The Big Picture - Top Five Spy Movies and ‘Without Remorse’

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

In honor of the new Tom Clancy adaptation ‘Without Remorse,’ Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to break down all things spy movies, including what they love about the genre, how they define it, and their top five favorites (0:13). Then, Sean is joined by director Stefano Sollima to talk about ‘Without Remorse' (1:06:30). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Stefano Sollima Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Press Box is here to catch you up on the latest media stories. Hosted by Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker, these guys have the insight on the biggest stories you care about. Check out The Press Box on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about microfilm, espionage, and shadow tactics.

That's right. We're talking spy movies today on the show in honor of Without Remorse, the latest addition to the Tom Clancy universe. Starring Michael B. Jordan as Clancy's brutal super spy, John Kelly, a.k.a. John Clark. Later in the show, I'll be joined by Without Remorse director Stefano Salima. Since I last spoke to Stefano about Sicario Day of the Soldado, he's co-created and directed the Amazon series Zero Zero Zero. And now he enters the Clancyverse. But first, let's talk spy movies.

There's only one guy to do it with. Big fan of Zero Zero Zero. It's Chris codename CR Ryan. What's up, bud? What's up, guys? Any relation to Jack Ryan, Chris? Yeah, he's my dad. Guys, let's talk quickly

about Without Remorse. When we started planning this episode a couple months's talk quickly about Without Remorse. When we started planning this episode a couple months ago, I thought Without Remorse was going to be a spy movie. It turns out it is not exactly a spy movie. It is a let's punch people really hard and blow things up movie, which is not necessarily a bad genre. I like that genre in many ways. And I think Salima is amazing at staging major action set pieces.

But it's a little bit different than my expectations. Chris, what'd you think of Without Remorse? Yeah, you know, it reminded me of an 80s action movie, especially in its character motivations. Often a family is put in peril. If anybody's seen the trailer, it's not going to come as a surprise what spurs John Kelly down the road of acting without remorse. But that also matches up with the source material, right? Because Clancy was writing in this 80s Cold War Mayu, and that was kind of like the way that you got characters going was to put either their family in peril or to kill them and have them with nothing to lose. Yeah. So Kelly is, of course, the sort of meaner, brawnier flip side of the coin of Jack Ryan,

the other most significant Tom Clancy character. Amanda, what did you make of Without Remorse? Yeah, a lot of punching, which, you know, we're going to talk about a lot of movies on this podcast that also feature a lot of punching. But like, as you said, punching was the raison d'etre of this movie. There is international intrigue, but I'm not sure that I totally understood it. And once you get through Without Remorse, which is, I mean, it's just like a revenge action movie, a revenge origin story, which, as you said, like, hallow genre, many people may enjoy that. And towards the end, it tips at some spy movies to come.

I like spy movies a lot, so I am looking forward to those, but it kind of takes a while to get there. Yeah, the movie essentially suggests we're entering a broader, expanded universe of Clancy. It's interesting to see Clancy get revived right now, given that, I don't know, we don't have that same kind of Cold War paranoia that a lot of his fiction was born out of, that sort of post-fall, the Berlin Wall, all the Harrison Ford movies. How do you feel like the Clancyverse... Does the Clancyverse make sense to you right now, Chris? Yeah, it's hard to translate it all.

I mean, obviously, some of the major actors are still in the drama there. And some of the names have been changed, but a lot of the sort of motivating factors are still there. I do think, though, Clancy was writing... I mean, you see his author photo, he's standing on the sort of motivating factors are still there. I do think though, Clancy was writing, I mean, like you see his author photo, he's standing on the deck of a battleship with a Navy hat on. Like it wasn't like he was like hiding what team he was on.

So I think that in some ways, the source material was a little bit, not biased, but like it's not exactly as nuanced as maybe contemporary viewers are used to seeing these stories be told, which will be interesting to see when we do our lists here. I mean, contemporary viewers of fiction series, I think contemporary viewers of MSNBC are like pretty familiar with the stakes the last few years. Like they just ran on Russia for whatever. But yeah. Rachel Maddow shadow recruit.

Right, exactly. I mean, I'm just kind of like different audiences and also different interpretations for sure. I think that one of the things that has changed, obviously, is that we've moved from the sense that a lot of that dialogue, those conversations, those change-making events were happening behind closed doors, behind the scenes, in the shadows.

And in fact, what's changed now is the idea of like conspiracy being a mainstream media tool, you know, and a lot of the conversations that Jack Ryan was having in some of those books, Rachel Maddow might have with an analyst on television now. And so it does, I think, change the way that we receive and perceive spy movies. Let's talk about spy movies. So, Chris, you're probably the single biggest connoisseur of spy fiction that I've ever met. This is one of your favorite genres across the board. What is it that you're looking for in a story like this?

I think a sense of place. I think the reason why I love these stories is that it is an alternate history. There's this Don DeLillo line in Libra, the book he wrote about Oswald, which is not specifically a spy story, but features a lot of CIA stuff in the book. And a character is talking to another one about the nature of what they do. And he says something that's always resonated with me, which is there is a world inside the world. So I've always liked this idea of this sort of shadow world, this mirror world that's right in front of us and that is in these cities and in these countries

and is in these governments. But we as like sort of casuals don't really understand what they're doing or what the consequences of their actions are. And in a lot of ways, they've shaped the post-World War II experience of reality. But we just don't even actually know that for sure. And so these novels that I tend to like, whether it's Le Carre or Charles McCary or Robert Littell, really dive deep into that. And of course, there's an element of these espionage stories I'm sure we're going to

talk about that is really romantic. There is an innocence abroad theme that often comes about with like people traveling to these foreign lands and sort of insinuating themselves into the cultures and the societies and the governments and sometimes bringing them down in the process. But I really like all that stuff. I feel like there's a discrete difference between the American spy and the English spy. Amanda, I feel like your version is a very kind of debonair, glamorous version of spy fiction and spy movies. Do I have that right?

Yes. I mean, obviously, I've spoken at great length about my affection for the Bond series. And I actually will just say up top, we put together top five lists and I did not allow myself to choose Skyfall or any of the Bond movies just for the sake of variety because I knew knew we would talk about it anyway. And you know, I'm just trying to be a good podcast, but yes, absolutely. The international intrigue, the charm, the going a lot of places, the like psychological warfare, but also the flip side of psychological warfare is just like charming anybody into doing anything that you want, which I enjoy on a, I enjoy watching that happen. And I also liked that, that idea,

but I would agree with Chris. I don't read the fiction as much, but I love the movies had a hard time picking five. It was ultimately, they're just about access to worlds that you don't have access to, which is kind of what movies are in a lot of ways, but it's a bunch of decisions and people and rooms that you know probably exist somewhere. And it's maybe not like this, but it's kind of

like this. And you're living in the consequences of it. And it's incredibly voyeuristic, obviously, not just because it's about spying, but because I think we all as kids of the 80s and 90s feel like we are living in a world that was made by people in rooms making questionable decisions. I guess everybody in history has done that, but we'll talk about the CIA a bit and its portrayal over the last 30 and 40 years. And I'm a nosy person. I want to know. I want to feel like I'm in the room. I want to feel like I understand.

I want to, I understand the impulse that a lot of these characters have of trying to one-up everybody and feeling like if you just know everything and you can just outsmart everyone, then like you'll win. And obviously that's not true in spying or in life, but it's a very appealing setup to me.

