The Big Picture - 'Toy Story 4' Is a Masterpiece. Is It in Pixar's Top 5? | The Big Picture

Episode Date: June 21, 2019

Despite the threat of sequel fatigue, Pixar has managed to create classics. 'Toy Story 4' is the latest example, a fascinating portrait of identity that doubles as a treatise on trash. Rob Harvilla joins Sean Fennessey to talk about the new film, what it means to kids and parents, and how the studio has persisted for 25 years (1:36). Then, they share their top five Pixar movies (28:43). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. It's Liz Kelley, the co-host of Tea Time. Your favorite celebrity and pop culture podcasts have moved out of Channel 33 and into their very own feed called Ringer Dish. On Ringer Dish, you can still listen to Jam Session on Wednesdays and Tea Time on Fridays, and we'll be launching a brand new show that'll publish every Monday. Episodes so far have included a heated debate on which celebrity Chris reigned supreme and a social media deep dive on the Big Little Lies cast. So to hear more about the royal family and our current celebrity obsessions, subscribe to Ring Your Dish on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When the road looks rough ahead and you're miles and miles from your nice warm bed,

you just remember what your old pal said. Boy, you've got a friend in me. Yeah, you've got a friend in me. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Pixar Podcast, a conversation show about Toy Story 4 and all sorts of childish things. I'm joined today by a parent at The Ringer, Rob Harvilla. Hello, Rob. Hello. How's it going?

It's going very well. I appreciate you being here. You know, some of my frequent co-hosts on the show, among them Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan, are just straight-up assholes about movies. And I've noticed that I need to have people on to talk about important animated films. And I think even before you were a parent, you would have been a thoughtful and sophisticated guest for this episode, but you are a father. And so you are, have been exposed to Pixar in, in, in a deep way in recent years. Is that fair to say? That's very fair to say, very complicated relationship with these movies at this point, but yes. Yeah, so we'll talk about that a bit on this

show. I think we'll start the show, though, by talking about the new Pixar movie, which is, of course, Toy Story 4. I think when Pixar first started about 20 or so years ago, I never would have guessed that there would have been a fourth installment of any of these movies. In fact, when they started, they seemed like a new version of a kind of storytelling that didn't necessitate sequels. If you look on TheRinger.com right now, you can read a really interesting column by Miles Suri about the state of Pixar and their decision to make a series of sequels over the last 10 years and what that means for their brand and what it means for their business and what it means for their creativity. And in some ways, I think it's been really threatened over the last few years.

You know, we were just talking before we started recording about the infamous Cars 3, which I would say is not one of the more legendary installments in the Pixar universe. But Toy Story 4, I thought was quite wonderful. And I thought it hearkened back to what makes a lot of these films great and also pushed them forward a little bit. Rob, how did you receive Toy Story 4? What did you make of the movie? Well, I saw it last night with my sons who are eight and five in sort of a raucous sort of preview screening.

And my kids laughed more, laughed louder, just more obnoxiously than at any movie I think that I've ever taken them to. No kidding. And so by that measure i mean it was a huge success and i i thought it was wonderful and i thought it pushed things forward but also sort of pulled back on that sort of classic pixar idea that like the kids are delighted and the parents are total emotional wrecks you know what i'm saying like i it's sort of an impressive mass magic trick that these movies can do and i think especially of inside out you know which was my my i think i've written about this on the site a couple times

now but like my son walked out of inside out he was five at the time and he just thought anger was funny and i was just a crying mess you know because i just watched i just watched goofball island which is like the visual manifestation of like a joyful kid becoming a sullen teenager like depicted on like a giant theater screen it was just the most crushing experience like the way those movies these movies are designed to work on those two levels and they sort of drive the parents you know to the toy store but also to therapy like i i feel like this one was sort of uncomplicated cateredly just funny and delightful and like had its seriousness and had like themes that parents especially would pick up on but like it wasn't working that dichotomy where it was sort of like designed to upset me personally you know

what i'm saying like i i feel like they can play with that a little bit but they don't have to hammer at it all the time in every movie that they put out. I could just enjoy my kids enjoying this one a lotesian analysis of society, you probably could do that. Well, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that is, that whole divide is fascinating to me, the way that you've underlined basically the pure kid enjoyment of something and the way that adults are entertained and even moved by some of their films. I feel like, can you give me a little bit of a sense of as a parent, what it's like to see a lot of movies like this, not just Pixar movies, but animated movies or what's on TV or what's streaming for your kids and what the balance is between this

is secretly for parents and this is actually just dumb entertainment for kids so that they don't like break things in the kitchen yeah i mean i feel like i've seen every type of movie along that spectrum you know and i haven't hated any movie that i think i've taken my kids to even like down to like rock dog or whatever you know like i it's the lego movies are trying to be adult and trying to be knowing and it feels like they are specifically pitched for the adults in a way that like a lot of the jokes are going right over the kids' heads. Like I, I don't dislike those movies, but I think that the Lego movies are a little too cute about that.

