The Big Picture - Top Five Rock Movies, Plus Elisabeth Moss and Alex Ross Perry on ‘Her Smell’ | Interview

Episode Date: April 11, 2019

We go over some of the most iconic rock star movies ever made and review the recent slew of films in that vein—including ‘Bohemian Rhapsody,’ ‘A Star Is Born,’ ‘Vox Lux,’ and more (1:30). Then, Elisabeth Moss and Alex Ross Perry join the show to talk ‘Her Smell,’ their recent installment in the trend (31:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Lindsay Zoladz, Elisabeth Moss, Alex Ross Perry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Season 8 of Game of Thrones begins this Sunday, which means Binge Mode Game of Thrones makes its long-awaited return, with your resident experts Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion guiding you through each episode. And to get your fix every Sunday night, Chris Ryan joins Mallory and Jason on Talk the Thrones, a Twitter aftershow recapping each episode throughout the season. So make sure you check out the Binge Mode podcast on Apple or Spotify, Talk the Thrones, a Twitter after show recapping each episode throughout the season. So make sure you check out the Binge Mode podcast on Apple or Spotify, Talk the Thrones on Twitter,

and for even more Thrones coverage, you can head to TheRinger.com. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers and would-be rock stars in the world. I'm joined today by a few guests. In the second half of the show, I will be chatting with Elizabeth Moss, the very famous and accomplished and brilliant actress,

and the director, Alex Ross-Perry. They have collaborated on a new film called Her Smell, which is about a fictional rock star named Becky something who exists in that kind of Courtney Love-esque mid to late 90s era of rock and roll. It's a fascinating, deep, complicated, emotionally troubling film that I would highly recommend. But first, we're going to talk about other rock star films. I'm joined today by my ringer colleague and really one of the best writers about rock stars in the world, Lindsay Zolot. Hey, Lindsay. Hey, how's it going? I'm doing really well. Thank you for joining me.

You know, Lindsay, right before we started taping this show, we were talking about what makes a kind of rock star movie successful. And, you know, there are two different kinds of movies like this. Her Smell falls into the completely fictionalized but inspired by category, where the characters in it exist in a realm that seems familiar but isn't real. Becky, something seems like Courtney Love, but she is not Courtney Love. And then, of course, there's the Bohemian Rhapsody-esque biopic version that attempts to tell the truth and often is more false

than the movie that is completely fictionalized. For you, which makes a successful rock star movie, and which of those two do you prefer? I tend to prefer the ones that are creating this whole other world that doesn't exactly exist in the actual pop music universe. So the non-biopic ones, which are these movies that have come out in the past year that all kind of fall into that category. Pretty much all are those sorts of movies.

But those tend to be my favorites. Yeah. Why do you think so? Right now we're in this moment, and you're writing a piece about this on the site this week, where Teen Spirit is being released this week. It's Max Mingala's story of a pop star played by Elle Fanning. Of course, A Star Is Born, last October.

Her Smell. Vox Lux, Brady Corbett's portrait of a pop star in the aftermath of 9-11 starring Natalie Portman. You know, the aforementioned Bohemian Rhapsody. Why are all of these movies happening right now, do you think? I really don't know. I mean, one really interesting parallel that I pointed out to you earlier is that each of those movies, I guess with the exception of Her Smell, sort of,

are directed by male actors, like people that we primarily identify as actors before directors. So that's just interesting to me in general of people, like they seem to be wanting to say something about performance and stardom, but through the proxy of generally a younger or more famous woman. And that's just a very strange parallel that I'm not sure what's going on there. But I think there's a sense right now with social media that sort of anyone can become a pop star. I mean, to cross over into the music field, we got Lil Nas X right now, who this viral star who just has the number one song

in America, Overnight Sensation, because he was able to use social media into becoming famous. So I think there's this sense right now that pop stardom is easier to achieve and that if you have a certain idea or machinery behind you that you can just snap your fingers and become a pop star. I do not think it's that easy. And that's the issue I have with some of these movies and the way that they conceive of 21st century pop cultural stardom. But I do think there's that sense that if anyone can become a pop star on the internet,

then so can Natalie Portman, or we can imagine her in that role, or Elle Fanning or something like that. There's this almost anyone can do it notion in the air right now that I think is contributing something to this. Yeah, we're going to talk about some of our favorite versions of these kinds of movies. I think we should say that for the most part, the biopic more so than the original story tends to be more successful. And the massive success of Bohemian Rhapsody, which is, I would say, an abnormality, but also indicative of kind of where music movies may be going, I think sets aside the fact that there's something kind of dull and bland and Oscarized about the biopic.

And the original story, I feel like, creates a whole new world of creation for us. You know, what are some of your favorites from that genre? I mean, I have a very long list. Let's talk about a couple. Yeah, the first one, well, I kind of was thinking in terms of these movies that have come out recently, almost each of them, I sort of had in mind, oh, I like X movie from the past better. And in thinking of Vox Lux, I was comparing it a lot to Todd Haynes' Velvet Goldmine. Baby's on fire. Better throw her in the water. Which I think is a far superior movie about sort of glam rock

and the glitziness of performance and music than Vox Lux is, which I am not a fan of Vox Lux, I should say. It has been a very divisive film. Yes, and I am on the one end of the spectrum. But Velvet Goldmine is sort of loosely based on David Bowie and Mark Bolan and kind of the glam rock resurgence or the initial flourishings of glam rock