I also love the fact that spy, whether it's literature or TV, which I suppose we could also talk about in movies, is a lot of the times, it's about inaction. It's about letting something play out it's about seeing where the thread goes but not necessarily interrupting that thread and you know there's a reason why um i think this is more this is like sort of the the thinking man's action movie in a

lot of ways because it's usually people manipulating one another there's a reason why almost all of these movies that we're about to talk about could have in a world where nothing is what it seems in the trailer, you know, because that's a really intriguing setup for a story. If you tell me that nothing I'm seeing could be real or there could be ulterior motives to all of it, like it's just going to make

such an engaging viewing experience, I think. In addition to that, you know, we have an episode later this week coming up about Tenet. And Tenet, of course, is very much a spy movie in many ways. And one of the things that that movie does well

that I think a lot of these movies that we'll talk about do well is they lean into the sense of disorientation. I feel this way when I read spy novels as well. You can't expect to get it right away. In fact, you have to wait

a long time often to kind of get it, to understand how the pieces fit together. And so that breeds a kind of patience with the experience. We live in a very different kind of culture right now, where if you have a question, there are 100 explainer articles for you at the tip of your fingers. It's so easy to just find out. Chris has been banging what is an NFT into a search bar just nonstop for 20 consecutive days. And no one will say so. So thankfully, we have all these explainer articles. And spy movies are different. You know, they really, they take their time in revealing what they are actually about and revealing who is good and who is evil. And sometimes the two ideas

blending together is part of what's fun. But in almost all cases, I would say with the exception of Tenet, there's a very clear answer. It is a puzzle that is going to be solved at some point. And there is that tension between everything being disorienting and not having answers, but the insistence that there will be order, even if you have to like screw up you know three billion people's lives and like several you know world economies in order to install that order and who gets to install the order and why is like another one of the intentions but the tensions but you know as someone who both likes to know that the puzzle is going to be solved and who likes the sense of like control being imposed um i find them like reassuring in a way

that like, you know, for the most part, even if you're not going to feel good about the answer, there's going to be an answer. It's a really good point though, Sean, about like the difference between the pre and post internet spy story. Because if you go up to say like Hunt for October and like spy pop culture up until that point is

essentially about expertise like you think about that scene in hunt for october where jack ryan is like you son of a bitch and it's because he knows it's the anniversary of his wife's death and it's like he is the foremost expert on this one naval sub commander and there's only one person in the world who would put together, make that connection. And then however many years later, a couple of years later, we get enemy of the state. And it's essentially a bunch of bros in a van zooming in on people's faces and hacking their phones. And it's a different kind of expertise, but it's not scholarship. It's more technical expertise rather than like, I just understand the socio-political landscape of Russia or the Balkan states. No, I'm a guy who can jump into

your iPhone and record everything you say. And there's this shift to a more technologically savvy spy story right after that. So do you think that's a bit of a good thing or a bad thing? Because as I was going through my favorites over the years, of course, there are a couple of golden eras of these kinds of films. The 40s, there's a number of incredible films. Obviously, the 60s with the introduction of Bond to movies, the 70s and the paranoia of that decade. Right now, do you feel like we're having a good run of spy stories? Well, it's hard for me to answer without referencing Le Bureau, which I am on the journey

with, with Chris. But you know, number one, that's a TV show. And number two, that came out, what, five years ago, Chris? Yeah, so that just ended. Yeah, last year. Yeah. And certainly reflects a lot of the geopolitical and technological tensions of its time but and also interestingly from a french perspective and the bad the bad guy in a lot of ways is an american played by buddy garrity from redneck lights uh which is just an incredible statement on a lot of things but even and i love that show i'm three seasons in it rules check out um chris's and andy's coverage on the watch but i'm trying to think kind of in like the even our relationship or our public understanding of surveillance and privacy and all the stuff has changed like in the last four years even in the the trump

administration i'm so sorry to say it i just finally finished reading uncanny valley by anna weiner do you guys know that book? It's like a memoir about Silicon Valley. I read it and it has nothing to do with this, except that it, she worked at a quote analytics company, which was about data and kind of tracks even in like the, like the micro generation of our understanding of surveillance. And then we get all of these devices that can surveil us and then our understanding and of what the government is doing with it and it makes rooting for a spy in any way

really hard just like really hard and like at some point when you're watching these movies you gotta think about the extent that for which you're for a spy. Well, this is the thing, though. Isn't that the brilliance of the genre itself? Is that the protagonists are often at odds with what they're being asked to do? Or they're having a crisis of faith about, am I a patriot or a traitor? Or if I am a patriot, do I still believe in the mission of the country that I'm serving? Do you know what I mean? That's often why in real life,

we actually get a generation of British spies that were like, I'm going to Russia. You know what I mean? That fucking happened. So it's like, that's why I love it is because they actually take your question into account. They're like, it's not as straightforward as like, am I a good person or not? It's like, why am I doing what I am doing? And am I so far away from the edge of the pool that I'm just

drowning in the deep end here? Well, I think one of the things that has happened over time is that most of the classical spy movie franchise tropes have just fully converted into a lot of what Without Remorse converts into, which is action. The Mission Impossible series, which we love, is an action series. It's based on a show that was a spy show. It had some action elements, but that was a spy TV show in the 60s, and now it is an action franchise. Atomic Blonde is a spy movie, but it's really an excuse to watch Charlize Theron punch people. Red Sp sparrow same thing you know there's a movie right now out with benedict cumberbatch called the courier same thing there's just huge action elements to some of these movies though there are it's really in television

though i have not seen lib bureau um i may protest it just uh to spite you both but um it's fine i feel like the three key shows that I think of that, that are attacked this category are two obvious ones to look at a adaptations that I manager and the little drummer girl. And the third, I think is Mr. Robot. I really feel like Mr.

Robot adopted. So especially the first season of Mr. Robot, the way that the, the, the Rami Malek character was portrayed was the same way that I think a lot of the central figures who have that kind of disorientation and that kind of confusion about

whether they're on the right side or the wrong side that you're talking about, Chris, that character was very much in that vein. And obviously, we know Sam Esmail was very informed by the films of, say, Alan Pakula, you know, those conspiracy and paranoia drenched films. So it does seem like it has almost fully

moved to television these days. Yeah. Well, it fits. I think it's just the spy stories are about patience and spy stories are about the long tail of something. It's not about a heist. It's not about a set piece. It's not about, can we get out of this country in time? That may happen in the last 30 pages of a spy novel, but the first 450 pages are usually George Smiley sitting somewhere adjusting his glasses and trying to decide what his Russian counterpart is going to do 15 chess moves ahead so that he can have the right 16th move. So that doesn't really lend itself to films. And I think that for as beautiful as the Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy feature that Thomas Alfredson did a couple of years ago is, it's like a trailer for the novel. Now on the flip side of that, I will say that I would imagine that if anybody

gets a chance to watch the BBC version of Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, which was with Alec Guinness, and is famously one of the reasons why Le Carre stopped doing Smiley novels is because he couldn't see the character as anybody but Alec Guinness. That's pretty dry. And it is pretty much page for page the novel. And it's a long novel. And it's a talky, thinky novel. So it's the balance. And I think when you look at our lists, you're going to see that I want a little bit of this. I'm building flavor. I want a little bit of action, but I also want a little bit of car chase. I want a little to see that like I want a little bit of this. I'm building flavor. I want a little bit of action, but I also want a little bit of car chase.

I want a little bit of romance. I want a little bit of humor, but I also want like some core elements of the spy story that I just, you know, always return to. You know, it's interesting.

None of us picked any of the Le Carre adaptations. I don't happen to think that they're particularly good films. Like great films or whatever yeah well I did notice that Sean in the letterbox that he prepared that was not ranked which he noted helpfully at the top that um I'm sick of getting that question I'm not right you

did anyway I did actually I unfortunately like your dms yeah well all my DMs from all my adoring fans are just like, is this ranked, bro? But you included both the BBC Tinker Tailor and Smiley's People. And I did wonder, Chris, whether you would go for it. And Sean, you mentioned two more TV adaptations, Little Drummer Girl, which I need to rewatch because that just was incredible. And Night Manager. But, you know, this is a movie podcast. I think Chris and i were both trying to like follow the letter of the law and and i do also think that in that particular to echo chris it's like there's a reason that like there are tv series that are good and all of the um le cray film adaptations like have just not worked because you can't pacing-wise

just cram it in. It's a different type of storytelling. And I'll say, and I would say this across the board for spy movies, is that the floor

is incredibly high. A bad spy movie is pretty good to me. So, A Most Wanted Man and Our Kind of Traitor are two Le Carre movies that adaptations

that have come out in the last 10 or 15 years. Totally fine. Totally good. Philip Seymour Hoffman's amazing in a most wanted man like i think that that you can get something out of them but if you read the novel for a most wanted man and you watch the movie it's just like night and day it's not like they're not even close to saying the same thing about the same subject so tinker tail of soldier spy i think many people will point to and say how could you not put that on the list my experience with that is I had I have known that you guys have have have loved that book for years um I know you've returned to it many times and your extended family is a huge fan

of those books like um all the in-laws shout out to the Barrett family but um I watched that movie and then read the book and of course I agree with what you're saying, Chris, which is that it is definitely not the book. But I like it as a standalone piece. And so the idea of interpretation is kind of interesting here. The only thing is we're leaving out two that I think people do think are in that top shelf, which is The Constant Gardener, which we actually just mentioned on our Oscar winners draft. And The Spy Who Came In From the Cold, which neither I don't think any of us have on our Oscar winners draft and the spy who came in from the cold,

which neither, I don't think any of us have on our lists, which is a very well regarded Richard Burton, Burton adaptation from the sixties that I think captures the LaCarrie vibe. Yeah. Very well. But isn't necessarily as energetic as I want it to be. Yeah.