You know, I've seen plenty of things like, you know, like the emoji movie or the trolls movie or whatever, which are, you know, have theoretically adult jokes, but aren't trying to work that duality

certainly the way that pixar movies are you think about forky who's like the new protagonist or like the new cool character here in toy story 4 and like forky spends the movie like having an identity crisis like he's he's a new toy but he thinks he's trash and like he wants to be trash like he's literally a spork with pipe cleaner arms and he spends the whole first 30 minutes of the movie just going trash trash and like i think that's really profound and my son just really loves the way that forky keeps saying trash trash like he did it my son did it all the way home the whole drive home like and it's that's a cool little thing like that's you know the different levels you can appreciate it on without it having to be this comedy versus tragedy divide, which sort of typifies, again and they're sort of resigned to the fact that they're all going to die like all these cute little toys and it's you know i'm sort of a crying

wreck and like my sons are sort of mildly disturbed but they figure everything's going to be okay and it is but like there's no moment of like pure pathos on that level in this movie and i was frankly kind of relieved like the idea that i have to walk into every Pixar movie braced to have this huge sort of existential breakdown as my kids just enjoy themselves. It felt like we pulled back on that a little bit and I was grateful for that. I agree with you. It did feel a bit like an episodic adventure, which wasn't a bad thing. I think sometimes you can get a movie like that where the stakes have been lowered from the previous film and you're like, well, now you're just wasting my time. But inevitably when it's a movie about anthropomorphized

toys, somehow it's nice to just have something that is a little bit more fun. I mean, you mentioned Toy Story 3, which sort of ends with that transition from Andy to Bonnie, and then inevitably Bonnie becomes the young child who is the owner of all these toys. And so we're reintroduced to a world that features some of Bonnie's toys and then the toys from the classical Toy Story story. And then Forky comes along on the first day of school. I did feel in that sort of first day of school moment that I was getting some of those inside out vibes that you're talking about,

where it's sort of like they have managed to metastasize the most vulnerable feeling that you can have in your life. That scary first day of school where you're like, I don't know anybody and everybody hates me and I'm afraid and I miss everything that is comfortable around me. And they zero in on it and they show it to you through the eyes of a little kid and you immediately feel a recognition. That is a storytelling power that is often overstated about Pixar. Allow me to overstate it once more. Like, it's amazing how they managed to locate and then isolate those feelings and show them to you on screen and make you relate to them.

Like, I am consistently blown away by that. There's another one at the end when there's the kid lost at the fair. You know, she's just sort of, there's a little girl and she's crammed between, you know, two food carts or whatever, and she's crying. And like, yeah, it's the exact same feeling and i yeah there's a conversation also i think it's between woody and forky and like i think woody says like you know these kids like you watch them grow up and become a person and then they leave you know they'll do things you'll never see like the whole point of these movies is that the toys realize that one day they'll be abandoned you know one

day they'll fall out of favor, and one day the kids will run off without them and won't need them anymore. And that's not even subtext. That's exactly how parents feel watching these movies. I think that's always there, and it is really striking. I mean, this is possibly the best movie I've ever seen with the numeral four in it.

You know what I'm saying? As you said as you said like it's i understand sort of the dismay or at least the concern that pixar has become by and large like a sequel factory you know but i i didn't dislike incredibles 2 at all but like i felt like certainly this was a better sequel than any of the other sequels that we've had this year obviously Obviously, you've been talking about how terrible and how sort of lifeless they are. Like, this is just a 180 from that. Yeah, they staved it off. It's a pretty impressive single-handed job

in a summer from hell for this movie to come along and ever so briefly, I think, pause things. One thing that's notable too is, you know, we're talking about the human emotion that they're able to imbue into these films and into these characters. The movie's directed by Josh Cooley,

who is essentially a first-time Pixar director, though he's worked for the company for a while. And the screenplay has two people credited, but the story has two, four, six, eight people credited.

And it's a complicated list of people. I'm going to read it to you really quickly. Story by John Lasseter, Rashida Jones, Will McCormick, Josh Cooley, Valerie LaPointe, Martin Hines, Stephanie Folsom, and Andrew Stanton. Now, the last two people are the official authors of the screenplay. Famously, when this movie came together,

Rashida Jones and Will McCormick, our writing partner, were brought on board to write it, and they eventually left the project because they felt like they were not as open-minded about new voices, particularly a woman of color talking about the way to tell these stories for Pixar. Pixar very famously has had some fraught history with John Lasseter, one of its co-founders and its sort of chief imagineer for a number of years due to sexual misconduct allegations. And the company has, I would say, I guess, effectively weathered the storm, whatever that can mean, and has moved on from Lasseter, who I believe is most recently appointed to a position inside of Skydance and their animation division at Paramount. But it's so strange to have an event like that happening

in the background of a movie like this and a series of movies like this that are so humanistic and so vulnerable in a way. And I don't know if there's necessarily, I don't even know what I need you to say here. There's no way to really reconcile the fact that these things are happening concurrently and on this same project and seeing John Lasseter and Rashida Jones in succession in the story by

credit at the end of this movie was kind of jarred me out of the soft feeling I had when the film ended. It's just an unusual state of affairs. And this is sort of the after blow of a long journey of Me Too stories over the last five years. I used to work at a newspaper in Emeryville in the East Bay in California that was like a mile maybe from the Pixar campus, from the giant monolithic campus that they have there. And it just sort of reminds you what a huge enterprise, what an industry this is, and what a monolith it is. And it is sort of contrasted with like, they're making kids movies and they're so cuddly and they're so adorable. But just what a big business this is and how many people it employs and how secretive they have to be about it. And yeah, just the darkness and the reality,

as Miles wrote in his piece about how Pixar was a boys club and very much still is a boys club, a white males club. And just these these movies a lot of them have addressed really explicitly the idea of diversity and telling stories from different perspectives i don't think the toy story series itself has never ever really done that just you know the nature of the story like the idea of race or ethnicity isn't really a part of the toys i guess you know it's it's not as explicit in these movies as in others but yeah it's that's another dichotomy you're sort of working with like you know how these movies are made you know how important they are how much money they make and how much they're fought over you know on an industry level and yeah I hadn't really known the backstory until recently of Rashida