in the early 70s. But it's starring Christian Bale, Jonathan Rhys-Myers, and Ewan McGregor plays like an Iggy Pop person, which is incredible casting anyway. But it's really, rather than telling the story of David Bowie or a star that you know, it's sort of about fandom. And it's really a meditation on what it means to connect to a performer, to be a fan of a certain type of music. And through the Ewan McGregor character, you sort of get that he becomes, in a sense, the star of the movie. So in a sense, the fan and the person sort of making meaning through being a fan of this music becomes the star of the movie. But you also get to see Ewan McGregor performing like a really glorious lip-synced rendition of, I think, a Brian Eno song. And so it's campy and fun, but it has a lot to say about fandom, which I think is something that these movies were missing for me. So much of a good rock star or pop star movie for me

is about the relationship between the fan and the audience. And I feel like a lot of these newer movies are more about just the star themselves. Yeah, I would say that that is also the strength of Almost Famous. The evening is over. We hope you all enjoyed yourselves and we'll see you all again in 1974.

Good evening! Blue jean baby You know, Almost Famous kind of falls in a very similar stratum where it is sort of about Fever Dog, you know, an ostensible Led Zeppelin Allman Brothers hybrid, but it is sort of about Fever Dog, you know, an ostensible like Led Zeppelin, Allman Brothers hybrid. But it's really about William and a journalist who is also

sort of a fan masquerading as a journalist at a very young age in some ways and really idolizing someone and trying to figure out why he idolizes an artist like this and comes to learn some unfortunate things about the artist, but also finds ways to forgive them and I don't know it creates like a unique kind of empathy without losing the raw excitement

of a rock and roll performance you know I tend to like movies like that too in this vein like I really like Inside Llewyn Davis even though I wouldn't say that's a purely like

rock and roll kind of movie it's much more about the construction of a rock star and you know sort of like the slow build and the myriad failures that come along with this sort of thing, as opposed to, you know, even Purple Rain, I think,

does that. It shows a kind of a build and a crisis point, and it's not just a pure glory story. What are some other ones that you like? Well, I do think Purple Rain fits in this category because it's technically not about Prince. Like it is, obviously, but he takes on this other persona. And is kind of playing on his actual identity as Prince. So I think in talking about like, is it a biopic? Is it this imagined universe? I think that's something that's really compelling about Purple Rain is it's him presenting himself as the kid or whatever his name is in that, which is so obviously Prince.

But, you know, I think I like movies that play around with that space between the world of the movie and then the obvious world that it's referencing outside. And I think That Thing You Do is a timeless one. Yeah, that's a great one. It's category two. And just one of those movies that I'm going to watch anytime it's on cable, like no matter what, no matter where it is in the movie. And I think that's another key to this too is the music has to be good. Like the songs in that thing you do are actual good songs, even though they're originals. I think the guy from Fountains of Wayne, I think did

at least the title track for that movie. So that's part of it is that you need some sort of compelling argument that this actually was a hit song in this fake universe that is created. But that's kind of the ultimate, you know, rise and fall of the teen idol story for me. And just really kind of has that momentum that you get caught up in their story and has that kind of pathos to it too because there is the fall at the end and they don't really, it's not a story of longevity, but it's such a, there's so many kind of semi-anonymous one hit wonder bands that you can map that story onto and it's just endlessly watchable and really fun. I'm sure that there are plenty of people in the world who think that that thing you do

is based on a true story. You know, that it seems so weirdly authentic. And the songs are, as you said, like so perfectly of the time. And there's like an anonymity around so many 50 stars that I'm sure that it's just feels completely credible to people if they're just catching it on TBS on a Saturday afternoon, right? Totally. Yeah.

Have you seen Phantom of the Paradise? I have. Yeah. I have been thinking about that movie a lot in relation to Vox Lux and Her Smell and even A Star is Born because it seemed to be sort of alarmingly ahead of its time in terms of interrogating the terrors of the music business. This is, this is Brian De Palma's, I guess, rock opera, musical horror comedy. Is that all of the genres? More or less, yeah. And it's a really fascinating movie that features a score and songs by Paul Williams,

who people may know as like a 1970s songwriter. He wrote The Rainbow Connection and Three Dog Nights and Old Fashioned Love Song and a bunch of other sort of 70s soft rock hits. But Phantom of the Paradise is a very strange, ghoulish, fantastical portrait of the music business. You know, it almost implies that it's overrun by demons. What is your perception of that movie related to these other ones? Well, that's an interesting one too, because, you know, I think Rocky Horror has to come up in this conversation, but Phantom of the Paradise was, I think, a couple years before Rocky Horror, even though it feels in that genre. So I think it was really ahead of its time and kind of the proto-rock opera, I guess, even if it's not quite that. But yeah, I think that there is this sense that you

can look at in a movie like Vox Lux, too, that there is this demonic force that is animating the industry and getting you to sign the dreaded contract and that there's this sort of morality play of good and evil. And I think that comes up a little bit in Teen Spirit. There's a sort of undercurrent of like, will she or won't she sign the contract? And we all know that within this rock music lore that that means like selling your soul or something. So I tend to find that narrative pretty silly

and outdated at this point. And I would only want to see it done in a really over-the-top way, as it is in The Phantom of the Paradise, where it's literally a demon trying to get them to, you know, and everything's sort of taken to these operatic extremes. But that, I think to make a movie in 2019 that is referencing all of this and existing in that kind of world, I need the take to be a little more complex than just like if you sign a record contract, you're signing your soul to the devil and everyone in the industry wants to corrupt you. And I find that story kind of boring at this point.