And I would say constant Gardner, if it wasn't written by John Le Carre, I would defy people to call it a spy movie. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's like a beautiful drama and it's quite a good film. But it's tough.

It's like, I think we can get into a lot of like, is it a spy movie or a war movie? Is it a spy movie or is it, you know, whatever? I would be curious

to know whether people would say they'd see Constant Gardner and would call it a spy film if they didn't know it was adapted from a Le Carre novel. Shall we go into our top fives?

Let's do it. Amanda, why don't you start us off? What's your number five? All right. It's time to reclaim Argo. Which I don't, Chris is already

shaking his head at me. No, I'm shaking my head because it's on HBO Max and it's a very good movie. It's very fun to watch. It's a great hang. It's a great watch. And I'll be honest, if it hadn't won Best Picture,

I think people would just accept it as a very like a fun and well-made spy film. It's got international intrigue. It's also got some funny Hollywood parts. So it's, you know, you don't feel too bad about yourself. It has like a decent amount of this trade craft and are they going to make it through customs? It kind of sets all the things up. It moves, it has movie stars. I honestly think we would have been happy even to have it at the Oscars this year. So maybe we can even revise some of the, how dare it be in the Oscars conversation.

But as like an accessible spy film that kind of balances between some political stuff, though, you know, you don't want to think too much about the political interpretation of this movie because it's very Hollywood. And then some fun, now we get to be spies and some tension. Like, it kind of has a little bit of it all. Maybe I should just rewatch Argo.

You won't regret it. Like, just put all the Oscars stuff away. Like, you know, we had a whole emotional conversation last week. We got to move forward. We got to imagine a new Oscars. We got to imagine new selves. Okay. And I think like just being mad that Argo won best picture is not going to solve anything. So let it go. You're saying it's time to heal. Yeah. And, and, and Argo is the Neosporin. Sure. Yes. Okay.

I'm down with that. I'll go to my number five. Okay. So I expected to have a little bit of a Bond joust with you guys because I'm not the biggest Bond fan, as you know. I have liked the recent Bond films a lot more because I think they have a lot more in common with the movie that is my number five, which is the Ipcrest File, which is a 60s Michael Caine movie. It's really the movie that I think kind of announced Michael Caine as a significant movie star in the mid 60s. It too is a British spy movie, but it has almost nothing to do with the Bond style.

This is a very working class spy figure. It's a very kind of mysterious, slow serpentine kind of a movie. It's a movie that doesn't look and feel anything like the dashing Sean Connery of that era. And that's very appealing to me because I was never a huge fan of those movies. I didn't grow up with those movies. I think I'm looking for something that is a little bit more reserved, honestly, a little less dashing. Why can't you have a good time? I mean, that's fine. And this is a good movie. But like, if like a handsome man in a tuxedo is like, hey, Sean, here's a martini. Would you like to go gamble in the casino? Like, why can't you just say yes?

Well, I've never had that exact instance come up in my life. I'm not saying I would turn it down. That's what the Bond movies are doing for you every time. So just give in. Let yourself have some fun, Sean. I find that they're just a little bit redundant. And I also find that they're not interestingly complex. That's the thing. It's like the Bond movies are very simple. They're mainstream entertainments and they're meant to be like, here's an explosion. Here's a babe. Here's a villain. Here's an explosion. Save the day. Can I ask you a question? Of course. Were Bond movies on in the house growing up?

Did you like, was the TBS? Yeah, so it was not. I mean, they were airing on television, but I didn't grow up with parents who were obsessed with the Bond franchise. In fact, I don't know if my parents cared at all about James Bond. And they were huge.

They were both movie fans. So it's not like that wouldn't have been strange, but I don't know. I don't have an emotional relationship to it, and what I like about Daniel Craig is that he's the working class Bond. He's an oddly more relatable Bond. He's a bit more bare-knuckled,

and the Ipcris file is very similar to a lot of the stuff that we were just talking about in terms of the way that it holds back its reveals, the way that the main character is sort of trapped between trying to understand whether he's on the right team or the wrong team. This is also a franchise. It's also, it is somewhat similar to Bond

in that it's a John Barry score and it's the same people that produced the Connery-Bond movie. So it has that level of style and taste. It's just the execution is a little bit different. If people haven't seen it, I think it's worth watching there are four i think or five other harry palmer movies too that came after this like this is a true franchise yeah it's a cool novel len dyton and then len dyton also wrote a a very very like good trilogy i think it's called

i can't remember it's like uh l like London game, Mexico set, Berlin match or Berlin game, Mexico set, London match. And it's like a trilogy about the same spy. So if you're looking for book suggestions, those are really cool. Quentin Tarantino was rumored to be interested in making those or one of those into a movie at one point, but lost the time.

Sierra, what's your number five? I'm gonna go Ronan. So this is, I think you would look at this and call it a chase movie or an action movie, and I wouldn't disagree with you, but I think the Jonathan Pryce, Robert De Niro, Natasha McElhone spy part of it is really, really, really awesome,

and it's set, obviously, in Paris and Nice. It involves a sort of disgraced IRA officer who's on the run, who's also trying to get something that's in a case, whether that's nuclear weapons or whatever. It's got a David Mamet script that's just like a middleweight puncher right in the jaw. It's so good. It does, just by the way, have two of the best car chase sequences I've ever seen in my life and is just a really evocative, awesome John Frankenheimer B-movie that deserves a spot on this list. Awesome De Niro performance too. What's the color of the boathouse at Hereford, Chris? I jumped you with a cup of coffee. Okay. Amanda, what's your number four?

My number four is part of, is on someone else's list. So do you want me to save it? Sure. Yeah. Why don't we hold it until we get around to that one. So we'll go to my number four, which is the Parallax View,

which is a movie that I just rewatched for the first time in a long time. It's a little bit different than some of the other movies on our list. And so far as the spy in question is a little bit unclear because this is a movie about a man who is a journalist who gets ensnared

in a kind of political conspiracy. He's played by Warren Beatty. This is the second film in the Alan Pakula Paranoia trilogy. It's kind of nestled between Clute, the Jane Fonda film, and All the President's Men, which also is kind of sort of a spy movie if you think about it. But this one kind of bridges

the gap between those two things. Parallax View is probably the scariest movie of the 70s for me, especially having rewatched it. The sense of omniscient power operating over this movie and the way that decisions are made at the highest level really to amend. It's the point that you

were making earlier about people in rooms deciding our fate. It's a movie that really, really speaks to that. I think the first time, first couple of times I saw it, I didn't really get what it was doing. And the third time I watched it, it's almost all told visually. Everything is at a great remove. There's a lot of like massive structures making people seem small and insignificant. It's like an amazing accomplishment of filmmaking. Pakula is total genius.

This is him in his zone. And also a really great film just reissued by the Criterion Collection. I would recommend people check out that edition. It's really, really good. And all the extras are fascinating. But it's a movie that, you know, the baby character is not a spy,

but it seems like everyone who's around him is spying on him. And so that sense of surveillance that we were talking about too really plays into this movie. Great film. Check it out if you haven't seen it. I mean, who's a spy and why

is also sort of an essential question in a lot of these that aren't seen it. I mean, who's a spy and why is also sort of an essential question on a, in a, in a lot of these that aren't your traditional, I'm, you know, employed by the CAA and I've just been cut loose. Sorry. I'm spoiling some people's lists and also my own, but that's also the setup of like a lot of spy movies. Yeah. Yeah. But it's either like you are, you are definitely like officially a spy and that opens one set of doors and or you got caught in spy world. And then like, what does that mean for you and your morals and also whether you live or die? Yeah. And it's also like that.

I love that a lot of these movies take someone who thinks they're sort of benignly participating in the larger intelligence world. Like, I'm just this guy who fucking crunches numbers. Like don't bother me. Or I, I translate Farsi. What could I be doing wrong? And then it's like, no dog,

you're in it. You know, like it's happening. So with that in mind, Chris, uh, what's your number four? Yeah,

I'm going to go from Russia with love. Uh, it's the second bond film. I, unlike Sean, I feel like the bond marathon on TBS was on for a majority of my childhood.