Jones coming on and then leaving and yeah it introduces an element of darkness to this and you know I don't I don't really need any more elements of darkness introduced to this, but it's fascinating all the different levels this is working on. Yeah, and I think that's part of the... It's funny, you mentioned that these movies don't necessarily engage with race per se, but one of the things I think is most effective about this movie is the idea of tribalism. And so, you know, you mentioned Forky, who is voiced by Tony Hale, who is this spork that is created by Bonnie in the first day of school. But then there are some other new characters. There's a, I guess, sort of mid-century doll, pole-speak doll called Gabby Gabby, voiced by Christina Hendricks, and a series of truly frightening and upsetting ventriloquist dummies who are sort of the big bad of this movie. And then there's Ducky and Bunny, who are voiced

by Keegan-Michael Key and Jordan Peele. And they are stuffed animals that you would find pinned to a cork board at a carnival. all of those two those two characters coming from different environments and understanding what environments they come from and how they can't relate to the other toys who are owned versus toys who are sort of loners or don't have ownership and that concept of like where you belong and what you don't belong to and you know the sort of cliquish mentality that exists in society or at large it feels like a bit of a weighty theme to put on a movie like this, but it does feel very pointed. It does feel like they are specifically trying

to underline that. Would you agree? Yeah, I definitely would. And then on another level, my kids just loved Ducky and Bunny. I think they are processing that on some level that the difference between a 1950s toy in a posh antique store versus like ducky and bunny like on a board at a carnival you know they're processing that in some way but they can also just enjoy like the sequence where ducky and bunny are like plotting how they're going to attack the antique store owner you know including like going to her house while she's taking a bath like everybody in the theater is the sort of uproarious in that moment like it's sort of this probably the single funniest scene that i've seen in a kid's movie at least for my kids eyes but yeah that that stuff is all still there you know and sort of a late

moment where woody pins his sheriff badge on uh i'm forgetting her name who is the cowgirl on the cowgirl you know like i i that's something you see in a lot of movies like that kind of idea but but it's it's underplayed or at least relatively underplayed to other movies like that and and and yeah it's it's just it's a way to be effective in a way to work on dual levels without having to hammer at it necessarily yeah i thought specifically that scene that you're talking about with Ducky and Bunny imagining ways in which they could approach the antique store owner

just felt like a Key & Peele sketch. You know, it just felt like a really great Key & Peele sketch. And that was a smart way to kind of modernize a franchise

that has got 20 years on it. And these movies do that over and over again. But you mentioned, you know, your kids are watching this movie and they're probably absorbing these themes and maybe not there's i assume that your your eight-year-old

is not literalizing to you uh you know notions of creationism but do you think that as they get older they will process these movies as influential on the way that they think about the world i think so though i can't articulate exactly how. I was thinking about it today. It induces a lot of anxiety, I would think. The idea that each of your toys individually has its own personality and its own feelings, and all it really wants to do is play with you and have your attention, and it's really, really sad when you don't play with it like that would be like paralyzing i think to six-year-old me you know so on that level it's sort of terrifying what they might be internalizing about these movies but i the sort of general broad idea that like everyone is coming from a different perspective but everybody has feelings

and everybody you know feels that their feelings are the most important. And you just sort of have to balance that and respect that and appreciate that and just respect people. Just all these broad things that are taught in basically every kid's movie. I hope that they are internalizing that to a degree. And as you say, the diversity isn't the way it's portrayed in real life necessarily but you still get the idea that all these different kinds of toys coming from all different places and from all different backgrounds like sort of interacting together and forming a family together like that that's all really valuable and you know i hope they are internalizing it to a to a degree though i it's

it's hard to say exactly how they're going to feel about these movies you know when they're 18 when they're 22 when they're 40 you know god forbid but yeah it's just if it's if it's going to feel about these movies, you know, when they're 18, when they're 22, when they're 40, you know, God forbid. But yeah, it's just, if it's going to be purely nostalgic for them when they think back on it, or if they're getting more out of it emotionally, like right now than I think they are. Rob, let me ask you, if you didn't have kids, would you go see Toy Story 4 on a date? That's a good question. I'd like to think that i would i have you know it we'll get into this but i do think that toy story three was the first pixar movie that i saw on a date with my with my wife you know that we sort of treated as an adult movie as opposed to a kids

movie and so i i do think at this point, just talking to people at The Ringer, people at The Ringer were going to terrible kids movies, like Sherlock Gnomes or whatever, that I would not touch with a 10-foot pole if I didn't have a kid myself. But they're delighted by them, our co-workers, it seems, which is very bizarre to me. But I... Name names, Rob. Name names who loves sherlock gnomes never i i respect their privacy but i i do feel like pixar movies specifically have elevated to this to this place where they are treated as as capital a adult movies that can be enjoyed by capital a adults even without children like i I don't know if there are other... You don't see that necessarily in other Disney movies even at this point. But Pixar is regarded as the gold standard and the Oscar standard, or at least they used to be, not so much anymore. But yeah, I do think that we probably would get around to this. And also, my wife and I would go