Is it important to you that these movies seem authentic to the experience of real rock stars or pop stars? It is. And again, I think the issues that I've had with some of the more recent ones is that they don't feel authentic to the industry as a whole. And kind of the music that actually does rise up as a hit. Like Vox Lux, just not to continue to pick on this movie, but Sia did the music for it and ended up writing the songs that Natalie Portman's character performs

and supposedly becomes famous on. But they sound like Sia songs, which to me is like I'm primarily a music critic. And I hear that as they're trying to kind of make a Sia song sound like it was the type of thing that was a hit in 2001. And pop music sounded really different in 2001 than it does right now. So I think there's just I and again, I'm an incredibly biased spectator here because I spend a lot of my time thinking critically about pop music. But I kind of need of that feels a little outdated or just kind of doesn't want to do the research or something like that.

Yeah, I feel like the movies, and I know you will agree about this, that tend to work best about these ideas are pure satire or spoof, you know? Like This Is Spinal Tap, of course, being the most historic example and still kind of holds up. I don't know if you've seen This Is Spinal Tap recently, but it's still incredibly effective. You know, this morning, as we were preparing to record this podcast, the movie Popstar, Never Stop, Never Stopping the Lonely Islands, spoof of a pop star, a created pop star, kind of reappeared in Internet life. And it felt fitting given all these

movies that are coming out. And the fact that, you know, pop star, which I believe premiered right when The Ringer launched and Alison Herman wrote about it, was just like, this movie is genius. And it was, it sort of failed. It didn't, nobody really saw it at the box office, but it has this strong cult life. You know, what do you make of the enduring legacy of pop star? I mean, I'm very much in the cult, so I support it getting any sort of second life that it can have. But I totally agree. I think as I was making a list of what I thought were my favorite rock movies, most of them are either so over the top that they're campy and kind of unintentionally funny in some ways, or are straight ahead satire and taking the kind of comedic route. And it's interesting because I think the problems that I had with

Vox Lux or even Teen Spirit, and at times the second half of A Star is Born, is just that these movies take themselves really, really seriously and think that the earnest critiques that they have of pop stardom and the music industry are these really deep moral quandaries. And I tend to just prefer, you know, the movies that are going to have a little fun with that and don't think it's this life and death situation and also can kind of blow up that spectacle to make it more about not always having a good time as a viewer, but just kind of understanding that spectacle and performance and enjoying that is part of what people go to music for anyway. So giving the viewer some of that and not just trying to make some kind of antagonizing drama

that really is like tough to sit through. You know, one sub-genre of these movies that I've always had a hard time with, I'm interested to know what you think of them, is the sort of inspired by the music of movie. So like Quadrophenia or Tommy or Pink Floyd, The Wall, you know, what is your relationship to those kinds of movies, which feel very weighted and 70s bound and I don't know, like self-serious in a way?

Yeah, I don't think that type of movie has aged that well. And it's hard to think of a modern correlation to that. But in kind of thinking of the biopics too, I think part of why I do not love most rock biopics is there's a lot of really good rock documentaries that kind of do that job. Like, I love The Kids Are Alright, the Who documentary that has all sorts of live performance and amazing live footage of them performing. And it's like, why would I watch Tommy in 2019 or, like, someone playing Keith Moon as a young man when I could just watch, you know, really awesome footage of The Who in their prime. So I think when you're making the biopic, you're also going up against the idea of a really well-told documentary that has that real footage and that real music too. Are there any biopics that you actually would recommend that you really love?

I mean, I do love Walk the Line that comes to mind first off and I think that's just the performances are so strong and that elevates that above you know what it could have been what else what about you

I think they always tend to be side door movies you know like I love 24 hour party people which is kind of sort of a biopic about a record executive, which lets you get close to artists, but isn't necessarily about the artist. You know, it's complicated. You know, I think a movie like Control is a beautiful film. I'm not sure if it's the film I want to see about Joy Division.

You know, it's like film I want to see about Joy Division. You know, it's like a deeply dark and depressing movie. It's an interesting movie about the origin of a creative person, but I don't think of it weirdly in the same category as something like Walk the Line or Bohemian Rhapsody or, I don't know, Great Balls of Fire or Ray. You know, there's two different treatments, right? There's something that feels very purposefully artistic and maybe even a little bit difficult. And then there's the one that's like, let's all go to the theater for a concert. And, you know, I feel like, I don't know.

I'm curious what you think about this because I feel like Bohemian Rhapsody and then Rocketman, which is coming out in May, the Elton John movie, is going to portend a series of films like this where we all get in the theater together, and we try to create an event out of an artist's life. And do you see that coming? Is there anybody that you feel like is ripe for that too? I think I do see it coming. And I'm glad we're bringing it up because I think a key part of the success of Bohemian Rhapsody was, you've said this before, it's just really fun to hear those songs really loud in a theater with other people. And in some ways becomes almost this stand in for a concert.

Like when I went, the guy sitting next to me was like actually singing a little bit, and I did want him to stop. I was not enjoying that experience. That's not okay. No, so don't do that at a biopic or any other movie, just never sing. But there was a sense, and I think it has something to do with the fact that the way that we listen to music for the most part now is quite isolated. We're walking around with our earbuds or in our headphones all the time. And there was something kind of cool, even as someone who sees live music quite a bit, about the communal experience of just being in a big theater

with a great sound system and hearing those songs really loud. It did feel like this almost throwback communal experience. And another movie that I saw recently that kind of had a similar effect of a very different, was Gaspar Noé's Climax. His sort of electronic dance music, bleak, dystopian, hard, freak out thing. Were you singing along to that one as well? I was not. And I also was not really a huge fan of that movie.

