The Big Picture - ‘Velvet Buzzsaw’ Director Dan Gilroy on Genre-Hopping with Netflix | Interview (Ep. 122)

Episode Date: February 1, 2019

Dan Gilroy joins the show to talk his Netflix-backed horror-thriller art-world satire, directing Jake Gyllenhaal, and the commercialization of creativity. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Dan Gilroy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Liz Kelley. We just launched a brand new golf podcast called Fairway Rollin', where Joe House is joined by a rotating cast of Ringer and golf world personalities every week. They'll break down the latest in golf headlines and news from social media, keep up with everything Tiger Woods, and delve into the world of golf gambling. The first episode was just released earlier this week, with new episodes being published every Monday going forward. You can download and subscribe to Fairway Rolling on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Art can be as much for the artist as it can be for the audience. And I think in this film, I was really interested in the relationship between commerce and art in today's world. And the relationship is commerce and art in today's world. And the relationship is a very rocky one. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most fascinating filmmakers in the world.

There's been a lot of talk about the holes that Hollywood has left open that Netflix original movies are filling. Rom-coms, horror movies, visionary personal dramas like Roma, basically anything that doesn't feature a superhero or a dinosaur or a superhero dinosaur. But one category we haven't discussed much is the weirdo mashup. Dan Gilroy's new movie Velvet Buzzsaw

is a weirdo mashup of a high order. One part thriller, one part satire, one part horror, all parts gory fun. This send-up of the modern art world is Gilroy's third film as a director. A member of the Gilroy clan, along with his filmmaker brother Tony, editor brother John, and his late father, the writer Frank Gilroy, Dan spent the better part of three decades in Hollywood as a screenwriter. Now with Velvet Buzzsaw, he's a full-blown writer-director. The cast of his new movie features Jake Gyllenhaal,

who the director last teamed up with in his razor-sharp 2014 film Nightcrawler, along with Gilroy's real-life wife Renee Russo, John Malkovich, and hilarious Toni Collette. I talked to Gilroy about just how tricky it is to combine all those genres, which recent film he's most jealous of, and the horror movies he watched to prepare for Velvet Buzzsaw. Here's Dan Gilroy. Delighted to be joined by one of my favorite writers and directors, Dan Gilroy.

Dan, thanks for coming in. I'm delighted to be here. Dan, you make movies that go inside of kind of illicit or complicated worlds, particularly your directorial work. You know, especially in Nightcrawler, we saw this sort of seedy TV crime news. And in Roman J. Israel, we see kind of the sort of the remnants of post-60s activism and how those collide with modern society. Velvet Buzzsaw is inside of the art world in a very fun and unusual way. Are you a big art world person or was this kind of a new entry for you? I'm an art person in general.

I certainly keep track of what's going on in the contemporary art world. I like going to contemporary art galleries and museums. I'm not a collector. I would say I'm an aficionado. And I've always been intrigued with the world. When I came up with the idea, which we can talk about a little bit, what I liked about it was I'm aware and the research really bore out that contemporary art was really a movement that started to provoke and challenge. And it's been utterly co-opted. And I'm not the one making this announcement.

It's been utterly co-opted by big business and money. And it's a world that I see as off its axis. It's sort of like wobbling. And there's an inherent dramatic conflict in there that I like is off its axis. It's sort of like wobbling and there's an inherent dramatic conflict in there that I like from a narrative standpoint. So I was very intrigued with that world and you're right. I do sort of examine worlds. It feels like now when I look back at these three films that I've sort of picked up rocks and looked at the things scurrying around underneath, not in a moral way, but they're there. And as you said, I'm trying to think,

why do I do that? I think the only thing I can come up with is I'm always looking for things that haven't been done or trying to. I sort of see myself, I see all writers and artists sort of as prospectors. You're wandering around the desert, kicking rocks, trying to see things. And it just feels like I try to find worlds that I haven't seen fully examined in a movie before. So maybe that's why there's a possible trend. Yeah. And I feel like the idea of kind of commerce and wealth colliding with ethics is a huge part of what you do too. You know, it really goes into this too, or sort of there are these figures in the film who represent what is the purpose of art? Is it a personal expression? Is it meant to be some sort of evocation of the experience of one's life versus people who know that it's just good for business?