to way more movies if we didn't have kids. And so on that level, you know, probably we would have seen it. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned the Oscars too, because the last time that Pixar had a best picture nominee was Toy Story 3 in 2010. And I haven't seen Toy Story 4 talked about much as a best picture nominee so far. And we, there has been a real dearth of summer movie best picture talk but i it's not completely ludicrous to imagine a world in which this movie got a nomination i guess it's also kind of interesting to look at the way that the academy views these movies too at least from my perspective i think inside out and coco both have huge huge reputations they're like they they are in the pantheon and we'll talk about kind of our five favorites individually as we get a little are in the pantheon and we'll talk about kind of our five favorites

individually as we get a little later in the show. But those movies I don't think really had too much of a chance in the awards races and the sequelization

of this stuff and the idea that it has a bigger brand I think is meaningful not just for the box office but for the way that we celebrate these movies. And that wasn't always true.

You know, when Disney was getting Oscar nominations for Beauty and the Beast, it didn't matter that there hadn't been a Beauty and the Beast one and that we celebrate these movies. And that wasn't always true. You know, when Disney was getting Oscar nominations for Beauty and the Beast, it didn't matter that there hadn't been a Beauty and the Beast one and that it was number two. It was just presumed to be understood to be a huge achievement.

And I think, unfortunately for Pixar, it's held against it a little bit that you have to road test the new one because you don't want to accidentally nominate cars for Best Picture. And so if they ever make an Inside Out 2, maybe that would be up for nomination. I was thinking recently too just from purely from a kind of box office and movie going perspective

i thought that maybe these movies were waning a little bit but in fact it turns out incredibles 2 made 608 million dollars which is by far the most of any pixar movie and you know as you look at miles's column and as we talk about kind of what these movies mean to not just our generation, but the generation below us and then the generation of children that you have, they're just legacy products now, you know, and they are filtered into people's lives for, you know, I think I might've said Toy Story 1 was 1999. It was actually 1995. So we're coming up on 25 years of movies in this universe and that they somehow feel connected. And even though they've made, I think this is the 21st Pixar movie, they somehow do feel of a piece. Would you say that's fair? any other way of saying it yeah like if you look at the last 10 pixar movies yeah it's been 10 years base nine years since toy story 3 you know in the last 10 years or so has relatively their failures i guess the good dinosaur in cars 3 was pretty bad monsters university was just okay but it also has inside out which is sort of crushing to me personally, but well-regarded, you know, Coco, Incredibles 2. Why do you think Incredibles 2 is the biggest one ever? Is that just a function of

the way the box office works now? Or what makes that one far and away the most successful Pixar movie ever in your view? There's probably two big factors. One is the international, which is that American movies are just in more theaters around the world than they ever have been. Well, there's a second thing, which is just the ticket prices are just in more theaters around the world than they ever have been to. Well, there's a second thing, which is just the ticket prices are just much higher. So the amount of money that a movie makes is a little bit distorting because it doesn't mean that means more people have seen it. Um,

but I mean, 608 to finding Dory, which made 486 million, that's a pretty wide chasm between one and two. And the third thing is it's a superhero movie. And right. That is the lingua franca of international movie going that is the one thing that translates no matter where you are is that kind of caped actioner and baked inside of a family story and you know the avengers thinks

it's a family story too but incredibles 2 is literally a family story there's i guess there's a universality to it i think it's also just really well made. I think it may not feel as intellectually consequential as what we can draw from a Toy Story or an Inside Out or something like that, but Brad Bird is one of the best. He's literally one of the best animation directors who has ever lived.

I guess it shouldn't be too shocking. I'm curious to see if Toy Story 4 has this kind of might. I feel like on the one hand, there are people who are very excited about it and will reliably go to any Pixar movie. And then there's a lot of people who are a little concerned about fatigue. And that has been the theme of a lot of the sequel stuff that we've been talking about, as you mentioned earlier in the show. What else, what else do you want to point out about, about this fourth installment? Any, anything jump out to you performance wise or about the idea or the stories?

Again, I'm just struck by how much my kids enjoyed it you know like my i have a problem sometimes getting my kids to talk about these movies any movies after they've seen them it's just like i was good it was fine you know maybe they laugh a few times maybe they can point to a scene or a character that they really liked like you know inside out my son at five i think he was at the time just loved anger just thought anger was funny you know i went to fao schwartz you know a couple months later and got him an anger doll you know like i'll get that kind of reaction but they really did really love this movie like in the moment and i think part of that was you know it was a full theater and a lot of

kids and it was just raucous in general and the parents were laughing a lot and the kids were laughing a lot but it just seemed like they had a closer emotional connection, like they were more engaged. I was at some point usually in the process of watching an hour and a half, a two-hour movie, like I'm worried that my kids are bored or restless, that they're climbing up the seats or they're just clamoring for more popcorn or whatever.