But I saw it in a theater with an incredible sound system. It has an amazing soundtrack that is pretty much mixed like just a DJ mix. And it was a really cool auditory experience. Visually and cinematically, not always as much for me, but it kind of got me thinking of, you know, movies that you see to just be sort of pummeled by the loud music in a theater and how I do think the desire to have that experience is coming from, again, the fact that we're often really isolated now when we listen to music and it's kind of cool to have that experience in public with other people and just kind of have a mass cinematic concert. Yeah, I've got to say, Lindsay, the older I get, the less interested I am in standing for four hours at a concert.

And so there is something just sort of physically appealing as I approach my 40s about being able to sit and listen. You know, I tend when I look for concerts, I tend to look for seats now, which is really revealing perhaps too much about my broken down body. But I think that there is like a similar feeling too, that there's like an ease and yet an excitement. Like you still get to sit at the edge of your seat and be excited to hear you're my best friend or whatever Queen song that you love. You know, I feel like there are other kinds of rock movies that we're not talking about that exist in like a sort of a netherworld here. You know, there's like American Graffiti.

One, two, three o'clock, four o'clock rock. And A Hard Day's Night. It's been a hard day's night. And Rock and Roll High School. Rock, rock, rock, rock, rock and roll high school. You know, we're like...

Love that one. You know, me too. Let's talk about Rock and Roll High School. You know, that're like... Love that one. You know, me too. Let's talk about Rock and Roll High School. You know, that's the Ramones story, I guess, told through a rebellious high school that is attempting to upend the power structure inside of its school. What do you like about that movie?

I mean, everything. It's really campy and ridiculous and over the top and fun to watch. And also, you get to see Joey Ramone try to act, which is beautiful. But it has, you know, I think a movie that's going to be about a certain type of music has to capture some sort of spirit. And of course, when you listen to the Ramones, you want to just flip off your teachers and kind of have this like youthful rebellion. And I think the movie really operates on that level of intellect. And it works because it really echoes something in the music and the way you feel listening to The Ramones. And I think that definitely falls in the camp category too, of like, that is

not a movie that's taking itself seriously at all, but that's why it's fun to watch it, you know, 30 years later or whatever. And yeah. I want to send a little, a raven in the Game of Thrones parlance about this movie that I saw at CinemaCon recently called Wild Rose. Are you familiar with this movie? I'm not. So it stars Jessie Buckley, who's an Irish actress who is playing a young Scottish woman who aspires to be a country star. And she's kind of a ne'er-do-well. She's got two young kids and she's just gotten out of jail and she's trying to figure out her life. And she's also trying to figure out how to get to Nashville. And this is like a similar movie in the spirit of the movies that we're talking about, where it's, you know, about a single artist's attempt to rise above and achieve the artistic dreams that they've had since they were a kid.

I thought it was very, very effective. And it is the songs are are absolutely wonderful. So I just want to I just want to earmark that for people, literally earmark it and have them go and get it. Do you want to make one more recommendation here before we wrap up for a rock movie? I do. And I think this will be a good transition into Her Smell. But I'm a huge fan of Ladies and Gentlemen, The Fabulous Stains, which is a sort of cult, I think, 1983 movie starring teenage Diane Lane and Laura Dern. Who as these moody

teen girls that start a punk band basically. And it's one of those movies that you watch in 2019 and you're like, how was this made in the early 80s? It's so sort of prescient for the whole Riot Grrrl scene and did, in fact, I think Kathleen Hanna and Toby Vale of Bikini Kill watched this when they first met and were teenagers

and were like, let's start a band. It was kind of that inspiring to this seed of music. So I love that movie. I thought of it a bit, watching Her Smell feels like it exists in that whole world. But I think it's also a cool example of a time when a movie like that can actually inspire people to start a band or to kind of make music. It's not by no means is it a great movie in a formal sense. It's kind of campy again and just a little bit outrageous, but it has had this impact on certain aesthetics that came after it, certain fashions. And it's also really fun to look back

and see just like Diane Lane fronting a Riot Grrrl band when she was 15 in a movie. So I think it, I love that one. That's one I always return to because it just has, again, kind of the spirit of the music that it is about. And it's another one that's about fandom and kind of the power of that connection between listener and fan. So that's what I'm always going to recommend. That is a great segue because Alex Perry, in fact, suggested that he was inspired by, ladies and gentlemen, the fabulous stains when we had our conversation. So Lindsay, thank you very much.

Really appreciate you setting us up so perfectly. I couldn't have done it better if I tried. Thanks, Lindsay. Thanks again to Lindsay Zoladz. Before we get to my conversation with Elizabeth Moss and Alex Ross-Perry, let's hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Philo. Say goodbye to expensive TV bills and horrible customer service with Philo. Philo is the new way to watch all the TV you love. It's the cheapest way to discover over 50 of your favorite channels like Discovery, AMC, VH1, Nickelodeon, The History Channel. Catch the biggest shows on TV like The Walking Dead, SpongeBob, and Paw Patrol for the kids, plus tons

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just a phone number. Philo is available on Roku, iOS, Fire TV, Android TV, and Apple TV. So to start your free trial, visit philo.tv slash big picture. That's P-H-I-L-O dot TV backslash big picture. Today's episode of The Big Picture is also brought to you by the film Dogman. Cinema made in Italy and Magnolia Pictures presents Dogman, the new film from the award-winning director of Gamora.