Parents were huge Bond fans. They would often just throw a Bond movie on for fun once we had the VHS. I think that this is in many ways the platonic ideal of a Bond movie for me pre-Craig. It's romantic.

It's globetrotting. It's got great villains that introduces both the knife and the boot lady, but also Robert Shaw as this Adonis Russian assassin. A little bit of Blofeld in this movie. We get a little bit more Spectre. It also has all of the gadgetry, but also has a little bit more specter it also has all of the like gadgetry but also has like a little bit of like practical intrigue like bond going to turkey and getting enmeshed in kind of a

a family dispute there uh he falls in love with a a russian lady uh there's a great great orient express sequence to wrap the film up it pretty much has if you were if you were gonna like kind of list off like all the checks that you needed to hit, all the checkboxes you wanted to hit for a spy movie up until a certain point, From Russia With Love pretty much does all the tricks. So I wanted to have a classical pick here. Yeah. I feel like the second film in a series is usually the worst because they're like, oh, we made something great and now we got to make another one. But in the second film, people don't really have like a long-term vision of what they want to do with a franchise. They're just trying to repeat the greats.

And this is like the rare example of maybe it's the best of that. This is the one I would have put on my list as well. Because they know what works, but it's still grounded. And it's before you get into the totally enjoyable, like, but ridiculous Bond. I mean, these are ridiculous, but like, you know, Bond parodying Bond within its own franchise with the gadgets and the villains. And it's like, it, it just kind of hits the right tone between like, Hey, aren't we all having fun? But also isn't this cool to watch? And then it tips into just like, Hey, aren't we all having fun? But also, isn't this cool to watch?

And then it tips into just like, hey, aren't we all having fun? Which I am throughout the rest of the series. But this is the best, I think. My favorite tidbit about From Russia to Love is that we look at Bond as this billion-dollar franchise and one of the indelible characters of the post-war. But this is sort of when they were still trying to figure it out so when you see Blofeld and from uh from Russia with Love it's physically played by the guy who's the doctor in Dr. No not Dr. No but one of the guys in Dr. No and they just like grabbed him to be like the the stand-in for Blofeld it's just sort of like oh yeah we were still like trying to figure it out and holding it together with spit and dental floss back then.

This is the one that I revisited after Connery passed. Is it the iconic Connery film? Because I feel like Dr. No has the Ursula Andress kind of coming out of the ocean stuff. This one doesn't have as many iconic moments, but I feel like people reference it as the best movie of them. I think this and Goldfinger are probably the ones that people get most excited about. I prefer this to Goldfinger.

Obviously, like in the trajectory of Bond, I think from Honor, Majesty, Secret Service has a lot of fans too because it's the dark one. But yeah, this is probably my favorite. You Only Live Twice is really good, but it's aged very poorly. Where is Daniela Bianchi in the Bond Girl power rankings, Chris?

She's beautiful. I don't know. It's a good question. Up there with... Was Rebecca Gayheart ever a Bond Girl? Who was the... Wasn't there like one for like... Denise Richards.

Denise Richards. That's right. That was sort of my era. I believe she's the only real housewife who was also a Bond girl. Is Denise Richards a real housewife? She certainly is. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. Wild times. Eva Green's still number one for me. Yeah, absolutely. She's elite. Okay. Amanda, let's go to you. Now you get a chance to reveal number three. You can reveal it even though it's on my list too okay this is uh 1996 is mission impossible affected by brian palma i had forgotten how formative this was i just i think at one point

like i was so into the theme song that i just like held up a tape recorder to the tv in order to be able to have like 30 seconds of the mission impossible theme song to just like run around and feel cool in, which obviously cool doing a lot of work there that has nothing to do with the actual definition of the word. But 96 Tom Cruise still has it. I kind of feel like maybe this is like the last of the like 80s 90s tom cruise like he's doing a lot of kathy like it's just like only uh code red level tom cruise acting in this but you can still see the the person there and i'd like brian de 12 year old all of the tropes i feel like most of the set pieces like actually still visually hold up obviously the most famous

being like the middle of the the silent heist when he kind of floats down and and um that like just that shot is sort of shorthand for all of the mission impossible movies, I guess, until that bathroom fight in fallout, which is, what does that call? It's like the spider heist. Like when he just like does the,

I mean, yeah. Descends like a spider into the room. I don't know if it has a name. I mean, it doesn't like flash. That's what I call it. When I go to my crop class and I'm like,

just lower me down. You know, I always think of it as the knock list heist right yeah that's right really trying to get um you know a great twist that is like very obvious but still kind of fun fun supporting cast like international locations and And I've starts a very successful franchise and sort of the next phase of Tom Cruise. But yeah, I think this was probably my entry into spy movies and spy movies as like, isn't this fun? Look at all these gadgets. Wouldn't it be cool to do this? You know, which it was great that I was 12 when I saw it, I guess, but it's wouldn't it be cool to do this you know which it was great that i was 12 when i saw it i guess but it's a classic yeah i was 14 and this is my number two on my list and it's my number two and i think it's one of the reasons why i actually never really got into a love affair with james

bond because this kind of became mainstream spy movie for me um and obviously i love diploma but i didn't even know brian diploma was really in 1996 all i knew was that this was the movie starring the guy from the firm and tom cruise in 1996 in may mission impossible premiered and in december jerry mcguire premiered can you can't do better you just you can't do better um That was, I mean, he was truly, it's hard to oversee because that's now, gosh, 25 years ago. But there was not a person who was more at the center of American culture than Tom Cruise at that time.

And he was, I thought, an incredibly effective spy. I thought the movie was simultaneously like self-conscious and winking about the genre while also adhering to some of the genre's best qualities. And on top of that you do get you know the knock list heist you do get that insane train tunnel finale with the helicopter flying i mean you know it's really a lot of people operating at the the apex of their powers so

phenomenal movie um and that franchise is still freaking active yeah they're making two more it's a tough break for chris and scott thomas who i'd forgotten was in that movie for like 10 And that franchise is still freaking active. Yeah, they're making two more. It's a tough break for Kristen Scott Thomas, who I'd forgotten was in that movie for like 10 minutes. Boy, but what a 15 minutes though. It's true. But I was hoping that things would continue for her and I had forgotten. I don't think Kristen Scott Thomas meant to me in 1996

what she meant to me. But another brilliant De Palma design to kill off Emilio Estevez and Kristen Scott Thomas and all those people who thought we're going to be on the team and they

took a show that was a team show and they made it a one-man franchise I don't know if you could have gotten like I wonder if that's in the trailer now you know

what I mean like I wonder if you'd be able to pull off a first and a third act twist the way they do in that movie without it leaking out or

needing to be like signaled. I mean, that was kind of like when I was watching without remorse, I was like, I can't believe how much of this is in the trailer. You know, like I was, I was really surprised by, by all the different motivations that get tipped in there. It's an interesting thing. I think that that was also, I believe that's the first film that Tom Cruise produced with Paula Wagner and that he took a huge amount of creative control over that project. And I think there's a reason why it continues to be important to him is because it was the first time that he said, you know, I'm in charge of this. And, you know, at least at that time he was right. I mean, he, he pushed all the right buttons. Uh, okay. Chris, what's your number

three? The Bourne legacy. It's not, I'm not misspeaking. I'm not, I didn't say Bourne identity. I didn't say Bourne supremacy identity I didn't say born supremacy I didn't say born ultimatum all of those movies are awesome those are action movies those are action movies okay well the born legacy is a spy movie and Sean was asking earlier like how do spy movies function in a world where maybe our concept of nation states is different or our concept of what those nation states kind of mean is different and I think that this is a really good example of that. It's like this sort of spider web of interdepartmental defense agencies where nobody really knows who think he's an Air Force colonel, but is also running this team of super soldiers, but is also involved in big pharma and is sort of extending the work of Albert Finney

from the previous films. And then you've got this great kind of 70s conceit, Tony Gilroy, no surprise, wrote and directed this film, is probably a huge fan of movies like The Parallax View, where you bring someone like Rachel Weisz's character into this world of super soldiers and assassins and international intrigue. And she just thinks she's a doctor. She just thinks she's working at this R&D lab and working on these army guys who come in, but she doesn't know about them and they don't know about her. And she gets sucked into this world. I think it's a really good

Renner performance. It's a dynamite Oscar Isaac performance and Norton is out of this world. So I think I'll probably hear a little bit of blowback on the streets about this from all my Bourne guys. But as a spy movie

on the streets of Berlin, where I do all my off books work. But as a spy movie I think The Bored Legacy is easily the best spy movie of the franchise. Did we see this film together? I'm sure

because I saw it like two or three times in the theaters and I think I was like you all my close friends need to come see this with me and commune with it.