When did you start to kind of fuse these two ideas and decide that you could make kind of a thriller horror satire out of that? Okay. So the real Genesis was I was at Dia Beacon like two years ago. I was in the basement, the closing time in the winter, I was alone. And there was a video exhibit, which was wonderful with like rats running around in dentist chairs. And I thought, man, this would be a great world for a thriller. Then very quickly, I thought, wow, there's all this thematic stuff that I'd love to talk about, what I know about the contemporary art world and the money aspect, the idea of what I feel about art and creativity. That all became a big part of it. And then I thought, I think that satire slash humor slash fun are very underutilized and underappreciated

vehicles to transmit anything you want, including a relevant idea. So the bar that I set for myself was to direct and write, write and direct a satirical thriller, which is what we have. It's a mixed genre film. Yeah. And it was just a wild amalgam of things that came together

that formed the script. I'm so interested in the idea of smashing those genres together. I don't think you've really ever done anything quite this high pitch that has this many different kinds of styles in it. Not this high pitch, but you know what's interesting? When I did Nightcrawler, I didn't really realize the humor in it, but when I sat with audiences, there was laughter. And I suddenly thought, what I walked away from with Nightcrawler was I thought, laughter in a thriller format can

be a release. And I thought, wow, that's really cool. You have thrills and then like you release it with humor. And I just liked, but yes, we have taken it to another level with Velvet Buzzsaw. How much of that is working with Jake Gyllenhaal and kind of what he brings to a really also similarly kind of high pitched performance, you know, but there's something funny, but intense about what he is doing in your films. I think Jake brings an enormous part of, of, of the satire to this film. And I said, whenire, I'm hoping that people in the world will see it as a realistic film. We did our research. I believe it's a realistic film on that level.

These are not caricatures. But Jake and Tony Collette and John Malkovich, Rene, they all brought, I won't say a heightened energy to it, but they brought a Dickensian sort of energy to it. And I really do love Dickens and these larger cast. And they're identifiable people somehow. I can think back, Noah Baumbach made a movie a couple of years ago, also for Netflix,

called The Meyerowitz Stories. Right, sure. I liked it. There was also some aspects of the art world there. And I had fun picking out who I thought some of the characters were modeled after.

Now, I suspect that some of these characters are maybe composites or maybe they're modeled after people. What's that like to be creating something, but being influenced by figures in the real world? My research never took me to specific people. So I couldn't say that it was modeled on any particular people. There are types of people in all worlds. And I think I started with the types and worked from there. Yeah. Who are those types? The critic, the curator?

Yeah. You know, if you were going to write a movie about the Kinley and Brayart world within five minutes of research and you go I think I'll have an artist I think I'll have a critic I'll have a gallery owner these characters sort of just start to identify themselves

what was hard about it what did you inevitably you must have run into some roadblocks when you were creating this world what didn't you anticipate I didn't realize how hard Mick Shandra was

yeah you know it's funny one of my favorite films oddly enough is American Psycho and I think it's a really beautifully done film. And I always knew that was Mick Genre. And she does it so effortlessly and it works so well. And I just love everything about it. I thought, wow, Mick Genre. This couldn't be that tough. And Mick Genre, you're dialing in at every moment, you know, a different genre potentially. And that was hard.

On a practical level, how are you communicating that in a script? Because you have to signal to actors, this is actually supposed to be funny or does it all, it should be all clear that you're going for four or five different styles within five pages of one another. I never indicate in any way that it's humorous or funny. I always feel that if it's funny or humorous, it'll reveal itself. And I'm surprised at times by what people laugh at, and I didn't expect it. What in particular has shocked you in this one? Renee's character at one point is talking about, she dresses down Josefina and that gets a laugh.

It's like they think that's funny. When Josefina says, you know, what kind of spirit? And she says, I don't know the varieties. There's just things that I just sort of took literally that seem to make people laugh, which I like. I'm always, whenever I watch with an audience, I'm always very happy when the first laugh comes. Was there anything that you watched ahead of time and thought, I want to kind of model it after this, or this is a clear inspiration for me just from a filmmaking perspective? I watched Robert Altman's The Player, which I've seen 20 times, and MASH and Nashville, because those are films with an ensemble cast.

And I was really intrigued with using an ensemble cast. When Robert Ellsworth, our cinematographer, sat down, we watched Rosemary's Baby and The Exorcist because we came up with the idea that we wanted to create a believable world with believable characters that are experiencing unbelievable events. We were trying to make it credible, and we that that was, those were two template films. But so ensemble work, what was that like for you?