It's the winner of the Best Actor Award at the 2018 Cannes Film Festival and the European Film Awards. Dogman tells a story of vengeance where only the strong will survive. Marcello is a slight, mild-mannered man who divides his days between working at his modest dog-grooming salon and being coerced into the petty criminal schemes by the local bully Simoncino, an ex-boxer who terrorizes the neighborhood. When Simoncino's abuse finally brings Marcello to a breaking point, he decides to stand up for his own dignity through an act of vengeance with unintended consequences. An official selection of the Can Tell You Right in Toronto Film Festivals and the winner of nine David DiNatello Awards, the Italian Oscars, including

Best Picture, Director, Screenplay, and Actor, The Guardian calls Dogman a movie with an incomparable bite and strength. Dogman opens Friday, April 12th in New York and Los Angeles. Man, I'm so delighted to be joined by Elizabeth Moss and returning guest Alex Ross-Perry. Thank you guys for joining me. Thank you for having us. Very happy. I feel like in my time listening to the show,

there have been very few returning guests. That's true. Although we did one earlier this morning, but I won't spoil that. Great. So I love Her Smell, which is your new film, Alex, obviously. And this is your third film together, guys.

And I'm curious if you knew after the first time you worked together that there would be this kind of ongoing creative partnership. No, I don't think. I mean, I think that the first time we worked together, it was only actually two weeks. So I think there was sort of like we really liked it. We clicked in a way that I think surprised us both. And it was a really fun and challenging experience.

And it was like, oh, shit, well, I'd like to do more of that. Like, there was only two weeks. So then we did another film for two weeks. And then we decided to see if we could work together for longer than two weeks. So we did Her Smell. This feels like longer than a two-week shoot. Yeah, it was four. Yeah, we doubled it.

That's fast. When we got to the third week, there was like a moment of looking at each other and being like longer than a two-week shoot. Yeah, it was four. Yeah, we doubled it. That's fast. When we got to the third week, there was like a moment of looking at each other and being like, here we go. Great unknown. Can we do this? Was there anything different? Will it all fall apart? No, it's exactly the same. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. Alex, where did this movie come from for you? Well, around the time that we finished Queen of Earth, but between it premiering and it coming out so somewhere in that summer of 2015 i i texted lizzie um next movie idea you rock star mother addict and that was kind of just a bolt of inspiration at that time of we were kind of promoting that movie and talking about how fun it had been to work together again and how smooth so then this appeared, but there was no movie for her yet. But I just knew that was the character because, you know, the sort of progression from these three movies is a script that I don't know how to make that we get to cast with great actors, a script that I wrote hoping actors would want to come make it.

And then like a character I can give you without even having an idea of the story, the script, any other characters, and then we can build it from that. So the next time we'll have to find something even less to start from. Yeah. Elizabeth, what kind of relationship did you have to figures like this person? Say again, sorry. What relationship did you have to people like Becky? I don't know anyone like Becky, thank God.

No, I mean, yeah. I don't um what about musicians that are sort of archetypal like genius messes I mean I feel like with anything I try to approach it uh as a thing that stands on its own or something unique you know there were certain things that I watched or read everything from like the obvious Nirvana stuff to to Amy Winehouse to Marilyn Monroe. But for me, it was all on the page. What you see in the movie was on the page. There's no improv at all.

It's incredibly specific. Even when it sounds like it's just a nonsensical rant, if you don't say it word perfect, it actually really doesn't make any sense. So I did the character that Alex wrote. You know, it was all there on the page. It was just a matter of figuring out, okay, she's, you know, like this for this act, this for this. What is the trajectory? What is the arc of it? But it was, I played Becky something. Like, you know, I don't know if there is anyone like her.

When you send an actor, Alex, a short three-word description of what the next pitch for the movie is, are you thinking that you know essentially the whole shape of the movie at that time? Or are you just like, I think this would be a good idea for a movie? At that time, I knew nothing. So this is 2015. I don't think I knew a single other thing about the movie for maybe a year. And then at one point it was going to be like it was going to be like a really small movie that was just like maybe

me and one other person in like a hotel room do you remember that I don't remember that yeah like at one point there was an idea to just have it be and it was like super locked off shots basically like what we ended up doing in act four yeah it was more act four for the entire movie though and it was going to be like no no, I don't think so. This doesn't make a bell at all. And then it was like me holding the baby and being high. Oh, yeah, yeah. Do you remember that?

Vaguely. Yeah. And I thought that was a cool movie, and I said yes to that movie, and I was happy to make that. I vaguely remember. I don't know what the inspiration was. There was no script. That was just like an idea. And then I got this five-act play.

Yeah, once I locked in on like what the movie was, I tried to not really give you anything. Cause I was like, this is going to be a real surprise to send you a script where the first scene is 27 pages long. Yeah. But no, there's really nothing in place at that time.

Just a world that I wanted to do a movie in a culture groups of women. And then like one by one, it's, you know, no one's ever really made a movie about nineties and then like one by one it's you know no one's ever really made a movie about 90s alternative fans before that's not you know like a joke or you know airheads or something yeah and then it's you know no one's certainly done the movie about women in rock in this era and now there's another piece and then you know well what's a great way to do that so kind of a theatrical five-act structure. Certainly no one's done that. And then one by one over, you know, like a year and a half,

these other pieces came in and then, you know, the script was just kind of there eventually. What was your research? Was it just, let me channel the 90s things I was interested in? Yeah, my research was growing up at this time. Yeah. But for another project that I must have been writing around the time that I texted that,

it was something set in the 90s. So I was listening to a lot of this music for the first time in a while. And that was really important because I hadn't really given myself the time to enjoy this music in 15 years. And then, you know, something interesting to do, really the research was reading about music, which I've never done. To just read books about music because it's not something that's meant to be enjoyed by reading. And yet reading oral histories, the 33 and a third series was very important to me.