But there was just a level of intensity and engagement and enjoyment that was sort of palpable in a way that it has never been before. And I don't know if that's a function of them and engagement and enjoyment that was sort of palpable in a way that it has never been before and i don't know if that's a function of them getting a little older and a little more in the wheelhouse of this stuff of getting like really engaged with this stuff or if there was something specific to this movie that it was just so well made and so jokey and just just really precise in that way and so i again, again, like I walk in any Pixar movie

and I'm worried about my response. I figure my kids are going to be okay and I'm going to be a wreck. And it was just a very, very pleasant and lovely and surprising experience that I could just this time, just focus on my kids enjoying it and sort of get the larger sort of ennui

that's natural to Pixar in general and the Toy Story movies in particular. But it's just, this is just a movie that they can enjoy that was legitimately funny and that they legitimately laughed at the entire time. That's what I'm going to take away. Have you started showing your kids the extended comedy works of Louis Black yet? I feel like if they love anger, wait until they see real anger. We're going to start with just best of the daily show and just work up from there. Yeah, it's the Louis Black starter kid is coming very soon.

I'm amassing it as we speak. That's really great. I love the idea too of little kids' number one relationship with Tom Hanks being Woody and not Forrest Gump or, I don't know, Bachelor Party or Turner and Hooch or whatever. Where does it all start for you with Tom Hanks, Rob? Oh, Turner and Hooch, definitely. I mean, it's big. For me, it's certainly big, I think. And that's a movie, actually, now that I think of it, that we should show the kids. We're negotiating that. I showed them Star Wars for the first time like two weeks ago.

Finally, we sat down and watched Star Wars A New Hope. You know, my five-year-old was scared of it for a long time and was sort of on the fence about it. But finally, we sat him down. And what's interesting about that is that they've ingested all the Star Wars lore like long ago. Like they've read books, dramatizations. They have toys. Like they know the whole story. You know, they know who Luke Skywalker's father is.

Like it's just, it's been, they've ingested it as marketing by this point. And just the way that they're doing that to an extent with these movies even now is kind of fascinating to me. And just sort of working out when to start exposing them to the Marvel universe. Like my eight-year-old is sort of clamoring for it. You know, he had a Star Wars Spider wars spider verse party when he turned eight you know it's where we're moving on to a new phase where they are theoretically or at least my older one is is possibly able to process like warm and sure movies the marble movies you know not the dcu movies yet i hope but i it's it's it's interesting to watch them age and watch them react to these things

differently. And again, it was just very heartening to see them have a stronger engagement with a Pixar movie that was just them laughing at it the whole time. Clearly, they're getting a little older and a little more mature and a little more engaged with these things. And it's nice to have it manifest in this way before they start wanting to go see Guardians of the Galaxy 3 with me. Yeah. I think you, you started the countdown clock for when they get red pilled and start angrily tweeting at Ryan Johnson. That's a really, that's an exciting moment for any parent realizing that you've exposed your children. Please, please make sure your kids don't become evil, angry people. Yeah. I'll do what I can. Rob, let about pixar uh writ large which we've basically been

doing here but we love to do a little countdown a little top five on this show um yeah give me give me your number five favorite pixar film i went with wally which it's it feels like the flex to me i think that was the ninth pixar movie they were certainly well established at this point but this is like that we can make a movie out of anything moment at least from my perspective i want to say that i saw this myself in a theater in brooklyn on a friday night and i don't know that i'd ever done that with a previous pixar movie like maybe this is this relation like this is when i started taking these movies seriously as capital A adult movies. But WALL-E, the premise is so strange and so antithetical to the idea of a noisy kids movie where there always has to be something.

It's got to be blaring at you the whole time, right? And it's got to be this constant stream of dialogues and jokes and action. Long stretches of WALL-E are so serene and so quiet and so beautiful. It really is striking. And that didn't really feel like the point where they expanded what was possible from a Pixar movie and from a kid's movie. And my kids have watched that. And I think they really enjoyed it and really appreciated it and hadn't seen anything remotely like that before and like didn't have to take it as some revolutionary or profound thing but like it's the degree to which it can entertain them but sort of startle me you know with the maturity of it like that's impressive in and of itself yeah that's a great one that's not on my list it's very notable that

it comes from andrew stanton who i think is probably the most unsung figure in the Pixar story. He's obviously the guy behind Finding Nemo and Finding Dory. And after WALL-E, which you're right, was definitely cited as sort of,

it was almost like a Charlie Chaplin movie. You know, it was very little, very little dialogue reliant on like set pieces and music and a huge depth of emotion

and this sort of like big, big concept that was not that difficult to understand um and then he after wally he made john carter you remember john carter i managed to avoid that one i should avoid that one right that's one of the ones i should avoid yeah it's not very good very tough beat for riggins and uh you know it's sort of a notorious bomb and after that he essentially came back into the fold and he directed Finding Dorian. Of course, he has a screenwriting credit on Toy Story 4 and seems to have his fingers in

virtually every Pixar pod, which, you know, makes a lot of sense. My number five is Inside Out. So that's how you want to play it, old man? No dessert?

Oh, sure. We'll eat our dinner right after you eat this. Which we have kind of sort of talked about already. Is that on your list as well? It is not on my list, but I do. I have a grudging, appreciative, sort of tenuous relationship with it because it really was upsetting, you know, to me and like in an effective way but i did it really did shake me fundamentally just this this idea of watching again like a joyful kid become a sullen teenager and just the way that that's dramatized it's it's it's really it was really an intense experience for me honestly and to be sitting next to my kid who was just sort of oblivious at at least to my terror. It was a really strange experience for me.