I have a very distinct memory of seeing Yes. I think I walked out and I was like that's the godfather and you were like you need to have a fucking apple juice and chill out you just told that story a lot better than i

ever could that is definitely what happened um you know love tony gilroy i don't really know what you're talking about here but that sounds great your taste is awesome can we talk a little bit about the born identity which i would like to just that is also a spy movie like okay come on he's like oh shit i was a spy and then they all turned against me and now i gotta use all my spy tricks to get out of this like it's a pretty classic spy meets action movie so i i love that movie. Like that, that movie is a better movie than the Bourne legacy, but I really like how the Bourne legacy like pushes itself to be modern and to be like, what are, what could we, what else could we do here with this? You know?

Yeah. I knew that you would put a Bourne film on your list. And so I did not put the Bourne identity on mine, but I do just want to talk briefly about the Bourne identity. I guess it's not really a safe house, but the house in the countryside where- Her ex-boyfriend's place? Yeah. Yeah. Where they wind up hiding for a while, which I'm classifying as like definitely just the greatest safe house like in in movies that I can recall and also really led me to lead learn that my like interior design aesthetic taste is

like European countryside safe house so just shout out to the Bourne Identity for that can you not step on our top five safe houses episode that I've been planning i know this has been months in the making here sorry well it's very good um amanda why don't you give us your number two all right my number two this is this is the non-fun one i mean i think this is a beautiful movie but i am i'm doing the lives of others uh which is a 2006 film directed by florian henkel von Donnersmark and is the um it's set in the GDR in the 80s and follows a Stasi agent who is spying on a playwright in East Germany and it follows the Stasi agent and the playwright and the playwright's girlfriend and a number of other party officials and this is a beautiful and i find like very is it beautiful i think it's an effective and chilling movie about kind of like what spying actually does um it is some people think that this is a movie about or it's been criticized

for like redeeming the stasi agent a little bit or humanizing him and I can see that though I think that this movie is really about complicity and what happens when spying like infiltrates an entire society and the moments of um the playwright making some of the decisions or that there's a neighbor and it's just like one scene um where the neighbor interacts with the Stasi agent and the Stasi agent is just like, don't tell anybody what's going on or else your child or someone will lose a place at school. And you watch her face. And just that it's like a gut punch. There's, you know, scenes of other Stasi agents learning how to spy and being indoctrinated in this world. And you just like watch people

trying to make decisions and trying to grapple with um what what it means to spy and and living in a surveillance state and kind of what you do what you lose when i mean just like what it means to know everything about each other and also kind of what you can't know about other people and obviously all that gets lost um in a terrible surveillance state um i it's it's a really like well-made film obviously just in terms of creating that world of east germany in the 80s and the dread and you you know, the production design and this, all of the specific spy elements. I mean, that's the other thing when it goes through like Stasi training school, it's pretty jarring, but it's, it's the other side of these movies. And if you watch all of the films about, oh, like here's how to look at someone, you know,

through a mirror and here are all the cool spy tricks and here's everything that we can do with all of this information and all of this very cool, slick spy stuff. And it is a presentation of the other side and a very effective one. Yeah, I think my number three, my number two is Mission Impossible impossible my number three would be a

pretty good double feature with with your number two amanda my number three is the conformist bernardo bergolucci's movie from 1970 which is a very similar theme which is sort of the psychology of a spy and the burden of being a spy and trying to understand what it is you're doing with the information you're acquiring what actions you taking, and how you became the person you are. This is a kind of a fascinating psychological study of a learned man in the 1930s in Europe who is working for the fascist secret police under Mussolini and who has been tasked essentially with assassinating one of his mentors, a former teacher who is a, I guess, a leftist thinker who is thought to be influencing the opposition party. But the movie is much more complex than that. And the way that

the story of the main character who's played by Jean-Louis Trintignant is fascinating. A series of cascading flashbacks to traumatic moments in his life as a teenager and the idea of attention, affection, love, and how the absence of some of those things could alienate him from people and create a world in which he could do this potentially

terrible thing. Obviously one of the single greatest movies ever made. If you have not seen The Conformance as well, I would highly recommend it. I would highly recommend trying to see it on a big screen. I saw it at Film Forum like 20 years ago, and it was... It's one of those visually sumptuous movies you're ever going to see. There's this great part in Visions

of Light, the cinematography documentary that we reference sometimes on this pod, where Vittorio Storaro is talking about working with Bernardo Bertolucci on it, and he's just like, and Bernardo said to me, he said, Vittorio, what are we talking about working with Bernardo Bertolucci on, and he's just like, and Bernardo said to me, he said, Vittorio, what are we talking about when we talk about fascism?

And it's like all, how they just like constructed these frames to like bring to life all the themes of the movie. Yeah. It's, it's a feast. It's a really, it's a fascinating movie to see.

It's a fascinating movie to think about. And, and, and Amanda, I do think that this is like a, it's a concept that filmmakers who are interested in spies have been returning to over and over and over again because it is one of those jobs

where you have to think about what the hell is going through the mind of the person that is doing it. You know, this is a huge risk. It indicates a kind of moral ambiguity that is rare in our lives. So that's The Conformist.

Chris, what is your number two? Big time cheat from your boy right here. But I'm going to do it anyway for content. Yeah. Number two is the Redford Trilogy. You guys, Three Days of the Condor, Sneakers,

and Spy Game. Yes. Three of the spy movies I probably return to most frequently, although Three Days of the Condor is harrowing. So it's very good on vibes, but when you actually think about what happens, it's just very terrifying. It really goes well with Parallax View.

Similarly, this guy who thinks he's essentially an academic basically realizes how deep in the shit he is because the office he works at and this publishing house in New York City everybody gets assassinated except for him. He's able to escape and it leads to this sort of cat

and mouse game of him trying to figure out who sent these assassins what the CIA does or doesn't know about it, why they're doing it, involves Faye Dunaway in the story when he meets up with her. Faye Dunaway in this movie.

Sheesh. Sidney Pollack directed. I love the fact that this movie is essentially a New York movie with a little bit of Washington, D.C., but it's essentially a New York City spy movie, which just gives the city itself a different energy. New York City is already, which just gives the city itself a different energy.

New York City is already such a great cinema setting, but to have that kind of running in and out of subways and in and out of office buildings and in and out of bars or cafes is just a really, really great environment for it.

Sneakers, kind of the flip side of that, whereas this is maybe the loveliest, most gentle spy movie you can find is essentially a family movie about this group of sort of somewhat

disgraced ex-CIA guys or hackers or tech people who have formed this kind of like bad news bears of freelance intelligence work and get sucked into a massive plot involving I think the NSA and

hacking and a bunch of stuff but Redford, Sidney Poitier, Ben Kingsley, Dan Aykroyd, a really awesome River Phoenix performance where he's just obviously having a really good time. Mary McDonald is very good in it. So Sneakers is just a crazy rewatchable movie. Phil Alden Robinson directed that. And the third one is Spy Game, which is a Tony Scott movie with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt, which is, for me, my favorite tradecraft movie. Because it's just basically like, hey, what would it be like to learn how to be a spy? Now, Brad Pitt starts from being a sniper, so he's got some pre-existing skills. But they do, basically, Robert Redford is like, I'm going to teach you step by step how to be a spy. I believe it's in Berlin, right?

I think so. In that first sequence, right? And then later on, it moves around the globe. But that's just a great immersing yourself in the mechanics and process of a spy movie. And it's Tony Scott, so it looks great. And it moves like a fucking runaway train. Yeah, that 10-minute montage where he's learning how to be a spy.

It's like a shopping montage in a rom-com, but it's just like, here is everything that you need to know about how to spy. It's great. I re-watched Spy Game this week because I thought I would put it on my list. And instead, I did Three Days at the Condor. That's my number four. I would just add to everything Chris said. Number one, also a great Christmas movie, which I'd forgotten.