Just reading a hundred pages on an album, just reading about music because what you do, because you don't hear it. So when you're reading it, all you're getting is the narrative of the music you're not getting the the tones and the chords and the lyrics you're just getting the narrative of what it was to be making music and that's more important to me because i'm not making the definitive movie about musicianship it's just all the stuff that happens around that so reading these kind of books was was very was very interesting to read that much about music. Elizabeth, does musicianship come naturally to you? I don't know if it comes naturally to anybody.

I mean, I grew up with musicians, so I have a huge amount of respect for the amount of time and practice and the many years that go into it. So I spent about five months learning how to play, learning how to look like I was playing a very few amount of songs. I had no intention of being one of those actors who's like, I became a guitar player for this role. Like, no, I'm an actor. I'm not a musician. But I had to look like I could put my hands and fingers in the right places at the right time. So I accomplished that. And I learned how to play the piano song, but it's a very simple version of it. So I think music comes naturally in my family. I grew up a ballet dancer as well, and I can sing. But playing the guitar is incredibly, incredibly difficult. Yes, I can imagine.

It's incredible. You think it's difficult, but then if you try it, it's impossible. Yeah, that's how I feel. It's impossible. Especially as an adult. I feel like if you don't try it at 12, do you play the guitar, Alec? I can't play anything. I don't even understand music. On set, people would say, do you hear that this is flat? And I'd say, no, I can't. I don't know anything. So how do you, when you're writing a script that is full of songs, and you're also like creating a musical identity for characters how do you clarify what the songs should sound like if they're not there on the page when you like music yeah i mean that's just it it's just it's the same as you know the the films i've done that skirt around or engage with literature or fiction i don't know how to

create it i just know how to love it um but in the case of this film, there's a handful of the songs. Obviously, I'm not creating something that you're meant to have never heard before. Not only is this a genre of music that exists in all of our memories, but it's pretty recent. It's not like we're saying, oh, she wrote a symphony, so we have to create a symphony that sounds believable. But for that, it's like everything i mean the answer is it's the same as the character which i just turn over to the actors and say far be it for me to think i would know how to play this and then for the music i turned it over to songwriters and said i've come to you because i love your music and you are inspired by the the era that this film is about.

So write us something that feels like it belongs in that. So for the three originals that Something She plays, they're written by Alicia Boniano, whose band is Bully. Very, you know, beautiful 90s authentic sound. And then the Acre Girl song is written by Anika pile. Whose band is Katie Allen. Um, both women, I just kind of found by doing the research and they were both perfect for it. So it's just in the script. It said, here's an original song. It will roughly sound like this. And then I did the same thing to them that I would to an actor.

I said, so here's what's happening in the scene. Here's where we're at in the movie. Now go do your thing. Did you work with those artists at all on this movie? Uh, later in the movie now go do your thing did you work with those artists at all on this movie uh later in the game so they they would write the songs wrote them and then uh send them to alex or send them to me and i sort of would give any notes if i had any it was more about i think with maybe a couple of them it was like me trying to make sure that I was connected to the song. I don't even remember specifically what,

I don't think they were big notes at all. It was more just like, can I execute this? And then there was the execution. It was like one, one part was like, do I actually like the song? Can I connect to it? And then the other part was,

can I execute this practically at all? So it was a little twofold, but they didn't change that much or anything. Like it was pretty much what they but they didn't change that much or anything like it was pretty much what they delivered wasn't it wasn't that yeah it wasn't that far from we ended up doing it all as you know i like i like the first take of it yeah exactly um but yeah i mean they were eventually you know i feel like you got a lot of kind of tutorial videos of alicia playing the songs where you just look at her fingers and yeah look at look at what she was doing it was a

matter of me sort of going what do i need i need you to do this i need you to do that and then her doing it and sending it to me um and it was you know yeah videos uh sort of charts i worked with a teacher guitar teacher in toronto for like four months and he would kind of figure out what we needed we'd ask her for it and she'd send it so it was just this kind of process of like trial by fire sort of learning to put it together as we went along no one i mean there's no way to do this it was just kind of what do you need giving everyone asking for what you needed yeah and just you know even during the shoot saying you know hey like am i doing this yeah they were both both of these women were around a little bit yeah and keith polson yeah we had a you know someone on set who's in the movie is keith the engineer who's in all my movies

he's kind of like the the uh the guru of all these women playing because our band manager he would just jam and walk through it and just do simple things literally like for people who aren't musicians that like this is where you plug this in and put your finger here if you see natural yeah like if you're if you put if your fingers are here on this cord you're not going to look like you're playing that chord uh that kind of thing just like this very yeah just like really simple stuff and and but stuff that we needed you looked at alicia's uh hair i think when you were finalizing your hair for the movie yeah definitely i was like that's what i need for becky's hair to look like at some point. But yeah, it was very just kind of putting it together as needed. Even in the realm of your characters, Alex, Becky is very a challenging person who has challenges.

And this is a longer film for you. And I'm kind of interested to hear about what it was like to be with that character for a long period of time as an actor. For me, it doesn't feel long because i work usually in characters for like 10 years that's true so for me like a month is is too short um so it didn't feel long for me at all i mean i lived i lived with the character for like maybe you know a year and a half i guess it's well over a year from script to shooting so i'd live sort of a weird way like hadn't consciously thought about it till the few months before we started but I had sort of like lived with her in my brain in my world for so it felt like I had thought about it it was almost like subconsciously thinking about it for a year

and a half it's a really interesting way to go about it um so yeah for me I felt like once we hit the ground running which is just what we did we just went for it it already felt like I I knew her so well you know because I spent so much time just living with her in my general orbit one of the we had we had to not know I mean that had to be yeah it was so important in like the week before the shoot that no one really knew what this was going to be. I remember Alex and I talking and literally having conversations where we would be like, I don't know what this is going to be. And that was the weekend before the Monday of day one. I remember saying, I don't know.