But yeah, I get it. I do get it. Yeah, and I like the Pete Doctor trilogy of Pixar movies, which all seem to say something very explicit about existence and aging. Monsters, Inc. is his first movie, and Up is his second movie. And this, of course course was his third can I tell you the name of the new Pete doctor Pixar movie coming out in 2020 sure it's called soul oh no so that was that s-o-l-e is it about God no it's not about an anthropomorphized sneaker it's uh it's definitely about what what the human soul

is so yeah I'm gonna have my wife take them I'm gonna be I'm gonna be busy that busy that weekend what's your number four number four is Toy Story 3 something changed that day inside lots of something snapped she replaced us come on no she something snapped she replaced us come on no she only replaced you she replaced all of us didn't she which i believe was the first toy story that i saw honestly so maybe it's like

you know you love the first rolling stones album you hear that's probably not the right way to think about it but i yeah again i think i my wife and i saw that on a date and it's one of you know the first time that together we we treated one of these kids movies theoretically as an adult movie and i i think lotso the bear is a like was a really effective villain you know like all of these movies like gabby gabby and in toy story 4 like the villains are always just they want to be loved right they just want a kid they. You know, they're willing to do whatever it takes to like be loved by a kid again. And I feel like they, you know,

the Toy Story franchise as a whole has gotten really good at dramatizing that through the various characters. I think Lotso is the most effective, is like a villain and like an unredeemed villain in the end, you know? And again, like the trash compactor scene at the end like it was one of the more emotional reactions that i've ever had to a kids movie and this is

before i even have kids and i'm dealing with that whole aspect of it it was just it was really striking and it expanded for me anyway like what these movies were capable of and how i was capable of responding to them yeah it's a great one it's not on my list. I'm very curious to know if my number four is on your list given your trade. And it's Ratatouille. I know about the foie gras. The old standby used to be famous for it.

What does the chef have that's new? Someone has asked what is new? You? What did you tell them? What are you blathering about? Customers are asking what is new! New? Yes, what do I tell them? Well, what did you tell them? I told them I would ask! What are you blathering about? Customers are asking what is new! What should I tell them?

What did you tell them? I told them I would ask! Hmm, this is simple. Just pull out an old gusto recipe, something we haven't made in a while and... They know about your stuff. They like linguine soup. They are asking for food from linguine. A lot of customers like the soup. That's all we are saying.

Which has not come up in our conversation yet at all. Is Ratatouille on your list? It is not on my list. I did see it. I did really, really enjoy it. I don't remember a whole lot about it right now. I think it's one of the ones that would benefit most from my re-watching it. I think that I would really love it. I don't remember a whole lot about it right now. I think it's one of the ones that would benefit most from my rewatching it. I think that I would really love it and sort of expand my love for it if I did go back to it. What does it do for you? Well, it's about a rat. And,

you know, I'm a real rodent-like figure. And I just related to it on a rat-to-rat level. No, I mean, it's a movie that is about the power of creation and then the power of criticism. You know, like that is very much the on-the-surface theme. And so you've got obviously a rat, which is the bane of all kitchens, seeking to cook and create and build something of its own and make people happy by creating something. And you have Anton Ego, the world famous food critic who seeks to undermine anybody who is not up to his standards. And, you know, it's well-tried territory to talk about it from a critical perspective. But I think one of the reasons that um pixar movies are so beloved by critics is because they have a kind of clear vision of what it means to be cast aside or to be an outsider i think animators in particular don't necessarily feel specifically a part of the movie creation world they They don't feed, they're not in glamorous Hollywood. You know,

they're a bunch of people socked away in, you know, a Silicon Valley office space banging out animation until three o'clock in the morning. And likewise, with kind of the characters in their films,

and inevitably, I think the media sometimes conflates its relationship to the people who make things like this. And so this movie is like a real-time analysis of what criticism means.

And, you know, it's obviously, it's a delightful and funny movie. It's an all-time great voice performance by Patton Oswalt as Remy, the rat. But it's just a, it's a unique kind of thing because a lot of times when you meet a critic in a movie, you meet them in a situation like Lady in the Water

where M. Night Shyamalan has that monster eat the critic and yes I think Anton Ego you know certainly has a

warming moment but there's like a little bit of empathy even for his for his dark heart so that's my number four what about number three for you

number three for me is Up Good afternoon my name is Russell What about number three for you? Number three for me is Up. Good afternoon. My name is Russell, and I am a wilderness explorer in Tribe 54, Sweat Lodge 12. Are you in need of any assistance today, sir? No. I could help you cross the street. No.

I could help you cross your yard. No. I could help you cross your yard no i could help you cross your porch no well i gotta help you cross something uh no i'm doing fine um uh which is maybe a little basic in the sense like the opening sequence you know the history of their marriage up to and including you know the death of his wife like that's that's sort of the quintessential maximum emo pixar sequence for me you know as i recall that's another movie my wife and i saw on a date you know and maybe the first time that i actively cried at one of these movies which is again maybe a basic opinion then even more basic answer may be i really like i believe his name is kevin is is kevin the the blue bird who they're all chasing oh yeah

i think that's his name and and gave him. I think that's his name. And I just, I found him very silly and delightful. So it works, you know, as a high and a low culture kind of thing. It appealed to the kid in me and also the weeping adult in me. Yeah, I cheated and put the up opening montage at 2B on my list, which is not something I usually like to do. I agree. If you don't have some sort of emotional reaction to that first 10 minutes of the movie, then you are not a human.

