that reveal. And also, there's another part of this too, which is how do the characters react? And Luke's reaction to Darth Vader is one of those things that's just burned into my memory. He's clutching onto that power beam and the wind is blowing in that and he screams at the top of his lungs, no. And when you're five years old or seven years old and you see a movie like that for the first time true stakes these are true movie stakes right and it is also that this person is not who you think they are is one of the classic twists and also you know like surprise family reveal also one of

like the great like movie twists and also something that everyone can relate to everyone has a father like everyone you know can so it's the like it's the twist right i mean and it's not because obviously psycho comes before it and there are like many other movies but in terms of our pop cultural understanding of what it means to just be like oh my god it's it's empire strikes back i agree with you it feels like it's riffing on hitchcock stuff it feels like it's riffing on chinatown it feels like it's riffing on a few other movies before it, but it also is because it's in this science fiction world, this adventure world. Movies like that were not necessarily twist dependent historically. And obviously Star Wars is immensely influenced by a whole range of

different kinds of stories, which is part of what has made it such a lasting piece of pop culture entertainment. Quick, honorable mentions. I'm glad you brought up Chinatown because I did use this as an excuse to rewatch Chinatown, which for me is, by the way, a tremendous film. And also, I texted Chris because Jack Nicholson does put on khakis after sex in the scene and then chases it.

But because he has to- He does not eat a turkey sandwich though. But he doesn't get back into bed, which I didn't realize were like the specific specific chris ryan qualifications he he puts on the khakis because he has to go chase fade down away and so that is normal khakis after sex behavior apparently um but i would classify you know the the scene as more of a reveal than a twist and part of it is just because it's like it's a real bummer like there's just like no way to feel about that you feel a lot of things and it is really horrifying but it's not a twist but it is also it's not that you were led to lead to believe

one thing about fay dunaway and, or I can't remember the characters, the sister slash daughter's name. Um, but, and then you were told another, it's just kind of like the rot sort of becoming apparent over time. So I ultimately didn't put it on. It's the,

it's like a recognition of evil, right? It's not so much a, a thrilling and exciting revelation about who a killer is. It's the summation of this sense of like doom coursing throughout this city, this family, this history, the story. And that's true of a lot of noir detective movies. We don't have a lot of detective movies on our list because those reveals are very different. You know, there are reveals at the end of Laura, for example,

but that's not really why you watch the movie per se. You watch the movie for the atmosphere, for the sense of danger and the excitement and the craft. Interesting that there are not really any horror movies on our list. I guess Get Out and Parasite are kind of sort of horror-esque. But like Friday the 13th, I will say, the first time you saw Friday the 13th and it was revealed that Mrs. Voorhees has been killing the kids because of what they did to her son. Pretty mind-blowing. One of those twists that I think people kind of forget. They just assume that Jason was the killer. and there's something very powerful about that.

Kind of the inverse of the Halloween killer who is just like, just an entity. It's somebody who grew up and just became a killing machine and there's not really much explanation there. And then I thought of movies like The Mist and Old Boy

and we talked about Psycho quite a bit. What else? Anything else you want to shout out? Presumed Innocent. Great one. In the vein of legal thrillers. And No Way Out. Which I feel bad even saying No Way Out because I've already spoiled it.

But if you haven't seen No Way Out, it's a pretty good twist. No Way Out, the Kevin Costner, Sean Young film. Yes. Great movie. I mean, the twist isner, Sean Young film. Yeah. Yes. Great movie. I mean, the twist is like the only reason to watch that movie. Really.

I mean, I guess like Kevin Costner and his prime is also pretty fun. Costner and Sean Young looking hot as hell. That's true. Yeah. Some good stuff there. Um, okay.

That's been our top five favorite movie twists. Thank you to today's producer, Sasha Ashel for her work on this episode. Later this week on the big picture, Chris Ryan, Adam Naiman, and I will explore the undead. We'll be talking about our old friend Zack Snyder's new Netflix movie, The Army of the Dead, and our favorite zombie movies ever. See you then. you