I'm very excited to see what Becky is. I had never played her. We didn't have rehearsals, so I had never opened my mouth as the character. I had never said the lines out loud. So were you like scared on the first day of shoot? Did you know what you were going to do? I didn't have time to be scared. I mean, I think I didn't have time to be scared.

No, it's just, you put your head down and sort of you do the work, you know? And I think I was lucky in the fact that that we had started with act one um so i was able to start at the beginning uh so by the time i sort of got to the end of act one and act three i was like okay okay okay i know what i'm doing um but it was a very odd situation in that in that way of being like here's this crazy challenging character that the director and the actor have no idea what it's going to be. Did you guys shoot chronologically? Each one of the five acts was shot chronologically in and of itself.

Got it. But the five were not shot in order of what they are in the movie. Yeah. But every one started on page one of itself and ended at the end. And we shot like how many pages a day? Like, I don't know, 12-ish. I mean, you know, the acts were longer as written than they are as edited because there's two pages of Becky gibberish

that is 40 seconds in the movie. And for the most part, we did, for every act, we did one day of rehearsal and two days of shooting. Three. Three? Yeah. So we would break the act up into thirds. It's a blur.

But that was it. It had to be the chaos of like dealing with the size of Becky's character. I suppose there's a way to do that where it's six months or it's a play and you're doing a character like that every night. But for me, I was like the less of this we have, the better it will be. Like if we could shoot each act in one take,

I would do that because then you'd only have to just the less of time there is to think, the more immediate and chaotic this must feel. Yeah. So part of that was each one of the acts was preceded by a rehearsal day, which was our big idea that we decided was going to happen before we told anyone else about it. We basically were sitting there talking somewhere in New York and then we're like, wouldn't it be kind of cool if we did this thing where we had like a day of rehearsal or we wanted two days of rehearsal and then shot for two or three days. And we're like, no one's ever going to do that. Right.

And then they, they, we asked and they said, yeah, we, well, we basically said we decided this is for the best of the movie because you had asked me at some point very early in getting the script,

like where do we start? What, like how do we, how do you see beginning? And I didn't really know. And then I thought, um, I was seeing, uh, a production of The Hairy Ape at the Park Avenue Armory. And something went wrong during the show and they had to stop it.

And I was watching them kind of restart. And I was thinking, we don't start. Day one is nothing. Day one is rehearsal. Yeah. Day one is, let's just figure out all the choreography and all the speed. So that when we're rolling on day two, you can just plow through it. And then it really kind of worked.

Because it really is a play. There's very little like, it's not a lot of coverage. It's like every act is one scene. So you have to work out where you're going to be, what room you're going to be in at the end of the act. You have to know that. You have to know where you're going. But it was an interesting balance because also for me, though, though playing Becky there had to be a certain amount of spontaneity so it was it was an interesting balance of planning and rehearsing the moves and the camera

and where we were going and figuring out what the issues were going to be but not quite going full out and missing something that wasn't actually going to be on camera but it was like kind of like being at theater camp because everyone would show up and everyone would go do different things if you were in the scene you'd go down to rehearsal if you weren't you'd go to costumes wear your makeup or you go practice your instrument like everyone had their like it was like a it was like theater camp yeah it was just in a big sound stage so there was just complete space and freedom but it was just I mean the the intensity of the character was something to be protected and something to build the entire schedule around really like the whole schedule

the rehearsal day building these sets blocking it out this was all just to make sure that when we're going whatever lizzie's doing and whatever is happening is just we're getting it it was all just building a huge safety net it seemed like especially in acts i guess three and four the studio session um and then in the house they're like static environments but it kind of feels like anything could explode at any given time like is that a reflection of the kind of like we don't quite know what the energy is going to be here two and four yeah so um i like you under your breath, correcting two and four. That's okay. If I got it wrong. Um, it is, I mean, it's just the contrast between all of that

had to just feel extreme. Um, and those were the last two that we did. So we had done all of the backstage stuff. So then we needed to find a way to preserve this working style and that sense of chaos and unpredictability in two shooting styles that did not necessarily lend themselves to it. So there's versions in Act 4, which is very static, of unpredictability, but you couldn't really move your head too much because the focal depth of the lenses was like four inches. So the unpredictability had to be something different. And the studio there's so much precision with the glass and the dollies that the unpredictability again it just had to be really in your eyes instead of in your entire body language because in the backstage stuff you could run across the room and if we knew you were going to do that that's fine but in those two we really needed to slow things down but then it had to feel like it

was the same emotional pitch. For me, like, I don't even know if I realized this at the time, only afterwards and talking about the movie and having seen it so many times, but, like, each act reflects her mental state, including the way the camera moves, you know? And so for act two, she's often enclosed in glass. She's an animal in a cage, and she's sort of roaming around

and, like, sort of stalking the cage, you know, and can't get out and then does get out and then goes back in. And then for act four, the whole not moving idea was really interesting because it almost felt like in act four that if Becky moved, she would break. So she almost was like, it's just going to sit really still, be really quiet and everything will be fine if I just don't move. And so it felt like the camera sort of reflected that feeling. And it's more obvious in one and three and five. Now it's just I've never been involved in something like that where they, in a film where the visuals and the camera has been so connected to the character and the idea of just the different colors