And we would not have out of sight without three days of the condor. So thank you to everyone involved, but especially Robert Redford, who just is absolutely wearing that peacoat beautifully in three days of the condor um but the thing about spy game is that i just actually really want uh brad pitt and robert redford to be together more spy that's the major problem it's just like there's only about 25 minutes when they're just together doing spy hijinks and the rest of the time it's robert redford like pulling one last job in the CIA by himself, which is also fun. I don't know what kind of check we would call that coat, but a great coat he's wearing in that scene otherwise. But I would love to see the Redford Pitt spy outtakes. They could feel free to make that movie at any time. And I put these together because I never really thought about this as

a thing that Redford continued to do throughout his career at various points. Uh, but in a way, like these are three of his best movies and to me, and, I really, I just,

I thought it was really cool that he is almost like our American bond. So the one issue that I have with three days of the condor is the idea of Robert Redford as a bookish analyst is just absurd. He looks like a runway model in this movie. But you buy him as Bob Woodward. Yeah, but then he's a spy. That's why it works out. It's like, you can't just be a bookish guy.

Of course, you also need to be a spy. And then he's a spy. And it's great. It is nice to look back on the time when Brad Pitt was only making movies with heroes and elder father figures so that he could learn from them like he goes from seven with Freeman to Harris the devil's own with Harrison Ford to spy game with Redford so now he's got to start doing that he's got to start bringing people on and be the mentor he's been the mentee who should he mentor't know. Like Lucas Hedges. I wish.

What do you want me to say? Who needs mentoring? I don't know. Spy game two with Lucas Hedges is that's, that's, that's intriguing. Okay. Amanda, let's go to your number one.

Shit. What's my number one? I forgot. Oh yeah. My number one. As I said, I didn't put Skyfall on this list because everyone knows i love skyfall great movie and thus i don't have a bond film on my list except i really do because

my number one is north by northwest perhaps you've heard of it directed by alfred hitchcock starring carrie grant and what i'm just like it a podcast. Maybe people got to know about North by Northwest. It's a good movie. There's a plane. It's a crop duster, actually. And like, this is absolutely a Bond movie to figure out what's going on when he gets roped into this sort of shady, MacGuffin-ish international intrigue plot, but also learning how to be a spy on the fly so that he can outwit all of these people all doing it in an immaculate suit, seducing a young woman or actually having the young woman seduce him because he was very concerned about the age difference and, um, being as charming as can be and being the American bond in a lot of ways. So I, I don't think that you have any of the bond movies without this. It just also has still some of,

I mean, one of the greatest any of the Bond movies without this. It just also has still some of, I mean, one of the greatest set pieces ever in the spy plane. I'm also pretty fond of the Mount Rushmore and I mean, it's ridiculous, but again, I like Bond movies, so that doesn't bother me. Um,

and Cary Grant, love Cary Grant. CR. Let's say Stefano Salima comes to you and he says, I want to remake North by Northwest,

but with you. Yeah, as Cary Grant? Yeah. I'll do it. I'll do it. Okay. But I feel like I would do it. What are you talking about?

I wouldn't want to do it the same places, though. We got to find new national parks to hang out in. So maybe... Like where? Glacier? I don't know. What's the free solo joint? What did he hang out in. Like where? Glacier?

I don't know. What's the free solo joint? What do you hang off of? Capitan? El Capitan, yeah. Yeah, throw me off of that. Throw you off of that? Yeah, like as a sequence.

I'll just go running off that. Then I'll squirrel jump and float down, you know? There's a subtle cliff diving theme to your appearances on this pod this week that's right listeners will have to tune in later this week to hear what i'm referring to uh chris let's talk about our number one we share a number one probably because it's the greatest movie ever made that movie is called the third man for pound it's in the convo i i

think it's definitely in the convo 1949 directed by the great carol reed with a script by graham green a name we have not yet uttered on this show but also one of the the bards of spy films and international intrigue chris what do you love about the third man what's not to love name a part about this movie name an element of this movie that's not perfect the cast perfect trevor howard orson wells uh joseph cotton uh you know like alina valley yeah uh the the music and anton karas's uh zither music uh the cinematography is mind-blowing it's german expressionism it's dutch angles the setting is post-war vienna is there a better spy setting than post-war fucking Vienna? It's got incredible sequences. It's got incredible betrayals and twists and turns. And I think brings in a lot of

the moral corruption and gray area that we love about spy movies is because it does corrupt people. It does make people break their own principles or ask what the principles were in the first place. I noticed that a lot of our films are all pre and post war films. You know, that's the thing that the spy movie always it always precedes or comes after a violent conflict, you know, and obviously luckily for spy movies, there's no shortage of violent conflict. That's right. And like these movies, they're tributary movies, right? The third man is like the ultimate tributary movie. It's like what happens to a place?

What kind of, you know, what kind of villainy grows in a city in the aftermath of violent conflict? And what the Harry Lyme character chooses to do in Vienna during that time, and he becomes this kind of central figure that is being pursued by his old friend, played by Joseph Cotton,

is he becomes a crime lord. he becomes like a an evil person a a worker racketeer um and obviously he is he goes down because of that spoiler alert but in one of the all-time greatest kind of chase sequences that you'll ever see in a movie as you said chris like a beautifully shot film that basically people have been ripping off now for i guess guess, almost 75 years. I mean, I know I talk about this movie all the time. Do you like this movie? Yeah, I didn't put it on my list because I know it's your favorite movie of all time. And I was like trying to do some variety of list making. I mean, The Third Man is like iconic. It has shaped our understanding of spy films and also definitely east europe eastern europe as you guys were talking about post-war vienna i was like i wonder if i'll ever visit

vienna or prague like i just don't think i can go to any of those places because they're so ingrained in my mind as uh where shady spy hijinks ensue and i'm gonna be in trouble um yeah i mean one of the classics. That's the problem with this list is that there were so many, I mean, like literally classic movies that you would want to list and also so many of my favorite movies that I didn't really have room for because once you say top five spy movies, it gets like, that's a very high bar and you have things like The Third Man and North by Northwest to contend with but tough to put born legacy over the third man right you almost did

trying to do some variety both with your list which is why third man's not on mine and also um the variety of just discussion because we talk about a lot of these movies on the podcast a lot. They crop up for us. I think it's kind of like it's a nice shared sweet spot between all of our film interests. And obviously also it's just like a very expansive genre and can contain a lot and has contained a lot over time. But I don't know. I have like a tremendous number of honorable mentions. Yeah, me too. I was thinking because Carol Reed obviously directed The Third Man and directed one of my favorite spy movies. And it's before Alec Guinness got a chance to play Smiley.

He played a spy in Our Man in Havana, which is a significantly different kind of movie. Much closer to a Peter Sellers comedy than it is an international intrigue tale. But if people haven't seen that, I would recommend that one. Why don't you guys give a couple of honorable mentions? Chris, what would you honorably mention? Well, there's a couple that I think are like spy in, like maybe not exactly like necessarily spying happens in it, but it feels like a spy movie.

So like Manchurian Canada, I think could be considered a spy movie. Incredible Frankenheimer. I didn't want to pick two Frankenheimers. Marathon Man, I think especially the be considered a spy movie. Incredible Frankenheimer. I didn't want to pick two Frankenheimers. Marathon Man, I think especially the Roy Scheider subplot in Marathon Man gives it a spy element.

And I just wanted to shout out two performances from spy movies that are not... We've mentioned a little bit of Mission Impossible and I mentioned The Most Wanted Man earlier,

but Philip Seymour Hoffman gives two performances. One in Mission Impossible 3, especially the Count to 10 scene, where he is just dominating Tom Cruise to his face. And then also in A Most Wanted Man, where he plays a sort of a head of the German secret service. And they're just amazing performances.

So if people haven't gotten a chance, I'm sure that you've seen Mission Impossible 3, but A Most Wanted Man is worth watching just for Philip Seymour Hoffman. Also Munich is kind of a spy movie. Amanda, what about you? A couple of honorable mentions? Yeah, I have an insane number, but I would just also add on the Philip Seymour Hoffman tip, if we're counting Charlie Wilson's war as a spy movie, which it's like spy adjacent, there are spies around it, but he definitely is one of the greatest scenes at the beginning of Charlie Wilson's war, a movie that otherwise doesn't really hold up. He's talking about like the Greek Hunter.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, it's like, I mean, but that was like three minutes of acting that like, it's just, I unforgettable.