That's my honest opinion. That should be the Blade Runner test. Yeah. Are you a replicant? We'll have to get Chris and Amanda in here and kind of run that by them in real time. That'd be a great video, forcing them to watch it and seeing if they break or don't. It's kind of the Marina Abramovich test. How long can you stare at this sequence? The artist is present. My number three is The Incredibles. We talked about The Incredibles 2.

I don't have children, but I do have a family. And I understood this movie on a real-time level as a sibling i think it's a really good example of kind of the way that siblings interact with each other and what they um what they mean to each other and what they what they how they can oppose one another and then as i've gotten older and when the incredibles 2 came out i see that it's also very much a story about marriage anyway what you knocked down a building? It was on fire, structurally unsound. It was coming down anyway. Tell me you haven't been listening to the police scanner again. Look, I performed a public service.

You act like that's a bad thing. It is a bad thing, Bob. Uprooting our family again so you can relive the glory days is a very bad thing. Reliving the glory days is better than acting like they didn't happen. And a story about the way that there's like a very delicate balance between masculinity and femininity in many male-female marriages. And it's just a very, it's a fun and zippy and kind of like spy style movie. But again, like I can't help but return to the depth of theme in all these movies. I'm routinely impressed by it.

What's number two for you? Incredibles is number two. Oh, perfect. Actually, I, and I, yeah, the marriage, especially like going back to it now, the relationship between Mr. Incredible and Elastigirl and like the fights they have. And like the subtext of a lot of kids' movies

speaking directly to the dads is like, stop trying, stop living in your own head. Stop trying to replay past glories and just like be a good dad like that's sort of the the sub theme of the vast majority of kids movies and i think that the incredibles gets that across really well you know and so it works on that sort of sneakily profound level and also i i think my favorite pixar sequence just for visual inventiveness is when elastic girl is in the enemy lair with all the doors and the key cards that keep opening and closing and like her various limbs keep getting caught behind various doors. And like she has to punch a whole lot of henchmen without seeing them.

Like I just I rewatch that sequence. It's like two minutes or whatever every once in a while. Like just just as just for visual flair, just for delight. It's one of my favorite scenes in any Pixar movie. Yeah. There's, there's bravura filmmaking, you know, and we don't necessarily think of that sort of thing in animated movies because there's a level of control and less human element going on.

But there's something about, and I talked to Brad Bird about this actually, when he was here last year about The Incredibles 2, but he really stages set pieces as well as any director. And that sounds, you know, a little bit, maybe a little bit more frivolous than usual if it's not Bruce Willis hanging from a skyscraper, but he's just got, he's got a knack for the kinetic ability to make people excited by an action scene. And I love that about those movies too. My number two is Finding Nemo. First day of school! First day of school! Wake up! Wake up! Come on! First day of school! I don't want to go to school. Five more minutes.

Not you, Dad. Me. Okay. Get up! Get up! Time for school! Time for school! Time for school! Time for school! Boy, oh boy, oh boy! Whoa! Nemo! First day of school! Nemo, don't move! Don't move!

Is Finding Nemo on your list? It is not. I, you know, and I like those movies just fine. Both of them. Finding Dory, I took the kids to and they really enjoyed it, you know, and it was sneakily profound and all of that. Like, yeah, but it didn't quite make my list, but I have fond memories of that. There's this school of fish in Finding Nemo, I think, that sort of imitates.

Hey, hey, you like impressions? Okay, just like in rehearsals, gentlemen. So what are we? Take a guess. sort of imitates. lobster saw that what lots of legs live in the ocean close enough oh it's the whale of a tale i'll tell you a lot of whale somebody please give me directions somebody please give me directions people and i i sort of appreciated that on the same level as as it's the last girl in the enemy lair or kevin from up like there's just there's just some great visual gags in that movie from my perspective but it wasn't quite on my list yeah i think this was the movie you know forgive this phrase but this was the movie where i was like oh pixar is here to stay like this is a an established brand in doing this sort of thing because if you look at the movies that came before obviously toy story was a major phenomenon and a bug's's Life, while a good movie,

I think was considered a little bit of a letdown from Toy Story. And then they immediately followed that up with Toy Story 2 four years later. And then Monsters, Inc., which is a good movie,

a movie that I like. Sure. But maybe not an event. And I think Finding Nemo was really where the hardcore heartstrings story started for a lot of people.

You know, that relationship between Nemo and, you know, that, that relationship between, um, Nemo and what is Bobby? What's his father's name? Um, Marlon Marlon. Thank you.

It's the joke on the type of fish that he is not exactly. Yeah. Voiced by my, my hero, Albert Brooks. Um, and that, that,

that fear of losing your child is being so the scariest possible thing that can happen. I think indicated in many ways where Pixar movies were going. Those relationships seem to be the bedrock of the stories that they were trying to tell. So I don't know. I have a warm place in my heart for it. Also, I think it's one of those movies where when I was still living in New York and I was seeing my nephews on a regular basis, that was just the movie they wanted to watch every time I saw them. So I probably have seen it more than any other Pixar movie and that has left a lasting impression.