and the different styles that each act was going to be shot in were so specific. And for me, it was just that was like a very cool overall experience that I was super excited about that Alex wanted to do. Yeah, I mean, as written, you know, the movie is entirely subjective. What's happening with the camera and the music and the sound is entirely connected to whatever's going on with Becky at that time and this was an exciting challenge to kind of unite the filmmaking with the performance and create one thing that

just exists between them it's not like so once you figure out how you're going to do this we'll figure out how we're going to shoot it like it says in the script act one steadicam act two zooms and dollies. But that's just written because I know that that's what the emotions of those sequences need. But then giving this to Lizzie, it's like, as we talked about,

which you didn't even put your finger on, but like, as you already mentioned it here, like you can play a character for 10 years and, you know, clearly are better at that than anyone else working uh you don't have to agree with that but let's just i can agree yeah and but i thought it was interesting in the span of you know two two hours and 15 minutes in the span of one script one month of shooting basically

bring to a movie what you do that's right yeah with madman or with handmaid's tale or you know just create something that the audience feels like they've lived with this person forever in real time you do that in your other work by doing it yeah but in this i just thought like you can just jump between it because i believe you probably can like at one point we realized we were basically doing like five seasons of a tv show in a movie it was five acts totally the character is in a totally different place. So much else has changed in her life. As though you made it, took five months off, came back,

and then people have been like, so this is what we're going to do now. But we were just doing it all at once. And that felt really exciting. And again, something I wouldn't feel remotely safe in trying to execute unless we just had the complete confidence that the performer at the center of this all was going to deliver pretty effortlessly as far as the crew could tell. Maybe there was effort involved.

If there was, we didn't really see it. I have started asking guests, what is the ideal double feature with their film? I'm curious what you think would be. This is a new question of yours? It's a new question of your new question of mine it's kind of a it's just a fake what are your

influences kind of question but dream double feature yeah I always think about stuff like that I mean there will be blood it got that'd be great I always said Becky would be like the bride of

plain view yes that would be a great I mean I feel like there's so many I would there's so many great double features I mean the big influence on this movie that I've talked about a lot is

Steve Jobs yeah but you know what The Aaron Sorkin, Danny Boyle movie. Yeah, but you know what's better than three? Five. Thank you. Well done. I think that'd be a really fun double feature, but it would be exhausting because it's like four and a half hours of the same thing. Yeah.

But I would love to watch that. There are more gradations in Becky's character than in Steve's character. Perhaps. You get to see a lot more colors. Right. I'm not going to take on that statement. I think it's character than in Steve's character. You know, you get to see a lot more colors. Right. I'm not going to, I'm not going to take on that question, that statement.

I think it's true. Thank you very much. Well, Becky's a fictional character, so you can do whatever you want. It's true. But I feel like the big, kind of to me,

like my favorite girl punk movie is ladies and gentlemen, the fabulous stains, which is just a wonderful film from the eighties with Diane Lane and Laura Dern and members of the sex pistols are in it. And they wrote the music. It's a fantastic movie. It's aged perfectly. I looked at it a lot for visual stylistic influence

and those two movies together I think would be a lot of fun for people. Did you guys watch stuff like that before shooting the film? I didn't watch that one. I watched a few things. He would just throw things at me to watch or send YouTube videos

or Aggie would send things, something if she found. We would just kind of send things if we found them. I just, there were some things I found very helpful, very influential. But I just don't necessarily work that way from the outside in. So if I can't connect to something emotionally, I can't really do anything. So for me, it was just more about connecting to it emotionally and figuring out Becky herself. You know, the facts of an era I feel like are interesting tools up into a point for me to give me some context. And at a certain point, they're not actually helpful to tell the human emotional story.

So I sort of took what I needed. And then at a certain point it was like, I don't need anything else. I'm good. I need to now go figure Becky out. Let me amend that answer. I think a great double feature would be this and Queen of Earth. Oh yeah, totally. That's reasonable.

That's so true. Which would go first? Queen of Earth? I think Queen of Earth would go first. I mean, but this movie is more of a meal. I feel like this is a tough movie to be the second half of a double feature but you know

I feel like if you're a director and you're sending an actor an existing movie by another filmmaker and saying this is what I want to do then you're probably not doing your job very well

so it was much more fun to just look at documentaries and clips and just music videos and it was more fun to kind of set the table for what we were doing in terms of

the actual world and the style of these women than to be like, look at the way that the Steadicam in Steve Jobs captures this hallway. Because that's what you talk about with the production designer and the DP. The actors, you know, they're doing their own thing. I watched like Marilyn Monroe documentaries. like that I found extremely helpful like to just see when when she was obviously high on something and giving an interview and how she was dealing with the camera and the lights in her face and and yeah just that kind of thing I felt like extremely helpful you know this has been extremely helpful Elizabeth thank you Alex always a pleasure yeah thanks for having me guys appreciate it thank you Always a pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having me back, Sean. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thanks again to Alex Ross-Perry and Elizabeth Moss, and of course, Lindsay Zoladz, for joining me on today's episode of The Big Picture. Please tune in tomorrow on this feed, where we'll be continuing Marvel Month, where my pal David Shoemaker and I will be talking about what may or may not be the very best Marvel movie. It's Guardians of the Galaxy. Please tune in then. We'll see you next time. limited recording for only $20 a month with no contract needed. Philo is available on Roku, iOS, Fire TV, Android TV, and Apple TV. So start your free trial instantly with just a phone number. To start that trial, visit philo.tv slash big picture.

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