Because the two films that you've directed are primarily oriented around this single figure, right? And you're focusing on Roman, you're focusing on Lou and Nightcrawler. What was it like to try to have to bounce around from, I mean, is it ultimately like seven or eight key figures? It was liberating and fun. I like to play pool

and I always saw them as pool balls hitting each other and bouncing off into different other pool balls. It was fun to leave fun. I like to play pool, and I always saw them as pool balls hitting each other and bouncing off into different other pool balls. It was fun to leave one place and go to another. In terms of shooting, every day a different great actor would come onto the set. Malkovich and David Diggs and Tony Collette and Zowie.

There are all these great actors. Natalia Dyer coming on, Billy Magnuson, Tom Sturridge. It's always great on that level. What about directing? I'm always interested in, This is your third film now as a director. What's changed? What have you learned? What do you feel like you've gotten better at in the handful of films that you've made? I do consider myself more of a writer than a director. And over the last three films, I like to think that I've learned more about the process of directing, the visual aspect of it, lenses, the cameras, what you can

do in the DI, understanding the history of cinematic language and really watching what other great directors have done and getting a sense of what's possible and really being schooled in directing and visual arts. You mentioned Robert Elswit. You really have pulled together a lot of really talented people. Your costume designers are amazing. They're like a huge part of telling this story. Just what is that process like where you're sort of building your team out now? Do you have like a, a sort of a repertory company of behind the scenes folks that you're working with on all your films? The key people are Jennifer Fox, my producer, John Gilroy, my brother is my editor, Robert Elswit, cinematographer. And then there's like

about a half a dozen other department heads and department people that I like to pull in. And that just, I think, I think you find that people who do this and are allowed to do it repetitively, they do collect the team of people because it just feels good to show up on the set knowing that. And it's fun. It's fun to work with people you've worked before and you trust. Are you sort of a master visionary type that has everything sketched out ahead of time, or do you let them bring ideas to you and then you curate? I am utterly collaborative. I certainly have ideas, but I am always looking for a better idea. I work with people in their departments that are far superior and more talented than I am. So I'm always listening to them and all of them bring ideas

to the table. I encourage it on every level. You mentioned your brother, John, who edits your films. Obviously your brother, Tony is also a writer. I'm always interested in creative families. And of course your wife appears in the film. so how much of this stuff are you showing to people beforehand and like vetting and creatively uh trying to get a sense of what works and what doesn't given that you have all these creative figures in your life i write the script on my own then i show it to my wife my brother tony my brother john a few other people whose opinions i really trust i i absolutely listen to criticism and i incorporate it once i start shooting, I'm leaning very heavily then

into Jennifer Fox. Jennifer Fox, I also show the script to. Then I'm leaning into Jennifer Fox, Robert Ellsworth, my brother John or my principal people

that I'm really listening to as we're cutting it together, shooting it and cutting it together. That's the brain trust. So given that this is slightly different, what was their feedback on this one

when they first read it? This is wild. This is crazy. This is surreal. This is crazy. This is surreal. This is like, I'm not going to say the compliments, there were definitely compliments,

but they were enthusiastic. Was there anything that didn't work that they were like, what if you did this? No, there was like, this is going to be a really ambitious film

to pull off and let's go for it. That sort of was, nobody was like, oh man, this is a slam dunk. This has got people going to be blinded. It was just like, nobody was like, oh man, this is a slam dunk. This is going to be, people are going to be lined up.

It was just like, I'm working with people who want to challenge themselves and they saw this as a very challenging script. Jim Bissell, our production designer, was like,

oh my God, this is like such an ambitious thing. I can't wait to jump into this. Yeah, it must have been a feast for him. Oh, he did a great job, I think.

Tell me about working with Netflix. We have a lot of preconceived notions about what it means to make a movie for Netflix now. I'm curious what your experience was like if you had a kind of a traditional studio notes process. How different was it from some of the first films that you'd made? So there were other people who were interested in the script. And we went to them.

And then we went to Netflix. And one of the things that first stood out was we had a number below the line, which we needed to make the movie. And the studios just, for whatever reason, couldn't come up with that number. They were too low. Netflix was like, we'll give you what you needed to make the movie. And the studios just, for whatever reason, couldn't come up with that number. They were too low. Netflix was like, we'll give you what you need to make the movie. And Scott Stuber and Colin Creighton, and I met Ted Sarandos.