I figured Albert Brooks would be a big part of that for you. We should probably shout out Randy Newman, since this is you and me talking. It's just a central figure to the Toy Story universe. And yeah, our conception of Randy Newman versus any kid's perception is just totally different. And that dichotomy is fascinating in and of itself. But yeah, to have Albert Brooks being the vehicle through which they express the angst of losing a kid, yeah, that's a big step forward for Pixar as a whole,

if only for the two of us. Yeah, it's perfect. And I don't think that Albert Brooks ever really made a movie about children. He's made a movie about relationships and parents and work and death. And he, he tackles big themes, religion. You know, he's got all big themes in his movies, but this kind of stands in as the Albert Brooks, what it's like to have children movie. So I love that too. And you know, Randy Newman, God damn it. If you don't know about Randy Newman, you got to read up. You got to listen up.

That's the man. And it's not just the man because of Toy Story he is one of the five greatest songwriters the last 75 years yeah I said it absolutely what about number one

for you Rob that would be Coco oh wow yeah speak on it. I mean, I think it's my favorite movie of 2017 overall. And I don't think I've had a visceral emotional reaction as pure and as intense and as sort of harrowing and also as delightful as like the end. You know, the kid singing Remember Me. Remember me.

Though I have to travel far Remember me Each time you hear a sad guitar Know that I'm with you The only way that I can be You know, to his great-grand and it's it was just a beautiful thing you know where i'm sitting there crying and it's that's not quite an inside out level where like my kid has no access to what's like really emotional for me about this necessarily like i i think that he my son got that too what what made that sad and also sort of beautiful like it sort of unified

the kid and parent reactions but just the overall inventiveness of it and just the sweep of the story and like the surprises and the plot twists and everything like it just the the best most fully realized universe you know any genre any movie that i saw that year for sure i love that you know coco is probably right on the outside looking in along with a couple of others on my list. But beautiful movie. Really great music movie. You know, really a terrific musical. And I'm such a fan of that movie.

I assume they're going to do a Coco too. Has that been announced? I feel like that is inevitable. I don't. Do I want that? Do you want that? I don't know. Nothing ever really dies, you know, Pharrell told us. Rob, my number one is Toy Story.

Have you seen Toy Story? I am Mrs. Nesbitt! Snap out of it, Buzz! I'm sorry. You're right. I am just a little depressed, that's all. I can get through this. Oh, I'm sorry you're right I am just a little depressed that's all I can get through this

oh I'm a champ I can't even fly out of a window I have I had to go back after Toy Story 3 you know and I think I've watched it solo and then I watched it again with my kids like but yeah I've gotten hip to that one

I was late pass but yes it's very good here's one thing that's good about it this is gonna seem silly but it's 81 minutes wow is that right make more movies 81 minutes now this is obviously the first Pixar movie so it was a maiden voyage and it was experimental and there was something very different

about it and I can't overstate and I wrote about this when we did a ranking of Pixar movies, I think around the release of Coco. I can't overstate what a radical shift it was for animation and how mind-blowing the way that those characters looked really were. And we take it for granted now as we go see Minions 5 and Ice Age 9 and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 14, but Toy Story changed movies.

And it's amazing that we are here 25 years later or so looking at the fourth one of these and analyzing it on such a distinct and deep level. But that first movie, while I think from a story perspective, maybe not original per se, the way that it looked and felt was just utterly new. It felt like a,

it felt like a, the way that movies changed when the sound came into the picture, the way that movies changed when Technicolor started. It was a radical,

scientific innovation that also helped make film better and deeper and wider and got more people interested in it. And just for that historical reason alone, it has to be at the top of my list.

I think that's the only Pixar movie that's ever spooked my kids a little bit with like the, the sort of mutant toys that the bad kid creates that sort of, you know, come out from the shadows and are sort of menacing. Like there's, there's an, there's an under cut of,

you know, there's an evil to him an inherent evil to him that i think we did some fast forwarding at least the first time that we watched that movie which i don't again think has happened with any pixar movie since but you know that's not a bad thing but yeah that was maybe one of my kids first introductions to like actual scariness in a cartoon product rob Rob, as we were talking, Bobby Wagner sent us a link to Coco 2 colon Return to the Land of the Living,

which apparently is a Pixar movie coming out October, November, 2020. I don't, I'm having a hard time confirming. It's got a release date. I mean, fine. I don't have any sort of existential qualm in general about Pixar becoming more of a sequel factory, you know, and I don't think I'm one of

these people who will have the original ruined for me by any subsequent movies. But yeah, that felt like a pretty fully realized story. You know what I'm saying? I do. I'm absolutely going to go see that, but I'm going to feel a little queasy about it, at least for the first 10 minutes before I start crying again. Rob, thank you for holding it together throughout this conversation. I appreciate your composure, your wit, your sort of fatherly wisdom. It's greatly appreciated.

Oh, God. I'm doing what I can. Thank you, Rob. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. And thank you to Rob Harvilla for sitting in and sharing all of his fatherly advice. If you like the show, please rate and review it at Apple or Spotify or anywhere you get your podcasts. And tune in next week

where I'll be interviewing Gary Dauberman, screenwriter turned director of Annabelle Comes Home. He's had a big hand in the Conjuring universe over the years. So we're going to talk about

how he expanded and how he worked inside of what has become one of the most successful collections of movies that we have right now. See you then.