Okay. Some other, I, you know, I mentioned, I mentioned Skyfall, you know, casino Royale also,

like I am a huge fan of the Daniel Craig Bond movies, as Bond movies and just as movies. All of the Sean Connery ones were just kind of, like, on TBS, on loop in my home. And they kind of, like, blur together to me as, like, a vibe. But Skyfall, Casino Royale, obviously. We mentioned Born Identity. We mentioned Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, which I think miniseries for me over movie. But it's the same thing where the movie is like pretty good if you haven't consumed any of the other Lecrae content. And then if you consume some of the Lecrae content, you're like, wait, a lot's missing here. But it's still good.

Hunt for Red October. you're like wait a lot's missing here but it's still good hunt for red october i mean i just that's that's a very good movie that we talk about a lot on this podcast uh bridge of spies we didn't really talk about uh i was surprised chris that you didn't want to do your rylance bit for you know 10 minutes i like this bias i think that was that was similar to Argo probably was like knocked because of its award contention right it's like well it's not

that good you know but if it had just come out in like May we would have just been like damn this is pretty awesome we're all assholes like that just that we're just yelling

at each other like it's not that good about like perfectly good spy movies I mean look what we have to watch now anyway No Way Out,

Kevin Costner 80s movie that I'm not going to describe, but check it out if you haven't seen it. That movie is erotic. That's not why I wasn't going to describe it. Oh wait, No Way, am I thinking of Revenge? I'm thinking of Revenge. That's erotic.

No Way Out is also erotic. No Way Out also does have its moments, but that's not what I was referring to, Chris. But you know, that's a fun one. referring to chris but but you know that's sean young is getting after it in the first 30 minutes no way out yeah and then madeline stowe is in revenge yes she is and she is uh treated very poorly in that film you guys want to just list any other hot women in movies and in spy movies we gotta do a madeline stowe episode okay she's one of the goats man okay and Okay. And then finally, I will mention Duplicity, which is the 2009 Tony Gilroy spy rom-com

starring Clive Owen and Julia Roberts, which basically this should be my favorite movie ever made. And it's not my favorite movie ever made. And so it can't be in the top five. It's one of those i think we did a we had a mailbag question once that was like what movie would you have like people like do over and i would have everyone involved like change nothing just try it again and let's see if we can get there because if there's so much to like and there is a lot to like anyway you're i want to do that

as actually an episode the three of us i want to do that as actually an episode, the three of us. I want to do the Let's Try It Again Awards, where we take a movie that has an incredible premise and a great cast and the right person behind it. And just, it's 12 years later. Let's just try to just make the same movie. Will this work out? It's a really good idea. We could probably list spy movies for days.

Needless to say, it is one of the richest. I feel really bad if I don't mention one more honorable mention. Go ahead. Burn After Reading. We don't have any comedies in this, and I just think it's worth mentioning. Burn After Reading. Also, I was raised by spies like us.

Chevy Chase, Dan Aykroyd movie. I don't think I've seen a movie in about 30 years. Worth a revisit, Chris? You check it out recently? It's got some pretty funny Chevy Chase sequences. But also, like a lot of those those movies then turns into an action movie for the last hour so a lot like Without Remorse

yeah that's true that starts as an action movie way to bring it all the way back around well with that in mind now let's go to my conversation with Stefano Salima

thanks Chris thanks Amanda Thanks, Amanda. Delighted to welcome Stefano Salima back to The Big Picture. How are you, Stefano? I'm really good, thank you very much. Glad to be here. How is everything in Italy these days? I mean, it's pretty crazy as everywhere else, I think. But I mean, here it's like during the day, everything is open.

And then when you're finished with the job, everything shuts down. So it's kind of crazy. You're able just to work, not to do anything else. That sounds not like the typical Italian lifestyle for you to just shut down. Exactly. That's my point. Well, tell me about your working life a little bit. You've been toggling between television and film for years, and I feel like the last two years have been huge ones for you. Can you just tell me a little bit about the period from

000 to Without Remorse? It feels like you've been very, very productive in this very short period of time. When did 000 begin, and then how does that correlate and translate to starting Without Remorse? Because it feels like they were back-to-back.

Yeah, but basically just because it takes an incredible amount of time to develop the project and zero, zero, zero, we start talking about it five years ago. And then it was pretty complex to put together the project and to find the money so to finance it and then basically while i was doing the post-production of uh of uh zero zero zero i started developing and working on uh without remorse was the thinking there you wanted to do something that was more contained after doing a series that had that scope? No, I mean, it's not the correct definition of more contained without remorse. I mean, it's another crazy project. It's different because Giro Giro Giro was pretty ambitious because it started from Italy, from Europe. And so it was pretty complex to find the finance and to convince everybody to shoot a TV show in several languages

where the English is not the main. Shoot it in, I mean, in five continents. I mean, it's like, it was literally a little bit crazy. The first time we finished to put together the treatment, me and the producer, we look at each other and we said, okay, it's cool, but we are never going to make this. So this was logistically and was pretty complex.

But without remorse, it was in a completely different way, but was really, really complex to put together. So how familiar were you with the Tom Clancy universe? It's obviously a major thing here in the States. I don't know if it is translated to Europe over the years. rainbow six years ago i'm not really good at because i always play with them so you know how you do you share the then when you die you go to the kids but he can play for i mean an hour without dying so i'm not really good at but i mean i i i kind of was one, probably the principal writer of political thriller with scope. And then I was always in love with the accuracy and realism in telling the story. they were interesting characters but in a geopolitical absolutely accurate

world and environment. And this I felt it's what I like to do when I'm in terms of storytelling. And I also, I was really

I didn't understand why they never made a movie on John Kelly because personally I feel him more impressive

than Jack Ryan for a different way I was a fan of all the movies and the TV show on Amazon, but I think that Jack Ryan in a way it's like he believes in his country. He's And John Kelly, it's way darker than this. It has more nuances. He has a lot of shades of gray.

And then I felt it was an interesting, even more interesting character to give birth to. Yeah, you know, it's kind of surprising when you look back on it that it was Jack Ryan who emerged in the 90s as the Clancy character in films. You would think that back then, the sort of the brutality and the intensity

and the nuance, like, you don't see those kinds of stories told as much. When I saw that you were attached to make this movie, I was excited, but I was also a little bit interested to see if you were going to be able to kind of push it in the way that you usually do with the action, with the intensity. Like you bring a brutality to some of these stories at times. What was it like kind of getting into a world where there was pre-established characters, a sense of like control in the space, expectations with fans? How much do you have to manage all of those things? It was pretty challenging. Because as you know, I mean, it's like,

it was a big author, a big franchise in the producer's mind. And so a lot of responsibility. But I don't think that you have to care too much because otherwise you're not going to be able to do your job right. So I tend to be pretty honest. So I pitched them my vision of the film and my vision was to make the movie, the book to modernize it, to make it relevant today. And then, of course, my approach to the movie making, it's visceral in a way. I don't...

I think that the violence, somehow, it's part of our life and has to be portrayed. It makes sense. Because I don't like when it's gratuitous. I don't like it makes sense in English when it's not necessary. And so, of course, as always, when you love something, you have to fight a little bit. But it's not a real fight. It's more to convince everybody to marry your idea,

your intention. And the first big ally was of course, Michael B. Because I pitched him and I told him, I feel that it would be really interesting to tell him this story, the arch of John Kelly, without changing too much point of view, trying to be and to feel and to tell the story through his eyes. And to do so, of course, I asked him, are you willing to make all the action stand on your own without a double or a stamp? Because that way, I mean, more than the action, we're going to experience what you feel, how the action is're going to experience what you feel how the action is changing you is affecting your soul so again make making a movie it's a

collective act so what you can do is just to push a little bit and to guide to a path. But then, of course, it's a job that we do in a lot of people. What was it that appealed to Michael B. about the part and about the movie? What did you guys talk about?

About, I mean, sincerely, it's completely different from it. Not completely, but it has the same soul. But modernizing it, I think that it sort of becomes more relevant. We liked the combination of the two elements. It's the same that you can find in each Tom Clancy's book. That is to be entertaining and

profound at the same time. So a movie that you entertain yourself, that keep you in the edge of the seat, but then when you get out from the movie theater or from your home,

you have something to think about the society you're living on. So it's like, in a way, it's an old style approach where you have entertaining, but also, and now it seems a bad word, to be political. So to tell something about the society you're living on. So I think that it was the combination of these two sides, that one is like evolution and a little bit smart, if you want. And the other one is to be just a kid and play with the huge, gigantic and cool machine.