He wasn't in the room, but he certainly admits this ethos, was like, we want to support the artists. We want to do what you want to do. These were all very encouraging things for a filmmaker. I'm a storyteller filmmaker. The only thing I really want is for people to see the work. They don't have to like it. I just love to be exposed. I feel like there's ideas in there that I'm trying storyteller filmmaker. The only thing I really want is for people to see the work. They don't have to like it. I just love to be exposed because I feel like there's ideas in there that I'm trying to transmit. So Netflix, true to their word through the entire process, supported me,

Jen, the entire team and things that we needed to make the film. They were always there. I'm an older guy and I only know the theatrical experience. And I was unsure, should I go with Netflix? And I remember going online and there was an article about Netflix. And then there was a comment that somebody said, the first comment was, Netflix is going to kill the theatrical experience. And then there was like 50 comments. Oh, you must live in New York or LA because where I live, I can't see any of this stuff. You know, oh, what an elitist.

And I suddenly thought, wow, it's such an interesting thing that there's so many people who don't have access to the things that you and I have in LA and New York. And that was really eye-opening. I thought, here's this democratization of a platform. And I love that. I love that on Friday, globally, people have the right to see this movie if they so choose.

And that is just a wonderful thing for any artist or filmmaker, I think. The last thing is, what is a theatrical experience? What is the definition of it now? Is it 500 people in a theater? Is it 100? Is it 50? Is it two people on a Friday night in front of a flat screen? To me, it is. That's the theatrical experience to me. If it's one person, I mean, I think the theatrical experience is the definition of it has changed. It's going to have to. That's the world we live in.

Yeah, and your movie too, you do have movie stars and it has the feeling of kind of like an event movie in some ways from the 80s to the 90s. It's very sort of

mid-budget, high genre and that, we always talk about how those movies have disappeared from the cineplex and,

you know, Netflix is obviously making strides to bring a lot of those kinds of movies back. Is there any part of you that will miss the kind of like box office quality around some of this stuff or just sort of the pomp and circumstance that comes with the theatrical? To me, it's always enjoyable to watch a film in a theater where other people are laughing and enjoying and crying.

But we live in a world where the traditional studios have centered much of their energy on branded entertainment. And I'm not judging. That's what they're doing. That's their business model. And I think, as you just sort of pointed out, they've left behind an enormous narrative entertainment world that many people want. And Netflix, God bless them, have stepped in and with great care and love are fostering. I mean, Roma, it's my favorite film of the year. I'm going to vote for the Academy Award.

People may not agree, but I feel it is. And I would like to think that when they win their Academy Award, this argument of whether Netflix makes films or not will be put to bed. That argument's over. They make films. They make films that are worthy of any award that people are giving. And I think this time, you know, if Roma wins and other films win, I think in a year or two, this not even argument or discussion is going to be ancient history, which it should be at this point. There's one other aspect of this that is so interesting to me.

I feel like there's a new part of the equation with a Netflix movie where I don't know how much of the bird box kind of phenomenon you followed. But is it relevant to you if your movie kind of becomes like a meme or something on the internet that is significant? Because I feel like one, Velvet Buzzsaw has a lot of things that people could pull out and could become like very memorable moments. But two, is that like a new barometer for success in a way, if people are creating content around the story that you've told? I certainly am aware of the marketing of a film and days, memes and things taken from films are part of the marketing. So it's relevant on that way. I would like to see that for Netflix's sake.

They entrusted me with a sum of money and I respect that. And I hope it does well for them. I'm not really that interested in it. I hope people like it. At this point, I'm sort of making movies as much for myself as for other people. And I've sort of turned a corner a for myself as for other people. And I've sort of turned a corner a little bit for better or worse. Hopefully I don't stray too far. That sounds like a really peaceful place to be in.

Well, you know where I came from, and I've discussed this a few times before, but I worked on Superman Lives, which was the debacle of all time. So epic that they made a documentary about it. I've seen it. It's fascinating. All right. So I worked for a year and a half on Superman Lives. And as we were getting down to the wire, they pulled the plug two weeks before, lost a lot of money, but I went into the office, they pulled the plug and it was literally my worst nightmare for a year. It's like, this was going to happen. I got my car, drove down to Santa Monica. I'm sitting on the beach and I'm just processing everything that's just happened over the last year. And I'm, and I suddenly realized watching the waves that I could have written the words on the sand and the waves could have just washed them away. That's how relevant it was. And that was

a shocking concept. And then, I don't know, a half hour later, I'm still sitting there. I thought, it doesn't matter. I got something out of this process. This was something that I did as much for myself. This was not an invalid thing that just happened. And when I finally stood up at sunset, I resolved that I was in it at this point doing this as much for myself as for other people. And these notions are in Velvet Buzzsaw. The end of Velvet Buzzsaw ends with John Malkovich, which is literally what I experienced. The idea that there's an outsider artist who's creating art as a cathartic experience for childhood trauma. Art can be as much for the artist as it can be for the audience.

And I think in this film, I was really interested in the relationship between commerce and art in today's world. And the relationship is a very rocky one. The quality of a work can't be judged by the number of clicks or views or dollar paid. I'm not saying that success diminishes a work, but it in no way defines it. So I'm sort of speaking to two different groups here. I'm speaking to people who monetize art, saying art is more than a commodity.

Let's not ever forget that because I think sometimes we do. And I'm also speaking to artists. If you can become a brand, if you can repeat yourself and become a brand, God bless you. If that's what you want, that's fine. I don't judge that at all.

But I think there, I look at creativity as sort of a knife edge and you can blunt it if you're not careful with repetition. And these are themes that are in the film. So I'm sort of, I'm throwing ideas out there amidst the satire that you've experienced. Yeah. It's so interesting. I wonder if you have heard from anyone in the art world since you've started showing the film to people and what their reaction to it is. I haven't heard yet. I feel very secure in our research and all the elements. And I'll tell you, last week I finally watched The Price of Everything on HBO. I was going to ask you if you've seen it. I saw it a week ago and everything that these titans in the industry talk about are things that are in our film. I identified that. I wrote this down in my notes here. It's so eerie how so much of what you're

hitting on and essentially mocking there are people doing in real time in this documentary. It's fascinating. And Jake's character at one point says, when Tony Collette is asking him about money and where it's all going, and Jake says, on the money question, everybody's talking about it. And in my research, everybody is talking about what they're talking about, the price of everything. Everybody knows that something's wrong. Somehow, it's not like,

I don't think it can be stopped. Money can't be stopped. The more money, the more fuel. It's like trying to stop a bonfire. It's not going to stop. But people are trying to figure out where it's going. What is it?

What does it mean? Does it diminish? Does it do this? It's a very interesting time for contemporary art, I think. Yeah, I mean, do you see some of the do this? It's a very interesting time for contemporary art, I think. Yeah. I mean, do you see some of the same struggles for yourself as a filmmaker? Do you feel any kind of crunch, even though you're in this peaceful moment? The only, the crunch I feel is that I'm in an industry, which is in a transitional phase

because of the traditional studios going one way and Netflix and other people coming and feeling that that's interesting to me. The idea as somebody who creates that, like I said, I'm trying to create more for myself now than for other people. I'm trying to turn my back a little bit on all the noise and trying to, I feel that if you create, look, it took me a long time, but in Nightcrawler, I feel like I found my voice. Whatever my voice is, is in Nightcrawler. I believe it's in Roman. I believe it's in this. So I'm just trying to follow my voice. I'm trying to create things that are relevant to me. And that brings its own piece at this point. Tell me a little bit about Roman, because I don't think that there was enough

conversation about it. I think it was a little bit overlooked, even though Denzel was acknowledged. I think it's a really interesting movie, really well made. What's your sort of, how do you look back on it now a few years removed from it? I'm tremendously proud of it for myself and for all the people who worked on it particularly for Denzel

I mean I discussed this when it was out but really Roman to me is the story of the burden of belief he's a character who's carried a sort of symbolic cross for so long and he can't hold it up anymore, and he's going to drop it. And to me, that is the most human of all things. We are all going to not meet our standards at some point.

And the ultimate message for Roman is that it's about redemption. It's not about failure. It's about finding a way out of something. And when you turn your back on everything you believe in and you suddenly say, oh, my God, how could this have happened? Where can you go? And forgiving yourself and forgiving the circumstances, that is an elevating experience that I was interested in. So I'm very proud of the film. When you're writing, does the theme come first or does the idea, the sort of setup come first? Idea always comes first. My father was a writer, told us from a very early age, never bore. You cannot bore.