So I think that was the combination of the two, the experience to be able to do something that makes sense in our society today that reflects the diversity, the complexity of our society. And at the same time, I had pumped to do a big rollercoaster movie. You know, Clancy's books and some of those stories have this very complex blend of cynicism

and a kind of pride and patriotism kind of colliding. Do you identify with his kind of worldview? Is that what drew you into some of this stuff? Yeah, I think it is like what i like that he he he that i mean you can read which were his own ideas but at the end

he never tried to convince on something he portrayed the complexity of a word. So being cynic, being patriotic, but this is part of the reality. You can trust in something, and I don't trust it at all. And then I think that this was what we tried to do with

Taylor Sheridan also, writing the movie, was to not to be maximalist. I don't know if it makes sense in English, but it's like not to be, oh, this is the good, this is the evil and judging our characters, but was more to explain and to create characters that are closer to human beings with all their nuances and and even the adults the bad guys in our movie if you think a little bit you understand exactly the reason why they did it so in their mind they are petrified. But they are doing crazy, horrible acts. And so we try to make, let's say, psychologically accurate each character that was involved.

In order not to judge them, but just to portray the complexity of the world. So you mentioned the phrase action thriller earlier, and I feel like, and correct me if you think I'm wrong about this, but I feel like that is a genre, a sub-genre, that is not as present as it was 10 years ago, 30 years ago. But you're one of the foremost makers of these kinds of movies. Do you get the sense that there is less of a demand or less of an understanding of why that appeals to people these days? Well, I don't know.

I think it's like, you know, I think that each genre is recurring in times. the only big difference that you can find in an action thriller or in the action is like when you just want to entertain the audience. And so all the action is built around the fact that it has to be spectacular. And then you have another one that is, if you want, it's an old-style approach where you put at the center a human being and you want to see what's happened to that human being. And you're not interested in how many pieces the airplane crashed because you want to read and to feel what it feels so it's a kind of different approach and then i feel it's a question of taste now nowadays we produce a lot of action and then i i mean you can find i think more or less both. Are you interested in working in the world of IP? Obviously, Tom Clancy is its own kind of IP.

It's this world and these characters that people have a relationship to. Increasingly, movies at the scale that you make them at are superhero stories, fantasy stories. Do you feel like you have a very defined lane or do you see yourself kind of moving into those spaces potentially? No, I'm really curious about everything. I would love to make for example, a science fiction movie. I mean, it's like, of course it depends on the project. Because in a way, to me as a director, it's a bit difficult to direct something without knowing that what I'm doing is real or makes sense with reality.

That doesn't mean that it has to be shot today or has to be a period movie, because you can do do also science fiction movie by believing in everything you're watching so i think i'm pretty curious and then this is the reason why i i loved the genre because first i i was i grew up in western sense so i i want to keep the kids that are in me alive. I want to play. And with this kind of genre of movie, you can play. But at the same time, I kind of like to make something that you feel it's real, that you recognize yourself, even if it's in the future, that makes sense for the humankind. So probably, yes, I will do it.

I want to ask you about that. You have an ability to make, you used Visceral earlier, make action sequences, set pieces that are louder and more physically real seeming than most other filmmakers. How do you do that? How do you approach a sequence where on this script it says, there's a fight, a plane explodes. How do you approach making a sequence like that work? I always try to find the most relevant point of view in the story. So I'm not interested in the action itself.

For example, in Soldado, the script, there was this convoy attack. And it was five pages of battle and with different point of view the word Benicio and Josh and then I said no no no let's use the only one that is relevant Isabel the little girl and let's shoot

the entire sequence mostly from her point of view and that way basically you get not just the physicality of the action, but you get the emotion of being there. And this, of course, it creates a sort of different kind of experience. And it's the same for the airplane crash, you know, without remorse. Of course, it's a really complex sequence, but I wanted to be so close with my role to be able to have also the audience feel

what does it mean to eat the water and go underwater. So I think that in this way, the action becomes an expression. It's not action for action, but it's an element that helps you in telling something about the character. That sequence is unbelievable in the film, the airplane sequence. The only thing that, the only regret I had after I saw it was that I was not able to see it in a movie theater.

This is a film that was made for theaters. I know. And folks won't be able to see that. So, you know, what is that like for you? I know that you made this for the big screen. I know. At the beginning, I was really upset upset but you cannot be upset because it's like i mean we are living a tragedy in the world now so it's like at the beginning you said oh no

i can't believe that because of course you designed you worked for years in order to to give and to create a movie theater experience but at the end I'm pretty I'm happy now I mean it's like it's different from what

it was probably two years ago but now I feel that without remorse it it's a sort of a song of our times. That is crazy, but could be also interesting in a way. And it for sure is different. And then we find out a big broadcaster that loves the movie and helps us in making probably, and to give it probably even a wider audience.

And personally, I like the idea that in this moment, you can be City Dome and watch a movie of this scale that is unusual to see as a premiere on uh on your couch that is kind of cool it's a gift yeah it feels like a sequel to zero zero zero two getting to watch it it's the same service you know it's the same filmmaker it's the same kind of it's like you're getting to tell that story across the same experience. It's interesting. You mentioned growing up with Westerns. I had the chance to see The Big Gun Down,

your father's film, for the first time this year. I think probably a lot of US audiences are because it's available on the Criterion channel right now. I thought it was amazing. I loved it. I was wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about kind of growing up in an environment where things like that were happening, where productions like that were happening. I mean, it was absolutely insane and crazy.

Because try to imagine yourself when you are eight or nine. What do you do? You play, basically, all day long. And then it was crazy to watch adult people playing as you, but much better. Because you were like with your finger pretending to have a gun and a real child was shooting for real. And then you were dressed more or less as always.

And you have your fantasy that helps. And they were dressed exactly as cowboys with horses and then you are with the broomstick pretending to be on an horse so it was crazy the idea of watching adults still

playing and being paid to do so and I remember this that I was like whoa being paid to do so. And I remember this, that I was like, whoa, I want to do this. I want to keep playing all my life. So it was kind of interesting because I hanged around the set for years and years. And it was beautiful to see all these audience people still playing.

Were you able to specifically learn how this stuff was made? Did you feel like you were absorbing that at a very young age? I don't know. I don't know really, because it's like my mother was a screenplay writer. My father was a director. So basically, literally, I grew up in a family where, I mean, movie was normal.

And I remember at that time, we didn't have a TV now. So we went to movie theater, I don't know, three, four, five times in a week. So I was to movie theater, I don't know, three, four, five times in a week. Wow.

So I was to sit there and watch movies with people that were smoking at the time. It was really a lot of time. So I grew up in that kind of environment. So I don't know, probably, yes, I've learned a lot. Because, you know, I was with my father almost everywhere, while he was shooting, while he was talking about the script in the other room,

or while he was in the editing room, while they were recording the music. So, yeah, of course. To me, it was, let's say, pretty natural from the beginning. So, Stefano, what are you doing next? Do you have a project going? Yeah, I'm working on a Western. Really?

Yeah. That is called, and it's based on the latest treatment, Sergio Leone, Wrote Before Dying. Wow. How did you get your hands on that? Same Leone's daughter and son that are big producer here in Italy and Europe,

they asked me to do so. But this is, I mean, I started working on it three, four years ago. And now we have the script that was written by Denis Lehane. So it's a pretty cool project. Denis Lehane interpreting Leone is that's that's a trip that sounds fun. It was an amazing script

incident. Stefano we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen anything good lately?

Oh yes I've seen almost everything let me see the last great this is the tricky question, but probably the answer is the father.

Oh, yeah. Please talk about it. What did you like about it? The structure is amazing. And has to do with the point of view. I think that it's beautifully written. It's super simple. So it's a good way to show how you can make a really compelling, interesting movie on a topic that is not appealing, but making it in a way that is so real and so true and so related to the topic that you're telling. It's crazy the structure they put together.

And Anthony Hopkins is amazing in that role. It's a great recommendation. Stefano, good to see you. Thank you so much and congrats on Without Remorse. Thanks for everything. Thank you to Stefano Salima, Chris Ryan, Amanda Dobbins, and our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. Later this week on The Big Picture, we are returning to the land of the watch-along commentary.

Chris, Amanda, and I will be watching Tenet, which just debuted on HBO Max. I hope you'll join us. See you then.