So I honestly think the first and foremost job of any artist on some level is to engage. You can put slash entertain, but you have to engage people. And I'm looking for vehicles that engage an audience and that become sort of Christmas trees that I can hang ideas on. Let me ask you, it struck me as I was watching this movie, you have a real knack for names. Your character names are very creative. And in this film in particular, they're sort of really elevated. But where does stuff like that come from?

Do you spend a lot of time trying to grab something that will really wow people or kind of knock them off their feet? The idea comes from, I am an enormous Charles Dickens fan. And one of the things I loved about Dickens was he saw a name as a vehicle to tell you something about the character. So I could spend a day on a character's name. And I have spent days on a character's name. I have lists of names.

I have files of names. I put names, one name, and I'm always experimenting looking Morph Vanderwalt, John Don Don, Redora Hayes. I just, these, these are names that I like. I just love names. Yeah. And I find that your characters are saying those names frequently in the film, you know, it's so much fun. They have to ring out in some way. I find that humorous. That's great. Dan, a couple more questions. One, I'm curious, what's the last movie you've seen that you're jealous of? I am jealous of Roma. Yeah. What was it about that? Quran has reminded us that there's nothing more dramatic than human small events framed in the right way. That for me, there are scenes in Roma that rival any spectacle being made on any budget level

they're just I was as engrossed in that film as it went as anything that I've ever seen and and these are these are these are deep undercurrents that are not evident they seem like they shouldn't be so important but but when you frame them the way he's framed them so masterfully they become so powerful and I just think it's it's it's a reminder of the potential for drama among people away from spectacle. And I'm only jealous in the sense that, I'm not jealous. I admire that he picked up the mantle and said, look, people, life, this is really dynamite stuff if you can look at it the right way. Don't forget about it. Do you have a checklist of the kinds of films that you want to be able to make in the future in your career? None. So how do you figure out where to go? It's just an idea.

It's just suddenly an idea suddenly seems really relevant. I have ideas for really dumb, broad comedies that I, once in a while I threatened to do. I have it. I should, right? I have an action film I want to do. I have, I, I, it's just an idea comes to you. I like, like I remember watching a slumdog millionaire and I thought, man, that writer, cause I based on a book, I think must've been so excited the day they came up with the idea of the game show quiz that became a vehicle to tell a story and flashback.

That's like, if I'd come up with that idea, I just would've, I go, that's just too cool an idea. Ideas are,

have these shapes to them and if you look at them, they're relevant to you. Suddenly you can see them, other people can't see them, but ideas suddenly just leap out and go,

look at me. They sort of have a structure to them and you become, oh my God, that's just such a cool little thing. It's like a toy you can play with. So what are you doing next? I'm writing an original spec, another one set in Los Angeles at night. God help me.

At night? Yes, another night movie in LA. I thought you would have learned by now. I know. But you know what's funny? Shooting at night in LA is fantastic. After 10 o'clock, there's no traffic. I noticed there were a couple of very good LA moments in the new film as well. Yeah, we shot, but I love shooting LA at night in LA is fantastic. After 10 o'clock, there's no traffic. I noticed there were a couple of very good LA moments

in the new film as well. Yeah, we shot, but I love shooting LA at night. It's empty. It's deserted. It's got this cool energy to it. It's cooler, literally cooler. It's really interesting, wild energy. That's good.

Dan, I end every show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? So maybe not that you're jealous of, but just a great thing that you saw. I am an enormous fan of Ben Stiller's Escape from Dannemora. Yeah, good one. I was blown away.

I heard that he took two years on it. Ben, if you're listening, it was a really well spent two years. It's an incredible piece. Patricia and Paul and Benicio, these performances are wonderful. The writing was great. It's a six, I think it's six or seven parts.

Did you see it? I did, yes. Like on the fifth or sixth episode when that thing happens and you go, oh my God, this was,

because it's structurally so brilliant to put that there and not in the front where it would have so differently affected the piece and I would have been

so proud to do that piece. I thought it was, I thought it was remarkable. That's a great answer. I had so much fun watching Velvet Buzzsaw, Dan. Thank you for doing this.

Thank you. I appreciate it was remarkable. That's a great answer. I had so much fun watching Velvet Buzzsaw, Dan. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much to Dan Gilroy, and thank you to you for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. Please tune in next week when we will have a brand new Oscar show that we've dubbed The Wifeapalooza. Amanda Dobbins and I finally saw The Wife, and we are ready to talk about it. We have so much to say. Hope we'll see you then next Tuesday.